Chat log from the meeting on 2012-06-19

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[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi nebadon, folks
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi nebadon, folks

Revision as of 17:32, 21 August 2012

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi nebadon, folks
[11:04] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks wonders if 1.2GHz Celerons are really as slow as it seems they are
[11:04] BlueWall.Slade hi jcc
[11:04] Sarah Kline: Hi Justin
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: TortoiseGit has been checking disk space for about an hour or more.
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, Justin
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: your trying to clone or something Andrew?
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i never liked TortoiseGit, only time i ever use it is to search the logs
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Setting up a machine to test out latest code
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: whats the use of a fast pc if opensim seems to mix your lsl code or get out of synch whit what you see in editor. and happy i found someone that have the same problem sometimes.
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: i try to edit slow in lsl. but still sometimes..
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its likely your network connection is the issue, not the speed of your machine
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: wich of the 2 connection ? the server or the client. lol
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: could be either
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: or even both
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i cant really say honestly
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: same problem that i always get 2 or 3 the same objects if you or others give me something. most if am on my sim
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: and only with things the are given.
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya not sure, can't say I have seen that happen
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: i hae that problem for at least a year. well windows dont fix that sofar i see
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: at this point running on windows will be virtually no different than running on linux
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: it might even run a little better on linux
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: depending on what version of mono your using
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: its like some packet dont get confirmed so other login it get put again in my inventory.. something like that
[11:10] BlueWall.Slade considering all the dev and admin tools too
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya sounds like network issues or something maybe
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: well, it runs complete not on linux anymore with that cpu...
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: being this is not a wide spread issue
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it seems unlikely its a problem with the code directly
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: other than the code not being able to handle poor network quality better
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say, latency is a big factor in a lot of OpenSim problems
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I've just gotten used to using TortoiseGit when I'm on a Windows box
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: but latency is so hard to discover
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of ping are you seeing in the viewer to the simulator your having issues in Richardus?
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: what place you want i ping ?
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, what do you use instead of TortoiseGit when you want a GUI interface for Git?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: whatever sim your having trouble in, i was just wondering what the viewer ping shows
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: oh viewer ping. let me login with alt
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: here its 174ms
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: on wright plaza
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, hey Tiffany
[11:13] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves to Webby Merlin
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: in my sandbox after loading its 42ms
[11:14] Webby MerlinWebby Merlin waves back
[11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm. I'm averaging around 80ms here
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: hi tiffany
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: 36ms
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: so my sandbox is below 50ms
[11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Anything under 100ms can easily be simple physical distance or routing though.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya hard to say, it could also be the latency between the server and the osgrid servers
[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: My own regions I get about 35ms but they're also only in the next stae over.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: there are lots of factors
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: at this point I am just speculating without more hard evidence of what is actually happening
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: ping server close by othe risp 12-25ms on server connection
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: my client is around 27ms
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but since it doesnt appear to be a wide spread issue, atleast I am not getting wide scale reports, i would imagine its something localized to this particular server
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: especially if your saying its not happening on other regions
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, cant really confirm 100% nebadon. then i need to write it on paper.
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: sometime sthe next day i find the same items back... and people not always give obvjects..
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya its virtually impossible for us to debug the software on speculation
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: we need hard stats and errors and things we can base our testing on
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: we need a solid way to recreate the issue
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: or atleast point us in the right direction
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: there are just so many variables
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: its bugging me for at least a year. and still cant get a point on it
[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: i need to keep ore track on wich sim i get somethin nebadon.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya, that would be good
[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: other problems ?
[11:21] Key Gruin: tp2cam
[11:21] Richardus Raymaker: do you have a new version on the list nebadon ?
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: what do you mean?
[11:21] Key Gruin: guess not lol
[11:21] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm new opensim version
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: oh, not yet
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: need to get the plazas updated, make sure there is nothing wierd going on
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: oh, the 64bit windows opensim version can use more then2Gb right ? because my empty mega froze after 4 days with around 1,7GB in taskmanager. but i disabled now map refresh..
[11:22] Key Gruin: here's the eavesdropping gang :)
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[11:22] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: whats up Key?
