Chat log from the meeting on 2012-05-08

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[10:02] VivK LowlagVivK LowlagHi Bluewall
[10:02] Richardus RaymakerRichardus Raymakerhello pepsi
[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi viv
[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: I finally got around to trying Battlefield 3, it came with my video card for free
[10:02] VivK Lowlag: Hey Rich, Taarna
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: man
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: talk about ridiculous
[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: whoops. why is the balloon not start with name
[10:03] Taarna Welles: Hello hello :)
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: the graphics are insane
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: shame LL cant do something that good
[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: Hello Justin
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus, nebadon, folks
[10:03] VivK Lowlag: hi Justin
[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: be happy nebadon. otherwise osgrid runs empty :)
[10:03] BlueWall Slade: hi
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: I did region cleanup today
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: dropped about 3000 regions
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:04] BlueWall Slade: lol
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect a bunch will come back
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: aha
[10:04] Taarna Welles: ah good
[10:04] Taarna Welles: I had 2 dead sims
[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of them are place holders, moats
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: yes port azure is nu dead
[10:04] Taarna Welles: so thanx
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: ah that sucks Richardus
[10:04] VivK Lowlag: Hi Sarah
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: it was nice you made some videos
[10:04] Sarah Kline: hiyas
[10:04] Sarah Kline: hi all
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: to preserve it
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: well thats still a shame that you have place holders. cant fidn a trick to avoid that ?
[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: not really
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah
[10:05] BlueWall Slade: hello
[10:05] Sarah Kline: ^^
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm I just noticed I am not connected to voice
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: taarna it where dead for some weeks
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya was disabled in viewer
[10:05] Taarna Welles: I haven't sort out yet but is it possible to be an estate owner and load an OAR on the name of your alt avatar?
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: you dont run it automatic nebadon ?
[10:06] VivK Lowlag: any idea for a fix for time zones?
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: I guess it got disabled when I upgraded Zen
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: though still not connecting yet
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: still not turned mine on :O
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: justin ?
[10:06] BlueWall Slade: does Zen connect to the profiles thing? did they use that?
[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: ?
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: I don't know BlueWall
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ioh yes
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: it does
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: how nice
[10:07] BlueWall Slade: cool
[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: profiles thing?
[10:07] Sarah Kline: web profiles
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya it loads web profiles properly now
[10:07] BlueWall Slade: I have been digging in Django creating something to test and develop against
[10:07] VivK Lowlag: web based profiles
[10:07] Sarah Kline: you know the slow things
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: If your not using Zen viewer Justin you should be
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: its awesome
[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, so a django based profiles site?
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: its the best v3 viewer there is
[10:08] BlueWall Slade: to start with yet
[10:08] BlueWall Slade: yes*
[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: question, it looks like you still need shutdown_commands.txt -> backup to store data before you shutdown. iwhen testing i always shutdown the region and next time the same linkset where back in old state. finaly typed manual backup in console and after that not seen it revet. so i pulled shutdown_commands.txt back in the directory
[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I probably should be. I tend to stick with stock viewers since then I know what gets broken
[10:08] VivK Lowlag: the latest strip of nvidia was disappointing
[10:08] BlueWall Slade: I'm doing it in that first, thenm will make some phph libs
[10:08] Sarah Kline: shes made good progress with it
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: well the good thing about Zen
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: she updates it often
[10:08] VivK Lowlag: shadows stink in Zen now
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: so its very close to the stock code
[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: that shouldn't be the case at all
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: shadows look perfect to me
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: make sure your on the latest viewer
[10:09] Sarah Kline: she did a fix for it
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: interesting
[10:09] VivK Lowlag: did you get the latest?
[10:09] BlueWall Slade: when I get ready to jump back to viewer dev. I should base off that one
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, it sucks on my screen. i have nu background behind the buttons so you see the world but not the text and buttons, same with pie
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: justin, thats what i expected to. but it seems to fail
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: odd, sounds like driver issue maybe
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i use the same driver as yours
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: only dx10
[10:10] VivK Lowlag: she added an entry in to the settings.xml to change opacity in the pie Rich
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: oh then thats new. because slider everything failed still last time
[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: looks like zen is windows only?
