Chat log from the meeting on 2014-12-02

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[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
 
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
 
[11:04]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin
 
[11:04]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin
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[12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If we had a part burn, we would sit and watch them
 
[12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If we had a part burn, we would sit and watch them
 
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[[Category:Office Hour Logs]]

Latest revision as of 14:41, 25 October 2015

[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:04]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: my ISP was doing major work somewhere between me and their main stuff
[11:04]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Kayaker, Justin
[11:04]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Justin :)
[11:05]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: Changed_region events do not happen very often when you cross border between two regions on the same standalone or instance
[11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so for about a day I was getting 10-15% packet loss
[11:05]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ouch
[11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: during that time, when I selected anything that had some inventory in it, if any of the inventory items failed to fetch it would say "loading inventory" forever
[11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi justin
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hey sorry everyone i had to step away a moment unexpected, back now though
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so it's a non-bug in the sense that it was my ISP dropping crap-loads of packets
[11:06]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi nebadon
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: our Cub Cadet lawn mower being repiared
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but a bug in the sense of "should that really hang forever if a packet gets lost?"
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: and of course they ring door bell at exactly 2pm
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: figures
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still a big aine because it seems opensim dont recover from packet loss
[11:06]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :)
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin did you get divas email?
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I don't even know how to report that in Mantis :p
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, I will need to look in to that
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: reliable packets (I don't know if task inventory are such) are resent a number of times
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I guess in theory it will eventually get them all to me?
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: what happens - you teleport into a var region and neighbouring var regions do not appear?
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (the next time the ISP does that to me)
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: right, or even direct login
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: if it fails 3 times then it's droped permanently
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ah
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: once you teleport to the regions they become visible
[11:08]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: That sounds like what was hapening with OSG and some
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: but the rest of the var region appears just fine?
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: the neighbors that is
[11:08]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the inventory hanging
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: the var your in is visible yes
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but all the nieghbors are not
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...any way to have that send a "failed to fetch inventory" message to the viewer?
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: inventory is over http which is a different process
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: ok
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (or error message to console)
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: there is not
[11:09]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: do you have load terrain in view distance on?
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: but that shouldn't be permanent, if you switched to ad ifferent prim and then back it should redeliver the data
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: these are var regions running in different opensim processes on the same machine?
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: of course when that was happening I rather urgently needed to fetch the inventory of a dance ball with 300 animations in it
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin correct 1 var per simulator
[11:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so any time it fails it has to start all over again
[11:10]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: I have seen other var regions not showing up at all until you have a veiw distance that is bigger then the var region, then the neighbors always apear
[11:10]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: I missed Neb's problem.. I have 2 768 vars in an instance and can see both from either and edit them both from either.. but crossing on a boat kills the whole thing.
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: in this particular instance its 4 768x768 in a 2x2
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: once you visit all 4 then everything stays visible
[11:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and at the 10-15% packet lost I was getting that means anything more than 25-30 items in contents is basically a guaranteed fail
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: shez: neb says latested head that isn't happening, withvar regions in two different processes
[11:10]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ok
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: I believe task inventory delivery might be weak but I've never looked into whether that's an opensim issue or a general sl protocol issue
[11:11]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: so it is like you are not becoming a child in thoughs other regions unless your view distance when you teleport in or login is big enought to need to see them
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont know if we were running 100% against mster
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but we were close last couple days
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: has something changed that would have addressed that?
[11:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was wondering if that same issue could in any way be related to the initial "hang forever" inventory fetch bug on login
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i can say that when we reverted the code
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: it was fine again
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: with a large inventory if even 1 item got lost....
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: what woudl be helpful of course, is if you could identiy the actual revision it stops working
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: thats very difficult
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: no, the mechanisms are entirely different
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: this is an active project
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant bisect the simulator
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: why aren't you trying this stuff on a testinstance first?
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure maybe diva has some input there
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: well when we found out the project was just setting up
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: we found the problem within a few minutes of starting to setup the new model
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: but now we are into it
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant bring it down
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: we do have an area that can be tested
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: but diva has to do it
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: but you could setup an entirely difference instance and help me :)
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its her dev zone
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I expect I'll have to do it myself anyway
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see what she thinks
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont have anything i can easily bisect it on right now
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: id have to replicate the enviornment
