Chat log from the meeting on 2022-08-30

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[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:04] Ludo.Davis Hi Andrew
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: welcome arielle AO
[11:05] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew Hi Ubit
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: hi everyone
[11:06] Ludo.Davis Hi
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: And Janie, Jagga, Shelby and Vincent
[11:06] Jagga Meredith: hi
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: Jamie^
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ludo
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: ( and andrew's cat =
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: not seeing the cat
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: You won't see my cat any time soon. She is sleeping on my bed.
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: you can bring the avatar cat
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: you mean keeping the bed safe until your return
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: ofc when you do she may tell, go away the bed is mine...
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: There has been a lot more activity in the OpenSim code base this past week. One change was so good it had line repeated multiple times in the commit message. :)
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester Few commits this week, mostly some adjustments to make code a bit more sane here and there. Biggest change was to handling of http requests in scripts.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: well in fact not even a opensim change lol
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester Some new toys to play with
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Many of the changes mention libomv.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: we do have a repo at github
[11:10] Arielle Popstar: wwhat are useless changes?
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: i activated some of its actions ( still very crude) so it does compile the code also
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: it does it on last mono and with .netframework 4.8 target
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: also lets us get that last build
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: sadly to update the github actions one needs to push them to the same repo
[11:12] Vincent.Sylvester Currently doesn't run tests so any regression testing still up to Jenkins for now
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, "useless changes" are usually ones that don't change the logic but may shave a tiny bit of time here and there. Sometimes they may be just to make the code easier to read.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: so.. ofc tons of commits with same name, fixing my types and bad tries
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: thx Andrew
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well this ones made it harder to read
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: bc where abotu adding the use of c# pointers ( so the unsafe )
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Commit edc90fd434 repeated "Update msbuild48.yml" 12 times.
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeha thats github things
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: is that like trial and error?
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: is there other way? :p
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: heh
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: didnt there used to be a beta FS download link here?
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: also did add a few more things to llGetObjectDetails
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: updating it
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: no, fs betas are not public
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: well they used to have a link here
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: don't thing we had ..
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: but ok
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester Rebuilt the script syntax as well so that's up to date as well which is useful
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: the last official release is  having issues
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: well they are on a pre release of next one already
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: used to be right in front of the Meeting chat prim on the counter there
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm using the last release for Linux and haven't noticed any issues so far.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: public const int OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL = 41;
        public const int OBJECT_MATERIAL = 42;
        public const int OBJECT_MASS = 43;
        public const int OBJECT_TEXT = 44;
        public const int OBJECT_REZ_TIME = 45;
        public const int OBJECT_LINK_NUMBER = 46;
        public const int OBJECT_SCALE = 47;
        public const int OBJECT_TEXT_COLOR = 48;
        public const int OBJECT_TEXT_ALPHA = 49;
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: this are the added things to llgetobjectparameters
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: seeing it not releasing avatar animations forcing me to use stop avatar animations and revoke permissions
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: redundant things most, but well to keep a bit in sync with ll lsl on that
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: i only use the default anims, do noticed no issues
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: so..
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Same here.
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: so no ao ?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov:
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: that is the repo
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, no. I don't use the one in the viewer nor one in world.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: also added similar things to my own, where libopenmetaverse lives
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: how do you test your code contributions then?
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: why would i do that? they are perfect!
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: trial and error remember :p
[11:22] Ubit Umarov:
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't contributed code to FS and I have never made a change to the OS code base related to animations.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: the repos on bitbucket to have al the things..
[11:22] Ubit Umarov:
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester Spread around everywhere for redundancy
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: ao's are scripting  intensive
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yes lag intensive
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: noone wants to walk around like a noob
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: you called andrew a noo?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of AOs were made in SL and they weren't done properly.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: but even ll knows how bad they are, did try to make the server side ones..
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: but no one seems to use, guess because more limited
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: well if they had made better default walks stands and sits, people would use them
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: server side has a fixed set of avatar states, that do not incluse swim for example
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: but s/l prefers creators to make them then they having to do any work in updating animations, avatars etc
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: viewers take the fly state and compare water level to change to swim
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: wasnt there talk at one point of updating the default avatar hgere ?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i also stopped creating assets for new inventory items
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, there was work being done on Ruth / Roth avatars.
