Chat log from the meeting on 2019-04-23

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[11:12] Ubit Umarov: we don't have docs on ll* functions
[11:12] Telehub: Welcome back to, Dev Outreach, Andrew Hellershanks.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: mb we should bc some are not as "spec"
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram Hell Andrew
[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram Hello
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: The OpenSimulator page that shows what ll functions are implemented is what I mean.
[11:12] Sandy Beachcomber: hi Andrew
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: It says that llLoopSoundMaster/Slave are not implimented.
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: not sure that part is updated
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I just got back in the house. Unfortunately my shopping trip was not fruitful.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird what about this page?
[11:13] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:13] Bill Blight: There are also ossl equivs to them
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeap no one looking to that page gavin :)
[11:13] Gavin.Hird maybe they should and it should be updated?
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: Are your ears burning Andrew? We were talking about updating the pages, you have done some work on those.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: wlel some did update telling some things do work on 0.9.1
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I know. I still have to create some pages for the wiki.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: llGetAnimationOverride should work now also
[11:15] Gavin.Hird when was that implemented?
[11:15] dj phil: I think Tampa would like to work on the list of implemented functions of the opensim wiki. He asked me for a script to facilitate the view of the functions implemented / not implemented.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: The page that lists what LL functions are implemented is very likely in need of updating.
[11:16] Sandy Beachcomber: it is
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: llGetSPMaxMemory will not get any implementation
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, that is tied in to some script profiler thing in SL.
[11:18] Bill Blight: kind of hard for a script to see what functions work and not, as some have stubs , so you would have to perform full function tests to find out if they are there .. Only way to be sure is to actually test them.
[11:18] Bill Blight: or look through the api
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: It could be implemented to always return that 16384 value. :)
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: thats the getused/free memory ones
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: on Xengine
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: on Y they do return, something.. but looks bad
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: (some open mantis on those )
[11:20] Gavin.Hird some random memory location? :-)
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: again crap garbage collectior issues
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bernd
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: a simnple script allocating some 100 bytes on collision event service totoally fill up the 256KB allowed memory, before GC bothering to look
[11:21] Bernd.Steinhardt Hello and happy Easter
[11:21] Gavin.Hird Thanks the same Bernd
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: i worked around that case, but several others still there
[11:21] Sandy Beachcomber: hi Bernd
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: and it just does not count all memory usage ( even some relevant one)
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, right. Happy easter.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: its actually a waste of time that code
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I forgot that was this past weekend.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird In Norway Easter is from mid Wednesday through Monday, so a long good break for everyone.
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, did we get to all of your questions as of last week?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: it is kinda relevant to control scripts memory usage on some regions case ( like rental parcels areas) but.. well mostly a fail
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: LOL! I only had 2 left and already got answers to them today!
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, good.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: X just did notthing.. 16k fixed return
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: I may leave early. Going to the Big City with my gal.
[11:24] Sandy Beachcomber: win win!
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: why no gals at the big city? why taking one ??
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok, Have a fun trip..
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: I'm up in the Seattle Washington area this week.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: The days after easter mean it is time to look for all the easter candy going on sale.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: ;)
[11:25] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ Andrew
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: What other topics do you want to talk about today?
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: related to OpenSim.
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: In Mexico the locals take a week off for Easter and hang out at the beaches. I've accadently been kayaking down there during that time and been unable to find a place to land!
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Well, if nobody else has questions, I'll go get back to RL!
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Thanks everyone!
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Are we really all talked out about OS topics for today?
[11:27] Gavin.Hird Bye
[11:27] Sandy Beachcomber: tc Kayaker
[11:27] Christoph.Balhaus ciao!
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker. tc
[11:27] Leighton.Marjoram tc Kayaker
[11:28] Gavin.Hird LL released their 6.2 viewer last week with updated Estate management functions that requires some server side updates
[11:28] Bernd.Steinhardt oh a really short meeting - giggles
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Bernd, it very well could be. :)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird another opensim developer told be it should be easy to implment also for opensim
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: oh the meeting started already?
