Chat log from the meeting on 2022-03-08

 [11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi everyone [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Exciting week this week, nothing happened :D [11:01] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jagga [11:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well apart from closing some mantis things out that been sitting for years [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, sometimes it is good to have weeks like that. [11:02] Ubit Umarov: well a few things did happen [11:02] Jagga Meredith: hi [11:02] Ubit Umarov: earth did move a bit.. even turn around a few times [11:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: rofl [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker. [11:03] Kayaker Magic whispers: Hi Andrew! And everyone else! [11:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I found a few more potential mantis tickets that I will do when I find the time, but a lot of what's left has so much work involved in re-testing that I am almost tempted to just close them [11:04] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like things that came up once in the last ten years ought to not be that big an issue, even if I'd rather them stay [11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew, all [11:04] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Problem is the mess has gotten so bad that you lose all overview of what's actually worth paying attention to I feel [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby. [11:05] Kayaker Magic: We are such a bunch of stuck-in-the-muds, this fake mirror-ball over my head continues to work pretty well! [11:05] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: heya Selby... [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if the issues are that old you can't be certain whether the issue has been fixed or not. [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That's the problem, on one hand it has not come up again in a newer ticket and hasn't seen a reply either, but it is also such a drag to re-test it... [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like freeswitch issues, I value what's left of my sanity, setting that up is just pain [11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Some of the other stuff is really hard to root out what the actual cause was as they lack information [11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I can come up with plenty of reasons to close old stuff, but I also don't feel I should either [11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: At the same time getting rid of some of this stuff is needed at some point as it is a total mess [11:07] Ubit Umarov: kay that fake mirror is just a prim with a texture [11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Can't expect anyone to come in and provide patches when you have 1200 open issues, where do you even start [11:08] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, Yes. I wouldn't want to try testing anything to do with FreeSwitch. I remember how much of a hassle it was to get working. [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, start with the mantis reports that have patches attached. [11:09] Ubit Umarov: guess a lot of open ones is just because no one did close [11:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That too [11:09] Ubit Umarov: since we usually leave that to reporter [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think some reporters know they are supposed to close the report. [11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well finding if a patch has been applied or not is a little harder when the code has been modified and historically patches have often been applied in modified form so search for author doesn't work [11:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I mean if we accept a patch, apply as is, change in a subsequent commit right after so at least the contribution is noted and the papertrail is there to be found [11:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I did close two mantis tickets that had the code in there, but was applied by someone else [11:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: diff search in git is so damn slow [11:12] Ubit Umarov: patchs do have some kind of feedback when we do look [11:13] Ubit Umarov: like thanks, but NO [11:13] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I contribute to a few things on github, there the common course is to apply the merge request and then change what you don't like right after [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I ammend the comment if I accept a patch from someone but the patch needs some adjust before it can be committed to the source tree. [11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The upside of accepting as-is and changing later is that you can blame someone else for breaking it lol [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: True but then it means you probably shouldn't have accepted the patch in the first place. :) [11:15] Ubit Umarov: correct way to accept patchs doing git am --signoff [11:16] Ubit Umarov: taht does set the author and who did accept it [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I keep meaning to look for information on handling merge requests. I did look once before but didn't find anything. I don't want to download a full copy of someone elses code tree just to find out what they changed before I can decide whether to accept the changes. [11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not gonna comment on what that does to people, but just say that it was curious to find the author was not in git history, but checking the file the changes were merged and only slightly altered, which makes it hard to figure out what happened, but alas [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Signing off has been done before. You can see examples of that in the source tree. [11:17] Ubit Umarov: to accept a patch, you do need to know what you are doing :p [11:17] Ubit Umarov: better have some understanding of that code are, or just keep hands off [11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Then no code should ever go in, cause do any of us really "know"? [11:19] Ubit Umarov: well we are here.. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: so, some bits where kinda understud... [11:19] Ubit Umarov: well or jsut made to work even without understanding.. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: ;) [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: With the bugs I have found thus far I don't trust whatever is responsible for my luck anymore [11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Universe has it out for me lol [11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I did update some pages on the wiki this past week, bring things up to date [11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Feel free to jump on IRC and complain if something needs updating [11:22] Ubit Umarov: well no one wants to fo to irc [11:22] Ubit Umarov: uff [11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Age old debate of "why no discord" like grrr IRC isn't out to sell our data [11:24] Ubit Umarov: no to mention how heavy and confusing discord is [11:24] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: *bleh* <--discord [11:24] Ubit Umarov: having it iddle and minimze uses like 3 to 5W on cpu alone [11:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It uses more resources than my browser with 300 open tabs [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: WIth IRC I can follow multiple discussions taking place at once. With Discord you may have to check several channels but then it is harder to follow disussions taking place in several channels at once. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: i just get lost on discord :) [11:26] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: weechat.org esp for vim users [11:26] Ubit Umarov: and 2 many lights and things [11:26] Ubit Umarov: sad to see what people do chose [11:27] Ubit Umarov: does not tell good things about people :P [11:27] Ubit Umarov: well details ;) [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I have Discord because some people I help out with tech support use it. [11:27] Ubit Umarov: current RL tells a lot about people [11:28] Ubit Umarov: whatever [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I last started the Discord client last year [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, oh. I get to blame you for one of the five Discord servers I'm watching? ;) [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you? [11:29] Jagga Meredith: I'm on it every day. Tech support for aviworlds. [11:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I got a few folks that since the whole metaverse bullshit came about asked for an opensim discord and I'm like "have you heard of this wonderful thing called IRC"... [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I have it running all the time but I don't look at it very often. [11:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So Gavin, how you holding up battling the viewer? [11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Giving you much trouble or has it started to dance to your tune? [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I battled a massive set of changes all day today [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: VS is so picky... [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it rusn fine in SL - actually great [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: runs* [11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Nice :D [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: todays exercise was to add in some code to hide menu and UI items that does not work in Opensim [11:35] Ubit Umarov: fun :) [11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: hm do we have that many things not supported still, I know Avatar Picker is one [11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Trying to get Firestorm to enable the grid status rss feed lately [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all marketplace functionality [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of help stuff [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pathfinding [11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Ah okay [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: experiences [11:36] Ubit Umarov: 0.9 does send rss info [11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yup [11:36] Ubit Umarov: but grids need to have the web things [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: web profiles and all kinds of account shit [11:36] Ubit Umarov: and viewers do need to look [11:36] Ubit Umarov: guess they don't [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure but standalones won't [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer has to work also on a standalone [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Supporting path finding would be nice. [11:37] Ubit Umarov: but they do warn when there is on at.. sl :p [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not seen a pathfinding thing in SL since it was introduced, but I have not particularly looked [11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Genuinely don't even know what it's for lol Experiences to me