Chat log from the meeting on 2014-04-01

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[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: They worked. That's not the same as now broken. ;)
 
[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: They worked. That's not the same as now broken. ;)
 
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: 8 person physical roller coaster on BulletSim
 
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: 8 person physical roller coaster on BulletSim
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[12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's the way to grow the ecosystem, I think
 
[12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's the way to grow the ecosystem, I think
 
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[[Category:Office Hour Logs]]

Latest revision as of 14:25, 25 October 2015

[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: They worked. That's not the same as now broken. ;)
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: 8 person physical roller coaster on BulletSim
[11:05]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org: yes broken now
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hi marcus
[11:05]  Robert Adams: Nebadon... I haven't... Cutulala showed me a physical test setup but I haven't seen anything finished
[11:05]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: Heya Rich
[11:05]  Connected
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:06]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: Hi Justin
[11:06]  Eliopod Beaumont: Hi Justin
[11:06]  Marcus Llewellyn smiles :)
[11:06]  Sarah Kline: Hi Justin
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi is Online
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: i hope to start building next week. testing grtid this week. (and try to figure out where to start on the sim ) lol
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: we are going to release a new Physics Arena oar soon that has the physical coaster included
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: i just need to check with Cute if its ready yet
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: soon as I see her again
[11:07]  Robert Adams: oh wow...
[11:07]  Marcus Llewellyn: Does it have one of those "You must be this high," signs with it? :)
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: i stay with the old pos way
[11:07]  Robert Adams: that looks great
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: for now
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: You mean lower then this hight marcus :)
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: or better between this signs
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its pretty awesome
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: the left and right arrow keys make it spin around the track
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: and forward arrow makes it move
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i made another video of less complex version
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: you can see exacly how it works
[11:09]  Marcus Llewellyn: All it needs is Oculus and sick bags.
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HS15u-Fck&hd=1
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its a torus wrapped around elongated cube track
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its basically just a car script
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: slightly modified
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:09]  Marcus Llewellyn: Prim build or mesh?
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: prims
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: well the 1st video the coaster is mesh
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: but we set physics to none on everything but the torus
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: to reduce stress on physics engine
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: cool, works for monorails etc. harder for train. i tried something else but scripts are to slow for that or sensors
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: exciting stuff :)
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: amazing it works so good
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I was quite impressed
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey robert. As you know, I think we need to do a release soon
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: incase anyone just getting here missed the first video link
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: here it is again
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7tYfQ1LYoA&hd=1
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: physical roller coaster on Bulletsim
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: well, start to work with 0.8 more. and its going betetr
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: think a few bugs maby before release
[11:13]  Robert Adams: justincc... what do you want fixed for the r elease?
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I presume variable regions should still be considered experimental? Would it be okay to have it disabled by defauly behind a configuration flag until its prime time?
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I'm Exploding!
[11:13]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: megas need fixing
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, think people disappointed if 0.8 dont have var
[11:13]  Robert Adams: there is not a special flag.... it is disabled if you don't speciffy a size in the Regions.ini
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: how could 0.8 not have var
[11:14]  Sarah Kline: I think they are just as ready as Megas ever were
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be impossible
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: and terrain edit worrks sofar i tested acceptable. loading is still slow
[11:14]  Marcus Llewellyn: Ahhh... watching the video explains a lot. Very cool. :)
[11:14]  Robert Adams: in most cases, I check if the region is non-legacy and, only do the special code if so
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah, i think and hope var;s are betetr then mega's already
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: you're happy that's enough to stop you getting an avalanche of bugs if it's not totally ready?
[11:14]  Sarah Kline: we converted our regions and are very happy with how its runninng
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus it would be impossible for 0.8 to not have var
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its in core now
[11:14]  Sarah Kline: and visitors like too
[11:15]  Robert Adams: if people don't specify a larger size... only the normal avalanche of bugs will be expected
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: sarah, starting soon finaly i hoep with what i want for 1+ year
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: var is definitely ready for prim time if you ask me
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: im using it on several projects
[11:15]  Robert Adams: the only real breakage seems to be around mega-regions
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: ok, fair enough :)
[11:15]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: not seems
[11:15]  Sarah Kline: lol people are going to max them of course
[11:15]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: it is broken
[11:15]  Marcus Llewellyn: I've been running both var and non-var from master for weeks. I'm not much of a data point, but it's been stable for me.