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: it might be worth downgrading to older drivers
[10:10] VivK Lowlag: currently it's set to .85
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: oooh shit ya I keep forgetting its windows only
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: grr
[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: k
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: wich version you run viv
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i need to put a sticky on my monitor or something
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i keep telling people on linux to use it
[10:11] VivK Lowlag: Armin has tutorial on building a v3
[10:11] BlueWall Slade: lol
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, half of me is on windows but I wuld prefer a cross-platform viewer
[10:11] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya me too
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: but
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: ooh cool. Got a link?
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: Zen works so well
[10:11] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, older drivers are bad in framerate
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i can't not use it
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: it really works well for me
[10:11] VivK Lowlag: Neb do you have a link to Armin's teapot?
[10:12] Richardus Raymaker: but does she have a setting for the buttonbar to ?
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: I still don't think its ever crashed on me once
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm
[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec let me look at his twitter
[10:12] VivK Lowlag: it would be a viable alternative
[10:12] BlueWall Slade: Dahlia is troubleshooting today!
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I occasionally toy with the idea of taking a stock linden viewer and stripping off all the linden-specific parts and adding opensim-specific patches
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'll never have the time for that and I would probably be better off helping some existing viewer project
[10:13] Dahlia TrimbleDahlia Trimble is shooting pathfinding NPCs today ;)
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt it be hard to keep maintaining that code?
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: you can not build a viewer with C# i guess ? lol
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol you could
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I would never both updating - I would just wait for the next linden viewer to come out and then reaplpy/adapt the patches
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect tehre would be lots of performance issues
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: er bother. unless by updating you mean updating versions
[10:14] BlueWall Slade: what kind of linden specific things?
[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: but why would that be?
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: right i mean keeping up to date with LL code
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: hmmm, maybe not that so much as stuff like your profiles patch, etc.
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: I meant with a C# viewer Justin
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: though it sounds like that's already incorporated into zen
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: the performance issues
[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: against better knowledge installing zen
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I would ignore them
[10:14] Sarah Kline: all the market stuff and buy lindens stuff ect
[10:14] BlueWall Slade: maybe they'll take patches for them when they're ready
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going for the galss half empty approach ;)
[10:15] BlueWall Slade: then they can maintain it :p
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Ya i dunno, i guess it would be a good experiment to see how far you could take it
[10:15] BlueWall Slade: after all - we're the LL R&D lab
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: but eventually your going to have to stay up to date with LL
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: even if just for bug fixes and hardware issues
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I really don't think they will take it. After all, they'[ve already stated that supporting other grids is not in their use case
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, so when LL release the next version I would rebase the patches
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: a
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya*
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't attempt to keep up between versions
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya that makes sense
[10:16] BlueWall Slade: they have code full of "non-production" things
[10:16] BlueWall Slade: so I keep hope
[10:16] BlueWall Slade: if they don't then we can make bots foe an occupy movement :)
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it's quite pie in the sky though - it's enough just trying to improve the server side
[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: urgh, the menu''s have way more opacity in new version
[10:17] Sarah Kline: be nice if we had a viewer of our own with an improved avatar 2.0
[10:17] VivK Lowlag: settings.xml Rich
[10:17] Richardus Raymaker: but still the button bar is nniot fixt
[10:17] Richardus Raymaker: ok. thats next step
[10:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Supposedly LL is gonna reweight the current avatar. That should help some.
[10:17] VivK Lowlag: slap a lawsuit on LL's then
[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: reweight?
[10:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... the vertex weights.
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: you mean bone weights?
[10:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Yuppers
[10:18] Sarah Kline: so we wont stretch and distort so much
[10:18] VivK Lowlag: find a good lawyer in the states and bring up the Americans with disabilities laws
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: why bother when the model is so crappy to begin with
[10:18] Richardus Raymaker: the opacity prolem is zen only :O
[10:18] Sarah Kline: they cant break content
[10:19] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm not fan of the model. But I can understand why they feel they're stuck with it, and why the made it in the ways they did to accomdate as much deformation as it does.
[10:19] Marcus Llewellyn: And we do have the option of using our own avatar mesh now.
