Chat log from the meeting on 2013-11-19

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[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks is online.
[11:03] Freaky.Tech deloping => developing
[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: maby the 4th one solved or not so important
[11:04] logger sewell: does anyone know if CHANGED_REGION_RESTART is implemented in the code one of our residents was asking
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: DOn't know. I'm using 075PF. I haven't checked for the problem in 076 yet
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: ojee. 0.7.5 :)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: now it is going to be bugging me until I remember what the 4th item was that I ran across
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, justin
[11:05] Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:05] dan banner: hi justin
[11:05] logger sewell: Hi Justin
[11:05] Freaky.Tech probably a diff reveals that ;)
[11:05] Freaky.Tech hi justin
[11:05] Dahlia Trimble is online.
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: logger: I believe it is implemented
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I have found the problem. I don't have solutions for any of them yet.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I'll be back. Save me a seat.
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, transparent water have hugh impact on framerate
[11:06] logger sewell: ok thanks they are having trouble with a train script stopping after a restart of the region
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I just remembered what is the 4th code issue.
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: !ohh tran script. what type of train ? physics simple pois ?
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: pos
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:07] Mircea Kitsune: Might be a bit slow. Still working on debugging viewer shaders with Mesa and the Radeon driver (quite a pain, but SL shaders have some issues)
[11:08] logger sewell: not sure it a timed tram they have set up on there region with stops at different places she just asked me about it this morning
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: logger: It looks implemented in the code. But of course, there can always be bugs
[11:08] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:08] Freaky.Tech hi Dahlia
[11:08] Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:08] logger sewell: Hi Dalhia
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Has anyone else had issues with scripts that need to be recompiled(?) before they run after a region has been restarted?
[11:08] logger sewell: yeh that is true :)
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly there might be an issue if the simulator was not shut down cleanly
[11:09] Freaky.Tech llVolumeDetect gets lost after region restart on 0.7.6
[11:09] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          f94d07f: 2013-11-16 03:02:57 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:09] Freaky.Tech but script state is saved
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i never could use llvolume for me projects. because it need to be solid prim
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I've not heard of that before
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. It is a radio script and it is always left in the region.
[11:09] logger sewell: we are on 7.5pf right now seams the most stable
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i wish we did have a trigger that worked with phantom prims
[11:09] Freaky.Tech I made a few phantom walk through teleporters for a region ;)
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Other scripts are always still running. Don't know why it seems to be just one or two that need kicking to get them going again.
[11:10] Freaky.Tech added a timer to workaround that property loss
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: so what happens if you reset them?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I should try just resetting them. I usually open the script force a save to get them going. After that, they run fine.
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: llVolumeDetect does not work really good with Bulletsim yet
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: I have a feeling we're never preserved llVolumeDetect settings
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, we don't have Robert here yet.
[11:11] Freaky.Tech it does on the region where I have them on except for region restart without workaround
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if you really need to use llVolumeDetect i suggest staying on ODE for now
[11:11] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, BTW. Are these meetings a good place and time to discuss minor bugs? I reported and submitted patches for two smaller Opensim issues, which people might be able to confirm on spot if they want
[11:11] Vivian Klees: Robert won't be here
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it will be extremely painful
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: right, that's what would require the persistence
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: sure
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: i still dont get at the building. i hope var's are useable when i start building. i hope robert makes save and load oar working soon with var's but still in (yes still) setup stage of system.
[11:12] Mircea Kitsune: ok
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, ok. thanks. Just wanted to ask him something about physics and mesh support.
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus its super simple to transfer mega-regions to var
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon. never seen a real use for llvolume
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not implemented on bulletsim?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so for now just work with Mega region if your intention is to switch to VAR
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its implemented, but it works terrible
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Yes nebadon. oh thats true i wanted to build as mega for now
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: needs major improvement
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its extremely unreliable
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: and convert it later
[11:12] Dahlia Trimble: can ask me about physics and mesh
[11:12] Mircea Kitsune: First one is: If anyone stands up, anters mouse look mode (with "show avatar in mouselook" enabled), and looks up and down. Does the camera move up and down and jitter around the place?
