Chat log from the meeting on 2016-05-03

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[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: He we are again for another chat about the state of Open Simulator.
[11:05] Kayaker.Magic I'm on a slow Internet connection, can't type fast today.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird :-)
[11:05] Billy.Bradshaw George how did your server update go?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: There were some changes pushed to master this past week.
[11:06] Gavin.Hird yes
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a sign that OS development just slowed down a bit but hasn't stopped completely.
[11:06] George Equus: Billy, brilliant! :)
[11:07] George Equus: went for reusing the Regions.ini
[11:07] Billy.Bradshaw yeah, nice one George
[11:07] George Equus: Just finished backing up and imaging the server system  :)
[11:08] George Equus: Changes made seem related to tp? Trans from region to region on my spot is pretty smooth now
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Since the last meeting here I've got a test grid set up and running the latest git master. Some minor issues had to be fixed in the management software I use before I could get the test grid running. That's been done.
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: George, good to hear.
[11:10] George Equus: Maybe bit early to say for sure though, but look promising
[11:10] George Equus: HG tps are bit different  :(
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I've had a few things happening this past week involving adopting a cat so I haven't done all the things I wanted to do. I will be adding a var to my test grid and running tests
[11:10] Gavin.Hird What management software do you use Andrew?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, it is custom software written specifically for a grid where I do their tech support.
[11:11] Gavin.Hird right
[11:12] Gavin.Hird everyone seems to have their own flavor :-)
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Different ideas on how to manage a grid leads to different programs and ways to do it.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:13] James.Atlloud Is this like web server software - cpanel, etc.?
[11:14] James.Atlloud web hosting software.
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I had one program that was written by someone in Real Basic. The source code for it couldn't be accessed unless you had RB and that is a commercial product. I started something in C# to replace it. The new program is written in Python so now I have something I can maintain.
[11:14] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev 1e44aba: 2016-05-02 21:40:14 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... first meeting with a cat and this one likes to play fetch.
[11:15] James.Atlloud awesome :)
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: She just dropped one of her toys by me so it means she wants to play.
[11:15] Gavin.Hird Sometimes they go sit on the keyboard in front of you
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: She has gotten up on the table with the keyboard but I try and discourage her from doing that. This is only the second day she has been here.
[11:17] James.Atlloud My dad's cat likes to sleep behind the computer monitor. lol
[11:17] Richardus.Raymaker Andrew, after so a long time you know you going to lose it from the cat.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: James, The program lets me start and stop instances, and see their status, It also has some features related to managing users and estates. It is still a work in progress. It is usable but more features still to be added.
[11:19] James.Atlloud OK TY
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think there has been much in the way of programs available to people running grids in terms of management software.
[11:20] Gavin.Hird We have had some success in using the LL coro routines in the viewer to access OpenSim, but not much
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: There is the diva WiFi package and there was the opensimwi (Wiredux) project. The Wiredux software had a lot of issues.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird it is complicated. They started sprinkling it around the code about a year ago.
[11:22] Gavin.Hird We might have to build an OpenSim version in the interim
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't look at the viewer side of things unless I have to as the OS code is a big enough thing to get familiar with and I'm not a C++ programmer.
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker Would be nicer to see better build scale, better camera angle, replace dae and higher smooth framerate first
[11:24] Gavin.Hird absolutely
[11:24] Gavin.Hird but they must play together
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: In the case of Singularity I would like to see it not lock up when the audio stream for the parcel I'm in and was listening to changes.
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker Sometime I think it's more easy to build everything on top of new platform. but that create new problems
[11:25] Billy.Bradshaw Andrew does your management console use RemoteAddin, or have you an additional module for an interface?
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker not using singularity anymore. it V1 interface. confusing and the mesh uploader i think works not so good too. oh still need to update it
[11:26] Gavin.Hird There was a new Windows build today
[11:26] Gavin.Hird with a LOT of code changes
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker not alpha ?
[11:26] Gavin.Hird alpha
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I'm not really sure. I haven't looked at the communications that takes place between the management program and the grid code. I think it is likely that it uses the remote console.
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker yuck. no way. seen enough alpha
[11:27] Gavin.Hird I would think there are months of work before a new release
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker opensim is still alpha. nobody renamed it to something else
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity became my viewer of choice and I was using the Alpha releases until it got seriously broken.
