Chat log from the meeting on 2013-02-19

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[11:02] Vivian Klees: walk along on a mega prim like this with the viewer recorder walking then play it back watch what it does
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[11:02] dan banner: ahh
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[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, justin
[11:01] Hiro Protagonist is online.
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[11:02] dan banner: hi justin
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
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[11:02] Teravus Ousley: Hellow Justincc
[11:03] dan banner: hi everyone
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[11:02] Vivian Klees: Big Buck in the house
[11:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hello
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[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, but he isn't dressed as a Bunny. :-)
[11:03] dan banner: hey justin
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[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, hello nebadon
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone changed the stairs.
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[11:03] dan banner: i'm wearing my big buck fan shirt
[11:03] Sarah Kline: hi Dan, Justin
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[11:03] Sarah Kline: hi
 
[11:03] dan banner: hi sarah
 
[11:03] dan banner: hi sarah
[11:04] logger sewell: Hey all
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[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... so you are, dan.
[11:04] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi
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[11:04] Vivian Klees: I showed my friends the video, they said his dance was better than Psy's
[11:05] Tiffany Magic: Hello everyone
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[11:05] Teravus Ousley was just commenting on how it was a really quiet tuesday
[11:05] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hello
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[11:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey wonders why Andrew is doing the duck walk
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[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... 0.7.6 (dev) :-)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go back to an older (or at least different) viewer. Singularity doesn't work well in Linux
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[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: It is this viewer. The walk animation sucks.
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[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it does seem pretty quiet
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I may just go back to Imprudence until I can find a decent viewer for Linux.
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[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: which is what I need, quite frankly
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, since neb isn't around today, is there anything that anybody wants to talk about in particular?
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[11:06] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I guess not!
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[11:06] dan banner: justin, i changed lbsa to co-op and that user has not ended up being a ghost
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey grins
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[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ah, interesting!
[11:08] Jak Daniels: Great to see the new release out, thanks Justin and everyone for the hard work
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[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: co-op?
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Does someone want to say anything about the release of 075?
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[11:07] dan banner: its a wait and see tho
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I think 075 should be a pretty good release - or at least no major issues so far :)
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[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: and I think some people ran the release candidates this time, which is nice
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[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: there's also a patch from oren that I need to look on that might touch on this issue
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: 074 was supposed to be good but I had to downgrade to 073 due to issues. :-)
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[11:07] Teravus Ousley: script abort -> script time coop
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: well, they're all suppoed to be good :)
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[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: though I personally still think it's a script abort issue
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Only just set up for testing 075 but not done much testing yet.
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[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: could be combo though
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: but you know, complex alpha software and all that
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[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah
[11:10] dan banner: justin: even though there are significantly less "false" ghosted avatars, trying to remove them with or without using --force causes the sim to hang and it hangs so even kill -3 cant create a dump
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[11:08] dan banner: i did notice something else tho
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yup.
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[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to give avatars their own app domains
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: yes - I think soon I will ask you to try the co-op script termination flag
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[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, it would be good to have that as an option
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm fairly sure it is stable now but I will probably still wait a couple of weeks to be sure
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[11:08] dan banner: when ghosted, trying to teleport the avatar or kick the avatar both result in locking the console
[11:11] dan banner: ok
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[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: still?
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not actually an issue to go back - if it's enabled you can switch if off again
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[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: with co-op termination enabled?
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Are there any ini changes in 075?
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[11:09] dan banner: i havent seen it with coop
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but switching on does requires a manual recompiling of scripts (by either using the DeleteScriptsonStartup switch forf a single time or by clearing the scriptengines dir)
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[11:09] dan banner: yet
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I don't know
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[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: did you clean out the script directory when you turned co-op on?
[11:13] dan banner: currently there is only 1 user that seems to occasionally have a bad teleport resulting in a ghosted avatar, and when they try to relog the sim cannot remove the ghost on its own so there is no way for them to enter until the sim is restarted
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[11:09] dan banner: just saying, its not the kick user
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure there must be additions
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[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: both those commands will end up using the same code to remove the current avatar from the scene
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: k, np. I'll run a diff on the default/sample ini files
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[11:09] dan banner: right
[11:13] Teravus Ousley is online.
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[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: just to confirm, you cleared out the existing scripts?
[11:14] dan banner: i see "trying to remove presence" errors and that never happens
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[11:10] dan banner: everything has been running well at lbsa
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know if the avatar in question has a lot of scripted attachments?
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[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I only emphasize this because if one doesn't, one still uses scripts compiled to thread abort
[11:15] dan banner: they do, but not anything unusual or any more excessive than other users
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[11:10] dan banner: no i recompiled them
[11:15] dan banner: they do use wifi
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[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ok, great.
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ok. I would want to try co-op script termination first before considering other issues
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[11:10] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[11:15] Mic Bowman is online.
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[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:15] dan banner: which i suspect is probably the reason they have trouble
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[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: if it does happen again, a vm thread dump would be much appreciated
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but nothing should be able to hang the simulator
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[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: everytime we do a plaza update
[11:16] dan banner: correct
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[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the dlls get purged
[11:16] dan banner: which is whats happening
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[11:10] dan banner: sure justin
[11:16] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: is it something about them being in the UserManagementModule?
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[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully this time it would show properly if there's a deadlock
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: capital punishment.. simulator hangings
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[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so just updated will force that
[11:16] dan banner: lol
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[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, great to know
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: what makes you say that?
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[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we do save states though
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
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[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's fine
[11:17] dan banner: normally logging in to the same sim again will successfully remove the first login
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[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's only the compiled DLLS that need to be purged
[11:17] Fearghus McMahon: hi everybody
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[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i figured it was safer to purge the dlls every update
[11:17] Vivian Klees: .
