Chat log from the meeting on 2015-03-24

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[10:56]  Connected
[11:00]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:00]  Richardus.Raymaker hi dahlia
[11:00]  Richardus.Raymaker hi neb
[11:00]  Aine.Caoimhe waves
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin messaged me on skype earlier he will be unable to attend today
[11:00]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:01]  Dahlia Trimble: he seems busy lately
[11:01]  Alicia.Raven hello everyone :)
[11:01]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Alicia
[11:01]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:01]  Ubit Umarov is Offline
[11:02]  Ubit Umarov is Online
[11:02]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I saw your response to Sean on mailing list about PhysX Dahlia
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: my feelings are pretty mixed on it
[11:04]  Dahlia Trimble: I saw yours
[11:04]  Dahlia Trimble: people are going to do what they want
[11:05]  Kayaker Magic: I saw no response that indicated there was going to be a Physx binding for Linux.
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that is quite obvious, and he has good and valid points for sure
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: but my worry is that it will very much be a one way valve
[11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: probably
[11:05]  Hiro Protagonist: could one of y'all summarize a little?
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: if we bring their code into OpenSim and change it things would likely split / fork at that point
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: MOSES grid is talking about integrating Nvidia PhysX into their OpenSim branch
[11:06]  Hiro Protagonist: ahh
[11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: just because they release it doesn't mean we take it
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker if am right you talk about that one
[11:06]  Hiro Protagonist: thanks RiRa
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: and making it available to everyone of course, but that would mean an OpenSim dev would need to bring the code over
[11:07]  Hiro Protagonist: question: why wouldnt we?
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: no its not that one
[11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker PhysX can be intressting. but it need to work with lsl the same as SL. and then you can expand it with OSSL
[11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker ohh. ok.
[11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker sorry, wrong one indeed
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi:
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi whispers: well if you read the thread, they make it clear that they do not really intend on staying compatible with "SL
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: I don't understand that argument: Why must PhysX work with LSL the way SL does? ODE does not. BulletSim does not. Why not PhyX also?
[11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: which i assume means making sure that LSL works correctly etc..
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: and that vehicles work as expected
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker Kayaker. i mean with how verhicles are handled.
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: the question really comes down to also, is it better than BulletSim
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker hi otaku
[11:09]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hi
[11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: vehicles break in SL when they update havok from one version to another
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: bringing in physX likely means BulletSim development would either slow considerably or worse stop
[11:09]  Robert Adams is Online
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ah cool Robert is here
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker i wanted to try a plane in inworldz. but there's no free one. only expensive ones
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe he can share what he thinks
[11:10]  Dahlia Trimble: if SL cant keep them working across havok versons, I dont see how we can
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker at least not found one.
[11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: I think it's good to have options, but it helps if everything works fairly well and moves forward more or less on the same curve
[11:10]  BlueWall Slade is Online
[11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: it irks me somehow when it becomes a 'this' vs 'that' conversation
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: well that is true and I am not so much worried about that
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert :)
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker hi robert
[11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: hey-o, Robert Adams :)
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: we were just talking about the PhysX email thread
[11:11]  Robert Adams: hello all
[11:11]  Robert Adams: what should I be thinking about?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: pros and cons of bringing what they do into core, if indeed they get that far to share it
[11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: they are going to do what they want. We may as well make some acceptance critera known at the start
[11:11]  Hiro Protagonist: Uhm, a classic genoa salami submarine sandwich with olive relish
[11:11]  Robert Adams: are we talking about the PhysX thing?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:11]  Hiro Protagonist: lol yes
[11:12]  OtakuMegane Desu: Unless PhysX can give something(s) significant that Bullet can't then BulletSim really should at least have dev priority.
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: just tossing thoughts around is all, its really too early for anything but speculation at this point
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:12]  Robert Adams: my opinion is they should go for it if they need it for their grid
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: yea well of course, I have no problem with that
[11:12]  Hiro Protagonist: my opinion is they should go for it if they plan to do (most of) the work
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: my thoughts were more around bringing anything they do into core
[11:12]  Robert Adams: as to putting it into OS, it would need to support multiple platforms and otherwise fit into the physics module system
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: and how that may or may not effect BulletSim
[11:12]  Dahlia Trimble: Otaku, priority usually goes to whatever the *unpaid* devs want to work on
[11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah if their changes dont play nice with opensim, I think they are effectively forking
[11:13]  OtakuMegane Desu: lol, well yes
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: what I would hate to see is work on BulletSim slow or stop to work on yet another physx engine
[11:13]  Robert Adams: and, while it would be nice if their engineer time could be spent on improving what we already have, they are going to do their own thing
[11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe what is it that makes them want to go that route rather than spending the time expanding/improving Bullet?
[11:13]  Kayaker Magic: Richardus: Look up Judy Dressler's shop in InWorldz, she leaves demo planes out to try. She was into planes in SL once, so the scripts are similar to SL ones.
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker ok
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: what are your thoughts on BulletSim 3 like Sean mentioned Robert?
[11:14]  Hiro Protagonist: they probably have personnel with skillsets they can leverage in that tech Aine
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: having the ability for Multithread / GPU
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: is that a pipe dream for BulletSim?
