Chat log from the meeting on 2014-10-28

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(Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word">[2014/10/28 11:00] BlueWall.Slade @g...")
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[2014/10/28 11:00]  BlueWall.Slade is Online
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word-wrap: break-word">[2014/10/28 11:00]  BlueWall.Slade is Online
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Mal.Burns is Online
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Mal.Burns is Online
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
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[2014/10/28 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: brb
[2014/10/28 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: brb
[[Category:Office Hour Logs]]

Latest revision as of 14:39, 25 October 2015

[2014/10/28 11:00]  BlueWall.Slade is Online
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Mal.Burns is Online
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[2014/10/28 11:00]  Connected
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Teleport completed from https://opensimcc/region/Developer%20Track/134/125/26
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Connected
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Aine.Caoimhe on top of a 3-0month untested core
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: the only reason ghosts exists is because we are doing experimental things that probably shouldnt be going directly into core without a bit of testing first
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Connected
[2014/10/28 11:01]  Aine.Caoimhe so when it actually hits a grid level use there's going to be reams of bugs to fix
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ok well nothing i can do about that
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe and little interest in doing it since it's so "old"
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i only have so many hours in the day
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe nods
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine complaining yet again eh?
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe yes Justin
[2014/10/28 11:02]  BlueWall.Slade haha
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: and honestly even my paying work for opensimulator isnt really enough for me to live on for much longer
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: im working on changing that, but I can only do so much
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe yeah, and RL has to come first
[2014/10/28 11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: far to much responsibility has been put on me personally
[2014/10/28 11:03]  BlueWall.Slade socialism doesn't work too good, except for the consumers (then only for a while)
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: for years I was the only person keeping OSgrid alive
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I just cant do it anymore, or else im going to be living in a card board box on under a bridge
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe at this point I wonder if it mightn't be prudent for the dev group to approach one of the other existing grids to take over as the test grid
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Joe Radik: down by the river?
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Kayaker.Magic Good connectivity in that box?
[2014/10/28 11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: who?
[2014/10/28 11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's up to them to approach the devs, not the other way around
[2014/10/28 11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe no idea
[2014/10/28 11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: none of the Developers have the time eaither
[2014/10/28 11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: if someone wanted to they would have stepped up
[2014/10/28 11:04]  BlueWall.Slade I wouldn't want to have an outside party be the "oficial" test grid.
[2014/10/28 11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: no one has even shown the slightest glint of interest
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think anyone has the slightest iota of what it takes to keep osgrid running
[2014/10/28 11:05]  BlueWall.Slade If anything, a revived OSGrid should be it, with more developer input.
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and how stressful and unrewarding it actually is
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe I can imagine
[2014/10/28 11:05]  BlueWall.Slade ++
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ive gone days without sleep because i was so stressed out about keeping the grid up
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe would it not be a lot easier to to wipe and start from blank at this point?
[2014/10/28 11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: not for me its not
[2014/10/28 11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its not up to me anymore
[2014/10/28 11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: im not even on the OSgrid board
[2014/10/28 11:06]  BlueWall.Slade Yes, sometimes when things ran bad, you would be literally chained to the keyboard to keep things running
[2014/10/28 11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: im just an admin / consultant at this point
[2014/10/28 11:06]  Seth.Nygard I've always said that no good deed goes unpunished
[2014/10/28 11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe oh, my apologies, I was under the impression you were
[2014/10/28 11:07]  BlueWall.Slade How did the Saturday test go? I was out of town.
[2014/10/28 11:07]  Mal.Burns is Online
[2014/10/28 11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: it went well
[2014/10/28 11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe it went very smoothly overall
[2014/10/28 11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: there was no sunday test as such, just people doing some training
[2014/10/28 11:08]  BlueWall.Slade will the Vivox voice be used?
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @Bluewall....could you elaborate a little on your commit from yesterday....what did it change about HG tps?
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: not at the presentations no
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: free vivox cant handle that many users
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: it will be on at the Expo Zones though and Landing Zones
[2014/10/28 11:08]  BlueWall.Slade The core developer talks?