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: takes a lot longer for that initial startup
[11:18] dan banner: but that doesnt happen if they are ghosted
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but avoids wierd issues
[11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: -
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[11:12] logger sewell: Hi all made it
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: well, on the last analysis the thread dump contained no locks
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[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory there should normally be no wierd issues
[11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: have you looked at the Presence table for them?
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hello Logger
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: this isn't the issue really
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right, but we are constantly testing
[11:19] dan banner: blue: they still remain in presence
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[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but I can imagine that something interesting might sometimes occur, esp. with dev code
[11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: taking them from there doesn't help?
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[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: the immediate issue is that the force kick fails with behaviour that suggests vm instability
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt want our bug reports to be clouded by issues that sneak in
[11:19] dan banner: it hangs even without --force
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[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that could be avoided
[11:19] dan banner: if they are ghosted
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[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, absolutely
[11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: do you see their avatar?
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[11:13] Teravus Ousley: FYI, I swapped out the WebGL test page with a video.. since I'm not going to be here for a week :) http://teravus.wmcv.com/googletester/vstest/index.html ---> the page has the test page linked.. but as it says, no guarantee if the instance will be available while I'm away.
[11:20] dan banner: yes
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[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hi logger, hi robert
[11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: and they're in show users?
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[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert, glad you made it :)
[11:21] dan banner: yes
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[11:13] Sarah Kline: HI Robert
[11:21] dan banner: and on the console
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[11:13] dan banner: hey robert
[11:21] dan banner: and it hangs in a way that it hangs kill -3
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[11:13] Robert Adams: hello all
[11:22] dan banner: so the dump never finishes
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[11:13] logger sewell: HI Robert
[11:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: any idea what hangs their TP?
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[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: heh
[11:22] dan banner: i really dont know but i see it happen mostly with one particular avatar
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[11:13] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: there is an option to add some extra debugging info to the teleports
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[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I always forget about the Bullet testing that happens before this meeting.
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: this isn't about that
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[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's an impressive view of the region in webgl
[11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I know what your're saying jcc
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[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to make a video for you as soon as I could Teravus
[11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it should recover w/o crashing
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[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: busy day for me today though
[11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: but, I'm thinking about where the object is hung
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[11:14] Teravus Ousley: heh, no worries.
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: the object is hung?
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[11:14] Robert Adams: the bullet office hours didn't happen today... I had other commitments... but next week for sure
[11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: and at what point it becomes detached
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[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: great
[11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: object as in instance of the ScenePresence
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[11:15] Teravus Ousley visited and smashed the chain links .. but that was it.
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean by detached?
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[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:25] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the point that it fails
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[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, sounds good although I'll probably miss next weeks. :-)
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: The initial point of failure is probably on a teleport out when script threads are aborted
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[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i have a wierd issue with chains on my serer
[11:25] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: where the sim looses the user
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[11:15] Robert Adams: LOL
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: one of these aborts leaves the vm unstable such that the old SP does not get removed
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[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: server*
[11:26] dan banner: im not really sure blue, but either way the sim and or admin should be able to remove the ghosted avatar
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[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: they move really slow for some reason
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: when a kick is attempted the simulator hangs because of threads waiting on locks which no other thread holds
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[11:15] Joe Radik: redvet-77
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I have found these issues to be caused by thread aborting, hence the co-op script terminatio nwork
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[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not sure what is up with that
[11:26] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok
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[11:15] Robert Adams: I need to add a special RLV mode so chains won't be as much of a problem for you :)
[11:26] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: so, they are outbound?
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[11:16] Sarah Kline: )
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: what are outbound?
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[11:16] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:26] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the failed teleports
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[11:16] Teravus Ousley: well, the black hole will smash the chain links to bits.. :)
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: the user?
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[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya its ok here
[11:27] dan banner: no blue
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[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: odd
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: no, they are inbound but that is not the point of failure
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[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: your server is windows?
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: or at least, not the primary failure
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: nno
[11:27] dan banner: they teleport in, baked texture (usually) gets sent, everyone sees them and then they crash
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Linux
[11:27] dan banner: but the avatar remains
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: same as this box
[11:28] dan banner: and 'show connections' has them in the list
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0.3
[11:28] dan banner: only it shows "false"
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[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mono 3.0.3 still working out fine?
[11:28] dan banner: under active
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:28] dan banner: and from that point there is no way to remove the avatar
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[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: working great
[11:28] dan banner: unless you restart the sim
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[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: the bells, the bells
[11:28] Sarah Kline: I've seen that grey ghost in sky
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[11:18] Sarah Kline: LOL
[11:29] Vivian Klees: some times a search will reveal they might be in another part of the grid
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[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: bells? I don't hear any bells.
[11:29] UUID Speaker: Alex Kokopipis: d1f27920-8df8-4b07-90fd-226ffb268d8a
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[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if justin has been working so hard that he is starting to hallucinate
[11:29] dan banner: even if the user attempts to relog, they cannot get in because the sim cant remove existing presence
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[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ;-)
[11:29] Sarah Kline: ah ok not same thing k
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[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a rare species of spinally dformed rabbit
[11:29] dan banner: yes they can relog elsewhere
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[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its tinitus
[11:30] dan banner: but not to the sim with the ghost
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[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:30] logger sewell: Hi Robert
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[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:30] dan banner: so 30 people make it and one gets ghosted, the one with the ghost is SOL until the sim is restarted
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[11:19] Teravus Ousley: It's 5 people replacing all of your roof shingles
[11:31] Robert Adams: hi all
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[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a pounding noise not a ringing one.
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: hi robert
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[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i need to check the mesh stairs
[11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: hello
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[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: someone told me that was working now in bullet
[11:31] dan banner: the sim cant remove them, kick user (with or without --force) cant
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[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hoild on
[11:32] Vivian Klees: the real fix is if they relog back into the same region as the ghost?
