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Chat log from the meeting on 2026-03-31

2026-03-31T19:11:11Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite a few commit..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite a few commits this week, mostly webrtc stuff
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: a few,, and mostly about webrtc yes
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No lazy devs this week :)
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sleepy devs today lol
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I played with webrtc this week. It's nice that OS and Janus can both be set up and work on locahost , although you can only talk to yourself.
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Also nice that you can switch between webrtc and Vivox with just configs
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Unfortunate that ot only works properly on latest FS beta
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That will be less of an issue in future
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I looked into what further steps need to happen now that we got it connecting relatively well. On the janus end it's likely that it will need a whole port of the audiobridge to support the necessary audio processing to do spatial audio. Meaning copy the existing one and extend it, cause editing the original is just going to cause too much burden to maintain
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A library needs to be found to do the dsp stuff, though it would probably be best to just start with position based volume processing to actually get the positioning tested and functional
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: A while ago MrBlue said somebody was working on a spacial add-on, or something.
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There was omebody but I don't know details
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reading the protocol docs I really do wonder what they were smoking when they added this, like why the fuck does it need to know the detailed direction someone is looking at, that's asmr level accuracy
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Someone did post something to mantis showing changes to janus, but directly to its code, which then means every update we'd have to merge that back in and maintain a whole fork of janus
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Better would be a plugin that provides audiobridge + extension
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Less code to maintain and less likely to explode when janus updates
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news I got the profile feed thing, web_profile_url part of login response working, but the viewer currently isn't handling that as gracefully as it could
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It sends the avatar name as lower case, which causes problems if there are more than one avatar with the same name, just case differences
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also no hypergrid support yet, because of how it internally fetches the url via the login response, so any hg visit means a new url or none is given for profiles
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No call back to the origin grid on remote profiles, that needs handling and ideally, at least for OpenSim it would send uuid instead of the name
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: left right is relative to current orientation
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been talking to FS about this, not sure what solution gonna look like
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. heading is needed
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: a pain is camera versus avatar and listen position not same as speaker.
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have also been working on search and now completely rebuilt the ossearch addon, datasnapshot handler and the server side that supports those parts
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing proper validation, decluttering the parcel data, fixing various parser bugs and building web search from scratch
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I propose that once I have some new self-contained webroot for it that ossearch be merged into core along with all the other changes so it's a unified system
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll try to keep the web part as light on dependencies as possible
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: alos that linden did not know we only need to transmit 3 values on a quaternion
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ince be def it must be normalized
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: lludp does send only x,y,z
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: they could also only sen a lookat vector
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff
[11:32 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: .me smiles
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Currently there is no real point in adding the feed into profiles as there is no real feed that could be displayed there. I wanted to put the old interests information back into that, but it seems like the way that's handled by viewers isn't consistent as the values I found in the database don't match the ones set by viewers that still have that code in them. Not sure what's going on there.
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A bunch of the entries are set to 1024 which as bitmask would imply more than the 8 actual interest checkboxes and I have values going as high as 1279. Meanwhile cool vl only sets up to 255 for those and 63 for the skills mask, which seems correct given the number of bits on that
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if that's just bad handling or what's going on, but it creates a bit of a mess trying to read that out
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from the case sensitivity issue technically the server end could handle remote requests as it receives any remote request as firstname.lastname.@homeuri so based on that it is possible to ask grid info service for a web profile url and fetch feed information from that
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That means that every grid would need to support this though rather than the viewer doing that lookup
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting ossearch and datasnapshot changes into core would break current webroot part, because I actually hooked up the code that is meant to validate requests, which is not done currently, meaning we have a potential for data leaking. Well data meant to be indexed anyways, but there is no check that a request for said data comes from authorized endpoints
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Whole secret system in there, never hooked up for some reason
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suppose could use the feed tab to display any events entered by that user, that would be one use case I guess
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would be nice to get that sorted out and working. Seems to make sense for the results to be grid specific. But like you said, each grid would have to do the setup work
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think that mekes sense, will need saetup guidelines
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The viewer already knows how to fetch profiles over hypergrid so it might not be that difficult to have it handle the web_profile_url as well
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea who does use that feeds thing
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: not a priority for me now...
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Seems not a priority fearure
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It could display updates like newly added picks, classifieds, events or account changes like new profile pictures or whatever one might want to do with it, link it up to twitter or whatever. Point is more on the search stuff, the feed is just mostly whatever you want it to be as it's purely a website that it loads
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: and yes.. normal fs has a issue with definition of stun servers. I made regions send a list, and FS and cool vl now use it
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc on last betas
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm happy that FS added the stun servers, but the whole stun server thing seems like a clugge. The server should be able to announce its voice option in caps
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does that
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But FS doesn't switch to webrtc without the stn thing
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers seem to ne kinda blind on that
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see so its kinda a viewer issue
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: but regions do send voice type on simulator features ( a sl spec )
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: fs does a mess even at sl
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: seem it decide to use vivox on a webrtc region
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: even telling the webrtc voice server on about
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes you are a pretty boy, dino
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( hmm or it is a girl??)
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: (how can you tell?)
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ask kayaker?
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh long time we dont see him also, hope all ok
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: he was traveling last we chatted
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it has been some time since I've heard anything about Kayaker.
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today as we are just about at the top of the hour?
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I wrote him before OSCC (prior to December 2025, and he was traveling and touring several wonderful countries and locations
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week..
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sleepy day today
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm going to head out. Have a great weeke !
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Cuga.
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to head out. Have some work I need to get back to.
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Chat log from the meeting on 2026-03-24

2026-03-24T19:18:51Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello, Andrew! [11:..."

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[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello, Andrew!
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: our last week to meet before Europe moves forward an hour
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: see eu is great.. can move time
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: WE greeted Spring for you...early
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There were a number of commits this past week.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me eyes the button
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fun changes to webrtc still
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah a few changes
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: i have it working on my test grid, either cong on a region as if standalone ( region talks directly to janus) or via grid
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: parcels crossing a bit more resilient also
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: but seems grid kind of config seems to fail badly to vicent
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: still not clear why
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did a test earlier moving entire blocks of code around to force load some stuff, but still no dice
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: note that only parcels voice kinda works and only one janus gateway... other options are jsut broken
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's almost as dysfunctional as Win11 has been lately xD
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is some architectural annoyances in the module design that bug the hell out of me, it's not how most things are designed. To put both the service and module code into one is a nightmare to debug
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great re-use of code, annoying to figure out bugs with
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tempted to split those things into proper parts and only load the things actually required with each type of setup to be able to debug what's going on
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gonna become more important down the line as more features get implemented and the complexity goes up
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: fs beta does include the fix for stun servers, guess cool vl also
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ reported changes to world map are coming to load more regions at once. Had a look at server side and tested a viewer with that change. Appears to be working fine. Internal anti-spam measures seem to only trigger past 150 requests while the change will do 64 at a time
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suppose the idea is to load the world map a bit faster
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: fs loves to flood servers
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure why, never seen it load slow even with thousands of tiles to load
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It seems the memory increase from the http changes has somewhat dissipated somehow. Did some restarts today and the usage level is back to the usual amount. Though that possibly could be dotnet updates as well... if Microslop actually wrote some good code for a change
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I looked at the libgdiplus bug report again and it appears Canonical has re-assigned the maintainer for it to another team, but still no fix in sight and for the latest 26 version they are still building the broken version
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is something bugged in pango and the way libgdi talks to it that causes pango to report font metadata, but no actual object when you request the font glyphs or something
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying to debug pango though... pain and a half
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: May have to build libgdi exclusively with cairo, which works, but is said to be less accurate, whatever that means
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thankfully this only manifests in system fonts of specific types not rendering while the standard fonts shipped with it are fine
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did add some instructions to the wiki on how to get the good version of it and the dependency required directly rather than relying on the distro to provide broken versions
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: on the http i did went back to that avoidas allocation of large buffers, adding timeouts in a dif way
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: for webrtc ( possible others) i added option to set the size of the temporay buffer, like 1MB on one point
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: doens form ms 2GB and my default limit of 256MB
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: down...
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Memory doesn't grow on trees after all
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last commit fixed a problem with texture entry encoding after the json changes. Pain trying to find the interactions on that
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Knock on wood that's the only thing
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( was more on BP materilas encoding )
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: materials even
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Any developments on that code to reduce DB writes?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of that is in core. The only things I got left on top of that are the routine changes for primitems, because really that needs a more direct api
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing a read and compare is kind of a bandaid rather than a fix
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The bug with the linking being desynced is also still open, haven't had much time digging into that and it's a brain teaser for sure
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah the primitems and linking/delinking is a brain exploder
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Has been oddly inconsistent even though it should be fairly reproducible, not sure what's going on with the async tasks run there. Looking at the db patch there are a few more things in the sop that I put some additional checks in that might need merging to core at some point
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A direct delete prim item would be useful in order to not have to read it all and compare just to remove a single item. I need to write that in there at some point
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But other db optimizations have been pushed to trunk. glad to hear
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite a few things on detecting inventory changes and sop changes are in already yes, which should reduce writes a little bit already
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With all the automatic stuff dotnet does in the background is kinda surprising it even triggers a set var to same value as a change, but then again I have learned not to trust it as far as I can throw it and my computer is pretty heavy xD
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure that's what they meant with zero trust xD
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a strange thing happen a couple days ago. After simulator reboot items were missing, but only specific ones containing a script and animation. Either this was just bad shift copy or some other bug being masked by cache. Hasn't happened since thankfully
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Shift copy can fail on packet loss, but not at this scale I don't think
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Data was still on scene as the oars still had everything so must be something on db end
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I attract the weirdest bugs I swear
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: why me ;_;
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: mb you should get some phosphor piles to your cpus
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It keeps things interesting
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well or ram
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already sacrificed a goat... oh you mean as in hardware xD
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: No No No you will not sacrify our Dino!
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Which distro you using?
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or are you talkin Win
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This happened on ubuntu
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hard to prove the distros make a difference, but I've had nothing but trouble with Ubuntu, a recent update clobbered and killed the EFI partition. I switched to Debian 13
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Way Canonical is currently messing things up switching is definitely on my mind
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok ppl RL calls
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting. I must dash, first day back to classes. *waves*
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. tc. Thanks for dropping in.
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm interested in any work on libgdi as it affects another project I'm using.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok see you all next week if not before :)
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm going to convert from standalone to grid this week, and major gotchas I should know about? I think I know what to do on the config end.
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: any* major gotchas
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hope the upcoming time change in EU won't cause any problems for anyone.
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you have been using mysql db then probably not, perhaps some table name case might trip up, but usually that should work seamlessly. Last time I did that was years go though. Backup first and then work on a copy if you want to be sure
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Good tip thanks
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew I'll keep you updated on libgdi via discord if I hear anything from Canonical or winehq
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I somewhat doubt either is going to fix it though
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ok. ty
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't been able to figure out how to get a usable backtrace when a program using libgdi dies. Makes it hard to pin down where in libgdi a problem exists.
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a problem in pango perhaps. It seems all the calls for "what is font called" and such return fine, but actually get the "font" object so to speak returns null
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect pango does actually have the font loaded, but whatever provides data to outbound isn't converting it correctly or something along those lines
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The suspect commit in libgdi was a change to pango min version loading newer versions now which leads me to think that it must be pango changes, but digging into that history is pain
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems reasonable. There was also a known bug in one of the routines regarding a cursor related function where the function is passed an invalid value.
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would be an option to bug the pango maintainers to have a look at the test that is failing for libgdi
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe they know something
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there a way to build libgdi such that it keeps its symbol table that would be useful for debugging?
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably, not sure how. I don't do much C work
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably compile flag or mode or something
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I read something that said that msbuild now strips symbol info by default.
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something with configure autobuild or even cmake perhaps, I mostly followed libgdi compile instructions as written which I guess should compile in debug
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If not then it must be some flag or option to pass to get it to
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I did the same but it still didn't seem to help .
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C is a bit different when it comes to debugging so no idea, been too long that I really messed with that, might not have enough things to really debug at all
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C is odd
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Part of the problem is that it is a library rather than something in the main program.
[12:15 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might be best just to write a small test case and file it as bug report, might attract someone going "well actually you are doing it wrong" in best case heh
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, but I don't know the library that well or what it is that is triggering the problem so writing a test case would be a shot in the dark.
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't fix everything, sometimes gotta hand it off and have someone else wreck their brain over it
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: True.
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gotta get back to work. ttyl
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Chat log from the meeting on 2026-03-17

2026-03-23T06:50:26Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. A late lunch today delayed my arrival. [11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.open..."

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[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. A late lunch today delayed my arrival.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see everyone
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of commits since last week, busy devs
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Very true!
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: Zzzz ZZzz Zzzz
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: well most those commits where on webrtc
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: we had a patch with come usefull things, so i tried to merge it line by line
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: a patch on mantis
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Multiple even
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: then trying to make things work... with still minor sucess
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: and for now target is ONLY non spacial parcels voice
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting the parcel crossing to work
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: the code seems still plagued by improper tasks based parelelism
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: possible still race conditions and bad shared data sync
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: or all of the above
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc no volume control or information
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: because are not part of stock janus demo code
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: but on ll specific private fork
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And to reiterate, it's part of core now, so forking Robert's module isn't going to help much, git clone opensim and work against that please, cause applying changes by hand is really time consuming
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me nods
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: well most opensim devs did just refuse to look to patchs unless they did merge nicelly
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We tend to try a bit harder than that, but it's mind breaking work at times
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: but clear ppl spent many hours on that.. that should not be wasted :(
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: laso made some changes to our libopenmetave OSD
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: adding long as supported type
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There was also a fix for the httpclient stuff again, hopefully now working a little better
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: like many things OSD as made only to support LLSD
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: so long on it was converted to a binary array
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm getting a bunch of warnings when compiling OS now. Still runs fine. Should I be concerned?
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 6?
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: now it should be stored as long and only sent. received as binary array by LLSD serializers
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Those are just fluff
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: k
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: json does handle it a long
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well as json INTEGER
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly that is very undefined thing
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: in some implementations that is at most 53 bits of data
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but seems that on the lib we use and the one janus uses, it is a 64bit int
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: it the machine does support C type lono long
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: lovely specs
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: universal data formats, machine dependent...
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: that wonderful thing done even witout help of AI.. imagine how it will be
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS put in the handling for stun servers sent by region, thanks TJ
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah it os on master get repo
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but still no new beta
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Version number got bumped so might been soon
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: well yesterday there was no new beta :)
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is now
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: so webrtc is working if you stay still :p
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or set the parcel not to restrict it
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: as you cross to parcels with restricted voice things tart to break
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: our great code starts to close channels after creating them blablabla
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: lets make everything paralell Oh Yeahhh
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok sorry :p
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: anywy fear stil a lot of work just to acheive the limited goals i told
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of code cleanup
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Misterblue
[11:30 AM] Misterblue Waves: hello all... a bit late
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of cleanup, still have to go through datasnapshot parts, but the search side is now mostly cleaned up
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is unrelated to voice :)
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting mixed information from viewers on status of search, fixes going in while I was told it was legacy
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's all a bit clunky
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did an experiment today, actually still running, pushing iars and oars onto owned threads, it's as colorful as you imagine it to be
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's really funny, iars need scene, but oars don't xD
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: should be opposite
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Right, but nope
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah like oars do not same scenes
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: clean those glasses ;)
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...do not save...
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: how is your viewer Joe ?
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: holds out cracker
[11:37 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks like our friendly neighbourhood t-rex just took out Cuga and Vincent.
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Polly wants a cracker
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Love it
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you, Joe
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and Misterblue *grins*
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: (trex whats to have hair like vincent.Sylvester)
[11:39 AM] Joe Magarac: Hello all. Still working on that impostor thing. Wrangling large numbers of assets on the SL side s a huge pain. That's it for this week.
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc he/she did not look to Gavin.. )
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't seen him in a while
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: see. lots of fun Joe :)
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel this new Hour does not help to be here
[11:42 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: time zone shifts
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: still another meeting bc time sync
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: bf
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: well "time sync"
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, is EU not switched yet?
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: 'daytime savings??? sync'
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: End of month
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: we always change on last sundays
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: of march or oct
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There is usually a difference of two weeks between north american and EU time changing.
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: not when trump thinks it is time
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: need to end the daylight savings nonsense
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: or at least change at the same damn day
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yep
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I take small victories
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: actuall, on same day means all keep changing in a period of 24 hours
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: a full day of anachy :)
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Better than three weeks of trying to eat like a goose or pelican
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw ll also uses a modied webrtc library, viewer side
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ll does not use webrtc.. they use their own thing just based on webrtc
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeach
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is public
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: intead of doing a full fork of google code and add changes to it, they clopne it, then apply patch files
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun suicidal approach
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: and of they can pay github builder time to apply all that per build
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatever.. their thing
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess they had good reasons... coff coff
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That hour went by fast today.
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out.... thanks for the continuing webrtc dev work
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Have a great weeke everyone (smiles and poofs)
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Cuga
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ..............
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: .
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( oops that was pixie )
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is another further I wish everyone a good rest of the week. Thank you for being here. see you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-03-10

2026-03-10T19:04:15Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi all [11:04 AM] Andrew Hel..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi all
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Glad to see that the time change didn't throw anyone off.
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Still ongoing talks whether to stop the twice yearly changes.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It'd be a start to just sync the damn date for now, a minor victory
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes.
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a quiet week. Only one change this past week.
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Small change potentially big impact on memory though
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah planing to try another way
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: big impact good or bad?
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: damm dotnet "details"
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: well thing is more or less like this
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: by default http read allocates a buffer large enough to get all possible data
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: then it does copy the receivec amout of data to another array, and returns that
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: the temporaty ont stays unteil GC sees it is not needed
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..one... until...
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: by default that tmp array is 2GBytes
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: :o
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: great with several open requests...
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: for that default i did limit that to 256MB
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: still big..
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ms seen that.. then added a option to only read http headers, then giveing the stream for other use
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: things like xml decode can read from that stream in packs of like 16Kb
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: so only basic tcp buffers are allocated.. not that big 'fit all'one
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: i had change to that some time ago...
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: now turns out that contrary to expected... there is NO timeout on that stream
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: somewhere on the crap changes to async ( used even on sync calls) ms killed the NetworkStream timeout
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: "No need for a timeout, heat death of the universe will catch it" - Microslop
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: so we got one case where a server never did send data... blocking a thread for ever...
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: grrrr
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: that server does send a header telling it has a body of data to send.. and then.. never sends it
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway code does need to timeout there somehow
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: just tehre is no good way of doing it
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and waves
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( by the wway that stuck thing was a HG profile picture asset fecth happening at lbsa every few days only )
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Spin each request into its own thread and then just crash it forcing an out of index error, surely that is up to ms standards /s
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: well stupid workaround is to add a timer to kill the stream
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: will try that
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: timer hiddne inside a cancelToken
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact those streams have a option to have a cancel token like that..
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did add some code doing that
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: turns out they ignore that timeout also
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I could never get those things to work properly on warp3d either, once it is stuck outside of the checkpoints no amount of invalidating the token would do anything
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: so like a few did i will try to make that timout expire close the stream
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: so a waste of memory, another timer.. etc
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but even less that a 256MB buffger
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah in fact cancelation tokens are not mandatory
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: code needs to actively check them
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They behave like white(run) or if (cancel) break; it seems
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: for that we jsut use a simple bool in many places.. like m_running
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: not need for stupid tokens that also need a creationtoken crap
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: well microslop things
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thx, lost network for a moment
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Moment something depends on externally loaded things all bets are off anyways, because that stuff can get stuck in ways you cannot get out of
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh found it on your pocket?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( nm silly local joke )
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sometimes even thread.abort would not work on that, but at least it worked most times
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dropped it on the floor
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well thread abort is gone
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sadly
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wasn't perfect, but it worked
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ms just hates things that work lately
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: remember how ppl used to keep a pencil on a ear?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: while working..
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Only in old movies and TV programs
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i did that also
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: then,,, spent minutes looking for the pencil all around :)
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: after a little time you dont feel the pencil there.. :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: A similar thing happens to people who put glasses on their heads then wonder where there glasses went.
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ms has the same problems with their crayons stuck up their nose and bum it seems
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: was abotu to say that also :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean the glasses thing )
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of nonsensical things. I spent some hours debugging search module and server side
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apparently the "show on map" buttons cause the viewer to send a map item request, which contains basically no data
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So it just returns the first 100 results with no search terms
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Effectively useless data that has no bearing on what they are doing
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: think we do handle that on core
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well or something :)
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can't even see if the viewer really uses that for anything, it works through the response, but the data may not even be for the region it is looking at or is on
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It makes no sense
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it is a bit twisted things
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rest of the module is cleaned up as best as I could make it
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewer does send a flag with what it wants
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: err a bitfield
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which contains the request type and maturity, not much else
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It can send a regionhandle, but doesn't
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh a bit more
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we do handle that on core
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: for viewer map
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i think )
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of the incoming yes, it's what the module ultimately hooks into
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: no ida why module hooks on that
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The classified situation is weird. Found there is no struct for the reply data and the implementations have parameters for all the individual parts of the request
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the other stuff just sticks that into a struct and pushes that along
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I changed that to the datablock of the packet, but that requires core changes to function as the interface needs changing
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh we do have a map search module
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i did mess it a lot .. lol
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to pull that particular change out there and maybe make a proper struct for it
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: to start the names bs
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Server side some query optimizing, switching to single parcel table and so on is making decent progress
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It could technically all sit inside core as well. The server side isn't that complex and in a way it's simpler and less prone to errors to handle xmlrpc in c# than php
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: case (int)GridItemType.Telehub: // Service 1 (MAP_ITEM_TELEHUB)
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: case (int)GridItemType.AdultLandForSale: case (int)GridItemType.LandForSale:
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah things like that
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: closing the source.. i do not want to look to that now >p
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I looked at the mapitem request itself, it only handles 4 instances, which all contain no more flags than the ones it needs to figure out the request type and maturity
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Returning nothing on there doesn't seem to break anything from what I can tell
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: case (uint)GridItemType.PgEvent: case (uint)GridItemType.MatureEvent: case (uint)GridItemType.AdultEvent: case (uint)GridItemType.Classified: case (uint)GridItemType.Popular: // TODO // just dont not cry about them break;
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tempted to just do that rather than do actual queries
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: coff coff coff
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have yet to test pagination, suspect that's buggered in some way as well as it's not consistent as to whether it wants 100 or 101 entries
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something to do with enabling the buttons in the viewer from what I can tell
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The data collector isn't really scalable either with the fixed amount and times it checks. Should really do this some other way or scale the numbers with how much stuff there is
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It still parses the objects as well, even though I cannot find how it would search for them
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I looked at some of those things when I worked on a couple of add-on modules.
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't think object search exists anymore
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Opening the world map also sends a parcel request out, without any information so it just fetches the first 100 results, whichever they may be
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can only assume why it does that
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile we got a patch to try to improve webrtc
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: but sadly seems based on older core code, bc several of the things it has i already did :(
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I finally got that working on a region earlier
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: we got on mantis i mean
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: 9235
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does it have anythign new that is useful?
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess so but would need to look line by line
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: i only seen it today
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems work made in parallel to what i did :(
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: but does seem to address issue we do have
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: as is, it is pretty bad
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: almost no resilence to lag etc
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Great.. looking forward to the updates
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: loses track of sessions/rooms/participants
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: saddly some of that may need the datachannel
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't know how it can be done without
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: fear viewers may just leave rooms telling only to janus via that datachannel
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are near the top of the hour. If someone has a topic they want to raise before we wrap up, raise your hand.
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Not seeing any hands (or messages saying someone raised their hand).
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: raise hands with dino around??? no way!
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hold out a cracker
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh we lsot dino ?
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I saw him
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's over there
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh ok
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go... Thanks for the updates
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga. Thanks for dropping by.
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: /me smiles, waves and poofs
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I nuked a couple ten thousand notecards the other day, courtesy of a script by IMA
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Accounting for 500mb of data
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch.
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been running some metadata on assets
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying to find ways to compress it more
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Deduplication apparently only saved me 16% of space
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: mv ... /dev/null is not compression!!
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I looked at lrz vs gz and found 1% improvement
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :D
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really worth recompressing everything
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: there that xy thing??
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: assuming they did close the open door
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: possible has no maintainer now ?
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You mean xz?
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that's fixed in most... most cases
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: or that :)
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well possible that at least one very important machine is still vulnerable...
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and nods
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway part of that issue was that it had only on mantainer
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: close to burnout..
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: if not well past burnout
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A situation that surely is unique and does not apply to any other project
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ohh yeah... ofc not
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway... rl calls
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting!
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Have a great week!
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I should back to RL too. Another project due on a short deadline.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you, Andrew
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-03-03

2026-03-03T20:06:51Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. Here we are again on a Tuesday. [11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.ze..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. Here we are again on a Tuesday.
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Devs been busy bees last week
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, I sent you some notes on ossearch as well, fixed a few more bugs in my version, the region module is next :)
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: outch... last time i did hear that things did not end well for the bees
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, thanks. Been busy on work stuff and some other projects. I'll get to the add-on modules again eventually.
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr seems happy with that twirling she just did.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm we will send you theplanks repair lyr.Lobo
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: a/me grins and waves
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Focus on the libgdiplus/pango bug, that's more important and you know more C than me
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been wanting to fix some of the issues with libgdiplus for ages but when a program crashes due to a bug in that library I have never been able to get any useful backtrace information to help pin down the location of the crash.
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( well at least thei are rolling skates.. not ice blade ones )
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. abotu last week code changes..
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: there where some.. thanks
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: well on user profiles
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did add a extra queue and processing thread for HG profile requests
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: tehy are typically slow.. so less impact on local grid ones
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: also spotted a dam issue with dotnet http things
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: on receive the body reception has no timeout
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: unless we tell it to get everything before processing
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: something it does ussim like a 2GB buffer per request ( that we did reduice to 250MB)
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. that was apperently working with no issues, excep that profiles did stuck after running a few days in lbsa
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: i managed to find that the poor thing was stuck wating for a profile image, server never sent
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: well wasted more resources adding timeouts to that
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't call that a waste
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it is.. memory cpu.. and a blind kill of a connecting if it expires
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: dont- like the changes dotnet made to http
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: think older code was better
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On mono this was an even bigger issue locking up regions just on single users with enough dead friends
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. no stucked thread in lbsa in several days.. lets see
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: also added a simple comand profiles status
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't wait forever for replies, otherwise you have an easy vector to lock it up
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: that jsut shows how many requests are in queues
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: that timeout was supposed to be there
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: profiles status Profile requests in 'Lbsa Plaza' Local: 0 HG: 0
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: but no...
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is there log of when it calls timeout? Would be good to know which endpoints have stopped responding
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: adn it ia crap blind timeout
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: they add a timer that jsut hard closes the stream if expires
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: but thread.abort was bad design... right xD
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: not a proper tcp timout control..
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Microslop heh
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel does not directly kills the thread
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: jsut closes the stream, so things waiting on get hard errro
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway... fun how it seems to work fine until this profiles issue
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: seemed
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have had something similar a couple months ago. It got into a loop re-requesting profile data from an endpoint, because it got a response, but no data, so it just kept trying and trying
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't been able to reproduce how it did that, it should not loop like that
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if it has internal safeguard against infinite redirects
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Browsers do, they tell you "site not redirecting properly"
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: didnt look much to webrtc this last week
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still waiting on the stun server thing in viewers as well, another roadblock
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh did add a list of stun survers to be used
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: a comma sep list sent on simulator features cap
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is for viewers joe :)
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi, back, my chat wasn't coming through
[11:28 AM] Joe Magarac: Ah.
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: 'stun-servers':'stun:stun.l.google.com:19302,stun:stun.cloudflare.com:3478'
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: wb
[11:28 AM] Joe Magarac: Document it somewhere findable, please.
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: jsut did
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: LOL
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There was some work on webrtc after last weeks meeting. is that work done to the point its ready to test?
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: No, a message is not documentation.
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I know its not finished, but any more changes being worked on?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: just told that regions will not send a list of stun servers to use
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: jsut told joe about it...
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: did file a fs jira and told henry from cool vl
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm also made some changes removing the sue of asyn/away on region code
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: and reducing a bit on test
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..the use..
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is another very broken dotnet thing all seem to love
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: and there is basicly no away to use it correctly on a older project
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: since is is viral thing.. all code paths back from main need to be async
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: or nasty things like even deadlocks may happen..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: microslot at its beast, as usual
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: err and microslop
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm guess that is all since last meeting
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: webrtc has some changes since last meeting but only a day or 2 after, seems like long ago..
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is that ready to test or more changes coming?
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well hope lots of changes.. it does nto really work as is
[11:38 AM] Misterblue Waves: it kinda works -- just voice but no spatial sound
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have not been able to get it to work, built some new binaries yesterday to try again
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I know it's not finished, but is it at a stable point for testing now?
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: without spacial
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: as is it looses track of users etc
[11:39 AM] Joe Magarac: A brief note on my infinite draw distance system. Here's what it looks like on SL. https://video.hardlimit.com/w/95FyuocHfGeUCKmy2rGLdw
[11:39 AM] Misterblue Waves: start testing and tell us what you find
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: (Some of you have seen this.)
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc the channeldata also has joins and leaves regions don-t see
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: you should improve that avatar.. a box is 2 simple joe
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There was an issue that seemed only to be on standalones, where webrtc tries to look for a null (zero) UUID session and throws console errors. Do you know if that has been addressed?
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah that needs fix, with improvements on participants accounting
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: participants and sessions
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok, thanks. I'll wait for testing on my standalone then
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you can arrive sit chat and leave :)
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: that kinda works specially if you are alone
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: coff coff coff :)
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: I know, but I need months for that.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: And this year I have to switch from Rend3 to Renderling.
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: but nice the far things
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw you have webrtc on yr viewer?
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm using the latest FS
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops i mean joe
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: No audio at all yet. Currently I'm focusing on things other viewers don't do as proofs of concept.
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok :)
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: But WebRTC is planned. I wanted to totally avoid Vivox.
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess you could not even use it now
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: last time i saw they only did ship vovox 5
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: vivox..
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: not to mention the unity licensing things...
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure you could use the ll SLvoice thing
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb you could.. and consider that external.. a ll thing, already payed by them :)
[11:53 AM] Joe Magarac: There's a Rust WebRTC implementation. If I get to voice, I will use that.
[11:54 AM] Joe Magarac: Thanks. Gotta go, next meeting...
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: so any other topic?
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Are we still headed out of OSG?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: pfff
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for meetings
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: we should really rotate around
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ok, so no specific plans
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: i still have that hobe tent
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: Ohhhh noooo possible lost with osg assets
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: hobo..
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks for your wonderful support and for Misterblue's work on WebRTC. We are thankful for everything you do
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: love that tent.. my first sl home
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Agree with Lyr
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff gone
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We should give thanks more often
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: they are deserved
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and nods
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thunderstorms here
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we needed the rain, so not complaining
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Take care, dear friends, and have a great week
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1V8YRJnr4Q
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Take care Lyr. See you next week.
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Lyr
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I should prob head out too if there's no further topics
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to ask if there is anything more to talk about today as we have reached the top of the hour.
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I made a cool log roller game
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice.
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol... thats all I have :)
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks, take care, see you all soon
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga.
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing else for today we can bring this meeting to an end.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-02-24

2026-02-24T20:27:36Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Greetings! [11:02 A..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Greetings!
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... that's what I say at the start of my email messages. :)
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There were quite a few commits to the code base this past week.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of fun testing as well
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me nods and grins
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: A new ll command was added and several changes related to webrtc.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: you mean a new lsl function?
[11:09 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: picky picky picky
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: precision is his life
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL could learn a thing or two
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: well yes Robert did donate his webrtc module that intefaces to janus gateways to opensim, and allowed it to be under BSD license like the rest of our code
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: so i did add it, and started breaking it
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably is an LL command. ;)
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the process...
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's good.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: before that i did add the sls function llSetRendermaterial
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: lsl even
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: it allows change of the PBR base asset used on a prim face, or all faces
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: llSetRenderMaterial is the new LSL command mentioned in the change log.
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does clear any possible override except transforms like texture repeats etc
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and those where the last week code changes
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile i learned that OSGrid decide to ship a closed source region module, while still telling they use opensimilator code
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am confused about one thing with tjuis wee's changes. . If I want to download the latest from trunk and build it for vivox, what's the process for switching webrtc support on/'off? Is it still controlled through the presence of the webrtc module in the build chain?
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: config parameters
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OpenSim.ini ?
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: I want to make clear that code OSgrid is not shiping is entirely OSGrid responsability
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, you can configure freeswitch, vivox or webrtc based on what sections and options you put in there. The ini was set to example so it shouldn't autoload anymore
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: their implicit or explicit claim to be using only Opensimulator is Worng, even a abuse
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What is the purpose of the closed source module?
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems to be about displaynames... but it is closed source.. who knows..
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: OSG strayed off the path years ago and never bothered to correct anyone that saw them as test grid for OpenSim, it is not and hasn't been since Nebadon left basically
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You are right it is questionable that apparently people still provide donations with the idea that it somehow benefits development of OpenSim
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.osgrid.org/download
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Possibly display names? :P If that is it, they can keep it.
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Amen
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: all on that page seems to imply they are only using opensimulator opensource code
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: they even mention the git commit
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing warns users abotu the use of proprietary closed source code
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Adding a region module to an install wouldn't have an impact on the git commit hash.
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is closed source.. no relation to our git
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And to re-iterate changing avatar names is not something that should be done unless they are otherwise malformed. HG was not designed with that in mind and things will break. Create a new avatar and move the inventory, which can technically be done directly through the database or IARs
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Displaynames are technically a better option, but are a huge can of worms in their own right and any implementation is likely flawed and won't be HG compatible anyways unless all parties run the same code
[11:23 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Haven't they strayed from trunk since they they didn't use My Suitcase?
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure. I think the legs of the t-rex passed both sides of me. That was a very close call.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: to not use that is a option on our code
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also different group system, which may or may not be the xml groups shipped. Different asset server waiting to fail catastrophically again and who knows what else
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you are curious you can dotpeek the dlls I suppose, but shouldn't have to if it was really all open source
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel jsut letting you know the situation
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: OSGrid not has nothing to do with OpenSimulator.. they even say that in private
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact think we must make clear that we have nothing to do with this OSgrid
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can not accept to see close source code been forced on users, without proper information
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: and we can not accept it claims to be a reliable generic usr grid, while if fact it can only be a limited test grid with free or low value assets
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: becasue a grid that allows any region running my users with users code can not be made secure
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. running by users...
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Frankly, bluntly, the attitude towards the project stinks and the way things have unfolded over the last couple months or years makes it clear the focus isn't on the users
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well this what i wanted to share with you for now
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: We will need to think abotu opensimulator actions on thise
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: lie to start possible moving this meetings of of here to other grid
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..out of here..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc also find other ways of stress test our code
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: side we cant test it 'linked' with closed source code at runtime
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon was good at helping to stress test the code with his high prim count sierpinski triangle, the number of animated NPCs, and the number of avatars he could get logged in to region.
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: Nebadon was also member of opensimulator core
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: back then osgrdi was really the major opensim test platform
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: but all that was 'gentleman agreements'
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: thsoe dont do not last long
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: gentlemen are replace by other kinds...
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: those where the news i had for you, this week
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: what do you think?
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No surprises here frankly
[11:40 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: excellentthat we got that code
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: webrtc testing is fun
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: webrtc yay
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: what code? robert's ?
[11:41 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: yeaH
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: well still lots of work
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc you do need to run janus gateway on a linux box
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Code in trunk already has more fixes than Robert's repo, correct?
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah im breaking it
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just want to clarify, I can build OS and switch between vivox and webrtc with configs, without rebuilding?
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ty +)
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: =)
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: for now webrtc config lives in folder bin/config
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus runs great on Mac too
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: in time its parts will be moved to other places like opensim.ini etc
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: i also placed it on opensim/addons
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: well some groups code also live there
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: external modules live in addon-modules
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact onc coudl also put code from roberts github there
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm just still some collision on the ini files
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is webrtc config documented anywhere besides Robert's github?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: nopes only there
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok, its already out of date then
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can-t doc what we still don-t have working :)
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: tehre is his readme also on opensim/addons/os-web...
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well most of his info is still valid\
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We should think about adding something to OS docs, even if very brief high level. To cover the setup process and at least what is working. Since the code is in trunk now
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: only the compilation of the modules changed
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well maybe after it's further along
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah i even plan to change the 2 server names :)
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: spatial and nonspacial are confusing names
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: they will be ParcelsVOice and hmm something on the other
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: AdHocVoice possible
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We could take a poll on what names to use LOL
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: spacial or non spacial is a option for the parcels voice
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact all non spacial now :)
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for me those words are clear
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: They to me
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: i just told you why they are not
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well that detail not important
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: spacial or not is a room option.. not a server name
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: or service name
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: anayws possible most uses will put all on a single service
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ie janus gateway
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: the 2 sericces there follow the ll model
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: they run parcels voice gateways on same machines as regions
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: and the rest on a grid wide pool of gateways
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: So it is about the context in which the words are used. Does it require two separate servers/services or whatever the proper term is for the back end to handle spatial vs non-spatial within a given parcel? In the viewer it is just a selectable option.
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewer does not give you option about spacial voice
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: parcels are spatial (3d) at sl
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and in OS with Vivox
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: in fact same as vivox
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: there it is clear it is a room or channle option
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The viewer has an option for hearing nearby voices at full volume. That sounds like non-spatial.
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: opensim only
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: fs tells
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: well, this is opensim.
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yes, in SL that Prefs option turns off the spatial in parcels and delivers full volume
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nice feature
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: no idea why thay say that is opensim thing
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but not criticasl for an initial rollout
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't used it very often but I have had the occasional need for it.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: scengate does have that
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyways viewers can jsut tell voice that avatar are all on same position
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah, might be a client thing
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: do not see that option on sl viewer
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour mark. Does anyone have a topic for today before people start needing to return to RL?
[12:04 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I upgraded to FS 7.2.3.80036. It was NOT happy. Spinnied until I had to leave for work. Second attempt finally came up but all cache gone.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm getting further behind. I'm still on 7.1.11
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I thought that option was in SL viewer also. Maybe they removed it for webrtc
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting!
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway as i said 3d or not should be a option
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: vivox even had more..
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That was another close call. Almost took out Lyr.
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh no, Jagga
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so sorry to hear it
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe have fun! *hugs all around*
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: like the vocie range and shape of volume curve with distance
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: vivox..
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks for all your loving support
[12:07 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: bounced aroujnd to all my regions. it'sback
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That option is on my Firestorm SL viewer
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sound & media -> Voice
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Hear nearby voices at full volume"
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: i see it telling it is a opensim only thing
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Does one need a new(er) version of FS to use webrtc?
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: one with webrtc
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My experience with FS 7 is they are getting more stable
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: in fact current ones have at least a bug
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :) ok. I will see what is the latest available version and update what I have after this meeting has concluded.
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Uh oh! Here comes the T-rex again. Yet another close call. Just missed Jagga.
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: that my block webrtc on soem grids until a edit is made on grids xml file
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: ...may..
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks for ther update Ubit, I'm going to play with webrtc this week
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: issue is on how viewers decide stun service to use locally
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: they have hacked code only vlaid for SL
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: or valid..
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: ohh cool fs is telling i dont have enough memory for textures
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess that was a sintome of a dyiong 13th gen cpu
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( in this case sounds more like a fs bug )
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: have a nice week
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *smiles and wzves
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: aldso waves
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: look to our site for the meeting location
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: we may move it to other grid, as i said
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye, Cuga. Take care. See you next week.
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Zeta?
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah zeta is a option
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: There are Plenty of grids out there.
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: in fact we should move around grids
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice idea but might be confusing to people who aren't regulars at these meetings.
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: since opensim is not propriety of any grid
[12:15 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can set up something on aviworlds or I've got a spot on zeta
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: well vicent still has our corner there as backup
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bring the dino
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:16 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves - see you all later
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ZW also has some code things that aren't open though, it's largely based and follows master dev, but I did make changes
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok.. going rl
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We should ask Nebadon for the creature from Alien.
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: think that was a avatar even
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: A number of the large(r) grids have some custom features/code.
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they do and it is normal
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: but they do not ship their code
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: He populated a region with them once. I thought he had it as an NPC.
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: claiming it is from opensim git blabla
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Kitely is another possible grid.
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is not about grids doing it.. BSD allows all that
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is abotu OSGrid doing it.. and the way they are doing it
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Of course. A lot of them do that as part of making it easier for them to maintain/manage their grid.
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: ufff
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: well think i was clear about the issue already
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya
[12:21 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The Kitey reference was a suggestion for another grid where we could meet. I've also used TangleGrid but they seem to have changed a while ago. Looks a bit like they may have been (in part) taken over by some other people.
[12:21 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Zeta seens solid and we already have the space
[12:22 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to call the meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-02-17

2026-02-17T20:16:33Z

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, I'm still not quite used to you sitting on that side of the bar.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know...
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: or skating on arrival
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but I'm breaking boundaries and enjoying life
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the view is great from every seat
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: FYI, I'm expecting a delivery. I may have to step away for a bit during the meeting.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I hope that everyone is well and having a great week
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi everyone, and thanks Lyr... I've been busy building stuff
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great!
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much to report in regards to code changes this past week. There was just one.
[11:08 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: logging?
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some extra checks for NULL pointers in the Profile code if I'm reading the change log entry correctly.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did some testing with roberts voice code using janus-gatyeway
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: mnaged to add a hack so ims that makws im text chat to work
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: bad keyboard
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: hack so that im text chat does work
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good. Not so good about the bad keyboard.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: MB did add it to his repo
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: but it is a hack
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: amore complex solution is needed
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: also voice still not working.. also needs more hacking
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: issu is that ll made a little mess
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel not that new.. we just never did care and things worked
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is about multiuser im chats
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: that we never had, and we where fine
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: not when webrtc is active, viewers enforce it and the respective protocols and api
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: to there is chat members control. moderation etc
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: more or less liek groups. just groups use still another protocol
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, I always wondered why we couldn't create a group chat. So it was just not impemented
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: so the hack was to mk viewer believe we care about the ims protocol :)
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i did not test groups
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: maybe voice on webrtc has diferent api also
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean groups...
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK, so the WebRTC plugin on MrBlue's github has been updated this weekend, and works better, sort of
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: err and protocol to region and grid. Ofc it has other on low level audio comes
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: comms
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel as i said just made it do p2p chat ims
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: local text chat also works?
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: never stopped working
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hmm ok
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact change was in a chat session creation
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: This is great news
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal chat is basicly has before via lludp
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..as..
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So the update works well enough to get us by without Vivox, in a pinch, until a more thorough implementation is made
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: just chat sessions wnat a centralized manegement
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel we need to hack for p2p voice also
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc we have no webrtc datachannels
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is ugly at least..
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That will be needed for spacial, correct?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: no indication abotu who is talking.. intensity etc
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no green volume above head
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact leave vocie rooms may be broken without that also
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing is telling janus that one closed the session
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least the protocol has messages for that on the webrtc datachannel
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So that wouldn't be too hard to add, using that datachannel
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: that means adding code to janus..
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not to plugin?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: changing the audiobridge plugin
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Might need to create a new plugin anyway for spacial
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and yeah more fun compiling that crap for several linux flavors )
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and Mac lol
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well does not compile on win
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: noit sure it will on macs either
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It does compile
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: possilbe even not on all linux
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus author is a Mac head, so the support page has detailed instructions
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: they use at least one lib that does very low level talk with kernel
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: major reason why does not compile on win... even under cyhwin
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: or cygwin
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh no whatever will we do, if only there was a way to run a small linux on another operating system in like a box... like some sort of... virtual... machine...
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: wll there is also the 15ms time resolution .. but there are work arounds
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well im testing on wsl
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but cant ask ppl on stanalones on small grids to run wsl also
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't account for every use case though, they also don't have things like search or other external services. Can't even buy land without the land tool
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: think we have a hack for the buy
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: well may add robert code to master.. if he allows relicencing
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: excited to try it this week
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc freeswitch may still work doing vivox
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: with great telecom voice quality of late 70's
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: saldy viewers do a mess and we cant add cupport for both on a region
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well with some other module...
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: with other webetc stack, we could even make vivox talk with webrtc
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( vivox again alaw/ulaw codecs )
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc we do not have the better quality one viewers support on vivox
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Having ad-hoc im groups would be nice to have, but needs hg support also
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: but well all viewers will be happy do delete vivox support if we get webrtc working
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc also forcing PBR on everyone..
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have yet to see something that looks better with it
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Voice is a capabilities thing, vivox/webrtx can change as you HG TP around
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: server and viewer need to support both for a while, until Vivox pulls the plug
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well grids like osg will have issues
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are suposed to open a im chat and tp around with it working
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: that may not happen on a grid like osg or HG
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Never fully worked
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg can-t have a central voice server
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc can-t control access to it
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They can havean offsite service though
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: a normal grid can hide it behind firewall only letting local regions see it
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: janus has a user management system that can generate individual access keys and so on, it's a matter of setup
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that easy
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nothing ever is
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus server for a region doesn;t have to be on the same network
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: isue is on the grid side control
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: and janus control
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: same issue as assets
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg assets service is public
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Janus could be leased somewhere else. Doesn;t have to be same grid
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: yo are missing the point
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is about regions access control
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have none
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see. That is different from Vivox?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: assets services on normal giurds are protected by their firewalls
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: dif is that with vivox you could have personal assount
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: and stiil talk with other users, even or other grids
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc vivos has a full user management
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: janus has.. nothing
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes it has that, it's just not enabled by default
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well just a limits thing
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: limited..
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can create api keys with full access or you can tie it to a user management system and generate individual keys
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even restrict users to only be able to open sessions to each other as in per-region
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways opengrid model like osgrdi is broken in many ways
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a matter of config
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: this will be just another detail
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is more than config
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: is extra arch
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You'd need to know the session id in order to insert yourself into a session and spy on anyone
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Still a lot of work to implement these details, but at least there is a path to doing it
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: and who you think creates session ids and passwds in current impl ?
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's on mb if he uses the admin calls rather than user ones
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and needs access control also do to that )
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: nopes.. admin or user is the same problem
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe under that condition should not be merged then, because janus of course has controls for those things
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: no mahjor issue on normal grids
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: again bc janus is behiung firewals
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( no hg )
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If voice not supported across HG its not the end of the world
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. it is a problem identical to assets etc
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If everything else working I would consider it a win
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: on inventory etc
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: on grids like osg central services are all open to the world
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: By charter or by choice of tech?
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions should have access control
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: only reg regiosn should connect
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: to start..
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is a useless thing for "normal"grids
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: so no one did anything about that
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: oc also not a issue on a grid where everything is free etc
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: jsut bandwith on a thing like janus may have extra costs
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: and the demand on cpu i bet will not be small
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's an admin problem, not a software one
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: duhh
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: if soft does not give thje tools... who do admins admin ??
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: how
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't account for all use cases, only the ones actually properly setup. Saving people from themselves is not the goal, that's too much work
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Stuff to worry about once it's working in the first place, then it can be made pretty
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well thats a normal trap..
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: if you do not plan for pretty, it will never will be pretty
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It will be brittle at first, but at least working
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( look to you unplaned hair paint ) :p
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Implement a hack as proof of concept, then redo in pretty and proper until it works again
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My biggest fear is that we poke so many critisicms at a rough implementation that it pisses off the developer and never gets finished
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. each region owner will need to get his own voice solution
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: at least local chat will work
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ims.. may work in same cases.. not all
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel same for groups voice
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm that will be veryu broken
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: can only see those working on a normal grid
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hopefully, things that don't work, just silently don't work without showstopper bugs
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: well for nowe we need a lot more .. just thinking ahead
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: liek datachannel...
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm so happy to see movement on this
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From testing janus it also seems like it will behave quite well even with thousands of miles of cables for voice to travel through. Quality is certainly better than what vivox currently offers us
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next step, fixing the license
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok any other issue? rl is calling
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great day!
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm off, too...take care! Many thanks to everyone for your wonderful support.
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks Ubit
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out too
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok have fun, cya all next week if not before :)
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-02-10

2026-02-10T20:39:58Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I find it crazy that a c..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I find it crazy that a country don't have the same age limits across the board in the country. Makes it unmanageable
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: This is a strange conversation to catch in the middle.
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we talked about Discord age verification
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: and long ago since parents where happy having less than 10 years old using and killing hookers on GTA
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to be rolled out from March
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: kids very quiet on their rooms giving no work
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Cuga
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi everyone :)
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess in uik now you need to pay for a companie to certify you are adult
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: as if a company would know, eh?
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi lyr.Lobo
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: you need to upload to them id cards pics etc etc
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc pure nonsense
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All just masking the problem and in the end either data breaches or scandals when it comes out none of it worked
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: As if that isn't going to be a possible route to identify theft.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually LL requires the same to use Tilia
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: makes it easier
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Discord already has a history of data breaches
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I never gave them my ID
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had to upload a copy of the passport
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but after 20 years, they probably figured that I was an adult *winks*
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Tenu, the online China trash store requires you to upload stuff to a UK company to browse all sections of the store
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Temu
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as an example
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: wild
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0GFRcFm-aY
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i've never given a vendor my ID and do not plan to do so
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: say goodbye to future online shopping
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: give credit card number.. same thing
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was about to say the same Ubit
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: paypal
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause no kid would ever be able to remember a few digits right... right...
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: So in summary both the Opensim and SL discord will be age verified soonish
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I already did that for the uk ofcom nonsense
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not fun
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: well this adult crap is just politicians pretending to so something
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will likely leave Discord. But I don't care, I've always felt I can take it or leave it
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Another bites the dusk....
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The stock and user activity will be interesting to watch
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone suggested that companies wanting to scrape user data will invest in Discord
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's see, no commits this week, bad devs were lazy :D New FS release came out fixing some things
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: gess bad lazy devs
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Playing games and having fun, how dare they! XD
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the ølatest Epson release has turned this county upside down, so there has not been time to think of anything else
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Epstein
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: epson :-)
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The Epson printer scandal
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The page didn't print itself or something
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pages would only print redacted
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Misterblue. Long time, no see.
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi MB
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi MrBlue!
[11:15 AM] Misterblue Waves: hello all. Long time no rez.
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any physics related news for us, Misterblue?
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or WebRTC?
[11:19 AM] Misterblue Waves: havent done anything with physics
[11:20 AM] Misterblue Waves: for WebRTC, it still has the problem that IMs don't work when WebRTC is enabled/happening
[11:20 AM] Misterblue Waves: for that, I've grubbed through the code and haven't figured it out (the chat code in the viewer is kinda convoluted)
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: you mean person to person ims right?
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: local chat too
[11:21 AM] Misterblue Waves: the only thought I have is that LL might have used the group chat system for IMs
[11:21 AM] Misterblue Waves: that is, there is that whole group chat and chatterbox stuff that is optional in OpenSIm
[11:22 AM] Misterblue Waves: it could be that now, even person-to-person chats expect the chatterbox event and then set up the general chat stuff
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: part of chatterbox is needed for voice
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb ims want to check mute state on voice servers?
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no idea.. jsut guessing
[11:24 AM] Misterblue Waves: it would make some sense for them to do that (consolidate chat into the general system) but I have not done the work of setting that stuff up and seeing if that is what they're doing
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would it be helpful if a FS dev got involved or help answer questions?
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ages ago on sl test servers, p2p text ims did not work when the webrtc voice servers where down
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it is clear they to want something from them
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: local chat worked fone
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: see no relation..
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: fone? fine!
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no solution for win.. so pain to test it fully
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is spacial audio also being worked on?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah dream on...
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's kinda the big stand out feature
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dolby Atmos
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: support is needed
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: and wil be fun to see webrtc running on machines as powerfuls as PIs, with regions also
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they will only blame robert for slow code :)
[11:30 AM] Misterblue Waves: there was work on modifying Janus to process the data channel but I haven't heard much in a while
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ... will all ...
[11:30 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: had a message arrive from Orbert about the latest Firestorm not working with the latest linux Kubuntu 25.10 - crashed under Wayland, but ran X11. Since they are dropping X11 support this year, he had to downgrade Linux to Kubuntu 24.04 to run Firestorm
[11:30 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: FYI
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: well working fine on win so far
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: and he should tell fs on their hmm jira?
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, that was not with firestorm 7.2.3 but with the previous version
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libgdiplus is dependent on X11 yeah
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, will tell him ...just FYI
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: at most libgdi uses libs from glib
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is not x11
[11:32 AM] Misterblue Waves: For webrtc, there is the capability ChatSessionRequest that the Vivox driver kinda ignored. That is generated when trying to start an IM. Does anyone know anything about that?
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact libs from GTK ?
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only noticed when I installed libgdiplus on macOS it installed s hitload of X11 stuff
[11:33 AM] Misterblue Waves: oh man, I'm fighting library differences in the different Linuxes. It's not pretty even between Ubuntu versions.
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: it needes pango anc cairo if i remember
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And pango seems to be bugged at the moment as well
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that is why linux is useless for desktop
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: distros just killed it
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes it does Ubit
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Linux updates suffer from changes in libc when moving to new kernels. I would just stick with Deb 13 or Ub 24.04 for development.
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all of these are X11 related dependecies installed on macOS
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: xorg-libice @1.1.2_0 (active) xorg-libsm @1.2.6_0 (active) xorg-libX11 @1.8.12_0 (active) xorg-libXau @1.0.12_0 (active) xorg-libxcb @1.17.0_0+python312 (active) xorg-libXdmcp @1.1.5_0 (active) xorg-libXext @1.3.6_0 (active) xorg-libXt @1.3.1_0+docs (active) xorg-xcb-proto @1.17.0_0+python312 (active) xorg-xcb-util @0.4.1_0 (active) xorg-xorgproto @2024.1_0 (active) xrender @0.9.12_0 (active)
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel wine also needs libgdiplus
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ans other things
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: libice is the dependency it needed, rest probably just part of that chain
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause that's what pango wants to build as well
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ice on libgdi??
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: on webrtc maybe...
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even though lib pango dev doesn't... no I'm not gonna get angry over this again
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One day Canonical or the maintainer will fix it, maybe before I crumble into dust
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Someone shoudl email them, we might be the only ones who care
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm and long since i did look to voice code MB
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: but fear data channel maybe a must
[11:39 AM] Misterblue Waves: there is a lot of functionality in the data channel that goes with the audio
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and valic certs
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers may enforce certs validation
[11:40 AM] Misterblue Waves: per-user volume, muting, who has voice (all the white dots), ...
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: ll uses own signed certs, but adds itself to viewers as root
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure what viewers enforce on that
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does this region no longer have voice?
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: has music.. be happy with that..
[11:42 AM] Misterblue Waves: I don't know how the group chat stuff works. Who last worked on that?
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Focus on the spatial audio and things like muting and volume. That's more important than IMs. Viewers have things for adhoc group IMs as well, which isn't supported either so that's icing on the cake for later
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I wouldn't know. I haven't had working voice in world in quite some time.
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to check if it is gone on my grid too
[11:44 AM] Misterblue Waves: I run my own Janus server if anyone needs a server to test with. Just IM me for the API key
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: module is loaded
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: IMs work on session ids which are negotiated among the participants and kept track of internally. There is a call to create one and then the users can talk to each other, which means it isn't just a single call to create one
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks, Misterblue
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff not getting any messages abt voice on console
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: wonder if this viewer still has vivox
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It does, I have voice from my home region
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: Beq told me it would stay for opensim
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:46 AM] Misterblue Waves: it looks like the viewer sends some IDs to the server with the ChatSessionRequest. I figure that might should generate a chatterbox event to the other person so they can negotiate voice or text chatting. Still, haven't tested so not sure.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which branch is the one to test with, because not all of them build?
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have lost voice in my grid it looks lie
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like
[11:48 AM] Misterblue Waves: the WebRTC code is still an addon-module for OpenSim master. There isn't a good standalone solution so it hasn't been incorporated into core
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LBSA still has or?
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But you have multiple branches on github for it, some older than others. Some of those don't build with master dev as they use code that doesn't exist there
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't really integrate it anyways seeing as the license is mismatched at the moment
[11:50 AM] Misterblue Waves: doesn't os-webrtc-janus main branch build with OpenSim?
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That one works, but it's also months old now, other branches are newer
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok Ubit
[11:52 AM] Misterblue Waves: there is the feature/loginRequestAdds branch that has an attempt to make IMs work. Was a dead end.
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: no voice connection at lbsa either
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no?
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops nm it did connect
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm seems i have no settings for vivox
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that would explain it :)
[11:54 AM] Misterblue Waves: when logging in, the login response contains some new parameters (audio_config and voice-config) and I though those might be effecting the text IM selection in the viewer. That wasn't so.
[11:56 AM] Misterblue Waves: there is also a patch to OpenSim to add a callback so modules can add fields to the login response. That should probably be added to OpenSim in any case.
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think that is just adding ability to configure rather than use hardcoded values
[11:57 AM] Misterblue Waves: since Vivox seems to be deader than it used to be, I should spend some more time on WebRTC
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: login is grid side
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions cant mess with that
[11:59 AM] Misterblue Waves: hummm... you're right about that. Those setting must be setting grid defaults. The values are audio_config=webrtc and voice-config={VoiceServerType=webrtc}
[12:00 PM] Misterblue Waves: must be defaults if the information isn't in the Features list
[12:01 PM] Misterblue Waves: or maybe just non-functional stuff left over from early LL development. Who knows. But it doesn't seem to make any difference as far as I can tell.
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for your support Misterblue. We appreciate it
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: i dont see that at sl login
[12:03 PM] Misterblue Waves: what about the voice mixer? I did Janus because it was available and usable. But it's a separate server that must be run per grid (and region can run its own). But do we want a separate service like that?
[12:03 PM] Misterblue Waves: I guess it's like money service
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: only see 'VoiceServerType':'webrtc'
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: on simulator features
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you want to run mail you have to supply an smtp server and outside of sqlite a database server. External dependencies are fine. Now it would be better if those were also platform independent like the dbs, but even those aren't truly independent either
[12:05 PM] Misterblue Waves: I tried to make Janus as easy to use as possible with a Docker image
[12:05 PM] Misterblue Waves: but adding the voice data channel process would be a new Janus plugin so it would kindof become a custom version of Janus for OpenSim
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go. We'll see next week
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The build instructions for janus aren't difficult to follow and actually seem to work, so adding a plugin to that wouldn't be hard
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just an extra plugin. Janus seems to be failrly easy to build
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I got the same success/errors building and running on a Mac lol
[12:07 PM] Misterblue Waves: looking at Github, it is shocking that I did the webrtc addon over a year ago
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so thjats actually encouraging
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The bigger problem with this is latency and session management. Ideally a setup would run multiple instances in different locations, selecting the one with the best connection to all participants, but this also means it benefits from being able to move these sessions to more appropriate locations depending on who is connected
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Far as I can tell webrtc sessions can be moved and clients told where else to connect to, but this isn't builtin in janus either
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Building an entirely new system for voice might as well do it properly and thoroughly
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: janus only ships with some demos
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: ll made most of the needed code
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: janus gives the control etc..
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope voice will be working nicely by next OSCC. It would be nice to be able to talk in world again.
[12:11 PM] Misterblue Waves: and I'm not sure how complete the LL webrtc implementation is. The protocol handshake is webrtc-ish but, like it doesn't do the usual ICE negotation (using it's own Capability). I wouldn't be surprized to find that session handoff and such isn't there
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: Janus is a WebRTC Gateway developed by Meetecho conceived to be a general purpose one. As such, it doesn't provide any functionality per se other than implementing the means to set up a WebRTC media communication with a browser, exchanging JSON messages with it, and relaying RTP/RTCP and messages between browsers and the server-side application logic they're attached to. Any specific feature/application is provided by server side plugins, that browsers can then contact via the gateway to take advantage of the functionality they provide. Example of such plugins can be implementations of applications like echo tests, conference bridges, media recorders, SIP gateways and the like.
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: "
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is their imp
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: all webrtc things are unique
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: discord totally diverge form spec
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: from..
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc no 3d voice on webrtc, that i know :)
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: could be with a new plugin :)
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: so guess we could call it llWebRTC
[12:13 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: hello
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hi Joyce!
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: hi joyce.Bettencourt
[12:14 PM] Misterblue Waves: 3d voice is not in webrtc. SL has all that info in their own data channel that is parallel to the audio channel. All mixing must happen in Janus (or whatever)
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joyce.
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great to see you
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: happens on the conference bridge
[12:15 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: Lyr was sharing some notes on this chat on webRTC and Firestorm.. so wanted to pop by
[12:15 PM] Misterblue Waves: I'm not a low-level audio mixing wizard. I am afraid to dig into a 3d audio mixing module
[12:16 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: understandable
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess is is messing up volume per user
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: on top of per user volume control
[12:17 PM] Misterblue Waves: the only code I know to crib from would be the audio mixing being used in the Overte virtual world. That one is the source code that came from HighFidelity
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: the linden working on voice worked on that also
[12:17 PM] Misterblue Waves: per-user volume is in the data channel and, yes, at the moment, there is no per-user volume, muting
[12:18 PM] Misterblue Waves: also no white dot over the other avatars that have voice
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( did migrate to ll whne phil returned it seems )
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: well chant ims are the worse issue
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: chat also
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats what we need, local chant
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:19 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: (gets out Liber Usualis)
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9nmSJ3gesE&list=RDMM&index=10
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: MisterBlue, would a meetup with a FS dev help at this point? Just tossing out ideas
[12:21 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have contacts there and you got Gavin as well, so plenty of brainpower to dig into the viewer side of things, just need to know what exactly to look for
[12:23 PM] Ubit Umarov: well i did install wsl
[12:24 PM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc have issues with current robert license
[12:24 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel details
[12:24 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a linux (mac) only solution also
[12:24 PM] Ubit Umarov: i was looking for other code
[12:25 PM] Ubit Umarov: but its lic has a ban to israel
[12:25 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: would bringing in puffball too be helpful.. not sure if she can help with anything in diving into the existing viewer voice for her viewer approach
[12:25 PM] Misterblue Waves: the only question I could have for the FS people is about group messaging being used for the IMs. But they probably don't know the answer as that's something the server could have just done
[12:25 PM] Ubit Umarov: forbid to use that code in isreal
[12:25 PM] Misterblue Waves: so I don't think a meeting with FS would help
[12:26 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: @Joyce - I don;t think PuffBall has done any webrtc work
[12:26 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( libreopenmetaverse is using that lib guess no one does read lics )
[12:26 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: /me nods
[12:27 PM] Misterblue Waves: libremetaverse has a 3-clause BSD license
[12:27 PM] Ubit Umarov: (err libremetaverse )
[12:27 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeha but uses other soft
[12:28 PM] Ubit Umarov: like sipsorcery
[12:29 PM] Ubit Umarov: and that lic reads:
[12:29 PM] Ubit Umarov: ...
[12:29 PM] Ubit Umarov: ## 2. Additional Restriction: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) – Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike **Boycott Divestment Sanctions – Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (BDS BY-NC-SA)** This software **must not be used** to further the Apartheid policies of Israel. Use, modification, or distribution **inside** Israel and the Occupied Territories is strictly forbidden until the demands of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement have been met:
[12:29 PM] Ubit Umarov: ....
[12:29 PM] Ubit Umarov: nonsense.. but its there
[12:31 PM] Ubit Umarov: so we can not consider software with such restrictions
[12:31 PM] Ubit Umarov: petty it is a c# stack that includes webrtc
[12:32 PM] Misterblue Waves: time for me to run... I'll again look into the webrtc IM issue. Wish me luck. I hope to return from the spelunking
[12:32 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc with some codecs in native code )
[12:32 PM] Ubit Umarov: Ok MB hope to see you here next week >(
[12:32 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks MisterBlue
[12:32 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:33 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If anyone needs to reach me I'm at cuga@rajal.org. I might not be staying on Discord
[12:34 PM] Ubit Umarov: until you are 16 for them ? :)
[12:34 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rofl
[12:34 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm involved with some projects and groups of people that use Discord so I won't be leaving it any time soon.
[12:34 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: yeah that is another community communications rub.. the Discord thing
[12:34 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to see you again, Mr. B.
[12:35 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:35 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Have a great day and thanks!
[12:35 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out... have a great week everybody :)
[12:35 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: See you next week
[12:35 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga.
[12:36 PM] Joyce.Bettencourt @grid.avacon.org:8002: nod Andrew, similar for now
[12:37 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for today I will end with my usual comment.
[12:37 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-02-03

