Chat log from the meeting on 2012-06-05

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[11:04] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          729d901: 2012-06-02 05:03:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:05] Sarah KlineSarah Klinehiyas
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah, folks
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, everyone
[11:06] Bea.Sting hello Justin, all
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hello bea
[11:06] Pathfinder.Lester howdy folks
[11:07] Sarah Kline: hi
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hi pathfinder
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: gave nebadon a ping - do we know if he is around?
[11:08] Sarah Kline: Justin what was that thing with udp and http and affects all V3's?
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: 1 question, the opensi restart command. does the keep the position locked ?
[11:08] Sarah Kline: lol
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: sarah - it will affect ll 3.3.1, not sure about later
[11:09] Sarah Kline: ah ok )
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: the latest osgrid release will have a fix for that
[11:09] Sarah Kline: thx
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: position locked?
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: coordinates
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see why it wouldn't
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: well shutdown release it.
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: howver, I'm not even sure how well that command works - until recently there was an issue with it that probably stopped it working
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: yes
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: well it kills on windows the instance. right now on linux. but not for long. problems with it..
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: try to find a shutdown command without coordinate release
[11:11] Sarah Kline: hi Qandy
[11:11] Qandy Saw: hey Sarah
[11:11] Qandy Saw: hey everyone
[11:11] hippie balbozar: hello
[11:11] Bea.Sting =)
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: hi qandy
[11:11] Qandy Saw: hey justin
[11:11] Qandy Saw: Bea :)
[11:11] Qandy Saw: hippie :)
[11:12] Bea.Sting Qandy, Hippie =)
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I'm not sure where neb is - I think we should get started
[11:12] Qandy Saw: uhum
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: as usual, no fixed agenda - anything people want to discuss about opensim this week?
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I found a bug in the terragen terrain loader
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: well... SIgnpost found it, I've diagnosed it and understand whats going on.
[11:13] Sarah Kline: lol HIppie not seen that since my camping days in SL
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: what is going on?
[11:13] Mike Kayaker: I have a couple issues, but I'm new and waiting for the regular agenda to get finished...
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: There are about 3 different problems.
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: First, Signpost found he could generate a file that triggered red text on the console. Attempt to read past end of file.
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I used his instructions and made a terragen file that triggered the error so I can reproduce it.
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: what viewer sarah. i see hippi fine
[11:15] Sarah Kline: Firestorm
[11:15] Sarah Kline: thats first time ever
[11:15] Sarah Kline: i relog
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Looking at the code I see several things. First, the code was reading two many int16's for SIZE block in LoadStream
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: It should only ever be two int 16's
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes, that looks like a bug
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Second, the terrain file was generated with size of 129x129 which seems fine. The problem is there winds up being two alignment bytes at the end of the file before the EOF marker.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: The code finishes reading elevation data but doesn't swallow the two bytes of alignment.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Instead of getting the EOF marker it gets the two 00 bytes and E O and since that isn't a valid EOF marker it keeps reading to past end of file.
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: in fact, LoadStream and LoadFile should probably use common code - looks like a lot of copy/past atm
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: The third problem is the code assumes the terragen file will always be of RegionSize x RegionSize.
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ok. are you planning on submitting a patch
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ?
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: In the test case, that isn't true and also causes issues and also prevents the upper level module loader from spitting out exception telling person that size is not correct. (ie. not 256x256)
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. Need to work on a patch. Only just finish getting to the bottom of what's going on.
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I might fix the size reading quickly by eliminating the two extra ReadInt16()
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: would that work?
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I've done that locally. It probably won't affect anything since it assumes a given size but it will help avoid it swallowing the next section marker.
[11:20] Robert Adams: would the padding be different on 64bit machines?
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Still needs an extra check to decide if alignment bytes need to be swallowed before finishing with the elveation data\
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert: No, it shouldn't matter since this is a file format we are talking about. The code says its reading int16's so that shouldn't change even on a 64-bit machine.
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: justin, whats the time before assets get persistent in database. it seems wacky here.