[11:12] Freaky.Tech I found one for nice looking walk through teleporters
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: llVolumeDetect is reliant on physics engine to work
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its not purely Xengine
[11:13] Freaky.Tech did not yet give a big problem on using them only restart
[11:13] Mircea Kitsune: Description here
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it is very reliable under ODE
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: for me i can cam fine in mouselook
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i have had my NPCs go for weeks using ODE
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but with bulletsim in about 20-30 minutes they all stop moving
[11:14] Mircea Kitsune: Rich: You see your avatar in mouselook? And the camera doesn't snap around the place? What viewer, also?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: because the waypoinnts just stop working eventually
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, In 075PF are there still problems with physics and mesh objects where you can't walk through open parts of the mesh?
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: neb, this sim bullet or ode ?
[11:14] Vivian Klees: bullet
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I seem to recall that there were changes made in BS to address this in git master.
[11:14] Mircea Kitsune is still confused why others don't experience this issue, since it affects all viewers I tried for years
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: what os do you use?
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: we are on Bullet here Richardus
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, no i dont see my avatar. thats default disabled in mouselook
[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, if the physics mesh is high enough LOD and your avatar capsule will fit within the holes you should be able to walk thru
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: let em check again
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: actually Dahlia
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: that is true until a point
[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: but your capsule is not necessarily shaped like your avatar
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: you can actually have your Physics LOD too high
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and Meshmerizer or ODE or Bullet one of them freaks
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and you get Artifacts that can block holes
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: i see my legs now/. but no weird bouncing
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, ok thanks. I had someone who had a problem with that.
[11:16] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Currently openSUSE 13.1. But it happened since I was in Windows XP, then Windows 7
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: there are lots of ways it can be messed up
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: your Physics LOD should never exceed 16k vertices
[11:16] Mircea Kitsune: It happened with more than just one viewer also. Original SL viewer, Hioop (back in its day), and now Firestorm
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: 32k should work but is an absolute limit
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive had trouble above 16k
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: 16k much better
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I presume things like avatar shape don't make a difference? I know there is a bug atm where if you change appearance settings, subsueqent av movement becomes extremely jerky. Probably unrelated though
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: with my terrain
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i get invsible walls
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and fall through terrain
[11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Sure. I used many avatars since I saw the issue years ago, and it happened with all
[11:17] Dahlia Trimble: terrain works for me at 32k
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: but doesn't happen with ll grid?
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Dahlia: thanks. I've made a note of those limits.
[11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: No, never. And also doesn't happen on Opensim with the patch I submitted
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya really you just need to experiment with the #'s until you get good results
[11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Apparently it's caused by all avatar angles being sent to the viewer. Somehow, the viewer doesn't like that
[11:18] Mircea Kitsune: And cutting And setting X and Y to 0 in virtual avatar rotation fixes the problem
[11:18] Mircea Kitsune: Question is if it breaks anything else
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I do see an interesting effect if I try and rotate my pov over synergy
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: camera goes a little crazy but that is also probably unrelated
[11:19] Mircea Kitsune: Justing: Is the camera dropping in your chest when you look up or down, and bouncing around as you rotate view?
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: a synergy artifact rather than anything else
[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: synergy + 3D = pain
[11:19] Richardus Raymaker: ha, hi justin
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if I just try and rotate around my avatar the camera zooms right out and rotates wildly
[11:19] Mircea Kitsune: No, that sounds like the same issue
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats a problem only with opensim
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its because of our capsule i think
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: you can get synergy to work in 3d apps by locking it to the screen you are on
[11:20] Vivian Klees: ode it will bounce in mouse vies but not on bullet
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: its a hidden setting
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not the same as the SL capsule
[11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Sinergy is a viewer? Is it based on official Linden viewer?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i always have trouble trying to use avatar as the cam pivot poiint
[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: itneresting, thanks
[11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Camera jumps around (trying to confirm the bug better so I'm asking)?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it can go wildy crazy trying to cam on the avatar
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yopu mean with synergy? I don't experience that issue if the viewer is on the same machine as the synergy server
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: no with anything
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not Synergy its an opensim bug or something
[11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Yes. That's a problem in Opensim.
