Chat log from the meeting on 2015-07-07

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[10:56] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[10:56] Aine.Caoimhe hi Neb
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: I am finally starting to get a good grid on texturing in blender
[10:57] Aine.Caoimhe hehe...yeah, takes a while
[10:57] Aine.Caoimhe you're using Cycles for it?
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: nah
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: im not baking anything yet
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: just standard texture on faces type of stuff
[10:57] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[10:58] Richardus.Raymaker kommt in Chat-Reichweite (10.51 m).
[10:58] Jak Daniels kommt in Chat-Reichweite (6.13 m).
[10:58] Aine.Caoimhe for the most part these days I assign materials and map for seamless textures
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: see these
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: 1 prim each
[10:58] Alicia.Raven kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.36 m).
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe yeah, that''s ideal sort fo thing
[10:59] Shez Oyen kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.15 m).
[10:59] Alicia.Raven hello everyone
[10:59] Richardus.Raymaker hello
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe hi Alicia
[10:59] Jak Daniels: hi all
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: has materials too
[10:59] Lucy Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.58 m).
[10:59] OtakuMegane Desu kommt in Chat-Reichweite (9.69 m).
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe ues, I'd make custom normal maps for all of it
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks kommt in Chat-Reichweite (14.70 m).
[11:00] Lucy Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (16.90 m).
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe then you get much better illusion of model quality
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice to mention the osgrid wide meeting but I don't see the notice until after the fact. :P
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Does osgrid not forward group notices to email?
[11:01] Aine.Caoimhe what's the poly count of the building, Neb....200-ish?
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: I am hardly a texturing master in blender now but its nice to feel like I understand it a bit
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: these are a bit higher
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: nice pair of buildings
[11:02] Master Dubrovna kommt in Chat-Reichweite (14.34 m).
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: i need to reduce the count on the roof exhaust pipes a bit
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe that's still excellent
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya I can probably get it down to like 500
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: I was more focusing on textures
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: than poly counts
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe consider how many prims it would take to make one
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks wishes he had more time to use Blender
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: 500 polys is like 12 cubes
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:03] Richardus.Raymaker blender is nice, but not with OS or SL
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: no qIR
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: no wait
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: less than that
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe yeah, I missed the exhaust pipes....they'd be the ones racking up the count
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: a cube is 96 polygons I think
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: a prim cube
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: Id have to check again
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: a standard prim cube is 108 triangles 96 vertices
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe rofl
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: because you can torture them
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: they have to be subdivived a lot
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: So does it always have that many or does it add as you torture the prim?
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe it always has that many
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe all prim objects are fixed poly count
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: a torus is even worse
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe yeah, and spheres aren't very nice either
[11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: That seems...dumb. I can understand there's a reason, but still.
[11:06] Lani Global kommt in Chat-Reichweite (15.61 m).
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: a single prim torus
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe almost every time it's far more efficient to model them in Blender
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: is 1146 triangles and 625 vertices
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: thats more than thhis house
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe I did an entire 8-room cottage with ornate railing in under 30k tri
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: anyone wants a copy of my 1 prim houses on table feel free to grab
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: the textures I used are inside
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe that's interior, exterior, railing, deck, windows, doors....everything
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I am learning how to texture in blender
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe and if I'd gone with a less fancy railing I could have chopped that down to under 8k
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker good luck with that. :O still messing with it, but i have progress
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: I found a pretty sweet script for blender
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: to make railings
[11:08] Robert Adams kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.25 m).
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe I just make a single post, then fun with arrays
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe often nested ones
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty sweet how it works
[11:08] Robert Adams: hello all
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a lot of nice scripts for Blender to automate some object creation
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe hi Robert
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: basically how it works
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you select a bunch of edges on a object in blender
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then go into the blender script tool
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: and run that script
[11:09] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim Dev        f4dfdbb: 2015-06-28 13:52:45 -0400 (Unix/Mono)
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: and it turns all the edges into tubes
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: as soon as you run the script you move your mose to determine the diameter of the tube
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: then roller mouse determines how many sections that tube has
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe it essentially is separating those verts, converting to curve, then making 3D curve, then converting back to mesh and adding it back to the original
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: very nice if you have long flowing paths
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: you can just grab an edg of the entire path
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: extrude it up
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:11] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.45 m).