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[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they are phantom at moment
[11:32] dan banner: the latter hanging the sim
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[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:32] dan banner: well the console i should say
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[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, mesh stairs. I can't see mesh objects. I've returned to using Imprudence on my laptop as I was having problems using other viewers.
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: the real fix is to try co-op script termination
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[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: still tough
[11:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
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[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: even going up the ramp seems tough
[11:32] dan banner: no more region# prompt
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[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: what is the spacing between treads on the stairs?
[11:32] Teravus Ousley suspects that the failure might cause stuck child agents
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its 0.36m
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: you can't relog to the ghost region if the simulator has reached this state where locks are unavailable despite no thread holding them
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: the stair spacing
[11:32] Tiffany Magic: dan.... are you having this issue with 7.5 running?
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[11:24] Robert Adams: and would this work in SL?
[11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Yes, are they listed as child or root agents?
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not sure honestly
[11:33] Teravus Ousley: .. crash in a region.. then relog to a nearby region and the original sim is invisible
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive never uploaded stairs in SL
[11:33] dan banner: no tiff i am only using dev builds
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[11:24] Robert Adams: like you visit there all the time :)
[11:33] Tiffany Magic: Ok, thanks, dan.
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[11:24] dan banner: seems any height stairs work in sl
[11:34] dan banner: root bluewall
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you
[11:34] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok
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[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably work with regular prims
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: did you also try increasing the existing thread abort timeout?
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[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, not true unless you use a ramp
[11:35] dan banner: i can
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[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the spacing was .362
[11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Justin, how do you enable co-op script termination
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[11:25] Robert Adams: I'll play with that
[11:35] dan banner: good question
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[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That is a bit on the high side.
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: set ScriptStopStrategy = co-op in [XEngine]
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[11:25] dan banner: andrew: its a whole lot higher there than opensim
[11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok, thanks
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[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I find a spacing of .25 seems to work better. Not sure what the upper limit is before you start having problems climbing a set of stairs.
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble is online.
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[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: then you have to restart the region with either DeleteScriptsOnStartup = true for one restart or you wipe the bin/ScriptEngines/<region-id./*.dll* manually
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[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it works with reg prims
[11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok
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[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: same spacing
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: alternatively, you could try setting WaitForEventCompletionOnScriptStop = 5000 instead of the default 1000
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[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: oh.
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: and see if that has an impact, though it might not
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[11:26] dan banner: i know in ODE its also directional...
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, this is assuming I'm right about the cause. If not, the that's bad because it's some other failure
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[11:26] dan banner: spin that around nebadon
[11:37] dan banner: okay i'll change that
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[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: .25m is actually closer to the virtual equivalent of real stairs
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: from the evidence I've seen so far, this is no a straightforward (!) deadlock issue
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[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: still make it up
[11:37] Dahlia Trimble: hi
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[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its not super smooth
[11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Dahlia
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[11:27] dan banner: ya
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hello dahlia
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[11:27] dan banner: nice
[11:37] Teravus Ousley: Hello Dahlia
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[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but it goes up
[11:37] logger sewell: Hi Dahlia
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[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: on the mesh stairs its like you hit a wall
[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: who broke the stairs?
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[11:28] Robert Adams: I use a different stair climbing mechanism that ODE
[11:38] Teravus Ousley ran through the tests in resharper and a bunch of them failed...
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[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya in ODE
[11:38] Teravus Ousley is noting that he ran though all of the tests.....
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[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: you are lucky to walk up 0.20 prims
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I was wondering the same thing
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[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a good job I've largely overcome my screen-induced motion sickness
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: seem to work, or be ignored on the ci
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[11:28] Robert Adams: ODE relies on the rounded bottom of the avatar capsule -- that is why some of that stuff about capsule tilt
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: can't say that terribly surprises me
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[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is basically ramps or nothing
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: you mean you ran the regressio ntests?
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[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even ramps have trouble in ODE
[11:39] Robert Adams: that would be me... stairs are different in BulletSim
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[11:29] dan banner: heh
[11:39] Teravus Ousley nods
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[11:29] Robert Adams: I look for collisions close to the avatar's feet and then move the avatar up to try and get over the barrier
[11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we're on Bulletsim ?
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[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: like dan said, dpending on their rotation / orientation to the sim
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: what kind of thing failed?
+
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: how much do you move them up, Robert?
[11:39] Robert Adams: I believe so
+
[11:29] Robert Adams: that could be some problem with meshes, though
[11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: nice
+
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[11:40] Teravus Ousley has to run them again to pull up which ones failed.
+
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: makes sense
[11:40] Robert Adams: Wright plaza has been running BulletSim for about a week
+
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: cause you see if i put the ramp in the stairs its fine
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I must admit, I'm surprised since they are logic tests
+
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even if i don't make it phantom
[11:41] Sarah Kline: I have noticed an increase in speed as i fly around...it feels better
+
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so its not artifacts
[11:41] Tiffany Magic: May I ask how Bullet treats stairs differently, Robert?
+
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no odd invisible triangles or something
[11:42] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: afk for a few
+
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: the only problem I have with ramps is that people skip adding a guard rail and I sometimes fall off the stairs before making it to the top.
[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: ya flying is a bit faster
+
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, if treads are no more than 0.25m apart in vertical spacing they should still work.
+
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thats how these were
[11:42] Robert Adams: ODE relies on the curve of the avatar capsule to allow the avatar to push up onto steps
+
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: just like real life
[11:42] Vivian Klees: no it's ODE the way to tell is using the viewer recorder
+
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will unphantom all the stairs and leave ramps for now
[11:43] Robert Adams: BUlletSim tries to sense that the avatar is hitting something near its feet and moves the avatar up to get over the obstacle
+
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to work fine
[11:44] Robert Adams: steps of more than .25m are not supposed to work?
