Chat log from the meeting on 2017-08-01

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[11:01] Selby.Evans Ubit came to the Kitely meeting Sunday. Answered a bunch of questions.
[11:02] Selby.Evans about mesh
[11:02] Gavin.Hird I get there is a transcript?
[11:02] Gavin.Hird guess
[11:02] Selby.Evans Probably -- I don't have one -- You want one?
[11:03] Gavin.Hird I'd take a look at it if it was published but no worries
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: mesh has been a hot topic the last week or two
[11:03] Gavin.Hird it has
[11:03] Selby.Evans I will try to get one if anybody wants
[11:05] Sheera Khan: I would like one too ;-)
[11:05] Selby.Evans yes -- I am still trying to get an article.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird The main thing now is to ascertain people that Bulletsim is the default on what will be the next release
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are tossing copies of it around might as well toss me one too.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird and that ubODE is optional
[11:06] Gavin.Hird Did any of you log in to Sansar yet?
[11:06] Selby.Evans will try to get chat log an will pass it around
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: i did
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Sansar? Was that the name of SL2?
[11:07] Gavin.Hird I didn't - no viewer for me
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: yes Selby
[11:07] Selby.Evans I see articles -- Fred did
[11:07] George Equus: Very slow rez tonight...
[11:07] JayR.Cela no the current viewer is Windows only :_(
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, oh. If the only viewer is just for Windows that counts me out too unless I use my laptop. I don't like using the laptop to go in to a grid. It tends to be hard on a machine.
[11:09] Selby.Evans Danko Whitfield blogged about visit
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby was saying you had attended the meeting in Kitely and answered questions about mesh.
[11:13] Selby.Evans Ubit -- thank for visiting the Kitely meeting Sunday -- very useful. Cleared up things for people
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yes my pleasure to be there
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: oh Core PR
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: and Melanie and Marcus interview
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: getting the word out
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we get too deep in to todays discussions I will make an announcement.
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know how many of you noticed but the osgrid welcome message is announcing that OSG10B is on this weekend.
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: That is the 10th birthday celebrations for this grid.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Should be a number of events for people to attend and special displays to check out. I don't have any other details.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: If I can get a hold of nebadon I'll see if he has any other information. If not, check the osgrid website for details.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird 10 years - soon getting into the teens!
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: you can find osg10b regions on map also
[11:18] Gavin.Hird Congratulation!!
[11:18] Gavin.Hird My real OSG avatar is about 8 1/2 years
[11:18] Selby.Evans Ubit -- is this advice correct?
For existing objects not working right, make them phantom and put invisible prims where collisions are needed

For new objects imported, Relevant advice from Collada wiki.
As of begin of February 2013, when uploading a mesh, do not use steps 2 and 3 in the "physics" tab of the mesh upload panel because it is breaking physics so if using them, your object will be as phantom and you will see a "[MESH]: No recognized physics mesh found in mesh asset....." in the simulator console.
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm about the same age here, Gavin.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: collada reference is not usefull
[11:20] Gavin.Hird My first inventory was uploaded with SI those first days... just to get me clothed.
[11:20] dj phil: LOD from file is on step 2 Selby ... and can be used
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, why not? The collada format is still what is used for upload.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: unless you are a creator debugging collada itself
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: viewers do parse it.. end result has nothing to do with collada
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked the wiki page. It just says to skip step 2 (on the physics tab) in the troubleshooting section.
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: That wiki page needs an overhaul.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: think i already told this to you some 3 times already andrew :p
[11:22] Selby.Evans I need instructions on correct uploading for creators --
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, the end result has nothing to do with Collada but it is the format used for files uploaded.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: no meshs are more viewer upload settings.. in world use, and creation tools to achive that
[11:24] dj phil: LOD from file can be used Andrew (and it is step 2). So do not say do not use step 2 but be more accurate
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, If you don't want the Collada references on that wiki page you can update it. :)
[11:24] Gavin.Hird upload instructions are pretty simple: make mesh + physics model. On upload use both and don't do analysis
[11:24] dj phil: Heheh Ubit is a Wiki Lover :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: me updatind wiki with my excelent en ? :P
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil, I'm not the one saying skip step 2. Ubit, and Bully(?) were talking about that on IRC the other day.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird or you can use the lower LODs, but still don't do analysis
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Step 2 is the one about analying the file.
