Chat log from the meeting on 2015-04-07

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[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker hello
[11:01]  Shez Oyen: Hi Neb :)
[11:01]  Michael.Sietz Hello
[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker neb can never have enough PI :)
[11:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: My PDA stopped working properly last week so I didn't have it to remind me of last weeks meeting. I didn't remember about it until an hour or two after it had ended.
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello
[11:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin
[11:01]  Shez Oyen: Hiya Justin
[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker Andrew. you have some bad thing with hardware and hi
[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker hi justin
[11:02]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, tell me about it. :P I've done ok over the years. Now it seems everything is conspiring against me.
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: First my main computer, then the laptop and two hard drives, now my PDA.
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks sighs
[11:04]  Richardus.Raymaker eep!!
[11:04]  Richardus.Raymaker oh laptop too.
[11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: well... the laptop was 3.5 years old. It died 6 months after the extended warranty ran out.
[11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: did you ever get your desktop workstation going again?
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: Hello Dahlia
[11:05]  Shez Oyen: Hi Dahlia :)
[11:06]  Michael.Sietz Hello Dahlia
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, not yet. I've distracted myself with other projects. I did have another look at what motherboards I could get. I found two possible candidates. I really need to take some time to decide what I'm going to do to get it running again.
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker hi dahlia , robert
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks doesn't really want to spend $600 to get a new MB, CPU, and RAM.
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: if I was to upgrade what I had.
[11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: my friends list seems incomplete
[11:07]  Robert Adams: hello all
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: mine looks ok Dahlia
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: did you teleport here or Log directly in?
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: teleport
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert
[11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: I wouldn't know if mine wasn't complete. I never know how many I have on my list.
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: hi Robert
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe it just never finished before you teleported or something
[11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker do you see me dahlia ?
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: maybe
[11:08]  Michael.Sietz I keep getting unable to fetch profile data
[11:08]  Robert Adams: topic: what about a OpenSim github account that is the official OpenSim source and a fork for libomv to use with OS?
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: Michael thats normal
[11:08]  Dahlia Trimble: not on my list Richardus
[11:08]  Robert Adams: we could also put other things there
[11:08]  Michael.Sietz ok
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: because we are not running V2 profiles here
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: not yet
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its on our long to do list
[11:08]  Michael.Sietz lol
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've always thought that having the primary hosting be on github would be a good idea
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: You would have to see if that idea still meets resistance
[11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: just have to convince Melanie
[11:09]  Robert Adams: and it would 'solve' the lost libomv repository
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: lost libomv repo?
[11:09]  Robert Adams: one core developer does not the OS project make
[11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: lost?
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, unable to fetch profile data shouldn't be "normal"
[11:10]  Dahlia Trimble: Robert, except for the veto rule
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its normal for people who Hyeprgrid in
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: who are running V2 profiles
[11:10]  Robert Adams: do you have admin access to the libomv repository, justin?
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: when the grid you go to is running osprofiles
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: otherwise yes, its not normal
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: I do.
[11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, oh
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin do you have admin rights?
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: to add more commiters?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the website is gone
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: I hear thre website has gone. I am still extremely occupied with other things to do any opensim stuff atm
[11:11]  Robert Adams: I'm willing for fork OS to get around Mel.... too many good things have been held up because of her veto
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: they let the registration go and now some web design company has it
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: seems all the libomv devs are gone with the wind
[11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: I could do a few libomv fixes
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: Is lkalif definitely lost?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hard to say
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont expect him back anytime soon
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: if ever
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: he is very ill
[11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: quaternions are messed up and the teleport command in testclient wont do hypergrid
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: :(
[11:12]  Dahlia Trimble: :(
[11:12]  Robert Adams: so, I thought we should fork libmov into our own github account and create the version for OS
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: as much as I seriously hope he recovers and comes back, I think we need to all be prepared for him to not come back
[11:12]  Dahlia Trimble: we could fork into opensim-libs
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker not gone, but stopped working on stuff.
