Chat log from the meeting on 2019-09-24

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[10:49] Ubit Umarov: sent a few emails on opensim-dev, for viewer devs :)
[10:50] Ubit Umarov: assuming that one other that cinder that already answer to one, does read it :)
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: hi gavin seen my emails on opensim-dev ?
[10:57] Gavin.Hird I have seen there is a couple messages, without reading them
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: ( think we spoke about those issues already)
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: gezz how do you dare not readimg emails from me??
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: :)
[10:58] Gavin.Hird because I do some system upgrades :-)
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: you did hurt my feelings.. sniff snifff
[10:58] Gavin.Hird deal with it , hehe
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: :p
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: :)
[10:59] Gavin.Hird Visual Studio for macOS went to mono 6.4 today
[11:00] Gavin.Hird so I guess I'll have to test that too
[11:01] Ubit Umarov: tampa said 6.4 does compile opensim with 0 errors
[11:01] Gavin.Hird good
[11:02] Gavin.Hird does it run it too :-O
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: i asked the same, not answer :)
[11:02] Gavin.Hird aha
[11:04] Arielle.Popstar was sort of hoping a Firestorm dev might show up
[11:04] Bill.Blight IT runs on 6.4 fine, but have not had it running long enough to know if it runs well .
[11:05] Bill.Blight but no instant problems
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks Have any of the FS devs been invited to attend these meetings?
[11:05] Arielle.Popstar open invite
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: dreaming Arielle ?
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks Perhaps they might need a reminder.
[11:05] Arielle.Popstar i did mention on their blog that i had never seen one in the 8 years i been coming
[11:06] Gavin.Hird right, the first version of were somewhat flaky
[11:06] Arielle.Popstar as did a ceretain Anonymous poster
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: they always did target SL mostly
[11:07] Arielle.Popstar yes well they have enough of a team they could do both
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: no idea how old are the FS/opensim historic flames
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: that should just be history now..
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar instead of getting 5 different versions of opensim bothering them they could have come here for an hour and informed all at once
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: yes we need some kind of "critical mass" to talk with viewer devs
[11:09] Gavin.Hird meaning?
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: what you mean meaning ?
[11:10] Gavin.Hird some kind of "critical mass"
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yes critical mass ie user base etc
[11:10] Gavin.Hird ic
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: that is the worse problem with forks
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: dissolves the user base
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks nods
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: do all became meaningless
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: so all...
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar i pointed out in the blog that we could have upwards of 40,000 Opensim Firestorm users
[11:11] Gavin.Hird OSG also contributes to that not using standard opensim
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar how is it not standard?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: osg used mostly standard opensim
[11:11] Gavin.Hird not using the standard modules
[11:12] Gavin.Hird not supporting My Suitcase
[11:12] Gavin.Hird as two examples
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: only a few this like assets server does diverge a bit
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar it is a choice
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar version 1
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: to fit better on their raids
[11:12] Gavin.Hird they are supposed to be the test grid / reference implementation
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well hg 1.5 is still a option
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar Version 1
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar 1.5 had some sort of suitcase i thought
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: they also do not allow any delete of trash, except via web
[11:13] Gavin.Hird right
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar that was a protection
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar s some users had their inventory trashed
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: and for some very odd reason they love Bullet
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:14] Gavin.Hird my point being that viewer developers needs a reference implementation
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well lbsa is on ubode :)
[11:14] Gavin.Hird to test against
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar well because it prevented their mesh builds from being broken
[11:14] Gavin.Hird like the SL test grid
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: on most things they are on core code
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar what does the reference viewer mean anyway?
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar isnt their current opensim one work for that?
[11:15] Gavin.Hird it means you have a verified implementation of functionality
[11:15] Gavin.Hird like they have for SL
[11:15] Gavin.Hird where both the viewer and backend code are constantly verified against each other
[11:16] Gavin.Hird and adjusted accordingly
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: yes but they follow all LL meetings and to what LL tells them
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar well would need master release updated by a year or so first :)
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: they do not tell LL to file issues on they jira :p
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: and things like that
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: most viewers just told that to any opensim dev
[11:17] Gavin.Hird these viewers primarily exist to serve LL customers
[11:17] Gavin.Hird but even that is getting harder and harder
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar found any problems on your beta BoM viewer Bill?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird my take is they will all be gone in 2 years or so
[11:17] Bill.Blight If LL tells any TPV dev to do something that is going to break Opensimulator support, guess which one looses .. <hint> not LL/SL
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: bill seems sleeping
[11:18] Gavin.Hird of course they will
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and he does have a cat to call him like andrew has
[11:18] Bill.Blight actually was on Doggy duty, catching up with chat
[11:19] Bill.Blight The current version of the windows build of my new test viewer has been very stable, so far
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks My cat usually calls me for play time rather than reminding me of the meeting.