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: assets persist immediatley
[11:23] Robert Adams: just bringing it up in case
[11:23] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin waves to Dahlia
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hi signpostmarv, dahlia
[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:24] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin logs into SL to port his stickman avie
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: ok mike: do you want to go ahead with your questions?
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: strange. made sql backup today. imported that one on new system but eryn's latesyt osgaze where lost again. not sure about some other things
[11:25] Mike Kayaker: Sure, Hi every one
[11:25] Qandy Saw: hey
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Justincc, btw, git blame seems to indicate you added the extra two int16 reads in commit 67ebe80d
[11:25] Mike Kayaker: Short question: How do I get authorized to contribute to the osgrid wiki?
[11:25] Mike Kayaker: It says not a member of emailconfirmed
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yeah, I was removing a warning but it's not impossible I did something dumb. I certainly didn't mean to put extra reads there
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: you didn't get a confirmatio ne-mail when you signed up for any account?
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: no, problem. The alignment byte issue and assuming a fixed size are the bigger problem
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: unfortunately we had to turn that on due to spam issues
[11:26] Mike Kayaker: I may have gotten one a long time ago...
[11:27] Mike Kayaker: been inactive for a while
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: what's the username?
[11:28] Mike Kayaker: Same as her? Mike Kayaker?
[11:28] Mike Kayaker: Might be Kayaker Magic
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: wiki thinks Kayaker Magic is e-mail confirmed
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: so I',m not sure what is happening there
[11:29] Mike Kayaker: Here's what I want to do: I'm looking for a place to put differences between LSL in SL and OS.
[11:29] Mike Kayaker: The LSL wiki in osgrid looks like a good place
[11:29] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey nods
[11:29] Mike Kayaker: so I was thinking of filling in the missng functions that I have discovered differences in and documenting them
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Makes a change to see Nebadon late to the meeting.
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Nebadon
[11:30] Sarah Kline: sounds good Mike
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mike; htat would be very helpful, and would encourage that stuff ot be fixed up where appropriate
[11:30] Sarah Kline: hi Neb
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: hey neb
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: hi neb
[11:30] Bea.Sting hello Nebadon
[11:30] Qandy Saw: hello
[11:31] Mike Kayaker: I've also been submitting bug reports to mantis.
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I see you've done a few for vehicle issues
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: vehicles are pretty ropy in opensim/ode right now
[11:32] Mike Kayaker: Yeah, instead of submitting a 1000 line vehicle that doesn't work, I make 10-line scripts that demonstrate a specific problem
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's much more helpful
[11:32] Mike Kayaker: hehe
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure exactly how soon these will be fixed though
[11:32] Mike Kayaker: I'm hoding my breath.
[11:32] Mike Kayaker: holding
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: but having test scritps will encourage people to come up with patches
[11:33] Mike Kayaker: Anybody I could have an off-line talk to about vehicles?
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I might be able to take a look myself sometime but not sure
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: offline converastions are difficult - it would be easier on the mailing list I think
[11:35] Mike Kayaker: OK, that's what I meant, jofline means not here
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Are those 10 lines script mantis reports tagged in a common way (or in a specific topic) to make them easy to find?
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: yeah, the mailing list is the best way in that case, imo.
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: find something in mantis always tricky. if people dont use the right word :O
[11:35] Mike Kayaker: well, the titles start with Vehicle...
[11:36] SignpostMarv Martin: brb, manually importing SL avie
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike, so the reports so far are all vehicle specific?
[11:36] Mike Kayaker: no, I had some others a few weeks ago..
[11:37] Mike Kayaker: Like a limitation of 0.5 seconds in llSetTimerEvent, turns out there is an ini setting for that
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure there is a 0.5 second limitation
[11:38] Mike Kayaker: I measured it.
[11:39] Mike Kayaker: Then someont told me how to change it in the INI file...
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[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: DONT STOP
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: This makes me think of a kids game, "Red light,Green light". :-0
[11:39] Mike Kayaker: That's going to fill up the log...
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what in isetting would that be?
