Chat log from the meeting on 2012-04-17

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[10:03] VivK Lowlag: hi Justin
[10:03] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          d4beb2f: 2012-03-23 03:39:39 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi vivk, hi folks
[10:03] BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[10:04] VivK Lowlag: hi core
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[10:04] mimetic.core hi viv, all
[10:04] xstorm Radek: lol
[10:04] VivK Lowlag: hi xstorm
[10:04] xstorm Radek: you win pathfinder
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: hi xstorm.
[10:05] xstorm Radek: hi every one
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: where's neb ?
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: you a clud xstorm
[10:05] VivK Lowlag: ping him in irc
[10:05] Pathfinder.Lester hiya xstorm
[10:05] Pathfinder.Lester :)
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: afraid ping is not loud enough
[10:05] VivK Lowlag: a gong?
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: maby betetr, a big one
[10:06] xstorm Radek: i was looking at how hypergrid groups and profiles work
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: in a while i can have a system complete seperate for that stuff xstorm.. :O
[10:06] xstorm Radek: you know i think it can be made part of the inventory like friends contacts calling cards
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: only need more time
[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: aha. ok. where talking about hyperGRID ..
[10:07] xstorm Radek: that way the data will hold not only hypergrid data and be part of a uuid but hold groups of them regions
[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: question for justin. but think he's busy to..
[10:08] xstorm Radek: we did have some thing like it back in 2003 but was drop from second life when the new servers gone in
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: ? but sl did never got HG ?
[10:09] BlueWall Slade: the profiles will be web based pretty soon
[10:09] BlueWall Slade: so will search, etc.
[10:09] xstorm Radek: no the profiles system was very simple at one time
[10:09] BlueWall Slade: so, it should be fairly easy to connect everything for HG
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: about web profiles. sure its good idea to add user uuid on that ?
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon..
[10:09] xstorm Radek: hi neb
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: good morning
[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hey neb
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: because i saw the user uuid...
[10:10] xstorm Radek: i blame you neb i lost that sculpty mountain lol
[10:10] BlueWall Slade: yes, RiRa - the user has to login to the server, then that generates a sequence that logs them into the web app
[10:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Only show the UUID for oneself or not at all.
[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: how can you lose a whole mountain ? the are not reaslly little...
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: what happen?
[10:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Who lost a mountain?
[10:11] xstorm Radek: it broken unlink lol
[10:11] xstorm Radek: i did not know it was in so many parts
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: oh heh
[10:11] VivK Lowlag: 60ish parts
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: well you can get another copy from my store if you don't have a backup
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: its 64 prims
[10:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I had that with a sample house I got in SL. Its in pieces and I don't know how it goes back together.
[10:12] xstorm Radek: yep all over 20 regions lol
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ah you scaled it up?
[10:12] xstorm Radek: yes by error lol
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: heh that sucks
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya unlinking things that cross borders
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: = disaster
[10:12] Richardus Raymaker: old game in new style. SL puzzle
[10:12] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[10:12] xstorm Radek: it was lol
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens if you unlink something that straddles a border?
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: notsure i think justin talked about it. npot sure if its possibl;e. can opensim send a rebake command to the viewer ?
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: things go horribly wrong
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: it happens so amny times you need to rebake
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: in SL anything unlinked across a border i bleive is automatically returned/erased
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: but in OpenSim, the viewer gets all confused
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: its very difficult to erase the parts
[10:14] xstorm Radek: yes it did
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: Crista / diva did it yesterday
[10:14] xstorm Radek: i had to use god mode 500
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: it ended up taking her like a couple hours to fix the mess she made
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean by confused? the parts are there but can't be deleted, the parts gets put to odd places in the sim?
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: you erase them, if you can
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: they come back
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: then you cant select them
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: after restart?
[10:15] xstorm Radek: yes after a restart even
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: it depends
[10:15] BlueWall Slade: erased from the database?
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: it gets really messy
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes they are not in the database
[10:15] xstorm Radek: it made dirty data on the assets server
[10:15] BlueWall Slade: lol
[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: again the lack of own opensim viewer is biteing. i think there are some restrictions droped becasue mega regions ?
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: you realy want to avoid doing it
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:16] BlueWall Slade: maybe they were in neighbor region's databases with odd coordinates?