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: oh i thought the physics model was in how you configured the physics tab
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: so it is a seperate file
[11:25] dj phil: Gavin Effectively the button "Analysis" is mainly not to be used (on step 2)
[11:25] Gavin.Hird it is a separate dae file containing the low resolution collision model
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: really andrew, you still don't understand that, and this is going to be another meeting about meshes ??
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: Analyze is for Havok only
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Using the original file as the physics mesh is also not the best idea. It can result in a heavy burden on the viewer as it would have way more triangles than needed for physics.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird we should hide it in the UI in the viewers
[11:26] Gavin.Hird when logged into OpenSim
[11:26] Gavin.Hird It depends Andrew
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: well it is a complicated topic
[11:26] dj phil: Yes Arielle, is a separate file
[11:26] Gavin.Hird if you have super simple models, you can use the original file
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, if you want people to stop talking about mesh then you need to update the wiki page or find someone who knows the proper details who can update that page with the correct information.
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: would be nice if there was a flow chart graphically reperesenting the steps between the viewer and the sim and database
[11:27] dj phil: Yes you can use the original but you need to remove all materials from this file
[11:27] Gavin.Hird why would you need that Arielle?
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: because i am a visual person
[11:28] dj phil: Arielle, i agree with you, pictures speaks more than words
[11:28] Gavin.Hird for the users what happens inside the server is completely irrelevant
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: it is how i learn and retain things
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: when i can picture it
[11:28] Gavin.Hird they need to know how to make the mesh and physics model and get it uploaded
[11:28] Arielle Popstar flüstert: thats why i am in virtual worlds  :)
[11:29] Selby.Evans Reason for talking is conflicting advice
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: i think though the main question for me is:
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: will Bullet continue to be functional as it was with mesh in .8.2.1
[11:30] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:31] Gavin.Hird exactly identical
[11:31] Gavin.Hird with a couple bug fixes added
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: so the ability of bullet to read the visual model to ascertain the physic will not be broken?
[11:31] dj phil: Thanks for the work on autobackup. Now in gives information (debug) on the "defective" files. This is really very useful for correcting defective mesh problems among others ... So thank you Ubit!
[11:31] Gavin.Hird not at all
[11:32] Gavin.Hird all my meshes on 0.9.1 dev work exactly the same with bullet as it did on 0.8.2
[11:32] Gavin.Hird with ubODE they don't necessarily
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: well i just wondered fom Mels interview
[11:33] Gavin.Hird TBH Mel was very arrogant there
[11:33] Gavin.Hird no repsect for peoples creations
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: no
[11:34] Gavin.Hird but she did stress one thing; Bullet is the default on the upcoming release
[11:34] Gavin.Hird so thing should work the same
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: but there is hope she will find the app she wrote which can convert the mesh files from the database to an object file so it can be reuploaded
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, that hasn't changed, Gavin.
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: though i sort of thought viewers could do that already
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: actually Marcus was very clear on the meshes issue
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: on that interview
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: clear but imo incorrect that it is the uploaders fault
[11:36] Gavin.Hird She was talking about exporting the mesh from a viewer to OBJ or DAE and re-uploading
[11:36] Gavin.Hird which is doable if you don't have the original
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: as it is the only way mesh could be uploaded in past
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: it was uploaders fault and only uploaders fault
[11:36] Gavin.Hird the problem is you get an often badly triangulated mesh
[11:36] dj phil: Reupload have problem Gavin ?
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: no, bullet reads the viewable model by default instead of any physics file
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: NO
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: this was confirmed by a couple of testers
[11:37] dj phil: i don't have problem with that ...
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: bullet will read the physics mesh if is there
[11:37] Gavin.Hird no problem reuploading, but you risk getting a mesh back that is tringulated twice
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: only if it missing it will look for a LOD
[11:37] Gavin.Hird and you still need to make a physics model for it
[11:38] dj phil: ha oki Gavin :p
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: hmm what are you talking about gavin ??
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: again, conflicting information
[11:38] Gavin.Hird and OBJ or DAE export from the viewer does not preserve the physics mesh
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: triangulated twice? what are you talking about ?
[11:38] Gavin.Hird it only gives you the mesh itself
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ahh export issues?
[11:38] dj phil: Yep, i know that Gav (just forget lol)
[11:39] dj phil: ty for remembering
[11:39] Gavin.Hird if you export a mesh, Ubit, you get a tringulated model, not quads
[11:39] dj phil: Hehe ubit like triangles too
[11:39] Gavin.Hird un re-upload you (particularly if you had it in the modeller) risk it gets trinagulated again on upload
[11:39] dj phil: He say to me, work in blender with triangles grrrrr!