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's very likely going to be a fundamental issue with no relation to actual content
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i am not sure its probably going to require some input from diva
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'm either going to replicate it or not before then
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: it not then I will need further input, of course
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: �18�<��27diva�>�� 2x2 varregions with very large draw distance
�18�<��27diva�>�� tell him to set up a 1x2 varregion side to side
�18�<��27diva�>�� and set the server-side draw distance to 1024
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: bah
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: frigan irc
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: <diva> 2x2 varregions with very large draw distance
<diva> tell him to set up a 1x2 varregion side to side
<diva> and set the server-side draw distance to 1024
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: so are these 2z2 regions or 1x2?
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ours is a 2x2
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: but i think she is suggsting it should fail the same with 1x2
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it fails on 2x2 then that's the one to try replicating
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if I beg and plead very nicely could some kind-hearted dev have a look into fixing the broken ability to stop the default animations? The Mantis I made for it (http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7357) identifies a fairly narrow window when the bug was introduced...it's a pretty big issue being unable to stop them.
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: so what is the orientation? lhorizontal or vertical?
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: I plan to look at this regression
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: its a 2x2 shouldnt matter
[11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: great :)
[11:20]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: none of the neighbors are visible in any direction
[11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 will back e-cookies
[11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *bake
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so you have 4 neighbours?
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: 34
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: 12
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: like that
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright
[11:21]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: hello dahlia :)
[11:21]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Aine, what does Firefox have to do with OpenSimulator and viewer programs?
[11:21]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh right, so you're saying it's a 2x2 arrangement or 768x768 regions
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: for some reason I was thinking 2x2 = 512x512. Alright
[11:21]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Dahlia :)
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: its a 2x2 arangement of 768x768 vars
[11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: maby its firestorm ? easy to ix both
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia
[11:22]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, yea, that would make more sense.
[11:22]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lol...yeah...Firestorm
[11:24]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: did I crash?
[11:24]  Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: everyone just quiet?
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: quiet lol
[11:24]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ::blink::
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i was filling diva in on IRC lol
[11:25]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess so...there was a big chat lag spike when Dahlia arrived so I thought maybe I'd been ejected
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: oh didnt notice any lag
[11:25]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Noticed when I arrived, some visitors already here listed by their UUID. After around 5 minutes their names appeared. 
Seen this when visiting other grids, anyone else seen this?
[11:25]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: not me! not my fault!
[11:25]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 blames Justin...
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Billy i have not personally seen that, don't think ive heard anyone else report it either
[11:25]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: billy, i see that here aswell some times, no where else tho
[11:26]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Has anyone experienced entries going missing from the UserAccounts table?
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Andrew definitely not
[11:26]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've had it happen to two different avatar accounts.
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: however i have seen on many occasions people forget the name they use
[11:26]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It is rare.
[11:26]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @BIlly I've experienced that on occasion in busier regions
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: swear up and down they used this name
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: then they give me their email address and its to a different name completely
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: opensim has no mechanism for deleting things from useraccounts
[11:26]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, yea I've seen that too.
[11:27]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: seems to happen a lot at Close Encounter but I thought perhaps it was an Ariba bug
[11:27]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Long ago I saw OpenSim WMI eat user acounts
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: that could be indicitive of mysql injection from website
[11:27]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: All other data seems to still exist for the avatar but just no entry in UserAccounts.
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: it seems unlikely that could be done via opensimulator directly
[11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I would say a mis-behaving Web UI would be suspect.
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: OpenSim WMI had something that would remove temp accounts if they did not confirm their email ...
[11:28]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: a case of little billy tables
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Divas Wifi has that too
[11:28]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: To delete just asingle entry requires a very specific SQL command. Seems a bit unlikely it would happen via SQL injection.
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: but the accounts are in a temp table
[11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If they wer in ther ew/o an email addres or something like that, it would take it.
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: not in main table
[11:29]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Anie, thanks I will take more note of timings in future
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: Andrew i would say check logs
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: to make sure that the account actually existed
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: if it did there would be traces in logs
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: more than likely the customer is wrong
[11:30]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: The account exists. I confirm the name/uuid by checking for entries in the inventory tables and the profile tables.
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: it happens a lot on osgrid
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: people swear they have an account
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: sometimes they have wrong account, sometimes they have nothing that traces back to them
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: yet they swear they were in 3 months ago
[11:31]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It gets reported when someone can't log in to their account. Then a friend of theirs is reporting "user unknown" showing instead of the avatar name.
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: that isnt good
[11:31]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: gack... rl is calling. bbiab.
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not seen that happen
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: could be a bug in the webUI
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: reusing uuids or something i dunno
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: i just cant imagine thats happening because of opensimulator itself
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: there is no code in core opensim that deletes useraccounts entries
[11:32]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Yes, we never even reccomend to delete the UserAccount