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: select all the edges you want as railing and run script
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: insta-railing
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe I do that to make hems and lace edging for clothing
[11:11] Lani Global: is there a current default allowed-to-public ossl script function list?
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its in /bin/config-include Lani
[11:11] Lani Global: thanks
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: wow. That pipe script is awesome.
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe it all depends how the region is set up of course
[11:12] Robert Adams: it is in bin/config-include/osslEnable.ini I think
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea the reason I found the pipe script
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: is I am making a new Physical Roller coaster ride
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: where a torus rides over a tube
[11:12] Robert Adams: osslEnable.ini is included by default in OpenSim.ini.example....
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @RObert: if you're going to tackle the scripted advanced mats you might be digging in the same code to fix
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: I am redoing Cutelalas Torus Coaster in mesh
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: and so far its pretty sweet
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: the torus rides over the mesh perfectly
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker that's asking for physics trouble ned :O
[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Something like a physical coaster would be awesome to see
[11:13] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.99 m).
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: actually it works awesome
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: im about 50% complete
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I've tried contacting Cuteulala last few times I've seen her in world but I don't get any response from her.
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker ok
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: I will let you all know when its done
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, Definitely like to see that, nebadon
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we have a working prim version at Sisyphus
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but the track is like 1000s of cubes
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and the torus rides over the cubes
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: the new version is going to be a single mesh tube
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: highly optimized
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: nice
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its the size of an entire 256m2 region almost
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its like 240x240m
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: has loops and stuff
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: pretty sweet
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: wow. That's a lot bigger than the old one that was out
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe barf bags under each seat?
[11:16] Teh MehKz kommt in Chat-Reichweite (17.94 m).
[11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Does the torus keep a steady position over the mesh or does it wobble a bit as it goes?
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the one at Sisyphus has always been that large
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: I am using the prims as the template
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: im basically retracing the entire track from scratch
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Was it? It didn't seem like it took up that much of the region it was in
[11:16] Robert Adams: Nebadon... I've had good luck with mesh-to-mesh collisions if you reduce the weight of the objects (reducing density or whatever)
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: well Sisyphus is big
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: Var
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: 1536x1536
[11:16] Lani Global: by the way, for those interested: OSgrid had an open meeting on 5 July and announced Non-Profit Corporation status approval and it is now Tax Deductable / Tax Exempt in USA. here's a link to the chat log and some photos
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya thanks Lani :)
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, check the date
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, had.
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea was couple days ago :)
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: we finally got full 501c3 status for OSgrid now
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't quite catch the "had" and was thinking "has" as I got the group notice about it when I logged in today.
[11:18] Lani Global: for those asking about tax status in other countries... that does not apply to anywhere except USA.
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe on Opensim stuff....we've been noticing a rather concerning escalation of the memory and thread counts of a region that don't seem to be released
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yea I have noticed it at some regions too Aine
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: so far I cant explain it
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe when you have multiple visitors arriving you'd expect that, but when they leave again those resources should be released
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe and they aren't
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: on some of the regions going to a slightly older version of mono made a big difference
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, darn it. The cat is calling for me again. :P
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe Seth has been charting it for my Hedonism region now for a while
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its strange for me because I am not seeing it across the board
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: it seems like more heavily traveled simulators get it the worst
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe I don't notice it nearly as much in my .NET-hosted regions but there is an increase happening there as well
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Scripted gadgets, or avatar attachment data not getting released?
