Chat log from the meeting on 2014-06-17

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[10:59]  Hippo Finesmith: ewwwwwwwwwww
[10:59]  Shez Oyen: Didn't see the little plastic round thingie
[10:59]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[10:59]  Connected
[10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:00]  Hippo Finesmith: hi Justin
[11:00]  Shez Oyen: Hi Justin
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:01]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:01]  Sarah Kline: hi
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: nice 0.8 is out then i can install that on my new system
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah
[11:02]  Alicia Raven: hello :)
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, 0.8 is now out
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: and dev has already just moved on with Alicia's bullet patch ;)
[11:03]  Alicia Raven: will be nice to fly over the curb next to roads now lol
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: What do the bullet patches fix?
[11:03]  Alicia Raven: just a push up so u dont skim the floor when flying
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: actually, patch isn't in dev yet - just testing here I think, neb?
[11:03]  Alicia Raven: will push up over terrain aswell when flying into land
[11:04]  Hippo Finesmith: sounds good
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: so, any opensim issues to discuss today?
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: summer is coming on, people are going outside I think :)
[11:05]  Mata Hari: speaking which, walking in here today I had trouble walking over the round world carpet
[11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have a family member over today as they couldn't be here on Father's Day.
[11:05]  Mata Hari: and it's maybe 0.01m thick
[11:05]  Hippo Finesmith: i was wondering how hard it would be to implement a weather system in os or if its even feasable ?
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hi hippo
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing here really
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: hippo: weather system in what sense?
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: just a heads up I think Diva is going to pick up with Melanies merges where Misterblue left off
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hippo, A lot of weather systems are particle based. Lightening uses hidden textures that get momentarily seen.
[11:06]  Hippo Finesmith: as in make it rain without having to script something
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: so that is some good news
[11:06]  Hippo Finesmith: or snow for example
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: just use particles
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: things always have to be scriped in some sense. A region module might be easier for complex behaviour though
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be very difficult to incorporate something into the viewer
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: as none of us here are viewer devs really
[11:07]  Hippo Finesmith: yeah thinking about it , it would probably require a modified viewer
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, depends how sophisticated it needs to be
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: also its impossible to stop particles from penetrating prims
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: thats really the biggest obstacle to making a proper weather system
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of heavy work
[11:08]  Mata Hari shudders to think of all the alpha glitching it would cause too
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: really a shame yes
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: It would be interesting to have particles that were more physical and could be stopped by objects or bounce off them.
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: you can bounce them off of the terrain i think
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: just not prims
[11:09]  Mata Hari: a related thing that would be nice, though, is to be able to change windlight setting via script and have any viewer pick up that change
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, right
[11:09]  Hippo Finesmith: yes i agree
[11:09]  Mata Hari: currently that doesn't trigger an update on most viewers
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: could that just be an opensim bug?
[11:10]  Mata Hari: not sure
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: does it happen on the ll grid?
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: scripted windlight?
[11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, hm... they will bounce off the plane the emitter is in.
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no scripted windlight in SL
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: is there?
[11:10]  Mata Hari: don't think so....not certain
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think there is
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: on another note, you got your inventory issues sorted out mata?
[11:11]  Mata Hari: but there is the ability here to change it via script
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: opensim had it for a while with lightshare
[11:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: Mata, I've run across a case of a scripted device that can affect windlight settings.
[11:11]  Mata Hari: with lightshare, yes
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but no viewers support lightshare anymore I dont think
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh?
[11:11]  Mata Hari: no, just one and it's dead
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's not just more or less ientical to windlight?
[11:11]  Mata Hari: but that would be a very, very nice thing to have
[11:11]  Shaun.Emerald I'm pretty sure FS still has a setting for it
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the original creators of lightshare were impossible to work with
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: meta7 people
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks will have to find the windlight script (if he has a copy) or find the person who did have it.
[11:12]  Mata Hari: it won't detect a change via script....if you leave the region and return you'll see it but not if you're in the region
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: that could possibly be a bug
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: does that same thing happen in SL?
[11:12]  Mata Hari: so the change is stored but there's never a message sent to the client viewers saying "new setting....change to it"
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: or is it immediate for everyone in SL?