defeat the point of a virtual social world, if I wanted to be alone doing something I'd play a game instead [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: yea. Unless you are having something moving around in a dynamic environment KFM probably takes care of most of the needs that might also be done via pathfinding. [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the plan is to apply some 150 patches more to the viewr so there is a clean updated version working in SL, then fork it for opensim and start to mod it for it [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: That's going to keep you busy for a while. [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: much easer than trying to fit everything into one mould [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Good luck with all that work. [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and then all patches has to be applied to the RLV branch, get it building and tested [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some will apply fine, some are a nightmare [11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Last time I used RLV it was before we had NPCs... [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not made up my mind if I want to even bother [11:42] Ubit Umarov: think we doing well without that bad sl pathfinding [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't often see references to RLV so I always forget what it means. [11:42] Ubit Umarov: and the nav mesh [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Restrained Life Viewer [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a roleplay thing [11:43] Ubit Umarov: yeah to get a girl naked remotly [11:43] Ubit Umarov: or similar [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. I always forget that as I don't get in to RPG stuff inworld. [11:43] Jagga Meredith: the vampire crowd uses it [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a long time since I ran across a vampire in SL. [11:44] Ubit Umarov: that is other strange thing about some people [11:44] Ubit Umarov: they like to be dominated.. [11:44] Ubit Umarov: but well.. details.. [11:45] Jagga Meredith: *closes door to his extensive whip and chain collection* [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the jaw-drop on some of the LL staff when they stated discussing how to do a captive TFA login with RLV was priceless [11:46] Ubit Umarov: tfa when ppl give full login credentials lol [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol [11:46] Ubit Umarov: ( if not full access to machine via teamview ) [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is what they do [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the next step is full access to credit card [11:47] Ubit Umarov: seems that happens also [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I am not super-keen on supporting shit like that [11:47] Ubit Umarov: but well that is in psico domain, still not code domain [11:48] Ubit Umarov: even considering some code now needs psico analyses to understand :p [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it? [11:48] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:49] Ubit Umarov: at least to understand wtf the code was thinking [11:49] Ubit Umarov: the coder [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like teh LL code that use BOOL for enums, bool, loop counters and masks [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( the fact we where the coder 2 weeks ago is also a possible details.. ) [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: their def is a S32 [11:50] Ubit Umarov: well c++ has tons of nonsense [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, sounds like a compiler issue. It should have rejected some of those uses. [11:51] Ubit Umarov: added a lot of complexity to C and kept some of its issues :) [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the compiler only knows the LL defined BOOL is an S32 [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and there are 14700 of them in the viewer code [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks hands Gavin a copy of regexxer [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ha [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not as easy as that [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Of course not. [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or redefine the BOOL to bool and se everything fail to compile [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: That's one way to quickly find the improper declaration. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: so and what abotu opensim news? [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is Andrew, but a very time consuming way [11:55] Ubit Umarov: seems there is some efford from alchemy viewer to update it to current opensim [11:55] Ubit Umarov: lets see [11:55] Ubit Umarov: ... from alchemy viewer team... [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are a number of opensim patches lately [11:56] Ubit Umarov: hm im not following their code changes [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as restored udp inventory [11:56] Ubit Umarov: in fact lost track of their git etc [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Only two main items in terms of Open Sim news from this past week. Mantis 6020 was addressed but that was just a minor rewording of a message. The main news is the release tagging of 0.9.2.2Dev. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: s/release// [11:57] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.2.2dev wasn't last week alreadY? [11:57] Ubit Umarov: that was part of the release process [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I feel your pain. I have to merge code from two branches. but I have less then 50 patches to juggle. [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you release it? [11:58] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.2.2 ? ofc not [11:58] Ubit Umarov: i did release 0.9.2.1 :p [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have patches to conver the BOOL for all but about 1700 [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, the version number and new dev tag got applied this time last week a few hours after the meeting. [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some of the conversions result in positive FPS improvments, because now the compiler understands what is happening and can optimize it properly [12:00] Ubit Umarov: "compiler" .. "can optimize it properly" some ppl have faith :P [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's good. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when the compiler knows it is a bool and not just some random int [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Lots of little improvements in the code being applied of late. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it can shedule it better [12:00] Ubit Umarov: well yeah now and then it does well [12:01] Ubit Umarov: ofc guess still [12:01] Ubit Umarov: push eax [12:01] Ubit Umarov: pop eax [12:01] Ubit Umarov: everywhere [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some are called very often and may even be placed in registers [12:02] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:02] Ubit Umarov: as i said, even modern .net JIT does some nice code here and there [12:03] Ubit Umarov: a mess ocasionaly :) [12:03] Kayaker Magic: I've got to leave, RL is calling. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker. See you next week. [12:03] Ubit Umarov: ok cya [12:03] Jagga Meredith: Had a weird glitch. One of my tenants noticed she couldn't walk some places on her parcel.  Found an invisible area about the shape of her house, but offset. with slight overlap I could TP inside it.  Restart made it go away. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: see teleports are death and rebirth [12:04] Jagga Meredith: on osgrid, didn't report because couldn't duplicate [12:04] Ubit Umarov: kay body just broke into letters and did fall on floor [12:04] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I've seen that issue on my 4x4 region back at digiworldz... @jagga [12:04] Jagga Meredith: ah ok [12:04] Ubit Umarov: duuuh [12:04] Ubit Umarov: get a house that is not convex [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have seen something like that. Like there is an invisible bump in the terrain [12:05] Jagga Meredith: it's a big region [12:05] Jagga Meredith: yup [12:05] Ubit Umarov: bumps o terrain?? [12:05] Ubit Umarov: there is no such thing [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok... [12:06] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: in my case it was up in a build around 600m -up [12:06] Ubit Umarov: there is mismatch from what we see and what physics see [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you terraform you make bumps in the terrain [12:06] Ubit Umarov: but not bumps [12:06] Jagga Meredith: ok, that might be it [12:06] Ubit Umarov: now... shape terrain features are really not supported [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sometimes the physics and visible terrian do not match [12:07] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: yes.. a restart didn't correct... turns out one object seemed to be causing the issue. The object orbitted, but the "bump" was static. When I removed said object... said mysterious bump disappered.. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: if you do a sharp thing, you will see ripple effects [12:07] Ubit Umarov: pure viewer side artifacts [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suspect there is a bit error or something in the map file [12:08] Ubit Umarov: well that object may have a issue [12:08] Ubit Umarov: hard to guess [12:08] Ubit Umarov: but a typical can't get in house to close to it is convex issue [12:08] Jagga Meredith: ghost in the machine [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a couple places where it is impossible to smooth the terrain [12:08] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: object was a single-object... didn't have any transparent attachments./links... [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or revert it [12:09] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002:  keystroke to see if invisble... *shrugs* [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that terain was formed ages ago (like 2011) [12:09] Ubit Umarov: wel i looked to terrain like 2 or 3 yrs ago? [12:10] Ubit Umarov: one change was changing the heighs from double to float [12:10] Ubit Umarov: now ppl tell im a very bad programmer because of that [12:10] Jagga Meredith: mine was definitely a ghost object, could walk up and down the roofline [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [12:11] Ubit Umarov: i broke terrain... double has less precision.. [12:11] Ubit Umarov: THIS nonsense low resolution terrain.. can you believe ppl think it needs to be stored on double ?? [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have an interesting object that always draws on map tile generation, but impossible to find in-world or even in the prim table for the region [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: double has less ?? [12:12] Ubit Umarov: well there is vodoo :p [12:13] Ubit Umarov: i broke terrain... double -> float has less precision.. [12:14] Ubit Umarov: i fact it