Chat log from the meeting on 2012-05-29

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Revision as of 12:11, 29 May 2012 by Justincc (Talk | contribs)

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[11:06] Richardus RaymakerRichardus Raymakertape.. whaaaa. the never get the storage. indeed blue hdd's overrulled them in size and price
[11:06] Richardus RaymakerRichardus Raymakerhi viv
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: for now still make backup bewfoire i can redesign
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hey Viv_K something you might want to try with your Nvidia 560 in the nvidia control panel
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: enable FXAA
[11:06] VivK Lowlag: okay
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: you'll have to relog for it to take effect
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: but its a much more efficient form of AntiaAliasing
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: won't be major boost
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but it can help a little with AntiAliasing
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:07] Sarah Kline: Hi Justin
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: Hi Jcc
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I want to upgrade Nirans viewer
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: brb guys I am going to relog
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: .
[11:07] VivK Lowlag: okay wrote it down thanks for the tip
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: dos fxaa cost frames ?
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it should increase frame rate
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i don't think 2XX nvidias support it though
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ok brb
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: going to upgrade nirans viewer
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: under wich menu is it hidden in nvidia settings ?
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i can turn fxaa on
[11:09] VivK Lowlag: had an intersting chat with Armin today
[11:10] VivK Lowlag: if we can find 10 people that want to work on a totally opensim viewer he would keep work up on teapot
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats a tall order
[11:11] VivK Lowlag: true
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: ok fxaa is enabled. on GF275
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: at least it say "on"
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: It really sounds like very soon we are probably not going to be able to use the LL viewer in OpenSimulator anymore
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: 10 people to active develop?
[11:11] Sarah Kline: looks up
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: newer versions that is
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: what makes you say that?
[11:12] Sarah Kline: why
[11:12] VivK Lowlag: yes sir
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: oh, explain nebadon. because the hovak client side ?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like LL is going to be moving a lot of Havok stuff to the viewer
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: crap
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: more than what they have actually announced
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: and now ?
[11:12] Sarah Kline: oh yes
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: 10 active developers would be a tall order, 10 testers might be easier
[11:12] VivK Lowlag: 10 testers he has now
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant even think of 1 person who would be willing to do viewer development at this point
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: who already isnt involved in a viewer project
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: 10 testers for ? teapot ? or wich one ?
[11:13] VivK Lowlag: teapot Rich
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i have never tried teapot myself
[11:13] VivK Lowlag: sorry I'm lagging a bit
[11:13] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          b660c49: 2012-05-29 18:18:47 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: ok.. i have teapot installed. but not use it because some basic things where missing.. need to look again
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I have to say I am hooked on Nirans
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: but why can teapot solve the LL tic with havooc ?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but ya Last night I spent a few hours chatting with Maxwell Graf
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and he seems to think that real soon basically the LL TPV's are not going to be allowed for anything but SL anymore
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: he gets a lot of inside information, he is one of the top builders in SL
[11:15] Sarah Kline: there was a rumour about an agreement to be signed
[11:15] VivK Lowlag: well if he can't come up with the 10 he'll be sending all his opensim fixes to FS
[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: i can take a look at nirans
[11:15] VivK Lowlag: Hi Dahlia
[11:16] Sarah Kline: your pc would die richardous
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: so we will see, but from what it sounds like LL is going to be moving a lot of Havok stuff into the viewer
[11:16] BlueWall Slade: hopefully they don't do something like that'
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like they might potentially be trying to offload a lot of stuff from the simulators
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: it cant be worse then zen sarah
[11:16] BlueWall Slade: if they do, then I'm out of there
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now Nirans is a lot more stable than Zen is
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: and thats alreadyh pretty ok, only framerate not
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but from what it sounds like
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I can't blame them - doing physics server side is a huge bottleneck
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: any TPV group that signs the agreement with LL to get the havok stuff in their viewer
[11:17] VivK Lowlag: potentially be the final nail in the coffin for them
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: evil mind: would LL move havoc to client because the know SL is runnin emtpy :P
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that TPV project will no longer be allowed to connect to anything but SL
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: so I think for sure we can kiss Firestorm goodbye
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: from a recent post by Jessica Lyons Firestorm are talking to ll about that
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: possibly Nirans and Zen as well
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: so I wouldn't take this all as gospel yet
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: so LL is going to remove the command line parameters to for connecting ?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: no its certainly not been announced
[11:18] VivK Lowlag: how much code would be added to the viewer?