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[11:23] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          1f34c82: 2012-06-13 04:05:02 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:23] Sarah Kline: Hi Dahlia
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: I'll try to get a new version posted up before the end of the week though
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: people can start playing around with llCastRay
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i have not even had a chance to try that yet
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: ah yes
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully it works
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: llCastRay sounds nice for animals etc. i dont think its usefull for some verhicle types like trains..
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: but.. nveer used that command at all
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: I have never used it either, ive seen lots of cool videos though of people doing neat things
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: coolest thing i saw was spraypaint cans
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: people spraying tags on walls
[11:25] Sarah Kline: nice have avination done stuff?
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya, llCastRay was put into core about a week or so ago
[11:25] Richardus Raymaker: well llCastRay is really nice for things thats for sure
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: its not made it into the OSgrid release yet
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully this week, i dont really see any reason i won't be able to get a release out this week sometime
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: but.. llSetKeyframedMotion sound smore intressting. but thats not here. and alos never used
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: a few people were talking about working on it
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Avination has it semi-working
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: one thing to remember is even SL doesnt have that yet
[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Avination has is, albiet without physics.
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: so things could potentially change
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: until its fully released in SL
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: llSetKeyframedMotion ? hmm i used the example in the normal sl grid
[11:27] Mike Kayaker: Yes, it works in SL, but I have seen a few problems.
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: SL has it
[11:27] Key Gruin: is it a processor or memory hog?
[11:27] BlueWall.Slade hey, it's there
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah I didnt think it was complete in SL yet
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: aha, mike. only tried the example
[11:27] BlueWall.Slade it's supposed to be lighter than physics, I think
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its so hard to keep up with all this stuff though
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: its the preferred way to move non-physical stuff
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: things happen so fast
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: grin
[11:28] BlueWall.Slade I've seen notes where people are starting to use it for trains
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: fast, but mean fast, good ?
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Part of the whole point was that llSetPos sucked... it's a replacement for moving stuff with that.
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: fi try to use at_target again. but not sure if it likes me already in that build
[11:28] Han Held: I'm using a diva standalone and I'm wincing at stuff it's missing (ie setting enviroments) so..yeah, things are moving fast.
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well its definately something we can look forward to at some point
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: worst case is we get the avination port in a few months time
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: until then i use llsetpos. grin
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: or someone else submits some patches to get it working
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: I recall someone else talking about talking a look
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: was it Talun?
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: environment setting is now in opensim dev
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i think it was
[11:29] BlueWall.Slade I think so
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: I was talking about it but never got around to it
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: well on mailinglist the talked about it
[11:29] Han Held: Justin, diva is based on 0.7.3 tho :|
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: in irc
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: avination seems to have it
[11:30] BlueWall.Slade haa, I remember that Dahlia
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: one way or the other we'll eventually have that functionality
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: speaking of movement and vehicles, has anyone done anything more on the vertical movement issue that was narrowed down to a small block of code?
[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: ya avination has it but who knows if/when they donate it?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: I don't think so Andrew, i did see you mention that on IRC or mailing list
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't had time to look
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: k
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: did you ever get around to testing it with your fireworks?
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: andrew. sofar i know it keept pretty silent on mailinglist after that
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i remember you saying something about testing it
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't really had much chance to do that yet
[11:31] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks sighs
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: the cat is after my chair again
[11:31] BlueWall.Slade that is a good clue we got from the list
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, indeed
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant even remember now what was said about it, id have to dig it up and look again myself
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i do remember seeing it though
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: The vertical component of movement was being set to 0 IIRC
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm ya that is somewhat surprising
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: There was some condition on it. I don't remember the exact details
[11:32] Mike Kayaker: Someone (Justin?) gave me a link to the vehicle code, there is a comment saying "I can't figure a way to keep gravity" or something
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: though, i do remember having to do some wierd things to make my helicopter work
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: It didn't seem to make sense that it was doing that.
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: well, someone can always go in and play with the numbers that are there
[11:33] Mike Kayaker: so the vertical velocity from the motor was cut out
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: might have been me, I don't remember exactly
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i do know my helicopter can go up and down though
[11:33] Mike Kayaker: Looks difficult, someone has to figure out how to do it first...