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I don't like the fragmentation, though I don't know how mayn people are still using libomv for other things. I think there are some
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: the only place it lives on at this point is github
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: they do have a google code page too
[11:13]  Dahlia Trimble: lots of people in SL use libomv
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: but that will be gone very soon
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: their google code conversation page has recent postings
[11:13]  Robert Adams: true justin, but we need a version for us... and like we put copies into opensim-libs, we should do that for libomv
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't really want to be respionsible for that usage. if something specific for opensim somehow breaks sl used stuff
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: do you have a link?
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: let me look
[11:13]  Dahlia Trimble: and without larif, noone is keeping up with protocol changes
[11:14]  Jim Jackson: Hi Sim
[11:14]  Robert Adams: and if we do it on github, other people can use our patches
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: there actually is a copy in opensim-libs still I think, though likely not up to date
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi:!forum/libomv-dev
[11:14]  sim core: (-: Allo, Jim
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: I suspect this page will disappear soon
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: with all of google code
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: yeah, I think github is a muich better solution. If somehow it went tits up it wouldn't be that hard to rehost a git repo
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: good point
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: don't know if groups is going down with the ship or not
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadON: gdoups should be entirely separeate
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker git + local copy on cd
[11:15]  Allen Kerensky: even google code is closing and migrating to github
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: If other people had direct access to libomv repo would you be prepared to deal with linden lab bugs if they are triggered by changes?
[11:15]  Dahlia Trimble: even microsoft is using github
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: If someone needs the code and it breaks
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: the person who needs it should be the one submitting patches honestly
[11:16]  Robert Adams: opensim-core should create a github account and host the git version of OpenSim as well as forks of other libraries we rely on
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont see anything wrong with us commiting the patches
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: There already is the mirror repo on git, and an OpenSim organization
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: we have mirrors on github
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: with github people can fork
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: and we can cherry pick
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: that should be the requirement for patch submission
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: if there is one
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: forking is very different on github than the old connotation of hostile forks
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:17]  Robert Adams: what Neb said...
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: Ive merged from github forks before, it wasnt pretty
[11:17]  Xena wirsing: Hello all
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi xena
[11:17]  Robert Adams: hello Xena
[11:18]  Dahlia Trimble: (the pgsql merge fiasco)
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: that wasnt fun
[11:18]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think it really matters what VCS one uses. A merge can often be messy.
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: but were talking about github > github
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: not github to external
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: It might be better to fork libomv in github than for me to add admins directly.
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: it should be much more simplified if we force everyone to github
[11:19]  Dahlia Trimble: justin, add some committers
[11:19]  Dahlia Trimble: if you can
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I meant committers
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: that is what I am thinking Justin
[11:19]  Robert Adams: the OpenSim github account is Diva and Justin
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: committers to the opensim org or libomv?
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: to opensim
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: since technically libomv isnt really ours
[11:19]  Robert Adams: we can add a libomv fork there and maybe open up committers a little
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it would kind of be a hostile take over
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, though I think a switch certainly has to be mailing list discussed first
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: who knows if anyone else is actually planning on maintaining it or not
[11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: Ive contributed many many patches to libomv over the years
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont even know how to contact most of them
[11:20]  Robert Adams: if the base libomv become alive, nothing stopping them pulling all the commits from any forks
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: I can't do much at the moment since I have literally no time to work on opensim
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: I honestly think the only non opensim person was Latif though
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: just for now
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: no rush
[11:21]  Robert Adams: that's way it needs to be more than just you, Justin (or just any one of us for that matter)
[11:21]  Dahlia Trimble: justin, who else can add committers?
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: to opensim or libomv?
[11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: liomv
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: owners at
[11:23]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ah nice
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: what is your github id?