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but not at Track and Keynotes
[2014/10/28 11:08]  BlueWall.Slade ok
[2014/10/28 11:08]  BlueWall.Slade what will be used on those?
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: all the track presentations and keynotes are done via skype
[2014/10/28 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: we have a skype PBX switchboard
[2014/10/28 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: that everyone connects through, and then that gets streamed to Shoutcast
[2014/10/28 11:09]  BlueWall.Slade ok, I'll see if I can get skype on this box.
[2014/10/28 11:09]  BlueWall.Slade I think it doesnt' run
[2014/10/28 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: what about your smartphone?
[2014/10/28 11:09]  BlueWall.Slade have you been able to get it on OpenSUSE 13.1?
[2014/10/28 11:09]  BlueWall.Slade ahh, ok
[2014/10/28 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: worst case you could connect via smart phone skype
[2014/10/28 11:09]  BlueWall.Slade Aine, it alows teleports by profile picks
[2014/10/28 11:10]  BlueWall.Slade If you have a pick in your profile, I should be able to click on "teleport" and go to the place.
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Joe Radik: Cool!
[2014/10/28 11:11]  BlueWall.Slade It works across Hg, just like in a closed grid
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: we should probably pull that into ghosts justin at some point
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Joe Radik: Will that make it into the code used for OSCC?
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, too close to conf
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin is the plan to continute to run ghosts for the actual event?
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[2014/10/28 11:11]  Aine.Caoimhe ah I see what you mean
[2014/10/28 11:11]  BlueWall.Slade It may have bugs - not big ones, but ther may be some refinement needed ..
[2014/10/28 11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ok, ya better to hold off then for sure
[2014/10/28 11:12]  BlueWall.Slade Like, I have no way to set a picks origination grid if it already exists.
[2014/10/28 11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe I ran into another one of those "unable to verify identiy" issues....this time from a linux standalone HG on 9000 to my standalone HG on .NET on 9100
[2014/10/28 11:13]  BlueWall.Slade That is probably beecause you have a user wiuth the same uid?
[2014/10/28 11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe don't think so...both are small grids
[2014/10/28 11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm those usaully mean that the viewer and the grid are getting conflicting IP/FQDN info
[2014/10/28 11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe the other user's UUID is completely different
[2014/10/28 11:13]  Arielle.Popstar even the same name can create probs in some cases
[2014/10/28 11:13]  BlueWall.Slade I see that if I have BlueWall Slade with same uuid on each side
[2014/10/28 11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe when they changed their grid to run on 9100 it all worked perfectly
[2014/10/28 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it might do it then too
[2014/10/28 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: but it will also fail if the FQDN the grid receives doesnt match the IP address the viewer is giving it
[2014/10/28 11:14]  BlueWall.Slade I logged into OSG via Hg as Nebadon once to test it before that security hole was closed :)
[2014/10/28 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2014/10/28 11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe if it were a case of conflict wouldn't it have also failed after they changed to 9100 though?
[2014/10/28 11:15]  BlueWall.Slade yes
[2014/10/28 11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker sounds like you have not mucluck aine
[2014/10/28 11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe it didn't....they got there easily this morning
[2014/10/28 11:15]  BlueWall.Slade so, some other reason triggered it
[2014/10/28 11:16]  Arielle.Popstar isn't there a setting about allowing same name in the same grid?
[2014/10/28 11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe it's the same thing Neb and I ran into last weekend
[2014/10/28 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: thats very likely a misconfiguration on the visitors end or the grid they are coming from
[2014/10/28 11:16]  BlueWall.Slade some routing issues?
[2014/10/28 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: not on your end
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of the time what happens is people have in their internal network
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the FDQN pointing to a lan address
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Aine.Caoimhe well, that means you're misconfigured :p
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: and exteranlly it points to their real internet address
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: this will cause HG to fail with similar message
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Arielle.Popstar dd-wrt firmware is a problem with some HG setups
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the Loopback hack
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: will cause this problem too
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Aine.Caoimhe ah yeah
[2014/10/28 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: Loopback hack breaks HG most of the time
[2014/10/28 11:18]  BlueWall.Slade ++
[2014/10/28 11:18]  Aine.Caoimhe though supposedly mine is the first time she's encountered this
[2014/10/28 11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its impossible to really say what the exact cause is without being able to probe things deeper
[2014/10/28 11:18]  Aine.Caoimhe and again, if it were something like that, it shouldn't resolve itself when she changed her own grid to 9100
[2014/10/28 11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker dd-wrt worked never for me. could not reach my server
[2014/10/28 11:18]  Marcus.Llewellyn dd-wrt doesn't have loopback by default.