[11:40] Gavin.Hird tris in any modeler is a nightmare
[11:40] dj phil: We work with triangles ??? Seriously !!!
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Many 3D programs use triangular meshes. I know Blender can use quads but when it exports the model as dae I think it uses triangles.
[11:41] dj phil: That different Andrew
[11:41] Gavin.Hird Blender is not state of the art Andrew
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: viewers do not work with quads ever
[11:41] Gavin.Hird no renderers do
[11:41] dj phil: And Tri and Quad are always an options
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: not on uploaded meshs
[11:42] Gavin.Hird which is why they get trinagulated on upload
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: meshes.. they are tris only
[11:42] Gavin.Hird the prims are tris too at render time
[11:42] dj phil: You can triangulate just before import Ubit ... if you say viewer don't like quad
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: and ppl should remove quads on the 3d tool
[11:42] dj phil: But viewer don't convert quad to tri propely ?
[11:42] Gavin.Hird do not triangulate before upload or you risk double triangulation
[11:43] dj phil: ouch !
[11:43] Gavin.Hird it is not the viewer that converts
[11:43] Gavin.Hird that happens server side
[11:43] dj phil: i d'ont do, ouf :)
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: NO
[11:43] Gavin.Hird in SL it does
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: server do not SEE QUADS
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: NO
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: sl mesh format has NO QUADS
[11:44] dj phil: i mean viewer convertion Ubit
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: gavin said servers...
[11:44] Gavin.Hird yes, ubit, it gets triangulated on upload, stored as that and the render can only use tris
[11:45] Gavin.Hird which is why you get it back as tris on export
[11:45] Gavin.Hird or copybotting
[11:45] dj phil: Quad is only for modler's/builder's not for virtual words
[11:46] Gavin.Hird so all the copybotted meshes out there are in tris
[11:46] dj phil: And not the reverse ^^
[11:46] Gavin.Hird and when people reupload it often doubles the tris
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil, That also depends on the modelling program being used.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: bottom line question on the difference between bullet and ubODE mesh physics. How much testing has there been for the performance hit if using unoptimized meshes on a bullet sim vs a ubODE one? Are we talking a significant difference in performance for the sim?
[11:46] dj phil: Most common programs
[11:47] Gavin.Hird my personal experience is that ubODE use 10-15% more CPU than bullet for the same content
[11:47] Gavin.Hird others will see different results I am sure
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: yes i m pretty sure they see different :p
[11:48] dj phil: ^^
[11:48] dj phil: really ?
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: just curious Ubit....can ubODe be made to use the physics from the viewable model like bullet can?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird earlier it was about 50% more, but it has gotten very much better
[11:49] Bill.Blight I only see about a 2-5% increase in cpu
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: using visual mesh breaks proper use of physics shape type later
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle's question makes me remember that a wiki page about handling mesh also needs a section about any differences in behaviour between BS and ubODE.
[11:50] dj phil: afk 15'
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: yes but i am wondering if this comes to a theoretical issue or a practical one
[11:51] Bill.Blight I think mine uses less due to the fact I am using ubODE libs compiled with newer Glibc and not the old stuff for "compatibility" with older linux distros
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: we keep 3 engines for reasons...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: one just for old regions
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: 2 bc one may be a better option on some regions, not on others
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: just at this point bullet is starting to accumulate issues
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: like also broken handling of physics shape type
[11:53] Gavin.Hird performance has to do with version of mono, how it is compiled, how the meshes in the scene are put together and how the physics models were made / generated.
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes and no word from Mr Blue on fixes?
[11:53] Gavin.Hird if I see 10-15% difference that is perfectly acceptable
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen anything from misterblue in what seems like a couple of weeks.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird He said he had another project to finish
[11:53] Gavin.Hird one he got paid for I think
[11:53] Bill.Blight I am compiling with mono 5.2 and it has gotten lower since then ..
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: For some other non-mesh related items of this past week, Ubit has made some other updates to ubODE.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Another recent change has been work to allow use of buying land passes.
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: we beat that mesh pony to death for this week :)
[11:55] Gavin.Hird is that complete, or will there be more commits on the passes?
