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Chat log from the meeting on 2026-10-06

2026-10-07T14:55:44Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:03 AM] Ubi..."

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[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe he is hinting at the new embedded browser
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I see we finally cobbled together enough pennies to hire a new bartender.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which LL does a lot of work on right now, or threaded UDP
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect it's just a word of caution to watch LL changes as they work on the renderer as well, that some fundamental approach to that isn't changing in a way you end up having to redo something. I doubt it's catastrophic
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: two viewer version posted today at https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/ 3.0.2 has the goodies
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we can't do anythign with the renderer till all UI is moved out of the GL view
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of viewers. Past week fixed a bunch of bugs in FS with TJ doing most of the work. Newest mac os beta saw multiple icons show in the dock, because the plist specifics were not set correctly and apparently Apple now cares about standards. Just today fixed the bug on world map clicking var regions would not load the region information
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The ??? name thing has seemingly been fixed proper, hasn't shown up all week so that's looking fixed
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still working on the cache thing all week I did find a sort of fix yesterday, which just raises more questions though
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great. I added iCloud sync of usernames and passwords per grid to the viewer published today
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It seems as if the way bakes are handled is timing dependent in some way that triggers rebakes while the viewer is still sending baked textures as it seems to query or receive bad textures during the same time
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: well vicent is talking about assets cache
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why that doesn't happen with Flotsam is confusing the heck outta me
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: he is been working on a version to improve cahce sharing by several regions
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: and having same issues, not visible on main code
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and yes bakes have always been temperamental
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It more and more seems like a case of existing code masking a bug, but I don't yet know where exactly
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how does it manifest?
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and for some reason.. well easy to understand.. only use udp texture fecthc
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The cache I implemented initially did all in memory, so as fast as it can be. That still looped like 3 bakes and the actual textures the server side got never worked
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: bet this days viewerr changes did degradate that fetch even more
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( they can t use http on that, bc http is CDN
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's like the viewer sends new bakes while already sending them and it trips over itself looping over and over until you kill 3 threads and then it stops looping, but also never gets correct textures
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and bakes do not 'fit there'
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially with their servcer side bakes, etc etc
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I ended up adding a manual bake save in avatar factory to force the internally cached bakes to be stored. That strangely runs in between the caching of bakes according to log output
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: also some content protection... their http is open... you know the uuid you get the content
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So there is some weird timing thing going, which given I made it as fast as possible with memory cache means the bug is not in the cache itself and Flotsam working is because it is slow, somehow
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just doesn't really add up does it
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably the same timeout mechanism we ran in to, identified and fixed
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: viewer side problem?
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: totally
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm not yet sure which side it is. I haven't found the part that signals to the viewer "yes I got all bakes thank you"
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It just seems to send and then much too quickly request them, seeing they are wrong and sends new ones overlapping the running send
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claude read the opensim server code compared what it did to what the viewer did and waht opensim expected and fixed it
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: actually viewer does ask abot cached bakes
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why a different region side asset cache would impact that timing is what confuses me, since that's kinda independent from that and does not provide any feedback on when it has finished
[11:18 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and waves
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All void functions
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi Lyr.Lobo
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello! 1st day of classes, pardon me for my distractions
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you *grins*
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So something signals the viewer to resend while it, seemingly, is still sending bakes already and then it never "sees" the correct data or determines something is missing and it needs to send the whole set again. It's utterly confusing
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said the fix was to tell it to store the memory cached bakes
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Essentially runs a store on assets immediately rather than queuing it up
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lry. They are starting classes about a month lather than I usually associate with start of classes.
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If I can find what seems to signal the viewer to send again and again I might get somewhere, something triggers it to do this, but I don't see the server sending a "bakes received" signal of any kind
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a bit like it sends the bake then immediately requests the asset for it and somehow it gets the wrong one or gets told it is missing, triggering rebake
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As if a foreach has the wrong sort order or something
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: order to rebake is there.. somewhere
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: also a viewer queiry abotu cached bakes
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: a bit confusing process.. and yeah time critical
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: mostly because how fs decides to ask for things withou waiting for current work to end
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see that "Received texture update" and been trying to go backwards from what triggers that to see where the entry point is. Going forward from that point I see nothing that signals to the viewer that all bakes were received, so that's why I think it is the viewer "checking" if they all present and that somehow runs while it is still sending them over
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sends the first few bakes, then requests them going in reverse so they are not found, rebake rinse and repeat
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause it's like the last 4 or 5 bakes are always labeled missing
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: well spent hours fighting that years ago.. then so did Beq viewer side
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: things are working with core cache.. somehow
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i do see me as cloud longer now
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll probably dig into that some more with TJ when I get some willpower back. The explicit saving in avatar factory seems to work nicely and shouldn't impact anything negatively
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah and burn more disk
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doesn't blow up with Flotsam, essentially just bypasses that queue to store and forces it directly
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: flotsam is working.. so issue is most likely on the new code..
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it is viewer side can fix it in FS, but that doesn't help over viewer versions any
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: that needs to be well check, bf going mess up other part of code, still working
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well what I haven't done is test Flotsam with memory cache enabled
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: dont thing GC is good enought for that still
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: but sure.. a test
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's essentially what I implemented to debug, simple dictionary of id and asset data, stuffing the whole asset into memory and it looped still
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel flotsam as a even faster hack to remeber assets in memory
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Flotsam works on that then... yeah. Even so the cache should be independent from bakes, all it is supposed to do is store things, where doesn't really matter so long as it can retrieve them
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Flotsam file cache defers writing to disk, only updating weak reference cache
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: c# has a odd thing that allows to get back memory that lost references, but still in memory waith for gc to free
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: weak references...
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have unrelated question
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Dotnet 8 support EOL is about a month away. Should we care?
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is lie asking Windows 10 users if they care 😀
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: no we should not care
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Win10 technically went eol a year ago, yet I'm still here. Microslop overestimates how quick things move or how stable their new shit is
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: k
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: version9 and 10 dont seem to give any relevant improvement and have breaking changes
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: liek floatsam is dead on it
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nonsensical breaking changes
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: KFM.. and a few more things
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no improvements but will continue security fixes.. not sure if we should care about that
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah security fixes...
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Version 20 will just be a hello world written in python, can't have bugs without code
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: great excuse to keep breaking your things
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ms is the virus this days :p
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well I don;t use Windows... =)
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( getting worse than norton possilbe )
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing stuff instead of fixing it and then having to re-invent the wheel goes against my compassion to help
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We used to call DOS a boot sector virus
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: dotnet is ms, is case you missed ti :)
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh your knee hurts, let's cut the leg off!
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah thats as close as I get to them lol
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm didnt look what dotnet11 will break more
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so no real security fixes, just "security" removals
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will probably only run in the cloud
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Dictionaries exhibit different sort orders between windows and unix, so logically instead of changing the sort or allocation, let's just remove them all - Microslop
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: well win11 is been turned into a cloud terminal
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even the gutted version I been using isn't growing on me any
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm ll did add a new texture to PBR assets ?
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one or more?
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: seen ref to one more
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: RL is calling... see you all later
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Cuga
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ....
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: The .NET 11 runtime includes: Updated minimum hardware requirements for x86/x64 and Arm64 architectures, requiring more modern instruction sets to improve performance and reduce maintenance complexity.
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is another... all love to kill cpus that are fine
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course: you have to buy a new machine. Reminds me about the slogan for Vista: "Ask not what Vista can do for you. Ask what you can buy for Vista"
[11:47 AM] Luisillo Contepomi: ^_^
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One other thing that came up in the bug fixing crusade was the inability to hg teleport to a region with the same coordinates. I'm don't remember if that was a bug on both sides or just a server side thing though. If it's something the viewer side can fix as well that might make it in if it can be found there
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I seem to recall it was something on both sides needing changes to handle this though
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something with the regionhandle encoding
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does that collision occure often?
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is a HG feature
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given the default coordinates for regions are sort of hardcoded the collision is bound to happen unless that is randomized, even then if you happen to get lucky it'll fail
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers do user map coords as region identifier
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( region handler is basicly map coords )
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for lack of a gid ID?
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: they do not use uuid
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: terhy are make for a single grid... so map coors is a good identifier
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: made..
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's what I'm wondering too. Is it just viewer not being hg aware in that regard
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, but the grid can send a unique identifier for the grid, no?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, but if there is a collision the viewer could ask the destination grid who it is
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well things do seem to work...
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If I remember correctly last time it came up. Something about needing to move actual grid coordinates to inflict a teleport that can jump to a different address and thus grid, since the regionhandle is the same it drops into teleport within region mode or something, but then the address is wrong so it fails
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: but tps to regions with handlers the viewer has in memory my be fun
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean regions in memory with same handler... ir in view
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: build a destination coordinate which includes the destination grid and teleport to it
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: we do put hg regions on lower part of map.. ( y = 0)
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: but to actully tp.. the real handler on target region needs to be used
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: anywy.. things are working...
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: so such collisions are rare..
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just swap in what is needed at the right time in the tp sequnece
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a fairly recent report on mantis about same coordinate hg teleport failing. I think when that came in I did test it and it failed as they said
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: missed that
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been a few months tho
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=5210
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel no surprise if that are "corner"cases
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: 5210 is many months ago
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: few months 👍
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: like years
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Evidently I did test it, not that I remember it
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin's Thumbs up
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great work, Gavin, on the emojis in your Mac viewer
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying to clean up mantis of old bugs, sue me ;P
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: apparently Gen Z thinks it is offensive
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: 0.7.1 dev master
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks Lyr
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: 2010-11-15 13:36
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Comment is from 2021, but I don't recall there being a specific fix to this since then
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: well like i said.. it may be unfixable
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said, from what I recall how it works not something that is easily fixed either given it relies on regionhandle
[12:00 PM] Luisillo Contepomi: Many thanks to all the developers for their effort and dedication. See you later. Good night.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: without viewer changes to support hg
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Reminder: The OpenSimulator Community Conference's Call for Proposals is open - let us know if you have cool tech, designs, research, education, creativity, AI stylings, or artistry that you want to share with the community. https://conference.opensimulator.org/call-for-proposals/
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Take care, Luisillo
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Night, Luisillo
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess you can call my entire viewer transformation AI syling, haha
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: styling*
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: when the bar closes, the bar closes *watches the barkeep leave*
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, gavin
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's what I'm trying to determine, cause if that's something viewer side can fix I can look at it with TJ and see if we can figure out a way. It may be unfixable, but we can look at least
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: you should share your accomplishments
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sessions are 20 minutes and fun
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just trying to determine whether it's viewer side, server side or both
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know. Currently shared as code and running viewers
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually I could as Claude to write the entire presentation
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: aks
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I told a person for whom I do some work about virtual worlds. He asked we discussed the possibility of doing something that could wind up being worth of a talk.
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: back then there was also a issue with tps 1024 grid coords way, if i remember
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: grid units...
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wasn't that 4096
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: think it was 1024.. but who knows..
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Somewhere in the depths of the entity transfer module
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: possilbe 4k
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: think viwer thing also
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All delegates and events everywhere almost impossible to figure out what goes where
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel rl again..
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue for today?
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care, me too
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: off to life
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks!
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit: Hey! That's supposed to be my line. :)
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, tc. Thanks for dropping by. Have fun now that school has started again.
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, what Ubit said as we are just past the hour.
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Just be sure to download the new Mac viewer build people out there and tell me what works and what don't
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok see you all next week, if not before
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a couple settings that needs admin password to change
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people will hate it or love it
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: not sure why stand anim also fails now
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-09-29

2026-10-01T01:59:43Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andres [11:05 AM] Cug..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andres
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They say that, but at least with dylibs, it does run on older versions
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Andrew
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not sure if same is true with apps
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not building Firestorm of course
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's still building judging by how hot the thing is now
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm in the middle of an important business meeting. I am just popping in to say I don't know how much longer the meeting will run. Ubit will have to stand in my stead for now. I will join you if my RL meeting ends before this one.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A new FS beta is out with the (???) names fix in there
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok Andrew
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ and I would appreciate some testing see if it somehow still shows up somewhere repeatedly
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: the one im running hates the lifeguard
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to run one of the newer versions of FS but couldn't because it has library dependencies not available on my current desktop.
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was just getting it for Vincent, but the name kicked in after a minute
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel about code changes...
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We completed the migration to OpenGL 4.1 and now working on makeing keyboard handling support standard macOS behavior
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: fixed a potencial stuck lock issue on map service...
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Going afk. I can never remember where they have hidden the away feature for the avatar. :P
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: and a few cosmetics
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also liften the color picker out ot the GL view, as we will do with the rest of the UI
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus get rid of CEF
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: cef has been causing some issues apparently, though I been unable to reproduce
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a monstrosity
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: takes 3 days to compile
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which reminds me, viewers like FS seem to download stuff on startup, which is a bit of a problem if they are used without network connection. I'm not sure why it needs those things each start
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It downloads some xml and a few other things
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: besides from the currently selected grid?
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know why but they can explain themselves
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think script syntax and some libs as well
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats odd
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda odd, but yeah it's just causing problems in lab setting when there is no net or their end is blocked by cloudbleeds screw ups
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be interesting to have Claude decompile the libs and see what they actually do
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I could understand downloading their latest MOTD
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well the mini is still building and probably now thermal throttling given I almost burnt myself on it just now
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fun stuff, not
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: should keep your coffee warm
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: just spay water on it
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: spray
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and yeah.. warm yr tea on it
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the RS/6000 machines had a code on the front panel which meeaning was "the CPU is on fire"
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 42C according to my infrared thermometer
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff my cpu is at 95
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my GPU is 85
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We need to fundraise Ubit a new, not broken, cpu
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: damm intel
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Come to the dark side Ubit
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rather than funding osg, which contributes nothing to development
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am pretty sure the mini CPU is closer to Ubits than anything else
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The last gen of Intel minis are pretty fast
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well they let me run this region and 3 test ones on their machines
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How generous -.-
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: and was informed that will not have to pay for them, even under the new rules
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are there new rules?
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh there was a meeting... I missed it
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: for those who missed the osg news... ppl will have to pay i usd per region/ month
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ha! how much?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: except 1st region, it is 512m or less
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: region owners or everyone?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: if it is larger than will need to pay
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: region owners
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but 2 standard regions will have to be paid for?
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap 1 free, other 1usd per montg
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no wonder I have OSG squatters on my grid :-)
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc you need to run the regions on yr harware as before )
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Never understood why ppl dont just get their own grid
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: who already have their hdwr
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause it's ten times the effort and responsibility to do that which once they realize or their stuff explodes they just nuke it, leaving the rest of the metaverse to deal with the fallout
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: takes more effort to set up and maintain
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still track what I can find of the metaverse through the grid_stats endpoint and such and for every new grid popping up two more go down
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Total mess
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And all that dead data clogs the pipes
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc Sl only costs $208 more
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( plus taxes )
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I charge 5 bucks for 48 regions for the self hosters, that's quite the pricing difference
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I found an OSG squatter today who had placed his build on a terrain textured megaprim so it could barely be outlined on a map tile
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: under, not on
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Surprised that didn't delete itself on some bounding box check
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll give him a + for creativity.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sim surrounds are notorious for that
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hosting others' sims is 95% of the headache in being a grid owner
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the region had build for all enabled, so that was my bad
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have a patch to config define the default region permission on newly created regions, maybe I should submit that huh
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I used to forget to change that as well and you normally can't through the console
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or list it
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I need to squash those commits down then I can submit those. Same for the agent hard limit, and however many other things that could be changed at runtime without issue
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: an admin map with all the parcel borders drawn and permissions and such marked per parcel would be great
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think mini-map can show all parcel borders
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Perms options would be very useful
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The parcel data is in the db as bitmap, which isn't easy to pull out, but drawing that out as parcel map is possible
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://blog.zetamex.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/parceloverlay.png
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it can but a larger map would be useful for an overview
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: mini map does how parcels
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: they call it "Show property lines" which is a little misleading
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I call it Shwo Parcel Borders on the mini map
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Show*
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That is a more sensible label
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is on my agenda to see how much of that can be changed to de-linden FS, but when it comes to ui things it can be a massive pain cause so much of that is loaded even before you login anywhere, so making it grid aware is not easy
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I keep forgetting that the OS version of FS can still connect to SL
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: removing SL code from my viewer build daily
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of. LL is looking to add a chat history service to retrieve the chat history from server rather than just storing it locally
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A huge privacy concern they apparently don't seem to have. Even offline im is not encrypted with anything at the moment
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a privacy issue, but probably fine if opt-in
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So their server archives all the chat without user consent?!
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if or how they handle the consent, if it is opt in, just saw FS working on support for it
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I worry more about the storage requirements for all that knowing how much chat antisocial me has so someone ten times the chatterbox multiplied by user count....
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not just go for an MS recall option righ awya. then you can search all the things you have done in SL
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: local chat only or private chat too?
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing new.. many systems log chats ( discord etc )
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc more fun with EU laws etc
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since when did LL care about EU law?
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( assuming anyone in eu cares to look )
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is not logging chat, it's a users perspective of chat, so it's multiplied all messages by users involved
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: LL will just add a bit to their TOS and nobody will care
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it was just server side logging that's not so bad, but you are exponentially creating more data the more users you have
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: needs to be grid side store
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 85 people dancig to DJs spouting emojis
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also it likely isn't encrypted, because if the idea is to retrieve from a different device there aren't many ways to create a key for decryption
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what might be more interesting is to save it encrypted on iCloud together with settings and such to sync between machiens
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: good lesson from ird...
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My chat logs account for about 50mb, but I don't talk much, so social animals will have much more. Without compression that'll just fill storage up in no time on both ends
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: store NOTHING
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: made talks with police a lot simpler
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a privacy nightmare depending on jurisdiction. But this is typical. People screaming about privacy and then also being annoyed they can't read their history on a new device
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc things alot easier in year 2000
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why it must be opt in
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you want that at opensim... go ask for a module, or a fork :p
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to ask. Yeah if it is opt in then unlikely to be supported, making a module, if the service itself follows the usual caps or http route should not be hard to create
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But the privacy implication alone is enough to not bother
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Persoannly I would not mind have it synced between machines, but not stored unencrypted or with encryption keys outside of my control
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only thing I could think of to encrypt it with is the user password, that should not change between devices and it is, normally, not known to the grid operator
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that means keeping password history in case they change it
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh then how whoul dtay sell if for ai training??
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then re-encrypt the whole thing with the new password to avoid the constant lookback
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Huge hassle to encrypt that in an actual end-to-end way
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If the viewer sends it over unencrypted it's dead on arrival either way
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is done in iCloud quite nicely but of course that probalby only work for Mac users and Windows users with iCloud installed
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: wonder how heCloud would be
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would mean the viewer fetching this at login, can't fetch only the chats you open as you'd have to store the password in memory during runtime, which is a big no no
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More I think about this the more my head starts hurting
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have settings sync and iCloud passord login in the plans for my viewer. Opt-in of course
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh so you coukd have diff machines use same settings, chat logs etc?
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: good idea
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In theory, not in practice
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not scalable for everyone like it we are ponderting LL is doing
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will most likely be a feature of the new login screen rewrite that does not use OpenGL at all
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh iClaudius was a great series
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Downloading all logs on login would be... oof
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wonder how that works on supposed mobile viewers, download 2gb of chat logs and wonder why the phone is slow now
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not how it works Vincent. iColoud does byte sync
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not sure why they would have to download
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean for the viewer chat history
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: it works on discord
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: discord stores server side chat, not a local user copy
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would be a once off operation and then it is byte sync after
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FS stores locally so maybe that won;t change, just have another copy server side
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so download not needed
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then you'd have to store the encryption key during runtime if they use encryption for it, which is a no no if you don't want that to be exploited
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and it only syncs the bytes changed
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same thing as browser stealers taking your cookies
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then you can't ever use a Mac Vincent
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Talking about viewer not icloud
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well FS can store locall now if you opt in. That could remain the same, so no need to download anything new
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but all Mac apps use those same mechanisms to handle password if properly written
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You'd need to present a login form for each chat history you don't already have to send a request with encryption key or download it all on login, which then means login would either fail or need some different handling since all that data might take longer to fetch than the login has time for
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Time will tell what it looks like I suppose
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: well not a thing for opensim core
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: looking to clock...
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other opensim issue you want to talk abt before closing the meeting?
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have a local copy on your encrypted file system with the encryption key stored in special HW on the Mac, and you have max 10 attempts to decrypt the disk in very special cases.
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for the meeting!
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our Call for Proposals for OSCC opens tomorrow, September 30 at https://conference.opensimulator.org/call-for-proposals/
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have fun!
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: TC Lyr
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( pcs use TPblabla chips )
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks, Cuga!
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( or some cpu thingy )
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll have Claude write one, haha
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Alright... I need to go RL...
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Have a great week!
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you too
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ohh a papaer IClaudius and opensim
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun ppl hope to see you all next week
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-09-22