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what sort of features have they added?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird better ban list management and some
[11:29] Gavin.Hird I have not looked very closely into it because of Easter
[11:29] Gavin.Hird and I don't have an estate to manage in SL
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah and possibel ban viewer that do not support the new features
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: They don't support Linux any more so I'm in no rush to update my copy of the viewer from LL.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: so eay to say how easy it is to make changes like that .. whatever
[11:31] Gavin.Hird I will look into if some of it can be used in the opensim viewer as it is
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: and having the risk of hitting issues like the viewerassets one
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Gavin. Let us know what you find out.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: ie viewer implementations that only work at SL particular case
[11:31] Gavin.Hird if nothing else they have cleaned up the estate screens some
[11:32] Bill Blight: Sounds to me like the typical, "Oh that would be easy to ADD." statement without thinking about the other 47 things it would break
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well SL changes mean nothing to me until there is a opensim viewer with code to test that
[11:32] Gavin.Hird they also release the functionality for searching preferences for settings which I have in Dayturn, but it was turned off awaiting their release
[11:32] Gavin.Hird so that will be enabled int he next build
[11:33] Bill Blight: FS has had that search for a long time
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, very nice. It is so helpful when switching between viewers that move a lot of the settings around to different places.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and then, actually supporting those changes will be something to consider.. not automatic :p
[11:33] Gavin.Hird yeah, well, that is where the LL code came from + a good portion of cleanup
[11:34] Bill Blight: I find the terms LL and Cleanup diametrically opposed
[11:34] Gavin.Hird a tend to agree, but they actually do quite a bit of it
[11:34] Bill Blight: At some point we need to quit looking to LL as the "gold standard"
[11:35] Bill Blight: we are not SL
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: as i said i do not care about SL
[11:35] Selby.Evans And LL is no gold standard
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: At some point we need to stop saying At some point we need to quit looking to LL as the "gold standard" as we are not SL. :)
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: i may look to features on viewers for opensim,
[11:35] Bill Blight: But until a viewer dev decides to focus on OS instead of SL , we are kind of screwed
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: like voc.. that is a feature on opensim viewers that we where not using..
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: see my point ?
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If that other viewer ever gets off the ground that was started a while ago we will be able to break away from any dependency on SL.
[11:36] Gavin.Hird you don't HAVE to implement VoC or viewerasset
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram we can use SL as a point of reference but not be slaves to its every move and feature. Thats my 2 pennies worth
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: those where features present on viewers used on opensim ( as aniwhat) so i did consider supporting them
[11:37] Gavin.Hird which is why there is an increasing gap between the Dayturn viewer code and the SL viewer
[11:38] Bill Blight: Well when we have no dedicated viewer, and the most used viewer, Firestorm, is moving to using viewerassets exclusively we kind of need to add things like that
[11:38] Bill Blight: unless we have a valid replacement
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: if they did originated at SL or not.. a minor detail for me :p
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: One topic that comes up from time to time is pathfinding. How difficult would it be to implement for OS?
[11:38] Gavin.Hird the SL version of pathfinding is pretty useless if you ask me
[11:39] Gavin.Hird the experience key system might be worth looking itno
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: We could do better. :)(
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: does anyone really uses that anywhere ( but proper games? )
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: -(
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know.
[11:39] Gavin.Hird I am going to remove Pathfinding from the viewer
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I think some people might use it with NPCs
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: think some did scripted code to achive similar results
[11:40] Bill Blight: Experience get's used a lot in SL, but I think less for games as intended and more by control freaks ..
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: if not better
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: the model you are talking about is again a very dedicated and limited one
[11:40] dj phil: I would be happy to use Pathfinding ... often I asked for that ...
[11:40] Gavin.Hird experience can be use - at least partilly to implement RLV like functions without the mess that is the RLV code in the viewer
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't been in SL in some time. I haven't run across a use of experience.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: a thing like experiences requeires a lot of DB and grid side work
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: I know of a system for scripting NPCs that is supposed to allow some fancy things which could eliminate the need for pathfinding in many cases.
[11:41] Gavin.Hird that is probably correct Ubit
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: a big oporturnity for a fail, like HG etc
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we even have trouble keeping user presences up to date :(
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: When I think of something called "experience" I think of D&D. :)
[11:42] Sandy Beachcomber: i use corrade instead of npc
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Sandy, corrade?
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: from what i seen that is just storing scripts permissions, so they don't ask all the time )
[11:43] Sandy Beachcomber: it was written fro sl
[11:43] Sandy Beachcomber: for sl
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: "experiences is just a odd name :p )
[11:43] dj phil: Andrew
[11:43] Sandy Beachcomber: but with a few caveats it works in os
[11:44] Sandy Beachcomber: it doesnt like positions in a var region
[11:44] dj phil: and under windows too ^^
[11:44] Sandy Beachcomber: for obvious reason
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: uff even several viewers still have issues with var regions
[11:45] Gavin.Hird yes I do :-)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: actually currently FS is the one suporting them better
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil: Thanks. I'll check it out.
