[Opensim-dev] Micropayment

Wed Nov 14 19:10:57 UTC 2007

No one is saying that we have any attention of creating a architecture  that doesn't allow a currency/payment system. What we are saying is that at this time we don't really know how such a system should work, but even more importantly, that we are aiming to provide a architecture that allows multiple ways of implementing a system. Anyone is welcome to implement a system of their choice. Just for a really useful system, its not a simple thing, so I think such a system should really be a separate "sister project". 

But the question if it was a sister project or part of them same project is really a small matter. The important thing is that whatever system was implemented would need to be done in a way that other systems could be wrote and used instead or that no currency system could be loaded/used. 

There are lots of uses of opensim that don't need any currency/payment system and we need to support them as much as we do uses that need one. And by support I don't mean it as a thing like "well it can be there but not used", really if no currency system is in use then the client shouldn't even display any balance. And any data should certainly not be part of the current opensim databases.

dan, 

I don't think anyone has said that every grid should have to implement their own system. Just that there might be a few different systems, that they could pick from. Or if they wanted then they could implement their own. Just like with physics engines/plugins. 

We have to remember that the core opensim project can't possible implement every possible solution by itself. And I think it would be a mistake to try to grow the core group to a size that could attempt such a thing. So the core opensim project/group focuses on one or two implementations and then other people/groups/companies do their own implementation if they need/want to. With money/payment, I'm really not even sure that the core group should implement any system. As I really think its a complex thing where so many different people will have their own requirements.

But saying that, I don't think any of us would turn away anyone who wanted to join us to make a system. My only requirement would be that it has to be a plugin/module. 

Aldon Hynes <Aldon.Hynes at Orient-Lodge.com> wrote: /d

I hear what you're saying, but it still sounds an awful lot to me like your
saying that because we cannot force all servers to be trusted servers we
should not include in the design any feature that depends on trusted
servers.  That does not sound like a wise decision to me.

That said, I recognize there are many issues to be addressed in moving
forward from release 0.40, many of which, some people may find much more
important or compelling.  However, that doesn't mean we should design an
architecture that does not allow for the use of currency or discourage
people who are interested in that part of the project from working on it.

Nor does it suggest that we should attempt to be all things to all possible
users.  Of course we can't implement something that will meet all possible
needs of all the possible users.  However, to use that as an excuse to not
seek an architecture that will meet the needs of many people seems
particularly short sighted in my mind.  Yes, LL may be changing the way they
handle currency going forward.  Perhaps we need to be involved in that
discussion instead of just throwing up our hands and walking away.

Aldon

-----Original Message-----
From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Dalien Talbot
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 1:22 PM
To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment

Aldon,

Let me illustrate the core of the issue. You are logging in to your
bank. What happens, is that the access point where you are connected
currently, forces the decryption of the data, is able to see all the
contents cleartext, then reencrypts the data and sends it to the bank.
Same on the way back.

Assuming that the access point is something set up by "someone on the
street" - what would be the maximum amount of money you would make the
transactions for, in this scheme ? (ow, nevermind, your banking
details are already known to the access point, so they'll take care of
the remaining funds :)

And we're not even at this stage with opensim. :)

