Chat log from the meeting on 2018-11-20

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[11:08] Arielle.Popstar so whats new and exciting in Opensim this week Ubit?
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar
[11:11] Gavin.Hird I have applied a bunch of commits to the OS viewer
[11:11] Gavin.Hird And the resulting builds are here
[11:11] LaNani Sundara: awesome Gavin
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar thx Gavin
[11:12] JayR.Cela thanks Gavin :_)
[11:12] Gavin.Hird my pleasure
[11:13] LaNani Sundara: every available updated viewer for OpenSim is appreciated :)
[11:13] LaNani Sundara: the more the better :)
[11:13] Gavin.Hird so the next step is to get in a bunch of commits before Bento can be added
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar lot of work for bento?
[11:14] Gavin.Hird I think Bento is 300+ commits
[11:14] LaNani Sundara: ouch
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar ow
[11:14] LaNani Sundara: and how you know those commits are all ok?
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram so is Bento all or mostly viewer side then
[11:15] Gavin.Hird in addition animated mesh is merged in the Mac repository up to the point of the first beta
[11:15] Gavin.Hird and I have started adding the rest
[11:15] JayR.Cela I was testing Cool VL over the weekend a bit / it is being updated regularly / so far it works OK
[11:15] Gavin.Hird the Bento commits are all in the Mac repository and it works
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar is ani mesh all viewer?
[11:15] LaNani Sundara: awesom JayR
[11:16] Gavin.Hird ani mesh is server side too
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar is it in opensim already?
[11:16] Gavin.Hird no
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar any idea how much work that will be?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird Freaky says he has figured it out and working in his version
[11:17] Gavin.Hird so
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar wonders if he will share
[11:17] Gavin.Hird at some point he will I think is the idea
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar wonder if Ubit has looked at it
[11:18] Gavin.Hird it needs to go into the viewer code for it to not drift too far away from the LL code
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar it sounds like it has exciting possibilities
[11:18] Gavin.Hird it is great
[11:19] Leighton.Marjoram I agree Arielle
[11:19] Gavin.Hird you can rig something simple as a hen walking around
[11:19] Gavin.Hird or a door
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: oops you are all here and talking, and me looking to irc :)
[11:19] JayR.Cela haaa :_))))
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar something actually going on in irc?
[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Olympic lurking competition. :)
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: hehe
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: is andrew away this week?
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: plugh is arriving
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: ie andrew is arriving
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: well new on opensim.. just a few ossl i think
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: maybe we need to move the meeting time to 2:30 EST\
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: hmm some issues on mantis addressed
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: hmm about animesh.. not sure we will support that
[11:22] Arielle Popstar: oh no?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: we do have npcs
[11:22] Arielle Popstar: why not Ubit?
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks thinks his PDA needs something to remind it that it is supposed to remind me about the meeting. :P
[11:22] Gavin.Hird get your priorities right Ubit ;-)
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: im doing that Gavin :p
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: again, we do have npcs
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: do we need to bring on a dev who can code it?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: is not a question of "can code"
[11:23] Gavin.Hird NPCs and animated mesh are not the same
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: is wanting to..
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: but no decision still
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: ok well finding a dev who is wanting to?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: just telling
[11:24] Gavin.Hird Ask Freaky
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:24] Gavin.Hird he's got it figured he says
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: if i or other dev decides not to, that means NOT
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: what part of that are you not understanding ?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: gezzz
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: code is meaningless its jsut code
[11:25] Gavin.Hird it is only a fork away, hehe
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: How much work would it be to support animated mesh?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: sure.. forks can do what they want
[11:25] Gavin.Hird IDK Andrew, but Freaky said it was relatively straightforward
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: is there a potential conflict if it was added?>
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: im not talking about code.. that is .."details"
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: ok can you give us the reasoning so we can understand?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: already did, and also said it is not a final decision
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i may add it ( or someone else) just telling we may not
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: gezzz
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: the time of blind following LL is gone
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: we blindly follow core now?
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: ie you?
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well for me this meeting is over, bye
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: my bad
[11:29] Gavin.Hird not at all
[11:29] JayR Cela: comment's anyone or should we move on ?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird there is no reason to pout because a feature is wanted
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: yes know a few who are excited about it and already have product plans for it
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I was thinking of making a comment but I'll hold off instead.
[11:31] LaNani Sundara: :)
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that wasn't the problem.
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's move on.
[11:31] JayR Cela: I agree :_)
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: hmm
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: This week I updated the wiki page that lists the LSL constants. It is now up to date as of the version of OpenSim.
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: *catches up
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: *sighs
[11:32] JayR Cela: great Andrew thanks :_)
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: wiki updates :) great
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: really appreciate your time
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: The recent addition of some new OSSL functions means I have to go back and update that section of the wiki again.