[2014/10/28 11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker tomato worked better.
[2014/10/28 11:19]  Seth.Nygard I have seen the same problem trying to do to 2 other grids, but have zero issues going to numerous oither grids
[2014/10/28 11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker Marcus, enabled that but it failed to. long time ago maby messed with other settings to
[2014/10/28 11:19]  Arielle.Popstar well it does on the one i used but it is how it reports the ip
[2014/10/28 11:19]  Marcus.Llewellyn Apparently they feel that enabling loopback disrupts some bridged configurations, and that's not acceptable. Cuz we're all bridging like mad, I guess.
[2014/10/28 11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe the one thing I guess we never tested when Neb and I spent that Sunday afternoon looking at this was me leaving my grid at 10000 and him changing his home grid to a different port
[2014/10/28 11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe never thought of trying that
[2014/10/28 11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe but Neb's is a robust setup iirc
[2014/10/28 11:20]  BlueWall.Slade that shouldn't matter
[2014/10/28 11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe I wouldn't have thought so
[2014/10/28 11:20]  BlueWall.Slade not on the opensim level
[2014/10/28 11:21]  BlueWall.Slade could it be the way port-forwarding is setup?
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: for some reason opensimulator breaks for me on port 10000
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Aine.Caoimhe anyway...just found it interesting
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: if someone else is running on port 10k i cant connect
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: and if i run it on port 10k no one can connect to me
[2014/10/28 11:21]  BlueWall.Slade ahh
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant explain why
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: comcast doesnt block 10k
[2014/10/28 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: my router shouldnt either, even my old d-link DGL-4300 did same thing
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: and whats stranger
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: i can load her URI in firefox
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Aine.Caoimhe the initial connection and TP was starting to happen too
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: and i get the Knomes message
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: even on port 10k
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Arielle.Popstar but Neb, is it only recently ?
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: years
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: i think i first noticed it about 2 years ago
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: i had a 4 corner region setup on osgrid
[2014/10/28 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: using ports 10000,10001,10002,10003
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i could see 10001,10002,10003
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: but not the region on 10000
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe I vaguely remember having trouble with it a couple years ago too when I had my HG on 9000
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe and there were a few grids I couldn't get to
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: took me forever to figure it out eventually i got frustrated and changed ports to 11000
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: and then it just started working
[2014/10/28 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: very odd indeed
[2014/10/28 11:23]  BlueWall.Slade users 10000
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: y
[2014/10/28 11:24]  BlueWall.Slade uses.
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Aine.Caoimhe and when Neb tried to come to me when I was on 10000 it failed, yet as soon as I moved to 9100 it worked perfectly
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: im thinking that Comcast might be using NDMP
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and that it somehow responds to 10k traffic
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and some how mangles it
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: unintentionally
[2014/10/28 11:24]  BlueWall.Slade that might be
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Marcus.Llewellyn Just shooting in the dark here, but is 10000 a problem for you on both Windows and Linux?
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: well my server was always linux
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and viewer mostly on windows
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: even if i connect to Aines server which i think is windows
[2014/10/28 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and my client is windows
[2014/10/28 11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: it still fails
[2014/10/28 11:25]  Aine.Caoimhe yes, mine is .NET on Win7
[2014/10/28 11:25]  Marcus.Llewellyn nods amiably.
[2014/10/28 11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker Aine, did you have set the port manual in firewall for inbound and outbound ?
