Chat log from the meeting on 2021-03-02

[11:01] Ubit Umarov: well can't say the same.. headache etc..
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello Andrew!
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there was almost a doppler effect as you swoshed by, haha
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: almost skiped this
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Who swooshed?
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that's not good Ubit
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you swooshed
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Oh, probably the tail end of my teleport tone swosh
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry to hear about your headache, Ubit. On the bright side at least it isn't Covid. :)
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: well who knows :p
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: but hope not
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's hope not
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: so whats new with opensim ?
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: True. They have said so many things can be a symptom of Covid my mother got a little worried the day I woke up with a tickle in the back of my throat that I had most of the day.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have stopped worrying about it
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I don't even listen to the radio except to catch the weather forecast in the morning.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: i would not bother with weather forecast here.. they are wrong most the time
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: still
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much in the way of news re: OpenSim this week. Only one code change hit master and that was a change related to mantis #8870.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't even do that. Raido forecasts are overrated compared to the web based ones
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Radio*
[11:07] Bill Blight: I worry about it as much as a I worry about a terrorist attack, not much I can do about either ..
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: The station I listen to has a weather guarantee. If they are off by more than 3 degrees then someone gets to win some money. They put an extra $100 in every day they meet their guaranteed temp.
[11:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: yeah when i changed a bit the llhttprequest service i left it not that good for multi region per instance, fixed that
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i may change it again lol
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Many places in Norway can have 3 seasons on a day
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: not happy with how we do http but well
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so not easy to give any weather guarantee
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in a day
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: In California we have only two seasons. Fire season and drought season.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: They only do that for the high temperature of the day.
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the city of Bergen had a max of 11 C and a min of -11 C yesterday
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: nice simetry
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: must be the way God planned it :-)
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, of course. Code can always be changed. How much would the llhttprequest service need to be changed so you would be happy with it?
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: hmm im very hard to be happy with anything lol
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: its its threading model all over
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: and how it eats resources for no good reason
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. There is what you can do easily so some block of code isn't as much of a dog's breakfast as when you start cleaning it up then there is what you would really like to do with it which can take a lot more work and time to accomplish.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well http..
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: it also has added latency issues
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: not that much and not a biggy on scripts
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: also don't like its imp in files
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I had the dubious pleasure of upgrading a grid from NaniSim to 0.9.2 Yeti. I eventually got most things to work, but for some reason all the profiles ar blank, and say something about unable to acces them. I looked in the MySQL database, and I see the profile text entries. What did I do wrong to prevent profiles from working? Where do I look to diagnose and fix this?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: same part of scripts support, then calling things placed on core that have no other use, even called script*
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: no idea :)
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: using core profiles?
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: kayaker, the first thing I would do is compare the structure of the database tables used between the two versions of grid software. Make sure you database connection string is correct.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: NaniSim is that a actual thing?
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, First time I'm hearing of it.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Popstar has talked about it
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: That is what people called LaNani's branch of OpenSim. It is dying out, fewer and fewer people are using it.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it was almost impossible to figure out what was changed and not
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, isn't it under version control?
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kayaker have you tried comparing your db records of a profile not working and one that works?
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: possibly, but I have never found any repository
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I assume it is private
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Not yet, although I don't have my own Robust working, I run all my regions under OSGrid.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: think it never had one, just a bunch of source files
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: That's just asking for trouble.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it appeared to be a mess
[11:21] Bill Blight: she provided only the edited files on her site, no patches, so was a pain in the ass ..
[11:22] Bill Blight: even doing a diff did not really work unless you compared it against an way older branch, then well still did you no good really
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: think a viewer does similar
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: cool vl ?
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, which version of Profile system does NaniSim use and which one are you using in OS?
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he does the same Ubit
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well i do see profiles working here
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: I'm using the default one, I didn't know there was more than one!
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: there are several profile modules
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, there is the third-party OpenSimProfiles module that I maintain and there is the core Profiles module built-in to OS.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: core one wasn't that good
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well guess not even there at some point
[11:23] Bill Blight: there is also the xml rpc one
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: but think osg is using core now
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: config issue?
[11:24] Bill Blight: there is also several modified ones for various web front ends
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, the PHP files of the module I maintain uses xmlrpc.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Which version of profiles has all the text in the robust database?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: "I'm a citizen of the Metaverse, you will find me on many grids..."