[11:55] Bill.Blight Been using the updated ODE lib for a while now .. works fine
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, indeed. One day the mesh info will get written down and Ubit will just have to point people to it instead of having to answer the same questions over again.
[11:56] Bill.Blight and over and over and over and over
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Buying land passes is something that will be useful for grids with an economy that may want to use it for events, such as a fund raiser.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird Are the permission changes deployed to OSG?
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I don't know. That would be a qustion for nebadon or dan. I don't know when osg was last updated.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: OSG does not use the same version everywhere
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: lbsa is on recent one
[11:58] Gavin.Hird but these changes do affect the core servers, yeah?
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: No. You can check the versions being used on the Plaza's.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: others.. well ask osg admin
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: this is on a paela revision?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: also grid part does not use core code
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle,paela??
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: oh
[11:58] Gavin.Hird I wondered, because Melanie said they all passed her unit testing, but that is not the same as being tested for prod
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: so on some aspects osgrid is not a good test platform
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: Rev Paela OpenSim 4.0.1 Dev (Unix/Mono)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: on others its ok.. like lbsa on almost top of dev
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: this is a private region
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, diva had been writing some testing for perms.
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: who knows what it is running
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think the work was complete.
[12:00] Gavin.Hird right, so it is not very well tested
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: 4.01?? That isn't a proper version number for Open Simulator.
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: but it works better for you here then wright plaza still Ubit?
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: no sense on having meetings on heavy loaded regions
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit often complained of lag at WP. I can't say I often noticed any.
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: i noticed it when i was on dsl
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: If there was lag it was usually a sign that the region needed a restart.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: possible opensim should have its own test platform..
[12:01] Gavin.Hird it's got a lot of content that region...
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: It certainly does
[12:01] Gavin.Hird agreed Ubit
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but for now, having a machine got git and site seems good enough
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: bc as i said, osg is no longer a good test platform
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: is the current recommended mono distro the one that has issues with reverse dns?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ( it also is a full operational grid )
[12:02] Gavin.Hird I have the latest dev without the permission code in testing on 47 regions over 3 simulators
[12:02] Gavin.Hird it runs very stable
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: There is the OSCC regions that have been used in the past for load testing but they don't get a lot of use outside the conference.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: or during actual load testing events.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: but having lbsa and some regions on top of dev code is good
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:03] Bill.Blight my entire grid runs on master ... Don't really have issues I can blame on the master code, do blame Ubit once in a while though ..
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: also some of the ppl that likes to test master is also here at osg
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: heh we all do :)
[12:04] Selby.Evans I may be able to get a grid on IMA for testing -- Anyonw who needs, talk to me.
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: that sort of testing isnt a hour or 2 thing
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: but about the permissions.. most osg runned regions are using the new code
[12:05] Gavin.Hird There is a Sandbox region anyone can use on xmir that is more or less on dev at any time
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: but day to day usage
[12:05] Bill.Blight I tend to keep a region up and running named UbrokeIT
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: and so far.. no reports about them on mantis
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: lolol
[12:06] Gavin.Hird is on dev with bullet
[12:06] Selby.Evans IMA should be able to provide any amount of time -- unlimited
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: well andrew did not mentioned a code change in last days
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: on creation of new wearables
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: New wearables? No, I missed that one.
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: that is actually a permissions issue.. just on independent section
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: creating a wearable or animation set, you need full rights on the assets used.
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: huh?
[12:08] Gavin.Hird which commit was that Ubit?
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: till recent changes, not having them whould result on a broken wearable with no warning
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, right. That commit. It was related to mantis 8219.
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: now, you should get a message, and no upload at all
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: so you cant use a no modify texture on a wearable?
[12:09] Gavin.Hird this one: partial mantis 8219; on creating or updating items (animationsets, wearables) that reference assets,
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: or no transfer?
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: textures u need transfer, copy and mod
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: thats a pain
[12:10] Gavin.Hird In SL you can make skins with only copy textures
[12:10] Gavin.Hird otherwise no skin creator would even dream of creating the textures
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: thats lindens issue
[12:11] Gavin.Hird I make skins
[12:11] Gavin.Hird the textures are NOT distributed full perm
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: yeah
[12:11] Gavin.Hird ever
[12:11] Gavin.Hird unless you make a full perm kit
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: if lindens allows ppl to sell things made from non copy no transfer items.. that is their problem
[12:11] Bill.Blight you can set the perms after you make them and even give the textures no copy,
[12:12] Gavin.Hird again Ubit, total disrespect for creators
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: what about all the textures i have already without full perms?