[11:20] Dahlia.Trimble does using "force gc" help at all?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: well under mono
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: with AppDomainLoading = false
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe no
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it is going to leak memory but thats not new
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab *sighs
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe and the thread counts keep on climbing and climbing
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe plus memory use
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but ya I agree it seems like things have worsened lately in some regions
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: other regions I have run great
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe only way to free either is restart the simulator
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its very strange
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe restarting the region isn't sufficient
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: leads me to beleive it has something to do with avatars visiting
[11:21] Dahlia.Trimble would probably need to bisect to find where it happened
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe yes
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe and it appears to be a much bigger hit with HG visitors
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes, that is a long process though
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the bisect
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: because it takes sometimes 24 hours
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: for the memory creep
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes 48+ for me
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe we believe it stated as of Diva's inventory fixes
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe *started
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya anything is possible
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe something to do with the change in the fetch mechanism
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: best to not assume though either
[11:22] Dahlia.Trimble I have no creep on my grid but I get very few visitors
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe or at least that's the same timeframe that it first started to happen
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe a single avi arriving can add up to 500MB to the memory use
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: yea I cant tell you how many times a bisect has proven me wrong
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe and that is never released
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you can bisect and find an actual version
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: that would be huge
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker only see some weirdness on 0.8.1 that cpu usage on windows start to creep up soemtimes. restart only helps
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe give me 10-12 months to do it since I can only test it in a meaningful way every Sunday
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe so if I can get it in less than 50 steps maybe sometime next year I can tell you
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: well
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: if its as recent as divas
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it would be 50 steps
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe hopefully not
[11:25] Robert Adams: another place to look is the HTTP server (if it is inventory stuff)
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: I beleive its something with threading
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt surprise me if divas fixes are releated
[11:26] Robert Adams: I have seen problems with it not recovering well from timeouts... and could cause hangups with HG guests making inventory requests
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: her stuff likely increases thread use a bit
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats what we saw couple weeks ago Robert
[11:26] Sarah Kline kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.98 m).
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: when your inventory was freaking out the sim here I think
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe it's the threads not being released again
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: I can definitely say that newer mono makes it worse
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: what version of mono Aine?
[11:27] Robert Adams: all inventory should be moved off the server anyway... but that's a different project
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe I would have to check with Seth to be 100% sure but I believe he has Hedonism on 3.4.7
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe I know for sure it's 3.somthing
[11:27] Master Dubrovna: Was the automatic region backup feature ever implemented in opensim?
[11:27] Dahlia.Trimble I use it
[11:28] Master Dubrovna: oh ok
[11:28] Alicia.Raven fixed up the autobackup awhile ago, it works ok
[11:28] Dahlia.Trimble it makes an oar every day or so
[11:28] Master Dubrovna: I want to use it but thought I would check first
[11:28] Master Dubrovna: That is what I want Dahlia
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: 3.4.7 would be a wierd version of mono
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: that could be part of your problem
[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe but it's not a mono-only issue, Neb...I see it to a lesser degree under .NET too
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh I agree
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i have just found certain versions of mono make it worse
[11:29] Aine.Caoimhe I may be completely wrong on that, Neb....that's just from memory
[11:29] Aine.Caoimhe I know for sure it's 3.x
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza on mono 4.0.1 was using like 8gb memory
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: after 48 hours
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: switch to 3.12.1 and its fine again
[11:30] Lani Global: Are there any objections here to moving the OSSL functions: [osGetGridName] [osGetGridNick] to the "ThreatLevel=None" category?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but I have some of my own personal heaviest regions running on mon 4.0.1 fine
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: the big difference is my own regions dont get a lot of visitors
[11:30] Alicia.Raven refuge uses 3.2.8 i think aine
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Lani that is a question best asked on the mailin glist
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: mailing list*
[11:31] Lani Global: yeah, i will ask there also
[11:31] OtakuMegane Desu: I see no reason not to move them.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:31] Lani Global: trying to get a straw poll here on it
[11:31] Dahlia.Trimble I use 3.99.0 and no problems
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, what is their current threat level?