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: not easy to test that
[11:13]  Mata Hari: I've never tied that in SL
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you own a region
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: parcel owners cant set that
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: need to be estate owner or manager
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: not sure but i think i have seen trhe same probnlem in sl. but tried it long time ago
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: i talk about parcel windlight
[11:13]  Shaun.Emerald I liked LightShare because it could work at the parcel level.
[11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, If I could get a script I could test it in SL. I know people who own a region there and I have perms on the land.
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no parcel windlight
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: its not a script
[11:13]  Mata Hari: FS supports parcel windlight
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its in the Estate Panel
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: there is in soem viewers
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no windlight scripting in SL that I am aware of
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: oh interesting
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: you can put a special line in about land description
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: but does SL support it?
[11:14]  Mata Hari: yes
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: do parcel level windlight get stored?
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: its not official
[11:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought there was windlight scripting in OSs though.
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: oh interesting is that new?
[11:14]  Mata Hari: a year or two
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: no. not sure if every viewer is supporting it
[11:15]  Sarah Kline: you can also set at different heights on the parcel
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: so LL didnt officially do this?
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker:
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was against the TPV TOS to implement things without LL permission, and without LL doing it first
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: Really? Then how are viewers able to do var regions, etc/
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: it where implemented beforr that
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: ?
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: LL doesnt have Var
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: so it would not change the SL experience
[11:15]  Mata Hari: no idea.....I'm sure they would hav freaked out at FS if it was an issue
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: or is that the mechanism where they make use of LL stuff to implement things LL doesn't want (like encrypted IM)?
[11:16]  Mata Hari: and FS would have pulled it
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: justin , SL dont support var. so thats no problem
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: anything that changes the SL experience is forbidden without LLs permission and also they have to implement it first before TPVs introduce it to the public
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't that why some viewers have separate versions? One for SL and one for non-SL?
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: couldn't one argue they also dont' supported scriptable windlight?
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: huh, ok
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I think chiefly because of Havok licensing, but the split tends to pull in other stuff too
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: they dont care about things that change the opensim experience going into the viewer as long as it doesnt effect what you see or experience inside of SL
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: :)
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: so they can turn on scriptable wl just for os ;)
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:17]  Mata Hari: if it's there
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: the reason for asking whether this stuff happen sin SL is that if it does already, it means there is already a viewer implementation for doing it
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya however, if LL were to implement it after the fact
[11:17]  Hippo Finesmith: i smell a plan coming on lol
[11:17]  Mata Hari: and if the region/parcel sends a "windlight changed" notice
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: that could cause problems because LL tends to do things very differently than us
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it isn't, then it probably requires viewr-side work
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes
[11:18]  Mata Hari: in some respects there must be a viewer inmplementation
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, to actually change anythig nin the first place
[11:19]  Mata Hari: if you change windlight settings at a region level using yur viewer then it will update
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: if there's a missing part it's some inbound udp mesasge to tell the viewer to to trigger a change or something liek that
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: but does that change other people's viewers? presumably not
[11:19]  Mata Hari: and everyone in the region sees that change
[11:19]  Mata Hari: yes it does
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh really?
[11:19]  Sarah Kline: yes
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, then there's very likely a useable mechanism
[11:19]  Mata Hari: if region owner changes windlight everyone sees it
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: even for parcel level?
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL
[11:19]  Mata Hari: it works here too, alreadu
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: then it's more likely one could implement change via script server-side
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i wonder how they are storing and delivering that info if LL doesnt officially support it
[11:20]  Sarah Kline: there's a popup option to accept setting or it can be auto like media
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: uh, so what are we arguing about? :)
[11:20]  Mata Hari: being able to change it via script
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: right
[11:20]  Sarah Kline: it goes in the parcel info area
[11:20]  Mata Hari: at present only estate owner can make a chenage "live"
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: we actually already have the OSSL scripting for lightshare too
[11:20]  Mata Hari: or estate managers too I guess
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: so those could probably be adapted or replaced
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, so lightshare used different UDP message?
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: we should probably drop support for lightshare at some point
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: if and when its replaced
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:22]  TBG Renfold: I don't think lightshare works properly with pgsql anyway, think there's a mantis I forgot to drop on that subject
[11:22]  Shaun.Emerald aslong aswl can do anything ls can, sure
[11:22]  Mata Hari: that would definitely be nice to have, a 0.9 project :p
[11:23]  Mata Hari: won't give you snow or rain but would be a step in that direction
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: on another topic, you got your inventory issue fixed?