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: toss out\?
[12:12] Gavin.Hird clothing, wearables are NOT distributed with full perm textures
[12:12] Gavin.Hird ever
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: yes lindens do that occasionaly
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: forget textures creators rights
[12:13] Bill.Blight ^^
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: they have that on a few other things also
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: but thats their thing.. sure they have their reasons
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: sl compatibility
[12:14] Bill.Blight If someone gives you a texture that is NO COPY and you can make skins/clothing with it and sell it, or give it away that is totally disregarding the texture creators rights
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, how is someone like Gavin affected if they are the original creator of a skin and the textures for it with the texture not having full perms?
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: if they give it to you no modify then should be able to
[12:14] Bill.Blight or make 47 shirts with a single no copy texture, isn't that a problem for someone?
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: no mod sjhould still be allowed
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: well that rule is up on 0.9 since merge
[12:15] Gavin.Hird the way skins are usually distributed is copy only
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: and no transfer if intended as no transfer for the actual texture but not products made with it
[12:15] Gavin.Hird some may be distributed mod copy
[12:15] Bill.Blight no copy should mean no copy, how is it no copy if I make 100 pieces of clothing with it?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: the change is that now it will cause the creation of a broken asset that the creator whould even have trouble detect
[12:15] Gavin.Hird but usually not
[12:16] Gavin.Hird so the system should respect the permissions set by the creator of the skin
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: that is funny arielle :)
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: think that was slipped in then without the knowledge of most people
[12:16] Gavin.Hird the creator does of course have the full permissions, but that is changed on distribution to others
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: well this was a need protection for textures creators, or animations
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: pfft
[12:18] Bill.Blight So you want to be able to take a texture that you have no copy/no mod/no transfer and be able to make something with it and then sell/distribute it arielle? Even though the original creator of the texture intended it to not be re-distributed ?? Or did I read that wrong?
[12:19] Gavin.Hird say you have a skin texture that is copy only
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Is that change going to prevent someone from selling a skin (for example) using a texture that doesn't have full perms?
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: if the creator intended the texture to be used in clothing to be sold but wants it no mod, then that wont work here
[12:19] Gavin.Hird that you go from a creator
[12:19] Gavin.Hird you should be able to make new wearables with it
[12:19] Gavin.Hird but not transfer it to others
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: it is on asset/item upload
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: from hardrive?
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: no wearable upload after editing appearance for example
[12:21] Gavin.Hird If I buy a texture set that is no mod, copy, no transfer from Kitely market, I shall be able to make wearables for my use with the textures
[12:21] Gavin.Hird same with animations
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:22] Gavin.Hird use in my personal creations
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: then why do you buy it like that in first place?
[12:22] Gavin.Hird to use in my own outfits or personal use creations
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: to you in creations you need full rights things.. thats the purpose of the all permissions code
[12:22] Gavin.Hird my goodness Ubit
[12:23] Gavin.Hird have you ever been in SL and used stuff there
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: permission code then needs to be expanded to allow for dev kits
[12:23] Gavin.Hird there are millions of creations like that
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: no.. dev kits need to be provided with proper perms
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: same issue as meshes..
[12:23] Gavin.Hird right
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: ppl doing it wrong
[12:23] Gavin.Hird so I'll give you an example
[12:23] Gavin.Hird door scripts
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: lolz
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: heard that before
[12:24] Gavin.Hird a creator has made a business creating sophisticated door scripts
[12:24] Gavin.Hird sell them no mod, copy, no transfer
[12:24] Bill.Blight I'm really split on this , I can see both sides, but with all the people screaming about more permissions to protect creators, you can't really have it both ways ..
[12:24] Gavin.Hird meaning they can be used in all the builds of the buyer
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: S/L does it that way for a reason
[12:24] Gavin.Hird but the buyer cannot see the code
[12:24] Gavin.Hird or cannot resell the script
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: 3 people are screaming to protect the creators
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: oh and core
[12:26] Bill.Blight I'm not talking about THOSE people Arielle
[12:27] Bill.Blight people in general for a long time have complained that Opensim is the "Wild West" as far as permissions go
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: it was because perms were messed up
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: not that the idea behind them was wrong
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: well there still is GOD mode.. so.. well still is
[12:27] Bill.Blight And they didn't get fixed the way you like them ..