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but it certainly does not sound like things are leaning in our favor at this point
[11:18] Sarah Kline: we could only use ones before agreement
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but I also do not see it as a completely bad thing either
[11:18] BlueWall Slade: can fork where it is now and develop off that
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but I can tell you
[11:18] VivK Lowlag: some think the viewer as is in file size is too much
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: the LL viewer is going to change drasticlly soon
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: they are talking abotu specular and bump mappping
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: better lighting systems
[11:19] Sarah Kline: wow
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lots of havok stuff
[11:19] BlueWall Slade: those would probably work here ok
[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: theres a lot of physics you just cant do reliably client side in a model like SL, you cant collide reliably against something that hasnt rezzed in your viewer yet
[11:19] Sarah Kline: normal maps )
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are going to fully move physics to the viewer
[11:19] Richardus Raymaker: well i agree with nebadon. its good to finaly get away from LL code. the only problem is the development for opensim viewer.
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but Havok does a lot more than just collisions too though
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: you can only really do viewer effects that physics can help with
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: scene physics all need to be server side
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya regardless though, any TPV group that signs this agreement
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that viewer will only be allowed to connect to SL
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: is my understanding
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: and thats really the issue
[11:21] Sarah Kline: sounds like somthing they would do
[11:21] Dahlia Trimble: even if you can get by the rezzed object problem, theres still communication lag and synchronization problems
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: That means they have to take away the loginuri
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: right, it sounds potentially like that might be what happens
[11:21] Richardus Raymaker: so, [ -loginuri -loginpage -helperuri --multiple ] this is bocked in the future ?
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: probably just a hard coded list of SL approved grids
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ie beta grid etc..
[11:22] Sarah Kline: maybe people will make patched viewers
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody could still recompile a viewer with loginuri
[11:22] Arielle Popstar: sounds to me like LL is worrying about Opensim then
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they can't Sarah
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: and then distributed it without the havok library
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they would loose their TPV status
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: if they do
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: thats the whole point of signing the agreement
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it dpeneds if they care and what they're silling to sign
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they could even be potentially opening themselves up to breach of contract law suit
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: willing
[11:22] VivK Lowlag: why would LL be worried about opensim?
[11:22] Sarah Kline: I mean a 4th party )
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: ariell +, thats how it feels for me
[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think the havok library is only for pathfinding development, like visualizing the navigation mesh
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: I don't think they care about OpenSim
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its Havok
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I still can't imagine any tpv project willingly signing up to something that could get them personally sued
[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: you dont need it for normal use
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Havok makes you sign exlusivity deals about licensing
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: because they dont have to lose all their business to us before it starts to hurt
[11:23] Arielle Popstar:
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: once they start loading up the viewer with havok libraries
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I actually rather doubt it. We're nothing more than a pimple on a spot
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it technocally is on a Project to Project basis
[11:23] VivK Lowlag: this is a business?
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its a project
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Havok does per project licensing
[11:23] Sarah Kline: they probably see opensim as becoming a threat
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: we are not part of SL
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: whatever for them it is a business
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thus it can not be used for OpenSimulator
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I think linden are much more worried about trying to preserve their business
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, i see thae last time more empty places and sims disapear. reason econemy or .....
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: how much business did they lose from educators leaving LL for opensim alternative?