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it would be cool
[11:24]  Mata Hari: nope
[11:24]  Mata Hari: still infinite fetch loops all the time at non-plaza
[11:24]  Mata Hari: roughly 1/4 of all logins
[11:24]  TBG Renfold: anyone seen the black dragon (think that's it) that has god rays? not able to try myself, but that does look cool
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey wonders what a god ray is
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: then we could do cool stuff like this >
[11:25]  Hippo Finesmith: ^
[11:25]  Mata Hari: nicer than a devil ray?
[11:25]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          b59812b: 2014-06-16 22:20:30 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:26]  TBG Renfold: the rays of the sun through trees etc
[11:26]  Alicia Raven: that would be nice, need a good gpu tho
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya opengl is not so great at doing stuff like that in realtime
[11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: and still auto-play is working when you have auto-play disabled :(
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: even just shadows clobber my 780GTX
[11:28]  TBG Renfold: yeah, thats the problem, there are alot of people out there who are not hardcore gamers that just dont go and buy good gpu's unless it's really needed
[11:28]  Mata Hari: grats on the official 0.8 release Justin & Co
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm gald to finally get it done
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: i wish SLK / opensim would run more smooth with everything enabled
[11:28]  paulie Flomar: Grrrrrr...appearance issues. :( MY alpha mask isnt rendering properly. :(
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: good gpu dont help
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: now just the usual slightly nervous period that some release breaking regression doesn't pop up
[11:28]  TBG Renfold: the nvidia I'm currently using became obsolete a few months back :)
[11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks couldn't sit through more than the 1st minute of the 7 minute long windlight demo.
[11:28]  paulie Flomar: GOnan clear cache / relog.
[11:28]  Hippo Finesmith: is there a page documenting the 0.8 changes?
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: and i have GF670
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: lol Andrew, i made that one day when i was bored
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: google for opensim 0.8 release notes
[11:29]  Arielle Popstar: were the mega region issues fixed?
[11:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I know what you mean. I had problems with 0.7.6 when it first came out.
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. At this point, anything really bad can always be fixed in a
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: but hopefully that won't be necessary
[11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, we've had rc's for a while now and people have been using them successfully
[11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: I tried testing 076 before deploying it but still didn't discover the issues until I let users in to have at it.
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think this release has had the longest RC period so far :)
[11:31]  Mata Hari: do you know how many actually d/l it?
[11:31]  Mata Hari: (the rc's)
[11:31]  TBG Renfold: Is opensim still at rc2 (being lazy not looking) because I noticed the RC3 tag being pushed to the master
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't been monitoring numbers
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: no its been release
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: no more RC
[11:31]  TBG Renfold: lol
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: TBG: That was me pushing the tag I forgot to apply previously
[11:32]  TBG Renfold: agree with you Neb, been bit of a drag this year.
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:32]  TBG Renfold: not that I am blaming anyone, just the way it goes.
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: you mean slow going?
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: really its been pretty normal from my perspective
[11:32]  TBG Renfold: yeah
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: it will never go fast enough
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:33]  TBG Renfold: true
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: this release does incorporate some major stuff, like bullet and varregions
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and from my experience slow and stead always wins the race
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: but that also meant more testing and regressio nfixing than normal which took time
[11:33]  Shaun.Emerald And Melanie's half finished merge.
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: those who tend to think they can do better and faster on their own, only burn their wings when they fly to high
[11:33]  Alicia Raven: firestorm need to fix the map for var regions, i posted bug reports on that to them
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: Yeah, the point of a release is to try and having something more stable for ppl to use that don't want to risk the bleeding edge
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: shaun: yes, took quite a lot of time to fix those issues
[11:34]  paulie Flomar: Does anyone know where to post Kitely Bug reports?