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: cause it does not happen in SL
[11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Correct
[11:21] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea synergy is a remote mouse/keyboard utility
[11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, sorry about that. Yes its unrelated to that
[11:21] Freaky.Tech ah that thing one mouse / keyboard but several computers controlled with it
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hold on, you're saying that camera climbs and drops in opensim if using mouselook?
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: try camming on your head
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it usually works on body
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but on head it goes nuts
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm camming on head now and it's fine
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: but you mean outsidemouselook?
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: this was external cam
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not doing it for me at the moment either
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but ive experienced it quite a bit in the past
[11:22] Mircea Kitsune: It affects only normal mouselook mode
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: i cant create it
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the mouselook cam issue is something else
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: micrea: maybe you could post a vid on youtube?
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: you can not sit on child prims
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: that would help us understand exactly what you mean
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you do mouselook goes to root prim
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it only works correctly if avatar sits on root prim
[11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: It's because Opensim sends all camera angles to the viewer. It seems the viewer only needs or wants the Z rotation of the avatar, and X and Y should be 0
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: child prims is pain yes. hope thats fixt with 0.8
[11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: I don't have good screen capturing software and I'm not sure if I can
[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think it uses them all when flying in mouselook
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i think its the same problem if your avatar is on a vehicle and sitting on child prim
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: images or video
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: your avatar jumps wildly and camera goes nutso
[11:23] Freaky.Tech Mircea there is Gregion and a few others for that
[11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: The problem you described though is the same one I'm getting. It's not related to sinergy
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its like the viewer is fighting between avatar position and linkset root position
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: and it jumps back and forth crazily
[11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Images make less sense, since it's a movement issue
[11:24] Mircea Kitsune: I'll see if I can take a screenshot though
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: make a youtube video
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats the best way to show it
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i could certainly make some videos highlighting it
[11:25] Mircea Kitsune: Wait, I think I can take a screenshot
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i could probably demo the moving object problem
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: let me try
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: man, where do they hide mouselook on firestorm....
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if this will work or not
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: type M
[11:25] Freaky.Tech just with the scroll wheel go zoom in and just goes in anyways
[11:25] dan banner: hit escape and scroll the mouse in
[11:25] Mircea Kitsune: Press M, or scroll mouse wheel forth
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: no scrollwheel, using touchpad
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: and m just goes into chat
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: hmm no must only do it on scripted vehicle
[11:26] Vivian Klees: Neb's Screen recorder
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I have my viewer set to put typing in to chat automatically too.
[11:26] Freaky.Tech just use the right side of touchpad most have it as a scroll slide there
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: whats good recording software for linux btw ?
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: vlc maby ?
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i use ffmpeg
[11:26] Mircea Kitsune: Done...
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, recordmydesktop
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: and a command line script
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats what Vivian pasted above
[11:27] Vivian Klees: it is
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: X11Grab is the method
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: ok. ill ask later . if am get sofar that i have linux desktop
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: ah interesting. Are we talking about a slight movement of the camera in the up/down direction one is facing?
[11:27] Mircea Kitsune: 1 sec, processing screenshot
[11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Shows how in mouselook, the camera is located right abbove my back as I look fully up
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: if I point head down the camera moves forward slightly. If up then it moves back
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, RecordMyDesktop is the program I used and it worked ok for me. I haven't used it often.
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: thats for windows lol
[11:28] Mircea Kitsune: That screenshot is from mouselook
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: thats the non-root sit
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i really really hate that problem
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: thats why this big moon couch is not linked
[11:28] Dahlia Trimble: justin, make sure your camera isnt colliding
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I rarely run Windows. I use that program in Linux.
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: because otherwise it really really sucks
[11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: But why's it also happen when not sitting on anything?
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh your not sitting in that shot?
[11:28] dan banner: sits are seriously screwed up esp is the child and root are any distance apart
[11:28] Mircea Kitsune: No. Standing
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I don't think it should be in mouselook?
[11:28] Mircea Kitsune: It happens both when sitting, standing, or flying
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: yeah, I dont' see anything like that
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: justin, dont know :)
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya that is odd
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: all viewers do it for you?
[11:29] dan banner: whats the url of this screen shot?