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: the other bugs I currently have as major stoppers are mantis 7067, which is avatars hovering above groudn
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, 2048 is slow laoding. 1280 var works fine think its 1 minute before terrain is loaded
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats a tough one Justin
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: mantis 7050 where region crossing back and forth whilst sitting crashes the simulator
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: that likely requires new capsule?
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: and I need to investigate some issues with npcs
[11:16]  Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i guess it could be made a bit better, but proper fix is new capsule i think right?
[11:16]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: is var working with Ode now?
[11:16]  Marcus Llewellyn: Rich, slow loading how? Terrain?
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: personally, I expect it just requires adjustment to the existing cpasule
[11:16]  Sarah Kline: I have not noticed it recently
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats a bandaid though
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: which is fine
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, of course Melanie broke it but there's no timeline for fixing it
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: one annoying problem, is the floating avatr. seen it now to default avater hovers around 0.5
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: which really isn't good enough imo
[11:17]  Robert Adams: justincc: there was a bug about NPC and MoveToTarget... I glanced at the code and the problem wasn't obvious
[11:17]  Richardus Raymaker: marcus, yes var terrain loading is slow
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: does it have a mantis?
[11:17]  Marcus Llewellyn: I can say mesh terrain loads very quickly. :)
[11:18]  Mata Hari: other kind of annoying bug is when initial inventory fetch completely locks up in non-plaza region
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, ideally that will get fixed for next release but it was also present in 0.7.6
[11:18]  Robert Adams: justincc: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7051
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: we talk about terrain
[11:18]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Mata Hari, Seems a good result to Mantis 0007038, have you managed more testing?
[11:18]  Marcus Llewellyn: BUt yeah... I've seen the terrain loading slow on my 2048. It's pretty bad. I'm guessing that's some sort of UDP thing?
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: also, the fix is probably not going to be simple as I think it invovles telling the viewer when the request times out
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: from its perspective
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: reobrt: thanks, shall I try and take a look?
[11:19]  Robert Adams: terrain loading is currently one patche per UDP packet.... can take a while
[11:19]  Mircea Kitsune: Had to re-log because some attachments wouldn't work any more. This seems to happen after teleporting to another region before all your attachments rez (non-hypergrid)
[11:19]  Sarah Kline: you can minimise the drawing effect by having objects drawing in front of the scene
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: one thing I have noticed about the avatar floating is there seems to be a difference between prims and terrain
[11:19]  Robert Adams: there is a fix, but it needs some testing
[11:20]  Sarah Kline: ie putting stuff on your vars lol
[11:20]  Mircea Kitsune: So from what I'm seeing, if you log in then teleport to another region before all your attachments are rezzed, those attachments will no longer work till you re-log
[11:20]  Mata Hari: I've been watching it somewhat and it *seems* like it usually gets stock when fetching the links for built-in AO
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: there is an issue with attachment scripts restarting I think. It might have been pre-existing or got worse
[11:20]  Mata Hari: *stuck
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: some kind of race condition
[11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: but why is a normal 0.7 sim terrain laoding much faster then 0.8 ?
[11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: unless something hugfh changed
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: because of varregions Richardus
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: something huge did change
[11:20]  Sarah Kline: on same 256 parcel?
[11:20]  Mata Hari: most often it seems it's my FS built-in AO that doesn't (ever0 activate
[11:21]  Marcus Llewellyn: 0.8 terrain load fine on a 256 size sim. a 2048 is *huge* rich. Even a 1024 took me 4 minutes to fly across. That's a lot of terrain.
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: melanie explained the badness of the built in AOs once
[11:21]  Sarah Kline: zackly
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: the pimple loading in 0.8 slow. not seen it with 0.7.6
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: no terrain load slow on every type. on 0.8
[11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: compared to 0.7.6
[11:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: Viewer AO's are bad things? I thought having viewer side AO's was supposed to be a good thing?
