OpenSimulator - User contributions [en]

Grid List/Heritage Key

2010-04-13T12:44:48Z

MW:

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<table border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0">
<tr>
<td>Name:</td>
<td>Heritage Key</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Website:</td>
<td>www.heritage-key.com</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Login URI:</td>
<td></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Wiki/Forum:</td>
<td> </td>
<tr>
<td>Approx # Regions</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Approx # Users</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Logins/day</td>
<td>50</td>
</tr>
</table>

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Heritage-Key/76852681169?ref=share
 
Twitter:@HeritageKey
 
Youtube : http://heritage-key.com/video
 

'''Heritage Key Virtual''' uses '''OpenSim''' to provide a unique educational experience.
 
We invite you to travel across time and place to unlock the wonders of the Ancient World.
Everyone has a dream of visiting Ancient World Sites and having their own adventures. Explore the Ancient World -- hidden under today's modern life, via media-rich online content and online virtually. Unlock the Wonders. Heritage Key Invites you to Discover and Share. You can start your online expeditions now. Get your keyboard and mouse ready for action! Read articles and blogs. Search the directory of ancient world sites and museums. View photos. Watch videos. Make an avatar and explore our virtual exhibitions. Please also take the opportunity to share your experiences by posting comments and adding your photos to our Heritage Key Virtual Flickr Group

 

'''Existing places to visit''' :
 

'''King Tut Virtual''' : 
Zoom in on King Tut's greatest treasures and explore the Valley of the Kings at the time when Carter made the world's greatest archaeological discovery ever: the Tomb of Tutankhamun. Experience life by the Nile in Ancient Egypt, gather clues to have a look at what the Egyptians envisioned the afterlife to be and dig up your own artefacts. All this is possible in King Tut Virtual.
 
Part of King Tut Virtual: 
The Valley of the Kings - Experience the discovery of King Tut's Tomb. 
The Cosmic Gallery - Zoom In on Tutankhamun's amazing treasures. 
Amarna - Find out about life by the Nile under the reign of Akhenaten. 
Balloon Ride - A Hot Air Balloon ride over the Valley of the Kings. 
Treasures - View the wonders discovered in Tutankhamun's burial chamber up close. 

'''Stonehenge Virtual''' : 
Discover the history of Stonehenge in our 3D, online experience. Meet the famous Amesbury Archer, help move and raise the Sarsen Stone and attend an ancient burial ritual. Test your druid skills, decipher the secret of the stones and celebrate at the Solstice festival.
 
Stonehenge 2400 BC - Help move the stones into place using special carts. 
Stonehenge 2300 BC - Meet the Amesbury Archer and help raise the Sarsen Stone. 
Stonehenge 1500 BC - Attend an ancient Druid burial ritual and find the secret signs in the stones. 
Stonehenge Modern day - Meet modern day Druids and take part in a Solstice festival. 
Stonehenge Durrington Settlement 1500 BC - Test your ability to be an ancient Druid for the day at the Durrington Settlement.

Grid List/Heritage Key

2010-04-13T12:44:46Z

MW:

2009-12-10T16:18:24Z

MW:

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There are several physics engines available for use in OpenSim. Currently, they are "basicphysics", "OpenDynamicsEngine" & "BulletX" (modified version). The plugin "basicphysics" is the default and can be seen in the <tt>OpenSim.ini</tt> file.

* When starting OpenSim in Windows, one can add <tt>-physics=OpenDynamicsEngine</tt> to run the OpenDynamicsEngine (ODE) instead of basicphysics, or change the corresponding parameter in <tt>OpenSim.ini.</tt>. [In Linux you must run the included shell script, <tt>opensim-ode.sh</tt> or type <tt>ulimit -s 262144</tt> before running mono OpenSim.exe. '''The ulimit -s 262144 in Linux protects you against stack collisions and corrupted memory when there are a large amount of physical objects roaming around your Simulator.''']

* When starting OpenSim in either Windows or Linux, one can add <tt>-physics=modified_BulletX</tt> to run a modified version of the BulletX Physics Engine aka ''Modified BulletX''. See the next [[PhysicsEngines#Modified BulletX|information]] about details and progress.

To conclude, basicphysics & OpenDynamicsEngine both are appropriate for Linux and in addition. Modified BulletX should be fine for Windows and Linux (not the original BulletX).

As of 10/9/07, ODE has received the bulk of testing. It supports basic collision with box-shaped primitives as well as box prims with box-shaped hollows. Bullet supports box-shaped prims and appears stable; there has been little testing yet, and it is known to have issues with friction (you skate around on non-level surfaces).

== Compiling ODE from source (Linux) ==
If you want to compile the OpenDynamicsEngine (ODE) by yourself, get the latest OpenSim libraries source code (Ver. 0.9 as of Oct '07) from the SVN: http://opensimulator.org/svn/opensim-lib & switch to the ode(trunk\unmanaged\OpenDynamicsEngine2) directory

svn co http://opensimulator.org/svn/opensim-libs/trunk opensim-libs
cd opensim-libs/unmanaged/OpenDynamicsEngine/

Ensure that the file ../ou/bootstrap is executable and then bootstrap the build process as follows:

It might be necessary to make the bootstrap file executable(if it is not) with this optional next step:

$ cd ou
$ chmod +x bootstrap

Now get ready and run autogen

$ sh autogen.sh

and compile it as shown below. Depending on how permissions are setup, you may need to sudo for the make install step:

./configure --enable-shared --disable-demos --disable-asserts
make
make install
cp /usr/local/lib/libode.so /my/opensim/production/dir

If you run into issues after doing this try the debug library by using the following line;

./configure --enable-shared --disable-demos

(I used to suggest --with-trimesh=gimpact, but no longer. As of ODE 0.9, Opcode is the preferred and best-supported collision library)

This should create a <tt>libode.a</tt> and <tt>lidode.so</tt> file in the <tt>src/ode</tt> subdirectory. Copy these two files to the opensim <tt>bin</tt> directory (after having backed up the original files there). [er, I don't think the .a file is necessary to put in bin!]

Try to play a bit with the avatar-settings in OpenSim.ini, if the avatar has it's feet stick in the terrain or if the basic-position is crouching.
These settings seem to work on Linux64:
av_capsule_radius = 0.68
av_capsule_standup_tensor_linux = 1900000
av_density = 90

== Compiling ODE from source (Mac OS X) ==

You can use essentially the same build process on OS X as on Linux,
but there are a couple of minor differences.

First, the <tt>autogen.sh</tt> script tries to automatically determine
the name of the libtoolize binary (which is named glibtoolize on OS
X). To do this, it uses the <tt>which</tt> command under bash, but
the error code returned by <tt>which</tt> is always 0 in bash. If you
see an error message like this:

autogen.sh: line 44: no: command not found

then open autogen.sh in a text editor and change the first
<pre>LIBTOOLIZE=`which libtoolize`</pre> to <pre>LIBTOOLIZE=`which glibtoolize`</pre>
and re-run it.

Also, you must have automake 1.10 or later. You can check your
current version with:

automake --version

You can get version 1.10 from [http://www.macports.org/ MacPorts] or
[http://www.finkproject.org/ fink] if yours is older. Be sure to
place the new binary directories ahead of your system binary
directories in your PATH. You may have to open a new shell for your
changes to take effect.

Then you can follow the Linux instructions to build the library. When it has built, copy the <tt>ode/src/.libs/libode.dylib</tt> file to the OpenSim <tt>bin</tt> directory.

== Compiling ODE from source (Windows) ==

The standard distribution has a build directory, in which you will find subdirs for several Microsoft compilers.

The standard .sln files (at least for VS2005) compile ode.dll such that it depends on at least two Microsoft runtime dll's. This can cause failure and confusion, so do the following:
Right-click on ode in Solution Explorer, and select properties.
under Configuration Properties/General, change "Use of MFC" to read "Use MFC in a Static Library"

Under Configuration Properties/Linker/System. Change Stack Reserve Size to 262144000. Click the OK button then compile as usual.

== ODE Plugin in OpenSim ==
Currently, the ODE Plugin suports collisions Av2Av, Av2Prim and Prim2Prim. Avies and (active)physical prim movement supported.

The currently collision behavior is:
* For avies, a capsule of .2m of radius and a length based on the avatar height and 80Kg of mass
* For prims, like a Box or Sphere with a mass of a Box of = 0.5Kg/l = 0.5Kg/dm3 = 500Kg/m3.

* Prim are separated into ~30m space islands with their own bounding box to speed 'near' calculation.

* friction is reduced on avatar to object/ground collisions when the avatar is moving

=== To-do list (next changes) ===
* Tune all collisions
* Introduce Prim Shape Type to have more than the box shape using the Meshmerizer tri-mesh generator
* Fix bugs
* Physical(active) Linksets
* Vehicles

==== Known bugs ====
* Linkset + Physical/Active are not working: ''Making a linkset physical, leaves the geometries of it's child prim where they are.. even if the root prim moves.''
* Certain distributions of Debian utilize 100% of the CPU while running the ODEPlugin.
* ODE Asserts

==== Recent changes ====
* Implemented Grab and Throw
* Implemented llApplyImpulse in the global frame
* Replaced the 'Avatar Wobble' with an 'Angular Motor' to keep the avatar capsule from toppling. Results in less bouncing and improved stability.
* Linksets are now collidable as long as they are not set Physical(active)

== BulletX Plugin in OpenSim: Modified BulletX ==
BulletX Plugin in OpenSim runs the modified version of BulletX. The original version of BulletX runs under and has code-dependencies with MS.XNA. The orginal BulletX can be found at [http://www.codeplex.com/xnadevru XNADev.ru]. The modified version removes all code dependencies with MS.XNA. On the other hand, it needs another library to work. This library is based on Mono.Xna and it's called MonoCompactMaths. The modified BulletX and the MonoXnaCompactMaths can be found on the svn of OpenSim. Because its code independency of MS.XNA, the modified BulletX should can be run under either MS.Net or Mono and, therefore, either Windows or Linux (obviously you can combine Windows + Mono)

Currently, BulletX Plugin suports collisions Av2Av, Av2Prim and Prim2Prim. Prims and avies movement supported. By the way, collisions needs tunning. The currently collision's behavoir are:
* For avies, like and sphere of 1m of radious and 50Kg of mass
* For prims, like a Box of the prim-size and a mass that it depends of its sizes. The mass it's the mass of Box of water with density = 1Kg/l = 1Kg/dm3 = 1000Kg/m3 (Be water my friend! :D).

=== To-do list (next changes) ===
* Tune collision
* Introduce Prim Shape Type to have more than the box shape.
* More than 1 region in a Sim and then more than 1 sim (grid)
* Fix bugs
==== Known bugs ====
* Icy bug: ''an avatar acts like it is on ice and tends to drift off the edge of the sim after a while''
* Crash on BulletX. You will find the next message in console sometimes: ''Overflow in AABB, object removed from simulation If you can reproduce this, please email bugs@continuousphysics.com Please include above information, your Platform, version of OS. Thanks.''
* <del>Rotation doesn't seem to work</del> 

== POS Plugin in OpenSim ==
POS is Physics Of Simplicity. It is BasicPhysics with collisions.