[11:29] Mircea Kitsune: It's strange then. I wonder why others don't get it
[11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, all viewers I tried over the years
[11:29] Mircea Kitsune: The issue seems to have always existed
[11:30] dan banner: ya i dont get that either
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: acutlaly maybe I do see it, I just wasn't pointing my camera right down and up
[11:30] dan banner: ever
[11:30] dan banner:
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya that is odd I don't really recall seeing that before
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: let me try again
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: there's definitely mvmt of the camera up and down at those extremes
[11:30] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yes. Try going in mouselook, looking straight forward (to make sure everything's fine initially), then suddenly look fully up or down
[11:30] Vivian Klees: grr can't open links in latest singularity
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya its a bit swirly looking straight up
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont see my own avatar
[11:31] dan banner: vivian: fs 64bit is nice
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: happens also if you don't have av in mouselook but a little harder to realize
[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: not found a 64bit linux version of FS
[11:31] Vivian Klees: you know my feelings of opensim fs
[11:31] dan banner: its for windows rich
[11:31] Mircea Kitsune: yes. Having avatar in mouselook makes it more obvious, since you can see the camera falling in your arms
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: ok, I will try again with your patch and see if that fixes when I can. But the actual code chagne might have to end up being different, I don't know yet
[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: justin, seems to collide for me in mouselook
[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: there 64bit is useless because it dont support mesh physics and pathfinding etc.
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: and on windows 64bit is worse then 32bit with framerate
[11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Sure, that line of code can be moved anywhere appropriate
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: on linux its opposite
[11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Idea is that X and Y need to be 0 for avatar rotation, after calculating movement
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, I'm running Alpha version of Singularity. Clicking links asks me if I want to open link in external browser. If I say yes, my browser opens with the link. I set Singularity to use external browser.
[11:32] Mircea Kitsune: If anyone missed the link when I posted it first,
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I woyuld need to check that nothing else is expecting to be able to see that data, or would expect it in the future for a legitimate reason
[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I think all 3 camera axes are important
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: especially when flying in mouselook
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: i think dalhia right. you cant work with only Z
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: so an alt solution may be to discard it before sending data to the viewer rather than in SP.Rotation itself
[11:33] Mircea Kitsune: The problem doesn't happen on the Linden grid, and removing the first 2 axes from avatar angles fix the problem. So logically, I'm tempted to think the main grid does the same as my proposed patch
[11:33] Mircea Kitsune: But I could be wrong
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: as example. camera position from prim ?
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: that would seem logical to me
[11:33] Mircea Kitsune: I tried mouselook when sitting on a prin in any rotation also. Doesn't break it
[11:34] Mircea Kitsune: Camera is always positioned properly with my patch. Even if avatar sits on an upside-down chair
[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: if you only have z then you cant control elevation in mouselook while flying
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: even if not sitting on root prim?
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: im surpised the camera doesnt freak out anymore when I cam on myself
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: it used to go absolutely nuts on me
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yes. I tried creating a sphere, sitting on it, rotating it randomly, and going in mouselook. View position and angle was fine
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: a child prim sphere?
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: That I don't think I tested yet
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Testing now might not help, my patch needs to be applied
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: on root prim it is fine
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: right, there's a long standing issue where mouselook position is incorrect if you sit on a child prim
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya if i sit on this prim and go into mouselook my camera jumps over to root
[11:36] Mircea Kitsune: I think that's unrelated to this issue
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: yes. think going back to at least 2008
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik, it;'s because we send child prim info to the viewer where it's actually expecting an offset from the root prim
[11:37] Freaky.Tech when I encountered those odd angles, it looks a lot like that
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but fixing that is going to be a bit of work, assuming that is the issue (I haven't reproduced it)
[11:37] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: But to be sure. If you go in mouselook and look fully up or down, you can confirm the camera falls, right? When standing I mean, not just when sitting (it happens in all cases)
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it was not falling for me
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but it was kind of swirling around
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: let me leave it there for a minute
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it does drop for me
[11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, it swirls around too
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: and noticeably rises when you look up again
[11:38] Mircea Kitsune: That's another effect
[11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Justin, yes
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its not moving at all now
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: aha. now i see it to
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't get any rotation, but maybe that's just me right now
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: rock solid still
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: not falling or swirling
[11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Also: If you look halfway up or down and turn around, you can see the camera pushing back and forth too
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: you're looking up?