[11:34]  TBG Renfold: ohh yeah, don't get me wrong, I appreciate seeing something to pull from the master
[11:34]  Shez Oyen: Varregions was a huge leap (to me)
[11:34]  TBG Renfold: and know that core dev do have a life to lead
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: paulie, ask orenh on IRC when you see him
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, few of us get paid to work on this stuff ;)
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: he is one of the lead engineers at Kitely
[11:35]  paulie Flomar: neb: thx :)
[11:35]  Shaun.Emerald You know, she made a big dealout of giving that region crossing stuff to Core. Might be nice if we actually got it. :)
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: and even then, it's pay to work on ppl's immediate issues, not necesssarily core stuff that benefits everyone
[11:35]  Arielle Popstar: R. Adams will not be doing any more patches that Diva is taking over?
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Shaun
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to happen soon
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva is taking over
[11:35]  Shaun.Emerald Oh?
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue seemed not interested anymore I guess got overwhelmed by the work
[11:35]  Mata Hari: don't know Shaun.....if it's as bugged as part 1 was maybe it's better we not get it
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and Melanie has been in the hospital for some time
[11:36]  Shaun.Emerald She was just saying in email that region crossing stuff doesn't interest her - co-something did instead.
[11:36]  Shez Oyen: burn out seems to be part of a natural progression
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but Diva said she is going to pick it up and get it done here soon
[11:36]  paulie Flomar: Mels in hospital?
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: shes been in and out yes
[11:36]  Arielle Popstar: i ran into Ubit on s/l the other day
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont know exactly what for
[11:36]  paulie Flomar: :(
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I also dont' want to merge in someone else's work if they can't help
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but shes been ill
[11:36]  Shaun.Emerald I knew Melanie had been ill earlier this year. I was not aware she was in the hospital.
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but yes, Diva and Melanie have a good working relationship
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: I already had to do it for one merge and that was a pita
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva will get the job done
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[11:36]  Shaun.Emerald Yes, they do.
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there are different relationships in the team
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: we're not a single corporate entity
[11:37]  Shaun.Emerald Okay, I'll shut my yap then. :)
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: so ya some good news there
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: everyone just hang in there good stuff is coming
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: would have happened sooner if it wasnt for this release
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: there is always going to be delays, just have to stay patient :)
[11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: so diva is out of the books again ?
[11:38]  Shaun.Emerald for the summer
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: yes book is done
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: available for purchase at Amazon :)
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: book?
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh really. You have a link?
[11:38]  Shez Oyen: title?
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: althuogh I thik it's not to do with virtual worlds iirc :)
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi:
[11:39]  Shaun.Emerald So what kind of good things are coming, Nebadon?
[11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: Um... I think I should be rejoining the family soon. There is something going on where I should be in attendance.
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: oh well vehicle border crossing stuff etc..
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: Melanie has tons of improvements
[11:39]  Shez Oyen: hoooooray!!!
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that once this merge is done should bring a floodgate of improvements
[11:39]  Shez Oyen: ::happy dance::
[11:39]  Arielle Popstar: wont it require merging mel's version of ode?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:40]  Alicia Raven: sounds like christmas eve hehe
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: diva's book:
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: once the big merge is done then bulletsim can finish up
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: as long as it doesn't hold up other development unnecessarily then that's fine
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think it will, but its hard to predict stuff like that, but I know Diva has limited time
[11:40]  Shaun.Emerald This is what branches are for ...
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: so I dont think she intends on keeping this open ended
[11:40]  Richardus Raymaker: use a new branch for the merge testing ?
[11:40]  Mata Hari: would be nice if it got some preliminary testing before commit too....
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, doesn't help if ppl refuse to use them
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to be a lightning strike when it happens
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I honestly don't like the sound of that
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: big patches make it very hard to peer review changes
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: well have a chat with Diva
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: she can fill you in better
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont want to speak for her
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it will be one big patch
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: i just mean she is going to move fast when it happens
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think diva likes big patches either
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: last time it was one big patch and that made for a load of difficult bugs to fix
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: and regressions
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:42]  Arielle Popstar: so mel's merges were not completed in january"?
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: correct
[11:42]  Mata Hari: they're still not completed
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue had started it, and then because Melanie had her medical issues, she didnt have time to commit to it
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: and I think Misterblue just got overwhelmed on his own
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: but melanie and diva are much closer and mesh better as a team for sure
[11:43]  Arielle Popstar: is Mel allowing merges right up to where avination is currently?
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: I don't know all the details
[11:43]  Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: what is merged is up to the ppl involved. As loing as it doesn't unnecessarily hold up proper open-source development then that's fine by me.