I took out my old wiki stuff because it was just plain wrong. The algorithm which is implemented in POS does not model the avatar as a sphere; rather, it models it as a rectilinear solid, same as the prims. However, collision detection is always done in the rotational frame of the prim, so depending on which prim you check against, the avatar is actually oriented differently.

=== To-do list (next changes) ===
* TODO

==== Known bugs ====
* TODO

== Physics Testing Videos ==

===ODE===
* ODE 25 Physical Spheres on Windows Server 2008 Dual Pentium 3 1000mhz with 1 gb of ram. [01/24/2008 rev.3170]
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/windows2008_ODE_2.mov
YouTube > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGyhne2llRI
* 360 Physical Prims (Sim Crashes) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_ODE_physics_test_01.mov
Stage6 > http://stage6.divx.com/user/3dlibre/video/1847652/
YouTube > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0olsWlTc0A
* 180 Physical Prims (Sim Does Not Crash) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_ODE_physics_test_02.mov
Stage6 > http://stage6.divx.com/user/3dlibre/video/1847715/
YouTube > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lR_2H7VODU
* 90 Physical Prims (Sim Does Not Crash) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
Quicktime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_ODE_physics_test_03.mov
Stage6 > http://stage6.divx.com/user/3dlibre/video/1847731/
YouTube > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9ulYO8I26Q

===BulletX===
* 360 Physical Prims (Sim Crashes) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_BulletX_physics_test_01.mov
Stage6 > http://stage6.divx.com/user/3dlibre/video/1847745/
* 180 Physical Prims (Sim Crashes) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_BulletX_physics_test_02.mov
* 90 Physical Prims (Sim Crashes) [11/08/2007 rev.2308] 
QuickTime > http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/opensim_BulletX_physics_test_03.mov

===Second Life Havok 1===
* 360 Physical Prims [11/08/2007] 
http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/SecondLife_physics_test_01.mov

===Second Life Havok 4===
* 360 Physical Prims [11/08/2007] 
http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/SecondLifeBetaHavok_physics_test_01.mov
* 1000 Physical Prims [11/09/2007] 
http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/SecondLifeBetaHavok_physics_test_02.mov
* 1000 Physical Prims [11/09/2007] 
http://www.nebadonizumi.com/vid/opensim/SecondLifeBetaHavok_physics_test_03.mov
[[Category:Development]]

