Chat log from the meeting on 2017-10-17

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[11:09] Remona Stormborn: we need voice?
[11:09] Christopher.Colosi Is there an agenda?
[11:09] Selby.Evans we dont need voice
[11:09] Gavin.Hird no voice
[11:09] Sheera Khan: Voice is difficult to transcribe for the log of the session ...
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: And since version I have not been able to get voice working in OSGrid
[11:10] Gavin.Hird it works, but they have changed the servers, so viewers must be updated
[11:11] Gavin.Hird I have the most recent code and am conencted to voice
[11:11] KentDavis Edman: I have MacBook Pro and some one did help me install on OpenSIM but did not finish anyway
[11:11] KentDavis Edman: I don't know how to do OpenSIM install and running
[11:12] Gavin.Hird it is pretty easy on a MBP Kent
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I made it in this week. Last week direct logins to the grid were disabled.
[11:12] Kayaker Magic flüstert: Anybody know why?
[11:12] Remona Stormborn: I'm trying to get opensim on my system but haven't even been able to get port forwarding to work. Ugh
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram quick question can everyone see me ok.
[11:13] Remona Stormborn: doesn't see me =/
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: HA! Port forwarding is your router, not opensim!
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram I think my mesh maybe MIA
[11:13] Gavin.Hird I see some mesh items
[11:13] Remona Stormborn: only limbs for me Leighton
[11:13] KentDavis Edman: Me full mesh bunny.
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: has tuts for most setups
[11:13] Remona Stormborn: but I'm across the room
[11:13] Gavin.Hird head, hands feet
[11:13] Sheera.Khan @Leigh, you seem to have a lot of alpha mask
[11:13] Gavin.Hird nothing else
[11:14] Selby.Evans Leighton -- I see only head arms and feet
[11:14] James atLLOUD: sorry Leighton, just head and arms and .. feet?
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram darn it
[11:14] Gavin.Hird try rebake
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram I could say that was the look I was going for ... lol
[11:14] Remona Stormborn: a strip of belly though
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: start of your halloween costume? :)
[11:14] Remona Stormborn: just no clothing
[11:14] Gavin.Hird the emperors new clothes?
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram story of my life Remona *giggle*
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Arielle is just hollow clothing and a head for me.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I seem to remember reading something about problems people have with NAT and/or port forwarding with OpenSim.
[11:15] Remona Stormborn: =D~`,
[11:15] Remona Stormborn: Life: a series of problems to solve
[11:15] KentDavis Edman: Some one did help me OpenSIM install on my MacBook Pro but did not finish process. I don't know how to do
[11:15] Remona Stormborn: Yes, one issue is xfinity
[11:15] Gavin.Hird and now this WPA2 issue...
[11:15] Sheera.Khan IPv6 is another set of issues at the router ...
[11:16] Remona Stormborn: they don't have nat loopback
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Remona, there will be several ports you need to forward depending on how you are running OpenSim.
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: could try this
[11:16] Remona Stormborn: (don't assume I have any idea what the hay that even is)
[11:16] KentDavis Edman: Ariella did you mean Macintosh this link?
[11:16] Selby.Evans Arielle looks normal to me -- Just high complexity
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: no it is an auto opensim installer that attempts to port forward ports with \Upnp
[11:17] Gavin.Hird That link does not work on his MBP
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: I am complex
[11:17] Remona Stormborn: I've got them 'open' on the modem interface and set up in the firewall rules but still not working
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: do you have a router behind the modem?
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Remona, are you running in grid mode or as a standalone?
[11:18] KentDavis Edman: Me yes I have TWC Spectrum but kind Macintosh
[11:18] Remona Stormborn: No, just an Arris TG862 from xfinity and nothing else
[11:18] Selby.Evans I see Chris behind his chair. I wont speculate on what he is doing.
[11:18] Remona Stormborn: the guide for the arris is, apparently, not up to date as it's screenshots don't show all the settings the interface actually has
[11:19] Remona Stormborn: So that's one issue
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Isn't version the current release version? If so the WEB page is not up to date, it shows
[11:19] Christopher.Colosi Or hiding from all the comment threads I was dealing with this week.
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: No. The latest release is 0.9.0-post-fixes.