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: this script is set for 0.01
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: for the timer
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we have log set for INFO here
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so script stuff is limited
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I can't see an ini setting for timers in the code
[11:41] Mike Kayaker: I was told ScriptDelayFactor=1.0 is 0.5 seconds, have not tested smaller values yet
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: at least on a casual look
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: oh hang on ,I see it
[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: timers have a 0.5 second minimum duration
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: MinTimerInterval
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya you do not want timers to be to small honestly
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: to prevent abuse, I expect
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but they also should not fail
[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: it was to limit AOs
[11:42] Mike Kayaker: I decided not to become dependant on shorter timers, so I didn't change this on my stand-alont sim.
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it really could be abused
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: with self replicating objects and such
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ehhe
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: all kinds of ways to abuse it i suppose
[11:43] Mike Kayaker: Adelle Fizgerald is who replied with info to my forum post about this.
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: you can get each simulation frame by using not_at_target() event
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: plugh: you're right about the ReadInt16 - I accidentlaly introduced that problem a few weeks ago - just corrected it
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry about that
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: There are ways around that anyway, though so it would only limit abuse by the clueless.
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: as long you dont have micorthreading, yes..
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: A high precision osFunction version with a higher threat level might be useful.
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: yeah - it 's no exactly hard to break opensim scripting :)
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: a timer faster than every simulation event is useless anyway
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: heh right
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: *simulation frame
[11:44] Mike Kayaker: 0.5 seconds is way lrger than the sim frame rate...
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:45] Mike Kayaker: In SL you usually can't get timers faster than 0.2 seconds.
[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: should probably limit timers to once per frame
[11:46] Mike Kayaker: that ould ba around 0.02 seconds!
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be hard due to the architecture
[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: usually around 9 frames /second
[11:46] Gennifer Eros: Hello all
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: hi gennifer
[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: effective frame rate for collision notifications is currently 11.23 frames per second
[11:46] SignpostMarv Martin: I'm not sure if you can deliberately fudge into the changed() event etc. in SL to get faster timers, most things manage to work fine with the constraint however.
[11:46] Qandy Saw: hey Genni
[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: 11? hmm my computers must be running slow
[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: justincc, ok thanks.
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[11:48] Mike Kayaker: One bug I submitted that has a bigger effect is a strange limit on how far a child prim can move away from the root.
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear that the differences between LL LSL and OpenSim's LSL are quite a big issue for people
[11:48] Mike Kayaker: mantis #5937
[11:48] Dahlia Trimble: OpenSim's is better :D
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: The ScriptDelayFactor is used to multipy requested times by that number. Not sure why you would want to use something other than 1.0 unless its for testing
[11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Depends on what functions you're using and if you're making your own script or just copying something from SL.
[11:49] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey smiles
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: There was a time when short timers in OS caused problems.
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: makes it hard to go back and forth though
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[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: otaku, a lot of people copy stuff from SL as is and that often leads to problems.
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[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: yeah, looks like some work needs to be done there
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: Scripts that utilize or work around bugs in SL's LSL are very likely to break and/or explode over here.
[11:50] SignpostMarv Martin: I remember needing to make a few syntax changes when porting scripts over
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Some are just badly written in the first places
[11:50] Gennifer Eros: SL scripts usually donr work here without being modded
[11:50] Mike Kayaker: Yeah, I putsh RIGHT UP AGAINST THE LIMIT in SL.
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's another issue - I don't think LSL is really tightly specified itself - especially inconjunction with the different behaviour of LL simulators
[11:50] SignpostMarv Martin: relatively minor stuff. none of what I was doing was vehicle or physics-based
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: I've copied many of my own scripts and they worked right off or only needed a slight tweak.
[11:50] Sarah Kline: there was a open domain lsl chess script but doesnt work here;..
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: i have that chessboard, at least open source one. and yes it dont work
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: there are some syntax issues as well which causepro blems
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I imagine there are lots of SL scripts that just simple will not work here
[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: ya physics is kinda different
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: someone have it, but seem shard code to udnerstand
[11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: SL's LSl is pretty organic... optimized for backwards compatibility with unexpected but highly exploited uses.
