Chat log from the meeting on 2019-06-11

From OpenSimulator

Jump to: navigation, search

[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks Good turnout today. Who is going to get us started?
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Has anyone ever used the search events tab in an OpenSim grid?
[11:06] Sheera Khan: Kay still had some as of yet unasked questions ...
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks There's one of them. :)
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: ALWAYS QUESTIONS!
[11:07] Bill.Blight Mine work on my grid, but people rarely post their events to it, they use social media ..
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks There is currently no support for events. It is something I've started but haven't finished yet. I still have some work to do on the event creation page.
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I'm told there is some compatibility between OpenSim and the viewer, Discovery Grid just got it working but say they had to write some sort of translator script.
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar Hgluv has it too but rarely if ever used
[11:08] Bill.Blight Jopensim supports events
[11:08] Selby.Evans I use Firestorm search in Kitely for other things, but not for events -- Kitely has an events calendar
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: And a WEB page to create events.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: search needs extra web suport
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks There is both a module part to events and a web page side to it.
[11:09] Bill.Blight Jopensim supports event creation from the web and search in world ..
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks I have the module part already done.
[11:09] Leighton.Marjoram I have it for my grid with jOpenSim but dont have residents and guests find out via social media
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks Leighton, does the jOpenSim version support showing events on the grid map?
[11:11] Selby.Evans I think people mainly use Hypevernts:
[11:11] Bill.Blight yes it does
[11:11] Leighton.Marjoram yep
[11:11] Bill.Blight and classifieds
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks ok, good.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks Don't classifieds already show on the map?
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I thought hypevents shut down!
[11:12] George Equus: Never heard about that page b4..
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram you can find events through the web search (with viewer open links)
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks hm... probably not. There is no marker shown in the map legend for classifieds.
[11:13] Bill.Blight Jopensim shows classifieds on the web grid map
[11:13] Selby.Evans Hypevents changed owners and the website url
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram and the grid map
[11:14] Selby.Evans try the one I gave.
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks Sure, you could do that on the web page side of things. I was asking about showing the event markers in the built-in viewer grid map. My module supports that.
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram The classifieds show up in the viewer search
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram that have a teleport link to
[11:15] Sandy Beachcomber thinks social media sounds more productive
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks yes, but they aren't marked in the viewer grid map.
[11:15] Bill.Blight events do show on the viewerside
[11:15] Bill.Blight classifieds don't
[11:16] Leighton.Marjoram most people it seems in Opensim rely on outside tools to do that type of thing rather the viewer
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks Events will if you have a way of populating an events table and retrieving it.
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks retreiving the data.
[11:16] George Equus: Seems a standard for all of opensim for all this is much needed.
[11:16] Selby.Evans I show Hype events on my Thursday blog article -- and OpenSimWorld Events
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks One of the features I'm also working on is event reminders. You can say you are interested in an event and get an IM when it is about to start.
[11:17] Selby.Evans Thursday blog
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks I've seen that style of page before. I never personally liked that style of presentation of information.
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks I will have another look at where i stand with the events creation page. It may be good enough that someone can add the spit and polish.
[11:21] Selby.Evans I also get notices on Discord
[11:21] Leighton.Marjoram I was going to say that Selby
[11:22] Bill.Blight And discord has a nice api that you can leverage to send info from in world or from your web page, so that is handy
[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram Discord is great you can use bots to get and post information.
[11:22] Bill.Blight Jinx
[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram The main issue I think is most of the features relied on PHP to handle it so to compensate social media filled in the feature gap easily and functionally.
[11:23] Sandy Beachcomber: php is a problem?
[11:23] Selby.Evans People also post on Twitter and Facebook -- if you follow their posts, you can see those.
[11:23] Leighton.Marjoram In SL the viewer search functions are still widely used.
[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram For some grid admins yes Sandy
[11:24] Sandy Beachcomber: oh
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks Sandy, The core version of OpenSim won't accept reliance on external website and PHP code for features.
[11:24] Sandy Beachcomber: i find it the most flexible
[11:25] Leighton.Marjoram Grids are touting search features as if they are special additional features when its just PHP handlind. jOpenSim is a great set of tools that come with the PHP tools bundled.
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks Sandy, there are many add-on modules and tools use with OpenSim that use web servers and PHP files.
[11:25] Bill.Blight And has for quite a few years
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks third-party add-on
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks yes.
[11:25] Sandy Beachcomber: yes i realise
[11:26] Bill.Blight yes Third party Andrew, but as per opensim's own description , Opensimulator is a Framework
[11:26] Sandy Beachcomber: is why i wondered about the comment about relying on php
[11:26] Gavin.Hird actually most of the viewer search functionality filled in by external php for opensim can be generated directly by SQL queries to the opensim database tables
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, right.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks Gavin, yes.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird I think I only found one issue where you would have to add some extra info to a table
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: yes but you know that opensim grid side suport is still limited
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks I was also working on a page to do the queries and present a search results page that would be similar to the type of page you get in a place like SL.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: most focus along the years was on regions side code
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks Gavin, what extra data?