[11:45] dj phil: yw
[11:46] Gavin.Hird that and HG needs to be fixed totally in Dayturn, but so far (and still for some time) the prio will be getting to 64-bit builds
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, do you need to do much work to support 64-bit builds?
[11:47] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:47] Gavin.Hird the macOS version is done, and that shortens the work for Windows too
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: the funs of using a true language :p
[11:48] Bill Blight: I died a little inside when I had to admit that FS was supporting opensim the best currently ..
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: does require coerent native libs :p
[11:48] Gavin.Hird I have no problem with you saying that
[11:49] Gavin.Hird fortunately I can use the LL lib built versions so far, but everything has an end...
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure which is best but I do know that FS is getting regular updates.
[11:50] Sandy Beachcomber: so does the dayturn viewer work?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:50] Bill Blight: if FS had disable build constraints, it really would be the only viewer I would need to use currently ...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and some fix mesh uploads constraints
[11:51] Bill Blight: Dayturn is good, I use it when building, don't really have any MAJOR issues with it
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: i hate the damm images on chat
[11:51] Sandy Beachcomber: I will try it with my orrade bots
[11:52] Sandy Beachcomber: corrade
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and some var regions issues
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: like failed minimap tps
[11:52] dj phil: Possible implementation of infinite region ? (like Aurora)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: hmm or any tp outside the main 256m corner ?
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. If there was some chat during the first 10 minutes or so of this gathering that should be included in the log that gets posted to the wiki please IM me.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: no one had infinite regions
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: has
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: to just open the region bonsaries and let you fly out is nothing
[11:53] Gavin.Hird I'll try and fix the minimpa tps for the next release
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: bonsaries??  :)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:53] Gavin.Hird that and the avatar draw distance on it
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I know what you meant to type, Ubit.
[11:54] Bill Blight hates the minimap
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: good no need for me to type again :)
[11:54] Bill Blight: can watch the updates flood when it is open
[11:54] dj phil: Feeling of freedom Ubit
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I seldom use it except as a quick check of which direction I'm facing.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird I would have used it more if I had busy regions
[11:55] Sandy Beachcomber: its good in a big var
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: not that view range now also has impact on nearby regions in view
[11:55] Gavin.Hird which is one of th griefs Bill has
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: NOTE...
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: ohh i use minimap a lot
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: something i learned playing WoT :)
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: wlel i used is a lot bf that
[11:56] Bill Blight: I have not kept the mini map open for years,
[11:56] Bill Blight: text radar works good for me
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: vital for situation wearness
[11:56] Bill Blight: but I only care if people are near me or see if they wandered off , if with a group
[11:57] Bill Blight: yeah but I don't worry about Ubit shooting me from a tank in opensim, have you seen him drive? More likely to shoot himself
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i did use script things bf good viewers radar
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: minimap is a less intrusive way of keeping track of my compass heading than opening and closing the full grid map.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes useful in grid hunts.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird it is Andrew
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well that's what kinda happens to me at WoT lol
[11:58] dj phil: Minimap can help effectively when you lose an object or a scripted object
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: have a lake filled with my amx elc tanks
[11:58] Bill Blight: That is what area search is for djphil
[11:58] Gavin.Hird plus there is a ton of functionality in the People floater which it is part of
[11:58] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: and my amx 13 90..
[11:58] Bill Blight: :P
[11:58] Sandy Beachcomber: area search is good at that
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil, how so? I often find people lose track of items and I don't see that minimap would help that much.
[11:58] dj phil: if you know the name Bill ...
[11:59] Bill Blight: well in FS the radar is a separate piece does not have all the extra people stuff in it, so nice and light to keep open
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Area search is not so helpful if most of the objects are still called Primitive. :)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: err minimap objects depend on voc culling and region side culling now
[11:59] Sandy Beachcomber: lol Andrew
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: viewers area search all suffer from that also
[12:00] Sandy Beachcomber: i have an inventory littered with they
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: regions will no tell viewers about all objects in region
[12:00] Gavin.Hird NickyP never wanted to have a radar in Kokua which is why it is not in the current codebase of dayturn
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: The filtering in Area Search can be useful. Check based on owner or description and not just object name.
[12:00] Sandy Beachcomber: yes
[12:00] Gavin.Hird but the new developer implemented it, so...