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya or even overwrite an old account
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: seems very unlikely
[11:33]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I vote Web UI
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if i had to guess that would be the first place i was looking for sure
[11:33]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: delete account = blindly change password to some random 32-character string and don't make a note of it :p
[11:33]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I had to rebuild a few by hand before.
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: Never tried, somewhat interesting to hear things start to show up as Unknown User - it is what I would expect
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I recall at one point osgrid website had a bug
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: where you could reuse name and that caused some chaos for a bit
[11:34]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: was able to on one grid competely lock out myself from an account by making another account with exact same name and password
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: thats bad for sure
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: osgrid had that bug accidently pop up at one point
[11:35]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm surprised that's possible
[11:35]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: back
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: it is if you write your own UI and you make a mistake or dont do checks
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: its not possible via opensimulator itself
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: this is why touching db tables directly is bad
[11:36]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: no unique index on full name?
[11:36]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that's only one reason too :)
[11:36]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, no, it isn't good. It has happened on two occasions to the same user. Now it has happened to someone else. It is very puzzling.
[11:36]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: sanitize thoughs database inputs :)
[11:37]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: touching tables is bad but everyone does it
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: true
[11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: in some cases you have to....when appearance gets borked, for instance
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi has a Table Touchers anonymous meeting later today :(
[11:37]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :D
[11:37]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Someone in our group was pondering on creating an addon module for database maintenance, any thoughts. I was concerned about liability should things go wrong
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: in the long term, I would like to have service calls that allow you to do everything required without touching tables directly
[11:38]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: nebadon, :)
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: depends on what kind of maintenance you mean
[11:38]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, that would be good.
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: if you mean clean up assets and inventory, i would say horrible idea
[11:38]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We do our own migrations
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have documented a lot of calls from http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services but it's a big task. And they can be rough and ready as they were delieved originally for internal use only
[11:39]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It's pretty simple to create a backup cron job
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: developed
[11:39]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: So, other than doing 'clean up' work what is left?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: you dont ever want to deleted any assets or inventory unless you have advised a very simple way to put the stuff back
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: once it inevitably blows up in your face
[11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think remove inventory you can only do with some script that removes it from the main DB and saves it in new one. so it canbe restored
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: asset embedding runs deep, you cant just do a simple database sweep for uuids and be safe
[11:41]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: One call that would be very useful is one to remove all all wearable data for an avatar when they get stuck as a cloud due to some badkitem they are wearing.
[11:41]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I have done' that before for some DCMA type things.
[11:41]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I worked all day on scripts to make sure I didnt' blow up everything.
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: Andrew you should be able to erase everything in Worn Items folder
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: and acheive that
[11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nope
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: from the viewer itself
[11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you actually have to go into the database sometimes and wipe it
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: its been a long time since ive had to do that
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that culd be done with calls to SetAvatar in the avatar service but the operation is not yet documented http://opensimulator.org/wiki/AvatarService
[11:42]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, doesn't help if it is skin or shape.
[11:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: OSG had a handy web thing to do that when you were logged into your account (along with emptying trash)
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm it should though
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: Current Outfit folder i mean
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: those are just links
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: and if you erase them it should remove it
[11:43]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it refused to remove something from me
[11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Sometimes, I think you need to wear other base body parts.
[11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: You can't just remove those.
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm ok ya maybe some wierd bug where things get into some kind of stuck state
[11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Skin, shape, etc.
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ya possible
[11:43]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Some items have been hard to remove. ie. bald cap.
[11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: delete the ones you can, then wear another set of those.
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: very hard to recreate those situations
[11:43]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Good point the services interface. Makes note, RTFM
[11:43]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and also removing physics is close to impossible.....you need a professional exorcist from the Vatican to detach those
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid we had a link on our website
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: that would purge all attached items for your avatar
[11:44]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes...that's a handy one
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: There is a reset avatar call on IAvatarService which appears to blow everything away
[11:45]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It deleted the items and replaced them with the basic avatar?
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: nope
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: it just deleted BlueWall next login you were a cloud
[11:45]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is still almost always essential to wipe the database data by hand if you make the mistake of HG-tping to a region running code where attachments don't arrive with you
[11:45]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but you could attach stuff again
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: funnily enough not used by opensim itself internally and first time I'[ve come across it
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but for a while now i never had to use that
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: for a long while now ive always been able to fix myself just by deleting it from Current Outfit
[11:46]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: xbakes has also made that harder to do
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: i havnt had to do a complete avatar purge in couple years
[11:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the only time's ive needed it are after HG tp when attachments get borked