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: yes but they werent  intended to be put as default
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: like the ruth
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: system avatars
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: so, scripts and notecards set the item asset to shared assets
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: others just set to nothing
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: ie the ones most of you are wearing :)
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: viewers do pre upload assets for many, sadly
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: so those are they where
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: new gestures are the ones i seen now set to uuid zero
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: this will save a lot of useless garbage assets creation on grids
[11:30] Vincent.Sylvester Hard drives everywhere rejoice in glee over that I hear
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: petty viewers keep uploadind new clothes, bodies etc
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: also all new assets with same data
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: we could just set them all to shared assets like notecars and scripts now
[11:32] Vincent.Sylvester It's not even just the asset servers that have to deal with the load, I got an IAR the other day, 56GB in size, with nearly a third of all the assets within already existing locally, well hash of the data being the same
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well think those where the code changes
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: back on .8.2 iars used to be like a 1 or 2 gb now they up to 10GB for same sized invemntory
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester Was something in there about terse updates as well
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: plus the "useless ones" abotu saving a few ns of cpu time here and there
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yeah terse updates, move code to unsafe pointers
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: unsafe in ms .net terminology ofc
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester Gave me flashbacks to the viewer object cache incident when I read the commit message xD
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: hat they call unsafe, is just the normal on c++ and other languages
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester Whatever new LL bug we shall discover this week heh
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: so fun how ms keeps turning c# the Wrong tool or any job
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: (not) fun
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester After the whole rollback and then going back to mainline I haven't seen another TryParse related crash, so whatever combination of mono and libomv updates seems to have fixed that. Still gonna track that for a while longer though
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: so what news abotu opensim do oyu have?
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: well i see a lot of things that dont work here
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: you looking for s/l bugs but meanwhile we have stuff that simply doesnt work
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I thought we've mostly covered any news.
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: like teleport history links that  are useless  foor getting  back
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: maps not opening  on show on map
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: that is viewer side
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: many still fail on HG
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: it is but it is dependent on the server code to trigger it properly
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: not really
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: server keeps no history
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: it fails more now then it used to though the viewer works fine in s/l
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that is viewer side
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and also has issues with large regions
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: that says it is server side here
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: Beq and Rye made some improvements not long ago
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: do you coordinate with Beq  to resolve some of these things?
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: many viewers still have wrong math with region handles etc
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if you are using FS then you are talking about two different versions of viewer.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: one ocasions did yes
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: i use the opensim version for both s/l and here
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: even made fs patch lol
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well not a formal patch
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: details
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: the hop protocol also still not that reliable
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: they vbiewer devbs sit with the lindens tyo discuss these things
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: who even uses the hop
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but well tons of thigns jsut fail with HG
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: other then FS?
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: fs
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: and they shouldnt and didnt used to as much
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: i see increasing problems with HG
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: though the jumps are still good
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: most issues are still around large regions and HG
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: well so bugs
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: in Opensim
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and viewer side
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I find the FS viewer for SL won't even remember my password.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: we have opernsim specific viewers and several of the vierwer devs are interested in maintaining compatibility with us
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: opensim can't detect if a viewer sends the wrong pair (handle, offset )
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: same issue with me Andrew
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: on just one account
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: are you updating them on changes that might change behaviour in the viewer?
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: but as i said not that long ago (months Beq and Rye made a few more fixes
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: our tp code is stable for hm years?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: wel the main code
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: tp maybe yes but there is also the LM's and other feratures which arent
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: features
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: most server side handle/offset global coords issues where fixes on 0.9.x
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: early 0.9x
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: lm similar issues..
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: sdo what broke?
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: in fact to avoid some issues, server does ignore data sent by viewers on lms
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: dunno
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: ok so a opensim issue
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: you are the one telling it is brokne
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I have seen TPs fail when I accept a teleport offer from someone. The TP progress bar gets stuck part way. Don't know if that is related to issues in FS, server side, or both.