2026-09-22T19:26:40Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: hi [11:03 AM] Gavin..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: hi
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see CLaude is here too :-))
[11:04 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit?
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Let me see if he is on IRC
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might not be feeling well or his internet went poof again
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: He isn't on IRC.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it go poof often?
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It was last week
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There was a DoS attack against his provider, IIRC.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most, well all, this weeks commits are my fault anyways so I might as well take the blame for them
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: git blame
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A bug LL added had me looking through user picks and I found a bunch of nonsense in there which he fixed for the most part. There is still some stuff I'd change to reduce the complexity of that system further, but considering it's not time critical it's more bother than it's worth
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In debugging why the chat ranges were not showing properly despite setting them I found that the concierge module would be loaded despite not being configured, but because it is a sub module of the chat module it would fall back on any function call it doesn't implement itself
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It doesn't implement RegionLoaded, which is what sets the chat ranges to be part of opensim extras map
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So it calls the chat module again, without init, so there is no config for it, meaning it uses defaults, defaults which then get added because concierge on most startups will run after the chat module has
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Overwriting the already properly set ranges
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have found a couple patterns like that in the viewer code too :-))
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: His fix to add a dummy RegionLoaded to concierge works in the sense when you only have the chat module enabled, but when concierge is enabled it does mean it no longer sets the correct chat ranges as concierge is setup to replace the chat module completely
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The option I have in local copy is to just check if the config is null and pull it from the scene if so, then set the ranges via that, which is a roundabout way of doing it, but will work
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It prompted me to check the loading process of modules to find that while a lot of them do have their own bool for enabled they still get called just the same, including all the events like RegionLoaded
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even if they are not actually configured to run
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I saw notes about concierge changes in the commits, are those for fixing this?
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sweet
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So I went through all 200+ modules, adding an Enabled bool that the module loader can check for and avoid calling the RegionLoaded and other events if the init actually disabled the module in the first place
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr =)
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No point in running those calls when the module is meant to not be used
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This does speed up the startup process measurably as well
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can imagine
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Course it's a pain and a half to go through all of that code to make sure the modules aren't doing something that needs to be done despite not actually being configured and so on
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins and waves
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is ai for that
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still have to review all that to see if some of that can't be done a little less complicated now with that bool added to not do so much internal logic
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doesn't have much impact on runtime so not sure it's worth going through all that
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is actually one of the things it is pretty darn good at
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In adding that bool I did find a bunch of modules that had no internal logic at all as well, making me wonder what they are there for
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A number of modules acting as base for others, which is a construct that is just ripe for problems
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so a complier would just ignore them?
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No but they are like base modules that provide some basic functions and then you have sub modules that are actually what's loaded and they implement actual logic
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suppose it's so you can just specify things like assetservice and then whatever is actually enabled takes over
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: makes sense
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why the concierge module is like that idk, I wasn't the evidently braindead person that wrote the thing. I don't really get what that is for and I haven't seen it be used so I was inclined to just nuke it, since most of what it does do could be integrated into chat module by just adding the options there
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since that is designed to effectively replace the chat module anyways when enabled it's a bit of a double whammy that seems unnecessary
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only thing that it does is mean less logic on chat I suppose
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sessions are only 20 minutes. we use voice in Discord most often as Skype went offline, and we pipe it into YouTube to match with the video stream. You can see examples of past conference sessions on the AvaconInc channel
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: concierge sounds like something that could run on first login to guide a user?
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It seems to be some type of chat welcome bot or something
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems a reasonable guess as to its purpose.
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: could actually be useful, say at the opensim conference
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Spent today helping TJ debug the (???) issue as we found region that reliably reproduces the problem. It seems to be a viewer side thing that assumes the url to retrieve the names from before it actually has the correct one
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is possibly some server side thing in there to make that less problematic, but we do eventually get a request through caps for the names
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: SL has same issue with ????
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately when replying to that caps call the viewer then never updates all the places it needs to to properly display the names
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They sort of do. They have had some trouble with their live testing when urls change between simulator versions so they found a bug in that a couple days ago
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is the caps call?
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that's only sort of related to this
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: GetDisplayNames
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: aha
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Before that comes a call to uuidnameresult or something that is handled elsewhere, but the viewer posts this to the region url of the departing region, not the one it goes to
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Here comes Ubit.
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: setCapabiltiesReceived is set allowing it to ask for that despite not actually having changed the url yet
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit.
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I might have claude to look at what it does. the good thing it looks at both the server and viewer code at the same time to figure out what is supposed to go on
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: (hi)
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ is looking into ways to add something in there to make sure it only asks once it actually has the correct url
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fun thing to debug since we couldn't find a region to reliably repro the problem until today
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That delay should still be pretty short
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It sends the caps one about a minute after arriving on the region so it does get the correct names, just that routine doesn't touch the nearby floater or the radar so only the floating name signs update properly
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And yeah that part needs fixing too, just in case
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess one minute with some lag
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The funny thing is if the uuidnameresult thing hits throttle or cannot respond it tells the viewer to retry after 30 seconds, so while the teleport is going it queues up a coro to ask the old region again if it has already lost the circuit
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( generating them is a tiny bit heavy )
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then the region sends it into the void
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The joys of async
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we found a few code paths in the viewer where HG teleports in particular would send the viewer into timeout void so things never got marked as unavailable for the rest of the login session when it fact it was till being fetched by the grid server and therefor was temporary unavailable
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: things go*
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: got even
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There seem to be a lot of assumptions of order in those things when the underlying design is totally async and random depending on what gets delayed
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the code is written for a single unified grid. LL code don't know anything about HG so there a big holes in behavior because of that
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I found some similar things on the server end that still lack checks for whether the client is even still there
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: like at sl it does matter what region sends a answer to some things, since they are global
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean I'd argue it is just good design to not rely on a server always behaving the same way either
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: that ofc fails even on a sigle os grid
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And like I said they have found that to bite them in their tests too hence some fixes they are adding
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As even there the urls can differ
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just less likely
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Never assume, the random sun eruption of particles will ruin your timings
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for instance we found that if a sound was unavailable when arriving at the grid with a hg transfer, it could result in all sounds not being fetched because of a 7 minute timeout, and only then started coming in
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No doubt some of those timeouts are from times when attempts were made to support dial up
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we parked them in some sort time retry queue, and fetched those available immediately
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: short time*
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL has been adding some multi threading to things now too, which is going to be fun to debug. No doubt as reports of region loading neighbors is causing considerable lockups in the viewer while it does whatever it does to fetch the initial data
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have seen that as bad as 7 or 8 seconds frame time
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are what I call fetch stalls involving neighboring regions that are not easy to resolve
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Especially on large var regions it can lock up a long time making me think it's terrain related, but I have not debugged what is going on
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just noticed it got worse over the last year or so
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no it it not terrain related, it is a combination of a burst of textures and stuff coming in and decoding it fast enough
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Viewer requesting more than it can process I suppose
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's weird that it doesn't defer any of that or throttle, it just overloads itself
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And I thought I had bad eating habits
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we have added two queues that both use all cores available for both texture and sound decoding which sped up thing a lot
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only testing I did on this was to see if different bandwidth setting helped it and I couldn't confirm that
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Sarah. Didn't see you arrive.
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we found the same Vincent
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's good to see that's getting attention, cause it has been annoying me more and more the worse it got
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it's annoying me then others must be furious
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on each frame the viewer has in essence only 2 ms to process new stuff before a frame is computed, so there are limitations to howmuch can be done and particularly if done on the main thread
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just to interrupt the discussion for a moment. The welcome page of this grid indicates an important(?) meeting this Sunday (the 27th at 11am grid time in Hurliman Plaza. They are encourage people to attend.
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me notes two minor typos in that announcement
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did they say what about?
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me frowns
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess future of osgrid
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: k thx
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any hints?
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, and while they say not shutting down, probably decision time
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: they also ask for ppl to use local accounts
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No, there wasn't anything clear about it. The one thing they did say is that it isn't about the grid closing.
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: server test *grins*
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Forgot to mention that. Local accounts rather than attendance via HG.
[11:49 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have church. I'm the organist so they like if I show up
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: on Hurlimann
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *grins and nods*
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, :)
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Our database is too big"
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Have they not heard about streaming Jagga?
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, That has been an issue for some time. Even with deduping.
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: IMHO, they should retire old accounts and delete assets unique to those accounts
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's all I have to say about the upcoming event. Just wanted to mention it before anyone needs to leave.
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks, Andrew
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, Lyr.
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, Easier said than done. Hard to know whether the assets are referenced by objects held by other avatars
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I forgot to mention last week regarding libgdiplus where that code lives. The specific fix for the font rendering is this: https://gitlab.winehq.org/mono/libgdiplus/-/commit/bc1f6dc08a659661ee4c56e67c241f998a9a2743 You can also find the current working version in there if you want to build from source to fix a local install
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me steps away for a moment
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So we can install the fixed update by hand before it gets pushed into the repos
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the reminder, Vincent. I wanted to check that out. I was busy getting ready for an industry trade show that was held last week.
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: vincent do you know if that will be merged into an upcoming release?
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: of libgdiplus
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I would hope so. It is on their main branch now, which is what the distros should build from and I did yell at canonical to do so, but of course that's a bit like screaming into a pillow as of late
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It takes some time for the distros to take note and build if it isn't critical security stuff
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 👍
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I posted an update of the Mac viewer on Wednesday with a fix that made it run on macOS 27 which was released last Monday.
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm building the latest from git now.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh I should update my mini then
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yay Gavin
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: you said it would never hapen LOL
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: uh oh... incoming. Dino coming this way.
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did I? It still runs under Rosetta 2. macOS 28 will never happen without a major rewrite (owrking on)
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, i thought Rosetta was gone in 27
[12:03 PM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope, it is the last release that supports it
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah, ok thanks
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks for the great meeting! I must dash. Have a great week! The OpenSimulator Call for Proposals opens 30 September 2026 for the conference, which is 5-6 December.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: See you next week
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Lyr. See you next week.
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Lyr
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun Lyr :)
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Lyr
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: you too *grins*
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minute item(s) for today?
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I must go too. Take care everybody
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-09-15