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: general indifference is far more of a threat to them than we are
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: I think LL might be trying to make their User base smaller
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but more active
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: i dont agree Justin
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: they are trying to shed a few 100 pounds of flab
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: i think we aRE MORE A THOURN THEN YOU THINK
[11:25] Richardus Raymaker: justin, so the are still worried about opensim. becuase that hurt there business
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I really doubt it
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: cap0s sorry
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, there is nothing that really justifies that
[11:25] Richardus Raymaker: many arielle
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: if you took all the commercial OpenSim grids
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i bet their profits all combined together
[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: we probably augment their business as well as threaten it
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: is less than 1% of LL's business profits
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the grids that are directly competing with LL anyway
[11:25] Sarah Kline: but if they put more client side it takes load off their servers so they dont have to upgrade them maybe
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: how many standalones out there used to e $300 regions to them?
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: LL want to be a gaming platform..
[11:26] Sarah Kline: they have a lot of them )
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: sarah: it would be aiming to improve the experience
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: a new facebook is maby betetr word in 3d
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: they have lost 1000 regions this year according to reports
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: but they have a problem because of the open-source nature of the viewer
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, the LL region count has not fallen significantly
[11:26] Sarah Kline: yes
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its stayed pretty static for some time
[11:26] BlueWall Slade: if they put more in the viewer, then it puts more on the client's network which could toatall screw them
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: for every region that gets shut down a new one starts up
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it has fallen though - which is far worse than being static or even growing
[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: Arielle to many to count
[11:26] Dahlia Trimble: how many people used to be able to afford $300/month before the economy tanked?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya a bit, but its not been horribly bad either
[11:27] BlueWall Slade: not me
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think in this industry once you start declining you don't grow again
[11:27] BlueWall Slade: the mainland maps are more yellow than not
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: if you ask me I think LL is trying to make themeselves more lean
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: i dont feel it is just the economy
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: there is now an alternative to LL
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: they are looking to reduce the load on their simulators
[11:27] Sarah Kline: I wouldnt want them to fold
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: so they can run more simulators per machine and be more profitable
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but the fact also remains Justin
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: that even with them loosing regions
[11:28] BlueWall Slade: they should try to consolidate all the used land into fewer regions with some land swap
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: they are still maintaining very high profits
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: who says?
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen recent estimates ranging from 70-120 million a year in profits
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: where you see that Ne?
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, more LL region on 1 server. well where'smy lag hardhat..
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: there was an article not long ago, unfortunately i didnt keep it
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: saw it on twitter or something, maybe G+
[11:28] VivK Lowlag: facebook ipo was $35-$38
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i cant recall exactly where I saw it now
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I'm not sure how much store I would put on such stuff
[11:28] VivK Lowlag: hehe
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: LL is so laggy i think they are short on servers
[11:29] Allen Kerensky: NWN or Tateru's Dweel On It had an article
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: FB is 29.90ish right now
[11:29] Sarah Kline: i saw it too
[11:29] BlueWall Slade: I don't put much stock in anything I hear about SL, lol
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: LL has something has an incredible amount of hardware
[11:29] Allen Kerensky: I'd bet LL put in region idle to drive up consolidation and drive down cost per rack
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: ut not online i suspect
[11:29] Sarah Kline: must be huge
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: but to get back to the viewers. how or wh and where is developing now opensim viewerr. or start todo ?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: of course, LL is certainly always looking to lower their costs
[11:30] BlueWall Slade: sure
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: well Richardus, even if LL makes that change
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: which might be by end of year early next year
[11:30] VivK Lowlag: if is the word for the moment
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its not like all viewers are cut off
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: now it is at the expense of the user experience
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we still have very useable viewers
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i do not think LL is cutting off the source code
[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: there are a lot of regions in SL with a LOT of scripts wasting CPU and nobody is there. I dont blame them for trying to reduce it
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes allen i hav eread that to, LL is turning sim down in speed when there's nothing going on in that region
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its just if you want the Havok stuff in your TPV viewer
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: then your project can only connect to LL
[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: fly around mainland and watch stats.. its horrible
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: they are not totally cutting off the source codfe
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so its possible we could come up with our own libraries
[11:31] Sarah Kline: right
[11:31] BlueWall Slade: heh, they do have some lag there
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and maintain a new project
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so its not the end of the world
[11:31] BlueWall Slade: it seems to come & go in waves
[11:31] Sarah Kline: could be a good thing
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but it could mean some of the bigger proects like Firestorm
[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: but, besides i ga,mble on armin, most devs with viewers still aim for SL
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: no longer work with OpenSim
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: we c an get the havok stuff if not commercial
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: we will see, it's certainly not a done deal yet
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i really doubt it Arielle
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the free havok is not the full havok package
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: read the link
[11:32] Allen Kerensky: what deal is that?