[10:19] Sarah Kline: it was a step up from the primatar
[10:21] Dahlia Trimble: why not just make a new avatar and let people make new content
[10:21] BlueWall Slade: anybody been keeping up with the Oracle-Google stuff this week?
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: whats going on there ?
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: a little BlueWall, it doesnt sound good
[10:22] BlueWall Slade: the courts have ruled that apis are copyrightable
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: if Oracle wins, man that would be really bad
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: Vaguely
[10:22] BlueWall Slade: they can buy 2 expensive sailboats
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: The damages don't sound very high but the principle is pretty bad
[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: opacity seems to fail still. and changed pie to 0.95
[10:22] Marcus Llewellyn: You can. Any of us can, Dahlia. :) And people went nuts insisisting that stuff must fit the old avatar or the SL economy will go up in flames. So then came Qarl's deformer. No one wanted to design around unique meshes.
[10:22] BlueWall Slade: but, LL have released things to encode/decode llsd under apache license
[10:23] BlueWall Slade: so, that should keep us ok.
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I think in Googles, case they made some bad assumptions
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: why the hell Google didnt buy Sun is beyond me
[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: well the new avatars that anyone can make now are compromised because they cang be morphed
[10:23] BlueWall Slade: they should go with xamarin
[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: patents, the are so evil
[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: *cant
[10:23] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Bluewall
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: they could have bought sun and sold everything but Java to Oracle
[10:24] BlueWall Slade: screw java
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I think Google would then be very nerous of Microsoft :)
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: Oracle may have one against google, but they just commited virtual suicide if you ask me
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: one=won
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: what a stupid fight
[10:24] VivK Lowlag: in the end the Lawyers win
[10:25] BlueWall Slade: if organizations would hire smart people and let them make decisions, Oracle wouldn't exist
[10:25] Richardus Raymaker: so, still cant recommend zen. not at all
[10:25] Dahlia Trimble: oracle nas a LOT of long term contracts with big businesses that are very dependant on their products
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: I think google is way more friendly than Oracle is at this stage
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: Microsoft has way more to loose I guess
[10:25] Dahlia Trimble: theyll be around for a while
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: Oracle has never really give a shit
[10:25] BlueWall Slade: thatnks to "suits"
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: err I mean I think MIcrosoft is way more friendly than Oracle is
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: especially to Linux
[10:26] VivK Lowlag: it's your fault Rich then if you don't make feature requests on her bitbucket account
[10:26] BlueWall Slade: anyways, I was thinking about the LL apis and how we use them
[10:26] Sarah Kline: Face it Richardous you will never find a viewer you like ever lol
[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: mmmmmmmmm
[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: i made a report. and a few days later iut where complete gone
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: well to be honest BlueWall
[10:26] Dahlia Trimble: well somehow I dont think oracle owns the copyright for SQL anyway ;)
[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: so i dont like zen at all
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: Android is like billions of dollar industry
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: it sort of makes sense Oracle wants a peice
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: oracle actually has a linux distro, whilst microsoft has called linux a cancer
[10:27] VivK Lowlag: funny I never saw it and I monitor it by the day
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: LL on the other hand would probably loose money in any kind of law suits against OpenSimulator
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: lol, yeah - if it werent, they wouldn't be in such legal problems
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: the only reason to do that would be to shut things down
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya which would still cost them money
[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: zen is just the only viewer that have that bad design. i think he dropped some important code
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: it all goes back to iPhone - google's issues
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the possible reputation damage is more important
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus i 100% disagree with you
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: if you have a problem file a bug report with Zen viewer
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: you can't keep complaining about something if you havent filed a bug report
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: Zena is very responsive to issues
[10:28] Marcus Llewellyn: People can't say "Zen" without you complaining to death about this, Rich. We get it, You don't like Zen. Don't use it.
[10:28] VivK Lowlag: bug reports are the quickest way to get things fixed
[10:28] Sarah Kline: But dont hassle her to death
[10:29] BlueWall Slade: << or patches :)
[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: i made a bug report, and it disapear into smoke
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: just file a report attach some screenshots
[10:29] VivK Lowlag: maybe you didn't put in the captcha
[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: i removed the viewer already
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: on Bitbucket?