2026-09-15T19:15:24Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What did Gavin do? [11:02 AM] Mattt..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What did Gavin do?
[11:02 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Soooo, this place is hard to find...
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: shouted
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. :)
[11:03 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but G'day all :-)
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and has twinkling stars
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Going to relog. I'm seeing huge lag in scene loading and avatar movement
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: G'day, Mattt
[11:03 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hey Lyr :-)
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the twinkling is just awesome :-))
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me cheers
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, This site is mentioned in the web page. It shouldn't be too hard to find.
[11:04 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It is. And the link is broken.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Love a great night sky
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anyway, glad that you made it.
[11:04 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I had to go to the welcome thingie and search the region name on the map once on osg.
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Much better
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, where is the link you tried to use? If it is on the os.org site we can update it.
[11:05 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but that's about to be the least of the problems for os as a distributed platform. Which is why I'm here :-)
[11:05 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: http://hg.osgrid.org/Dev%C2%A0Outreach
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... my cat was on my table looking at my monitor. She pawed at our local Dino as it passed by.
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Until avtually standing on osg, fs relaibly returns "no regions found by that name" or some such.
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *chuckles*
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: actually*, also
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, ok, thanks. I'll check it out and have a word with Dan about it.
[11:06 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: :-)
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ubit was having Internet issues
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not even sure why they are links in the first place, I'll edit the wiki later
[11:07 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha. And apparently bake issues too. But I don't need working ears here / now :-)
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I see ears on you
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: try doing a rebake
[11:08 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Me too. But my rl ones are less grey :p
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Set the wrong temperature on the oven? ;)
[11:09 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha... I'm soooo good in the kitchen. Talented cook too ;-)
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: rebaked, but no difference to me, still good color
[11:09 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I burn water
[11:09 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, I think it's fixered now (after rebake).
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Love to cook
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Soooo enjoyes some fried eggplant this week...
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Everyone looks good here.
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: enjoyed*, dammit
[11:10 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha
[11:12 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Seeing as there's so much conversation right now, mind if I briefly interrupt?
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You aren't interrupting. Go head, Matt.
[11:14 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I'm here to show support. And because perhaps I could have been here well before now.... But now I'm super concerned...
[11:14 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Basically, I'm seeing way too much usage of ai to fork everything in ways that *will* very soon fracture os. Or, at least, hg.
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where do you see forks?
[11:15 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm just using Claude to help document
[11:15 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I thought ngc was going to be a bit of a problem. But now wtg is *really* moving in a direction which will isolate.
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Many grids have their own fork of OS as they make changes unique to their grid.
[11:17 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Until this last month or so, I figured zeta was the only issue worth even thinking about, but none of our members really care about zeta anyways. I think most of the "eventers" have shifted from it anyways, as nobody could ever get to their thingies.
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, Andrew. I'm a "slight" fork. Basically still Core though, by design.
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Are y'all hip to what Paul is up to right now?
[11:18 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oops. I mean Lone Wolf :-)
[11:18 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: no
[11:19 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Ahhh
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont give half a care what he is doing. My feeling is, if grid owners want to screw up their own instance of OS with untested mods from AI, thats their problem
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: never heard about him
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unlike the forks, I stick to mainline protocols and don't fiddle around with hypergrid interconnection. It's up to the forks if they want to break connection to the hypergrid by becoming incompatible, not much we can do on the developer end
[11:19 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The name reminds me of someone I know over in SL.
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I agree with Cuga
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch. That took me out.
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wolf Territories
[11:20 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: He's re-coding the platform in rust. ANd is now dev'ing a custom viewer (as well as a web based one)/
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's twice the dinosaur has walked right over me.
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have heard of that grid.
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rust - we had one of those before
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It's love, Andrew
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Andrew you need to hold out a cracker
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, :)
[11:21 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: You guys have a pet dinosaur
[11:21 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I fundamentally agree too (with what Cuga said). But this is going to lead to a *major* fracturing.
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claude please recode opensim in Rust for me
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin
[11:22 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Claude: Oh, I've already done that for another grid that's about to be stanadalone. Here's the code you wanted :-)
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: What are your thoughts on it, Mattt?
[11:22 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is going to be a lot of work to recode OS in to Rust. Did Lone say why they are recoding it?
[11:22 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ha. Only about 2 million lines of C# to rewrite, a dozen inter-process protocols to re-implement, and then you get to tell Ubit his physics engine needs to come along for the ride. Should be done by Thursday.
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Half the forks out there are now half vibe coded, waiting to explode when the lack of compatibility or responsible development catches up. The forking is just a symptom of the fracturing that was already happening. The primary driving factor being that everyone has different ideas, which is kinda human nature
[11:22 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I have no tangible idea, Lyr :-(
[11:23 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I just know that I do not like it, and it's about to become a *huge* problem.
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a huge problem for those using the standard code from repo
[11:23 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I do get that Vincent. ANd again, fundamentally agree.
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's see the thing run before we start to worry
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Or Wolf territories will be a separate virtual world community an not hypergrid-enabled
[11:24 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: (point of order - Claude is one of my alts. I'm just copy/pasting)
[11:24 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes Cuga. All three of us.
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most people are blissfully unaware of how the hypergrid operates and how good stewardship actually looks like, but I have been beating that drum for a decade to no avail. Changing basic human nature isn't easy
[11:24 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Lyr, that alone may be a problem. A great deal of the loves wtg. Crazy as it is...
[11:25 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: wtg?
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We can't stop anyone from doing what they want with the code. If they start changing the protocols used to communicate between grids they are causing their own problems.
[11:25 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: You haven't really, Vincent :-)
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause I don't engage with the toxicity of osw
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 100% Andrew
[11:25 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I may have missed something
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But there is plenty of resources out there and I have fired shots already to try to educate, which sometimes even took hold
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just for clarity, what is osw and wtg?
[11:26 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Wouldn't matter mate. Nobody can get to zeta anyways :p
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I never had problem reaching it
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is not surprising to see development efforts using AI tools and that reflect on the future of virtual worlds.
[11:27 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm on zeta now
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: opensimworld but wtg I do not know
[11:27 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Up until now, I haven't minded that dg exists. At least it's more hg enabled mv grids.
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh is that Wolf Grid?
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes worf territories grid... good *grins*
[11:27 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Jagga, try getting to zeta from another grid login session ;-)
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I do that all the time
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are you just here to spread toxicity then? ZetaWorlds has a system to remove users from grids that cannot be verified because of what all the dead data does to the hypergrid among other things, wt for example isn't blocked, neither is osg
[11:28 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: From one other grid, I'd wager. See above :-)
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Same if I go there
[11:28 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: avi is
[11:28 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but that's not the point anyways, and I've "no truck" with zeta or Vincent <3
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Matt, I suggest getting a new avatar on a different grid like amv and checking if you haver the same problems
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hahahaha... like amv?
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh my...
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or wherever
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean by another grid login session?
[11:29 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Doesn't matter Gavin. I did not at all mean for that to be the (or any) point :-)
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I just have not seen the problems you describe, using standard OS installations
[11:30 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Zeta will always be what it is. I get why Vincent does it, and it's really no issue anyways.
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Ubit was here he'd likely tell you same what Andrew said. Can't really change how people are and if they want to fork moving away from established protocols then the fracturing is on them
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately most don't really think about backwards compatibility, maintainability or interconnection via hypergrid
[11:31 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...until it affects *all* of us. There's no vacuum here, Vincent.Sylvester
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: move too far and they have to write their own viewers too
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, that's it
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: What makes you believe the problem will affect all of us
[11:32 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha... autocomplete. Apologies :-)
[11:32 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: at some point, it is a new product with little in common for compatibility
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's been a problem for over a decade as some grids allow for name changes and over the years thousands of grids have popped up and vanished leaving mountains of dead data behind clogging up the hypergrid
[11:32 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Because I already had trouble getting here this morning (it's about 0430 here)/
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not even sure what you suggest Mattt
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OS Grid does have its own problems
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...OInce wtg is done, half of that tangible population will be boxed into their login grid.
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a new SL!
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Gavin, I already said I have no suggestion. I'm here just to show basic support.
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes!!!!
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be little different than a grid that chooses to disable hypergrid.
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But again that's a people problem, code can't fix people, for I wish it could lemme tell you
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, exactly
[11:33 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: That is *exactly* what I've been thinking / saying....
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is good to know
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but creative freedom is a basic tenet
[11:34 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When this comes to fruition, there will only be one grid to bother with. sl.
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you believe that?
[11:34 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...and... screw that (thought it best to use another word here)
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If half the tangible population want to stay in a closed grid, to me that is a big meh
[11:35 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Cuga, really?
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you think one grid isolating itself will affect others
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well hypergrid clashes with trusted platform or whatever they all call it, even if that doesn't necessarily hold much truth, but this trend into going nuts over the content is normal. Remember Zangrid
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if they want to move around they go for the software that supports it
[11:36 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I'm not talking about that, Vincent. ngc was always going to fail.
[11:36 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...Hell, even wtg abandoned it. But now look at what he's (wtg) doing.
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why do you think everyone will be effected by what one grid is doing
[11:37 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Because it's not just one grid. You must get out even less than I do, Cuga <3
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Grids pop up, grand ideas, lots of free stuff, development might happen, the morale police mode sets in, things shift towards alienating and eventually they poof into the void
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: has happened over and over
[11:37 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ngc?
[11:37 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: What makes this effort different, Mattt?
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rust
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry I forgot the /sarc
[11:38 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: 2026, Lyr. And ai :-/ With that said, I *love* ai, and am rather invested in it (commercially, etc).
[11:38 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No Gavin. You were also spot on.
[11:38 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: thank you
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The annoying part is all the junk they leave behind with no care what it does to the rest and yeah you are right forks make that worse if the content starts being incompatible, but we had that before with aurora/whitecore
[11:39 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I do not code with ai. I've been around for longer than it has (and everyone who trained it). It really is shit at it.
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If someone is using AI to recode a major project like Open SImulator in to another language I hope they have a good understanding of both C# and Rust. Rewriting something in Rust doesn't mean it will be bug free.
[11:40 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, Andrew. And yet...
[11:40 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: :-)
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The person using an AI needs to understand the language well enough to know if the AI is providing usable code that is free of logic errors and is safe to use.
[11:41 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I kinda feel like I might be the only one here who ever peeks outta the window :-)
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Curious, why rerwrite it in the first place? Performance?
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Advocating only works for those that are open to be advocated at. When reading comprehension leaves the chat then you are out of luck anyways. Plenty of resources that aim to educate, even on the os wiki and the dreaded removal ZW is doing pointing to resources. Maybe a positive that so far 50% of those seem to be reading and understanding, but you'll always have some that want to swim in their own lane
[11:41 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:41 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Andrew, please write a blog post explainming that, and get *everyone* in the entire world(/s) to read it.
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When you have platforms like osw that do not moderate discussion and only very few if any on there really understand the whole system then there is bound to be misinformation and misguided virtue for platforms that are not actually moving things forward
[11:42 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No, Cuga. Autonomy / ego.
[11:42 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes Vincent. That does compound the issue.
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, that is also one of my questions.
[11:43 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I just answered it ANdrew :-)
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Autonomy/ego as a reason to rewrite, as Matt said, will lead to it being a closed system
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not only the language Andrew, but the complexity of the overall package. I run into that all the time; there are aspects of the viewer code that is for all practical purposes black boxes, and the AI are not able to analyze the totality. It runs out of tokens way before. Same will be the case with opensim server
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: incompatible
[11:44 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Hey Cuga. Welcome to the conversation <3
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and that is the problem for the owner of the incompatible grid, not otherrs
[11:45 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: If I'd have realised, I'd have lead with that :-)
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Matt, I'm not sure that is valid answer. Perhaps for some. There are already lots of discussions on the net about issues related to rewriting existing code bases in to Rust.
[11:45 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can't hold the entire OpenSim codebase in context at once. That's exactly why the documentation work matters.
[11:45 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: No, it winds up a problem for us all.
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can you explain why
[11:46 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It's one thing for my members to not be able to get to zeta. They really don't care. But when then they get to wtg... then *anywhere*, they may as well only be in sl.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anthropic, Documentation is important. Particularly when the code base is large. My hats off to anyone working on documentation.
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats your karma for making the grid incompatible
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yeah, we documented the 11 render paths that exist in the viewer and every time we bumped out head into token limits
[11:47 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Rust is still more a religion. Not really a tangible basis for serious software just yet.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Negative press surrounding grids cutting things off, trapping users or whatever scam Sorin is engaged in these days, is generally bad for the entire platform. It impacts us in the sense that you, as properly setup grid, have to swim against the tide of misconception
[11:47 AM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: thanks
[11:47 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...but doesn't matter, as rust is not the issue.
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If users are not pleased they will find a different grid to use
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Fable 5.1 was eating $ for the analysis
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, exactly.
[11:48 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Haha. Yeah... I keep forgetting folk actually pay money for the web searches ai actually is so far :p
[11:48 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sonnet is plenty powerful enough
[11:48 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Damn. I thought you were getting it, Cuga....
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont think anyone here is understanding you
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as to why it affects others outside the offending grid
[11:49 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When it's totally segmented, os is just a dumbass Blender with an ai plugin.
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since you like taking shots at me: https://zetaworlds.com/faq#i-was-kicked https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/grid-block-wt https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/opensim-naming-standards https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2020/02/the-informal-checklist-for-grid-owners/ https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2019/12/why-dynamic-dns-is-not-for-grids/ https://blog.zetamex.com/posts/2021/11/drowning-in-garbage/ Plenty of resources are out there, but yeah hardly anyone reads them much less understand them. Blame it on my writing style if you want. What I do is a direct response to the fracturing and the problems people create by not understanding the implications of running a grid or yeah changing protocols in the software.
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Back when Google plus was still a thing Talla Adams used to run a group there and I think she once said about people trying to push in a certain direction for development to think about whether any given direction is worth leaving behind potentially everyone else
[11:50 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I've read all of that, Vincent. ANd even tried to comply (that was ironic, given I worked with a staff member of yours who is... not who they present as :-). I'm not taking shots. I field questions every week about "can't get to xeta".
[11:50 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: zeta*
[11:50 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://osimdev.org
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What can become a much bigger problem is that the AI can generate a complete explorable scene that would take months to build in opensim in a matter of half an hour
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also the auto generation of 3D contant can completely tank the business model of Linden Labs
[11:51 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes. And it probs looks great. But is still shit, and terribly problematic down the track.
[11:51 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I think that's already started, Gavin.
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why mention Zeta? The problem you are trying to describe you are saying affects everyone. Zeta is not everyone
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why does going-rogue coding affect others outside the offending grid? Forgive me, i don;t think I've heard the answer
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Considering that in large parts the development of forks aims to fix things that are already being considered is probably the biggest fracturing agent at the moment. I suppose we are not going the best job of conveying what goes into decisions made I admit
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: totally replace teh SL Marketplace with AI generated shit at $0.01 a pop
[11:52 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh, only that zeta allows harldy anyone access. But that's nothing to do with this subject, and is toit okay :-)
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin's shout key
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I've never had issues reaching Zeta
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: stability, performance
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: More issues reaching OS grid =)
[11:53 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: aviworlds is blocked for a legitimate reason
[11:53 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I've never had trouble reaching osg, Cuga. Until this morning...
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I had trouble this morning, too
[11:54 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: osgrid has been having issues for a long time
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why?
[11:54 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: 'Cause osg :p
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Having trouble reaching some place could be for any number of reasons, some of which are outside the control of the target grid.
[11:54 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: too much inventory for starters
[11:55 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Since when has that been an issue vector?
[11:55 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: For performance, perhaps...
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't be anymore, they nuked all that
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Filling in for Ubit here, he'd rage even more, rightfully so I might add
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my inventory got zapped
[11:56 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: haven't been there lately other than visits
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I log in for viewer testing only
[11:56 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got my stuff off
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can lead a donkey to water... something something and then in drowned
[11:57 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...or dead from thirst, if the water is hosted on an unreachable grid :p
[11:57 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: example performance issue - I'm still a cloud. Claude can see me, I can see Claude
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you always have system water
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we continue with this discussion, I was going to mention there has been some code commits this past week.
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: therefore, you exist, Jagga *winks*
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I can see you too Jagga :-) You're having a local(ish) 'net tail issue :-)
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a viewer thing Jagga, it loves to hiccup on rendering when doing hg
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: no one is a cloud to me
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see you fine Jagga
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: It's not viewer, Vincent. It's network.
[11:58 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: worse on OS grid
[11:58 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: But you knew that :-)
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Much like the ??? thing TJ has been trying to debug, when it reproduces randomly it's a pain to catch
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have discovered some code paths in the http stack that will infinitely block a mesh from loading in a HG session, so working on it
[11:59 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: kewl
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes, that is coked network too.
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: shoked*
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: choked*
[11:59 AM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Ughh
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does this dead horse require more beating?
[12:00 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I type perfectly. Y'all just have sucky interwebs :p
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Before we forget since it's already noon. libgdiplus merged the fixes for the font rendering and have completed the tests now, so release is imminent. That leaves waiting for distros to adopt the change and provide the packages, but in the meantime it can be build from source
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats great news! That bug was around for a long time
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some commits this week to remove usage of .AsSpan since that no longer has a positive impact on code performance
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: .AssPan
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, that is good news. I will keep an eye on that as it is used in another project that often crashes due to libgdiplus.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit also implemented a way for scripts to use infinite as valid number, though that is somewhat of a hack, but it'll work
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's on parsing so not that bad
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, I think there may be some other things still in the library in addition to font issues.
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: When is that ever even a good idea, Vincent?
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Nan is Nan for a very good reason...
[12:02 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: NaN*
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: was thinking same.. Im sure Ubit has an answer
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That also necessitated a change to how things compare cause Microslop keeps changing that so now that's handled directly through own culture compare
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, That explains the second commit.
[12:03 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Oh boy... So it's already a bad idea, and will conitue sliding...
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Matt do you have a better way
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Yes.
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Treat Nan as Nan.
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: I think it's been done before...
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm sure there was a reason behind it. Talk to Ubit
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: NaN is not the same as infinite.
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I welcome the control over things rather than depending on system dependencies for this, since there is big difference in how platforms handle certain tasks such as searching through files even. Moving to system dependency for sqlite is going to bite eventually, but trying to pin a version of that has been anything but easy
[12:04 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: How is it not, Andrew?
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is just like LL used BOOL to hold values such as -2
[12:05 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Think of an infinite number, then tell me the number.
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fortunately it looks like sqlite might enter some level of stable now having being overloaded like everyone with ai slop cve's
[12:05 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: 42
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:05 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Jagga. Correct. I owe you a beer <3
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That is to say the releases have slowed down and there aren't any large issues open now, so now just a matter of pulling it and building the libs
[12:06 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: (not infinite, but in the hands of an infinite improbabiltuy drive...)
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The answer to the universe and everything
[12:06 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Life*, the universe and everyting :-)
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In the meantime I have finally gotten some useful data from flotsam now, so debugging why that behaves erratic should take fruit soon
[12:07 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm working on the physics Probability Modulation field.
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't expect a solution any time soon though. There are some core issues to wrap my head around first
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out... take care everyone
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In SL news, apparently they now added a bunch more stuff to the game control things, so that'll be fun to figure out
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Vincent.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ok, Cuga.
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that will be awesome. Viewer running on Xbox next
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rofl
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:09 PM] Anthropic.Claude @hg.zetaworlds.com: great meeing. thanks for letting me stay
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You are welcome any time, Anthropic.
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta 360 no-prim attach a giant willy to someone no doubt
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of that seems to play into the mobile viewer nonsense
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minute questions or comments?
[12:10 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Nobody cares about mobile viewers any more...
[12:10 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: ...only web based.
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for a reason....
[12:11 PM] Mattt.McGregor @grid.candmworld.com:8002: Am I *really* the only one here who so much as looks out the window>
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We are about 2 weeks out from our Call for Proposals for the OpenSimulator Community Conference, Andrew
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: BTW, there is is mention of an important meetings in osgrid on the 27th at 11am.
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: will let you know more next week
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Lyr.
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's right
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Released a viewer version with twinkling stars in WindLight today
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: future of the grid
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great, Gavin!
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The announcement did say the grid isn't closing. I am going to mark the event on my calendar and do my best to attend.
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we figured out a way to do it very cheap with a shader
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, nice.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for today I will bring this gathering to a close and go lick my wounds from having been trampled upon by the dinosaur. :)
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-09-08

2026-09-08T19:10:26Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome andrew [11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid...."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome andrew
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah IDK. The region is loading fine when I visit outside of the meeting and same does everything in LBSA direct login or HG
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have time to run the meeting today. I'm very busy trying to get ready for a trade show that starts on Monday and there is still too much work to be done. I'm still fighting a bunch of losing battles.
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh make at least some of those wins
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: While you are warming up, we are starting our OpenSimulator Community Conference (OSCC) planning meetings this Friday. A call for proposals will go out later this month for session proposals - for those who wish to plan ahead.
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Understandable, Andrew
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I snuck in my announcement *grins*
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have fun at the Trade Show
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, ok, good. I remembered you had said there would be news in a few weeks.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, I was delayed by the loss of my PC, but back in the swing of things
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I am not going to the show. It is in the US. I'm just trying to get the hardware ready along with the software we need it to run.
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: planning from afar is tricky
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Welcome Jagga
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: One C++ based program won't compile as the box doesn't have enough memory. I need to set up the source tree for cross-compilation. I also still haven't gotten the TPM chip working. :P
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: soem cpus do not need the chip
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I still need to take a break for lunch. I'll see all of you next week. Once the trade show is on things will get back to "normal".
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: oe win11 does not need the chip with some cpus
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It isn't the system CPU that needs it. We have requirements for improved system security.
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Have a good meeting. I have to run. See you this coming Tuesday.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck!
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, thanks. I need all the luck I can get.
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only two commits this week, a pr merge and some cosmetics
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok Lyr, want to talks about oscc?
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..talk
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: jagga may had not seen your info before
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok mb later :)
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile OSgrid is calling everyone to a meeting next 27th, abotu the future of it
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what's to be expected?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: they ask for people to join using local grid avatars
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.osgrid.org/
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is all i know..
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: got it on fs splash whne i did login :)
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I hoped you had some juicy rumors
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is a good conversation to have
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: community plans
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohhh guess the usual.. "it is the end of thr world as we knew it..
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pffft
[11:17 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ubit sings REM...the world is indeed at risk!
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah :)
[11:17 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: more like "Hello Darkness my old friend..."
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: O.o
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: talking about the end of the world.. yes ame 2 little commits
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: accepting a PR with some things on HG friends notifications
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: winehq saying they'll merge and release a new version of libgdiplus that will fix the font loading so things should be getting back to normal once that is downstream
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: jezz do not sing that... everytime you did my power supplier decided to cut power in my area
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: once for 2 days
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( well that was the big power loss in portugal and spain more year ago now)
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thank you for those updates
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, I published a new viewer build as always on https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: cool :)
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: how is claude?
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In this one we have figured out how to connect the macOS menu line to the viewermenus
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we can start lifting UI out of the OpenGL view
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm surprised claude hasn't lost it looking at recent LL commits breaking everything and hallucinating more than most LLMs
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unreleased yet, we have blinking starts on WindLight
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: stars
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Twinkling as a night sky effect or flashing as in not good?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: stars do not blink on the moon
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: numbers configurable, we do it with a shader that runs during a normal frame pass. The other viewers blink the entire horizon every 2.5 seconds
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: gotcha, so a good thing
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: true Ubit, so they can be turned off too
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: that should even be a flag on envi...
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc lindens have never been at the moon
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: today Claude dug itself into a true hole with vertex buffer stuff that also crash the other viewers
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had to revert it all after 4 hours, haha
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we also documented all the render paths properly. 11 paths for different things, Huds have it own render path completely different from the rest
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reminds me, somewhere in there on the asset decode it can apparently fail when the data it tries to decode isn't actually an asset. FS recorded a few of my bugsplats when it would get xml data or apparently even just the http status code attempting to decode that to image
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe let it loose on de-linden the viewer for us OS folks :)
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is what I do
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: :)
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grrr that key combination
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: np im wear ears protection now
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so Claude is generally vey useful but it has a tendency to go all over the place unless you keep steering it all the time
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I used the latest Fable 5.1 model to document the renderer but ig gobbled up around $70 doing it
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: outch
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: who cares abt doc.. it is all in code... cofff coff coff
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, the code that breaks for every piddly little change and nobody get why
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: the lindens who made that wanted to keep the jobs...
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did some experiments yesterday with shifting some tasks from code into the database. Routines for clearing stuck presence, but the amount of differences between db apps is driving me nuts. Wouldn't work for sqlite anyways
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: Lite on that seems to mean something :)
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And they are not persistent so I'd have to check for whether they are setup on each boot or periodically even at which point might as well do the unstick in code
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Heaven forbid use the technology as intended when it throws a tantrum every time you try
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not my idea of a good time
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: you forget than some tech was made only to increase sales cost and profit.. never to be used..
[11:41 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me notices ISP issues and goes offline to work on it.
[11:41 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: see you next week *waves*
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we found some Linden code that is called on every frame and just spins CPU, and does absolutely nothing useful at all.
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh hope you sort... err 2 late
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No doubt once you remove that code some timing issue comes to light breaking everything
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every time
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: winter is comming.. you need to keep the room warm with cpu heat
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have two wood burners, so I'm good
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's 30°C where I am, no need for more heat
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yet
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: about the stars, the LL code generate 1000 per frame but only draw 600 of them, the rest sitting in buffers one per star being discarded
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: well bet old cold stars..
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ificiant
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: not big enough to next stage as neutron stars etc
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it just use memory for nothign
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: neutron star needs 64Gb VRAM
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will also burnt the panel
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 20000 nits
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They also merged a pr that attempted to fix file dialogs in fullscreen and it broke the whole thing. Reading the comment in the code is just total nonsense, it's pretty funny how lackluster their quality control is lately
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every week it's at least one total bs commit it seems
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't surprise me if 5% of the entire codebase is essentially useless or broken
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of it is broken
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Understatement of the year
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pretty much every pass we find code that is never called, and if it was it would immediately crash, or code that does nothing
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess more than 5%
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc they do not cleanup older code
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it seems
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: think they even told that on a meeting
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: they just take it out of pths and leave it there
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: paths
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: According to robust logs there seem to be some users that consistently get told on login that they are already logged in. They were not. Somewhere the presence entry is processed twice or sent twice so the login routines detect an existing presence entry. Haven't dug into which side the problem comes from
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It wouldn't surprise me if this was just the viewer sending things twice cause it didn't hear back fast enough, but I also run two robust instances so potentially some interaction there, though the proxy should stick to single instance for a given user
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something is going sideways, but only for specific users, which I'm not sure what clue that is
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok bug fixed.. next
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do they use the same db?
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes, but checking the logs of them they don't see a login or the user if the other instance is taking it
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The proxy goes by ip, so they only ever get sent to a specific instance and usually stick to that until the ip changes
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I would expect if it was that then it would not be so consistent to specific users and I have never seen it myself
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which smells of network aka resending of packets
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any specific viewer build used by those who experience it?
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Current release of Firestorm
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it keeps happening I'll dig into presence add some logging to see if it actually inserts or if this is somehow a fail on logout
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I doubt its logout, I'd see them on the world map if it was
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I know in some protocols Firestorm behaves differently sends less or more to deal with some conditions
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also talks with some external server to do stuff + the bridge
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The thing most of the users have in common is distance from grid service itself, they are thousands of kilometers away so network latency seems most suspect
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That or the bandwidth setting messing with something
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was under the impression on login that setting was ignored though
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe ask them to ping the server and report latency
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: login at robust is http
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc until viwers is told to connect to a region, then is it http and udp
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: jagga could you rebake, I'd like to see if the viewer logs anything
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http still could resend packets, but the other end should ignore the resend if it already processed the original
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Latency issues are difficult to pinpoint even mtr is often useless at least I never seen it actually show a problem, ping is too light to see any stress related issues
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit the same please
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If login really ignores all throttles it might just overload
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: you do not see http resends... that is TCP
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yep
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: but.. fs does stupid http retries even with current connection open
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have grown untrusting of everything
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Occupational hazard of programming and watching GN
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel we are what the hour
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit could you rebake pls?
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue for this week?
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: done
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: i told you.. im prettier as a cloud
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thx
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you were baked but it logged lines like:
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ewview/llvoavatar.cpp(9520) LLVOAvatar::onBakedTextureMasksLoaded : unexpected image id: 9f2b220d-6986-42ad-a90a-b84f8e1c7532
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I need to see if that is bugs in our code
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: :(
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: do not see that uuid on my bakes
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-09-01