[11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, but build in AO's work at least in opensim
[11:22]  Mircea Kitsune: Never seen terrain loading slow here. I always run latest GIT master myself
[11:22]  Mata Hari: I must congratulate Orenh on the fix to that mesh asset issue....I can now tp without any trouble wearing mesh for the first time
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: great Mata
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that was a very nice investigation and fix from him
[11:23]  Mircea Kitsune: Nice
[11:23]  Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, I've only seen slow terrain loading on large vars.
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ya Melanie explained why the built in AO was bad but now I can not remember
[11:23]  Mircea Kitsune: Didn't see any problem with mesh. But like I said all ttachments break for that login session if you teleport too quickly after login
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: something about how its triggered or something
[11:23]  Mata Hari: something to do with the links it generates?
[11:23]  Sarah Kline: me too and ones with complex terraforming
[11:23]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ok
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure if you ask her she could explain it again
[11:24]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was doing some work on an inworld AO recently. I'm trying to see which one(s) of the dozen that I have will work reliably.
[11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: well, always staying a few seconds on invisible normal pimpel terrain with 0.8 at least on my own grid. think standalone where the same
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: it is a shame that LL didnt design the AO to be viewer side from day one
[11:25]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: would have made for a much more consistent experience
[11:25]  Andrew Hellershanks: I know a lot of inworld AO's use fast timers but that isn't needed any more with OpenSim.
[11:25]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: Justin, what about the broken mega's and Ode with Vars? will they be fixed before release/?
[11:25]  Marcus Llewellyn: Didn't LL ad server side scripting support for AOs?
[11:25]  Mata Hari: trouble with that, Andrew, is regions where scripts are disabled
[11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, ionsteads LL moved soem AO stuff to the server side with lsl scripts
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe but if you go some where that has scripts disabled that is problematic
[11:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: Mata, true. It may be why some viewers added AO support.
[11:26]  Mircea Kitsune: Sucks the official SL viewer doesn't have AO support like most custom viewers. Would have been better if AO's were a special wearable item like clothes are
[11:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: Mata, I have heard of scripts that can still run in no script regions. No idea how they manage to do that.
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: there will very likely be no ode on var before release. I don't know what's broken with megas. I believe robert is looking at at least one issue
[11:26]  Mircea Kitsune: Since scripted AO's tend to suck. EG: They don't work in script-disabled regions... at least last time I noticed
[11:27]  Robert Adams: varregions are not planned to work with ODE
[11:27]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7084
[11:27]  Mircea Kitsune: Erm, parcels
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin were you planning on implementing VAR on ODE?
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: I was thinking of looking at it, but certainly not 0.8 timeframe
[11:27]  Marcus Llewellyn: Just curiosity... does *any* other physics engine work on vars? POS or whatever?
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: we should change over to the Aurora ODE
[11:27]  Robert Adams: I need to fix TP and megas
[11:27]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: there was talk from both Justn and robert about doing so in past
[11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: not sure why people still want to use ode. btw. think bullet still can be tuned a bit to fly smooth. but need to use it more to confirm it
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: that might not be as easy as it sounds though
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: there are no other operational phys engines, pos is little more than a stub
[11:27]  Mircea Kitsune: I assume BulletX and of course POS will work. Since Bullet is the default
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: it does perform much better though is my understanding
[11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:28]  Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:28]  Robert Adams: Aurora ODE changed the physics API a bunch.... would take come creative porting
[11:28]  Marcus Llewellyn: I haven't enabled POS in ages, so wasn't sure.
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that should be asssumed 100% of the time Robert with anything from Aurora
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: whats POS ?
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Piece of shit physics
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:28]  Mircea Kitsune: Basic physics engine. Like the most basic
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: piece of...
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: jk
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[11:28]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: well the Tp's in megas would be good or it will cause a lot of probs for people
[11:29]  Marcus Llewellyn: Basically, you dont go throgh stuff. That's it. That's all it did.
[11:29]  Mircea Kitsune: Haha... didn't know that's what the name standed for
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: no i t doesnt
[11:29]  Richardus Raymaker: uhmm. lol cant remember when i used that last time
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: calling pos a physics engine is like calling a stone a space shuttle
[11:29]  Mircea Kitsune: right
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: Physics of Simplicity
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats it
[11:29]  Mircea Kitsune: More like something that lets avatars move without a physics engine existing
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: everything is a cube
[11:29]  Richardus Raymaker: justin, depends wich direction the need to go
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and no hollows or cuts
[11:29]  Marcus Llewellyn: It was  blessing back in, like... 0.4. Before that everything was phantom. lol
[11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, ok, ty. I was thinking of something else for POS.  ;)
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: you're going to do something on mantis 7067?