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its definitely not that
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: others can connect fine
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its just me
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Aine.Caoimhe yes, all ports are set correctly
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Aine.Caoimhe (manually)
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: if anything its a problem on my sidwe
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: but im certain its not the router
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Aine.Caoimhe and I've had probably 50 other unique users visit me without issue at all
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: if i just go into my router and modify the forward rule from 10000 to 11000 and change opensim to 11000 it just starts working
[2014/10/28 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: on 2 different routers
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: one was running stock D-Link rom
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: that router didnt even support wrt
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Marcus.Llewellyn I have the same firmware you do, and an ASUS router. I could try 10000 for giggles. Is that a sim http_listener?
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: in my case i think i had both set to 10000
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Alicia.Raven hi
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hellow Alicia
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello Alicia
[2014/10/28 11:27]  Aine.Caoimhe my setup is a very basic standalone HG with the TCP on 10000 and the regions on 10000-10010
[2014/10/28 11:28]  Marcus.Llewellyn I can't try it right this moment, but will try to do it later and see what happens.
[2014/10/28 11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe Neb looked through my ini files and didn't see anything that looked wrong
[2014/10/28 11:29]  Arielle.Popstar there is a load test today?
[2014/10/28 11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: yes end of this meeting
[2014/10/28 11:29]  Aine.Caoimhe I guess a lot of the HG issues are just far more at the forefront of people's minds since there are so many displaced OSG people trying to come and go between their various refugee locations
[2014/10/28 11:29]  Arielle.Popstar kk, posted it on G+ but wasnt positive
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: yes
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Arielle.Popstar HG is getting a much better workout
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect that is the case
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Aine.Caoimhe would love it if some of those changes you've made to optimize it in the ghost branch made it to core...would help a lot of people
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Arielle.Popstar for long time was just me whining about it :)
[2014/10/28 11:30]  BlueWall.Slade that is god, we need to get things worked out in Hg so it can become the norm.
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Aine.Caoimhe many of the regions are buckling under the stress of onbound HG activity
[2014/10/28 11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: the ghost branch changes will go into core after the conference
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: for me HG has been awesome
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: especially here on OSCC
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: i am actually quite amazed at how little trouble we are having this year
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: compared to last year OSCC
[2014/10/28 11:31]  BlueWall.Slade yes, but many things still don't work, like the thing I did yesterday.
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: complete polar oposites
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Marcus.Llewellyn Now you've jinxed it. ;)
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Arielle.Popstar i find the quality of the grid one is going to has a lot to do with the speed
[2014/10/28 11:31]  Joe Radik echos Nebs comment on HG
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: yes but there is not much we can do about people having slow servers or internet
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Aine.Caoimhe @Arielle...I've been whining about it for two years....think that's why Justin has me on ignore :p
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are many bugs with hg
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Richardus.Raymaker im not suprissed if HG problems are in the standalone mode
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Arielle.Popstar if the grid/region is slower it can take forever, lost attachments and several attempts
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya dont get me wrong im definitely not saying HG is perfect
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: but its far better than a year ago
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Marcus.Llewellyn INventory is tons better over HG for sure.
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: heh
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Richardus.Raymaker oh thats for sure
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Aine.Caoimhe in fairness, it's working pretty well if/when you can get to your destination
[2014/10/28 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: a year ago i regretted even having HG enabled for OSCC
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: I wish I could fix all these thigs instantly but I only have so many hours available
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Arielle.Popstar thats was a quirk
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Arielle.Popstar last year
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Aine.Caoimhe it's just a major bump trying to get there
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Arielle.Popstar it worked fine till the day of the conference
[2014/10/28 11:33]  BlueWall.Slade sometimes the time needed to research and fix things is pretty large
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Marcus.Llewellyn YOu're ot personally reponsible Justin. We love ya. ;)
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: well we got lucky, last year the conference went on without very little trouble
[2014/10/28 11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont recall any HG problems the day of the event
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the problems we ran into was setting up the evnet
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: and people trying to bring in their content
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Arielle.Popstar well for a long time Diva was the only one dealing with HG
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe yes
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Marcus.Llewellyn She created it. Heh.
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Arielle.Popstar other dev's kne w little to nothing about it
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe and some changes ~2 years ago messed up a lot of stuff and didn't then get fixed since I think Diva was busy writing a book
[2014/10/28 11:34]  Arielle.Popstar nod
[2014/10/28 11:35]  Marcus.Llewellyn In the beginning it was just difficult to use. You needed a proxy to do it properly.