+
[11:31] Robert Adams: there are three configuration parameters. AvatarStepHeight (height looking for collisions under ( default 0.3)
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble files a complaint with OSHA about unsafe stairs...
+
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't recall when i last had trouble with .25m spacing on stairs. I don't use ramps when I make stairs.
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: With ODE I have found that 0.25m works well with stairs. Much more than that and you can't climb them.
+
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it depends Andrew
[11:45] Fearghus McMahon: ? i got to steps of 0.4 with bulletsim
+
[11:31] Robert Adams: AvatarStepForceFactor (multiplier for force to get avatar up (default 2.0)
[11:45] Robert Adams was never sure what the real specs are for stairs
+
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the avatar capsule in ODE never rotates
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Not without an invisible ramp.
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: and its tilted
[11:45] Fearghus McMahon: which i was quite happy about actually
+
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps I got lucky or my avatar is more coordinated. ;-)
[11:45] Teravus Ousley is running them now
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so sometimes your walking like your dragging a board behind you
[11:45] Teravus Ousley: So far.. TestStopOninfiniteJumpLoop failed
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: other times its like your plowing it into the grund in front of you
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: TestStopOnLongCompoundStatementDoWhileLoop failed
+
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i haven't looked at the avatar capsule
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: TestStopOnLongCompoundStatementForLoop failed
+
[11:32] Robert Adams: and AvatarStepApproachFactor (controls how directly one has to approach the step (default 0.6)
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: (message: script did not co-operatively stop)
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: when your plowing it into ground
[11:46] Robert Adams: the steps here are meshes... it's a single prim... those are probably different
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: going up stairs and ramps is difficult
[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: is it a trimesh collider?
+
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: that's on windows I presume?
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes impossible depending on the angle of incline
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: TestStopOnLongCompoundStatementWhileLoop failed...
+
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the same goes for terrain
[11:47] Sarah Kline: those steps have a prim ramp
+
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes going up hills you avatar is floating off the ground
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: yes, on windows
+
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its because your capsule is plowing into the terrain mesh
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: have you treid running them outside of resharper on win?
+
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:47] Robert Adams: yes, Dahlia
+
[11:33] Robert Adams: the step height is the main one... come force is applied up and the avatar is moved up 1/2 the step height... so a step about .2 works well
[11:47] paulie Flomar: the rails on the stairs seem to be phantom here. I ran off the side of the stairs. heh.
+
[11:33] Teravus Ousley: dot product against the face normal.. :)
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: not yet :)
+
[11:35] Robert Adams: I can increase the default if a target step height is about .25
[11:48] Dahlia Trimble: Ya I fell off twice
+
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: woah
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to try - I have to admit I have not yet so maybe there's som faiulre where the pass on mono but not .net
+
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: they
+
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: this is pretty cool. It would be radical if this meeting space were just a bunch of chains extending from the moon down to the land surface
[11:48] Teravus Ousley: The singles pass
+
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: might be a bit stressful on the phys engine though :)
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: huuuh.
+
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:48] Teravus Ousley: the infinite jump and the log fail
+
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: be neat to try something like that
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I fell off once. I was more careful the second time around when I got to the landing half way up
+
[11:37] Vivian Klees: anyone tried to simulate a baseball pitching machine on bullet?
[11:48] Teravus Ousley: .. log/long
+
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Chain seats for everyone
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: that's really odd - the only difference between single and compound is the generation of the c# script text
+
[11:39] Robert Adams: or egg chairs suspended by chains
[11:49] Dahlia Trimble has poor vision
+
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: there is a small timing window in those tests due to the nature of the script engine, but if that is being hit (which I judge very unlikely) it should affect every test in that suite
+
[11:39] Robert Adams: can't get the links too small, though
[11:50] Teravus Ousley: Setting up test scene My Test
+
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens then?
 
+
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: not tried Vivian, that might be tough
===> In Test Method : TestStopOnLongSingleStatementWhileLoop <===
+
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably be somewhat unpredictable
Got chat [Thin Lizzy]
+
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I need to try the axis locking
Script started with message [Thin Lizzy]
+
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: do you have an example script for that Robert?
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: all those tests are for co-operative script termination so they do some jiggery pokery with the script engine to detect the stop
+
[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald is offline.
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's what I expect from some debug I hadn't taken out
+
[11:43] dan banner: .
[11:50] Teravus Ousley: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException
+
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey farts discretely
Number must be either non-negative and less than or equal to Int32.MaxValue or -1.
+
[11:43] Vivian Klees lights a match
Parameter name: millisecondsTimeout
+
[11:43] Teravus Ousley makes a random comment about this video: http://youtu.be/PHSJCMkUa9Y , Why would you do something like that!?
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: what about a compound loop?
+
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: oooh
+
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks prepares to call the fire department
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: could you pastebin the entire failure?
+
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: If I knew that then I would probably be doing it
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Thin Lizzy? Great 70's band. :-)
+
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol omg
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: first thing that popped into my head for some reason
+
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: horrible video haha
[11:52] Teravus Ousley: http://pastebin.com/4FjBxaYU
+
[11:45] dan banner: teravus: lack of common sense?
[11:52] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          6f3dcf5: 2013-02-10 20:00:39 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
+
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ive had like 2 or 3 spikes from those cactus in me
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: look like win doesn't like TimeSpan.MaxValue going to WaitAll
+
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it was excruciating
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: SmartThreadPool is casting (int)TimeSpan.MaxValue.TotalMilliseconds
+
[11:45] Robert Adams: axis logging is not enabled yet... this job thing is distracting me :)
[11:56] Teravus Ousley: 0.o
+
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, looks like we are casting an int64 down to int32
+
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Casting it to int?