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: how about megaregions. or here the last time some negative talk. about maby remove it. but its hard to replace that simborder and wide area with soemthing else
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm assuming it's more complex than some rong numbers
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I have to find the original bug report or email to get the details. It pointed to the file
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: it is ;)
[11:34] Mike Kayaker: I looked at other helicopter scripts: They work by calling applyimpulse every time they set the linear motor.
[11:34] Helicopter v5.9: Vehicle Mass : 82.110878
[11:34] Mike Kayaker: So the linear motor does the horizontal, and impulse does the vertical.
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: it ws just setting Z to 0 basically (or close to it) based on some tests about what it was supposed to be doing.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: it does look the wrong way around in some way
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: as I confirmed the bugs you filed with my own tests
[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: I just use applyimpulse and not_at_target() to move things
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: that works well :)
[11:35] Mike Kayaker: It looks to me like gravity and the motor should be combined as accelerations, but the code has only velicities to deal with..
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: note to self, helicopter inside = bad
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: My firework uses llRezObjectAt, IIRC so its different mechanism to specify Z velocity
[11:35] Key Gruin: hehe
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe.
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Unless its one of those small RC ones, nebadon
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: if anyone wants a copy of the helicopter let me know
[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: me :)
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: not sure but i think its this thread.
[11:36] Helicopter v5.9: Vehicle Mass : 82.110878
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks but busy with other things at the moment
[11:36] Key Gruin: I would Neb
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: SL9B has started in SL so I'll be looking around there a bit
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there you go
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: just grab a copy of it
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: done
[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: ty
[11:37] Richardus Raymaker: not really impressed with sl9b..
[11:37] Mike Kayaker: I have a new helicopter script that USES the bug to get natural movent horizontally, and uses hover height to move vertically,
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: Its been a while since i worked on it
[11:37] Key Gruin: got it
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so i cant recall exactly everything i did to make it work
[11:37] Mike Kayaker: I posted it in the scripting forum on osgrid...
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but i remember having to do very wierd things
[11:37] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks files it under his Transportation folder
[11:37] BlueWall.Slade need a mesh cat body on it :p
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: You want a flying cat, BlueWall?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i was a bit lazy on the design
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i was mostly focused on the script
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: it could certainly use a lot of improvement
[11:38] Key Gruin: the important basics are there
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i was mostly just seeing if i could make a flying vehicle
[11:38] BlueWall.Slade I was trying to make a prim slide across another and it kept tipping me over
[11:38] Key Gruin: add your own embellishments :)
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its sorta based on a couple of working vehicles, mostly cars
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: did you make the prims Glass BlueWall?
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: making them glass reduces friction
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: it can help with that
[11:38] BlueWall.Slade I think I did
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but ya its still not perfect
[11:39] BlueWall.Slade I haven't been able to break out and mess with those too much
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: end of the day, vehicles still pretty much suck here
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: they just barely work
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: i know my verhicle train did do weird to if it hit a wrong placed prim.
[11:40] BlueWall.Slade a person was talinkg about trains working pretty good in IRC last night
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: and if the would work nebadon, everybody wants a mega
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya I can see trains working
[11:40] Fearghus McMahon: greetings all
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: non physical stuff shouldnt be too bad
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: hell fear
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its the physical vehicles that are pretty crappy
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't want a mega. I want vars. :) That's the one thing aurora has I wish we did.
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: yes. thats why i dropped use for train ...
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: the trick is to not rely to much on timers
[11:40] BlueWall.Slade he said it was physical
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: Marcus, thats almost the same as mega. no simborder lag
[11:40] BlueWall.Slade will have to get more info on it though
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: do variable regions work well in Aurora?
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: if you can figure out a way to not use massive amounts of timers, then a non physical vehicle should work well
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: well, am on the edgo of a lower timer train.. i think
[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: I've never played with them in any exhaustive way. But my visits to them have had no problems. They don't have the sort of parcel and terrain issues a mega has.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Andrew, never used em myself
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: but its llsetpos :O
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i know the viewer devs were griping about issues
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and talking about removing support for it
[11:42] Sarah Kline: They just have map issues )
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but to be honest I am only repeating what ive heard
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i have no first hand experience
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: but, because all the confusing. people start to thing also mega region support get removed. at least thats what i understand.