[11:14]  Robert Adams: I haven't talked to them about why they chose PhysX... could be some GPU vendor has been talking to them :)
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker Robert, is tehre a trick ton avoid shaking camera on slope terrain when you walk.
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker Maby the want to move the load from cpu to GPU ?
[11:14]  Robert Adams: Richardus I haven't seen that problem
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: check Seans last response on that email Thread Robert
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: he lays out in detail why they chose it
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: and I can tell you pretty much exactly what brought this on
[11:15]  Dahlia Trimble: There's probably a lot going on behind the scenes related to their funding that we know nothing about which may influence their decisions
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker Ok. robert. i come back on the problem when im done with the stronger pc. maby that helps
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: at FCVW InWorldz did a presentation that included showing off their physics engine
[11:15]  Robert Adams: Bullet3 has multi-threads and GPU... I'd hoped it would have happened years ago because that was the origional reason I started on BulletSim
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: which to me honestly wasnt that impressive, but aparantly it caught dougs eye
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker I stay with bullet
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker and opensim use bullet 2 ?
[11:16]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah Robert and company have worked mircales moving bullet forward. So far, its a decent fit.
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: would it be hard to transition from the version of bullet we use to Bullet3?
[11:16]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker it would be nice to have multi threads
[11:17]  Robert Adams: PhysX does MUCH better than Bullet on mesh to mesh collisions... InWorldZ can build pretty impressive engines (pistons, gears, ...)
[11:17]  Hiro Protagonist: And if that can be improved upon and/or complimented, thats great, but I dont think we should really try to prefer anything except it excite some dev passion
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: the thing that bothers me about adding more physics options is how distributing physics based objects and vehicles over the hypergrid may be impacted
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: btw for those that got here after I mentioned it earlier, Justin messaged me on Skype earlier and said he would be unable to attend the meeting today
[11:17]  OtakuMegane Desu: That's a very good point Dahlia
[11:17]  Robert Adams: I know MOSES wants realistic vehicles (springed wheeles, ...)
[11:17]  OtakuMegane Desu: Vehicles are tricky as it is
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: we do have the ability with OSSL to detect the physics engine
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: of course it does make development more difficult
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: you could just make your script not work on anything but bullet though
[11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker Thats why i say physx need to be lsl SL compatible with verhicles
[11:18]  Dahlia Trimble: ODE offers wheel suspension I believe, but I dont think our APIs expose it
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: to prevent to much pain for folks
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: we sort of do with Ninja Physics
[11:18]  Hiro Protagonist: yes dahlia it does
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: but its not good enough for use in vehicles
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: infact its down right dangerous to even try
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i do not suggest it
[11:18]  Robert Adams: I started adding flexible linksets to BUlletSim mostly for fancy vehicles
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you like hacking your database to get your region to start again
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:19]  Hiro Protagonist: ode does a lot of stuff we never tried to take advantage of; it simulates a little more deeply than we usually try to accomplish (or need to)
[11:19]  Robert Adams: 'flexible linksets' means changing linksets links to hinges or springs or ...
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that would be awesome Robert
[11:19]  Robert Adams: The other alternative is a whole new vehicle model -- replace the SL legacy vehicle
[11:19]  Dahlia Trimble: they could also try doing vehicle suspensions client-side
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: one thing I completely disagree with MOSES on the topic of Bullet and their justification for not using it
[11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker OSSL verhicles
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: is High CPU
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: +
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: when its been said many times that not much optimization has gone into Physics
[11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: What walks down stairs alone or in pairs... :D
[11:20]  Richardus.Raymaker bullet = high cpu ?
[11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: When I first started in SL in 2004 the viewer actually exposed a sprung link
[11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: but it was very unstable so no one used it
[11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: it eventually disappeared
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: that seems to be on of Seans justiification for abandoning Bullet for PhysX
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: that it uses to much CPU
[11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: I think bullet used to use more cpu than ode but not sure it still does
[11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah I havent seen high cpu use with bullet vehicles at all
[11:21]  Richardus.Raymaker i mean, not see in how i use bullet strange cpu usage
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: they are talking GPU as well
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately I think their methodology for justifying that is flawed
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: And that don't fly with datacenter hosted
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: but i guess that could be argued either way
[11:21]  Richardus.Raymaker hi b leuwall
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: Hi RiRa
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: well you have to understand, MOSES team has a considerably large Hardware Budget
[11:21]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: and access to crazy hardware
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: they are the army lol
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: so i can see their desire for wanting to use GPU acceleration
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: but, probably 99% of our user base does not
[11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: they can afford it
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: the server we used for FCVW
[11:22]  OtakuMegane Desu: GPU shouldn't be that big an issue for datacenter these days. You don't have to throw top-end stuff at it, a mid-range AATI will run circles around most CPUs in raw processing.
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: has 100 cpu cores and 1tb of ram or something
[11:22]  Robert Adams is Offline
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: it was absurd
[11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: ya you can get servers with gpus
[11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: we lost Robert
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure he will be back
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: gpu == more power though, and when multiplied across a datacenter it would add up.
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: MOSES does not run out of a standard Data center
[11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: you dont need it if you dont need it :)
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: they would have to charge more as well.