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: pass a full perm to another and code would make it no perms
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: thats what the prob was before
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: there was no consistency
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm wondering whether Ubit is saying dev kits should always be full perm. I wonder what impact the code change is going to have on those people who bought texture packs for use in their creations where those packs may have no mod textures.
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: well you should keep in mind that perms are tricky
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: get on the HG and it was a real mess
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: some cases not obvious
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: whats tricky is the dev's implementation of it
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: and NEVER changed them on inventory
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: or avoid that
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: this is above and beyond what s/l does
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: ( this is actually on SL wiki now )
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, and Mel often says she is the only one who knows perms.
[12:29] Bill.Blight If you have no problems distributing things the original creator intended to not be redistributed , just god mode them, then it is your choice, not opensimulators .
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: and she comes from a closed grid that was all for creators not end users
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: it is now dead
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, if the original creator doesn't want their items redistributed they should be no trans
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: permissions as rights protection can only work on closed grids
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: dev kits or things intended for redistribution but with no mod are legitimate but are now broken under this system
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: but talking about creators protection that should mean all not just a few
[12:32] Gavin.Hird this commit can't stand
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, that is the way it sounds to me.
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: if some dev kits are not possible to make.. well 2 bad
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: lol ubit
[12:33] Bill.Blight yes Andrew, I guess the real question here is , "What does No COPY mean?", is it literal meaning you can't copy it at all , even to use on multiple items, or does it mean the "asset" is no copy , but can be attached to multiple items
[12:33] Gavin.Hird no creator will approach a grid with such settings
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Has Ubit been hanging around Mel too much? ;)
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: talk No Mod Bill
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: assets have no rights
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: you keep slipping to No Copy
[12:33] Gavin.Hird no copy means you can only use it once
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: inventory items do
[12:34] Gavin.Hird if it also is no copy
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm also wondering what impact it will have on the use of texture viewers.
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: ) above when i said assets i was meaning their inventory items )
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: Andrew stop doing a mess of things :p
[12:35] Bill.Blight (for the record I am fine with the no mod thing being used on multiple items)
[12:35] Bill.Blight I agree that if it is simply "No Mod" it could be used on multiple items and even redistributed if it also had C/T perms ..
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, what mess? I make texture viewers. I've had problems in the past where perms on a texture would prevent it from being shown in a viewer.
[12:36] dj phil: No cop / mod / trans a on commercial consonance.
I hate that!
This often hampers the development for this reason
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: and you spoke about texture viewers ??
[12:36] Gavin.Hird as a creator I see little to no reason why an item should be distributed no mod no copy
[12:36] Gavin.Hird that is very restrictive
[12:36] Bill.Blight well you don't want scripts always being Mod
[12:37] Gavin.Hird agreed
[12:37] Bill.Blight but being No mod and no copy kind of silly
[12:37] Gavin.Hird but they should then be copy only
[12:37] Gavin.Hird no mod, copy, no transfer
[12:37] Arielle Popstar: but we arent talking scripts
[12:37] Bill.Blight does not matter in that respect Arielle, perms are perms'
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, it is restrictive but there are use cases for no mod and no copy on an item.
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: thats a chain of rights restriction.. creator has the higher options choice
[12:38] Gavin.Hird there are Andrew, but not many
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: each sucessive owner can restrict more..
[12:38] Bill.Blight Is it enough andrew to warrant the whole permissions system bowing to it?
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: but if i upload a texture and give it away with no rights i do not want it beeing sold on a shirt
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: do i ?
[12:39] Gavin.Hird demos are often no mod, no copy
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: i really don't understand some discussions..
[12:39] Arielle Popstar: if you upload it not wanting it modded but copied and transfer for resale?