[10:29] Sarah Kline: Cant you use Imprudence or Hippo?
[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: well sofar i remeber it confirmed..
[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: sarah, no mesh. singularity for now
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: well File another one if its gone thats all I can say really
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it will never get fixed
[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: who makes zen? Ive never tried it
[10:30] VivK Lowlag: Zena Juran
[10:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Zena Juran.... one of those personal project viewers, really.
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: for me it runs way better than any v3 viewer
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: shame zen is not for linux. now i cannot test it on other system.. to compare
[10:31] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          5d1d47e: 2012-05-07 20:01:17 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[10:31] Marcus Llewellyn: I"ve been quite happy with Zen.
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: like on that Encitra project I was working on the Uppsala Simulator
[10:31] Sarah Kline: And its Opensim freindly
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: I could not log into it with the Stock LL viewer
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: it would just crash within a few minutes
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: Zen viewer has never crashed once on me
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: anywhere
[10:31] BlueWall Slade: that's pretty weird
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: the LL viewer crashes every 2 minutes
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: its horrible
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: i try to rewrite a bug report
[10:32] BlueWall Slade: I run the beta ones on my dev grid - really stable
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya I was using the Stock Release and the Dev viewer
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly due to the logging in child agents on faraway gims
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: both have same results
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be the unusual thing being done, I should think?
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: gims = sims
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps
[10:32] BlueWall Slade: maybe so
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: but it crashes here in OSgrid pretty often as well
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I've never had a problem with it on osgrid, though I don't travel far
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: literally Zen viewer has not crashed even once yet for
[10:33] Dahlia Trimble: well Nebadon you have your draw distance set to 9 billion ;)
[10:33] Marcus Llewellyn: lol
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I believe there might be iussues on teleport - I always have the problem with v3 on linux
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: its set for 512
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: yes I would agree with you there Justin
[10:33] BlueWall Slade: I have good TP too
[10:33] BlueWall Slade: but it's all on my lan
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: teleports do fail quite often for me
[10:33] BlueWall Slade: so, there may some timing issues
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: its very random
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there's a very intricate handover
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: like other day I was telling Diva about it
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: then when she logged into the console to watch
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i was able to teleport like 10 times
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: without a problem
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:34] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey grins
[10:34] BlueWall Slade: hehe, yes that's a song and dance going on in there
[10:34] Dahlia Trimble: haha
[10:34] VivK Lowlag: well at least it tp's then logs you out instead of a nasty crash
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: what I think it is
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: if the sim your in
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: is still loading prims and textures
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: and you teleport
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: it fails
[10:35] VivK Lowlag: out of lbsa?
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: but thats just a theory I have
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: right
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: I always get to my destination Viv
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: i can start to see things loading
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: then boom logged out
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: with a something has gone wrong message with ok button
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: its not a hard crash
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: that's probably because the source simulator sends yo ua disable simulator packet
[10:36] VivK Lowlag: well I am usually in lbsa for at least 30 minutes before I leave
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: eq message, rather
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how long is it before you are logged out?
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: 10-20 seconds
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: I see just a few prims and terrain usually
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: that's about the righ ttime frame for the destination server not to have properly reponded with release agent
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: if the source simulator doesn't receive the release agent in time it tries to drag you back. That might not succeed if the handover has already partially happened
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ah
[10:38] Richardus Raymaker: oh crap, you need account to track it right. grrr
[10:38] Richardus Raymaker: well posted the repport again without login
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: mm, 20 secs is the exact delay
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: just put it on your favorites Richardus
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: keep checking back
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: thats what I do
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt make an account
[10:39] Richardus Raymaker: thin the first time it did not post correct to
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: she has responded to every bug report i did
[10:39] Sarah Kline: me too
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: the message in the log now would be Teleport of {0} to {1} failed due to no callback from destination region.
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: if that appears then the failure is due to the destinatio nnot responding
[10:39] Marcus Llewellyn: 20 secs seems like a reasonable wait. Anything longer than that is the exception, not the rule, and usually means something has gone terribly wrong.
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: hrmmm not sure, I do not actually have console access on the Encitra simulator
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: which is a very interesting experience to say the least
[10:40] Richardus Raymaker: well, saved the case double this time.. now wait
[10:40] Sarah Kline: would we ever be able to visit it Neb
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully yes
[10:40] Sarah Kline: walking tour?