2026-09-01T19:05:32Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm expecting a visitor so I may ne..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm expecting a visitor so I may need to step out for a short while.
[11:00 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nearly finished my huge music project, then I can get back to documenting
[11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not cached. we fixed rebaking on HG teleport without having to use an external server like FS does
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, what music project?
[11:01 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: soundtrack to an audiobook
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, interesting. I don't think of soundtracks for audio books.
[11:02 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: it's a full cast production
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cool
[11:02 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: 8 months work
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew *Grins*
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I had to install a fresh Firestorm onto a new system. Had no idea that it does not load the grid list. Figured it out, but whew
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: loading them manually with apply was not working
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I recently had to figure out where FS stores its user IDs and passwords.
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits this week, but devs were not lazy, well I wasn't. Squashed a viewer bug today
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer bug? – do we have those?
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Connecting differently sized regions would produce a hard crash on linux in surprisingly reproducible manner
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Heap access after clear
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ dug around for a while and was able to fix that
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now I'm waiting for the next auto build to test cause I fought linux enough for one day trying to get nvidia to not be retarded
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still wouldn't recommend going for a region config like that
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( talking about bugs.. as you noticed there where no new bugs added to opensim during laste week.. isnt that great?)
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We are trying to figure out that (???).(???) thing on hg now, though apparently lucky me the lifeguard has decided to take a spin and call itself Unknown now
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looks like regions cache the returns for those requests somewhere so when the bug triggers once it requires restart to trigger again
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Unknown? I thought that issue got fixed a while back.
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: the (??) is old thing
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There was something done about hardening the server side against it so it wouldn't get confused what that meant, but this is something with the viewer not processing correctly
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: old bug
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see this every week here with the lifeguard
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: i keep telling about it, and ignored... no more pacience for that
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: i many cases is kinda self heels.. so whatever..
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It does, usually the radar also updates, though for some reason here it doesn't. Usually they pop in after ten minutes
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( the root problem has other manifestations like failes textures etc.. )
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is something funky going on, but it is something in communication getting lost, cause the data does make it out since it gets cached by the region
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's probably the old async fun again or something
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Working on getting reliable reproduction then it shouldn't be that hard to fix :)
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crashing from the bad neighbor region allocation has been around for years now, crashing every now and then on all platforms. Oddly enough I couldn't trigger it on mac or windows
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On linux it blew up almost instantly
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The lifeguard isn't showing as Unknown to me at this time.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Difference in memory handling I guess
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Normally it comes in as ??? and eventually loads, but yeah it's different, definitely something the viewer hiccups on more than server being wrong though
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: Grrrr i told here and other places and directly to some viewer devs..
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Once it works once when you teleport again it always shows up fine, so that makes me think timing related in some way
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: during teleports, viewers keep asking to older region about things on the new region
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: at sl that is fine, so they do not care
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: at opensim, it fails a lot during HG...
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: it also fails during normal tps, but that may one be visible on dynmaic textures and similar
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ telling me that's being looked into and should get fixed soon, since it was fixed upstream, so we'll see
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is a timing issue.. and a bug on viewers main control than no one cars to fix, because it is really hard and not a issue at Sl
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: her.. i said it again.. m Bahhh
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: noted, not promising a fix
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is hard
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly even LL finally realized that was a bad way of doing it so time will tell
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But it is being looked at now directly so good news
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some things just take longer :)
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: at sl does not matter.. all assets and names affected are global, so region does not matter
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: about viewer crashs... i have no reports
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still kinda seems like a backwards to leave a region and as parting gift bug it about some more data heh
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: possilble still bad handling of large regions
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: timing of when to start asking the other
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta love async *starts shaking*
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't stop asking the old till we are absolutely sure we are properly connected to the new or most likely there will be no reliable fallback if the TP fails
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on HG TP I mean
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have only ever seen this behavior on hg or when going to heavy regions that respond more slowly so it tracks this is just down to taking too long. Always fun
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did add delays on region side. only start sending things after seeing viewer fetch caps.. etc..
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: more delays and things break bc other reasons
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only odd thing about that is it seems on the second teleport it works flawlessly even if you restart the viewer. It's like the region has the data at the ready faster
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No doubt there is some caching somewhere maybe even underneath in dotnet or something, cause simulator restart triggers it again
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But we'll look into, hopefully get it fixed at some point in near future
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rolled out some new binaries yesterday to track that asset cache overflowing a little better. Checking data today and nothing makes sense. The in use asset only counts a few mb in size while the folder has 26gb in it, so either my math is off or the counting routine is not counting the correct things
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The good thing is that it doesn't leak, it eventually goes back down
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda goes up and down over time
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( a not to casual reader> Vincent.Sylvester did release binaries to his own grid Zetaworlds, not opensim core )
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( a note ... )
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Going through the code I started a rework of the caching system aiming to reduce asset server load on re-fetching when simulators share the data since they can interfere with each other. Since sharing is useful for deduplication
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Combined with better handling of dynamic textures that should largely cut the asset server load in half
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The latter might even finally allow for storing the creation string of the textures somewhere for later editing as it was meant to be
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that is still distant, makes my brain hurt trying to figure out how to do that without nuking the local disk with db writes
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tradeoffs
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: by default dyn textures do not get into assets services, they are LOCAL
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes it's when the local cache fetch request fails they burden the asset server
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a small chance the asset server then might even return data if the uuids collide somehow
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Imagine it trying to render a mesh as texture
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thankfully it shouldn't based on type
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you do that then you get what you deserve :p
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best option would be to have each face on a prim store a bit about whether the texture is dynamic or not, so a request for its texture can be canceled before it hits assets if cache fails, but that would mean changes to libomv
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: dyn textures have some nasty problems.. lost from cache is not the worse of those :(
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also another bit on each face does mean more memory and storage
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have to scratch my head some more on that
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Solve one problem create another if not careful with this
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: (The bigger worry is a colliding uuid returning a texture of something you may not want to show publicly)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: you let users type uuids..
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No, but uuids are not 100% free of collisions
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: this days ... almost free
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You know how cursed I am, if it can happen it will
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you let the tools create them
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: and keep using same uuid type
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( think we use type 4 )
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: As noted by Wikipedia, “the number of random version-4 UUIDs which need to be generated in order to have a 50% probability of at least one collision is 2.71 quintillion.”
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: You would need to create 1 billion IDs every second for 86 years to hit a 50% chance of a single duplicate.
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ;;;
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: so says google ai
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( note that basic random numbers gens are bad... tools use more complex ones now )
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Chance just waits until you least expect and it then drops a piano on you
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: ask dino about his grandgrand..grandparents
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't jinx it now xD
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at 10 minutes before the top of the hour. Any other last minute items for today?
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Have done quite a bit of progress on the Mac viewer this week – all published. I will list
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great, Gavin
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: fired claude?
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good, Gavin.
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: On HG teleports we now detect an avatar rebake is needed without reaching for an external server like FS does
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's good
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer now supports sound input from all system supported audio formats, converts them to the special wav format that the ogg decoder needs on upload
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you can pretty much take any audio file and upload
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can chose between streaming audio with the FMOD or VLC plugins and the VLC stream will do track announcements pretty much like the FMOD does
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: audio decoding is not happening on as many cores as the system will allow you to use rather than on one thread
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's just audio, video still multi core?
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and we found that Claude can write, test/compile and debug lsl scripts
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: video is handled by the VLC plugin How multi-treaded that is I don't know
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ok
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is now it should be and not is not
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea why we type not instead of now.. i keep doing it all the time pff
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The rtmp side of things has been a bit glitchy, but it is the fastest protocol, hls is supported, but caches an entire block which can mean delays of a minute while rtmp can be as low as 15 seconds
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's mostly on vlc though
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we also found that the current viewers could block audio decoding for up to 5 minutes if a audio file requested never replied, so we fixed that too
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reminds me. Testing that neighbor bug on linux today I could not get FS to start at first cause the machine had no audio (nuked wireplumber etc. cause system instability) and it just got hard stuck loading fmod and pulseaudio, had to --noaudio to get it started
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting. Didn't know about that option. Never had the program hang up due to audio issue.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After the damn nvidia driver nonsense I wasn't in the mood to debug that
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I totally understand. I've been battling issues with an embedded system for the past couple of weeks. Dealing with lots of headaches.
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Last call for any other topics or comments for today. If there are none then I will wrap up this meeting.
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Seeing nothing more, that does it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-08-25

2026-08-25T19:15:44Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: on several they just did power and thermal ..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: on several they just did power and thermal throtle the cpu
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still does that
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, you know their design target is "the next version must be thinner" and when Intel don't follow you get what you get
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anorexic computing
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: They released the M6 processor today and new machiones
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: machines
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: neural engine.. pfff
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: soon the phone will be so thin you can cut yourself on it
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a true blade computer
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: throwing star edition
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bendgate 3.0
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just stop holding it wrong and you will be fine
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't touch, just look
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: m6 ans m5 ultra?
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles* Great to see everyone
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you see a door knob, it is gavin's cloude
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claudette
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now to wait a year to get one for a reasonable price suppose, though the M4 is quite okay until it overheats
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: M7 is rumored to be on approach
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just splash water on it to cool
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fast iteration either means they are still tweaking or they full on want to turn it into a throwaway buy yearly new thing
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Consumerism go brrrr
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My M1 Max from 6 yrs ago still works great
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ha, I still test the viewer on the 14 year old MacBook Pro (2012)
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits this week, conceptual work going on in the background breaking brains over problems
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was away for a few days too
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: lazy devs... pfff
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not the first time. Blame it on the summer weather.
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: well here its raining now :)
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Finally getting cold enough to think straight again
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Descramble what's left of the neurons
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just let Claude think. It is water cooled
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc what a brain sees as straight maybe.. well nm :)
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I been going in circles on the caching thing so yeah xD
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to have little to discuss today.
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only thing to note is that LL has a project to replace autobuild with vcpackage and cmake
[11:26 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been focused on getting some new hardware ready for a trade show that takes place in mid-September. Some software updates will also be needed to work with the new hardware.
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS been experimenting with velopack as well
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: vcpgk rather
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gonna be interesting where that goes, making things simpler to help compile times is a good thing
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Building a viewer with more commonly used tools would be a nice change of pace.
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: vcpkg - can't even type today
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except a lot of the libs used by the viewer does not exist in vcpkg so ...
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still trying to get an install ov VS Code that will let me compile, build, and debug C# code. Out of the box it is nothing more than a fancy editor and of little value to me.
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh no, static deps, the horror
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: windows vm and visual studio, so much less hassle
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Until Microslop breaks something of course
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is there a day without?
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They did say they won't backport features to win10 anymore, so maybe, just maybe things are safer now. Then again the last updates introduced graphics glitches so...
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a question about chat distance and mini map
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If I change the serer default say to 40m instead of 20 for examplel is this shown on the viewer?
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: change the server* say distance
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: region does tell viewers those ranges
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK thanks =)
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What would be interesting to try is throwing claude at the webrtc stuff, more specifically janus and develop the necessary plugin to get spatial voice implemented, because that requires replacing the entire audio bridge and expand it to handle muxing streams. That's not trivial. Doable, but a lot of brainbreaking work to get performing well
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It'll probably complain about the setup as well given it currently doesn't handle reconnects all that well
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Great idea
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: give it a try
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or simpler just seeing if it can figure out a way to get janus to compile and run on windows so all platforms have a way to run it in the first place
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Always confuses me how the kernels are all written in C, but then programs are not portable
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: hard to comp on win
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: because they use a low level tcp lib that talks dirctly to linuc kernel
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: directly... linux...
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you never know
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: every thung else kinda compiles on cygwin
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Porting work seems something claude is not bad at given that's just connecting the dots in most cases, so worth a shot
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the other day we wondered if a dylib could handle attenuation of audio over long distances. It just wrote a C program and tested the lib, then wrote one more and tested to get the results out of it
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: a dif tcp stack is not connecting dots..
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Replacing the audio bridge you can use the one janus has as a base, just changing the audio pipeline inside it, so no need to start completely from scratch. Though that level of audio processing is complex and the key point is making it perform well enough for say 30+ people isn't easy
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway win is also bad on timing...
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have no problems with it being linux-only given that some things are just a lot easier in that environment
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: at milisecond level
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( at least is user space )
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: in
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree, I think getting the audio features working would be the priority
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems freeswitch almost abanoned windows also, bc that
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That timing stuff even impacts us directly in physics and scripts
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: When Vivox pulls the plug, we won't care about linux as much as having the audio features working
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: 15.6 ms resolution with tons of jitter
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal workarounds are just to keep a core burning all the time
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And setting up janus is actually not that difficult given their setup instructions actually work without fuzz which isn't all that common. Was surprised, first try, compiled and worked as designed
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: even so.. os my stop it sending it do do other things
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wellness for a tortured brain I tell ya
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh janus is a damm low qualitiy demo soft
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: sad
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It compiles on Mac!
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It has crossed my mind to have an opensimulator and janus installer for the Mac, everything pre-compiled and ready to go in one installation.
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not sure if thats a good idea or bad idea, but do0able
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ask Claude to do it for you. It seems to know a lot about Mac installers
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Actually something I can do, can make installers
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Claude could probably do it better
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I do old fashioned way
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does Apple support anything but old fashined installers?
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well now they tell you to use XCode for everything pfffft
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to reviset that shout key cobination
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah. use a py script to pack everything into place
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at Gavin
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: raise your hand of pythin is the best language
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In Norway, if we say something is python, it means it is really bad
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess things have their uses
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today?
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its actually great for machine learning
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but not much else
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: python if nice for some fast prototype etc
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: as any script languague
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: now to make full apps out of it... well... carap
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: crap
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Let's write an app in perl !
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's go. :)
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not in lsl?
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ppl do things...
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I used to back in the cgi days
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the dark ages of web
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ppl do things ppl do.. mostly.... well on not going to quote jeremy clarkson about americans :p
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: In-world youre forced to write apps in lsl. It's not so bad.
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you! I am heading out and wish you all a grand week
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: no news from OSCC (yet)
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aAJL2vwha8A )
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: He's just swiping at me, Cuga *winks*
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun :)
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Have a great week
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: hiihih
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Lisp used to be a thing
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: specially in autocad
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It was the biggest thing in its day
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was indeed
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: pff for {{{{{{{{{}}}}}}{{{{{}}}}} lovers
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( that is a lisp program btw )
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: lisp (defun double (x) (* x 2))
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and on that note, I'm out *Grins* see you on the other side
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I should get going too
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does the program do Ubit? Run rings around itself?
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: no idea actually
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Turns out its a zip bomb xD
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: been like 40 yrs since i touched lisp
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: See you all soon
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: andrew... time to close?
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am going to return to Claude to make more mess
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you guys!
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls, cya next week, if not before
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-08-18

2026-08-18T19:24:08Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I had a work thing that resulted in a late lunch. [11:09 AM] Cuga.R..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I had a work thing that resulted in a late lunch.
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Oh.... power just came back on lol
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's good
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we could hear the sparking
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello everyone
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Did I miss the discussion about the two code changes this past week?
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi Ubit
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rebake yourself will you?
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: No, Andrew
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit I meant
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, *grins*
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but I am obedient *chuckles*
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Everyone looks good to me.
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, you all look great to me
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Cuga is a pirate!
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit is a massive cloud, but I am on experimental code
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Arr Matey!
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: im prettier as cloud
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is the tinfoil hat
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: My Groovyverse outfit, my go-to when my own grid is down
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there you came out of the fog. thx
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah yes
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not much code change, just aligning viewer limits for the teleport height after I nudged that hehe
[11:15 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we were testing oscc, hence the switch here
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh cntr-alt- does not rebake now
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: adds R simbol to chat
[11:15 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: right, I go into appearance and edit shape to force it
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ctrl-alt-del most likely will
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok seems to work if chat is not selected
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me listens to the code changes while in class
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm yeah last week we did spoke about the small code changes on code that week
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: this week we also had a simple one... change the max Z to 64 8 1024 m to match viewer setting
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: 64 * 1024
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS now allows teleports up to 65536 meters, uint16 max value, so we can reach skyboxes above 4096 more easily
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well at least fs setting
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is way higher than the worlds tallest mountain
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: almost iss level
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't recommend going past 16k, gets cold up there, avatar starts shaking heh
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Perfect for people wanting to have a space station on their land.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well iss is 400 000m.. a bit more
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been there, done that...
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: (400Km)
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: and thay call that space.. duhh
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rounding error up there must be wicked
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I wonder how many actual regions you would need to build to a height like that looking realistic?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah building above 4km may have issues
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: same reason to have max region size of 4km
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is fine. it is cold up there and little oxygen
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah barin does not notice the error
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: or brain
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me snorts and grins
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't Total Recall yourself heh
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Is the 65536 meter limit mainly for TPing to adjacent sims
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's height
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: Z limit. npt x,y
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: not..
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: ahh ok
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Aka how far up you can go, before was 4096 so if your skybox was higher you had trouble getting there
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: (Cugs wonders, why oh why would that get used) *shrugs*
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: well our limit was 50km
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers just like powers of 2...
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that relevant on a float but details
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's going to be in the next FS beta, the current one released a few days ago does not have that change yet
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ also cleaned up the vivox voice a bit since I been having some strange issues with that, though I think that's down to how I run the test versions over network. It now defaults to the osp server for OS rather than the one SL uses
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: I was having issues with Vivox though its been a while since I checked. I will try the new update to see if it improves
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What kind of issues?
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Just trouble connecting initially
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: private chat
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: The problem wasn't consistent
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, mine has a fallback to the osp for Opensim too
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we did some good progress for the Mac viewer last week whic is op
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is posted as a dev build
[11:41 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: op?
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: (you and claude)
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Great.... any arm64 support?
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: used a GCD queue to decode textures on all cores available on the machine
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: patience
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: got all the time in the world LOL
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: support for arm? mb you can try https://www.castroelectronica.pt/product/suporte-de-parede-universal-p-mini-pc-router-preto--tooq?utm_source=kelkoopt&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=kelkooclick&utm_source_platform=KelkooGroup&utm_campaign=kelkooclick&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=kelkoopt&utm_source_platform=KelkooGroup&kgclid=CjwKCAjwhZDUBhBGEiwAbi5bjtjJJo59a-VRag3dTgQ8bxqlM_uTd2GLiyJ8I_Z9hfapVSJZXqRm5BoCSkAQAvD_BwE
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are trying to bring the state of the system to a point where we can start a Metal render conversion
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: with Vulkan?
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course not. withy Metal
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: even better, thats more work
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and no
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: maybe with Claude helping....
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewer may grow vulkan ears
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I really had to laugh the other day when it offered "do you want me to start developing a Metal renderer" :-)))
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Then your CPU starts overheating
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next to forest fires we gonna have datacenters exploding trying to make sense of these ancient codebases
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but texture decoding is now very fast even in a fresh region, and today we made some other changes. This very meeting used to run at around 18 fps on my machine, today we are at 29
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: so clude is better than ll ppl?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: err or makes better code than.. one should say..
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I saw the same thing.
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at some things, yes. It needs quite firm coaching or it spins into the weed
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given the recent adventures they had into rendering not a high bar to clear, all that got reverted cause it never worked
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: How Andrew?
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I also used to see 18 or a bit less FPS and now 29. I had not checked the stats in a while. Nice to see a decent frame rate.
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ah, ok - nice
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh thats bc dino is not here.. hmm where is dino?
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: She walked by earlier
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't see him at all right now. Must be far away from us.
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dino can't be that many tris
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Found, east of here
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Actually getting 90fps here now finally, but the latest windows updates weren't great to the graphics stack, messed up some things
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is changing meshes
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thow some meat to the north
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: nad yeah it is there 204m away
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Dino is near the waters edge due north of where we are.
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: and moving east.
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Finally got a 180Hz display after using a 60Hz one for 10 years
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: 180Hz to see 18 :)
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: So I can let loose on the FPS throttling
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: 60 FPS here (throttled at 60) and on battery power since 11am... Now at 22% battery
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what machine are you on?
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: im on limited to 30fps more than enough for opensim and sl
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cuga?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( in fact many games i play.. 30fps is more than enought )
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Macbook pro M1 Max
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Top of the line in 2020
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and power bill at end on month thanks )
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which may support 90 or 120 Hz max
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: it does 180 Hz
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: but not with HDMI, only DP1.2
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, but what does the compositor run at? The standard 60Hz?
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: not sure
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: How do I check?
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't remember. Unless the app asks for more it will run at 60 I believe.
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Well without the throttle I'm getting 66.2 Hz
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: higher graphics setting
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: I could lower settings and see how far up I can get FPS
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: OK getting 90 FPS with "Mid" graphics setting
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Nice for the stock built in GPU
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: but not as good as an external gaming card
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the fps reported by the viewer has nothing to do with what the desktop compositor does. If it runs at 60 it runs as 60 and the output from the app is just wasted effort
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: I see
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Not sure how to check that. The display and comp are connected at 180 HZ fixed
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll try and find out till next time
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: I can switch between 60, 120 and 180
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the display settings?
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: yeah
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then it should run at the speed you set
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: Oh here is dino
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dino cause a frame drop of 1 fps
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That was a close call
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: "QHD" resolution so that helps
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: 2540x1600
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today?
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: 2560x1440
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope. If anyone has a Mac please give the dev builds a spin
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You got a link to those?
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Link?
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: thx
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yw
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Will give the m4 a whirl next week then, if not remind me :)
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will do
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cook my breakfast egg on it probably hehe
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: texture decode in a new location is just a short burst. after that it loads from cache
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: talk with AI :
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: "Yes, a monitor frequency higher than 60 Hz (such as 120 Hz, 144 Hz, or higher) truly matters, but how much you notice it depends on what you do on your computer. It makes motion look much smoother, reduces blur...
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: "- blur is persistence not freqeuncy"
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: You are exactly right, and that is a crucial distinction. Motion blur is primarily caused by pixel persistence (how long a pixel stays lit on the screen) and response time (how fast a pixel changes color), rather than the refresh rate itsel
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: yeah, it's noticeably smoother even when FPS is the same
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: duhhh
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: you brain is just compensating for the spent $$$
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: hihihi
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Well my brain is doing *less* compensating
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: movie runs at a bit over 25Hz
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: actuall less than 25
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: NTSC is even slower than PAL
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, ok. never seen any blur in a movie theater
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: 24fps
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: well movies is all abotu "blur"
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: What are movie thraters? (jk)
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: changes faster than vision persistence..
[12:14 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 60 Hz is because that is what your incandescent bulbs blink at or 50 Hz
[12:14 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have one 600 meter from home
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: mains freq was very important on TVs
[12:14 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: sd yes the 60 and 50 mess
[12:15 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure what led lights blink at, but they do blink
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: fro my uses 60Hz is fine.. in fact i reduce gpu to do 30, as i said
[12:16 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is based on AC line frequency.
[12:16 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right Ubit
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: 240Hz... yeah.. enjoy yr power bill :)
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: I usually throttle in-world, to avoid GPU heating
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel in many games even a 5090 does not do even 30fps
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The original NTSC (60 Hz) vs PAL (50 Hz). Makes NTSC faster in terms of frames per second.
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: unless the crtap interpolated ones..
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: and reduced real resolution
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: so ppl by 8k monitors
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: to get all games at most 1080... duhh
[12:18 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[12:18 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone must be laughing all the way to the bank
[12:19 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I should go and break some more code with Claude
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: 2560x1440 is big enough for me
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: games dont even to that
[12:20 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: *waves
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: Well I should go too
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok cya next week, if not before :)
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: *waves and poofs*
[12:21 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good time to break for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-08-11