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm using the last released version of Singularity or Kokua these days.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird So do I
[11:28] Billy.Bradshaw The update from webkit has made a significant difference to moap on windows
[11:28] Gavin.Hird Kokua does not have all the functionality Singularity has on building
[11:28] Richardus.Raymaker FS, alchemy or SL this days. with rare case singularity
[11:28] Richardus.Raymaker singularity just works in smooth and framerate , at least the version i use
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I have five different viewers installed on my machine, plus the standard SL viewer for when I go to SL.
[11:29] Richardus.Raymaker same here
[11:30] James.Atlloud 4 viewers but mostly use FS
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: The V1 vs V2 or V3 interface doesn't bother me that much. What I find more annoying is when each viewer starts moving things around in the menus and you have to hunt all over the place to find some particular setting or menu item.
[11:31] Richardus.Raymaker That is why singularity is so terrible
[11:31] Gavin.Hird at least the shortcuts are pretty consistent
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: The nice thing is that we have choices in terms of what viewer to use.
[11:31] Richardus.Raymaker Nothing is on it's place
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, to me singularity has things in "the right place". It is Kokua, Firestorm, and some others that have moved things to unexpected places.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird I agree Andrew
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I sometimes need help from someone else to find a particular setting.
[11:33] Gavin.Hird if you come from a version 1 viewer, the version 2 and onwards are horrible in many respects
[11:33] Richardus.Raymaker Yes. but most things are on the normal place in V3 viewers. that are on strange places in singularity
[11:33] Gavin.Hird The Cool VL viewer is a v1 and very clean
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm more or less used to the standard V3 SL viewer. Some of the changes in viewers arises from additional feature they add.
[11:34] Richardus.Raymaker if you use long enough FS and SL viewer sometimes . then you jump back to singularity it's disaster
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: They try to group settings related to particular sets of features in a way that makes more sense to them.
[11:34] Richardus.Raymaker yuck coolVL. never ,never again. bad experience few years ago
[11:35] Gavin.Hird it has improved, but is not your standard run off the mill
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Has anyone run across any other issues in OS this past week?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird it has been surprisingly stable the last week
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: When I first set up a test grid I had an issue with the birds module but getting the latest version of it resolved the issues I had.
[11:38] Gavin.Hird birds module?
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSimBirds. It is an addon module that simulates a flock of birds flying around in a region.
[11:39] Billy.Bradshaw What group / profile resources are you using Andrew?
[11:39] Gavin.Hird ok… never heard about it
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't have to be birds. You tell it what prim you want to use as the "bird".
[11:39] George Equus: New to me
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I'm still using flotsam groups, OpenSimSearch, and OpenSimProfile modules.
[11:40] Billy.Bradshaw k
[11:40] Gavin.Hird Is there an updated list of what add-on modules are available?
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: George, its great fun. Can really add a bit of atmosphere if you have a beach area and you use it to have seagulls flying around.
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker the profile error on wright is annoying
[11:41] George Equus: Got a bee that refuses to fly to the hive between logins. Have to reset script each time after login, Very annoying :) but probably an incompatibility??
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Still getting that unable to open profile error?
[11:42] Richardus.Raymaker yes. every week here with FS
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic Any fixes for he avatar crossing var borders when both vars are different instances on the same server box?
[11:42] George Equus: It does sound fun Andrew,
[11:42] Billy.Bradshaw the message id 'Unable to fetch profile data at this time'
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, based on the changes that I saw hit master this past week I think not. Now that I have a test grid up I will run some tests myself.
[11:43] James.Atlloud I see that message a lot.
[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker yup. i think it happens every time a new avatar comes in
[11:43] George Equus: I get that message on Richardus
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I've only noticed the error when I try and pull up someones profile.
[11:44] George Equus: np on James
[11:44] James.Atlloud 5 times at 11:31 to 11:32
[11:44] Gavin.Hird It is because the viewer does a lookup of your settings on every region crossing
[11:44] Billy.Bradshaw It when a avi from a grid using core profiles visits a grid with the earlier version
[11:44] Gavin.Hird when off your local grid, it does not know where to fetch the profile from any more
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker SO, error in osgrid. the use not V2
[11:44] Gavin.Hird so it is your own profile it tries to get from the grid you are on
[11:46] Billy.Bradshaw That is another thing, when you visit a grid using core profiles and there are avi present, robust of the home grid receives request for avatar properties
[11:46] Billy.Bradshaw but ones own robust has no idea what they are
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, When you say the "earlier version" of profiles so you mean the OpenSimProfile addon module?
[11:47] Gavin.Hird that is probably also the viewer trying to look up the surrounding avatars on your behalf
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker when i did HG in the error appears already at least 3 times
[11:48] Billy.Bradshaw Gavin, yes that is what is happening. Is the profile address only set during login?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, are the two vars beside each other where they have either the same X or same Y coordinate for the regions?