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: we have discused it
[10:40] Sarah Kline: nice
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: and sort of left it off as yes we will do it
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: just a matter of working out the time
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: thats mostly up to Diva, since shes the admin
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: lol dahlia, nice gun
[10:42] Marcus Llewellyn: She's makin' me nervous back there. ;)
[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: god that thing is aincent
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: [OFFTOPIC], but can impact osgrid to. "[Posted 9:45am PDT, 8 May 2012] We will be performing scheduled maintenance today, Wednesday and Thursday of this week (May 8, May 9, May 10), beginning at 6:00pm PDT each day. Each maintenance is scheduled to last around 8 hours."
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: So maby more SL visitors
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya I saw that Richardus, they are not downing the grid
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: it just sounds like might be some disruptions here and there
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: so I dont think it will have a major impact here
[10:43] Marcus Llewellyn: Last one turned out to be a hardware failure, I guess?
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: that's pretty crazy, their peek time too
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: I never heard Marcus
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: peak
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya it must be something major
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: an exploit fix
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: or a nasty bug
[10:44] Marcus Llewellyn: We actually do hit about 200 on a semi-regular basis these days.
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: the map is yellow over there
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya 200 is not all that unusual
[10:44] Sarah Kline: dont want to pay people to work nights probably
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: what kind of time is that?
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: they should lower tier prices
[10:44] Marcus Llewellyn: I remember when 30 was the max. We'd 50 and be all "Hurray!"
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: for 200 on osgrid?
[10:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Yup.
[10:45] BlueWall Slade: lol < 10
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: various times Justin
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: whats the cound now
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: were at 166 now
[10:46] Marcus Llewellyn: 165
[10:46] Sarah Kline: and the fact that everybodys doing appearance of wearing stuff
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: opensim question, i hear appdomain = true is oly usefull if you run more simulators on 1 instance >3 i have turned it off it saves 1GB and dont see porblems
[10:46] Taarna Welles: lol
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: you're on windows?
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: am on windows
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: using latest code?
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya it really depends Richardus, having seperate domains for each script does use a bit more resources
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: and on C# and dont understand why i did not use C# faster
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: generally .net handles it better than mono does
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm wondering if Melanie's fix has made any change to the problems we were seeing with appdomain = true on windows
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: linux gives me with hardware to many problems..
[10:47] Marcus Llewellyn: AppDomain is still not useful on Mono, right?
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: I think it did
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: I asked several people to test it
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: Marcus: true or false?
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: and no one had issues
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: cool
[10:47] Marcus Llewellyn: I have it at false under Mono right now.
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: well its useful up to a point
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yeah. that's probably the best setting
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: a point that is very low compared to windows
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: like if you have more than a couple 100 scripts
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: your probably going to start seeing issues in mono
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: linux i did have it always false
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with False in mono though
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: is it leads to memory loss over time
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: if set to true it would allow memory to be freed if scripts are unloaded. But that tends to be outweighed by the absolutely cost of having a spearate appdomain for each script
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: scripts can never be unloaded
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: so everytime someone comes into your region wearing scripts
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: it compounds into memory
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: absolute, not absolutely
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: over time it will lead to major memory usage
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, what we really need is a setting that only loads attached scripts into separate appdomains
[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: my railroad sim i set appdomain = true there i can easy add more memory to
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: looks like thats going to be windows to
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: but even with the memory loss
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: but that's not a a really high priority item, especially if the windows issue is less now
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: performance with it set to false in linux is much better
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza won't even start
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: with it set to true
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i dont see script problems on windows , but i run 1:!
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: 1:1
[10:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Okay, I think I understand. So in my case... with regions that see little traffic, but does have a fair number of scripts, false is prolly best. under Mono.
