Chat log from the meeting on 2019-04-30

[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:01] Bill Blight: Howdy Andrew [11:01] Telehub: Welcome back to, Dev Outreach, Andrew Hellershanks. [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin. Hello, Bill. [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: With only two people here I almost thought I was early. [11:02] Bill Blight: lol [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker and Selby. [11:03] Kayaker Magic: I logged onto the wrong grid and spend 5 minutes trying to figure out why I couldnt find the LM in inventory! [11:03] Bill Blight whispers: HAHA [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:03] Bill Blight: I did that today as well Kayaker [11:04] Kayaker Magic: The viewer has no way to display the grid name! [11:04] Bill Blight: although not trying to find LM, just spent time trying to figure out what happened to the sim [11:04] Bill Blight: then well [11:04] Bill Blight: yeah [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn can show it in the window title [11:05] Kayaker Magic: I have very similar regions in several grids and can't tell where I am by looking around. [11:06] Bill Blight: Not sure Ubit is going to make it today, last time I talked to him, he was not feeling well [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there he is [11:06] Bill Blight: and there he is [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Ubit [11:06] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:07] Bill Blight: Mention his name and he shows up [11:07] Bill Blight: see what I did there [11:07] Bill Blight: LOL [11:07] Bill Blight: Howdy Ubit [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit. [11:07] Bill Blight: Was not sure you were gonna make it [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure it wasn't an NCP you activated? [11:07] Bill Blight: HAHA [11:07] Bill Blight: we should clone Ubit [11:08] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, Check for listeners that are rezzing NPCs. ;) [11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: git clone [11:08] Bill Blight: HAHA [11:08] Ubit Umarov: so what's up docs? [11:09] Bill Blight: Make a clone of Ubit, call it, "Angry NPC" [11:09] Bill Blight: :P [11:09] Kayaker Magic: lol [11:09] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I keep wondering what happened to Sheera. When I try to TP to the grid she comes from I am unable to connect to it. [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Sandy. [11:10] Sandy Beachcomber: hi Andrew [11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah sometime since she did show up here :( [11:10] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, she made it to every dev meeting for ages! [11:10] Sandy Beachcomber: Kayaker [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Sandy [11:10] Bill Blight: I see her online once in a while [11:10] Bill Blight: I can get to metro,but not from osgrid [11:11] Bill Blight: most the time [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to the new or old metro? [11:11] Sandy Beachcomber: hi Bil, Gavin [11:11] Kayaker Magic: "can't get there from hers" lol [11:11] Kayaker Magic: *here [11:11] Bill Blight: never stayed long enough to tell, hahaha [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I have her in my friends list as coming from hypergrid.org [11:11] Sandy Beachcomber: hi ubit [11:11] Sandy Beachcomber: hi Selby [11:12] Bill Blight: most likely cached [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I presume the new Metro has a different HG address? [11:12] Bill Blight: hg.metro.land:80 [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thx [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think I've ever visited Metro grid. [11:12] Kayaker Magic: Metro died and was reborn? Selby did you report on this? [11:12] Bill Blight: hypergrid.org is metro or was [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, that could be why I can't TP there. [11:13] Ubit Umarov: they decided to "reset" all dbs [11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: no, Kayaker -- I didn't report [11:13] Ubit Umarov: and change rules [11:13] Bill Blight: strange [11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I let Metro do the talking [11:13] Bill Blight: I rebranded my grid without any issues [11:14] Bill Blight: issues with cached DNS on some grids still but that will clear eventually [11:14] Ubit Umarov: typical thats a 8 hours nightmare [11:15] Ubit Umarov: with standandar ttl times [11:15] Bill Blight: yep [11:15] Bill Blight: but some boxes seem to keep it forever [11:15] Bill Blight: unless you restart instances [11:15] Ubit Umarov: we had problems with a mono version that never did expire its cache [11:16] Bill Blight: yep, and many are still on old versions, terrified to upgrade [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: We should start a pool where we guess how long it will be before everyone has moved to 0.9 [11:17] Kayaker Magic: Over at Discovery