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[12:40] Ubit Umarov: there are way to make packs
[12:40] Ubit Umarov: so restrictions only apply after next owner
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: just not that imediat.. and possible did not work before.. no idea
[12:41] Bill.Blight This change does not affect things that you totally create with your own textures
[12:41] Bill.Blight If you uploaded the textures, there is no change to the behavior, only if previous perms were set on them
[12:41] Arielle Popstar: what about textures i have that are copy transfer No Mod
[12:42] Gavin.Hird yes Ubit, but there are so called business kits where the content is set to no mod, copy, transfer with the intention the buyer repackage it for sale
[12:42] Arielle Popstar: exactly
[12:42] Gavin.Hird you then would typically set the permission of the end product to be copy only
[12:42] Arielle Popstar: should be painfully obvious this will be broken
[12:42] Bill.Blight Soooo you want the perms to protect you making freebies, or multiple copies but not protect the person who made them originally? I know that is not the point but that is what it sounds like
[12:43] Arielle Popstar: you arent getting it Bill
[12:43] Bill.Blight No I totally get it .. LOL and that is quite funny
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: well permissions are tricky
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: we did ask people to test them
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: and had no answers
[12:44] Arielle Popstar: i know what you think but why dont you take a no mod copy transfer texture and apply it to a product and put it for sale
[12:44] Arielle Popstar: which is your right
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: so they must be right :p
[12:44] Bill.Blight You want to be able to use no copy , no mod, items to make items to distribute,
[12:44] Gavin.Hird people are cautious to test it if it can screw up their content
[12:44] Gavin.Hird you said you tested it Ubit and it got broken
[12:45] Arielle Popstar: thats NOT what i said Bill
[12:45] Arielle Popstar: you are not getting it
[12:45] Gavin.Hird she did not say that Bill
[12:45] Ubit Umarov: i said it got broken?
[12:45] Gavin.Hird I agree, you don't get it
[12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: The change was only pushed on Friday so not a lot of people would have been doing testing over the weekend.
[12:45] Gavin.Hird you did Ubit
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: no i said i fixed a case where wearables and animation sets where getting broken without warning
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: and not there is a warn
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: and now
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: no change on the rule
[12:46] Gavin.Hird this was afew weeks back
[12:47] Gavin.Hird anyway
[12:47] Ubit Umarov:
[12:47] Gavin.Hird you need to understand how permissions are used in SL to make busines
[12:47] Bill.Blight lol
[12:48] Gavin.Hird and replicate that here if you want any hope of developing an economy in OpenSim
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: well this is not as SL is now
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: bc we really dont' follow sl on all things
[12:48] Gavin.Hird permissions must be like SL is now
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:49] Gavin.Hird yes they must end of discussion
[12:49] Arielle Popstar: yes because there is a reason they are like that
[12:50] dj phil: Will it pay to use opensim soon?
[12:50] Bill.Blight When an object is next owner no-modify, that permissions setting is interpreted as 'no one can create derivative works.'
[12:50] Bill.Blight that is from the SL wiki
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: and there are reasons why opensim should not do the same ( bugs aside )
[12:50] Bill.Blight so if you buy a texture from a creator, you are the next owner
[12:50] Gavin.Hird of the item itself
[12:50] Gavin.Hird BUT you can use it as a component in derivative work
[12:51] Gavin.Hird and that is the discussion is all about
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: another thing i almost changed was groups owned permissions
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: well and think i did
[12:51] Gavin.Hird group permissions is a completely different discussion
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: at this point discussion was "permissions must be as SL"
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: and NO
[12:52] Gavin.Hird group permissions must be like in SL
[12:53] Arielle Popstar: i guess the idea that Opensim is a PLATFORM is no longer relevant
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: again NO
[12:53] Arielle Popstar: it is now the baby of commercially oriented enterprises
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: i could change a lot more if we did had proper viewers :p
[12:53] Gavin.Hird with that attitude Ubit you will see a MAJOR fork of the code for use by anyone who wants to preserve the rights of creators
[12:53] Arielle Popstar: but with an awkward slant on security
[12:54] Gavin.Hird the viewer implement permissions like they are in SL
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: that depends on the viewer you are talking about
[12:54] Gavin.Hird that has worked to create and support an economy with tens of millions of dollars every eyar
[12:55] Gavin.Hird with the broken system in opensim it has created a cesspool of copied and stolen items
[12:55] Ubit Umarov: and you are the one telling the changes are not to protect creators
[12:55] Ubit Umarov: and you are WRONG
[12:55] Gavin.Hird I am not wrong
[12:55] Ubit Umarov: changes if any are to protect creators on opensim enviroment
[12:55] Ubit Umarov: that is NOT SL environment
[12:55] Arielle Popstar: it doesnt protect creators but does affect their ability to create
[12:56] Gavin.Hird and distribute and get paid if they want to
[12:56] Ubit Umarov: we did arrive here exactly on a such a case : protection of texture creators
[12:56] Bill.Blight It does not affect their ability to create, if they are truly creating, and not using parts of other people things .. Nothing stops you from creating or uploading your own textures ..