2026-02-03T20:12:30Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hello everyone [11:08 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: sorry i hop..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hello everyone
[11:08 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: sorry i hope it's not offensive was not intention
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some commits this week
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah he did told me he could not join us today
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, too bad.
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: so about last week code changes..
[11:09 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: the last one was like minor i think - cosmetic
[11:09 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i haven't build that one yet
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: added a missing constant for click action
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: CLICK_ACTION_IGNORE
[11:11 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: oh could be another one after that. i will shut up lol
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and dictionaly to find parcels per fakeid was not set correctly on startup
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: and yes some little cosmetics
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess it was it :)
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and yes parcel fake ids are not valid uuids )
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So far the fix for the prim inventory seems to hold. Running a couple days now I have had no reports, but not everything up that yet so time will tell
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Looking forward to getting that in trunk
[11:16 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i guess i'm 6 commits behind you
[11:17 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i better push the ketchup button
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: so what news do you have about opensimulator?
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don;t always update to the latest build unless it fixes something I care about
[11:19 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it's a pain to me to update if i let it go too long
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I haven't experienced any pains in updating
[11:19 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: that's good
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent youre not rendering for me lol
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: git can be fun if there are merges
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh that, yes :)
[11:20 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: yes i have to merge master into my changes
[11:20 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: or vice-versa lol
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh I see Vincent now
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe the latest FS beta is not liking my system body
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They fixed the old shader so now things look round again
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm forget your diet again, to look that round?
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The beer in front of me probably not helping either xD
[11:22 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[11:22 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i miss a drink every once in awhile but i definitely don't miss hangovers
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I saw a weird issue this week where a mesh model was very different LI between ubODE and Bullet
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 5 LI in Bullet, 10,000 LI in ubODE
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/fantastic-castle-08a018e4e7b3486dbec7b0341be3aeb4
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sometimes model siffer by a small amount but i havent seen this before
[11:24 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i would trust the 10,000
[11:24 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: you think a thing like that is only 5 li?
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in Bullet it is
[11:25 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i remember uploading a huge complicated thing and it said 1 li
[11:25 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: haha
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a huge 1LI building thats 1LI in both engines
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well li is only a crude reference
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well, thats the only exciting news I have for today
[11:26 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: of course it's possible. but when i uploaded the same thing on SL it burned all my prims :)
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: not even close to sl one..
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The uv mapping on that is atrocious jeez. It's unjoined so it'll split into prims
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ahhh
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That model can serve as a good exasmple
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: (of what not to do lol)
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:27 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: that's a nice castle btw
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It is, thats why I wanted to import it :)
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: with nanite, even meshes done for games, are not that good either
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well done for unreal, at least
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In some cases you want it splitting if you need individual prims for scripts, but generally joining is less heavy, but might not upload cleanly if models get very complex
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It was a super easy upload in Bullet :)
[11:29 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: did you try removing that base
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: lost count on how many times i told that physics engines have nothing to so with uploads
[11:29 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: ok just a thought
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..to do...
[11:30 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: just turn off physics on that region lol
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Physics type None
[11:30 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: things will load faster :)
[11:33 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: omg there's a trex out there coming this way
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: he likes to eat ppl now to him
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sometimes she walks right through the meeting
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: new
[11:33 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[11:33 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: that's funny
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: now and they vincent hair does scare him
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Still no socket crashes, I'm guessing that the socket try..catch fix nailed it.. whatever it was
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: at most it did hide it
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I haven't been able to catch one on release code either
[11:35 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: oh i had a question maybe. why is there a hard coded 1sec delay in fsassets
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: dont thing there is..
[11:36 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i changed it a bit and have it generate uuid first and say thanks so much to the post request
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: or hink
[11:36 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: then it processes
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeak think even
[11:36 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: well i changed it to .1
[11:36 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[11:37 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: nothing bad happened yet
[11:37 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: maybe it prevents a race condition i guess
[11:37 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: let me look for it
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: what is its name?
[11:38 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it's FSassets i'm looking for the file
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FSAssetService.cs line 360
[11:38 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: under Services
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's on the disk writer routine
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You cannot pummel the disk with a lot of requests less you run into issues with inode generation and file locking
[11:39 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i saw Vincents comments about shredding drives so i was concerned a bit
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The service processes each request so it is async and can run multiple at the same time
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh that is on the background wirter
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's region side
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: writer
[11:40 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: ok i was wondering why that was put in
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is always running
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is pooling timing
[11:40 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: yes, i think it delays receiviing inventory posts from other grids though but i'm not 100%
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are similar sleeps in things like map tiles, because file writes are heavy and you want to throttle them a little if requests can come in hundreds at a time
[11:41 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it won't send another until it receives the uuid back
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ie to check if there are files to copy from tmp to store folder
[11:41 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: but i'm not an expert it just seemed to cause that to happen
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: it writes a new asset under temp file name on t temp folder
[11:42 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: yes and sends back the uuid
[11:42 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i think
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The writer function has no return, it's not waiting on that, it just delays the next request so disk can finish writing
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: then that writer does the write to the main folder with compression later
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is pooling timing
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: only waits that time if there are no files to move
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: HG avatar attachments are meant to be temporary anyways, at least in db, caches may keep them though
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: no much point on getting if faster
[11:45 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: like when you "buy" something on another grid and it sends the assets through the pipeline it needs to get back asset id <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><string>' . $assetID . '</string>
[11:46 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it can work without but that can cause problems
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said new assets are stored on a spooldir with no delay
[11:46 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: from what i could tell the sending server won't send another until it gets back the uuid
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: holds out a cracker for dino
[11:46 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[11:46 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i saw that thing walking by
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: this writer later moves it to the base dir doing compression
[11:47 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: hoping it was going to go on me
[11:48 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: oops NOT go on me
[11:50 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i was experimenting speeding up transfers. possibly will break something but oh well lol. so it generates UUID and sends it back right away and says thanks. then continues to process the incoming asset
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: got why that delay ?
[11:51 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i thought it was maybe in case there was an asset request before it was done writing
[11:51 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: then you have a race condition i think
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: nopes it has locks to avoid those
[11:52 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: well i think you can time it like if you get a box with 30 things in it it adds 30 second to the transfer
[11:53 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: not that noticeable though
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. ity just does extra delayed work on another thread
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: see-ing up the main service one a bit ( no data compression phase)
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: speeding..
[11:54 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it could be an older opensim server that sends assets in a line instead of parallel i don't know
[11:56 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: but that's enough on that from me :)
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looks like Rider found another keyboard and spammed LSL with new junk again. More potentially dangerous things handled by scripts, ugh
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a Zeta user?
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL monkey
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ohhh... that kind of junk lol
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: yup
[11:58 AM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: uggh
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now to wait 4 months for proper documentation before even attempting to implement that, not that I really want to anyways
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of stuff lately potential security problems even with permissions
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One bad actor and a careless person and gone is your parcel in this case, great job
[12:00 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: hmmm
[12:00 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: that sounds bad
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh, a land parcel lsl thing?
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: llSetParcelForSale
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That sounds crazy complicated
[12:00 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: wow not an ossl function either huh
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not sure what the advantage is having that lsl function versus just doing it manually
[12:02 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks all!
[12:02 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: well armchair real estate barron
[12:02 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[12:03 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: maybe
[12:03 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: they have 1000 regions to sell
[12:04 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: like that anshe chung person in sl i guess?
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Could make sense in SL, but in OS?
[12:04 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i agree
[12:04 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: it doesn't to me
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent do you have 1000 cheap parcels for sale in Zeta? (jk)
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: "Rez this box, you get a gift" *sets parcel for sale and sends IM* *box sender teleports over, buys parcel, bye bye parcel*
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause we all know most don't really read the popups for permissions anyways
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Seems that should have a dialog confirtmation
[12:07 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: maybe someone is doing that million regions thing like the million pixels guy around year 2000
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and selling them?
[12:07 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: you get 16sqm and put your prim on it
[12:07 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: lol
[12:07 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: i'm joking
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maptile art exhibit
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: like ascii art
[12:08 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: oh yes
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We are ten past so if no one has anything urgent I'll call to a close
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out all... Have a great week
[12:10 PM] Fiona.Sweet @hg.holoneon.com: thanks Vincent and Ubit and all
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thank you everyone, hope you have a great week
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-01-27

2026-01-27T20:11:01Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Low attendance at the moment...."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Low attendance at the moment. I wonder if the winter storms have anything to do with it.
[11:03 AM] Joe Magarac: Hi all. Just checking in, but can't stay too long.
[11:03 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm still working on that region impostor thing. Results soon. Code here: https://github.com/John-Nagle/maptools
[11:04 AM] Joe Magarac: Takes way too much web server machinery to make it go.
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I keep telling you it's a waste of effort, but you do you
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: It looks kind of cool in SL. In OS, mainland isn't big enough.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, any news on the crashes?
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: No crashes since I updated to the lates code, with all the new socket stuff
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: nice horse
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: No way to tell if the offending request actually came in
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap code change hides it
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But if that crash never happens again its fine with me
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Running release code as a honeypot for it looks like still running so I must not be on the target list
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If I wanted to try to capture it I would need to use the build from Dec 8 or before
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code changes..
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: tehy where mostly about mantis 9230
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: in same cases, with recent code changes some prim inventoiry itens where not saved
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: saves in region db i mean
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially in the unlink case
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It does explain why I saw a script go missing, but the trouble with linking and unlinking continues to be a difficult nut to crack
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: well still is spargetti code
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: and inventory thread lock is also not nice
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is not the right way to use upgradable locks
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly that bad lock code is used all over maybe also on modules done by others
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing should actually dive in the inventory directly
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The part about the scene and db going out of sync troubles me. It may only be things left behind that were meant to be removed anyways, but that doesn't meant it can't be problematic
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: should only use the code in sop inventory api
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The most direct approach would be linking and unlinking be directly dependent on db write, but that would be slow and lock the scene
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: well out of sync is a must to reduce saves
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: you do not want to save a SOG on every frame
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: sopping the region doing it..
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: so desync is a must
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: as long ther is no loss
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There are some use cases where unlinking is part of their normal use and they depend on prim contents immediastely
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: and currently loss mostly only happens if you close the region not doing shutdown or backup comands
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: prim contents are on region
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Like for example, "burning an effigy" where a script delinks prims one at a time and the unlinked prim's script makes it go physics and changes particles
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: we are talking about saving into the region DB
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crux of the issue is that save doesn't check for "is to be deleted" or the sop straight up doesn't have anything to signal that deletion so it just skips removal from the db
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That might be an expreme case but its a popular one at the Groovyverse grid
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fear in order to resolve that even more variables needed and routines to check them, just making every heavier and heavier
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it needs to be async.. just with no holes ( except the need to run backup or shutdown )
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't had the time or head space to look, but I'm sure there is way to do that, just the part of being clever about it and not making even more of a mess might be a bit difficult
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: async but with triggers to make some things hapen faster?
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mostly just that it remembers to do certain things
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The issue at the moment is that deletions are skipped
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: cuga i say again.. it is save changes to DB
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: region db in this case
[11:19 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that a problem?
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: region state is updated in time
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: so all see teh cahnges etc
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( except on delete where prim collision stay active for a while )
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: nothing special on this
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is working so far
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: this last issue was added a few months ago with the changes to try to reduce unnecessary writes to the DB
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: a missinf call to flag the need to save on on case
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: now if there are cases where things stay on db.. well something to debug and fix
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Check mantis 9228 if you want to know what's happening in detail. Short version is that backup routine seems to skip certain deletions when unlink is involved leading to fresh boot from db data to put those objects back. It's writing to disk the change of the root prim, but not the links being removed as I think it just doesn't keep track of that deletion properly. If you don't instantly delete them then the changed link status gets written first after which deletion works fine. It's when that link status is skipped and the scene directly deletes them the data goes out of sync
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's lacking the "this was unlinked" when doing deletes so it never finds the correct thing to remove
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I suspect this problem has been around for a long time
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact unlink does delete the linkset that lost prims
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and does it sync
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: a bad thing to change on TODO one day
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: since the objects are marked dirty, they are saved back a bit later
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wrote a routine to compare the db and scene and it does detect the problem, so now I gotta figure out how to get it back into sync, but I think that'll require a new var to track that additional status, which ideally I don't want to add
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: teh first thing obj delete code does is to take objkects out of automatic back..
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: sure race conditons on multitask are not rare.. and it is possible there is one somewhere
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway... region data store does need a deep change
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: current sure has issues and does not scale well
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: but it is (almost ?) working
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have been testing that new primitems routine for two months now and so far it looks to be working well. First thought that script missing was my fault and it kinda is, but at least seems unrelated to primitems themselves
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still not the ideal solution and a true delete routine is still a better option than rewrite on all changes, but small steps
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i do not want to read every item back to detect changes
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Maybe the new primitems routine will rduce DB activity enough you ca do more with the delete thing?
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: brb, seeing 10-second chat lag
[11:31 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sure, Cuga
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: instead the inventory code needs to trak those changes
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: as it does better now
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: another reason for all the direct access to prim inventory may need to be only via its api.. not direct scans as we still do in lsl etc
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly needs a better approach to doing the tasks it needs to perform rather than crawling things and detecting changes it should just make the required change directly yeah
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess teh flag Hasgroupchanged needs to be a bit field tellin what major block did change, not just a blind bool
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The has inventory changed too in that sense
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: like already partially did on the need to send updates to user
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But should be a direct api call to add, remove, update and whatever else it needs to do
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: those sued to be used just as a bool.. all or nothing
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: not some cases state what changed
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( no idea why we are having chat lag grrr )
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In a sense it needs to be a queue of things to do that it can do async on the db while the scene keeps direct track of it so shutdown just flushes the changes to disk
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: no no need for a queue
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No not directly, but via the update types
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: queues will make GC get mad and eat all your ram
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A pseudo queue
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: An item existing with the flag "to be deleted" basically
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: kinfa for now prims get into 3 dbs..
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: shapes db, inventory db and rest db :)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least thsoe 3 should have flags
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: as is a change on inv will for store of every thing
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: only inv has own flag now
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: but this changes are a pain and error prone :(
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well it currently also nukes everything and writes all the items again, which is certainly worse than reading, comparing to scene and only writing changes, but technically also not the way you are meant to do it
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to take small steps and test yeah :)
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: well save all may cost almost same as save just one parameter
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: actually
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: just more wasted bandwith
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's the disks that are killed by the writing, when it deletes all prim items and writes them all again
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: but most dbs only read and store entire rows
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This also creates race conditions as the backup process due to delete all and write all taking so long that the scene sets another change so when it gets to the end it has more changes to write yet
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It keeps writing the same things over and over
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see that with some pmac stuff, backup command taking 20+ minutes
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well good thing all os do caceh disk operations also :)
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( so their store is also async and you may lose data if you do not do shutdown )
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing that to reserve grid coordinates... there actually is a token based reservation system already kinda built into that, it may not work seeing as the registration currently has no way to send that, seems that part was never written, but grid service has the validation code for that
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that hard to rewrite that slightly and make a reservation system with tokens in regions ini
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The token field in db already exists
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: i kinda lost the issue transition :)
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sorry, I need to run, RL
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Internet is unhappy today huh, my last messages all came in out of order
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You'll need to start numbering them. ;)
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news I pretty much finished the hypergrid stats page: https://operations.zetamex.com/grid_stats Unless someone has an idea what else to add
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: cookies to get users?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: well most grids are for adults only
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles, feeling her seat rise and fall
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Dino crossing
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: byt guess all others will lose french kids soon
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel no idea if france will consider sl and a opensim as social media
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: or australia
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have direct messaging and open chats so... ofcom already wants all the uk folks out of it
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: adults need cookies too
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wow, Tampa, that is a lot of work
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: man watch that diabetes
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really, it's just very basic code
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Are the hours grid up time?
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On the main page it's how many hours of stats are reported, the uptime is in the known grids list
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In percentage since they became known to the system
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's all done hourly so you take the join date and availability percentage to get a rough hour number. I could add the actual count in there somewhere
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://operations.zetamex.com/grid_stats?stat=known-available#
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a lot of stats for a lot of grids. One minor formatting comment. Should the % numbers all be on the second line? Currently the second and third % are on the first line with the stats hours.
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure the tow columns on that stats page is a good idea
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: think one grid per line whould be more readable
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Depending on your monitor resolution it may look weird, it's a bit of a pain to get this dynamically scaled
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah, yuo mean displaying 3 columns of grids
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: moving to one grid per row
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are nearly 5000 grids, that would be one long page
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, thought so *grins*
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I figured it out once I saw it compressing in the grid columns 2 and 3
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The number of columns on that page depends on your screen width. I'm seeing 3 columns.
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: same here
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok its 3
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm odd entries for osgrid there also ?
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's cause they have not been reporting stats for that long
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only started a few weeks ago
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, still updating
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great work, Tampa
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel guess page should tell viewers do do one region per row
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: browsers
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I only have 1920x1080 so on 4k it may look a bit funky
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks for the hard work, Tampa
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ooh, I'm having a wee bit of chat lag, too
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: looks fine here
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Formatting the data and making it scale dynamically clashes at times
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Cuga, you are not alone
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I see a search bar in the top left corner of my screen. It is in the way of the text behind it.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: understandable
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ctrl + mouse wheel scale it down slightly and it should be all visible
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's cause the search is stickied at the top, can't make that aware of the other elements
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: A sad statistic for osgrid. 157,000 or so registered users and less than 4,000 active users.
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I like it there...easy to find
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( rl calls)
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( cya next week )
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: see you next week
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Andrew! Take care, everyone
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect some grids suffer from bot registrations as there are some that have similar weird numbers
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, bye Lyr
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks, Tampa!
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great week!
</pre>

InterestManagement/de

2026-01-24T09:17:26Z

Manni: Created page with "{{Quicklinks|InterestManagement}} '''InterestManagement''' ist ein Subsystem in OpenSimulator (OpenSim), das die Priorisierung und Steuerung von Aktualisierungen (Updates..."

{{Quicklinks|InterestManagement}}

'''InterestManagement''' ist ein Subsystem in [[OpenSimulator]] (OpenSim), das die Priorisierung und Steuerung von Aktualisierungen (Updates) für [[Avatar]]e und Objekte zwischen Server und Client übernimmt. Es wird hauptsächlich über den Konfigurationsabschnitt <code>[InterestManagement]</code> gesteuert und dient dazu, [[Bandbreite]] und [[CPU]]-Last effizient zu verteilen.

== Konfiguration ==
Die Einstellungen für das InterestManagement erfolgen in der <code>OpenSim.ini</code> oder <code>OpenSimDefaults.ini</code>. Die folgenden Parameter sind im Abschnitt <code>[InterestManagement]</code> verfügbar:

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Parameter
! Beschreibung
! Werte / Bemerkung
|-
| <code>UpdatePrioritizationScheme</code>
| Legt das Schema zur Priorisierung von Updates fest.
| Mögliche Werte:
* <code>BestAvatarResponsiveness</code>
* <code>SimpleAngularDistance</code> (intensiver für die CPU)
|-
| <code>ReprioritizationEnabled</code>
| Aktiviert die regelmäßige Neusortierung (Repriorisierung) der Update-Prioritäten.
| <code>true</code> oder <code>false</code>
|-
| <code>ReprioritizationInterval</code>
| Das Zeitintervall (in Millisekunden) zwischen den Neusortierungen.
| Zahl (in ms)
|-
| <code>RootReprioritizationDistance</code>
| Die Distanzschwelle, ab der die Priorität von Root-Avataren (Hauptavataren) neu berechnet wird.
| Zahl (Entfernung)
|-
| <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code>
| Wenn aktiviert, werden Objekt-Updates außerhalb der Sichtweite nicht an den Client gesendet.
| <code>true</code> oder <code>false</code> – Spart Bandbreite, erhöht aber die CPU-Last.
|-
| <code>RootTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
| Sendet nur jedes n-te kompakte ("Terse") Update für Avatare innerhalb derselben Region.
| Zahl (0 = immer senden)
|-
| <code>ChildTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
| Sendet nur jedes n-te kompakte ("Terse") Update für Avatare in anderen Regionen (z.B. Nachbarregionen).
| Zahl (0 = immer senden)
|}

Diese Optionen ermöglichen eine Feinabstimmung, wie häufig und unter welchen Bedingungen Clients über Zustandsänderungen von Objekten und Avataren informiert werden.

== Implementierung in Scene.cs ==
Der zentrale Code für das InterestManagement befindet sich in der Datei <code>Scene.cs</code>. Dabei wird jedoch nicht die vollständige in der INI-Datei dokumentierte Parameterliste ausgewertet.

Folgende Einstellungen werden in <code>Scene.cs</code> tatsächlich gelesen und verwendet:
* <code>UpdatePrioritizationScheme</code>
* <code>ReprioritizationEnabled</code>
* <code>ReprioritizationInterval</code>
* <code>RootReprioritizationDistance</code>
* <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code>

Die folgenden, in der Konfigurationsdatei dokumentierten Parameter werden in <code>Scene.cs</code> '''nicht''' ausgewertet und haben dort keine direkte Wirkung:
* <code>ChildReprioritizationDistance</code>
* <code>RootTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
* <code>ChildTerseUpdatePeriod</code>

Ihr Einfluss auf das System ist nur gegeben, wenn sie an anderer Stelle im OpenSimulator-Quellcode verarbeitet werden.

== Zweck und Funktionsweise ==
Das InterestManagement-System filtert und priorisiert die an die Clients zu sendenden Daten. Ziel ist es, die Netzwerklast zu minimieren und die Serverperformance zu optimieren, ohne die subjektive Benutzererfahrung (z.B. Reaktionsfähigkeit der Avatare) wesentlich zu beeinträchtigen. Beispielsweise sorgt <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code> dafür, dass unsichtbare Objekte keine Updates generieren, während die Priorisierungsschemata bestimmen, welche Objekte oder Avatare zuerst aktualisiert werden.

== Siehe auch ==
* [[OpenSimulator]]
* [[Konfigurationsdatei]]
* [[Scene Graph]]

[[Kategorie:OpenSimulator]]
[[Kategorie:Netzwerk]]
[[Kategorie:Server-Technik]]

InterestManagement

2026-01-24T09:15:26Z

Manni:

{{Quicklinks|InterestManagement}}

'''InterestManagement''' is a subsystem in [[OpenSimulator]] (OpenSim) that manages the prioritization and control of updates for [[Avatar]]s and objects between the server and client. It is primarily configured via the <code>[InterestManagement]</code> section and serves to efficiently distribute [[bandwidth]] and [[CPU]] load.

== Configuration ==
InterestManagement settings are located in the <code>OpenSim.ini</code> or <code>OpenSimDefaults.ini</code> file. The following parameters are available in the <code>[InterestManagement]</code> section:

{| class="wikitable"
|-
! Parameter
! Description
! Values / Notes
|-
| <code>UpdatePrioritizationScheme</code>
| Sets the scheme for prioritizing updates.
| Possible values:
* <code>BestAvatarResponsiveness</code>
* <code>SimpleAngularDistance</code> (more CPU intensive)
|-
| <code>ReprioritizationEnabled</code>
| Enables regular re-prioritization of update priorities.
| <code>true</code> or <code>false</code>
|-
| <code>ReprioritizationInterval</code>
| Time interval (in milliseconds) between re-prioritization runs.
| Number (in ms)
|-
| <code>RootReprioritizationDistance</code>
| Distance threshold for re-prioritizing root (main) avatars.
| Number (distance)
|-
| <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code>
| If enabled, object updates outside the view distance are not sent to the client.
| <code>true</code> or <code>false</code> – Saves bandwidth but increases CPU load.
|-
| <code>RootTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
| Only every nth compact ("terse") update is sent for avatars within the same region.
| Number (0 = always send)
|-
| <code>ChildTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
| Only every nth compact ("terse") update is sent for avatars in other regions (e.g., neighboring regions).
| Number (0 = always send)
|}

These options allow fine-tuning of how often and under what conditions clients are informed about state changes of objects and avatars.

== Implementation in Scene.cs ==
The core code for InterestManagement is located in the <code>Scene.cs</code> file. However, it does not evaluate the complete list of parameters documented in the INI file.

The following settings are actually read and used in <code>Scene.cs</code>:
* <code>UpdatePrioritizationScheme</code>
* <code>ReprioritizationEnabled</code>
* <code>ReprioritizationInterval</code>
* <code>RootReprioritizationDistance</code>
* <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code>

The following parameters, documented in the configuration file, are '''not''' evaluated in <code>Scene.cs</code> and have no direct effect there:
* <code>ChildReprioritizationDistance</code>
* <code>RootTerseUpdatePeriod</code>
* <code>ChildTerseUpdatePeriod</code>

Their influence on the system only exists if they are processed elsewhere in the OpenSimulator source code.

== Purpose and Function ==
The InterestManagement system filters and prioritizes data sent to clients. Its goal is to minimize network load and optimize server performance without significantly degrading the subjective user experience (e.g., avatar responsiveness). For example, <code>ObjectsCullingByDistance</code> ensures that invisible objects do not generate updates, while prioritization schemes determine which objects or avatars are updated first.

== See also ==
* [[OpenSimulator]]
* [[Configuration file]]
* [[Scene Graph]]

[[Category:OpenSimulator]]
[[Category:Networking]]
[[Category:Server technology]]

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-01-20

2026-01-20T20:07:20Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:02 AM] Cug..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi *waves
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was unable to be here last week as I was tied up providing some tech support on a work project.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was out traveling
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You didn't miss anything :)
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice seeing everyone back here.
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had two commits since last week
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: d
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just noticing there was some activity but not much.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: osNpcPlayAnimation now plays uuids directly, mantis request that one
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just curious, can you do that with llPlayAnimation
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No, I suspect for some security thing that requires it to be in the inventory of the prim
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It kinda makes sense to omit this for npcs, much less danger
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hiya Cuga and Andrew, heya Gavin!
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hey Lyr :)
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you, Jagga
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: pardon my afk-ness
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You are in the wrong chair, Lyr. ;)
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr and Happy New Year
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Happy New Year!
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, new year, decided I'd try hopping around
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The other commit was a compiler thing, apparently struggled with a potentially ambiguous declaration, which is fascinating
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and settles down
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not the biggest fan of some of the syntax sugar as of late, readability nightmare
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: [list - 1] being last I kinda get but [.. list] is... huh, not very descriptive imo
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This case was more type of array but yeah
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Very little information out there why that broke in the first place, cause was apparently fixed or at least meant to be
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's Microslop so who knows, they probably don't
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe they are rewriting C# in Rust
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: play animation on avatars is limited to animations on the prim inv
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: or startdart animations known by viewers
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: stardard or 'internal'
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: even those need to use names not uuids
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: never understood what the fuss was about uuids, but *shtugs*
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: shrugs
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is a security thing requiring things to be on inventory cause you don't want your avatar randomly forced into animations you didn't consent to
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: can be uuids
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: NPCs on the other hand... can't consent or rather can't refuse >:D
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well it is also a copyright issue if you have an economy, you don't want anyone to be able to just play your anims
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for free
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if you make them FP, is same as others using textures witjh UUID. Same issue
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Copy/modify/transfer perms can be set for anims just like textures
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FP can still be sold as that and be in the inventory of a creator, who sells it with reduced permissions
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I don't see the difference
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I don't like changes like this for that reason
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Same issue for Textures
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but uuids are allowed there
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, Ubit says can use uuids?
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: should check the permissions on them (probably does)
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean owner and creator
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: duuhh my vs version 147.14.19 tells the version is no longer supported and that i need to install 17.14
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: damm microslop
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you want more security generally turning off ossl is a good start, most functions don't check much permission wise, hence their restrictions by default
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that's a fundamental debate that'll take days
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It makes sense for npc, but probably not for avatar animations
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then again I still see force animation functions in use rather than doing the little extra runtime perm check
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't see the difference
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: npcs also have a creator
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and if the creator don't have proper permissions for the anim, then the npc shall not be allowed to use it
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: again with reference to having an economy and not just support the free shit crowd
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Animation reference by asset uuid isn't required to have creator or ownership information, fetching that is extra work. I'm no fan of that crowd myself, but this is mostly harmless and by default only available to those that would have ways to bypass whatever you threw at it anyways
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: no checks on animation perms on npcs
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there you have it
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You mean "allow animation" dialog bypass or copy/mod/transfer perms of anim?
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact that could not work outside the prim inv
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: because assets have no permissions
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean for npcs
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean the ncp shall not have more or other permission to use and access content than the ncp creator
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: and play animation is not mod/copy/transfer
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: how could one check permissions on play ??
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the naimation must be read from somewhere
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: not letting others around see the animation, unless full perms ?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that usefull to play a animation that only owner sees
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would work the same as if you had an old fashion animation override
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: we send assets to all viewers supposed to see them
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So if you know the uuis of someone else's animation that's set to no transfer, for example, could you play it with npc but not with real avatar?
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: imagine permissions to see textures on prims also
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets are not required to have ownership information, so you'd have to fetch the NPC owner and check their inventory if they have the animation in there, that's a heavy call to make since it has to call inventory. If you play a lot of animations that would generate some load. Those that can spawn NPCs generally have estate rights anyways, so most security has already flown out the window
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc to use a uuid you need to know it..
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK so basically god mode for animation by the NPC creator
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: assume they are estate so thats ok
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: what god mode?
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is no god mode
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You can play uuids of animations you would otherwise not be able to access
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you can use the uuid uncontrolled you can walk into a store selling animations, copy the uuid and start using the anims in the npcs you create
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said you do need to know its UUID
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is protected (by viewers )
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You cannot copy the uuid of a animation you don't already own
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: and same as for textures or sounds etc
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except many people knows how to work around that
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well thats ll flaw
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that level they would just copy the animation rather than note down the uuid
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can-t do much without breaking compatibility
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK so you can try with uuid but it won;t play if the copy/mod/transfer perms don't allow
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ll also assumes you can-t get things out of viewer cache
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that correct?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: again the uuid is a asset uuid, assets have no permissions
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, the change was just adding a way for npc to play an animation directly via uuid, nothing else was changed. All other animation functions still work the same way
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is making it like textureanim etc
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks for clarifying Vincent
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am just fascinated by this factoid. Need to go back and try some stuff
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: or llPlaySound
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: that can also play things directly from assets service
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok ?
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok :)
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: gut even assets has an CreatorID field
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but*
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc at sl to know a asset uuid allowys you to fecth it from their assets services directly with even just edge
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that each on normal opensim grids or regions
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets are not required to have any information on create or owner, that's optional metadata
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr i meant not that easy
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well the metadata we have on that is a old mistake
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: but viewers to add creator info on same assets
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: creatorID manadatory would be great because it would make it possible to get rid of all kinds of random assets that fills up the table from HV visitors
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: do..
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: HG
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically at least the attachment ones should be marked temporary already.... if that actually functions I don't know
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( meshes have creator info added by viewers on upload )
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a much bigger discussion once you add the part of grids going offline and such, huge mess
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: on hg arrival the assets ar copied to locla grid assets
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: notmif you run with a central db
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In this case though at least adding this capability is not really any more permissive than it already is giving what access level is required for NPCs in the first place, they'd be able to force permissions anyways. Locking things down for commerce is a grid level decision that requires code changes already if you want to get a totally locked experience
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: to avoid having to fecth them on all tps
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had some HG visitor with a very big inventory visiting and he alone added over 5 GB of crap to the asset table
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It should mark the attachments packaged in the appearance serialization as temporary, but I see those sticking around regardless of that so might just be broken or disabled
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: inventory is not copied
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: only what is on attachments etc
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Don't they go into a separate table?
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, part of that is travel data
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: quite a few attachments then
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: console was spewing folder copies for an hour after he left
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: or the user does rez ( but those stay on region only )
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rest is taken from the serialized appearance, much like what you see in the avatars table
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It only sends over what is needed to display the avatar to others on the region
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: all the traveler junk should go into the hg tables
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets have to sit somewhere, stuffing them into db is bad
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff suitcase is a mess already
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its a godsend
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, I like it, too
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: compared to life without it
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might have been from a grid not supporting suitcase because everything was copied over
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: theres only one I know about :)
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: no it is not copied, a;lready told that
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how come the asset table grew with 5 GB from this visitor alone?
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could actually be that they were using suitcase and just stuffed a copy of their entire inventory in there
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea..
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: could be Vincent
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea what he did etc
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: or scripts
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well things days guess 5g on attachments is possible :)
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: all 2k textures etc
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: suitcase seems like a good idea on paper and then they forget something, have to go back and come over again, adding stress to the region each time. Some stick loads of stuff in there to not have to go back so the amount of stuff copied might be more than just using open inventory
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Here's a box of every mesh I ever built"
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I uploaded a 198mb 4k texture the other day so yeah assets are gonna go brrrrr going forward
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But speaking of assets I got a question
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw anyone tested that npc play animation ?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( remember that some older scripts use osplayanimation also on npcs
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: that will only look for uuids ( as a name ) in prim inv or internal anims
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: like llplay...
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets currently sent via udp to viewer? Not via http? http is for the direct asset server to viewer?
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: depends on viewers
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: most are now http
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: some viewers still want udp
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: like script sources
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Do you know what FS uses in regards to meshes?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc http at sl it totally open like osgrid
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: you know the uuid, you can get it
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: meshes are http only
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: there used to be a udp fallback... guess removed
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Interesting. I have seen some meshes failing to render properly and TJ was wondering if that was udp packet loss causing that
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: they where to remove all udp assets
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they are http then it must be something else causing the render failure
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: then noticed that http is not safe
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: their http
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: many reasons for reander fail
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: i once gave them a fix for on case
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: one..
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have only seen failures with specific meshes as well, so it could be down to corruption there, but it is strange as it seems random
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Usually teleport out and back in fixes it, so points to viewer issue
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: viwers had a lot of issues like that in time
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: a lot of stars need to be aligned for render to work :)
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did offer a goat sacrifice, but apparently I'm no longer allowed into the petting zoo...
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: pfff you need to use buffalos at least
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go guys
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Take care Gavin
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah same here
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: any last issue for today ?
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will see you next week if this Greenland madness have blow up in our faces
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have not
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: pff dont remember that
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: el presidente is crying every hour about not getting the nobel peace prize from Norwway
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well he got the medal
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Take care
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: hi dino.. good boy good boy
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me pokes the dinosaur
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just at the right time
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks! I must dash *waves* Have a lovely week!
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: you 2 :)
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-01-13

2026-01-13T20:33:23Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hello everyone [11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We ..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hello everyone
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some commits this week and apparently just now
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: who is everyone?
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code changes...
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: there was one at least
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: a fix to IllInsertString adding missing upper limit check on index argument
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: also a small change on http accept, moving a line of code inside the try /catch section
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: set of tcp no delay could fail bc reasons, killing the service for all
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The socket error happened again last night at 3 am. On the Dec 8 build with the original null socket check.
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavin says hi.. he is also traveling
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did screen catch anything Cuga?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: well with this change it sill be silent ignored.. we hope
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was not running screen or tcpdump because last week I convinced myself it wasn;t happening anymore
[11:15 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It hasn;t happened for a month
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: and just before the meeting i did push some code in part from vincent, fixing a problem on grid stats regions count
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still have the honeypot running so maybe it caught it, yes yes still haven't replayed it, been busy with other things :S
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I'm going to update to the latest today, run screen and tcp dump for the next 2 weeks
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: it did not work for standalones
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc now it may not work for all.. details :)
[11:16 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: What did not work for standalones?
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The thing I gave you a patch for
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: grid stats
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh yes, latest patch good
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i changed it, ofc
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: In master now?
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: <osgithub> dotnet compile: success
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh already made a change...
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: removed a silly line with one spaces :)
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: err only spaces
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: so waht news do you hace about opensimulator ? :)
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: err ...have...
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Updated: https://operations.zetamex.com/grid_stats to include time, a search and cleaned it up a bit
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got some reports of objects not loading in. Apparently LL made a "server side fix" for that which is... great, but it seems either renderer or object cache related
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to keep an eye if that keeps happening, could be something on OpenSim end not sending things, though that seems more a bandaid than a fix
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had some trouble with the link and unlink routines eating a script. The async nature of that has been causing glitches between scene and db data being out of sync for a while now
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure how it ate the script, but I suspect changes to the primitems storing routine unearthed how broken the link routine actually is
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Else why would it have eaten the script
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: the changes i didnt merge?
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes the db routine part
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well link code does not change prim contents...
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: so no idea
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think that ultimately ate the script as it didn't find the right place to put the script in or something, though not sure how the id would have changed either
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It has been a problem either way. Usually if I place a linkset from inventory, unlink a part, link the rest and take it into inventory. Next time I clear the region cache out I either find the linkset or the unlinked part still on the region
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The way it links and writes to db are async so taking into inventory breaks that path and it deletes it from scene, but keeps the db record
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can watch it make the entry in the db and then forget to delete it when the inventory take comes in before it has a chance to query the scene for the change
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Never had that eat a script though, so that's worrying
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: This is on the build with the reduced DB activity?
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Or master?
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: master + primitems routine that I changed a few weeks ago
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The read first write later type thing
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Think the issue is related to primitems change?
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think it eating the script is, but the underlying cause is more the link routine being async from writing to db
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: bummer
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like if you take something into inventory before the region notices the objects have been linked it writes the objects to db, but the scene removes them
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So scene is empty, but db still has the objects. When you then remove the region cache via binary change it loads them from db and they appear again
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: but then sets the need to anothe write
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc that flag is set at end
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways mulitiasking is a fun thing
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: but we never had missing scrips
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said the link process does not change prim contents
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you run the backup command after every action it doesn't break, but if you leave it to the region to write things, because it doesn't do that the moment you make a change to the scene it might go out of sync
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: so if the prim and its contents are saved they should be there
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah I'm not sure how it managed to eat the script. I suspect it is the routine, but I can't figure out how since the dependency is the object uuid, which should remain the same
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's just a more severe symptom of the underlying issue though
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: and on link/unlik prims are not deleted.. only the linkset
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: they just get a new parent
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: well of db does silly deletes.. bc reasons...
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess more debug is needed on that
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's relatively easy to reproduce. On an empty region you can easily see it by watching the prims table. Rezz linkset from inventory. Unlink. Delete one part. Link everything. Take linkset back into inventory and delete the unlinked part. Scene is now empty, but db still shows things
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: assuming it is easy to repo
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: delete is also async
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: and can take ages because delete is a take
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't know how making that synchronous would end up in terms of performance, probably not great
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah nsty
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Leaving stuff is one thing, but what that might cause and it somehow managing to eat a script, that's scary
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to try and repro that script eating and see if the primitems routine is to blame
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: delete does send to viewers that the linkset was deleted to they delete it
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: but it even stays in region colliding
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: until the take to inventory ends
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: so delete adds its own worms to unlink/link tests
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In this case the scene data does have it removed, but it sticks in the db, which is then masked by caches so even a region restart doesn't make it show up again
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The region cache itself has to run out to fetch db data which then makes it pop up again
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i tested delete and never seem prims show up after restart
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: * with proper shutdown ofc )
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh I saw that recently on my region
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stuff I deleted was sitting there
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm but it may happen if the take was still in proguess
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: of if it failed
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Better for something not to delete than something to disappear that shouldn't
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: well when i do really want to delete a object i jsut set it to temp
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have started to wait a couple more seconds on unlink and link operations or straight up run backup command in between for larger linksets, but when it ate the script that was just 30 parts
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We also know users have no patience so it is odd this hasn't come up more or they just never report it
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no changes on that code in years
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( except the inv )
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I've seen the issue sporatically for years. But its not a big deal for me
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me nods and grins
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think the more other stuff is changed and runs faster the more we unearth these long standing timing and async issues
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Big engine in car, no brakes to stop kinda thing
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and more ram with face ECC etc
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: fake
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah the preformance improvement is huge, so if not extra bugs, not a show stopper
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( or none )
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ddr5 is local ECC only, but you cant buy it now anyways )
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: is -> has
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I will investigate more and write up a proper mantis for it, perhaps with all the performance increase some async stuff no longer needs to be async to be fast. I rather have linking take two seconds to actually show as linked knowing I won't find random stuff next time I come back home :)
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: but don-t think that is the issue
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: juse some fun bugs dancing around
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: all on that needs to be async
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( db updates.. local or remote.. etc )
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really. The routines all schedule db writes marking things as changed. They could be the ones strictly executing them as well. Granted that's not ideal for performance on large linksets, but it becomes a question of what part of the routine ultimately is the most prone to cause the issue
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect it's the linking routines, but it might be delete
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to test that more to figure out how that interacts with each other
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah stop the simulation writing to mysql
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun...
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a question of finding the worst offender and figuring out if it needs to be fully synchronous or if there is a way to mitigate the problem some other way, not fun not fun at all
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we are getting close to end time.. any other issue for this meeting?
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But neither is finding random objects in places that I don't remember putting there, the stupid viewer object cache did that too me one to many times for me to let it just do that you know xD
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: forget the sync..
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: any code that goes out to disk on net must be async
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: disk or..
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Groups isn't
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: at most pseudo sync
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Group info reload halts all other tasks basically
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a mantis on that I think
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I totally agree that it cannot be made to do full sync like that, the db stuff just takes too long, but something needs to be made quicker on cleanup or a faster change somewhere so this doesn't get lost
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well better debug is needed :(
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a complex issue certainly
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: async handling, timing and db, all the big fun things all in one, yay
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: hp lost entire backups of a client bc similar issues
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm think kings college backups.. not sure
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I remember that heh
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: multitaks side effects on a sh script
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have an unrelated issue/question when there's time
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: opps rl is about to call me
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: you can tell it.. we may think about it until next week :)
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well I can reach Tampa in discord
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm looking over the tcpdump logs during normal use of my standalone
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and I see something not right
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: When the server receives a request that includes <methodName>get_server_urls</methodName>
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It returns an xml payload of the server URLs
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But one of them on my site is wrong, it's a Comcast address
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: several of those are set on robust,ini
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am on a standalone
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: well of somewhere on a standalone
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The gatekeeper URI that it reports is not correct, but the IP address shown in the xm does not appear in any of my config files
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: [LoginService] WelcomeMessage = "Welcome, Avatar!" SRV_HomeURI = "${Hypergrid|HomeURI}" SRV_InventoryServerURI = "${Const|BaseURL}:${Const|PublicPort}" SRV_AssetServerURI = "${Const|BaseURL}:${Const|PublicPort}"
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: grep -R "weird IP addres" *
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ....
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: well and what is the entry name?
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Like I said I grepped for the IP address and it does not exist in any of the flat files in my whoile opensim tree
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Could ti be in the database? if so, where?
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: (paste above was from standaloneCommon.ini)
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The server response reports rajal.org:9000 for all the URIs except one
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: what is the service name on that ?
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the server xml payload contains <member><name>SRV_GatekeeperURI</name><value><string>http://73.222.93.33:9000</string></value></member>
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tha is, the data returned from the request, as shown in my tcpdump log
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats a Comcast address, I haven't had Comcast for 8 years!
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its not in any of my config files
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: i dont see that in code
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It must be either in a config file or the db
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: check standalonecommon
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It could be a request to another grid returning that back
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It is a response to a query
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The POST request had:
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah hg users will display odd urls
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><methodCall><methodName>get_server_urls</methodName><params><param><value><struct><member><name>userID</name><value><string>81b3fb03-3444-4a73-bb8b-f57558741520</string></value></member></struct></value></param></params></methodCall>
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it is just a request for grid info correct?
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: server URL info
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: think it is about a user servers
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Send me a full log in discord, I'll have a look in a bit
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ok thanks Vincent
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is per user
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So if one of the URLs is wrong, what table holds that data?
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I can fix
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The gatekeeper URI info that is
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If its not simple answer I'll reach out to Vincent in Discord
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: that is on the ini files not dbs
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats what I thought, which concerns me bc that IP address isn't in there
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: StandaloneCommon.ini: GatekeeperURI = "${Const|BaseURL}:${Const|PublicPort}"
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm some may be stored on user account
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls me
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week :)
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Right, so thats why i'm asking what db table it is in
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Ubit
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I couldn't find it
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: ini files should override for local users
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: but hg is.. hg :)
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya next week :)
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was on Comcast when I set up my grid 10 years ago
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: mb it is stuck somewhere ?
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm just wondering if this could be a cause for some folks to have trouble with their inbound hg
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: mb?
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: maybe
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok cya
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2026-01-06

2026-01-06T20:32:14Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No sign of Lyr online or some of the other regulars that ..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No sign of Lyr online or some of the other regulars that are in my contacts list.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: She may actually be resting for once
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: yes.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh that osg tp is gone
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If no one shows up in a while I don't see much point in sticking around.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb this land has a long auto return
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have someone waiting for some code changes.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: for non goup members
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm used to he a group auto invite thing nearby.. mb i removed it?
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Maybe it got auto returned.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thinking if something worth talking about happened over the week. Only thing I got is I got some regions that somehow stopped showing terrain patches
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have yet to find any error in log though, not sure what's going on there
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just restart them and they are fine again
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect just users making a mess as usual bricking some thread that isn't monitored
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: last issues on that whre viewers wiht 2 much udp bandwidth set for the real gpu anc pu caps
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. and cpu caps...
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: so they droped udp packets
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially ones with terrain patchs
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hm interesting. I did make some changes to kernel behavior on the server end to give it some more performance, maybe that's causing hiccups
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then again, wasn't drastic changes either
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's everyone though, not just specific users, I see it too
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Here comes Lyr
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well long since i saw those issues
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to keep an eye on it and figure out if it is related to anything
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I haven't seen that in like 12 years outside of intentionally breaking it server side
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially after i added a extra lldup slow doewn based on acks
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: but those things seems where packets received and ack by viewer
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: but then droped by viewer
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: udp is a good hint though, if it happens again I'll turn debug on for that
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy new year, Lyr. I was starting to wonder if anyone else was going to show up today.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: happy 2026
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Happy New Year, Andrew
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, first day back at work *chuckles*
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeak bad work
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Slept in last week...was so divine
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Holidays are good for that.
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still got nothing on the side of the crashes Cuga reported, but the honeypot has been collecting a lot of tcp data
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I haven't played that back at an instance yet though
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still trying to figure out how that works so I don't explode something that wasn't meant to explode
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: May have to also set something up for udp logging in case that's somehow the cause
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Network stuff is no fun, too complex for my two braincells
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mantis needs some love I need to get around to that at some point, been lazy with that lately
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No news on libgdiplus from Canonical's side, they seem to be more and more in disarray lately as well
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been thinking about buying one of their subscriptions and then telling them to fix that, but I the probably wouldn't anyways
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The Microslop virus must be spreading to linux
[11:29 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is a new year *smiles*
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I noticed the other day that the wiki doesn't list postgres as supported database, need to fix that too at some point and throw mssql out since I have no clue if that is even still maintained
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was just speaking about you, well the problem you reported
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh the listener killer?
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the dotnet request of death?
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still collecting tcp data so far
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm running tcpdump but it hasn;t happened now in a couple weeks
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If it happens with tcpdump monitoring I'll definitely report what I found
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am also wondering if port 9000 is perhaps not the best choice for a standalone OS instance. Although I don;t know if its any better or worse than other choices
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Do you want to look at one of the console errors from that?
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: why not a good option ?
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent was watching it and thinks it may be riddled with gamer stuff that didn;t exist 10 years ago
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah some games use it for server stuff and so it gets attempts at hacking those
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: nayway no justificatication for a crash
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Want to look at one of the consoles messages from a crash?
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its about 12 lines
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did you catch another crash? Sure yeah definitely
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: No not another, same one I showed you Vincent in Discord
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Tell the gamers we got the port first. ;)
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well they always look the same
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its only about 12 lines, I'll post here
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 15:20:28 - [FLOTSAM ASSET CACHE]: Finished expiring files, heap delta: 111MB. 15:49:56 - [APPLICATION]: + msg Region (root) # Unhandled exception. System.Net.Sockets.SocketException (22): Invalid argument at System.Net.Sockets.Socket.UpdateStatusAfterSocketErrorAndThrowException(SocketError error, Boolean disconnectOnFailure, String callerName) at System.Net.Sockets.Socket.UpdateStatusAfterSocketOptionErrorAndThrowException(SocketError error, String callerName) at OSHttpServer.OSHttpListener.AcceptLoop() in /Users/cuga/opensim/OpenSim/Framework/Servers/HttpServer/OSHttpServer/HttpListener.cs:line 173 at System.Threading.Tasks.Task.<>c.<ThrowAsync>b__128_1(Object state) at System.Threading.QueueUserWorkItemCallback.Execute() at System.Threading.ThreadPoolWorkQueue.Dispatch() at System.Threading.PortableThreadPool.WorkerThread.WorkerThreadStart() at System.Threading.Thread.StartCallback() ./opensim.sh: line 3: 33096 Abort trap: 6 dotnet OpenSim.dll
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it seems "HttpListener.cs:line 173" might be a clue
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but just a guess
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wasn't that one we tried fixing via that null check
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: trap 6 is another piece of data.
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: that source got a change after yr report
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It did happen again
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yes I pushed the update and rebuilt OS
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and rebooted
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and it happened again
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I reported that last week, or was it 2 wks ago
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ~/opensim/ git rev-parse --short HEAD d9ae06f338
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Anyway, I'll continue monitoring
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you do get another crash let me know, maybe tcpdump collected it
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: that line is related to joe :)
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will defnitely
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: code line 173
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what if callerName is null? Is that the fix you added?
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of that is in a try catch, so shouldn't crash in the first place
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It might be a misleading error message
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as they often are
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its been a couple weeks now since the last time it happened. Was happening about once/week on average. Sometimes 2x/week, sometimes less
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: fix was just about possible null socket
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Maybe the hacker causing it is on vaca
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok so what happens if callerName is null?
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves and heads to work
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: smiles and waves to Lyr
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: happy work
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, Being a responsible person in the new year going to work? ;) Bye. See you next week.
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well, I'll continue to montir and let you know if I capture anything
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I guess I'm going to head out, if there's nothing else to discuss today
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't see anyone chatting
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to see what I'll log of this meeting or if at all
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok :)
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Have a good week all, and happy new years! ttyl
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: happy 2026 :)
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: well think rl is calling
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: have a nice week :)
[12:21 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been working during the meeting as someone is waiting on some change. Time to call the meeting to a close (if it will get logged).
[12:21 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-12-16