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar thats the same one as the one that is linked here/?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: WARNING: that viewer has no safeguards for older regions either
[11:19] Bill Blight: No
[11:19] Bill Blight: yes
[11:20] Bill Blight: that is why I have not updated this one
[11:20] Bill Blight: because it can crash older regions
[11:20] Gavin.Hird sweet
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: possible will never have, since bill targets latest opensim code
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar I was noticing alpha issues but wasnt sure if it was just me jumping different grids and it got corrupted
[11:20] Bill Blight: can, but hasn't yet
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: When things calm down a bit on the projects I'm currently working on I'm going to update the version of Linux Mint I'm running. That will allow me to test the version of viewer Bill has released.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: ( not sure we can call it a release still )
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar not seen it crash any regions i went to
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar Hy is also looking at the FS code now that she can build FS in 18 minutes
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well i sent a few emails to opensim-dev about a few viewer issues
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: cinder answer one, and may fix alchmy hover even today
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: as gavin and bill already did
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: that half of a line code change :)
[11:23] Gavin.Hird hehe
[11:23] Bill Blight: LOL yeah
[11:23] Bill Blight: was brutal
[11:23] Bill Blight: :P
[11:23] Gavin.Hird you made the viewer About box because of that
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: what??? i wasn't there already ??
[11:24] Gavin.Hird no
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: bad gavin.Hird
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar does Daytrun have advanced lighting?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:24] Gavin.Hird did you ever submit any code to the viewer?
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Released in to the wild if not in an actual release state. :)
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar turn
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeap did did
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: once even patch to singu
[11:25] Gavin.Hird not to my knowledge
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: that liru refused
[11:25] Gavin.Hird but in any case you are there now
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: and then sienna approved :)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: was visualparameters think if i remember
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar was that a response to me Gavin?
[11:26] Gavin.Hird no
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: other things got there bc i said
[11:26] Gavin.Hird of course it has Advanced lighting
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: im not a viewer dev, im not suposed to mess with viewer code
[11:27] Gavin.Hird but I introduced a bug in 1.4.6 which is being fixed in 1.4.8 for point lights
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar someone said it didnt and thats why they wouldnt use it so i can tell them they are full of it
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: and most likely if im forced to have a viewer dev step ready to produce patchs
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar they were talking about dayturn in the Dreamgrid group on Mewe
[11:28] Gavin.Hird they only reason why it might not be possible to turn on is because it did not recognize their graphics card
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: then mostly likely i will just release a opensim viewer
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar a number were expressing interest
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar you will Ubit?
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: It is good to see a few different viewers targetting OS. It remains to be seen if one will stand out from the rest.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird there is an issue that has popped up with the Windows version that My Suitcase don't show
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar based on which current viewer?
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar oh?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: no ill avoid it as much as possible, and possible will also not have the time for it
[11:29] Gavin.Hird and I cannot for the bare life of me find out why has the code to support it was added in 2015, and it has worked for the macOS version since
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: But.. i will not produce any formal patch again
[11:30] Gavin.Hird I went back and tested old Windows versions and it never worked
[11:30] Bill Blight: x32 builds of Kokua had issues showing the suitcase
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ( that one i did to singu was rejected as i said... and would had stayed broken if sienna did not step in )
[11:30] Gavin.Hird the support code is identical to Alchemy and Singu
[11:30] Gavin.Hird it must have had Bill
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar if it was accepted in the end Ubit, whats the prob?
[11:31] Gavin.Hird it never worked, and I went back and tested that far
[11:31] Bill Blight: x64 it worked
[11:31] Gavin.Hird the code is still even in Kokua SL
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar you dont fall over backwwards and rush to put in patched either when someone submits to core
[11:31] Bill Blight: but yeah the x32 never worked right
[11:31] Gavin.Hird I suspect it is a library issue, so I will do an overnight build with new libraries
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar so basically going to write off any further interaction with Firestorm?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: thing is that the work from having a tested patch to have a windows64 release is just minlmal
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: other OS ok that does take a lot more time
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: so no point on going beg this or that viewer, "please accept my patch" to most likely get a just plain NO
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: and just "because reasons.."
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar what about EEP server side?
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar have you considered it?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird they have not even released EEP
[11:37] Bill Blight: LL/SL does not even have it working right yet
[11:37] Gavin.Hird Oz said they need more time
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: how can it at this point if even LL is having issues with it ?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( or so i was told )
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar so i suppose only LL has that code?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: guess its also public
[11:38] Gavin.Hird there is an EEP viewer project
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar ahh
[11:38] Gavin.Hird but it is still changing
[11:38] Gavin.Hird and
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ( i don't look to ll sources )
[11:38] Gavin.Hird we are not going to release stuff they have not released
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: i could look to LL sources since they are lgpl and our rule about that is gone
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but i kept part of that rule, i only look to TPVs code
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: ( also no point.. ll code does not work on opensim )
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar Bill, did the code for the BoM viewer come from Firestorm beta viewer or is it Opensim exclusive?
[11:39] Bill Blight: It came from LGPL sources
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: its fs 6.3.2
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: with some changes, like andrew patch, hover patch
[11:40] Bill Blight: so it is the same code they use for LL/SL
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar so FS does give out beta viewers to Opensim people?