[11:20] Remona Stormborn: It has a line to enter Server IPv6 which I left blank, not knowing what goes there exactly.
[11:20] KentDavis Edman: I have
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: OSGrid current download is
[11:20] Christopher.Colosi Anyone able to summarize what is in Post-fixes so far?
[11:20] Christopher.Colosi Anything important?
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, that was the version label used on the development code before the release of 0.9
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: That label should not have been used as it has just confused some people.
[11:21] kizmut Smit: OSGrid is always bleeding edge.
[11:22] Christopher.Colosi Also, have been clearing up some background on the land-pass sales which broke some money modules in 0.9.0 and 0.9.1, and some misconceptions on the patch I submitted to viewers to improve currency support. Heard some of those may have come out of this meeting, so I'm here to answer any questions and am happy to summarize if folks want, though I don't want to take over any pre-set agenda.
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: I want to hear it Christopher!
[11:23] Selby.Evans no preset agenda
[11:23] Remona Stormborn: Here's a patchwork of screenshots of my stuff for getting port forwarding working. If anyone sees anything messed up feel free to say so?
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: though would be nice if Ubit was here
[11:23] KentDavis Edman: Andrew; I don't know how to use OpenSIM and I am use Macintosh.
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: he does often come a bit late
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll poke Ubit on IRC and see if he can attend this meeting
[11:24] Gavin.Hird Kent, check your IM
[11:24] KentDavis Edman: Ok Andrew
[11:24] Gavin.Hird I gave you instructions
[11:24] Christopher.Colosi Some people thought that the viewer patch broke some money modules for 0.9.0 and 0.9.1. The viewer patch doesn't change any core code. So, this is the first misconception and what it is regarding is an update core made around land-pass sales, so I'll explain that first (again, this has nothing to do with the viewer patch).
[11:24] KentDavis Edman: Gavin; sure because I have zoom in I have Usher Syndrome.
[11:25] Gavin.Hird Nobody thought that the viewer patch broke some money modules
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: do you have a link to the commit Chris?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird the landpass changes did
[11:26] Christopher.Colosi People believed that I requested a change to the money module interface (breaking compatibility with other modules) and that core was happy to implement something to benefit Gloebit. Nothing could be further from the truth. So, I will briefly provide background on how land-pass sales developed. I also spoke on Mal's show this weekend, so you can watch that as well.
[11:26] Christopher.Colosi Regarding links. Most comments were on an HG Biz article
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Remona, That image doesn't show anything useful to me. Are you running OpenSim in standalone mode?
[11:27] Christopher.Colosi
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: on the HGB article i saw no links to opensim commits which would be helpful for backround info
[11:27] Christopher.Colosi Here's the link to my summary of the viewer patch -
[11:28] Remona Stormborn: using the osgrid version getting set up to hook up here on osgrid
[11:28] Christopher.Colosi That medium post includes a link to the patch and to the Firestorm jira for anyone who wants to dig into the code
[11:28] Remona Stormborn: but opensim isn't installed yet as i haven't been able to get ports open for it
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: but what opensim commit messed with your patches?
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Remona, you need to port forward the port used by your region.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird Chris is mixing up a bit here
[11:29] Christopher.Colosi Hi Arielle. No opensim commit messed with my viewer patch. There is an OpenSim commit which broke all money modules. Gloebit quickly released a patch for our customers. I'll find you that link in a second. It's in a comment.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird the viewer patch has no influence whatsoever on opensim server
[11:30] Gavin.Hird it is relatively straightforward to implement in most viwers
[11:30] Christopher.Colosi
[11:30] Gavin.Hird the land passes changes that made it's way into 0.9 and 0.9.1 killed all money modules
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: ok thats what i was looking for. Ty
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Remona, have a look at
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: and
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, yes. The extra function for the money API.
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: KentDavis, We can come back to your issues in a bit. I want to cut back on the number of topics being discussed at the same time.
[11:33] KentDavis Edman: Andrew sure
[11:34] KentDavis Edman: Also Gavin IM me I got it.
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: Hit enter more often Christopher!
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: hehe yes please  :)
[11:34] Gavin.Hird Chris is writing a novel...
[11:34] KentDavis Edman: smile
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: preparing for inbound wall of text
[11:35] Leighton.Marjoram chuckle @ Gavin
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: maybe he crashed?