[11:23]  Hiro Protagonist: I would think not
[11:23]  Robert Adams is Online
[11:23]  Richardus.Raymaker most datacenters wpuld blow fuses with to many GPU cards :O
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: there are lots of data centers
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: right - that is what I'm saying.
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: where you can send a Full Tower machine for Colocation
[11:23]  OtakuMegane Desu: Depends what GPU. Some of those low-end ones have similar or better processing abaility than Xeons but use the same power
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: and its ultimaitely not super expensive
[11:24]  Sarah Kline is Online
[11:24]  Shez Oyen: WB Robert :)
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe 25-50% more than renting a 1U machine
[11:24]  Hiro Protagonist: wb RA
[11:24]  Robert Adams: sorry about that
[11:24]  Richardus.Raymaker at home i would add low-end in if i would do it, just because power usage
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Robert
[11:24]  Richardus.Raymaker wb robert
[11:24]  Hiro Protagonist: thats what that big X does... :p
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: you could build yourself a nice machine with 4 Nvidia Titans :)
[11:24]  Jim Jackson: Hi Sarah
[11:24]  Robert Adams: when I've tried Bullet with OpenCL, my first discovery was that all the OpenCL libraries are different, multi-versioned, and incompatible
[11:24]  Richardus.Raymaker Now thats bloweing 'something' nebadon
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: but even so, what I think is ultimaitely more attractive
[11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: I really dont have a use for a machine with 4 titans
[11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker hi sarah
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: is CPU with a GPU onboard
[11:25]  Robert Adams: it will be Really Hard to build one OpenCL DLL that will work in many places
[11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: ^
[11:25]  Sarah Kline: hi
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: like an i7 with a HD6000 or something
[11:25]  Hiro Protagonist: +1 neb
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: that could be interesting
[11:25]  Hiro Protagonist: and SSD on MB
[11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: Even if we ignore discrete GPUs, the built-in ones are improving rapidly
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: PhysX i beleive only works with Nvidia?
[11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: not sure
[11:26]  Richardus.Raymaker But, i dont know if robert ansered the question if its difficult to go from bullet2 to bullet3
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: does anyone know if you can do GPu hardware acceleration with AMD GPU?
[11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: Last I checked it was Nvidia, at least for the GPU stuff
[11:26]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[11:26]  Robert Adams: Neb, accelerated,yes.... there is a soft fallback for PhysX
[11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: I think it works on cpu if no capable gpu is available
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ok i wasnt sure if PhysX was Nvidia only
[11:26]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline
[11:26]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: it kind of makes sense it would work on more than Just Nvidia
[11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: unity uses physx
[11:26]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: it may just be not as optimized
[11:26]  BlueWall Slade: if there is no gpu, then what is the performance gain?
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: well multi-thread
[11:27]  Robert Adams: PhysX is an NVidia product.... it and CUDA are their interfaces
[11:27]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bullet will use OpenCL so it'll run on any GPU that has a driver for it
[11:27]  Richardus.Raymaker downside i think
[11:27]  Jim Jackson: hi Hiro
[11:27]  BlueWall Slade: -vs- Bulletsim
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: where current bulletsim is single thread
[11:27]  Richardus.Raymaker But that can be solved nebadon
[11:27]  Robert Adams: there is needed work to allow multiple threads for physics -- there is already a problem of thread starvation in OpenSimulator
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: even if we do get Multithread CPU support on Bulletsim we still need to optimze what a single thread can do
[11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: personally I dont have a physics bottleneck
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: run 2 of my racers :P
[11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: I have
[11:28]  Robert Adams: there also needs to be a new physics API for linksets (the current one is ugly, ugly)
[11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe + Neb
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i admit my racer isnt great though
[11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker only useing keyframemotion mostly
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: I havent had much time or desire to improve it lately
[11:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: It would depend some on what you're doing with physics and the hardware it's running on.
[11:28]  Hiro Protagonist: Robert is that something that can only be soved with mor eprocessor e cores
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: but I have seem some awesome vehicles
[11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker how is opensim run out of threads , intrestsing to know
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: the Mars Rover from Cutuelala
[11:28]  Hiro Protagonist: (less the typos)
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: is just awesome
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: it runs awesome even on BulletXNA
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: on my raspberry pi
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: had 2 of those running around on the Pi
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and it was actually quite good
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: one of the people testing my llLookAt() fix had over 300 objects running at the same time
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: bullet :)
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:29]  Robert Adams: there are lots of other OpenSim bugs to fix :)
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: yep
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker yup
[11:30]  BlueWall Slade: not many resources to fix them
[11:30]  Dahlia Trimble: and some devs have their own pet projects :)
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: yea opensim in general as good as it runs, could definitely stand for some major optimizing
[11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: we did a load test for vehicles (impromptu) involving two or three aircraft, a dozen sailboats, and a couple of powerboats, plus random cars... all on a var at osgrid international
[11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: it got laggy, but it worked
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: Xengine for one
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: is definitely a weak link
[11:30]  Robert Adams: long term, OS had to think about its architecture and extensions.... when SL2 comes out expectations will change
[11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: it was no worse than sailing blake sea in sl on any sunday afternoon
[11:30]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Scripting seems to be a big weak point right now. And threads.