/d

On Nov 14, 2007 6:47 PM, Aldon Hynes  wrote:
>
>
> I think the concern that Michael brings up is a little bit of a red
herring.
> Let me explain why.  To me, it sounds like he is saying that because some
> implementations of OpenSim grids would not be able to guarantee the
validity
> of the currency in their implementation, then we should not create
software
> that will make it possible in any implementation.  That sounds like a
> mistake to me.
>
> To me, the handling of ingrid currency is one of the more compelling
aspects
> of the Second Life and related experience.  It is worth noting that many
> MMORPGs have different ways of supporting currencies, and from an MMORPG
> perspective, it seems essential.  Likewise, from a business perspective in
> seems essential.  I could easily foresee myself running a very open grid
> where anyone could connect their regions and the currency in that grid
would
> be meaningless, while at the same time, running a much more tightly
> controlled grid where I could verify the region operators and feel
confident
> that the money in that grid has real meaning.  It seems to me as if
currency
> should be grid dependent and not region dependent.  My understand is that
> this is how the current SL viewers and SL servers behave, and my hope is
> that OpenSim will end up being essentially an alternative choice to the SL
> servers that behave essentially the same way and can interact with the
> existing SL viewers without the need for special mods to the viewers.
>
> So, I do hope that people rethink their view about currency and its role
in
> the OpenSim project.  I believe that not addressing it and making it an
> important part of the project will make the project much less compelling.
>
> Aldon
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Michael Wright
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:59 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment
>
> One of the main problems with money in opensim, is the whole thing of
having
> the Region servers involved, in any way, in transactions. Which is how the
> current system is set up.
>
> That is okay, if you always know that you can trust a region server; ie
you
> have a closed grid where every region server on that grid is trusted. This
> is how LL can use the current system. As they control the servers, they
> "know"  how each region server will behave. But with a open grid where
other
> people can connect their region servers, then we can no longer trust a
> region, like the current system expects. Anyone, could have changed some
> code on their server to do fake transactions or various other things.
>
> So the general opinion is that money should be something like a direct
> client to transaction server approach, with messages saying the
transaction
> has been completed sent to the region server if required. And that will
need
> changes to the client.
>
> So at least at this point, currency is not part of the opensim project. I
> generally, don't think it will ever really be part of the core, as
different
> uses could have their own requirements. And some uses, just won't require
> any in-world currency. So its likely that such systems will be
> add-ons/modules. But even for those its really to early.
>
> Aldon Hynes  wrote:
>
> Ezekiel, Sean,
>
>    I do hope I'm not being dismissed as a 'marketing guy'.  I've been
trying
> to keep the discussion of how finances are handled in OpenSim on a
technical
> level.  I initially brought it up in terms of how we handle authentication
> as a response to a suggestion of dealing with anonymous users.  As we
looked
> more closely at it, I tried to focus particularly on how money is handle
in
> scripts since that seems to be the real key do commerce in Second Life and
> hence is likely to be key in OpenSim as well.
>
>    When I connect to my OpenSim grid, I see that I have 1000 dollars.
I've
> looked at the database schema, and I don't see where that is stored.  It
> would seem as if it ought to be in the users table.  However, I don't know
> enough about the entity relationships to know if it would be better off in
> one of the other folders.  In addition, I'm not well enough acquainted
with
> the code, or the data abstraction layer at this point, to have a good view
> of how to approach modifying the schema.
>
>    I also scanned through the code, but I couldn't find the section of
code
> where the number of dollars that a user has is communicated back and forth
> between the server to the client.
>
>    All of that said, I think Ezekiel is right.  I've worked on too many
> projects in the past were an important part of functionality is not
> considered early on and it becomes a mess trying to shoehorn that
> functionality in later.  In my mind, the currency component is one of
those
> pieces of functionality I would hate to see shoehorned in at the last
> minute.
>
>    So, I do hope that we maintain a good threat about the currency and not
> simply dismiss it because of potential non-technical issues.
>
> Aldon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of
> ezekiel at daelindor.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:03 AM
> To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment
>
>
> Sean,
>
> you are absolutely right. The technical discussion should not be drowned
by
> enhancement requests from the 'marketing guys'.
>
> However, while you dev guys are working hard to get the core up to speed,
> someone must plan ahead to add the features that make this whole venture a
> success.
>
> If we discuss the money and usability stuff in a separate thread, how do
we
> make sure that we get heard and you don't end up with an excellent
> implementation of an SL clone - minus the hipe ?
>
> Ezekiel
>
>
> >I think that in world Money is one of those places where the OpenSim
> >grid runners are going to need to provide code appropriate to their
> >situation.  Running a sim with no money is easy.  Money opens up all
> >sorts of other non technical issues: privacy laws, taxes, refunds, etc.
>
> >It would be nice to avoid drowning out the technical conversation on
> >list with lots of money pontificating.
>
> >That being said, patches are always welcomed. :)
>
> >Sean Dague_______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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