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm a bit confused by "Gloebit users to do complicated coding and configuration for their grids and regions to support various money modules" in the hypergrid business article.
[11:35] Gavin.Hird that is a Gloebit only issue
[11:36] Gavin.Hird that has little to do with the server code
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: There is just one extra API call in 0.9 vs 0.8.2 so a minor change needed to any money module to support 0.9 and no change needed in configuration.
[11:36] Gavin.Hird The problem Andrew is nobody knew about it
[11:37] Gavin.Hird so it was release without anyone even having tested it
[11:37] Gavin.Hird it simply killed the money modules
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: The release notes are incomplete.
[11:37] Christopher.Colosi asking for it). Ultimately, I had to patch Gloebit and probably had a 2 day implementation turn into two weeks of work due to core making these changes. That's life and that's their decision. That change did break compatibility with money modules and is pretty easy to fix if anyone is still maintaining the module you use. Gloebit did not request these changes, but we were the impetus because we were implementing a feature for a user and didn't like the idea of us being the only module with that feature.
[11:37] Christopher.Colosi So, quickly to summarize: Some of my customers requested that I implement land-pass sales. I did so completely in the money module without modifying core, but I let core know I did this via opensim-dev. Core did not like the idea of how I did this, so they rushed to implement this flow (which was really just an event thrown on the server until now) in core to pre-empt my release. I tried to warn them that this would not be as simple as they thought and asked them to get other input and properly design this. They did not wait. The initial implementation created a flow which had a reasonable risk that users might not be charged but might receive the land pass. I informed them that this was unacceptable and would not implement this flow. I made a couple of suggestions for how to fix this. One, using events, would not have broken the interface. They chose to go with a new money module interface which broke all money modules. I was pretty much the lone voice trying to prevent this
[11:37] Christopher.Colosi and for other reasons I won't try to guess at.
[11:37] Gavin.Hird wow
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram holy moly <gets reading glasses>
[11:37] Gavin.Hird Chris, shall we try to sort this without writing walls of text?
[11:38] Gavin.Hird 1. You submitted a viewer patch. the patch is fine, some people (like me) asked questions about it. I did because I maintain a viewer
[11:38] Christopher.Colosi Sorry, and I'm happy to speak to specific technical details if people have questions.
[11:39] Christopher.Colosi Yes, so that was all separate from this patch, but I felt was worth clearing up. I can briefly speak to the patch which is referenced in the Medium post I linked to.
[11:39] Gavin.Hird 2. you seem to have initiated a change request to core to get land passes to work with Gloebit
[11:39] Christopher.Colosi Made a viewer patch. Hypergrid TPing should now update the helper-uri and the currency symbol to the new grid you are on, which didn't happen before.
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: ok Chris maybe just hold up
[11:39] Gavin.Hird core did a bit of toing and froing and the end was a series of commits that in general broke all money modules
[11:40] Christopher.Colosi Also, any money module can provide a region override to these. Gloebit does. The viewer will now update to these when a user enters the region.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: what commits did broke money modles ?
[11:40] Gavin.Hird all the landpass commit
[11:40] Gavin.Hird the sum of them
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: they do need update to 0.9
[11:41] Gavin.Hird well, it was not communicated to anyone
[11:41] Christopher.Colosi This makes land sales and buy-currency flows work without an XML-RPC server and php files and means that these can be handled properly in every region on a multi-currency grid.
[11:41] Gavin.Hird AND no time was given for them to test before release
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that is known by them
[11:41] Gavin.Hird you don't fuck with grids money systems
[11:41] Gavin.Hird simple as that Ubit
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: NO
[11:41] Christopher.Colosi It should not break any money modules nor cause any lag. It's pretty simple. I submitted it to FireStorm and Cinder said she is adding it to Singularity and Alchemy
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: grids need to update
[11:41] Gavin.Hird update what?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: and use F word with your mother of what else .. not here
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit: The commit in question is ->
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: i don't see any mantis issue on that
[11:43] Gavin.Hird maybe because people just are realizing?
[11:43] Christopher.Colosi Hey Ubit, regarding land pass sales and breaking money modules, there is nothing for you to change. I was just clearing up history as some people thought my viewer patch did this and others believed I requested these changes to core and that core was showing favoritism to Gloebit when it implemented them.