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: never seen this before
[11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Viewers probably translate full avatar rotations in some weird way
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya im looking straight up at ceiling
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: what about look down?
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: best to see when you look down
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: right down to vertical
[11:39] Freaky.Tech a little zoom in zoom out I see but remains steady at angle
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: down looks like its way to down
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: like im laying on the floor almost
[11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Did the camera lower itself as you looked down?
[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea perhaps you could discuss this with some viewer devs?
[11:39] dan banner: i see slight reposition of the camera but nothing i would call uncomfortable
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that's the kind of thing mircea is talking about
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: almost feels like my avatar lays down when i look down
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: For me it did lower the camera
[11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Try looking straight forward, then instantly down
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but up i dont get that same sensation
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its like im laying on floor
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you have av on in mouselook?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i do
[11:40] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, it's the same issue then
[11:40] Freaky.Tech looks like zoom control of cam gets some difference on mouse look
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: actually ya when i look down from up i notice it
[11:40] dan banner: ya slight repositioning
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but just looking up i dont notice it and I also do not see my own avatar like in the screenshot Mircea showed
[11:40] dan banner: same here neb
[11:40] Mircea Kitsune: For me it happens both when looking up or down. The camera lowers itself
[11:40] dan banner: only if i look stright down
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: for my feelinbg the cam drops at leats 0.5 down when i look in mouselook to the floor
[11:40] Dahlia Trimble: isnt seeing your avatar in mouselook a viewer preference setting?
[11:41] dan banner: and i never see my avatar
[11:41] Freaky.Tech rich that is what I noticed oo
[11:41] Mircea Kitsune: Yes. It helps notice this problem better
[11:41] dan banner: dahlia: ya its a setting but not by default
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: and thats without avatar enabled in mouselook
[11:41] Freaky.Tech but never had my avi shown
[11:41] Mircea Kitsune: Yes you must manually enable it
[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: which viewre are you using?
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: No, you dont nmeed to enable it
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: camera drops without to
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: well, now I can repro it I can retry the patch, though that may not be until fri
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: overloaded as usual
[11:42] Freaky.Tech zoom in, out changes without shown avatar
[11:42] Robert Wood21: hello guys
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: and if it works think about whether that's the best appraoch to fix this
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. Just glad others could confirm it so it's a known issue, and others might be onto it
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: I know little about C# and the Opensim code, but luckily found a way to make my version of the vix
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: **fix
[11:42] dan banner:
[11:42] Robert Wood21: hi dan
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: yeah, thanks for looking at that directly
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: NP
[11:43] Mircea Kitsune: There was a second problem also... much more minor
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: I'd prefer to make sure one can still fly in muoselook and control elevation with the mouse before commiting the patch
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya we have a bunch of these issues like this that would be really nice to knock out
[11:43] Mircea Kitsune:
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: the current patch is in mantis 3274 if you want to test
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: justin, no I dont have time
[11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Description: If in 3rd person view, you click-drag your avatar, and look fully up or down, the avatar won't walk forward properly
[11:43] dan banner: ya i like that bug
[11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Unrelated to the issue with the camera jumping BTW, this is a second issue I found and tried to fix
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: this is another one I could not repro but others can?
[11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Yes
[11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Anyone can test it now: Don't be in mouselook. Click and hold the left mouse button over your avatar, so you can look around. Now look down into the floor and press forward. The avatar's movement speed is slower
[11:44] dan banner: thats so you can walk to the edge of things w/o falling off
[11:45] Mircea Kitsune: dan: No, it's unwanted functionality. Main grid doesn't do it.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya we all love that bug Mircea
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we have slow walk parties
[11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Years ago, this happened in mouselook too. I fixed the bug there though, but it wasn't fixed for 3rd person view
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:45] dan banner: sl needs to add that
[11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Well, this one could be considered intended functionality on Opensim. Although I find it sort of wrong
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: Nah SL have more funny ones :OL
[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: when I look down and move forward my camera snaps back
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Either way it's happening due to a bug. There was already a function to check left clicking, and it didn't work
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: I have a patch which removes it, the checks were useless
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I see it now
[11:46] Freaky.Tech I guess every grid needs a few oddities to be interesting ;)
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Personally I think it should be fixed. It's more correct that way, this is unintended functionality
[11:46] dan banner: i would be disappointed to see the slow walk removed/fixed
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Well, yeah. But bugs do need to be fixed :)
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: the commit which added that says that it was added to fix crouch-slide
[11:47] Freaky.Tech why not make it an configurable option?