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: been around for a long time - just haven't got around to addressin gthem
[11:51] Sarah Kline: i guess its cos theres far more people coding for SL than here
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: well there are some things that mono/,net can just not handle
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that SL can
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: and how many code good ?
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: Oddly... I prefer writing for Xengine. It kinda forces cleaner scripts.
[11:52] SignpostMarv Martin: I think it's very rare that I've needed to make syntax changes to a script written for OpenSim when porting back to SL
[11:52] Allen Kerensky: nod Marcus
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: I cant recall off the top of my head now, Andrew might remember some of them
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: only things i use are examples from wike. and then you understand the code to use it.
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the major issue is with the script engine, I think
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: suspending scripts becomes inmpossible
[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol good code in SL. Ok, seriously there are some good coders but a lot of what I come across... :|
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: but a different script engine could do that
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Remember what?
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not to say those scripts that just don't work with a copy / paste can not be made to work, most could I have no doubt
[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: I wouldn't cry if XEngine's successor came along. :)
[11:53] Mike Kayaker: Remember, a bad coder can write FORTRAN in any language.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there was some things that LSL in SL can handle
[11:53] Sarah Kline: ^^
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: that mono could not
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i can not recall now what it was
[11:54] Allen Kerensky: some obscure number conversions
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mike: :-)
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i recall at one point running into it and you and I and Melanie discussing it at one point
[11:54] Allen Kerensky: I ran into some ISOC99 stuff that works in SL and doesn't in Xengine due to number casting
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but the specifics elude me now
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya it was something like that Allen
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: One SL workaround was that list l = (l = []) + anotherlist
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: yeah, that stuff should really be fixed sometime
[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: ewww
[11:55] Allen Kerensky: yeah I filed a Mantis on it at one point as an FYI
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I also remember the conclusion was that technically it shouldnt really work in SL
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, its been mantised
[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: Nesting functions, in general, gives rise to problems in XEngine. Little things like our ~ operator having different behavior.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and that it was just slop fix by LL
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, it joins the pile :)
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: ~ has different behaviuor? That's perverse
[11:55] Allen Kerensky: i hacked up a workaround anyway
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: there are some very horrible thigns LL did to LSL
[11:55] Mike Kayaker: There is a scopeing problem with local variables that have the same name as variables outside the func.
[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: There's a magtis on ~ somewhere...
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: stuff that if they actually fixed would break 1000's of scripts
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:56] Allen Kerensky: nod Mike - have to use different names in declarations sometimes
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: yeah - I think that might be a compilation issue
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I wouldn't mind digging in to the scripting engine one of these days if I can have enough free time
[11:56] Allen Kerensky: they had a really stupid sign error in the rotation functions
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: #3268.. that breaks a LOT of SL scripts here.
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it's a complex area
[11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: LL doing horrible things on the technical side. News story of the year. :)
[11:56] Mike Kayaker: I assume the scoping is a mono thing, can't be fixed.
[11:56] Allen Kerensky: honestly - I've found I prefer Xengine
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: this is probably the worst LL mistake of all
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lindogram
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: no, I thnk it can be fixed - I think it's a compilcation level issue
[11:57] SignpostMarv Martin: Mike: I think that can be solved with a scope-aware text replacement pass ?
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: interesting. That would some down to a syntax issue
[11:58] Mike Kayaker: Well, when scoping problems are pointed on in OS, I figure it is better code after I change the names.
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... it's an easy fix when you port over... if you're a scripter.
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: the parser must be missing a case
[11:59] Mike Kayaker: Back to my first issue, I just tried to edit the OSGrid wiki, it still won't let me. How can I get this fixed?
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: are you getting any specific error
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: should not have to do anything special
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: justincc, I know. Its why I know I would need lots of free time to dig in to it but I like playing with parsers.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty standard mediawiki setup
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: though you do have to verify your email account now
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: we require e-mail conf for accounts now, right?