+
[11:46] Robert Adams: making chain links too small causes them to jump around and break
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't sound good
+
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i saw a commit said something about experimental axis locking
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: so technically this is a bug in SmartThreadPool, but really we can eaisly get around it by using int.MaxValue totalMilliseconds instead
+
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and assumed it was sorta working
[11:56] Dahlia Trimble: maybe it should declare the parameter an int?
+
[11:46] Robert Adams: I need to scale the collision margins and forces by the size of the object
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but that would stop one being able to useTimeSpan
+
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: no, they would have to cast it themselves?
+
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Teravus, I don't think that person will be doing it again any time soon (if ever)
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess
+
[11:46] Robert Adams: yes... the code is there but turned off.... i'm using a Bullet constraint to lock the axis
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to head out. See you next week.
+
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: 0.o
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: bye
+
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: o.0
[11:58] Teravus Ousley: Take care ANdrew
+
[11:48] Robert Adams: I've added all the bullet constraint types... won't be long before you can set any link in a linkset to be a constraint: hinge, slider, spring, ...
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks waves
+
[11:48] dan banner: nice
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks is offline.
+
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the center of gravity fix gone in to Bullet?
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: basically, I would predict this fails outside of resharper as well, though curious it doesn't on windows. Possible solution will be to substitute a very large TimeSpan in ScriptInstance.Stop() instead of TimeSpan.MaxValue
+
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks rembered something about it from the mailing list or a previous meeting.
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: siorry, curious it doesn't fail on mono I mean
+
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i think I saw some work for center of mass go in
[12:00] Mic Bowman is offline.
+
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if its the final word yet
[12:00] Teravus Ousley nods
+
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll have to check that out sometime. I think that was what made my flying sleigh hard to control. It was off balance.
[12:01] Dahlia Trimble: like int.MaxValue
+
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=fb903ff49089d5fd7a56aa2401528c3e7cf1800c
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe constructing a timespan which equates to those total milliseconds
+
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: this was last thing to go in for it
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I wiould really want to avoid more custom patches on SmartThreadPool to make it accept ints instead
+
[11:51] Robert Adams: another feature that's almost there... not enabled, though
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhh, although actually maybe this is really up in our code
+
[11:51] Robert Adams: it will be user settable when it is done
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: ah ha yes, STP does take ints but we're not exposing them through IScriptWorkItem
+
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: so probably would be better to extend our shim classes to feed an int through to STP
+
[11:51] Robert Adams wonders what people will do with setting center-of-mass outside an object :)
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: an overloaded Wait() method
+
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:05] Teravus Ousley: IScriptWorkItem is riding dirty.
+
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Being able to change cog will be good for sailboats
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: if that's in place could probably just use -1 instead for an infinite timeout
+
[11:53] Teravus Ousley notes that whatever you do.. you don't want your game controls to be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2F3ZWEEbF4 (swearing)
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks Teravus
+
[11:53] Robert Adams: I would like a bunch of OpenSim extensions to be enabled by default.... modInvoke, os function, ...
[12:06] Teravus Ousley: Unit tests for the win
+
[11:53] Robert Adams: OpenSimulator is not SL any more
[12:06] Teravus Ousley: (pun unintended.. for the win-dows)
+
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see anything wrong with enabling them. But it will be a battle to have any OSSL threat level be default
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes :)
+
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol thats funny Teravus
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: I'll probablyi make that change later on today
+
[11:57] Robert Adams: There should be a "UsualPermissions.ini" file that keeps thread level at RediculuslyHigh (or whatever it is now) but has Allows_ for useful but not usually dangerous functions
[12:07] Teravus Ousley: Thanks for your hard work on this
+
[11:58] Robert Adams: I know there is one person out there who thinks nothing should be allowed by default but that is not true for 99% of anybody's regions
[12:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
+
[12:00] Robert Adams: and OpenSim-ness should be enabled by default (os functions, ...) and turnoffable if you want SL compatibility
[12:08] dan banner: yes +10 here too
+
[12:00] Sarah Kline: Maybe if the term Threat was changed people would feel different
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks guys
+
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I agree. but if we are to 'move beyond' ll in that manner than I thikn everybody would have to accept that some non-sl functinos have to be always available
[12:09] Fearghus McMahon: Thanks to all of you developers for the hard work even
+
[12:00] Robert Adams: at least that's what I think
[12:10] dan banner: ttfn
+
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Threat is certainly a paranoid way of putting it
[12:10] Teravus Ousley: have a good day dan
+
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: although tat's not neecessarily inappropirate with a region running other people's code
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I need to get going as well. Thanks for the meeting, folks
+
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well there are quite a few OSSL functions you definately do not want or need on by default
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dan
+
[12:01] Robert Adams: I agree with you there, Nebadon...