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: "radar" is vital :p
[12:00] Bill Blight: Just me I guess, I like the stand alone radar, without all the extra stuff in it
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I've often found peoples lost objects up in the air when looking around a region. I usually IM the owner in case they had lost track of something and wondered where it went.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird the Kokua radar is a pure textual implementation
[12:01] Sandy Beachcomber: thats where corrade falls down
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but again... it and area search will be more limited in future with region side culling / viewer side culling
[12:01] Sandy Beachcomber: its radar is based on sl size regions
[12:01] Gavin.Hird region side culling in SL with the SL viewer is a nightmare
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: FS radar kinda finally works fine on var regions
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: dayt also i thing..
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it pulls in the same shit over and over again
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, how much culling will it be doing?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: just tps, don't
[12:02] Bill Blight: FS radar has a 4096 range,
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: by avatar camera position :p
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: no more ppl visiting regions using only the free camera
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ( they can at SL, but that is suicidal )
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: but culling is viewer side scabilty issue
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: just damm heavy :(
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: LS 256m region size and prims limit was a way to solve that
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: sl
[12:05] Bill Blight: yep I remember the big debate in Linden Worlds about region size
[12:05] Sandy Beachcomber: that explains a lot
[12:05] Bill Blight: some wanted 1024 others wanted 128
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: its a basic distributed scene tech
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: just damm crossings make it dam useless
[12:06] Gavin.Hird sounds like the DOS memory debate
[12:06] Bill Blight: 256 was decided on mainly because at the time that is the most viewers could handle rendering at once
[12:06] Sandy Beachcomber: lol i was gonna say that
[12:06] Sandy Beachcomber: region crossings make me favour large vars
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: they are a poor answer for that
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but don't scale
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and add other issues ( like limited precision effects )
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and of course anyone looking to 1km area, can't resist putting 100 000 prims on it
[12:08] Gavin.Hird haha
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: and of course 1km view range
[12:08] Gavin.Hird of course
[12:08] Bill Blight: I just visited a region that the person told me , they went LIGHT on their 8x8 var ... had 79k items on it ... In what universe is that LIGHT?
[12:08] Leighton.Marjoram on a 10 year old PC
[12:09] Sandy Beachcomber: but region crossings are not good
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well even before vars i seen regions here at osg with 120000 prims
[12:09] Gavin.Hird the same universe that use 500k polys for a pair of jeans
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: 256x256m size regions :)
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ohh yeah.. that was before meshs
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, were those one of nebadon's regions? :)
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: another thing i see is that we ail lbe forced to enfoece LI also at some point
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ..we will be forced.. i meant
[12:10] Gavin.Hird make it optional
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: LI?
[12:11] dj phil: Land Impact
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks whispers: Oh. The Dwell thing?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: dwell ??
[12:11] Gavin.Hird if someone wants to have 200k LI in their private grid regions - fine
[12:11] dj phil: Dwell :p :p :p
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, the impact that (mesh) objects have on a region.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well the guess the limit will need to be a option. damm
[12:12] Gavin.Hird SL-11022 Proxy port number is limited to 12K instead of 65K
[12:12] Gavin.Hird is this a good or bad idea?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but our current math will need change also
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: guess that has to do with OS retrictions on ports usage
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: os ie operating sys
[12:13] Gavin.Hird nobody use proxies over 12k?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: but possible there are industry restrictions on that.. not my area
[12:14] Gavin.Hird as if that has stopped anyone...
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: guess they all need to be above 1024 :)
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: if i remember port < 1024 is reserved
[12:15] Leighton.Marjoram RL is calling so I need to head off good meeting and see you next week. :waves:
[12:15] Gavin.Hird port 9000 is officially reserved for TCP/UDP - EMC2 (Legato) Networker or Sun Solcitice Backup
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: cya fake angel
[12:15] Leighton.Marjoram chuckles
[12:15] Bernd.Steinhardt bye leighton
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: hmm guess many do not care abotu those reservation lists
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: all 64k space is reserved i guess
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Ports less than 1024 require root perms to use them.
[12:16] Gavin.Hird not ginna take SL-11022 for now then
[12:17] Gavin.Hird gonna*
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: the idea to use ports to identify service was a bad idea
[12:17] Bill Blight: gotta bail
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: It is useful if you are trying to contact a fixed daemon/service on a remote machine.
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, tc Bill.
[12:17] Gavin.Hird I need to go too
[12:17] Sandy Beachcomber: ok ty
[12:18] Sandy Beachcomber: i learned some
[12:18] Gavin.Hird have a splendid week
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap but only a few did stuck as standard like port 80
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: It is almost 20 past so it is time to call this one done and dusted.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: or 8080
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. Hope you had a good easter weekend. See you next week.

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