2025-12-16T20:25:47Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was stuck on a work call so I'm a..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was stuck on a work call so I'm a bit late today.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: An agenda? What's that? ;)
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:06 AM] puff ball: I was stopping to see if there might be anyone here with a good grasp of the agent authentication flow... I'm trying to figure out why my agents are stuck as child agents instead of root agents in the scene.
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, sorry to hear we have some people not feeling well. I hope they will feel better soon.
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks, Andrew
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only commit we had this week was something for Cuga's issue on random traffic nuking his standalone, so hopefully that helped
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Still too early to tell, but no crashes so far
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh that.. i was to tell ho lazy devs where
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It was a weird dotnet crash that took down the.net hTTP server
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been a while that I looked at the whole child and root agent thing myself
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I been meaning too as viewers seem to render less and less regions lately
[11:11 AM] puff ball: I'm sure I'm missing a packet or something, but it's nowhere in the docs or the spec
[11:11 AM] puff ball: I'm just trying to figure out how to go from a login to a root agent in the scene, so I can start rendering objects in the environment...
[11:12 AM] puff ball: I'm able to send chat messages, render terrain and I'm retrieving some objectupdate packets, but I don't receive anything for the environment, and never receive a regionHandshake.
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: less and less regions?
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Neighbor regions
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: puff, what version of Open Simulator are you running?
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: you should only get terrain aftart handshake
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If I recall region handshake somewhat depends on caps or at least only happens if those are all there
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: uint flags = ControllingClient.GetViewerCaps(); if ((flags & (uint)(ViewerFlags.TPBR | ViewerFlags.SentTPBR)) == (uint)ViewerFlags.TPBR) ControllingClient.SendRegionHandshake();
[11:14 AM] puff ball: OpenSim 0.9.3.1
[11:15 AM] puff ball: what do you mean by "all there"? I am requesting the caps, and I'm able to use those... do you mean that I need to send all of the caps?
[11:16 AM] puff ball: I'm only requesting a subset of the caps, like ViewerAsset and a few others
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That I am not sure of, but with OpenSim there is also not all caps in use or rather using the older versions
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets coming from the region and not directly via asset server for example
[11:17 AM] puff ball: hmmm, could you link me to where the code checks for those caps? That might be my missing piece!
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ScenePresence.cs somewhere in SendInitialData() might be good to look at, but I don't really know all that much about it
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Login to your region with Firestorm and note down the log messages, look for those in the code and go back and forth from those, that should give you some idea... it's usually how I solve these conundrums xD
[11:21 AM] puff ball: yeah, that's what I've been trying but I can't seem to find the right logs...!
[11:21 AM] puff ball: is there a way to make OpenSim super verbose, with every packet going in and out ?
[11:21 AM] puff ball: I feel like that would solve all of my problems
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can enable the http debug, which gives you some more data, but only on the http end, not the lludp stuff
[11:22 AM] puff ball: hmmm, that is still pretty useful... Maybe I should just compile an opensim version that logs every packet
[11:22 AM] puff ball: it would probably save me some time
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reading through this it seems to request the viewer caps from the circuitcode so I guess you need to indicate to it that you have all the required caps to elevate to root agent
[11:23 AM] puff ball: !!!!
[11:23 AM] puff ball: do you know which caps are required?
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I posted some code earlier which is part of what it checks for
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: debug http <in|out|all> [<level>] - Turn on http request logging. debug jobengine <start|stop|status|log> - Start, stop, get status or set logging level of the job engine. debug lludp data out <level> <avatar-first-name> <avatar-last-name>" - Turn on debugging for final outgoing data to the given user's client. From the debug options, these are console commands you can try
[11:24 AM] puff ball: !!!!
[11:24 AM] puff ball: this is awesome omg thank you so much
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The GetViewerCaps at the very bottom of LLClientView might be a starting point
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Load up the solution in visual studio to step through code more easily, that's probably the best option to make sense of this... if not for that I'd be totally lost too
[11:26 AM] puff ball: this is awesome, thank you so much! Hopefully this is the missing puzzle piece!
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was hoping Joe would drop by today, he might know a thing or two about this, but you got Gavin, he might be able to dig in as well :)
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good luck with tracking down your issue, puff ball.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The protocol is a bit of a mess
[11:27 AM] puff ball: it is u__u7
[11:28 AM] puff ball: but with good docs maybe it'll be less scary lol
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With good docs some of the nonsense might finally get adjusted too, I think LL even lost overview at this point given how they tend to "implement" things
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Square pegs go into round holes with enough stubborn force
[11:29 AM] puff ball: lmao yeah, hoo boy
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recall when pbr came in there was some adjustment to this caps stuff so it would properly indicate whether it had pbr or not so that's last time I interacted with that side of things
[11:30 AM] puff ball: I know Joe had this figured out, but he can be tough to get in touch with...
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: region caps for a client are generated on reception of usecircuitcode
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: if viewer asks for seeds via http, region will wiat some 30s for that lludp
[11:33 AM] puff ball: !! :0 30 seconds ?
[11:34 AM] puff ball: which lludp?
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: usercircuitcode packet
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: Packet Type: UseCircuitCode
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: so viewer should send that before asking for seeds
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: but since there is no oreder on udp traffic, specially releative to http,,, those 30 are there to help proper order
[11:37 AM] puff ball: ok, so my client sends UseCircuitCode, and then requests ViewerAsset, FetchLibDescendents2, and FetchInventoryDescendents2
[11:37 AM] puff ball: then it sends a complete agentmovementdata
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( opensim will kill you atfer that.. sl may keep the http waitning for ever
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap after getting the seeds, you send complete agentmovementdata
[11:38 AM] puff ball: you're saying the correct flow is to send the CircuitCode packet, wait 30 seconds, and then send the request for the capabilities? Which packets are we waiting for the order of ?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No send within 30 seconds, it's a timeout limit
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: no i said to ask for seeds after usecircuit code...
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: and informmed that region gives a tolerance of 30s for things ot happen
[11:40 AM] puff ball: ohh oh ok.
[11:40 AM] puff ball: so all of those can happen right after the other.
[11:40 AM] puff ball: It must be that I'm sending an incomplete list of capabilities then...
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: complete movement will send you region handshake
[11:41 AM] puff ball: yeah, that's not coming in for some reason
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When in doubt use the "older" caps for things
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: you must answer to to it with handshakereply
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Remember no ais or direct assets via cdn and older profiles etc.
[11:42 AM] puff ball: I have all that hooked up, but I don't seem to ever be getting the region handshake...
[11:43 AM] puff ball: omg, is the handshakereply what promotes it out of a child to a root
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: handshakereplay has critial info like type or state of viewer object cache
[11:44 AM] puff ball: I see, I seee
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: region will not send you objects ( or nothing ) without that
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: nd seeds also include pseuso caps that are actually flags about viewer
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: CompleteMovement and then you need to start sending agent updates, public void CompleteMovement(IClientAPI client, bool openChildAgents) in ScenePresence if I read that correctly
[11:46 AM] puff ball: to be clear, the seeds we're talking about are the XML requests that get us the base URL to retrieve capability endpoint info from ?
[11:47 AM] puff ball: and the pseudo caps aren't endpoints, they're just one way messages from the viewer to the server about the viewer state
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:49 AM] puff ball: OK. it's gotta be that then. I must not be sending a capability that is required in order for RegionHandshakes to be sent
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On region console you should see a log messages regarding new caps agent with a circuit code and path
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm don-t think there is any specific
[11:50 AM] puff ball: I can post my logs here!
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Let me jump in here for a moment. Hold the current conversation as I need to ask a question of everyone before people start departing.
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said if you login with Firestorm and note down what it says on region console you can find a lot of the places it visits during login, from there it's a few steps up and down and you should see some things connecting to each other
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: new caps agent being one of them
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are nine days away from Christmas. Our next meetings would be two days before Christmas and two days before New Years eve and day. Do we want to still meet then or should we take a break for the holidays and reconvene on January 6th?
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I cannot be there next week
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dec 30 is fine
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I know this can be a busy time for some people. Especially those of you with family.
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm flexible
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 23rd is a regular work day, but if no one shows no one shows
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll be right back
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ok. We could skip the 23 as a formal meeting. If anyone shows we can just have more of a social event depending on who shows up but then we have a regular meeting on the 30th.
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anyone else care to weigh in?
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a plan to me
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that's fine
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I missed it, are we meeting?
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are, Cuga. We were just discussing whether to have formal meetings on the 23rd and 30th.
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: just a moment... phone.
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One more thing to report. According to grid_stats we have reached 100k regions now, 269 grids logged
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wb
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If by then you haven't logged another crash then I may setup a honey pot on my end, cause I am curious what's going around trying to exploit game servers
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll pop in on the 23rd and see who shows up, if anyone. I'll wish everyone a Merry Christmas. If I don't see you on the 23rd I'll look forward to seeing you again on the 30th.
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I noticed an increase in things trying to exploit all manners of holes in common software lately, git, wordpress, joomla, woocommerce etc, it's flooding quite a bit
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't surprise me if part of why the wiki is slow is because of that junk
[11:59 AM] puff ball: oof yeah, AI scrapers
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not going to be here next week, so a Merry Christmas to you all
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Could be. I saw some nonsense getting posted in a Discord channel recently.
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Merry Xmas Gavin
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: errr actually caps are no longer generated by usercircui
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have merry holidays Gavin :)
[12:00 PM] puff ball: :0 caps aren't generated there?
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: take care everyone
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Gavin.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: but when region is informed ny grid or other region that the av is on the way
[12:00 PM] puff ball: hmmm, ok
[12:01 PM] puff ball: so then caps wouldn't affect this at all ?
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The phone call I just received is work related. Person forgot that I have a meeting at this time.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: os you can ask for seed when you get the url
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, would you mind finishing the meeting? The main thing is to turn off the chat logger before you leave.
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just turn it off, it doesn't work anyways
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I thought it still did to a point. ok, if that is the case I will do so.
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: perty joe could not come today
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, nah the other box there does the logging now, I just copy it from the site I gave you
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: he had same fights with login on a rust viewer
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Before I leave I will end with my usual final remark.
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Have a safe and happy holiday.
[12:04 PM] puff ball: would posting my server logs help? The last log I get is a complete movement from scene presence, which makes me think I should get the handshake
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, ok. I didn't see the other logger there.
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You need to make it green or make it cover the one that isn't working. :)
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I have to run.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me waves
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Andrew
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are you then sending agent updates?
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think it needs to see you are actually alive, at least there is some code that seems to indicate it checks for agent updates
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out as well. See you next week, or Happy Holidays!
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *and* Happy Holidays :)
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: /me waves and poofs
[12:06 PM] puff ball: I am sending those agent updates, and I am sending them with updated location values, though some of it is stubbed out
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you compare a log from FS login vs. yours then you may find missing log messages you can search in the code, that'd be my approach
[12:07 PM] puff ball: yeah, I tried that but the logs are pretty much the same
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Pastebin both and I'll see if I can find something in code, maybe even the order ends up important
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it gets one thing before it expects another as async as it is some things probably not entirely
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can hop on discord call later and go through the os code with you if you don't want to go through the pain of setting up visual studio for it :)
[12:09 PM] puff ball: https://pastebin.com/irVUmwvG
[12:09 PM] puff ball: god that would be so useful
[12:09 PM] puff ball: are we friends on discord?
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sent a request
[12:11 PM] puff ball: !!! WAIT A MINUTE
[12:11 PM] puff ball: lmao omg
[12:11 PM] puff ball: I didn't realize you were powertampa
[12:15 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[12:15 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: must dash... wishing you all a very Merry Holiday! I may be out next week *grins*
[12:18 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: The AvaCon holiday party is tomorrow at 3pm
[12:19 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: on the AvaCon grid - post conference celebration
[12:19 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hmm or today
[12:19 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm like time traveling..ack, it is today
[12:19 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: when you don't sleep... they all run together
[12:20 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: must go faster *laughs* See you! Happy Holidays!
[12:20 PM] puff ball: goodbye!
</pre>

New Region Modules/de

2025-12-16T09:52:35Z

Manni:

{{Quicklinks|New_Region_Modules}}

= New Region Modules =

'''Hinweis:''' Diese Dokumentation ist für OpenSimulator Version 0.9.3.x aktualisiert, das auf .NET 8.0 Runtime läuft.

= Übersicht =

Diese Seite beschreibt das OpenSimulator Region-Modul-System, das eine flexible, erweiterbare Architektur zum Hinzufügen von Funktionalität zu Regionen bereitstellt. Region-Module ermöglichen es Entwicklern, OpenSim zu erweitern, ohne die Kern-Codebasis zu ändern, und unterstützen dynamisches Laden, Region-Neustarts und Hot-Swapping von Funktionalität.

= Warum neue Region-Module? =

Das vorherige RegionModule-System hatte mehrere Einschränkungen:

* '''Inkonsistente API:''' Der Initialisierungs-Lebenszyklus unterstützte dynamisches Region-Management nicht richtig
* '''Region-Neustart-Probleme:''' Das Hinzufügen oder Entfernen von Regionen zur Laufzeit war problematisch
* '''Unklare Semantik:''' Die Beziehung zwischen ''Initialise'' und ''PostInitialise'' war mehrdeutig

Zum Beispiel, wenn eine neue Region hinzugefügt wurde:
* '''Initialise nicht aufrufen:''' Modul ist für diese Region nicht initialisiert → fehlende Funktionalität
* '''Initialise aufrufen:''' ''PostInitialise'' wurde bereits aufgerufen → inkonsistenter Zustand

Das neue System behebt diese Probleme mit einem gut definierten Lebenszyklus und klarer Semantik für geteilte vs. nicht-geteilte Module.

= Modultypen =

Das neue Region-Modul-System basiert auf drei Interfaces:

== IRegionModuleBase ==

Das Basis-Interface, das alle Region-Module implementieren:

public interface IRegionModuleBase
{
string Name { get; }
Type ReplaceableInterface { get; }
void Initialise(IConfigSource source);
void Close();
void AddRegion(Scene scene);
void RegionLoaded(Scene scene);
void RemoveRegion(Scene scene);
}

=== Interface-Mitglieder ===

* '''Name:''' Gibt den Namen des Moduls zurück (wird für Identifikation und Logging verwendet)
* '''ReplaceableInterface:''' Gibt den Typ des Interfaces zurück, das dieses Modul bereitstellt (für Modul-Ersetzung)
* '''Initialise:''' Wird einmal aufgerufen, wenn das Modul geladen wird
* '''Close:''' Wird aufgerufen, wenn das Modul heruntergefahren wird
* '''AddRegion:''' Wird aufgerufen, wenn eine Region zu diesem Modul hinzugefügt wird
* '''RegionLoaded:''' Wird aufgerufen, nachdem alle Module zu einer Region hinzugefügt wurden
* '''RemoveRegion:''' Wird aufgerufen, wenn eine Region von diesem Modul entfernt wird

== ISharedRegionModule ==

Für Module, die einmal instanziiert werden und über alle Regionen hinweg geteilt werden:

public interface ISharedRegionModule : IRegionModuleBase
{
void PostInitialise();
}

'''Anwendungsfälle:'''
* Zentrale Dienste (Benutzerverwaltung, Asset-Dienste, etc.)
* Regions-übergreifende Funktionalität
* Singleton-Pattern-Anforderungen
* Ressourcenintensive Module, die nur einmal existieren sollten

'''Lebenszyklus:'''
* Eine Instanz wird beim Serverstart erstellt
* ''Initialise'' wird einmal aufgerufen
* ''PostInitialise'' wird aufgerufen, nachdem alle geteilten Module initialisiert sind
* ''AddRegion'' wird für jede Region aufgerufen
* ''RegionLoaded'' wird für jede Region aufgerufen, nachdem alle Module hinzugefügt wurden
* ''RemoveRegion'' wird aufgerufen, wenn Regionen entfernt werden
* ''Close'' wird beim Server-Herunterfahren aufgerufen

== INonSharedRegionModule ==

Für Module, die separat für jede Region instanziiert werden:

public interface INonSharedRegionModule : IRegionModuleBase
{
}

'''Anwendungsfälle:'''
* Regions-spezifische Funktionalität
* Module, die regionsspezifischen Status verwalten
* Module, die Isolation zwischen Regionen benötigen
* Leistungskritische Module, die von Parallelisierung profitieren

'''Lebenszyklus:'''
* Neue Instanz wird für jede Region erstellt
* ''Initialise'' wird aufgerufen, wenn die Modul-Instanz erstellt wird
* ''AddRegion'' wird unmittelbar nach der Initialisierung aufgerufen
* ''RegionLoaded'' wird aufgerufen, nachdem alle Module zur Region hinzugefügt wurden
* ''RemoveRegion'' wird aufgerufen, wenn die Region entfernt wird
* ''Close'' wird nach dem Entfernen der Region aufgerufen

'''Hinweis:''' ''PostInitialise'' existiert nicht für nicht-geteilte Module, weil es keinen garantierten Punkt gibt, an dem alle Instanzen erstellt wurden (neue Regionen können jederzeit hinzugefügt werden).

= Ein Region-Modul erstellen =

== Grundlegende Einrichtung ==

=== 1. Erforderliche Referenzen hinzufügen ===

Fügen Sie die notwendigen Namespaces in Ihren Code ein:

using System;
using Mono.Addins;
using Nini.Config;
using OpenSim.Region.Framework.Interfaces;
using OpenSim.Region.Framework.Scenes;

Ihr Projekt benötigt Referenzen zu:
* Mono.Addins.dll
* Nini.dll
* OpenSim.Region.Framework.dll
* OpenSim.Framework.dll

=== 2. Assembly-Attribute ===

Fügen Sie diese Attribute zu Ihrer Assembly hinzu (typischerweise in Properties/AssemblyInfo.cs oder am Anfang Ihrer Haupt-Moduldatei):

[assembly: Addin("MyModule", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber + ".1")]
[assembly: AddinDependency("OpenSim.Region.Framework", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)]

'''Parameter:'''
* '''Erster Parameter:''' Der eindeutige Name Ihres Moduls
* '''Version:''' An OpenSim-Version gebunden für Kompatibilitätsverfolgung
* '''AddinDependency:''' Deklariert Abhängigkeit von OpenSim.Region.Framework

=== 3. Modul-Klassen-Attribut ===

Markieren Sie Ihre Modul-Klasse mit dem Extension-Attribut:

[Extension(Path = "/OpenSim/RegionModules", NodeName = "RegionModule", Id = "MyModuleId")]
public class MyModule : ISharedRegionModule
{
// Implementierung
}

'''Wichtig:''' Der Path und NodeName müssen genau wie gezeigt sein. Die Id sollte für Ihr Modul eindeutig sein.

== Beispiel: Geteiltes Region-Modul ==

using System;
using System.Reflection;
using log4net;
using Mono.Addins;
using Nini.Config;
using OpenSim.Region.Framework.Interfaces;
using OpenSim.Region.Framework.Scenes;

[assembly: Addin("ExampleSharedModule", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber + ".1")]
[assembly: AddinDependency("OpenSim.Region.Framework", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)]

namespace MyNamespace
{
[Extension(Path = "/OpenSim/RegionModules", NodeName = "RegionModule", Id = "ExampleSharedModule")]
public class ExampleSharedModule : ISharedRegionModule
{
private static readonly ILog m_log = LogManager.GetLogger(MethodBase.GetCurrentMethod().DeclaringType);
private bool m_enabled = false;
private List<Scene> m_scenes = new List<Scene>();

public string Name
{
get { return "ExampleSharedModule"; }
}

public Type ReplaceableInterface
{
get { return null; }
}

public void Initialise(IConfigSource config)
{
IConfig moduleConfig = config.Configs["ExampleModule"];
if (moduleConfig != null)
{
m_enabled = moduleConfig.GetBoolean("Enabled", false);
m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Enabled = {0}", m_enabled);
}
}

public void PostInitialise()
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

m_log.Info("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: PostInitialise aufgerufen");
// Geteilte Ressourcen hier initialisieren
}

public void AddRegion(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

m_scenes.Add(scene);
m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Region {0} hinzugefügt", scene.RegionInfo.RegionName);

// Interfaces registrieren
scene.RegisterModuleInterface<IExampleModule>(this);

// Events anhängen
scene.EventManager.OnNewClient += OnNewClient;
}

public void RegionLoaded(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Region {0} geladen", scene.RegionInfo.RegionName);

// Andere Module hier zugreifen
// var otherModule = scene.RequestModuleInterface<IOtherModule>();
}

public void RemoveRegion(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

m_scenes.Remove(scene);

// Events abhängen
scene.EventManager.OnNewClient -= OnNewClient;

// Interfaces abmelden
scene.UnregisterModuleInterface<IExampleModule>(this);

m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Region {0} entfernt", scene.RegionInfo.RegionName);
}

public void Close()
{
m_log.Info("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Wird heruntergefahren");
// Geteilte Ressourcen aufräumen
}

private void OnNewClient(IClientAPI client)
{
// Neuen Client behandeln
}
}
}

== Beispiel: Nicht-geteiltes Region-Modul ==

[Extension(Path = "/OpenSim/RegionModules", NodeName = "RegionModule", Id = "ExampleNonSharedModule")]
public class ExampleNonSharedModule : INonSharedRegionModule
{
private static readonly ILog m_log = LogManager.GetLogger(MethodBase.GetCurrentMethod().DeclaringType);
private bool m_enabled = false;
private Scene m_scene;

public string Name
{
get { return "ExampleNonSharedModule"; }
}

public Type ReplaceableInterface
{
get { return null; }
}

public void Initialise(IConfigSource config)
{
IConfig moduleConfig = config.Configs["ExampleModule"];
if (moduleConfig != null)
{
m_enabled = moduleConfig.GetBoolean("Enabled", false);
}
}

public void AddRegion(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

m_scene = scene;
m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Zur Region {0} hinzugefügt", scene.RegionInfo.RegionName);

scene.RegisterModuleInterface<IExampleModule>(this);
scene.EventManager.OnFrame += OnFrame;
}

public void RegionLoaded(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

// Andere Module zugreifen
}

public void RemoveRegion(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_enabled)
return;

scene.EventManager.OnFrame -= OnFrame;
scene.UnregisterModuleInterface<IExampleModule>(this);

m_log.InfoFormat("[EXAMPLE MODULE]: Von Region {0} entfernt", scene.RegionInfo.RegionName);
}

public void Close()
{
// Regionsspezifische Ressourcen aufräumen
}

private void OnFrame()
{
// Regionsspezifische Frame-Verarbeitung
}
}

= Modul-Lebenszyklus =

== Server-Start ==

'''1. Modul-Laden'''
* Region-Server startet
* Alle Modul-Klassen werden über Mono.Addins geladen (keine bestimmte Reihenfolge)

'''2. Geteilte Modul-Initialisierung'''
* Für jedes ''ISharedRegionModule'': Eine Instanz wird erstellt, ''Initialise'' wird aufgerufen
* Für jedes ''ISharedRegionModule'': ''PostInitialise'' wird aufgerufen

'''3. Scene-Erstellung (für jede Scene)'''
* Für jedes ''INonSharedRegionModule'': Neue Instanz wird erstellt, ''Initialise'' wird aufgerufen
* Für alle Module (geteilt und nicht-geteilt): ''AddRegion(scene)'' wird aufgerufen
* Module werden mit der Scene verknüpft
* Für alle Module: ''RegionLoaded(scene)'' wird aufgerufen
* An diesem Punkt können Module auf andere Module über ''scene.RequestModuleInterface<T>()'' zugreifen

== Eine Region hinzufügen (Laufzeit) ==

* Für jedes ''INonSharedRegionModule'': Neue Instanz wird erstellt, ''Initialise'' wird aufgerufen
* Für alle Module (geteilt und nicht-geteilt): ''AddRegion(scene)'' wird aufgerufen
* Für alle Module: ''RegionLoaded(scene)'' wird aufgerufen

== Eine Region entfernen ==

* Für alle Module (geteilt und nicht-geteilt): ''RemoveRegion(scene)'' wird aufgerufen
* Nur für ''INonSharedRegionModule''s: ''Close'' wird aufgerufen
* Modul-Referenzen werden aus der Scene entfernt
* ''INonSharedRegionModule''-Instanzen können vom Garbage Collector erfasst werden

'''Hinweis:''' Aufgrund des Verhaltens der .NET/Mono-Laufzeitumgebung werden einige Ressourcen möglicherweise nicht sofort freigegeben, selbst bei ordnungsgemäßer Bereinigung.

== Eine Region neu starten ==

Ein Region-Neustart wird implementiert als:
1. [[#Eine_Region_entfernen|Region entfernen]]
2. [[#Eine_Region_hinzuf.C3.BCgen_.28Laufzeit.29|Region hinzufügen]]

Avatare in der Region werden während des Neustarts getrennt.

'''Wichtig:''' Aufgrund von .NET/Mono-Laufzeitbeschränkungen erfolgt möglicherweise kein echtes Entladen von Modulen. Einige Ressourcen können über Neustarts hinweg im Speicher verbleiben.

== Server-Herunterfahren ==

* Für jede Scene: [[#Eine_Region_entfernen|Region entfernen]]-Schritte werden durchgeführt
** ''RemoveRegion'' wird für alle Module aufgerufen
** ''Close'' wird für alle ''INonSharedRegionModule''s aufgerufen
* ''Close'' wird für alle ''ISharedRegionModule''s aufgerufen
* Module können vom Garbage Collector erfasst werden

= Best Practices =

== Konfiguration ==

Verwenden Sie das ''enabled''-Muster für Module, die optional sein sollten:

[ExampleModule]
Enabled = true
; Weitere Einstellungen...

Überprüfen Sie dies in ''Initialise'' und kehren Sie früh zurück, wenn deaktiviert:

public void Initialise(IConfigSource config)
{
IConfig cfg = config.Configs["ExampleModule"];
if (cfg == null || !cfg.GetBoolean("Enabled", false))
return;

m_enabled = true;
// Initialisierung fortsetzen...
}

== Ressourcenverwaltung ==

* '''In RemoveRegion aufräumen:''' Event-Handler abmelden, Interfaces abmelden
* '''In Close aufräumen:''' Ressourcen freigeben, Verbindungen schließen
* '''Operationen abgleichen:''' Was Sie in ''AddRegion'' hinzufügen, entfernen Sie in ''RemoveRegion''
* '''Memory Leaks vermeiden:''' Immer Event-Handler abhängen, um Referenzen zu vermeiden

== Modul-Abhängigkeiten ==

Greifen Sie auf andere Module in ''RegionLoaded'' zu, nicht in ''AddRegion'':

public void RegionLoaded(Scene scene)
{
// Sicher - alle Module wurden hinzugefügt
IOtherModule other = scene.RequestModuleInterface<IOtherModule>();
if (other != null)
{
// Modul verwenden
}
}

== Modultyp wählen ==

'''Verwenden Sie ISharedRegionModule wenn:'''
* Modul Singleton-Dienste bereitstellt
* Modul regionsübergreifende Funktionalität verwaltet
* Modul ressourcenintensiv ist und nur einmal existieren sollte
* Beispiel: Asset-Service, Benutzerverwaltung

'''Verwenden Sie INonSharedRegionModule wenn:'''
* Modul regionsspezifischen Status verwaltet
* Modul-Funktionalität regionsspezifisch ist
* Modul von Isolation zwischen Regionen profitiert
* Beispiel: Terrain-Modul, Vegetations-Modul

== ReplaceableInterface ==

Verwenden Sie ''ReplaceableInterface'', um die Ersetzung Ihres Moduls zu ermöglichen:

public Type ReplaceableInterface
{
get { return typeof(IMyModuleInterface); }
}

Dies ermöglicht es Drittanbieter-Modulen, Ihre Standard-Implementierung zu ersetzen.

= Bereitstellung =

== Manuelle Bereitstellung ==

1. Bauen Sie Ihre Modul-Assembly
2. Kopieren Sie die .dll in den bin-Ordner von OpenSim
3. Starten Sie OpenSim neu
4. Modul wird automatisch über Mono.Addins entdeckt und geladen

== Verwendung von Prebuild ==

Für die Integration in das Build-System von OpenSim erstellen Sie einen prebuild.xml-Eintrag:

<Project name="OpenSim.Region.Modules.Example" path="addon-modules/ExampleModule" type="Library">
<Configuration name="Debug">
<Options>
<OutputPath>../../bin/</OutputPath>
</Options>
</Configuration>

<ReferencePath>../../bin/</ReferencePath>
<Reference name="Mono.Addins"/>
<Reference name="Nini"/>
<Reference name="log4net"/>
<Reference name="OpenSim.Region.Framework"/>
<Reference name="OpenSim.Framework"/>

<Files>
<Match pattern="*.cs" recurse="true"/>
</Files>
</Project>

== Verwendung von .NET SDK-Projekten ==

Moderne .NET 8.0-Projekte können SDK-Style .csproj verwenden:

<Project Sdk="Microsoft.NET.Sdk">
<PropertyGroup>
<TargetFramework>net8.0</TargetFramework>
<OutputPath>../../bin/</OutputPath>
<GenerateAssemblyInfo>false</GenerateAssemblyInfo>
</PropertyGroup>

<ItemGroup>
<Reference Include="Mono.Addins" HintPath="../../bin/Mono.Addins.dll" />
<ProjectReference Include="../../OpenSim/Region/Framework/OpenSim.Region.Framework.csproj" />
</ItemGroup>
</Project>

= Fehlerbehebung =

== Modul wird nicht geladen ==

* Überprüfen Sie, ob das Extension-Attribut korrekt ist
* Prüfen Sie, ob Assembly-Attribute vorhanden sind
* Stellen Sie sicher, dass die Mono.Addins.dll-Referenz korrekt ist
* Überprüfen Sie das OpenSim-Log auf Addin-Ladefehler
* Überprüfen Sie, ob die .dll im bin-Verzeichnis liegt

== Modul nicht gefunden ==

* Überprüfen Sie, ob die Name-Eigenschaft des Moduls mit der Konfiguration übereinstimmt
* Überprüfen Sie, ob das Modul in der Konfiguration aktiviert ist
* Prüfen Sie auf Tippfehler im Extension-Id-Attribut

== Methoden werden nicht aufgerufen ==

* Überprüfen Sie, ob die Interface-Implementierung vollständig ist
* Prüfen Sie, ob m_enabled oder ähnliche Flags die Ausführung nicht verhindern
* Stellen Sie sicher, dass das Modul die Konfigurationsprüfungen in Initialise bestanden hat

== Memory Leaks ==

* Hängen Sie alle Event-Handler in RemoveRegion ab
* Melden Sie alle Modul-Interfaces ab
* Leeren Sie Collections und Referenzen in Close
* Verwenden Sie WeakReference für langlebige Referenzen, wenn angemessen

== .NET 8.0 spezifische Probleme ==

* Stellen Sie sicher, dass alle referenzierten Assemblies .NET 8.0-kompatibel sind
* Prüfen Sie auf veraltete API-Verwendung
* Überprüfen Sie, ob async/await-Muster korrekt verwendet werden

= Erweiterte Themen =

== Modul-Ersetzung ==

Implementieren Sie ''ReplaceableInterface'', um Modul-Ersetzung zu ermöglichen:

public Type ReplaceableInterface
{
get { return typeof(IMyService); }
}

Der Loader wird:
1. Alle Module laden
2. Für Module mit ReplaceableInterface die Aktivierung aufschieben
3. Nur aktivieren, wenn kein anderes Modul dieses Interface registriert hat

== Modul-übergreifende Kommunikation ==

Verwenden Sie Modul-Interfaces für die Kommunikation:

// Interface definieren
public interface IMyModule
{
void DoSomething();
}

// Im Modul implementieren
public class MyModule : ISharedRegionModule, IMyModule
{
public void AddRegion(Scene scene)
{
scene.RegisterModuleInterface<IMyModule>(this);
}

public void DoSomething()
{
// Implementierung
}
}

// Von einem anderen Modul aus verwenden
public void RegionLoaded(Scene scene)
{
IMyModule myMod = scene.RequestModuleInterface<IMyModule>();
if (myMod != null)
myMod.DoSomething();
}

== Leistungsüberlegungen ==

* '''Geteilte Module:''' Geringerer Speicher-Overhead, potenzielle Engpässe
* '''Nicht-geteilte Module:''' Höhere Speichernutzung, bessere Parallelisierung
* '''Event-Handler:''' Seien Sie effizient, vermeiden Sie blockierende Operationen
* '''Asynchrone Operationen:''' Verwenden Sie Task-basierte async für langläufige Operationen

= Siehe auch =

* [[Developing OpenSim Addins]] - Erstellen von Addon-Paketen
* [[Installing 3rd party addins]] - Installation von Addons
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/ OpenSimulator Wiki] - Hauptdokumentation

= Referenzen =

* [https://github.com/opensim/opensim OpenSimulator GitHub Repository]
* [https://github.com/mono/mono-addins Mono.Addins Dokumentation]
* [http://opensimulator.org/ OpenSimulator Website]

[[Category:Modules]]
[[Category:Development]]

Installing 3rd party addins/de

2025-12-16T09:35:55Z

Manni: Created page with "{{Quicklinks|Installing_3rd_party_addins}} = Installing 3rd party addins = Diese Seite erklärt, wie man Drittanbieter-Addins für den Simulator-Server systematisch installier..."

{{Quicklinks|Installing_3rd_party_addins}}
= Installing 3rd party addins =
Diese Seite erklärt, wie man Drittanbieter-Addins für den Simulator-Server systematisch installiert, aktualisiert und deinstalliert. Drittanbieter-Addins sind Pakete, die um binäre Distributionen von Region Modulen herum erstellt wurden, möglicherweise mit zusätzlichen externen Bibliotheken und Ressourcen, die den Simulator mit zusätzlicher Funktionalität erweitern. Beachten Sie, dass Drittanbieter-Addins hier '''binäre Pakete''' von OpenSim-Erweiterungen bezeichnet; dies unterscheidet sich von als Quellcode verfügbaren Erweiterungen, mit denen Sie möglicherweise bereits vertraut sind und für die Sie möglicherweise bereits einen Prozess zum Erstellen und Bereitstellen in Ihrem Grid eingerichtet haben. Drittanbieter-Addins geben den Anbietern die Möglichkeit, den Quellcode proprietär zu halten, und bieten Ihnen einen relativ einfachen Prozess zur Integration dieser Erweiterungen in Ihre OpenSim-Installation und zur Weiterentwicklung relativ unabhängig von Aktualisierungen des OpenSim-Kerns.

'''Hinweis:''' Diese Dokumentation wurde für OpenSimulator Version 0.9.3.x mit .NET 8.0 Runtime aktualisiert.

Wenn Sie ein Entwickler sind, der nach Informationen zur Entwicklung und Verteilung von Addins sucht, lesen Sie bitte [[Developing OpenSim Addins|diese andere Seite]].

== Voraussetzungen ==

Bevor Sie Drittanbieter-Addins installieren, stellen Sie sicher, dass Sie Folgendes haben:
* OpenSimulator 0.9.3.x installiert und laufend
* .NET 8.0 Runtime (https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/8.0)
* Zugriff auf das OpenSim bin-Verzeichnis
* Administrative/Schreibberechtigungen für das OpenSim-Installationsverzeichnis

== Registry-Speicherort ==

Bevor Sie mit der Verwendung verwalteter Addins beginnen, ist es wichtig, dass Sie sorgfältig darüber nachdenken, wo Sie diese Addins aufbewahren möchten. Intern verwendet OpenSim seine eigenen Addins und installiert die Addin-Datenbank unter seinem '''bin'''-Ordner. Wenn Sie nichts ändern, werden auch Drittanbieter-Addins dort platziert. Abhängig davon, welchen Prozess Sie für die Aktualisierung von OpenSim eingerichtet haben, kann dies zu Problemen führen: Wenn Ihr Prozess das Löschen des gesamten bin-Ordners und das Ersetzen durch einen neuen umfasst, werden bei diesem Prozess auch Ihre Drittanbieter-Addins gelöscht, und Sie müssen sie jedes Mal neu installieren, wenn Sie den OpenSim-Kern aktualisieren.

Der Speicherort der Addin-Registry wird durch eine Konfigurationsvariable in OpenSim.ini angegeben:

[Startup]
...
;# {RegistryLocation} {} {Addins Registry Location} {}
; Legen Sie den Pfad zu einem Verzeichnis für die Addin-Registry fest, wenn Sie sie nicht im OpenSim bin-Verzeichnis haben möchten.
; RegistryLocation = "."
RegistryLocation = "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry"

Sie können dies so ändern, dass es auf einen anderen Pfad in Ihrem Dateisystem verweist. Dieser Speicherort ist für die Addin-Installation wichtig.

'''Empfehlung:''' Verwenden Sie ein separates Verzeichnis außerhalb des OpenSim bin-Ordners, um Ihre Addins bei OpenSim-Updates zu erhalten.

Von hier an verwenden alle im Folgenden beschriebenen Schritte das Mono Addins Kommandozeilen-Tool '''mautil'''. mautil ermöglicht es uns, Mono-Addins für .NET-Anwendungen im Allgemeinen zu paketieren, zu verteilen, zu installieren und zu deinstallieren. Dieses Tool ist im bin-Verzeichnis von OpenSim als '''mautil.exe''' enthalten.

== Konfigurations-Speicherort ==

Ein weiteres Problem, über das Sie nachdenken müssen, ist, wo die eigenen Konfigurationsdateien der Addins gespeichert werden sollen. Dies ist wichtig, da Sie beim Aktualisieren von OpenSim oder den Addins diese Konfigurationsdateien nicht immer wieder neu erstellen möchten.

Der Speicherort der Addin-Konfigurationsdateien wird durch eine Konfigurationsvariable in OpenSim.ini angegeben:

[Startup]
...
;# {ConfigDirectory} {} {Set path to directory for modular ini files} {}
; Wird von Region Modulen verwendet, um optional Konfigurationsdateien aus einem separaten Verzeichnis zu laden
; ConfigDirectory = "."
ConfigDirectory = "/pfad/zu/meinen/addin/configs"

Sie können dies so ändern, dass es auf einen anderen Pfad in Ihrem Dateisystem verweist. Dieser Speicherort ist für die Addin-Installation wichtig.

'''Empfehlung:''' Verwenden Sie ein separates Verzeichnis, um Konfigurationsdateien über Updates hinweg persistent zu halten. Häufige Optionen sind:
* Windows: C:\OpenSim\configs
* Linux: /etc/opensim/configs oder ~/opensim/configs

== Initiale Registry-Aktualisierung ==

Bevor Sie Drittanbieter-Addins installieren, müssen Sie die Registry mit OpenSims eigenen Addins füllen, die für die Installation von Drittanbieter-Addins erforderlich sind. Führen Sie dazu diesen Befehl im '''bin'''-Ordner von OpenSim aus:

'''Windows:'''
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\pfad\zu\meiner\registry" reg-update

'''Linux/Mac:'''
$ mono mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" reg-update

Zum Beispiel:
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" reg-update

'''WICHTIG:''' Sie müssen diese Befehle aus dem bin-Ordner heraus ausführen. Andernfalls müssen Sie den '''-p''' Parameter hinzufügen und ihn auf das Verzeichnis setzen, in dem sich OpenSim.exe befindet. Wenn Sie also mautil.exe von woanders ausführen, stellen Sie sicher, dass Sie den Wert dieses Arguments anpassen. Wenn Sie es beispielsweise aus dem OpenSim-Stammordner ausführen, sollte der obige Befehl lauten:

$ bin\mautil.exe -p bin -reg "C:\addins-registry" reg-update

Sie können auch absolute Pfade verwenden, wenn das einfacher ist.

Von hier an gehen wir davon aus, dass mautil.exe aus dem bin-Ordner von OpenSim ausgeführt wird, daher lassen wir -p weg.

== Drittanbieter-Repositories ==

Der nächste Schritt besteht darin, Remote-Repositories von Addins zu Ihrer OpenSim-Installation hinzuzufügen. Es gibt kein zentrales Repository für OpenSim-Addins. Remote-Repositories werden von Drittanbietern bereitgestellt und gepflegt, und Sie müssen [[List of 3rd Party Addin Repositories|auf irgendeine Weise]] davon erfahren. Sie können so viele Repositories hinzufügen, wie Sie benötigen.

Um ein Repository hinzuzufügen, führen Sie diese Befehle im '''bin'''-Ordner von OpenSim aus:

'''Windows:'''
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\pfad\zu\meiner\registry" rep-add http://repository-url
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\pfad\zu\meiner\registry" rep-update

'''Linux/Mac:'''
$ mono mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" rep-add http://repository-url
$ mono mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" rep-update

Zum Beispiel:
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" rep-add http://example.com/opensim-addins
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" rep-update

Oder wenn Sie sich entschieden haben, den Standard-'''bin'''-Ordner von OpenSim als Registry-Speicherort zu verwenden:
$ mautil.exe -reg . rep-add http://example.com/opensim-addins
$ mautil.exe -reg . rep-update

Nochmals: Wenn Sie mautil.exe von woanders ausführen, stellen Sie sicher, dass Sie -p richtig verwenden.

Von hier an können Sie prüfen, welche Addins verfügbar sind, indem Sie Folgendes eingeben:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" list-av

Dies zeigt alle verfügbaren Addins aus allen hinzugefügten Repositories an.

== Addins installieren ==

Schließlich können Sie ein verfügbares Addin mit folgendem Befehl installieren:

$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" install addin-name

Zum Beispiel, um die neueste Version eines Addins zu installieren:
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" install IhrAddin.Name

Um eine bestimmte Version zu installieren:
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" install IhrAddin.Name,0.9.3.1.1

Die installierten Addins werden unter '''/pfad/zu/meiner/registry/addins/addin-name''' platziert. Häufig bringen diese Addins eine Konfigurationsdatei (.ini) mit, die Sie möglicherweise ändern müssen. Abhängig davon, wie die Addins codiert sind, kopieren sie möglicherweise ihre eigene Konfigurationsdatei in den oben angegebenen Ordner ConfigDirectory oder auch nicht. Selbst wenn sie es tun, können sie es nur tun, wenn OpenSim die Addins zum ersten Mal ausführt.

'''Best Practice:''' Gehen Sie nach der Installation eines Addins zu dem Verzeichnis, in dem Ihr Addin installiert wurde, und prüfen Sie auf Konfigurationsdateien. Kopieren Sie alle .ini-Dateien von dort in Ihr ConfigDirectory und bearbeiten Sie sie entsprechend Ihren Anforderungen, bevor Sie OpenSim starten.

Zum Beispiel könnten Sie Konfigurationsdateien finden unter:
C:\addins-registry\addins\IhrAddin.Name.0.9.3.1.1\

Sie würden dann alle .ini-Dateien in Ihr ConfigDirectory (z.B. C:\OpenSim\configs) kopieren und dort bearbeiten.

== Installation überprüfen ==

Nach der Installation können Sie überprüfen, ob das Addin korrekt installiert wurde:

$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" list

Dies listet alle installierten Addins mit ihren Versionen auf.

Um detaillierte Informationen über ein bestimmtes Addin zu sehen:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" info addin-name

== Auf Updates prüfen und Updates installieren ==

Um nach verfügbaren Updates zu suchen:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" list-update

Dies zeigt Ihnen, für welche installierten Addins neuere Versionen verfügbar sind.

Um ein bestimmtes Addin zu aktualisieren:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" update addin-name

Um alle Addins zu aktualisieren:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" update

'''Hinweis:''' Vor dem Aktualisieren wird empfohlen, Ihre Konfigurationsdateien zu sichern und das Update zuerst in einer Entwicklungsumgebung zu testen.

== Addins deinstallieren ==

Um ein Addin zu deinstallieren:
$ mautil.exe -reg "/pfad/zu/meiner/registry" uninstall addin-name

Zum Beispiel:
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry" uninstall IhrAddin.Name

'''Hinweis:''' Die Deinstallation eines Addins entfernt nicht automatisch seine Konfigurationsdateien aus Ihrem ConfigDirectory. Möglicherweise möchten Sie diese manuell entfernen oder archivieren.

== Versionierung und Kompatibilität ==

Ein wichtiger Aspekt bei der Installation und Verwaltung von binären Drittanbieter-Komponenten ist die Frage der Versionierung. .NET ist besonders streng, was die Schnittstellenkompatibilität zwischen Bibliotheken betrifft, und beschwert sich (durch Auslösen von Ausnahmen oder Abstürzen), wenn eine ausführbare Datei versucht, eine inkompatible Bibliothek zu verknüpfen. Im Fall von Drittanbieter-Addins können Inkompatibilitäten auftreten, wenn diese Addins gegen eine OpenSim-Version kompiliert wurden, die sich von der unterscheidet, die Sie haben. Einige dieser Inkompatibilitäten werden zum Zeitpunkt der Addin-Installation abgefangen, andere jedoch nicht -- diese können auftreten, wenn Sie OpenSim ausführen.

=== Versionsnummern verstehen ===

OpenSim-Addins verwenden typischerweise Versionsnummern im Format: '''X.Y.Z.W.A''' wobei:
* '''X.Y.Z.W''' der OpenSim-Version entspricht (z.B. 0.9.3.1)
* '''A''' die eigene Versionsnummer des Addins ist

Zum Beispiel: '''IhrAddin.Name,0.9.3.1.2''' bedeutet:
* Kompatibel mit OpenSim 0.9.3.1
* Dies ist Version 2 des Addins

=== Kompatibilitäts-Szenarien ===

'''Szenario 1: Addin älter als OpenSim'''

Angenommen, das neueste MISearchModules-Addin wurde gegen OpenSim 0.9.3.1 kompiliert und Sie haben OpenSim 0.9.2.0. Wenn Sie versuchen, dieses Addin zu installieren, schlägt die Addin-Installation fehl, da MISearchModules,0.9.3.1.1 eine explizite Abhängigkeit von OpenSim 0.9.3.1 hat. Da Ihre OpenSim-Version älter als das Addin ist, wird die Inkompatibilität erkannt und die Installation schlägt fehl. In diesem Fall müssten Sie:
* Ihr OpenSim auf 0.9.3.1 oder höher aktualisieren, ODER
* Das ältere MISearchModules-Addin für OpenSim 0.9.2.0 finden und installieren

'''Szenario 2: OpenSim neuer als Addin (Am problematischsten)'''

Angenommen, Sie haben MISearchModules,0.9.2.0.1 installiert (das gegen OpenSim 0.9.2.0 kompiliert wurde) und aktualisieren Ihre OpenSim-Installation auf OpenSim 0.9.3.1. Das Mono-Addins-Framework wird dieses Addin als kompatibel mit der neuen OpenSim-Version betrachten (weil die neue OpenSim-Version höher ist als die des Addins). In Wirklichkeit können die neuen OpenSim-DLLs jedoch andere .NET-Schnittstellen haben als die, gegen die das MISearchModules-Addin kompiliert wurde. Wenn das Addin Teile des Kern-OpenSim verwendet, die sich zwischen den Versionen geändert haben, kann ein Fehler auftreten, wenn Sie OpenSim ausführen -- es kann sich nur um eine Ausnahme im Log oder einen vollständigen Absturz des Simulators handeln. In diesem Fall müssten Sie:
* Nach Updates suchen: '''mautil.exe -reg "pfad" list-update'''
* Das Addin aktualisieren: '''mautil.exe -reg "pfad" update MISearchModules'''
* Wenn noch kein Update existiert, deinstallieren Sie das Addin, bis die neuere Version verfügbar wird

'''Versionsnummern aller Art sind hauptsächlich Anmerkungen für Menschen. Die Wahrheit liegt immer in der binären Signatur der DLLs.'''

=== Konkrete Beispiele ===

* '''Addin Foo benötigt OpenSim 0.9.3.1 und wird in OpenSim 0.9.3.1 installiert''' ==> Addin-Kompatibilität ok. Binäre Kompatibilität ''wahrscheinlich'' ok.

* '''Addin Foo benötigt OpenSim 0.9.2.0 und wird in OpenSim 0.9.3.1 installiert''' ==> Addin-Kompatibilität ok. Binäre Kompatibilität ''kann'' fehlschlagen, abhängig von API-Änderungen. Wenn Foo gegen OpenSim 0.9.2.0 kompiliert wurde, kann es fehlschlagen, da sich OpenSim-APIs zwischen Releases ändern können. Aber wenn Foo gegen 0.9.3.1 kompiliert wurde, die Entwickler von Foo aber vergessen haben, die deklarierte Abhängigkeit zu aktualisieren, ist die binäre Kompatibilität ok.

* '''Addin Foo benötigt OpenSim 0.9.4.0 und wird in OpenSim 0.9.3.1 installiert''' ==> Addin-Kompatibilität wird fehlschlagen. Foo wird nicht einmal laufen, um die binäre Kompatibilität zu prüfen. Die Installation wird blockiert.

== Fehlerbehebung ==

=== Häufige Probleme ===

'''Addin lädt nicht'''
* Überprüfen Sie das OpenSim-Log auf Fehlermeldungen
* Überprüfen Sie, ob die Addin-Version mit Ihrer OpenSim-Version übereinstimmt
* Stellen Sie sicher, dass alle Abhängigkeiten installiert sind
* Prüfen Sie, ob Konfigurationsdateien vorhanden und korrekt bearbeitet sind

'''Versions-Mismatch-Fehler'''
* Aktualisieren Sie das Addin auf eine mit Ihrem OpenSim kompatible Version
* Oder downgraden/upgraden Sie Ihr OpenSim, um mit dem Addin übereinzustimmen
* Fragen Sie beim Addin-Anbieter nach kompatiblen Versionen

'''Konfigurations-Probleme'''
* Überprüfen Sie, ob .ini-Dateien im richtigen ConfigDirectory sind
* Prüfen Sie, ob ConfigDirectory in OpenSim.ini richtig gesetzt ist
* Überprüfen Sie Log-Dateien auf konfigurationsbezogene Fehler

'''Registry-Beschädigung'''
* Wenn die Registry beschädigt wird, müssen Sie sie möglicherweise löschen und neu erstellen:
1. Löschen Sie das Registry-Verzeichnis
2. Führen Sie '''mautil.exe -reg "pfad" reg-update''' erneut aus
3. Fügen Sie Repositories wieder hinzu
4. Installieren Sie Addins neu

=== .NET 8.0 spezifische Probleme ===

* Stellen Sie sicher, dass .NET 8.0 Runtime auf Ihrem System installiert ist
* Einige ältere Addins, die für .NET Framework kompiliert wurden, funktionieren möglicherweise nicht mit .NET 8.0
* Fragen Sie bei Addin-Anbietern nach .NET 8.0-Kompatibilität

=== Hilfe erhalten ===

Wenn Sie auf Probleme stoßen:
* Überprüfen Sie die OpenSim-Log-Dateien im bin-Verzeichnis
* Konsultieren Sie die Dokumentation des Addin-Anbieters
* Besuchen Sie die OpenSimulator-Foren oder Discord
* Prüfen Sie die [[List of 3rd Party Addin Repositories]] für Kontaktinformationen

== Best Practices ==

* '''Separate Registry:''' Verwenden Sie immer ein separates Verzeichnis für die Addin-Registry außerhalb des bin-Ordners
* '''Separate Konfiguration:''' Speichern Sie Addin-Konfigurationen in einem dedizierten ConfigDirectory
* '''Zuerst testen:''' Testen Sie Addins in einer Entwicklungsumgebung, bevor Sie sie in der Produktion einsetzen
* '''Backup:''' Sichern Sie Ihre Konfigurationen vor dem Aktualisieren von Addins oder OpenSim
* '''Kompatibilität prüfen:''' Überprüfen Sie immer die Versionskompatibilität vor der Installation oder Aktualisierung
* '''Dokumentation lesen:''' Lesen Sie die Dokumentation des Addin-Anbieters für spezifische Installationsanweisungen
* '''Aktuell bleiben:''' Prüfen Sie regelmäßig auf Addin-Updates, um die Kompatibilität mit Ihrer OpenSim-Version sicherzustellen
* '''Logs überwachen:''' Beobachten Sie OpenSim-Logs nach der Installation neuer Addins auf Fehler oder Warnungen

== Erweiterte Nutzung ==

=== Verwendung mehrerer Registries ===

In einigen Fällen möchten Sie möglicherweise separate Registries für verschiedene Zwecke pflegen (Testing, Produktion, etc.). Sie können dies tun, indem Sie verschiedene Registry-Pfade angeben:

$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry-test" rep-add http://example.com/repo
$ mautil.exe -reg "C:\addins-registry-prod" rep-add http://example.com/repo

Konfigurieren Sie dann OpenSim.ini entsprechend für jede Umgebung.

=== Scripting für Addin-Verwaltung ===

Sie können Skripte erstellen, um die Addin-Verwaltung zu automatisieren:

'''Windows (PowerShell):'''
$registry = "C:\addins-registry"
& .\mautil.exe -reg $registry list-update
& .\mautil.exe -reg $registry update

'''Linux (Bash):'''
#!/bin/bash
REGISTRY="/pfad/zu/registry"
mono mautil.exe -reg "$REGISTRY" list-update
mono mautil.exe -reg "$REGISTRY" update

== Siehe auch ==

* [[Developing OpenSim Addins]] - Informationen für Addin-Entwickler
* [[List of 3rd Party Addin Repositories]] - Community-Repositories
* [[New Region Modules]] - Entwicklung von Kern-Region-Modulen

== Externe Links ==

* [https://github.com/opensim/opensim OpenSimulator GitHub Repository]
* [https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/8.0 .NET 8.0 Download]
* [http://opensimulator.org/ OpenSimulator Webseite]
* [http://opensimulator.org/wiki/ OpenSimulator Wiki]

Developing OpenSim Addins/de

2025-12-16T09:18:49Z

Manni: Created page with "{{Quicklinks|Developing_OpenSim_Addins}} = Developing OpenSim Addins = Diese Seite erklärt, wie man OpenSimulator Region Module Addins entwickelt, paketiert und verteilt. Sie..."

{{Quicklinks|Developing_OpenSim_Addins}}
= Developing OpenSim Addins =
Diese Seite erklärt, wie man OpenSimulator Region Module Addins entwickelt, paketiert und verteilt. Sie richtet sich an Entwickler, die zusätzliche Funktionalität bereitstellen möchten, die über die Kernverteilung von OpenSim hinausgeht, und die diese in binärer Form an andere weitergeben möchten. Diese Anleitung bezieht sich auf [[New Region Modules|Region Module]], die auf den Simulatoren laufen. Es wird vorausgesetzt, dass Sie bereits mit den Grundlagen der Entwicklung von Region Modulen vertraut sind.

'''Hinweis:''' Diese Dokumentation wurde für OpenSimulator Version 0.9.3.x mit .NET 8.0 Runtime aktualisiert.

Wenn Sie nach der Installation von Drittanbieter-Addins suchen, lesen Sie bitte [[Installing 3rd party addins|diese andere Seite]].

== Voraussetzungen ==

Bevor Sie OpenSim Addins entwickeln, stellen Sie sicher, dass Sie Folgendes haben:
* .NET 8.0 SDK installiert (https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/8.0)
* OpenSimulator 0.9.3.x Quellcode oder Entwicklungsumgebung
* Grundlegendes Verständnis von C# und OpenSim Region Module Entwicklung

== Das finale Paket ==

OpenSim enthält mehrere eingebaute Addins, die als Beispiele dienen. Zwei gute Referenzen sind:
* '''OpenSim.Addons.OfflineIM''' - Verarbeitet Offline-Sofortnachrichten
* '''OpenSim.Addons.Groups''' - Stellt Gruppenfunktionalität bereit

Ein typisches Addin-Paket enthält:
* Die Region Module DLL
* Alle externen Abhängigkeiten (zusätzliche DLLs)
* Konfigurationsdateien (.ini)
* Zusätzliche Ressourcen (HTML-Dateien, Bilder, etc.)

Dies sind alle Dateien, die OpenSim-Benutzer benötigen, um das Addin in ihren Installationen auszuführen.

== Addin-Direktiven ==

Wie üblich sollte das Region Module mit dem Extension-Attribut als OpenSim Region Module annotiert werden:

['''Extension'''(Path = "/OpenSim/RegionModules", NodeName = "RegionModule", Id = "IhrModulId")]
public class IhrModul : ISharedRegionModule
{
...
}

Für nicht-geteilte Region Module verwenden Sie stattdessen '''INonSharedRegionModule'''.

Zusätzlich sollte das Assembly, das das Region Module enthält, die folgenden Direktiven in Properties/AssemblyInfo.cs enthalten:

// Diese Zeilen sind für die Addin-Paketierung erforderlich
[assembly: '''Addin'''("IhrAddin.Name", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber + ".1")]
[assembly: '''AddinDependency'''("OpenSim.Region.Framework", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)]
[assembly: '''AddinDescription'''("Beschreibung Ihres Addins")]
[assembly: '''AddinAuthor'''("Ihr Name")]

// Die nächsten Zeilen sind optional - externe Abhängigkeiten einbinden
[assembly: '''ImportAddinAssembly'''("ExterneBibliothek.dll")]
[assembly: '''ImportAddinFile'''("IhreKonfig.ini")]
[assembly: '''ImportAddinFile'''("ressource.html")]

=== Addin-Direktiven verstehen ===

Die erste Direktive [assembly: '''Addin'''("IhrAddin.Name", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber + ".1")] legt den öffentlichen Namen Ihres Addins fest: Dies ist, was die Benutzer sehen werden. Achten Sie besonders auf die Versionsnummer. Während Sie jede beliebige Versionsnummer verwenden können, wird dringend empfohlen, die Versionsnummer Ihres Addins mit der OpenSim-Version zu verknüpfen, gegen die Sie Ihren Code kompilieren.

Mit .NET 8.0 ist die Binärkompatibilität weiterhin wichtig, daher sollten Sie Ihre Benutzer darüber informieren, mit welcher OpenSim-Version dieses Addin kompatibel ist. Der direkteste Weg, diese Information weiterzugeben, besteht darin, sie zur Versionsnummer Ihres Addins hinzuzufügen. In diesem Fall verwenden wir die ersten Ziffern, um die OpenSim-Versionsnummer (z.B. 0.9.3.1) anzugeben, und die letzte Ziffer, um die eigene Version dieses Addins anzugeben. Wenn wir dieses Addin zwischen OpenSim-Releases weiterentwickeln würden, würde diese letzte Ziffer auf 2 erhöht, während die ersten Ziffern gleich blieben.

Die zweite Direktive [assembly: '''AddinDependency'''("OpenSim.Region.Framework", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)] legt die Abhängigkeit mit der konkreten OpenSim-DLL fest, die dieses Addin erweitert. Alle Region Module Addins erweitern OpenSim.Region.Framework. Auch hier sollte die Versionsnummer die aktuelle OpenSim-Versionsnummer sein, da dies die DLL ist, gegen die Sie Ihren Code kompilieren. Für eine Erklärung, wie die Versionierung funktioniert, siehe [[Installing_3rd_party_addins#Versioning]]

Die dritte und vierte Direktive geben eine Beschreibung und Autorenschaft-Informationen für Ihr Addin.

Die letzten Direktiven (ImportAddinAssembly, ImportAddinFile) binden zusätzliche Dateien in das Paket ein, die notwendig sind, damit die Addins in den Umgebungen Ihrer Benutzer funktionieren. Die Direktive [assembly: '''ImportAddinAssembly'''("ExterneBibliothek.dll")] hat zwei Zwecke: (1) sie bindet diese DLL in das Paket ein und (2) sie informiert die Laufzeitumgebung des Benutzers, dass diese DLL ebenfalls geladen werden sollte, wenn unser Addin in den Speicher geladen wird.

