[Opensim-dev] Micropayment

Wed Nov 14 17:47:48 UTC 2007

I think the concern that Michael brings up is a little bit of a red herring.
Let me explain why.  To me, it sounds like he is saying that because some
implementations of OpenSim grids would not be able to guarantee the validity
of the currency in their implementation, then we should not create software
that will make it possible in any implementation.  That sounds like a
mistake to me.

To me, the handling of ingrid currency is one of the more compelling aspects
of the Second Life and related experience.  It is worth noting that many
MMORPGs have different ways of supporting currencies, and from an MMORPG
perspective, it seems essential.  Likewise, from a business perspective in
seems essential.  I could easily foresee myself running a very open grid
where anyone could connect their regions and the currency in that grid would
be meaningless, while at the same time, running a much more tightly
controlled grid where I could verify the region operators and feel confident
that the money in that grid has real meaning.  It seems to me as if currency
should be grid dependent and not region dependent.  My understand is that
this is how the current SL viewers and SL servers behave, and my hope is
that OpenSim will end up being essentially an alternative choice to the SL
servers that behave essentially the same way and can interact with the
existing SL viewers without the need for special mods to the viewers.

So, I do hope that people rethink their view about currency and its role in
the OpenSim project.  I believe that not addressing it and making it an
important part of the project will make the project much less compelling.

Aldon

  -----Original Message-----
  From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of Michael Wright
  Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 11:59 AM
  To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
  Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment

  One of the main problems with money in opensim, is the whole thing of
having the Region servers involved, in any way, in transactions. Which is
how the current system is set up.

  That is okay, if you always know that you can trust a region server; ie
you have a closed grid where every region server on that grid is trusted.
This is how LL can use the current system. As they control the servers, they
"know"  how each region server will behave. But with a open grid where other
people can connect their region servers, then we can no longer trust a
region, like the current system expects. Anyone, could have changed some
code on their server to do fake transactions or various other things.

  So the general opinion is that money should be something like a direct
client to transaction server approach, with messages saying the transaction
has been completed sent to the region server if required. And that will need
changes to the client.

  So at least at this point, currency is not part of the opensim project. I
generally, don't think it will ever really be part of the core, as different
uses could have their own requirements. And some uses, just won't require
any in-world currency. So its likely that such systems will be
add-ons/modules. But even for those its really to early.

  Aldon Hynes <Aldon.Hynes at Orient-Lodge.com> wrote:
    Ezekiel, Sean,

       I do hope I'm not being dismissed as a 'marketing guy'.  I've been
trying to keep the discussion of how finances are handled in OpenSim on a
technical level.  I initially brought it up in terms of how we handle
authentication as a response to a suggestion of dealing with anonymous
users.  As we looked more closely at it, I tried to focus particularly on
how money is handle in scripts since that seems to be the real key do
commerce in Second Life and hence is likely to be key in OpenSim as well.

       When I connect to my OpenSim grid, I see that I have 1000 dollars.
I've looked at the database schema, and I don't see where that is stored.
It would seem as if it ought to be in the users table.  However, I don't
know enough about the entity relationships to know if it would be better off
in one of the other folders.  In addition, I'm not well enough acquainted
with the code, or the data abstraction layer at this point, to have a good
view of how to approach modifying the schema.

       I also scanned through the code, but I couldn't find the section of
code where the number of dollars that a user has is communicated back and
forth between the server to the client.

       All of that said, I think Ezekiel is right.  I've worked on too many
projects in the past were an important part of functionality is not
considered early on and it becomes a mess trying to shoehorn that
functionality in later.  In my mind, the currency component is one of those
pieces of functionality I would hate to see shoehorned in at the last
minute.

       So, I do hope that we maintain a good threat about the currency and
not simply dismiss it because of potential non-technical issues.

    Aldon
      -----Original Message-----
      From: opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de]On Behalf Of
ezekiel at daelindor.com
      Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 5:03 AM
      To: opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
      Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Micropayment

      Sean,

      you are absolutely right. The technical discussion should not be
drowned by enhancement requests from the 'marketing guys'.

      However, while you dev guys are working hard to get the core up to
speed, someone must plan ahead to add the features that make this whole
venture a success.

      If we discuss the money and usability stuff in a separate thread, how
do we make sure that we get heard and you don't end up with an excellent
implementation of an SL clone - minus the hipe ?

      Ezekiel

      >I think that in world Money is one of those places where the OpenSim
      >grid runners are going to need to provide code appropriate to their
      >situation.  Running a sim with no money is easy.  Money opens up all
      >sorts of other non technical issues: privacy laws, taxes, refunds,
etc.

      >It would be nice to avoid drowning out the technical conversation on
      >list with lots of money pontificating.

      >That being said, patches are always welcomed. :)

      >Sean Dague
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