[12:56] Arielle Popstar: the degree of security should be left to individual grids anyway
[12:56] Ubit Umarov: even meshes issue is prectection of creators
[12:56] Arielle Popstar: leave opensim as a platform
[12:56] Gavin.Hird you don't understand how creations are used and how it drives an economy
[12:56] Arielle Popstar: without getting into judge jury
[12:56] Bill.Blight and you can still god it, if you want to bypass the permissions anyway
[12:57] Ubit Umarov: so no nonsense that we are not worried with creators
[12:57] Ubit Umarov: and that has no relation to follow or not follow SL 100%
[12:57] Gavin.Hird If you are a serious grid owner you don't God stuff
[12:57] Arielle Popstar: until they get it into their heads to remove access to god mode
[12:57] Gavin.Hird for your own consumption
[12:57] Arielle Popstar: they have already discussed it
[12:58] Arielle Popstar: and lot of people on grids dont have god mode available
[12:58] Ubit Umarov: the object deed to group is a thing i should had changed from SL
[12:59] Ubit Umarov: bc 99% of the time, doing that is losing the damm thing
[12:59] Ubit Umarov: just to give another example
[13:00] Gavin.Hird anyway, enough of this nonsense
[13:00] dj phil: Again it is money that is the nerve of war and the same in the free virtual worlds! Pfff pffff pfff
[13:01] Arielle Popstar: anymore on a release?
[13:01] Arielle Popstar: or postponed indefinitely?
[13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: If a texture maker wants to sell a pack of textures to someone so they can use those textures to make and sell items what perms must the texture maker put on the textures to allow the buyer to sell items with the purchased textures?
[13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, no real movement on that yet.
[13:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The person who has handled making the releases in the past isn't available at the moment so that has put a release on a temporary hold.
[13:04] Bill.Blight These perm changes only affected wearables, like shirts and things, not prim or mesh based items right Ubit ..
[13:04] Arielle Popstar: ok Andrew
[13:04] Arielle Popstar: shouldnt be a diff Bill if it is somehow protecting the creator rights
[13:04] Ubit Umarov: yes those where or the other permissions changes
[13:05] Bill.Blight so prim based items were uneffected , such as doors houses , tables, mesh clothing,
[13:05] Ubit Umarov: those are on the JAN or so changes
[13:05] Arielle Popstar: unless they have textures on them i would assume
[13:06] Bill.Blight these recent changes were ONLY fore wearables
[13:06] Ubit Umarov: i was clear telling this this last changes where on wearables and animation sets
[13:06] Bill.Blight System type clothing , animations
[13:06] Bill.Blight yes
[13:06] Arielle Popstar: so it is already in place for prim type objects?
[13:07] Bill.Blight Has no effect on prim/mesh based builds
[13:07] Bill.Blight Perms have not changed on those since January
[13:07] Arielle Popstar: is there any commercial grids on .9?
[13:07] Andrew Hellershanks: yes
[13:07] Bill.Blight so if you have not noticed your stuff being "broken" in 6 months I doubt it will
[13:07] Arielle Popstar: one that sells content?
[13:08] Bill.Blight I have people who sell content on my grid
[13:08] Bill.Blight one sells on kitely
[13:08] Bill.Blight she has had no issues
[13:08] Andrew Hellershanks: When was Kitely last updated?
[13:08] Bill.Blight she builds on my grid then takes it to kitely
[13:08] Bill.Blight kitely runs a version of .8x
[13:08] Arielle Popstar: kitely is still on .8.2
[13:08] Arielle Popstar: with their own mods
[13:09] Ubit Umarov: on that kitely is on its own fork i guess
[13:09] Bill.Blight but she has given me copies of some of the things she sells, and the perms work fine
[13:09] Ubit Umarov: but thats kitely admin issue
[13:10] Bill.Blight again if you have not noticed it being "broken" in 6 months, I doubt you need it anyway ...
[13:10] Bill.Blight or it is just not broken
[13:11] Arielle Popstar: I dont create for market
[13:11] Arielle Popstar: but lots do
[13:12] Bill.Blight But it if they were broken you would see it in freebies too, not just stuff that is sold
[13:12] Arielle Popstar: i am not the average user
[13:12] Bill.Blight sold or free, perms still apply
[13:12] Arielle Popstar: if it doesnt work one way, i try another
[13:12] Bill.Blight that is for sure ..
[13:12] Arielle Popstar: as do you

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