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought BlueWall could
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i havent seen him in a while
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: mine is nebadon2025
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: if you want to add me
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, this is a good point. Mayube i am not actually a libomv admin
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what I was wondering
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: I wasnt sure if any of us were
[11:24]  Shez Oyen: Hey Hiro :)
[11:24]  Hiro Protagonist: Hi Shez :D
[11:24]  Hiro Protagonist: Sorry to be late y'all I got some work I been doing around the house today and missed the call
[11:25]  Robert Adams: I'm 'misterblue' on github
[11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: well I have my fixes in a private extention dll, if they want them they can ask me
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I can't add people.
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:26]  Robert Adams: so not admin on account... another reason why we need to fork
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: then it looks like fork is the only option
<network failure on sim>
[11:29]  Robert Adams is feeling a network hickup
[11:29]  Freaky.Tech is Online
[11:29]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline
[11:29]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:29]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:29]  Connected
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: crash?
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I think it was network
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: there was a mass of slow asset spew
[11:29]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: then it dumped
[11:29]  amsterdam Bingyi: hi folks
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i think it was either network
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: or it ran out of threads for a moment
[11:29]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:29]  Connected
[11:29]  Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: the spew was very breif
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe 60 seconds
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt loose SSH though
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: so probably threads
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: misterblue: I sent an invite to you for the opensim github org
[11:30]  Robert Adams: there are some problems in the HG networking stuff.... makes for some lags that are hard to find/characterize
[11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: could someone fill me on the libomv issue?
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: domain was lost
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: they let it go
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't commit anything to that opensim repo though - I'm not sure what would happen as it's a mirror
[11:31]  Robert Adams: great, thanks justin
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty much all the libomv devs other than opensim devs are gone
[11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: are they abandoning the project?
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: its been abandoned for some time now
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: since Latif left
[11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: oh ok
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: lkalif was last man standing pretty much
[11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: I didnt know he did
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: hes very ill
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, bad way to phrase things
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: he didnt leave by choice
[11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: sorry to hear that
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: yea sucks
[11:31]  Robert Adams: Hiro, we just need a place for us to add things OS requires of libomv
[11:32]  Robert Adams: ya, lkalif is missed :-(
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its kind of surprising that there were not more SL people maintaining Libomv
[11:32]  Hiro Protagonist: do we have hosting for it?
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya github
[11:32]  Hiro Protagonist: true dat
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: makes it a lot easier
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: since its not a high volume project
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its mostly tweaks and fixes
[11:33]  Hiro Protagonist: nods
[11:33]  Robert Adams: that's my third topic for this meeting (getting more developers working on OS)... but I haven't broached my second yet ;-)
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: its surprising that more SL folks are not maintaining it though
[11:33]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah that is surprisinng
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess LL has really put a crimp in bots
[11:33]  Hiro Protagonist: ok robert I'll bite
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: so maybe not as popular as it once was
[11:33]  Hiro Protagonist: what's the second?
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: SL allows bots
[11:33]  Richardus.Raymaker bot's need to be registrated etc. sofar i know
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: yea but didnt they limit bot usage a while back?
[11:34]  Robert Adams: topic: I think the os functions in LSL should be enabled by default
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont even remember now
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: they said they did but dont enforce
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: ah
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: figures
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: all of them?
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble suspects the secretly like bots
[11:34]  Richardus.Raymaker robert, thats scary what you say
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: pump up the numbers
[11:34]  Hiro Protagonist: +1 robert
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: which OS functions?
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: all of them?
[11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: and radegast had a reasonable standing on the TPV list
[11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: all of 'em :)
[11:35]  Robert Adams: there are security concerns about all of them.... but there are a bunch that, if generally available, would make a lot possible
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker unless it's default configured for estate owner only.
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think it would be wise to do all of them
[11:35]  Kayaker Magic: +1 Robert
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: but there are some that should be for sure
[11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah Rira I also think it should be owner-only
[11:35]  Robert Adams: the one I REALLY need is osGetPhysicsEngineType() as the vehicle scripters NEED to know which physics engine
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought that one should work all the time?