2009-12-10T15:19:54Z

MW: Reverted edits by MW (Talk) to last version by Ideia Boa

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[10:45] Stefan Andersson: By the way; if anybody wants to explore the code, writing a simple 'module' 
[10:45] Stefan Andersson: that logs all chat in a region to file would be a fun little project 
[10:45] Dalien1 Talbot: indeed 
[10:45] Tleiades Hax: and usefull for the meetings as well 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: MW introduced the module architecture so that people could write things more or less stand-alone. 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: shouldn't we better revive the IRC gateway module ? 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: that one was quite functional.. 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: Personally, I'm surprised that we haven't had more people setting up custom sims and writing modules. 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: Why not have both? 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: true. 
[10:47] Stefan Andersson: Everybody seems to want to hax core funcs. 
[10:47] Tleiades Hax: the infrastructure for dynamically loading modules isn't in place yet 
[10:47] Stefan Andersson: Which is fine; but I think the big breakthru comes the day people start pushing code from their own web sites. 
[10:48] Stefan Andersson: Tlei, that's why I want people to get cracking at it. ;) 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: I think two things need to change, maybe three 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: we need a way do dynamically register plugins 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: we need to fill in the wiki page on modules 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: and as a possible last thing, but almost unrelated 
[10:49] Stefan Andersson: That should be easy enough; a pick-up directory, or a part of the config. 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: I think we should isolate the plugin pattern we use into an interface 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: I think both 
[10:49] Stefan Andersson: Well, yes; the plug-ins should have a well-defined facade into the system 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: that should coincide with the script engine facade 
[10:50] Tleiades Hax: scan a subdirectory at run time, and look in the config file 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: As I said, simple enough, I think. 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: We already have dir-scanners and config readers.. 
[10:50] Tleiades Hax: yes, we have all the component parts 
[10:51] Tleiades Hax: should be a piece of cake to do 
[10:51] Stefan Andersson: Actually, we have so many of them they should be refactored into generic plug-in handlers 
[10:52] Tleiades Hax: true 
[10:52] Tleiades Hax: which is why I think we should define an IPlugin interface 
[10:56] Stefan Andersson: Definitively 
[10:56] Stefan Andersson: Actually, if we could get all our plug-ins into the same structure, so that the different plugin managers could just fetch a list of plug-ins implementing a certain type; that'd be like ace++ 
[10:57] Neas Bade: welcome all 
[10:57] Neas Bade: we actually have a pretty reasonable turn out already 
[10:57] Dalien1 Talbot: all of the plugins - like ? 
[10:58] Stefan Andersson: So that the IPlugin should have something like IPlugin.Register( IRegisterPluginFacade facade ) 
[10:58] Dalien1 Talbot: ah something like meta-interface then ? 
[10:58] Stefan Andersson: and IRegisterPluginFacade would have something like RegisterPlugin<TPlugin>( TPlugin instance ) 
[10:58] Neas Bade: man, it will be nice when we have chains and can sit :) 
[10:59] Stefan Andersson: That would mean 'Register me as handling calls to interface TPlugin' 
[10:59] Neas Bade: will someone volunteer to upload transcript of the office hours? 
[11:00] Stefan Andersson: Then any Plugin could ask IPluginFacade for GetHandler<TPlugin>() 
[11:00] Tleiades Hax: if I don't crash, I can do it 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: I'll be the backup. 
[11:00] Dalien1 Talbot: I'll also bounce it to the blog as well. 
[11:00] Neas Bade: Tleiades, you have logging turned on? 
[11:00] Stefan Andersson: Hm. GetHandler<TPlugin>( string name ) I guess 
[11:00] Neas Bade: ok, cool 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: is neas==sean? 
[11:00] Neas Bade: yes 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: got it 
[11:00] Neas Bade is Sean Dague 
[11:01] Neas Bade: here and in SL 
[11:01] Michael Wright: seems like this is going to be everyone 
[11:01] Neas Bade: sorry for showing up a little late, dalien / stefan, what did we I wonder into? 
[11:01] Stefan Andersson: Um, anybody up for implementing what I just said? :P 
[11:01] Neas Bade: yes, I agree 
[11:02] Tleiades Hax: hmm. where do I turn on logging? 
[11:02] Stefan Andersson: We were just discussing refining the plug-in handling. 
[11:02] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so, I'm off for a while.... 
[11:02] Neas Bade: stefan: ok 
[11:02] Tleiades Hax: k 
[11:02] Charles Krinkeb: As the host, welcome to Sang. Which I believe to the most stable sim on osgrid. It is checked for functionality every morning, runs on the osgrid server and has not crashed once. 
[11:03] Neas Bade: tleides it is under preferences somewhere 
[11:04] Michael Wright: really need to fix up the time progressing sometime (night comes a bit too suddenly) 
[11:04] Tleiades Hax: think of as being close to equator 
[11:04] Neas Bade: Tleiades posted some suggested agenda on the wiki, which seems like as good a place to start as any. Though prior to that, are there other specific things people would like to talk about? 
[11:04] Neas Bade: MW: heh :) 
[11:05] Neas Bade: one of the things I'd like to throw out there is starting to build a master todo list on the wiki, as I think that will help letting people know where they can contribute bits 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: yes, agreed 
[11:06] Neas Bade: man, everyone's quiet :) 
[11:06] Dalien1 Talbot: i have crashed a couple of times :) 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: I think we should clean up the 0.5 list 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: make a free for all list of features they'd like 
[11:06] Neas Bade: tleiades, I'd like to hear your thoughts on better approaches to the database layer as well 
[11:07] Tleiades Hax: and a list of features we plan for 0.5 
[11:07] Michael Wright: yeah, a todo list is needed (and yeah its kind of the middle of getting my daughter to go to bed right now, hopefully in a bit I'll be able to talk more) 
[11:07] Neas Bade: MW: no worries 
[11:07] Tleiades Hax: I like the list the libsl guys have 
[11:08] Neas Bade: url? 
[11:08] Tleiades Hax: http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Roadmap 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: as for database layer, I think we should consider things in stages 
[11:09] Neas Bade: Ok, I just started a Roadmap page on the wiki 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: right now, focus should be on getting stuf to work 
[11:09] Neas Bade: I'll take notes into it in "Uncategorized" for now and refine from there 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: kind of brute force 
[11:10] Tleiades Hax: inventory is ok for mysql and sdague has sqlite well under control 
[11:11] Michael Wright: the asset system is one area that so needs doing, I have been going to do it for weeks now, but as some of you know, for the last few weeks I've been very busy and just haven't had time 
[11:11] Tleiades Hax: I have written some unit tests for that, and verified both sqlite and mysql 
[11:11] Charles Krinkeb: Is it a correct assumption that inventory database stuff will not affect the sql users and regions table in grid mode? 
[11:11] Neas Bade: tleides, well, I think you correctly pointed out that some of the use of DataSets ends up being problematic for larger data (as we load it all into memory) 
[11:12] Tleiades Hax: I think mysql will be used for the larger grids, and sqlite for the standalone ones 
[11:12] Neas Bade: I'm assuming you are going to take a slightly different approach on the mysql stuff for that? 
[11:12] Tleiades Hax: that is my gut feeling, so no big worries I think 
[11:12] Neas Bade: if you come up with a better pattern, I'll adapt the sqlite code to match that 
[11:13] Tleiades Hax: yes, not quite as elegant as your code, but it won't flood server memory 
[11:13] Neas Bade: yeh, that's fine :) 
[11:13] Neas Bade: performance counts for something ;) 
[11:13] Neas Bade: we can probably pull some patterns out of it and make it both pretty and performant 
[11:14] Neas Bade: I'll admit to being pretty ado.net ignorant when I got started on that code, so learning as I go 
[11:14] Tleiades Hax: IInventoryData implementation in MySql, is a sample, on how I plan to approach to MySQL 
[11:14] Neas Bade: great 
[11:14] Neas Bade: also, those unit tests you have, can you check them into the build tree somewhere sensible? 
[11:15] Neas Bade: it would be really great to start getting tests in place for key function 
[11:15] Tleiades Hax: well, problem with those are, what about programmers who aren't used to working with unit tests 
[11:15] Charles Krinkeb: What sort of tests, neas? 
[11:15] Neas Bade: we beat them with sticks until they like it :) 
[11:15] danxor danx0r: heh 
[11:16] Tleiades Hax: I have written some unitttests, for inventory data 
[11:16] danxor danx0r: looks like yoga class 
[11:16] Neas Bade: :) 
[11:16] Charles Krinkeb: Perhaps tests could go on the wiki with simple step-by-step? 
[11:16] nebadonb izumi: heheh yea 
[11:16] Tleiades Hax: next will be unit tests for assets 
[11:16] Michael Wright: yeah doing unit tests are always good. 
[11:16] danxor danx0r: hi sorry I'm late -- technical glitches 
[11:17] Neas Bade: danxor and I were actually talking about testing earlier, and I was thinking about starting to create a functional test suite by using libsl to create bots and walk them through the environment. It would help with isolating some of the region crossing bugs I think. 
[11:18] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed. plus, with loadtesting as well... 
[11:18] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. 9 avatars, 8 green dots. 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: especially for the database plugins, it is the only way I can think of, which improves the probability of all the plugins working as expected 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: hey, that is a great idea, automated testing of sim functionality 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: I love that concept :-) 
[11:18] danxor danx0r: unit tests, ftw 
[11:18] Dalien1 Talbot: charles: self does not create the green dot :) 
[11:18] Neas Bade: tleiades: agreed 
[11:18] danxor danx0r: so would this be something we could all use on a single machine in stand-alone? 
[11:18] nebadonb izumi: you dont see yourself charles 
[11:19] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, I think so 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: minimap is too small to see individual dots 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: ahh zoom. nv 
[11:19] Tleiades Hax: danxor.. zoom works 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: mind 
[11:19] Neas Bade: at least that would be the goal 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: it's great to finally see what you all look like :-) 
[11:20] Tleiades Hax: lol 
[11:20] Michael Wright: I think charles is right about the map, I see my yellow dot for myself then 7 green dots (but there is 8 other people here) one person isn't getting a dot 
[11:20] Dalien1 Talbot: s/like/alike/ ? :) 
[11:20] Neas Bade: heh :) 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: sort of like that old "Addicted To Love" video 
[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: It builds a sense of community, and that is very good. 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: I see yello + 8 
[11:20] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm indeed me too. 
[11:21] Tleiades Hax: so, should I check the unit tests in? 
[11:21] Neas Bade: yes 
[11:21] Tleiades Hax: roger that 
[11:21] Neas Bade: how do you execute them at the moment? 
[11:21] Neas Bade: is it a manual run, or nunit? 
[11:22] Tleiades Hax: well, I set my unit test module as executable, and run "nunit-gui" 
[11:23] Tleiades Hax: we probably should set up a propper nunit test project 
[11:23] Neas Bade: lets start with what you have and work towards that goal 
[11:23] Tleiades Hax: ok 
[11:24] Tleiades Hax: having my tests in svn will actually help me, I have lost 'em twice already 
[11:24] Tleiades Hax: deleted the project folder, to get a fresh copy of opensim, and forgot to backup the tests 
[11:24] Dalien1 Talbot: given the speed with which the things change, i think it is good to push the stuff in as early as possible (assuming it does not break the build or functionality) 
[11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: even if it is piece by piece 
[11:25] Tleiades Hax: yes, small pieces at a time 
[11:25] Tleiades Hax: but I think some branches in svn would be a good thing 
[11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm then you'd need to maintain more than one 
[11:25] Neas Bade: svn branches are actually a beast to merge 
[11:26] Michael Wright: we used to have branches as generally it just leads to problems 
[11:26] Dalien1 Talbot: i would rather try to keep it contained within one branch 
[11:26] Michael Wright: as= and 
[11:26] Neas Bade: I was thinking of creating a mercurial clone of svn trunk for people that wanted to do local branch changes 
[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: We declare a moratorium on updates from time to time for a few revisions if we need to pursue an idea that breaks the build for the general user. 
[11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: my build system always keeps the latest successful build 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: speaking of svn, I was thinking of creating opensim-libs 
[11:27] Neas Bade: in my experience using a distributed scm like mercurial makes life much easier if you want to do lots of branch stuff 
[11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: but ideally the build should never break 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: and starting down the path of getting a proper 3rd party build 
[11:27] Michael Wright: yeah, having a stable tag branch , that is only updated say once a week or whatever, but we tell everyone (non developers) to stick to that, is fine 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: what's mercurial? sounds like git 
[11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, good point 
[11:28] Charles Krinkeb: I was responding to Dan's comment a day or so ago that demanding the build always works may put the developers in a bind from time to time. 
[11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, like git, but easier to learn to use 
[11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: MW: so that branch would be always re-synced automagically ? or needs manual maintenance ? 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: it'll need a merge every week sounds like 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: or maybe not 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: just replace it with the latest thing 
[11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm that would mean manual maintenance... = pita. 
[11:29] danxor danx0r: hmmm 
[11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: could do simpler imho 
[11:29] Neas Bade: is this discussion on the stable tag, or on mercurial? 
[11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: just declare that the stuff should work on monday morning build or such 
[11:29] Tleiades Hax: stable tag, should be pretty easy to do, I think 
[11:29] danxor danx0r: if testing really works, you could build nightly, test, and update stable if test passes 
[11:30] Neas Bade: we need a few tests before we could believe that :) 
[11:30] danxor danx0r: good way to exercise the unit tests; if they miss something, we'll hear right away from users 
[11:30] Neas Bade: but that does tie nicely into test automation to move the stable branch 
[11:30] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: that's almost what i do on opensim.be, except i do not have the unittests - merely if the compile succeeds then i update with the new binary... 
[11:31] Neas Bade: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap 
[11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Dalien, best to test that the client logs into the new binary to be sure. 
[11:31] Neas Bade: been trying to update that on the fly with things poping into my head 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: ckrinke: indeed. once there are automated tests for that, I will include them. 
[11:32] Tleiades Hax: those automated tests, using libsl would be soooo cool 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: although this boils down a bit to the unit testing 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: i assume that every person that commits the code does test that the code actually works :) 
[11:32] Neas Bade: yes, I think automated tests with libsl will help a lot. I'm going to start digging into that tomorrow 
[11:33] Dalien1 Talbot: there were a couple of glitches - but they are usually caught by the build failures, it seems. 
[11:33] Tleiades Hax: the problem is testing on all platforms 
[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: I believe it is fair to say that code committed denotes responsibility to ensure users on both Linux & Windows have not gone backwards. 
[11:33] Dalien1 Talbot: ideally we should have an autobuild for both linux + windows 
[11:34] Neas Bade: right, well we need some automation there first, then we can see about that 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: so that the windows folks did not have to bother with the linux setup, and vice versa. 
[11:34] Neas Bade: we've got opensimulator.org for the linux side 
[11:34] chill ken: is the stable tag idea due to time between releases being too long? what about doing more minor releases? 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: neas: ah you started to do the builds there as well ? 
[11:34] Neas Bade: no, I haven't 
[11:34] Neas Bade: but we could 
[11:34] danxor danx0r: charles: not sure it's reasonable to expect every commit to include full windows + linux tests 
[11:34] danxor danx0r: unless they are automated 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: ah ok - because http://ruth.opensim.be/build does do nightly build (nightly CET :) 
[11:35] danxor danx0r: I try to use my intuition about how far to test each commit 
[11:35] Neas Bade: yeh, and I think that's fair 
[11:35] Dalien1 Talbot: yeah i think it is a good approach. 
[11:35] Neas Bade: if people are running off svn they need to know there are risks there 
[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: No, but I would suggest it is reasonable that each commit, makes a commitment to ensure the users have moved forward and not backwards. That can be as simple as making sure at least one user compiles and runs on the other platform. 
[11:35] Tleiades Hax: I think almost all, run off svn head 
[11:35] danxor danx0r: that's exactly why there should be a semi-stable branch for the increasing number of 'power users' who compile but don't typically code 
[11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: I do not have the windows environment, and some folks do not have linux. 