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: yea I use 4.0.1 just fine too
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: works great on my personal regions
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but here on Wright Plaza its just terrible
[11:32] Lani Global: they are currently ThreatLevel Moderate
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: this region is crazy extreme
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: with tons of visitors
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: 100s per day
[11:32] Lani Global: with all the HyperGrid use these days, it would be great for scripted wearables to know which grid they are in
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe yes
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: scripted wearables need a lot of love
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: we need to do what justin had suggested
[11:33] Lani Global: the grid name is available in every viewer already
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe script state is a complete bugger when you HG and unwear anything scripted
[11:33] Robert Adams: Lani: you just want them enabled all the time no matter what other enablements are made?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: instead of putting avatar scripted attachments into the main Script App Domain
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe very easy to end up with a corrupted opbject that will no longer rez at all
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: each avatar should get their own AppDomain for their scripts
[11:33] Lani Global: yes, Robert
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: that gets shut down when they leave the simulator
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now with AppDomainLoading = False for mono users
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: everytime a avatar wearing scripts enters the region
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: they get loaded into the app domain and can never be unloaded
[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: The only theoretical "threat" I can think of is HG into a closed grid that doesn't want it's name exposed for some reason. But then, why allow HG if it's that closed? :P
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: leading to memory / thread loss over time
[11:34] Robert Adams: I see no reason why not
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: eventually the balloon gets so big it cant function
[11:34] Lani Global: well, as i said, the Grid Name is available in EVERY viewer menu
[11:35] Robert Adams: someone was worried about griefer scripts knowing weaknesses if they can get that info easily... but I don't think it is a problem
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @Neb and the interesting thing is the scripts get loaded even if the sim is set to disallow scripts
[11:35] Robert Adams: I second the motion to make them threat level none
[11:35] Jak Daniels: +1
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe +1
[11:35] Alicia.Raven +1
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, does seem a bit high a threat level. I've raised questions about that sort of thing in the past. It can depend sometimes on what the code does to get some information rather than on the info itself.
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe while we're at it, can you move osMessageAttachments to VeryLow too?
[11:36] Richardus.Raymaker Well, grids betetr keep uptodate
[11:36] Alicia.Raven i was saying w couple of weeks ago its weird that they have a threat level
[11:36] Lani Global: for example, in Singularity Viewer... At the top menu "Help" pulldown, "About Singularity Viewer" in the Info Tab, you will see "Grid: OSGrid" if you check here.
[11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: If a griefer (or script) relies on a weakness all it has to do is test for it. Hiding specific info makes them need an extra step but in the end it really doesn't work. Security through obscurity just doesn't.
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe I can't think of any method that messaging an attachment can be abused since the attachment has to have a dataserver event ot respond to it, and anyone writing that would put in some sort of check to make sure it should pay attention to a message
[11:37] Robert Adams: I agree, Otaku
[11:37] Robert Adams: I'll change it this evening
[11:38] Lani Global: well, if specific grid owners want to remove such things, then they can set them to ESTATE_MANAGER,ESTATE_OWNER
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, if those calls just return variables and don't do anything fancy to get the info I'd be ok with the change.
[11:38] Lani Global: there are so many hypergrid users now, that we need to start thinking about that being the new normal.
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and Aine yes
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: scripts always get loaded into the simulator
[11:38] Robert Adams: the change will make them available by default.... anyone who cares, can easily turn them off
[11:38] Alicia.Raven get grid name only reads from the config and returns grid name
[11:39] Dahlia.Trimble the grid Singu reports seems to be the login grid? It doesn't say OSGrid for me right now
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: disabling scripts only prevents script from running
[11:39] Aine.Caoimhe for that matter, ditto for osMessageObject (which is currently Low)
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: not from being compiled
[11:39] Dahlia.Trimble maybe it's just using the grid manager data
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: scripts will always get compiled and loaded to memory no matter what
[11:39] Lani Global: you may be right, Dahlia
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker it tells the login grid
[11:39] Robert Adams: it would be nice to have a new script engine
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker but
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi flüstert: indeed it would Robert :)
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker You are at 2560146.8, 2560137.9, 32.5 in Wright Plaza (10000, 10000) located at (
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker thats in help too
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Mel would probably say why they were at the moderat threat level.
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: brb afk a minute
[11:40] Dahlia.Trimble It would be nice to have a new scenegraph and a new script engine :)
[11:40] Lani Global: it does show the region server domain
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, if I can ever get some other projects off my todo list I'd like to work on some of the script compilation issues.
[11:40] Dahlia.Trimble a scenegraph that isn't so prim/linkset oriented
[11:41] Robert Adams: Maybe start with seeing what was done in some ofthe OpenSim forks? Like what Rev did in Aurora?
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker you pointing to new tech fahlia ?
[11:41] Robert Adams: I think the whole AppDomain thing is overkill
[11:41] Lani Global: the old LSL function llGetEnv had a "grid" discovery but it was just a low integer number
[11:41] Hans Nerido kommt in Chat-Reichweite (5.49 m).