[12:00] Mike Kayaker: Don't have permission because it is limited to users in the group: emailconfirmed
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: to prevent spam
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: right you must confirm your email, did you check your email for account verification?
[12:01] Mike Kayaker: Someone just looked and said I was confirmed in the DB
[12:01] Gennifer Eros: Does that mean you can noe get offline IM to email neb?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: who?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: very few people have DB access
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, mediawiki thinks Kayaker Magic is in the right group
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: oh hrmm
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey:
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Just found that terragen file loader is doing (mostly?) the right thing when loading in tile format. It swallows the alignment bytes. Since loader code was duped for loading from file, errors crept in there.
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: but I've never looked at this stuff before so I'm not sure if that's previsely correct
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: might need to ask coyled
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: Mike did you actually get the email
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and click the link?
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: is ther esome wiki page withj right mysql priveledges for opensim ?
[12:02] Mike Kayaker: Well, I created the account a wile ago and I'm not sure...
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: go here
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:02] Gennifer Eros: Neb?
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and see if there is a link to confirm email
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus:
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: Gennifer we do not have offline IM to email here on OSgrid
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely we will
[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: found that one already/. but found priveledge settings. but betetr read on more relaxed time
[12:03] Gennifer Eros: Ok, thank you
[12:04] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          729d901: 2012-06-02 05:03:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: aha so its just all
[12:04] Dahlia Trimble: lunch time for me, *hears stomach growl* bye all :)
[12:04] Gennifer Eros: Bye dahlia
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: bye Dahlia
[12:05] Pixel Tomsen: hi;-)
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hey Pixel
[12:06] Mike Kayaker: It says my email was confirmed 7 April 2012 at 06:36...
[12:06] Mike Kayaker: Must have reset the account recently.
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: and it says you're a member of emailconfirmed?
[12:07] Mike Kayaker: Oh wait, that is on the opensimulator forums, isn't the wiki on the osgrid forum?
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhh, two different wikis
[12:08] Mike Kayaker: That is the account I created years ago...
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: so are you talking about the osgrid wiki or the opensimulator wiki?
[12:09] Mike Kayaker: The osgrid wiki has an lsl function list that I want to edit. Nebadon is the major contributor to that
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not great that this stuff exists on both an osgrid and an opensimulator wiki
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I would have thought the opneimsulator wiki would be the better place
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: the opensimulator wiki is my usual goto for opensim specific LSL reference.
[12:10] Mike Kayaker: The lls pages here all refer to the SL LSL wiki, there is no local copy
[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: i really never look at the osgrid wiki ? is there more to see then ?
[12:11] Mike Kayaker: So Nebadon, you still here? Why is the only local LSL function Wiki on the osgrid pages?
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: well the OSgrid wiki was shut off for a very long time
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: because it was getting spammed to death
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: it was shut off for well over a year
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and I just have not had time honestly to add more to it
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: I hate to say it... but I often forget the OSGrid wiki exists. :P
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it would be better if common opensim stuff was on and the osgrid wiki be concerned with osgrid specific stuff
[12:12] Sarah Kline: agree
[12:12] Mike Kayaker: There is the old LSL Wiki, which is shut down to new contributions, the LL SL Wiki, which does not seem thr right place to put OpenSim specific stuff
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get going. Going to give the cat a walk, then me, before getting back to some other things I should be doing.
[12:13] Sarah Kline: bye Andrew
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew:: Are you suare you didn't mean to get a god?
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: er, dog? :)
[12:13] Gennifer Eros: Ok andrew, have fun
[12:13] Mike Kayaker: There is no LSL function documentation on, so I found the copy on osgrid...
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: having said that, I used to take my cat out on walks
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: justincc, the cat found us. Besides, I don't care that much for dogs.
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: THere is one other person who actually walks their cat around the neighbourhood. I just take mine around the garden or front of the house.
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: what about and all the pages off that?
[12:14] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves
[12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: if it's suitably licensed, I don't see any problem duplicating much of the rather useful info on LSLwiki on our wiki.