== Beispiel: OfflineIM Addon ==

Das OfflineIM-Addon, das mit OpenSim ausgeliefert wird, demonstriert Best Practices:

'''Modul-Deklaration:'''
[Extension(Path = "/OpenSim/RegionModules", NodeName = "RegionModule", Id = "OfflineIMConnectorModule")]
public class OfflineIMRegionModule : ISharedRegionModule, IOfflineIMService
{
public void Initialise(IConfigSource config)
{
IConfig cnf = config.Configs["Messaging"];
if (cnf == null)
return;
if (cnf != null && cnf.GetString("OfflineMessageModule", string.Empty) != Name)
return;

m_Enabled = true;
// ... Initialisierungscode
}

public void AddRegion(Scene scene)
{
if (!m_Enabled)
return;

scene.RegisterModuleInterface<IOfflineIMService>(this);
// ... Region-Setup
}
// ... andere Interface-Methoden
}

'''AssemblyInfo.cs:'''
[assembly: Addin("OpenSim.OfflineIM", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)]
[assembly: AddinDependency("OpenSim.Region.Framework", OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber)]

== Konfiguration ==

Ein sehr wichtiger Teil des Prozesses hat mit der Konfiguration Ihres Addins zu tun. Anstatt Benutzer zu zwingen, ihre OpenSim.ini-Dateien manuell zu bearbeiten und den zu Ihrem Addin gehörenden Konfigurationsabschnitt hinzuzufügen, empfehlen wir die Verwendung modularer Konfigurationen. In modularen Konfigurationen sind Ihre Komponenten dafür verantwortlich, ihre eigenen Konfigurationsdateien zu lesen.

Hier ist das empfohlene Muster zum Laden der Konfiguration:

public void Initialise(IConfigSource config)
{
// Wir laden die Konfigurationsdatei nur, wenn die Hauptkonfiguration noch nichts über dieses Modul weiß
IConfig cnf = config.Configs["IhrModulName"];
if (cnf == null)
{
LoadConfiguration(config);
cnf = config.Configs["IhrModulName"];
if (cnf == null)
{
m_log.WarnFormat("[IHR MODUL]: Konfigurationsabschnitt nicht gefunden. Kann nicht fortfahren.");
return;
}
}

// Konfigurationswerte lesen
m_Enabled = cnf.GetBoolean("Enabled", false);
// ... weitere Konfiguration
}

LoadConfiguration sollte wie folgt deklariert werden:

private void LoadConfiguration(IConfigSource config)
{
string configPath = string.Empty;
bool created;
if (!Util.MergeConfigurationFile(config, "IhrModul.ini",
Path.Combine(AssemblyDirectory, "IhrModul.ini"),
out configPath, out created))
{
m_log.WarnFormat("[IHR MODUL]: Konfigurationsdatei nicht zusammengeführt");
return;
}
if (created)
{
m_log.ErrorFormat("[IHR MODUL]: BITTE BEARBEITEN SIE {0} VOR DEM AUSFÜHREN DIESES ADDINS", configPath);
throw new Exception("Addin muss vor dem Ausführen konfiguriert werden");
}
}

private static string AssemblyDirectory
{
get
{
string location = Assembly.GetExecutingAssembly().Location;
return Path.GetDirectoryName(location);
}
}

Diese Methode verwendet '''OpenSim.Framework.Util.MergeConfigurationFile''', die die ConfigDirectory-Variable aus der OpenSim-Konfiguration liest und prüft, ob die Konfigurationsdatei dieses Moduls bereits vorhanden ist. Wenn ja, wird sie einfach mit den OpenSim-Konfigurationen zusammengeführt. Wenn nicht, kopiert sie die Konfigurationsdatei, die sie im Paket mitgebracht hat, in das ConfigDirectory und warnt den Operator, dass er sie nach seinen Bedürfnissen bearbeiten sollte.

== Projektstruktur ==

OpenSim 0.9.3.x verwendet entweder traditionelle prebuild.xml oder moderne .NET SDK-Style .csproj-Dateien.

=== Verwendung von Prebuild (Traditionell) ===

Wenn Sie prebuild.xml verwenden, stellen Sie sicher, dass alle notwendigen Dateien in das Ausgabeverzeichnis kopiert werden:

<Project name="OpenSim.Addon.IhrModul" path="addon-modules/IhrModul" type="Library">
<Configuration name="Debug">
<Options>
<OutputPath>../../bin/</OutputPath>
<AllowUnsafe>true</AllowUnsafe>
</Options>
</Configuration>
<Configuration name="Release">
<Options>
<OutputPath>../../bin/</OutputPath>
<AllowUnsafe>true</AllowUnsafe>
</Options>
</Configuration>

<ReferencePath>../../bin/</ReferencePath>
<Reference name="Nini" path="../../bin/"/>
<Reference name="log4net" path="../../bin/"/>
<Reference name="Mono.Addins" path="../../bin/"/>

<Reference name="OpenSim.Region.Framework"/>
<Reference name="OpenSim.Framework"/>

<Files>
<Match pattern="*.cs" recurse="true">
<Exclude name="obj" pattern="obj"/>
<Exclude name="Tests" pattern="Tests"/>
</Match>
<Match pattern="*.ini" buildAction="Copy" destination="../../bin/" />
<Match pattern="*.html" buildAction="Copy" destination="../../bin/" />
</Files>
</Project>

Nach dem Erstellen/Ändern von prebuild.xml ausführen:
$ runprebuild.bat (Windows)
$ ./runprebuild.sh (Linux/Mac)

=== Verwendung von .NET SDK-Style Projekten (Modern) ===

Moderne .NET 8.0-Projekte können SDK-Style .csproj-Dateien direkt verwenden:

<Project Sdk="Microsoft.NET.Sdk">
<PropertyGroup>
<TargetFramework>net8.0</TargetFramework>
<OutputPath>../../bin/</OutputPath>
<GenerateAssemblyInfo>false</GenerateAssemblyInfo>
<AllowUnsafeBlocks>true</AllowUnsafeBlocks>
</PropertyGroup>

<ItemGroup>
<Reference Include="Mono.Addins" HintPath="../../bin/Mono.Addins.dll" Private="False" />
<ProjectReference Include="../../OpenSim/Region/Framework/OpenSim.Region.Framework.csproj" />
<ProjectReference Include="../../OpenSim/Framework/OpenSim.Framework.csproj" />
</ItemGroup>

<ItemGroup>
<None Update="*.ini" CopyToOutputDirectory="PreserveNewest" />
</ItemGroup>
</Project>

== Ihr Addon bauen ==

=== Mit Prebuild ===
1. Führen Sie Prebuild aus, um Projektdateien zu generieren
2. Bauen Sie mit dotnet oder Visual Studio:
$ dotnet build IhrAddon.csproj -c Release

=== Mit direkter .csproj ===
$ dotnet build IhrAddon.csproj -c Release

Alle Ausgabedateien sollten im bin/-Verzeichnis neben anderen OpenSim-Assemblies landen.

== Das Addin paketieren ==

Um die Dateien für die Verteilung zu paketieren, verwenden Sie das '''mautil''' Kommandozeilen-Tool, das im OpenSim bin-Verzeichnis enthalten ist.

$ /pfad/zu/mautil.exe pack bin/IhrAddon.dll

Dies erstellt eine Datei namens '''IhrAddon_0.9.3.1.1.mpack''' (Version kann variieren). Dies ist das Addin-Paket, das an den Standorten der Benutzer verteilt und installiert wird.

Beachten Sie, dass .mpack-Dateien komprimierte (zip) Archive sind. Sie können sie öffnen und ihren Inhalt mit Tools zur Inspektion von Zip-Dateien überprüfen.

=== mautil-Befehle ===

Das mautil-Tool (Mono.Addins Manager) unterstützt mehrere Befehle:

* '''pack''' - Erstellt ein .mpack-Paket aus einer DLL
* '''rep-build''' - Baut ein Addin-Repository
* '''install''' - Installiert ein Addin aus einem Repository
* '''uninstall''' - Deinstalliert ein Addin
* '''list''' - Listet installierte Addins auf

Für weitere Informationen:
$ /pfad/zu/mautil.exe --help

== Ihre Addins verteilen ==

Um Ihre Addins anderen zur Verfügung zu stellen, müssen Sie Ihr eigenes Addin-Repository erstellen und es auf einem Webserver hosten.

Um das Repository zu erstellen, erstellen Sie irgendwo einen Ordner und platzieren Sie alle Ihre Addin-Pakete (.mpack) darin. Dann:

$ /pfad/zu/mautil.exe rep-build /pfad/zu/repo/ordner

Dies erstellt zusätzliche Indexdateien (main.mrep, root.mrep) mit den richtigen Einträgen. Alles, was Sie als Nächstes tun müssen, ist den gesamten Inhalt dieses Ordners auf einen Webserver hochzuladen.

Schließlich müssen Sie Ihre Benutzer über die URL Ihres Repositorys informieren, damit sie es zu ihren Registern hinzufügen und Addins aus Ihrem Repository installieren können. Sie können Ihr Repo [[List of 3rd Party Addin Repositories|hier]] hinzufügen.

== Best Practices ==

* '''Versionskompatibilität:''' Kompilieren Sie immer gegen die spezifische OpenSim-Version, die Ihr Addon anvisiert
* '''Konfiguration:''' Verwenden Sie modulare Konfigurationsdateien, anstatt manuelle OpenSim.ini-Bearbeitungen zu erfordern
* '''Abhängigkeiten:''' Dokumentieren Sie alle externen Abhängigkeiten klar
* '''Testen:''' Testen Sie Ihr Addon sowohl mit Standalone- als auch mit Grid-Konfigurationen
* '''Dokumentation:''' Stellen Sie klare Installations- und Konfigurationsanweisungen bereit
* '''Protokollierung:''' Verwenden Sie geeignete Log-Level (Debug, Info, Warn, Error)
* '''.NET 8.0:''' Stellen Sie Kompatibilität mit .NET 8.0 Runtime sicher
* '''Fehlerbehandlung:''' Implementieren Sie ordnungsgemäße Fehlerbehandlung und geben Sie aussagekräftige Fehlermeldungen

== Fehlerbehebung ==

=== Häufige Probleme ===

* '''Assembly nicht gefunden:''' Stellen Sie sicher, dass alle referenzierten Assemblies im bin-Verzeichnis sind
* '''Versions-Missmatch:''' Überprüfen Sie, dass OpenSim.VersionInfo.VersionNumber mit Ihrer OpenSim-Installation übereinstimmt
* '''Modul lädt nicht:''' Prüfen Sie, dass das Extension-Attribut korrekt ist und das Modul das richtige Interface implementiert
* '''Konfiguration nicht gefunden:''' Überprüfen Sie, dass die .ini-Datei ins bin-Verzeichnis kopiert wurde und MergeConfigurationFile aufgerufen wird
* '''.NET Runtime-Probleme:''' Stellen Sie sicher, dass .NET 8.0 Runtime installiert ist

== Siehe auch ==

* [[New Region Modules]] - Dokumentation zur Region Module Entwicklung
* [[Installing 3rd party addins]] - Anleitung für Benutzer zur Installation von Addins
* [[List of 3rd Party Addin Repositories]] - Community-Addon-Repositories

== Externe Links ==

* [https://github.com/opensim/opensim OpenSimulator GitHub Repository]
* [https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/8.0 .NET 8.0 Download]
* [http://opensimulator.org/ OpenSimulator Webseite]

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-12-09

2025-12-09T20:10:59Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:04 AM] Joe Magarac: Hi all. [11:04 A..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:04 AM] Joe Magarac: Hi all.
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Cuga.
[11:04 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Andrew, Hi all
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So some good news to start with. For about a week now I had the primitems read+write code in production and so far no reports of anything breaking related to that
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The difference in load is quite remarkable though
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: great
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://eu-cluster2.zetamex.pw/graphs/graph.php?p=mysql&pi=main&t=mysql_commands&h=eu-cluster2.zetamex.pw&s=600000&x=1900&y=400
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://eu-cluster2.zetamex.pw/graphs/graph.php?p=disk&pi=md2&t=disk_octets&h=eu-cluster2.zetamex.pw&s=600000&x=1900&y=680
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can see before the change and the days after, area under the graph basically
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I gess the question is whether there is some mode of breakage not yet seen
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The comparison of the on scene data vs database is a bit iffy so that's really the only part I see that might not work, but I tried adding only the parts the db actually has to compare instead of everything since the scene stores more data
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In terms of what it does in sql itself it should be fine
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that's why it's now in wider testing. If something does break we'll know
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: will this change slow down updates to prim Contents?
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It should speed them up if anything
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: cool
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's no longer deleting all the rows and re-inserting them, it reads what's there, compares and writes the differences
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: on some code i seen there are extra db reads.. that can be sloe
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is this already in trunk or was it a feature fork?
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: to less extend adding compares is more work
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: on fork
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Helllo *grins*
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew, great to see you all
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still on my end only, I have the rest of this code to test still, which is the changes to scene objects and lsl api to reduce the instances of objects marked as changed even if they have not
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That kinda broke the moment I tried it so needs more time to debug
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did add some change of properties on core that vincent spotted
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah some of that stuff is already there, but not all of it
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Specifically on scaling objects and particle system I have some more checks, because I see a lot of scripts run those things on timers without actually changing the values
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: and that on mysql read all to compare... yeack.. not fan of that
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact that should be a db feature
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: to save disk writes
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reading the rows to compare them is still better than deleting them all and writing them anew. Writes kill disks more than reading
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel delete is fast :)
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With the changes to stop prims being marked changed needlessly though even that's reduced so it should only read things that actually changed in some way
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: and the damm delete its there bc main bad design
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: a bit hard to work around
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: looking forward to this update after it is sussed out
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: saves are per link set
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: and there is no simple way to delete some prims only
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: but to delete it all
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure. Rewriting the whole deal is better, but right now this seems like least destructive and most likely to work approach to reduce the pretty big write overhead
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact guess dbs do that anyways even when one changes a single filed
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: dbs work with full 4k buffers..
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: or more
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The code was doing an actual DELETE call followed by INSERT
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Save SSD lifetime and on HDD might even speed things up as the spinners aren't busy writing all the time
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well xome dbs
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That was meant to be a question.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: they work per clusters not bytes
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes the old primitems code would delete all rows for a prims inventory and then insert them again
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every time the prim marked as changed
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: well dbs do that
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So you scale it, it marked changed, rewrite entire prim inventory
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: or some dbs..
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just curious, if you drop 10 things in, will is rewrite 10 times?
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: just write a new cluster on any change and delete the old one
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Move a danceball with hundreds of animations, guess what it rewrites all those
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( some keep inclremental changes only for some time )
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: well a mess
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah we should reduce unnecessary saves to dbs
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins at the Dino
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: New code reads db, compares the items to what's on scene and then only updates the items that changed. If the db has an item that isn't on scene then it deletes just that
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats how it should have been
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun we even had old comments on code telling to be always better to alwaysa save... assuming a db save is just a simple call in code.. very light
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically replace does a delete and insert as well, so update on duplicate key would be better since that only sets the changed parameters, but since it already saves nuking everything and writing it back that alone has already massively reduced the load
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc with the current code structure a simple physical object moving a round triggers full saves
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean you can see on the commands graph how all the insert commands are basically gone and much less deletes as well
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: nc position and orientation are on same db block
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best approach would be writing primitems only if they have changed specifically, but that's a bit more work
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is almost done on core
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I agree this is maybe a bit akin to a bandaid, but a bandaid that reduces disk writes by 70% seems like not a bad idea
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well needs more work
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc has impact on all performance
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: compares and the jumps cost
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The writing is deferred through the backup routine, so it's not instant anyways and with less time spent writing stuff old HDD should have more time reading and providing data to users
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: the save dealy time could mb be retuned also
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ...delay..
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Coupled with the checks to prevent unnecessary setting as changed it should overall increase performance though
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We want to prevent telling the db to do something it doesn't need to do and in all other cases doing a read to compare is less impact than delete insert
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways.. things not that clear
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: for example a full delete and fresh write may be faster that read all, compare and then write all on a change
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: considering those are also comands on the other end of a net wire
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unless the db is on a different host then it's not going over network
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: and as i said, on same dbs, to delete and write fresh is faster
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a deferred routine, the speed doesn't really matter as it doesn't block other things in the process
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc unless there where really no changes.. then ofc it is a waste
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: but it is also a waste to send updates to all users, on same of the things..
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: so guess it is better to focus on that primary
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: like we did
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: Gavin says hi
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Deleting 100+ items out of a prim and adding them back into db is a lot more work for the db to do than to read. They are designed to read quickly and even cache those responses, writing is heavy, both software and hardware. Writes kill SSDs which is what prompted the whole thing. I saw an SSD report out of write cycles less than a year from brand new. It wrote 800TB of data in 270 days
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: he is debuggin things
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: well work in progress :)
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile we had oscc last weekend
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: videos of the presentations are been placed on YouTube
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It was a good event. I attended a lot of the panels.
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/@AvaConOrg/videos
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: soon to be placed on nice folder like previus ones at
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/@AvaConOrg/featured
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah Lyr, avacon and volunters made a great job, again :)
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well all now waiting for oscc2026
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: Nice.
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The Hypergrid Tour Two event was interesting. It had been a while since I had gone on one of the tours. We went to a really well done beach themed place first. It was a touch laggy due to the around 100+ scripted NPCs but still, it was brilliant. After that was the Expo center at Kitely.
[11:39 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Loved it
[11:40 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you, Ubit and Andrew
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you to Lyr and the staff of the OSCC.
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We appreciate it
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I enjoyed the sessions and thank you and Andrew for supporting them
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we want the community to recognize everyone's efforts...we are thankful for your hard work throughout the year
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, One thing I wondered about. Who does the music? There was one or two pieces I heard that I'd like to hear more of.
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the songs between sessions were Rhiannon's
[11:44 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think Sun Tzu organized the performers
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the music in the evenings and friday events on the OSCC MUsic stage were Sun Tzu's coordination with talented artists
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: depends on which music you mean *grins*
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll have to ask Rhinannon about that.
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, the songs between sessions came from Rhiannon
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( that you wanna date my avatar still in my ears )
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It was the segments between events I'm thinking about.
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me hugs all around
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes thought so
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: she played a mix, including game music
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: (https://www.google.com/search?q=date+my+avatar+song+youtube&oq=date+my+avatar+song+youtube&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIABBFGDkyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQABjvBTIHCAIQABjvBTIKCAMQABiABBiiBDIHCAQQABjvBTIHCAUQABjvBdIBCDgwODZqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:bf3fed73,vid:urNyg1ftMIU,st:0)
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I liked Pooky Amsterdam's video with that song, too... it's fine
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh its full of stars
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The black shape beside me made me thing the T-rex was passing by
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and thanks
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: haha
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks, Tampa
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that was a great model you created
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and 2 days of modeling... loved it
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm still getting caught up on life... and work *grins*
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we have events this week... a few came in on sunday
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and then the holiday party either next Tuesday or the following tuesday at 3 pm pacific at AvaCon for all
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The image actually didn't take that long, was just a pain to create a dummy display to render and snapshot it. What took two days was recording the entire OpenSim git history in 4k: https://bolderbay.net/stream/vod/gource.html
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it will be in the schedule... and I'll share it here at Core dev when it posts
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh yes, well data-driven models are what make it so very cool
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: without data... it is a lovely image *grins*
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm teaching business intelligence tonight...2 classes
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Joe, I saw Animats post from last year
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and the numbers this month...your forecast is very important
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: I don't forecast. I just look at the actuals.
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Maria reported over 1million grids in opensim with the osgrid experiments, etc.
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: if I understood correctly
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: (Is this about SL concurrency, or something else?)
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: residents logged in
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: from 50k in 2023 to 41k in 2024 to 30k Dec 1 2025
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it was about land area, not a million grids.
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: while that does not affect us, it means more are trying to preserve the experiences they love
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's it
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well take HGB with a grain of salt
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: knew i had a dimension off
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, multi tasking *grins*
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: My goodness. Could you imagine having a million grids.
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes ... even so, I was surprised
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i know
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: someone's gonna swat me later *laughs*
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Total Residents: 110111 Total Active Users: 18649 Total Regions: 99284 Participating Grids: 267
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's what I get for writing in several places at once
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: even so the 1 million caught my attention
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: indeed
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and yes, I was planning the Viewer and AI panels at the time. Will go over the videos later.
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: what we love about these spaces we wish to preserve and consider how to nurture them for future growth
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: One thing I noticed this year was that few panels had any live transcription going to open chat. It was a nice touch of past events. Not sure how many people logged would read them.
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm the one who normally live transcribes. Rhiannon did for Frank's echovoice content
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and Lisa had a script...several did...
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I pasted some of them in *grins*
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was always impressed seeing a live transcriptoin.
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: doesnt yt add its own cc _
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but it is not easy, planning, sitting on calls, moderating, and transcribing
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ?
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we were working on a project to get that capability in world...but it is still in progress
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On long live streams it might not unfortunately, perhaps if the panels get uploaded as their own videos
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: they where
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: you can see there one video per presentation
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: panels tend to be very spontaneous... the dynamic shifts as they begin *grins*
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then either it automatically does or you can set subtitles through the interface
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, James will be creating the individual videos and playlist over the next few weeks...
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember a time when there was a way to edit the captioning of YT videos I watched. I occasionally fixed up the text. That feature seems to have goe away.
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They removed that
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: past year's are online in playlists
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the transcript mode in YouTube is great
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i use captions all the time...
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/@AvaConOrg/featured lyr.Lobo
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: pardon me...being called to the door *smiles*
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess 2025 will he there soon
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are provided as actual srt as well, so if it automatically transcribes you can keep backups of it as well in case youtube .. when youtube explodes...
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: for now the are showing up one by one on https://www.youtube.com/@AvaConOrg/videos
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: 2026 will be here soon. Next meeting, gotta go.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 16th and 23rd, if the latter even happens
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: wow. Just like that we are at the top of the hour.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah time flies.. soon we will be talking about how great oscc 2026 was
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: back
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wb
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: when is the OSCC holiday party?
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it was great to see Turh Zane yesterday, who spoke about having over 50,000 students of various ages using Opensim on his opensim regions
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: 50,000? Nice.
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: quite a few pockets of use that are not indexed and tracked
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: he said 65,000, but after my faux pas with a million, i'm being conservative *grins*
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: will be chewing on my toes for that one *eyes twinkle*
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we do not report ours as well...amny who run private or research or educational grids do not
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry...I see that you are out of time
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thank you, dear ones, for your hard work
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me hugs all around
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *hugs*
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I see there are still a few events listed on the OSCC calendar for this year.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: There are events on December 13, 14, and 15 so check the calendar at conference.opensimulator.org
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: (cya next week )
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks, Andrew!
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: No mention of an OSCC Christmas related event.
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and the party next week or the following week
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: see ya!
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves and grind
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that will do it for another week.
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm off... mentally and physically *chuckles* Love you all
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to start planning panels for next years OSCC. ;)
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so true!
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: you too
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-12-02

2025-12-02T20:08:37Z

Tampa:

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: helloo
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: a wolf arrives :)
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi lyr wolf :)
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: had to update fs again to see you all :)
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: about fs.. how is your viewer going joe?
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just a few days away from the OSCC.
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah.. time fies
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *grins*
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FYI, on the subject of FS updates, nightly FS builds for Mac now have the native Apple GPU stuff, even the OS ones
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We'll be using Discord for voice this year
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and send it into world and to YouTube
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we have a live stream
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for all but the music venues and the HG Safari on Sunday
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://conference.opensimulator.org/ is the conference site with the program schedule
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: if anyone wants to host an event the week after the conference, there's a signup sheet on it
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Live on Youtube is the link next to Home
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: everyone is welcome
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: err the vip thing will still be on inwolrd vivox voice?
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: if Andrew cannot use voice in world, then I can ask to see if we can pipe discord into the VIP location over the music channel
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: (assuming that still worlhs there :) )
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well voice works there
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: (...and works)
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we used it for our training sessions, but it does not work when we get larger numbers
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivox voice doesn't work for me using FS under Linux but my mic does work with Zoom and other programs so there is something about FS. It has too many choices for the mic and I've tried them all but none work.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: The VIP gets crowded
[11:15 AM] Joe Magarac: Ah, me. Not much viewer work. Working on region impostor server. But the WGPU people finally fixed a locking bottleneck. Now I have to upgrade the viiewer through three versions of breaking changes. Probably a month of work.
[11:15 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: there is another event that starts before it as well
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: (thx joe)
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Joe.
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: brb. I have a cat calling me.
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Joe, you are always welcome if you want to join our Viewer panel. It is 12:30 PM Pacific time on Saturday. The VIP ends at 12:15
[11:17 AM] Joe Magarac: Thanks.
[11:18 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many do not realize that what they want is more of a viewer feature than a server side feature, which is one of the reasons we showcase the sessions. We want the community to understand and support the projects
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I am stepping up for Mal Burns, who we lost this summer. My heart is still heavy over his loss
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew have you tried the latest FS beta? There were some issues with voice in the past so maybe that helps. It could also be that one of those choices does work, but the system-side volume is zero. I checked how this looks on the mint box I have and it starts off that way, once a program takes control you then have to crank it up again
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: :(
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I saw the third party viewer meeting on YouTube by Pantera before Thanksgiving with some comments on WebRTC
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: on certain voice issues that remain. The work seems to be ongoing
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: well for sl
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: the best we have so far is robert work for linux
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but with Joe's interest in it, I have been watching
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but seems there is a issue with IMs
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me settles back to listen
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There was also the part about it lacking doppler shift for the vertical axis, which I mean we only figured that out 35 years ago so of course LL struggles with it
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yes Robert said he was finally able to reproduce the IM problem so hopefully he'll have an update soonish
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: jezz who cares abotu doppler on a viewr?
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: making voice harder to understand? duhh
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm hard of hearing so at least what I hear should be correct xD
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I usually go for the stable version of viewer. The beta versions have a limited shelf life and I might find it has expired just when I need to use it.
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: in same cases even 3d should be turned off
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I will give it a try. Can't be any worse of an issue than I have now.
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, that is a challenge. I test them to see if we have issues here and there
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm on the stable release at the moment for teh conference...but will switch later, Vincent
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok on opensim code changes... hmm there was a little one around parsing of service urls
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, the problem isn't that of volume. It is that the viewer doesn't light up the mic button at the bottom of the viewer. It acts like voice isn't avai.able.
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: and some trivial chenges.. some code kept trying to connect to a empty url string uff
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Andrew have tyou tried toggling the Voice checkbox in the mixer? On some versions that FIXES IT
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew you may have to restart the connection using that refresh button or even restart the viewer entirely, which granted is a bit of a chore
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We got a report last week over inventory in hg not working right, which apparently was solved by changing the whole uuid of the avatar. I would have liked to debug that more, but yeah code changes to give some insight as to the next time that blows up hopefully
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( service ursl are for hg. they are the urls of user home services
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did check logs and found a few instances of that 0 asset count despite it actually trying to transfer assets
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something funky going on, but this is somewhat common when people change urls and forget the srv urls in useraccounts don't change automatically
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that was one of the cases.. the region was connecting to a empty url
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: so logs are just wrong..
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: real cause of issue was not on logs
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Which either it cached that somewhere or never got it
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really strange issue
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: and not sure what it was
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile the user having that issue just changed the avatar and issue is gone
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least that reported case
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Annoyingly it doesn't output any more data with http debug either, the url is there at least, but from the http side to the service it gets lost somewhere
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess its av info got cached in damaged state on a few grids
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Must've, seems most logical, though why it would keep that around for so long is odd
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well service urls jump with you...
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: so a jump to a broken grid followed to a jump to other could propaget it...
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i can onlu guess the the data i have
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: sure we should have better validation.. but well...
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At the same time that cache shouldn't stick around for days either so yeah... voodoo
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Clearly not enough goat sacrifices
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: poor goats
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They know what they did!
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of sacrifices though. We still gotta work that primitems issue out before another disk meets its maker. I will put that code into production this week and see if I get any reports of broken things
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: disks makers don-t care.. will not meet the dead disks
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does it reduce disk writes that much?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 70%
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok significant
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/db-write-routine-test-2-results
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yes pls put in!
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: What are the risks of adding?
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is code in there to check if a value set data that is already set to that value, which is a bit iffy in some cases. I don't like adding too many if checks on stuff that's meant to be fast, so need to find a good balance. Also some stuff requires checking byte arrays and other structures that are difficult and cost intensive to check
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got like 3 things left in there that I'm a bit concerned with now, the rest is simple if not equals, but those 3 things are byte arrays and larger sets doing multiple variables that are just a brain pain to get right, fast and reliable
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: and one of those is alread checked for changes
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: details
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm have a report of broke collisions bounces on bullet since august, but could not repo
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Good idea to mantis that so others can try :)
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah reported prefered im .. pff
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: got no feedback on the sqlite changes
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: except it ill not run on older systems with outdated libc
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Testing through standalone, logins, prims, inventory all seemed to work so main things seem fine. Edge cases may blow up, but there isn't that many in the first place given it has no presence and such stuff
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Older systems that are long end of life, to clarify
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: edge cases always did blow up pff
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Keep your stuff updated people, it's sysadmin 101
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: that violates teh rule if not broken don-t fix it
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc current world is more about break if so get payed to fix it
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That only works if you consider RCEs as not a bug
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What really is a security vulnerability if not a more elaborate password reset routine...
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would be nice to add a OTP option to login like SL, but thats a whole other discussion...
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: opt?
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: One-time password app
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh more nonsense things
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: mfa also
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: They are a pain as you need access to the machine with the info you need to use the OTP app.
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yes true, the setup requires web page setup
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like the PayPal one that allows you to trust a device so you don't have to enter mfa again, because no one could possibly setup a trojan on that device... It's security theater for the most part
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me for stepping away... see you this weekend
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me tiptoes out, thankful for alll of you
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Lyr, see you soon
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: cya later lyr :)
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well I use the OTP feature on SL and it is good for security. probably a PITA to set up
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You could technically do this via the splash page alone in some way, but honestly first order would be for people to actually secure their setups with certificates
[11:57 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks.
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You mean like SSH keys?
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That too, but ssl mostly
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see, that authenticates the server is who they say they are.
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But not login security
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: github requires me to use OTP to login. If I don't have my desktop running I can't access the shell script I had to make that gets me the code I need to provide in order to login.. The shell script contains the magic strng needed by the OTP program. I don't consider OTP any more secure and in some ways less so as the special code is now in plain text in a file. My passwors aren't written down.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: i resist on moving into crap like that
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: github didn't exactly give me a choice.
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: y was not born with a crap mobile phone in forhead
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been moving my repos to gitlab.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I bought a yubikey years ago to setup that auth app, honestly not that big a deal, if my lazy ass can handle it so can you grown ups :P
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I use the Authy app.... works for me
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: dont rememebr how i lost most the afternoon and had to drive 30km etc bc lost logins to my stupid gov sites
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: one was bc the they decided to remove the bs app for auth and replace by another one
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: not telling anything..
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: the old app just crashes with no error..
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: bad choice of app lol
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: they pay for pure junk
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the top of the hour. About time to wrap it up for today.
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: anyway, not all that important, just wanted to chime in responding to comment about login security
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Look forward to seeing your around the OSCC this weekend.
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: and so fun... on the gov office hearing ppl telling ohh we are sorry the program crashed, you will need to return tomorrow
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: that is goverment modernization for you...
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: stupid apps that crash all the time
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Going to head out. See you all this weekend
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: oh yeah my rl also calls
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun :)
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week and this weekend.
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You too, Ubit.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-11-25

2025-11-25T20:11:12Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome :) [11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyways shall we begin the meeti..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome :)
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyways shall we begin the meeting
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have one of the original translucent Mac keyboards that was launched in 2000 with USB 1. Still works
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: very cool, Gavin
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm multi-tasking. It is time to start.
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I also have the original iPod with a 5 Gb harddrive
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mechanical
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm typing under difficulties as my cat is in front of my monitor partially blocking my view.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: well on code changes in added a patch with bugs from vicent..
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of it is even working code this time, I know shocker
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and from vincent also
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i didnt test :p
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: made a few changes here and there, cosmetics mostly
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did, well for the most part anyways. It's a pain with the different image formats. Basically I expanded the TIFF loader to use full 32bit floating points and be able to load some lesser formats as well. As TIFF can be used in most photo editors and it supports the format we use for heightmaps it seems like a good option. PNG and the others round or cutoff data because their format doesn't support 32 bit floats
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I also added some way to check if the terrain is so tall that a specific loader would cut off at 256 meters
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The big difference is that I shifted the the conversion to pixel grayscale down 256 points to account for negative terrain, so existing TIFF files might load much lower now
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think the benefit of finally having a format that is one to one with heightmaps internally and can be easily edited is worth it though
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This was originally part of a larger rework of the entire maptile system, generators and map service, but I pulled it out of there to make it easier to digest :)
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now the only open thing left is that primitems stuff that Ubit and I have to eventually agree on how to accomplish
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other commit news also did a fix for Postgresql
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apparently some code was trying to compare a string to a uuid or rather guid and that blew up logins
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ahh yes there was that also
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Went through postgres wrapper and checked it for that. Logins work again. Have not really checked much else. There was also a small bug in XAssets that got fixed
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably cause no one uses that it wasn't found
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: originaly uuids where stored as char36 like on mysql
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In postgres some still are, like on regionextra
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but then there was a change to use native uuid
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but not all code got the needed changes..
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think it was around postgres 15 or so they forced type comparison to be equal types, so comparing a string to a uuid blew up. Originally this came along with the certificate issue that was fixed a while back
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As I was trying to update it and check for newer postgres versions I ran into that login issue, but at the time thought it was the connector not the wrapper code
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm not really a fan of postgres but since we are keeping it, might as well get it working
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With sqlite now back working as well
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good work.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still have that rewrite on the migration pending that eventually should really go in there, but it still needs some fine tuning and testing
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I like postgres, but it take a bit to get used to
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what version did you test on you said?
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly it has ways we could use to make some queries a lot faster, but that's database tuning territory I'm not that familiar with
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 16 was originally one I couldn't get working, now tested with 18 and works
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So latest release
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has Vince
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That side of things has been neglected a lot and was originally written rather hastily from the looks of things so putting some effort into that, as everything is based on that data, is well worth it
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cool - I should upgrade from 15
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I thought you moved to maria?
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: me?
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yea
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for a short period and then back to MySQL proper
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or not back to, but to
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ah. Well if you have some optimizations we can stuff into postgres I'm all ears
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is materialized views which could be used many places rather than torture the tables like we do now
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Inventory and groups I presume?
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that similar to the Views you can get with MySQL?
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I been trying some things in maria, but couldn't really tell if it was faster or not
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just throw a lot of memory at it for table caching, that seems to help the most
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure if the community version of MySql has materialzed views
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have to check
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yes Vincent, but also for search
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you aggregate data from multiple tables in a materialized view and then run the such on it
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: search*
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The reason that is currently insanely slow is because the tables are not the same charset, making any join operations require data conversion which takes forever
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unify them all to the same charset and inner join will be less than a second
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Banged my head against a wall for an hour on that one
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, but the material view is updated on write, so it is a fast as a table search
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh yeah that's definitely still faster
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I see different charsets on tables now and then. Don't know how that seems to reoccur at times.
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I unified everything to uft8mb4 and called it a day
[11:41 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Why mb4 vs one of the unicode ones?
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Far as I know it can handle all the latin1 stuff and even though it's pretty heavy on data it should allow for all the weird stuff the db sees
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The latin stuff would be breaking on some unicode too, utf8mb3 as well, mb4 seems to have no issues with that stuff
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Search found 33 results completed in: 0.04070019721984863 seconds
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say that's fast enough for a search query with 4 inner joins
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is this thing called scaling ;-)
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is the websearch on zw, which has to search 3500+ users, dozens of blog posts, places, classifieds and such
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that there is a ton of data to search to begin with, parcel sales and events are empty
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I meant concurrency with many users, such as a big grid
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the db being hammered by other queries and writes at the same time
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just throw more hardware at the problem /s
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think at the usual OpenSim scales it'll not have any trouble, but I could try benchmarking it
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: db writes are usually quite slow regardless of hardware
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And a disk killer
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: @Vincent, ok. I thought the unicode ones were like that too.
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: utf8mb4 general_ci everywhere, fields and table. So far I haven't seen anything break. It does use more data, but with it being uniform so many queries are faster and there is lots of useful information to gain joining things. With different charsets those queries can take minutes
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is no point on using utf9 on many things
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: or even utf8
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: uuids only use ascii
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm just using the unicode for my standalone as I don't have to deal with characters outside those of English.
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: also several other things are ascii only by spec
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry, do we support emojies?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: so utb8 is pure waste
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah a lot of unicode icons are now in
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: UTF-8
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes utf-8 also :)
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me nods and smiles
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I found the uniformity easier to use for special queries and really it doesn't waste that much extra space. A tradeoff I'm willing to make
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah 4 times more space... slower compares.. etc
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in Postgres record are 8k anyway so usually there are plenty of space
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: sure some dbs devs also thing all should waste cpu on mb4 and make crap code on other options
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of slow behavior isn't really down to the mb4 use though and would actually benefit joining data on the db level rather than in code
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: not really gavin.Hird
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is 8k for every thing but blobs
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and they are stored separate from the rest of the record
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can even go on their own disks
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: we did had size issues on same tables already
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can fine tune these things till the cows come home, but really for most things you just want it compatible and not worry about any minor chance in unicode immediately exploding your db
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are a few minutes before the top of the hour. Let's hold the DB topics for just a moment.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: so move all to mb4 is just plain wrong
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just about a week and a half from the OSCC weekend.
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The table scale issue has somewhat gone away as the reduction in data sizes implemented into most db software has reduced record size slightly
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: problems are on still incoerent tables
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc the mysql mb3
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: that does not support some chars ppl decide to need :p
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: mb3 is just useless when it comes to char support
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it covers most uses
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Annoyingly not all and those edge cases keep popping up
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wait a moment please.I'm checking with Lyr whether there is anything she wants to say about the OSCC now that we are almost there.
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we have 3 live music and dances on Friday, Dec 5th beginning at Noon Pacific and the conference opens Saturday at 7 am with the Core Dev panel. The VIP is at 11:45 am. I gave you my view of the schedule. The official program is online at https://conference.opensimulator.org/
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you, dear friends. I am sorry that I must dash. We will have a live stream on YouTube on the AvaconInc channel and welcome you to join us. It is a community event and you make our community possible *hugs*
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We'll use Discord for voice and pipe it into the music stream
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and to YouTube.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: oh my rl calls also :)
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care...see you next week
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We love you and thank you for your hard work.
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me cheers
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great week! Join us at any of the events and celebrate with us
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have fun! I'm heading to class *waves*
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did talk to FS this week as well regarding that long gone interests tab in the profile as I was hoping it could make a return in order to use the data in there for building a translator right into OpenSim, but it seems that's unlikely as the work involved in getting that back is just too much
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That leaves the question what to do with the data in the database though
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was planning to ask a question about voice in Firestorm. I have not been able to talk in world for the past two years.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( bte main performance issues of mb4 is on indexes.. where thay are int32 basicly )
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm running Linux Mint 21.2
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, voice is still there far as I can tell Vivox haven't turned it off
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You may need to update your viewer, there were some issues with voice on unix based systems
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The Welcome region over on zw has some parcels with voice if you want to test it
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've tried all the voice setting options in Firestorm. None work when I tested at the Staff Zone in the OSCC grid. I can hear just fine.
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok ppl my rl calls. See you all next week if not before >(
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I should go too
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a good week everyone
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-11-18

2025-11-18T20:09:01Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:800..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Ubit
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We had some code changes this past week. Ubit, would you like to say something about them?
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The cause for those changes was I finally got around to setting up the virtual machines for database testing
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to say that some of the changes were related to SQLite.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sqlite or should say SQLite I guess didn't quite work. Case sensitivity be damned
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That should now work properly on Linux and from what I can tell works fine on mac as well using the system version of sqlite
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't normally test sqlite on macOS but happy to if somebody requests
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: git os a bit confusing on filenames caps on win versus linux
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: i chnaged caps on win, win mostly ignored ot
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: a a poing git decided to push 2 files, one per each cap..
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel managed to fix it
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway the new libs will not work on older versions of libc
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Old as in on systems that are end of life anyways
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: needs libs from 22 or so
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Postgres meanwhile on version 18 just straight up explodes on the guid != uuid thing
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So that's... not sure how to fix that yet
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mariadb in its latest version so far seems fine, but I have not done much runtime testing, only starts and logins
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Question is then do we kick mysql to the curb and go mariadb or try to keep both compatible?
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do not kick mysql
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: mb try another connector that can do both
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maria is not available n all platforms, mysql is
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: maria recommends on.. need to see
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Where is maria not available?
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: zx spectrum for sure
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: macos is only available through a package manager, not directly from devs
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stability questioned
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so mysql better for now
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think there is anything but a half assed installer for macOS while Oracle keeps the macOS version of mySQL current
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no plans to remove mysql ofc
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: correct
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maria seems to be the Linux path
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: just need a connector that can do both
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: well even with all the mess ms is doing on win, linux is getting more dead
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how so?
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ppl left win 10.. tested linux and went install win 11
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: buying a new box some
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just upgraded to mySQL 8.4.7 on macOS which is their LTS version, and it seems to be doing fine
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no shocker there as half of their apps cannot run on Linux
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends which distro of Linux they tried and what they want to do with their computer.
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: several dev companies gave up linux support
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh ll was one :)
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: distros are what kills linux..
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they still push linux related commits
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL does
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: or big part of reason
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: thats fs code i guess
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's desktop side of things though
[11:22 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You need distros. The average person isn't going to build up a full system for themselves.
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: no.. you ONE distro that works
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: not a mess of imcompatible ones
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: all broken
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit is on a Linux hate train as of late
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: well nothing new
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is there not to hate, haha
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: linux only works as server
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and for specific things also
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: windows doesn't work either way, windows server 2025 is awful
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you try 2 many things like apache replacements.. etc.. it jsut fails
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I could use the Debian 13 desktop out of the box, but the total inability to run any of the apps I use every day makes it a showstopper
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Same
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: not even pdfs one can read reliably... bahh
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can say the same about Win11 though, half the older software I use just fails to run or has runtime crashes
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: qavimator for example
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeha even so a lot better
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure what MS is smoking lately
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: qavimator hasn't had an upgrade for decades
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: despite ms effords.. win11 is still a lot better than linux
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if they stopped contaminated it with AI and ads
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Eh, at this point mac os is starting to look like an alternative and I have been a windows child for 20 years
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc untli they totally kill local accounts and turn it a shopping terminal
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Come to the dark side
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel part of problem is ms coping apple
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It all depends on what you want/need to do with it. I still find it easier to do a number of things in Linux than Windows. It runs programs for the things I need to do. I've never had a problem reading a PDF file.
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bright side you mean
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ssshhhhh
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw does the new sqlite work on macs ?
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We could debate the pros and cons of Linux and/or Windows all day long and not come to a consensus. Let's save further discussion on that topic for today.
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: both x86 and arm ?
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given that Canonical can't fix libgdiplus and debian keeps trying to kill itself I honestly feel like maybe TempleOS is the only option
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Do we have anything else to talk about regarding Open Simulator?
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I haven't tested sqlite no macos recently
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: andrew i did change the topic already >;
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried getting the brew version uninstalled. I think managed that and then compiled and ran with sqlite just fine
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not when I typed my comment.
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No runtime tests though apart from logging in
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: was just going to ask that, no unit tests
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh no idea when i get pacience to look to that
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: what we have is pure trash now
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't normally test sqlite but happy to, just ping me on Discord if you need to test something Mac
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Logging in means inventory works among a few other things that get poked during that, usually if something fails it explodes at that point already, especially when the connector is the issue
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it is basicly running a stanalone with defaults
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was about to say Ubit
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, just make sure if you test with it that you don't have a version of it installed via brew or something else
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: the new thing only looks for native libs with e_sqlite in name
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( it can use a sqlite lib if renamed to that )
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: the ones shiped may also fail to work on older macs etc
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel lopr win
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: i only tested on updated win11
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hmm I do have sqlite installed with brew for some other sw dependency
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but on win one mostly only needs to install a older vc runtime
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: like happens with ubode etc
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it might even get installed with libgdiplus
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK, the brew installed version is "keg-only" meaning it is not symlinked, so not accessible except for the other packages that hard-code its location
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: php and python
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So Opensim should be ok
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll confirm this week
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ty
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've still been busy with some work stuff so I haven't had time to dig in to some of the issues with libgdiplus. It passed its unit tests until I built it with some additional pango support then it fails three tests.
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 3? Jeez it should only be failing the font one
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: One was font related. There were two others. I will see if I saved the build messages.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: testemfcodec and testgraphicsfill both dump core.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: huh I only had that with the last github one, not the winehq one, strange
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK sqlite fails on a build from Nov 10. Checking current master...
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah great.. pff
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: what error?
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, it is better than it used to be. I remember having lots more problems.
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: couldn;t find the dylib
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well the config file needs to have the right caps
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ie System.Data.SQLite.dll.config
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( originally i pushed as System.Data.SQlite.dll.config lower case 'L'
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Still get error on trunk
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 11:51:03 - Fatal error: System.Exception: Could not find a storage interface in the given module OpenSim.Data.SQLite.dll
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: when trying to load groups
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: stanalone as no groups
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: has
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well I tried my old .ini, that might be the problem
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: let me redo
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: just ging to use the .ini.example
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok its working on a vanilla OpenSim.ini
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok thats on a Silicon Mac
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: want a test on Intel?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well standalone may have groups with mysql
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: issue is really no no groups on sqlite
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: whne you can can test, yes ty
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: How do I check with sqlite lib it is using?
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: which*
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: losof
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: rename the one on lib64 :)
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lsof
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: but this should only look for a native lib named *e_sqlite*
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lsof - list open files
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dotnet 55794 cuga txt REG 1,13 1661200 46313619 /Users/davidray/opensim/bin/lib64/libe_sqlite3_OSX_arm64.dylib
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: thats it :)
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: working :)
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ty
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so its not using the system one, using the one in distro
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other fast issue?
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: btw no idea about rasp pi
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway i thinl i have a typo on same config file .. will push a fis one day
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( it has arm-64 on the cpu name,. it should be arm64, i think )
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just a reminder we are getting close to the weekend for the OSCC.
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway as i said a above, it can run with a any recent sqlite native lib, as long it it renamed to add the 'e_'
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: well and possible named libe_sqlite3-arm64.so
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: arms are worse then linux.. more models than linux distros :)
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but you can get a card with like 64 processors on it
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok see you next week, if not before
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit.
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Guess I'm heading out too. Have a good week all
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right everyone. next week
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That brings this session to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you next week.
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-11-11

2025-11-11T20:20:50Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some reg..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some regulars aren't here yet. I'll wait a couple minutes before get started.
[11:03 AM] Joe Magarac: OK
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't today a holiday as well?
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We might as well start although we are few in numbers this week.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is it?
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No clue, I don't live in the outside world, it's scary and cold
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a federal holiday where I am so goverment and the post office get the day off. The rest of us don't.
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jagga.
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much to report on the code changes side but there were a few commits. The first one of this past week was regarding mantis #9219.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sqlite continues to be annoying to deal with
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What are the main issues with it?
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel actually that is a big change.. may break things
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Difficulty in handling database migrations?
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hence the part of the commit message saying itneeds testing.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: replacing code fom 2007 by code of 2025..
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: or mb 2015..
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: well a bit old
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did made a standalone, did load a oar, made avatar inventory changes, and saw no issues
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh right that's likely going to merge conflict with the new migration system, damn, well that'll be fun to fix
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc no one tells that most those code changes they made on the libs where more useless than cosmetics )
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, yeah. Merge conflicts are always fun... not. :P
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: but tjhe older code we did use had hidden dependencies on .net 3.5
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: that ms is removing
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: as reported on that mantis
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: sqlite is a strange mess
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: On the one hand it's good to upgrade things once in a while to stay compatible, on the other it's hidden changes possibly breaking the connectors so needs testing
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: but wel l what isnt this days
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did look through their changelog a while back to see if there was anything breaking, thankfully apart from the case sensitivity there was not much that impacts code
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sqlite is something I question on a more general basis though. It is easiest to setup for users, but more difficult to maintain and ultimately not something for production use. So the question is does it make sense to even have it as option or should it, like so much other software, have a database install as basic requirement
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A user unable to figure out how to install a database likely won't be able to properly administrate
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: sqlite should be fine and a nice option for standalones
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In the end it's not just the person using it, but also everyone else that may join a grid. I feel some responsibility to make sure those people are impacted negatively by bad administration
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: the way .net world messes it, is the problem
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I agree, for standalones in isolation it is an okay option, but some do use it in production
[11:22 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I think you missed a "not" in that statement.
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: Opensim is not just for grid owners on linux
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: standalones are a big part..
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: and many of those have no use for mysql or post...
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is a question of how much as developers we feel responsible for the users of users
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just feel a sense of dread when I think about that, cause it all too often is spun as negative reflection on code quality or design when a lot of it comes down to poor administration
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Blaming Ubit for code he didn't even write
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Perhaps I'm jaded cause I see so much negative impact of all that out in the wild along with the folks spewing nonsense as facts
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least when I get around to finishing the schema files for it the new migrations can be merged in and it'll at least stop folks from making bad edits to their databases
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fact there is no enforcement or warning of that is scary
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best case service just fails to load, worst case data gets corrupted
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bad charsets can cause prims not to store correctly for example
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of which, that's still in works as well, so hopefully some time this year those fixes go in... once Ubit has stopped cringing at my code :)
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Joe, you said you were looking to open source Sharpview right? Is that still the plan?
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, I still need to do that. I'm currently working on the back end for region impostors, and all that's open source.
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: Anyone want to help?
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Neil has shown interest in helping with it. He is looking to make it easier for new users to get inworld and have a more streamlined experience
[11:33 AM] Joe Magarac: Does he know Rust?
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure, but given his resume he can likely learn it
[11:34 AM] Joe Magarac: (We should do this out of the meeting)
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: His interests are more along the lines of web viewer things, which in my view isn't the best option, but I think something like Sharpview has the best chance of creating a better onboarding experience for users given it can still be changed
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS and other LL viewers are pretty stuck in ancient ui structures
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There have been attempts to update, or otherwise, change the UI of a viewer but those experiments haven't gone very far.
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have you seen the code in there? It's brainfcuk and a half
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just trying to add the interests tab back into profiles I got lost pretty much immediately
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I did see some of it way back when I had my first attempts to compile the viewer code. Definitely not pretty.
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Make a small change, hit compile, everything explodes
[11:42 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure what else we have to talk about today.
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No news from Canonical on libgdiplus so far either. Still open bug report -.-
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *throws table*
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I still haven't been able to find a way to run a program that uses that library and get useful debugging information when the program crashes.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Best bet may be to concentrate on getting it to pass its own unit tests.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: and to clean up the compiler warnings. There are some legitimate concerns behind a few of the warnings.
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've still been too busy on some work stuff to pursue the issues.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It also depends on other things like pango, where I think the issue actually sits, but compiling that...
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C is just not my thing
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is mine. I've built GIMP from source along with various of its dependencies in the past (ie. glib, gtk, Cairo, and Pango).
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgdiplus/+bug/2069473
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What I have seen of libgdiplus there are serious issues in its code base before needing to look at how it interacts with other libraries.
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean it otherwise works, bad as it is
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think it's something in how it calls up pango or in pango itself that just returns null
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is prone to crashes.
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I couldn't break it any further, always came back to the pango call failing
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried finding the old version of pango used for the focal build, but getting that installed in latest ubuntu probably breaks all sorts of things
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, which version do you need?
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd have to look again, been a few weeks since I tried this. mono still has a version of libgdiplus for focal that works fine in ubuntu, it's the versions shipped with the distro that are broken
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm guessing because something in pango changed and no longer works with how it is called
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So I wanted to fetch older pango-dev and compile it so I could then point libgdiplus at that, much like how the focal version was built, which btw passes all its tests
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have that situation with Banshee. The libraries it uses changed over time and the code needs to adapt to those changes.
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have the source for 1.44.7 on my machine but that may be newer than you want. I don't think it would be too hard to find the older versions.
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To find no, but to get them onto a ubuntu noble compiled and working is more difficult cause it has so many small things it depends on
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still hope Canonical gets their head out their ass and fixes it
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: winehq version of libgdiplus, they know where the bug is, but have no fix for it either
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The gitlab repo for pango is https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/pango and a collection of past versions can be seen at https://download.gnome.org/sources/pango/. There are versions going all the way back to 0.20
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I looked at some 1.4x version of it since there are minimal versions libgdiplus wants for that as well
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying the oldest minimal supported version to avoid whatever the problem with the current version is basically
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you could fix just that problem you could dunk on Canonical pretty hard :) hint hint nudge nudge
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I need it to be stable first
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's apparently a single call to pango that fails, all other things seem to work fine, it's just that one call to get the compiled font collection that returns no data
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://gitlab.winehq.org/mono/libgdiplus/-/issues/4
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted it only has a small impact in OS as this only breaks system fonts so you are basically limited to the few fonts it has hardcoded, but obviously other applications with custom fonts break entirely
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Keepass especially having a font so you can tell l apart from I in passwords is kinda important
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We'll see if next years release breaks it further at which point may have to bounty that
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have grabbed copy of libgdi pointed to by winehq and will compare it to the version I have to see which one is the latest.
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is linux.. ofc things break
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You are mistaking it for Windows now xD
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: and you are luck we dont try to display things :)
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well the dynamic texture font rendering does kinda depend on this, it just means any system installed font fails to show up if they are specific types
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think if they are just image fonts they work, it's the svg ones that break or something like that
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah but does not try to display it on the region machine
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: bet that would just smoke
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I already had downloaded the library from winehq. I just pulled and most of the changes are related to tests.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: maybe ms does have a good reason to not try to maku a .net ui apoi for linux
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: only win and mobiles
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: (maui )
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Using ms and reason in the same sentence....
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel in .net context
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( if you ask them they will tell .net is not ms pff)
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd be shocked if half the management there finds their own parking spot at the end of the day
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They probably just wait for everyone else to leave
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: even with the win10 issues, seems linux is losing users
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: and most run linux to run wine
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wine only gets you so far.
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm staying on 10 until 11 works properly, so for the next 4+ years at least
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah reason why many just went back buyin a box to run win11
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's the productivity software that is most difficult to get running, most games outside of the ones you shouldn't be playing anyways, work fine
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: sad.. but linux is just 2 broken for desktop
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not more broken than Win11
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: and libgdi is part of that mess
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: nah win11 is a lot better
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: at least stil is
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Having used it and mac os, nah 11 is ass
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: i can plau nms on it :p
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: play also
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: can you test the sqlite changes on yr apple silicon thing?
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... current libgdiplus from winehq compiled with a lot less nasty looking warnings vs when I last compiled it back in October. This version even passed all of its unit tests.
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah I will at some point, best remind me of that again. I have to setup FS compile on it as well at some point
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: fs compile is a bit harder than opensim :)
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: heh "bit" heh...
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops rl calls
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ did give me his compile setup so easier, but arm still be fun
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: i do compile fs...
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: it makes my 13900 fail unless i cut threads usage
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: pfff
[12:18 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: :)
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok, see you here or there..
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Getting a viewer to compile on my machine was quite the task.
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit.
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: fs instructions do wokr
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: well i never did got the sound lib
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good time to call this gathering to a close. I hope we will be back to regular strength next week.
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya :)
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are only about one month away from the OSCC now.
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

GridInfo/de

2025-11-07T21:52:27Z

Manni: Created page with "{{Quicklinks|GridInfo}} Das '''GridInfo-Protokoll''' wurde von [http://mjm.game-host.org/opensim:viewer:contents mana janus] vorgeschlagen, um die Autokonfiguration von Client..."

{{Quicklinks|GridInfo}}
Das '''GridInfo-Protokoll''' wurde von [http://mjm.game-host.org/opensim:viewer:contents mana janus] vorgeschlagen, um die Autokonfiguration von Clients zu erleichtern. Mit dem GridInfo-Protokoll muss ein smarter Client nur die URI des User-Servers oder des Standalone-Servers haben und kann dann Parameter wie die Willkommensseite, die Helper-URI (für das Wirtschaftssubsystem), den Namen des Grids und andere Informationen automatisch abrufen.

Das Abrufen der GridInfo ist lediglich ein einfacher HTTP-GET-Aufruf an /get_grid_info, entweder auf die URL des Standalone-Servers oder auf den User-Server des Grids:
<pre>% GET http://127.0.0.1:9000/get_grid_info | xml_pp
<gridinfo>
<login>http://127.0.0.1:9000/</login>
<gridname>the lost continent of hippo</gridname>
<mode>standalone</mode>
<register>http://127.0.0.1/register</register>
<platform>OpenSim</platform>
<help>http://127.0.0.1/help</help>
<about>http://127.0.0.1/about/</about>
<welcome>http://127.0.0.1/welcome</welcome>
<gridnick>hippogrid</gridnick>
<password>http://127.0.0.1/password</password>
<economy>http://127.0.0.1:9000/</economy>
</gridinfo>
</pre>
Dies wurde von dem folgenden [GridInfo]-Abschnitt "generiert":
<pre>[GridInfo]
; login uri
login = http://127.0.0.1:9000/
; login page
welcome = http://127.0.0.1/welcome
; helper uri
economy = http://127.0.0.1:9000/
; web page of grid
about = http://127.0.0.1/about/
; account creation
register = http://127.0.0.1/register
; help
help = http://127.0.0.1/help
; password help
password = http://127.0.0.1/password
; long grid name
gridname = "the lost continent of hippo"
; short grid name
gridnick = "hippogrid"
</pre>
Werfen Sie einen Blick in OpenSim.ini.example, um alle GridInfo-Optionen zu sehen --- beachten Sie, dass Sie dort zusätzliche Schlüssel hinzufügen können, sie werden automatisch in die Antwort aufgenommen.