[2014/10/28 11:35]  Aine.Caoimhe most of those bugs are still there....or at least 90% of the ones I reported in March and April of 2013 are still broken
[2014/10/28 11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I wil lbe interested to hear what Diva has to say about HG at the conference
[2014/10/28 11:35]  Marcus.Llewellyn That's right, she's in the dev track
[2014/10/28 11:35]  Aine.Caoimhe it's a shame because as a "selling point" it's one of Opensim's greatest perks
[2014/10/28 11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: I agree HG needs improvement
[2014/10/28 11:36]  Aine.Caoimhe it's what makes Opensim more web-like
[2014/10/28 11:36]  Seth.Nygard without HG the outage at osgrid would be an even bigger problem for all its residents
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's the only way I can see this thing succeeding in the long term, compared to traditional virtual worlds
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Arielle.Popstar at this point the worst is the time that one cannot do anything else while in a jump that is taking too long
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: some of the prolbem is with the underlying architecture
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe yes....the viewer locks you out for at least 2 minutes
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: in an hg teleport you are dependent on the co-operation of both source and destination servers
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: unlike the web
[2014/10/28 11:37]  BlueWall.Slade A big isue with Hg was the teleport limit, but that is gone now.
[2014/10/28 11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe but the actual "fail" can take up to 10 minutes to finally register and let you try to tp again
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Arielle.Popstar agrees with Aine
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Arielle.Popstar well need to let stock opensimulator know :)
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Arielle.Popstar it is still set to limit to 4096
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Aine.Caoimhe I imagine a lot of that has to do with the viewers not being designed to be more proactive about HG handling
[2014/10/28 11:38]  BlueWall.Slade we might ned some mechanism to query the health of a target region on teleports
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Seth.Nygard often the first HG trip to a new simulator will fail, but subsequent ones are usually successful
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: that is not the case
[2014/10/28 11:38]  Aine.Caoimhe yes....too much data has to be sent in a very small window of time
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker whats the opensim viewer name. i forgot. some singularity clone i think ?
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Arielle.Popstar was as of last mionth yet
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: no
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Arielle.Popstar osgrid releases have it off
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: the viewer was never designed to accomidate HG
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Aine.Caoimhe if it doesn't get there in ~30 sec 1st attempt fails but takes a long time to do so
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Andrew.Hellershanks Richardus, there are several
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Aine.Caoimhe then 2nd attempt is usually instant
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: the only thing that was ever adjusted in the viewer to help HG was the distance thing
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Marcus.Llewellyn You may be thinking of Replex, Rich.
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: everything else is quite the hack
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: ultimately I think the viewer almost needs to incorporate a mini-hg grid
[2014/10/28 11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker thats the one marcus. some singularity dev is working on it righht. forgot the name
[2014/10/28 11:40]  BlueWall.Slade the distance thing happened even on closed grids
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that wasnt even a HG specific issue really
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Arielle.Popstar its instant cause all the assets been transferred by then
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: it just benefited HG the most
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Marcus.Llewellyn Latif is the creator of Replex.
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker yes, then thats the one i mean
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Aine.Caoimhe right the transfer must continue even after that timeout
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Arielle.Popstar prob was when Mel changed it so the jump doesnt happen till after everything else has transferred
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Marcus.Llewellyn My rather vague understanding of HG is that it puts a lot of effort into simply fooling the viewer into doing what it needs. The viewer sounds like a major obstacle in that case.