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: this isn't a viewer issue - clearly opensim behaves poorly with such unlinking
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: I have not had time to explore it
[10:16] xstorm Radek: i have been looking at the zen viewer if they can remove the sl part it be a great viewer
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: the grid that it happened to me on, i don't have access to the databases
[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: or even the sim consoles
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: im just a builder there
[10:17] BlueWall Slade: ahh
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: which in itself is interesting
[10:17] VivK Lowlag: it can be replicated here
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim is very frustrating if you are not an admin
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: you really need to be very cautious what you do
[10:18] xstorm Radek: well neb there was a way to even get god mode even back in sl even if you was not a linden it was a bug i hope that was fix
[10:18] VivK Lowlag: hey Neb did you read this is alpha software?
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: I am sure its fixed in SL
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:19] xstorm Radek: but i do know some holes are still in the viewers do to sl vewer
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: I think all the core devs should be forced to work on a grid for a couple weeks and have no console or admin access
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[10:19] BlueWall Slade: 0.)
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: its been an interesting experience
[10:19] VivK Lowlag: don't make them push their pc's out the window
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ive come to the conclusion too
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: that Xengine really sucks
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:19] xstorm Radek: been there did that in korea1 , waterhead, violet, bear and on and on lol
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: i am so frustrated with scripting
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: don't get me wrong its impressive how far you can take it
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: but when compared to what you can do in SL
[10:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: What's the problem?
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty terrible
[10:20] BlueWall Slade: list time I was into scripting it seemed that the event system was hosed
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: events fail constantly
[10:20] BlueWall Slade: about 2 months ago
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: llSleep is pure garbage
[10:20] Andrew Hellershanks: neb, oh
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: don't use it
[10:20] xstorm Radek: the scripting is not to hard to fix
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: its terrible if you cannot fix things in scripts etc. because the or no-mod.. points to sl...
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: I have been trying to make a NPC simulation
[10:21] BlueWall Slade: we have a chance to fix that with the new mono
[10:21] Andrew Hellershanks: xstorm, it is if the problem isn't with the script but with the scripting engine
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: and while ive gotten very far with it, its not going very well
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: its looking more and more likely we are going to have to abandon the OSSLNPC functions
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: and create a module
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know the at_target events fail in some case. never figured out why. dropped it
[10:21] Andrew Hellershanks: really?
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: :-(
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: Xengine is just way to unreliable
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: for any kind of serious use
[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: and i have seen that sensors are takeing things with some salt to. it looks like its get triggerd way to early
[10:22] xstorm Radek: problem is not the scripting engine more with all the workarounds LL made over the years with there scripting engine
[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how hard it would be to fix xengine
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: well, tat means you have to start coding in c#
[10:22] BlueWall Slade: what area are you having issues with?
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: actually it means someone else will
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: i don't know C# well enough
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure xengine can be improved in these aspects
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: Imnage 2 cirles a7 meter and sensors thats detect 7 meters. nothing happens. when you move the sensor 1 meter closer into the other cirlcle it get already trigger. still 6 meters from center
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt it can
[10:23] xstorm Radek: i was hoping to see C# put in to place
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: its going to take a long while though
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: BlueWall what is happening is my waypoints are failing
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: the NPC's just stop walking
[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: cant codee C#, if it where pascal i would say ok givbe it a try
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: a lot
[10:23] BlueWall Slade: the events?
[10:23] xstorm Radek: LL has drop all work on C# do you sec. holes
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: i can only assume yes
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: what is interesting
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: if i move the waypoint a hair
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: then move it back
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: the event triggers
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: and the NPC moves again, somtimes
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes it doesnt
[10:24] BlueWall Slade: that stuff used to be very solid
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: and I only have 12 NPC's
[10:24] xstorm Radek: trace path ?
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: xstorm, what are they using if not C#?
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: I need like 100
[10:24] BlueWall Slade: I made a combat system that relied on it
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: well about 25 per simulator anyway
[10:24] BlueWall Slade: and it was pretty reliable
[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon my idea is that events sometimes get issed like at_target when the script is doing more things
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive only gotten to about 12, and its constantly failing
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: You don't need to drop a language due to security holes. Most of the time its the application at fault.