[12:10] logger sewell: ok I need to get to work ya'll have a good rest of the day
+
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can have something like Robert said
[12:10] Fearghus McMahon: take care Justin
+
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: have an example file people can rename
[12:10] Sarah Kline: bye
+
[12:02] Robert Adams: I'm not saying any script should be able to do console commands :)
[12:10] Tiffany Magic: Bye everyone
+
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: then you uncomment out a line in Xengine
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey waves
+
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: to enable the ini file
[12:10] Teravus Ousley: ttyl justin :)
+
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I think one day those ini files really have to move out of bin/
[12:10] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: g'bye - I'm taking off too. Thanks for the meeting
+
[12:02] Sarah Kline: set security levels
 +
[12:02] Robert Adams: or rename it and put in the bin/config directory
 +
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a ridiculous situation at the moment with practically everything piled in there
 +
[12:02] Robert Adams: all INI files are read in that directory
 +
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya
 +
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i mean if you look at like apache
 +
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it nots like apache can do much out of the box either
 +
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: things like php and java have inherit risks
 +
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: enabling them
 +
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true
 +
[12:04] Robert Adams: on the other hand, the default OpenSimulator setup is what most people run... so what should be common across OpenSim regions
 +
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the opensimulator/web server comparison isn't perfect because I see OpenSimulator as having to do so much more with its content
 +
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right
 +
[12:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
 +
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: whereas a vanilla webserver implements http and serves html without having to know what that html is
 +
[12:05] Robert Adams: at the moment, most people don't use the os functions because they are usually turned off
 +
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: but then I guess that breaks down if you consider php
 +
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i am just saying a lot of web facing software comes crippled out of the box
 +
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: forcing the person enabling them to be the one taking the risk
 +
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not the developers
 +
[12:06] Robert Adams: but the 'enabling them' step is not part of the normal installation instructions
 +
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we could certainly make things easier
 +
[12:06] Robert Adams: the 'wimp out' would be to add more documentation :)
 +
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hahha
 +
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: heh, - I was just about to type that :)
 +
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to admit, I don't have stomach for that fight right now
 +
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I just think about all the hoops I have to jump through to make apache work how I like
 +
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel I have to fight on too many other fronts
 +
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: opensim seems easy by comparison
 +
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of time too documentation is usless
 +
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: even good documentation
 +
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i end up finding the answer on some 15 year old kids blog
 +
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: would be a start to have good doc though
 +
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: reminds me of when i was learning wings3D
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i spent weeks trying to figure something out
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up finding a video on youtube was a 13 year old german kid
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: speaking german
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and i figured it out from that
 +
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol
 +
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but i don't disagree about any of it
 +
[12:10] Unknown User: can these things be enabled by the console, or is that a bad idea?
 +
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i was just making comparisons
 +
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: at the moment they can not
 +
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I think they are good points
 +
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it requires a sim restart
 +
[12:10] Fearghus McMahon: i think making proper documentation is the thing most developers hate ;)....next to not haveing proper documentation
 +
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: what's needed is reasonable discussion on these things
 +
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to pop off now
 +
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
 +
[12:11] dan banner: bye justin
 +
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I do as well
 +
[12:11] Sarah Kline: bye justin
 +
[12:11] Teravus Ousley: Ok, take care :)
 +
[12:11] dan banner: laters everyone
 +
[12:11] Fearghus McMahon: take care justin and Neb
 
</pre>
 
</pre>
 +
 +
 +
[[Category:Office Hour Logs]]

Latest revision as of 21:36, 24 October 2015

[11:02] Vivian Klees: walk along on a mega prim like this with the viewer recorder walking then play it back watch what it does
[11:02] dan banner: ahh
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, justin
[11:02] dan banner: hi justin
[11:02] Teravus Ousley: Hellow Justincc
[11:02] Vivian Klees: Big Buck in the house
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, but he isn't dressed as a Bunny. :-)
[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, hello nebadon
[11:03] dan banner: i'm wearing my big buck fan shirt
[11:03] Sarah Kline: hi
[11:03] dan banner: hi sarah
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... so you are, dan.
[11:04] Vivian Klees: I showed my friends the video, they said his dance was better than Psy's
[11:05] Teravus Ousley was just commenting on how it was a really quiet tuesday
[11:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... 0.7.6 (dev) :-)
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it does seem pretty quiet
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: which is what I need, quite frankly
[11:06] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:06] dan banner: justin, i changed lbsa to co-op and that user has not ended up being a ghost
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ah, interesting!
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: co-op?
[11:07] dan banner: its a wait and see tho
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: there's also a patch from oren that I need to look on that might touch on this issue
[11:07] Teravus Ousley: script abort -> script time coop
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: though I personally still think it's a script abort issue
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: could be combo though
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah
[11:08] dan banner: i did notice something else tho
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to give avatars their own app domains
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, it would be good to have that as an option
[11:08] dan banner: when ghosted, trying to teleport the avatar or kick the avatar both result in locking the console
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: still?
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: with co-op termination enabled?
[11:09] dan banner: i havent seen it with coop
[11:09] dan banner: yet
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: did you clean out the script directory when you turned co-op on?
[11:09] dan banner: just saying, its not the kick user
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: both those commands will end up using the same code to remove the current avatar from the scene
[11:09] dan banner: right
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: just to confirm, you cleared out the existing scripts?
[11:10] dan banner: everything has been running well at lbsa
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I only emphasize this because if one doesn't, one still uses scripts compiled to thread abort
[11:10] dan banner: no i recompiled them
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ok, great.
[11:10] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: if it does happen again, a vm thread dump would be much appreciated
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: everytime we do a plaza update
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the dlls get purged
[11:10] dan banner: sure justin
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully this time it would show properly if there's a deadlock
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so just updated will force that
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, great to know
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we do save states though
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's fine
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's only the compiled DLLS that need to be purged
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i figured it was safer to purge the dlls every update
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: takes a lot longer for that initial startup
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but avoids wierd issues
[11:12] logger sewell: Hi all made it
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory there should normally be no wierd issues
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hello Logger
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right, but we are constantly testing
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but I can imagine that something interesting might sometimes occur, esp. with dev code
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt want our bug reports to be clouded by issues that sneak in
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that could be avoided
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, absolutely
[11:13] Teravus Ousley: FYI, I swapped out the WebGL test page with a video.. since I'm not going to be here for a week :) http://teravus.wmcv.com/googletester/vstest/index.html ---> the page has the test page linked.. but as it says, no guarantee if the instance will be available while I'm away.