[11:36] Neas Bade: well, I'm actually leaning against the stable tag, as it ends up being a crutch for not releasing more often 
[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I would concur with Sean 
[11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: maintaining more than one branch is a pain.. 
[11:36] danxor danx0r: yeah, I think the defacto assumption has been, test n your own machine 
[11:36] Tleiades Hax: I'm leaning towards that point of view too 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: typically if you're not doing something involving build or native libs, you won't break the other platform 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: though I did have an exception where mono didn't run something .NET did 
[11:37] Tleiades Hax: the biggest pain is in the native libs 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: I suppose we could run mono on windows, and say mono is the gold standard for "this build doesn't segfault" 
[11:37] Neas Bade: I think that people are running on svn because the code is moving fast. We can't keep the code moving fast if we require a full regression test on every checkin :) 
[11:37] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: Tleiades -- I want to talk about the lib problem 
[11:38] Neas Bade: yeh, native libs is a beast 
[11:38] Neas Bade: danxor: go for it 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: I think *all* libs, native or managed, that are not par tof standard build should be in a separate project 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: it will have two subfolders, managed & unmanaged 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: and each one has folders for each lib 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: then a top-level script to (eventually) invoke all the makes 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: (though some are VS hand-make only now) 
[11:39] Neas Bade: I like that approach 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: copy the dll's & so's into bin 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: and perhaps create zips -- tho that gets into architecture 
[11:39] Neas Bade: I think it would make sense not to polute bin/ with them though 
[11:39] Neas Bade: it would be nice to have a seperate lib/ 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: ie, someone somewhere needs to build them for each target supported 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: neas (sdague?) -- dunno how mono .net deals with looking for them 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: but keep in mind stuff like ode.net.dll needs to find the unmanged ode.dll 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: AND, sometimes ode.dll will need to find other native stuff 
[11:40] Tleiades Hax: mono is actually easier than .net I think 
[11:40] Neas Bade: you just need to add paths in the prebuild.xml 
[11:40] Neas Bade: or nant 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: well I don't mind polluting bin, if it's not in subversion 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: ok I didn't explain right -- 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: you can choose to build libs, _OR_ you just donwload a zip file 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: which someone built for your platform 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: and that zips into bin, or ./lib if you prefer 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: no binaries in subversion! 
[11:41] Neas Bade: well, what you are really talking about is opensim-libs releases 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: yes, right 
[11:41] Neas Bade: yep 
[11:42] Neas Bade: I'm all for that 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: but it's not going to be on the same schedule as opensim commits 
[11:42] Tleiades Hax: I like that too 
[11:42] Neas Bade: opensim-libs is an svn repo 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: yup 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: we can start with just reasonable file organization 
[11:42] Neas Bade: we can make it an svn external to the main opensim so you can have a single checkout to get the all if you are buliding from source 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: and the big makefile, all hail the make can come later 
[11:42] Neas Bade: well, probably we want nant instead of make 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: because for now, you gotsta do all the README's and INSTALL.txt 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: for each liv 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: lib 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: but at least, these will be the proper versions, 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: with maybe an opensim README about compile opts 
[11:43] Neas Bade: ok, danxor, you got the ball for that one? 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: so you can walk through it and end up at aknown state 
[11:43] Dalien1 Talbot: hm how do we "freeze" the version of the foreign lib ? 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: yeah (sigh) 
[11:43] Neas Bade: to do the new repo 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: I'll start it 
[11:43] Dalien1 Talbot: e.g. libsl 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: what else besides ode do I need to build? 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: libsl, 
[11:44] Neas Bade: libsl 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: is taht C++? 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: if we just have it "pull the latest" 
[11:44] Neas Bade: it's libopenjpeg is the .so 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: did we get the version thing right now? 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: dalien -- "pull the latest" is a problem -- 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: then the changes in the libsl would break the opensim-libs 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: precisely 
[11:44] Neas Bade: dalien, you can set a version number on an svn external IIRC 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: that's why we need copies of everything -- so we can say 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: we know this works with opensim 
[11:44] Neas Bade: sort of like a tag 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: you want to pull unstable and take a bet, go ahead 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: or we svn co -r 
[11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: particular revision number 
[11:45] Neas Bade: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch07s03.html 
[11:45] Tleiades Hax: we are caught inbetween chairs on libsl 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: dalien -- well whoever maintains it needs to document what they do 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: there may be patches or subtle make changes 
[11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: cos we'd ideally then need the universal approach to all of the libs 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: for instance, I modified ODE's build to statically link those stupid msvc dll's 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: but at least it's there in svn, in a known state 
[11:46] Dalien1 Talbot: right... so could do something like gentoo & co - download the version that is needed, unpack, possibly patch, build ? 
[11:46] Tleiades Hax: msvc dll dependencies are always a pain 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: if someone does somethhing funky, yeah you just svn -r opensim-libs 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: nice 
[11:46] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so back. 
[11:46] Neas Bade: yeh, getting there would be great 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: tl -- turns out you can just compile statically but no one does 
[11:46] Stefan Andersson: Wow, quite the turnout. And no sim crashes. 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: ok I take the ball on this, with my copiouis free time 
[11:47] Tleiades Hax: yes, we do that at my workplace 
[11:47] Stefan Andersson waves YAY! 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: I'd love to have another commit-level dev on physics... 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: no crash because we all stand still with our arms out 
[11:47] Neas Bade: speaking of physics, how is that all going? 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: and act like it's IRC 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: physics update: got a major bug with terrain 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: strange one, hunting it down 
[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Yep, you'all made a very stable sim server. 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: then some tweaks on bouncinetss 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: bounciness 
[11:48] paulie Femto: Howdy hi! 
[11:48] Neas Bade: hi paulie 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: darok made some bullet improvements but it needs real work 
[11:48] Tleiades Hax: hi paulie 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: Gerard did that awesome hollow patch, but it's one of 20+ prim types 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: all of which can be in combination -- so that's a ton of work 
[11:48] Neas Bade: are there specific things others can do to help out? 
[11:49] danxor danx0r: I'd like to pull GErard in if possible 
[11:49] danxor danx0r: well... 
[11:50] Tleiades Hax: at some point, work on assets will overlap with the prim types 
[11:50] Neas Bade: right, that's a good point tleiades 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: help: prim types 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: yes 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: it's some wicked stuff 
[11:51] danxor danx0r: common code to manage it would be great. Not sure who needs to know other than physics + client tho 
[11:51] danxor danx0r: scripts? 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: scripts will need it 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: to change prims based on scripts 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: and those changes needs to be persisted into the asset store 
[11:52] Tleiades Hax: I scanned the ll functions today, and all of those functions are not implemented 
[11:52] Dalien1 Talbot: MW/lbsa: would like to spend 3-4 minutes with you later to discuss the TP stuff...(not to interrupt the physics thread now) 
[11:53] Charles Krinkeb: TL. Only about a third are implemented. 
[11:53] Neas Bade: right, I think actually getting assets somewhat more functional is probably required first 
[11:53] Tleiades Hax: yes, I noticed, and for pretty good reasons too 
[11:53] Neas Bade: which I'm very excited tleiades is digging into so much :) 
[11:53] Tleiades Hax: I plan on working on that, for a little while 
[11:53] Michael Wright: Dalien, okay but think for me at least, its going to have to be tomorrow, been a long day and need to spend some time resting 
[11:53] danxor danx0r: other physics issues: 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: in my opinion, ODE will not cut it without it being forked and worked on 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: it's just too damn unstable numerically 
[11:54] Dalien1 Talbot: ok.. actually i think i will need to discuss with Tleiades too :-) 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: it throws exceptions that need to be handled in C++ 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: ppl have recommended OGre and other things 
[11:54] paulie Femto: Hows Bullet comin along? 
[11:54] Neas Bade: once we get assets working to a reasonable amount, there are a few other folks that I work with that are happy to grind out LSL functions 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: you sort of need a 'game engine' on top of physics, I've been ad-hacking it 
[11:55] danxor danx0r: bullet would need similar investment 
[11:55] danxor danx0r: but at least it's C# 
[11:55] paulie Femto: BulletX is more managed from the start, yeah. 
[11:55] Neas Bade: danxor, can you explain the difference between what we physics and game engine? 
[11:55] Neas Bade: in terms of what opensim needs? 
[11:56] danxor danx0r: well 
[11:56] danxor danx0r: phsics is very general 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: objects, vectors, momentum, collision 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: game engines add character classes 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: terrain 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: ability to modify & move stuff around without all hell breaking loose 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: the character class is probably the most important 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: and vehicle thingies 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: it can all be done from scratch, you know, just another layer of code to conceptualize and debug 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: I started out thinking it would be piece of cake 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: like everything, turns out it's sort of hard & stuff 
[11:58] Neas Bade: what do you think the best approach here is in terms of getting there sooner rather than later? 
[11:58] Neas Bade: :) 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: so if someone did it, I'd rather not have to 
[11:58] Neas Bade: what, it's not SMOP? 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: I think I need to look into what's available for C# 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: rather for .NET I guess 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: SMOP? 
[11:59] Neas Bade: simple matter of programming 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: sorry felt the need to collide 
[11:59] Tleiades Hax: no physics here 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: heh 
[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: basicphysics only on Sang 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: oh well 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: so can I walk thru you? 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: hah SMOP exactly 
[12:00] Neas Bade: hehehe 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: frankly before this project, I poo-pooed "game engines" 
[12:00] Charles Krinkeb: "mere implementation detail"? 
[12:00] Tleiades Hax: can we break the physics thing into smaller pieces? 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: I figured I'm a macho programmer, etc 
[12:00] paulie Femto: Has anyone seen nixnerd around? Anyon eknow if he solved his issues with PHP launching a screen session? 
[12:00] paulie Femto: brb. door. 
[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Sean: Do you envision this as a recurring weekly meeting and if so, where do we meet next Tuesday? 
[12:02] Neas Bade: ok, I need to run away for a bit and pick up food at the farm here. Can people look at the Roadmap I started at: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap and embelish with more 
[12:02] Neas Bade: yes, I think we should try to do this every week 
[12:02] danxor danx0r: tleiades: one issue with physics is it's wired into the main code kinda slapdash 
[12:03] Neas Bade: given that we've all gotten a bit more scattered on IRC, it is helpful to have once a week of actually people all being roughly active at the same time 
[12:03] danxor danx0r: there was talk pre 0.4 of a proper event model 
[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: This sim is always up 
[12:03] Neas Bade: want to repropose event models on the -dev list? 
[12:03] Tleiades Hax listens 
[12:03] danxor danx0r: but we'd be more productive chatting if SL chat had name completion like IRC 
[12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, maybe :) 
[12:04] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: it's a client feature on IRC :) 
[12:04] Tleiades Hax: meeting here, is a good way of keeping track of our progress 
[12:04] Michael Wright: I think the tuesday meetings every week is good, its a little bit late for me, but we aren't going to get times that are good for everyone, and I guess one bonus of it being at this time on a tuesday is that if we stick to a hour, then Zero's office hour is straight after (ie its just starting now) 
[12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, that was also a sneaking idea by me :) 
[12:04] danxor danx0r: have LL said anything about physics in the WG? 
[12:04] danxor danx0r: it seems to get short shrift 
[12:04] Neas Bade: nope, not yet 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: like "yeah, we'll add some physics spice at the end" 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Yeah; it's a bit late for me too, I can't do any real work, but as MW said, it's good enough. 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: it shoud be a core ingredient, not a condiment :) 
[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: The best meetings have a beginning, a middle, and most important, an end. 
[12:05] Neas Bade: honestly, the lindens haven't been big on details for the AWG yet 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Alas, I need to go to bed, as I'm supposed to rise in like 5 hours. 
[12:05] Tleiades Hax: I am so totally at odds with the AWG 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Bye all, ace seeing you all on Sang. 
[12:05] Tleiades Hax: nite 
[12:05] Neas Bade: nite 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: well we need to do some wiki work on 0.5 
[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: nite all 
[12:05] Dalien1 Talbot: ok cya Stefan 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: are we all agreed that there be some sort of physics officially supported? 
[12:06] Stefan Andersson: (Sang's proabbly gonna be that legendary 'sirst island' that people talk about in SL) 
[12:06] Neas Bade: well, get over to SL now for Zero's office hours, and you can probably bring it up 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: I'll probably just listen for a bit 
[12:06] Neas Bade: I took a screen shot 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: are we breaking up already? 
[12:06] Tleiades Hax: yes 
[12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: I'll ping you on SL for a TP ? 
[12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: I will blog the meeting :) 
[12:06] Neas Bade: I plan to do it every week, so we can have an animated progression of opensim 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: you look Mahvleous! 
[12:06] Neas Bade: catch you all later 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: later 
[12:07] Neas Bade: dalien, sure 
[12:07] Tleiades Hax: danxor, I think a lot will want to catch Zero Lindens office hours 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: where is zero's office 
[12:07] Tleiades Hax: hmm... I forgot 
[12:07] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: ping me on SL in a few - dalien talbot, once I get there via Sean, I TP you too :) 
[12:07] Dalien1 Talbot: cya on SL... 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:08] Tleiades Hax: should we reconvene? 
[12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: lets continue in IM on the SL ? 
[12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: (and could do a group there, i suppose?) 
[[Category:Chat Logs]]