[11:43] Gavin.Hird and frankly I have given up
[11:43] Gavin.Hird because such changes MUST be announced and tested way in advance
[11:44] Gavin.Hird so I can't be bothered to file any more Mantises
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: so any grids currently using money modules are on old releases?
[11:45] Gavin.Hird I just reverted the commits
[11:45] Gavin.Hird for my little part of the world
[11:45] Christopher.Colosi Regarding giving notice, I think that Gavin is right that module interface changes should be messaged in the future (though I don't know where/how). This change was also made in 0.9.1-dev and pulled into 0.9.0-release, which is done now, but I wouldn't recommend doing that again in the future.
[11:46] Gavin.Hird it is so against every release procedure I stand for, so I totally agree with Chris
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: so what is the solution?
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: other then pulling out the commit?
[11:48] Gavin.Hird stick a fork in the server and get some proper development procedures in place
[11:48] Gavin.Hird I seriously mean it
[11:48] Christopher.Colosi Arielle, Gloebit released a patch, so we work with 0.9.0 and 0.9.1. I can't speak to other modules.
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: a patch for the viewer Chris?
[11:48] Gavin.Hird why do we even discuss the viewer?
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: just trying to understand it all Gavin
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Would you have been ok with the change in the money module API if it had been noted in the release notes? That would have "announced it".
[11:49] Gavin.Hird sure Arielle
[11:49] Christopher.Colosi Sorry Arielle. Gloebit released a patch to its add-on module for the server (core) to work with the new interface function. For other modules, they need to implement this new function, even if they don't have it do anything other than return false.
[11:49] Gavin.Hird no it must be announced way before release
[11:49] Gavin.Hird that there will be changes
[11:50] Gavin.Hird that module makers need to test
[11:50] Gavin.Hird ensure there is interaction between the module developers and core
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: sounds reasonable considering it is money and can lead to some bad problems
[11:50] Gavin.Hird and that the modules are ready for release
[11:51] Gavin.Hird as I said you don't fuck with people's money systems
[11:51] Christopher.Colosi For the viewer patch, it is intended to improve as much as it can as simply as it can. I don't see any way that it will cause any problems for anyone, but it should drastically improve currency support for hypergrid travelers and for anyone on a grid which enables multiple money modules. It uses communication protocols already in place and which had been suggested by cinder. It's not intended to be a long-term redesign. It is a short term fix.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and money modules will need to change in near future, with regions ssl suport, if we do move into it
[11:53] Gavin.Hird fine Ubit, but do communicate it upfront
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: stop giving orders pls
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: don't remember you ever paying me to do so
[11:54] Gavin.Hird this discussion is pointless
[11:54] Gavin.Hird you'll have a good evening
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yes it is
[11:54] Bill Blight: I look at it his way , and sorry I know it is unpopular , if a commercial entity wants to use FREE OPEN SOURCE software to make money the commercial people need to adapt, not the other way around
[11:55] Remona Stormborn: nods
[11:56] Remona Stormborn: and, help to work on the solutions
[11:56] JayR.Cela RedHat / Suse
[11:56] JayR.Cela Apple
[11:56] Remona Stormborn: rather than demand that others do so
[11:56] Bill Blight: Yes JayR all those companies took FREE software and made it work for them, not the other way aoround
[11:56] JayR.Cela they are selling their service and expertise / not the software
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: It is close to the top of the hour. Let's table this discussion for now. Kent is having some issues with installing OpenSim.
[11:58] Christopher.Colosi Agreed.
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: well i just want to know if there is something that needs to be done to have a working gloebits or is it resolved?
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Kent, can you state your problem again?
[11:58] Christopher.Colosi If people have questions regarding the viewer patch, they can contact me at
[11:59] Bill Blight: Gloebits work fine
[11:59] Bill Blight: use them daily
[11:59] Christopher.Colosi Yes, it does. Thanks Bill.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: ok so this is all just a run down on the history?
[11:59] kizmut Smit: Gavin addressed Kent's concerns in IM.
[12:00] Christopher.Colosi I hope the patch is released soon in the various viewers.