[11:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (which only happens on sims running old code)
[11:46]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think there for a while, we had some isues with the items whether they were from V1 days or V2+
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you tp to Lost World wearing a mesh avi you'd have to do it
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: also remember when you HG to old simulator
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: scripted objects would break, infixable
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: unfixable*
[11:47]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeps
[11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It would be nice if you get warning before
[11:47]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I really wish there was a way to know *before* tping that the region you're going to is running ancient code
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that would have required great forsight Richardus
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: really, I think ultimately this stuff has to be managed more by the viewer instead of reliying on the servers to co-operate
[11:48]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Different topic for a moment. If I HG TP back to the grid I came from am I back to being in the original grid as if I had logged in to it directly?
[11:48]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I believe so
[11:48]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, ok. I'll find out after this meeting.
[11:48]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: actually would just be nice if a few people would stop clinging to 0.7.5 and 0.7.6 and update their dam sims
[11:48]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Technically, you're still there
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: on each hg tp, there's a constant checking with your home grid for various things
[11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes aine. but the think 0.7.6 and older is betetr
[11:49]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ok. I generally don't use HG except for these meetings.
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I wrote up a bit more about the flow recently at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid_Protocol#Teleport_of_an_agent_into_a_foreign_grid
[11:50]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 thinks 0.8.2 should be designed to be completely incompatible with anything <0.8.0.3
[11:50]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, yes. I've heard some comments along that line of some things were better in 076 compared to 08
[11:50]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'm waiting for the next release so I can TP from a var to a regular region without crashing.
[11:50]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: anyone up for a quicky load test after this meeting? http://grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wrong plaza
[11:50]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It sounds hard, but in some way it would be nice to make old ones not working anymore. well at leasy with HG.
[11:51]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, I think that could be done as there is that HG protocol version setting(?) in the ini files.
[11:51]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Andrew, that should be covered by the Simulator Version limit?
[11:51]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We should do some protocol checks before alowing TP's I gues. And we might anyway.
[11:51]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there's a query that already happens about HG method...that could be told to only do a tp if it gets a query with format XXX
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's no explicit hg protocol version
[11:52]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: the varregion does some checks I think
[11:52]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Billy, that wouldn't help. Its the same code across all regions in the grid.
[11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes
[11:52]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Dahlia, I will be there
[11:52]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (the one that in console tells you that they should consider upgrading)
[11:52]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++Dahlia
[11:52]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ok. I may be thinking of that thing that was something like Simulator/1.1
[11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have seen it in the viewer to
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's a tp version thing
[11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but.... ?
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya the before 4069 and after 4096 bug version i assume
[11:53]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: justin, ok. I don't use HG. I thought there was discussions a while back about a version for the HG protocol.
[11:54]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Do we send the assets or agent first?
[11:54]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Some grids I am sure have custom configs. One I know where I can get there, but returning it crashes my viewer
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: agent goes first
[11:54]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hmm, I gues need the agent there first to attach assets to
[11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bugs go next :)
[11:54]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Its a pain having my main computer down. I can't do a lot of work, or testing, on OS stuff.
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's not hard for a grid to trap your session until relog
[11:54]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: returning from here crashes my viewer 90% of the time
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is another reason i believe ultimately this stuff has to be more in the control of the viewer, like web browsing
[11:55]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: its still not fixt andrew ? omg
[11:55]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: JC, that hapens in SL :)
[11:55]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, I was trying to determine if its MB or CPU that died. I got a replacement CPU and no joy so its likely MB, although someone suggested a power supply issue could have cause a problem but the supply is relatively new.
[11:56]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Andrew, those things are powered by smoke - if you ever let it out, it will not work again.
[11:56]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, replacing the MB means I might as well upgrade but that means trying to find a MB that can be used in my machine with the PCI slots I need and then new CPU and RAM then I'm looking at around $500 which is not an expense I want just before xmas.
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: gpu genie escaped
[11:57]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Blue, hehe, yeah. I work with Electronics. I know all about the magic smoke.
[11:57]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, thats the price.
[11:58]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Once, a trainer told use in a class to return EPROM - I asked if they needed to change the color of the smoke in them?
[11:58]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lol
[11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not sene much smoke, unly glowing power supply's after i tried what blow the fuse
[11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've built myself an ESR meter so I can test the caps on the MB.
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it would be nice if electronics smoke more. then its easy to see what broke :)
[11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: someone was testing the EBRS instruction (emit burnt resistor smell)
[11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, :D
[11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Quicky load test!!! :D (5 minutes) http://grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wrong plaza
[12:00]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Oh,I remember how to use the HG TP. Paste it in to the map
[12:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 finds that soaking the MB for an hour or two in warm salt water usually eliminates any questions about what it broken
[12:00]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: hehe
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i need todo other things so cannot come this time
[12:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It was fun watching people in the NCR R&D lab turning over loose boards and parts when they smelled smoke.
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, top of hour, thanks everyone. going to go to dahlia's address
[12:01]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: For 5 minutes I can head over there as long as I can get HG TP back to my starting grid.
[12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If we had a part burn, we would sit and watch them
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