[11:33] LaNani Sundara: new ossl hmm?
[11:33] Leighton.Marjoram thank you for keeping it up to date Andrew
[11:33] LaNani Sundara: actual new ones?
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't finished reviewing the latest set of changes but I noticed osDetectedCountry and osGetAgentCountry.
[11:34] LaNani Sundara: ah
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: There are also some additional string operations.
[11:34] LaNani Sundara: *nods
[11:34] Gavin.Hird I suppose those can be very misleading
[11:35] LaNani Sundara: so scripts using those will only work on new master version?
[11:35] Gavin.Hird depending on how the user connected
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, correct.
[11:35] LaNani Sundara: i knew it was correct :) just makes life more interesting
[11:35] LaNani Sundara: haha
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:35] Bernd.Steinhardt Oh * looks very interested to Andrew * I have to check the wiki page after the meeting
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: You will have to give me some time to get the pages added. They will be there before next meeting.
[11:36] LaNani Sundara: i wrote a few ossl functions that only work on my version
[11:36] LaNani Sundara: such is life
[11:36] Bernd.Steinhardt nods
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: cant be added to core?
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of functions have you added to your copy of code, LaNani?
[11:37] LaNani Sundara: idk if they want them :) just doing my thing
[11:38] LaNani Sundara: hmm like... GetBakedTexture
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, New functions can be added to core if they may be of general use.
[11:39] LaNani Sundara: osGetBakedTexture, Hyacinth us using it to make 1 layer clothes for the Ruth mesh body
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: Andrew, is not each member of core able to decide what goes in core?
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram they seem useful functions
[11:40] Gavin.Hird LL is implementing bakes on mesh for that purpose
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, The core devs can make and push code changes without consulting the other members of the core team. There are times when discussion about a feature may be warranted before inclusion.
[11:41] LaNani Sundara: :) we kinda have that already now Gavin
[11:41] LaNani Sundara: Hyacinth can show you :D
[11:41] Gavin.Hird yeah, but bakes on mesh is much more than avatar alone
[11:41] LaNani Sundara: of course
[11:41] Gavin.Hird apparently they struggle to get it working
[11:42] LaNani Sundara: rebaking mesh you wear would be nice
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: just wondering with Ubits implying he is the only one who will decide what can or cannot go in core
[11:42] LaNani Sundara: he did imply that earlier and on other occasions
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I think you misunderstood something.
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: no doubt Andrew
[11:43] LaNani Sundara: i am not here to push my code its fine
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit is the main person doing the coding so he is the person more likely to add a new feature to the code.
[11:44] Gavin.Hird and he is doing a great job
[11:44] LaNani Sundara: well, some of us may also be coding daily almost on opensim :)
[11:44] Gavin.Hird but it is also a vulnerability
[11:44] LaNani Sundara: yes he is doing a fine job
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, if you feel it would be a useful addition to the code you can make your case via the mailing list. If the code is already available that makes it easier to get included vs. a general wish list item that someone then has to code.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird or make a feature request via Mantis
[11:46] LaNani Sundara: *nods
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, true. The code can also be attached to the mantis as a patch.
[11:46] LaNani Sundara: :)
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: but then who has the say?
[11:46] Gavin.Hird you can comment on it and contribute to your hearts content
[11:47] Bill Blight: Proper patches and commit trails allow people to test the proposed features
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: It can be easier to discuss a feature on the mailing list instead of in a mantis report but discussions do sometimes take place in mantis.
[11:47] LaNani Sundara: yes Bill
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: has there been much communication of late from other core members?
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, it would depend on the proposed change. One of the core devs may accept it or it might require some discussion amongst the core team.
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, The core team has a private IRC channel where we talk about OpenSim issues.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: There is also a private mailing list.
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: o i c
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: not logged or put out for public consumption i take it
[11:51] Bill Blight: would not be very private if it was made public
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: no but questionable on an opensource project. Not that i know how others work
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: just seems somewhat contradfictory
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: hmm nah Arielle
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: the source is open
[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: A private forum for open source project devs isn't uncommon, and this has been the state of affairs for OpenSim pretty much since it's inception.
[11:53] LaNani Sundara: not going to request logs of IMs between core devs either :)
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: i suppose
[11:54] Gavin.Hird Arielle, also LL runs a LOT of private discussions and meetings behind the scenes before they publish the viewer source
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: just strikes me that for future reference it would be good to understand why a particular feature or direction was taken
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, there are some topics related to the project that should not be discussed in a public forum. I can't get give specific examples.
[11:55] LaNani Sundara: i think you are confusing open source with democracy
[11:55] Bill Blight: ditto
[11:55] Gavin.Hird I'd say the lack of even a rudimentary roadmap is the biggest challenge for OpenSim
[11:55] LaNani Sundara: true
[11:56] LaNani Sundara: what i would be interested in is Ubit's roadmap
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Roadmaps have their uses. They aren't always that useful.