[10:24] xstorm Radek: they moved backwords
[10:25] BlueWall Slade: but, a couple of months ago, I tried making a vehicle and it was hosed pretty bad
[10:25] Andrew Hellershanks: xstorm, C? :-)
[10:25] BlueWall Slade: the events seem to be lagging
[10:25] BlueWall Slade: at_target wouldn't fire, then when the movement stopped - 20 of them would
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya Xengine does not seem to handle threading well or something
[10:26] xstorm Radek: do not get me started at a meeting they view me as no more then a griefer or problem maker for them
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ive done all kinds of tweaking to the Xengine section and mono
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: and gotten zero improvements
[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: especially with phyical objects it looks like xengine is going weird
[10:26] BlueWall Slade: I noticed that the Intel boys did some work in that area about 3 months ago
[10:26] xstorm Radek: they need a all new graphic engine at LL but will not do it
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: I dind't go back to test it though
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: but yea there seems to be some kind of wierdness with event management
[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: xstorm, if you talk about SL, the are good in makeing there own problems. :)
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: might be worth a look
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: eventually all my buttons stop working
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: but its odd i can compile new scripts
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: but any already compiled scripts are just dead
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: until sim restarts
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: its been very frustrating
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: see if you can pin it on the events
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: It would be interesting to know what xengine stats says in that situation
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: but that does require console access
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: I'll see if I can go back to a rev a few months
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i'll have to ask Crista
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: as i don't have console access
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: essentially, all complex debugging really requires console access
[10:28] BlueWall Slade: I didn't see messages
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: at this point
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: I can get the data
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: i just cant get it myself
[10:28] BlueWall Slade: it's like the event stuff is in a threasd out in la-la land
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: its really easy to make Xengine barf though
[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. Helps to see the console messages
[10:29] BlueWall Slade: yeah
[10:29] BlueWall Slade: but, those events make it unusable
[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: Are many of the methods writtin in a bug report?
[10:29] BlueWall Slade: otherwise, it can do a lot of things
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: I don't know Andrew
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: I have not opened any bugs yet
[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: just some little thing. why did LL never make with llGetObjectDetails option to get the prim size ?
[10:30] Andrew Hellershanks: First there was, then xengine. I wonder what is next.
[10:30] BlueWall Slade: Hey Dahlia
[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: xengine can be improved
[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: i cant really open bugs. i dont can pinpoint the fault. and i made soemtimes script mistakes to :O
[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[10:30] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I agree justin
[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: it requires careful analysis of the situation, and an understanding of the internals. Uncontroleld replorts aren't much good, except to indicate there's some kind of issue
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: and after that it needs regression testing, etc./
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: problem: time
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... understanding the internals. Easier said than done.
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: hi juicy
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: once I have some more time I can probably make some example scripts that kill the simulator
[10:31] BlueWall Slade: with the new mono, we could make continuations
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Need a good understanding of C# as well.
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: time is always the issue, but the time will come, smoe time.
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: llSleep though
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: man
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: we should disable that function
[10:31] Juicy BabiiJuicy Babii greets & listens in
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: no, it just needs fixing
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: afraid if you start somewhere in xengine you never can stop...
[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: llSleep() just calls Thread.Sleep()
[10:32] xstorm Radek: i hope we do not in any way copy sl i like to see opensim be much better
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: it would really be impossible to copy SL
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: no andrew, thats bad..
[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus that's why you need a list of things to work on.
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: since no one has access to the source code
[10:32] BlueWall Slade: well - SL has worked out a lot of the things we need ...
[10:33] BlueWall Slade: so we can build on those
[10:33] Richardus Raymaker: i mean threadsleep
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes, so in principloe there shouldn't be an issue
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: mono has limited amount of threads
[10:33] xstorm Radek: sl covers things up with tons of little patches
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: and llSleep kills a thread
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: it just keeps it for a while
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: so if you have 25 llSleeps all fire simulaneously
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: this might be a problem for a long sleep, but a short sleep would be okay
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: you could potentially run out of threads
[10:34] Richardus Raymaker: you know how many threads mono likes. i have it set at 100 in bash
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: and mono shouldn't reach a thread limit unless you have thousands of them
[10:34] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks wonders how SL would handle that situation
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: microthreading
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: its not the end all answer
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: but LL is way more efficient with threads
[10:34] Richardus Raymaker: still good to avopid llSleep also in sl :O
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: and how they handle it
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: look, the thing to do would be to find the real cause of the bug first
[10:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Whats different about microthreading vs. threading?