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: there is noting on mantis
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: well are you testing that stuff Ubit?
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: yes same Andrew
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: though happens in s/l too
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: teleports can fail bc a ton a reasons
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester Andrew, usually that fixes itself after a reboot, haven't had that fail reliably yet
[11:51] Ludo.Davis I had some issue like that but I think it come from the region server
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: like  network issues
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: faild dns
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Ubit
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: openism is not a nice closed controled thing like sl
[11:52] Ludo.Davis Issue is linked to the region setup
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester Teleports do run some async things too, if they get lost somewhere you get random failures on retry it then just works fine
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: except a few grids with a infrasture compared to sl
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: no but cant just wash hands of it  and blame network or viewer every time
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: lie kitely, etc
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: can't expect tps to wokr 100% of time on home regiosn
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: or regions spread all over the world like osgrid
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: and I dont  and i am not really even on about the tp fails but the mess with LM's
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: what is the mantis issue about that lms problem?
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: you already know and admitted there are problems with the HG and teleport history
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yes, viewer side
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: it need  something to account for HG then
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: and it used to work
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: something in Opensim has changed
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: also told some fixed by beq and rye, code in fs and alch, etc
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester Did also fix the handles recently and had some code done to get hop working a little bit better
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: so that needs changes by the viewers Vincent?
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I know of something else that "used to work" but no one else seems to have either noticed or think it an issue to worry about. I haven't determined if the issue is viewer side or server side.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i also did add more information on teleports
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: to make easy for viewers to know what grid they are on, etc
[11:57] Vincent.Sylvester FS did adjust hop as well to work more reliably, but with the setups of grids out there it's hard to get it working in all cases
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: teleports are very sentive things
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: a ton of things neet to work fine for them to happen
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: does the viewer automatically convert an HG map search to a hop?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: should ask that to viewer devs :p
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: but ofc.. at least do try
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: do all the tpv viewers use the hop protocol?
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: i dont use all tpvs viewers, only a few
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: the ones you do then?
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: of the ones i use, think only fs
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Probably not. Some TPVs haven't had their code updated in a long time.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: well i basicly only use fs, and test a few others
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: singu and alch have other protocol
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: xsomething
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: do you go to the TPV meetings in s/l Ubit?
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: they are once per monht
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: oh they changed from bi weekly?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: go now and then, and see the videos
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: but those are SL things.. not opensim
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: do yuou speak with beq regular?
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: now all mor eon the new renderinf changes etc
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well the new fs is really faster
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: yes seeing that
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: with the ll changes to rendering
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Before we continue on the viewer issues, is there anyone else here waiting to ask a question or make a comment?
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: guess just me whining
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: all good in kitely?
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks waits for Vincent to finish typing something.
[12:06] Vincent.Sylvester Teleport history has been a trouble maker for a while now. If there are reproducible issues then it should be easy to resolve if reports are made outlining what the intended behavior is. We haven't seen such reports on mantis, but it's mostly a viewer side thing anyways
[12:06] Vincent.Sylvester Landmarks have all manners of broken data on them, mostly because of age and changes to OpenSim breaking them
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: it is 100% viewer side
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: heh
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: servers have nothing to do with it
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: tp history i mean
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: the server must store the history though
[12:07] Vincent.Sylvester Always attempts made to move forward with things so old data has a tendency to just go bad when it sees fixes to OpenSim
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, why should the server store TP history?
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: well othgerwise it would be found in the data  stufgf
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: stuff
[12:07] Vincent.Sylvester There is no teleport history on OpenSim, it only knows where you are or where you have gone, what happens after that is out of its range
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: need a spell checker too :)
[12:08] Vincent.Sylvester Once one grid hands you off you are gone for that grid until you return
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: yah that sucks too]
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: The only TP history I'm aware of is the messages in the chat window saying I TPed from some place.
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: why do offline messages from the HG not get stored?