[11:59] Bill Blight: Roadmaps are really hard to maintain, when you are playing follow the leader
[11:59] LaNani Sundara: ok but besides fishing bugs there must be some goals? i mean Yengine was made, why? was there a need or was it a hobby horse?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird Agreed Bill, but a roadmap would also say to what extent to follow the leader and where to diverge
[11:59] LaNani Sundara: just wondering
[12:00] Bill Blight: Oh I agree Gavin
[12:00] Gavin.Hird without guys like me we will just add stuff to the viewer I think might be useful
[12:00] LaNani Sundara: would be nice if the leader seemed to have a direction
[12:01] LaNani Sundara: Yengine is an example, it was made, in response to what need?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird ... or remove for that sake
[12:01] Sheera.Khan I read the backlog but maybe I missed the point: what are the arguments pro and contra animesh again? "It's a new feature in SL." and "we have NPCs instead" were the arguments I read
[12:02] Gavin.Hird yes and they do not fill the same purpose although they can overlap
[12:02] Bill Blight: I find it funny though regardless of the direction , people tend to rant and rave that core is not doing what "they" want, and just end up bitching at core ... Really I don't blame them for just wandering around , damned if they do, damned if they don;t
[12:02] LaNani Sundara: i am just asking a question
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: It is hard to know what to say when these meetings devolve in to what comes across more like a series of complaints about the project.
[12:02] LaNani Sundara: i am fine with the Yengine existing, i just wonder where it came from
[12:03] Bill Blight: really?
[12:03] Gavin.Hird I have wondered the same - why this particular scripting engine
[12:03] Gavin.Hird it just was there
[12:03] LaNani Sundara: yes?
[12:03] LaNani Sundara: is it a weird question
[12:03] Bill Blight: YEngine has a very long history, it was the XMR engine developed for DreamNation and purchased and used by AviNation
[12:03] LaNani Sundara: wasn't if more logical to "fix" whatever must have been wrong with xengine
[12:04] LaNani Sundara: ok... ty Bill
[12:04] Gavin.Hird but adding it seems to have added a series of incompatibilites
[12:04] Bill Blight: like what Gavin?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird all kinds of conflicts on HG transfers
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: One might just as easily ask why BulletSim and ubODE was added instead of fixing ODE.
[12:05] Bill Blight: prfft
[12:05] Bill Blight: yeah
[12:05] Gavin.Hird or even between regions with different engines
[12:05] LaNani Sundara: yes one might Andrew :)
[12:05] Bill Blight: My vote would be to remove XEngine then
[12:05] LaNani Sundara: fine
[12:05] Bill Blight: YEngine is a lot faster
[12:05] Gavin.Hird I am asking that question too Andrew
[12:06] Gavin.Hird right, so it can fail faster
[12:06] Bill Blight: lol
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: hmm
[12:06] Bill Blight: NO
[12:06] Bill Blight: wowo
[12:06] Bill Blight: wow, beginning to see why Ubit bailed
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Some fixes can be applied to what is already there. Sometimes you need to start over and make something new to do an existing job. The problem with something can be too ingrained in its design for any sort of simple fix.
[12:06] Gavin.Hird what I mean when having very few resources, adding more complexity is probalby not the best idea
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I know. Meeting like this happen every now and then.
[12:07] Leighton.Marjoram I cannot understand how a simple and genuine question of why a certain thing exists has descended into defensive posturing
[12:07] LaNani Sundara: ty leighton
[12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: YEngine has a long pedigree with much more dev love given to it than XEngine. Melanie created XEngine, and it's served us well, but even she will tell you that it isn't all it could be, and that other than bug fixes, it hasn't been omptimzed or improved since it's creation much.
[12:07] JayR Cela: I agree :_(
[12:07] LaNani Sundara: it was just a question
[12:08] Leighton.Marjoram I am very interested in the answer as I do not know
[12:08] Bill Blight: I'm trying to figure out how giving more options, and OPTIONS they are, get people so twisted, don't use them then
[12:08] LaNani Sundara: twisted?
[12:08] LaNani Sundara: who says i would not use it?
[12:08] TG.Lucan So we can use YEngine, no side effects?
[12:08] Leighton.Marjoram not a comment on should it be there just curious where it came from
[12:08] Bill Blight: well ubODE is a good example people freaked out but it's an option
[12:08] LaNani Sundara: asking why it is there does not mean i do not want it
[12:09] LaNani Sundara: am not freaking here Bill :)
[12:09] Gavin.Hird people usually freak out when a new feature introduce incompatibility of existing content
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Two people have answered the question about YEngine.