[11:42] Dahlia.Trimble Richardus, no, just wishfull thinking... I realize it's probably more work than just writing a new simulator
[11:42] Hans Nerido: good evening all
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab. I just remembered I need to turn off some data logging
[11:43] Robert Adams: I'd like to break the simulator up (al la DSG) but it would probably not be totally SL compatible
[11:43] Robert Adams: but that might not be as important by next year
[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe that's kind of the stumbling block for a lot of stuff, I assume....the need to remain fully compatible with TPVs
[11:43] Dahlia.Trimble I'd like to see a generic hierarchical scenegraph and have all the SL compatibility moved into modules
[11:43] Robert Adams: the other thing I thought of was allowing a 'load oar' into HiFi :-O
[11:44] Lani Global: good feature, Robert!
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker bice flexible dahlia
[11:44] Robert Adams: but then, they are making the same viewer mistake as was done for SL -- a gigantic, monlithic monster viewer
[11:44] Dahlia.Trimble lol
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker convert oar sounds better
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks is back
[11:45] Lani Global: did anyone hear the rumour that the next SL 2.0 was using some stuff they learned from OpenSim code?
[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm sure opinions still vary but as far as I'm concerned, if you can make stuff better and it works or can be added to the viewer, hell with SL compatibility.
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker No Lani
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker the dont talk much about sl2
[11:45] Lani Global: there's probably no way to confirm or deny it.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: back
[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: Most of what you hear about SL2 at this point is probably a rumor. Very little is known about it.
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I doubt anything from opensim is showing up in SL2
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: there would be no point
[11:47] Lani Global: just a rumour.
[11:47] Zac.Straya kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.48 m).
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[11:47] Zac.Straya kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.25 m).
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest I am not even sure its going to be anything like SL 1.0
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: it likely wont
[11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: It probably won't be.
[11:47] Richardus.Raymaker technical i dont hope so. it would be useless
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it will even be called Second Life or any any assocation really to second life
[11:48] Lani Global: i've heard the working name is something like "Samsar"
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker pretty sure. i think the mabye keep using sansar as name. dont call it sl2
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there is a very good chance its going to flop
[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe they need to make it more commercially viable to appeal to larger businesses
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: Samsar is just the dev name
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Third Existance?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe and I suspect that the generic "user" will be more of a customer for their real clients
[11:48] Lani Global: with a name like "Samsar" that conjures up the possibility that it is being developed in Hyderabad.
[11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: SL "1.0" was sort of a nerd/techy playground thing. LL is in it for the monies now.
[11:49] Jak Daniels: Second Try maybe ;)
[11:49] Lani Global: Second Fiddle.
[11:49] Dahlia.Trimble I dont know much about it, but all I've heard sounds a lot like that one company that flopped that was using CryEngine
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: LL's track record leaves me little hope it will be a success
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: the people running SL now are just not the same people who created SL
[11:49] Robert Adams: one big problem with SL was that it couldn't scale -- broke at 100K users and never could get above that
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: the people running SL right now don't seem to get it
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: It will start out well and go down hill from there
[11:50] Robert Adams: for the Internet, scaling is important
[11:50] Sarah Kline: I dont wish bad for what they do
[11:50] Lani Global: LL had some good mojo magic with SL originally.
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: If SL2 is a success, chances are a lot of us won't really be on it. I haven't seen much added to SLin recent years that I had a use for or was impressed by.
[11:50] Dahlia.Trimble ya scaling may have been a personnel problem also tho
[11:50] Richardus.Raymaker another problem from SL and OS is the camera angle and wqrong sized building and not default 1st person mode
[11:50] Dahlia.Trimble I heard the culture there was pretty lax
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, yea, and a good set of company philosophies. I remember their display at SL5B
[11:50] Robert Adams: it is sad watching SL slowly whither
[11:51] Lani Global: Well, really, it is somewhat a sign of the times.
[11:51] Dahlia.Trimble I still maintain premium accounts
[11:51] Lani Global: with the move toward all the power being in the streaming servers
[11:51] Lani Global: and not much power in the client
[11:51] Aine.Caoimhe the stats released recently for average online count it pretty scary, particular when you consider how many of them are likely to be bots
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm hardly ever in SL any more.