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: and i know people who are talking about allowing it for opensim
[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: the havok library is only really supporting havok pathfinding and the chance of opensim getting havok pathfinding are pretty nil I would think
[11:32] Allen Kerensky: what did LL sort of announce today?
[11:32] VivK Lowlag: if you look back at the track record of when they announce to the point it's implemented it maybe some time before it happens
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: a tpv having to disable login to any non-sl grid if they sign up to ship a havok dll
[11:33] Allen Kerensky: ugh
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its not been announced today, but last night I was speaking with Maxwell Graf
[11:33] Allen Kerensky: closed source for the fail
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: so i guess thats around 90% of the viewes !?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and he brought it up to me
[11:33] BlueWall Slade: is there a working mesh encoder in OpenSource?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: he is a very active person in SL
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: probably one of the best builders in SL right now
[11:33] Allen Kerensky: Cool VL Viewer uploads mesh
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: well, all this is nothing new
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: cant stand that name.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no, its not new
[11:34] Allen Kerensky: i am sure many others do
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but he was telling me that there are things LL is working on that are coming soon
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: we knew this stuff was being discussed when the draft havok agreement was published
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: that they have not announced yet
[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: ya they have some sekrit stuff in the works Im sure. They like to do that ;)
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i only know LL is wroking on the gameing tools..
[11:35] Allen Kerensky: so all the new pathfinding is being offloaded to client - might be a simple way to API around it and use some other A* library
[11:35] BlueWall Slade: I would think that the SL opensource channels would be flooded with discussions about it already
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes, alot of the stuff is to make SL more game platform friendly
[11:35] Allen Kerensky: have to see what they really release first
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya, this stuff is not all going to hit all at once
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: the pathfinding is not client side, visualizing the navigation mesh is a client feature. pathfinding doesnt really need it
[11:35] Allen Kerensky: the LSL calls are not even stable yet
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: were talking about lots of differnt things happening over many months, the next year should be interesting, and don't get me wrong, I personally do not think its a bad thing
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: time to build a shelter, and be prepared for soem bumps
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I'm not sure how much stuff gets out in the open nowadays - the ll opensource-dev list is pretty quiet nowadays
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: and then there is the backward compatibility aspect sllowing them down
[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: and there are possible alternatives to visualizing a navigation mesh without havok libraries
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it all depends on what things this bavok stuff does
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: so in simple way, LL demand firestorm to agree with new TPV. or you get lots os noise in sl. and some other viewers is the same
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: as dahlia says, I'm not sure it's possible to move physics client side under this model
[11:37] Allen Kerensky: and what is to stop a TPV from having/shipping 2 forks - one with havok and no non-SL login, and a havokless one with all grid logins?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: LL really needs to do some pretty drastic stuff if they are to survive
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so none of this should really be too shocking
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: I think that's what firestorm are discussing with ll
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: thought their profits were so high?