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: there is no point specualting
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: oh absolutely
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: speculating
[10:34] Richardus Raymaker: but the are working on that a few years longer
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: im just saying thats how LL handles potentailly 100's of LLsleeps
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: firing simultaneously
[10:35] BlueWall Slade: but speculating doesn't cost anything
[10:35] BlueWall Slade: :)
[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: it wastes carbon :)
[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: I think the threadpool gets something like 1000 threads just at startup so 100 probablyu insth onough
[10:35] xstorm Radek: as long as we keep the code clean and no dirty bits in it
[10:35] Richardus Raymaker: it costs 1 Byte/charater you type. :P
[10:35] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:35] BlueWall Slade: and time
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: isnt enough
[10:36] Richardus Raymaker: in the past i saw that at startup yes
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie seems to know why llSleep fails
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: i think they have fixed all of that in Avination
[10:36] Andrew Hellershanks: anyway to get a stat on thread usage?
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is their script engine only works in Linux
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: on a very custom version of mono
[10:36] BlueWall Slade: they dont' have to worry about being cross platform
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: they basically rewrote mono
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: right
[10:36] BlueWall Slade: we could have fixed a lot of things in mono
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: I doubt they rewrote mono, it's ahuge vn
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: they did
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: changed some things perhaps
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: no
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: they actually rewrote a good portion of it
[10:37] xstorm Radek: lsl i still use a lot
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: and your source for that information is?
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: thats why melanie is so against upgrading mono
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: she explained it to me
[10:37] Dahlia Trimble: if you rewrite mono, why not just rewrite opensim in c++
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: well mono is going to have to be upgraded at some point, so that's just going to be tough for them
[10:37] BlueWall Slade: the probably have something that resembles the 11.0
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: that's the cost of doing custom work
[10:38] BlueWall Slade: go out on a limb and dig a deep hole
[10:38] Richardus Raymaker: i wish more people wher eon newer mono..
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: at some point we shouldnt have to rewrite mono
[10:38] BlueWall Slade: we can't do the latest yet
[10:38] Andrew Hellershanks: how do you dig a deep hole when you are out on a limb? ;-)
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: eventually it should be good enough to not have to
[10:38] Dahlia Trimble: hard to upgrade sometimes
[10:38] BlueWall Slade: falling off
[10:38] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: its a shame opensimulator doesnt work with mono 2.11
[10:38] xstorm Radek: im using windows 7 server
[10:39] BlueWall Slade: wiht the mono 11, we can do async things to make microthreading
[10:39] xstorm Radek: no no mono lol
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: i bet there are tons of improvements
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: its a major refactor
[10:39] Richardus Raymaker: ? 2.11 ohh ?
[10:39] BlueWall Slade: ohh, lol yeah
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya 2.11 alpha is out on their website
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: but opensimulator crashes instantly
[10:39] Andrew Hellershanks: great. A whole new set of bugs ;-)
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: well, do they know that?
[10:39] Richardus Raymaker: ohh its alpha
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: not really, they want very specific test cases
[10:39] BlueWall Slade: yes
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: and honestly i have no clue as to why its failing
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: the errors are almost useless
[10:40] Dahlia Trimble: opensim isnt doing anything out of spec is it? its probably mono's fault
[10:40] xstorm Radek: lol i love bug shows we are human
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: I think some of our dependancies fail
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim can't do anything out of spec - all bugs are ultimately mono's fault
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: its the logging stuff
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: we did look at it
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: lol
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: log4net
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: or whatever
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: peopel blame the least understood part
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: seems to be why its failing
[10:40] BlueWall Slade: then do what is comfortable
[10:41] BlueWall Slade: even if it's the wrong thing to do
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: well, then the next thing would be to start log4net entirely by itself and see if that fails
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: i tried recompiling log4net
[10:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, It means they don't have to fix it becauses its someone elses problem
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: but that didnt work
[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: log4net has to survive multiple threads
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: and there are other opensim executables like pCampbot that could be tried with mono 2.11
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: though thst's areally mainly a libomv exec but it does use log4net, for instance
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: k i can test that
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: I havne't been able to put it on here
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: mauen I can make a local instance of mono
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: *maybe*
[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: adding mono-only features to opensim would be... lame
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i always do it in user space
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: so i can easily switch versions
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: hmm, that is the point
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: they are tracking M$ pretty close
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: thats how i explained compileing mono. in userspace
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim will remain multi-platform so there will be no mono specific stuff
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: and now theyu are doing C# 5
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: so we can do the cool stuff cross-platform
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: instead of fixing problems ?