[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Camera angles and such are really more a viewer thing I think. And there again, SL compatibility. It really should have been improved long ago.
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker Lani, wrong. things move away from server side and more to client side
[11:52] Lani Global: unfortunately, to a certain extent, the destiny of the opensim user community is tied a lot to the SL user community.
[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol. SL is full of bots.
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: They could do what you can do in a game like Uru. You can see the world through the eyes of the avatar or watch it from the back (ala SL)
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe and I gather they've now completely cut the money side of it out of anyone other than themselves
[11:52] Robert Adams: I do wonder what this VR renaissance will turn into.... make the same mistakes or does something different come about?
[11:53] Dahlia.Trimble I hear HiFi is trying to mix client and server side physics. I hope they have more success than I did when I tried that with a Unity based client
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: all I can say is there is still nothing I find to be better than OpenSim :)
[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: ^
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: nothing even close for that matter
[11:53] Lani Global: with the new goggle-oriented VR, it seems possible that a resurgence could catapult a new generation into user-built virtual world
[11:53] Robert Adams: Dahlia, they are even using BUllet :)
[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Opensim has a lot to be worked on but the potential is huge.
[11:54] Robert Adams: I need to check HiFi again... a few months ago, avatars didn't have gravity or anything... it was really hard to us
[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker Depend where you stay robert
[11:54] Dahlia.Trimble ya I think they have a long way to go before it can be considered a marketable product
[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe would be great for a ISS sim
[11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: aeiou
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker Well, SL and OS have so its problem toi. SL is to expensive. and OS not many use. at least not see many except here
[11:55] Dahlia.Trimble sometimes y
[11:56] Lani Global: the modern user generation expects extreme life-like virtual world experiences in their pocket.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: I think realistically even if they overcome the scalling problems
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker that's the only scary side lani
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: we are not anytime soon going to see high percentages of the worlds populations using VW
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: there is not just a technology problem there I dont think
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: most people just are not interested
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: BTW, last week I was talking about the Notify button for events. I got the code working to support the feature. I am able to have an event notice request get added to a database table and removed from it. I just need the cron job to go with it, or some other way to act on the requests.
[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe they said that about the internet 30 years ago, Neb :p
[11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: VW has some practical uses but at the level pretty much all of them are currently at, it just doesn't have a "mainstream" place yet.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: oh it will eventually change
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but im saying if LL made it so 10 million people could log into SL tomorrow
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: 10 million concurent
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe hehe
[11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Eventually it'll happen, that's pretty clear really. It's just got a ways to go.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: they would never hit those numbers
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: not ever
[11:58] Dahlia.Trimble we need a telepathy module so we can take on Facebook
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe lol
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker No not
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its just my perspective I don't know
[11:59] Aine.Caoimhe a telepathy module or a blanket invasion of privacy module?
[11:59] Robert Adams: that's what we're missing.... a module that collects information about all the users so it can be sold to advertizers ;-)
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[11:59] Dahlia.Trimble lol
[11:59] Lani Global: the goggle VR is quite cumbersome, so even though it will have a niche market, it seems it will not quite be the mass market some think.
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker installs a teleblocker
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe and a mechanism to stream their ads directly into a region without the region owner being able to stop it
[12:00] Hans Nerido: the money grids would like this tool lol
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe and without the viewer being able to block it either
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but I am a hard core vrtual world person, but almost everyone I show this to in real world who isnt into VW thinks its cool, but I havent ever, not once been able to show someo who had no idea what a virtual world was and have them be even the slighest bit interested in actualy using it
[12:00] Robert Adams: I'd like some peripherial vision... I don't like looking down a tunnel
[12:00] OtakuMegane Desu: If you could get a mental link for the interface and interact with a VW intuitively like you would the real world it'd probably take off fast enough to leave a sonic boom. The type of stuff you see in anime and such.
[12:01] Lani Global: 3d surround display is not yet invented.