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: from mantis 3241
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: dahlia don't use alt cam
[11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yeah, it seems to intersect with another code. Someone should test if it re-introduces crouch sliding
[11:47] Mircea Kitsune: It might not
[11:47] Mircea Kitsune: But if it does, another fix is needed
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: just left click on avatar and go up above look straight down
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: then you can walk
[11:48] dan banner: lets fix sits on child prims in vehicles and other linked objects
[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: alt cam ? thats much used also ctrl-alt cam
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya i would much rather see that stuck fixed first
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there is another problem too with child prim sitting
[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: most use ctrl+alt to cam
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian is moon walking. :)
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if the prims are spaced far apart you always stand up at root
[11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, the two are completely unrelated issues. The camera jumping and the walking into the floor I mean.
[11:49] dan banner: like when i stand from sitting on a linkset and get ejected 90m away
[11:49] dan banner: THATS a bug
[11:49] Mircea Kitsune: True too. Didn't look into that one
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: see
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: watch me
[11:49] Mircea Kitsune: Oh
[11:49] Mircea Kitsune: You stand up at another location
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you stand up next too root prim
[11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Ouch... obvious bug indeed
[11:50] dan banner: ya by the root
[11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah I'm totally seeing it
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but the velocity of your movement seems to carry
[11:50] dan banner: depending on the rotation of the root prim you can get pounded 60m underground
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, whoever fixes that will probably get a statue in osgrid ;)
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so you dont land exactly at root
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you kind of get slungshot
[11:50] dan banner: bigger the distance the farther you get shot
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: thats why the moon couch isnt linked
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its bad
[11:51] dan banner: and the jittery passengers in vehicles
[11:51] dan banner: that needs fixed too
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suspect thats the same issue
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: as the mouselook on non-root
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: that only happens on child prims also
[11:51] Freaky.Tech that looks awkward on some of the moving objects when they move faster
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: likely a similar if not same issue
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: yup. bad to. also in mouselook. your eating gravel from the railtrack then
[11:52] dan banner: lol
[11:52] dan banner: yup
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: why you need to make cars sit you on root prim
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: hence the giant red box on my racer kits
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that disappears when you sit
[11:52] dan banner: which means passengers are on child prims
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that is only so you dont sit on other prims
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: but hard if you sit with more people
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ha, bet you wish I worked on this instead of stopping people creatie LSL with the wrong number of args ;)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: As a scripter, I like to see fixes to the parser.
[11:53] Freaky.Tech looks like a lot of wrong doings is easy to find ;)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across a nasty parser issue in the past 3 days.
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: bad LSL is harder to fix then a bad sitting avatar
[11:54] Mircea Kitsune: LSL seems to be working fine. ALthough I'm still seeing some important functions which are marked as not implemented on the wiki still
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yeah, parser issues are a pain
[11:54] Mircea Kitsune: Only a few ones... don't remember by memory which I last noticed
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are a few not implemented things
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, LSL is ok for the most part but there are still some nasty issues in it.
[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: bad LSL is what SL is all about :)
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: did the MOAP LSL stuff ever get implemented?
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: anyone know?
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: the media controls
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm only really working on the LSL args stuff because I got bit by it myself whilst trying to scirpt something quickly....
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: Didn't that happen originally?
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, yeah. I've seen so many bad scripts from SL. I usually (mostly) rewrite them.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I don't remember I think some worked there were others that didnt I don't recall now Id have to look and try them again
[11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... I was wondering if anyone can confirm the new material settings are implemented properly in Opensim. As in being persisted correctly in region database.