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya the only thing mono specific would be stuff that mono can't do
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: that .net can
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: which is probably quite a bit
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:44] xstorm Radek: do you think may be in the next build we can have some of them updates plus get the opensim32lunch to use more then 2gigs of ram ?
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: probably not much that we would use
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats true BlueWall
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: 64 bits will
[10:45] xstorm Radek: good all my servers are quad 64bit systems
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you want more than 2gb ram don't use 32 bit launcher
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: the OpenSim.32BitLaunch.exe was really just a hack
[10:45] BlueWall Slade: I've had regions mess up and eat 16G of RAM in a few minutes - 2 years ago
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: to solve a problem thats actually been fixed now
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: OpenSim.exe still appears to fail sometimes on 64 bit windows
[10:46] xstorm Radek: blue thats a archive memory leak
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: oh hrmm
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: how is it failing?
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: i had not heard that
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: Failures with certain objects
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: and possible still some ode bugs
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya
[10:46] xstorm Radek: yyep
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats right i do remember that
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: like the MLP
[10:47] Andrew Hellershanks: any known memory leaks still in OS?
[10:47] BlueWall Slade: sculpties with alpha layer for protection
[10:47] xstorm Radek: yes it is
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: there are some Andrew
[10:47] Yoshiko Fazuku: i heard ode recently did a release with multithread support out of the blue
[10:48] xstorm Radek: some parts trigger it
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: possibly dynamically generated textures, possibly currently with scene presences
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: Yoshiko, yes they started multi thread support
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: i tried to make it work, but opensimulator crashes
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling its not very complete
[10:48] xstorm Radek: ?
[10:48] xstorm Radek: ?
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: i even recall warnings about you shouldnt use it yet
[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: you tried to make alpha sculpties work?
[10:48] Yoshiko Fazuku: i have also heard that hightmaps are borked
[10:49] BlueWall Slade: we have to access it with pinvoke, so I guess that could get hairy too
[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I've got some alpha sculpties
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I wouldn't be at all surprised if latest ode doesn't work
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: its a compile time options
[10:49] Dahlia Trimble: they shouldnt cause a leek
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall
[10:49] Dahlia Trimble: leak
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt enabled by default
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: its been a while, i cant even rememner now honestly
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: Dahlia, there were some with a watermark causing usses
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: issues
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: I remember there being problems with some alpha sculpties and physics
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: maybe it was those eating up CPU?
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: probably OpenJpeg decoding issue?
[10:50] Dahlia Trimble: they dont mesh properly but they shouldnt cause a leak
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: also this was in 0.6.9
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: been a while
[10:51] Dahlia Trimble: oh
[10:51] xstorm Radek: what about doing a new menu in the viewers to turn off physics for mesh or sculptys ?
[10:51] xstorm Radek: will that help ?
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: we can turn off physics
[10:51] Richardus Raymaker: viewer ?
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: yes
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: estate menu
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: you can't move if you do that though
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:52] xstorm Radek: yes but only sculptys and mesh needs it at times
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: its not just collisions
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: its everything
[10:52] Richardus Raymaker: thats the thing you really want phyics on sculpts and mesh. i hate that in sl. you always want to stay on rock. Plop.. phantom
[10:52] Richardus Raymaker: or square
[10:52] BlueWall Slade: right - but sometimes that is the only way to troubleshoot an issue
[10:52] xstorm Radek: every think ?
[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: if a mesh fails it should just make a box collider shape
[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: or just make it phantom
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think it makes it a box
[10:53] Andrew Hellershanks: heheh... I turned off physics once to deal with a physical prim that was lagging a region only to find we couldn't move around after I made the change
[10:53] BlueWall Slade: these things were taking the right shape
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: there is also a OpenSim.ini change you can amke to disable Mesh physics
[10:53] Richardus Raymaker: thats why i say viewer. because viewers dont have any option to disable phyics for mesh and sculpts only
[10:53] Gudule.Lapointe Hello everybody. I wish I could wait a better moment to speak, but I have a meeting in a few minutes. I wanted to take the opportunity of meeting you together to submit a thought about fimplementing a shared blacklist. I won't interrupt the current discussion for that, but I would be happy if you talk about it later and someone tells me what has been told. (As i'll have to leave before). There are some thoughts about it on website
[10:53] xstorm Radek: i have seen a error with mesh imports that after time they turn invisy
[10:54] Yoshiko Fazuku: speaking of veiwers did i miss a conversation yet on the havok in the vewier stuff and perhaps opensim needs a veiwer of its own
[10:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Gudule.Lapointe: black list what?