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... I don't understand the map part. You'd think they'd reserve world coordinates for what a var covers when it registers with the grid.
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there is nothing special in the viewers to support mega regions
[11:42] Sarah Kline: yus
[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: I would think the lazy update stuff hurli added would mess up non-phys vehicles pretty bad
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Ypou talk now about var dahlia ?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: hey speaking of Viewer devs
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Armin just arived :)
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: hello Armin!
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: var?
[11:43] BlueWall.Slade I have the llSetPos and it kills the event manager
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Variable region
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregioins are basically a hack that allows something larger than 256x256 without altering the viewer.
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: not seen position problems with mega regions and prims
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Part of the problem with supporting megas is the number of places in the code where it may be assuming 256m
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: right Variable Size aurora regions are not mega regions
[11:44] Key Gruin: hello Armin
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: hi viv
[11:44] Armin Weatherwax: hi :)
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: no lazy update is totally different than megaregions
[11:44] BlueWall.Slade Hi Armin
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: get arnin
[11:44] VivK Lowlag: hi Rich, everyone
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: hi Armin :)
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: mega or var sized
[11:44] Key Gruin: hi Viv
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: er, hey I mean
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: hi armin
[11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Variable size regions would be incredibly valuable, but it requires viewer coding to support, though. Which puts a nice big hurdle in the way.
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: exactly
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, that's the rub.
[11:45] BlueWall.Slade I would cast a vote to work out border crossings
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and you have to figure out all the problems of how they interact in a continuous space
[11:45] Key Gruin: you need Astra
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: a lot easier if everything is a spearate island
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Only a handful support it. I hear Firestorm will get support for them.
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: yes blue, but the never get so good as a mega
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are going to set up a viewer to handle that you can break the 4k TP limit at the same time ;-)
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to try to get normal border crossing with vehicles working and optiomzed
[11:45] BlueWall.Slade well, they might :)
[11:45] Tadashir Rapenth: Question: Does anyone know how to export my inventory without owning my region? I have a standalone but the one that's connected to osgrid isn't run by me.... thus i have no console.
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: and how do you tranfser prim positions from 1 region to another. its with mega much more easy
[11:45] Sarah Kline: if some TPV part company from LL because of havoc maybe they might do some support for vars
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Tadashir you have to have console access
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: or know someone with console access you trust
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: really trust
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:46] BlueWall.Slade I think we could use some of what the mega has - let the region project the movement into the next region just like a mega does
[11:46] Tadashir Rapenth: so no way to do it?
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: no, not without a console
[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: I would think map issues would be one of the easier things with variable regions, unless it's not locked to a specific multiple
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: well thats not 100% true
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you could buy Second Inventory
[11:46] BlueWall.Slade and it could do that until the next region is syncd up and ready to handoff
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but thats a nightmare i do not recommend inducing
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: in theory it could be done with a script if you knew how to access the database
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: tadashir: if you have a regio nconnected to osgrid then it's not a standalone
[11:46] Tadashir Rapenth: any good places to get stuff for a standalone? I got a store from lindakellie but cant find more stores i can load.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: they have both Justin
[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: I exported my osgrid inventory but I couldnt import it, kept throwing errors about illegal characters or something
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but no console access in OSgrid
[11:47] BlueWall.Slade if that could be worked out, then crossing would be every bit as smooth as megaregions
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i assume they want to move osgrid inventory to the standalone
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: tadashir: you could try and similar places
[11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Agreed... that's the whole reason megas exist, really.
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: quite frankly, having regions side by side on different machines is nuts
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: best would be to have a opensim optimized sl viewer
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: it introduces a massive whack of extra complexity
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: SI has gotten more finicky about object perms due to changes in SL
[11:48] Key Gruin: Tadashir, can you hook up a sim to osgrid?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: you could temporarily connect your own sim
[11:48] Tadashir Rapenth: looked at opensim creations.. and yes.. i want some stuff for my standalone.. i do not have internet right now... just borrowing someones connection briefly..