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker Or people run screaming away from SL2
[11:31]  Robert Adams has been thinking of fixing C# to be a usable scripting language
[11:31]  OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[11:31]  Aine.Caoimhe the single viewer being able to kil a region is a slight issue too....
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: much credit to Melanie for getting scripting as good as it is, but I think it could be better still
[11:31]  OtakuMegane Desu needs to learn C# -_-
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: yea for sure, Xengine is pretty good for sure
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: things like sleeps though
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: suck
[11:32]  Robert Adams: it's not just SL2.... HighFIdelity and all the VW and AR stuff coming out... the pure client/server/viewer model of SL will be expanding
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: it does a good job
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: preemptive multitasking....
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: some things are bottlenecked in it though
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: SL2 i dont see being much of a threat honestly
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: HighFidelity also not super impressed with what I have seen to date
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: unless they are hiding something from everyone
[11:33]  Richardus.Raymaker I lost my head a bit in the new stuff. it only showed me that opensim is much better at points then the new things
[11:33]  Aine.Caoimhe LS2 goes to early alpha this summer supposedly, for peole with Maya skills
[11:33]  BlueWall Slade: they can wiggle their eyebrows when they talk
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: Highfidelty seems way to difficult to use for the masses
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and from what ive heard about SL2, it wont have collaberative prim style building
[11:33]  Richardus.Raymaker Neb, it's just did the opposite for me. it showed me how good SL1 and opensim is
[11:33]  OtakuMegane Desu: SL2 will probably get marketed as a prettier 3D social network. :P
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant imagine how SL2 will succeed if they dont follow that model
[11:33]  Robert Adams: HiFi is the SL people making their second system
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: if its just pro modelers selling to consumers
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: thats a flawed plan
[11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe ++
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: BlueMars flopped for same reason
[11:34]  Robert Adams: wonder what happened to Cloud Party... I thought that was a good thing before it disappeared
[11:34]  Richardus.Raymaker Well, thats the first Meh Step.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: Yahoo bought them
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: and shut it down
[11:34]  Richardus.Raymaker i think opensim need to spend more love in Hypergrid systems
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: god knows why
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: but ultimately cloud part was also to difficult for the masses
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: was awesome display of what WebGL could do
[11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe it would be nice not to get spammed with FRs every time I come here
[11:34]  OtakuMegane Desu: SL2 will probably have some neat technical aspects but I honestly doubt as to it being a raging success or anything.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: but i think it was way to hard to use
[11:35]  Sarah Kline: they are developing it with Maya , but ordinary users will be able to use Blender ect when it comes out
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker The say, SL2 will be more easy to use then SL1. uhmm SL1 where never hard to use. until the made SL3 viewer. :O but there still TPV's
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: use and create are 2 different things though
[11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: yes
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: I suspect SL2 will be 2 different things
[11:36]  Robert Adams: when thinking of the future, rather than fretting over physics engines we need to think how to increase the number of OS developers and users
[11:36]  Richardus.Raymaker Sarah, if i look at hifi. and i can. it dont gives me much trust in SL2
[11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: webgl can do a lot but is still way behind what native opengl apps can do, and opengl is starting to become depricated in favor of newer API concepts such as vulkan
[11:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: The only thing that was ever a big learning curve for SL was building and scripting. Navigation and communicating was no worse than most MMOs
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: Consumers and Sellers
[11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: Robert Adams, yes
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: there will be very clear distinct lines and very little crossover
[11:36]  Robert Adams: what can we do differently than all those other systems to make us The One
[11:36]  BlueWall Slade: ++ Robert
[11:36]  Richardus.Raymaker And that made me the comculsion that opensim is not bad and only can get better
[11:36]  Robert Adams: our current strength is that people can run their own regions/grids.... is there more we can do?
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure we can ever be "The One"
[11:36]  Aine.Caoimhe better HG suppose
[11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: I've been in SL a bit lately, and jaws start dropping when I start talking about opensim
[11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe that's the big selling point of opensim, really
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its david and goliath
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker Also, the say its not hard to relearn lsl to C#. but are people willing to realearn everything ?
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: SL and Hifidelity literally have millions, 10's of millions of dollars in investment and development
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker DO yopu see people the whoel day with voice or oculus rift oin the head ?
[11:37]  Hiro Protagonist: david di come out ahead in that confrontation ;)
[11:37]  Dahlia Trimble: I think animation is a big empty hole in SL/OpenSIm
[11:37]  BlueWall Slade: But, Apache has great success as a web server.
[11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe that's viewer-imposed as much as anything I think Dahlia
[11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker Opensim get at the point more people can go to it.
[11:38]  BlueWall Slade: It doesnt' have to be backed by huge money.
[11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: Aine, yes, but it needs to be addressed
[11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker Also virtual world on mobile phone. hmmm
[11:38]  BlueWall Slade: Just huge interest
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:38]  Aine.Caoimhe one armature that's pretty much locked is a major issue
[11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: Too much money without proper management is more hindrance than help
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: I agree
[11:38]  BlueWall Slade: ++Desu
[11:38]  Aine.Caoimhe but getting away from that is a major task
[11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: And frankly LL's management has sucked. Badly.