[11:37] BlueWall Slade: they started downhill when they killed OGP
[11:37] Allen Kerensky: yeah seems reasonable tack to me
[11:37] BlueWall Slade: :)
[11:37] Allen Kerensky: and yes I miss VWRAP
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that certainly could happen Allen, but in the past and present, Firestorm has not been very Pro OpenSimulator
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: their focus has always been SL first
[11:38] BlueWall Slade: VWRAP was just talk OGP was real
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSimulator way down on the list
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: Agree with justing, if the move phyics to client. to fix 1 problem and create a new one
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey shouts: nebadon:
[11:38] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I guess most of the TPV don't care about OpenSim at all
[11:38] Allen Kerensky: physics in client would be a mess as far as synchronization unless they moved to a p2p update model - and that's a security nightmare
[11:38] Sarah Kline: cant blame them really SL has far greater userbase
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i always cring someone someone posts a sluniverse link
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: so firestorm apparantly are saying that they will provide two versions of firestorm, one for ll and another for opensim
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: gotta get on my drama hat
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:39] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey shrugs
[11:39] Sarah Kline: lol
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well thats good then
[11:39] Allen Kerensky: other TPVs may follow suit as long as LL doesn't block it
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: they certainly have enough people involved to make it happen
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: some of the smaller projects, hard to say which direction they will go
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: the 1 man bands
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: "Sarah Kline: cant blame them really SL has far greater userbase" LOL, 60000 bots ?
[11:40] VivK Lowlag: what's the possibility Bullet be up and running before the changes?
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: low
[11:40] Sarah Kline: that would be nice
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say, Intel seems distracted with other things
[11:40] Allen Kerensky: just needs willing devs
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I tried bullet last night on a region load and it blew up on startup
[11:40] Sarah Kline: shame i saw some super demos
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: really thats odd Justin
[11:40] BlueWall Slade: what is better about bullet over ODE?
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: heh, doesn't everything
[11:41] BlueWall Slade: is ODE broken in some way?
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: threading for one bluewall
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: well the 1 man hands can betetr follow opensim. thats not changeing so fast
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is single thread
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: bullet apprantly performs better
[11:41] Allen Kerensky: nodnod Justin sad but true - never enough geniuses around when you want em
[11:41] VivK Lowlag: Hi Andrew
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: with my testing i can get around 400-500 physical spheres and it crashes hard
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Hi, VivK
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: stack trace
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: in Bullet i can get 4000-5000
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and it doesnt crash, it just becomes so lagged its unuseable
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: are the 64bit problem more ironed out of opensim. or still can expect red lines ?
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet handles memory and threading much better
[11:42] BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: its not limited to 1 core like ODE is
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Did it again. PDA beeped to remind me of meeting and got distracted before I could get here and almost forgot all about the meeting
[11:42] Allen Kerensky: really need something with more OpenCL/CUDA integration too =)
[11:42] BlueWall Slade: how baout the "engines" inside?
[11:42] BlueWall Slade: they're comparible?
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: from what I hear OpenCL is just not very doable
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and CUDA, also hard to say
[11:42] Allen Kerensky: just mentioned it since AMD is pretty opensource friendly
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: PhysX is possible
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet is way more popular than all of those combined though
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: How is Bullet coming along these days?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of Video game exposure
[11:43] Allen Kerensky: Bullet worked fine for my lightly loaded regions when I used it a few months ago just to see
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet should work, but there are issues with Avatar movement
[11:44] Allen Kerensky: i need to enable it on my kids grid to give it a real workout
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: does not support physical linksets yet
[11:44] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: also Hollows are not 100%
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: mega prims can be wierd
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: it needs quite a bit of work before it can be a full on ODE replacement
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but performance and stability are great
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly just funcitonality at this point
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i have had a very difficult time making bullet crash though
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ODE i can make crash quite easily
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: 1 parameter
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: also ODE seems to use a lot more memory
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: but i think its more some missing protection between opensim and ode.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: almost 10 times more memory than bullet
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: when doing prim drops
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, unfortunateloy for me it cashes on starutp
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is odd
[11:46] Sarah Kline: it was ok for me
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: do you recall the crash message?
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: stack traces
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't record them unfortunately, I may go back and do that
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but a problem that reaches into the native code
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok, ya i will have to try again myself
[11:46] Sarah Kline: I think i got some red stuff but it carried on loading )
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest I have not done enough testing on Linux with it
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: though it probably originate opensim-side
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i did most of my testing on windows in standalone
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: you were testing on windows?
[11:47] BlueWall Slade: does Bullet run on 64 bit Linux?