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: a viewer message
[12:09] Vincent.Sylvester If the entire system knew where you were last I could log back into here when I select Last Location on the login screen, but it puts me back onto my home region, cause that's where I was last on it
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: look under World>teleport history
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: last location on login is also viewer side
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: ALT+H
[12:10] Ludo.Davis C:\Users\Ludo\AppData\Roaming\Firestorm_x64\ludo_davis.sheikah\teleport_history.txt
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: take any of those LM histories and r-click and select show on map
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: Ahh thank you Ludo
[12:11] Ludo.Davis No worries
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: mine working fine
[12:12] Vincent.Sylvester The entries in that file are global positions i.e. handles, which we recently did fix up a bit to work better so that might now work
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: oh ok
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: weba
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: duhh did tp to one
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:12] Vincent.Sylvester The problem otherwise is down to what the viewer thinks it needs to enter, especially on larger regions that might fail as it assumes regular sizes
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: do you have an hypergrid one?
[12:13] Ludo.Davis Work with HG on my side
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Clicking an entry in World-> TP history and selecting Show on map seems to be working fine.
[12:13] Ludo.Davis But map don't show picture. Expected I think
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: why i we need to repeat that hg fails a lot on viewers history ?
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: ok, i'll start bugging beq
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: many don't even had HG code on history
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: their history knows nothing abotu hg
[12:14] Vincent.Sylvester If you notice in that file there is no information on the grid the link is from, just the position
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: possilbe not even recent fs
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: bc that is "2 much opensim" for viewer devs to waste time on
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: doesnt beq have an opensim grid?
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I'd say you are right. I found a rare HG TP in my history and "show on map" says invalid location.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: they never did add HG to history
[12:16] Vincent.Sylvester If there is a manually set hyperlink it might work actually since that's a fixed coordinate
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: not sure abotu recent changes..
[12:16] Vincent.Sylvester But we randomly assign them each time so they won't stick
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: but sure not on any tpv dev priority
[12:17] Vincent.Sylvester Now adding the grid url to that you are in the same territory of the hop link issue with grids using split gatekeeper and login service urls
[12:17] Vincent.Sylvester So even if that gets added chances it still doesn't work right all the time
[12:18] Vincent.Sylvester HG is a mess with all the different setups so that you can get places is priority still, convenience is mostly viewer side anyways
[12:18] Vincent.Sylvester Most reliable way remains the World Map
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: when i do hg i mostly only to tp home
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: everything else ( otthe than recent lms) will most likely fail
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: to home and recent lms should work
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: tp
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: well assuming you did set home :)
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: think you have to or be more fails
[12:20] Vincent.Sylvester Ubit drags me around places from time to time and so far even on my overly complicated testing setup that seems to work fine, surprisingly
[12:20] Vincent.Sylvester Lot more stable than it used to be some years ago
[12:21] Vincent.Sylvester No more blood sacrifice needed for the second teleport to work
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: lol
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: and well network issues keep poping up
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: lbsa ISP kept having a broken router kiiling all net
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: another isp in EU is nice for EU ppl, but usa ppl has more problems..
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: contabo
[12:24] Vincent.Sylvester North American hardware remains problematic or very expensive, strange culture difference that
[12:24] Jagga Meredith: Rogers Canada sent out a corrupt routing table.  Every router forgot every other router.  Took them nearly 24 hours to fix
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: remember than opensim network packets need to wait for all twitch, youtube, facebook etc to pass first
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: oh is that what that outage was about?
[12:25] Jagga Meredith: yup
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: glad I had my cell data plan
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: on Telus
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the info. I never heard them say what was the cause of their problems. Interesting how routing tables affected both Internet and cell phone services.
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: it is all packets now
[12:26] Vincent.Sylvester Glorified wifi routers those things
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: some cells use same lines
[12:27] Selby.Evans bye all
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, a lot of the "smart" cell phones have access to all sorts of network related services.
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby.
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans
[12:27] Ludo.Davis I'm going too. Take care everyone
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost half past the hour. I need to be going soon.
[12:28] Ludo.Davis Bye
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: TC Ludo
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye Ludo.
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: time for a late lunch for me
[12:28] Jagga Meredith: moving computers around.  need to go buy cabling
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: ok also need go rl
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: cya around
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we lose many other people I'll call this meeting to a close.
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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