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hi logger, hi robert
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert, glad you made it :)
[11:13] Sarah Kline: HI Robert
[11:13] dan banner: hey robert
[11:13] Robert Adams: hello all
[11:13] logger sewell: HI Robert
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: heh
[11:13] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I always forget about the Bullet testing that happens before this meeting.
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's an impressive view of the region in webgl
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to make a video for you as soon as I could Teravus
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: busy day for me today though
[11:14] Teravus Ousley: heh, no worries.
[11:14] Robert Adams: the bullet office hours didn't happen today... I had other commitments... but next week for sure
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: great
[11:15] Teravus Ousley visited and smashed the chain links .. but that was it.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, sounds good although I'll probably miss next weeks. :-)
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i have a wierd issue with chains on my serer
[11:15] Robert Adams: LOL
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: server*
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: they move really slow for some reason
[11:15] Joe Radik: redvet-77
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not sure what is up with that
[11:15] Robert Adams: I need to add a special RLV mode so chains won't be as much of a problem for you :)
[11:16] Sarah Kline: )
[11:16] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: well, the black hole will smash the chain links to bits.. :)
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya its ok here
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: odd
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: your server is windows?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: nno
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Linux
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: same as this box
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0.3
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mono 3.0.3 still working out fine?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: working great
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: the bells, the bells
[11:18] Sarah Kline: LOL
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: bells? I don't hear any bells.
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if justin has been working so hard that he is starting to hallucinate
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ;-)
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a rare species of spinally dformed rabbit
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its tinitus
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:19] Teravus Ousley: It's 5 people replacing all of your roof shingles
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a pounding noise not a ringing one.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i need to check the mesh stairs
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: someone told me that was working now in bullet
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hoild on
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they are phantom at moment
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, mesh stairs. I can't see mesh objects. I've returned to using Imprudence on my laptop as I was having problems using other viewers.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: still tough
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: even going up the ramp seems tough
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: what is the spacing between treads on the stairs?
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its 0.36m
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: the stair spacing
[11:24] Robert Adams: and would this work in SL?
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not sure honestly
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive never uploaded stairs in SL
[11:24] Robert Adams: like you visit there all the time :)
[11:24] dan banner: seems any height stairs work in sl
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably work with regular prims
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, not true unless you use a ramp
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the spacing was .362
[11:25] Robert Adams: I'll play with that
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That is a bit on the high side.
[11:25] dan banner: andrew: its a whole lot higher there than opensim
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I find a spacing of .25 seems to work better. Not sure what the upper limit is before you start having problems climbing a set of stairs.
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it works with reg prims
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: same spacing
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: oh.
[11:26] dan banner: i know in ODE its also directional...
[11:26] dan banner: spin that around nebadon
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: .25m is actually closer to the virtual equivalent of real stairs
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: still make it up
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its not super smooth
[11:27] dan banner: ya
[11:27] dan banner: nice
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but it goes up
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: on the mesh stairs its like you hit a wall
[11:28] Robert Adams: I use a different stair climbing mechanism that ODE
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya in ODE
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: you are lucky to walk up 0.20 prims
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a good job I've largely overcome my screen-induced motion sickness
[11:28] Robert Adams: ODE relies on the rounded bottom of the avatar capsule -- that is why some of that stuff about capsule tilt
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is basically ramps or nothing
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even ramps have trouble in ODE
[11:29] dan banner: heh
[11:29] Robert Adams: I look for collisions close to the avatar's feet and then move the avatar up to try and get over the barrier
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: like dan said, dpending on their rotation / orientation to the sim
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: how much do you move them up, Robert?
[11:29] Robert Adams: that could be some problem with meshes, though
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: makes sense
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: cause you see if i put the ramp in the stairs its fine
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even if i don't make it phantom
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so its not artifacts
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no odd invisible triangles or something
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: the only problem I have with ramps is that people skip adding a guard rail and I sometimes fall off the stairs before making it to the top.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thats how these were
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: just like real life
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will unphantom all the stairs and leave ramps for now
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to work fine
[11:31] Robert Adams: there are three configuration parameters. AvatarStepHeight (height looking for collisions under ( default 0.3)
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't recall when i last had trouble with .25m spacing on stairs. I don't use ramps when I make stairs.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it depends Andrew
[11:31] Robert Adams: AvatarStepForceFactor (multiplier for force to get avatar up (default 2.0)
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the avatar capsule in ODE never rotates
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: and its tilted
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps I got lucky or my avatar is more coordinated. ;-)
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so sometimes your walking like your dragging a board behind you
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: other times its like your plowing it into the grund in front of you
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i haven't looked at the avatar capsule
[11:32] Robert Adams: and AvatarStepApproachFactor (controls how directly one has to approach the step (default 0.6)
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: when your plowing it into ground
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: going up stairs and ramps is difficult
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes impossible depending on the angle of incline
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the same goes for terrain
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes going up hills you avatar is floating off the ground
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its because your capsule is plowing into the terrain mesh
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:33] Robert Adams: the step height is the main one... come force is applied up and the avatar is moved up 1/2 the step height... so a step about .2 works well
[11:33] Teravus Ousley: dot product against the face normal.. :)
[11:35] Robert Adams: I can increase the default if a target step height is about .25
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: woah
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: this is pretty cool. It would be radical if this meeting space were just a bunch of chains extending from the moon down to the land surface
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: might be a bit stressful on the phys engine though :)
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: be neat to try something like that
[11:37] Vivian Klees: anyone tried to simulate a baseball pitching machine on bullet?
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Chain seats for everyone
[11:39] Robert Adams: or egg chairs suspended by chains
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:39] Robert Adams: can't get the links too small, though
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens then?
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: not tried Vivian, that might be tough
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably be somewhat unpredictable
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I need to try the axis locking
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: do you have an example script for that Robert?