2026-08-11T19:07:20Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [10:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi Andrew [11:00 AM] Ubi..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[10:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi Andrew
[11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: well llmesh asset could have same use
[11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure if viewerts do use it
[11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: on textures then aske for firt few KB
[11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer cna ask for a specific LOD and not the entire mesh
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: on the encodeing they tell kdu to use, that has most the file maping info and loest lod of a texture
[11:01 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: question is what does it get. all or only the LOD requested
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: and info to estimate location of other LODs..
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah works
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is not LOD
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewe have to gess bytes offsets of sizes for http range
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..and sizes...
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are you getting strange results?
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Hello Andrew *grins*
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: the mesh asset also have header that helps on that
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: but not sure viewers do use it on mesh
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: last time i look they where using on textures
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the issue is how to handle the mesh header where it can ask for a range that is specific to say LOD1. Does it then get only that or then entire mesh.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: bad claude tha is all on code.. why did it ask, can-t read code? :)
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Asset_Format
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it actually did that yesterday. grabbed the opensim server code and fixed a bug in 30 seconds based on what the server expected
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ah the good ole protocols that are a complete mess that no one can agree on
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Good times
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is the mesh format still in use
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: now how good is to split http requests is another story
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: this days it is possible BAD
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: page was edited in 2017.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is faster to get data not needed that to open another request
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the reason for the question is that the LL code is not conclusive, and there are variations between LL, Kokua and FS implementations
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: if tcp data rate starts low and increases with demand
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL stopped hiding the wiki history finally? Neat
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Usually the LL code is the one that works at the best of times and FS one likely has some other limits or hacks applied to stop the nonsense from exploding
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least that's what Joe kept telling me trying to learn from it
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Job security by obscurity I suppose
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Try substance abuse, maybe it'll make sense then :)
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will refrain :-)
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd study the difference from LL to FS, that might give an indication where it could go sideways
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They had issues in the past with mesh being slow to load, but that went away at one point
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we found one today where the FS code would blow up and LL, which they had tried to fix, didn't
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the mesh header code
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not all fixes work when you try to polish a turd I suppose
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( we ignore some of those entries )
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc no havok physics block
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: another thing is that ll now uses CDN assets service
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: that may also prefer full asset fetch
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm about last week code changes
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did accept a few simple pull requests on github
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: we keep getting HUGE requests, that i just cant check
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways.. they stay there for any to see
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what are the requests for?
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The accepted ones were little bugfixes and such to various places, map tile stuff, scripts etc
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The big pr that came was just full of nonsense
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: accept one that lets you change the folder for the region tempory map files
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At some point gotta clean that up, they are only there for debugging initially heh
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: * Add MinPoolThreads setting to OpenSimDefaults.ini
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: * Gate HGUuidGatherer per-asset Debug logs on WebUtil.DebugLevel.
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: simple things i could read :)
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The merging went a bit sideways, hence patches are generally better
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: have https://github.com/opensim/opensim/pull/57 open, may refuse because we are doing that elsewhere
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://github.com/opensim/opensim/pull/49 well cant read all that... and it is clear that half is just to refuse.. :(
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is a hefty one
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Surprised that isn't closed
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel it is there.. ppl may find it usefull
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: closed with "will not implement" status
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only thing interesting is the abuse report stuff, then again I don't think many know that is a function that exists
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Depends on external stuff too and if that "works" and no one reads them it's pointless too
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: fax directly into shredder heh
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was about to say, one thing is give the ability to report, but will they be read or followed up.
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't heard about abuse reporting in a while. I remember some discussions about enabling that some time ago. Don't remember what was missing to support the feature.
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yeah. I have just hidden the UI for it on opensim
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Handling that is a bit annoying since it creates quite a bit of data on submission, taking a picture and all, while at the same time being limited to the form so really an email is better and gives you read receipts
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What actual bugfixes might be in the pr are just drowned out and none of us feel like digging through to find them, just makes it harder on everyone really
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's why I broke those sql changes up into multiple commits actually to make review easier
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't done much with that past week digging further into the flotsam cache thing finding small little oddities in that
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Monitoring shows that it grows slowly over time so either there is more data being used on the regions themselves or it fails to clear some things out, not quite sure since manually nuking it and rebooting everything seems to bring it back down even if the regions end up in use
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Somewhat hints that the problem is a sort of bad gc, but it grows regardless of use as well
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Moved to removing variables now, dynamic textures and next bakes
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reconfiguring my postgres and other test setups to full grid mode next to properly test the changes that were flagged since some are in the connectors as well and so standalone would not work to verify them
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure how long that'll take, it's too warm to think properly
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus too dry soon as well
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I get a shock each morning from the static on the blanket
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ouch
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: jzz nuclear power plants shuting down bc no water
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hungary is hungry for power lol
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we rewrote the viewer cache code last week to also take advantage of macOS, and found a few bugs in the LL implementation. Today we discovered that the caching of the mesh headers would just overwrite the cache entry if the header was over 4k, and it would be logged as corrupt mesh, when it was indeed a corrupt cache entry
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: That bug just on Mac?
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we also increased the number of active lights in a scene from 8 to a configurable 256. number of point lights in view is still limited to 6, but we know how to increase that too.
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not just mac
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: kk
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we also fixed how the popup with start locations are populated as the code tried to assign HG locations to it. which obviously will not work. also hid the feature a bit better as it is a big security hole on shared machines
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( btw who is we"you and Claude? :))
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: jzzz you are counting it as a person :)
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has the personality of a door knob, so not really, no
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You all got started before I came in. Did you discuss the code commits made this past week?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: we did mention those yes
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: not with any detail
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel some with all the detail actually :)
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: they are small things
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: yeah 2 were pretty simple
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: well maybe simple to explain
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @groovyverse.com:8002: lol
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just a couple of minutes before the top of the hour. Any last minute items?
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, anything you want to say about the OSCC?
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: OSCC is the first weekend in December, Dec 5-6 *Grins* With music starting on the 4th for 3 hours
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I know there may not be a lot of news as we are still quite a few months out.
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: If you wish to share during the conference, your ideas and sessions are welcome. We will open with the Core Developer's meeting first
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: That's fine
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: the goal of the conference is community *Grins*
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: What works, what doesn't, what you need, where we are going, and any thoughts you have on the novel use of technology for opensimulator
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( nasa is going to stream the sun eclipse of tomorrow)
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: we are thankful for each and every one of you who create an energy that keeps our virtual worlds vibrant
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: (https://www.twitch.tv/nasa/schedule)
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Ubit is feeling hot
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: good oscc is in December :)
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Yes
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: nice and cool
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: and we have time...plus a party afterward
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the eclipse will be partial here
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: well can be 2 cool.. floods etc... details :)
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: to celebrate another year together
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: it will total in a tiny corner of portugal
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: optimism *grins* that is my forte
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: and spain...
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: seems nasa will be in spain
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I saw Sapin was mention as total
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Spain*
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( and many other places.. ofc)
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Thank you - will try to remember to watch for it *grins*
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Have fun! I'm back to class *hugs all around*
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: well it happens a lot actually :)
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Thank you for your support
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Lyr
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: bye Gavin
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Lyr. I'm about to wrap up the meeting.
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Thank you, Andrew
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Addon-modules/fr

2026-08-09T18:45:54Z

Tampa:

{{Languages|Addon-modules}}

== Modules complémentaires pour OpenSimulator (Collection communautaire) ==

Le tableau suivant résume un certain nombre de modules complémentaires développés par la communauté. '''Veuillez noter :''' Il n'y a '''aucun support officiel''' pour ces modules de la part du projet OpenSimulator. L'utilisation, les tests de compatibilité et le dépannage sont sous votre propre responsabilité.

{| class="wikitable sortable"
! Nom / Lien !! Description / Fonction !! Statut / Informations (selon les sources)
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/ActivityLog '''ActivityLog'''] || Un module pour journaliser les activités des utilisateurs ou du système. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/WeslieDE/Chris.OS.Additions '''Chris.OS.Additions'''] || Une collection d'extensions pour OpenSimulator. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''ContinuumEconomy'''] || Service autonome et module régional avec support pour MySQL, PostgreSQL et SQLite. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum (alpha). Non recommandé pour une utilisation en production.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/dispatcher '''Dispatcher'''] || Une API indépendante du langage pour le script externe des régions OpenSim via des messages JSON. Prend en charge les mises à jour de scène, la manipulation d'assets, l'inventaire, l'apparence des avatars et les événements in-world. Fournit des bibliothèques pour Perl et Python. || Dernière mise à jour en juillet 2016. Une partie du code a été déplacée depuis le dépôt scisim-addons.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleNonSharedRegionModule '''ExampleNonSharedRegionModule'''] || Un exemple de module abondamment commenté implémentant l'interface <code>NonSharedRegionModule</code> d'OpenSimulator. Conçu comme une ressource d'apprentissage pour le développement de modules. || Dernière mise à jour en janvier 2015. Contient des commentaires détaillés dans le code source et le fichier prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleSharedRegionModule '''ExampleSharedRegionModule'''] || Un exemple de module abondamment commenté implémentant l'interface <code>SharedRegionModule</code> d'OpenSimulator. Conçu comme une ressource d'apprentissage pour le développement de modules. || Dernière mise à jour en décembre 2014. Contient des commentaires détaillés dans le code source et le fichier prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Module monétaire Gloebit'''] || Module de devise pour l'intégration de Gloebit. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Module économique optionnel.
|-
| [https://github.com/gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit '''gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit'''] || Vraisemblablement un autre module de devise Gloebit. || Le contenu/statut exact devrait être vérifié.
|-
| [https://github.com/diva/Grider '''Grider'''] || Un client sécurisé pour l'Hypergrid d'OpenSim utilisant GridProxy de LibOMV. Permet la connexion avec le prénom.nom et l'adresse du serveur utilisateur (ex. : localhost:9000). || Dernière mise à jour en août 2009. Nécessite un grid supportant HG2.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''GroupAutoInvite'''] || Module pour les invitations automatiques aux groupes. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Module régional optionnel.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Gunthar RegionWeb'''] || Module combiné pour un site web par région, des outils de gestion protégés et un portail de portefeuille optionnel. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum (intégration alpha). Désactivé par défaut.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''HoloPhysicsGuard'''] || Module pour les fonctions de protection physique. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Le mode <code>PersistSleep</code> fonctionne '''uniquement avec MySQL/MariaDB'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/Mod-PayPal '''Mod-PayPal'''] || Un module PayPal pour OpenSimulator. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''MoneyServer Compatibility'''] || Service de compatibilité pour le protocole DTL/NSL établi. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. '''Spécifique à MySQL'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay '''nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay'''] || Un module de devise pour intégrer la devise NSL (probablement "New Second Life") avec BTCPay. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/osboids '''osboids'''] || Un module régional implémentant des algorithmes de vol en banc (Boids) dans une scène OpenSim. Configurable pour la taille du banc, la vitesse et l'apparence des Boids. || Dernière mise à jour en juillet 2011. Testé avec OpenSim master. Probablement en stade alpha.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-data-backup '''os-data-backup (ManfredAabye)'''] || '''Module de sauvegarde de base de données Robust''' – un module complémentaire MySQL de sauvegarde/restauration/synchronisation pour Robust. Prend en charge l'exportation, l'importation, la copie, la comparaison, la vérification et la réparation de tables. Fonctionne avec les systèmes de fichiers locaux et le stockage cloud WebDAV. Version 1.0.0 Alpha. || MySQL uniquement. Fournit de nombreuses commandes console (ex. : <code>sqlbackup export all</code>, <code>sqlbackup copy replace users</code>). Dernière mise à jour en mars 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-fs2blob '''os-fs2blob (ManfredAabye)'''] || Un outil pour migrer les actifs d'un stockage basé sur le système de fichiers (FSAssets) vers le stockage Blob standard. || Étude de faisabilité. Fournit un outil (<code>FsAssetsToBlobDump</code>) pour cette migration. Dernière mise à jour en mai 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/Misterblue/os-luablue '''os-luablue'''] || Un module complémentaire expérimental pour ajouter le script Lua à OpenSimulator, utilisant Lua-CSharp comme moteur de script. || '''Hautement expérimental'''. Actuellement empaqueté comme module complémentaire séparé. Dernière mise à jour en mai 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/opensim-ai-module '''opensim-ai-module'''] || Un module vraisemblablement pour des fonctionnalités liées à l'IA. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/QuillLittlefeather/OpenSim-Addon-modules '''OpenSim-Addon-modules (QuillLittlefeather)'''] || Vraisemblablement une collection de divers modules complémentaires. || Le contenu/statut exact devrait être vérifié.
|-
| [https://github.com/jamenai/opensim-addon-modules-exp '''opensim-addon-modules-exp'''] || Un dépôt expérimental contenant des modules complémentaires. || Le contenu/statut exact devrait être vérifié.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimCities '''OpenSimCities'''] || Un module probablement lié à des fonctionnalités de construction ou de planification urbaine. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimMarketplace'''] || Module complémentaire pour la livraison directe sur le marché OpenSim. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Désactivé par défaut.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim-PhP-Client '''OpenSim-PhP-Client'''] || Un module destiné à fournir une base propre et extensible pour servir et traiter des points d'accès PHP entre un grid OpenSim et le viewer/client. || '''Pas encore fonctionnel''' (selon le README). Dernière mise à jour en août 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025 '''OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025'''] || Un module pour l'administration à distance d'OpenSim. || Le contenu/statut exact devrait être vérifié.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimSearch'''] || Client de compatibilité pour la recherche dans l'annuaire du viewer. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Nécessite un service de recherche compatible déployé séparément.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimTide (Continuum)'''] || Module pour les effets de marée dans les régions. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Module environnemental optionnel.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimTide '''OpenSimTide (JakDaniels)'''] || Un module pour les effets de marée dans les régions. || Veuillez consulter le dépôt directement pour plus de détails.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimWeather'''] || Module pour les effets météo dans les régions. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Module environnemental optionnel.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet '''opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet'''] || Un serveur de devise pour OpenSim, basé sur .NET. || Le contenu/statut exact devrait être vérifié.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-spl-sql-system '''opensim-spl-sql-system'''] || '''SplAssets''' – un système de partitionnement (sharding) de base de données haute performance pour les actifs OpenSim. Distribue les actifs sur plusieurs partitions (shards) en fonction de la distribution des UUID. Prend en charge MySQL et PostgreSQL et inclut un service compatible HyperGrid. || La fonctionnalité de partitionnement de base est implémentée, mais le stockage des données des actifs nécessite actuellement encore un service de secours. Des commandes console sont disponibles pour la surveillance et la migration. Dernière mise à jour en octobre 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets '''opensim-tsassets'''] || '''TS Asset Service''' – un système de gestion d'actifs par tables typées qui déplace les actifs d'une table <code>assets</code> générique vers des tables spécifiques au type (<code>assets_0</code>, <code>assets_1</code>, ...). Inclut des commandes console pour la migration, la vérification et la réparation. || Hautement expérimental (révision 0.4.3). Fournit des modes de secours et une stratégie de déploiement sécurisée. Dernière mise à jour en mars 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets-V2 '''opensim-tsassets-V2'''] || Une version "Test" du TS Asset Service. || Semblerait être un dépôt de test ou d'espace réservé minime. Statut incertain.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/S3Asset '''S3Asset'''] || '''S3 Asset''' – une implémentation expérimentale qui stocke les actifs OpenSim dans un stockage d'objets compatible S3 (ex. : MinIO). Inclut une documentation de configuration en plusieurs langues et un script de gestion (<code>minio_tool.sh</code>). || Étude de faisabilité. Actuellement en développement ; la documentation est divisée en plusieurs fichiers linguistiques. Dernière mise à jour en juillet 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/scisim-addons '''scisim-addons'''] || Une collection de modules régionaux OpenSimulator développés pour le grid ScienceSim, destinés à permettre la visualisation collaborative. || Le code pour les projets Dispatcher et Remote Control a été déplacé vers un dépôt séparé. Dernière mise à jour en décembre 2014.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/SlipStream '''SlipStream'''] || Une collection de plugins Robust pour le développement d'OpenSimulator. || Dernière mise à jour en janvier 2015.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/terraintools '''terraintools'''] || Un module pour les outils de terrain. || Dernière mise à jour en janvier 2012. Aucune description supplémentaire disponible dans le dépôt.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Viewer Abuse Reports'''] || Module pour le traitement des signalements d'abus soumis via le viewer. || Issu d'OpenSim-Continuum. Les services sont implémentés.
|-
| [https://github.com/vortexsystem/opensim-addons '''vortexsystem/opensim-addons'''] || Une collection de modules complémentaires spécifiques au simulateur et à Robust (ex. : avis de version, devise Gloebit). || Contient plusieurs modules complémentaires dans un seul paquet.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/waterwars '''WaterWars'''] || Un module régional de "jeu sérieux" (serious game) qui permet aux joueurs de participer à des décisions sur les ressources en eau dans la vallée de San Luis. Inclut la logique du jeu, des OARs pour l'environnement et une interface web. || Dernière mise à jour en mars 2013. Nécessite OpenSimulator 0.7.5 ou ultérieur.
|}

Les informations collectées ici ne sont pas garanties complètes ou à jour. Pour les informations les plus précises et actuelles sur un module, vous devriez toujours consulter le dépôt respectif directement.

[[Category:Getting Started]]

Addon-modules/de

2026-08-09T18:34:09Z

Tampa:

{{Languages|Addon-modules}}

== Add-on-Module für OpenSimulator (Community-Sammlung) ==

Die folgende Tabelle fasst eine Reihe von Add-on-Modulen zusammen, die von der Community entwickelt wurden. '''Bitte beachten Sie:''' Für diese Module gibt es '''keinen offiziellen Support''' durch das OpenSimulator-Projekt. Einsatz, Kompatibilitätsprüfung und Fehlerbehebung liegen in Ihrer eigenen Verantwortung.