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: just for the sake of dumping your inventory
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: then shut it down
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its not hard
[11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: You have to get people willing to make that viewer reality though. And that know C++. :P
[11:48] BlueWall.Slade
[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: well justin, dop everything on 1 machine in 1 instance dont work good to. so best setup is 1:1 on 1 system or mega
[11:49] Tadashir Rapenth: i cannot run a sim.. tried once a while back
[11:49] BlueWall.Slade I've had regions ov different machines and they worked ok
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks whispers: would it be better at all to convert viewer to something other than C++ (ie C#)?
[11:49] Tadashir Rapenth: can't connect because of router or something
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: if you ask me Justin, running more than 1 region per simulator is equally as bad
[11:49] BlueWall.Slade both in a datacenter
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Been done, Andrew. It's called Redegast. ;)
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Radegast*
[11:49] BlueWall.Slade can do that too neb
[11:49] BlueWall.Slade but, cna't overload them
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I do wonder if there shouldn't be a default upper limit on regions per simulator, maybe 4
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: oh ,ok. I don't follow all the multitude of viewers
[11:49] BlueWall.Slade just watch the content/load on them
[11:50] Armin Weatherwax: Is var sized regions going to be added as feature for OpenSim?
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: and then if you want to go over that you have to explicitly acknowledge that it'#s not recommended
[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: c++ is better for viewers I think...
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: i hate running more then 1 simulator / region. expection i do it with mega region., thats not the same..
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya its certainly possible, but everytime you add a region your dicing up resources that much more
[11:50] Tadashir Rapenth: damn, need to find some more iar files... or an oar file of a store
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: Radegast is a project by Latif... same guy that maintains libomv.
[11:50] BlueWall.Slade 3/4 medium regions run well in an instance
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: armin: how do they work with the viewer map and other regions?
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: always do 1:1 or opensim need to support seperate databases for every region inside 1 instance and shutdown for 1 region without killing whole opensim .. <- hard one
[11:51] Key Gruin: Tadashir, Linda Kellie has her full inventory on her website
[11:51] Tadashir Rapenth: i have it already key.. ty
[11:51] Tadashir Rapenth: also got this large library thing that's supposed to have a lot of objects to load.. havn't tried it yet
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall my conversations with Rev about those larger than 256m regions
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: they only used 1 regular tile on the map
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but that was also quite a long time ago we talked about that
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: my recollection could be wrong
[11:52] Armin Weatherwax: well, from imprudence still I found them pretty difficult to maintain, thats why I didn't touch them for kokua or teapot (introduce crashes, map wirdness, and such)
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: but how would you then stop other regions overlapipng it?
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: armin: yeah - I haven't really thought about it because of all these unanswered questions
[11:52] BlueWall.Slade ++
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: and the fact there's a shit-ton of other bugs/unimplemented features :)
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: basically it only worked well if you had full control of the grid
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: honestly i dont think it would ever work in a open grid like OSG
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: teapot have other things needed that are more usefull :O
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there are reasons you dont see any Aurora grids
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: be nice neb :)
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt mean it as an insult
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: but teapot looks already good
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: just saying there are problems in maintaining a grid thats all
[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I thought there was an aurora grid but it went under
[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: nova grid?
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yeah, it's a very complex task
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is they closed down due to issues with the code
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: not to be underestimated
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: became to difficult to maintain it
[11:54] Armin Weatherwax: its just as long as opensim doesn't have them I rather wont work on it for any viewer, with opensim having them ... well ... I'd look
[11:54] Key Gruin: I see Rev Smythe is actively working at aurora again
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: armin: chicken and egg - opensim would be much more likely to have them with a demonstrated working viewer implementatino :)
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: something simpel as copy & paste vectors is more usefull then variable region..
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you should talk to Siana Gearz
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: btw, I have experimetnal code for multi-attachment now
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think she knew alot about the Aurora stuff
[11:56] BlueWall.Slade I would much rather put effort into getting region crossings working - unless someone comes up with a new / better OpenSim viewer that needs them
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: she can probably explain some of the issues better than most could
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: it's on a separate branch, still need to do a bit of testing with ordinary viewers and think about the data structures
[11:56] Dahlia Trimble: I have a viewer that can work with odd-sized regions but its not a LL based viewer
[11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Region crossings need to be improved but there are some things that just never will work as well as no border.