[11:45]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:45]  Arielle Popstar: just strikes me that so much of it must be interrelated
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: well the problem is Avination and Core code have merged considerably
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I don't really like this kidn of merge - it brings in a bunch of code that was developed out of the public eye and the usual peer review
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: Melanie wants to get back to having Avination be very near what core code is
[11:46]  Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, the merge should get close to that.,
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: and thats what Diva is going to help her do, then once that happens the other patches can flow into core much more easilly
[11:46]  Arielle Popstar: is avination gone over to bullet too?
[11:46]  Andrew Hellershanks: A bunch of stuff needs to be merged in to Avination then that will allow Avination stuff to be merged in to OS.
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so Arielle
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: but I think that may be a possibility in the future
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: Melanie has expressed interest in that in the past
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and Andrew yes
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: that is the goal
[11:48]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[11:48]  Arielle Popstar: sounds like potentially messy business for a bit
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:48]  Mata Hari: *shudders*
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: it can't be like last time
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: well I trust in Divas ability
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: having the master broken for such a length of time was a huge pita
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I do not expect that will be the case honestly
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: We can certainly discuss that when the time comes, she should probably be around today
[11:49]  Juicy Babii: no shortage of testers, counting everybody here :-/
[11:49]  Arielle Popstar: any eta for when Mel will be out of hospital?
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I think shes been in and out
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, today is hair for me but I'm sure the subject will come up sometime
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: If you will excuse me, I better get going and rejoin the family. See you all next week.
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I don't know exactly what she is going through, I just know shes been quite ill of late
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I'm sure Diva isn't just going to merge in huge unrelated blocks in single commits
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye andrew
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks waves
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline
[11:50]  Arielle Popstar: tc Andrew
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: no I dont think so, and I think initially most of the work is being done ont he Avination side
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: the poiint is to bring Avination up to near core first
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: bye Andrew
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: then push stuff from avination into core
[11:51]  Razor.Laser bye Andrew
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: so I think the plan is to push most of the pain to avination
[11:51]  Sarah Kline: we get the new script engine too?
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: unlikely
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: Avinations script engine is not suitable for core
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: its mono only
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: does it rely on mono hacks?
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: I beleive so
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: script engine is a really intersting area, which hopefully will get some good work one day
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: we can probably borrow good stuff from Aurora
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: however thats not always easy
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's a hard problem to fairly partition out processing power to all those scripts but avoid a bad impact on the sim
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: but it is my understanding that the Aurora engine is better than ours
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: but I cant quantify that with facts
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: they always say that :)
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: and maybe it's true, no idea
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant say for sure either
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: just what I hear
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is true that xengine hasn't had too much serious work, apart from some of the stuff I did on co-op termination
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: which needs to become default really
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: from what i have heard though
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: Aurora xengine supports microthreading
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but I could be wrong about that
[11:53]  Alicia Raven: i came from aurora and havnt noticed much difference myself
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: microthread is just a fancy name for co-operative multi-tasking afaik
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds about right heh
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: for things like timers though that is important
[11:54]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: and sleeps
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:54]  TBG Renfold: I tested a port of the display names module about a year ago, not too much difference, script engine maybe a different story
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: atm, it's too easy for scripts to cause problems
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: TBG: there's a port of display names to opensim?
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: indeed
[11:55]  TBG Renfold: I done a proof of concept on my own grid when I had it running
[11:56]  TBG Renfold: for my own satisfaction test really (ego)
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ya script engine is a complicated beast
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: biggest problem is finding a cross platform solution for threadng
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: something that works equally as well on .net and mono
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: I do wonder if an interpreted solution might work better
[11:56]  Mata Hari: a hammer might.....