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: I think the biggest place OpenSimulator could really flourish still is in Education
[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe the data flow requirement would get pretty enormous pretty fast
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: I think its not being used enough for education still
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: screw SL
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: VWs will be very big eventually, the development and technology just isn't there yet.
[12:02] Richardus.Raymaker i dont think OS is suitable for education. mabye for short while
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: If you're willing to endure the learning curve and limitations it can certainly be fun but most people don't want to bother.
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its more educational tat minecraft, or can be anyway
[12:03] Lani Global: education is a big potential for OpenSimulator, agreed. But often, education has a small budget these days, and the technical personnel needed to make OpenSimulator happen for mainstream education isn't there yet.
[12:03] Elektra Resident: <ru-en> hi
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: well budget is a very good reason why opensimulator is a good choice
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: the amount of money schools spend on software is insane
[12:04] Lani Global: So, even though OpenSim cost is low... it still requires an infrastructure within the education environment, and programming of content to make it viable.
[12:04] Sarah Kline: the original attraction of SL that attracted people was that anything was possible or allowed...they they had to bring in controls to reign people in
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: But is the software cool stuff or just a design program for new football uniforms? :P
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: opensimulator has so much more use than just a social environment though
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: like what I am doing with Encitra
[12:05] Robert Adams: I need to run.... take care all... and keep the faith
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: we are modeling entire cities
[12:05] Lani Global: so, if OpenSim based complete "textbooks" were available, do you think there would be takers for them?
[12:05] Dahlia.Trimble SL had a lot of hype when it was new and that hype has waned a lot
[12:06] Dahlia.Trimble and now it's not new and shiny any more
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: students get credit for it
[12:06] Dahlia.Trimble so more hype may not help
[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: SL had much the same potential Opensim does. The problem is it got tied down in profit and grabbing part of the social network market.
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:07] Lani Global: Currently we have some good free educational OpenSim oar files for environments/buildings... but not really much in the way of oar files that have textbook style content.
[12:07] Lani Global: like it or not, our current education system is largely based on the antiquated notion of textbooks.
[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker Otaku, opensim is missing one thing for people. well the think content protection
[12:08] Lani Global: so, if educational content writers/creators were to focus their effort, perhaps a virtual textbook on just one prototype subject or class... maybe Physics 101 or something... could be made.
[12:09] Lani Global: right now, there's not much we can point to as an example.
[12:09] Sarah Kline: you can either have freedom or content protection
[12:09] Richardus.Raymaker to get more sl people you need both
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to head out. See you next week.
[12:09] Richardus.Raymaker bye andrew
[12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: COntent protection isn't a terribly big concern to the average user, more creators, especially the ones looking to make money. The amount of people who download music and software and such illegally pretty much says how much they care about IP.
[12:10] Sarah Kline: ^^
[12:11] Richardus.Raymaker Chikcing , egg. no content no users. no users no content creators
[12:11] OtakuMegane Desu: For things I make, I don't really care as long as someone doesn't take credit for themselves, I make stuff to be out there and get used, my day job pays the bills.
[12:11] Dahlia.Trimble Otaku, sure, but it's pretty hard to be in any digital content creation business and not have your content run on people's computers
[12:12] Lucy Afarensis: A lot to think about
[12:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, it is. There's a huge field of questions and dilemmas along the way that have to be figured out eventually. It'll take time.
[12:13] Dahlia.Trimble I get very demotivated when people take credit for my work
[12:13] sara vita kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.76 m).
[12:13] Shez Oyen: As soon as we have a money system here the thrill will be gone for me
[12:13] Aine.Caoimhe nods emphatically
[12:13] Lucy Afarensis: In the mean time I am going to go make something
[12:13] Lucy Afarensis: Bye all
[12:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Bye
[12:14] Aine.Caoimhe bye Lucy
[12:14] Sarah Kline: bye
[12:14] Lani Global: It's almost better to have "haters" of your work, than for them to steal credit.
[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker anyway, the biggest problem for opensim is the SL viewers. that's a problem some point. time it get replaced for something open
[12:14] sara vita kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.98 m).
[12:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Unfortunately far easier said than done.