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: Ive never tested that feature with opensim tho ;)
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: your right bluewall, but its a terrible task. especially with something as opensim and osgrid
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, region crossings will never be perect, because you have to transfer things between two different scenes and physiocs engine scenes
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: nd like otaku syas, ega regions always win
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: in a megaregion everything is in one single physics scene
[11:57] Armin Weatherwax: well, its a lot of effort on viewer side for a not so exciting feature, standard region size is working well
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: in principle, you might be able to change things so that all regions in a simulator are actually in the same physics scene but that's a lot of effort
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i dont need variables. just good mega regions is fine.
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: I think considering the grid concept, megaregions is a better idea anyway
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble with mega regions is that without viewer changes they are always going to be a bit shaky. I think
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: like having to double teleport when you go into them
[11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: If viewer changes can be made, you sort of don't need the megas any more, though.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt that also be the case for any region larger than 256 though Justin?
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: one thing that might be good is to have a viweer that could cope with those
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: justin, i think its more easy to adjuts a viewer for mage's then for varialbes.. maby armin can say more about that
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: so you could have a region that is variable but only in 256 x256 units
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: atleast with megaregions were not completely rewriting everything
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: which gets rid of some of the other problems of having fully variable regions
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: where with variable size regions i can only assume it would be a lot more work
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Yes, you'd definitely want it locked to a multiple. Otherwise it becomes like 10x as complex, especially with mapping.
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: exactly
[11:59] BlueWall.Slade I would think we need to send a regioninfo for the one that the client is in at the time
[12:00] Armin Weatherwax: 256 units sounds better - that would at least not break the sim coordinates
[12:00] BlueWall.Slade so, have an array of those and send the one that is needed to the client
[12:00] Mike Kayaker: Is there a way for a script to detect the megaregion size?
[12:00] BlueWall.Slade ++ Armin
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a compromise but I don't think it'#s a horrible one
[12:00] Armin Weatherwax: (not sure about memory usage)
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: not atm, though one could have it as an extra component of llRequestSimulatorData or similar
[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: I wouldn't think it'd require much more in the way of resources compared to running the same size in individual regions. Maybe a little less in fact since it's not trying to communicate so many ways at once.
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: DATA_SIM_SIZE
[12:01] BlueWall.Slade or an ossl one
[12:02] Armin Weatherwax: one issue with aurora patches in impru was that rev assumed the memory of the users computer is unlimited
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: well, one issue is that in a megaregion the simuloator will fling everyytghing at you at once
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol. Bad assumption.
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: which is a weakness in opensimulator atm I think
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: empty opensim mega 4x4 use here (private) 900MB now
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: or rather, in a genuine variable sized region - I'm not entire sure how megaregions operate
[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: ouch armin. most still run on low memory systems
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I think there is a lot of optimization that could be done to OpenSim in general
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I think the better basic thing first would be to fix these object physics vehicle problems
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: that would alone vastly improve Mega regions
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there's huge scope for optimized in opensim - something things are being done in ways that are not optimal
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Lots of optimization. Optimization good.
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: but then people will complain of not having new features ;)
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: It doesn't address the hackier bits, though... like parcel and terrain issues in a mega.
[12:04] BlueWall.Slade I see a lot of code lately that will help in gathering stats for optimization
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Do we really need many more features? It's mostly needing to get what we have working well.
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, those care continuing prioblems
[12:04] Armin Weatherwax: well, usually you don't get at the point where you recognize it having 4GB or more, as long as the grid isn't too large
[12:04] BlueWall.Slade coutesy o fJCC
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: Mracus, wich side is the problem. viewer opensim or both ?
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, physics isn't quite the issue I thought it was - after having corrected the stats
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Terrain and parcels are handles on the simulator.
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I still tihnk the real issue is the massive memory churn and the pause whilst mono garbage collects
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: in turns of having a consistently smooth simulator
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya, I had a feeling physics wasnt one of the major performance issues
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: aha, still sure thats fixable. and have the feeling the need for mega's grow. especially if verhicles start to work
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: so fix verhicles first :)
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: I still think scripting is the worst on performance
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: well that and comms
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's hard to tell the scipting load right now, as it's not part fo the scene grame
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: i hate a little bit the event based lsl way.