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: bye andrew
[12:15] Allen Kerensky: agreed - I moved my Myriad scripts from SL wiki to opensim wiki for the same reason
[12:15] Allen Kerensky: need to get the traffic coming opensim's way preferentially
[12:15] SignpostMarv Martin: I was under the impression it wasn't suitable licensed, or it didn't used to be as the SL Wiki editors were told not to copypasta from lslwiki at one point
[12:15] Marcus Llewellyn: LSLwiki is very useful... but also messy. It could use a reboot of some sort.
[12:15] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin rechecks
[12:16] SignpostMarv Martin:
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Cool.
[12:16] SignpostMarv Martin: "ince its inception, the LSL Wiki has followed an implicit copyright model: all wiki content may be freely copied, modified and distributed for noncommercial use. The exception to this is example scripts, which should be regarded as public domain, except where noted in the license attached to their source code."
[12:16] SignpostMarv Martin: I missed the leading s :P
[12:16] Mike Kayaker: The stiff there on opensimulator is a lsit of functions implimented, they all link to the LL SL Wiki for the function documentation
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: 'implicit' copyright model, great
[12:17] SignpostMarv Martin: justincc: the ambiguity is a pita ?
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I can se where that would make ll lawyers nervous :)
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: but for us not a big deal
[12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't think of LSLwiki is copy/paste from SL's wiki. And you can't copyright an API. ;)
[12:18] SignpostMarv Martin: the LL lawyers got nervous when I posted the TOS on the wiki so we could track changes with mediawiki diff :P
[12:18] Allen Kerensky: grin Marv
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: either way, if you wanted to put diffs on every functio npage you would need to get a page for every function into a wiki
[12:18] SignpostMarv Martin: :)
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: which could be done with some bot. Alternatively, it might be easie r(if messier) to have a single page listing the differences
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: though I appreciate there may be a large number of them
[12:19] SignpostMarv Martin: #fragment_links ?
[12:19] Qandy Saw: bye everyone, tc :)
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: bye qnady
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: qnady
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: qandy, ungh
[12:20] Qandy Saw: :)
[12:20] SignpostMarv Martin: toodles
[12:20] Allen Kerensky: could generate a template and populate it from the function signatures in the opensim source
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I need to be going myself
[12:20] Gennifer Eros: Night q
[12:20] Pixel Tomsen: I think missing the opensim wiki favor must, unfortunately, often catalyzed last updated documentation (not only for LSL, but for everything ...) .... I myself would agree to it in the German wiki version to try
[12:20] Allen Kerensky: that creates the stack of pages ready for sample scripts and such
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: yeah, there are many ways to do it if anyone cares to tackle it
[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: pixel: yes, if one doesn't link back to lsl wiki (and just copies/pastes doc) then one misses updates
[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: personally, I would prefer not to copy/paste existing doc
[12:21] Allen Kerensky: the lslint tool came with a script that read the viewer source and made a list of script prototypes from that
[12:21] Mike Kayaker: I'm not that wiki-literate, I'm only confident in my ability to make small changes, add new caviats., etc
[12:21] SignpostMarv MartinSignpostMarv Martin is wiki-literate but genreally doesn't produce user-friendly stuff :P
[12:22] Allen Kerensky: well, the opensim wiki has some nice upgrades recently
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the easiest way for now, then, would be just to have a single page listing differences
[12:22] Mike Kayaker: Are you volunterring Sighpost?
[12:22] SignpostMarv Martin: nooooooo
[12:22] Allen Kerensky: the source lang="lsl" tag for example
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: back sorry got phone calll
[12:22] Pixel Tomsen: wake up, neb lol
[12:23] SignpostMarv Martin: if you has questions you can poke me in #opensim-dev or #awg depending on how much attention I'm paying to Pidgin
[12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and do a few things myself
[12:23] Pixel Tomsen: ok, justin...
[12:23] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:24] SignpostMarv Martin: toodles
[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys around, thanks for the conversation
[12:24] Bea.Sting be well Justin
[12:24] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
[12:24] Pixel Tomsen: ;-)
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