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, most people do :P
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: i think thats really other one that need to be fixt before release
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's another joke name, like robust ;)
[11:31]  Marcus Llewellyn: lol
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: I vaguely remember POS was danx0r's attempt to write a physics engine from scratch in c#
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: he didnt get far
[11:32]  Marcus Llewellyn: It really was better than nohting back in the day.
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought POS came after ODE
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: not sure
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: danx0r did a lot of the early ODE work
[11:32]  Marcus Llewellyn: I vaguely remeber ODE being super duper experimental back then.
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: check this out
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: and you're going to look at mantis 7050?
[11:33]  Mircea Kitsune: I remember a time when ODE was better than Bullet
[11:33]  Mircea Kitsune: Which I think was for many years actually
[11:33]  Marcus Llewellyn: It worked, but I remember ODE being very crashy. It was very at your own risk to enable it.
[11:33]  Robert Adams: justincc: 7067... yes, I'll make a short term fix... it will take a while to get Melanie's longer term fix
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: I think first time I tried opensim I had to install physx but everything was phantom. I think it wasn't until about a year later when I tried it again
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: that's great!
[11:34]  Marcus Llewellyn: Which grid is using PhysX now? Is that Inworldz?
[11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: is 7050 really so important ? if you have var
[11:34]  Marcus Llewellyn: Or was that Meta7?
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: anything I can help with? I was planning to look at the issues, though i can also go on and look at other bugs too
[11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: marcus, sofar i know the do
[11:34]  Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:8002: inworldz
[11:34]  Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0olsWlTc0A
[11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: yup
[11:34]  Marcus Llewellyn: Thanks. :)
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: here is video of first ODE test ever
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: me and Teravus
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I had to identify and fix some tricky threading issues with ODE, where parts of the code that were apparantly thread-safe actually weren't
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: if you were running more than one regino
[11:35]  Robert Adams: justincc: I'll do megas and floating avatars and let you handle other bugs (as if there aren't enough to go around)
[11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: not tested the ground sit btw. is that fixt ? http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6813
[11:36]  Marcus Llewellyn: Besides the threading stuff, ODE is kinda moribund upstream, ain't it?
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: and the crash on region recross? I was planning on looking at that since the immediate problem hits the entity state machine (though I expect that to be a symptom rather than cause).
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: or do you think that you have a handle on it?
[11:37]  Mircea Kitsune: So I heard
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: there's still a bit of dev but not much. Vastly less than bullet, I believe
[11:37]  Robert Adams: justincc: yes, you should take the first look at the cross-crash... I would suspect it is a state machine problem
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: ok, will do
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: thanks
[11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: oh kokua dont have ground sit ?
[11:39]  Marcus Llewellyn: Anyone know is MOSES has played with vars? Maybe with DSG too?
[11:39]  Marcus Llewellyn: No, Kokua doesn't. :(
[11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: kokua, I've noticed a few things missing from Kokua.
[11:39]  Marcus Llewellyn: It's one of the few features I really miss in Kokua.
[11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks meant to direct that at Richardus
[11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: bnut vivian still did go down
[11:39]  Mircea Kitsune: I use Kokua, I remember seeing ground sit
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: Ill very probably make a post about working towards 0.8 on the dev mailing list tonight - I don't want misundertandings like last time
[11:39]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: sit = ctl-alt-s ?
[11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: bot on kokua
[11:39]  Mircea Kitsune: I used it here actually
[11:39]  Vivian Klees: yes Billy
[11:40]  Richardus Raymaker: oh wait that stupid wasd is enabled i think. the need to disable that default
[11:41]  Mircea Kitsune: WASD movement is good
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: I like wasd
[11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: no my cam moves with ctrl-alt-s
[11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: why, you neve ruse it. curcor keys are for that
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: I prefer wasd :P
[11:41]  Marcus Llewellyn uses WASD.