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Of course it works here!
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ohh nice hat at rl also
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: here osgrid or here region? :)
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, probably core profiles but other profile modules could put them in the Robust DB if configured that way.
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: In the about box, I get this message: 'Profile not available at this time. User may still be unknown to this grid'
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: (on the grid with the bad config)
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: My first thought is to check the DB connection string.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah sounds like config issue
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: When setting up a new grid checking DB connection strings and checking DB permissions are one of the first things to do to locate issues. OS does a poor job of telling you that your problems are due to issues accessing a DB table.
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: So many other things are working, I would think the DB must be connected.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol
[11:29] Bill Blight: also with profiles you can very easily miss enabling or enable the wrong version ..
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually results in massive cosole spew
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: console*
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: Groups V2, for example is working. Oh, and I see my groups in the profile, but not "about" or my photo.
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, depends on which profiles system you are using. Some may use an existing connection string. Some you need to configure the connection separately.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: groups do come from groups service not profile :)
[11:30] Bill Blight: worse is you can have profiles half enabled on both versions ... LOL
[11:30] Bill Blight: *multiple versions
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: Well, that gives me some ideas where to look. Thanks everyone!
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, if your Profile set up doesn't require a URL to a web page you are most likely using core profiles.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: btw if anyone using fs beta, its displaynames is broken
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: hmm need check that on dayturn also gaivn
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: something ll did
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I always have the viewer configured to not show displaynames.
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Displaynames? What's that? (I thought they never worked in OpenSim)
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did recently?
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: the same service use used to get the avatars names
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: is used
[11:34] Bill Blight: they don't work in core opensim no, but has a lot of other hooks to other places
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: dunno
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: beq fixed it last weekend
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't recall having taken any LL changes lately affecting displaynames
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but will check
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: after teleports it was always asking the the previus region
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: never current one
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: fun did work at sl..
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: vodoo
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't update my copy of FS often so the problem may have occurred in a version after my last update.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: 4.12 is as bad as before
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there isn't an update of FS often :-)
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: fails o n ocasions
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they talked about getting back to 3 month release schedula
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: yeah they did
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still on a 6.4.11 nightly
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: lol release is 4.12 andrew
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I did say I don't update my viewer very often. I rarely notice any difference from one version/release to another.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: well no idea she told me it was a ll change gavin.Hird
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: 4.12.62, releases hve been coming out so often the last few digits matter!
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I gues that is why 4.11 nightly does not update any more...
[11:38] Bill Blight: Display names are working for avatars in the latest one, on my grid, but NPC names seem to either not update or take forever ...
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: you can use winngridproxy to see whew viewer askes
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL does a lot of changes Ubit ;-)
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: that is the old ethernal issue Bill
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: during TPs they do ask to wrong region
[11:39] Bill Blight: the OpenSource director at LL quit .. so the future of the viewer code is kind of in limbo, to be honest
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: he jsut retired Bill
[11:39] Kayaker Magic: LL has been in a kind of limbo for a while.
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: That is going to be interesting Bill
[11:39] Bill Blight: quit/retired, effect is the same to us
[11:39] Bill Blight: "Was not replaced" is the key
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and guess as more all Dev boss now
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably go an offer he could not refuse
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: got*
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: nahh seems was tru retirement
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well ll and others made nice goodbye parties
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: very nice..
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Any HR Dept worth a grain of salt can make it look like true retirement
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: a bit emotive
[11:41] Bill Blight: yeah but they did not fill his position at last read, which is problematic for the future of opensource releases, when someone finally notices the automatic code updates to the repos
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the video from his farewell interview is recommended viewing
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: The person didn't hand over the reins to someone else to continue with the OpenSource side of development?
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: one on that vidoe you shown me gavin.Hird
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: Oh? You have a URL to that farewell interview?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: wel it was about current ll things.. the farwell was part of it
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NANshUiTOY&feature=emb_logo
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: thanxs!
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The thing about Oz is he has been a complete bone-head about a mobile viewer and the Mac viewer
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so not a big miss if you ask me
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: So things could get better if they hire a Mac user to replace him!
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: He was a Mac user
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it got placed on his desk
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think he hated it
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: OK, then replace him with a Mac lover.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( quiet understandalbe .. )
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: LOL, I am not a fan myself....