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: James, which viewer are you using?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird I believe it is
[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker another one right now
[11:49] James.Atlloud FireStorm
[11:49] Gavin.Hird unless you do a search
[11:49] Gavin.Hird or click an avatar and ask for the profile
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm on Sing so I didn't notice any profile requests during those minutes you mentioned.
[11:49] James.Atlloud FS 64bit v4.7.7
[11:50] Gavin.Hird there is a bog difference in the codebase between Singularity and the v2 and onwards viewers
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:51] Gavin.Hird the version 2 viewers rely heavily on LL code that does not know anything about opensim
[11:52] Gavin.Hird and it is getting more complicated to bridge the gap because the LL codebase is moving very fast in a different direction
[11:53] Billy.Bradshaw every time I login to SL there seems to be an update, things are moving very quickly
[11:53] James.Atlloud Which direction is most likely to support things like VR headsets?
[11:53] James.Atlloud Framerate in particular.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird it does not have anything to do with VR headsets
[11:54] Gavin.Hird it has to do with LL making major changes to their infrastructure and where data is coming from
[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker Forget the VR headset. but opensim feels aged and old for me. and problematic difficult
[11:54] Gavin.Hird earlier the functionality in opensim and SL were pretty much in sync when it came to the backend. Not so any more
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a project under way to create a new viewer for OpenSim. I don't know much about the details of it but it is supposed to break us away from the dependency on any code from LL, AFAIK.
[11:54] James.Atlloud That can be a good thing.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird If there is a completely new approach to making a new viewer, perhaps it should be talked about
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker can be good.......
[11:55] Gavin.Hird it feels like the closed development for Sansar going on at the moment
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that a new viewer for use with their new grid?
[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker sansar. Noooo. for the simnple reason that it's from linden lab and USA. with high fidelity you can at least run it woulout and placename or whatever
[11:57] Gavin.Hird Sansar is a completely closed source proejct
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: If they don't make a version for Linux it won't be of any interest to me.
[11:58] Gavin.Hird But doing a new opensim viewer with a lot of changes to the opensim server in secret does feel like the same approach
[11:58] Gavin.Hird They will not make a Linux version
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: HiFi is only Mac and Windows with no mention of Linux that I've seen so there is little point in me looking at it.
[11:58] Gavin.Hird there will only be a Windows version initially
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, they will cut off a lot of potential users.
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker Gavin, the first need to know if a viewer can work. before people get happy with a dead squirrel
[11:59] Sarah Kline: Agree Gavin
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker Hifi runs on linux too
[11:59] Gavin.Hird I don't understand what the target user base will be for Sansar
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, not the last time I looked.
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker devs use it, some people use it. you only need to compile it. and puzzle a bit sometimes
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker i think you need to git it for linux
[12:00] Gavin.Hird if it is a Windows user with Occulus the user base will be tiny
[12:00] Sarah Kline: who creates virtual VR experiences with Linux though
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, it would have to be written in part with Mac or Linux in mind.
[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker it's sofar i know using QT and C++
[12:01] Gavin.Hird They say they will make mobile clients eventually
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... "Project Sansar will do for virtual experiences what WordPress has done for the Web: empower a broad range of people to create with professional quality and reach global audiences."
[12:01] Gavin.Hird an iOS client will have to be written in Objective-C or Swift
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: At the same time it says that initial 3D content will be generated by using Maya which is a very expensive commercial package.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird yes
[12:02] Richardus.Raymaker andrew, you talk about sansar ?
[12:02] Sarah Kline: they use a maya uploader plug in
[12:03] Gavin.Hird there is a registration page for the beta
[12:03] James.Atlloud Are VR HMDs a factor for OpenSim?
[12:03] James.Atlloud a consideration.
[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker Forget sansar, go high fidelity. why ? because in sansar nothing can be done realtime with editing etc. you build first, then it get baked before others can use it. sofar i have read
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't use hi fi unless it will compile and run under Linux.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird It did not exactly feel like you could build much in HIFI either
[12:04] George Equus: Sansar seem focused on "Monetizing creations". Some new way for LL to strip ppl of money...
[12:04] James.Atlloud Richardus, does there seem to be an open source aspect to HiFi?
[12:05] Gavin.Hird HIFI is supposedly all open source
[12:05] Richardus.Raymaker No, you use for now a better tool like blender
[12:05] Sarah Kline: yes
[12:05] James.Atlloud ok, ty.
[12:05] Billy.Bradshaw All HiFi sources are available James
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: James, A VR HMD seems to me more like a viewer issue than a back end issue.