[2014/10/28 11:40]  Dahlia.Trimble is Online
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe if the "accept presence" part happened a lot earlier and then let everything else catch up, that would work much more smoothly
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Arielle.Popstar whereas before the avi would jump, the clothing would follow
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker Marcus, the viewer is obstacle for long time on many things
[2014/10/28 11:41]  BlueWall.Slade Hg just maps a foreign region into your grid space
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker as example. m,aptiles still fail in HG
[2014/10/28 11:41]  BlueWall.Slade you aren't really jumping to another grid
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker except here
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: heh yes, HG as it stands is a crazy viewer hack
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think that's a little overstating it :)
[2014/10/28 11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe and could also probably then be throttled more easily to allow it not to kill a region with an inbound HG tp
[2014/10/28 11:42]  BlueWall.Slade smke and mirrors :)
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: LL never intended for their grid to be larger than like 512x512 regions
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: buf defeinitely a case of fitting a system into an existing architecture with lots and lots of awkward bits
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: probably even smaller actually
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: you could technically fit the entire LL grid into a 256x256 map
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Richardus.Raymaker i dont know any LL sim thats bigger then 256x256
[2014/10/28 11:42]  BlueWall.Slade I'm a little disapointed that some viewer teams haven't leaned more toward OpenSim support.
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Dahlia.Trimble is Online
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: and still have about 30% of the space open
[2014/10/28 11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I suspect just not enough people
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: actually more
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: its more like 70% of the space open
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Dahlia.Trimble hi
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Marcus.Llewellyn We need an official viewer team. We really do. Not viewers with opensim support. We need an opensim viewer. There's a difference.
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Richardus.Raymaker hi
[2014/10/28 11:43]  BlueWall.Slade Hi Dahlia
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I occasionally toy with the idea of forking a viewer and concentrating on opensim stuff but just don't have the time/energy
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Arielle.Popstar probably have tyo wait till LL pulls the plug
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Alicia.Raven hi dahlia
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Richardus.Raymaker Replex ??
[2014/10/28 11:43]  BlueWall.Slade that is a fork of Singularity
[2014/10/28 11:43]  Aine.Caoimhe I think the closer LL appears to be to pulling the plug the more resources may get turned toward support of Opensim
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Arielle.Popstar Atra still alive?
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Arielle.Popstar Astra
[2014/10/28 11:44]  BlueWall.Slade I mean, they have some features, but they really focus on LL
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: I thin it is the case that lots of viewers keep up with LL dev
[2014/10/28 11:44]  BlueWall.Slade SL
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: if LL stops developing that provides a space for effort to be put elsewhere
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately most of the viewer devs are not ever touching the very core of the viewer code
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the viewer development that happens is UI related
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Aine.Caoimhe sure....understandably so since for most viewers 99% of their users are SL
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: very little of the core engine is changed by TPV teams
[2014/10/28 11:44]  Arielle.Popstar has Opensim ever given them reason to?
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: probably less than 1% of the TPV development has effected peformance or core viewer engine issues
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: reason to what?
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Marcus.Llewellyn They can't really. if they go to deep, they run a greater risk of LL pulling the rug out from under them in terms of ease with which they can merge.
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: perhaps
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Dahlia.Trimble I've been on several dedicated opensim viewer projects. They've all died a slow painful death due to lack of community and developer interest
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Arielle.Popstar to dig more into the core of it.
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: and how would one give them that?
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont think anyone can actually undestand that part of the code
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Marcus.Llewellyn I use every independent viewer I find.
[2014/10/28 11:45]  Arielle.Popstar or do we follow pretty much thew design parameters LL puts out
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: more than no one waants to or is allowed to
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Aine.Caoimhe we're more or less forced to follow LL since the viewers do
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Arielle.Popstar if we put out features that requires deeper code changes
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: there have been many questions ive asked to all the TPV teams, and pretty much the uninmous response is no one knows that code
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Marcus.Llewellyn The TPVs that understand the really deep stuff are definitely a minority, but they're out there.
[2014/10/28 11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: and why would one do that before viewer suppor?
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker curious if opensim need to change at some point the corse complete into different direct. but new tech is complete different. (but still opensource)
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Arielle.Popstar cause otherwise it is the tail wagging the dog
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: things as simple as making the Bounding Box handles easier to use on large prims
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: no one has the slightest clue how to do that
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: you are not realistic
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Dahlia.Trimble also the fundamental design of opensim is so catered to SL's unique business model and scenegraph model that deviating to another design isnt really feasible
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Arielle.Popstar i know but i can dream :)
[2014/10/28 11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker curious if you could merge opensim into high fidelity at some point
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: who knows
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Arielle.Popstar we have a few devs that are more familiar with viewers
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think opensim can change but it's a crooked and long path
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Andrew.Hellershanks what is high fidelity?
