[Opensim-dev] future rexviewer merger
Justin Clark-Casey
jjustincc at googlemail.com
Sat Dec 6 11:50:52 UTC 2008
Very much a +1 on Melanie's points about open discussion/engagement and small step-by-step patches (preferably
accompanying each other).
Melanie wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am not opposed to Rex technology. I'm not opposed to have it in
> OpenSim.
> I'm also not opposed to the people who I know (like you).
>
> What I am opposed to is the strategy of doing Windows-only
> development behind closed doors, without community (OpenSim dev)
> feedback, then presenting huge patches that are so brittle that they
> need to be applied without scrutiny or go stale.
>
> I would welcome Rex involvement if the Rex developers would join us
> in -dev, discuss things, and submit small patches that we can
> analyze and become familiar with, and modify so they don't conflict
> with the directions where OpenSim core wants to go.
>
> Fromn what I gather, Rex is intent on pushing both the login service
> and the viewer onto OpenSim. Including going to the point of
> breaking SL viewer compatibility. I am totally opposed to this. I
> would never endorse a single LL-Code based viewer as _the_ viewer,
> to the exclusion of any other, unless it's fully BSD licensed, e.g.
> developed from scratch.
>
> Also, I see anumber of abuse scenarios possible with the
> login/avatar service (commercial abuse), which is why I personally
> favor a different model. Specifically, to keep the avatar appearance
> data on the client and not on any server at all.
>
> That is what I can write out right now, there is a diffuse feeling
> of opposition in me, that I have yet to fathom.
>
> If you take it in small steps, I will be with you. Megapatches would
> be an issue for me.
>
> Melanie
>
>
> Ryan McDougall wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:35 PM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com> wrote:
>>> In my opinion, nothing. Nothing, that is, that we could not get
>>> without ReX involvement, and better.
>>>
>>> I would like to see OpenSim do an OpenSim solution to the mesh and
>>> asset/inventory system. I don't feel comfortable with the ReX
>>> solution, and even less comfortable with the parts of it they may
>>> hold close to the chest and spring on us later. I expect some
>>> unpalatable bits there. I would rather see us grow to that level in
>>> a true collaborative Open Source, Free environment, without being
>>> under the control of a single corporation.
>> Which corporation is that? Do you know anything about legal or funding
>> structure of reX? Do you know any of us personally?
>>
>> Its a lot to presume with little in the way of fact.
>>
>> How about instead of playing games you just ask me and I'll tell you.
>> If I had the faintest idea what your concern is I'd pre-emptively tell
>> you...
>>
>>> Melanie
>> Cheers,
>>
>>> Diva Canto wrote:
>>>> As Rex's extensions move closer to opensim (I'm in the group of people
>>>> who can't wait to see meshes and better graphics!), it will be good to
>>>> know more of the details of Rex. I'm not sure I understand completely
>>>> the use of "avatar" here, as we know that opensim uses it to denote a
>>>> pixelated carcass, that's neither a user nor an agent. And in Rex the
>>>> "avatar system" seems like it's more of a user storage/asset system.
>>>> Part of the user's storage/assets includes the pixelated carcass for
>>>> opensim-based worlds that care about that; but it includes all other
>>>> assets owned by the user.
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to compare existing efforts in opensim such as
>>>> the Hypergrid and the distributed asset server with Rex's avatar system.
>>>> Is it possible that
>>>> Hypergrid+DAS >= Rex's Avatar System ?
>>>> What else does the avatar system bring to the table?
>>>>
>>>> Crista
>>>>
>>>> Ryan McDougall wrote:
>>>>> Thank you for your addition to the discussion James, however I think
>>>>> Paul may have misunderstood reX architecture when made a private
>>>>> discussion public without consent.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reX avatar and authentication servers replace the User server and
>>>>> split it into Avatar storage for reX's own avatar system, and pure
>>>>> authentication of identity (the latter a bit like OpenID). The idea is
>>>>> to enable avatar portability: the ability to take the same
>>>>> meticulously created reX avatar from one grid to another.