[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker SO, converting opensim at some point to hifi can be solution. includiong script emulation sofar possible
[12:14] Dahlia.Trimble Richardus, but without a more flexible scenegraph a different viewer doesn't make much sense
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker That's why i like your idea dahlia
[12:15] Lani Global: isn't HiFi dependent on specific hardware at the user side?
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker sofar i know, no
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker well, dont try to run it on Pentium 1 offcorse
[12:15] Dahlia.Trimble I think HiFI is PC/Mac/Linux only still
[12:15] Elektra Resident: <en-ru> ну, не пытайтесь запустить это на Pentium 1 offcorse
[12:15] Sarah Kline: i still havent got to grips with this viewer yet lol
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker yes dahlia
[12:16] Lani Global: such as the motion capture gesture devices?
[12:16] Jak Daniels: I think it does require a certain level of graphics card too
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker Jak, SL and OS need possible a stroinger card default
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: I know people who have Nvidia GTS 250 that can use HiFi
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker but hard to say what the bottom will be
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats fairly low end hardware
[12:17] OtakuMegane Desu: But the biggest problem is integrated graphics. EVen a GTS 250 will crush almost anything integrated
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker bringing opensim on top of hifi would be very nice solution.. but a bit earlky to say
[12:17] OtakuMegane Desu: IG however is fairly widespread now and will continue to increase
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: HiFi actually requries OpenGL 3.5
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: I think
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: so that cuts out quite a bit of hardware
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: i beleive they intent to go to OpenGL 4
[12:18] Richardus.Raymaker i think the advise openGL 4.0 neb
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: which will kill even more people off
[12:18] Lani Global: so, it's not something that you can currently run on an android smartfone?
[12:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Minecraft isn't even off GL 2 yet
[12:18] sara vita: olá
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: no
[12:18] Richardus.Raymaker Neb, at the time old hardware mabye is already broken for people
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: the best Android phones can only do OpenGL ES 2.0
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: which is like stripped down version of OpenGL 2.0
[12:18] sara vita kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.12 m).
[12:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Running SL/Opensim on a phone would probably make it melt lol
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its not even enough to render SL properly
[12:18] sara vita: alguem fala portugues, ou espanhol?
[12:19] Elektra Resident kommt in Chat-Reichweite (14.21 m).
[12:19] Lani Global: it seems that the main touted features of HiFi are the gesture and capture based avatar movement and lipsync.
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: honestly HiFi is not good at all yet really
[12:19] Lani Global: for those, don't you need more than just a selfie cam?
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: they have a lot of work to do
[12:19] Dahlia.Trimble ya I hear canned animations aren't even working yet
[12:19] Richardus.Raymaker That's the base. not requirted lani. lot's of things can be implemented.. later
[12:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Like always, many interesting technologies and ideas, but who knos which will succeed. If any.
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: i heard some horror stories too about HiFI voice
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: they are not compressing voice
[12:20] Elektra Resident: hi everyone
[12:20] Aine.Caoimhe just how hard would it be to add custom (user-defined) armatures to Opensim?
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: i heard a few people went crazy over their monthly bandwidth limits
[12:20] Dahlia.Trimble hi Elektra
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: running hifi nodes
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: like tbs of data in a month
[12:21] Aine.Caoimhe I assume major addition at the viewer end would have to go along with it
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker Blame the stupid ISP that still use a limit
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: so ya, its not good idea to use it for anything serious yet
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: That's pretty bad to generate TBs from voice
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker OS have the same problem with limits for people
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: yea it uses no compression yet
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:21] Master Dubrovna: Back to work. Good day everyone.
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I need to run as well
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker bye master
[12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Bye
[12:21] Dahlia.Trimble bye
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: thanks guys good chat today :)
[12:21] Jak Daniels: they want super low latency for audio... most compressions kill that
[12:21] Elektra Resident: <en"}> {"code":200,"lang":"e
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker yeah, better run too
[12:21] Elektra Resident: <en-ru> спасибо, ребята, хорошо сегодня общаться :)
[12:21] Alicia.Raven bye
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :)
[12:22] Aine.Caoimhe should I
[12:22] Dahlia.Trimble ya prolly time to do something else. bye all :)
[12:22] Aine.Caoimhe have a great week all
[12:22] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: see you everyone
[12:22] Lani Global: cheers
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