[11:40] Gavin.Hird the LGPL repository is not release code
[11:40] Bill Blight: correct
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: and a few scary things bill is messing with :P
[11:40] Bill Blight: yep
[11:41] Bill Blight: if going to screw with it, I'm going to SCREW with it ..
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: LL mentioned they have several projects in the works. EEP is one of them. A better renderer is another, IIRC. It will remains to be seen what impact those changes may have on OS and any OS specific viewer.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: particles max size = 7.96m here with it also
[11:41] Bill Blight: yep
[11:41] Gavin.Hird EEP is a major render change Andrew
[11:42] Gavin.Hird which is why it is taking them so long
[11:42] Bill Blight: EEP is part of that render change
[11:42] Bill Blight: yep
[11:42] Gavin.Hird it is basically trial and error
[11:42] Gavin.Hird they don't understand how the renderer works
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ( and funny looking the the few docs not even comp to that render love something )
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Diva/Melanie/Ubit were working on a viewer that used a different renderer. I know that was going to be a longer term project.
[11:42] Bill Blight: it's going to take major changes, and once they switch there is no backwards compatibility ..
[11:43] Gavin.Hird Dayturn has the love me render changes
[11:43] Gavin.Hird some of them are pretty old
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Love me render changes?
[11:44] Bill Blight: This is a case of "Be careful what you ask for, you might get it"
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: well EEP we just need to wait
[11:44] Gavin.Hird updates to the renderer accumulated over a good year or so
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Bill.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i really don't like the per parcel enviroment.. may never support it
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: but lets see
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: it is even possible we can't have it at all
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: lets see
[11:45] Bill Blight: Well we already know 99% for sure that it cannot co-exist with windlight/lightshare
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar and would any of the changes have a potential effect on the architectural difference Opensim has like standalones
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I can see a per parcel environment useful if you are talking weather. You don't want it raining inside a building.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: but im almost 100% that there is a windlight glue/translation code
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: LL can't not kill current regions windlight settings
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: so im sure there is a translation path
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: possible ll region servers only
[11:47] Gavin.Hird they have deployed multiple server side changes to support legacy windlight
[11:47] Gavin.Hird but also some viewer changes
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: so can't be a absolute Drama, because ll can not do absolute dramas :p
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: ( still seems they have done a few.. so i was told :p )
[11:48] Gavin.Hird the first versions looked like shit on a normal viewer with black stars all over at daytime and weired sky colors
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: you mean black holes sky then ?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird something like that :-))
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: well we need to wait for viewers ppl to have their pains, before we can look to it
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and then make them have even more pain :p
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: remember that windlight was a issue also back in the day
[11:52] Gavin.Hird terrible folks, those viewer ppl
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Just under 10 minutes before the top of the hour. Does anyone have a question on another OS topic they wanted to ask?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: opensim support for it was odd, and viewers had special code for opensim
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: well it is still odd :p
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Apparently not. I just want to make sure people have the opportunity to ask their questions and not feel left out. )
[11:54] Gavin.Hird Did you get your Pi up and running Andrew?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I haven't had time to do more than take it out of the box and look at it. I've inserted the memory stick in to it and put it in its case. That's it. Still hasn't been powered up.
[11:55] JayR.Cela it's nice to hear renewed interest in an OS specific viewer being openly discussed
[11:55] Gavin.Hird wow
[11:55] Gavin.Hird patience
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, there is always interest. It is whether people are available with the interest and skills to work on an OS specific viewer.
[11:56] JayR.Cela yep
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and time...
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Too busy with work and another project.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: most current devs time, must be used to break regions code
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i mean fix
[11:56] JayR.Cela lol :_)
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:56] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I'm getting closer to having software ready to be burned in to an EPROM so I can test out my computer in an Altoids tin project.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Ubit
[11:57] Gavin.Hird all right
[11:58] Gavin.Hird I am waiting for the boot loader update to boot from ssd for the PI. But they have provided a 64-bit kernel which seems to be stable and much faster for IO
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: about that FS incident
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, If you don't need the micro SD for anything you can start the boot off that then have it mount and use the partitions on an SSD.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird not for the PI 4
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: i have not seen any other ofificial statements from them, so things are as my recomendation email
[12:00] Gavin.Hird it can only boot from sd card
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: but had some private contacts telling the that AS IS will not be that AS IS
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: so safer to use by our users..
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: lets see
[12:00] Gavin.Hird as is sounds a bit hazardous
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I see items on eBay sold "as is". Often means broken or not working. ;)
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: the way its was specified is just unacceptable
[12:02] Gavin.Hird I sell my stuff on SL marketplace as is
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it limits the complaints
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it is just a bunch of bits anyway
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and just by direct consequence, any viewer that drops a protocol needed by opensim, auto excluded it self from the opensim viewers set
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: It is just past the top of the hour. Any last minute comments for today?
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar what e-mail from you Ubit?
[12:04] Arielle.Popstar gots a link?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: on our mail lists
[12:04] Gavin.Hird drops as in remove, or drops as in don't have
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: osg and other grids did post it on their forums also
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: It is past the top of the hour so let's close this meeting officially for today.
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

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