[11:56]  Hippo Finesmith: lol
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: both have their own different ways of handling threading
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: transform script code into an internal bytecode ;)
[11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: lol, that dont repair a broken window mata
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I don't think that it's a simple area for sure
[11:57]  TBG Renfold: there were a few methods I had to convert over, but they really were not so much of a problem
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: well like i said I think aurora has it
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: but also a reasonably self-contained challenge which I'm sure must have been solved by other projects
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: thats probably the only big difference between aurora and opensim engines
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: when I have some of that mythical free time I will take a look :)
[11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: angelscript, but that's c++
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and while its not obvious the improvements I am sure there are some
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: I think the bigggest improvment would be sleeps not hogging whole threads
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: and timers beingmore accurate
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: hm
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: llSleep sucks in opensim
[11:59]  TBG Renfold: Thread.Sleep sucks anyway lol
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: you get 20 or 30 scripts doing 10 second sleep
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: and forget it
[12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: if i use sleep i stay below 1.1 sec
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think one really wants to just save the stack and free up the thread rather than sleeping it
[12:00]  Sarah Kline: did we have to use a timer hack for a vehicle script once because of no microthreads?
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: from what I understand SL uses "Yield Injection" for multitasking which seems might be possible to do at compile time
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm not sure exactly how one woujld pause execution in an arbitrary place without taking a different approach such as interpreting scripts
[12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: hi pauli
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess 'microthread' is what one would call such a solution (or co-operative multi-tasking/yielding :)
[12:01]  paulie Flomar: Howdeh, RR. :)
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I kinda thought "microthreading" was like coroutines
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ya multiple processes sharing same thread?
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: well the threadpool allows multiple *uses* of the same thread
[12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: one at a time
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i mean i remember years ago in SL seeing casino regions running 15,000 scripts
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: almost flawlessly
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: your operating system already shares processes amongst cores
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: even higher I recall seeing regions near 20k scripts
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: their server is written in C++ where I think you have more latitude
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: comapred to running on top of a VM
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and these were casinos
[12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: uhmm, not sure if SL then already where using microthreading
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: must have been tons fo timers and sleeps
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: unless you start doing super-messy stuff like hacking that vm...
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: random number generators out the wazoo
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: one at a time may not be so bad. From what I understand, an entire SL sim runs on one core
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: thats been a design goal
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: whichi s much better than we can do
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: opensim runs badly on a single core in my experience
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: well it wasnt a design goal for us
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh, "design goal"
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: LL wants 24 simulators on 1 box
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: justin 1 core for opensim, dont mean the OS runs on the same core
[12:05]  TBG Renfold: I would say dule core minimum for the specs of OS
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, everything has to run on the same core if you only have one
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: when you have 30k physical servers
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, dual core is the realistic min I have found
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: squeezing blood from stones becomes more prudent
[12:05]  TBG Renfold: unless dedicated
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure LL is probably more in the 4000-5000 server range now though
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: if you have the discipline for single core programming it's also a lot simpler and less buggy
[12:06]  TBG Renfold: I squeeze blood from stones
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: when you starting having more than one thread flying about, complexity increases dramatically along with race condition bugs
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: but on the other hand, processors aren't getting faster but cores are increasing, so making better use of cores is ultimately a good thing
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: not getting much faster I mean
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: or not so quickly as previously
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully graphene changes that soon :)
[12:07]  TBG Renfold: yeah
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: well a bunch of cores all spinning on locks may not be better than a single core
[12:07]  TBG Renfold: sooner the better
[12:08]  TBG Renfold: It's like waiting for blu-ray all over again. 10 years later :(
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:08]  Mata Hari looks at stack of 8-tracks
[12:08]  Juicy Babii: at least the clear winner in the format wars betweeen Blu-Ray and HD-DVD has been decided: streaming video. :P
[12:09]  Dahlia Trimble: dont wait. Just use opensim as it is and you wont be disappointed by delays :)
[12:09]  TBG Renfold: ummm, my wife's currently clearing out the VHS if that makes you feel any better ;)
[12:09]  Richardus Raymaker: going todo that, when i have the energy to finsih the server and enough to start building
[12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to get something to eat
[12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the conversation, folks
[12:09]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:09]  Dahlia Trimble: bye jcc
[12:09]  Arielle Popstar: waves
[12:10]  TBG Renfold: bye Justin
[12:10]  Hippo Finesmith: tc jcc
[12:10]  Dahlia Trimble: I'm going too. bye all :)
[12:10]  Shez Oyen: bb
[12:10]  Mata Hari: bye Justin
[12:10]  Razor.Laser cuya Justic
[12:10]  Hippo Finesmith: bb Dahlia
[12:10]  Razor.Laser Justin*
[12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:10]  Mata Hari: and Dahlia
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