[11:36]  Kayaker Magic: The ossl functions are currently useless and never enabled. You cannon count on them being there, you can never use them in portable code.
[11:36]  dadix forever: can we speak about voxels in opensim ? is my favorite subject :)
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: dadix, I would suggest finding viewer developers interested in voxels
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: because without a viewer
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: there is nothing opensim devs can do to support them
[11:36]  Robert Adams: osGetPhysicsEngineType doesn't throw an exception if os functions are disabled... it still doesn't return the answer
[11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: dadix, patches are welcome :)
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: do you know why it's labelled as threat level high?
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ahh I see
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: yea we should turn on OSSL by default
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no reason
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: however I am not 100% on making all ossl functions available
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: but we should reconsider some of them for sure
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Melanie will probably tell you the reason :)
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: well some of them could be dangerous
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:38]  Ken Savage: There are many of them that are totally harmless.
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: like osConsoleCommand
[11:38]  dadix forever: just a question, can be voxels added like a plugin to the core?
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: or whatever
[11:38]  Robert Adams: she has some concern about griefers (if they know the simulator parameters they will know what to attack)
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: sure, but they can be disabled
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: if you dont want them
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: some however should never be enabled
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you have things very locked down
[11:38]  Robert Adams: but there are so many other easy ways to grief I think that is not a viable veto arguement
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: There is a principle that you should give away as little info about the system as possible. But in this case it probably does more harm than good
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are a thousand other ways to attack the system
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: oh yea
[11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps the level of os functions allowed by default can be raised.
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: even making them owner only
[11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: dadix, it depends on what you want the voxels to do
[11:39]  OtakuMegane Desu: Some could be, yes. But the majority I don't see how they'd be any worse than what LSL could do or a look at stuff like 'About Land'.
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: could end in tragedy
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: if you trick an owner into rezzing one
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that has console command enabled
[11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker is it possible to link ossl default to estate owner. and you can change that by default. it limits at least the risdk for the other commands
[11:39]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev        8d66284: 2015-04-05 20:20:37 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: Voxel engines are usually fundamentally designed around voxels
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: most are relatively harmless though
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: so dont expect much
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, stuff like osConsoleCommand is as scary as hell
[11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: the thing is, all scripting could and should be set (by default) to allow onlyy owners to script
[11:40]  Robert Adams: I would add a section in OpenSimDefaults that enables a bunch of os function and makes a bunch of them owner or estate or parcel only
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[11:40]  Andrew Hellershanks: I woudn't console command enabled by default.
[11:40]  Andrew Hellershanks: wouldn't want
[11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker yes
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: osTeleportAgent is another one
[11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: were that the case, having the full suite of availble functionality would not present the perceived risk
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: that i guess is relateively safe as long as its owner only
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant allow that for everyone
[11:40]  Robert Adams: something like this:
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:41]  Andrew Hellershanks: Is tp agent that dangerous?
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: you can make attachments
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: and bump into people
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: and teleport them away
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: even out of the grid
[11:41]  Andrew Hellershanks: It would be annoying. I don't see it being dangerous.
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: well it should be either off by default or region owner only
[11:42]  Robert Adams: there are many that are dangerous and I don't want those.... but all the others are never used because they are never available by default
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: that would make it way less annoying
[11:42]  Hiro Protagonist: and again, if the defaults were such that not every visitor could run scripts then it wouldn't be a problem
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: even just turning on OSSL by defalt goes a long way
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: even if we dont change anything
[11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, hence my suggesting that we could raise the level of functions enabled by default rather thanturn all of them on.