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: Highfidlity seems to focused on wearable and HID type interfaces
[11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: within the last few days, a viewer has been released on android
[11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: I have not tried it, I do not have an appropriate devcie
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: you mean SL:GO Hiro?
[11:39]  Aine.Caoimhe there would need to be support for armature transmission and handling in the viewers
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: or something else?
[11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: Hiro, a viewer for what?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: SLGO has been around for a while
[11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: I'm not sure, I saw it in passing while rebuilding this box y/d
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: and its not free
[11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: no this is new
[11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: and free
[11:40]  Robert Adams: and HiFi is trying to be the grid backend for multiple services (they provide accounts and asset store and people use their own servers)
[11:40]  OtakuMegane Desu: To Google!
[11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker That sound slike a bad direction nebadon. hid control
[11:40]  Aine.Caoimhe being able to put an armature on an object would be uber-cool though
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: intresting, ive not seen any free graphical android viewers
[11:40]  BlueWall Slade: Is HiFi their new version of OGP?
[11:40]  Robert Adams: if I win the lottery, I'm funding a new viewer.... but that's low probability
[11:40]  BlueWall Slade: haha
[11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: Robert Adams, sounds like they've been taking notes
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think there will be any interop between HiFi and SL2
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: it's hard to render a lot of prims on android
[11:40]  BlueWall Slade: any news on that Mumble project?
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: SL2 will be a walled garden pretty sure
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: very hard
[11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: bbiaf
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker in the view of all this. opensim is missing own viewer code. so you can go away from SL stuff if needed
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: well we should work on OnLook viewer
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker yes neb, i dont see SL2 betetr as SL1
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: we have no inetion of following SL with OnLook viewer
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: I hope it can make a V3 styled interface :)
[11:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hiro, this the one?
[11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: OnLook is fine, but I have no intention on working on LL code
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: one of the goals of OnLook is to have the Interface be programmable by the simulator
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: possibly with Javascript
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: we should make some things operate off web applications
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: so you can have custom hud automatically attach when you enter a sim
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: force different styles of view
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: like mouselook only
[11:43]  Robert Adams: and I still use my Lumiya viewer on my phone.... in fact I attended last week's meeting here on my phone :)
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: no menus
[11:43]  Richardus.Raymaker uhmm, did OSSL not have already command like that. or do you want experience tools nebadon ?
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: relying on server side scripting is not good
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: we are talking about complete viewer mods
[11:43]  Robert Adams: but there have been no updates to Lumiya in a while... don't know what happened to the developer
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: controlled by the simulator itself
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: the ability to have different user levels have differnt huds
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: stuff you can not over ride
[11:44]  Ubit Umarov is Online
[11:44]  Richardus.Raymaker That spounds somethinmg to drive people nuts with :O
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: well it may not be suitable for an environment like OSgrid
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but say you want to do a RPG
[11:45]  Robert Adams: sometime you want RLV, sometimes you don't
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: or shooter style game
[11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: I could never figure out how to teleport to another sim in lumiya
[11:45]  BlueWall Slade: haha, if it changes so much from sim to sim that the user can't recognize the controls, yesh.
[11:45]  OtakuMegane Desu: You'd need some kind of tag or warning about it, like the mature/PG thing.
[11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: nm lol
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: Landmarks is the only way Dahlia
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:45]  Robert Adams: both options should be possible, even in the user interface
[11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: its fs mobile
[11:45]  Richardus.Raymaker It's sounds still like you want some experience style tools. that can be intressting
[11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: avail only apr 1
[11:45]  Ken Savage: I just got here, so I apollogize if it has already been discussed, but the only serious issue I hear complaints about anymore is teleports between var regions.
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ah fs mobile is SLGO
[11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: :3
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: its not free
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a monthly subscription
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: and it doesnt support OS yet
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: but will
[11:46]  BlueWall Slade: in what wy to teleports fail?
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva emailed them about having OnLook be in that same portal
[11:46]  Robert Adams: Dahlia, to do a TP, you goto seearch, select 'place', and search for the destination region... when found, you can teleport to it
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure if we ever heard back on that yet
[11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker TP in var regions work fine on my 0.8.1
[11:46]  Robert Adams: took me a while to figure it out
[11:46]  BlueWall Slade: I have a mix of var + normal regions and they are pretty solid.
[11:46]  Dahlia Trimble: Robert, ty
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ah nice Robert
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: i thought it was Landmarks only
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i could never find that either
[11:47]  Shez Oyen: Ken I have only seen that problem with Firestorm.. Replex lets you TP to any corner.
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i have to say though, lumiya runs pretty terrible on my devices
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i have Galaxy Note 2 and Galaxy Note 8.0
[11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker uhmm, bad me , still need to test that viewer
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: not very good experience
[11:47]  Ken Savage: TP between 2 vars usually fails for most users if you stay very long on the var
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: Yes, Firestorm does't figure out the region size, so you can only click the SW corener.
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i never have problems teleporting between vars myself
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and I do it a lot
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: dozens of times per day
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: me either.
[11:48]  Shez Oyen: hmm haven't noticed that Ken.
[11:48]  Hiro Protagonist: I've not seen it on fs beta 64
[11:48]  Aine.Caoimhe is FS aware of the problem?