[11:27] Gavin.Hird I don't recall at the top of my head
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks ok, np
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: some grid side was kinda left to third party..
[11:28] Bill.Blight The more ancillary features that become "built in" , IMHO, the harder it will be to get adoption as many already have custom configs, and may fight against having "built in" functions that they have to disable or fight against ... (just a thought)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird but I made a few views I still should have
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks The idea I had was to add a search page to the repo of my OpenSimSearch module.
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm not sure how well it would work in grids that don't use my addon module but it would be a start.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird but the viewer could call on the grid directly and the grid return the result of a query diretly to the grid database
[11:30] Gavin.Hird wihout any website at all
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks Sure. That could be done via an addon module.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: bad karma having viewers talk to gird
[11:30] Sandy Beachcomber: lol
[11:30] Gavin.Hird actually SL hae said they want to return most of that functionality to the viewer and not use web pages
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: they should only talk to regions ( unless told by region to talk elsewhere )
[11:30] Bill.Blight And we care what SL is doing why?
[11:30] Gavin.Hird as people hate them and there are all kinds of issues with them
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: ( im talking opensim case )
[11:31] Gavin.Hird because they have 1 million users they collect feedback from
[11:31] Gavin.Hird therefore
[11:31] Bill.Blight And they are bleeding users daily
[11:31] Gavin.Hird same with bugs
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram having them in the viewer is cleaner as a single point of entry. Loading web pages in viewers is a nightmare and looks horrendous.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird there is a not a snowballs chance in hell we could get the same bug reporting with the tiny OS userbase
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: how do you know the os userbase ???
[11:32] Selby.Evans I think SL generally ignores user feedback unless it suited there goals
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: how do you count standalones and private closed grids ?
[11:32] Bill.Blight The issue with the viewer getting it, is you rely on the viewer to support it, and also the opensim code to support it, have you ever tried to get opensim people to all use the same version?
[11:33] Gavin.Hird how do I know that??
[11:33] Gavin.Hird if you look collectively at the viewer bug reports each month from OS users, they can be counted on one hand
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: and you think users bother to report bugs ?
[11:34] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: they don't
[11:34] Gavin.Hird they actually do
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: a minorty does
[11:35] Gavin.Hird plus LL has a system to record every viewer crash
[11:35] Bill.Blight a minority of SL users still dwarfs OS users, but again, why do we care what SL users complain about?
[11:36] Gavin.Hird what a silly question
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well i like SL users complain about issues that are also opensim issues :)
[11:36] Sandy Beachcomber: viewer crashes - anyone know of a good resource for interpreting fs crash logs?
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: but how many did complain at sl about that object contents issue?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird without Sl complaints there would not have been any Bento, Animesh, and a whole slew of functionality we have in the viewers everyone use
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: it is as bad there as is, in fact its better here now
[11:37] Gavin.Hird ask FS?
[11:37] Sandy Beachcomber: ok
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: it is FS strategy to suport opensimulator
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ( just devs did forget it )
[11:39] Gavin.Hird FS devs?
[11:39] Bill.Blight They evidently are forking a specific branch for OS now
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: anyways i have no idea about the size of opensim user numbers or even how measure that
[11:40] Bill.Blight
[11:40] Gavin.Hird In my judgement is is a necessity for them to do so
[11:41] Gavin.Hird There is a new viewer build with Andres map search patch out at
[11:41] Gavin.Hird Andrew's even*
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:43] Gavin.Hird so that was a good contribution! ;-)
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm running a patched version of FS that I built from source. I should update.
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, that simple question turned in to a rather long and complicated set of responses. Do you have another question for us?
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar .whats the scopp on this dislay name thing
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar why is it such an issue to be put in core
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks It won't be supported in core.
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: None of the developers want it.
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar why nhot
[11:48] Sandy Beachcomber: what about the users?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: yes core will not suport display names as sl has them
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Personally, I don't like display names.
[11:48] Leighton.Marjoram was a little surprised by the reaction from core tbh I assume I dont know the context of that decision from core.
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: why? all devs consider it a wrong feature
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar in what wway?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: all ways plus one
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar seems an innocuous enough thing
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar even bill has it
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar thats not an answer Ubit
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: I always have questions! But I want to get better organized for them, so I'll wait until next week.
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: People use display names to put all kinds of fancy stuff in the display over their head. they are hard to read and mostly impossible to type. How are you supposed to address them if you can't type their display name? If you use their ordinary name are they going to even remember their normal name and respond to it?