[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, Physics is relatively stable unless you try to throw grey goo at it or something.
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim took a different approach to linden lab in implementing that
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya while vehicles and such suck
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is quite efficient
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: it would be better if it had multi thread support
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's more coding issues than ode perf per se
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but overall its a pretty efficient engine
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is aincent in terms of code
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i would hope its well optimized at this point
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it depnds on the scenario
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: games vs virtual worlds
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: though I dont really think ODE was ever considered a game engine
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its more a simulator
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: than a game engine
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: most games don't have so much shit being created on the fly :)
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: with unpredictable sizes, shapes, etc.
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[12:07] BlueWall.Slade they have flies being created on the ...
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: though I think that is changing a bit too Justin
[12:08] Dahlia Trimble: mmmmm lunch time... bye all :) *waves*
[12:08] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn gets out the fly swatter.
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[12:08] BlueWall.Slade bye Dahlia
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: did you ever see the cheese wheel demo Skyruim?
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: yes :)
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: ?
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: no think not
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Speaking of physics, BulletSim seems to have been compiled a bit differently when it was updated to 2.80. Won't work on my server any more.
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:09] UUID Speaker: Peaceful Harbour: 29f005ce-a889-407f-902a-21efd22c661e
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: ouch
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: current dev code?
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol love these demos
[12:10] BlueWall.Slade robert adams said he would probably be able to work on that more at the end of summer
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice. What was used to make that cheese wheel demo?
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Cool.
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: Skyrim Andrew
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the other day intel said they were actually happy to work on it if opeople got bugs to them!
[12:10] BlueWall.Slade hey Robert
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: "This? is how fondue was invented." hehe
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Gamebryo engine.
[12:10] Richardus Raymaker: lol
[12:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, everything from the last BulletSim update. I tracked it down to the fact some OS like CentOS require System V compatibility set. The module before was set with that, but not the current one.
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hey Robert, were your ears ringing
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:11] BlueWall.Slade :D
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: we were talking about Bulletsim just now
[12:11] Robert Adams: ring a ding ding
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and boom, you showed up
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: sounds nasty
[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: well its a long way before virtual world can do that i think
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be fantastic when OS can do something like that demo
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:11] BlueWall.Slade intel has listening devices in the chips
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I told mic that if intel could fix vehicles in bullet then they might get a whole ton more adoptions ;)
[12:11] Robert Adams: my lips are sealed
[12:12] OtakuMegane Desu: The only way to fix it is compiling it differently and I don't have the files used.
[12:12] Marcus Llewellyn: I think you could do something like that now. Just so long as you're prepared to restart often, and don't have users wandering around mucking things up. ;)
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya everyone is totally itching for Bulletsim
[12:12] Armin Weatherwax: one thing I want to propagate is the "gatekeeper" url for the get_grid_info service, divas office provides that, and it makes hypergrid handling for the viewer easier
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: they should be in the opensim-libs repo
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: i would love nothing more than to make it the default in OSgrid release
[12:12] Robert Adams: i think so too... the three things to be done are avatars, linksets and vehicles
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: marcus, its the type of test that Nebadon tends to do
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: beleive me as soon as we can, OSgrid will be pushing on it
[12:13] OtakuMegane Desu: I'll poke around again, see if I can find them.
[12:13] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn nods in agreement.
[12:13] Richardus Raymaker: bulet sounds so good
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: but if your interested in testing Bulletsim now
[12:13] BlueWall.Slade Armin, those are a key - val thing and I think just adding it will send it - can you see if that is the case?
[12:13] OtakuMegane Desu: But anyway. BUllet is really promising, simply because OpenCL if nothing else. Sme of the recent demos are amazing.
[12:13] Robert Adams: ok.... my family will be gone this weekend and it'll just be me, the dogs and the computer :)
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: i do have a special Physics Arena Oar file
[12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: I can't wait to see all the new ways my avatar bounces, bends, and falls over with Bullet being tested. >:)
[12:13] BlueWall.Slade if you need further, then ping me
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: designed for testing and reporting issues with Bulletsim
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: let me get the link to the oar
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:14] Richardus Raymaker: rotfl marcus
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I might have to give up on installing tortoiseGit on this Celeron machine. Its taking too long for it to determine available disk space before it will comlete the install of itself
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: oh your just installing Andrew
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: i assumed you were actually cloning
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: how odd
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: trying to install
[12:14] BlueWall.Slade Armin - also, we might could pick that up in HG configuration and automaticaly add it
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[12:14] Richardus Raymaker: hmm normal 1.2Ghz celeron not so slow... you have enough memory ?