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: Gudule.Lapointe, hat is somewhat off topic for this meeting
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: but i can say, in some coutnries its illegal to share peoples information like that
[10:54] BlueWall Slade: re black list: I dont' know that there is a fair way to do it. Who would investigate asllegations to see if they are true?
[10:54] Richardus Raymaker: Yoshiko, try to find developers and start write a viewer. maby its done in 5 years
[10:54] xstorm Radek: ?
[10:54] xstorm Radek: yes opensim needs to get the zen viewer maker to just build for opensim ?
[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: personally I dont like the idea of shared blacklists but if others do it I wont try to stop them, I just wont participate
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: I personally wouldnt share peoples personal information with other grids
[10:55] BlueWall Slade: best to prepare for griefers and deal with them
[10:55] Yoshiko Fazuku: well i was gona sugest the radgast codebase
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: one could fork the existing viewer
[10:55] Gudule.Lapointe to allow a shared blacklist for banning griefers... sorry again to come with this while you speak about sth else. A joint effort would be efficient
[10:55] Yoshiko Fazuku: since its bsd already
[10:55] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want to work on the viewer, fix the 4k TP limit :-)
[10:55] Richardus Raymaker: blacklist, hard todo. names you can change, ip's can change so what to blacklist ?
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: I think its a horrible idea, that would be abused
[10:55] BlueWall Slade: what if someone gets reported for a pollitical erason?
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: look at RedZone in SL
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: it was a complete disaster
[10:56] BlueWall Slade: sontent creators getting their competition banned, etc.
[10:56] Gudule.Lapointe OK, i won't bother anymore for now, alredy some interesting things, i know this is somewshat off-topic, while it would need aa devel-side effort to take decisions on that
[10:56] xstorm Radek: i do not wish to see a blacklist i had my fill ove them in sl and got to see some underhanded tacktics used by some people
[10:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I've heard of things like that happening, Blue
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: that to nebadon. i say not usefull
[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: sharing greifer names doesnt bother me but giving anyone who has a dim teh power to ban anyoine they feel like is a poor choice IMHO
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not against sharing names
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: but that is somewhat useless
[10:57] Yoshiko Fazuku: we dont need JLU 2.0
[10:57] BlueWall Slade: when I ran a grid we just set things up to minimize their effects
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: as a person can change their name 100 times a minute
[10:57] BlueWall Slade: then kick their asses when they try to come back
[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: and many users csan change ip's quick to
[10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: IP addy's can change due to proxies or dial up, User can register with fake name.
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: in some countries sharing IP address information is actually illegal
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: so you would need to really be careful doing that
[10:58] xstorm Radek: i will share griefer names i just do not wish to see opensim police and blacklist
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: you should not take doing that lightly
[10:58] Pathfinder.Lester Like all security, it's not about completely preventing abuse from completely dedicated abusers. Security is about adding friction to stop as much abuse as you can.
[10:58] BlueWall Slade: if people allow content to be created in random areas - they're asking for it
[10:59] Yoshiko Fazuku: a good example of what can go wrong with such things is the SPEWS anti spam list
[10:59] Talun -: i ended up on a "griefer" list in sl after complaining about the quality of something i bought
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: If I were going to do it, I would make cool stuff and sperad it around, then send them a command later to take down the servers
[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: pfffft. bad person..
[10:59] Yoshiko Fazuku: it ended up blocking 4/5ths of the internet and becomeing useless
[10:59] Talun -: took a long time to find out why, no accountability
[11:00] xstorm Radek: sorry to see you ended up on a griefer list
[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: it sucks yes
[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: sorry nobody is getting the power to ban anyone from my sims except me and I dont want the power to ban anyone from anyone else's sims
[11:00] Yoshiko Fazuku: hehe even im on the list
[11:00] Talun -: and probably illegal through europe if access not readily available to peopel to see waht is logged against them
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: well, either way, any griefer list is comepletely outside opensim-core development
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is really just to much room for abuse, it creates more problems than it solves
[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: sounds too much like SOPA
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: yeah
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya, its really off topic for this meeting
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: if someone wants to implement a third party addon then that's their freedom, but I don't think there will be anything like that in core
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: i hope not
[11:01] Gudule.Lapointe weel the list itself is outside opensimm core devel, but there could be a module aallowing to share the list
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: having said that, I suspect that being able to block individuals/ip addresses for individual simulators/grids needs better support
[11:02] xstorm Radek: well to make you feel better i had the power at one time to ban people in sl and never needed to do it but one time to poor rodney linden
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya we don't even bother with doing it within opensimulator here
[11:02] Yoshiko Fazuku: banning hypergrid users is something tht needs to be looked at
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: we use nginx to block ips
[11:02] Pathfinder.Lester Justin, that sounds ideal.