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Kayaker.
[11:49] George Equus: My impression is it is popular with the average user
[11:49] Gavin.Hird persoanlly I find it creates confusions, but I can equally see why people like it
[11:50] Sandy Beachcomber: that is the users choice
[11:50] Leighton.Marjoram Its a fairly easy distinction to make display name versus account name Andrew
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yes it may be popular, that does not make it good for comunity in general
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar well its not like developers actually are inworld is it?
[11:50] Leighton.Marjoram I only see Melanie once a year for conference.
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar or grid managers/owners
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: If you pick a display name using upside down characters are you going to expect everyone else to know the codes they need to type to have text appear upside down? If not, how do you expect people to type something that is meant for you?
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar huh?
[11:51] Gavin.Hird the problem with the standard names are you cannot use your real name, or common names in your language except English
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram Open their profile and copy and paste
[11:52] Sandy Beachcomber: thats the users problem/choice
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram 🦄 Leighton 🦄 (leighton.marjoram)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: you are not suposed to need to do that
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram from my profile with display name
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Leighton, hm... if the profile shows their display name that would work. I hadn't thought of that.
[11:52] Bill Blight: Most bigger and a lot of smaller grids, already use their own custom versions , so adding display names should be no big leap for them when it is released ... And our search for names, works for both display and the original name which is still displayed under the display name ..
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: but its also individuals identification
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: simple clear..
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar so is uuid
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: you you want other name, make a alt
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: if...
[11:53] Leighton.Marjoram then you have to maintain 2 or more inventories Ubit
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I have my viewer set to not show display names even if I wind up in a grid that supports them.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: of course grids can add the modules and features they want
[11:53] Sandy Beachcomber: or you drive users back to sl if they want it?
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar ok so then why do you care if it is in core for those who would like it?
[11:54] George Equus: Benefit is you don't need to create an alt if you want a different name Ubit. Besides, all this is up to the individual user.
[11:54] Sandy Beachcomber: exactly george!
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Register with the name you want or get the grid admin to change it. :)
[11:54] George Equus: I now have a proper name in SL thanks to this feature
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar the prob with that is Ubit, why bother with core at all then as it has no other features or benefits planned for the users
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: we are not neutral on what we do, and we do not follow pseudo majorities on things we think are wrong
[11:55] George Equus: Not that I spend that much time there lol
[11:55] Selby.Evans I wanted display names because SL would not let me use my real name. OS allows that, so I don't care about display names in OS.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird and even making an alt does not solve the problem of not being able to use names differing from English names
[11:55] Gavin.Hird to give an example, the character Ø in the Norwegian language has the same freqenecy as the character B in inglish
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar so it is you who is against this Ubit? Not Melanie?
[11:56] George Equus: ö in Swedish by the way..
[11:56] Gavin.Hird so by limiting names to ASCII esentially, it is the same as telling English people they can only make names without B
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I thought it was possible to use UTF-8 characters in names.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird login names are strict ascii
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i did said it was more than one dev, you never seen anyone adding it to more than keep viewers happy showing username
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: My User Accounts table uses utf8_unicode_ci for the user name.
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar there is no other dev with voting rights
[11:58] Gavin.Hird the table collocation has nothing to do with it
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar all others other than Robert have not submitted code in 6 months
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: think me and andrew made clear current core position about displaynames :)
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: It does. It shows it will support non-ASCII characters if they are passed to the database.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird try make usernames with non ascii and see what happens when you log in
[11:59] Bill Blight: yep, boom blows up
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar so what new feature do you and Andrew have planned?
[12:00] Bill Blight: we ran into db issues when working on displaynames
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: guess you find the utf8 typical issues also
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I wouldn't know how to make a username with non ASCII characters as I extremely rarely need to type in anything other than English.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: some chars are refused on 3byte utf8 we still need to use
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar lots of opensim grids out there with other nationalities
[12:01] Gavin.Hird go on any non english web-iste and copy and paste :-))
[12:01] Sheera.Khan Well, that may differ if you live in a different country though @Andrew ^^
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar rather short sighted
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I have occasionally done a little bit in French.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yes I know that.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. This hour went by very fast today.
[12:04] Leighton.Marjoram I have to head off to RL and hunger are calling for my attention.
[12:04] Arielle.Popstar is it a robust thing or can be done on the regions?
[12:04] Leighton.Marjoram See you all again next week ttfn
[12:04] George Equus: Interesting discussion though. Thanks
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: what arielle ?
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar compatibility with display names
[12:05] Bill Blight: It has to be Robust if there is any chance of it working on HG
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: both sides
[12:05] Bill Blight: ours works between grids running it,
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Its that time of day. People are needing to leave so we will have to put any further discussion of the current topic on hold until next week.