>>>>>
>>>>> Afaik there is no analogue for stock OpenSim, and thus its difficult
>>>>> to merge until the reX team is better integrated with OpenSim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover I see room for improvement there, and have some ideas to
>>>>> change it further. It would be better for all parties if we did our
>>>>> prototyping first, and then worry about arguing who has the better
>>>>> concept or code later and the discussion is on objective ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM, James Stallings II
>>>>> <james.stallings at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL an ESPECIALLY good idea given they are the originators of the project
>>>>>> and maintainers of the core offering :D
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Jani Pirkola <jpirkola at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good idea to involve Opensim-dev, since they might have better ideas. I
>>>>>>> suppose Adam Frisby has already thought how or if to integrate avatar
>>>>>>> storage to Opensim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One reason for avatar appearance (or agent domain) handling being at the
>>>>>>> same place with the opensim is because in SL this was so. When we move
>>>>>>> towards free 3D Internet (free as libre), then we need to be able to take
>>>>>>> our avatar with us from grid to grid. This means that a grid must accept
>>>>>>> foreign agent domains - and eventually someone would like to run just the
>>>>>>> avatar service.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Jani
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <metaphorz at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am resending this since i think I sent a message from the wrong
>>>>>>>> email account...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ..........
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jani
>>>>>>>> I confess to not knowing the details of the rex viewer source, so please
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> my comments in that light. However, to me, it would seem more logical to
>>>>>>>> evolve the already existing UGAIM+R services of OpenSim rather than
>>>>>>>> inventing a separate way of handling region and user services. I feel
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> we may need more discussion with the opensim developers (which is
>>>>>>>> why I am cc'ing them). If I am missing something in the logic of your
>>>>>>>> revised
>>>>>>>> Rex viewer implementation strategy, please let me know, and thank your
>>>>>>>> team again for its excellent viewer capabilities.
>>>>>>>> In summary, if there is something about the way that opensim handles
>>>>>>>> avatars or authentication, then suggest fixes to this via opensim-dev.
>>>>>>>> Yes?
>>>>>>>> If the DB schema(s) need to change, then suggest changes or add new
>>>>>>>> tables.
>>>>>>>> -paul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jani Pirkola wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exactly, that is what we will do. However some of the services need to
>>>>>>>>> be able to run separately from the region or opensim server. The best
>>>>>>>>> example of this is the avatar storage and user authentication, which we feel
>>>>>>>>> needs to be its own entity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jani
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Presumably, the "services" aspect can be worked out as a region
>>>>>>>>> module
>>>>>>>>> for opensim? Either that, or the rex team would work with the
>>>>>>>>> opensim
>>>>>>>>> team on the opensim trunk to extend its service capabilities to be
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> consistent with rexviewer. That way, developers or users are free
>>>>>>>>> to update or
>>>>>>>>> re-build opensim whenever it suits them, and rexviewer would still
>>>>>>>>> function.
>>>>>>>>> -p
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Antti Ilomäki wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually that's not exactly the case, viewer modifications are
>>>>>>>>> important to us, but the avatar portability service (and
>>>>>>>>> participating
>>>>>>>>> in world server development as well) is another central feature
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> have. Our system currently allows full avatar portability
>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>> different worlds and even the inventory works, at least to an
>>>>>>>>> extent.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2008/12/5 Paul Fishwick <fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong, but i thought the point was to make Rex
>>>>>>>>> purely
>>>>>>>>> a visual client (viewer) and to let OpenSim handle the
>>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>> -paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- Dr. Paul A. Fishwick E-Mail: fishwick at cise.ufl.edu
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:fishwick at cise.ufl.edu>
>>>>>>>>> Dept. of Computer & Info Phone & FAX: (352) 392-1414
>>>>>>>>> Science and Engineering WWW:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
>>>>>>>>> University of Florida (PGP Key available at above WWW
>>>>>>>>> address)
>>>>>>>>> P. O. Box 116120
>>>>>>>>> 332 Bldg. CSE, Gainesville, FL 32611-6120
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ===================================
>>>>>> The wind
>>>>>> scours the earth for prayers
>>>>>> The night obscures them
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://osgrid.org
>>>>>> http://del.icio.us/SPQR
>>>>>> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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--
justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.wordpress.com
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