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid release has it on by default
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I'm a little uneasy about osSetDynamicTexture* stuff since they can pump assets into a database
[11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: RObert's idea doesn't suck, just clamp everything down hard, and then have a config file full of exceptions
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that too
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: but apart from that it looks pretty reasonable to me
[11:43]  Richardus.Raymaker it would be nice to have the ossl list default in opensim.ini
[11:43]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, Possible as long as it doesn't get to be a maintenance headache/nightmare.
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: we should do an include
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: and have a seperate OSSL ini
[11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: Andrew we crossed that bridge ages ago hahahaha
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: so not to make opensim.ini more unreadable than it already is
[11:44]  Robert Adams: I will make a proposal in the dev mailing list and see if I can get the discussion going
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks Robert
[11:44]  Richardus.Raymaker hehe better
[11:44]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, yea. Ok, if it doesn't make it more of a headache/nightmare than it already is ;)
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I will try and help but can't guarantee much at all just right now
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think this should be discussed in open dev - core isn't an appropriate place
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds good
[11:45]  Robert Adams: yes.... a dev discussion and not a core discussion
[11:45]  Andrew Hellershanks: It could make for a lively discussion thread
[11:46]  Dahlia Trimble puts popcorn on the shopping list...
[11:46]  Robert Adams: it might be good for even users.... I run into content creators who need more support
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: we should definitely have a seperate OSSL ini like yours Robert
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: and use an include
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: this way its much easier to tune it up
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: people dont have to go hunting
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: Wouldn'tg this be in OpenSimDefaults.ini though?
[11:46]  Shez Oyen: Yeah, it's the way to go
[11:46]  Robert Adams: I just put the OpenSimAllows.ini in the bin/config directory and it gets read
[11:46]  Hiro Protagonist: that seems like a good way to get to where we need to be without dictating policy tofolks who's use cases we are not able to anticipate
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: because then you have to copy it etc..
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: shouldnt be changing OpenSimDefaults.ini
[11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker it is, and always you need to be carefull what you copy
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and if its seperate it doesnt clutter OpenSim.ini
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: but you would then override it
[11:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSimAllows.ini.example
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: Meh, I guess I see what you are saying
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, this whole config thing is a mess
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: yea we could have it disabled by default
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: with and example line how to enable it
[11:48]  Robert Adams: this leads into the endless discussion on ocnfiguration files :)
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: if your worried about it being on by default
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, agreed.
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: true
[11:48]  Hiro Protagonist: Robert yup
[11:48]  Hiro Protagonist: happens about every six months
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: having it seperated seems cleaner to me
[11:48]  Shez Oyen: nods
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: but I won't fight it if others think its overkill
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: The issue I have on config stuff is that the code doesn't always check that some things are properly set before the code tries to use a setting.
[11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker it's more easy to work with. compare iit. if the same copy old ossl ini over
[11:49]  Robert Adams: I want os functions on by default with the dangerous ones properly throttled.... this is OpenSim and not SL and if you want to be SL compatible, you can turn them off
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I just don't like the inconsistency of everything. But that means either making a bunch of changes or none, so maybe inconsistency will just have to start
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: and get resolved if it's that painful
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: what else is cool about using include
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: we could easily drop in new ones
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: have different levels of safety
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: just change 1 line in OpenSim.ini to point do a different ini you drop in
[11:50]  Robert Adams: any INI file in the bin/config directory is automatically included
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: so name it example
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: and have people manually change it
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think the point is that it isn't an example
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: yea true
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: guess that would require a subfolder?
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't really want people to have to copy yet another file to get things to startup
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: like /bin/OSSL
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: or something
[11:50]  Robert Adams: yes... should be on by default..... it should be easily disableable... but that is just turning os functions off
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: yea tough call heh
[11:51]  Andrew Hellershanks: If you name it .ini then you have the problem of a user customized file getting overwritten during an upgrade of code.
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: i was just throwing ideas out
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: im certainly not sold on my way by any means :)
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: The argument you may meet is that it changes the historical default settings for people who don't want any ossl
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: The other way to have them on by default is to change the ini to let you specify what should be disabled.