HINWEIS: Der Konfigurationsort für GridInfo hat sich geändert.

* In den Versionen 0.6.9 und darunter findet es sich in OpenSim.ini
* In Version 0.7.0 fehlt GridInfo. Bitte aktualisieren Sie auf 0.7.0.1 oder neuer
* In Version 0.7.0.1 und neuer befindet es sich für Standalones in StandaloneCommon.ini und für Grids in Robust.ini

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-11-04

2025-11-04T20:12:59Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:00 AM] Ubi..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It was a few days after last meeting that I was reminded of the clocks changing. I forgot to mention that last week
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Cueball. I don't recall seeing you here before.
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: i i also wanted to tell and forgot
[11:01 AM] Cueball White: It's the first time in a very long time haha
[11:02 AM] Cueball White: I've been meaning to come but always forget LoL
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, np.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I had originally planned to get here at the start of the previous hour in case anyone showed up then for the meeting.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Got tied up with some work stuff so I wasn't able to log in then.
[11:04 AM] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hey everybody
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh no.. lazy opensim devs.. no code changes last week!
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Busy reviewing code submissions ;)
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I noticed that too. :)
[11:04 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: /me shakes head in disbelief
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That never happens, does it? ;)
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: well why change perfect code?
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: coff coff coff
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me laughs
[11:05 AM] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: :-)
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can always make some AI improve it
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: lets us first see if AI can grow some hair on yr av head
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Grows hair on arms instead more likely
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:07 AM] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: no you let it write the rough then you improve that
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a few sliders and that is done. Not AI required. 2004ish tech
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Good morning :)
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hair looks the same age tbh
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm dan told me that some virus things gave false positives on ubode.dll and bullet
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: one antivirus on a list of 60
[11:07 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Good evening
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems that same antivirus made in india, reports same 'virus'on a lot of programs
[11:08 AM] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: I use it everyday can't trust it as far as you can throw it
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does come to mind how india is also a big place for internet scammers
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems scamming is a big industry there
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe gets paid each time it flags something... like Sophos
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make India a LAN with no connection to the outside
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: so ón google' several do question that antivirus..
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: mcafee 3.0 huh
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wouldn't be the first time an antivirus program gave out a false positive and it won't be the last.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: but seems that windows defender of a short time also did report a diferent issue on the current osgrid zip
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. for a short..
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I wonder which platform of DLLs it flagged
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: it where the ones for windows
[11:11 AM] Cueball White: I really don't miss having to have anti virus software chugging away
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have never had anitvirus installed ever
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on macOS
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: defender fornd wormthing on some other file, but only of a a few days
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only time I had one infection was with a primitve floppy virs
[11:12 AM] Cueball White: I've been on Linux since about 1998
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess a false positive they did fix
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: None here either. They are regarded as poison by the Mac community
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed Cuga
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: so you have no idea what virus you have since 1998 :p
[11:13 AM] Cueball White: Haha yeah
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw the report was https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/cefedec795a8091ca8da44196c1a0c703c2974a18324769e139766ab39300e9d/relations
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: i had to scan ubode.dll there and the antivirus reporting was one called MaxSecure
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: some coments abotu that at
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.reddit.com/r/antivirus/comments/rz7gzn/maxsecure_the_antivirus_i_dont_recommend/
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: things about india ( or pakistan) scammers
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58JqGuclqng
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: dlls might contain something that looks like self-unpacking code, in reality just a matrice for some physics boundary box
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats not the original video, was originally from the guy who made the Glitterbomb
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure virustotal even has the capacity to really find the nasty things these days anyways
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh tons of similar vidoes
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yea
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems virus total stores scans made by othe things
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Someone should make an Indian avatar
[11:22 AM] Cueball White: LoL
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Might even have one among us. There are good people everywhere
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: well india is a big country with tons of good thigns
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: specailly on those few little towns that used to be portuguese :)
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So there's excitement in the Mac community about new LL viewer running native Apple GPU code. They released the code and Firestorm is planning to add in future release
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I had a text chat with a FS dev yesterday
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how did they release to code?
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: separate repo?
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don;t know, but FS dev says they have it and will be added in future release
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: or a port of the mobile viewer to mac ?
[11:26 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not the upcoming one which is almost ready
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Good question
[11:27 AM] Cueball White: Mobile viewer? One exists?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is Unity... so suports a lot of systems
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I tried the LL viewer, its the same regular LL UI not the horrible iPad one
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah SL only
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure there is any need for much separate code - maybe
[11:27 AM] Cueball White: Ahh don't care about that haha
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maybe
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it give margial performance increase, because the rendering is not running any faster than before
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can'r assume S only, I'm trying to get more info on that
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: SL*
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal viewer is deep glued to opengl
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah I don;t know how they did it
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: univerasl binary so you build the same code for two arch
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: while engines like unity have a api layer on top of that
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Replacing something like that is not that hard in itself, getting working well is a different story
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: that laywer does convert to d12 or opengl or metal etc
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh it is hard LOL
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its all client side stuff so no reason it wouldn't work for OS viewer. Whether it;s licensed for that is another story
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: even basics like XYZ orientations are diferent
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: soem are not even LHS
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well details
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it might of course be that LL give FS the code for a SL viewer in the same way they give them free access to KDU, Havok and other libraries
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: teh mobile one as made by adam frisby
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: they where on last oscc
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel one that chate with Mal
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..on that..
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should just drop the facade and go full casino mode, cause let's be honest that's why they want a mobile viewer, to cash in on that gambling trend
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol casino mode
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I been watching the sl wiki changes and they been adding people to that list, unsurprisingly
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Money talks
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and your L$ will be gone
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun how philp tells things like FS is sl UI
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: bet ll viewer team feels great reading that
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning?
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not the sharpest tool in the box that one
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Taking everything out of LL with a bucket of salt these days
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: FS is great.. but it is like 99%(?) ll code
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok mybe 98% only
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pretty much
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw how is dayturn going ?
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: XUI xml is different
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: limping along :-)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I added some code last week
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: now that you have win running again.. >(
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, that is a true wun!
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: win*
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the chances last week did compile also for windows
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so yea
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Until MS breaks something again
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: well currently FS seems the most complete and reliable viewer for opensim and sl
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: win 10 us EOL, so no changes to be expected here
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless they still upgrade the compiler
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: even so, strange to read a big LL guy or the LL guy telling that in front of his viewer dev team
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( on the last video of the TPV meeting i seen )
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hopefully not, I didn't give them 30 bucks to also break the last working windows version out there
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I tried to get the extended update, but it just barfed out on MS login so fuck all of that
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: pay 30 bucks for 1 year of not so fresh bugs?
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just ran a powershell script which worked, course they'd fuck up their own enrollment process
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What's the alternative? Go to Win11 and deal with ten times the bugs, nah
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: must be what I have experienced
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most likely done on purpose
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to dissuade users from trying and upgrade to 111
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 11
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: well some ppl are very happy running win XP inc US military :)
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 111 - when will that be?
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had no issue using 7 quite frankly, was actually very usable, 10 less so
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Windows 2024 will come out in 2026 (jk)
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: MS now also messing with visual studio
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it?
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They just can't leave shit alone, gotta break it all
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: win 10 was supposed to be the last win...
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will be for me
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They never officially said that, but was implied
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess it actually was.. win11 is turning into a cloud client
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Win11 is something I wouldn't even flush down the toilet for fear it might clog it or break a pipe
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I deleted my last Windows install last week
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel im on 11 :)
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: F
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all your opensim code will be sucked over to MS and used to train some AI
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: stil with local accout.. no secure boot, no blitlock.. wel i hope it is still off
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So that's why copilot sucks, it read all the os code xD
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it is on github so already suck by their AI
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have anything that could run Win11. I have 10 on one laptop as I do occasionally need Windows for some very niche things. I also have XP and 10 in separate virtualbox instances.
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when AI generated commits comes with the commit message "cosmetics" whe know which code it was trained on
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least that code would be better than what it currently spits out
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Gavin
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: Lyr :)
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I should throw that skiasharp stuff at it see if it can make more sense of it, chatgpt failed at it pretty spectacularly
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr. Didn't know if we were going to see you today.
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, juggling during the last week of classes
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: arrived at the right moment... the End
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: hihiih
[11:52 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, one more week to go before clocks change across the pond.
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Well, our OpenSimulator Community Conference schedule is tentatively set, and the Speaker letters are going out
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our clocks already changed here. Didn't realize they have a delay
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:53 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thought they were a week ago or so
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All clocks have changed Andrew
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last week was an hour early for EU
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now back to normal
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, and Sunday was our fall back
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: All? The schedule changed. There used to be a two week delay between NA and EU changing clocks.
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: they keep moving the date *smiles*
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: They as in here
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: actual it is still one houe early
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tarrifs
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: as sometimes it is October and sometimes, first Sunday in November
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not every year, it's different as it's based on different methods
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: now just also fo r usa :)
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, I worked through the extra hour ...
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I read that the US has made first step in stopping the nonsense. A bill has to pass the House before clock changing in the US will stop.
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: aha - MAGA time
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Heaven forbid the world could agree on a single date for that
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, the Senate passed a bill, I do believe
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: They have been trying to make bills to stop it for 20 years
[11:55 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: In any event, for anyone who sent in a proposal, we extended the call for proposals, so I will be a day later with the acceptance letters. A few went out last night and more today and tomorrow.
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, Right. I haven't seen any mention of when it might go before the House. I think the US government is mostly shutdown right now so it will be a while yet before the bill may get voted on.
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks! Registration is open for those who register. If not, all are welcome even without registration
[11:57 AM] Cueball White: Must be off. Take care all.
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is baffling, Andrew
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks Lyr looking forward to it
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Cueball
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great week
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cueball. Thanks for dropping by.
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks, Cuga
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: What I don't understand is "I want permanent Daylight savings time"
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the update on the OSCC. Only about one month away now.
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We can't have that here as it will be dark till 10.30 mid winter
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we would have to be on winter time always
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If DST means the clock stay ahead an hour, that's what I want. I like it to stay light late(r) in the day.
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, it is December 6-7, OSCC 2025
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: think winter time is closer to sun time
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sunlight is too bright anyways, eternal darkness is bliss
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is Ubit
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: marking calendar
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles at Tampa
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm squinting as we speak
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good point. I don't know if I have put it on my wall calendar yet.
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, we open with the Core Dev session
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If people dont like real time, then adjust your own sleep/wpork schedule
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I probably won't be at the VIP session. I don't know what has happened but some time back it seems that the FS viewer broke my ability to use inworld voice.
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well, you are always welcome
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: At least I think it is the viewer since I have several other programs that have no issue with using a mic.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Update to the latest beta, there was an issue with voice in a few versions
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We will have a viewer panel...currently assembling it if anyone is interested. *smiles*
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: A viewer panel has been a staple at OSCC in the past. IIRC, there wasn't one last year.
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: For those who saw the Hypergrid Survey, the results will be shared Saturday morning
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I'll check it out.
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hope you can get FS devs
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure there is much more to be said /sarc
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well lets see if Vivox is still up next month :)
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: any new movement on Vivox?
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: would love that, cuga.
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if there will be any talk about voice alternatives for OS.
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: seems robert thing for linux is stil having issues
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: yay poorly researched "statistics" are always a great watch...
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is based on everyone's availlability as that is before the holidays
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: let everyone know to respond, Vincent *smiles*
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to get with robert to suss that out
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: he is working on it
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pfff don't bother, I been barking up that tree for years to no avail
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we will use Discord for conference voice this year
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually don't hear about the Hypergrid survey until they are providing the results of the years survey.
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and will have a training session for it, although it is very straightforward
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When it comes to stats, gotta do it yourself if you want accuracy
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think he said he could reproduce some problems reported earier, so hopefully an update soon
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We capture it, send it in world over the music channel and to YouTube for the live stream
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We as in Marcus LLewellyn, James Atlloud, Petlove Petshop and others on the stream team
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: at OSCC 2025
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, if you still want to dig into that you can poke me on discord I'll take a look
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great!
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was having same issue as AI Autin
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Been meaning to set up a test for it as well, but haven't had the motivation for that
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ai will be presenting on gLTF too
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks Vincent I will if that comes up
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'll wait until the speakers approve their times before sharing the schedule and James Atlloud will build it in the conference program
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks!
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for your hard work and for keeping our community vibrant. We are thankful for you
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, when do the speaker profiles go online?
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with the schedule that James builds
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: they are added and the slots with their times and descriptions
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: my letters help to confirm the data
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: before we publish it, you see...which is why I was up all night typing them...but like to double check
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go. Have a good one all!
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: before sending them *grins*
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: see you, Gavin
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya gavin
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. See you next week.
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll check mine when it goes online. I think there might have been some small change to be made. I'll know when I see it this year.
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great!
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I appreciate it
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you, Lyr, and to the whole OSCC team. Busy time of your for all of you getting ready for the event.
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: s/your/year/
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the panels are still flexible as we focus first on the speaker sessions, etc.
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, it is
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: only one training time this year, too
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Keeps us hopping *grins*
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well have a lovely week and thank you
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute comments/questions before we wrap up?
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Just as well for me. Got some work stuff to deal with on a short deadline.
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-10-28

2025-10-28T19:20:04Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01 AM] Neil Adams: hello [11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Neil Adams: hello
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi
[11:05 AM] Neil Adams: hello
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much to talk about today regarding code changes to Open Simulator as there was none this past week.
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah lazy devs
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else new and exciting?
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: im actually making one... but 2 late for the meeting
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: i have some spargetting from vicent to look at
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yeah, the only thing I have done since last meeting is I tried to migrate a machine from Debian 12 to 13, which ended in catastrophe.
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to say you need to adjust the clock.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc those PRs on github
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Had to reinstall from scratch, but the simulator is happoy and running
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: happy*
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: (oops i said spargetti?)
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that is surprising. I thought migrations on Debian were supposed to be easy (or easier) than with some other distros.
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the recommendation is not to try, but I tried anyway :-)
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I mean it kinda is, but it appears to work. Tests I ran so far all seem to work so unless I missed some edge case it should function
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: 'easy' and 'linux' never match
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubuntu used to say that you should do in place updates.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: i once lost a entire box on a easy debian update
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Distro upgrades the one thing Ubuntu got the hang of finally, but I have had a lot failures on that in the past as well
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Does Debian come with a script to perform that or is it just switching the repos?
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Linux Mint seems to have it down. Or did the last time I tried.
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no script
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: supposed to be an easy upgrade, but gstreamer and some other libs totally messed up the install
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It also takes time to find out what programs got removed and what replaced them.
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so rather than try and untangle the mess, it was easier to runt it flat and restore backup after
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have had distro upgrades randomly erase var www and such fun things heh
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubuntu you can usually get away with just changing the repos, the script doesn't do much else either
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a multi page document I wrote that lets me do a fresh install and get more or less back to where I was before as it lists the packages/programs to be added, the ones to be removed, and the configuration files to be copied from the backup.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Course not much point in upgrading that with how much mainline stuff is broken in noble
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: (Not much further on the libgdiplus front I'm afraid)
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but the repose may not have updated versions of everything and then it runs itself into a dependency mess
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, same here. I still can't get any useful backtrace when a program crashes due to libgdiplus.
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 13 is pretty new I think, usually good to wait a year or two for upgrades so others can find all the bugs first
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is less than 2 months since release
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me just made the connection between the version number and time of year.
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No wonder it didn'twork. ;)
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I gave it an honest try :-))
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin: You have your system back on track for continuing your viewer development?
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin: You have your system back on track for continuing your viewer development?
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As much as you can have Windows doing anything these days, gotta qualify that xD
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose I have
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Until it bytes you again...
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I won't ask you for an update on your viewer development since you have been battling with a distro update.
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Win 10 is pretty much canned by now, so no updates messing it up any more
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Microsoft stock just went up lol
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: e-waste go brrrr
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there isn't much to write home about, except I may publish a new version of the Mac viewer that has gotten a good deal of new code
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok so abotu last week code changes...
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suppose I can now join in testing that as well
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: there was one that need some testing
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: i removed Mono.Data.SqliteCliente.dll that was obsolete since mono 1.2.4
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: there was only a reference to on on webstats and Mono.Data.SQlite should just replace it
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: the dif btw those2 is that the client did also support native live sqlite 2.0
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: even with tyi we only used sqlite 3.0.. so... all should work
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and one less obsolete thing to worry about
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: sqlite broken, postgres broken, mysql only connector without major issues right now, but they are all a pain and a half to update... I have yet to test newer mariadb versions, afraid that'll break too
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: what major issues?
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not a good situation. No reliable database connection, not running OS.
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: it should work with mysql server 8
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: since mariaDB decided to no be compatible with MySQL, it may need a older version of maria
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am still on 8.042
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. to not be..
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have not tested postgres in a bit. when did it break?
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Over a year ago
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because of?
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a mantis on it, dug into it. Latest version is broken, connector needs updating, but that opens a whole can of worms
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: even with the patchs i did accept ?
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any version of postgres?
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Latest release was broken, not sure if it still is, I have not gotten those virtual machines back running
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: i don-t remember any matis telling it was broken..
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It was a total mess and might still be on latest release
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: bit mb just bad memory
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well sqlite seems it also a issue for next win 11 update
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8959
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: they are removing .net framework 3.5, that also did install 2.0 sqlite uses
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not tested postgres with any version newer than 15.x
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Both postgres and maria seem to be preferred options for a lot of projects these days, mysql has sort of fallen out of the running to no ones surprise
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: well seems i did update the connector to post..
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you need the paid-for versions of mysql to get the good juice so no surprises there
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll see to setting up those virtual machines when I find some time
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It makes me wonder whether it's worth the effort to just completely rebuild the wrappers and switch the entire data project to a mixed setup of postgres and couchdb or something. To make it faster and more logical how certain data is stored, but that's a big undertaking
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: First need to fix that db write issue though, once Ubit has stopped cringing over my code :)
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: (cofff cofff cofff )
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could be worse, could be looking at the migration or maptile changes, those are even more spaghetti, but they sure work well and fast ;)
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fast spaghetti
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Blame that 10+ year old code I use as inspiration lol
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't you just have an AI untangle it? those things works so brilliant
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: / /sarc
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I vibe coded that libgdiplus skiasharp replacement and frankly that was about 60% ai getting it wrong so I take what it says with enough salt to kill my kidneys
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It compiles but doesn't run is usually the end result of trying that approach
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't even try to use any of those "AI" systems.
[11:40 AM] Neil Adams: Coding with AI is a tricky beast.
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: With how shit google is lately kinda forced to use it as search engine
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Andrew, Hi all
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It generates code that produces and error you can google and find a better solution for so it works great in that regard xD
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: News organizations in 15 European countries trained multiple AI version on large corpuses of news, and it resulted in major errors in 53% of the output
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in other words totally useless
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So marginally better than most "journalists" /s
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( what are those numbers with HI ?)
[11:42 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's about what I expect
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: mb not much better :)
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suppose that makes it great for brainstorming or feeling smarter lol
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: everyone is expecting a major AI bubble crash
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then we can get back to reality
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Heh reality...
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: for now they are getting and spending rivers of $
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: even making RAM etc prices go up
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And creating lots of co2
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and electricity prices
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, it is really messing up the music industry so the sooner it crashes the better.
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Andrew
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh those who control the $ love it
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Autotune 2.0
[11:45 AM] Neil Adams: Bubbles are the consequences of malinvestment resulting from bad monetary policy. The AI bubble is likely on that list, but it's not the cause.
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now we can all sound like Cher
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: less dependency on humand workers is more profit
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Unfortunately AI bubble collapse it will take the economy with it like the dot.com bubble
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cher :-))
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: People follow shiny things, buzzwords and new fancy solutions to made up problems, what else is new
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, before you came in we were talking about database connectivity issues. There were no code changes this past week.
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Cuga
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks Andrew
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh you are updated Andrew
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: i told about code change above
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sqlite removed from trunk?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: err i meant outdated andrew
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: no sqliteClient
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yay!
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said outdated since mono 1.2.4
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was basing that on no changes in the code base unless it was on a different branch than I have checked out.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: look to git again :p
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Back when that initial failure on mac came through I did look at the changelog for it to figure out if the latest version was safe to use and for the most part it probably is. Only thing that might cause friction is the case sensitivity it has in the latest versions
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. There is one now. :)
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If something explodes we'll hear about it soon enough, the joys of user-based testing :)
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: only wenstats did reference it, but also using sqlite 3
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: webstats
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that animal looks hungry
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I forgot to feed it
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That was a close call. I thought I was going to be trampled by the T-rex.
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: did you seen vincent hair ?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: the poor thing had to come check
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fell into buckets of paint
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: prim hair even
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reminds me I had two crashes earlier today, Fatal error. Failed to create RW mapping for RX memory at OpenSim.Region.PhysicsModule.ubOde.UBOdeNative.SpaceCollide2
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Use Bullet (ducks)
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Usually that's physics objects going crazy so have to find that still
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: tested increasing stack size?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( no idea what that call RX memory )
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looking it up there is an open issue ticket in dotnet for it so who knows what broke
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Normally you don't need to mess with stack size, it's usually just a bad object more than bad config
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It was close to having no "free" memory at the time, most buffered or cached so could be dotnet screwing up allocation as well
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After that stupidity with the virtual memory I don't trust that much anymore
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You probably already know, area Search doesn;t show physics objects by default. I found stray physics objects at the border when I changed the search options
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I usually search the db for the flags, that's faster and wider radius
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubode does over abuse stack, default is not enough in large regions
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh good idea, I'll try that too
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a 2x2 though, so not exactly massive
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a lot of crap on it though
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel with many collisiond
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: How does one fix that for ubODE in large regions?
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: rtfm
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: look to opensim.sh
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: it has the linux shell command to do that
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: not a issue on win
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can globally set those via sysctl as well or just for the user that runs it
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ulimit command doesn;t work on Mac
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: no idea if it a issue on macs either
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is another command for that
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but opensim.sh still works after printing error
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent it can be set globally on Mac but not in shell script, has to be done by root
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that, well you can do it via cli, just requires you enter your password to do it
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have some plists for that
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or with startup script, Gavin has the Mac setup file in his repo
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah on Mac thats the right way to do it
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: forum
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/increasing-system-resource-limits-on-macos.91/
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I did that but had some crashes on ubODE anyway, during heavy physics use
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: download on that page
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but not reproducible
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah number of open files is also a issue
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: tcp connections count as open files and viewers try to open a lot
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Both can have those glitches, usually on crossings. Sometimes it just explodes
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Digging into that requires pulling apart machine code at some point, if it happens once a year that's not really worth the effort
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Yeah, was about once a year for me
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not worth chasing
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a quick question, apologies if its been covered before
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Script Info in right-click menu, greyed out
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Firestorm Bridge is active
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that supported in OS?
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: dont remember
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: the on o avatar healt is
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: In SL it shows the reserved memory of all the object scripts and script count
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah that one on right click sees dead
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its a FS bridge thing
[12:08 PM] Object: Script running
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: duhh also dead on the build menu
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops nm that works if you do select a prim :)
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: just no script info
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm selecting the wine bottle with the sim stats on the table
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: you may need to had rights on the prim
[12:10 PM] Object: Script running
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah info seems dead
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a priority, but would be nice to have
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes
[12:10 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We're in the final stages of planning the schedule for the OpenSimulator Community Conference - waiting to hear back from a couple of the proposals. Registration is open. https://conference.opensimulator.org/
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: If anyone has a community event that you want to host after the conference, please sign up here https://conference.opensimulator.org
[12:11 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and we always need volunteers *grins* Many thanks! It is December 6-7, 2025
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can ask tj about it, maybe he can fix it when he has some free time. Not sure if it needs support on our end though. You can profile script memory directly if you need that
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: ohh my fs beta is outdated
[12:13 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: mine was too
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't FS start complaining when you have been using a beta for too long?
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As if timebombs could stop us xD
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah it dies
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: that script info is also grey at sl
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: odd
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I got mine working in SL after posting to the FS group
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Have to enable the FS Bridge
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in prefs
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and relog or recreate bridge
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: pffff not going to do that
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its a bridge thing
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: i never did like that bridge
[12:16 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a bridge too far if you ask me
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't think I ever used that. That's not the thing that causes these preprocessor nonsense in the scripts is it?
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: look the time..
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:17 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah the time
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week if not before
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next week timings back to normal as well
[12:17 PM] Neil Adams: see you all later
[12:17 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Guess I'm out of here too
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: take care *waves and poofs
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: How is it 20 past all of a sudden? Time flies and so have several people.
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-10-21

2025-10-21T19:17:16Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: or a nice soap [11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid...."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:00 AM] Ubit Umarov: or a nice soap
[11:00 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:00 AM] Neil Adams: Hello Andrew.
[11:00 AM] Neil Adams: indeed
[11:00 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A webserver teaching patience heh
[11:01 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The loading icon goes round and round...
[11:01 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh finally it loaded
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff tested it 1 hour ago and was +-ok
[11:01 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It must be personal at this point, it just doesn't like me
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which browser?
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: waterfox
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is that a thing?
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's just firefox without some of the stupidity
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: firefox returning from street in a rain day
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code..
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: i made a small change on the use of ReaderWriterLockSlim
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: we had code to guard lock from thread.abort
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: we did lock and set a flag to mark it inside a try finalizer. That always did run before a thread abort, so preventing some rare cases where the lock could be aquired and then the thread aborted never releasing it..
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: now dotnet does not have thread.abor, i removed that guard code
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. so i did...
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: ns thing
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still don't get what was so bad about thread abort, the new cancel token thing is essentially just a while (run == true) so might as well use that. Not having the ability to kill a stuck thread seems regressive
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: MS thinks no code could ever run away on its own despite how many checks you put in
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: abort is a bad thing
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: .net had it and a ton of warnings..
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: a lot of the code is not resilent to it
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: framework code
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: like locks
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure killing things like that is not great, but having code stuck isn't either
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Imagine Dotnet AI Max edition
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I miss Clippy...
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it did cause locks.. even worse ones :)
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least it did not hallucinate
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to revisit that at some point, because of the new maptile code having used that in case that got stuck, which for some reason it still does
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: if i remember we only did use it with the watchdog to kill timed out threads
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: a bad thing...
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well we also have events which compiler complains about
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: kinda ok with smartthread pool
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of things that aren't great, but the alternatives are a huge pain in themselves
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: possible pretty bad with the framework pool or async tasks
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess ms had scary reasons to remove the abort
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say idiot proofing by removing things is not a great way of doing that
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: the only way to kill a thread now is to ask it to quit, or at program exit
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: but thread abort is bad in all things..
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: a last resort thing
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure, you are meant to write code that doesn't run away in the first place, but many things depend on external dependencies that might do that outside of our control, then what? Yes, last resort, but not having that option...
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then it gets stuck shutting down cause it cannot exit all threads and you have to sigkill it
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are supposed to control the dependencies you use
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: MS can't even do that properly...
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc will not go far with nuget
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: and similar blind updates of dependencies
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact those issius are anotther reason to not use dotnet on serius projects
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Control in many cases just means pinning versions and then wondering why the security vulnerabilities take down entire companies cause let's be honest hardly anyone has a good culture of keeping things up to date and vetting updates so they just don't do them
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: a few years ago we had a presentation at oscc froma thales student..
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rolling the responsibility to the underpaid and overworked interns tasked with keeping decade old software working through MS nonsense
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: no one did pay much attencion..
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: but was abotu how control of dependencies is a fundamental security issue
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc.. you use apt/get also :p
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See sqlite for how fun that is though, I still have that on my todo list, but imagine my inclination to dig into that
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cringe so much I'm at risk of losing my teeth
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc you are.. eating all those chocolates....
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If you manage all those dependencies it's not going to run on all platforms and OS versions, and things will break eventually anyway
[11:24 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so a tradeoff
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At some point all our db connectors will explode, postgres and sqlite are already problematic, mysql Ubit managed to fix, but who knows for how long that'll last
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: ufff guess there is no updated linux distro with 32bit support for intel
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: firefox removed it also
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: why they do that and keep for useless arm chips etc... duhh
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even the pi is now 64bit so I wonder what's still 32bit, some microcontrollers?
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: People running linux on car keys
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Guessing some tiny low powered embedded stuff
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: a otn of things have no need for 64b
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: ton
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: even opensim did run better in 32bit
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: using half memory etc
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even back then I had simulators getting close to the memory limit though
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thankfully we don't have to use core any longer, so most can afford the extra memory
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well 32bit under win64 meant 2GB per process
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc on 32bit win it was 2GB for every thing
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah those days
[11:32 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I still deal with some embedded system that run with 32-bit boards.
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of the 32bit stuff still exists, it's just dropped from mainline, doesn't mean you can't still get those things and build an image for those devices, just is more work
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Creates jobs xD
[11:33 AM] Neil Adams: lol
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well intel suvived this long bc did maintain compatibility etc
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: bit reason why they won to motorola.. back in the 8086/68000 days
[11:36 AM] Neil Adams: Didn't the usg just acquire a large portion of intel?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: the 68000 was alot better.. but the 8086 did run 8080 code with minimal efford
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: well after that nvidia did buy a lot also
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Part of it came down to what got released first and the price of the chips.
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I try not to think about the landscape more than I need to cause of how dystopian it looks currently
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: usg did buy like 8.9 billion usd (us biliion)
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: just 1000 millions
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nvidia's pocket change
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well 8900 millions
[11:40 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr. You have to pick a different seat today.
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It looked dystopian 25 yrs ago
[11:40 AM] Neil Adams: Hello Lyr.
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:40 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, saw wisps at most seats *grins*
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: vdidia did buy 5 billion it seems
[11:40 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great to see everyone, Hi Cuga
[11:41 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: howdy Andrew
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, bad me for assuming 25 years would make a positive difference huh
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: actually gives me hope
[11:41 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hello Neil *grins*
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh ofc 25 yrs did a dif .. you have a lot less hair..
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: after 9/11 everything went to the shitters
[11:42 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: gives me hope that it still looks not much worse that 25 yrs ago
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not everything, TSA salaries went up xD
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did they even exist 25 years ago?
[11:43 AM] Neil Adams: No, it used to be private security.
[11:43 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I meant 25 yrs on dev landscape, but yeah I think they started around then?
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a connection
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well back to opensim.. any news/questions... ?
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm all that.. hmmm
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did some testing on the db writes, but still not completely finished with that
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hmm... ;)
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the final Win10 updated completely hosed a test installation and I finally gave up a) to fix it and b) reinstall because drivers are not longer possible to find
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that was that last week
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just handed MS the 30 bucks, Win10 shall remain
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: you should know that that last update was to kill win10... not to install :)
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Win11 updates aren't much better though
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Ubit
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I crammed Debian 13 into that partition, but of course not a replacement for Win10
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun seems some ppl went back to win7
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea wahy
[11:48 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: My WIndows based laptop tells me there is an update available. I don't think I have enough free disk space to install it.
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you need 20 Gb
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I still have a server 2019 if you need a working machine, though it doesn't have a gpu for viewer testing
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I don't have that much available.
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: i have 25H2 there waiting..
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure i want it..
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, don't update
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc we have no word on what updates does
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, perhaps an indication of how much people disliked 8 so they went back to 7.
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to be able to run graphics Vincent
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I could try to find a gpu for it and setup passthrough to it, I been meaning to explore that, just haven't found a decent gpu that fits in that server
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if the end of Win 10 will have much of an impact on existing grids.
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't worry Vincent
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: andrew ms expected those to move to 11.. not 7 :) ( 8 is not a thing )
[11:51 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: in the past
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can still test many things, but that machine had both Intel and NVIDIA graphics cards so it was convenient to test on it
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh I know MS wants people to go to 11 but not everyone has a machine that meets the required specs.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's easy to circumvent Andrew, the bigger problem is that 11 is junk
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not going to buy one that's for sure
[11:53 AM] Neil Adams: until you get to 24h2.
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I will stay on 10 for another year and maybe longer until... if MS gets their act together, same thing happened with 7
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, you still need TPM (or some acronym like that) in the BIOS in order to boot it. I don't have that afaik.
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I only have 2 apps I need Win for so I just virtualize it. Whats bad about 25H2 vs 24H2?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess the big problem was ssl changes
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: there where not ported to 7
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: i meant win 7 use problem
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You don't need tpm, not even secure boot, all just flags you can fake, MS trying to fight against thousands of upset users with enough collective knowledge to dismantle the entire kernel if they felt they have to
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: MS lying through their teeth
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact i think i don-t have a tpm chip
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: just cpu thing
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There was a good article detailing it is the gaming industry that has pushed the TPM requirement and not MS itself
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah lots of anti cheat systems that are great for rootkitting your own machine so a hacker can implant a backdoor into your bios
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: well ms wanted it guess since there is such a thing
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: but bet ms wants it also
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Being stripped naked and there is still hackers in online games
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you cant boot linux now also
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: unless it is a autorized linux
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: authorized by who?
[11:58 AM] Neil Adams: no dual boot?
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ?
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: mandatory secure boot
[11:58 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Quick announcement: we're wrapping up the call for proposals for the OpenSimulator Community Conference. Last call for proposals.
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Since when and in which distros?
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I've designed a tentative schedule and am adjusting it before sending out acceptance letters.
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks!
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, ty. I was going to ask if you had any updates or information to share about the OSCC.
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: all want to force secure boot
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe I thought so, Andrew
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: with taht active you can only boot some official distros
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm in class and need to leave soon,- we had a great turn out on proposals
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: can-t even boot one compiled by you
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: it seems
[12:00 PM] Neil Adams: What sort of "unofficial distros" do you have in mind?
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: things not fedora >;
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I stopped building my own kernel for desktop use when it got too complicated to get the right set of modules.
[12:01 PM] Neil Adams: like debian-based?
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: or debian or ubuntu... nd a few more
[12:01 PM] Neil Adams: ah okay
[12:01 PM] Neil Adams: I was always fond of slitaz or openwrt
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: all need to be proper signed
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: like apple apps etc
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Who pushed for that change?
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple still let you boot whatever you want by a switch
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not anymore
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc all in name of your security...
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: When they switched to Solicon that ended
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually apple made changes to the boot loader to enable booting Linux on their arm based machines
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Windows? MS won't let them
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I had a different understanding
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You have to use a Mac based bootloader to trick it to booting Linux, very complicated and only possible with Asaho Lunux's boot hack
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Asahi Linux*
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MS won't let them because of an agreement with Snapdragon
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: What is Snapdragon?
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but you can do it
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: an ARM processor MS is commited to
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm it was not from ms
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: was qualcomm
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: On latest Mac if you want to switch back to one partition after Linux you have to bring it to the Apple store for them to wipe the bootloader
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but the processor is called Snapdragon ;-)
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is not a processor.. it is a SoC :p
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Not like the old days when you could have a qualrupile boot on a Mac
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, you can say the same about the Apple processors more or less
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap same thing
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: was to a a rival of apple silicon
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on mobile
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: but many .. nvidia has on also etc
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not on desktop, but they have pushed it in that direction but it runs like dog shit compared to the M-series
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: intel also had. some arm soc ages ago
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: bit sold it LOL
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: strongarm etc
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Anything more related to OpenSimulator for today?
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: strongest there is
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: XScale...
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just a couple quick things
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Cuga.
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to dash
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: once or twice a year I do a regression test so see what macOS versions still work
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TC guys
[12:09 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Gavin
[12:09 PM] Neil Adams: see you later
[12:09 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Gavin
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Tc Gavin
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: With the latest Dotnet 8 and Opensim from trunk
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Everything still works back to macOS 10.15 ! (Catalina)
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: including unmanaged libs
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and works on latest
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats one thing wanted to share
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess dotnet is the major breaking thing for older OS
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: ty
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah their docs did not say compatible that far back, but is
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I rarely if ever talk about or recommend things in SL, but the virtual Burning Man over there is happening this week and weekend. One of the few things I'm involved in. My builds there get archived to my Opensim grid.
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week if not before :)
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Ubit :)
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:12 PM] Neil Adams: ttyl
[12:12 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, it is great, Cuga. I exhibited in it and in its predecessor for many years
[12:12 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care, everyone. I need to head back to class *waves*
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just wanted to drop that info
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Lyr
[12:12 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you *grins* That's great
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats all I have today
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I watched a series of videos made by someone who attended the RL Burning Man event. That told me I won't ever go to it.
[12:13 PM] Neil Adams: bye
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Cuga.
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It can look horrible or great depending on who you talk to
[12:13 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well the virtual one is a celebration of creativity and reflection. I enjoyed it
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I have been to the virtual one a couple of times.
[12:14 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles fondly and poofs
[12:14 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: No one other than Cuga said they had anything more that was Open Simulator related for today so that should do it for another week.
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-10-14

2025-10-12T06:33:23Z

Tampa:

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think it will survive the national parliaments
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: Ok there where no code changes during last week
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: we got a few Pull requests at github...
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I must admit I had not logged in to opensim since the last meeting :-|
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure how i will process them...
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: a few nice things.. some others not so..
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and kinda hard to handle that on those PRs
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact there is another one on hold
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can anything be said about future challenges in terms of Dot Net and opensim?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: i didnt test 9
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but what about version 8
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any looming issues there?
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is working
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is that issiuw with macs. still open
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is?
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well only have that user report of crash on apple silicon
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, that user?
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap that user
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all righty
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: vicent reported some issues with ubuntu libgdiplus
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: think in last meeting also..
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a open issue
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes because of SVG fonts presumably?
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I got here as soon as I could. I was stuck handling a tech support call.
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: ms wants system.drawing dead
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: but so far it is working fine
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: lets see on dotnet 10
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they have not killed it on 9?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: another open problem is old binary seriealizer they and killed
[11:30 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there any truth to the rumour that msbuild strips debug symbols automatically unless you do something to tell it not to do that?
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: they killed it on 8 .. but a older version works
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: understand
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess same will happen with binary seriealizer
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: that we do use in a few places
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways a bit easier to replace than system drawing
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially dynamic textures
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: more problems.. well lets see what 10 brings
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly ms dotnet team is more worried about coping python
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: and java, but that is since ever.. .net was promoted to kill java on windows
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: and are are your viewers going?
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: fs did expired another beta, but this time the replacement is there
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm not really what?
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL released a new version of mobile written in Unity 6, so I wonder when they also will release a desktop viewer in same
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to revert to an earlier version and build it up from there to make baking work
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: Huh. I should look at that.
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: don- tthing the mobile is a full feature thing
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: dont think
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not yet, but probalby can be
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and with less and less actual creation end users can do themselves, many of the features of current viewer can possibly be dropped for a dev version
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: also no idea of the state of the server side rendering viewer
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well sure no point on having region editors on mobiles
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe not, but who even use prim builds any more
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: unless ones with a big screen docking option, at least
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mesh and PBR needs to be all created outside anyway
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well it is all prims
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, but you know what I mean ,-)
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah :)
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go soon. Just for reference, I'm still working on that impostor system, which has its own server at "animats.info" now for storing the needed index of impostor objects.
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: thx joe
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Keep going! Do not give up! Bye.
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Joe. See you again next week.
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Never give up! Never surrender! ;)
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: (couldn't help myself for throwing out that quote)
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Is that what the Canadian "President" said yesterday?
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, He should say it. It is a quote from the movie Galaxyquest.
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: He should!
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any hints on how to debug a library file used by a C# program? I have been unable to get a usable backtrace when a program crashes. I want to track down some of the bugs in libgdiplus but it doesn't show me file and line number info when a program crashes.
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I may not have the latest libgdiplus as the latest date in the repo is from 2021.
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: libgdi is native
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: have fun with that :)
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: vicent had some fights with current versions.. some are broken
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: talk with him
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: the ubuntu one seems broken on fonts something
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: to debug on linux.. well gdb nightmare :)
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SVG fonts he said
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, there are issue in fonts. There is also something with either box or cursor size getting a 0.
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I use ddd as the GUI front end to gdb. Makes debugging much easier.
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: think last time i tried gdb on c# programs was 12 yrs ago :)
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: libgdi is built-in to mono or in dotnet?
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: and libgdi is native code called from c#
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: libgdir is c
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, I should try running it from monodevelop and see if that helps or not.
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: or c==
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: c++
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: native code
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: c== is a brilliant language :-)
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: i got as gift a keyboard with us layout
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: so some symbols i will just fail :)
[11:57 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: C±± is even better
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: isnt that rust ?
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: any last moment opensim issue?
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I just verified I still have monodevelop on my system so that is going to be my best shot at debugging libgdiplus.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun with that :)
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week, if not before
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to fix some bugs as it is the source of most crashes in another program.
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a good week all
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for handling the meeting, Ubit.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-10-07

2025-10-07T19:17:37Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome [11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thx [11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zeta..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thx
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had some great commits this week
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: during last week we, well , i did accept a patch adding to radmin a comand to send a alert message to a single user.
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: that was submitied in mantis 9218
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: that we may be able to read when our web machine ends the reboot i just triggered
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C'mon webserver, you can do it xD
[11:13 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: that teraformer script from last week uses the SMALL, MEDIUM, LAFGE consts, hence is broken. Needs to usethe numbers
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Excuse me for my being late. I've been buried in code review and getting code under version control all morning. Made my lunch late.
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: fact it uses those does not mean it is brokne, if creator did test like that and was happy
[11:14 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ok
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: if it does terraform.. :)
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Least harmful LL bug
[11:16 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: 0 is so tiny it barely works
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: other code changes where tiny redution on calls to hasgroupchanged
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: and 'cosmetics' here and there
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: like replacing
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Those small calls though make a massive difference. I ran a test last Wednesday with a new db routine to reduce the writes to disk as well as adding some change checks to hasgroupchanged. Granted I didn't catch them all and the db was still writing existing data, but the results were massive. Nearly 75% reduction in disk writes
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/db-write-routine-test-2-results
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: scale.x = Math.Max(World.m_minPhys, Math.Min(World.m_maxPhys, scale.x));..
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: .y... .z
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: with scale a LSLverctor by
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: scale.Clamp(World.m_minPhys, World.m_maxPhys);
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: with scale now a proper omv vector3
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( as i said, basicly cosmetics with a few ns savings )
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since then adjusted the db routine to make sure it checks only the relevant parameters of taskinventoryitems and a few more change checks, which should now be almost all of them. I have to still test to make sure those changes aren't breaking anything, but I have had no complaints about missing items since Wednesday so it seems like it works
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hopefully by the end of the month it'll make its way into mainline :)
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Saving some more disks from e-waste
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Got a mountain of code in final stages for submission now, so naturally I'm just getting lazy in finishing it
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In testing for hasgroupchanged I found that some actions would call that multiple times. Moving a prim, calls it 4 times, changing the name does multiple as well. Ultimately doesn't hurt, but is interesting
[11:26 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem with having lots of code for submission is getting it split up in to a set of commits instead of one mega commit.
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: calling multiple times is not a major problem
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: since it has time control
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: calling it when there is no need is
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, it's just interesting. It can't hurt to have a few extra just in case something doesn't catch it as well
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: well not a major problem just waste
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: you will need to replace your ssd in one year anyways..
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: >p
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, they are all mostly distinct patches applied to master since I haven't forked in that sense I just write patches to go on top to make it easier to integrate core changes
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well Microsoft can claw Win10 from my dead hands, I'll only switch once Win11 becomes less annoying to use
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, Good. I knew someone that had a habit of mega commits.
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ha! MS has been pressured to give one year of extended support to users in the EEA area
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for free
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still gotta login to your account every 60 days, which okay fine whatever, but it's not even rolled out yet and it's a week from now
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any new information about work on BulletSim?
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: cuga and robert are no here
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: not
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope Misterblue is doing ok. Haven't seen him here in some time.
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: he did post abotu that on the respective mantis entry
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I saw that 60 day requirement, but I think that is being challenged too by the EU consumer authorities
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( mantis about bullet : 9214)
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: outch
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That pass of the T-rex took out Ubit and Gavin. Someone needs to teach it to stay away from the building.
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not hungry, it had food earlier, think just wants to play
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:41 AM] Joe Magarac: Hi. Just checking in. Busy lately. Region impostors project proceeding but has a lot of moving parts to write. Anything urgent going on?
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In terms of viewer stuff, hm... no don't think so, no major changes thankfully
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: took us out?
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean I felt a bit trampled on but...
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: OK. Gotta go, then. Good luck with MariaDB.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Bye!
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wonder what he meant by that
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wassup with Maria?
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Joe disappeared before I could say goodbye.
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They have been making moves to change a lot of stuff which has tripped me up a bit, but I also still run like v10 or v11
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Db stuff is fun with all the differences and idiosyncrasies lately
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maria moving away from mysql, sqlite changes, postgres changes
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Feels more like 5 dbs now rather than 3
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeh
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That certainly keeps things "interesting"
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to make sure DB consultants never gets laid off
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Pulling my hair out more like
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: imagine if it did pull gavin's hair
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the actual Gavin has hair
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that's great
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the more interesting bit is it is getting dark again
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: for now.. :p
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mine isn't as colorful, though I wish
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I do too... long like this hair
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and I dye it this color *laughs* shhh
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fun part is going to be sqlite and all the other deps that need platform specific setup. I'm trying to get around to that, but not exactly a very fun task so I keep moving it back
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me, have been working on the OSCC conference and class. Quite a few proposals arriving and some wonderful events in the plans
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Got sqlite, postgres and libgdi to fix now
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me listens and smiles
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did anything bad happen to libgdi?
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah the version Canonical currently offers is fucked
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are sitting on that bug report
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in what way?
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Font rendering via pango
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: libgdi definitely needs to see some love. It is quite buggy and prone to crashing.
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok...
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The call out to pango to fetch the font fails returning null despite everything else working fine
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Haven't seen issues on Mac, or not aware of them
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As a result fonts don't render properly unless they are specific default fonts it knows how to render from internal things
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: neither have I and also not on RaspianOS (which is debian 12)
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried fixing this, but libgdi seems fine, it must be something in pango
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: issue with Canonical
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is not uncommon to get compiler warnings during a build. They can often be ignored. A libgdi build throws out a bunch of warnings that show real issues.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For now mono still has a working version built in focal which can be used
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I changed the wiki to show how to get that along with the libtiff dependency
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: has anyone tested debian 13 yet?
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for OS I mean
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm tempted to if I find some time given how much ubuntu is going downhill
[11:53 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have been looking at devuan on one of my laptops.
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The debian version though is broken also at least the one I could find, maybe it'll get fixed by winehq at some point
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They pointed me towards pango, but I didn't want to install old version of that and all its dependency just to build it using an older version
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Far too much of a mess to get that setup right
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd have to build libpango-dev somehow as well cause there is no older version available on noble
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And predictably there is no information on how to do that
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so when libgdi fails, what falls apart?
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dynamic text?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: and possible map
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah when you try to render specific system fonts via dynamic textures
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like if it is a svg font on the system it breaks
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what version are we talking about?
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 6.0.5
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have 6.0.5.3 on macOS
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember seeing libgdiplus crashing when it was doing something that was passed a size of 0, IIRC. I think I have a crash report on my laptop.
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great! Thank you for your great information and support! I must dash and will see you next week. *hugs all around*
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: version of libgdiplus?
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't figured out how to get a usable backtrace showing filenames and line numbers so it has been hard to pin down exactly where it dies.
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: take care Lyr
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Thanks for dropping by. see you again next week.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: you too *grins*
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My version says 6.2
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Mine says 6.2
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I use Mac Ports and not homebrew
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: either way, they seem available and working on Mac
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: libgdi was working on noble last time I checked.. did it break?
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe because macOS does not use SVG fnts
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fonts*
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( rl calls, have fun ppl, cya next week )
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the bug never surface
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been broken for quite some time. IIRC,it had something to do with cursor size.I'll have to see if I can find a capture of a crash.
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I noticed it through loading custom fonts, but then tested with system fonts as well, both kinda broken or defaulting to arial or something
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Think different" <- Linux
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Cuga
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical <- don't think
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: On my machine libgdiplus can't even run its own test suite without crashing.
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats not a good situation that you should scramble to have to find a workaround
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go too
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: take care everyone
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. See you again next week.
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Gavin
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That reminded me I had a question abotu dynamic textures
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, shoot
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the ones you can create on faces with os functions
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If I take them to another grid they don't see the textures, but I can regenerate then from the script
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if they are stilolin there...
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes they are not assets, but tied to the region
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Is there a way I can save out the texture so it survives grid change?
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can use a change event for region change and redraw
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thanks, that answers that question
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour and several people have left so this would be a good time to wrap up the meeting.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want some "fun" try running gtest in the libgdiplus source tree. :)
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-09-30

2025-09-30T19:29:34Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr is online. I'll wait a few minu..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr is online. I'll wait a few minutes for her to arrive.
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting. When trying to send an IM to someone who arrived in the grid via HG TP they are seen as not logged in.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you send one to me does that happen?
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Me too
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Andrew could message me
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mine works too from Andrew
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, worked for both of you. It may be something to do with we are in the same Scene.
[11:07 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: me to cujal worked
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe, but the console of my grid logged a request for grid info before the message arrived
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: Lyr is having issues with login at oscc to get here
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: she tells us to go ahead
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok.
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Looking at the Changelog for this past week I see just one commit related to reducing the number of saves to inventory.
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there hse is. Hi Lyr
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: she*
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, server reset *chuckles* perhaps
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello, great to see you
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, no worries. We just started.
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The changes aim to reduce what I reported last week on the constant saving of primitems
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I spent more time the past few days tracking things down, running about 20 minutes of sql audit logs to figure out what exactly was causing it
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Should I update? Will it boost performance?
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some danceballs apparently resetting target omega and particle system constantly and something in the satyr farm crap that meant those were constantly marked as changed even though nothing actually changed
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I moved the test to tomorrow and made some further changes of if (changed) nature to prevent calling hasgroupchanged on something that hasn't actually changed
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I actually flush chances to the server less frequent to avoid things like that
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm hoping to see similar results to last week when I did the initial short test as I also included the primitems deduplication code
[11:14 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it means that in a few instances you might lose a change, but it lowers the writes to the server quite a bit
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried different settings for that, but ultimately the amount of data it seems to write is not that different over time and large spikes on writes have negative impact on performance if the disk is busy for too long writing all that
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will only write the latest status of changes. not the log of changes
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure, but that's still nearly 2gb if I wait 15 minutes, just too much stuff on all those regions
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fighting symptoms, fixing the root of the problem is going to help everyone not just those tweaking db settings all day, as fun as that is heh
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sounds like it will be a significant boost for larger, active grids. Maybe nominal boost for less active grids
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I changed it from flush every 10 seconds to every 30 seconds, so you get 1/3 of the writes
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: By thursday should have some data to look at. If nothing blows up then I think that's going to be the way forward. The current way of delete everything and insert is silly to begin with as you'd normally not do that if you just want to delete a single item in a prim
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That needs some specific looking at whether that can be accomplished directly, but just not rewriting 150+ animations every time a target omega change is called is a start
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since we don't have tests outside of subjecting the poor users to those fun things I'm not really one for changing the whole thing too much in one go
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the flushing to disk can be configured per simulator,
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that a config setting for Robust?
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no in opensim.ini as far as I remember
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, Right. If you change too much at once you don't know which change had the biggest impact.
[11:23 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hang on
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have tried a number of combinations already, but in the end the amount of data doesn't change all that much over a given time period, so tweaking that doesn't help much in this case. Just too much stuff for that to really show up in the logs
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To put it into perspective in 22 minutes of audit logs I gathered
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 1216363 total lines 367108 insert into primitems 79187 delete from primitems 158396 replace into prims 79197 replace into primshapes
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rarely seen a log file increase in size that quickly
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So clearly reducing the inserts will help. Have not looked at what it does with prims, but the changes to hasgroupchanged not firing every time some prim data is set to something it is already set to should reduce that
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: issue is that linksets save is very basic
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: it saves everything on the linkset
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If one tiny thing has changed the whole sog is marked as changed and written yes
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: so even a small change on a prim will force a full linkset save
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is a cooldown time to reduce the rate, but it wll happen
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to dig through the audit log more and find more items, but I did go through the hasgroupchanged references and found a few places to add a check so it wouldn't mark a sog as changed when the data put in it is the same as to what's already there, which should help somewhat
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: backup console comand does the pending saves, and shutdow also
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MinimumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered = 10
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MaximumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered = 100
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: these are the defaults
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like set text, set color or texture things to what's already present on the sop, which normally would call a change even if the data is the same
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: pims inventorys did have a flag to skip its save, if not changed
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: buit that flag had to be disabled because in some cases a needed save never happened
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I set MinimumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered to 30 to lower writes to database
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: on that commit i tried to cover those cases, and did let flag work again
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did pull that change in, so we'll see if something explodes :)
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: MinimumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered should be as hig as possible
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll wait to update :)
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you never forget to stop the region doing shutdown :)
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The higher you set that the worse that link delete issue gets though
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There are always tradeoffs
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: given you can configure it per simulator, you may want to set it pretty high for slow simulators and lower for busy ones where there are a lot of changes that must be saved
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: well temporary objects removal may be impacted also
[11:37 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: but thats several minutes time scale... already a bit 2 high
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: biggest impact is if you just kill the simulator, then changes will be lost
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or more changes rather
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that could happen any time a simulator is killled even without the recent changes.
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: absolutely but you will lose more changes if the interval is set high
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless it is irrelevant changes like that dance ball thing
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: True
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess no one did consider that ppl decided to add 1k items per prim inventory ( sl as a limit, and 1k prims per linkset
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: the old opensim No Limits Full righs nonsense still hidding everywhere\
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i did got got nasty feedback when i made some permissions work )
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I think the bigger issue is that a few lsl things setting prim parameters have no "is this already the case" checks so they just re-set the same thing over and over each time marking the whole linkset as changed. A few functions do have that check, but not all
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: and will get if i touch those things...
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Understanding permissions ought to be grounds for a Phd title
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc i could tell like a game dev did... buy a intel ultra 1000 cpu ... and then you may not need some limits
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I should find some software to generate flowcharts from some of the code to get some picture on whether it can even be simplified at all
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc it may take a few years for intel to release that cpu...
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. Jagga has a question for us. Over to you, Jagga.
[11:45 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm terrible at landscaping so I've been writing bots
[11:45 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: found an old bug
[11:45 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: in LSL_Stub.cs [MethodImpl(MethodImplOptions.AggressiveInlining)] public void llModifyLand(int action, int brush) { m_LSL_Functions.llModifyLand(action, brush); } in LSL_Constants.cs public const int LAND_SMALL_BRUSH = 1; public const int LAND_MEDIUM_BRUSH = 2; public const int LAND_LARGE_BRUSH = 3; llModifyLand(LAND_LEVEL,0);# displaces a 2*2 llModifyLand(LAND_LEVEL,1); # displaces a 4*4 llModifyLand(LAND_LEVEL,2); # displaces a 8*8
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't that already on mantis?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did answer to that on mantis, didnt i ?
[11:46 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: probably too late to fix it, so I've been hard coding
[11:46 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: yup, just noting it here
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: sl wiki tells to just use the numbers
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't immediately see a problem with the above. Care to point out the problem, or reference the mantis #?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: possible there are scripts using those, that wold break
[11:48 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: 9216
[11:48 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: yeah, land flattened would break
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have that ancient terraformer script
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: seems to work allright
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Jagga. Helpful for anyone reading the chat log of this meeting.
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: biggest problem in terraforming are sim borders
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I use the flatten brush to work from highest elevation to lower going down on the border
[11:52 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm doing huge hills. the brushes aren't that sensitive
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: that those will not work on the other sim
[11:52 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and from the sim with highest elevation to to the one with the lowest (left or right) with a small flatten brush
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: unlike viewer comand
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Region borders are only a problem if you create them, just make the region bigger :)
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can always split the heightmap later
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's what I did last time I had to make a cluster of regions with terrain
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted that only works if your mountains are not as big or you have something that can work the r32 files
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not so practical if you want to make changes years after
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: True
[11:54 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: which reminds me...is there a reason why maptiles might fail to update?
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have some older patches in the terrain that never will smooth - must be garbage in the terrain map somehow
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Way the current system works when robust gets the tiles is a bit of wishful thinking and prayer that it doesn't receive data while trying to write it or do you mean the regions themselves?
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The minimap and world map are cached in the viewer, it takes some time before it attempts to fetch new ones for that
[11:56 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: that's probably it
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: restarting the viewer will fix that problem :-)
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Dear friends, I need to step away soon and have an announcement on Mal's memorial at Hypergrid Safari
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even with the new system I been testing for months now I still see some tiles just not appear, haven't quite worked out why since the new system is supposed to wait for a while before attempting to parse the data. Suspect there is still something with dotnet fileinfo caching going sideways
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: The HG Safari is at Noon Pacific / SLT and at this location hop://craft-world.org:8002/Inworld%20Review/190/272/23
[11:57 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you *hugs all around*
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Lyr. I was just about to post that info (after you had reminded me about it). :)
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: thanks :)
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: One other item that might be of interest, but not directly related to Open Simulator, is that on Oct. 1st at 1pm PT Phillip Rosedale will be holding a community conversation and Q&A while they test out their new WebRTC voice servers.
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Early announcement called it a "load test" then they changed it to Q&A
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: prob both
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: they are a few years old by now... hardly new :)
[12:01 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: gavin if you have that terraformer script handy could you send it over?
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well more than a year..
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll send it once back on the grid. it is not in my suitcase
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: lets see if ll can get servers with compatible latency at aws
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have doubts
[12:02 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: mine work but I'm still workimg on diagonals
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, is that a script where you sit on a prim while you make it move over the land to shape it?
[12:03 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: that;s land flattener. Mine is a crawler
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: The ancient script I have was meant to shape the land by moving the prim around while you sat on it.
[12:04 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ah ok
[12:04 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: that;s not a bad idea
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have an unrelated question
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you want really pretty and detailed terrain you have to go the image import route either way as the brushes and viewer controls for manipulating terrain are not as detailed as the heightmap can technically represent
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm think someone had a nice tractor to do that
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure there has been more than one scripted method for altering terrain.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: What is your question, Cuga?
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does the heightmap export preserve same bit depth as imported heightmap TIFF?
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can the depth be adjusted
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For anything but r32 you get approximations
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of the normal image formats also cutoff at certain heights
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: would be nice to have option to export to TIFF same quality
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but this is edge case
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not priority
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some code to change the tiff loader to accept 32bit depth
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can import, its the export I was having challenge with
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I['ll try r32
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not the difficult, but very manual loading the files basically bit by bit at that point since the native loader doesn't go up to that bit depth
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: export via viewer or command line?
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: command line was the only methos that works for me. works quite well
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: viewer feature broken
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: viewer upload and download are really slow cause they work on udp I think or something funky like that
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm, ok?
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Basically sends it piece by piece which takes forever
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for 8x8 it never finishes
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but its ok, happy with command line
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's 64 regions when a single region can take over 5 minutes if the heightmap is really complex
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I waited 8 hours
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: prolly just times out after a certain point
[12:09 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because I ma pretty sure the viewer code will only handle 1024x1024 simulator configs meaning 4x4
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that point the viewer might have killed the coroutine or something yeah
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh ok, that makes sense
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Quick question on another subject. I never reached MrBlue on that Bullet-related Mantis. Has there been any movement on that? Should I still try to reach him?
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: still waiting yr feedback
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok, I'll try to reach out
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If he doesn't respond guess we have to assume bullet as unmaintained unless someone else wants to take over
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Why assume that?
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hasn't really seen much change. You reported there being some bugs and him looking into those over a year ago and nothing happened
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Nothing happened bc he spent some time looking and fix would require big deep dive with new code
[12:12 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to leave guys. Will get that terraformer to you Cuga before I log
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for Jagga
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. Thanks for coming.
[12:12 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ty
[12:12 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Gavin
[12:13 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: jagga - sorry
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sure, but at the end of the day now you got someone that said they wanted to fix bullet and we have to defer them to the maintainer which can't be reached it seems
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You mean my Bullet Mantis or the new one?
[12:13 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At some point, especially when someone comes along saying they are looking into things perhaps it's time to ask them if they would be willing to maintain it or at least update it
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If I knew C well enough to read the Bullet connector, I woul offer to take it, but I don't have those skills
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mr Blue does come in and fix when there is a priority issue
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the new Mantis is a bit flaky
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But I will try to reach MrBlue and clarify
[12:15 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sorry, I've been super busy, delay is my fault
[12:15 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are a number of open issues on mantis regarding bullet along with the stuff you found. I'd say one could expect that to be looked into at some point, but I see no movement on it in months or even years
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't call that maintained really
[12:16 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I will try to reach him, and try to brush up on my C skills :)
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Perhaps the person that posted those newer binaries has interest in looking at the wrapper as well
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm all in favor of bringing in someone with skills
[12:17 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But his reasoning in the Mantis was a bit questionable
[12:18 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Ignore small movements" is already handled well in Bullet, better actually than ubODE
[12:18 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Beside Ubit I think you know the most about bullet hence why you are probably best to try an orchestrate that whole situation :)
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There are use cases that work on one engine or the other. I dont think we can ignore Bullet
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and still widely used
[12:19 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I like having the option as well, though I have seen lots of crashes from viewers to regions with it so I tend not to use it
[12:19 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My region has only crashed on ubODE, not Bullet
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: multiple times
[12:20 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Try region crossing with complex mesh vehicles and multiple seated avatars, it really dislikes that
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I don't have any region crossings :)
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[12:21 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks!
[12:21 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll reach out to him and one of us will update the mantis soon :)
[12:21 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If he doesn;t answer, I will
[12:22 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sounds good
[12:22 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: He's more qualified, but I'll make sure it happens
[12:23 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[12:24 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really? I thought you were Andrew :)
[12:24 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent I'll probably reach out to you on IRC, I need to set up nginx and solve that pesky HTTP killer requests, still coming in
[12:25 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That still going on huh, yeah would love to know what weird bot has it out to get you
[12:25 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, :)
[12:26 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the hour and a half mark. Anything more for today?
[12:27 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I sent you the search stuff over discord, take a look at some point if you find some time Andrew
[12:27 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ty. I did notice you sent me some info. Finding time is a bit of an issue.
[12:27 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: :)
[12:28 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: As there doesn't appear to be anything more for today I will call this meeting to a close.
[12:28 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-09-23