Chat log from the meeting on 2007-10-09

2009-12-10T15:18:27Z

MW: Undo revision 16223 by MW (Talk)

Chat log from the meeting on 2007-10-09

2009-12-10T15:16:07Z

MW: Undo revision 16222 by MW (Talk)

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[10:45] Stefan Andersson: By the way; if anybody wants to explore the code, writing a simple 'module' 
[10:45] Stefan Andersson: that logs all chat in a region to file would be a fun little project 
[10:45] Dalien1 Talbot: indeed 
[10:45] Tleiades Hax: and usefull for the meetings as well 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: MW introduced the module architecture so that people could write things more or less stand-alone. 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: shouldn't we better revive the IRC gateway module ? 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: that one was quite functional.. 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: Personally, I'm surprised that we haven't had more people setting up custom sims and writing modules. 
[10:46] Stefan Andersson: Why not have both? 
[10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: true. 
[10:47] Stefan Andersson: Everybody seems to want to hax core funcs. 
[10:47] Tleiades Hax: the infrastructure for dynamically loading modules isn't in place yet 
[10:47] Stefan Andersson: Which is fine; but I think the big breakthru comes the day people start pushing code from their own web sites. 
[10:48] Stefan Andersson: Tlei, that's why I want people to get cracking at it. ;) 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: I think two things need to change, maybe three 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: we need a way do dynamically register plugins 
[10:48] Tleiades Hax: we need to fill in the wiki page on modules 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: and as a possible last thing, but almost unrelated 
[10:49] Stefan Andersson: That should be easy enough; a pick-up directory, or a part of the config. 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: I think we should isolate the plugin pattern we use into an interface 
[10:49] Tleiades Hax: I think both 
[10:49] Stefan Andersson: Well, yes; the plug-ins should have a well-defined facade into the system 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: that should coincide with the script engine facade 
[10:50] Tleiades Hax: scan a subdirectory at run time, and look in the config file 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: As I said, simple enough, I think. 
[10:50] Stefan Andersson: We already have dir-scanners and config readers.. 
[10:50] Tleiades Hax: yes, we have all the component parts 
[10:51] Tleiades Hax: should be a piece of cake to do 
[10:51] Stefan Andersson: Actually, we have so many of them they should be refactored into generic plug-in handlers 
[10:52] Tleiades Hax: true 
[10:52] Tleiades Hax: which is why I think we should define an IPlugin interface 
[10:56] Stefan Andersson: Definitively 
[10:56] Stefan Andersson: Actually, if we could get all our plug-ins into the same structure, so that the different plugin managers could just fetch a list of plug-ins implementing a certain type; that'd be like ace++ 
[10:57] Neas Bade: welcome all 
[10:57] Neas Bade: we actually have a pretty reasonable turn out already 
[10:57] Dalien1 Talbot: all of the plugins - like ? 
[10:58] Stefan Andersson: So that the IPlugin should have something like IPlugin.Register( IRegisterPluginFacade facade ) 
[10:58] Dalien1 Talbot: ah something like meta-interface then ? 
[10:58] Stefan Andersson: and IRegisterPluginFacade would have something like RegisterPlugin<TPlugin>( TPlugin instance ) 
[10:58] Neas Bade: man, it will be nice when we have chains and can sit :) 
[10:59] Stefan Andersson: That would mean 'Register me as handling calls to interface TPlugin' 
[10:59] Neas Bade: will someone volunteer to upload transcript of the office hours? 
[11:00] Stefan Andersson: Then any Plugin could ask IPluginFacade for GetHandler<TPlugin>() 
[11:00] Tleiades Hax: if I don't crash, I can do it 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: I'll be the backup. 
[11:00] Dalien1 Talbot: I'll also bounce it to the blog as well. 
[11:00] Neas Bade: Tleiades, you have logging turned on? 
[11:00] Stefan Andersson: Hm. GetHandler<TPlugin>( string name ) I guess 
[11:00] Neas Bade: ok, cool 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: is neas==sean? 
[11:00] Neas Bade: yes 
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: got it 
[11:00] Neas Bade is Sean Dague 
[11:01] Neas Bade: here and in SL 
[11:01] Michael Wright: seems like this is going to be everyone 
[11:01] Neas Bade: sorry for showing up a little late, dalien / stefan, what did we I wonder into? 
[11:01] Stefan Andersson: Um, anybody up for implementing what I just said? :P 
[11:01] Neas Bade: yes, I agree 
[11:02] Tleiades Hax: hmm. where do I turn on logging? 
[11:02] Stefan Andersson: We were just discussing refining the plug-in handling. 
[11:02] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so, I'm off for a while.... 
[11:02] Neas Bade: stefan: ok 
[11:02] Tleiades Hax: k 
[11:02] Charles Krinkeb: As the host, welcome to Sang. Which I believe to the most stable sim on osgrid. It is checked for functionality every morning, runs on the osgrid server and has not crashed once. 
[11:03] Neas Bade: tleides it is under preferences somewhere 
[11:04] Michael Wright: really need to fix up the time progressing sometime (night comes a bit too suddenly) 
[11:04] Tleiades Hax: think of as being close to equator 
[11:04] Neas Bade: Tleiades posted some suggested agenda on the wiki, which seems like as good a place to start as any. Though prior to that, are there other specific things people would like to talk about? 
[11:04] Neas Bade: MW: heh :) 
[11:05] Neas Bade: one of the things I'd like to throw out there is starting to build a master todo list on the wiki, as I think that will help letting people know where they can contribute bits 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: yes, agreed 
[11:06] Neas Bade: man, everyone's quiet :) 
[11:06] Dalien1 Talbot: i have crashed a couple of times :) 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: I think we should clean up the 0.5 list 
[11:06] Tleiades Hax: make a free for all list of features they'd like 
[11:06] Neas Bade: tleiades, I'd like to hear your thoughts on better approaches to the database layer as well 
[11:07] Tleiades Hax: and a list of features we plan for 0.5 
[11:07] Michael Wright: yeah, a todo list is needed (and yeah its kind of the middle of getting my daughter to go to bed right now, hopefully in a bit I'll be able to talk more) 
[11:07] Neas Bade: MW: no worries 
[11:07] Tleiades Hax: I like the list the libsl guys have 
[11:08] Neas Bade: url? 
[11:08] Tleiades Hax: http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Roadmap 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: as for database layer, I think we should consider things in stages 
[11:09] Neas Bade: Ok, I just started a Roadmap page on the wiki 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: right now, focus should be on getting stuf to work 
[11:09] Neas Bade: I'll take notes into it in "Uncategorized" for now and refine from there 
[11:09] Tleiades Hax: kind of brute force 
[11:10] Tleiades Hax: inventory is ok for mysql and sdague has sqlite well under control 
[11:11] Michael Wright: the asset system is one area that so needs doing, I have been going to do it for weeks now, but as some of you know, for the last few weeks I've been very busy and just haven't had time 
[11:11] Tleiades Hax: I have written some unit tests for that, and verified both sqlite and mysql 
[11:11] Charles Krinkeb: Is it a correct assumption that inventory database stuff will not affect the sql users and regions table in grid mode? 
[11:11] Neas Bade: tleides, well, I think you correctly pointed out that some of the use of DataSets ends up being problematic for larger data (as we load it all into memory) 
[11:12] Tleiades Hax: I think mysql will be used for the larger grids, and sqlite for the standalone ones 
[11:12] Neas Bade: I'm assuming you are going to take a slightly different approach on the mysql stuff for that? 
[11:12] Tleiades Hax: that is my gut feeling, so no big worries I think 
[11:12] Neas Bade: if you come up with a better pattern, I'll adapt the sqlite code to match that 
[11:13] Tleiades Hax: yes, not quite as elegant as your code, but it won't flood server memory 
[11:13] Neas Bade: yeh, that's fine :) 
[11:13] Neas Bade: performance counts for something ;) 
[11:13] Neas Bade: we can probably pull some patterns out of it and make it both pretty and performant 
[11:14] Neas Bade: I'll admit to being pretty ado.net ignorant when I got started on that code, so learning as I go 
[11:14] Tleiades Hax: IInventoryData implementation in MySql, is a sample, on how I plan to approach to MySQL 
[11:14] Neas Bade: great 
[11:14] Neas Bade: also, those unit tests you have, can you check them into the build tree somewhere sensible? 
[11:15] Neas Bade: it would be really great to start getting tests in place for key function 
[11:15] Tleiades Hax: well, problem with those are, what about programmers who aren't used to working with unit tests 
[11:15] Charles Krinkeb: What sort of tests, neas? 
[11:15] Neas Bade: we beat them with sticks until they like it :) 
[11:15] danxor danx0r: heh 
[11:16] Tleiades Hax: I have written some unitttests, for inventory data 
[11:16] danxor danx0r: looks like yoga class 
[11:16] Neas Bade: :) 
[11:16] Charles Krinkeb: Perhaps tests could go on the wiki with simple step-by-step? 
[11:16] nebadonb izumi: heheh yea 
[11:16] Tleiades Hax: next will be unit tests for assets 
[11:16] Michael Wright: yeah doing unit tests are always good. 
[11:16] danxor danx0r: hi sorry I'm late -- technical glitches 
[11:17] Neas Bade: danxor and I were actually talking about testing earlier, and I was thinking about starting to create a functional test suite by using libsl to create bots and walk them through the environment. It would help with isolating some of the region crossing bugs I think. 
[11:18] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed. plus, with loadtesting as well... 
[11:18] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. 9 avatars, 8 green dots. 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: especially for the database plugins, it is the only way I can think of, which improves the probability of all the plugins working as expected 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: hey, that is a great idea, automated testing of sim functionality 
[11:18] Tleiades Hax: I love that concept :-) 
[11:18] danxor danx0r: unit tests, ftw 
[11:18] Dalien1 Talbot: charles: self does not create the green dot :) 
[11:18] Neas Bade: tleiades: agreed 
[11:18] danxor danx0r: so would this be something we could all use on a single machine in stand-alone? 
[11:18] nebadonb izumi: you dont see yourself charles 
[11:19] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, I think so 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: minimap is too small to see individual dots 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: ahh zoom. nv 
[11:19] Tleiades Hax: danxor.. zoom works 
[11:19] danxor danx0r: mind 
[11:19] Neas Bade: at least that would be the goal 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: it's great to finally see what you all look like :-) 
[11:20] Tleiades Hax: lol 
[11:20] Michael Wright: I think charles is right about the map, I see my yellow dot for myself then 7 green dots (but there is 8 other people here) one person isn't getting a dot 
[11:20] Dalien1 Talbot: s/like/alike/ ? :) 
[11:20] Neas Bade: heh :) 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: sort of like that old "Addicted To Love" video 
[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: It builds a sense of community, and that is very good. 
[11:20] danxor danx0r: I see yello + 8 
[11:20] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm indeed me too. 
[11:21] Tleiades Hax: so, should I check the unit tests in? 
[11:21] Neas Bade: yes 
[11:21] Tleiades Hax: roger that 
[11:21] Neas Bade: how do you execute them at the moment? 
[11:21] Neas Bade: is it a manual run, or nunit? 
[11:22] Tleiades Hax: well, I set my unit test module as executable, and run "nunit-gui" 
[11:23] Tleiades Hax: we probably should set up a propper nunit test project 
[11:23] Neas Bade: lets start with what you have and work towards that goal 
[11:23] Tleiades Hax: ok 
[11:24] Tleiades Hax: having my tests in svn will actually help me, I have lost 'em twice already 
[11:24] Tleiades Hax: deleted the project folder, to get a fresh copy of opensim, and forgot to backup the tests 
[11:24] Dalien1 Talbot: given the speed with which the things change, i think it is good to push the stuff in as early as possible (assuming it does not break the build or functionality) 
[11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: even if it is piece by piece 
[11:25] Tleiades Hax: yes, small pieces at a time 
[11:25] Tleiades Hax: but I think some branches in svn would be a good thing 
[11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm then you'd need to maintain more than one 
[11:25] Neas Bade: svn branches are actually a beast to merge 
[11:26] Michael Wright: we used to have branches as generally it just leads to problems 
[11:26] Dalien1 Talbot: i would rather try to keep it contained within one branch 
[11:26] Michael Wright: as= and 
[11:26] Neas Bade: I was thinking of creating a mercurial clone of svn trunk for people that wanted to do local branch changes 
[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: We declare a moratorium on updates from time to time for a few revisions if we need to pursue an idea that breaks the build for the general user. 
[11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: my build system always keeps the latest successful build 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: speaking of svn, I was thinking of creating opensim-libs 
[11:27] Neas Bade: in my experience using a distributed scm like mercurial makes life much easier if you want to do lots of branch stuff 
[11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: but ideally the build should never break 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: and starting down the path of getting a proper 3rd party build 
[11:27] Michael Wright: yeah, having a stable tag branch , that is only updated say once a week or whatever, but we tell everyone (non developers) to stick to that, is fine 
[11:27] danxor danx0r: what's mercurial? sounds like git 
[11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, good point 
[11:28] Charles Krinkeb: I was responding to Dan's comment a day or so ago that demanding the build always works may put the developers in a bind from time to time. 
[11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, like git, but easier to learn to use 
[11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: MW: so that branch would be always re-synced automagically ? or needs manual maintenance ? 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: it'll need a merge every week sounds like 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: or maybe not 
[11:28] danxor danx0r: just replace it with the latest thing 
[11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm that would mean manual maintenance... = pita. 
[11:29] danxor danx0r: hmmm 
[11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: could do simpler imho 
[11:29] Neas Bade: is this discussion on the stable tag, or on mercurial? 
[11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: just declare that the stuff should work on monday morning build or such 
[11:29] Tleiades Hax: stable tag, should be pretty easy to do, I think 
[11:29] danxor danx0r: if testing really works, you could build nightly, test, and update stable if test passes 
[11:30] Neas Bade: we need a few tests before we could believe that :) 
[11:30] danxor danx0r: good way to exercise the unit tests; if they miss something, we'll hear right away from users 
[11:30] Neas Bade: but that does tie nicely into test automation to move the stable branch 
[11:30] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: that's almost what i do on opensim.be, except i do not have the unittests - merely if the compile succeeds then i update with the new binary... 
[11:31] Neas Bade: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap 
[11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Dalien, best to test that the client logs into the new binary to be sure. 
[11:31] Neas Bade: been trying to update that on the fly with things poping into my head 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: ckrinke: indeed. once there are automated tests for that, I will include them. 
[11:32] Tleiades Hax: those automated tests, using libsl would be soooo cool 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: although this boils down a bit to the unit testing 
[11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: i assume that every person that commits the code does test that the code actually works :) 
[11:32] Neas Bade: yes, I think automated tests with libsl will help a lot. I'm going to start digging into that tomorrow 
[11:33] Dalien1 Talbot: there were a couple of glitches - but they are usually caught by the build failures, it seems. 
[11:33] Tleiades Hax: the problem is testing on all platforms 
[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: I believe it is fair to say that code committed denotes responsibility to ensure users on both Linux & Windows have not gone backwards. 
[11:33] Dalien1 Talbot: ideally we should have an autobuild for both linux + windows 
[11:34] Neas Bade: right, well we need some automation there first, then we can see about that 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: so that the windows folks did not have to bother with the linux setup, and vice versa. 
[11:34] Neas Bade: we've got opensimulator.org for the linux side 
[11:34] chill ken: is the stable tag idea due to time between releases being too long? what about doing more minor releases? 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: neas: ah you started to do the builds there as well ? 
[11:34] Neas Bade: no, I haven't 
[11:34] Neas Bade: but we could 
[11:34] danxor danx0r: charles: not sure it's reasonable to expect every commit to include full windows + linux tests 
[11:34] danxor danx0r: unless they are automated 
[11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: ah ok - because http://ruth.opensim.be/build does do nightly build (nightly CET :) 
[11:35] danxor danx0r: I try to use my intuition about how far to test each commit 
[11:35] Neas Bade: yeh, and I think that's fair 
[11:35] Dalien1 Talbot: yeah i think it is a good approach. 
[11:35] Neas Bade: if people are running off svn they need to know there are risks there 
[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: No, but I would suggest it is reasonable that each commit, makes a commitment to ensure the users have moved forward and not backwards. That can be as simple as making sure at least one user compiles and runs on the other platform. 
[11:35] Tleiades Hax: I think almost all, run off svn head 