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: it gets about 60% of scripts loaded and crashes with a stacktrace
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya absolutely
[10:49] BlueWall Slade: can just kick the regions occasionally too
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: that's the easy fix ;)
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: if you don't they will most certainly kick themselves for you
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:50] Richardus Raymaker: sound good plan to set it false. but i hear on windows it need to be true. sofar i see no problem with false
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza can go about 5-6 days
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: then it explodes
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: that was the old advice, but that bug might not be fixed in the latest code
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: it gets a lot of traffic
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa is about the same
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: not = now
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: 5-6 days then boom
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: I would probably kick it every days
[10:50] Richardus Raymaker: ok. indeed i run the latest code
[10:51] VivK Lowlag: Nebadon was you wanting to schedule another load test soon?
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: but I am very happy with 5 days
[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I don't think restarting every day at a set time is unreasonable
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya Maybe, I would like to do another load test on OSGB sim
[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: though ultimately it would be better if that didn't have to be done
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: holy crap 22 windows updates today!!!! grr
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: we have fallback routing, etc.
[10:51] Marcus Llewellyn: OSG4B mega seems tobe running m uch better on current code than it was last year.
[10:52] VivK Lowlag: hey maybe we can get the chinese students on a friday night since ther was many of them
[10:52] Richardus Raymaker: 22 ? hmmm
[10:52] Sarah Kline: that will be good
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I was very impressed with the mass teleport we did
[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: chinese students?
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: Justin we mass teleported what like 15 avatars? the other day from Bade Plaza to OSGB 3x3 Mega region
[10:52] Marcus Llewellyn: And once the TPs died down, there was very little lag.
[10:52] VivK Lowlag: chinese english majors
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: it was very rough at 1st because literally everyone teleported simultaneously
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: but it survivied and eventually recovered
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: and ran very well
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, I think there is room for improvement there tbh
[10:53] Richardus Raymaker: then i wher epossible nr. 16. i could not get in/ lol
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I think some things which are still synchronous don't absolutely need to be
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya a couple people had issues
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: but thats not surprising
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: there was an insane amount of spew
[10:53] BlueWall Slade:
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: because of the teleports
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: lol
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: unfortuantely a lots of that's still necessry to track issues
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: what was wierd is there was massive spew about ProtocolViolation for HTTP asset requests
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: to the asset server
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's extremely odd
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:54] Jamie Farstrider: is it fun being a duck in a fountain, Cerulean?
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: the asset server was fine too
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: cool
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: I suspect it was a thread lock
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: on the simulator
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt getting the info it requested
[10:54] BlueWall Slade: what were the messages?
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: eventually the lock went away and it was fine
[10:54] BlueWall Slade: any wapi ?
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: the spew did eventually stop
[10:54] Cerulean Optimist: yes, we are good friends now :) it took some time
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: let me see if I can find the spew
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: locks don't go away - it was probably some kind of timeout
[10:54] Jamie Farstrider: lolz
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: or at least, out locks don't for th emost part
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I mean network response timeout
[10:55] Richardus Raymaker: time-out on timeout that where waiting on time-out
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: our locks I mean
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's partly why I extended 'slow' response logging, since I've seen some issues in this area elsewhere
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:55] BlueWall Slade: that was a good move
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: here is a small snippet
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: i think the slow response is on mono worse
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: this was what the mass of the spew looked like
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: another thing I found
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: on our plaza06 server
[10:56] VivK Lowlag: is that a guess Rich or fact?
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: we were constantly every few weeks getting out of thread messages on all the simulator consoles
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: so i dug into it a bit
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: it turns out the ulimit -u on Fedora is insanely low
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: its 1024
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: i guess. not seen many on windows for now. but saw it on the same pc with mono .. but mono and that cpu is doinbg something weird anyway
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: i compared to our SuSe boxes which were set to like 68000
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: so I upped the ulimit -u to match our suse boxes
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: I think its going to make all the difference in the world
[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: how's bade now nebadon ?
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: but I did this before the load test
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully better Richardus
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: we've not really put it to the test yet though
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: since making the change
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: but I suspect we'll see major improvement
[10:58] Richardus Raymaker: we know in 1 month
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: the machine was definately choking on threads
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: 1024 is low
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: for the amount of stuff we were running
[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: what is ulimit?
[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: debian says unlimited
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: are you logged in as root?
[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: ya
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: BZZZZZT!!!!
[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: oh wait, forgot -u. its 2047
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: possibly though there is a lock somewhere, since 1024 threads seems an awfully high number to be running all at once
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: it places limits on resources
[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: which resources?