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: High Fideilty is maybe 5% done
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: your talking about years away
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: before High Fidelity has something people are using wide spread
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Marcus.Llewellyn I'm not certain a whole new design is being asked for. Just room to innovate. Being shackled to strict SL compatibility hold us back.
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker yes. but thats only direction to get a few things fixt at some point
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: getting involved in that now meanas constantly adjusting to their mistakes
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its not worth it
[2014/10/28 11:48]  Marcus.Llewellyn Right now, we have SL viewer that have OpenSim support, but don't promise complete OpenSim compatibility. We need it to be the other way around.
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes. Unfortunately manpower does not exist for it
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Aine.Caoimhe on a happy note, LL will soon cease to change anything about SL 1.0 so at least there will be a static core at that point
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Dahlia.Trimble I dont think you could deviate from compatibility without alienating all the existing users who prefer their current viewers
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Arielle.Popstar is there a date for that?
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: from what i understand thats not true Aine unless something changed
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker i think SL 1 still get c hanges for 1-2 years
[2014/10/28 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has said they will continue to support and develop SL
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Aine.Caoimhe yeah, something like that
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Richardus.Raymaker yes
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Dahlia.Trimble there's also a lot of unwillingness of viewer teams to deviate from what LL mandates
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Marcus.Llewellyn We need a viewer that sets the standard for other viewers, though. Right now we have a bit of an anarchy.
[2014/10/28 11:50]  BlueWall.Slade I se the features of the viewer as pretty cmplete for what i sneeded in-world.
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Aine.Caoimhe I suspect LL's support will extend for a while, including bugfix
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Marcus.Llewellyn We need to be able to say, "See this viewer? That's how it should be done."
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Aine.Caoimhe but I can't see them investing very much in development
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I think a major issue is making hg better
[2014/10/28 11:50]  BlueWall.Slade But, we should be able to ad nother features.
[2014/10/28 11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: growing the network is the only realistic route imo
[2014/10/28 11:50]  BlueWall.Slade + jcc
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Dahlia.Trimble agrees with justin (for once)
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Aine.Caoimhe ++
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: but a viewer where it was easy to disable certain things (e.g. inventory) would help some use cases, like education
[2014/10/28 11:51]  BlueWall.Slade lol Dahlia
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Richardus.Raymaker but writeing a new viewer is almost the same as writinbg new grid software. you need good people and it takes years. offcorse radegast is maby good base
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: heh, don't worry, I'll say something disagreeable in a second
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Aine.Caoimhe lol
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Arielle.Popstar lolws
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Andrew.Hellershanks hehe
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Seth.Nygard I certainly see HG as a key cornerstone feature that does need improvements
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, existing viweer is 1,000,000 LOC
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is twice the suze of OpenSimulator
[2014/10/28 11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: and 10 years of very expensive developemtn
[2014/10/28 11:52]  Andrew.Hellershanks eek
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Marcus.Llewellyn ping 11:52
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker i dont expect a special opensim viewer. its maby more easy top integrate with new systems in few years 5 ?
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker not see much text
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker -
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think HG improvements fall into two camps
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker ping
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker aha there we go
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: geeez
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker lag ? crash ?
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: Sarah Kline logging in just about killed the region
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Aine.Caoimhe eek....
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: lot of texture requests and mesh on console.....
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Sarah Kline: lolz
[2014/10/28 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: for some reason when Sarah logged in everything just about died
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Andrew.Hellershanks I didn't notice any lag
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Arielle.Popstar bad Sarah
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker Sarah, keep that invil home !. hi
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: i assume this region has not had those caps redirected?
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: Sarah must be earing 100 textures
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Arielle.Popstar froze for me
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Sarah Kline: you want me to log out?