Grid, they are trying to ban some people by IP address, getting that out of the logs. But we notice some strange things there. Where does Robust get the IP address of an avatar as they log in? [11:18] Bill Blight: I'll take 2027 for 100 [11:18] Kayaker Magic: Kitely will never switch to 0.9, not until hell freezes over. [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what comes first? - Everyone move off of XP or move to OS 0.9.x [11:18] Kayaker Magic: Now that is something worth betting on! [11:19] Sandy Beachcomber: why are they banning? [11:19] Kayaker Magic: Troublemakers, coppybotters. [11:19] Sandy Beachcomber: both those would use vpns to avoid it [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still using XP in a virtual machine. I only use it to run a 3D modelling program. I may have to update that at some point if I want to move up to the latest version of the modelling program. [11:20] Bill Blight: it gets the IP right from their connection info [11:20] Bill Blight: but VPN's have rolling IP's [11:20] Ubit Umarov: not sure there is a point to still run XP ( ie ignoring new version cost ) [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: VPNs or non-static IP addresses. It would be better to try checking for the MAC address but that has its issues too. [11:20] Bill Blight: better to block by hashed mach [11:20] Bill Blight: .9x can block by hashed mac [11:21] Ubit Umarov: i actually did not test on older hardward but it seems win10 is still forgiving to old hardware [11:21] Kayaker Magic: We see a lot of 127.0.0.1 from people HGing in from outworldz and DreamGrid, are those sim-on-a-sticks? [11:21] Bill Blight: which is unique to each viewer install [11:21] Bill Blight: yes [11:21] Bill Blight: and badly configured [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that is part of it. I don't fee like paying M$ about 120 or so to get latest Windows for a virtual environment I don't use that often. [11:22] Kayaker Magic: How do we detect the hashed mac Bill? [11:22] Bill Blight: I actually blocked outworldz.net on my grid [11:22] Bill Blight: it is in the logs [11:22] Bill Blight: on the connection when they login [11:22] Bill Blight: you can only block it on Robust [11:22] Ubit Umarov: robust tries to get the ip from the http headers [11:22] Bill Blight: using .9x that is [11:24] Kayaker Magic: That sounds like a good approach, I'll tell them to look into it! [11:25] Bill Blight: it works till they change machines or use a diff viewer [11:25] Ubit Umarov: guess grids using a proxy need to mk sure it does not mess those headers badly [11:25] Bill Blight: but still a bit better than by IP [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Right [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: What else is new and/or exciting? Any new bug fixes or features to mention? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: been off last week :( [11:27] Bill Blight: I put that patch up on the mantis, [11:27] Bill Blight: not really a feature but a tweak [11:27] Kayaker Magic whispers: I'll have to work harder on coming up with more questions before next week! [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Kayaker. [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Bill had an idea for which he has filed a mantis. [11:28] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8523 [11:28] Ubit Umarov: but some feedback on the lludp changes, VOC,  regions visibility by avatar position etc are welcome [11:29] Bill Blight: Yeah seems only Ubit and I discuss those changes other than anecdotal complaints [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I've been busy fixing a crashy 64-bit macOS viewer which turned out to be an obscure issue in a header. [11:29] Ubit Umarov: hmm the npc account type is already hardwired [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: That has been holding back a new build of the Windows version, but any day now [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been busy on some embedded system work and getting ready for a product demo on Thursday so I haven't had much time to do any OS related work. The pressure should be off after Thursday and I'll have more time for OS stuff once more. [11:30] Bill Blight: yes this adds a configureable setting [11:30] Ubit Umarov: and in not in the mood of lettinh it configurable really [11:30] Bill Blight: okies [11:30] Ubit Umarov: the idea is to FLAG a avatar all the time [11:30] Ubit Umarov: i mean a NPC [11:31] Bill Blight: sure I get that, but for translation purposes, is what I was mainly thinking [11:31] Ubit Umarov: other users must have the right to see it is a avatar in a easy why [11:31] Ubit Umarov: way [11:31] Bill Blight: then maybe change the hardcode to just NPC rather than Non Player Character [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: The spot where it states it is an NPC is often overlooked so you can have fun with people by filling in a lot of the the rest of the information in the profile dialog boxes. :) [11:31] Ubit Umarov: yeah but if that is configurable you will see "Grid Manager" and things like that soon :) [11:31] Bill Blight: yes [11:32] Bill Blight: who cares [11:32] Bill Blight: it's an NPC not gonna do much [11:32] Bill Blight: LOL [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I've seen a few other items popping up in that spot of the dialogs. [11:32] Bill Blight: They can call it "Master of the Universe" and still not going to hurt anything [11:33] Bill Blight: but I see your point Ubit [11:33] Ubit Umarov: npcs can mess up one inworld experience [11:33] Kayaker Magic: Bill: Why did you find it necessary to block outworldz.net? [11:33] Ubit Umarov: if one is looking for human presence, and gets a npc... [11:34] Bill Blight: over 50% of the people that show up from outworldz are using copybot viewers just there to rip crap .. [11:34] Ubit Umarov: well whatever.. the a account is a NPC accout .. [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: NPCs put a green dot on the map so it is possible one could find an NPC while looking for real people who are in-world. [11:35] Bill Blight: Not to mention, a badly configured "Grid" from a home connection is just annoying watching it take 7 years and a day to transfer assets [11:35] Ubit Umarov: ( well you also know i don't like NPCs :p ) [11:35] Ubit Umarov: btw may take them aout of stats, minimap.. etc [11:36] Bill Blight: woot [11:36] Bill Blight: I hope you do [11:36] Ubit Umarov: well stats at least [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm ok with taking them out of stats. [11:37] Bill Blight: many people use NPC's to show their regions busier than they are [11:37] Ubit Umarov: thats a non sense [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: For some role play or themed regions NPCs can be useful and worth having them show on the map. [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like the good old campers in SL [11:38] Ubit Umarov: many ppl looks for humans to interact with [11:38] Ubit Umarov: finding its all npcs.. is damm bad [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Another option would require viewer change to have NPCs show on the maps with a different coloured dot. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: specially those silly overclever npcs [11:38] Kayaker Magic: Wouldn't that require a viewer change [11:38] Kayaker Magic: ? [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that's what he said :-)) [11:39] Kayaker Magic: LOL [11:39] Ubit Umarov: guess more Selby.Evans bies are this kinda of effects of the use of NPCs :) [11:39] Kayaker Magic: How goes the work on the OpenSim specific viewer? [11:39] Ubit Umarov: err selby.Evans area... [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: That might be a better way to handle it. If someone doesn't want to see NPCs when looking for people they could exclude them from the maps. [11:40] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I need NPCs for some of the things I do [11:40] Ubit Umarov: sure there are nice usage cases [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I think it may be on hold, or just very slow progress. I haven't heard of anything related to it for some time. [11:40] Bill Blight: maybe when the sense_as_agent flag is false they don't show on the map [11:41] Ubit Umarov: here is even terrible.. [11:41] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am experimenting with fiction in opensim places -- [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: I know of someone making a region based on Victorian London. One of the plans for the region is to use Bobbies patrolling the streets. NPCs would be used for the Bobbies. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: you go swim thinking there is a lifeguard.. and it is after all a NPC that even can't swim!!! [11:41] Bill Blight: HAHAHA [11:41] Sandy Beachcomber: lmao [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they would be as stupid as the real Bobbies [11:42] Ubit Umarov: see how NPCs can be so dangereus ? :) [11:42] Bill Blight: HAHA [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Lifeguard on duty? Not. :) [11:42] Bill Blight: I think Ubit has an NPC Phobia [11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: putting a story in a 3d place cuts out all the scene description [11:43] Sandy Beachcomber: he met one of my bots [11:43] Ubit Umarov: well i seen them killing irc channels in the old irc days [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only if the scene will rezz [11:43] Sandy Beachcomber: i was testing its tp abilities [11:43] Bill Blight: He's just mad that the bartender here will not go out with him [11:44] Ubit Umarov: many ppl came here looking for other ppl to talk 2 [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: I wrote a Perl based bot for a text based world one time and now and then someone would talk to it not realizing it wasn't a real person. [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that poor bartender must suffer from ADHD [11:44] Kayaker