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: memory, process time, etc.
[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: oh I dont want limits
[11:00] BlueWall Slade: 1 sec
[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: hmmmm
[11:00] BlueWall Slade: lol
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: well remember this is like 6 simulators running Justincc
[11:00] BlueWall Slade: ???
[11:00] BlueWall Slade: should
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: its not just 1 simulator
[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: no man page
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: one of the simulators is a 9 region mega
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: with a crapload of scirpts
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebdon: true,. that number if for all threads for a single user
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: correct
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: across all processes
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: 1024 is very low
[11:00] Richardus Raymaker:
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: you figure thats MySQL and Apache too
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: well maybe not actually
[11:01] Dahlia Trimble: opensim uses a couple thousand threads just at startup
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: since those are differnt users
[11:01] BlueWall Slade: /etc/security/limits.conf
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: but ya, this is the same box with Lbsa Plaza too
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: which is always full of people
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, different users
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: it was the only box that had this issue though
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: does somebody know what ubuntu use default ?
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i was about ready to erase Fedora off the damn box
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i really do not like fedora
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: but if it runs well, i'll keep it
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: my ubuntu 11.10 ulimit -u is unlimited
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully this changes has impact
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya I just matched what our suse boxes had
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: since they run so well
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: oops, I tell a lie - it's 39585
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: 63845
[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: i used 12.04 as last time for server. so thats not the problem. then windows rocks
[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: 39585 still more then 1024. weird number justin
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya its very odd numbers suse chose
[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: my ubuntu 11.10 ulimit -u is 32073 as root
[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: i would say 32768 or 65535
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: well under linux with that cpu + mono i get weird high loads. thats why i swapped to windows
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: load, cpu low
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya mono requires a lot more attention
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: the kernel makes a huge difference too
[11:04] BlueWall Slade: I have to take off - will stay parked here for a bit
[11:04] Dahlia Trimble: windows has process limits too
[11:05] BlueWall Slade: take care everyone - till next week
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: bye bluewall
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: and also intrestsing to play after years with windows side
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: bye bluewall
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya its just .net handles those limits better than mono i think
[11:05] Dahlia Trimble: bye
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: see you blue
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: Justin also don't know if I told you
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: but mono 2.11
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: only windows use double the amount of memory, with appdom false also
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: it will run OpenSimulator fine if OpenSimulator is compiled on mono 2.10
[11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Later, Blue :)
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: but if OpenSimulator is compiled with mono 2.11
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it won't start on anything
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: not on mono 2.10, not on windows
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: not on 2.11
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: mono 2.11 i think could not compile something with gmcs, forgot the name
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it compiles it fine
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: no errors
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it just doesnt run
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: when you get the gmcs error when compiling
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: wel it failed anyway with mono 2.11
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: that means your missing mono packages
[11:07] Taarna Welles: Got to go... bye peeps :)
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: that's unfortunate
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: from my experience anyway
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bye taarna
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya it sucks
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: cause I suspect mono 2.11 performance is way improved
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I may end up looking at sgen at some point
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I know you say it doesn't work but ultimately I want to see if there's an alternative to the current gc issue of thread pausing
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya I think if we can get opensimulator working on some of this newer mono stuff
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we can see major improvments
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, if things are failing they are probaly mono bugs rather than opensim
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect moving to sgen will probably require we make some tweaks to our code no doubt
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as opensim is using the language legally and it works on older mono then it's really a mono issue I would say
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: It could be some of both
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I rather doubt that tbh
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: but there's a lot of inefficiency in opensim code atm
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: as well
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: it wouldnt suprise me if its some of both
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: but fixing that is no good in the long term, in my opinionm if one can't work around the gc pausing issue
[11:10] Dahlia Trimble: lunch time for /me, bye all :)
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: sound like am heading the good direction. and its fun to :O
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Good eats, Dahlia :)
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia
[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Try not to shoot lunch.
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to pop off as well
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: see you later, folks
[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Take care, Justin. :)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya :)
[11:11] VivK Lowlag: bye JCC
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming everyone :)
[11:11] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Always educational. :)
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