[11:52]  Robert Adams: if they care, they can change it.... most of the people who really don't want the os functions have created their own config scripts/system anyway
[11:52]  Robert Adams: they aren't using default settings
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: although if they just update the os install they may end up including a new bin/config file anyway
[11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: I just had a mental image of doing the equivalent of the Linux kernel 'make config' step to configure OpenSim
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think that was imagined a long time ago but nothing ever came of it
[11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: :)
[11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: it would at least be familiar
[11:54]  Sarah Kline: i dont know why we need all the really dangerous scripted functions..they would be better left on the console ..ducks
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, like the Linux kernel it would be a million options where you only understand 1% of them :)
[11:54]  Robert Adams: I, along with everybody else, hate the existing configuration system.... but changes have not been agreed upon
[11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: Sarah: consider a region-wide holodeck facilitated with the use of osConsoleCommand and a library of OAR files
[11:55]  Sarah Kline: is trying very hard
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: I stopped wanting to build Linux kernels a while back. The list of questions was just getting way too long and you could still get a question wrong and it would prevent something else from working right.
[11:55]  Sarah Kline: ah i see )
[11:55]  Robert Adams: that particular os function is only for the few.... should never be turned on except by someone who REALLY knows what they are doing
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: it may be simpler to do changes in baby steps, first start by enabling OSSL for everyone
[11:56]  Hiro Protagonist: I just stopped needing to, as linux began to really support tons of hardware with modules right out of the box
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: without any changes to permissions
[11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont think Ive built linux kernel for at least 10 years
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: this way its not such a drastic change all at once
[11:56]  Hiro Protagonist: thats probably wise Neb
[11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: oh wait.... I installed gentoo on a vm a couple years ago
[11:56]  Robert Adams: that's a good idea Neb.... I'll start my proposal there
[11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, yeah. That was the other change that meant I didn't need to build a kernel. It alrready had what I needed.
[11:57]  Richardus.Raymaker last time i made a kernel where when i used slackware. and thats 10+ years
[11:57]  Robert Adams: looks like I ran out of time for my third topic :)
[11:57]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, go for it. We often run overtime.
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: quick overview?
[11:57]  Hiro Protagonist: what was it though suspense will kill me lol
[11:58]  Sarah Kline: exactly )
[11:58]  Robert Adams: we need to get more developers working on OpenSim...
[11:58]  Dahlia Trimble: time to consider inviting some of our recent patch submitters :)
[11:58]  Robert Adams: I see the VW thing taking off and with LL working on SL2, Facebook doing things and a million companies spouting up
[11:58]  Robert Adams: the "SL based" world could become irrelevant in a year or two
[11:59]  Robert Adams: so what should we be doing to make OpenSim the base for the next generation of VWs?
[11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, the biggest issue is the size of the code base. Just getting to know how it all hangs together is rather daunting.
[11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: (start over)
[11:59]  dadix forever: voxels
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: lol
[11:59]  Shez Oyen: LOL Dahlia
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: I think thats a 2 part solution Robert
[11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: then there is the issue of the viewer
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker +1 dahlia, thats the only answhere i can think to say
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: we need more people working on OnLook viewer too
[11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, documentation of the code base? (except it changes too quickly?)
[12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: but I think Dahlia really just cut to the chase
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: or if not OnLook viewer, some non SL variant of Viewer
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt totally conform to SL rules
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: seriously... 95% of the code base is designed around SL business model
[12:00]  Robert Adams: all of the above!!
[12:00]  Robert Adams: but we should start thinking about it
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: Robert, please contact Diva
[12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: not only that, but we need to be looking seriously at some things that would extend the viewer's functionality
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll try to get her here next week
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: she should have some more time now
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: word, dahlia
[12:01]  dadix forever: you must do opensim based on voxel and to have an option to import maps from minecraft and minetest
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker i would more try to be compatible with High Fidelity..