could be a ushort, but details [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Precision for terrain shouldn't be much of an issue. [12:14] Ubit Umarov: x and Y have 1 m precision :) [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: It isn't like most people would notice the difference in the terrain. [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is mostly tesselation anyway [12:15] Ubit Umarov: but some of those thing we need 15 digits on Z :p [12:15] Ubit Umarov: ..think.. [12:15] Ubit Umarov: well whatever [12:15] Ubit Umarov: i was surprise reading that again on discord a few days ago [12:15] Ubit Umarov: and a few.. [12:15] Ubit Umarov: just has to leave that "server" [12:15] Ubit Umarov: had [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: It is just a cunning plan to force people to keep regions sizes to something reasonable. ;) [12:16] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:16] Ubit Umarov: well ppl can put a lot of ram on machines now [12:16] Ubit Umarov: 128GB on gen12 i7 ? [12:17] Jagga Meredith: you try landing a B52 on a 2x2 [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple introduced anew Mac today with the M1 ULTRA processor [12:17] Ubit Umarov: possible takeoff a loaded one is harder [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I don't know of anyone who has tried that in SL. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: or OS for that matter. [12:18] Ubit Umarov: andrew sl does not have 2x2 :p [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, typo. [12:18] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I wonder if there is a B52 available in any of the main flight simulator programs. [12:19] Ubit Umarov: well seen that google warning abotu gmail access? [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't use gmail. [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't use gmail [12:19] Ubit Umarov: simple pop3 and smpt auth seems to stop working soon [12:19] Ubit Umarov: ie based on just user and password [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I know some people that will be affected by that change. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: our llemaol was not working bc has no tls [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: installing new cert in my mailserver tomorrow [12:20] Jagga Meredith: current build is a U2 spyplane. that takes a bit of runway [12:20] Ubit Umarov: diva code does do tls but will stop also [12:21] Ubit Umarov: yeah ppl do need to run own mailservers [12:21] Ubit Umarov: assuming they are accepted anywhere now [12:21] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: heh.. good luck w/ that... [12:21] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:22] Ubit Umarov: email is a harder thing to use now [12:22] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: yeah.. you need a gmail-account.. in order to contact everyone to accept your personal-email.. and/or check spam... lol [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to configure a mailserver from the opensource components - you need to be a magician [12:23] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: postfix is easier than sendmail... [12:23] Ubit Umarov: yeha and to get its email accepted by others.. [12:23] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: but yeah... [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I rather liked Qmail. [12:23] Ubit Umarov: need entries on dns etc etc [12:23] Jagga Meredith: it was great but broke in 2000 [12:23] Ubit Umarov: even so, can be refused [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Synology has an excellent mail server - actually two [12:23] Ubit Umarov: some for example refuse emails from dynamic IPs [12:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all [12:24] Ubit Umarov: cya [12:24] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. See you next week. [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby [12:24] Ubit Umarov: well even my windows email program was going to stop working with gmail [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: It is about time to wrap up the meeting for today. We are almost a half hour past the usual hour. Any last minute questions/comments re: Open SIm? [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I refuse email from dyn ip [12:25] Ubit Umarov: ofc a lot will just stop for ever [12:25] Ubit Umarov: need a new version, and or a new operating system bahh [12:25] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: see you guys next week [12:25] Ubit Umarov: cya [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Jamie [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Jamie. See you next week. [12:26] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye [12:26] Ubit Umarov: well email is a big problem [12:26] Ubit Umarov: 200% abuse [12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there has been viewer code updates to basically no support a grid mailserver, but just redirect to the user SL profile page [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: WIth several people leaving I will call this meeting to a close. [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week. [12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is sorto useless in opensim [12:26] Ubit Umarov: so guess we will lose llemail [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you ever get that email functionailty to work at all server side? [12:27] Ubit Umarov: unless on some grids and ppl that can run a proper mailler [12:27] Jagga Meredith: I've ;got a client on office 365. aye yi yi yi yi [12:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah did work fine [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [12:27] Ubit Umarov: but has no ssl/tls :p [12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I started looking in to replacing the email part of OS with a newer library that could support some of the new(er) auth methods. [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that was the problem :-) [12:27] Ubit Umarov: so needs a special friendly mailler [12:28] Ubit Umarov: well that is kinad easy to fix [12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'm not gonna relax auth on the mailserver at all [12:28] Ubit Umarov: we are using a dead project [12:28] Ubit Umarov: that actuall adds nothing to .net mail [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I started looking at relplacing DotNetEmail with MailKit. [12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning? [12:29] Ubit Umarov: mailkit is a mess [12:29] Ubit Umarov: and solves nothing [12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: .-( [12:29] Ubit Umarov: we do not need a full email crap [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: It seems to be a stock part of C# rather than some (no longer) supported library. It also supports the additional auth methods. [12:29] Ubit Umarov: nad mailkit does not fix the new gmail problems [12:29] Ubit Umarov: dos have partial suport of oath [12:30] Ubit Umarov: but needs more code from google [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it probalby only works with exchange/outlook [12:30] Ubit Umarov: then other code for microsoft [12:30] Ubit Umarov: etc [12:30] Jagga Meredith: blech [12:30] Ubit Umarov: from what i see each use of Oauth needs private code for that provider [12:31] Ubit Umarov: outlook will stop working actually [12:31] Jagga Meredith: what i figured [12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: If DotNetMail needs to be replaced to have something with newer auth methods and MailKit isn't the thing to use then what is? [12:31] Ubit Umarov: DotNetMail is just old yes [12:31] Ubit Umarov: chanign to the .net basic mail is a improvement over it [12:32] Ubit Umarov: and will actually work with gmail until may 22 :P [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: We need something more than just basic mail. [12:32] Ubit Umarov: bc tls with still auth is possible tell that date [12:32] Ubit Umarov: no we do not need more than basic mail [12:33] Ubit Umarov: llemail is limited [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: We won't be able to deliver mail to a lot of newer mail servers. [12:33] Ubit Umarov: nay other use for opensim is also limited [12:33] Ubit Umarov: yes [12:33] Ubit Umarov: but mailkit currently will not fix that either [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: That's bad. [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: MailKit supports several other auth methods when talking with mail servers. [12:35] Ubit Umarov: yeah that no one else uses :p [12:35] Ubit Umarov: well i did look and did get mailkit [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: This is why I gave up on it. I try and find something better and just get shot down so we just remain stuck on using mail code that is old and no longer supported. [12:36] Ubit Umarov: the one fo .net.4.6.1 adds more than 100 dlls to opensim [12:36] Ubit Umarov: if used [12:36] Ubit Umarov: adds replacements for half the .net framework :P [12:37] Ubit Umarov: so dam stupid lol [12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does the dlls do? [12:37] Ubit Umarov: BS [12:37] Ubit Umarov: system.buffers [12:37] Ubit Umarov: system.memory [12:37] Ubit Umarov: blabla.unsafe [12:38] Ubit Umarov: those are understandable [12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: A full mono install already pulls in a ton of stuff. MailKit only used MailMime as one extra thing in a using statement. [12:38] Ubit Umarov: but then a ton more [12:38] Ubit Umarov: and most windows only [12:38] Ubit Umarov: you see the same now on several packages outthere [12:39] Ubit Umarov: see ppl jumped using .net5 [12:39] Ubit Umarov: .net5 code [12:39] Ubit Umarov: then some of those libs are replaments of the .net4 ones, to suport that stupid code [12:39] Ubit Umarov: that does the same... [12:41] Ubit Umarov: well bet the nuget for mimekit [12:41] Ubit Umarov: for example [12:41] Ubit Umarov: and open it with 7z [12:41] Ubit Umarov: see what it has on .net4.6.1 [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: I was trying out mailkit as it was a core part of C# and not some third party library. It is for other than WIndows. I use Linux. If MailKit was Windows only it would be not good for me so I wouldn't have tried using it. [12:42] Ubit Umarov: mailkit is not part of .net [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: MailKit supports TLS amongst other things. I don't have the web browser running to check the other auth modes. [12:42] Ubit Umarov: they claim it runs on a lot f things [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: It was part of C#. [12:42] Ubit Umarov: no [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: It was in the MS docs. [12:42] Ubit Umarov: c# is system.net.mail [12:43] Ubit Umarov: or something [12:43] Ubit Umarov: well c# is a languague.. but we understand what you meant [12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to take care of RL, so have a great week everyone [12:44] Ubit Umarov: ohh i have aold version of mimekit [12:44] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: cya gavin [12:44] Ubit Umarov: done with simple .netframework code :) [12:45] Ubit Umarov: ofc possible fails on tls etc [12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get going. I'll turn off the chat logger.