[12:09] JayR Cela: haa just take a look at Windows 10
[12:09] Gavin.Hird both ubODE and Yengine does that to some extent
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: This has all happened before. :) The DotNet engine had it's quirks. XEngine has it's quirks. YEngine will almost certainly have some differences, and for the better. Innovation/improvement sometimes means breaking changes.
[12:10] Bill Blight: I can't run my windows 3.1 programs on windows 10 either, times they do change
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: You can only maintain backwards compatability with things for so long.
[12:10] LaNani Sundara: thats a good example :) so why not remove ODE
[12:10] Leighton.Marjoram so they are evolutions then andrew
[12:11] Gavin.Hird one thing is what it does for programmers, another is what it does for users and creators
[12:11] Leighton.Marjoram building on and better than what was there before
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Leighton, right. One tries to make something better but it isn't always possible to make it 100% compatible with the old way.
[12:11] Bill Blight: With that mentality , everybody should be able to still use their 90's cellphones on modern networks
[12:12] Gavin.Hird AND THEY CAN
[12:12] Leighton.Marjoram that makes sense to me my curiousity is satisfied
[12:12] Gavin.Hird sorry about the caps
[12:12] Bill Blight: no they can't
[12:12] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:12] Bill Blight: 90's cellphones used analog tech, they are not compatible with modern digital networks
[12:12] Marcus Llewellyn: With XEngine, you simply cannot take a SL LSL script and expect that it will work. There are minor differences how scope is handled, operators perform, etc. YEngine *should* actually improve that situation.
[12:12] Gavin.Hird I can still fire up an OLD GSM Nokia and connect to the network here
[12:13] Bill Blight: we saw that with TV here in the US, analog TV went away
[12:13] Gavin.Hird maybe not in the US
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: The other parallel to phones is using your old analog TV to receive the new digital based TV signals.
[12:13] LaNani Sundara: yes but in that example, you would also say why keep old ODE around, if ubODE replaces it or why keep Xengine when Yengine replaces it?
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you beat me to it. :)
[12:14] Bill Blight: You know why Lanani, because people would cry if you forced them to change
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: so i conclude Yengine is not being developed as a replacement of Xengine
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: The ODE code may get removed. Just because something new is added it doesn't always mean you immediately remove the old thing.
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: fine :)
[12:14] TG.Lucan I am willing to switch to YEngine and fix scripts that incomparable, but when do we know it incompatible or a bug?
[12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Because OpenSim is meant to be, in part modular, allowing for choice. A grid may need to move cautiously before migrating to a new script or physics engine. This buys them time to catch up.
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: ty for the answers :)
[12:14] Bill Blight: it won't compile
[12:15] Bill Blight: mostly syntax things that Xengine let slip through
[12:15] TG.Lucan that does not answer the question
[12:15] TG.Lucan i said fix scripts
[12:15] Leighton.Marjoram they seem to overlap and diverge so removing the old would be counter productive until the replacement is at least comparable with it
[12:15] Bill Blight: YEngine is running here
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: YEngine may eventually become the default scripting engine the same way BulletSim became the default physics engine over ODE. It takes time. YEngine still needs some work as it doesn't currently handle some things that XEngine does.
[12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: My understanding (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is the YEngine seeks to have 1:1 parity with SL's LSL, while extending it and being faster. If it doesn't work in SL, you've found a bug.
[12:17] Gavin.Hird As long as you can tinker with a script, you will probalby be ok, but the issue is those users who have purchased commercial no mod scripts
[12:17] Gavin.Hird adding a new engine may make them stranded completely
[12:17] Bill Blight: ummm I"d like to know what it doesn't handle? Only thing it does not seem to handle to me, is bad syntax
[12:17] TG.Lucan Thanks Marcus
[12:18] LaNani Sundara: :) talking to Ubit
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: That would depend on whether the person/company that made commercially available script was willing to support it.
[12:18] Gavin.Hird right
[12:18] Gavin.Hird backward compatibility is the core issue
[12:19] Bill Blight: but not a reason to NOT move forward
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: We survived the Great Sit Placement Change. Creators howled, but they rolled with it. This is no different.
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, IIRC, one thing YEngine doesn't handle properly is running scripts in an instance that runs multiple regions.
[12:19] Gavin.Hird move forward but seek to make the move as graceful as possible for the current user base and content
[12:19] Bill Blight: and we are still dealing with: ".9x broke my mesh!"
[12:20] JayR Cela: haaa :))
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Bill.
[12:21] LaNani Sundara: [12:19] Ubit Umarov: and answer is X engine has 2 much unfixable flaws
[12:21] LaNani Sundara: there you go
[12:21] Bill Blight: Ok I'm gonna put this pretty blunt, but I don't really care, "At some point it does become the users responsibility to NOT sit on their asses and be stuck in a time 10 years ago"
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour. If there isn't something else OpenSim related to talk about I'm going to call this meeting to a close.

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