[11:35] danxor danx0r: that's exactly why there should be a semi-stable branch for the increasing number of 'power users' who compile but don't typically code 
[11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: I do not have the windows environment, and some folks do not have linux. 
[11:36] Neas Bade: well, I'm actually leaning against the stable tag, as it ends up being a crutch for not releasing more often 
[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I would concur with Sean 
[11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: maintaining more than one branch is a pain.. 
[11:36] danxor danx0r: yeah, I think the defacto assumption has been, test n your own machine 
[11:36] Tleiades Hax: I'm leaning towards that point of view too 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: typically if you're not doing something involving build or native libs, you won't break the other platform 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: though I did have an exception where mono didn't run something .NET did 
[11:37] Tleiades Hax: the biggest pain is in the native libs 
[11:37] danxor danx0r: I suppose we could run mono on windows, and say mono is the gold standard for "this build doesn't segfault" 
[11:37] Neas Bade: I think that people are running on svn because the code is moving fast. We can't keep the code moving fast if we require a full regression test on every checkin :) 
[11:37] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: Tleiades -- I want to talk about the lib problem 
[11:38] Neas Bade: yeh, native libs is a beast 
[11:38] Neas Bade: danxor: go for it 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: I think *all* libs, native or managed, that are not par tof standard build should be in a separate project 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: it will have two subfolders, managed & unmanaged 
[11:38] danxor danx0r: and each one has folders for each lib 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: then a top-level script to (eventually) invoke all the makes 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: (though some are VS hand-make only now) 
[11:39] Neas Bade: I like that approach 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: copy the dll's & so's into bin 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: and perhaps create zips -- tho that gets into architecture 
[11:39] Neas Bade: I think it would make sense not to polute bin/ with them though 
[11:39] Neas Bade: it would be nice to have a seperate lib/ 
[11:39] danxor danx0r: ie, someone somewhere needs to build them for each target supported 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: neas (sdague?) -- dunno how mono .net deals with looking for them 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: but keep in mind stuff like ode.net.dll needs to find the unmanged ode.dll 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: AND, sometimes ode.dll will need to find other native stuff 
[11:40] Tleiades Hax: mono is actually easier than .net I think 
[11:40] Neas Bade: you just need to add paths in the prebuild.xml 
[11:40] Neas Bade: or nant 
[11:40] danxor danx0r: well I don't mind polluting bin, if it's not in subversion 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: ok I didn't explain right -- 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: you can choose to build libs, _OR_ you just donwload a zip file 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: which someone built for your platform 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: and that zips into bin, or ./lib if you prefer 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: no binaries in subversion! 
[11:41] Neas Bade: well, what you are really talking about is opensim-libs releases 
[11:41] danxor danx0r: yes, right 
[11:41] Neas Bade: yep 
[11:42] Neas Bade: I'm all for that 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: but it's not going to be on the same schedule as opensim commits 
[11:42] Tleiades Hax: I like that too 
[11:42] Neas Bade: opensim-libs is an svn repo 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: yup 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: we can start with just reasonable file organization 
[11:42] Neas Bade: we can make it an svn external to the main opensim so you can have a single checkout to get the all if you are buliding from source 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: and the big makefile, all hail the make can come later 
[11:42] Neas Bade: well, probably we want nant instead of make 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: because for now, you gotsta do all the README's and INSTALL.txt 
[11:42] danxor danx0r: for each liv 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: lib 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: but at least, these will be the proper versions, 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: with maybe an opensim README about compile opts 
[11:43] Neas Bade: ok, danxor, you got the ball for that one? 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: so you can walk through it and end up at aknown state 
[11:43] Dalien1 Talbot: hm how do we "freeze" the version of the foreign lib ? 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: yeah (sigh) 
[11:43] Neas Bade: to do the new repo 
[11:43] danxor danx0r: I'll start it 
[11:43] Dalien1 Talbot: e.g. libsl 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: what else besides ode do I need to build? 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: libsl, 
[11:44] Neas Bade: libsl 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: is taht C++? 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: if we just have it "pull the latest" 
[11:44] Neas Bade: it's libopenjpeg is the .so 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: did we get the version thing right now? 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: dalien -- "pull the latest" is a problem -- 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: then the changes in the libsl would break the opensim-libs 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: precisely 
[11:44] Neas Bade: dalien, you can set a version number on an svn external IIRC 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: that's why we need copies of everything -- so we can say 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: we know this works with opensim 
[11:44] Neas Bade: sort of like a tag 
[11:44] danxor danx0r: you want to pull unstable and take a bet, go ahead 
[11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: or we svn co -r 
[11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: particular revision number 
[11:45] Neas Bade: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch07s03.html 
[11:45] Tleiades Hax: we are caught inbetween chairs on libsl 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: dalien -- well whoever maintains it needs to document what they do 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: there may be patches or subtle make changes 
[11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: cos we'd ideally then need the universal approach to all of the libs 
[11:45] danxor danx0r: for instance, I modified ODE's build to statically link those stupid msvc dll's 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: but at least it's there in svn, in a known state 
[11:46] Dalien1 Talbot: right... so could do something like gentoo & co - download the version that is needed, unpack, possibly patch, build ? 
[11:46] Tleiades Hax: msvc dll dependencies are always a pain 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: if someone does somethhing funky, yeah you just svn -r opensim-libs 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: nice 
[11:46] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so back. 
[11:46] Neas Bade: yeh, getting there would be great 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: tl -- turns out you can just compile statically but no one does 
[11:46] Stefan Andersson: Wow, quite the turnout. And no sim crashes. 
[11:46] danxor danx0r: ok I take the ball on this, with my copiouis free time 
[11:47] Tleiades Hax: yes, we do that at my workplace 
[11:47] Stefan Andersson waves YAY! 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: I'd love to have another commit-level dev on physics... 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: no crash because we all stand still with our arms out 
[11:47] Neas Bade: speaking of physics, how is that all going? 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: and act like it's IRC 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: physics update: got a major bug with terrain 
[11:47] danxor danx0r: strange one, hunting it down 
[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Yep, you'all made a very stable sim server. 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: then some tweaks on bouncinetss 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: bounciness 
[11:48] paulie Femto: Howdy hi! 
[11:48] Neas Bade: hi paulie 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: darok made some bullet improvements but it needs real work 
[11:48] Tleiades Hax: hi paulie 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: Gerard did that awesome hollow patch, but it's one of 20+ prim types 
[11:48] danxor danx0r: all of which can be in combination -- so that's a ton of work 
[11:48] Neas Bade: are there specific things others can do to help out? 
[11:49] danxor danx0r: I'd like to pull GErard in if possible 
[11:49] danxor danx0r: well... 
[11:50] Tleiades Hax: at some point, work on assets will overlap with the prim types 
[11:50] Neas Bade: right, that's a good point tleiades 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: help: prim types 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: yes 
[11:50] danxor danx0r: it's some wicked stuff 
[11:51] danxor danx0r: common code to manage it would be great. Not sure who needs to know other than physics + client tho 
[11:51] danxor danx0r: scripts? 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: scripts will need it 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: to change prims based on scripts 
[11:51] Tleiades Hax: and those changes needs to be persisted into the asset store 
[11:52] Tleiades Hax: I scanned the ll functions today, and all of those functions are not implemented 
[11:52] Dalien1 Talbot: MW/lbsa: would like to spend 3-4 minutes with you later to discuss the TP stuff...(not to interrupt the physics thread now) 
[11:53] Charles Krinkeb: TL. Only about a third are implemented. 
[11:53] Neas Bade: right, I think actually getting assets somewhat more functional is probably required first 
[11:53] Tleiades Hax: yes, I noticed, and for pretty good reasons too 
[11:53] Neas Bade: which I'm very excited tleiades is digging into so much :) 
[11:53] Tleiades Hax: I plan on working on that, for a little while 
[11:53] Michael Wright: Dalien, okay but think for me at least, its going to have to be tomorrow, been a long day and need to spend some time resting 
[11:53] danxor danx0r: other physics issues: 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: in my opinion, ODE will not cut it without it being forked and worked on 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: it's just too damn unstable numerically 
[11:54] Dalien1 Talbot: ok.. actually i think i will need to discuss with Tleiades too :-) 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: it throws exceptions that need to be handled in C++ 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: ppl have recommended OGre and other things 
[11:54] paulie Femto: Hows Bullet comin along? 
[11:54] Neas Bade: once we get assets working to a reasonable amount, there are a few other folks that I work with that are happy to grind out LSL functions 
[11:54] danxor danx0r: you sort of need a 'game engine' on top of physics, I've been ad-hacking it 
[11:55] danxor danx0r: bullet would need similar investment 
[11:55] danxor danx0r: but at least it's C# 
[11:55] paulie Femto: BulletX is more managed from the start, yeah. 
[11:55] Neas Bade: danxor, can you explain the difference between what we physics and game engine? 
[11:55] Neas Bade: in terms of what opensim needs? 
[11:56] danxor danx0r: well 
[11:56] danxor danx0r: phsics is very general 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: objects, vectors, momentum, collision 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: game engines add character classes 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: terrain 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: ability to modify & move stuff around without all hell breaking loose 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: the character class is probably the most important 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: and vehicle thingies 
[11:57] danxor danx0r: it can all be done from scratch, you know, just another layer of code to conceptualize and debug 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: I started out thinking it would be piece of cake 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: like everything, turns out it's sort of hard & stuff 
[11:58] Neas Bade: what do you think the best approach here is in terms of getting there sooner rather than later? 
[11:58] Neas Bade: :) 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: so if someone did it, I'd rather not have to 
[11:58] Neas Bade: what, it's not SMOP? 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: I think I need to look into what's available for C# 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: rather for .NET I guess 
[11:58] danxor danx0r: SMOP? 
[11:59] Neas Bade: simple matter of programming 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: sorry felt the need to collide 
[11:59] Tleiades Hax: no physics here 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: heh 
[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: basicphysics only on Sang 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: oh well 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: so can I walk thru you? 
[11:59] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: hah SMOP exactly 
[12:00] Neas Bade: hehehe 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: frankly before this project, I poo-pooed "game engines" 
[12:00] Charles Krinkeb: "mere implementation detail"? 
[12:00] Tleiades Hax: can we break the physics thing into smaller pieces? 
[12:00] danxor danx0r: I figured I'm a macho programmer, etc 
[12:00] paulie Femto: Has anyone seen nixnerd around? Anyon eknow if he solved his issues with PHP launching a screen session? 
[12:00] paulie Femto: brb. door. 
[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Sean: Do you envision this as a recurring weekly meeting and if so, where do we meet next Tuesday? 
[12:02] Neas Bade: ok, I need to run away for a bit and pick up food at the farm here. Can people look at the Roadmap I started at: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap and embelish with more 
[12:02] Neas Bade: yes, I think we should try to do this every week 
[12:02] danxor danx0r: tleiades: one issue with physics is it's wired into the main code kinda slapdash 
[12:03] Neas Bade: given that we've all gotten a bit more scattered on IRC, it is helpful to have once a week of actually people all being roughly active at the same time 
[12:03] danxor danx0r: there was talk pre 0.4 of a proper event model 
[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: This sim is always up 
[12:03] Neas Bade: want to repropose event models on the -dev list? 
[12:03] Tleiades Hax listens 
[12:03] danxor danx0r: but we'd be more productive chatting if SL chat had name completion like IRC 
[12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, maybe :) 
[12:04] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: it's a client feature on IRC :) 
[12:04] Tleiades Hax: meeting here, is a good way of keeping track of our progress 
[12:04] Michael Wright: I think the tuesday meetings every week is good, its a little bit late for me, but we aren't going to get times that are good for everyone, and I guess one bonus of it being at this time on a tuesday is that if we stick to a hour, then Zero's office hour is straight after (ie its just starting now) 
[12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, that was also a sneaking idea by me :) 
[12:04] danxor danx0r: have LL said anything about physics in the WG? 
[12:04] danxor danx0r: it seems to get short shrift 
[12:04] Neas Bade: nope, not yet 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: like "yeah, we'll add some physics spice at the end" 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Yeah; it's a bit late for me too, I can't do any real work, but as MW said, it's good enough. 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: it shoud be a core ingredient, not a condiment :) 
[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: The best meetings have a beginning, a middle, and most important, an end. 
[12:05] Neas Bade: honestly, the lindens haven't been big on details for the AWG yet 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Alas, I need to go to bed, as I'm supposed to rise in like 5 hours. 
[12:05] Tleiades Hax: I am so totally at odds with the AWG 
[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Bye all, ace seeing you all on Sang. 
[12:05] Tleiades Hax: nite 
[12:05] Neas Bade: nite 
[12:05] danxor danx0r: well we need to do some wiki work on 0.5 
[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: nite all 
[12:05] Dalien1 Talbot: ok cya Stefan 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: are we all agreed that there be some sort of physics officially supported? 
[12:06] Stefan Andersson: (Sang's proabbly gonna be that legendary 'sirst island' that people talk about in SL) 
[12:06] Neas Bade: well, get over to SL now for Zero's office hours, and you can probably bring it up 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: I'll probably just listen for a bit 
[12:06] Neas Bade: I took a screen shot 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: are we breaking up already? 
[12:06] Tleiades Hax: yes 
[12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: I'll ping you on SL for a TP ? 
[12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: I will blog the meeting :) 
[12:06] Neas Bade: I plan to do it every week, so we can have an animated progression of opensim 
[12:06] danxor danx0r: you look Mahvleous! 
[12:06] Neas Bade: catch you all later 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: later 
[12:07] Neas Bade: dalien, sure 
[12:07] Tleiades Hax: danxor, I think a lot will want to catch Zero Lindens office hours 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: where is zero's office 
[12:07] Tleiades Hax: hmm... I forgot 
[12:07] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: ping me on SL in a few - dalien talbot, once I get there via Sean, I TP you too :) 
[12:07] Dalien1 Talbot: cya on SL... 
[12:07] danxor danx0r: ok 
[12:08] Tleiades Hax: should we reconvene? 
[12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: lets continue in IM on the SL ? 
[12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: (and could do a group there, i suppose?) 
[[Category:Chat Logs]]