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker only problem i see sometimes, and it happend straight after teleport, ;presence not found on the grid' message (or something like that)
[11:48]  Dahlia Trimble: I have problems with border crossings but could just be the old code running my vars
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: my vars are 100% 768x768 though
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: maybe something else is causing it?
[11:48]  Ken Savage: For some reason it usually fails on the sims I am hosting Windows Server 64
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker uhmm, straight after login last time
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its possible larger vars could be problematic
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker not after TP, sometimes it happens random
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: ++ on the 768m regions
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: I found 768x768 to be the most stable
[11:48]  Ken Savage: These are mostly 6x6 vars
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i once had a 4x4 and it was not stable
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: I have a few 1024s
[11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker i use 3x3, but thinking about bigger
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: I had a lot of junk though tere
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: so could be part of my problem
[11:49]  Robert Adams: there are problems with some viewers about the region size changing -- the original viewer code didn't expect region size to change so some values are static or global
[11:49]  Hiro Protagonist: I've found 512s suffer the least from the 'right click lag' issue and still arent tiny
[11:49]  Ken Savage: We have to TP to a normal sim, then we can go to the next var without issues
[11:49]  Robert Adams: I need to add some message suppression code to reduce that lag
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: I have not been able to repo that click thing
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: I canr repro the right click thing
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: these are 6x6 you say Ken?
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: thats awful large if so
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: *cant
[11:50]  BlueWall Slade: haha Dahlia
[11:50]  Shez Oyen: 768 is perfect for me too.. any bigger it seems to take the land too long to rez
[11:50]  Ken Savage: I saw the right click issue today too
[11:50]  Ken Savage: Yes 6x6
[11:50]  Richardus.Raymaker Ken, for me TP is complete broiken. until relog. but maby it's soem othe rproblem too. so need to test it different
[11:50]  Robert Adams: it's caused by OS sending the WHOLE region parcel info whenever you right click
[11:50]  OtakuMegane Desu: It was easy to reproduce the right click issue on a var. On a normal region I couldn't.
[11:50]  Robert Adams: it doesn't need to be sent that often
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: I couldnt on a 768
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I recall Latif getting huffed up about going larger than 1024x1024 vars because of the terrain
[11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: it doesn't seem to affect regions noticably at 512 and less
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: not that it too much to get him going
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:50]  Ken Savage: TPs between normal sims seem to work fine for us, its just the vars
[11:51]  Richardus.Raymaker Ok. 3x3 its only shame you cannot moved Keyframemotion avatars from one var to the other
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: ya terrain memory in the viewer is a problem
[11:51]  Robert Adams: the parcel info can get very big with large varregions
[11:51]  OtakuMegane Desu: From my testing the right click issue would not be problematic as a single user but multiple users could bring a var to a halt
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: I have not had a chance to try the Freaky Tech terrain patches.
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: you can use like a gb of memory
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: because of the terrain if i recall
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: going to large
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: like 2048x2048
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: more parcels == worse ?
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: why do people need to right click so much anyway?
[11:51]  Hiro Protagonist: I run a couple that size
[11:51]  Hiro Protagonist: to build and script dahlia
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: many times a second?
[11:52]  Robert Adams: it will be worse for people with slower network connections
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I mean if your willing to pay the price there is nothing wrong with going large
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: but there is definitely a toll
[11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker wich toll ? lol
[11:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: A single user wouldn't but if you had say 6 or 8 users, it becomes more an issue
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: got to pay the terrain trolls
[11:52]  Hiro Protagonist: the right click problem is the only problem I have had witrh them
[11:52]  BlueWall Slade: pay the toll & don't be a troll
[11:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: I only had to do 3-4 clicks per second to hit the lag on my attempt
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: when I build and script I probably right click maybe once every several minutes
[11:53]  BlueWall Slade: you right click the terrain?
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: your mileage will vary
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: not everyone works the same way
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: when I build I can right click prims a lot but you are talking about terrain?
[11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker welll, good infop about the var to think about
[11:53]  OtakuMegane Desu: Right click terrain or objects
[11:53]  Robert Adams: slower connections and large varregions it is hard to edit -- the right click ot get the menu (parcel info), select object (parcel info), move (doesn't move) ....
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: it does this when you right click prims too
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dadix
[11:53]  Ken Savage: I ended up building on normal sims, then taking it to the var.
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: when you right click *anything*
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: I may right click the terrain or objects to bring up the menu
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: same here Ken
[11:53]  BlueWall Slade: I havent' really seen it.
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: that is odd for sure
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont seem to have the problem on my grid
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i do an insane amount of building in vars
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever have problems in vars
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: is building over the border
[11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: if you arent running vars >512m you probably would never notice
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: there is insane delays when building over borders
[11:54]  Robert Adams: the simulator is updating the parcel permissions in the viewer for edit and such
[11:54]  Ken Savage: Its more noticable on vars with lots of prims I think
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: sim edge borders
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: into a neighbor var
[11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker i have not seen it in 0.8.1 sofar
[11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: I have 1024s
[11:54]  OtakuMegane Desu: As a single user you probably won't see it unless you or the server is on a slow connection
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: omg it drives me nuts
[11:54]  BlueWall Slade: ahhh, ok
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: but if i stay inside of the region i am standing in, never a problem
[11:54]  BlueWall Slade: groups calls too, I guess?