{| class="wikitable sortable"
! Name / Link !! Beschreibung / Funktion !! Stand / Info (aus den Quellen)
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/ActivityLog '''ActivityLog'''] || Ein Modul zur Protokollierung von Benutzer- oder Systemaktivitäten. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/WeslieDE/Chris.OS.Additions '''Chris.OS.Additions'''] || Eine Sammlung von Erweiterungen für OpenSimulator. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''ContinuumEconomy'''] || Eigenständiger Dienst und Regionsmodul mit Unterstützung für MySQL, PostgreSQL und SQLite. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum (Alpha). Nicht für den Live-Betrieb empfohlen.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/dispatcher '''Dispatcher'''] || Eine sprachunabhängige API für die externe Skripterstellung von OpenSim-Regionen mittels JSON-Nachrichten. Unterstützt Szenenaktualisierungen, Asset-Manipulation, Inventar, Avatar-Aussehen und In-World-Ereignisse. Enthält Bibliotheken für Perl und Python. || Letzte Aktualisierung Juli 2016. Teile des Codes wurden aus dem scisim-addons-Repository verschoben.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleNonSharedRegionModule '''ExampleNonSharedRegionModule'''] || Ein ausführlich kommentiertes Beispielmodul, das das <code>NonSharedRegionModule</code>-Interface von OpenSimulator implementiert. Dient als Lernressource für die Modulentwicklung. || Letzte Aktualisierung Januar 2015. Enthält detaillierte Kommentare im Quellcode und in der prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleSharedRegionModule '''ExampleSharedRegionModule'''] || Ein ausführlich kommentiertes Beispielmodul, das das <code>SharedRegionModule</code>-Interface von OpenSimulator implementiert. Dient als Lernressource für die Modulentwicklung. || Letzte Aktualisierung Dezember 2014. Enthält detaillierte Kommentare im Quellcode und in der prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Gloebit-Geldmodul'''] || Währungsmodul für die Integration von Gloebit. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Optionales Wirtschaftsmodul.
|-
| [https://github.com/gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit '''gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit'''] || Vermutlich ein weiteres Gloebit-Währungsmodul. || Genaue Inhalte/Status müssten geprüft werden.
|-
| [https://github.com/diva/Grider '''Grider'''] || Ein sicherer Client für OpenSims Hypergrid unter Verwendung von LibOMVs GridProxy. Ermöglicht die Anmeldung mit Vor- und Nachname sowie der Adresse des Benutzerservers (z.B. localhost:9000). || Letzte Aktualisierung August 2009. Erfordert ein Grid, das HG2 unterstützt.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''GroupAutoInvite'''] || Modul für automatische Gruppeneinladungen. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Optionales Regionsmodul.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Gunthar RegionWeb'''] || Kombiniertes Modul für eine pro-Region-Website, geschützte Estate-Tools und ein optionales Wallet-Portal. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum (Alpha-Integration). Standardmäßig deaktiviert.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''HoloPhysicsGuard'''] || Modul für Physik-Schutzfunktionen. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Der <code>PersistSleep</code>-Modus funktioniert '''nur mit MySQL/MariaDB'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/Mod-PayPal '''Mod-PayPal'''] || Ein PayPal-Modul für OpenSimulator. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''MoneyServer-Kompatibilität'''] || Kompatibilitätsdienst für das etablierte DTL/NSL-Protokoll. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. '''MySQL-spezifisch'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay '''nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay'''] || Ein Währungsmodul zur Integration der NSL-Währung (vermutlich "New Second Life") mit BTCPay. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/osboids '''osboids'''] || Ein Regionsmodul, das Schwarmalgorithmen (Boids) in einer OpenSim-Szene implementiert. Konfigurierbar für Schwarmgröße, Geschwindigkeit und Aussehen der Boids. || Letzte Aktualisierung Juli 2011. Getestet mit OpenSim-master. Vermutlich Alpha-Status.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-data-backup '''os-data-backup (ManfredAabye)'''] || '''Robust-Datenbank-Backup-Addon''' – ein MySQL-Backup/Restore/Sync-Addon für Robust. Unterstützt tabellenweises Exportieren, Importieren, Kopieren, Vergleichen, Prüfen und Reparieren. Funktioniert mit lokalen Dateisystemen und WebDAV-basiertem Cloud-Speicher. Version 1.0.0 Alpha. || Nur MySQL. Bietet umfangreiche Konsolenbefehle (z.B. <code>sqlbackup export all</code>, <code>sqlbackup copy replace users</code>). Letzte Aktualisierung März 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-fs2blob '''os-fs2blob (ManfredAabye)'''] || Ein Werkzeug zur Migration von Assets aus einem dateisystembasierten Asset-Speicher (FSAssets) zurück in den standardmäßigen Blob-basierten Asset-Speicher. || Machbarkeitsstudie. Stellt ein Werkzeug (<code>FsAssetsToBlobDump</code>) für diese Migration bereit. Letzte Aktualisierung Mai 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/Misterblue/os-luablue '''os-luablue'''] || Ein experimentelles Addon-Modul, das Lua-Skripting in OpenSimulator hinzufügt, unter Verwendung von Lua-CSharp als Skript-Engine. || '''Hochgradig experimentell'''. Derzeit als separates Addon-Modul verpackt. Letzte Aktualisierung Mai 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/opensim-ai-module '''opensim-ai-module'''] || Ein Modul vermutlich für KI-bezogene Funktionalitäten. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/QuillLittlefeather/OpenSim-Addon-modules '''OpenSim-Addon-modules (QuillLittlefeather)'''] || Vermutlich eine Sammlung verschiedener Add-on-Module. || Genaue Inhalte/Status müssten geprüft werden.
|-
| [https://github.com/jamenai/opensim-addon-modules-exp '''opensim-addon-modules-exp'''] || Ein experimentelles Repository mit Add-on-Modulen. || Genaue Inhalte/Status müssten geprüft werden.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimCities '''OpenSimCities'''] || Ein Modul, das vermutlich mit Stadtbau- oder Stadtplanungsfunktionen zusammenhängt. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimMarketplace'''] || Add-on für die Direktlieferung im OpenSim-Marktplatz. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Standardmäßig deaktiviert.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim-PhP-Client '''OpenSim-PhP-Client'''] || Ein Modul, das eine saubere, erweiterbare Grundlage für die Bedienung und Verarbeitung von PHP-Endpunkten zwischen einem OpenSim-Grid und Viewer/Client bieten soll. || '''Noch nicht funktionsfähig''' (laut README). Letzte Aktualisierung August 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025 '''OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025'''] || Ein Modul für die Fernverwaltung von OpenSim. || Genaue Inhalte/Status müssten geprüft werden.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimSearch'''] || Kompatibilitätsclient für die Viewer-Verzeichnissuche. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Erfordert einen separat bereitgestellten, kompatiblen Suchdienst.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimTide (Continuum)'''] || Modul für Gezeiten-Effekte in Regionen. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Optionales Umgebungsmodul.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimTide '''OpenSimTide (JakDaniels)'''] || Ein Modul für Gezeiten-Effekte in Regionen. || Für Details bitte direkt das Repository konsultieren.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimWeather'''] || Modul für Wetter-Effekte in Regionen. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Optionales Umgebungsmodul.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet '''opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet'''] || Ein Währungsserver für OpenSim, basierend auf .NET. || Genaue Inhalte/Status müssten geprüft werden.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-spl-sql-system '''opensim-spl-sql-system'''] || '''SplAssets''' – ein Hochleistungs-Datenbank-Sharding-System für OpenSim-Assets. Verteilt Assets basierend auf der UUID-Verteilung auf mehrere Datenbank-Shards. Unterstützt MySQL und PostgreSQL und enthält einen HyperGrid-kompatiblen Dienst. || Die Kern-Sharding-Funktionalität ist implementiert, aber die Asset-Datenspeicherung erfordert derzeit noch einen Fallback-Dienst. Konsolenbefehle für Überwachung und Migration verfügbar. Letzte Aktualisierung Oktober 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets '''opensim-tsassets'''] || '''TS Asset Service''' – ein typisiertes Tabellen-Asset-System, das Assets aus einer generischen <code>assets</code>-Tabelle in typspezifische Tabellen (<code>assets_0</code>, <code>assets_1</code>, ...) verschiebt. Enthält Konsolenbefehle für Migration, Überprüfung und Reparatur. || Hochgradig experimentell (Version 0.4.3). Bietet Fallback-Modi und eine sichere Einführungsstrategie. Letzte Aktualisierung März 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets-V2 '''opensim-tsassets-V2'''] || Eine "Test"-Version des TS Asset Service. || Scheint ein minimales Test- oder Platzhalter-Repository zu sein. Status unklar.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/S3Asset '''S3Asset'''] || '''S3 Asset''' – eine experimentelle Implementierung, die OpenSim-Assets in einem S3-kompatiblen Objektspeicher (z.B. MinIO) speichert. Enthält Konfigurationsdokumentation in mehreren Sprachen und ein Verwaltungsskript (<code>minio_tool.sh</code>). || Machbarkeitsstudie. Derzeit in Entwicklung; die Dokumentation ist auf mehrere Sprachdateien aufgeteilt. Letzte Aktualisierung Juli 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/scisim-addons '''scisim-addons'''] || Eine Sammlung von OpenSimulator-Regionsmodulen, die für das ScienceSim-Grid entwickelt wurden und die kollaborative Visualisierung ermöglichen sollen. || Der Code für die Dispatcher- und Remote-Control-Projekte wurde in ein separates Repository verschoben. Letzte Aktualisierung Dezember 2014.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/SlipStream '''SlipStream'''] || Eine Sammlung von Robust-Plugins für die OpenSimulator-Entwicklung. || Letzte Aktualisierung Januar 2015.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/terraintools '''terraintools'''] || Ein Modul für Geländewerkzeuge. || Letzte Aktualisierung Januar 2012. Im Repository ist keine weitere Beschreibung verfügbar.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Viewer Abuse Reports'''] || Modul für die Verarbeitung von Missbrauchsmeldungen, die über den Viewer eingereicht werden. || Aus OpenSim-Continuum. Die Dienste sind implementiert.
|-
| [https://github.com/vortexsystem/opensim-addons '''vortexsystem/opensim-addons'''] || Eine Sammlung von simulator- und Robust-spezifischen Add-ons (z.B. Versionshinweise, Gloebit-Währung). || Enthält mehrere Add-ons in einem Paket.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/waterwars '''WaterWars'''] || Ein "Serious Game"-Regionsmodul, das es Spielern ermöglicht, an Entscheidungen über Wasserressourcen im San Luis Valley teilzunehmen. Enthält Spiellogik, OARs für die Umgebung und eine Web-Oberfläche. || Letzte Aktualisierung März 2013. Erfordert OpenSimulator 0.7.5 oder höher.
|}

Die hier gesammelten Informationen erheben keinen Anspruch auf Vollständigkeit oder Aktualität. Für die genauesten und aktuellsten Informationen zu einem Modul sollten Sie immer das jeweilige Repository direkt einsehen.

[[Category:Getting Started]]

Addon-modules

2026-08-09T18:33:47Z

Tampa: Searches don't link to anything and webrtc is merged so linking to the addon module doesn't make sense

{{Languages|Addon-modules}}

== Add-on Modules for OpenSimulator (Community Collection) ==

The following table summarizes a number of add-on modules developed by the community. '''Please note:''' There is '''no official support''' for these modules from the OpenSimulator project. Use, compatibility testing, and troubleshooting are your own responsibility.

{| class="wikitable sortable"
! Name / Link !! Description / Function !! Status / Info (from sources)
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/ActivityLog '''ActivityLog'''] || A module for logging user or system activity. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/WeslieDE/Chris.OS.Additions '''Chris.OS.Additions'''] || A collection of additions for OpenSimulator. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''ContinuumEconomy'''] || Standalone service and region module with support for MySQL, PostgreSQL, and SQLite. || From OpenSim-Continuum (alpha). Not recommended for live operation.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/dispatcher '''Dispatcher'''] || A language-independent API for external scripting of OpenSim regions using JSON messaging. Supports scene updates, asset manipulation, inventory, avatar appearance, and in-world events. Comes with Perl and Python libraries. || Last updated July 2016. Part of the code was moved from the scisim-addons repository.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleNonSharedRegionModule '''ExampleNonSharedRegionModule'''] || A heavily commented example module implementing the OpenSimulator NonSharedRegionModule interface. Designed as a learning resource for module development. || Last updated January 2015. Includes detailed comments in the source code and prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/ExampleSharedRegionModule '''ExampleSharedRegionModule'''] || A heavily commented example module implementing the OpenSimulator SharedRegionModule interface. Designed as a learning resource for module development. || Last updated December 2014. Includes detailed comments in the source code and prebuild.xml.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Gloebit money module'''] || Currency module for integrating Gloebit. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Optional economy module.
|-
| [https://github.com/gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit '''gloebit/opensim-moneymodule-gloebit'''] || Presumably another Gloebit currency module. || Exact content/status would need to be checked.
|-
| [https://github.com/diva/Grider '''Grider'''] || A secure client for OpenSim's Hypergrid using LibOMV's GridProxy. Enables login with First.Last and the user server address (e.g., localhost:9000). || Last updated August 2009. Requires a grid supporting HG2.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''GroupAutoInvite'''] || Module for automatic group invitations. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Optional region module.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Gunthar RegionWeb'''] || Combined module for a per-region website, protected estate tools, and an optional wallet portal. || From OpenSim-Continuum (alpha integration). Disabled by default.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''HoloPhysicsGuard'''] || Module for physics protection functions. || From OpenSim-Continuum. <code>PersistSleep</code> mode works '''only with MySQL/MariaDB'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/SnoopyPfeffer/Mod-PayPal '''Mod-PayPal'''] || A PayPal module for OpenSimulator. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''MoneyServer Compatibility'''] || Compatibility service for the established DTL/NSL protocol. || From OpenSim-Continuum. '''MySQL-specific'''.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay '''nsl-opensim-currency-for-btcpay'''] || A currency module for integrating NSL (likely "New Second Life") currency with BTCPay. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/osboids '''osboids'''] || A region module implementing flocking algorithms (Boids) within an OpenSim scene. Configurable for flock size, speed, and boid appearance. || Last updated July 2011. Tested against OpenSim master. Likely alpha status.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-data-backup '''ManfredAabye/os-data-backup'''] || '''Robust Database Backup Addon''' – a MySQL backup/restore/sync addon for Robust. Supports table-wise export, import, copy, compare, check, and repair. Works with local filesystems and WebDAV-based cloud storage. Version 1.0.0 Alpha. || MySQL-only. Provides extensive console commands (e.g., <code>sqlbackup export all</code>, <code>sqlbackup copy replace users</code>). Last updated March 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/os-fs2blob '''ManfredAabye/os-fs2blob'''] || A tool to migrate assets from a file-system-based asset store (FSAssets) back to the default blob-based asset store. || Feasibility study. Provides a tool (<code>FsAssetsToBlobDump</code>) for this migration. Last updated May 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/Misterblue/os-luablue '''os-luablue'''] || An experimental addon-module to add Lua language scripting to OpenSimulator, using Lua-CSharp as a script engine. || '''Highly experimental'''. Currently packaged as a separate addon-module. Last updated May 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/AdilElFarissi/opensim-ai-module '''opensim-ai-module'''] || A module presumably for AI-related functionalities. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/QuillLittlefeather/OpenSim-Addon-modules '''OpenSim-Addon-modules (QuillLittlefeather)'''] || Presumably a collection of various add-on modules. || Exact content/status would need to be checked.
|-
| [https://github.com/jamenai/opensim-addon-modules-exp '''opensim-addon-modules-exp'''] || An experimental repository with add-on modules. || Exact content/status would need to be checked.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimCities '''OpenSimCities'''] || A module presumably related to city-building or urban simulation features. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimMarketplace'''] || Add-on for direct delivery in the OpenSim marketplace. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Disabled by default.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim-PhP-Client '''OpenSim-PhP-Client'''] || A module intended to provide a clean, extensible foundation for serving and handling PHP endpoints between an OpenSim grid and viewer/client. || '''Not yet functional''' (as stated in the README). Last updated August 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025 '''OpenSim.RemoteAdmin.2025'''] || A module for remote administration of OpenSim. || Exact content/status would need to be checked.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimSearch'''] || Compatibility client for the viewer directory search. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Requires a separately deployed compatible search service.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimTide (Continuum)'''] || Module for tide effects in regions. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Optional environment module.
|-
| [https://github.com/JakDaniels/OpenSimTide '''OpenSimTide (JakDaniels)'''] || A module for tide effects in regions. || Please refer to the repository directly for details.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''OpenSimWeather'''] || Module for weather effects in regions. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Optional environment module.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet '''opensimcurrencyserver-dotnet'''] || A currency server for OpenSim, based on .NET. || Exact content/status would need to be checked.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-spl-sql-system '''opensim-spl-sql-system'''] || '''SplAssets''' – a high-performance database sharding system for OpenSim assets. Distributes assets across multiple database shards based on UUID distribution. Supports MySQL and PostgreSQL, and includes HyperGrid-compatible service. || Core sharding functionality is implemented, but asset data storage currently still requires a fallback service. Console commands available for monitoring and migration. Last updated October 2025.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets '''opensim-tsassets'''] || '''TS Asset Service''' – a typed table asset system that moves assets from a generic <code>assets</code> table into type-specific tables (<code>assets_0</code>, <code>assets_1</code>, ...). Includes console commands for migration, verification, and repair. || Highly experimental (revision 0.4.3). Provides fallback modes and a safe rollout strategy. Last updated March 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/opensim-tsassets-V2 '''opensim-tsassets-V2'''] || A "Test" version of the TS Asset Service. || Appears to be a minimal test or placeholder repository. Status unclear.
|-
| [https://github.com/ManfredAabye/S3Asset '''S3Asset'''] || '''S3 Asset''' – an experimental implementation that stores OpenSim assets in an S3-compatible object store (e.g., MinIO). Includes configuration documentation in multiple languages and a management script (<code>minio_tool.sh</code>). || Feasibility study. Currently under development; documentation is split into multiple language files. Last updated July 2026.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/scisim-addons '''scisim-addons'''] || A collection of OpenSimulator region modules developed for the ScienceSim grid, intended to enable collaborative visualization. || Code for the Dispatcher and remote control projects has been moved to a separate repository. Last updated December 2014.
|-
| [https://github.com/BlueWall/SlipStream '''SlipStream'''] || A collection of Robust plugins for OpenSimulator development. || Last updated January 2015.
|-
| [https://github.com/jonc/terraintools '''terraintools'''] || A module for terrain tools. || Last updated January 2012. No further description available in the repository.
|-
| [https://github.com/Ramius1701/OpenSim-Continuum/tree/master/addon-modules '''Viewer Abuse Reports'''] || Module for processing abuse reports submitted via the viewer. || From OpenSim-Continuum. Services are implemented.
|-
| [https://github.com/vortexsystem/opensim-addons '''vortexsystem/opensim-addons'''] || A collection of simulator- and Robust-specific add-ons (e.g., version notices, Gloebit currency). || Contains multiple add-ons in one package.
|-
| [https://github.com/cmickeyb/waterwars '''WaterWars'''] || A "serious game" region module that allows players to take part in water resource decisions in the San Luis Valley. Includes game logic, OARs for the environment, and a web UI. || Last updated March 2013. Requires OpenSimulator 0.7.5 or later.
|}

The information collected here is not guaranteed to be complete or up-to-date. For the most accurate and current information about a module, you should always check the respective repository directly.