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire grid does Justin
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Sarah Kline: its the hair
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Aine.Caoimhe that happens all the time on HG inbound
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire grid is configured identically
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Arielle.Popstar ate my unimportant text
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: not here, still serving GetMesh
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: console says so
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: huh
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: thats odd
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe i didnt fix this regions OpenSim.ini
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker chat where like old days complete lagged
[2014/10/28 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: guess i need to check all the regions for that
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: crazy that one person can kill the region like that
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: ultimately it would be good to have all regions load a common in ifile for some of this stuff, but that's a change more complicated than it should be
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Aine.Caoimhe yep
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Sarah Kline: I'm just mean
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: looks like Sarah is actually missing all her attachments too
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Andrew.Hellershanks Isn't that just a case of using the command line switches to point to a common INI?
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Arielle.Popstar grand entrance...every one goes silent
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Sarah Kline: I removed them
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, one would have to include a commopn in from within an existing config file
[2014/10/28 11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its not quite that simple
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: ini
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: I did that in another setup but it took some jiggery-=pokery
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Marcus.Llewellyn That was fun. :)
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: we have the Encitra grid setup that way too
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Andrew.Hellershanks Doesn't seem like something that should be difficult to implement.
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: and to be hoenst I hate it
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: to me its so much more confusing
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: i like to keep things seperated
[2014/10/28 11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: more confusing that changing 14 config files and making mistakes? :)
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: well no its definitely more work, but I dont really mind that
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Andrew.Hellershanks uses a program that generates the INI files from a database.
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: perhaps if i had 100s of regions to manage
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Sarah Kline: hahah theres my entrance
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: then id reconsider
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: thats really why we are doing it at Encitra
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Alicia.Raven i wrote a program to generate ini files aswell
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Dahlia.Trimble I make lots of config mistakes. I haven't (yet) configured 2 regions to use the same udp port tho :)
[2014/10/28 11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would do it just at 2
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: your laziness threshold is way too high
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Marcus.Llewellyn I just have a sorta master OpenSim.ini, and then baby OpenSim.inis for each instance.
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Aine.Caoimhe @Dahlia... lol
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[2014/10/28 11:58]  BlueWall.Slade I have a master OpenSim.ini and an instance OpenSim.ini
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker if you need to make new config, ther'e alwasy a few mistakes. also because you make first 1 set and copy that to other simulators and change the few linux like ports
[2014/10/28 11:58]  BlueWall.Slade and you can set a directory to
[2014/10/28 11:58]  Marcus.Llewellyn If I made the effort, could prolly reduce that more with environment variables.
[2014/10/28 11:58]  BlueWall.Slade inidirectory
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker need to say with compare its much betetr
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Marcus.Llewellyn +1 Blue
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks Marcus, I've also done that. The master INI's I set up are used to do an initial population of the data base that is used to generate the INIs for regions.
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Marcus.Llewellyn I love my new Jeff Kelly hat. :)
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ok I have 68 avatars logged in today Justin
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: 17 per region
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks Marcus, Master ini's that are close to the ones that ship with OS make it easy (or easier) to check for changes in the INI files from release to release.
[2014/10/28 11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: thats about my limit I think before i start breaking down
[2014/10/28 12:00]  Marcus.Llewellyn +1 Andrew
[2014/10/28 12:00]  BlueWall.Slade ok, have SkYpe runing here now
[2014/10/28 12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: nice BlueWall
[2014/10/28 12:00]  BlueWall.Slade had to add a 32 bit sqlite lib
[2014/10/28 12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: be sure to shoot fleep a message you can friend her "fleeptuque" is her skype name
[2014/10/28 12:00]  Aine.Caoimhe guess it's time to decamp to KN1
[2014/10/28 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I'm gong to hop over to the keynotes as it's time
[2014/10/28 12:01]  BlueWall.Slade ok
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ok ya Load test time eveyrone
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: see you there :)
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Andrew.Hellershanks How did the special grid test go on the weekend?
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: Keynote 1
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Marcus.Llewellyn zooom
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: went great Andrew
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Teleport completed from https://opensimcc/region/Staff%20Zone%201/139/59/85
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Connected
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Aine.Caoimhe very fast tp today
[2014/10/28 12:01]  Marcus.Llewellyn As good as last week for me.
[2014/10/28 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: actually< I need to connct on my other system
[2014/10/28 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: brb
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