[11:41]  Mircea Kitsune: same
[11:42]  Sarah Kline: spot the game players )
[11:42]  Marcus Llewellyn: I also mouse steer my avatar most of the time.
[11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: game players use cursor keys. you cant go wrong then
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ive always been a arrow keys guy
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL / OS anyway
[11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: yeah. also its more easy
[11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yup. arrows ftw
[11:43]  Sarah Kline: you cant move mouse and arrow keys easily
[11:43]  Marcus Llewellyn: So, for me, I'm most W and S, with the mouse.
[11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: arrows take 2 hands and are a PITA when you have to use number and function keys to kill thingies
[11:43]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:43]  Marcus Llewellyn grins.
[11:44]  Andrew Hellershanks: dahlia, you have an odd keyboard? I have separate arrow keys from my number pad.
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya for me in SL in the Samurai Clans of Samurai island it was easier to do arrow keys and pg up and pg down for jumping
[11:44]  Andrew Hellershanks: perhaps Dahlia is using a laptop.
[11:44]  Dahlia Trimble has standard US key layout
[11:45]  Marcus Llewellyn: A full KB has both solitary arrow keys and arrow keys on the number pad.
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: laptops are not for games. only nobody see it and screaming about lag, hot , melted :)
[11:45]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Gamers use right hand to kill things
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: my laptop is
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:45]  Marcus Llewellyn won't buy a laptop without a numpad. Icky.
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya luckily my laptop does have full keyboard
[11:46]  Mircea Kitsune: mine too
[11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: then you have a good helaty right hand
[11:46]  Dahlia Trimble: I have full keyboard but I prefer WASD
[11:46]  Marcus Llewellyn: My numpad is usually in number mode.
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: someones voice locked open?
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: ah its person down at landing area
[11:47]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Voice lock is a pain, especially in conferences, could do with some remote switch
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure if I will be at the next meeting or not
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: I will try my best to be
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i will be in Sweden
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i leave on Saturday
[11:48]  Mircea Kitsune: ok. Good luck!
[11:48]  Marcus Llewellyn: Bring back meatballs. :)
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: sounds like an adventure!
[11:48]  Dahlia Trimble: ewwww 12 hour flight :(
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: Send your avatar instead. ;)
[11:48]  Marcus Llewellyn: lol
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: ya should be fun though i'll be working most of the time
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: teaching students opensim
[11:49]  Marcus Llewellyn: I'm so sorry.
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:49]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Watch out for small log cabins, with steam leaking around the door
[11:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: You get to fly to a foreign country to teach OS? Interesting. Hope you can get a chance to look around the place a bit.
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I am sure I will I may end up in germany a couple days too
[11:50]  Mircea Kitsune: Wait... you're really going on that trip for Opensim? That's awesome!!
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:50]  Mircea Kitsune: Very nice :)
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I am modeling 3 cities in Sweden
[11:50]  Mircea Kitsune: Always nice to hear this is a bigger and more implicated project than I thought
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: teaching students with Masters degrees in Urban Planning
[11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: watch out for photographers nebadon :O
[11:50]  Marcus Llewellyn: Stupid question, cuz I haven't been able to experiment much. Can var regions (and normal ones) of various sizes directly neighbor each other safely? With crossing and such?
[11:51]  Mircea Kitsune: I'm making a city here on OSGrid, but it will take a while
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: ive heard people say no you cant and otehrs who have said they did it and it worked
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: so I am not sure honestly I have never tested it
[11:51]  Marcus Llewellyn: I've kept my vars neighborless just in case.
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: nice Mircea
[11:51]  Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. It will be very detailed and interactive even
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: I hear they can be different sizes but I haven't tried it
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: nebadon2025.com/screenshots/sanjose2_002.png
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: nebadon2025.com/screenshots/sanjose2_003.png
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: Getting near top of the hour. I have some questions (for justin) before he disappears.
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: ask Robert
[11:52]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: crossing between var regions of the same size works for us
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: those are shots of one of my models that one is in San Jose CA
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: still here, reading philips blog post about identity in the metaverse
[11:52]  Mircea Kitsune: Problem is I'm going for such detail (like full apartments in each block) that I've already exceeded what would normally be the prim limit of a region on the LL grid. Thankfully tho Opensim lets me do that, even if it loads slowly
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: doing same thing with students from SJSU
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: quite interesting, though super vague
[11:52]  Mircea Kitsune: And I only started the first building lol
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew?