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they might already have missed the train
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I've not touched a Mac since the original one when it first came out. It was an interesting machine.
[11:45] Bill Blight would be surprised if they actually replace him, and not just start letting the opensource side die off,
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: + it depends on if the new owners are willing to take the investment of catching up now
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: i did touch a friends one
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: the power socket had cameout with the cable :)
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think they want to get rid off all TVP devs
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: bad failed soldering at manufacture
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: Ohh im like Lois something i did fix a mac!!
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has been apparent for a whiel if you ask me
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 whispers: while*
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: (louis rossmann is a youtubber that repairs macs)
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Dropping support for TPVs will not help them. They already (mostly?) dropped support for Linux in the viewer they make available.
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can send you a Mac that died by coffee you can try and fix Ubit :-))
[11:48] Bill Blight: Yeah they don't care for TPV's and when they start implementing their own in house render engine it is pretty much all over for TPV's
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, which version of Mac?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: SL main viewer is a tpv
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is a Mac Pro 2013 (socalled trash can)
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, I don't think they will open source the renderer
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, that round cylindrical beastie. Only seen them in YouTube videos.
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: Ohh you killed that mac again ??
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hence the trashcan moniker
[11:49] Bill Blight: Last time I talked to anyone in the know over at LL, they still hate the fact that Firestorm gets so much traction ..
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, no
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I still have the killed one
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: well guess a fix on that means replacing a ton of chips
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: loius as a coffe fix video really :)
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I saw a tear down of one of them. Don't remember how much there is in there in the way of proprietary parts that are unobtainium.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Bill, which is why they have been on a release storm forbidding FS to release before they do, making for a massive catch up
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure there is a lot of proprietary components
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standard ECC RAM, SSD, Xeon processor, AMD graphics
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: If LL was truly interested in OpenSource it would be a two way street with them getting changes/fixes from people outside of LL.
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: USB, thunderbolt 2
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: there are more and more Gavin.Hird
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the new machines, yes Ubit
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: some just variants of normal ones made by same manufact just for apple
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that generation much
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: New Macs, unobtainium all the way through....
[11:53] Bill Blight: Ok got to bail, time to go graze for food ... catch you all later
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: like the psu management chips, etc
[11:53] Bill Blight waves bye
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: Bye Bill!
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: cya Bill
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: good to see you here :)
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can install bog standard Windows on it, so it can't be that different
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Bill
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Yes, it might run Wincows, but if the CPU dies, you cannot buy a replacement.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like I have done on another Mac to test the Windows viewer
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: apple hates others repairing macs
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure you can on that machine
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: they want to sell new macs..
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standard socketed Xeon
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes. Louis Rossmann talks about that often.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: The new M1 macs have a Xeon socket???
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I talked about the Mac Pro
[11:55] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: they hate it and you can't do anything to new macs
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and yes the current Mac Pro has that too
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, the problem may be isolated to just a board or two unless it got a real shower of coffee.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the new M1s are a completely different beast
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: andrew some macs have a high voltage line just next to a 3v3 one
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has bee identified to be two boards by the Apple repair center
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: 0.5mm "just"
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: We are close to the top of the hour. Any other questions/comments re: OpenSim before we end todays gathering?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: a short there means a ton of dead chips
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: ram, etc etc
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( louis shows that on one coffe repair )
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the parts that arre dead cost about $700 on Ebay
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: without the CPU
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, good they nailed it down to just two. Let's hope those two boards don't have anything proprietary on them that has died.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov whispers: wel and replacing those parts is not easy :)
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to swap them completely
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: just see louis hot air work on that :)
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, it is surface mount and some chips require hot air guns to use in repairing them.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: i can say.. not as easy as it looks :)
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Still working on a new viewer build
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: without EEP
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yak!
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: i didn't even asked lol
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, tx.Oh.
[11:59] tx.0h @tinkerland.icf.de:8002: huhu
[12:00] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Thanks everybody enjoyed the company
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: tx is very good arriving and the end :)
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: tx.0h, FYI, this gathering starts at 11am grid time.
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Last call for last minute questions/comments before we wrap up todays meeting.
[12:01] tx.0h @tinkerland.icf.de:8002: oh. well.. i'm late?
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. I'm just about to close the meeting.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it seems
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: yeah 1 hour :)
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone typing so I will say this gathering is done and dusted.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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