[12:05] Bill Blight: but it is not a simple change
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar Hy is looking at it for Hgluv
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: storage is grid side etc
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is no other last minute item I will call this one done and dusted.
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar so should have it soon there
[12:06] Bill Blight: Some people like to say, "Oh it's easy" and anybody that does is an idiot
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you next week.
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar she was chatting to the moebius people she said
[12:07] Bill Blight: I work with mobius daily, so I am aware
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar nod
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar so probably will wind up just those using core that will be without
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: good :p
[12:08] Sandy Beachcomber: how is that good?
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar so much for psuedo majority
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar back to Ubit's personal project eh Ubit? :)
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: back to silly questions? :p
[12:09] Bill Blight: we will be releasing an fork that has it already included , plus other things, once the module is cleaned up to a "cleaner" state .
[12:09] Bill Blight: right now the module itself works fine, but setup is not documented
[12:10] Sandy Beachcomber: does that "we" include ubit?
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, is that module for search or display names?
[12:10] Arielle.Popstar guess a fork had to come. Increasing amount
[12:10] Bill Blight: And it does for easier function require some external support, just to avoid search issues ..
[12:10] Bill Blight flüstert: anddrew YES
[12:10] Bill Blight: both
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, anyone can fork OpenSim at any time if they want to do so.
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar yes and seems more and more are doing so or stay stuck on old versions
[12:11] Sandy Beachcomber: thats why its opensim
[12:11] Bill Blight: fixes avatar picker so both display and login name can be searched and will return the correct avatar
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar which is too bad
[12:12] Bill Blight: that is not actually "too bad" that was the mission of opensimulator, to be a framework that devs and grids built upon, not to use "out of the box"
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar not thati care so much about display names but its something a lot in the community seem to want and would be reasonably easy to implemnt
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: If you use a display name, I won't see it. If I try to talk to you by addressing you with your non display name and you don't reply because you don't realize you are being talked to the I'll probably may think you are ignoring or being rude.
[12:13] Bill Blight: if people forget their "real name" they need to lay off the drugs
[12:13] Arielle.Popstar in s/l i answer to both Andrew
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:13] Gavin.Hird :-))
[12:13] Sandy Beachcomber: lol
[12:13] Arielle.Popstar i'm not that blonde
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:13] Sandy Beachcomber: or take more?
[12:13] Gavin.Hird some might want to forget it
[12:13] Bill Blight: ditto Sandy
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar if you have an avatar that you bought a lot for, you may not want to just get another alt
[12:14] Bill Blight: I really see both sides of this argument , and I'm really trying to not take sides on the TECH part of this ..
[12:14] Sandy Beachcomber: lol Bill
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar but may have some impact on certain RP's
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: People who don't work on code will often say something is easy. That doesn't mean it actually is easy to implement
[12:14] Bill Blight: There is more to it than "Just adding display names"
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: tech is not a issue on this
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar in this case Andrew, the tech has been done
[12:15] Bill Blight: I guess I should have said "CODE" instead of tech
[12:15] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: If people want it so much then why hasn't someone openened a mantis and provided the patch to implement display names?
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar here i think its seen as one and the same
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Or perhaps they have and I've not noticed the mantis.
[12:16] Bill Blight: but I understand both sides as I said, but being a grid owner, my users wanted it , so I added it, but I fought it.
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar from the sounds of this meeting, it wont go through
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar and i am sure Bill is not forking lightly and must have alreeady discussed it with Ubit
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Well, no devs are interested in writing the code to implement the feature.
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: arielle i already said no one on core likes displaynames, and possible non ever did
[12:17] Bill Blight: Ubit hates it, so I don't talk to him about it ...
[12:17] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:17] Sandy Beachcomber: wonder how many os instances are actually out of the box - vanilla
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: we all considered it a ll mistake
[12:17] Arielle.Popstar because Ubit, you are a dev and not a user
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: i was a sl user when it did come out and i hated it
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Sandy, depends a bit on how you define out of the box. The base code can still be there but there are still add-ons and web side support for things added by grid owners.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: it was a ll mistake...
[12:18] Bill Blight: I maintain 4 forks including the one I work on with Mobius, so yeah it is a headache, only one is public but the second will be public once we get display names cleaned up ..
[12:18] Arielle.Popstar spent 50 minutes talking about a website issue
[12:19] Arielle.Popstar search functions
[12:19] Sandy Beachcomber: what happens to all the anonymous forks when 10 comes out?
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: You never know what will be discussed from one meeting to the next. :)
[12:19] Arielle.Popstar 10?
[12:19] Sandy Beachcomber: os 10
[12:20] Arielle.Popstar never happen
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We aren't even at 1.0

Personal tools
About This Wiki