2025-09-23T18:53:47Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be short a few of our re..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be short a few of our regulars.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have something rather major to report this week
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Vincent.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yesterday I ran a test for about an hour to see if my suspicion on the primitems writes was correct
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Made a binary with a new routine that reads the information from the database to determine what it needs to enter
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Instead of the current routine which deletes everything and then insert every item again
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The difference was quite visible I'd say
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/images/blog/Disk_Traffic_(md2)_on_eu-cluster2.zetamex.pw3.png
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted the test only ran for an hour, so I plan a longer 24 hour test next week or week after that to see how it behaves when the dust settles and users actually interact with things
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is still the question of what causes it to consider objects as changed and thus triggering a database write in the first place as some of the items I could find in the audit logs of the database are not being actively changed
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Scripts being dormant etc
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are a number of things that set hasgroupchanged and other flags that can trigger a write, but I haven't found one that fits these cases yet
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps a forced persist after x amount of time had passed in case something about the objects had changed in some way?
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's what it seems to do every 10 minutes or so from my local test, but I could not get it to actually hit the primitems write routine yet
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspected overwriting SetText with the same data somehow triggered it, but I could not get it to do that
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looking at the objects they have scripts in them, but they aren't actually doing anything so it's perplexing as to what triggers that
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The new routine first reading and determining a sort of change set to apply does appear to work though and it's probably something to add regardless of whether I'll find the trigger or not
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As you can see from the picture the writes are more than cut in half and the reads are visible on some of the larger inserts it would normally do
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a more efficient design
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically it could be improved still by using insert on duplicate key update rather than replace into, but that makes the query more complex, which I don't know how that ends up on the db side. Might actually be more data than replace into
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Replace into unfortunately still does a remove and insert with an index rebuild, so it's heavier, but as the new routine already stops it from rewriting existing data it's still massively cuts down on writes
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I noticed this last week after I saw a disk report 800TB of written data in a little under 2 years, which is a death sentence for SSDs, great reads, avoid writes basically
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Less e-waste keeping the disks running for longer
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After the longer test I hope to get some feedback on whether the new routine works or not. While I suspect it will, never know what ugly edge case might break it so testing is required
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There might also be other db interactions that can be improved in a similar way, but one step at a time
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's great, Vincent. I think it might also reduce the system load slightly.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It adds a bit of memory usage as it has to read and temp store the information from the database to determine the set of changes it has to write or what to delete, but a few mb of that vs. TB's of disk writes is probably a good trade to make
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: doesnt replace destroy all columns there are specified, resting to default values?
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean, that are not specified
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It does a delete and then insert, resetting the index so the row remains at the same position
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said, may be better to use insert update instead
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that is a big diference..
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The bigger difference is still just not writing hundreds of items over and over in the first place, but yeah
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we do want to keep the unchanged things.. not destroy them :)
[11:23 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and nods
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: uff db dev is a strange world
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways you change check that on your test dbs
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr ...can check..
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah once I know this version works, insert update should be trivial
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well not sure abotu the cost of the full read versus write all
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: the db may pack things in a way that it actually may need to readl all row.. reapck it and write
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: so no real saves
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hopefully longer test will show how it behaves in that regard
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc replace will just destroy the indexes, it seems and that does not scale well
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( this if uncle google is right )
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: any thanks for your reports and the lot of work testing
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Very encouraging results. It would save a ton of DB activity in a busy grid.
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: this is a lot worse since the db table in question has ALL the primitems on a region
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it can be a big table
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: well loking to our code
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea why we delete the row and insert again
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is bad
[11:42 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I would have thought a simple UPDATE would have worked.
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well you also need something that is able to remove the items no longer in the prim
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: True.
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah ofc... they are all spread on that table
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm well no
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: remove sould have own api
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah we aonly have basic store all
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah yes that needs that nonsense delete all
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: well rl calls
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: thanks for youre time, see you here and there :)
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: cya
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We might as well call this gathering done and dusted with so few of us here this week.
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks for the great discussion
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you both for coming. See you again next week.
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye everyone
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Good luck with the rest of your tests, Vincent.
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Oct 1 is Mal Burns' H Safari
[11:50 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: honoring his life
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you for the reminder, Lyr.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-09-16

2025-09-16T19:08:44Z

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc untill i open a thing and forget to put the shields back...
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Once we get started I will have to step away for a bit. I just got a call where I need to check on a system that doesn't appear to be working as it should. I need to have a look at it.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what are you ruining now?
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( but tohsoe shileds are mostly about passing regulation tests )
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff s imply rf links...
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: press a btn here see a relay tick there..
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting to play with microchips, rf and assembly, no fair, I only get to debug annoying hard to replicate bugs as of late
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff such a simpel thing. and i lost days...
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: well 2 days...
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: random error.. ofc
[11:06 AM] Joe Magarac: Hi all.
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Joe
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, what have you been messing with that has/had shields?
[11:06 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Hiya folks. Is it ok to join you?
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Absolutely, Hyacinth. Pull up a seat.
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew!
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh this those nor need shiedls.. just low impedance IOs where matters
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: those nor ??? does not!
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: basic stuff bahh
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: oops meeting started? bad andrew
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waited for a couple of other people to arrive and they have.
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just checking the change log. Just two changes today. One related to PostgreSQL support and the other is mostly cosmetic.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: but didt the opening speach
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually say hello soon after I arrive.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway... on code, i just push a patch from Licu Rau from Craft/World for PostgreSQL
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: in friends code
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does it do?
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: it works around some case sensive issues
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inconsistency across the db landscape in that regard is a pain
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and adds GetUsersWhere() that only mysql had
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I used chatgpt to convert postgres views to mysql views today and it worked great
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: also added a patch form one vincent.Sylvester that removes a unnecessary temporary string
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I bet it works the other way too
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Between 3 or 4 db systems and underlying platform differences it's a surprise it works as well as it does with the different naming conventions all over the place, but you'll pull your hair our trying to sort that out reasonably
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I think that would be a safe bet.
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: is anything about AI a safe bet ?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: i would consider it only a bet
[11:15 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: haha
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only safe bet is it will start hallucinating fast
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't be worse than going off a stackoverflow that's ten years old and out of date
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, :)
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: and in some cases violate copyrights
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Isn't there a lawsuit where Stackoverflow is part of it for copyright infringements?
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of that information on SO may be old but can still be valid. At least you know it came from a person.
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are more than ten yrs old ( we thing) are you out of date ?
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Andrew
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: /me hides and runs...
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: err and hides again
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Ubit.
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe, I haven't found a best before date printed anywhere on me yet though
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, We'll send the T-rex after you.
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this was basically converting SQL the proprietary MySQl version
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe it could convert the search code to work with postgres and php too
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The differences emerging in mariadb from mysql is getting on my nerves lately. I get their wish to have their own thing, but the branding nonsense just makes it annoying to write agnostic code now
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ossearch?
[11:18 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fixed that whole thing about two years ago
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for postgres?
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The php side of things
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, are there issues in the ossearch module I have maintained that needs updating?
[11:19 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I didn't know that Vincent
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You asked me that three times already, yeah there are a few bugs in there and some missing parts too
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fixed it building websearch system a while back
[11:20 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I am still getting ossearch errors when the map comes up
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that code is in codeigniter format so you'd have to pull it out of the class structure into plain php
[11:20 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Presumably when it is looking for event markers, etc
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: My mind has been on other projects for a while and work has been getting in the way of a number of projects.
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then there is the admin modules that only work for myssql
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mysql even
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't recall exactly what it was, but I think classifieds, something on parcels and some other flag that was misaligned
[11:21 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It's a malformed numeric field or something like that
[11:22 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I will need to find time to look at the bug tracker for ossearch and osprofile.
[11:22 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: But I didn't come here to complain. I've been really happy with the latest code overall
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: cuga is not here, so no news on that bullet PR
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not a problem. We need to know about issues so they can be fixed (eventually), or at least noted in the bug tracker.
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is also the part where the tables all need to be the same format and charset and all that jazz else you can't create proper search queries across them as joins would take minutes converting data
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: and how are your viewers Joe and gavin ?
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: crawling forward
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, The charset thing is a bit of a mess.
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, Gavin, best find me on discord and I'll throw the files at you and provide what I can remember :)
[11:24 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since I only can build in a virtual machine it is getting increasingly hairy
[11:25 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Other than wanting to thank you for your work, which I imagine you don't hear enough. I had some questions about plans for the llSetRenderMaterial and related functions.
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pbr will be implemented in time, when LL has actually settled on what they want to do
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I also need to install the latest macOS released yesterday to see if the viewer runs at all. I only have one Intel based machine left it can be installed on.
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: did i mentioned how i hate the mess ll did with pbr materials ?
[11:25 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I started writing the functions, but if y'all planned to add those in thenear future, I will hold off
[11:26 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, ok. I was going to say you will be up next after Gavin finishes.
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I noticed LL has not released a mobile viewer update for weeks, and there is arm build code starting to appear for the regular viewer
[11:26 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I got them working well enough to implememnt a single project. But it still needs code to populate the default materials, etc
[11:27 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: oh sorry :)
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: no, worries. It happens. I try to keep it to one discussion at a time.
[11:27 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway, that's my tiny update
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well they need to put some in there if they want to move forward on mac either way I imagine
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the update, Gavin.
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they need to write a renderer
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I pray for your sanity once they get to that, knowing them it might not be pretty
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe they have given up going the Unity route
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that ll function is a mess
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: to proper handle it, regions need to fetch and decode the pbr asset
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: alos the repository is a mess with branched coming and going almost every day
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: then using then keep and update and pbr override
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome to the group, Hyacinth. You can go ahead with your question (although it seems Ubit is already giving an answer).
[11:30 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sorry last time I was here was 2019 and it was pretty much a free for all. haha
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: wiht stupid details like to remove the asset and most the overide, does not delete the overider
[11:30 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Yeah I just wanted to know if the llSetRenderMaterial and related functions are in the works
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc it also includes the textures tranforms
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, Some days it can be. I try to not let it get too out of control
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel and ofc ll kept changing things.. so jsut delayed all that
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last time I checked that stuff the constants didn't have wiki pages which tells me "subject to change"
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly ll did a huge mess with PBR
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You expect it at this point, but it is still disappointing
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: not to mention the viewer side performance
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *slideshow
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not to mention every rock face in world looking like it just rained on them
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: still not great.. but was a disaser
[11:33 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: What I worry about is everyone uploading 2048x2048 textures by default.. for everything
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: ppl will pay near 3000 USD to have a gpu to be at sl
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, I won't be surprised if some people wind up doing that.
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: now NOT
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And then said gpu melts its connector and burns down your house :P
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least now they only need to pay 1000 USD or so :p
[11:34 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: If you grab models from sketchfab, etc.. they all have huge textures, and that's probably where most people will harvest materials
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( plust the rest of a pc )
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: amd what when the windmills stop??!
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to spend $3k on an entire system. I wouldn't spend that much just on a video card.
[11:35 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: A suggestion for the future. Add a way to clamp the texture size when uploading materials
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: hyacinth if you want you can share ur code as a patch on mantis
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can change the maximum texture resolution allowed for upload already, the viewer just won't reflect that and just fail the upload instead
[11:36 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: ok. When I make more progress on it, I will share what I have. Right now I just have it working well enough to do what i need to do
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i listed most what is needed
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least the part that irritates me
[11:36 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Ah.. and the other concern. 2048x2048 bakes. lol
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: opensim bakes are viewer side
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Those are temporary as well
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem is not knowing how the texture will be used. 2k x 2k would seem reasonable for a terrain or large object. Not so much for the parts of hair object.
[11:37 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I have found the newer viewers are sending 2048 no matter what you are wearing
[11:37 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: so a server side resize would probably be the only way to make that more efficient
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc all sl "creators"changed to 2K
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can-t do that server side
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: would be a big can of worms
[11:38 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well the viewer itself is supposed to send bakes that are the size of the largest texture used. But even if it is all 1024, it still composes a 2048 bake texture for everything
[11:38 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: and that is what gets sent to /bakes
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, some will use a 2k tex as a texture atlas
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: thing they still limit eyes
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: think
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would probalby runin the item if downscaled
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ruin*
[11:39 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: So when I wear bom.. people on old viewers can't see me.. just gray
[11:39 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: No I mean just the bakes.. Resize the huge ones on the server sside before they are stored
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every viewer even the old 6.x branch should show 2k textures, they were supported back then
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They only x2 the max size everywhere basically
[11:40 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: We've thoroughly tested it. Some people might see my head, and the rest gray
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: doing that can mess soem seems on the final rendering
[11:40 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: or see me on one time.. and not, the next
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make a grey (alien) avatar
[11:40 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: problem solved
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hence you can use 4k textures now as well, not that anyone should
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: like neck line.. hands etc
[11:40 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: if everyone is on FS 7 it is fine
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure fs does 2k bakes for opensim
[11:41 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It does
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: didnt look
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeack
[11:42 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: If the FS devs don't care, then all we can do is have the bakes service downsize them
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that is not suposed to do that..
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: decode the j2k, downscale, reencode...
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: that adds up on machine load a lot...
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: hm and thats several per avatar. forgot the number
[11:44 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well 2k bakes adds a LOT of network load
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: but more than a dozen
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: better we ask fs to limit to 1k
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: for them is easy
[11:45 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Theoretically, it is supposed to
[11:45 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: But, in SL, it causes no isses
[11:45 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: other than lag
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: they do limti eyes, etc
[11:45 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: and they are all about SL
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: thing those are still 512
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel that code is now opensim only
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: the viewer side bake
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: we just need to bother Beq on fs
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavin and joe are here for their viewers :)
[11:47 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I'll have to look at the FS code again.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It not displaying a 2k textures is strange though, cause we have had dynamic textures with that resolution since forever working fine, so there is something else going on potentially causing them to be rendered even larger
[11:47 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It is "flaky"
[11:47 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess bakes fall under LOD
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: so viewers will never get 2K
[11:48 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: The people on the v6 viewrs have a hard time with it
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Realistically that branch is on life support anyways, with probably not that long before it will stop getting any attention
[11:49 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hyacinth, your textures look great
[11:49 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Am I right in thinking that the bakes are first passed to the sim, and then the sim sublits them to Robust bakes service?
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: bakes service is only a file store, basicly
[11:50 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Right, but does it get funneled through the sim?
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer code handles the baking in opensim
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah 2k is more data on region-robust trafic
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i do hope users will never get 2k
[11:51 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I am on bom now, so all my textures are probably 2048 at the moment
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: but the way ll does that is in fact a violation to j2k files spec
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: so they cant use a modern openjpeg lib
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta get all the resolution you can get to display those age rings in glorious 4k xD
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:52 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: lol
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: only KDU and a older openjpeg that allow the hack they do
[11:53 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well let me pass along to the next person. I need to go afk for a moment
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( they only send the start of the j2k file up to the resoulution they want )
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just five minutes before the top of the hour. Any other questions someone wants to ask on a different topic?
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Submitted a patch to FS this week to fix up the syntax highlighting in the viewer not properly loading the simulator override
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might be a bit before it gets merged though
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still doing debugging on an environment bug that might be server side or client side, too early to tell
[11:57 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: When Vincent finishes I do have something to ask Lyr.
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also have to do some more tests on the primitems rewriting to make sure that doesn't break some edge case, but seems like it works so far
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should reduce the disk writes on some larger items when they somehow get rewritten to disk over and over
[11:58 AM] Joe Magarac: Next meeting, gotta go...
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[11:59 AM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Fast poofer :)
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Vincent. If you are finished I am going to turn to Lyr.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( lyr mb afk for a bit )
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, Any updates for us about the OSCC? I think I saw the notice about the call for proposals went out.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes, probably is around this time.
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go and fix something RL, so see you all next week
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:01 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: tc Gavin
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin.
[12:01 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Nice meeting you
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to table the question for next week.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: https://conference.opensimulator.org/speakers/call-for-proposals/
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for this week I will bring this meeting to a close.
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Ubit.
[12:02 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Thank you everyone. I am glad I made it today. It was nice seeing everyone
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we go, I will say welcome back to Hyacinth. Hope it won't be another 6 years before we see you again. :)
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: haha
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our Call for Proposals for the OpenSimulator Community Conference went out
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: anyone who wishes to host a community event, short talk or panel, please send in a proposal.
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I saw something about that on Teams.
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great!
[12:04 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sweet talk Phillip Rosedale to attend again :)
[12:04 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: won't be the same without Mal Burns... Thirza is hosting a Hypergrid Safari for him on October 1st on Craft
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: at Mal's home there
[12:05 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: He's amoung us anyway. But that was the first time I have seen him as him. hehe
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: right ... was such a surprise
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: No, it won't. Is there any sort of memorial planned for the oSCC?
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: On Wed Oct 1st
[12:05 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is a memorial for Mal at the Hypergrid Safari
[12:06 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: He is sorely missed
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Details will be posted here https://hgsafari.blogspot.com/
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Lyr. If you remember, you can remind us again when we get close to that date.
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, he is
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: will do, Andrew
[12:06 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: We lost our Commandant and the Sl Coast Guard the same week too :(
[12:06 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: as it is in 2 weeks...more meetings
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh very sad, Hyacinth
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks, dear friends. I must dash to class
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care and have a great week... see you next week
[12:07 PM] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: tc Lyr. Have a good day
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: A member of the local Filk music community recently passed away unexpectedly. He wasn't someone anyone was worried about health wise.
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: You too, Hyacinth *cheers*
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to turn off the recording device.
[12:08 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that is always a shock, Andrew, very sorry for your loss
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-09-09

2025-09-09T19:21:37Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Joe Magarac: Hello? [11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit seems to have fallen asleep [11..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Joe Magarac: Hello?
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit seems to have fallen asleep
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if ubit is online
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's see commits... only had the partial implementation of llSetBuoyancy without the unset parts, which are a bit of a can of worms to implement hence why the set part wasn't implemented either, at least not for attachments
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: He isn't on IRC at the moment.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing or resetting the flag on detach is quite difficult to achieve in a light manner
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some heavy ways of doing it, but obviously that's no good to do each detach call
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hello!
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would need additional structures to record if the flag was changed and so on, all just a lot of crap for very little gain and making detach and attach heavier
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda strange anyways because I recall taking a swim a while back with an attachment that must've used something else for that just fine and it didn't turn me into a rubber duck either, meaning I still sink to the bottom as normal these days
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if the ultimate solution is a new attachment handling system, but that's even more work just for something that I think already works fine through other means
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh youre talking about the attachment buoyancy change?
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm interested in learning more about that
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a build that can use it
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So from what I saw in Ubit's notes, theres a problem when the attachment is detached, avatar motor doesn't reset, correct?
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a travelling balloon script that uses buoyancy.
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I never worked with it. I was given some life ring type deal a while ago to wear and that worked to make me float around quite nicely, took it off sank back to the bottom, so not sure how that works, but it seems to just be specifically for that behavior
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can already make things float quite well even avatars, maybe I still have that thing somewhere in inventory
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats all I need. Its not easy to make things float without the recent change
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llAllyImpulse on a timer was the only way before
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llApplyImpulse*
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is hoverheight as well you can move avatars up and down with quite nicely
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: upward force is needed for my applications
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and scripting to turn it on or off
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Other positive news this week include a merge at FS means we got our time zone back to PST/PDT with the next release, hurray
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yay!
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we spent some time lamenting about that
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I complained enough that someone listened I suppose xD
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ did me that favor, I'm happy for it
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Took some of his time setting up viewer builds yesterday to try and debug some of the other issues the viewer still has like the broken syntax highlighting and the legacy search
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted my C skills are close to zero so that might take a while
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least might be able to now repack the installers and include an actual grid list worth a damn. It seems HGB has completely stopped maintaining their site so their list will be broken soon enough and annoyingly that's what Firestorm currently uses for a list to present to users
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a big implication potentially exposing users to malicious actors via such a list. Granted I agree that curating such a list of "trusted" grids is a pain and does cause some bad blood, but I'd argue that's preferable over users ending up on a grid that scams them in some way. That makes the entire metaverse look bad
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Basic terms we all use to determine whether we trust some company with our data isn't unreasonable to apply to grids, well that's my opinion anyways
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: HGB used to vet their list?
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sometimes
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So not any worse then
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: By now some of the entries are dead and new stuff doesn't appear to be added
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that they were ever that up to date or particularly detail orientated
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So a new method wouldn't be any worse
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Firestorm said they'd only allow grids on there that had been online for a certain amount of months or years, had some terms of service that are reasonable I don't think anyone would really mind
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I suspect the bigger problem is investing the time in checking that
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the bad actors will by lying
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a whole wall of those heh
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Suggest not vetting but instead add a sensible warning with the list. Or do some vetting with well known names but not worry about checking all the entries on every update
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that point really I'd prefer no list at all
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have the way of adding via link so that should be easy enough for most
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh whats the link?
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: secondlife:///app/gridmanager/addgrid/login.zetaworlds.com for example
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's essentially all that new grid list in the viewer does too since it just loads a website
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh you mean a custom thing set up on each OS grid?
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That for is not on my grid lol
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: form*
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can use that as button to add it to a users grid manager yes, though FS needs to be the viewer registered to the handler
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what about standalone hypergrid?
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put any address there
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did not know this. OK so its a reserved secondlife:// URL I can cann from my viewer on my own grid?
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can call*
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put that on a website after user registers for example so they can add the grid directly if they haven't already or on the viewer download page. It's like ftp:// or http:// just the handler and then the function to run with the loginuri at the end
[11:33 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello!
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr!
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it can be used as a convenient link for an end user to log in to that grid
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To add the grid to the grid manager yes
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: confused
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Grid manager is the replacement for HGB?
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or not related
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: grid manager is Preferences->Opensim thing
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: (hi)
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit.
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh right ok
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Ubit
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeack my fs beta did refuse to run bc 2 old?
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, not related. Users can add/remove entries from the list in FS as they wish.
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: im not sure i like that fs feature for opensim
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So that adds the grid to their local list, got it. Not related to the master "grid list"replacing HGB
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, this grid wants a certain minimum version to avoid problems related to the viewer version.
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is not this grid.. it is FS
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS has timebombed the viewer to not allow login after 28 days of release of a beta version
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: err not the release.. the beta
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: im on a older release
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. I haven't used a beta version of viewer in a long time.
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: 17.70368
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure how old.. but 0ld :)
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm still on 7.1.11
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: well if i remeber the download site i may try to get a newer beta
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: if it just by date is jaust silly
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. if there are no problems, some one will invent new ones
[11:42 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they had released a new beta in the meantime I could see why, but that is still the latest beta so...
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I understand why they do that.
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, I saw their note about no newer beta that is working
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: same here and they closed the bug report for it
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-35930?filter=-6
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Sad that this happens during their Anniversary
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: They probably think a new beta will be available before the previous one expires.
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd welcome more development versions to test with certainly
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure why it doesn't just phone home to check for status, it already sends a bunch of telemetry and retrieves a bunch of files from the net as is
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with the 28 day expiration, they recommend reverting back to a previous one
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah i see .. a very silly thing
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh they say to just use the oficial release
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I tried an earlier version, but it did not work
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so I installed the release candidate *girns*
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for your solution, Tampa...
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said... ppl always like to create problems where there where none
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problems are just undiscovered solutions
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: now they have the building sistem broken and did let the beta expire
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: cuga.Rajal
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: seen the changes on bullet at mantis?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: proposed changes..
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hyes
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am still trying to reach MrBlue to discuss it, but there are issues with his proposed patch
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: there are no bins for apple so i have that on "ice"
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i didn-t look to details
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: the multithread things.. well not fan of that for opensim
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That Mantis is Bullet related not apple
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes but no apple silicon builts...
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is what i meant
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We wouldnt use his binasry anyway
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Need to rebuild from a patch
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if used at all
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His proposed change adds a dependency on a lib that only exists on Linux
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So Im not thrilled with that
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mac does have its own variant of that lib, but I dont think its in the Windows ecosphere
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But I ewanted MrBlue to look at the Manrtis before getting back to him
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: what lib? gpu related math ?
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: looking...
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i told there we do not care abotu gpu
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OpenCL
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: mots opensim cant use any gpu
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet already had GPU optional support before his patch
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If we try to use GPU is better use whats already in Bullet
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess tehre is some openCL for win, just not included in drivers like openGL
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: think he only worked aroud compilation settings etc
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I tried to compile it with the Mac OpenCL drivers but didnt work
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: no real code on that
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: but didnt look much
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Let me reach out to MrBlue and see if I can get him to answer the Mantis :)
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. im not fan of gpu use or even multithreading
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: should be an option, not default
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: those are great for desktop games
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: not for a app like opensim
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially running on a linux server
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: that have no gpu worth mentioning, and has like 100 instances of opensim up
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His justification was to give Bullet more "horsepower" but I rarly if even have an instance where more is needed
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: so.. where are teh cores to run the extra threads? :)
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and you know I do a lot of physics stuff...
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well current bullet as a option to run it on own thread
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: his patch also "ignores small movements" but Bullet already has that feature
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: his reasoning if fine.. for a desktop game
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Im inclined to say NO to the proposed patch but would like MrBlue to chime in
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: make sure my commentys are accurate
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: even on a standalone running on a desktop with a viewer.. the viewer wants the gpu
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway guess there can be some sue cases of ppl with a machine just to run a single region with a 5090
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It woul d be nice to have a GPU option... as an option, NOT default
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting.
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if the comp can handle it
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: i see ppl doing 5000 Euros donations on twitch.. so guess there are ppl with machines like that to spare :)
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya joe
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll reach out to MrBlue to see if he can chime in
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on that proposed Bullet patch
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well above all im not moving if it does not work on all the platforms we want, inc apple silicon
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree, needs to be cross platform same code base and features
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we do thank the efford and th contribution
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ofc
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, positive language in the Mantis is needed
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm i do have here another with some changes to pgsql
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: even of rejected
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ill look a bit more and possible ally
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: aply
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: for some reason ppl sent a patch directly to me..
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Any other items for today?
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: nothing new, still working on the conference website
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will keep you busy for a day or three. :)
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will call this gathering done and dusted.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-09-02

2025-09-02T19:13:22Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. Small group today. People must..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. Small group today. People must be on vacation or back at school.
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lry.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you!
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes school started today
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. The CNE ended yesterday so that was always the indicator that summer is over and it is back to school.
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: And we picked a date for the OpenSimulator Community Conference - the first weekend in December, if that is good for you. December 6-7, 2025
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I've been out sick, but we'll start working on the conference site soon
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll put that on my calendar
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks!
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC date, not you being out sick. :)
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Speaking of vacations, someone appears to have been on one. I don't see any changes to the source tree being made this past week.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh? jezz lazy devs
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I started work on writing migration and schema files for master, after a few months of testing it appears the system is solid enough. I have a large migration coming up which will give that another test though
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Convincing my brain to work on boring things isn't easy
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me steps away for a moment
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( wonde how is weather in antarctica now...)
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good, Vincent. Yes, we do have to deal with the boring stuff every now and then so we can get to the fun stuff.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: None of it was really fun given the utter insanity that is the non-standard of sql
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Multiple rewrites of queries and routines just to deal with the weirdness of sqlite for example
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Along with a pesky bug in the map rendering which I have been unable to track down it's been a fun week
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something about additive zoom level generation causes weird artifacts over time
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: you mean, on your fork right?
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of bug in map rendering?
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't you worry, you'll get the pleasure of integrating that at some point :P
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: (hope iglo rent is cheap this time og year)
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I kept the original routine of adding new tiles to existing ones to reduce overhead, but somehow they end up rendering the water wrong, you can see spots on the map
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( err hmm are there iglos in antarctica? not sure )
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's strange as if it doesn't read the tile and assumes water color instead, but the tiles exist and doing a full refresh works perfectly
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did add some file locking so I suspect it's either that or the routine to wait until all tiles are present isn't waiting long enough
[11:18 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: (no too far north. the only thing up there is a research station)
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When the full refresh of 17000 tiles only takes 30 seconds I'm not even sure if I should worry about it or just fire that once in a while instead
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there no signal to let you know when all the tiles are present?
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I check the file modification time and if one is found that is newer than 5 minutes old I wait
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( you mean other that the nazi base where hitler is living ?)
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I've done that type of file checking before.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Course that needs refreshing as .net doesn't subscribe to inode or whatever to notice changes
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting maptile refresh on an hourly cron basically masks the problem now since that seems to work fine, but ideally the additive routine should work too since it's less work for the system
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some more trouble with libgdiplus as well
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After discovering the font rendering issue I rolled back to the previous builds that were public on apt repos from Canonical, but those builds have a massive memory leak
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So instead I went for the build published by mono, which is just slightly above that, but with the leak fixed and working font rendering
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Adjusted the wiki to note how one might need to install that now
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical has yet to respond to the issue ticket
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Frankly not making a great case for their subscription stuff if they can't even fix such bugs within 6 months
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fixed version does compile on ubuntu so there is always that as an option. I have yet to try the version winehq is maintaining
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: libgdiplus is an ongoing source of pain.
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It just drives me mad when such obvious issues that are documented and even have suspect lines of code pointed just sit there to detriment of not just us, but apparently other software is broken because of this as well
[11:26 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical is not known for being all that active in fixing these things, prolly the third time in recent history some of their stuff was so old that it had bugs I ran into
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I feel your pain. It has affected me with another project.
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried the debian version, that's broken too and the dependencies it has are strange since they have no actual record in the build binary yet required them by package definition
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting libtiff5 and libgdiplus via wget and dpkg is easy enough for now to fix things
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If the winehq version works with font rendering there is always the option to make a .deb for that one or straight include the dll in the shipped binary
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have not tested if this also breaks on mac os, but it might be broken there too
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hearing from FS that they had reports of textures failing to load on the latest release, but so far apparently no reports from OS side of things on that. Latest I have is that there is some suspect code being narrowed down so might see a fix for that
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried reproducing that a couple days ago, but no luck
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems rather random and only happening when a lot of regions are loaded as well, something we no longer really see
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe that's just my lower view distance setting, but I rarely see more than 5 regions loaded at once these days even if they just regular size
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: now all are improving their regions using 2k textures everywhere, including nano prims
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's apparently not overload of vram or whatever. I suspect more cache or network things, but that's just my gut feeling
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After the object cache thing I am distrustful of viewer caches xD
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well degradated cpus did error telling nor enough vram in same games
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: but no idea "not load"can mean a lot of things
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly is hardware independent error, but yeah crossed my mind too
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well they remain gray
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some load, but most are gray
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: and sl only opensim only or both ?
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From what I heard no reports on our end, so that makes me think it's network since we have slight differences there
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Terse updates and such
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: what does "our end"mean in that context ?
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly reverting a lot of code from fixes seems to help so there seems to be a clue as to what it is
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: and reverting code from what fixes?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well no reports related to OpenSim, only a problem at SL
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Viewer side code related to changes from last release
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok ty
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recall a similar problem years and years ago where textures would randomly stop loading, but that was around the time Hippo was a thing so don't remember what the problem was. Don't think it's related
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: users may just became color blind
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reject textures, embrace basic colors!
[11:45 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( no snoring here please)
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: i was hoping Cuga could come to this meeting
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have code contributions for Bullet on mantis, without apple silicon support
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: maybe next week :)
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavin also
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did talk to him about that and he wants to poke mb to see if the changes to that are useful
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No point in building mac os version when it doesn't offer anything useful or breaks stuff in the process
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: last seems added more threads to its use
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess coder does not know that some run 100 regions per PI core
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well per box ( pi or not )
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing all good sysadmin practices out the window isn't really something you can adjust for
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: opensim is not a desktop game
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: well all apps need proper balance of thread use
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: True
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: something dotnet only gets worse, if allowed
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing more at it doesn't necessarily mean more performance when in the end it all has to sync up to build a frame
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: wome forks did remove SmartThreadpool
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ignoreing that it does allow for better threading control
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: and does not use ms thread managing p[arameters
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can rip out and replace all sorts of things, most of that doesn't really offer any better experience given it then still has to run other slow code
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: like only asking for a real new thread 2 seconds later
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm or 1 or something that high
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that bullet will add its own manager from cpp libs
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: so possible bullet will run on tyhe nice E-cores :)
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And you can hardly force these things either. I tried doing manual gc after map tile render to free that memory up quicker, but no amount of force gc stuff I added did anything, it just held onto that memory for 5 minutes and that's that
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: you have no real way to tell gc to release anuthing
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's become pretty clear now yeah
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: force gc is only like ask 'can you please check for mem to release?'
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: many times gc just ignores it
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it and it appears more stubborn than me so I capitulate and just left a delay in there
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks, dear friends, for a great meeting. We are thankful for your ideas and for keeping our dream alive. *hugs all around*
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I must dash away to work and dream of space exploration. *winks*
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wishing you a lovely day! Pardon my interruption.
[12:01 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah rl also calls me...
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: have a corvette stuck on a planet somewhere
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops nm
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Teaching classes and building corvettes...
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bon voyage!
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: so any another for todya ?
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: other issue i mean..
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok cya next week if not before :)
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays meeting as we are no past the hour mark.
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: now past
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-08-26

2025-08-26T19:01:46Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Joe Magarac: Allo. [11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Joe Magarac: Allo.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi JNoe
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Joe
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a bit commit this week, huge, best commit ever, they say, best commit of the year, that's what they say
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: who had ?
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What was it for?
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Imagine the commit messages if that person made them
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Imagine the code...
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: what are you talking about? lol
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: weaving
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inventory thing
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe he is good at making threaded code
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: my commit ?
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ;P
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no idea, but talking about commits and last week code changes
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There were a few commits this past week.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes i made a little fix on inventory, adding a missind urlencode on folder name
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact reported by Some Tampa person
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: also had to force Yengine scripts reset and recompile, sadly losing state, Due to changes a few weeks ago
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: and that was it
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm surprised the inventory thing had not come up earlier, it's been like that for a long time ever since melanie and diva came up with that mess basically
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: err forced that by updateing the compiler and serializer versions
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: no one uses silly chars in inventory
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I found over 200 entries with more than one leading space so people must have used them over time
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact the rules should be more restrictive, like no space
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, lets get back to MS DO naming
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DOS
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Enforce camelCase lol
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: well in many things we never left those >(
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: and unless you are chinese or similar, no reason
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: well even those type en
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. the urlencode is back there and some chars do wrok again
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh there was one more piece of news that happened worth mentioning
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: About a week ago I ran updates on machinery running ubuntu 24 noble and that broke libgdiplus again
[11:15 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyone tried Debian 13 yet?
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have the iso sitting around haven't gotten around to installing it
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I didn't know it was out.
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might be impacted as well
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: about a week or so
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am not exactly sure how it broke, but the only broken part seems to be font rendering
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: think linux distros are great on breaking soffware
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well now win updates trash ssds
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Somehow it's unable to load any font that isn't of fixed glyph type, so svg fonts and such more modern ones just break displaying boxes instead
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MS want everything stored in their cloud
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: network boot even
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The upside is that you can fetch the old version from 22 jammy and install that along with the libtiff5 dependency and it works again
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You just have to fetch the .deb and install them downgrading the installed version
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Leave it to Canonical to fuck up a compile
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not their first blunder
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems that the problem has been around for months now and there is an open bug report so maybe it'll get fixed at some point, even blind chickens find a kernel once in a while
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not really that feasible, but it might at some point become necessary to ship libgdiplus along with binaries
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The problem is the dependencies and various system configs between distros make that rather complex
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It depends on pango, cairo, libtiff and more
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If you grabbed an older copy of libgdiplus and tiff5 It raises the question as to which is faulty.which
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it have anything to do with more and more Wayland code creeping into Linux distros?
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well font rendering is supposed to be cairo and pango, but I only noticed around the time libtiff was moved to 6, so it's possible that it is just a bad compile not having setup the dependencies properly or something
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From the issue ticket that exists it seems that possibly it was a problem with pango and code was removed that should have stayed or fixed
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: are they using libgdi from wine?
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's also not clear
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The package info lists mono as maintainer, but they kinda gave it to winehq, but seemingly not officially either
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: the wine one did got a few changes in may
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: and jun
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It seems they took it and announcing as such, but mono team may have never handed over the connections with the distros
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I also can't find any builds from winehq, just the code
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: mono team is ms team
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: no changes in 6 years or so
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might be that they aren't allowed to hand over control over it, leaving the distros to do that
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: 4 years
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://github.com/mono/libgdiplus
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If nothing happens with the distro version of it and the issue ticket remains stale I may just email the winehq maintainer of it to ask if they have any clue as to what's going on
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: https://gitlab.winehq.org/mono/libgdiplus.git had changes recently as i said
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical and others may have to say "ok we are gonna grab libgdiplus from these guys now, bye ms", wouldn't surprise me
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only other option is fetching source, setting up runners and rolling our own version of it and the dependencies for different distros. A lot of work, but not impossible
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: "Make system_fonts initialization thread-safe."
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At first I thought it was only the custom fonts through privatefontcollection that broke due to the addmemory way of loading them, but even system wide fonts were broken if they were newer ones with svg scaling or whatever that is
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The old stuff like courier new works fine
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But the ubuntu one, at least the modern version of that wouldn't load
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea what source they use
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: but they keep breaking things
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: dotnet from them is broken a lot of time
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Compiling libgdiplus is not too difficult, I used to have a environment for that back when it had that massive memory leak
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: and how are your impostors doing Joe?
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: and dayturn ?
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: Impostors? Working on the server side. I have to have my own server to go scan regions and distribute info.
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: It
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: outch
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: is at animats.info but not doing much yet.
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I jsut worked on the build environment last week to make sure I can actually build the Windows version
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://github.com/mono/libgdiplus has the following message This repository was archived by the owner on Mar 7, 2025. It is now read-only.
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah ms wants libgdiplus dead and buried
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you bet
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same with System.Drawing for some reason
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does linux... theirs things do not
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but their excuse is to refuso to mantain libgd adn its dependencies they cant control
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: like cairo and pango
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Have you gusy seen the AI generated environments Google has demonstrated that is fully navigatable?
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: so they tell you to use things from google
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Poor billion dollar company can't afford some developers
[11:35 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can be changed too in the most recent demos
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: looks like a total SL killer too me
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to me*
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: that actually ends up having its own form of libgdi
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgdiplus/+bug/2069473 For anyone that wants to also complain to Canonical about breaking things :)
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://genie3.ai
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How is that meant to kill SL, you can't grief others with it so why bother logging in xD
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure you can fill it with all kinds in a couple iterations
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have athe AI hallucinate up something
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LSD seems more energy efficient
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: true, but nobody cares about that
[11:42 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except some net-zero nuts
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: couple iterations, lsd.. errr that is a bit out this meeting theme
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:43 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not like SL is particularly energy efficient, yeah?
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well we are well and truly screwed on that front already so even that wouldn't help
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: this fs limited to 30fps is using 30W on cpu here
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They want the holodeck
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff plus 130W on gpu
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was referring to the SL backend
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh ll pays for that, not on my bills
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't that just mostly AWS at this point?
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure about energy efficient, but certainly not cost effective
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of machine learning things though, still looking for someone that has some knowledge in that for a project I been on and off on for a while now
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just throwing that out there
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even the Rsapberry PI has machine learning add on hardware these days
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: facepalm
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there must be tons of info out there
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ai is becoming like DOOM, trying to run on a damn toaster next... that's how you get pyromaniac toasters wanting to burn the world
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh a few wasted silicon on doing math with low precision floats... and they call it ai
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you make the AI HW the toaster
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: even a stm32 controler has ai now ( ARM based )
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: "ai"
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: People used to fold proteins to heat their houses, now it's ai generating smut
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes "ai"
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: every thing has AI now
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: more like actually incompetent
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: or made by AI
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: nonsense publicity
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: delete prod database
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: ai designed toilet paper.. ofc
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Half way through the roll morphs into sandpaper or worse
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: err don't say that... some readers my rush looking where to buy that
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr hmm nm :p
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: xD
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:54 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that and pizza glue
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we are close to meeting end time, any other issue?
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's usually my question. :)
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Thanks all! Off to next meeting.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: With nothing further for today I'll call the meeting to a close.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls, cya you all next week, if not before
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-08-19

2025-08-19T19:27:00Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: well welcome :) [11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: about last week code changes [11:12 AM] orbert tatha..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: well welcome :)
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: about last week code changes
[11:12 AM] orbert tatham: The row boat I just rezzed matches correctly
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah somethign sttrage on that previus owner transmission on HG
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: well on new code i did add a few lsl things
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: llmapbeacon
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: llGetRenderMaterial
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: llIsLinkGLTFMaterial
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: and llWorldPosToHUD
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: also some fix for mantis 9212
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofter tp was not working between 2 regions on diferent instances if target was in view range
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 9213 also fixed when some code came back from vacation
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: ald made ubODE teh default physics engine on the ini files
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hurray
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: ahh yes.. also a fix for 9213
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: for the record before the start of log, Obert was reporting some issue with pims last ower on HG
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: it somehow guests changed...
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: err gets!
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel mb regions are as good as me typing..
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only thing that really stores last owner is prims on region, inventory doesn't and neither does asset data, so that part is mostly down to the transfer
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: lastowner is stored on all the above
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm at most see a option to store uuid zero on oars
[11:24 AM] orbert tatham: It the prim has one set of data in OSGrid's Asset database and a different set of data in the other grid's database, would the OSGrid set override the on where it came from when I rez it here?
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea need to look
[11:25 AM] orbert tatham: What I am wondering is if the asset/uuid is in the OSGrid database and the same uuid is in AMV database, I got the item in AMV but rezzed it here
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel all code assumes uuids are unique across the universe
[11:26 AM] orbert tatham: That wouold make sense of things
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is a hg limitation
[11:27 AM] orbert tatham: Agreed
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: but you said that on original grid that example uuid was 8... and not it is 7...
[11:28 AM] orbert tatham: yes - e8... originally, and 75... now
[11:35 AM] orbert tatham: When you rez something out of inventory, it hanges the group on it to math where you are rezzing it. ould the rezz ode also be pulling the "previous owner" field out of the OSGrid database instead of the one in inventory?
[11:35 AM] orbert tatham: Sorry keyboard issues
[11:35 AM] orbert tatham: .
[11:35 AM] orbert tatham: +
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was the original group owned?
[11:38 AM] orbert tatham: Not deeded to the group that I know of
[11:38 AM] orbert tatham: Not certain, though
[11:39 AM] orbert tatham: I will have to look at the vendors and the scripts in them
[11:41 AM] orbert tatham: The UUID that shows up as Previous Owner" is that of someone who could very possibly be reselling the ideam in his shop in OSGrid
[11:45 AM] orbert tatham: The original item is "no transfer" but we all know how wasily that is bypassed
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: uuid on my test prim is right
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When rezzing an item out it has to fetch additional data, because assets and inventory alone don't have all that is necessary to build the scene part, there are only a few paths in code that manipulate the last owner id, rest just takes what data they receive
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: made by a alt on my grid.. and did bring it here with my main alt there that gave it to me
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: what are you talkinng about__
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: inve has all the data
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: objects are serielized into inventory
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Could the issue be caused by someone taking ownership in God mode?
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: same code as oars, basicly
[11:47 AM] orbert tatham: That was my thought as well, Cuga
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: so all info is there
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inventoryitems table has no lastownerID field, only owner and creator
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel and worked fine on mu test
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rez code is complicated, it's somewhere in there fetching data from inventory and assets to build the sop, but hardly any code actually interfacing with last owner to set it to something else, that only appears in context of group id
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i was told a bout things from user inventorynot prims inventory
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe I remember it wrong but when doing hg doesn't the user retain its asset information from the region they came from, meaning transfer data is pulled via that region?
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause it must be pulling the last owner from something other than user inventory
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i did text a hg tp and last owner was fine
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So either the origin region reporting wrong data, some interaction with group id or potentially an object where the rootpart last owner is somehow corrupted
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's really the only places that interacts to build the sop that ends up as base for the viewer data request
[11:54 AM] orbert tatham: It came from AMV, and the other grid I tested it on that reported it correctly was (I think) running Diva code
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think someone taking it in god mode, and then perhaps more ownership transfers, could also account for the change
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have seen it a few times that last owner just displayed loading... cause the data was somehow missing or couldn't be turned into an actual name due to the remote endpoint being dead
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: loading is viewers crap
[11:55 AM] orbert tatham: Seen that in the creator field, too - the limitations of just passing the UUID
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: and guess worse with hg uuids
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well no idea
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: lastonwer seems to be where it is needed
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: how another uuid gets tehre.. no idea
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Creator data is fixed as uui or uuid to it so that will always display, if not the profile picture when the endpoint is dead, but last owner id only exists on the rezzed prim, not in inventory or assets. At least I can't see a field that would hold it and assets xml doesn't seem to have it either. The oar serializer pulls it from the sop, but where the transfer over hg to rez gets it from... it's somehow building the sop from somewhere
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: is is on SERIELIZED DATA.. grrr
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: like everything else on a asset
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: object asset
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: and that is informative info only... no real need to waste more than ncessary on it
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. no idea of the full history of those objects.. and some more debuf on those is needed
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: to find how the 75 is injected there
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: the uuid 75.. i mean
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: withing same grid, on other regions it does show the right last owner?
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: well guess we need to ask on next meeting :)
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing here
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: oh orbert...
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: [12:03:10] (You): within same grid, on other regions it does show the right last owner
[12:05 PM] orbert tatham: Sorry, momentary crash
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: ?
[12:06 PM] orbert tatham: yes, on the grid where it originated, it shows the same multiple places
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: well some hg vodoo then
[12:06 PM] orbert tatham: the correct person
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: correct person is other level.. i mean same uuid :)
[12:07 PM] orbert tatham: Right, sorry, sloppy terminology
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah typical HG :)
[12:07 PM] orbert tatham: :P
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what if someone on grid B deliberately used the same uuid as someone else on grid A?
[12:07 PM] orbert tatham: :P
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for their avi
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: that is the other level i meant
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: for on this case the uuid did change
[12:08 PM] orbert tatham: Yeah, I made sure the UUIDs were not the same before I brought you the problem
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: uuid collision is another problem
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: that is not taken in consideration on last owner i guess
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: but obert does report a diferent uuid.. no.. well no idea...
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: just ti worked fine on my test
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well in other news. Spent last week taking out System.Drawing and dropping SkiaSharp in. Essentially re-implementing the functions used by current code. Just to see how much work that ultimately would be should System.Drawing completely disappear. Quite a few things will need adjusting in libomv due to the dependency, but actual code changes are fairly minimal. Most things can be added back in with relative ease. In fact I mostly copy pasted code and vibe coded the complicated math stuff. It compiles at least. Doesn't work quite right, but that's for later me to figure out. So in summary, System.Drawing can go bye bye and we'll be fine :) Of course currently no reason to replace it while System.Drawing still works fine.
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that something for resilience with future dotnet?
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: bc system.draw has actually less dependencies that skia
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: and they are very visble while skia are hidden by nuget etc
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: SkiaSharp is what Microsoft recommends to use instead so that's part of why I looked at that. There is another option, but that seems less easy to implement
[12:12 PM] Ubit Umarov: skiashark is just a wrapper aroung google skia, compiled in native code
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yep
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: so we need all its dependencies for ALL platrforms
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: and i even have no idea where they are lol
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: well
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are in the nuget packages
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Under the runtime folder
[12:14 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you look on nuget for skia you can find the platform specific stuff
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: thei are listed on nuget
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: https://www.nuget.org/packages/SkiaSharp/#dependencies-body-tab
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: apparently there only win and macos are supported
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: err and android..
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: etc
[12:16 PM] orbert tatham: Interesting - Rust libraries have a port of a Skia subset called tiny-skia - I will have to look into it further
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: don-t see linux there.. whatver
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The biggest issue it has is that the in-memory stuff changed so code using that will fail spectacularly
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: move to skia is moving to even worse evel
[12:17 PM] Ubit Umarov: evil
[12:17 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Eh, it's alright. I thought it would be worse, but most of it is essentially the same thing
[12:18 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Honestly thought it would be near impossible to do
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: well the worse we may need is to unglue system.drawing out of dotnet source tree
[12:18 PM] Ubit Umarov: making it i independent project
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: thing some already di dthat for private things
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: think
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc a pain. since it is inside the same source tree, calling things all over the place
[12:19 PM] orbert tatham: Have to be careful - Micro$haft could have snuck some copyrights into it since thye owned Mono
[12:19 PM] Ubit Umarov: some internal to dotnet, bc reasons
[12:19 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is actual upside to Skia though, some functions internally use memory operations that are much faster so I wonder if all the in-memory stuff is even necessary with it
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: duhh it is all inmemory
[12:20 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go , have a great week everyone :)
[12:20 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly seems near impossible to implement LockBits properly without either not working right or doing a fun access violation
[12:20 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well as in pointers unsafe
[12:20 PM] Ubit Umarov: cpuis cant read thigns outside memory >P
[12:20 PM] orbert tatham: Later, Cuga
[12:21 PM] Ubit Umarov: that is a change ms did all over the place
[12:21 PM] Ubit Umarov: qitht the unsafe.as.. crap
[12:21 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't like that either, hate pointers, but can't argue with how fast it is
[12:21 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Deal with the devil basically
[12:22 PM] Ubit Umarov: well unless in debug, that unsafe tyhing is as fast
[12:22 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc guess that made GC even worse...
[12:22 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really worse, just insanely lazy
[12:23 PM] Ubit Umarov: but only reason to lock things in memory is to tell gc to not touch them
[12:23 PM] Ubit Umarov: guess gc really does not need that
[12:24 PM] Ubit Umarov: because on the rare ocasions compiler does things right the asm code is same as c compile would do
[12:25 PM] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:25 PM] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:25 PM] Ubit Umarov: any other issue ?
[12:26 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope
[12:26 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok hope to see you all next week :)
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-08-12

2025-08-12T19:24:43Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins* [11:0..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm moving a little slow today.. juggling classes
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not chainsaws?
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me pats the dino
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin! :D
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi everyone
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It has been a busy summer, How have you all been=?
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Busy. :)
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sun is certainly busy shining
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, it's been too warm to code xD
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Heya Gavin!
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: i do have a intel 13gen.. cant overheat it
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you too
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we're discussing dates for OSCC and open to ideas for this year's conference -- let me know if you have anything that you'd like to see or cover *smiles*
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Community conference
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: my goal is more awareness about opensim...increased involvement and use, sharing and using these amazing spaces to promote better ways of learning online
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a good goal to have.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we know how immersive experiences are memorable.. and great ways to simulate experiences, but also were a lifeline during Covid.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our community is thankful for your hard work... even when the sun is hot... we keep cool
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: last week of classes for one of my schools, so do not mind me if I multi task *grins*
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any plans to update the code running the OSCC grid before the event?
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: But think about what you would enjoy in a community gathering..anything of interest to you? And let me know ...
[11:16 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we had plans, but we had a few technical dependencies
[11:17 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Crista has been busy and we use a tool she supports
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[11:17 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we are also tied to certain resources... it's like dominos... lining them up to balance everything *grins*
[11:18 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we checked into it months ago, Andrew, as that is a great question
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *looks around* Not like we got anybody with experience around to help, ah well
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: when we create avatar accounts for the conference, we sometimes need many of them and fast... the two days before the conference is a flurry of activity
[11:19 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *chuckles*
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well change is welcome, but never easy, Vincent... as we want everyone to have a great conference -- but also to keep it going smoothly.
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lucky that old viewers still available, how long that will last who knows
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is a good point
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I hear rumblings through the grapevine of more nonsense cooking up at LL so brace for impact
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as Vincent?
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That recent brainfart of forcefully changing view distance being one, but there is more
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: what do we want to see for our community going forward.. the viewer is how we see and experience the world. The Core code drives everything... and the grids and their content provides the heart that balances the worlds we love and the beauty and power within them.
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that coming to "improve the user experience" of course
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would seem there is some sort of deadline for getting something presentable so lots of untested things being pushed through
[11:23 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of the half baked stuff hasn't seen any fixes in a month or so either
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We need something that sustains our spirits, too...feeds the fire, and helps stir the imagination..
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Aww, Vincent, I wouldn't refer to your work as half baked...
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me teases and grins
[11:24 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We keep each other vibrant
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would be more accurate at the moment given I feel like an oven potato
[11:25 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we need change requests, new ideas, and joy
[11:25 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is hard to think when you are cookin' at the computer. We get it.
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In OpenSim perhaps, but LL needs to stop fucking around with things and finish their damn homework
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no they have sped through the glTF functionality and that is only half baked
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess we will see a default Unity based viewer very soon
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *nods* I expect the pressure there is to bridge with content across a broader community than SL or Opensim
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: they added gltf object import
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well kinda
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: the scene import thing seems delayed
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, would allow them to take advantage of other 3D marketplaces of content... and for residents to sell in them ...
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it is only added glft to collada supported input formats
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems working on fs beta
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me slips away for a moment
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great more junk from the internet that was made by folks that just bashed their fists on the keyboard until a model plopped out
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Lyr, but possibly for distributing a viewer on other platforms
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: just material is only imported still
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: we need to upload the material from the same gltf file
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Vincent
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm there is a allow control fo rmesh uploads
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: we always allow
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: seems like Google demonstrated a completely navigable AI generated 3D space a few days ago
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: ll demands users to tell they will respect a few rules
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: on user profile web site
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: we do have the cap
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what rules Ubit?
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: like respect of author rights
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck with that for AI generated stuff
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: well htat is user problem
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: "It's not theft if you use it to train an ai"
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course not
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ai now also forces you to accept rules avout that
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ai things
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a massive class action coming up over that in the US
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: thiunk ms made changes to lics a few days ago to pass the responsability to users of ai
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the users didn't train the models
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: like telliong that their ai my return things under copyright, and it is you job to know and avoitd ity
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: fun
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Meanwhile the weather forecast is still useless, when's ai gonna fix the real problems instead of creating more self-serving egotistical slop for people
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Akin to inventing the wheel and then only using it for a tire swing
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news the instand message protocol changed as well
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It now has a version that delivers options used for a lsl function
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Will require changes to the packet most likely so libomv
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not a huge priority at the moment, the lsl function is not that useful
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: something different than llInstantMessage?
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's still mostly the same just seems to add a few bytes for options to the end to transmit a request to place the teleport beacon somewhere
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm didnt notice those changes
[11:40 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: update of the same lsl function or a new one?
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway messages are working
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlMapBeacon
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh... ty
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The mapdestination function already works as it sends a specific request type packet to the viewer instead, but this function appears to use instant message instead
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm and who cares abotu that?
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lsl feature parity mostly, but it does make me wonder if they extend those message options further or if this will just remain a hack to get this function to work
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: History would suggest the latter, but even blind chickens find a corn once in a while
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: lsl parity is not a thing when we do not care about a feature
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: ie experiences for example
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway ill look
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We do have the mapdestination thing which kinda works the same, just force opens the map every time, seems to be the only difference I can see
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: well looking to the function names seems who made that was thinking that was a teleport
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: "SendScriptTeleportRequest"
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: and see no relation with instantemessage
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm th ell packet used on the map thing also as teleport on name
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: has even
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well will look
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll send you what tj sent me looking into the viewer side think that'll make it easier to figure out
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's changes to libomv as well as far as I can tell so low priority anyways
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was gonna convert the packet to bytes and just frankenstein it on there, but that's a bit silly even for me
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap i see it
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: they added a Options field
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: well ill look
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: not a major feature
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah just felt I should mention since I stumbled across that recently
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: ty
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Five minutes left in the hour already. Time flies. Any other questions/comments for today?
[11:56 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nothing here
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I went through logs the other day and found a few more grids, added them to my list and now see nearly 200 grids running dev code reporting stats, over 400 grids reported as available and online
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That nonsense from the UK forcing platforms like OpenSim to verify user age apparently has seen more backlash, so maybe, hopefully, some of that will be changed
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wikipedia just list the lawsuit
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they will be forced to
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lost*
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a lot of grids all needing users. How do your figures compare to the ones from Hypergrid Business website (if that is still going)?
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess that sets presendent
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The EU supposedly is looking to do something similar, which just isn't rooted in reality imo, but yeah we'll see how this turns out, hopefully logic prevails
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hgb doesn't do stats anymore, they haven't posted anything in over a month either
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think that's pretty much dead at this point
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I only look at what has connected and some other sources that reported grids, those are checked, I don't actively receive information about new things though
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I had read something about stopping the stats.
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I would imagine I got about 80% of the metaverse recorded
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of the missing stuff might not even be online anymore so adding it makes little sense
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already have thousands that have been offline
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for collecting that information, Vincent. Must be a lot of work.
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's no big deal, mostly automated at this point
[12:10 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OK guys, I have to retreat to RL
[12:10 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you next week
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: oh me 2
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Good to see you, Gavin.
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya all next week if not before :)
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I also need to go RL. Take care everyone, see you soon
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for today I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. ee you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-08-05