[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald is offline.
[11:43] dan banner: .
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey farts discretely
[11:43] Vivian Klees lights a match
[11:43] Teravus Ousley makes a random comment about this video: http://youtu.be/PHSJCMkUa9Y , Why would you do something like that!?
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks prepares to call the fire department
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: If I knew that then I would probably be doing it
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol omg
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: horrible video haha
[11:45] dan banner: teravus: lack of common sense?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ive had like 2 or 3 spikes from those cactus in me
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it was excruciating
[11:45] Robert Adams: axis logging is not enabled yet... this job thing is distracting me :)
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok
[11:46] Robert Adams: making chain links too small causes them to jump around and break
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i saw a commit said something about experimental axis locking
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and assumed it was sorta working
[11:46] Robert Adams: I need to scale the collision margins and forces by the size of the object
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Teravus, I don't think that person will be doing it again any time soon (if ever)
[11:46] Robert Adams: yes... the code is there but turned off.... i'm using a Bullet constraint to lock the axis
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: 0.o
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: o.0
[11:48] Robert Adams: I've added all the bullet constraint types... won't be long before you can set any link in a linkset to be a constraint: hinge, slider, spring, ...
[11:48] dan banner: nice
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the center of gravity fix gone in to Bullet?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks rembered something about it from the mailing list or a previous meeting.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i think I saw some work for center of mass go in
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if its the final word yet
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll have to check that out sometime. I think that was what made my flying sleigh hard to control. It was off balance.
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=fb903ff49089d5fd7a56aa2401528c3e7cf1800c
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: this was last thing to go in for it
[11:51] Robert Adams: another feature that's almost there... not enabled, though
[11:51] Robert Adams: it will be user settable when it is done
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:51] Robert Adams wonders what people will do with setting center-of-mass outside an object :)
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Being able to change cog will be good for sailboats
[11:53] Teravus Ousley notes that whatever you do.. you don't want your game controls to be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2F3ZWEEbF4 (swearing)
[11:53] Robert Adams: I would like a bunch of OpenSim extensions to be enabled by default.... modInvoke, os function, ...
[11:53] Robert Adams: OpenSimulator is not SL any more
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see anything wrong with enabling them. But it will be a battle to have any OSSL threat level be default
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol thats funny Teravus
[11:57] Robert Adams: There should be a "UsualPermissions.ini" file that keeps thread level at RediculuslyHigh (or whatever it is now) but has Allows_ for useful but not usually dangerous functions
[11:58] Robert Adams: I know there is one person out there who thinks nothing should be allowed by default but that is not true for 99% of anybody's regions
[12:00] Robert Adams: and OpenSim-ness should be enabled by default (os functions, ...) and turnoffable if you want SL compatibility
[12:00] Sarah Kline: Maybe if the term Threat was changed people would feel different
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I agree. but if we are to 'move beyond' ll in that manner than I thikn everybody would have to accept that some non-sl functinos have to be always available
[12:00] Robert Adams: at least that's what I think
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Threat is certainly a paranoid way of putting it
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: although tat's not neecessarily inappropirate with a region running other people's code
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well there are quite a few OSSL functions you definately do not want or need on by default
[12:01] Robert Adams: I agree with you there, Nebadon...
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can have something like Robert said
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: have an example file people can rename
[12:02] Robert Adams: I'm not saying any script should be able to do console commands :)
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: then you uncomment out a line in Xengine
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: to enable the ini file
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I think one day those ini files really have to move out of bin/
[12:02] Sarah Kline: set security levels
[12:02] Robert Adams: or rename it and put in the bin/config directory
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a ridiculous situation at the moment with practically everything piled in there
[12:02] Robert Adams: all INI files are read in that directory
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i mean if you look at like apache
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it nots like apache can do much out of the box either
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: things like php and java have inherit risks
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: enabling them
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true
[12:04] Robert Adams: on the other hand, the default OpenSimulator setup is what most people run... so what should be common across OpenSim regions
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the opensimulator/web server comparison isn't perfect because I see OpenSimulator as having to do so much more with its content
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: whereas a vanilla webserver implements http and serves html without having to know what that html is
[12:05] Robert Adams: at the moment, most people don't use the os functions because they are usually turned off
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: but then I guess that breaks down if you consider php
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i am just saying a lot of web facing software comes crippled out of the box
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: forcing the person enabling them to be the one taking the risk
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not the developers
[12:06] Robert Adams: but the 'enabling them' step is not part of the normal installation instructions
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we could certainly make things easier
[12:06] Robert Adams: the 'wimp out' would be to add more documentation :)
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hahha
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: heh, - I was just about to type that :)
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to admit, I don't have stomach for that fight right now
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I just think about all the hoops I have to jump through to make apache work how I like
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel I have to fight on too many other fronts
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: opensim seems easy by comparison
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of time too documentation is usless
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: even good documentation
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i end up finding the answer on some 15 year old kids blog
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: would be a start to have good doc though
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: reminds me of when i was learning wings3D
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i spent weeks trying to figure something out
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up finding a video on youtube was a 13 year old german kid
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: speaking german
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and i figured it out from that
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but i don't disagree about any of it
[12:10] Unknown User: can these things be enabled by the console, or is that a bad idea?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i was just making comparisons
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: at the moment they can not
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I think they are good points
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it requires a sim restart
[12:10] Fearghus McMahon: i think making proper documentation is the thing most developers hate ;)....next to not haveing proper documentation
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: what's needed is reasonable discussion on these things
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to pop off now
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:11] dan banner: bye justin
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I do as well
[12:11] Sarah Kline: bye justin
[12:11] Teravus Ousley: Ok, take care :)
[12:11] dan banner: laters everyone
[12:11] Fearghus McMahon: take care justin and Neb
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