[12:00] Bill Blight: Mainly the issue is, people don't like change, and wrong or right on the land pass commits, people are just unhappy that THEY have to make some changes to support .9x and .9x did not mold itself to work as it did in the past ... Things change, technology changes, most Windows 3.1 programs don't run on Windows 10 either ..
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: another money module was waiting for our release to suport it also
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: KentDavis, wb. Your issue(s) have been addressed via IM?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: and of course any one runnning custom modules, sure will need to update them..
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: if someone does that, then sure knows about it
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: so the issue was the unexpectedness of the commit?
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Kent, ok. You can also get additional help later via the IRC channels.
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: lbsa plaza there is help too Kent
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: Foxxy Bode especially
[12:04] KentDavis Edman: really IRC channels I don't know. I am not good english myself. I am full deaf and sign language.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, that sounds like the main issue with the change.
[12:05] KentDavis Edman: LBSA Plaza yes I did ask them no one body been around . Andrew and Gavin will help me for Macintosh not Windows.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: well more issues?
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: looked any more at Lanani's changes?
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: What changes are those, Arielle?
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: they where not based on good information
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: she made some changes so mesh clothing and stuff rezz faster
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: works great for her
[12:08] KentDavis Edman: I am bunny mesh already
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well sorry about my reaction a bit ago
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: i just don't like arriving to a place and reading that we are F** people things
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: oh we just chalked it to a CRASH
[12:10] Bill Blight: It just comes down to people hate to change, and when things change even when they are expected, people just hate to change ...
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I am working with someone that is using OpenSim for a grid that is currently private. It is using 0.8.2 and they are testing 0.9. They are stating they are finding differences in behaviour. I'm asking them to document what they are finding so I can then check if they have found real issues or not.
[12:11] Kayaker Magic: Ubit, were you talking about Lanni's changes when you said "they were not based on good information"?
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: There was a change to the module system some time ago that broke a lot of modules. They all needed to be updated.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't recall if that one was "announced".
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: lanani did a few minor changes and shared with me to possible use
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Stuff happens sometimes with development code.
[12:11] Bill Blight: You can't want to advance Opensimulators technology, and still use 10 year old tech at the same time, things change
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: LaNaNi Sundara
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: thats what arielle was asking about
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to set aside some time to get the 0.9 release notes updated. I've been spending a lot of time on a personal project so updating the release notes keeps getting delayed.
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: what was not good information?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: i did discuss that with her arielle
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: ok
[12:13] Kayaker Magic: I have noticed a decrease in the speed of llList2Xxx calls again, but it may be caused by switching to a different version of mono. I will investigate and turn in a mantis.
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, which mono are you using?
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: dont remember changing those
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: hmm or i did, but only relevant if using appdomains, that you should not
[12:15] Kayaker Magic: I installed a new server Ubuntu 16.04 and it came with mono 4.2(?) which ran opensim ok but could not compile it.
[12:15] Bill Blight: 4.2 has issues ...
[12:15] Bill Blight: the first release that is
[12:16] Kayaker Magic: So I switched to the latest mono 5.2(?) and now I can compile opensim but llList2float calls have slowed down.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: define slow down.. order of magnitude?
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, mono 4.2 is one of the bad ones in the 4 series.
[12:17] Bill Blight: 4.2 is horrible in the mono world
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, it is just conversion to float that is slower? What about other List conversions?
[12:18] Bill Blight: I use a lot of llList2X type functions and I have not noticed a major decrease in speed, but I'm not building huge lists, so it could just be that
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if there was a change in conversion of floats that is more noticable with llList2float.
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: No, all the llList2Xxx fuctions are slow, llList2float was just an example.
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: did you forgot appdomains active again? :)
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok
[12:20] Kayaker Magic: I think apdomains is off my default, I am going to try on nd off
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: The setting of AppDomain makes a big difference.
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, keep up posted on what you find regarding llList2*. Is there an open Mantis about the problem?
[12:27] Kayaker Magic: No, the last ones I submitted were closed as solved.
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Hit me up on IRC or via Skype about this one. I can run some tests to check timing of the functions.
[12:29] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I asked you for help about switching between mono version, but I haven't gotten that working yet :(
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I've updated a grid to mono 5.2 so I'm also using that on my own machine.

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