[11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, one of the things I've done this past week is to set my machine up so I can build the LSL parser/compiler tool in opensim-libs, and I also tracked down the latest copy of CSTools.
[11:53]  Marcus Llewellyn: Getting hi-res satellite terrain imagery is difficult. :(
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: yes it is
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: its expensive
[11:54]  Mata Hari: hack the CIA computers
[11:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, is the parser/code generation in OS and opensim-libs supposed to track each other? I noticed a patch to CSCodeGenerator.cs in OS that was not applied to opensim-libs.
[11:54]  Marcus Llewellyn: The free stuff is gonna be like 30m per pixel. Which is just a blur at full scale.
[11:54]  Mircea Kitsune: I remember there was once a plan to import real life cities into Opensim... via satellite or something. I think I looked into it sime 6 years ago? No news since
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: that is what we are doing Mircea
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew; three shoujldn't be a CSCodeGenerator in opensim-libs since that's an open side component
[11:54]  Mircea Kitsune: Oh, nice
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: its GIS/LIDAR data we are using
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: to scale
[11:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, See if you could use the information that is part of the google earth project?
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: the San Jose model is 2 miles by 1.5 miles
[11:55]  Mircea Kitsune: That would be nice
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its 12 768x768 var regions
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: in 3x4 pattern
[11:55]  Mircea Kitsune: My own skills don't go half that far tho
[11:55]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: UK gov have done this http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/innovate/developers/minecraft-map-britain.html
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its 3300 buildings hehe
[11:55]  Marcus Llewellyn: Google earth's imagry is .5m per pixel, which is still a bit low. Even so, it's also *strictly* licensed. Google pays for all of it.
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I wanted to use the lsl2cs tool in opensim-libs to test changes to the code parsing/generation.
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: ok I see the file you mean and the fact that I made a change to it. However, I can't remember why it's there... I don't think that it's a good reason though for some reason I kept it
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: actually .5 is pretty good
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: if it's important you could just apply the same changes
[11:56]  Marcus Llewellyn: MY avatar keeps typing. I'm not typing, darnit! lol
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: btw, there's a horrible gotcha with regenerating the parse that I need to tell you about
[11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I'm not sure if it is important.
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: I generally use 1m GIS and 1 foot aerial photography
[11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: Uh oh...
[11:56]  Mata Hari: it's talking behind your back, Marcus
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: essentially, the penultimate number on the long list needs to be changed from 1 to 0 manually
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: or 0 to 1 - I can't remember which way around
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: and I can't even remember why... suffice to say that if you don't do it, the parse fails
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, the long list??
[11:57]  Marcus Llewellyn: .5m ain't lousy, especially compared to whatyou'll get from something like USGS. But when you're standing on it in a var, it's still blurry. :/
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ya for free 0.5 is great
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: you will not find better
[11:58]  Marcus Llewellyn: On the other hand, free terrain elevation data works quite well for mesh terrain.
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: in the generated lsl.lexer.cs, there is a huge list of numbers in yyLSLTokens.arr, which I believe represent tokens
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: when the file is generated, I believe it is the third to last number which is 1
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: that has to be changed manually to 0 - the worst thing is that I can't remember why
[11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I have an idea now why line numbers reported in error messages are so out of whack. The generated code doesn't use #line directives and the generated code doesn't include the blank lines of the original input file so line numbers get off quickly.
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you can't miss the large array of numbers in the file - it is the only one
[12:00]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... that sounds like a change for the state machine that may indicate a bug(?) in lsl.lexer
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: #line directives?
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: Andrew didnt you say the code in opensim-libs worked properly?
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but what was in core doesnt?
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, to help the compiler know the real line numbers in the source when it deals with the generated code.
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure how it's generated atm, but I believe there is a line map which does that
[12:02]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          6557eba: 2014-03-28 13:04:19 +0300 (Unix/Mono)
[12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, Testing the output.exe to parse LSL code and checking C#, doing something like "int a=1; b=a; list c=[a,b];" in a global context is supported. OpenSim isn't accepting it.
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's very curious!