[11:54]  Robert Adams: like I did for terrain updates (only sending close by patches and updates), I need to reduce the parcel info transmissions
[11:55]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim Dev        5b31bb9: 2015-03-16 23:48:16 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:55]  Ken Savage: It seems vars dont like to be close to other sims either. It makes them laggy
[11:55]  Robert Adams: saddly they are not patched -- it is one block for the whole region
[11:55]  Hiro Protagonist: that sounds like some good work waiting to happen Robert
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: didnt Freaktech submit a patch to help with terrain?
[11:55]  Richardus.Raymaker robert, the terrain is loading so much betetr in 0.8.1
[11:55]  Hiro Protagonist: if you get something to test, let me know
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: to make the terrain peices fit inside MTU or TTL or something?
[11:55]  BlueWall Slade: Robert, did you see the Freaky Tech terrain patch mods?
[11:55]  Hiro Protagonist: I dont think it's just terrain
[11:56]  Ken Savage: Yes, terrain loading speed seems great now.
[11:56]  Richardus.Raymaker uhh. if larghe var's domnt wrok i want more small one stogheter
[11:56]  Hiro Protagonist: there are other parcel bitmaps
[11:56]  Robert Adams: 8.1 only sends terrain patches within your view distance... and it keeps track of what was sent for each avatar in the region
[11:56]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, I noticed that. Nice idea :)
[11:56]  Richardus.Raymaker and that works good. now the same for prims
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that threw me when we upgraded Encitra grid
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: you can no longer see the terrain in the nieghbor vars
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you move very close to them
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was a bug initially heh
[11:57]  Shez Oyen: :/
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: I was so used to seeing 1000s of meters of terrain
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: now i only see like 768m
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: then it turns ot ocean
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: which is fine because we use Mesh terrain anyway
[11:57]  Robert Adams: I get flickering ocean on my system -- hate that
[11:57]  Jim Jackson: hey Sam
[11:58]  Samuel Greenway: Hi Jim
[11:58]  Robert Adams: I want to figure out how to fill all the regions in that are in the distance
[11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker oh robert, thats problem in sl to. uh,mm ctrl-shift-o i think solves it
[11:58]  Shez Oyen: Robert Firestorm seems to be worse on the flickering ocean than Replex... that's why I use Replex (I like a long draw)
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: what does ctrl+shift+o do?
[11:58]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline
[11:59]  Ken Savage: Yea, overall Sing or Replex behaves a lot better than FS.
[11:59]  Robert Adams: I want to build a single mesh representation of a populated region and then use those for distant views
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: yea i only use Replex lately
[11:59]  OtakuMegane Desu: I tried FS recentllly while testing the var region tp issue. Horrible performance. :D Sticking to Singularity for now
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker only shame the use V1 menu style. and that start to bug me
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker nothing is where it need to be
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: thats one of the reasons i like replex v1 style menus
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: the v3 menus are terrible
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: everythings hidden
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker webpage say - ctrl-shift-o = Rendering > Object-Object Occlusion
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ok thanks
[12:00]  Robert Adams: if I could get transparent dialogs to work in Singularity I'd be happy
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: I use Replex mainly for the skin
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: yea same Dahlia
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: definitely the best skin in town
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:01]  BlueWall Slade: control keys dont' work right in Sng if you press shift with multiple keys
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: its not hard to move that skin to singularity though
[12:01]  BlueWall Slade: Fwd + Shft+ Right
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I have really bad vision and the skin in singu doesnt help me at all
[12:01]  Aine.Caoimhe ++
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker really need to install replex
[12:01]  Ken Savage: Yea, FS is even worse with the var tp issue for sure.
[12:01]  dadix forever: maybe it;s time to talk about voxel integration in opensim ? :)
[12:02]  BlueWall Slade: talk to the viewer peeps
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: heh voxels
[12:02]  Richardus.Raymaker this one right ?
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Richardus
[12:02]  Robert Adams: again a viewer problem... we do need an OS viewer
[12:02]  BlueWall Slade: ++1000
[12:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: The problem is getting enough people together to make it
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker Oh dahlia, about bad vision. one of the reason why i dont like SL2 it seems not on the priority list. and hifi am not sure.
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: voxel integration in opensim
[12:03]  dadix forever: yes a new viewer with voxel suport is the best idea
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker robert ++++++++++unlimited
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: unfortunately the viewer didnt like all those voxels :/
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not a huge fan of traditional boxy voxel
[12:03]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: seems like a step backwards to me
[12:04]  Richardus.Raymaker i think the boxy voxels is not the right way
[12:04]  BlueWall Slade: C64 Sim
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: it just looks so terrible to me
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i hate minecraft
[12:04]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: burns my eyesz
[12:04]  OtakuMegane Desu: The Minecraft way XD
[12:04]  dadix forever: lol, voxel it's the future , what do you say ?
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:04]  OtakuMegane Desu: I love Minecraft but it's a block world, so the look works. Opensim is not a block world.