[12:05] Sarah Kline: I uploaded it again recently and progress has been made
[12:05] Richardus.Raymaker prims are terrible to build with, well mesh in opensim anyway too
[12:06] Richardus.Raymaker hifi is a framework. you can create your own things for the domain
[12:06] Billy.Bradshaw two conversations in progress :(
[12:06] Sarah Kline: mesh and prims terrible in opensim
[12:06] George Equus: Love prims  :) can do anything with them
[12:06] Gavin.Hird prim builds can be pretty efficient
[12:07] Sarah Kline: as can mesh be
[12:07] Gavin.Hird yes, but you can prototype much faster with prims
[12:07] James.Atlloud Prims are user-friendly
[12:07] Richardus.Raymaker sounds mabye silly. but not long ago i also started to get problems to fly and walk :O possibly the bad camera angle and not correct 1st person mode
[12:07] Gavin.Hird then export and redo as mesh
[12:07] Sarah Kline: agree
[12:07] Sarah Kline: I do that
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes. There are a couple of features missing from those that let you torture a prim but otherwise they are still good as building blocks.
[12:08] George Equus: mesh can't easily be altered once uploaded
[12:08] Billy.Bradshaw The HiFI character style is favored more by our younger users
[12:08] Sarah Kline: just use as a template
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. If you read the question I asked earlier, you can IM me the answer.
[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker Billy. you run behind. the last 2 demo avatars look very good. much better then in OS.
[12:09] Sarah Kline: you can make whatever avatar you want if you rig one youreself
[12:09] Sarah Kline: like here
[12:09] Richardus.Raymaker yup..
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Rigging isn't the easiest thing to do.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird hehe
[12:09] Gavin.Hird it is an art
[12:09] Sarah Kline: black art
[12:10] Gavin.Hird yep
[12:10] George Equus: And you need to be a good artist...
[12:10] James.Atlloud lol
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, there are some updates/changes/addons for Blender that are supposed to assist in rigging models.
[12:10] Gavin.Hird and the current rig bends in all strange ways
[12:10] James.Atlloud Please let me know if the HMD topic is out of scope
[12:11] James.Atlloud I admire opensim and I'm attending mostly to learn and to see how I could support devs.. Not a dev myself.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: One way to help is by reporting issues you encounter. They may not always get fixed quickly but if you have an issue and it hasn't already been reported it is less likely for it to get fixed.
[12:13] Richardus.Raymaker i think HMD with opensim and secondlife. it keeps a framerate conflict. 75-90fps is needed. and OS or SL are not generating it. also movement horizontal pan is not smooth
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, a lot of people seem interested in headsets and they have their uses but I wouldn't want to wear one of those things on my head.
[12:14] Gavin.Hird SL is not going to do anything about it as they are developing Sansar for that purpose
[12:14] James.Atlloud TY Andrew. Yes Richardus and I wonder if 75fps is out of the realm of the possible.
[12:14] Gavin.Hird it is really about developer resources
[12:14] Gavin.Hird remember LL has over 200 full time developers on Sansar and some 10-15 on the SL code
[12:14] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev 1e44aba: 2016-05-02 21:40:14 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[12:15] James.Atlloud (!)
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker I stay away from HMD for a while. but i see still use in it mabye. in few years. but only for the 3d pictures
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd be more interested in the device that was being worked on by someone else whose name I've forgotten.
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker it's annoying that OS/SL not generate the 100fps i need
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a much smaller type of headset.
[12:15] James.Atlloud I can't afford the leading HMD but when I can, I will try and OpenSource VR HMD>
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker 100Hz for me screen
[12:16] James.Atlloud 100fps
[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker 100fps = 100hz
[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker at least, with good software. most screens only go to 60hz btw
[12:17] James.Atlloud My brain is too slow for that - :) - 60hz seems to be OK. lol
[12:18] Gavin.Hird OpenSim would have to be rewritten completely to produce that
[12:18] James.Atlloud That's what I wondered.
[12:18] Richardus.Raymaker i wish my second screen where 100hz too. because yu really see the difference in SL already
[12:19] James.Atlloud Never tried to run 2nd screen at different rate. I think it would be very apparent.
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Its well past 12. Time to wrap up this meeting.
[12:20] Richardus.Raymaker not really. oh second screen is running on 50hz because lights that is why the first run only at 100
[12:20] Richardus.Raymaker you not see the difference in desktop mode
[12:20] James.Atlloud agree Richardus. TY Andrew - I should go back to things too. Thanks again.

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