[12:01]  OtakuMegane Desu: As someone who would like to dev eventually the biggest "barrier" I see personally is getting serious changes done when needed. Just what I'm seeing personally a bit intimidating.
[12:01]  Robert Adams: we've played with HG and new modules and somepeole have played with new protocols and viewers
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: dadix: seriously, you are wasting your time and ours
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: Im on the fence with highfidelity
[12:01]  Robert Adams: but we haven't really pulled together the 'extensible' story
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure its the future of virtual worlds at this point
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: lol minecraft
[12:02]  Richardus.Raymaker voxels with the SL viewer. thats asking foir disaster. unless the voxels are 2D
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: its way to soon to be trying to do anything with them
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: other than either check it out or dive completely in as a programmer/developer
[12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, I've stuck to working on small aspects of OS that need changing/fixing because I don't have the time, or serious enough interest, to spend the time needed to learn enough about the OS code base to get in to the types of issues that Justin works on.
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: its not a world for users at this point
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: there's no shortage of minecraft clones out there
[12:02]  Hiro Protagonist: Hifi, in my less than humble opinion is very cool technology but so nascent as to be newsworthy only in what it hopes to achieve
[12:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: The long-distance future of virtual worlds isn't hard to figure. The path there however could go so many ways right now
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: OS is a big codebase and one of the worst problems imaginable
[12:03]  Robert Adams: Hifi uses a heiarchical scene storage system that can have meshes or voxels at the leaves.... best of both worlds
[12:03]  Allen Kerensky: i'd like to add a built in RP database system to OpenSim - but figuring out how has been fruitless so far
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: one thing I dont like about HighFidelity right now
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: is the complete lack of asset protection
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think you could argue opensim/sl is too monolithic
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker but hiro, i think you can build opensim based system on top of hifi
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: all of your assets are 100% exposed to the web
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist: Justin: yes
[12:04]  Hiro Protagonist: Neb I think that's the direction things are going, becasue that is the kind of place the web is
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: We still need to look at better ways to store asset data.
[12:04]  Robert Adams: I don't have the answer, but us devs should start thinking and plotting...
[12:04]  Richardus.Raymaker Neb, thats going to get better
[12:04]  Hiro Protagonist: they have no real concept of asset service
[12:04]  Hiro Protagonist: its completely decoupled
[12:04]  Hiro Protagonist: from a technology perspective, that is ideal
[12:05]  Hiro Protagonist: it leverages the existing service space
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker saves you lots of headaces and drama too hiro
[12:05]  Hiro Protagonist: its brilliant
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: I have lots of plots Robert, they just take a lot of time to implement :)
[12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: We all need longer days
[12:05]  Robert Adams: I like a lot of HiFi's architecture.... and they are trying to be the banker and grid service for everybody's grid
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I think theSL system is the problem. But starting from scratch is also a huge undertaking. I've seen a lot of attempts that got nowhere
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: unless you have funding of many people for years and years
[12:06]  Richardus.Raymaker Thats why you maby can use the hifi codebase
[12:06]  Robert Adams: I keep buying lottery tickets :)
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:06]  Hiro Protagonist: true Robert, but my understanding is you can establish separatet and independent metaverses on the codebase that do not participate in their system
[12:06]  Ken Savage: Crowd funding
[12:06]  Robert Adams: anyway... gotta run.... we need to keep up the discussion, though
[12:06]  Richardus.Raymaker bye robert
[12:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: cya, Robert
[12:07]  Sarah Kline: bye Robert
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: rithanks Robert
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: bye Robert
[12:07]  Hiro Protagonist: tc Robert and thanks
[12:07]  Ken Savage: Tanks Robert!
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: I need to run too. It's quite likely I won't be here next week.
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble runs too, bye all :)
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I might be as well
[12:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: I should head out of here shortly
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks
[12:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: bye, justin
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