2025-08-05T19:18:24Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi Andrew [11:..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi Andrew
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great to see you
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If we are all very quiet we might be able to hear the rattling of the gears in Ubit's head pondering the quirks of YEngine :)
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that has to be Vincent,
[11:09 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm multi tasking as usual *grins*
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Better gear rattling then crickets, I look at that code and my brain just commits sudoku
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Later this month, we'll begin working on OSCC and we're setting the dates for a weekend in December
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Sudoku, eh?
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *smiles*
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I guess, I don't actually know how that works, me no good with the numbers
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well, it is much better than seppuku
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: love sudoku, but then, love logic problems and retrograde analysis in chess
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of fixes this week
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: love uses sodoku books... all solved
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me laughs
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: *used*
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: well about code changes.. yes there where few, one just pushed now :)
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: got another report about issues with http server, so did some split of the try catch in the area to pin point the location a bit better
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: also made them ignore some errors, keeping http accept active until told do die
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Right now I remember we had some deadlocks reported with that
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: vicent did report a issue on accounting of heap usage on yengine
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: those where on handling of events arguments, so made a few changes on that... last just a bit ago ( mantis 9211 )
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel and that was it.. not much
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mesh uploads had some code changes to modernize the texture assignments and add some sane defaults to it
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I do have to say mesh should follow good practice and collada standards else results can be unpredictable
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh there was that also
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Relying on safety rails is not good practice, certainty over defaults
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: improved the decode of faces textures in same cases.
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In most game engines everything has to have a texture even if just a blank one in order to render lighting properly so just assigning a color is not proper. Code now handles that a bit more gracefully
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: just color should be fine
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: if that is all you need
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc ppl love to complicate things..
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In many older game engines that don't have sanity checks you wouldn't get proper lighting on those, it just all look like full bright all the time or you'd get no shadows rendered on the surface
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nowadays game engines have so many safety rails you can stuff the most unoptimized mess into them and despite the framerate you'd be none the wiser
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and and pay the electric power bill
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Keep SSD manufacturers in business as well
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: think same games now have TB of data to get them all
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm enshrouded dev tools to make mods ? think those are TB
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a report today from FS that apparently someone managed to associate a outfit folder with a thumbnail, but in testing seems that would always return an error. Not sure how that person managed to do it. I think we don't have any of that implemented, not even partially right?
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: inventory code viewers use for us (udp) do no support the entry for thimbs
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: i did most of the code for them.. them... Duhhh moment bc of that
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: as soon we see ll no longer uses lludp we can change the protocol adding that entry
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: llusp for inventory i mean
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: lludp also
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From the report it seems the viewer somehow still allowed assignment and cached the "result" locally, but of course the server side can't mirror it so after relog it would disappear again
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying that though should return an error, not sure how they bypassed that
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers to them for textures..
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: do
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: well default ones
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh not doing anymore ?\
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ahh we need to hover the mouse for a while
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that works cause the asset is all it needs, but for the outfit assignment it should error out, somehow that user managed to not get an error even though the cap is not available
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really strange thing and I got no further info unfortunately as the issue is privated
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Such a silly system frankly. Wasn't a problem for almost two decades and suddenly gets added
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The texture preview sure, but thumbnails.... ugh
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: well like RGB leds on pc closed boxes
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: what a absurd to have those on ram etc
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but.. hard to get ram without them sometimes
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: or fans
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: some ppl love useless things
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Shiny useless things
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least the pretty ram usually comes with actual heat spreaders so at least it does that
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: i was forced to add a LED to a product once
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: a product without a shining led does not sell
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One day we'll have edible LEDs...
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( they wanted it to blink also.. but seen my face and didn-t ask for that )
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: good it was before RGB leds..
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: well looking to my keyboard leds all over.. jezz )
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: who decided that a keyboard needs shinning leds on all keys ??
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: jezzz
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: and 3 bottons to change how they shine
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did leave my local test standalone running when cuga last reported issues with external things killing his http server. I did collect a few attackers looking for open ports and such things, mostly port scanners and vulnerability scanners. Only briefly checked server logs for those. If they send random bytes I could see that somehow bricking things or if they are sending looping redirects
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect cuga will catch the problematic thing at some point, just a matter of time
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looking generally into server logs I do see a lot of crawlers attempting to hack into wordpress and joomla installs via known vulnerable parts. Scanning for git repos, databases etc. Not always with the intention to get those holes patched
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of those seem known that when you look their IP up the abuse reports are plentiful. It's the ones without reports that are the potentially really dangerous ones
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My biggest worry is that even if we figure out what it is, that it might be something that hints at other potential vectors. Adding tons of checks into the system will slow it down though and http isn't the fastest to begin with
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best advice is still to use a proxy in front of it, which should filter some of the bogus things out when they don't constitute a valid request in the first place, but even that is not universal
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given there is no threadfunc error or watchdog seeing it break it must be something that keeps the thread running and just endlessly busy
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: i got reports that did had logs
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried to replicate the problem adding a infinite loop into it, but even that didn't stop it from accepting new connections
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: messages like 'An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host'
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have a catch that does kill the accept loop in case of unknown exception
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: and that was unknown
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: well un handled
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: i made code ignoe some on commit a few hours ago
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah I saw, but I am not sure if that resolves all cases. Then again normally those things have their own internal safeties which should be kicking in
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something funky going on the internet
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: isn't funky part of internet spec ?
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah but I liked it better when that manifested in memes and other silly things, not constant hunting for unpatched CVE's
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll go through some more logs and see if I can find some IPs that don't match users, maybe one of them is known for sending bullshit data to random servers
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is already pretty sad when a normal firewall has 15000 entries of some 200000 IPs just to shut the worst offenders out
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Outside of threads crashing we also don't really have a good way to forcefully stop and create new ones either since Thread.Abort is to be deprecated
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks.
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The replacement for that I wouldn't exactly trust to nuke an actual stuck thread
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news 177 grids I can now fetch stats from, getting close to half the known metaverse
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: (sorry, I've been on a work related call)
[12:15 PM] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you next week, if not before, have fun
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry that I was somewhat unavailable after all today.
[12:17 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Monitoring Module/de

2025-08-04T00:40:05Z

Manni: Created page with "{{Quicklinks|Monitoring_Module}} =Einleitung= Diese Funktion bietet eine Möglichkeit, Daten pro Region abzurufen. HINWEIS: Diese Funktion ist veraltet und könnte in zukü..."

{{Quicklinks|Monitoring_Module}}

=Einleitung=

Diese Funktion bietet eine Möglichkeit, Daten pro Region abzurufen.

HINWEIS: Diese Funktion ist veraltet und könnte in zukünftigen Versionen des Simulators entfernt werden. Siehe [[Monitoring]] für Informationen zu den aktuellen Monitoring-Schnittstellen.

=Aktivierung=

In OpenSimulator 0.7.2 ist sie immer aktiv. Im aktuellen Entwicklungscode ist sie standardmäßig aktiv, kann aber deaktiviert werden durch

[Monitoring]
Enabled = false

=Daten abrufen=
== OpenSimulator 0.7.2 und früher ==
In OpenSimulator 0.7.2 und früher registriert jede Region eine URL auf dem eingebauten HTTP-Server von OpenSimulator im Format

/monitorstats/<region-uuid>

Wenn du

show http-handlers

in der Region-Konsole eingibst, siehst du im HTTP-Abschnitt etwa Folgendes:

/monitorstats/dd5b77f8-bf88-45ac-aace-35bd76426c81
/SStats/
/CAPS/VS/
regionImagedd5b77f8bf8845acaace35bd76426c81
/monitorstats/dd5b77f8-bf88-45ac-aace-35bd76426c82
regionImagedd5b77f8bf8845acaace35bd76426c82

wobei die UUID nach monitorstats der Regions-ID entspricht.

== OpenSimulator Entwicklungscode ==
Im Entwicklungscode von OpenSimulator können Regionsdaten auch über den Regionsnamen abgerufen werden. Daher ergibt die Eingabe von

show http-handlers

etwa Folgendes:

/monitorstats/dd5b77f8-bf88-45ac-aace-35bd76426c81
/monitorstats/test
/SStats/
/CAPS/VS/
regionImagedd5b77f8bf8845acaace35bd76426c81
/monitorstats/dd5b77f8-bf88-45ac-aace-35bd76426c82
/monitorstats/test2
regionImagedd5b77f8bf8845acaace35bd76426c82

wobei die Daten auch über den Regionsnamen (test und test2) abgerufen werden können.

=Abgerufene Daten=

==Allgemein==

{| border="1"
! Stat name !! Beschreibung
|-
| AgentCountMonitor || Anzahl der Avatare in der Region.
|-
| ChildAgentCountMonitor || Anzahl der Child Agents in der Region. Diese werden von Viewern mit Avataren in benachbarten Regionen verwendet, um in die Nachbarregion zu sehen und sie zu beeinflussen.
|-
| GCMemoryMonitor || Menge des aktuell vom Garbage Collector der virtuellen Maschine belegten Speichers.
|-
| ObjectCountMonitor || Anzahl der Prims in der Region.
|-
| PWSMemoryMonitor || Private Working Set Speicher der virtuellen Maschine.
|-
| ThreadCountMonitor || Anzahl der vom aktuellen Prozess verwendeten Threads. Unter Mono möglicherweise nicht implementiert (daher immer null).
|-
| TotalFrameMonitor || Zeit in Millisekunden für das letzte Frame. In OpenSimulator 0.7.3.1 und früher war die Reserve-Frame-Zeit nicht enthalten. In späteren Versionen ist sie enthalten.
|-
| EventFrameMonitor || Zeit für die Ereignisverarbeitung im letzten Frame in Millisekunden.
|-
| LandFrameMonitor || Zeit für landbezogene Verarbeitung im letzten Frame in Millisekunden.
|-
| LastFrameTimeMonitor || Anzahl der Millisekunden seit Abschluss des letzten Region-Frames.
|-
| TimeDilationMonitor || Zeitdilatation der Physikverarbeitung im Vergleich zur Hauptszenenverarbeitung.
|-
| SimFPSMonitor || Frames pro Sekunde, die von der Szene verarbeitet werden.
|-
| AgentUpdatesPerSecondMonitor || Updates pro Sekunde, die an Viewer gesendet werden.
|-
| ActiveObjectCountMonitor || Objekte, die der Physik unterliegen.
|-
| ActiveScriptsMonitor || Skripte, die in der Region ausgeführt werden.
|-
| ScriptEventsPerSecondMonitor || Skript-Ereignisse pro Sekunde.
|-
| InPacketsPerSecondMonitor || UDP-Pakete von Viewern, die pro Sekunde verarbeitet werden.
|-
| OutPacketsPerSecondMonitor || UDP-Pakete, die pro Sekunde an Viewer gesendet werden.
|-
| UnackedBytesMonitor || Bytes, die noch nicht von Viewern bestätigt wurden. Eine dauerhaft hohe Zahl weist auf schlechte Netzwerkverbindungen zwischen Viewern und Simulator hin.
|-
| PendingDownloadsMonitor || Ausstehende Downloads vom Simulator zu Viewern. Derzeit nicht implementiert, daher immer null.
|-
| PendingUploadsMonitor || Ausstehende Uploads von Viewern zum Simulator. Derzeit nicht implementiert, daher immer null.
|-
| TotalFrameTimeMonitor || Durchschnittliche Zeit in Millisekunden für Frames in den letzten 3 Sekunden. In OpenSimulator 0.7.3.1 und früher wurde die Reserve-Frame-Zeit nicht berücksichtigt und fälschlich als Gesamtzeit eines Frames ohne Reservezeit angegeben. In späteren Versionen wird die Frame-Zeit korrekt angegeben und enthält die Reservezeit.
|-
| NetFrameTimeMonitor || Durchschnittliche Zeit in Millisekunden für Netzwerkaktivitäten in Frames der letzten 3 Sekunden. Derzeit nicht verwendet.
|-
| SimulationFrameTimeMonitor || Durchschnittliche Zeit in Millisekunden für simulationsbezogene Aktivitäten in Frames der letzten 3 Sekunden. In OpenSimulator 0.7.3.1 und früher fälschlich als Gesamtzeit eines Frames für Simulation angegeben.
|-
| AgentFrameTimeMonitor || Durchschnittliche Zeit in Millisekunden für agentenbezogene Aktivitäten in den letzten 3 Sekunden. In OpenSimulator 0.7.3.1 und früher fälschlich als Gesamtzeit eines Frames für Agenten angegeben.
|-
| ImagesFrameTimeMonitor || Wird von OpenSimulator nicht verwendet.
|-
| LastReportedObjectUpdates || Derzeit nicht verwendet.
|}

==Physik==

Alle Zeiten pro Frame beziehen sich hier auf einen Durchschnitt über die letzten 3 Sekunden.

Die folgenden Statistiken sind immer vorhanden:

{| border="1"
| PhysicsFPSMonitor || Frames pro Sekunde, die vom Physik-Code verarbeitet werden.
|-
| PhysicsFrameMonitor || Veraltet. Entspricht PhysicsFrameTimeMonitor.
|-
| PhysicsFrameTimeMonitor || Durchschnittliche Zeit für die Physikverarbeitung.
|}

Die folgenden Statistiken sind nur vorhanden, wenn collect_stats = true im Abschnitt [ODEPhysicsSettings] der OpenSim.ini gesetzt ist (ab git master 6375db1, nach OpenSimulator 0.7.3.1 Entwicklungscode). Diese Statistiken sind experimentell und können sich ändern.

{| border="1"
| ODETotalFrameMS || ODE Physikverarbeitung. Sollte mit PhysicsFrameTimeMonitor übereinstimmen.
|-
| ODEAvatarTaintFrameMS || Verarbeitung von Avatar-Taint.
|-
| ODEPrimTaintFrameMS || Verarbeitung von Prim-Taint.
|-
| ODEAvatarForcesFrameMS || Berechnung von Avatar-Kräften.
|-
| ODEPrimForcesFrameMS || Berechnung von Prim-Kräften.
|-
| ODERaycastingFrameMS || Raycasting.
|-
| ODENativeStepFrameMS || Zeit für einen Physikschritt durch nativen ODE-Code.
|-
| ODENativeSpaceCollisionFrameMS || Berechnung möglicher Kollisionen über Räume im nativen ODE-Code.
|-
| ODENativeGeomCollisionFrameMS || Auflösung tatsächlicher Kollisionen zwischen Geometrien im nativen ODE-Code.
|-
| ODEOtherCollisionFrameMS || Verarbeitung von Kollisionen, die nicht durch andere „Native“-Maßnahmen abgedeckt sind. Dies betrifft hauptsächlich Operationen im OpenSimulator-Plugin selbst, obwohl einige native ODE-Funktionen weiterhin aufgerufen werden.
|-
| ODECollisionNotificationFrameMS || Benachrichtigung anderer Teile von OpenSimulator über Kollisionen außerhalb des ODE-Plugins.
|-
| ODEAvatarUpdateFrameMS || Zeit zur Verarbeitung von Avatar-Updates aus dem Physik-Code.
|-
| ODEPrimUpdateFrameMS || Zeit zur Verarbeitung von Prim-Updates aus dem Physik-Code.
|-
| ODEAvatarContacts || Anzahl der durch Avatare verursachten Kollisionskontakte im letzten 3-Sekunden-Zeitraum. Es kann mehr als einen Kontakt pro Kollision geben.
|-
| ODEPrimContacts || Anzahl der durch Prims verursachten Kollisionskontakte im letzten 3-Sekunden-Zeitraum. Es kann mehr als einen Kontakt pro Kollision geben.
|-
| ODETotalAvatars || Anzahl der von der Physik modellierten Avatare. Sollte mit AgentCountMonitor übereinstimmen.
|-
| ODETotalPrims || Anzahl der nicht-phantomhaften Prims. Beinhaltet sowohl Physik-Prims als auch kollidierbare Prims ohne Physik. Phantom-Prims sind nicht enthalten, da sie keine Repräsentation in der Physikszene haben.
|-
| ODEActivePrims || Anzahl der Prims, die der Physik unterliegen. Sollte mit ActiveObjectCountMonitor übereinstimmen.
|}

== Beispiele ==
=== OpenSimulator 0.7.2 und früher ===
Unter OpenSimulator 0.7.2 und früher liefert der Abruf von

<pre>http://192.168.1.2:9000/dd5b77f8-bf88-45ac-aace-35bd76426c81</pre>

etwa Folgendes:

<pre>
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<data>
<AgentCountMonitor>0</AgentCountMonitor>
<ChildAgentCountMonitor>0</ChildAgentCountMonitor>
<GCMemoryMonitor>32358400</GCMemoryMonitor>
<ObjectCountMonitor>0</ObjectCountMonitor>
<PhysicsFrameMonitor>0</PhysicsFrameMonitor>
<PhysicsUpdateFrameMonitor>0</PhysicsUpdateFrameMonitor>
<PWSMemoryMonitor>354172928</PWSMemoryMonitor>
<ThreadCountMonitor>0</ThreadCountMonitor>
<TotalFrameMonitor>1</TotalFrameMonitor>
<EventFrameMonitor>0</EventFrameMonitor>
<LandFrameMonitor>0</LandFrameMonitor>
<LastFrameTimeMonitor>87</LastFrameTimeMonitor>
</data>
</pre>

=== OpenSimulator 0.7.3 und höher ===
Im aktuellen Entwicklungscode wurden weitere Statistiken hinzugefügt, sodass Sie stattdessen etwas wie

<pre>
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<data>
<AgentCountMonitor>0</AgentCountMonitor>
<ChildAgentCountMonitor>0</ChildAgentCountMonitor>
<GCMemoryMonitor>32358400</GCMemoryMonitor>
<ObjectCountMonitor>0</ObjectCountMonitor>
<PhysicsFrameMonitor>0</PhysicsFrameMonitor>
<PhysicsUpdateFrameMonitor>0</PhysicsUpdateFrameMonitor>
<PWSMemoryMonitor>354172928</PWSMemoryMonitor>
<ThreadCountMonitor>0</ThreadCountMonitor>
<TotalFrameMonitor>1</TotalFrameMonitor>
<EventFrameMonitor>0</EventFrameMonitor>
<LandFrameMonitor>0</LandFrameMonitor>
<LastFrameTimeMonitor>87</LastFrameTimeMonitor>
<TimeDilationMonitor>1</TimeDilationMonitor>
<SimFPSMonitor>56.6666679382324</SimFPSMonitor>
<PhysicsFPSMonitor>46.9475212097168</PhysicsFPSMonitor>
<AgentUpdatesPerSecondMonitor>0</AgentUpdatesPerSecondMonitor>
<ActiveObjectCountMonitor>0</ActiveObjectCountMonitor>
<ActiveScriptsMonitor>0</ActiveScriptsMonitor>
<ScriptEventsPerSecondMonitor>0</ScriptEventsPerSecondMonitor>
<InPacketsPerSecondMonitor>0</InPacketsPerSecondMonitor>
<OutPacketsPerSecondMonitor>0</OutPacketsPerSecondMonitor>
<UnackedBytesMonitor>0</UnackedBytesMonitor>
<PendingDownloadsMonitor>0</PendingDownloadsMonitor>
<PendingUploadsMonitor>0</PendingUploadsMonitor>
<TotalFrameTimeMonitor>0</TotalFrameTimeMonitor>
<NetFrameTimeMonitor>0</NetFrameTimeMonitor>
<PhysicsFrameTimeMonitor>0</PhysicsFrameTimeMonitor>
<SimulationFrameTimeMonitor>0</SimulationFrameTimeMonitor>
<AgentFrameTimeMonitor>0</AgentFrameTimeMonitor>
<ImagesFrameTimeMonitor>0</ImagesFrameTimeMonitor>
</data>
</pre>

[[Category:German Translations]]

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-07-29

2025-07-29T19:08:19Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waiting for a moment or two to..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waiting for a moment or two to see if Lyr will be joining us.
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had hoped to finally be able to report on the wifi problems, but the testers has gone on vacation so will have to wait some more for that feedback
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Vincent.
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see any code changes for this past week so there is nothing to talk about on that front. Someone else must be on vacation. :)
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit is hiding cause he knows what's coming, code review of everything I have in the pipeline xD
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hio
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Started the other day on doing some review on some of the older things to clean them up, it's not fun
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew, Vincent, and Cuga, Hi Joe, Jagga, and Ubit!
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some RL work has me occupied and not able to work on other projects at this tiem.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's summer anyways, too warm to think heh
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cocktail and hammock season
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it has been pretty toasty outside for about the past 16 days.
[11:10 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm wearing a parka at night
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh yeah seems grounded 2 is full of bugs
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: grounded 2?
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only big thing that happened over the past week has been on political side of things potentially affecting OpenSim in the UK due to new regulations regarding adult content of online platforms, but that's not really a development topic
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: At least its not some new bit of nonsense from POTUS
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What else do we have to talk about today?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess adult issues is more a grids side issue
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Joe, had the chance to test mixed region size yet?
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I left those regions on autostart so they should still be there
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, in Sharpview? New version is out. https://www.animats.com/sharpview/releases/release-0.12.0.html
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Does impostors, but none have been created for SL yet.
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Sorry,. for OS. SL has a few impostors preloaded.
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Next stage is to figure out impostor-making.
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some proof of concept style code for that, way for you to request a region by position via public grid connector and regions reporting their heightmap as raw bytes
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That combined with the maptile from robust should at least give you basic terrain
[11:18 AM] Joe Magarac: Heightmap as raw bytes would be useful. Espeically if you don't have to go to the region to get its data.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's all a bit of a hack at the moment, because I did not want to create a whole different service connector for get_region_by_position on the public side so I just stuffed it into the grid info thing
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That returns you enough data to establish a connection to the region and ask it for the heightmap though
[11:21 AM] Joe Magarac: OK. Talk details later. nagle@animats.com
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You said you wanted to test different sized var regions though just in terms of whether they would work or not. I did setup some regions for that on ZW a couple weeks ago called Bad Idea
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To my surprised at some point Firestorm seems to have made handling of that a bit less prone to crash as well, though I still wouldn't recommend such setups
[11:22 AM] Joe Magarac: I don't have ZetaWorlds support yet. Just OS Grid and Kietely's landing area.
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you are suposed to go to a region to get geta data from it
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's mainline OpenSim code, if you have osg supported so should ZW essentially
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: to have things open without any credentials checks is kinda bad karma
[11:23 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, OS is more restricrive about asset acccess than SL.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and heighmaps may be considered to have copy rights
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: So this will need a bot to visit each region.
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What do you mean by different size regions? Ones of differing sizes being up against each other or ones that are not a multiple of 256m on a side?
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=5401&y=5202&z=7
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Again, wouldn't recommend doing that, it might crash randomly
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Actually, the main limitation I have is that objects used as impostors have to have their assets accessible from any regoin you can go to without teleporting.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Vehicles have the same restriction. If you drive to another region, people must be able to see your car.
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess regions should cook own impostors like they do map
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and map is a public asset )
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a lot of cpu resources though
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah a bit more than map :)
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storing that on assets is also not good, maptiles already make a mess there, now add mesh... nah
[11:28 AM] Joe Magarac: I'd hold off on this for OS for now. I want to talk the other viewer people into supporting this.
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: The LL people like this thing and it might go into the Linden viewer.
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: Then firestorm.
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most connected lands tend to be var regions anyways, so with child agents you might find yourself in the center of 9 square kilometers of terrain as is, that's quite heavy on rendering all that terrain as is
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Add impostor mesh on top of that, not sure how well that would run in FS
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: Overhead is about 80 LI for the entire SL grid.
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: they liked the idea of a bot scanning the region with raycasts every half meter?
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: I have something like that now.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Needs a lot more work.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm trying to recruit a major bot operator.
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As module with a custom endpoint provided to viewers that could work, but not really as core part, not when you want to have mesh assets of all of that
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: Basically, I request the mesh for a mesh UUID. and some textures.
[11:33 AM] Joe Magarac: I just need to be able to do that for regions outside of draw range but reachable by region crossing.
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is only 1st neib..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact on opensim you can "cross"to regions on the other side of map
[11:34 AM] Joe Magarac: What happens if I take a vehicle for a road trip in OS? The vehicle is a long way from the region where it was rezzed.
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but well that is a undoc feature of osbjectteleport
[11:35 AM] Joe Magarac: How does a looker far from the rez point get the vehicle's mesh?
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: its official use is within same region
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Through the neighbor service they have a presence on that region and request the data from that directly, but that will not work for regions they do not have a child agent on
[11:35 AM] Joe Magarac: Or the regions share an asset server?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: not if outside view range
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The regions are the asset server(s)
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They act like an in between proxy for it
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: asset service is same on a grid
[11:36 AM] Joe Magarac: Huh. I've done road trips in OS. Got across about 10 regions.
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A viewer cannot directly talk to it, because of localized assets only present on the region
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( we are not talking HG on this )
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm im lost you talking a mess
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal regions crossings..
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think for what you want to do perhaps a full module might be the best approach. Modules have access to private side of the connectors so you can talk to the grid and request regions by position, fetch meshes and textures from them etc.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes there are no connections if outside view range.. but them also no crossings
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: I need to do some road trips and test.
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: I thought OS could do this.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: so to see any region outside view range is kinda.. odd
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: Let me get back to all of you on this. I need to test more.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: when a avatar moves into view range.. it is told to connect oo the other regions
[11:39 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, I know that.
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: and all it shows is what it gets from that region as child agent
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I mentioned that before you can use the viewer asset caps in OpenSim too, but you'd have to figure out some fallback to local region assets for anything that isn't found or somehow detect which assets associated with objects happen to be dynamic textures
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i dont see why out of view range is a thing
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: out of view range should mean that... not there...
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: As a practical matter, do the big grids, OSGRid and ZetaWorlds use a common asset server?
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: it irritakes me that there is no view range on local terrain
[11:41 AM] Joe Magarac: Then this will work for the big grids.
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: each grid as a assets service
[11:41 AM] Joe Magarac: That works for me.
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: has even
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: you just interact with it via region caps... not CDN like things
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( well a region can tell you to use a CDN thing )
[11:42 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Region gives you a cap for fetching meshes and textures, which can be any URL.
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: but why talk abotu impostors on regions outside view range?
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: os regions can be 4km wide.. possible 8
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: So you can see mountains in the distance.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Fly around and see a runway far away.
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: on that ouside view range MUST mean that
[11:44 AM] Joe Magarac: Beyond normal view range, you see impostors, if avaiablle.
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: even RL has a max view range
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:44 AM] Joe Magarac: Like this https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/blakeseagood1.png
[11:45 AM] Joe Magarac: Tech note: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/impostor.html
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: pout nasty paterns on water
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Those will become 3D models.
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Like this: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/lookatimpostorcampion1024.png
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For how complex this gets and since you want to run raycast like things perhaps the best option is a module. OpenSim can load modules from dll so you could publish a impostor.dll containing code that provides the viewer with endpoints to call such as region_ip:publicport/get_impostors which internally would ask the region to seek around itself for regions and request impostors from them if they have any available
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: The green peak is an impostor.
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: This may not take server side support at all. It doesn't in SL.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh why not a sculpt? :)
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: Maybe a cap to tell viewers where to find the impostor database.
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: Because you can't mesh-reduce a sculpt.
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: Sculpts are kind of retro.
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Centrally storing them on assets is not going to work in OpenSim, because you have region operators from all over and the asset systems aren't meant for "updates" like that so you'd be spamming it with meshes
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: I figure on updating once a week, only if the terrain changed significantly.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Will need to diff height maps.
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: Frankly, this is mostly for SL, with its huge mainland. OS tends to be more small and medium sized estates. But I will support OS.
[11:52 AM] Joe Magarac: Anyway, thanks. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm just proposing a way to handle creation of them without any impact for the grid side, which already has enough garbage collecting in the database and assets
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you again next week.
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost the top of the hour. Any last minute item for today?
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just wanted to mention, the HTTP kill-request Ive been reporting, the dotnet logging doesn;t help. I'll need to use a proxy server to catch it
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It happened again with log level 6, but logged nothing
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Interesting
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would have bet money that it would log at least something
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nope nothing
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's telling though, it must be something happening at higher levels of establishing connection then
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: region log happens already at high level
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Malicious headers or return addresses
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it happens maybe once a week on the average, sometimes 2x a week, sometimes once a month, no regularity
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: no help on lower level protocol issues
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The http server dies but Opensim does not detect. All inbound connections fail after this, but Opensim thinks everything is fine
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So requires manual restart
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: try to get a snap of the data that causes teh issues
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats what I'll try with proxy server
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wait so it doesn't crash the application, just hangs the http server?
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: correct
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and then when I shut down OS, when it gets to the troubled thread, shutdown just hangs
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: First thing that comes to mind there would be a looping redirect of some sort
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *shrugs*
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll see if I can capture something
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Setup a honeypot webserver on the same port and log everything for a week
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well its the OS HTTP server
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dotnet
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: nginx or haproxy if you still wanna get to your grid, access log should have the connections so if you then notice it failing you can correlate
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, with aproxy server I can correlate with timestamp
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a big deal as it only happens every week to two
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats all I had today
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well to find why and fix would be nice
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see lots of random traffic that I cannot even really work out where it comes from, but it's usually either bots probing for open things or seemingly spurious bits floating around
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Definitely an annoying problem to track down.
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even on local standalone I see my AV spring up saying it blocked some connection
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting! Must dash *waves*
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Alternative would be adding some log output directly in code to capture things better
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Combined with an external script to test every few minutes if http is still alive
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Have a good weekend and week.See you next Tuesday.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves and grins
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the external script is something Im planning tp add, it will send me an email when down
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: it may be a deep dotnet issue.. no idea
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suspect may need some things like max redirect or similar safeguards added somewhere
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Question is where...
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the error message itself might give clues
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can send you on IRC
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: cy anext week or before..
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go too
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, try to capture the IP address as well, poke me on discord when you get something, I have a few probe tools of my own
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok sounds good
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays gathering before everyone leaves. :)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves and poofs
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: There. That makes it official.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-07-22

2025-07-22T19:20:56Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello [11:03 AM] Ja..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:00 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello
[11:03 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: hi
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:03 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hi :
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: welcome
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: what news do you bring ?
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No news is good news? ;)
[11:05 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we're being attacked by a band of dinos
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh it is only one
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The new viewers sucks
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone seems to be on vacation. I don't see any signs of code changes this past week.
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: and he is kinda blind, missed us
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That dino didn't used to come through the building.
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The code monkeys got high on bananas
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: (/me takes note: buy more bananas )
[11:08 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm still getting a sporadic HTTP connection that kills the dotnet HTTP server. Set my logging to level 6 last week but it hasn't happened again so far. Will report if I fond out anything new.
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok, ty
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I even get that with local standalone into my network from some random IPs, the internet is full of robots and viruses as of late
[11:10 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me grins
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The queryable metaverse has crested over 100000 regions and 63000 residents from 166 grids I have data for
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That's isn't a large number of residents for that many grids.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is no deduplication so it may even be less people
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A more accurate datapoint would be the download numbers of Firestorm and other viewers, but we don't have that data
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did some housekeeping on mantis the other day, but still a bunch of tickets to examine
[11:18 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Vincent.
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I sent some reminders to FS regarding the script syntax thing and the stupid timezone nonsense, but so far no commits to address those things, so will just continue waiting
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Digging into that code not really high up on my list of things I'd want to do
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The summer hole has a lot of people just chillin :)
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure we have that much to talk about today. Any upcoming events we should mention?
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Not that I can think of..we start planning the OpenSimulator Community Conference in August and open the Call for Proposals in September - October
[11:26 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Everyone is welcome to share grid, community, research, business, entertainment, and creativity topics of interest
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks *smiles*
[11:27 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hard to believe we aren't far off from the start of August.
[11:27 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know...time flies *grins*
[11:28 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wishing you all a lovely week... summer here
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was hoping to share some updates on my attempts fixing some of the diva wifi nonsense, but have yet to hear back from the person that wanted to test those things, maybe next week... or month
[11:32 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: testng account creation using diva wifi is not that arduous. Are you using a different interface and system for it?
[11:32 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Vincent. Let us know when you have any more news on that front.
[11:32 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me pokes the bear gently and grins
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Lyr
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: what dino got a bear friend here?
[11:33 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just couldn't be bothered setting it up locally, I just rewrote some parts and threw the code at them to test, waiting to hear if it even compiles xD
[11:33 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: For those reading the minutes, Kayaker's Dino is a Core Dev testing favorite
[11:33 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah ok, gotcha
[11:34 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *smiles*
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I know I have WiFi installed. Not sure if I have the Diva WiFi installed
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: not exactly that kind of wifi
[11:35 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: easy to tell. Ours had the words divia wifi on the icon when we use it to generate accounts for classes and customize them
[11:35 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, just what it was called on our interface
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I thought it stood for "Web Interface For Idiots"
[11:36 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe and a ray of sunshine appears *grins*
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I may have it installed but haven't used it in some time.
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately the only other web interface that looked decent seems to have vanished, Kubwa nuked pretty much all his stuff it seems
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are still some grids using it though
[11:39 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I wonder why he removed
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, which one is that? I don't recall hearing of another one. How long ago did it disappear?
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say maybe this year or last year maybe, I didn't track that any closer. It looked decent enough at least and most that used it also had their grids setup properly so it was a good indicator of that
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kubwa wrote it. I recall at one point he was selling a license for it as well, but then I saw it was just available for download before just vanishing entirely
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure how good the code in it is, but I would think anyone building something to replace wifi wouldn't make the same mistakes
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It might have wound up in an archive somewhere.
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I already tried wayback, but couldn't find anything resembling a repo or download
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tempted to write him an email or ask one of the grids still using it
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There aren't that many options out there. Most of them either don't work or make a mess of the backend
[11:45 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:46 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I played around a bit with wifi (not the Diva one). That code is a bit of a mess.
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Turning theory into code 1 to 1 is sometimes not the best idea, especially if the theory is pretty esoteric
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of the things that have exploded over the years the git blame returns the same few names
[11:49 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: This just made me think of some other project(s). Haven't heard anything much about some of the other viewer alternative projects that were using a new code base. I think there was one using Unity(?).
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Crystal or whatever it was
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think there are at least 2, Joe's sharpview viewer, and one other dev was here recently with another
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not ujnity though
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavins works on dayturn
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: gavin
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Joe's uses Vulkan which is way cool, but more work
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last update on their patreon says Jan 17th, seemingly had some mesh stuff implemented at that point, CrystalFrostViewer is what it is called
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavins work doesn't use Unit, IIRC.
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: neither does joe viewer
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure of that unity viewer even did support opensim
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://github.com/JennaScvl/CrystalFrost-Public Apparently open source now, at least in part
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: There was one that used Unity that got as far as rendering a static scene.
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's that one
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: it does mention opensim wel open sim :)
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: On a separate topic, I was reading in Discord ZenDrako's comment about an undocumented scripting option using "x = expr ? true : false;" I can use that. Is it safe to assume support for that will remain?
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that in Y
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes apparently
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of the xmr specific things have been left in there
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There used to be more documentation out there, but that has vanished when the domain it was on expired
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I am not sure if that was part of it
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ewll not much gain on using that
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: fewer lines or programming
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: of*
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: even c# that just ends up on a normal if
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess only oc cpp it that do jumpless code on special cases
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For compatibility or public things would stick to plain LSL as best as possible, for everything else you can happily go nuts
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: and on some cpus that have conditional instrutions on moce etc
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. on move...
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wonder if SL lsl supports it
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc not
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: and that is pretty dead
[12:00 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting. *smiles* Must dash
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: they are moving to their lua version
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't give them any ideas they might come up with their own shitty version
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: smiles and waves to Lyr
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: lyr :)
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some things in there that are definitely less cpu heavy, but those dark arts are best left alone
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: well i dont remember if Y has that
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: if it did ans was safe, i would had add it when i added the other options like case
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Evidently it compiles that
[12:06 PM] Object: Script running
[12:06 PM] Object: yes
[12:06 PM] Object: no
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Appears to work properly as well
[12:07 PM] Object: Script running
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: nice
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But yeah is just more syntax sugar ultimately being just if else blocks much like switch case
[12:08 PM] Object: Script running 1
[12:08 PM] Object: Script running 0
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recall there were a few such things that carried over from xmr, but not all of that is or was documented
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap i left some there
[12:10 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The other thing it does is the context-aware variables that somehow work even though they probably shouldn't
[12:10 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Another reason to go digging in to the web archive to see of the hold docs can be found that we could use.
[12:10 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wayback machine?
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah
[12:11 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: treasure trove
[12:11 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was gonna put that on the wiki mirror as to not pollute the main one
[12:12 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problem is that only has the page not the source so would need to rewrite all the markdown and I just... well I'm lazy
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: just use <pre> </pre>
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeap it is there and always active
[12:13 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean // <condexp> ? <trueexp> : <falseexp> )
[12:14 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: going to play with it this week
[12:15 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the sugar gets so confusing in C# lately
[12:16 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel that is a old construct even from c
[12:16 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you go code blind enough you might write it as literal true false bool xD
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:18 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me hears crickets
[12:19 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins
[12:20 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-07-15

2025-07-15T19:01:02Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: Well this last w..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: Well this last week we had the sad news about the Death of Mal Burns
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to ask about the statue on the other side of the bar. It took me a moment but I take it that it is a memorial for Mal Burns who recently passed.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We are very sad at his loss.
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Here is a link to his facebook memories page
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://www.facebook.com/groups/friendsofmal/
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: everyone is welcome
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is a nice work by Cherry Manga that does ilustrate soem of Mal's activities
[11:05 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thirza said in Sunday's Inworld Review that they will plan a party celebrating his life this Fall
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: He thought the world of you and your hard work here in the Core Developer group
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Very nice work by Cherry Manga indeed. Nice memorial for Mal.
[11:06 AM] Joe Magarac: Good.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Lyr for the link.
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Adam Frisby reached out
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and sent his condolences as did Philip Rosedale and others who Mal worked with over the years
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: He will be missed
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Back to you - and thank you for inspiring us.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: well he leave a void hard to fill
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across Mal over in SL many years ago. Didn't talk much with him over those years. I remember him from when I first properly met him. He needed a door script that would need a code to operate it.
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: He will be missed at the OSCC event later this year.
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: They toured his home in Craft and the things he loved. He loved Opensim best
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I met him at the old Dr. Dobbs JOurnal meetings in SL as part of Second Life 2.0 with the Sun microsystems meetings and developer events
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: he was trying to live stream and I was insisting on talking *laughs*
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it was 2007
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and I knew no strangers. Since then, everywhere I went for events or conferences, there was Mal
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:13 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for sharing, Andrew
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Those DDJ meetings would have been interesting to me ifI had known about them then.
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: they were wonderful
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: inspired me to bring my computer science classes into world...62 of them between SL and Opensim
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: learned so much from them
[11:14 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we're all connected
[11:15 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: did you see a new version of firestorm beta was released?
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was told the other day that supposedly LL had a brainfart again and decided to add something that forcefully reduces view distance if the viewer starts dropping framerate to the point it got a lot of testers mad... business as usual I guess
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah seems 78558 is out
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: im on 78266 still
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately still no sign of a timezone fix or remedy for the script syntax issue in sight
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Reducing draw distance if the viewer is dropping frames sounds reasonable.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah maybe, but not by 300%
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Cuga
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That does seem a bit extreme if someones draw distance wasn't that high to start with. Makes more sense for someone using a high value for draw distance.
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr, Hi all
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Cuga.
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have been running with a locked framerate for a while now, because the number itself isn't the problem as long as you can maintain more than 30fps, but the jitter can get so bad that it jumps all over the place which creates fatigue on the eyes
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did propose a dynamic framerate lock based on frame jitter in order to lock it to a framerate the viewer can maintain consistently
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thing is with how bad it has gotten even getting to 30fps in the first place can be a struggle depending on the region contents or even the avatars
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: !'m at only 29.4 fps while just sitting here. My fps would probably drop in a busier area or if I was walking around some busy area.
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah pbr viewers got a bit better, but still heavier than older generation
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly a trend in all games
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: you now need at least 16GB of gpu ram, and a recent core to play unreal etc new titles
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: and a nice power bill at end of month..
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Optimization is so poor even with top of the line hardware it might not even use half of it and still struggle
[11:28 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Dune: Awakening looks fantastic on 10GB GPUs
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The viewer is no different in that respect. Getting full hardware use out of it almost never happens
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: only optimization you have is on nvidia profits :p
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: An m4 mac basically getting the same framerate as a gtx 1080 these days
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: with Mac running in x86 emulation
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: It's getting there. Look at system usage while Firestorm 7.1.13 is running. More CPUs and GPU resources are being used than in older versions.
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I complain about what I feel is system bloat in terms of lots of library dependencies and get told "just get a bigger HD because they are cheap". Seems some people don't feel the need to optimize code because you can always get a faster CPU/system. :P
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Higher memory consumption equals more cpu load, something has to manage all that memory in the end
[11:32 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In some cases adding more system resources might actually drop performance if you look at benchmarking leaderboards the highest scores don't always use the biggest of the biggest parts
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something unrelated. There is a new ticket on mantis regarding object parameters and linking. Stating that linking causes some object parameters to be dropped so unlinking them the objects do not return to their original state. I haven't done any testing on that yet, but looked at the code a bit and the parameters should all be on the part not the object so not sure how linking would be causing this
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspected the hierarchy of sop and sog would be to blame, but doesn't look like that should be the case
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( more about Mal https://hgsafari.blogspot.com/2025/07/remembering-mal-burns.html )
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unless some parts are not properly handled in code and I'm just blind, which is possible
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps it is assigning the parameters of the object to the unlinked parts.
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what kind of parameters?
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9207
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: object sale
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: a reset of such data is kinda expected on link changes
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: when any kind of prim can be promoted to root, it is better those things are on a well defined state
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think the main issue there is that yes the root part should dictate those things, but it can do so without having to overwrite the settings of the parts themselves
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: no we can not
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: we have no idea whare such parts had been
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact in future some of those things may be removed from prims
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: moved to a linkset container, we already have called SceneObjectGroup
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: that one in fact may have a new parent thing
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: to support linkset hierachy
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: and physics joints etc
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: sd, as i said, linkset properties may not survive a change on link
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you misunderstood what I meant. The current way the sale price property is supplied via the scene object group is by pulling from the m_rootpart itself, because sale parameters are stored on the part at the moment, so linking and unlinking should have no effect on them unless something overwrites the parameters for all parts on link or unlink
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So I can follow why the ticket was made as it would seem the current code is designed to already handle this in a way that doesn't change the parameters of individual parts, simply pulling from whatever the root part is so why linking or unlinking changing them is definitely odd
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm aware there are changes on the horizon regarding that
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes i know where they are current stored..
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: and i say again.. those need to be reset to a safe value on link, becaur the history of the new root part is unknown, such information on that is unreliable
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc some part of older code may be not doing that, but should )
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: not even going into implications on permissions etc..
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: what sl does is sl problem
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Linking two objects that are for sale to a new root part that isn't and then unlinking them again, as they say, breaks the sale parameters. Looking at the sog link code I can't see anything that specifically resets those parameters so it must be part of a bigger reset that assumes some defaults and only carries over the safe parts?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh not going to dive on code now
[11:55 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:56 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just under five minutes left in todays gathering. Any last minute items for today?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: just telling that those things may not survive a relink
[11:58 AM] Joe Magarac: Thanks. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour which brings this gathering to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-07-08

2025-07-08T19:05:10Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyonel [11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: machine load is not high [11:03 AM] Lyr.Lob..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyonel
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: machine load is not high
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah it's something network related making it slow, but eh eventually it loads so good enough
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Who knows what kind of malware already got into the poor thing... or should I say melware...
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: well good news.. no new bugs added during last week!
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: If you do a ping it might confirm if there are network issues.
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me grins at Ubit.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did write something earlier today that I might contribute in given it apparently isn't something that can be handled any other way
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A validation function for http requests that gracefully returns whether a connection can even be made from the request parameters
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Currently http request will just fail with an error, which exposes the request address among other things publicly so not ideal for some
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't handle it with try catch either cause it's not an exception as such
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess such thing is slower that actually doing a connection.... but who knows
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I certainly wouldn't recommend doing that every request, but perhaps as a way to first validate whether the parameters work or if the address can be resolved, such stuff mostly
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had an issue with that for some reason DNS reporting a NAT IP for a public machine and since that's blacklisted by the filter it just blew up without a way to handle the error
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Perhaps osHTTPRequest throwing actual exceptions for try catch to handle could be a way to do it also
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The open nature of the errors potentially exposing data or just being annoying as they broadcast to everyone has been a topic over the years
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite a few times have I heard the suggestion to restrict the messages to the script owners
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Fixing the error message sounds like a simpler fix.
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think that has merit, but perhaps estate owner and manager might benefit from knowing about script errors as well
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess error to all is a nice tactic
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: to have scripts fixed
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Either option would be better than the message going to everyone
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well yeah, proper DNS is always a good idea, but there currently is no way to "test" a http request to make sure it doesn't blow up. If it does explode then there is no feedback to the script on what has failed specifically, so you can't really handle it either
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: in that mainland thing
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: No easy way to throw an error that ties it back to a line of code in a script?
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http request only returns null key in certain cases, otherwise just errors and returns nothing basically
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it threw a fatal script exception then try catch would be able to handle that, but it's a custom error function
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said multiple ways of doing it, my first attempt right now is just a validation function returning integers corresponding to failure modes otherwise just returning true. Use case is validating urls, dns or parameters and headers. Possibly could do a oshttprequest throwing actual exceptions for handling via try catch, but that's kind of undocumented behavior and not LSL-like so to speak... not that I care, but yeah
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: you cant add much to httprequest
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: at least nothing liek goes out like dns
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is async for a reason...
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me is back
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to test it still, but if you look at the lsl api code for that all I have right now is just copy of everything that can throw an error and just gave that a return code, not actually doing the request itself, just the checks basically
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc ther ossl things that decided to be sync where ... lets say a mistake.. (
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A sort of --dry-run deal
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: like the notecard nonsense
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: well at least there is some caching on those...
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of notecards. I saw the other day that "persistence ejected" and "persistence visitor" notecards are growing at about 10000 per week on ZetaWorlds. Haven't checked yet what script that is, but not a great rate to see that much new stuff
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of these I suspect are just entries pointing to the same data so not much waste besides the db entries
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Our "friends" from IMA apparently made a parcel dwell log thing as well, going up by about 1500 notecards per week, so much for their expertise I guess
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fear of losing data due to restarts seems to compel some people to save notecards as often as every 5 minutes
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No checks of new data or anything like that either
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff you just need newer TB ssds
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: they may grow on trees... try plant some :p
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to say
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't plant seagate or you'll poison the well
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to prefer Seagate. How times have changed.
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly their volume discounts is why they can get away with less than ideal mtbf rates
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other items for today? Any upcoming events of note?
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh right. I did some tests this week and found some interesting behavior of garbage collection in regards to maptile generation. Changing to Warp3D for the initial tile generation at startup would make memory consumption explode as somehow that memory got pretty stuck, gc wouldn't free it up after the maptile was made. Every new simulator would also just grow in memory usage. Doing normal tiles and only later switching to Warp3D would exhibit and increase in memory as well, but gc would eventually start clearing it all out
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing that daily now and seeing the bumps of that generation going up and down in memory now
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have to do some specific tests if the initial memory used for tile generation is freed at all
[11:41 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there is an outstanding bug report about memory usage by Warp3D.
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well it's bound to be higher and a bit glitchy as it tries to render stuff only to eventually fail
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect part of the memory usage is storing the maptile on scene rather than assets, so I expected more memory usage with that code, just not quite as much and with such odd behavior
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is no bug... it is jsut that
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like it would literally add 25mb per simulator started
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: GC has its own mind abotu memory release
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: well at least it is a bit better than on mono days
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: and warp3d does use tons of memory yeah
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: it full draws a region...
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: so needs to get everything
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really the odd part for me is this weird linear memory increase, it's as if it needs 25mb extra for each dotnet app
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The first simulator using 400mb, next 425, 450 etc. all running empty regions with nothing in it
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff just buy more ram...
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: it may grow on trees also :p
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wonder if starting simulators one after the other without giving them time to settle down might play a part
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't think it's code, it's something in the runtime adding memory per instance for some reason
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Once they all started and had time they show the same memory consumption as expected
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I know that dotnet caches a ton of sys info and whatnot at start of an application so perhaps there is a bug there, have yet to check their issue tracking for anything related
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given it's not idea to rapidly start simulators one after the other anyways unless you have plenty of resources to spare maybe just a quirk though
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't be the first
[11:51 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran one system where I started about 5 regions at a time. No more than that due to the CPU load.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unhooking the maptile generation from the startup process has reduced the load massively since I can just disable that entirely now and generate the maptiles later
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next to the db calls it's the heaviest thing
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff a 14900ks will eat regions per lunch... or breakfeast or dinner... may even eat your wallet!
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or degrade and explode
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: or/and who knows :)
[11:58 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That t-rex doesn't know its place. It used to stay out of the bar.
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: that was before he learned about beer
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks!
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today?
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[11:59 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm noticing it must be summer. A couple of the other regular attendees have been absent for a few weeks.
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well it is winter in australia
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: As there appears to be nothing further for today I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: and other places down there >(
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: True.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-07-01

2025-07-01T21:06:48Z

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew!
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm or it is my crap edge?
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You use edge? Unironically?
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Absolute madlad
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and on purpose
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rawdogging the internet like it's 1998
[11:04 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hahaha
[11:05 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was pointing that out to so,eome yesterday. Nobody has accessed the internet directly since NAT
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh my edge was fast sending me to a odd page
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sounds about right
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits since last week looks like
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: I have nothing today. I'm testing that impostor thing I talked about.
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: Ohh nm it is the page of namecheap
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: "The domain has expired. Is this your domain? Renew now"
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That better be a joke
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess mel forgot to renew it
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It expired today
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: what domain?
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: our opensimulator.org
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: Uh oh.
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm surprised it isn't set for automatic renewal.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cool, she has what like two weeks to renew or the domain enters the open market to be bought by some chinese hackers
[11:16 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: godaddy was a name service known to snap up expired domains.
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, I just looked. You can still renew but not for much longer.
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they have, good luck getting that back
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:20 AM] Joe Magarac: Looks like not much to do here today, so I will leave early. Thanks all.
[11:20 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care, Joe
[11:20 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[11:21 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with our holiday on Friday, many are out on vacation
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: It is Canada Day today.
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have honestly had it with both mel and diva being a detriment to the project and effectively holding things hostage to their incompetence. From not renewing servers and now domains, to writing problematic code and not actually doing anything for the last 3+ years. They should no longer be involved in making decisions or be the ones holding the critical infrastructure hostage. Forgive my directness, but this is utterly unprofessional and disgusting towards the developers and contributors to the project.
[11:22 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: try again, working now
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All registrars send out multiple emails regarding renewal, same with the server itself, to not see them is just plain incompetence
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: not for me
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why is she and diva allowed to hold the project hostage like this. Being at the mercy of whether they remember to pay for things, potentially erasing decades of work. That's messed up
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: My registrar sends out a renewal notice a month before and if I ignored it they automatically put through payment for the next 2 years.
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can pay ten damn years in advance and a .com isn't that expensive
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The server is with hetzner, which allows adding funds to the account so it automatically pays for things instead of having to pay each month manually
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Both mel and diva have not submitted any code in years. The latter wouldn't even fix the recursion issue in wifi, just merging my bandaid that I clearly stated needs code revision
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mel going as far as admitting on irc that she has no idea how to properly configure the most basic anti spam floor measure there is, leaving Ubit to manually ban whatever was flooding the webserver this week
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm sorry to be so open, but this shit really makes me mad. It's disrespectful to Ubit being the sole developer now and all the contributors spending hours and days of their time trying to fix things and further the project
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only to be held back by these two to the point it all runs outdated software now waiting to have an RCE completely nuke everything
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are there even backups of anything critical like wiki and mantis?
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm Updated Date: 2025-07-01T17:51:27Z Creation Date: 2007-07-01T17:46:52Z Registry Expiry Date: 2026-07-01T17:46:52Z
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope there is but I couldn't tell you where they are kept.
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: seems it was updated ??
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: i still get sent to the expired site
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great work mel, now renew it for 9 more years so at least we are safe from your incompetence for that time, hopefully by then someone with a brain can take over
[11:36 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: not me
[11:37 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been working for a few minutes now
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: DNS records can take some time to propogate.
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: this the tmp expire entry should have a low tls... but seems still on my cache
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: can you open it now?
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yep, that's edge
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm on it
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it's open
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: i also did resart the machie
[11:38 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been open since 22 minutes after the hour
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The joys of cached dns records not obeying their renewal times
[11:38 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Welcome to Windows
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on the TTL values that were set.
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Windows ignores them quite often
[11:41 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hence why dynamic dns is so problematic for running a grid on when the dns needs to update to a new IP, but all the caches just don't pull the new info
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TTL is a suggestion, not a requirement unfortunately
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I actually have something to address this week so before I get an aneurysm...
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Are there a lot of DNS being run on servers running Windows?
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if you have another topic of discussion go ahead.
[11:44 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm on Mac. I'm getting namecheap
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wrote about this at length in an article, the short form being apparently a lot of people out there are not enforcing the minimum requirements for avatar names. Names with áccènted characters or names that are only 2 characters long. In the best case you just can't search for those users, worst case is the encoding breaks expecting utf and receiving unicode resulting in the bytes just being placed in IMs and creator uui's
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is some enforcement in the create user routine to prevent entry of HG related chars, but no alphanumeric check
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Similarly many systems, such as again friggn diva wifi, don't enforce that either
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm i see the wrong dns also on google
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not directly breaking things in the sense of data corruption although it technically falls under that criteria
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also no minimum password requirements, not even in length
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As much as that's an issue on the user end, enforcing proper names should definitely be done just to maintain some level of compatibility
[11:47 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, the IP address appears to be wrong at this time (for me). I can't access the machine. The IP resolves to something in bodis.com
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm trying to make some changes to wifi to fix this for anyone that runs that given diva no longer seems to care much for it, but with any other system that directly inserts data into the DB the maintainers of that will need to enforce some standards
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: working now and set to auto renew, Andrew
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Impressive, she found the button for that on her own?
[11:48 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks
[11:48 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: hasn't propagated to here (Canada)
[11:49 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A small regex check for the names and their length should be enough and trivial to implement
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For anyone wishing to read the specifics: https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/opensim-naming-standards
[11:51 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: password complexity check might be an idea. Mine's a common name (nostalgia's sake)
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: i see it "broken" everywhere on nslookup
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean our dns )
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A min length of 12 chars would be a start, but the name problem is frankly much bigger, because the only way to really fix that up is to change the name of the avatar, which has it's own problems
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IMO, it would be good to restrict avatar names to something that can be typed without too much difficulty. The use of accented and special characters is one of the reasons I don't want to see support for display names. How do you talk with someone whose name you can't type in.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You then need to change the creator uui everywhere as well, which is a huge pain
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The serialized IM requires it to be utf8 so when it's given unicode it just dumbs the bytes as you can see in the article
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can't really fix this unless all grids that got bad data are contacted and told what to do to rectify the issue otherwise content might still get shared over HG with bad data in it
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already a massive issue, so every bit that can be done to avoid bad data, especially something simple like this is worth doing in my opinion
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i still see our domain as opensimulator.org. 259 CNAME 77980.bodis.com
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: and bodis, com seems to be dns trader
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm or dns parking service
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways, still very broken
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some untested changes for wifi in my fork of that to fix both that recursion issue and enforce some basic standards for the names and even passwords, don't really have the setup or willingness to test those though
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably should mirror the alphanumeric check for names into core
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While technically underscores and hyphens might be fine, not sure
[12:02 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: definitely not periods
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that's what I'm seeing.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, We can make recommendations to grids but I think it would still be up to them to determine what they would allow in the names of their avatars.
[12:05 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Non-authoritative answer: opensimulator.org canonical name = 77980.bodis.com.
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most that have cusotm web interfaces will need to implement proper names yeah
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just hope they sanitize the supplied names to avoid SQL injection issues.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now past the hour mark. Any thing more regarding names, Vincent?
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope
[12:08 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't SQL injection like a 20-year old issue?
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, It is a widely know issue and web site and DB admins should know how to avoid the problem. Doesn't mean all sites are secured against them. Buffer overflow issues in code have been known for decades yet they often get found up in new code.
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Vincent.
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before we go our separate ways until this time next week?
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some discussions re: domain name and servers will need to take place. I hope the name server info gets updated soon to point to the OS server.
[12:15 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-06-24