[11:02] BlueWall Slade: iptables
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's the easier thing right now
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: iptables works well too
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yoshiko: latest opensim does have some config tools for banning hypergrid visitors from certain regions on a simulator
[11:02] Dahlia Trimble: why not just put the list on a web site and let people read it and a third party module could read it as well
[11:03] xstorm Radek: hard banning ?
[11:03] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          d4beb2f: 2012-03-23 03:39:39 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:03] Talun -: for universities and companies that have all trafic go out via a proxy you would ban all who ise it from those networks
[11:03] Gudule.Lapointe problem is that most regions are maintained by peopmle not aware of security processes like iptables. Including a miniimum service could help
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: banning ip address is almost a waste of time honestly
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: its so easy to aquire a new ip address
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it takes literally seconds
[11:03] Yoshiko Fazuku: yes i am aware of it though we need to give region owners a way to do it in the estate tools or parcel owners in the parcel window
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: then what do you ban? If you ban a name somebody can just come back with another one
[11:04] Gudule.Lapointe nebadon, not a complete solution, but could be usefull: Jack Marioline used the same network already 6 months ago
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: still question what you are banning ? on user names is most reliable. ip's can be changeing in 1 hour and in bad case yu block a good user
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: well the most effective bands are Mac address
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: you would probablyi need to block an ip range
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: some kind of hardware ban
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: but thats also difficult
[11:04] xstorm Radek: many of the griefer in sl have been doing there attacks from coffee shop computers
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: really, if someone wants to grief its nearly impossible to stop them
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: mac address, that's a good point
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: best you can do is frustrate them until they stop
[11:04] Dahlia Trimble: hardware can be spoofed too
[11:04] Yoshiko Fazuku: if you ban the acount they have to create a nother
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: i can change my mac adress of the router with 1 click. and so the ip adress to
[11:05] Pathfinder.Lester Again, when talking about any kind of security issues, in my experience it's not productive to say "dedicated hackers can work around it doing so and so." Security is about measured responses, and blocking not all but most of the attacks.
[11:05] BlueWall Slade: if the grid is designed to minimize it, then it's not such a big deal
[11:05] Gudule.Lapointe curretnt ban list tables in opensim include account, ip as well as user masks. As far I know, only account is useable from the viewer
[11:05] Dahlia Trimble: spoofer viewers are out there,open source too
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: is tehre a good wiki page about howto use it ?
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: just look at "Salad Boy"
[11:05] xstorm Radek: thats very true pathfinder they can i have seen it over the years
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: I agree - we will need better cor esupport for this in the future
[11:06] Gudule.Lapointe sorry, I have to run, i am already late. I would be please to receive transcript of the meeting...
[11:06] Yoshiko Fazuku: byt my point is if the uuid of the hyper grid user dosent change once they have conected once you should be able to do a normal ban on them
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: that guy uses a cell phone connection, and can change his Ip address very quickly
[11:06] Gudule.Lapointe and sorry again for having disrupted the meeting with this ;-)
[11:06] Gudule.Lapointe see you soon
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen him connecting from IP address's in almost every country in europe
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: even in the middle east
[11:06] Yoshiko Fazuku: tied to name@grid
[11:06] BlueWall Slade: proxies?
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: gudule: will post transcript. link will be on twitter later
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: no its a cell phone network
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Vodafone
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: speaking of which, I need to go too
[11:06] xstorm Radek: what we need is a better oprnsim backup system so people can roll back the opensim regions to befor the attack
[11:06] BlueWall Slade: lol KOW came to our place
[11:06] Gudule.Lapointe ok, thank you guys
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: take care Justin
[11:07] Pathfinder.Lester take care everyone
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin, and everyone thanks for coming
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: thanks Gudule
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I should get going shortly
[11:07] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
[11:07] xstorm Radek: thanks for letting me sit in
[11:07] BlueWall Slade: \o
[11:07] Pathfinder.Lester the fact that discussions about security are now happening tells me Opensim is definitely growing and evolving. :)
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