Magic: Turing test! PASSED! [11:44] Ubit Umarov: ok a bartender that can't serve even a glass of water [11:44] Bill Blight: she does what she gets paid for, which is ZERO [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:45] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:45] Ubit Umarov: worse.. jumps to the bar making us think we are going to get a nice strip dance.. and ... nothing.. grrr [11:45] Bill Blight: HAHA [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: coyote ugly. :) [11:46] Bill Blight: I'll make that happen for you Ubit, although might have to change the rating of the sim [11:46] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: You also need to add a male bartender [11:46] Sandy Beachcomber: use one of mine [11:46] Sandy Beachcomber: it can follow him across the grid [11:46] Ubit Umarov: male?? well not for me thx :p [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: just trying to show we are equal opportunity NPC users. :) [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to have all 46 genders - or how many it is these days... [11:48] Sandy Beachcomber: and then all thereligons [11:48] Ubit Umarov: well back to opensim [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... Just seeing the NPC getting off the pose ball and how it jumps in to the air that is something I've been wondering about. I thought at one point we were able to get up off a pose ball without doing that jump in to the air thing. [11:48] Ubit Umarov: did you played with the new lludp, voc etc? [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: How easy would it be to fix that? [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not yey [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yet [11:50] Kayaker Magic: Bill: The admin at Discovery Grid says he detects NPCs by their ServerURI, which is blank. [11:50] Kayaker Magic: There is a common problem with where avatars land when they unsit. [11:51] Kayaker Magic: Here, I end up on the bar on an unsit. [11:51] Kayaker Magic: (sorry, no strip show) [11:51] Kayaker Magic: It would be nice to have a way for the sit script to specify an exit location. [11:51] Bill Blight: and the stand here is a bit more mild than in actual stock master [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I do the same. I think it has to do with standing up in place and it tries to place the avatar on top of the object occupying the same space. [11:52] Kayaker Magic: There used to be a way to do that in 0.8, an undocumented feature, but it went away in 0.9 :( [11:52] Ubit Umarov: we can't probe the unsit positions [11:52] Bill Blight: not really Kayaker, it is physics engine avatar placement and rocket science [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... an unsit offset perhaps. [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I tested a hug script from SL that use llMoveToTarget to move the avatars in position before the animation, and it had some very interesting effects on them. Usually they overshot the target by a couple meters before bounding back and colliding so one started to fly [11:53] Ubit Umarov: 0.9 may have a little higher jump [11:53] Bill Blight: (meaning if you unsit and it puts you in the ground you launch like a rocket) [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyone tried something simmilar? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: bc not rezzing a avatar overlapping terrain or a object was a sling shot to the moon [11:53] Bill Blight: yep [11:54] Ubit Umarov: ubode not is more gently on that... [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that is an idea for scripted sit/unsit to change position first on the unsit. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: is now [11:54] Kayaker Magic: In 0.8 you could sit the avatar behind the chair, then move them to the position on the chair. On an unsit they returned to where the llSitTarget was behind the chair. [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I would think you could still do that in 0.9 [11:54] Ubit Umarov: guess the bartenter is overlapping the bar and ubode is pushing her nicely up [11:55] Kayaker Magic: I haven't tried it recently..... [11:55] Bill Blight: you mean like this [11:55] Ubit Umarov: there are no good solutions now [11:55] Ubit Umarov: leaving cars etc etc [11:56] Ubit Umarov: we can make a case look ok.. other well not really :) [11:56] Ubit Umarov: the little jump can be retunned [11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( but there are cases where even ubode is not gentle :( [11:57] Ubit Umarov: and you will stanup straight into mars :p [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Another hour is almost up. Any other last minute items before we start heading out to do other things? [11:58] Ubit Umarov: ( well and miss mars.. ) [11:58] Bill Blight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98qw86DsdZ0 [11:59] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further, that will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.