[11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Users with latest viewer probably know you can have normalmaps and glossy maps and stuff now
[11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Great feature IMO :)
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, if you want another LSL issue to fix while you are working on the parser, I can add to your todo list
[11:55] dan banner: yes mircea if you enable the materialdemomodule
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: there is an OpenSim.ini setting needs to be added to activate it
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its not activated by default yet
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: though I think we should soon
[11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Also if LSL functions to edit those work
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: not really ;) I've looked at some issues but they are a real pain to fix
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: since most TPVs support it now
[11:56] dan banner: its in osgrid ini
[11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Oh? There's a separate module for them?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia? what do you think?
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it would probably be better if I looked at some of these other laongstanding issues first, like this child prim sit problem
[11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Why so? Do they need a special system to be stored?
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew. if you can find the end of the list...
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, the issue I ran across is something not liked by OS. It triggers a code exception which then spews red text in to the inworld debug console.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia did most of the material work thats in Core now
[11:56] Dahlia Trimble: defaulting materials?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:57] dan banner: mircea: add [MaterialsDemoModule] to your ini
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: I think we should wait a bit
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: think were ready for that yet?
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ok, whats the reasoning for waiting?
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: Im not convinced materials editing is working properly
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: good reason
[11:57] Mircea Kitsune: I can add it. Was just curious why they need a separate module to be supported.
[11:57] dan banner: ive been using [MaterialsDemoModule] since it was added to core
[11:57] Freaky.Tech seems like something I have to enable in the near time to play around with
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: want to wait for more viewers to release it
[11:57] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, ok
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: if there is anything we can test to help that move forward let us know for sure
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: and see if we get bug reports
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: still learning aboiut materials. then i hope to use/test it in sl.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I like working on parsers but the one in OS is strange. I haven't made sense out of how it works.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya Singularity alpha has support now
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm os i mena
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua has support
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i cant speak for Firestorm
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you've looked at the code in opensim-libs?
[11:58] Freaky.Tech Firestorm Beta too
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: but I think I might take it out of "demo" status
[11:58] dan banner: so does firestorm alpha/beta
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:58] dan banner: and kokua
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: good so were close then
[11:58] Mircea Kitsune: Not much to learn. Latest viewers just add a few new slots which let you choose a normal map or reflection map
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: firestorm have materials. the latest beta
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: I think the Singularity release can view them
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, no
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear normal maps is what people use nowadays rather than piling on the prims
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but not set them
[11:58] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, normal maps are a great thing. And finally they're in SL too now
[11:59] Mircea Kitsune: Also, this finally lets us have reflections on transparent prims
[11:59] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, the UI is simple but the protocol is quite complex and convoluted
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that's where the parser/lexer generator is. What you see in opensim itsel fis just the tightly packed result it spits out
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: the specular maps are awesome too
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: Lots to learn about materials. in most cases i not so much extra. it only add more load
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: there's also a real nasty gotcha with parser generatio nwhich I haven't had time to get to the bottom of
[11:59] Mircea Kitsune: As many probably know, if you set a primitive to be transparent but also enable shiny, it doesn't work. A face must be fully opaque for reflections to work on it. Materials offer a way around that now
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. I'll take a look.
[11:59] Mircea Kitsune: So glass can reflect
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, is there a mantis for that?
[12:00] dan banner: if you need a program to make normal/specular maps
[12:00] Freaky.Tech sounds something for a nice office building with transparency on the windows ;)
[12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Transparency + reflections
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: no. I'll try and open one to recrod the issue and the current hack fix
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks is offline.
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: essentially, one has to change a 1 to 0 in the penutlimate csv of the parser table
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks is online.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: crashed my viewer again
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: What was that URL for normal maps?
[12:02] dan banner:
[12:02] dan banner: you can do it in blender too but this is easy
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to hop off. Thanks for the discussion, folks
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:02] Mircea Kitsune: Later :)
[12:02] logger sewell: tc Justin
[12:02] Dahlia Trimble: me too. bye all :)
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I'll spam the mantis system soon
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I look forward to it :)
[12:02] Freaky.Tech bye Dahlia
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I have at least 6 (possibly 8) items for it
[12:03] logger sewell: and saying that i need to scoot as well tc all
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves
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