2025-06-24T19:16:59Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:05 AM] Ubi..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was delayed by a couple of household chores and a cat.
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I currently have one standing on my lap.
[11:06 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:06 AM] Ubit Umarov: bye a scanner.. mien is sleeping on mine
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc that did nto work with fiusa.. she did want lap also :)
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: well.. code changes.. yes.. there where some
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have stuff piled on top of my scanner. No room for a cat. :)
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: the pimmesher.dll used on map, beening almost like Dalhias github where not visible
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: so i decided to merge that into our fork of libopenmetaverse
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: then made several changes like changing its Coord adn Quat to libomv Vector3 and quaternion
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: of them made several "cosmetic" changes
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: that also extended to decoder of sl mesh asset that is on another part of libomv
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: them updated CSJ2K for the very old 0.9.x to very modern 3.0
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: to findout that most changes are pure useless
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact broken
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh?
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: so removed a lot of that garbage and appled bac fixes from lkalif anf hurlima
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: hurliman
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc changed even more
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: tried to make the use of k2k discard level to work..
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see you had fun
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: completly broken on that
[11:13 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but now everything works?
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: of then went to break warp3d map
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: making use of discard levels
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: so we do not decode a 1024 tex to then scale down to 256px
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: now it is only decoded to 256px directly
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I should run some tests how performance changed on that on some of the heavy regions I have
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is one of the few advantages og jpeg2000
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: of made changes on sculptmaps ( part of that primmesher
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: sculpts with alpha where not showing on map
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: if you look to map, you can now see those ugly pink steps south of us
[11:17 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like sculpted trees you mean?
[11:18 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:18 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: many did work.. but soem creators add alpha to hide the map
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: and that was not working
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: moslty bc we use Bitmap so scale now
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: so.. that cleared all RGB also :)
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i made CSJ"K to also skip alpha channel on demand
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sounds like more memory
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: csj2k even
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it returns a 24bpprgb bitmap for those
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: i plan to totally remove bitmap from sculpts
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact from the all map generator
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: except convertion to png and similar
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but not today :)
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: for nwo csj2k does return bitmap
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: i removed the crap new broken format they added
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can merge that along with the map rendering changes I still have to contribute
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might as well break it all at once :)
[11:23 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that was it, mostly :)
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: That was a lot for one week.
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No wonder it was so warm, Ubit overheated :)
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ANy other news for today?
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not from me. been very busy RL the last 14 days
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I know what you mean, Gavin. I have a work project that needs to be done asap. It has taken a lot of my time. Almost done with it so I'll have time to get back to other things soon.
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: assuming cat lets you
[11:32 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :) yes, there is that.
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In July the rain usually is pissing down the whole month, so time to be indoors
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: rest of year is ice :)
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not were I am
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had snow cover 5 days this winter
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You know the climate is messed up when we had more snow down here, yikes
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the UK?
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Germany
[11:34 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm at the end of a 3 day heat wave. Feels like 43C outside today.
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is normal
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have the Gulf current gracing our coast, so it is very mild for the lattitude
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: inland they have snow
[11:35 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: While logging in to here I saw mention of a new version of 7.1.13 Firestorm. Has anyone tried it yet?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: trum my decide to add tarifs to the golf of america current
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Gulf
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc no idea where that gulf is
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems to be the texture decoding has gotten worse in these versions whenever avatars loading in seeing long frame times, something being looked into though
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: well yeah byt he also likes golf :)
[11:36 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he has it framed in his golden office
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well my code changes have nothing to do with avatars
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well and that is viewer side :)
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc now many may be using 2k textures
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of them
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: oen needs to see your hair well
[11:38 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or the gemstone on your ring
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one very blingy pixel
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: yr hair should be 2k alpha only tex
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like the fiber mesh beard I made once with tens of thousands of strands textured each with 2k textures
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lags so much your head can barely move, hehe
[11:42 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: /me smiles
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: on those j2k changes ofc i did look to our openjpeg
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: that should be faster..
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ofc needs to be compiled on every target platform
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: and the code is unreadable :)
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, has OpenJPEG improved?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: no i mean our fork of it
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: like try to make use id discard level on it also
[11:47 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why is it unreadable?
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: csj2k code not only is C# but also C# that is direct conversion from java
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: var names with 3 letters at most :)
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: and big savings on \n packing a lot of code per line
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: typical old C :)
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: variable names sizes have big impact on performance
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: .. during compilation :P
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Where does the simulator side use discard level in JPEGs?
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: That's mostly a viewer thing.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: i added that use
[11:51 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does if you use tape to store the result of each compiler pass I guess
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: why decode to 1024px when we wat 256 ?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: mostly on map
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: Other than scuplts, what does the simulator use JPEGs for?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: map
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, right.
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would you say trunk is stable now or still working on adjustments with the new code?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: trunk stable?? since when ??
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: well seems as we chat, it is working
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: we are on it
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg did a release in middle of that.. ofc with a bug on ubode sculpts.. oops
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: was replaced already
[11:56 AM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: /me grins and nods
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel we don't do ll trees on map.. if you asked that gavin.Hird
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does ubODE unmanaged lib need to be rebuilt?
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sort of, but there are other sculpted trees around too still
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: kinda of a pain to add that procedural tree generator
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: no cuga.Rajal
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: changes where on managed code
[11:58 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that I want them, because it would obscure everything else on the map
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess not many use them
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: they should be a lot better
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: but ll likes the Mesh $$$
[11:59 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: one tree is 25 UDP bytes to send ( plus textures mostly on viewers native caches )
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: same from grass
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very light weight compared to a mesh tree or even sculpt tree
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: one day he will type after log out :p
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: .. will type bye.. :)
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc viewers do need to render them..
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: generate the meshes etc
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: but vegetation is a important part of many regions
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thank you all for your support! Have a great week!
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thanks, Ubit.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: /me grins
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Lyr.
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be boring without vegetation unless you have a Mars themed region
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Or desert area
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: wel or artic
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or endless snow
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: desrts have oasis
[12:05 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: endless ocean for that sake
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: well impressive the vegetation some games now have
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but they support instantiation
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: hi dino
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out. Have a great week everyone
[12:07 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the rendering load is comparatively lower
[12:07 PM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for me too
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour and as people are leaving I will draw this meeting to a close.
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week if not before :)
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-06-17

2025-06-17T19:03:41Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I'm sort of here. I'm having a late lunch so you can start without ..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I'm sort of here. I'm having a late lunch so you can start without me and I'll return soon.
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: no worries... the cat will eat your lunch
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, devs on vacation enjoying the summer :)
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: you mean melting on summer
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is friggn hot yes
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Fortunately, both cats are currently sleeping so my food would be safe.
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: 40C thins week they say
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: this..
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Something close to that for me too in a couple of days.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Approaching 30 here as well, inside that is, impossible to exist without AC, the servers would melt
[11:03 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: we're having trouble geting to 23C
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: late fiusa once was also sleeping like a angel... when i looked again she was happy draging half a chicken of my lunch almost bigger then her
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: XD
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Typical cat behavior
[11:04 AM] Joe Magarac: Aw.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: I figured out how to do region impostors for OS, if anybody cares,
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Without asset spam I hope
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: Not that many.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:06 AM] Joe Magarac: OS doesn't have a huge mainland, like SL. Biggest cluster of contiguous regions seems to be about 100 on OSGrid. Is that right?
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have 500 connected as a large ocean
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh that depends on the grid
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Equivalent to 13000 normal regions
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: some cluster around lbsa
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: some gris do have "mainland" like areas
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you underestimate the asset spam we already have, adding on to it isn't helpful
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We already store terrain map images in assets for some reason
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:07 AM] Joe Magarac: Why, it's one asset per region.
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi lyr.Lobo
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah same for the terrain images, but it's a new asset every update
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't cleaned automatically
[11:08 AM] Joe Magarac: Are all 500 connected regions the same size?
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 1024x1024m
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, no problem. I have two cases. 1) all regions same size, can have 4x, 16x, 64x impostors.
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: 2) regions differ in sizes, 1x only.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just don't get why you wouldn't just store the impostors locally on the viewer side instead of burdening the server with them. It has the capacity to generate meshes and textures at a much better rate than the poor server CPU would given viewers require a GPU
[11:10 AM] Joe Magarac: Because the viewer has to get the impostors from somewhere.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes, locally, from the hdd
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: what is a lets say 64x impostor ?
[11:11 AM] Joe Magarac: 8 regions x 8 regions, very far away.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: in your concept that is..
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: you merge regions??
[11:11 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, although I have most of this in test.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: The region impostors are currently just terrain - an elevatiom map with a texture.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: No buildings yet.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: But you can see faraway mountains.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: It's mostly fo SL, but I want to support OS too.
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's say the impostors are 1mb and you have 1000 regions, that's 1gb in assets just for that. Each update it may generate a new one due to rounding errors so sends a 1mb asset to the server. Restarts daily that's another 350mb each year
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storage don't grow on trees
[11:13 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm thinking weekly updates.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How would the region unless it kept track of the last impostor it stored somehow
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: ?
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: hwo are you "decimating" the terrain ?
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: The plan is that updating is done by a bot.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: Terrain is reduced by usual mesh reduction.
[11:15 AM] Joe Magarac: Again, thiis is mostly for SL.
[11:15 AM] Joe Magarac: Long distance travel on land isn't a big thing in OS.
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: hwo do you fectch the mesh? go there fetch the heighmap?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: stop telling that...
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: For display, it's a mesh asset and a texture,
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are making a assumption only bades on a s few grids you did visit
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: based
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How about this. I can make you some changes to the http handlers on the grid side so you can use get_region to query regions around the one you are on and get a return for their http address. Then I'll add a http handler that returns the region heightmap and the maptile image. From that you generate a mesh with the maptile applied to it, locally, on the viewer end and store that in local cache folder. That won't get you buildings, but it's a start
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: you can't assume tehre aren't large clusters of regoins on opensim
[11:17 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, some way to get hiight maps would help.
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you only need to put a child agent there :)
[11:17 AM] Joe Magarac: Are there large clusters of regions on opensim?
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is connection :)
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=7380&y=6971&z=2 and https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=6988&y=6954&z=2
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw regions view range is also a opensim setting
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions can be told to tell viewers to connect very far...
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc BUMMM
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mixed sized regions technically in view distance yes, I worry about that each time I see that on the map
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm ll region terrain tesslation is pretty bad
[11:19 AM] Joe Magarac: Do mixed sized regions touching even work in OS?
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: nearby regions terrain shape changes a lot as we walk closer
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back. Catching up...
[11:20 AM] Joe Magarac: The C++ viewers only support one touching region per side.
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from crossings and teleport routing getting funky you can technically put them next to each other, but the viewer will not like it at all
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they do.. as long there is only one per side
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i tols nothing about muxed size
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( wakeup keyboard .. )
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting a single region next to a larger one generally tends to work most of the time, but two vars is just explosions during crossings half the time
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i told nothing about mixed sized
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: no they do not explode
[11:21 AM] Joe Magarac: For impostors, there's no real need to impostor water-only regions.
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: my test region is a 1km region with a 256m next to it
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes that works better, but two different size vars not so much
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: for ages
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crossings often end up at 0,0
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: all works fine
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something in the position calculation gets weird
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: as long as there is only one per side
[11:22 AM] Joe Magarac: I actually support arbitrary touching regions in the current Sharpview but the C++ viewers don't.
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah they dont
[11:23 AM] Joe Magarac: I see places on the OSGrid map where that appears, but I never found those regions live when I went there.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg map is not updated
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyway, I can look into extending the http handlers so you can do get_region_by_position on the public handler as well. Region side something to get_heightmap, the maptile should already be requestable through some handler, forgot which one but its there
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: I know.
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: Vincent, thanks.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: so you may see things not real
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you need specific region cases to test I'll set them up on zw for you to test that's easy enough
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: If there's a place on OSGrid where I can see two regoins alongside anohter region I'd like to go visit it.l
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: there used to be a "mainland" around lbsa area
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc "mailand" is more lag.. so ppl just prefer isolation
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: I saw that on the map but could not get there.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Isolated regions, no problem for impostors - they're not impostored at all.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: You can't see them from far away.
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well my test regions are just 1km north :)
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr 512m ?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: my test regions here
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: on my local grid one is 256m
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See with doing the impostors on viewer end via requesting the region heightmap a user that doesn't want theirs shown can turn that off or leave on if they want to be visible even with empty water between the regions
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It gives privacy control to the region owner
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: how many truis do the impostors have?
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: and uniform x,y sizes? or variable ?
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Won't even try to map anything smaller than 2x2 regions. No need for impostors.
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: How many tris? Right now, about 1024 for terrain.
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: Working on better impstors for urban areas using Open Drone Map.
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: uniform density or varialble?
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: They get mesh reduced like everything else.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Flat regions are really cheap.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: everything else is not a thing on c++ viewers :)
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, right, mesh upload for OS lacks Havok.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: diferent things have dif tessalation ( prior to gpus based tesselation )
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhhh havoc means nothing on t6hat
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: think i told many times that they use hacd mesh tools on that
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: something many others use.. or used
[11:34 AM] Joe Magarac: OK. More to say about mesh reduction in future..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: anf that is on mesh upload automatic LOD
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( or worse convex decomposition for physcis, that mostly is a fail )
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but viewers do more tessaltion...
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: liek on terrain...
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: prims also have lods..
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: all diferent ways..
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: so i asked :)
[11:36 AM] Joe Magarac: If you're into convex decomposition, there's now approximate convex decomposition. Some overlap is allowed, which results in fewer awful cases.
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: this was donbe before GPU based tessaltion
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well convex decomp is other topic, for now just not recomended for opensim
[11:37 AM] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubode does not use convex.. bullet does its own decomposion
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: and physics is unrelated to view
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: SL is moving away from Havok and is looking at options.
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C# has options for at least two other physics engines, at least bindings exist for them, just needs a wrapper in OpenSim code to use them
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Easier said than done
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: Enough from me for today. Thanks.
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess other option is physX
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is kinda nvidia thing
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not clear how open is or will stay
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: bullet seems pretty dead
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: many games endup using own engines
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet stll gettig updates and bumped their rev a year ago
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: some derivatives of cryengine etc
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh only a python nonsense
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: core engine is pretty dead
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is bepuphysics and joltphysics that have bindings for C#
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bepu is actually C# itself
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that is for crap #
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: crap c#
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: not for programs made in proper languages
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Dunno I have not tried either of them to see how they perform, but the demos look okay
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: all demos look ok
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The OpenSim demos I have seen beg to differ xD
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: think unreal used physX now move to own Chaos engine
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Wouldl be cool if SL and OS migrate to same engine
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but unlikely
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity is PhysX
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity ?? lol
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: unity!!
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *smiles*
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ubITY
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me, will be afk a bit ...thank you for the meeting
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: what opensim engine? ppl keep using bullet
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: others ubode
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ODE is even older than bullet ...
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean the engines.. not their use in opensim )
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bullet not being maintained is kinda scary
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: well not really
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: simple physics did change..
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: din't
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: does not go to web.. has no use for certs...
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: no real reason for updates..
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: except possible some new CPU instructions..
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: all very questionable anyways
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks all.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: well we are in the hour also
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: any topic?
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing new here... I do need to go RL
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be all talked out for today and we are at the top of the hour.
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-06-10

2025-06-10T19:14:15Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: /me shakes Ubit aw..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: /me shakes Ubit awake
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm having to type with a cat on my lap.
[11:08 AM] orbert tatham: One thing I have to say about Apple, they aren't afraid to give Micro$haft the finger - I have to say I appreciate that
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While getting the finger from the EU
[11:08 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: is there significant MacOS usage in the Open Simulator community?
[11:09 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you aks me the greed of all American tech companies needs to be curbed
[11:09 AM] orbert tatham: NO argument there
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You sound like nextcloud saying they'll replace teams and office while not even having working backups
[11:10 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hard to quantify exactly Joe, as there are no central stats
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say the spread of mac users client side is higher than the general market share of mac elsewhere
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Server side really linux makes the most sense for most applications unless you are drowning in spare mac machines
[11:11 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just checking the git repo and see there was some activity this week.
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: there was a issue with alpha on prim text
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: the function used to get it in format color4 out of system.drawing color was made only for lludp
[11:14 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I noticed that one. Surprised me that the feature would have an undiscovered issue till now.
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: so it did invert the alpha value to improve changes ofr the zero encoder
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( so sold is 0 )
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: so solid is 0 )
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: happed that later that funtion was also used to get alpha for lsl
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It only showed when you used get to fetch the value out, which not a lot of people do since you usually just set prim text not fetch its parameters
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc giving wrong values
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: that was mantis 9205 btw
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile did change the zeroencoder for that color
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: to speed it up a bit
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: system drawing color is not a fast thing
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: better to just ask for it as integer and then do our own shitts
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: well boring details
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am rather surprised how heavy and complex that color cast is
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nice clean code now though :)
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel our code was not only doign that, as BYTe but also conveting them to floats ( on color4) and the back to bytes
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: bad
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wonder how many more of those things are hiding elsewhere, probably a few
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A problem for another day... or month
[11:21 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: /me nods
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: irritating the amount of code hidden on Color.R
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( relative speaking ofc )
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: one would expect just like return (byte) value >> 16 ;
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: of whatever the shit is
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: but vlaue is a complex all also
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc if we do set color using a predefined name, the value is not stored there
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and another call is needed to get real value
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:25 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds messy
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: well reasons why dynamic textures are a heavy thing..
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well we also have no good reason to store that as system.drawing color.. but whatever
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: c# and dotnet is really a crapy thing..
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: so.. whatever..
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rewrite in server side Swift - will only run on Linux though :-))
[11:28 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still trying to figure out how to track down the crashes in libgdiplus under Linux.
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. that was basicly last week coding.. basicly fix mantis 9205 and cosmetivs
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: looks like Windows too now
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.swift.org
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: swift is still a thing? :)
[11:29 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Linux then Windows? If that was the case that is the opposite to the more common direction.
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: being constantly updated
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatver.. to make a new languague and ecosystem seems is still a nice PHD thesis... so we will keep getting more and more trash
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is
[11:31 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Lots of people thinking they can build a better mousetrap.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc nivia now tells that all that is now dead.. thing now are AI models
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: running on nvidia harsware ofc
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: hardware
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anything to pay for more leather jackets
[11:32 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh that little nvidia guy with his leather jacket?
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: hide our dino.. if he sees it he may want a jacket made of its skin
[11:33 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is the BBQ season....
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Snake leather would fit better with the snake oil they are pushing
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: python leather, cause these poor GPUs have to deal with all the AI research done in python
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( orbet i did answer to mantis 9206 )
[11:37 AM] orbert tatham: (thanks)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we have at least 2 groudp modules and that was on just one :)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: well could had been on shared code, don't remember
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeha seems was on common code
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: got improvements on that regions impostors idea joe?
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Back.
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Joe
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, progress on region impostors.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Question: if you can drive between two OS regions, do they have to have th same asset server?
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: as long viewers do it right
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewers need to use eash region asset server they get from caps
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: as old ll spec
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The regions are the asset servers, it doesn't hand off via the viewerasset cap. Technically the regions are likely to be connected to the same asset server, but also technically don't need to be
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: regiosn are not necessary assets servers
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. viewers should use what each region cap tells them
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: What happens when a vehicle is driven from one region to another, and a viewer in the new region sees it? Where does it get the inventory?
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: viewer has indpendent connections to each region
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: the child clients
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: But what if you drive far enough that the region seeing it has no connection to the region that rezzed it.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: each connect has all set of caps urls etc
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: as you move around the region connectionsare updated
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't tell me you still want to use assets for these impostors?
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel you arinve to one, that tells viewers what regicons to connect on
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: and what regions to drop
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: Hm. Not understanding this.
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: I know how regions connect and disconnect.
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: so?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: But what happens when you rez something in region A, and drive it to regions, B, C, D, E, and E is too far from A to talk?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: How does E find the asset?
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: The asset isn't known to E.
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean too far to talk?
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean too far to talk?
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lagging
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Out of draw range.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: it must be present on a backend asset service
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Ah.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: that's what I thought.
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( the car object itself is sent on the tps )
[11:50 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Each region has information about the asset servers to use.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: You actually send the asset files between servers?
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: objects are special
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, let me not tie up the meeting. I need to look into this. Thanks.
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: only objects on inventory get a asset ( at opensim )
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: others are region only things
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But again what does that have to do with impostors? Do you still plan to store them on assets?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( that ofc are assets... details )
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: As you drive from region to region you wouldn't notice an issue as the asset data will be in the viewer cache.
[11:53 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rezzed items are in the prims db table yeah?
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well viewers that see it get in view range need the assets... etc
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: thats like to explain 70% of how regions work :)
[11:54 AM] Joe Magarac: But when you get to region E, another user sees it. Where does their viewer get the asset?
[11:54 AM] orbert tatham: If I read it right, they have to go all the way to the backend server
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: think it that viewers should always use the per region caps
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: thing...
[11:55 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, the viewer relies on the cap it is given.
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( in fact opensim has per region assets like the dynamic textures )
[11:55 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if rezzed prims are stored in the prims db table the viewer can fetch if from there if needed
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: those are local to regions
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: So how do assets not local to regions work?
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: Do the sim servers copy them to each other?
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they all have a shared backend
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: AH!
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: That's what I thought.
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions work as caches of that
[11:56 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, I can work with that.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: soem grids do like sl CDN
[11:57 AM] Joe Magarac: Just ask the local sim for the asset and let it deal with the details.
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: telling viewers to direct connect to a CDN like assets service
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc local assets will not work
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyways.. regions tell you the URL to use.. to transparent to viewer
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: ..so..
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you still plan to store the impostors on assets then that's unlikely to be ever supported, because of how much spam that would create. That's like maptiles on steroids kinda levels of bad
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: They're just ordinary objects.
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: Only one per region, so not a big deal.
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: on this logic they could be like dyn textures
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: local to respective region
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: I need ot try some stuff. Thanks.
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why do they need to be objects in the first place
[12:00 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any new you would like to share about your viewer project, Gavin?
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: so tehy render from all angles etc
[12:00 PM] orbert tatham: For that matter, you could generate the stuff Joe wants at the same time as the maptiles, couldn't you? That would be region server stuff, but....
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You have the region texture and you can fetch the heightmap for the terrain, that's enough data to construct a crude representation of the region on the fly on the viewer end
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well raycasts with 0.5m resolution NOOOO
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really, I had to deal with quite a bit of housekeeping the last week including Bitbucket holding your repos ransom and force you to pay to get access to them again
[12:01 PM] orbert tatham: Ok, end of Bitbucket in my book, but then I never use it anyway
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah they are related to maptiles
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, np. This past week I've been tied up on some projects so I know how it goes.
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: and map already loads all the prims and builds meshes for them etc
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: so "something" could be "glued" there
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a couple active repos there which is just too much hassle to move
[12:03 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when I am done with those it is bye, bye Susie
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At most we could add a way for regions to respond with their heightmap directly rather than sending terrain patches, but generating a whole mesh based on raycasts and storing that every time something changes or it's restarted is a massive resource consumption especially because such things are best done on a GPU not a CPU
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: cuga resit plz :)
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: impostors are not just terrain
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: they have prims also
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ??
[12:03 PM] orbert tatham: Ok, guys, gotta run - see you all next week
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: ( i was seeing you stuck walking cuga )
[12:04 PM] orbert tatham: As was I
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No of course not, but terrain and texture would be a start. At the distances involved unless it's a skyscraper it would be hard to see anyways and the most complex they are the more viewer performance is impacted
[12:04 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:04 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, orbert. see you next week.
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: (ahh. I didn't see. But when I stood up I was walkinmg.. weird)
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sorry late.. busy time or year for me
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: of*
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Did I miss anything?" lol
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: No worries, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: anhh we did not spoke abotu apple silicon crashes :)
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok (phew)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: You missed me talking about typing while I had a cat on my lap. She was treating me like a Tootsie Pop. Lick, lick, lick, lick, bite. ;)
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: opensim still works on yours?
[12:06 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least on Apple Silicon the CPU crash very fast when it does
[12:06 PM] Ubit Umarov: Andrew don't remember me :(
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: My production region is on an Intel Mac. But I have a silicon Mac for testing
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: my surviving cat does not like to be on lap etc
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, sorry about that.
[12:07 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: whats making it crash? (besides stupid sqlite)?
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: there on top of printer/scanner
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, did you have anything you wanted to talk about before we wrap up for today?
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go gentlemen
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: well opensim crashes for kent still
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing. Just checking in. making sure sthere isnt some new thing with Silicon Mascs LOL
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya next week gavin.Hird
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what doesn't crash for kent?
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Kent reaps what he sows
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:08 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you all next week
[12:08 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: he needs to just use mySQL
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. tc. See you next week.
[12:09 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Kent is a troll. I don't take him seriously.
[12:10 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok any other issue?
[12:11 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to ask the same question. :)
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: ah hhow is avatar rendering on yr viewer joe?
[12:11 PM] Ubit Umarov: well guess is a nice topic for next week :)
[12:12 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a plan.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I'll wrap up today meeting.
[12:13 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Joe I'm looking forward to the day when I can test a Mac version of your viewer.
[12:13 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-06-03

2025-06-03T19:04:13Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [10:54] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: welcome back [10:54] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: we all did.. osgrid decid..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[10:54] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: welcome back
[10:54] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: we all did.. osgrid decided to delete all assets and inventories
[10:54] Joe Magarac: I'm working on infinite draw distance for Second Life. See https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/impostor.html
[10:55] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: outch.. is that a good idea?
[10:55] Joe Magarac: Is this something worth supporting for OpenSim?
[10:55] Joe Magarac: It's a trick with impostors.
[10:55] Vincent Sylvester: Where do the impostors come from?
[10:55] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: even so... infinity is a big thig
[10:55] Joe Magarac: Right now, the world map.
[10:56] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: a kind of fog wold be a better idea :)
[10:56] Joe Magarac: I'm getting help from Eric Mondrian in SL who has built mesh 3D models of all of SL mainland.
[10:56] Joe Magarac: Just terrain, no objects.
[10:56] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ie the opositice.. limit to 512m or so :)
[10:57] Vincent Sylvester: Yeah not sure you'll get such models unless you parse the heightmaps
[10:57] Joe Magarac: I'm looking into using Open Drone Map to turn aerial photos into meshes.
[10:57] Joe Magarac: Mondrian is already parsing height maps in bulk.
[10:58] Vincent Sylvester: Not sure the effort is worth it
[10:58] Joe Magarac: Here's what Mondrian has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCdQO179uqM
[10:58] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: don't think big world games show miles.. they jsut fake very well
[10:58] Vincent Sylvester: mainland is somewhat rare here
[10:59] Joe Magarac: Right. So it may not be worth it for OS.
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: and those have predefined and cooked regions ( some procedural )
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well os is like sl
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: even have base functions 4km wide
[10:59] Joe Magarac: The idea is that when you're flying, you can see a distant runway.
[10:59] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80 whispers: functios??? regions!!
[11:00] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002 entered draw distance (24.94 m).
[11:00] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002 entered the region (24.94 m).
[11:00] Joe Magarac: When sailing, you can see distant shores.
[11:00] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002 entered chat range (17.72 m).
[11:00] Vincent Sylvester: If you just want to project the maptiles onto flat squares that would be a start
[11:00] Vincent Sylvester: Parsing heightmaps, could always build a cache somewhere
[11:01] Vincent Sylvester: Could add a cap for sending the raw heightmap data perhaps
[11:01] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ( for now opensim regions are also square )
[11:01] Joe Magarac: What I'm doing is making full objects, with a mesh and texture. Then there is an index file. The index file is used by my viewer to display the impostor objects as off-sim objects.
[11:02] Joe Magarac: I have this in test in Sharpview.
[11:02] Vincent Sylvester: Taking the heightmap to generate a mesh and projecting the maptile over it might not look pretty, but might work
[11:03] Joe Magarac: See the video I linked, which does exactly that.
[11:04] Joe Magarac: I just want a sense of whether this is worth the trouble to implement for varregions. There are a lot more cases.
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: yeah seen the video.. a very ublyt thing hihihi
[11:04] Vincent Sylvester: The maptiles can be pulled from robust, but the heightmaps might be harder to get
[11:05] Joe Magarac: Someone has already done that. I've done it for single regions myself.
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Late lunch today due to a long meeting. :P
[11:06] Joe Magarac: OS has two varregion restrictions: 1) square and 2) only one neighbor per side. Are those going to remain? Sharpview does not currently have either of those restrictions.
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: anyways, opensim is like sp on that, except for var size regions
[11:07] Vincent Sylvester: The second thing isn't a rule, it's just breaking most viewers and teleport routes
[11:07] Vincent Sylvester: People combine difference scale regions against all better judgment all the time
[11:07] Joe Magarac: I've seen that on the OS map but the regions involved are never up.
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: other viewers blow up if 2 is violated
[11:08] orbert tatham: t it
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 1 is in fact everywhere in code, except protocol
[11:08] Joe Magarac: ah.
[11:09] Joe Magarac: I just started from the protocol spec and implemented what seemed possible.
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 2 is just because other viewers store regions terrains in a array len 8
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: you can put 2 regions on aside and all works fine
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: until you tp out
[11:10] Joe Magarac: In the C++ viewers, regions have north, south, east, and west neighbors. It's not general.
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80 whispers: viewer cleans one, sets null on the array entry for that side, then accesses it do delete teh second... BUMM
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: or something like that
[11:11] Vincent Sylvester: You might end up in weird places crossing between different size regions as well
[11:11] Joe Magarac: OK. Well, I get a sense of weak interest, and will proceed accordingly.
[11:12] Vincent Sylvester: My concern is getting the terrain data, because if you want to fetch that dynamically that's processing a lot of data
[11:12] Vincent Sylvester: Also not quite sure there is a way to fetch that data from a region without pretending to be teleporting there
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: or region in view range
[11:13] Joe Magarac: Right. Are there places in OS where neighboring regions use different asset servers?
[11:13] Joe Magarac: With SL, there is only one asset server.
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: each region tells you that
[11:13] Joe Magarac: Right. I know and support that.
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: you must use what region tells you on respective cap
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ( in teory we can still link a HG region on map )
[11:14] Joe Magarac: This impostor thing requires getting mesh and texture assets from some asset server somewhere.
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well i kinda did hide that..
[11:14] Vincent Sylvester: Well then that's not gonna work is it
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: but on original HG we could have a HG region just next to this one
[11:14] Vincent Sylvester: The texture you could get from robust directly as it can provide the maptiles it holds
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ie a region actually on another grid
[11:15] Vincent Sylvester: Mesh you'd have to generate on the fly based on the region heightmap
[11:15] Joe Magarac: There's two parts to this. Impostor generation, which is like map making, and display in the viewer.
[11:15] Joe Magarac: Those are separate problems.
[11:16] Joe Magarac: The problem is, where to store meshes and textures for off-region objects.
[11:16] Vincent Sylvester: In a local file cache
[11:16] Vincent Sylvester: Not on assets, that's silly
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: another thing is that on same grids regions move around :)
[11:17] Joe Magarac: Maybe. Anyway, I'm delaying the meeting.
[11:17] Vincent Sylvester: I'd start with the maptiles, get those from robust and put them on flat squares then we can see about heightmaps and whether regions can provide that independently of a user being there
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: anyways.. guess each region should gen its own impostors
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Joe. I thought it is all part of the meeting.
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: and then viewers should ask them
[11:18] Vincent Sylvester: Shouldn't be hard to add something to return a heightmap on request
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: global thing makes no sense
[11:18] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well a 4km heighmap is a big thing
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: ( so that i really wanted some fog to not send it all :P )
[11:19] Vincent Sylvester: The heightmap data should give you xyz points that you can use for a mesh as points for vertices, then just simplify it somewhat and apply the maptile texture as projection on top
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: duhh
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: heighmap is Z points
[11:20] Vincent Sylvester: Viewer using gpu will have ten times more hardware to do that compared to cpu on server end
[11:21] Vincent Sylvester: zw ocean is a couple hundred connected var regions you can probably test there and I'll implement you a cap for sending the heightmap if it comes to that
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: that is why it is called HEIGHTmap
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: :p
[11:21] Joe Magarac: The way I'm doing this is that each impostor is an in-world object, with one mesh and textures. It's not limited to being a heightmap.
[11:22] Joe Magarac: But it cannot have edit parameters - it's an object in the default state after an upload. No texture rotations, materials, PBR, etc.
[11:22] Vincent Sylvester: Problem with that is dynamic nature of things. If the heightmap changes then the impostor is going to be wrong and has to be remade
[11:22] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: 33,554,432 triangles is not a fun thing to have
[11:22] Joe Magarac: Think of impostor making as being like the world map. it's always running behind. But the terrain doesn't change that fast.
[11:23] Joe Magarac: See the web page I linked for how the impostors are reduced.
[11:24] Joe Magarac: There are impostors at increasing sizes and decreasing resolutoin, like a slippy map.
[11:24] Joe Magarac: 1x1, 4x4, 16x16, 64x64, ...
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: some call that LODs..
[11:24] Joe Magarac: Faraway stuff is very condensed but you can still see it.
[11:25] Joe Magarac: It's a kind of LOD system, yes.
[11:25] Joe Magarac: but that's how I can get 5,000 SL regions down to under 100 impostor objects.
[11:26] Vincent Sylvester: While it would be easier for you to just ask a region for this data, the problem of caching and times remains either way so you might as well generate the stuff locally based on maptile and heightmap rather than having the region provide meshes
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80 whispers: how did you got their heightmaps?
[11:26] Joe Magarac: How do I get hiight maps? LLCastRay.
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: duhhh
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: suicidal
[11:27] Joe Magarac: Eric Mondrian already did it.
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well keep that out of opensim
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: llraycast for that is bad
[11:27] Joe Magarac: He will have a relief map of SL mainland on display.
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: why that when you can get the heightmaps with viewers??
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: gezz
[11:28] Joe Magarac: It's not done often. Think of impostor building as a weekly job.
[11:28] Vincent Sylvester: It's still backwards doing it that way
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: that is insane
[11:28] Vincent Sylvester: Think about it. With OpenSim you have everything you need. Robust can give you maptiles for grid coordinates and regions can supply their entire heightmap already
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: well keep that use of llraycast to sl only
[11:29] Joe Magarac: The reason to do it that way is that I want to also overfly each region and take about 50-100 pictures, then feed those into Open Drone Map.
[11:29] Joe Magarac: Open Drone Map will generate a Google Earth type 3d model.
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: lag their regions :P
[11:29] Joe Magarac: Anyway, I'll have more to say after all this is working for SL. It's in test now.
[11:30] orbert tatham: I would guess that llCastRay is quite expensive in CPU terms
[11:30] Vincent Sylvester: That's great for them, but realistically if you want impostors with decent enough detail in OpenSim the best option would be taking maptile and heightmap and doing some math to generate them and store them local to the viewer in a file cache
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: and when there are ll functions that give terrain height
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: bahhh
[11:30] Vincent Sylvester: Similarly to object cache
[11:31] Joe Magarac: With Open Drone Map, you can get the sides of buildings and can go under bridges.
[11:31] Joe Magarac: It's really good.
[11:31] Vincent Sylvester: For static terrain and land that might work, but OpenSim rarely has something this static and assuming that is a bad time either way
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: bahh when some ppl have trouble to just see a simple region, ppl came up with nonsense lag generators like that
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: whatever
[11:32] Vincent Sylvester: More of a gimmick that part, impostors themselves can work, but not relying on such static data
[11:32] Joe Magarac: Most of the OS regions I visit dont' change that fast.
[11:32] Joe Magarac: Anyway, enough for now.
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: wel lets us know how things do
[11:33] Joe Magarac: BRB
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: just not llraycast :p
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: :p
[11:33] Vincent Sylvester: That just means you can assume longer times for a cache, but assuming how regions behave when users are involved is a bad time
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: wel abotu last week code changes.. none
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: i was just looking for my cat last days...
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: she died sunday
[11:34] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: =(
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I did notice as I check for changes by the start of the meeting.
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry to hear that, Ubit.
[11:35] Vincent Sylvester: My condolences
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: soem may had chat with here at IRC
[11:35] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: so sorry to hear... :('
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: with her..
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: How old was your cat?
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org:80: would be 16 next month
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Not a bad age for a cat.
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Always tough to lose a family member.
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice looking animal. My cats have all been gray or black and white.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: she was a great opensim dev supporter
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: With no code changes to talk about today what is our next topic of discussion?
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Quick side question, if anyone knows of any regions that have recreations of manufacturing plants or industrial CNC machines please let me know.
[11:44] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: sympathies fpr your cat
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ty
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, try and ignore those people who hear the news and then respond with the question, "(when) are you going to get another one?". :P
[11:45] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: I've got some stuff on aviworlds
[11:46] orbert tatham: Well put, Andrew
[11:46] orbert tatham: Those people obviously have no idea how much pain they inflict
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Those people have probably never had a pet.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: i still have her sister
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: also having some bad time now
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: How old is the sister?
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: 16 next month :)
[11:49] orbert tatham: Any more topics? I need to do a few things.....
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: np if you have to leave, orbert. We are close to the top of the hour so there won't be much more before we wrap for today.
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: At some point have to look at the opensim libs and libomv things and actually document and automate them, but I am not all that motivated to slog through that at the moment
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Automate them in what sense?
[11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: In that I click build and it makes me a binary
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: i have libomv auto build on my repo
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: What libs need to be build, where the source is and how to build them is not documented, that should change
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: there is a time limit on that at github
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: for free acounts
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Unless you host the build server yourself, which you can
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I did that last week setting up a windows host to run mainline builds from
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeah but im not doing that for now
[11:55] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well you need a machine for it that is... well
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: no poin
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: and not big point on building those
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: they end up on main opensim bin
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and in many cases with a main code change to match
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well not constantly, but in the interest of transparency and for future reference documenting them should be done at some point
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Especially in regards to the altered versions
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and teh libs.. that is a BIG mess
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: very diferent things
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: inc native code
[11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah, but kinda necessary in the long run
[11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Remember, documentation is good, it's annoying, but good
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: again.. the respective bins will endup on main opensim repo
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Good documentation is even better. :)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: wel im talking about auto comple
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: compile
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember github sort of pushing their CI/CD features when they were rolled out. Didn't now there was any time limit on their use.
[11:59] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah no not in the sense to build the libs each time, but in case they need another change to adjust to changes in the third-party software like last time with mysql, having the source and build process documented so the necessary binaries can be made is good practice
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Shipping altered binaries without documentation of their source or how they were created is... not ideal
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: But that's going to be a long process either way I agree
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, tc Joe.
[12:00] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 waves
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute items for today?
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I take that as a no since I don't see signs of anyone in the middle of typing a reply.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: That will wrap up the gathering for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-05-27

2025-05-27T19:08:48Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins [11:02] Gavin.Hird @..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right - it might have been because of that
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go shopping. With the loss of inventory I'm all gray.
[11:03] orbert tatham: You are a female ruth to me
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same for me
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: naked too
[11:03] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes and wearing the Emperor's New Clothes
[11:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: rofl
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: all a matter of perspective *winks*
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: We all knew the clearing of the osgrid inventory was not a good idea. :P
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Amen
[11:06] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ^_^
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: one could think that osgrid does like naked ruths :p
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: but nahh they jsut did a mess on inventory cleanup
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a very long time since I needed to edit my appearance. I don't remember how to change shape.
[11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Where have I heard that before
[11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Oh right...
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there should be a radio button to change to male if nothing else in the shape aditor.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: you may need to copy body parts from opensim lib to body parts folder
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: the may hadd them pointing to the lib and those are readonly
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: also the pants and shirt
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: new shirt1 time lol
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: welp there he goes
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: rip
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there should be an emergency outfit box here
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well meanwhile, abotu last week code changes..
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: wel there where a few little ones, today
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: a bug fix on mesh upload.. there since 2017...
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: and also a fix on yengine hasscript() function, also not used much
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: That didn't work. Just got me logged out while trying to upload a file as part of resetting my appearance. :(
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll deal with it some other day/
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Was that mesh bug a problem with the double sided normals of that model?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Good :)
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: ( whatever double side normals are
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: When you have a triangle that is visible from both sides as normally it is only visible from one side
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: they never happened
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: until a mess they added on pbr
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that should never happen
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: not sure how it works on that
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: anyway unrelated to mesh
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well you can define a triangle to be double sided or not, by default they are all single sided with one visible and one invisible side, much like you can't see a prim from the inside
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what was the consequence of the mesh upload bug?
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: there are no double normals.. just a "inside" and a "outside" defien by the normal
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The model I gave you have double sided normals for the fins of the dart
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: did crash on same cases
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: it had a bad index... that actually did work in most case.. puff
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It goes through the instances aka prims and then tried to access the mesh information for each, but the actual sides of the mesh only had 4 entries instead of 7 for all the prims so the array lookup exploded
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The upload failed and got the uploader stuck as the lock didn't release
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: yeha it was using a bad index
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, that has happened
[11:18] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: If anybody needs clothes I've got a huge mall on aviworlds. just search for Freebie in maps
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I found it odd because the model has a mix of double and single sided normals. The body of the dart has single sided normals, but the fins are double sided, and there are 4 of those with the body being 3 parts. That's how it got to 7, but with the dart body being single sided 3 "faces" could be missing
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That at least seems logical it might assume a model either be completely single side or double side
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though it should adhere to collada allowing for mixing
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So doesn't quite add up
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: normal viewers did not render "inside" faces
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and in fact should not do it
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: but whatever
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most likely mesh imported from other sources nad massged for opensim
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I noticed after forcing the upload that the dart body had inside faces despite the original model not having them so it changed the model during upload
[11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It could be viewer forcing this though
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: all meshes had to have full triangles for arounf a object
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for example in DAZ Studio plants that only have one sided mesh render the foliage on both sides of it
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe Unity does the same
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: yeha some engines do it to save on number of triangles
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: similar issue with physics
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: bullet and sl do both sides, ubode only does "outside"
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It's an optimization technique to reduce tris count so it's a valid thing, just seems mixed models were not correctly interpreted by the viewer. Then again it is a model from a catalog, should always load it in blender and export it again to force some standard onto it as collada otherwise too open a standard not to include nonsense
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: In any case the change should prevent it exploding :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: anyways was basicly a typo
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: not just about double side faces
[11:25] orbert tatham: Where did Firestorm get their mesh import code?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ll
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: collada gives code to read dae
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: they use it
[11:26] orbert tatham: I guess I have to ask why they screw it up so bad, then?
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well the group that made collada
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: err guess fs uses mostly ll code
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Everything LL touches eventually gets some idiotic caveats added to it
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: same for pbr
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because LL used models made in Maya as reference and had to run it trough an adobe converter and that introduced deviations for dae standard
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i mean glft
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: that is from same group, and they also provide some code to read/write gltf
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: LL brain surgery through the rear end
[11:28] orbert tatham: Yeah, it does always seem to come back to that
[11:28] orbert tatham: I keep wanting to get us away from them
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS use basically LL code for pure mesh import, but for their backup thingy / export they have used more of their own code
[11:29] orbert tatham: ubit, you wrote ubODE off of the mesh standards, yes?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: hmm?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: well ubODE is a improvement over old ODE module
[11:30] orbert tatham: Right
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: like all, it uses own internal mesh representation
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: like all.. engines..
[11:30] orbert tatham: Bullet uses a different mesh representation than ubODE
[11:31] orbert tatham: and apparently LL and Bullet are pretty similar
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: standards are about "transport" and storage
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: internal formats are about performance
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: in case of viewers, about how to feed opengl :)
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: on physics. how to to collisions fast..
[11:33] orbert tatham: I guess I should go back and try to import some models I made earlier to see if they will import into my ubODE sims now
[11:34] orbert tatham: Anyway, thank you for the information
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: wel ubode import is only diferent from main one to proper suport the physics types NONE, PRIM and CONVEX, broken on bullet
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ( ind is only about physics part ofc )
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and import from a LL mesh format
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: totally unrelated with collafa.. fbx etc
[11:36] orbert tatham: Mine were all collada straight out of Blender
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ( and viewers have a few of mesh formats
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: collada dies on viewers..
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: viewers jsut read collada ( like could read any other format ) and convert it to a ll mesh format
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: colada is irrelevant for regions.. it is only a viewer side thing
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: collada
[11:40] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: pita collada heh
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pina
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess ll only decided to import meshes from DAE, because back then in was the only free format
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: fbx was not free to use.. etc
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are talking 2003 or earlier here
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: guess still 2007
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the avatar mesh must have been imported much earlier
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: you had to pay a lic to use fbx
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: what mesh avatar?
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: the one on viewers is still another ll mesh format
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the original avatar is a mesh
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: no idea abt its origins
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: neither have I
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: guess a adaptation of some avatars program of the time
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It was either collada or obj, both are very open so a mess either way
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: anyways as i said that mesh format is unrelated to inworld mesh format
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also support morph targets (the original shape sliders)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: it has more features like morphs etc
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yes :)
[11:47] orbert tatham: https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_History
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well that is wrong
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: avatar are not made out of primitves
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe it was licensed from Poser or something like that
[11:49] orbert tatham: That is semi official, too
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and it is wrong
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it says there were made of prims very early on
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: before the mesh based
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: wel at least no clear..
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: not
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Probably mean the prim sculptures that used to be quite common back in the day, I still have an avatar like that
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: because ruth has its own mesh system as we said
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: way before the hacks of "inworld" mesh avatars
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: a big ll mistake
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will get an L for that
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: they should instead improved the system avatar modle
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: totally agree
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Especially since most mesh bodies I have seen have less transforms than the system avatar
[11:52] orbert tatham: From what I read into it, the system avatar was a parameterized mesh built into the viewer, where the "other" mesh was sownloaded
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the original uv map for backward compatibility in addition to a new uv map
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: it is not "was" it is "IS"
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and it included the wearbles etc etc
[11:53] orbert tatham: I stand corrected
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that they did recover a bit with BOM
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Only thing that really changed with the system avatar model were additional bones and a small fix to some misaligned triangles early on
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeah bento added some more bones etc
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is when they should have updated the avatar mesh
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: but never did bother on improving those base meshes
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They should have just added a V2 version to be selectable in appearance
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the system avatar could move the fingers, which is unpossible on the original avatar mesh
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ppl from the rute ?? tried to improve the system meshs
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ada? was on several of thios meetings and we talked abotu that
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: kaykaer is on that team also
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Do you mean the Ruth2.0 thing? That never really went anywhere
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Was just a mesh body
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: oops that
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well they also tried to improve the System meshes shipped with viewers
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: not that easy
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: bc the importers we have for that format are not that good
[12:00] orbert tatham: There's a shock
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They never added the necessary transforms and weights to that so it's really no different than the other mesh bodies
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and thing try to make collada, and collada does not support all the needed features of thsoe meshes
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ..think..
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would also have had to support the morph targets in the shape editor
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: guess a direct converter into blender format was needed
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: collada is just bad
[12:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like I said, have yet to see mesh body that can transform based on the shape data, they usually lack definition so changing the shape often doesn't do anything
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: you are talking abotu the hacks ll now calls mesh avatars
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: using "inworld" mesh asset format
[12:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Wearing a second skin... where have I heard that before
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: we where talking about the internal system avatar mesh system
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: a lot more complex
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and better..
[12:04] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: yeah
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: just ll made it with resolution etc for the early 2000's
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: and never did improve it. went instead to that hacks path
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: bc those hacks make the market work.. and give a lto of $$
[12:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Improve the internal mesh.. nah.. build a market on third party mesh that all looks the same
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe we should hit Trump there is potential for tariffs there
[12:06] orbert tatham: Please, HIT him hard
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if he can put tariffs on an uninhabited penguin island, why not an LL island??
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit.
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items before we wrap for today?
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week, if not before :)
[12:07] orbert tatham: Thanks for the information, UBit
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: pff old news ;)
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, I will call this meeting to a close. This time I'll remember to turn off the chat logger. :)
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>

Chat log from the meeting on 2025-05-20

2025-05-20T19:11:22Z

Tampa: Created page with "<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;"> [11:09] Ubit Umarov: welcome :) [11:10] Ubit Umarov: gaving was asking if vicent notices that KDU is better than ope..."

<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap;word-wrap: break-word;">
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: welcome :)
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: gaving was asking if vicent notices that KDU is better than openjpeg on viewers
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: curious minds needs to know :-)
[11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: kdu runs slightly faster due to lower memory footprint, but actually loads images a bit slower
[11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: openjpeg is like instantly everything has textures where kdu displays gray for a bit longer
[11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Overall though the kdu claims of 10x performance are bullshit
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: between kdu and the screen sits the LL renderer
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: ( possilbe andrew is finding he has a new naked ruth avatar here at brave new osgrid..)
[11:13] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm seeing that graphics freeze issue on 7.x release also
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The lower memory footprint of kdu is useful in cases with limited system memory, it only adds like 4fps from what I can tell in the same scene at the same position
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but are teh frames better??
[11:14] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: jp2000 decode should have minimal impact on fps
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I wound up at the other place. I knew I would forget we are back here. I had to look up the name for the region again as I no longer had a landmark for here.
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:15] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello, everyone! I'm celebrating my birthday today. Sorry to be late, just popped out of class. *grins*
[11:15] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: HB, Lyr!
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: Oh no... another birthday..
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: oops
[11:15] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 laughs
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: Happy Birthday
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Congrats!
[11:15] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you *grins*
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy Birthday, Lyr.
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean can you see any visible differences between KDU and openjpeg? – To me it looks like KDU produce slightly better lighting in a scne
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: scene
[11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The big reason for openjpeg is that dynamic textures, say a 1024x1024 sized texture will load much faster so you do not need to add a delay for the viewer to finish display, because for some reason that's buggered now too. KDU seems to apply some different colors to some shaders which is visible in the water mostly
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not sure how that even comes about frankly, but that's the big thing I noticed
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: had idea that main diference is that KDU costs $$ :)
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be a cloud for todays meeting. The grid seems to know what I had been wearing but I have no inventory.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is the main, main difference
[11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: For how much it costs its pretty shit at dealing with the dynamic textures though, but I guess doesn't show itself much at SL seeing as they don't have those
[11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: ....yet
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: well about opensim code changes..
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: think we had one.. a one char change!!
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is at least 8 bits that changed
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: a bad space was removed from a string in code!!
[11:22] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: cosmetics on asset connector too
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: that was causing viewers allow/exclude feature to fail
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: at robust gatekeeper
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: question: do we transmit any benefits cap at all?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the benefits code is actually pointless in the opensim viewer
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: basicly...
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: maybe some grids would like to have UltraPremiumPlusHyper
[11:27] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: lol
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: but not going there
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or subscription to use Hypergrid
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Don't give em ideas
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: Ohh now that is a nice idea..
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: pay opensim
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( my paypal ofc )
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you left opensim to Adobe there would be a forest of subscriptions to enable features
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: ohh wait for windows 12
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really
[11:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The more you buy... wait no that's hardware
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: the more you pay, the less you get :p
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there was this joke "ask not what Vista can do for you. Ask what you can buy for Vista"
[11:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Viewer performance basically has to improve now that there isn't really a high end option for graphics cards anymore, so that'll be interesting to see
[11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Through the testing I been doing the last couple days I did notice a strange relation between cache size and framerate
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Bewildering that a large cache will result in slower rendering... somehow... yeah I don't know either why that is related
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Digging into performance unearthing the weirdest things
[11:33] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: would have expected the opposite
[11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Right? Me too
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: hmm in old days we could have a ferrari from matchbox.. Sadly we can't have a matchbox 5090
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember when people were experimenting with setting the limit on network traffic rates and higher wasn't always better.
[11:34] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yay the dino!
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: OpenSim limits the max rate to about 4000kbit anyways, you cannot set it higher than that even if the viewer requests it
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because the viewer spends too much time handling incoming trafic and not rendering frames
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I hear a noise and thought someone had an open mic. I see now that it was the dinosaur passing by behind me.
[11:35] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FS Prefs only go to 3000k
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah that's what seems to be responsible for the freezes as well given they occur loading objects from an adjacent region
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: You can set a higher number in the debug settings, but it gets clamped on the server end
[11:36] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ahh ok
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: SL appears to allow like 20000 for some reason
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not sure if they clamp it
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they do
[11:36] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah I see that freeze when I come in range of a neighboring sim
[11:36] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in SL
[11:37] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: The dinosaur survived the restart of OSGrid!
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: guess he only lives on this region cache
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Viewer code seems to lack some safety to not overload itself with processing object data and just does everything it gets in a single frame
[11:37] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Dino didn't lose any skin or body parts
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I may dig into the code on the server end to see if the outgoing data can be throttled, but ultimately seems more a viewer bug
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably because the overhead of such code will slow down frame rate
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah
[11:38] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: slow it down slower than a freeze
[11:39] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It lacks the "only do x amount of objects per frame" type break in the processing to prevent itself from locking up
[11:39] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Course finding the suspect code for that is not easy
[11:39] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it probably doesn't have a mechanism to store the unprocessed objects in a buffer for the next frame
[11:39] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in order to limit object processing and not freeze
[11:40] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It may well be code that takes incoming network data and sticks it into memory as well, which is harder to throttle in the first place
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a bit increase in memory use right there
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: big*
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus you have to traverse it to make sure the objects have not come out of view since the last frame
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: mb you are just filling up yr gpu .. memory
[11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Throttles are transmitted as a set of individual throttles per type, so perhaps just need to adjust that ratio to slow object rate down a lot. I did try changing the burst rate at the server end to reduce the amount it would send at once, but that didn't seem to do anything
[11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: When it comes to such network stuff I prefer to hide under a rock
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:42] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont think the burden to manage that should be at the server, should be viewerr]
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess udp has little to do with that
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: region will stop sending if there are 2 many unack packets also
[11:43] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: VFiwere should receice, and have a mechanism to throttoe or defer processing/rendering
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: that extra control was the only way to stop having lost terrain patchs
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The viewer sends sort of ratios for the data types and then the server takes those and does math to figure out the actual data rate. Suppose that was implemented to spec, so yeah the viewer can send different numbers to get different data rates back
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: bahh old old newa
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: news
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The question remains as to why that has gotten so bad as it is a somewhat recent development that people report freezes like that in the first place
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: and some viewers try to be clever on that to be "faster"
[11:45] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah that too, FS code not exactly to spec
[11:45] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000 whispers: I don't remember seeing it on 6.x. Maybe it is an
[11:45] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Fast FPS" thing
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they seem to pile on loads of code for crash prevention, but all that code has overhead in terms of processing frames
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: i didn't notice that.. but i don't go out much things days
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I suspect the extra layer for the materials crap has negatively impacted it, but that alone shouldn't be this massive given it's a native capability of the renderer to display that stuff
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: hmm ( note to self checp if car still starts )
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how is it native?
[11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: heh yeah
[11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A mess
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: render engine is for pbr now
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: new light model etc etc etc
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does not mean it is particularly native
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the renderer is a hybrid mess that also can render pbr
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Technically it is meant to be faster because the format is closer to what the renderer has to output anyways, but in practice that's a different story
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The fallback is not helping it yeah
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: think now it is more try to render pbr and emulates BP
[11:49] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Would have to remove BP to perhaps get the speed back up, but that would be taking a nuke to everything, people would riot
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: abyways that is talk for FS support channels, not here
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: specialy if it is a sl issue
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: btw how is dayturn?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: moving forward
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it logs in to opensim, renders world and all that good stuff, byut HB needs a bit more work and same with avatar baking, but getting there
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to apply opensim features coded 13 years ago to the new codebase is not trival at points but getting there
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Impressive progress considering the time investment of reading LL code, facepalming, considering doom of society and then fixing the mess :)
[11:53] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: dinosaur's back
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so maybe next week I'll be here on version 3
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that thing is running wild in there
[11:54] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: ouch I just get stepped on
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:55] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: My Kitely me is not the owner of that dino, so I can't control it now...
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can derender it
[11:56] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: but it''s our mascot
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: It used to stay out on the sand.
[11:57] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: It has code to avoid parcel boundaries.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: no parcels here but that EEP test one :)
[11:58] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: So this afternoon I have t explain to my elderly mother "I was in a technical meeting but got stepped on by a dinosaur"
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour already. Any other last minute items for today?
[12:00] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Then back to chores in RL for me!
[12:00] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Me too!
[12:01] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: party time and reading tech manuals
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Back to waiting for Trump's next crazy announcement
[12:01] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Buy all!
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Alrighty then. I'll call this meeting to a close for today.
[12:01] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves Have a great week everybody
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ok have fun, cya next week
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
</pre>