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Been running for about an hour and a half just doing a disk check
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: plenty of RAM (2G)
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that is very strange
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i would reboot and try again maybe
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: and its not locked up
[12:15] Armin Weatherwax: blue: yeah, even if you just add it by hand the viewer can see it (and that for knows it can hg there)
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise just use msysgit
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yeah. I'm thinking of doing reboot since I think that might be needed after installing msysgit
[12:15] BlueWall.Slade ok, coll I will add it in the Robust.HG.ini.example
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: or you could even try using the new github version
[12:15] Richardus Raymaker: its btw one of the cpu's i still not have collected :O
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: github has their own git client now
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. I just don't know git well enough that I can handle getting branch commands right
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it does get tricky
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to check my notes on branching.
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: if you get stuck or have questions im sure someone on #opensim-dev can answer them
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: its why tortoise may not be great but at least it works when I'm on window for doing branch stuff
[12:16] Robert Adams: branching is addictive once you get the hang of it
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: or the maling list
[12:16] BlueWall.Slade speaking of branching -- I need to be leaving
[12:16] Richardus Raymaker: i looked at the windows git client. but its more easy to download it with linux
[12:17] Richardus Raymaker: bye blue
[12:17] Robert Adams: I just install cygwin and use the command line git
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I was fine with brnaching in svn but with git, I can too easily wind up "not on any branch" and need ages to recover
[12:17] BlueWall.Slade nice meeting - see you all next week
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: bye bluewall
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya i hear you, i suck at it as well Andrew
[12:17] Armin Weatherwax: tc blue :)
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: cya, Blue
[12:17] Robert Adams: bye bluewall
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: pffff, command line is all you need
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I wrote up my own "Git Survivor Guide"
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: guis for git, honestly :)
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: msysgit works great for command line in windows
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: thats what I use
[12:17] Richardus Raymaker: hard to view opensim in ascii justing :O
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, Git is the only vcs I've ever used that has caused me to lose work.
[12:18] Richardus Raymaker: ascii virtual world
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess you've never trid to use anything from rational corporatio nthen
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: nope. Don't know them
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: owned by iBM - horrrrrible
[12:19] Richardus Raymaker: hello raz
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, we we ere forced to use it
[12:19] Raz Welles: Heya :)
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I've just gone the RCS/QRCS/PVCS -> CVS -> SVN -> Git route
[12:19] Robert Adams: now there's an idea... an ascii viewer.... it would look like nethack
[12:19] Armin Weatherwax: hi raz :)
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: robert: should be fast.
[12:20] Richardus Raymaker: hehe
[12:20] Raz Welles: Hey Armin!
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I should get going
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: ok Andrew, thanks for coming
[12:22] Richardus Raymaker: bye andrew
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hi raz
[12:22] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves
[12:23] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          1f34c82: 2012-06-13 04:05:02 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[12:23] Richardus Raymaker: is there a way to clear all llTarget in one step ?
[12:23] Richardus Raymaker: all 8 positions ?
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: llTargetRemove?
[12:25] Richardus Raymaker: that can only remove 1 target, not all at once
[12:25] Richardus Raymaker: or i mis something
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm ya, only thing i can think is reset the script maybe
[12:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Just store your target handles in a list and then remove them all in a for loop. Not a lot of code there.
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats far from ideal though
[12:25] Richardus Raymaker: where thinking in that direction to. thanks
[12:25] Tiffany Magic: I need to go also... be well all.
[12:26] Richardus Raymaker: hoped for easy way like you can do with lists
[12:26] Richardus Raymaker: bye tif
[12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to drop off. Thanks for the meeting, guys
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin, thanks for coming
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: talk soon :)
[12:27] Marcus Llewellyn: Later, Justin
[12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I am sure
[12:27] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
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