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, that would be a difference
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have tested it on linux, but not as much as on windows
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: yes, that's where I was crashing
[11:47] Sarah Kline: hi Doro
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: but it could be due to the speicfic region load in this case
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: it should run on Linux, we did spend some time fixing that up
[11:47] Dorothea Lundquist: hi Sarah and hi all :)
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but perhaps something is wrong again recently
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dorothea
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: H Dorothea
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its been a month or more since I tried
[11:47] BlueWall Slade: Hello
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hasn't changed a lot recently
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi doro
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly not within the month
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i need to get Virtualbox up and running on my new machien
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: so i can get some linux vm's rolling
[11:48] Allen Kerensky: Fedora 17 "Beefy Miracle" is out with some new KVM virtualization bits in it I want to check out this week
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: we seem to be getting a lot of lag spikes here today
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: more than usual
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: this is running git master btw
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i updated about 30 minutes before meeting
[11:49] BlueWall Slade: I have noticed TP taking a little longer than normal
[11:49] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          b660c49: 2012-05-29 18:18:47 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: ages to log in sometimes
[11:49] BlueWall Slade: had one fail earlier
[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: does KVM do 3d acceleration yet?
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:49] Allen Kerensky: not sure - I mostly do text console stuff with it - sorry
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i don't have any experience with KVM
[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: linux + mono lost here :O
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: KVM usually gives direct access to hardware
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: inventory takes forever to load on any region but the plazas
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so i imagine if any of them do, KVM probably does
[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: only one Ive seen so far is virtualbox
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ive had done almost no virtualization as linux with the base
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: its all been on windows for me
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: the virtualbox 3d acceleration is pretty limited too
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it only works with Windows VM's
[11:51] BlueWall Slade: I have a 32 bit VB for building viewers running on Linux
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: no linux support for it yet
[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: Ive played games in windows running in virtualbox on linux host, it worked pretty well but SL is really slow
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: VM's are nice. but it seems VB with windows , then bridge only works with dhcp
[11:52] BlueWall Slade: I just build them on it, then scp to the 64 bit host
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: Och dahlia, windows in VM thats slow
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: bridge is the best method for networking in virtualbox
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: everthing else is a real pain in the ass
[11:52] Dahlia Trimble: some games worked quite well RIchardus
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: under linux yes, with windows it still give me headaces becuase i always used a static ip
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: you can use static IP in bridge
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i do it all the time
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: it fails here, i lose the gateway etc.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: you need to manually enter all that yourself
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: its getting somewhere terrible wrong
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i do, i can dream that. it fails its trying to use soem host ip data
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: so when i have time i try it the right way, assign static ip from router dhcp
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: any reasons for the long log in times recently?
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wat. i think the VM cannot handle different gateway then the host.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I have not noticed any change Arielle, so i can not say
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: logging in here today seemed fine for me
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: long log ?
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: ohh ...
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: ibeen ngitorres
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: from the log I see one client is making continual requiests for the same mesh for some reason
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: not seen any problems. only think linux server a bit faster with TP then windows
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: do you have a lot of HG friends on your friends list?
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: seeing it for a few weeks now
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I need to add ip information to 'show circuits'
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: you cant see wich viewer ?
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: no
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: uh
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: thats Arielle Justin
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: making those requests
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps thats part of your problem Arielle
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your wearing mesh stuff?
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: whats that?
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: mesh clothing
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: man: we have too many different commands :)
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: mesh cap, shirt , pants ?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your avatar appears to be making lots of spew on the sim console
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: about a mesh
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your probably wearing
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: i dont think so but if i have mesh then its only the last day i been wearing this ouutfit
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. I thought of one thing I can mention that others might be interested in
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its very possible this is why maybe your seeing long log in times
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and were not
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: somethign your wearing
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: so on eye i dont see any mesh :O
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: would need to test that theory
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: the slow logins been happening for a while and i am not the only one
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not sure, this is first I am hearing about it
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and like I said, have not experience it myself
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: could be a geographical issue
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: where in the world are you Arielle?