[12:03]  Marcus Llewellyn just realized Dahlia is unarmed! Who kidnapped the real Dahlia!
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, Melanie mentioned a line map but I'm not sure where it is or how to get the OS scripting ending to use it.
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: shouldnt it be a comma after a=1 ?
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: are you sure that it's not generating invalid c# code?
[12:04]  Peter.Nagy @lpgrid.com:8002: Szió baa
[12:04]  baajos.Bagley @lpgrid.com:8002: szió;)
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I meant to type "int b=a" and I'm shortcuttint as it should be "integer".
[12:04]  Peter.Nagy @lpgrid.com:8002: Hívd riát
[12:04]  baajos.Bagley @lpgrid.com:8002: olyan vagyok mint Enola;))
[12:04]  Peter.Nagy @lpgrid.com:8002: Vagy hogy hívják itt.
[12:04]  baajos.Bagley @lpgrid.com:8002: de hogy hívjam?
[12:04]  Peter.Nagy @lpgrid.com:8002: Nálam a neved van csak
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I looked at the generated C# code and it looked ok to me. IIRC, I pasted it in to a new project in monodevelop and was able to compile it.
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: I didnt think LSL allowed you to evaluate a variable outside of a block
[12:04]  Peter.Nagy @lpgrid.com:8002: TP gomb
[12:05]  Mircea Kitsune: Think I'm gonna log off now. Later
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: later
[12:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: Cya Mircea
[12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, it doesn't currently. That's the bug. It breaks a lot of scripts coming from SL. C# seems to allow it.
[12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: what andrew wrote is just more command on one line, seperated by ;
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye mircea
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, oh, I didnt think it worked in SL either
[12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: There are lots of scripts in SL that do that. Particularly for list initialization.
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: inside a block?
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, that all sounds very curious. btw, there's also bin/OpenSim.Tools.lslc.exe in OpenSimulator itself which translates lsl to c#
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: would be interesting to know if that generates the same thing or something different
[12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: You often see "integer varname=4; list somelistvar = [ varname ];"
[12:06]  Marcus Llewellyn: SL scripting is a lot looser about variable scope, if that's what you guys mean.
[12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Just look at almost any AO script.
[12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: abdrew. thats just 2 lines on one row. i dotn like it because readbilioty. but not see a problem in that.
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: I get kinda ill when I look at most AO scripts :/
[12:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, OpenSim.Tools.lslc.exe? Hm... I haven't noticed that.
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: haha dahlia
[12:08]  Marcus Llewellyn: When they do while(true) is when I run screaming.
[12:09]  Dahlia Trimble: the 0.01 second timer usually makes me run to the porcelain altar
[12:09]  Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe
[12:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, this is open chat. I don't know how to force line breaks in chat output so I'm putting the stuff on one line to show code snippets.
[12:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, it isn't how the actual LSL scripts are written.
[12:10]  Richardus Raymaker: aha
[12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to pop off now
[12:10]  Marcus Llewellyn: Take care, jcc :)
[12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:10]  Dahlia Trimble: laterz jcc
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin, talk soon I am sure :)
[12:10]  Mata Hari: bye Justin
[12:10]  Caro Fayray: bye justin
[12:10]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, btw, I captured a lot of info about the parsing and code generation. I'll eventually type it up and dump it in to the wiki.
[12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that would be fantastic - I don' t think there's much, if anything, there atm
[12:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know of anything.
[12:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Justin.
[12:11]  Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
[12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[12:12]  Mata Hari: I'm off too....bye everyone
[12:12]  Eliopod Beaumont: Bye all
[12:12]  Caro Fayray: bye dahlia
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are some pages under http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Developer_Documentation#Scripting but not much that tells you how things are working internally
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: by everyone who is leaving :)
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: hope you have a good trip, neb
[12:12]  Andrew Hellershanks wishes he had someone who would pay money for working on Open Source projects. :)
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks Justin
[12:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, Have a great trip, nebadon.
[12:12]  Sarah Kline: bye justin
[12:12]  Marcus Llewellyn: I thought scripts where excecuted by leprechauns enslaved by MelT. :)
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's noe easy, but hopefully the opportunities can increase in the future
[12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's the way to grow the ecosystem, I think
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