2008-02-13T13:21:31Z

MW:

== OpenSim Core Developers ==
These people have commit access to our central SVN server and are regular contributors to the codebase.

(please add in as much info as you like for your name)

<table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0">
<tr>
<th>Photo </th>
<th>IRC Nick </th>
<th>Name</th>
<th>SL Avatar</th>
<th>Other Grid</th>
<th>Time Zone (UTC)</th>
<th>Org</th>
<th>Areas of Interest</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:MW / Michael Wright |MW / Michael Wright ]]</td>
<td>Darren</td>
<td>Wright Juran</td>
<td></td>
<td>+0</td>
<td>Tribal Media AB</td>
<td>everything</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:Adam Frisby|Adam Frisby]]</td>
<td>Adam Frisby</td>
<td>Adam Zaius</td>
<td></td>
<td>+8</td>
<td>DeepThink Pty Ltd</td>
<td>Terrain, Performance</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:MingChen|MingChen]]</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td></td>
<td>-6</td>
<td>DeepThink Pty Ltd</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>[[User:lbsa71|lbsa71]]</td>
<td>Stefan Andersson</td>
<td>PierreJoseph Proudhon</td>
<td>OSG:Stefan Andersson OLG:Stefan Andersson</td>
<td>+1</td>
<td>Tribal Media AB</td>
<td> 3D and Web Integration</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:SeanDague|sdague]]</td>
<td>Sean Dague</td>
<td>Neas Bade</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Database, Linux</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:babblefrog|babblefrog]]</td>
<td>Brian McBee</td>
<td>Dogen Coldstream</td>
<td>Babblefrog Ballistic (osgrid)</td>
<td>-8</td>
<td>Disorganized</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:Tedd|Tedd]]</td>
<td>Tedd Hansen</td>
<td>Tedd Maa</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td>Tedd Hansen</td>
<td>Programming/Scripting/Architecture</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:danx0r|danx0r]]</td>
<td>Dan Miller</td>
<td>Albert Pascal</td>
<td></td>
<td>-8</td>
<td>squiggle.com</td>
<td>PHEEZIKS; everything</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:dalien|dalien]]</td>
<td>Dalien Talbot</td>
<td>Dalien Talbot</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td>Mostly TCP-based</td>
<td>Small fixes; rev.eng./prototyping</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>ZeroPoint</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Guilderoy Dench</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Programming/Database</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>Tleiades</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Tleiades Hax</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grid servers/Database</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>cfk</td>
<td>Charles Krinke</td>
<td>Charlesk Bing</td>
<td></td>
<td>-8</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Reliability/Grid servers/ll-functions</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:chi11ken|chi11ken]]</td>
<td>Jeff Ames</td>
<td>Chillken Proto</td>
<td></td>
<td>+9</td>
<td>3Di</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:Darok|Darok]]</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Darok Kaminski</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Physics engines (especially BulletX)</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:adjohn|adjohn]]</td>
<td>Adam Johnson</td>
<td>Zeuz Zenovka</td>
<td></td>
<td>+9</td>
<td>3Di</td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:joha1|joha1]]</td>
<td>Johan Berntsson</td>
<td>N/A</td>
<td></td>
<td>+9</td>
<td>3Di</td>
<td>Performance, packet handling/libSL</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:Teravus|Teravus]]</td>
<td>Teravus</td>
<td>Teravus Ousley</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>W3z</td>
<td>Physics & Admin tools, A working sim.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[User:Justincc|Justincc]]</td>
<td>Justin Clark-Casey</td>
<td>Lulworth Beaumont</td>
<td>Justin Clark-Casey (osgrid)</td>
<td>+0</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Grid servers & performance, inventory (avatar and object).</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td />
<td>[[Alondria]]</td>
<td></td>
<td>Alondria LeFay</td>
<td>Alondria LeFay (OSGrid)</td>
<td>-8</td>
<td>Independent</td>
<td>Implementation of LSL functions and other scripting tidbits.</td>
</tr>
</table>