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: canada
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: ontario]
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: well, for some reason your viewer is continually requesting the same mesh from the simulator
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i see slow logs with zen as example and sl2 viewers. arielle can you try sometime tyo log with sl1 ? and see if that works fatser
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle: YOu are in the same general area as me
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: but i have not always slow logs
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: singularity seems to work fine or i dont notice
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: on phoenix 1.60
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is its something network related, but I can not be 100% certain of that
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I am very close to the servers
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: so could be why i never experience it
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: network latency and packet loss could play a big factor though
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: even the simulators your logging into could play a factor
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: and i see ping at 2100 atm
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: like when I log in to Avination
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: stuff is very very slow for me
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but all those servers are in france
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: 2100ms would be unusable
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: im like 6000 miles from the servers
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: i am standing still ;)
[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: high ping means most times its still loading the sim
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I've started to convert the Visual Basic test program for Warp3D to C# so we can have a way to test/debug Warp3D and make it easy/easier to get to the bottom of its bugs and memory leaks.
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: your getting 2100ms ping right now Arielle?
[12:01] BlueWall Slade: so, if the viewer were performing part of the simulation - where would that leave the rest of the users in the sim?
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: 4133
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: dang
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well thats your problem
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: no wonder
[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: nice andrew i love it (on windwos)
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i am surprised you can even get logged in
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: with it that high
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: to do snything like that would need massive protocol and arch changes. I find it very hard to see that happening
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: arielle , you have bandwidth in viewer not higher then 500 ?
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: Neb, the slow loging have been happening for a few pink isually around 122 to the plazas
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: 750 works fine to , but preffer 500 still
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i am getting like 50-60ms right now
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ping which machine?
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm in Ontario Canada if you want another ping time
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: what is your ping currently Andrew?
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: and have you seen long log in times?
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its viewer related
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: what viewer are you using Arielle?
[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: phoenix 1.6.0 i think neb
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: I didn't have long log in to here today. What should I try pinging?
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: i use different viewer regularly though mostly phoenix
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: oh the ping in the viewer andrew
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: also zen, singularity
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ctrl+shift+1
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: sure you dont ahve a bad wire arielle ?
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortunately I do not have any good answer right now Arielle
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: honestly this is the 1st I am hearing of it
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: no one else has mentioned it to me
[12:04] logger sewell: I'm running about 70 to 75 with imp
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: ok
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon oh
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: let me pull up the states
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: 185ms
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: i have heard some others mention it in lbsa and some friends elsewhere too
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: 190ms
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: 160ms here. but i need to cross a whole ocean
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: bouncing between those two
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya well its not suprising
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: the internet is a fickle beast
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: some days its great, others it sucks
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid will never be 100% perfect all the time for everyone
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: the downside of a fully open self hosting grid
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: also sl is not 100% perfect..
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes its just going to suck
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: 50% of the time its outside of our control
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: i started seeing more and more problems since the release after the one in early march
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa is probably going to be worse than most places especially
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: am still suprissed that apache got nuts this week nebadon
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: you could have 4-5 people logging in simultaneously
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: i still tend to revert to that one when running my regions
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: in which case, its not going to be as fast as it would if only 1 person were logging in
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i find that when an avatar logs out or teleports away
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: it can be pretty harsh too
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: "" 
Niran’s viewer: return of the sidebar"" brrr. but its not so bad as sounds i think
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: there is no side bar in Nirans
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and do some stuff.
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: kk Justin
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: oh should mention that it is especially apparent on relogins after a crash
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: See you guys around.
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: soon it is
[12:08] logger sewell: tc Justin
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Man, my frame rate sucks
[12:08] BlueWall Slade: you can install "mtr" to help test your network
[12:08] Dorothea Lundquist: Bye Justin
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: 5.5fps
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ah Arielle, now that I have seen
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: tc Justin
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: infact sometimes after I crash
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: the next login fails completely
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: that is normal
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and not new
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, I've seen strange things like that
[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: my idea is that coms between regions are going sometimes still wrong.
[12:09] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
[12:09] Allen Kerensky: Arielle it can take 1-10 mins for TCP connections to time out which can affect relogin I think
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: didnt used to be
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