[[Category:Getting Started]]

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-08-04

2026-08-04T19:46:09Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me waves hello [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I almost feel like I'm here on the w..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me waves hello
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I almost feel like I'm here on the wrong day.
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's tuesday though
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least last I checked
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I know. I looked at the corner of my screen to make sure it was indeed Tuesday.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hello =)
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Talkative3 group today
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Moving muscles is hard work in this heat
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a big cooler here today. High of only 28C and little humidity.
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are also a small group today.
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 28C is pleasant
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not much to report, devs have been cooked to a crisp anyways
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Things seem pretty stable, in general. I'm sure the recent cosmetics helped too
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have all of what Gavin reported in the pipeline, but also digging into flotsam since I had that blow itself to bits a couple days ago
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thinking is not easy when the protein in the brain is stiffer than the bone surrounding it
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: How did it explode?
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 24gb of disk usage
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More than 10 is abnormal in most cases
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why did that happen?
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's what I am trying to determine, but I gotta find the offending region first since the folder is shared I don't know which one is doing all the writes
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So putting in some more stat output to dig into that and monitor
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ahh.... So maybe separate flotsam cache directories is a good idea?
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If it is writing prim data look for writes of a prim that is only in one region vs another. Not sure if that would help.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sharing folder means some level of deduplication as it would otherwise likely consume even more space when most regions load the same basic assets
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Once I know which region is claiming all the in use assets I might know where they are coming from
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If that leads nowhere then it must be dynamic stuff
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did try looking up uuids in there and found none in the db so that leads me to think it's dynamic texture flooding
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the more reason to dig into that and see if that cannot be handled more gracefully so empty caches there don't cause the asset request spam they currently do
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Got a couple dumpster fires to put out
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Maybe some script is re-texturing something continuously
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or.... notecards
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: How many regions do youhave running?
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which is both a good and bad thing. You want it to do that rather than trying to load them from disk cache which might fail and spam assets, but doing too many also spams the disk
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some have 40, some 300
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The stats vary
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not all caches were overflowing either, just specific ones
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. You are testing on more than one system.
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hopefully I can make sense of this at some point as the caches are steadily growing and disk space doesn't grow on trees
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should have some more once I can roll out monitoring and get the pieces of info I need to point fingers
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I had someone tell me once that disk space is cheap.
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Meanwhile I made some progress on libgdiplus
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the font crash?
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, good. I've been too busy to work on it. There is an industry trade coming up in about 6 weeks. I'm one of the people getting ready for it.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Talking to harfbuzz it seems clear the proposed fixes for it would work, but they, like winehq also would like to know the root cause of the problem rather than slapping a bandaid on it
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: s/trade/trade show/
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did propose to push the fixes in despite that just so upstream we could get a working build
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jagga. Didn't see you arrive.
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Are the fixes for harfbuzz or pango?
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That dino pass just about wiped me out.
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What needs to be found is why seemingly the hb call to create the font structure doesn't tell pango about it and so the routine for registering it likely fails silently. The subsequent call to then register them goes through so it means they do work. It smells a bit like a timing thing or perhaps something with locking the font as resource
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's hard to say what the problem might be in pango as I don't even know where to dig into that codebase and I'm not a C dev either so I'm just barking up trees
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats deep i the engine
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to see if and how to contact anyone maintaining pango to help with this
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh yeah dinamic textures may be a reason for that disk usage
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's when having the source files is handy. Build them both with debugging enabled. Run it via gdb. If you want to pull out the big guns (if it is memory related) you can use valgrind.
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: in same cases older ones on same face are removed, but not always
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What bothers me most is the inconsistency in test results depending on how the tests are run.
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was able to reproduce those, but I think that's just bad test deconstruction rather than indicating a problem
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: test deconstruction? wonder what is that :)
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cleanup of stuff
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could also be tests somehow depending on each other
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Feels a bit like it as order of tests makes a difference.
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would need to read and understand the tests to determine that, but the way it fails and succeeds with some patterns in there makes me think that might be the cause
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like seeing 3 tests in a row and a failure quite a lot in my testing so those are suspect... or well any other combination that might somehow interfere
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: When the tests crash I'm not always sure which test it was running at the time. I may have to modify the main runner of the scripts to make it clearer which test is being run.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tests should ideally be self contained so running consecutive or out of order should not cause problems, leave anything behind or depend on stuff
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Exactly.
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly no the case..
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recognized some patterns in there. If Gavin was here maybe something to throw at an ai and run through to figure out which tests aren't clean
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: even in old c
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: things stay behind..
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or run a thousand tests and some basic python pattern recognition heh, uses less water
[11:28 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles in greeting
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hey Lyr
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: Lyr :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me waves to Lyr
[11:29 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins at everyone
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had a physics related simulator crash as well a few days ago, switching to basicphysics it's back running so gotta find what's causing that, fun times with 50k prims on there
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Deep in some dependency as the error is a bad_alloc
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Reminds me of tracking down prims causing a region crash that was also physics related. Physical prim was partly under land.
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Same issue if at sim edge
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have seen a lot of bad alloc ones with bullet and crossings of physical objects, for a ubode region to just explode immediately after startup like that is interesting
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It loads all prims and all that then poofs
[11:32 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The issue I had back then was a prim not at a sim edge.
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mine at sim edge didn;t cause crash but huge CPU spike
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have not been to that region yet, so haven't looked if there is any funky stuff
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubode to solve somememory release issues uses a lot of stack
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: remember that option to tell linux to give more
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not running out at least, did check for that
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe requesting too big a chunk though
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: sometimes it does blowup very hard :)
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bad_alloc has a number of fatal failure conditions
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Plus I don't even know if this is ubode itself or something that talks with dotnet
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun fun fun :)
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: debug always fun
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just get bad_alloc, which could come from a lot of places, only known part so far is that memory is available and it's physics or mesher related
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I always attract the weird bugs
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did ubode give error message?
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope, just bad_alloc() app terminating
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: usual things to blame : meshes :)
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ayup
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Maybe crappy mesh somewhere
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of that actually. I saw something deeply concerning. Someone has been putting meshes directly into oars to bypass the viewer and simulator side checks for uploading it. Now I would hope I don't have to say how utterly problematic that is in terms of like everything from simulators crashing to viewers exploding. These checks exist for a reason, bypassing them can and likely will lead to tears
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why oh why would someone want to do that?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Likely because making good mesh isn't as easy as downloading crap from the internet and stuffing it into a zip file
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we saw ppl in past telling how to change region code to remove mesh validation tests... so... duhh
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: "ohh ppl they are stupid.. errr strange.. "
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stupid, and desperate for content
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( doors told that ..)
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The problem is that content might not just be bad for their setups, but when shared will go around crashing stuff like bad_alloc
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgHaGrZkkv4
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But thinking about the problems one causes for other people has left the building long ago I fear
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Consequences... what's that
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: see... people are stupid.. wee strange..
[11:41 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Except everyone even unwillingly involved gets a participation trophy with nonsense like that
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: well pay a few dozen euros for a virtual weapon in a game.. etc :)
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: well whatever
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: now ppl are more asking have you seen the rain...
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMDmPLUiaGo
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Validates my Well now I feel even better about importing all the mesh on my grid
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Those probably most in need of reading it likely won't, but to re-iterate: When making pull requests against the github mirror, single branch, single change in few concise commits and explain what, why and how. Just saying that again, cause we got another massive pull requests with features that were already rejected. No description, tons of commits and continuing to push more in there. 80k lines of changes are impossible to review and dissect for the things we might actually be interested in
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Preferred is mantis with a patch file either way so as to not split attention across multiple things
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: AI generated?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://github.com/opensim/opensim/pull/49
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: just can-t check all that
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: and it is clear it adds things we do not want..
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: maybe a money module
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In terms of that pr I didn't check. Generally if it is assisted by that and the code is understood there is not much in the way of taking a look at that and even merging it I'd say. The stance has been that the author is responsible for the code and that is the human. Fully ai generated code and pr's are likely to be rejected outright
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: displaynames.. experiences.. etc
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: ans yes it has AI gen things inside
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A dev using a tool is fine, being a tool is not ;)
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: not necessary all
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Likely ppl trying to boost their ego or appearance of experience showing their "contribution" for job interviews
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess some nice things there
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tend to defer to that for Linq these days as I can never remember all that syntax sugar and weird delegate stuff, but I can figure out what the final product does and when to kick Linq to the curb xD
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway impossible to import as a PR
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anything good that might be in there is lost in the mess
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thinking of a mess it reminds me about this past week. I went to update my copy of Firestorm but found I can't do it at this time. The devs bumped the versions of library dependencies. I don't have a new enough glibc library for the latest version FS.
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Using Debian 13?
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Mint 21. I have been trying out LMDE on a laptop. Latest LMDE which uses Debian 13.
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have been wanting to update the distro on my desktop but I couldn't afford the downtime.
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Suggest making dual boot next time you do installation. So you have an upgrade path without sacrificing current
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Doing a fresh Linux install may help get rid of a lot of libraries that I no longer need. My 40GB root partition is getting rather full.
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have been multi-boot since I started using Linux.I have four 40GB partitions set aside for different Linux distros.
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh perfect =)
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah, its time consuming to set up
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a 17 page document that tells me what I need to do when I do a fresh install. It gets me back up to where I was in terms of installed programs and libraries in hours rather than days/weeks.
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm still running Compiz cube on one of my distros =)
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't turned on Compiz other than any basic part of it.
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It's not good... buggy ... but noce eye candy for 30 seconds
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nice*
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, wobbly windows can be fun.
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minutes items for today?
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me whispers that he has a cat wanting attention and another wanting play time.
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing new here
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will wrap up this gathering.
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Qhick question...
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: will it break anything if I just delete the flotsam cache on a live system?
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hard to type with a cat having his paws over one arm.
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: delete while not running ok?
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: regions depend a lot o it
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: on..
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok to delete while OS not running?
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( not to mention dynamic textures ..)
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: im just telling regions depend on it..
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc you cna delete the folder...
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If I do that when OS not running will it make stuff break?
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah better with all regions that use that folder offline
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or should I not touch it and let GC do its job
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: note that you will lose all dyn textures
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: and things the for some reason failed to get into assets dbs
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh dyn textures you mean the ones created with the OS-lsl scripts
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: GC? GC is about memory not cache
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok, then I mean whatever is the built-i mechanism
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in*
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: you can instead run its expire comand
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK thanks I will try that
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: that does check for assets in use on that region
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: gotta run.
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just seeing now that y flotsam cache folder os pretty big and I don;t have a lot of traffic
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc if it is a shared folder, it will not see other regions assets
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: take care
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: thanks!
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Andrew
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya andrew
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah check that expire first
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I can run expire command for each of my 3 sims?
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that better thna deleting folder when OS shut down
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: if they are sharing the folder.. only on one
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hm ok
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: but again.. you will lose old dyn things userd by others
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: bc the expire can only see assets in use on own region
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see... So it's not a general solutioin
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: there is no general solution
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But in my case I'm the only one making dynamic textures
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can just have them re-draw when they detect sim restart
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Will that blow up my cache
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: can always copy the folder to a backup and to test runs :)
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't know what was deleted in world, don;t know what to test
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would be cool to have something in libomv to set a face as "dynamic" to know if that needs re-requesting right
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its not "broken" so not worrying about it, but I do see my cache folder is pretty big
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Course there is that issue of then storing the creation string
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: well it is not just dyn..
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: it does not delete any asset found in use
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc.. only on that region
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: shared assets folder looks a good idea until this cases
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah, since the dyn stuff are not in inventory, something else might be needed to refresh correctly
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't use them much
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They do end up just re-requesting what's not on cache so if that load is okay then it's just unnecessary writes to disk, which okay, not ideal, but not catastrophic
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are multiple ways to mitigate or fix that, none really ideal though
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There is also a quirk with viewers -- Dyn textures gone from server are still seen by people from their own cache
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So diff people see diff things
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I worry more about uuid collision as rare as that should be
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: they say uuid collision is almost impossible
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc some ppl edit uuids of things..
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( or change computer date :p)
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: on uuid type 4 ??? current time is used in part of th euuid
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: even so collisions should be minimal
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:21 PM] Ubit Umarov: RL calls
[12:21 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:21 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: here too. Have a great week
[12:21 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok see you all next week, if not before :)
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-07-28

2026-07-28T19:19:05Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *smiles ans waves [11:05 AM]..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *smiles ans waves
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins at Cuga and Andrew
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Great to see everyone
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: by the way, the OpenSimulator Community Conference will be the first weekend in December - December 5-6th with dancing and music on the 4th
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: in class, pardon my getting tha tin there real quick
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: This past week i looked at updating the version of Firestorm I'm running but ran in to some issues.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: What happened?
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: why cant it be dancing and music also on 5 and 6th?
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The latest version wants a version of glibc that I don't have. I have been meaning to update the vresion of Linux distro I'm running but I haven't done so yet. I may need to install a new version in to a spare partition as I don't think I have enough free space in root.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: ah yes
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, Don't rush the year. :)
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FS seems to run fine on the new Ubuntu... and a new Debian is due to release later this summer
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: good its almost Xmas
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still getting used to seeing Back To School items at a local store. :P
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Debian 14?
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not sure the name but thats my guess
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably 14. I have some systems running with a distro based on 13.
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It was nice of them to name 13 after my senior cat. :)
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: gosh, I "just" updated to Debian 13 - almost a year ago; scary
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: "he next up and coming release of Debian is Debian 14, codename "Forky""
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well it wasn't a new product a year ago
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Daibian
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It has an old-ish kernel, but super stable
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we like super stable on server
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *gives Canonical the evil eye*
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't say I've ever had issues with the kernel. I have had problems with some of the items that sit on top of it.
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You can still run compiz on Debian lol
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits this week, devs overheated, unplugged them and put them in the wash :)
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :) Hasn't been that warm this past week.
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It was cooling down... and then it didn't
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Tmeperature dropped like a stone. Only 13C this morning :-(
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same, now it's 28 ;_;
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: ?me tries to email some of is 29,8C to Gavin
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's try the fax machine
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll send the jetstream south to you to scoop up some of it
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: shout - I have gotten so used to command+return in Telegram I do that here too :-(
[11:21 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: we;ve had two near-tornados in one week.
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news, someone handed Rider a keyboard again and chaos ensued. New viewer cap to create items inside prims directly being added in a commit about something unrelated. Apparently to create notecards directly in objects
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Publish object inventories to external editor commit
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: why?
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gonna be fun to see what nonsense scripts come out when people start using vscode for that.... and lua :x
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: CreateTaskInventoryItem
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yep
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all kinds of ai creations I can imagine
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have something internal that is similar to that, so hooking that up is not that hard, just cap handler to that
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Notecards in objects makes some sense given how scripts interact, not sure what else that would end up for that you wouldn't need inventory first
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like upload straight to prim inventory... why...
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fail to see how that'd be useful
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Delete prim and contents it goes to inventory anyways
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: something they need to support Unity?
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So AI bot can be grid owner?
[11:28 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: ugh
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't give em ideas
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Agentic avatars
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hurkk
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure how that is different from some actual avatars, haha
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: improvement for some lol
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to say
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did get around to upgrading my postgres test environment and it promptly blew itself up on the actual postgres update. Seems I need to do a manual migration or nuke the db and start fresh, which is probably easier
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you think about the need to ever send viewerstats to opensim servers?
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a handler in there and it does process some of the data, but it doesn't keep that for any time, just during runtime of the region
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So it is being handled to the extend it needs to make the viewer happy, but we do very little with it internally
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if removed there is no loss
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Way I read it it just responds to the requests, so if no request it just doesn't run
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good. it will have to go cpu cycles saved for other woork
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: private static void HandleViewerStats(LLClientView c, Packet Pack) { // TODO: handle this packet //m_log.Warn("[CLIENT]: unhandled ViewerStats packet"); }
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ....
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's as far as I looked, didn't check the whole 50+ lines of the processing if it does anything useful, but considering none of that is stored anywhere
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that's one part of it that is just not doing anything, some other thing does stuff, whole routine too, but yeah stats not being stored means they can't be that important
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is it one of those things shown in Developer menu?
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh we have a cap handler
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It gives some internal feedback via console command, tells you some stuff about the user, which is not really helpful for anything
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: info such as?
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: webstatsmodule does something with it
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: User lagging, which they usually tell you themselves
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so true
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: stores on its own sqlite db
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it?
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeaps
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That part is disabled by default I think, webstats
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that can be queried
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really old code in that too and a mess
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda looks like it's spinning up a whole website with that as well, which is just cringe
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I will just not compile the code, and not send anything. Can be enabled if / when
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More I look at the code the more it looks like brute force method to accomplish some goal that would have been easier to just handle with more appropriate tools
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: LocalUserStatistics.db
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a vague recollection of that site
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: "I wanna do it all in C# and so god help me I will" kinda stuff
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does that always exist there, or is it generated with the webstats site is enabled?
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: module is optional
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the db is also optional then?
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: if enabled it uses/creates that
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Worst case then it doesn't display data if it has none.... if that makes it blow up then... we'll just remove the module >:D /jk
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: private const string SQL_STATS_TABLE_CREATE = @"CREATE TABLE IF NOT EXISTS stats_session_data ( session_id VARCHAR(36) NOT NULL PRIMARY KEY,
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Forced sqlite basically yeah, wouldn't fly today, use main db interface definition or custom one, but as is only supports that
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's old code
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: suppose it could be useful for a grid of some size
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Burden the server with doing more work at larger scale, sounds fun
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the code has not been touched for ages, I suppose it may not even get the data it expects because LL keeps tweaking that code all the time
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not to mention the data collection and processing side of this
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not how I'd build such a thing these days. Collect data, put in proper db following interface and process externally rather than shoehorn into the poor server
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeack one entry per each session
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no cleanup or aggregation? so presumably it just keeps growing
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't be the first of that kind at least.... which doesn't make that any better
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: chances are nobody use it
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There was a mantis about it today
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: really?
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9248
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Maybe for those reports that people can send devs when they report a problem.... just a guess
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's abuse report functionality which is an unhandled cap iirc
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are a few of those
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause they heavily depend on a mixed system since handling them via regions and robust is just really inefficient and prone for spam
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is a region module.. no robust
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i hope )
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most things that depend on externals are external modules themselves since embedding becomes an issue
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If we shipped with a webserver and stuff for that then could do that, but that's just a whole different can of worms that is prone to ten thousand issues
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See wifi
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that mantis sounds like mixed version files on same folder
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: i just did a test run and the db got updated.. so sqlite is working on that
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Comparing last release to master when that's months apart yeah that's going to be a mess
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Depending on gitignore setup it can leave trash behind
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me thanks you for the meeting and dashes
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: you depend on runprebuild.bat(sh) to clean older dlls
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves to Lyr
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: question is does it get the date expected if a viewer send the current record that is meant for SL?
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Lyr
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc it may faul )
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. That last half hour went by fast.
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the data*
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of the code in there was changed last 3500 days ago, so .... maybe
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: it gets some of data viwers show on stats
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It doesn't appear to instantly explode on either end so at least the failsafes seems functional
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right. maybe I should do a test run
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: i seen no error on last test run
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where do you enable it? in OpenSim.ini?
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is per simulator
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: [WebStats] ; View region statistics via a web page ; See http://opensimulator.org/wiki/FAQ#Region_Statistics_on_a_Web_Page ; Use a web browser and type in the "Login URI" + "/SStats/" ; For example- http://127.0.0.1:9000/SStats/ enabled=true
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: there is also a ../VS page
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And a bunch of javascript as well iirc
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Put on some oven mitts when handling I suppose
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll see you guys later... need to RL
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: smiles and poofs
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: well we are past hour..
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's my line. :)
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah it is :)
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to ask.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: What Ubit just said. :)
[12:05 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: no update on docs. been busy dodging tornados
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Twisters? Eek.
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: outch careful with that
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Didn't know you were a fighter pilot heh
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:06 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Parked 4to sit one out. tree came down right behind me.
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: A little too close.
[12:07 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: near-tornados. certainly enough damage. one took a school roof off
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Free lumber
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Once you find out where it landed.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok RL calls
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today we can call this gathering done and dusted.
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: All right guys. I'll hop off here. Might see you next week, but I have visitors so may not make it.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week if not before
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Ubit.
[12:08 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: UPSs have had a workout. think my garage door opener reset itself.
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cheers!
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I better get going.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-07-21