== Additional Developers/Testers/Contributors ==
These people have contributed bug reports, patches or other contributions to OpenSim.

<table border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" class="wikitable sortable">
<tr>
<th>IRC Nick </th>
<th>Name</th>
<th>SL Avatar</th>
<th>Other Grid</th>
<th>Time Zone (UTC)</th>
<th>Org</th>
<th>Areas of Interest</th>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:Nebadon|Nebadon]]</td>
<td></td>
<td>Nebadon Izumi</td>
<td></td>
<td>-8</td>
<td></td>
<td>Building, Scripting, Testing</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:jtclark48|jclark4]]</td>
<td>Jay Clark</td>
<td>Jay Clarke</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Physics, Grid Host, AI, Scripting, Testing</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Gareth</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:AdamStevenson|BigFootAg]]</td>
<td>Adam Stevenson</td>
<td>Adamus Petrov</td>
<td></td>
<td>-6</td>
<td>Texas A&M University</td>
<td>AI, Skynet, Evolving Systems, Biology</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Vicero Lambert|Vicero Lambert]]</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Ldvoipeng</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>idoru</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Magi|Magi]]</td>
<td>Andy Agnew</td>
<td>Magi Merlin</td>
<td></td>
<td>+10</td>
<td>Spun Pty Ltd</td>
<td>3D Web Integration, Database stuff and playing with the odds and ends box.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>john_</td>
<td>John Moyer</td>
<td>VAJohn GeekSquad or Matthew Kendal</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>Best Buy/Geek Squad</td>
<td>Tester</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:ClarkZone|ClarkZone]]</td>
<td>Troy Admin(@ClarkZone)</td>
<td>Troy Childs</td>
<td>Troy Admin (ClarkZone)</td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>Http://clarkzone.dyndns.org</td>
<td>Tester and Grid Host</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:aiaustin|aiaustin]]</td>
<td>Ai Austin</td>
<td>Ai Austin</td>
<td>Ai AIAI (AIAI Grid) Ai Ariella (Openlifegrid) Ai Beta (DeepGrid) </td>
<td>+0</td>
<td>AIAI, University of Edinburgh http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~ai/</td>
<td>Windows Vista tests Content testing Use of multiple VWs</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:balthazar|balthazar]]</td>
<td>Trevor Brooks</td>
<td>Balthazar Sin</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>None</td>
<td>Terrains, testing and some small coding tasks</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:jimbo2120|jimbo2120]]</td>
<td>Michael Osias</td>
<td>Illuminous Beltran</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Grid, AI, Skynet, coding and testing</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Sakai|Sakai]]</td>
<td>Steve S</td>
<td></td>
<td>Sakai Openlife (OpenlifeGrid)</td>
<td>+10</td>
<td>http://www.openlifegrid.com</td>
<td>Grid, Hardware, Testing, Contribution</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>MaltosSosa</td>
<td>Maltos Sosa</td>
<td>Maltos Sosa </td>
<td>Maltos Sosa (Central Grid)</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Central Grid</td>
<td>Grid Operator, Central Grid Project Manager. Anything we can offer, just ask.</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:TayB|TayB]]</td>
<td>Earl B</td>
<td>Taylor Boyau</td>
<td></td>
<td>-10</td>
<td>Vizi</td>
<td>Grid Host,Networking,Contributions & Testing.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:JamieDav|JamieDav]]</td>
<td>Jamie David</td>
<td>Jamie David</td>
<td></td>
<td>+7</td>
<td>Forum</td>
<td>Grid, Sim, Avitar, Functionality</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Krtaylor|Krtaylor]]</td>
<td>Kurt Taylor</td>
<td>Kurt Stringer </td>
<td></td>
<td>-6</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Grid, Networking, Monitoring, Scripting, Inventory, Testing</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Nink|Nink]]</td>
<td>Peter Finn</td>
<td>Nink Noonan</td>
<td></td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Disruptive Influence.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Bruce|Bruce]]</td>
<td>Bruce Meerson</td>
<td>Bruce Meerson</td>
<td></td>
<td>+8</td>
<td>HiPiHi</td>
<td>Watching.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Derek|Derek]]</td>
<td>Derek Tang</td>
<td>Derek Timeless</td>
<td></td>
<td>+8</td>
<td>http://opensimulator.org.cn</td>
<td>Running a public WINDOWS sim for testing, Docs, Helping Chinese users, Building Chinese opensim communities, watching</td>
</tr>
<tr>

<tr>
<td>[[CharlieO]]</td>
<td>Dan</td>
<td>Charlie Omega</td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td>Mild coding/tweaking/simple feature adds, Stress testing/break stuff, Testing limits of existing code. Making sure [[LSL Status]] is up to date</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>oobscure</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Opensource Obscure</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td>http://www.opensim.it</td>
<td>Running a public Linux sim for testing, Docs, Helping italian users, Building opensim communities, Watching</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>pitman</td>
<td>Mike Pitman</td>
<td>Rez Tone</td>
<td></td>
<td> </td>
<td>IBM</td>
<td>Scientific visualization schemes, virt world product design, persistant workspaces, virt world based big biz</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>cmu</td>
<td>Christopher Mumme</td>
<td>Snook Destiny</td>
<td></td>
<td>+1</td>
<td>http://www.cmu-develop.de/ and research group "Collaboration Systems and CSCW" at Clausthal University of Technology</td>
<td>Testing OpenSim, translating the OpenSim Wiki into German and reporting on OpenSim</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[Silpol]]</td>
<td>Andriy Tymchenko</td>
<td>Andy Tir</td>
<td></td>
<td>EET (+2/3)</td>
<td>Nokia</td>
<td>highly uncoordinated mess with elements of palace games, under-table diplomacy, rebellion, coup d'état and mutiny. optionally pirate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Grumly|Grumly]]</td>
<td></td>
<td>Forest Klaar</td>
<td></td>
<td>GMT+1</td>
<td>.NET MCAD Dev/Arch/Trainer</td>
<td>Trying to get into OpenSim code for now. Particularly interrested in data persistence.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[daTwitch]]</td>
<td>James G. Stallings II</td>
<td> Lazarus Longstaff</td>
<td>Hiro Protagonist (OSGrid) Takeshi Takahashi (OpenLife)</td>
<td>-5</td>
<td>House Husband</td>
<td>Testing everything to the limits I possibly can Sometime wiki editor blog at http://da5vid.wordpress.com</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>gryc</td>
<td>Gryc Ueusp</td>
<td>Gryc Uriza</td>
<td>Gryc Uriza(OSGrid)</td>
<td>-6</td>
<td></td>
<td>PHP scripting, web interfaces, interconnectivity, cross-platformedness</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:Phrearch|Phrearch]]</td>
<td>Jeroen van Veen</td>
<td>Phrearch Miles</td>
<td>Phrearch Miles(OSGrid)</td>
<td>Amsterdam/Paris</td>
<td></td>
<td>Educational mashup, RIA, scripting, intranet, linux, networking</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:Burnman|Burnman]]</td>
<td>Allen Wilkins</td>
<td>Burnman Bedlam</td>
<td>Sid Green (United Grid)</td>
<td>Boston, USA</td>
<td>United Grid</td>
<td>Testing, testing, and more testing! Getting familiar with the source, interested in all aspects of the project.</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:krisbfunk|krisbfunk]]</td>
<td>Kris Bulman</td>
<td>krisbfunk Vought</td>
<td>Krisbfunk Nocturnal(OSGrid)</td>
<td>PE, Canada</td>
<td>Edactive Technologies Nocturnal Eye Productions UPEI</td>
<td>Currently: Testing, bug reports, wiki updating.</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td>[[User:HashBox|HashBox]]</td>
<td>Zane Ashby</td>
<td>Sibariel Darkstone</td>
<td>Sibariel Darkstone (OSGrid)</td>
<td>New Zealand (+12)</td>
<td></td>
<td>Testing, bug reports, and updating the wiki.</td>

<tr>
<td>[[User:Mikkopa|mikkopa]]</td>
<td>Mikko Pallari</td>
<td></td>
<td></td>
<td>+2</td>
<td>realXtend</td>
<td>Scripting, communication, gaming, sounds</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:Kinoc|Kinoc]]</td>
<td>Kino Coursey</td>
<td>Daxxon Jaxxon</td>
<td>Daxxon Kinoc (OSgrid)</td>
<td>-6</td>
<td>Daxtron Laboratories http://www.daxtron.com University of North Texas</td>
<td>AI, Semantic web, Ontologies, Natural Laanguage Processing, Cyc, Bots, NPC </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:trapuh|trapuh]]</td>
<td>Pedro Ribeiro</td>
<td>Vaiten Forder</td>
<td></td>
<td>GMT</td>
<td>University Student, Escola Superior de Educação de Viseu, Portugal </td>
<td>Testing, eventual bug reports and wiki. Music, web/digital arts and php+sql.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>[[User:SonicViz|SonicViz]]</td>
<td>Paul Cohen</td>
<td>Komuso Tokugawa</td>
<td></td>
<td>+9</td>
<td>Http://sonicviz.com</td>
<td>Audio/Music, Interactive Music, Control Protocols, Interfaces, VisualFX, Procedural animation/Generative systems + testing and general dev</td>
</tr>
</table>
[[Category:Main]]
[[Category:Development]]