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: well i like voxels that interpolate and look smooth
[12:04]  Robert Adams: most of the voxel viewers (that don't do blocky but do heiarchical object representation) move all the display logic into the shaders... that's how they get the performance
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: but voxels represented as chunky ass non aliased boxes
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: looks like poo to me
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: voxels get a lot of hype but I still haven't seen the killer voxel app yet
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: cept maybe minecraft
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker Neb, craft some ace to shape the voxel
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker ace = axe
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: there was one app i saw that was not really voxels but worked like voxels
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: that totally blew my mind
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i forget what its called now
[12:05]  dadix forever: there are so many nebadon . just search on youtube
[12:06]  Robert Adams: and the voxel model lends itself to procedural generation which is all the rage at the moment
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: the problem with voxels is they are very difficult to render, and SL-like content is already very difficult to render
[12:06]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: mixing them would kill a GPU
[12:07]  Ken Savage: But if it doesn't look more realistic, its not a valid option.
[12:07]  Richardus.Raymaker But, what you want with voxels if you still dont have some real opensim viewer
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: here
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi:
[12:07]  Robert Adams: and the heiarchical representation enables infinite view and such... whole worlds
[12:07]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Minecraft you'd think is easy, you'r just rendering cubes but it's not an especially lightweight thing
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: Atomontage Engine
[12:07]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty insane
[12:07]  dadix forever: voxel system is the most realistic system
[12:07]  dadix forever: look at voxel farm and teravoxel
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: rendering a zillion cubes is NOT easy
[12:07]  dadix forever: oun youtube
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I agree its cool
[12:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: Nop.e BUt most people think it is lol
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but I have not seen anyone do a Complete virtual world
[12:08]  BlueWall Slade: are they real time multi-user?
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: transimitting that data in realtime to 100s of users is not easy
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: no ones done it yet
[12:08]  BlueWall Slade: they may render like blender moves?
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: other than terrible looking minecraft
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:09]  OtakuMegane Desu: Minecraft can look pretty damn good, especially with shaders
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its still cubetastic though
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: just nice shaders
[12:09]  Robert Adams: and it is how hollywood is representing space... check out OpenVDB which is a Dreamworks project for storing rendering spaces
[12:09]  Richardus.Raymaker the only thing with voxels. if its small scaled. it could be a new way to create mesh objects. build it with voxels convert it into mesh
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that is cool too Robert
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its one thing to make cool Voxel demos
[12:10]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well if ya don't like cubes then yeah, you'll never be happy with MC. :)
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its another to make a complete Massively Online world with one
[12:10]  Aine.Caoimhe and transmit it real time
[12:10]  Dahlia Trimble: ya a cool looking demo doesnt mean a practical application
[12:10]  Richardus.Raymaker Minecraft is sometimes fun. it's simpel. so it reset the mind :P
[12:10]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[12:10]  Robert Adams: HiFI uses a hiearchical data structure to store its meshes and objects.... rather than 'fetch the contents of a region' it is 'fetch the objects in this space'
[12:11]  Dahlia Trimble: usually a lot of smoke and mirrors in those cool looking demos
[12:11]  OtakuMegane Desu:
[12:11]  Ubit Umarov is Online
[12:11]  BlueWall Slade: I made a 3d movie in the '90s, but it took a weekend on several machines to render it :)
[12:11]  Hiro Protagonist: hahah same here Blue
[12:11]  Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:11]  Hiro Protagonist: lets try this with replex
[12:11]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I remember rendering stuff back then
[12:12]  Dahlia Trimble: I have a 3ds max scene that takes 45 minutes per frame to render :D
[12:12]  dadix forever: please look at this clip about voxels in games :
[12:12]  BlueWall Slade: :)
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone ever use Autodesk Animator in DOS
[12:12]  Aine.Caoimhe try doing really good cloth simulations if you really want long rendering times....
[12:12]  dadix forever: when you will have some time
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: that program is what single handidly got me interested in Computer graphics
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: awesome program
[12:13]  BlueWall Slade: that might be what I used - it was Autocad with some architectural packages
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi:
[12:14]  Aine.Caoimhe making stuff for Morrowind and Oblivion is what got me hooked
[12:14]  Hiro Protagonist: I used cinema4d+aftereffects (on a g4 powermac :D)
[12:14]  Lance Fang is Online
[12:14]  Ubit Umarov is Offline
[12:14]  Robert Adams: I've gotta run.... if anyone would like to talk about making an OS renderer, send me email
[12:14]  Robert Adams: I'd like to explore that impossible problem
[12:14]  Hiro Protagonist: :O
[12:14]  Nicklas Hansome: hello guys how are you
[12:14]  Hiro Protagonist: tc Robert
[12:14]  Aine.Caoimhe bye Robert
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia has some good starts :)
[12:15]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bye
[12:15]  Dahlia Trimble: ya I guess I go too, bye all :)
[12:15]  Richardus.Raymaker bye robnert
[12:15]  Shez Oyen: BB Robert
[12:15]  Hiro Protagonist: thanks man!
[12:15]  ladyjo martin is Online
[12:15]  Aine.Caoimhe and actually I need to run too...have a great week everyone
[12:15]  Ubit Umarov is Online
[12:15]  Robert Adams is Offline
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks everyone, same time next week :)
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