2026-07-21T19:10:26Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Hello Andrew! [11:02..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Hello Andrew!
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You will need to start without me. I got stuck dealing with a work issue. Got that sorted. Now I'm trying to grab a quick bite to eat or else I will be having a very late lunch.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Great to see you, Ubit and Tampa
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There used to be a menu entry in FS to mark an avatar as away but i can't find it. oh, well. bbiab.
[11:04 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Comm -> Online Status
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi all *smiles and waves
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Great to see you, Cuga
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Heya Jagga
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hey Lyr
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin! :D
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Great to see you, Gavin
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hello guys
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ubit your hat reminds me of Weird Al's song Aluminum Foil
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: hehe
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: love the TinFoil man from The Tick
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I loved the Tick
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: yep *Grins*
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: How's your feet?
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm "The rake"
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me winks
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: two series, same creator
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: both great
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: cult classics
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: People say there's a lot of UFO activity around mexico City
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So both hats together makes sense
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Somewhere there are aliens that tell each other horror stories about sentient apes that roam a dirt ball
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and constantly F everything up for themselves
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Dino
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: incoming
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: holds out a cracker
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: well alliens did not add any new bugs to opensim during last week. neither did humans or any other species
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Soooooon
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel with exception of a few changes around dbs code
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: fixing some typos.. cosmetics
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no suntan applied?
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It'll melt off
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wb
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Solving some of those reported things is going to take a bit, because some of it requires architecture changes further up the food chain
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as?
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Plus testing is just time consuming with the different connectors n all
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The user account one for example, big change to functions, retiring some, making new ones
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it possible to outline what you want, or do you want me to have Claude generate a solution that can be reviewed?
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops i didnt had that chat with claude
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: has the offer expired?
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: dunno.. didnt look :(
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The changes in the pipeline so far are meant to address the most critical issues and the various typos. Nothing final yet. If you have it re-evaluate them no need to write code though
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have the link still
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok Vincent
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I rather write fixes based on issue descriptions than eval llm code, it's just easier to keep the overview and the connectors need some deeper architecture changes down the road anyways
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Twice in one meeting
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some functions I really don't like the look of
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://claude.ai/referral/p4WkSwiKnQ?s=claude_design
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Burnt my hand earlier so not gonna write much code this week if I can help it
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ouch. will it be ok?
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The postgres stuff I hope to test at some point to make sure the changes there actually work in all versions. They been changing syntax like sqlite lately
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Pain is an old friend, I'm fine
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:29 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Oh no, sorry to hear of your burn, Vincent
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While I'm in that code anyways might as well fix everything up proper in case some modules use functions that have issues so as anything with old code turns into a bigger task than anticipated
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had fixed some of it in the past, but never really looked at the "working" parts
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will let it evaluate the changes you gave me, and based on that maybe start to develop fixes to outstanding issues one by one for your review
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i did fix some of the simple typos on those reports
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It will take that into account when looking at it again
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect it'll complain about a few things in there still and some fixes are really more bandaids, takes a bit more work to resolve in a way that'd pass scrutiny. Should be less to go through making it a bit easier to keep overview
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Buys Vincent a coffee
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and/or a beer
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well Gavin too
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thx
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a couple a of little macOS announcements, but not really important compared to the cosmetics you are working on
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: please
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: once or twice a year, I run a regression test for checking Opensim compatability across macOS versions
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: using the latest from trunk, latest Dotnet 8, etc
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OS continues to run on all macOS that support Dotnet/64 bit
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 10.15 to the latest
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sound perfect
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: now
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Apple is dropping Intel support in their developer product XCode in macOS 27
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah and Rosetta 2 next year
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: No Roetta
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: zero Intel support
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I plan to Not upgrade on my current machine
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-(
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stay ni 26.x, for other reasons too
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I will be able to continue to build universal binaries
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: At some point, though , we have to ask how far back on Macs we need to support
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Intel Macs are 7+ years old now
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well, 6
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So thats all my mac news
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of very expensive paperweights soon huh
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh they still run macos....
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then end of the line for the Intel Macs I am afraid
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They still work but old OS's
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Like old PCs and mono
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They can still use an old build of pensimulator
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not a disaster if we cut the rope at some point
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean we tested some code for compatibility on a 14 year old MacBook Pro, so it is not that all that base is going away, but pretty much the entire base on Apple Silicon are likely to upgrade to a version that cannot run Opensim or the viewers
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With how memory pricing is using mono these days... great thing about dotnet is the lower memory footprint
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The apple silicon user base is going to be fine
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its working fin ethere
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: only concern for the oldold macs
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am lookin at the feasibility of making the viewer a moder macOS version dumping a lot of LL code
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: modern even
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think they provide the silicon code now from the LL seed
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I thought thats how FS got it
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, but the renderer will not work
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh you use Intel only renderer?
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no rosetta 2, no OpenGL support (except some half assed thing running a handful of games)
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Right no GL
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Our hopes for common code across platforms shattered
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the rest of the code can run as much as it want, but nobody can see it
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When it comes to SL isn't that an improvement though :D
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: LOL
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ciris for the furries
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems apple also increased machines prices bc of ram...
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Watch for $4k laptops on 2027
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in*
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Their runored touchscreen laptop will be $1k more for the screen
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there already are laptops costing $4k or more.
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless the AI bubble burst and there will be firesale of ram and ssd from bankrupt data centers
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: raises his glass at the idea....
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: GPUs too I guess
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are getting sued so maybe that'll go somewhere. Seems they learned nothing from the last price fixing scandal. History repeating itself much faster than normal
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well the GPUs are built into the same chip on Silicon
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly alot more things will be in trouble if the bubble burst
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: a lot of $ there from all areas.. even pensions
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: so we are the ones paying it also
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just work till you drop, no more worries about pensions, it's that simple /s
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a good portion of our sovereign wealth fund is invested in AI :-(
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: findong new creative uses of FS's emojis
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 👰
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Database: *chuckles* I'm in danger
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The ideal pensioner have always been a man working all life till reaching pension age, and then have a heart attack 4 weeks later
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't it be less paperwork to die on the job, then the paramedic could at least finish your shift /s
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ouch
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well I'm feeling lucky then lol
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me grins
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent, Gavin, thanks for the hard work on the project. i need to head out
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Take care, Cuga.
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Guess people are quiet, not seeing people typing :)
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *smiles and waves
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am going to leave too for now, and we'll see next week if I have moved further
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cheers Cuga
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before we wrap things up?
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: quick question
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Gavin
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewerstats that generates stats for LL that just burns cpu cycles in the viewer. will opensim ever sonsume those stats
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: consume*
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: quick question he says lol
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: answer could be no
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess thats more usefull for viewer devs
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, there are quick questions but not always quick answers.
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if it does, we may have it handled, but maybe not processing much of it
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Ubit
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am inclined to rip the code out of the viewer as I don't plan to develop a setup to consume the data
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll have a look at what's in there, maybe I have a better answer to that next week, if not, remind me :)
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a good week everyone
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will bring this gathering to a close.
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-07-14

2026-07-14T19:40:27Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone [11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:02 AM] Vinc..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am not even sure if they have a character limit
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are assets so its all converted to bytes
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can try and paste one of the report into one and we shall find out
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably like integer limit of chars like 2 billion something
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't surprise if the limit is the viewer crashing trying to display it xD
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already got scripts that take a long time to display locking up the viewer cause people leave that preprocessor crap in there
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There is certainly a practical limit. What does the LSL wiki state? I'm sure we handle more than that. The limit may be imposed by how the data is stored in the database.
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It probably is a byte limit of sorts, but it could also be enforced on the viewer end alone. Possibly osmakenotecard would have something to check for that, but then again maybe not since that would hit heap limits probably
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If limits are being hit something is wrong imo, most cases you'd probably be better off doing something different than trying to squeeze it that much
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that I haven't raised heap to fiddle with stuff, but the limits usually exist for a reason
[11:10 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hi. sorry somehow i ended up at 0,0 or something
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Fiona. You found your way back here.
[11:10 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes ty
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The log of OS indicates no new bugs in the past week. ;)
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: Ohh yes.. isn-t that great?
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is indeed.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lazy devs been finding bugs elsewhere xD
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It means fewer things to talk about.
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: did look a bot to the pqsql ai report...
[11:14 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: look at the mysql one first
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: was just telling gavin about on report
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: one..
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: (CreateParameterValue(value, "boolean"/"bit")): does value.ToString() == "true". A C# bool's ToString() is "True"/"False" (capitalized)
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: case sensitivity is so annoying right xD
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: the silly thing missed that boolean is a pqslq bool not c# so its tostring is in fact lower case
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: pfff
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc several things about injection...
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should just do caseinvariant blah on the compare really for when they get funny ideas like sqlite did
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: who cares if those dbs should be closed to humans
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of it is on private port yes, but you know how some are "firewalls too complicated, open all the things"
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: if any human other than owner gets there, then sql injection the the least of problems
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...is..
[11:18 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh yes the tricky nftables
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a problem because some grids have economy, some grids store private information about members and some people wants to be malicious.
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure why I shouted?
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well ill try to read all that and make new worse bugsd
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best not look at wifi code then, the holes are craters lol
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: err new fixes
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do I shout now too?
[11:19 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: drooled on shift key and it stuck
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah.. happens when we dont chat much.. when we do we shout :)
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: (rl also )
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we can pick some candidates and let claude develop patches and see how it does
[11:20 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hopefully claude likes us
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of the things in the reports there are easy fixes, don't waste water on that
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh those things are blind to reality
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sure. Just don't skip reviewing its code before trying out anything it suggests
[11:21 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: what to do when AI hates you
[11:21 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: know all on blogs etc.. not real code
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Might be better of using a lint tool for C# (if there is one). Can't think of one off hand.
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Were these from a Mantis? Who wrote them?
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavin played with his ai
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who wrote what?
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The report... ok I got answer. AI bot
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claude wrote them. Each were a 15-20 min run with Sonnet 5 model
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ahhh ok
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: In perfect world, we would have a test suite to check for each of these exploits and validate code
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what exploits?
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of. I did get a bit further with libgdiplus. The flaw on the font collection being only metadata I could find, but the test still failed. Apparently the fonts need to register functions, which is supposed to be done by the create function as well, but for some reason that's not happening. Adding an explicit function register works and test passes, but obviously it's not supposed to be needed. Escalated it to the harfbuzz folks to get some insight as to whether that's a bug or just misunderstanding. Pending response.
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are just issues that needs cosmetic changes
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok. I meand, vulnerablities
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is no end to probing open http endpoints for things. If you want to do damage you can just overload it good ole script kiddy style
[11:27 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a bunch of NonFinite Avatar position errors and crashed the other day haven't tracked down that problem but it says report to Mantis hehe
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh thats hopeful news about libgdiplus. fingers crossed
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It says that because if it continues to happen it could be an engine bug, but usually it is caused by bad mesh interaction or just overloading the engine with overly complex things
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: People uploading mesh with broken physics etc. or apparently straight up bypassing all sanity checks and dumping raw data in until everything blows up
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I read there may be an order of operations issue and/or that something was only done once but never again that leads to some of the font related tests dying.
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There are about three ways to run the libgdiplus tests. What I found is that the order in which they run is partly responsible for whether the tests succeed or not.
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It could be, but I haven't gotten a clear answer yet, so I don't really know how to proceed from there, especially given the clean code requirement wine has regarding llm code, which I did technically look at for the last part
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I couldn't get that gtest thing to work, I tried compiling it but it failed
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Compiled fine for me.
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So just using the make check and tests from the folder they all pass with the changes. Much like our tests if something isn't cleaned up properly they cannot be re-run on the same thing
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: gcc would give me a compile error on gtest.cpp
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Might be that I missed a config option and don't have all features compiled in and ready for testing.
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: (site is up again )
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think wine also only looks at the make check passing, at least that's all MS ever cared about and even then they were happy to release a broken version to Canonical and others
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So now all upstream libgdiplus is tainted
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Raising my blood pressure again
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll give it another poke when it gets a little colder and then maybe can try and get a fix pushed through
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: "ai can be clever .. "... this one method looks copy-pasted from MySQLAssetData.cs, which legitima..."
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I just looked again. I didn't add --with-pango during my first builds.
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems all ppl do the same c@p mistake :)
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: even c&p
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Attempted commonality between the connectors to make it easier
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Over ten people worked on this over the years some of it is all over the place
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sometimes easier just to rip something out, replace with a working thing and adjust than to try and salvage what's there
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Especially true if the existing thing is poorly written and/or documented.
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sqlite changes are worse cause of the different versions changing major parts of the behavior so you have to be extra cautious to write compatible code
[11:37 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: well somebody has a broken asset server i think, about 18% of assets had an \0 null character at the end of data. so MS XML parser barfs. stripping out the null byte made the assets work again
[11:38 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: not sure where they are coming from but maybe using C and sending an extra character hehe
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should be much less bad stuff floating around after osg deleted most of it
[11:39 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: well removing the null char seems to make the assets good again
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Old aurora stuff is not compatible either and got mixed in with some surviving to this day
[11:39 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes could be some legacy assets in the wild
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some?
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: New bad stuff is not impossible either given the lengths some go to to import broken crap
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A bad alpha breaking baking isn't visible to the user, they don't see the log file blowing up from all the messages
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't feel the network card melt from sending a mesh body of 200+ megabytes from a bad upload including ten copies of the same mesh for no reason
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't test for everything in something this complex. The users will find a way to break it yet still
[11:43 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: hehe yes
[11:44 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: i did a frequency distribution on asset sizes and most are 1-10mb as i recall. not many huge ones but they do exist
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, they will.
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Can let Claude look at the code involved and see what it says?
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can, but it's unlikely to be merged one to one or at all. Becomes a problem of intellectual property
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ai assisted and human reviewed, but best to just let it state what's wrong, cause usually the fixes aren't that hard to implement
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why a problem
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause ai code cannot be copyrighted and thus no license can be applied, the authorship isn't clear
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For the problems in those reports, just from skimming through, they are a couple minutes of work each, so no point in wasting water on ai when someone can just fix them
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: "Intellectual property issues arise because works predominantly generated by AI without meaningful human authorship are not eligible for copyright protection. This means that if Claude generates code, it may not be protected under copyright law, leading to potential legal challenges regarding ownership and use of that code in open-source projects." From news.ycombinator.com
[11:49 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: and if the no fakes act passes will possibly have trouble with our heads in os hehe
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me smiles and nods
[11:50 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: get sued by celebrities for being look-alike
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I just configured and rebuilt the libgdiplus library and tests. tests/gtest usually dies when doing "5 tests from MatrixTests" with the messages -> gtest: fccache.c:795: FcCacheFini: Assertion `fcCacheChains[i] == NULL' failed. Aborted (core dumped)
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The patches are mine if they are developed for me. The only thing it has done a few times is adding a note to the commit it was developed in cooperation with Claude
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, dump me the commands used in discord, I'd like to try that myself and see if I can find the fix for that. I gave you the ones I used for pulling libgdi from wine and build, they seem different from your approach
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to get on the same page there to figure out what's going on or we'll go in circles heh
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The few times I used an AI for coding help I used what was shown to me as a guide. I usually did better than the AI in the final code but it showed me a path to take.
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, will do.
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Claude totally removed all pathfinding, marketplace and experience code from the viewer + we also did a very difficutl revert of code that started in 2018
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We much prefer ai simply stating a problem and possible solution for human evaluation rather than dumping code into a commits or branches that need days to review. There are more considerations to be done in a lot of cases because of how things interact or what the usage environment actually is. It can guess, but unless you critically review it then it becomes Schrödingers code
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: marketplace was a difficult removal as it fanned all over
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The viewer code is a much bigger mess, thankfully os code is usually not that convoluted
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is indeed
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it can remove or rather replace the "Linden Parcel" or whatever in the parcel category in an SL compatible manner I might be impressed, cause that's one big can of worms to open
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this is what it have added to some commits. Co-Authored-By: Claude Sonnet 5 <noreply@anthropic.com>
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not a pip about copyright
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: That is because the copyright is not defensible at this time
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The copyright is with the millions of stackoverflow posts, official docs and whatever else it ingested or is it with the company that set the model up and trained it, or maybe it even is the ai itself, but then what license would it want applied... that's just a whole conundrum to avoid by just not having it author code directly
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Advisory is much simpler as consultants don't get code credit
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also I could just amend the commit and remove the information and nobody would know
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Until someone manages to replicate the code with a prompt to a point even the comments are the same
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: A summary of the problem on who owns Claude-generated code https://aiproductivity.ai/news/who-owns-code-written-by-claude-code/
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: The safest practical position right now: treat AI-generated code as a first draft.
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: The Copyright Office is expected to publish further guidance on AI authorship in 2026.
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: Summary
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: I teach AI research classes at the doctoral level
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good thing I am no Norway so US copyright law does not apply here
[12:00 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: well the other thing is no safe harbor unless you are registered with the copyright office
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is a current hot topic and a problem so most want to avoid having to either take a stance or to have code in their projects they may have to rip out later. I mean what do you do if the fix is a single capital letter, but ai found it and now all ai code has to be removed. Can you then no longer fix this typo, because it would be under the ai copyright
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Do you then change it to a slower function just so the code is different. What if it compiles to the same code after optimization, does that count?
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This goes so far if you start spinning that it just ends up taking up a lot of time to consider
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: for idea generation and personal development, it is a great aide. For final code generation, uncertain
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not to mention the whole bias of prompt fulfillment over adhering to code standards or sum such. Like I recall asking it for a solution and it kept going at it by brute force when really it was just easier to rewrite the whole thing proper
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It, much like a human, may or may not get the bigger picture correctly
[12:02 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: it maybe doesn't apply but what _can_ happen is you get sued in the US and lose by default and probably won;t lose assets but they can do stuff with visa/american express/master card and paypal possibly making it hard to collect money from customers
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck getting the bigger picture correctly on the viewer code :-))
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Going at it critical trying to find flaws much like you would a junior dev might be the best approach you can currently take, cause you cannot know if it didn't just read the stackoverflow question instead of the answer
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least claude is less braindead than gpt, but not by much. Just enough to not be annoying
[12:04 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: anyway i need to run take care everyone
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: bye Fiona
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: have a great week
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out as well, have a great week
[12:04 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.zetaworlds.com: thank you too
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even so with the instructions it has to not deal with security topics and reject any attempt to dig into those when it does come back with recommendations for that it gets muddy
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: waves and poofs
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me waves
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They went pretty hard on the side of not letting it deal with cybersecurity fearing it might expose something or aid hackers
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: you are pioneering it for the viewer, Gavin, and we are glad to hear of your discoveries
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In any case you have a bunch of findings. You can write the fix yourself, or we can generate fixes for review as a starting point
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When I'm not melting I will take a look
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: It is very hot here too
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of the stuff from skimming through is easy to fix
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: D*mn hot here too
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It has been very helpful Lyr till now, but we have not really generated new functionality for now. Removed and fixed existing. I plan to use it to generate a lot of Mac specific code. Will see how far we get
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: yes
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: that's great, let us know how it goes
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure will
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: exploring newer territory is important
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: /me waves and grins
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyartshub.com:8002: I must dash, take care
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Especially with more and more viewer code from LL seemingly exploring the depths of human stupidity lol
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be interesting to have it generate an admin frontend for opensim, and also look at search functionality
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Someone has been writing one for a while
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who is someone
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It looks promising albeit a bit basic still
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll send you a link
[12:10 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Search actually has major code flaws on both server and region side
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Tampa, I sent you the information you requested via Discord.
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The heat kinda killed the effort getting that fixed, cause my brain cannot process that much stupid at once
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as I havge said before I really cannot see why pretty much all search can be canned in the db for easy access, but that is just me
[12:11 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: postgres has more functionality to support it
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The flaws exist with the way the data is queried from regions. Then there are bugs in parsing on the server end and some fairly idiot concepts used to store it. Also some cross references that aren't done because it attempts to be self-contained which just causes further problems
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I will have to take another look at the search module some day. It worked the last time I used. Would be nice to have an enhanced version that can search across multiple categories of things at one time.
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is still a conceptual issue even in the fixed version given the way data is retained when the source becomes unavailable
[12:13 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where is the code Andrew?
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: In my case it would be the add on OpenSimSearch module in gitlab.
[12:14 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: link?
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problem is making changes on os side to fix this means the server end needs to pull along with it and that's harder to accomplish
[12:15 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have started the rewrite for that, but it's a lot of stuff to get done
[12:15 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Whole xmlrpc handling and managing databases
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I'm looking
[12:15 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could probably have claude rewrite the ci version into plain php, but they don't give enough tokens for the free users to do something that complex
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Firestorm is causing a high CPU load today and Firefox does the same when it is running. The two combined make it slow to look something up in Firefox. :P
[12:17 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have $20 per month plan and it has not been anywhere close to consume the limits yet
[12:18 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll take you up on that when I get around to it, when it gets colder. Need brain function to make sense of it :)
[12:18 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when it analyzed MySQL it generated 340k tokens
[12:22 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, gitlab wants to send me a code so I can complete the log in. I need to start my email program to get the code. I now have more load on my system while I wait for it to download 227 email messages. (been a few days since I picked up mail on my desktop).
[12:22 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't worry right now Andrew
[12:24 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, https://gitlab.com/kcozens/OpenSimSearch.git
[12:24 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: brilliant! bookmarked
[12:25 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have some other OpenSim modules there too.
[12:25 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll check it out Andrew.
[12:25 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll have to leave for now. See you next week I suppose
[12:25 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Your profile is private, they can't see other projects
[12:26 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cheers
[12:26 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Search really just needs fixes in the module and support in os base to function correctly. Then just ship the server code as a zip. At least that's the plan I have for it for now
[12:26 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't think the projects were private.
[12:27 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't, but the list is. Only direct links to them are visible
[12:27 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to look at that some other time. Don't know why gitlab did that.
[12:28 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the meeting done for another week with several people already having departed.
[12:29 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get back to some RL work. See you again next week.
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