Chat log from the meeting on 2011-07-12

[10:03] Dutchy Daredevil is Online [10:04] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol [10:04] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Reticulation/73/53/22 [10:04] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details. [10:04] Penny Lane: Juntin! /waves [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: guess im not that suprised [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [10:04] Penny Lane: lol Justin :-) [10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon do you still have the webpage with wright stats, traffic etc. [10:04]  Bri Hasp: greet JCC [10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: bandwidth [10:04]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Hi justin [10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [10:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus hmm [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey hurriedly puts a shirt on [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey folks [10:05]  Dutchy Daredevil: hello all [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi penny, long time no see [10:05]  Richardus Raymaker: try to figure out wharts really needed for bandwidth [10:05]  Bri Hasp: no porn Sir [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: http://plaza02.osgrid.org/munin/osgrid.org/plaza02.osgrid.org.html [10:05]  Penny Lane: Justin: your blog post about Opensim licensing made my day yesterday. I was over the moon, as were tons of other people in AW Groupies [10:05]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Justin - are you going to make a Google+ profile? [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, one way or another we're going to get rid of the 6 month thing [10:06] Penny Lane: Fantastic nes. [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: looks like wright needs 8MByte [10:06] Penny Lane frowns at the keyboard [10:06] Bri Hasp: really? [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: probably - I keep getting invites so I guess I'll buckle eventually :) [10:07]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol [10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: its Mbit Richardus [10:07]  Richardus Raymaker: oops 8Mbit [10:07]  Penny Lane: JCC: don't bother, it's really slumming it. :-) [10:07] Raymond Lee: thx Dutchy [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: thats not bad nebadon. [10:07] Sarah Kline: hi all [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: thats pretty good news [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: I dont see it actually going that high though [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah [10:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: thank you bluewall for the google+ post reminder :) [10:08]  Raymond Lee: Hello everybody :) [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah [10:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: hehe [10:08] dan banner: hi everyone [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dan [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: everyone just getting here [10:08] Sarah Kline: hi again dan [10:08] Bri Hasp: Justin to keep viewer 1 users from torment.. is there a method to block viewer 1 at region level? [10:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: they will probably kill the account eventually [10:08] Raymond Lee: Hey Dan, Sarah [10:08] Penny Lane: I'm only there on G+ to see which way Google goes with banning pseudonyms. I don't really expect anything good from them. Like others have said "Google doesn't get social". [10:08] Andrew Hellershanks: What is a Google+ profile compared to a Google profile? [10:08] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yes i wou;dnt doubt it [10:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: not right now [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: My virtual and real identities are identical anyway, so I don't have that problem [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:09] Bri Hasp: the have a garbage experience as you know, 3D, mesh, moap, shadows etc no capable. [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i was using my real name on google+ but decided to change it to my avatar name [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: see how google reacts [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: sounds like google folows facebook [10:09] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: have they put any official word about that yet? [10:09] Sarah Kline: well Bri if they see, then they will change to V2 maybe [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: it seems like the are moving towards not allowing avatar names [10:10] Bri Hasp: to me ismore a Twitter on steroids [10:10] Penny Lane: Andrew: It's still being figured out. Quite a few people have been banned because their G+ profile is not RL, but apparently there's a dispute within Google, and it's not enforced except by a few hard liners [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: but so far ive not actually seen anyone have their account locked [10:10] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: we should get Tom on our side! [10:10] Penny Lane: Several, Neb [10:10] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive heard some people have [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont know anyone [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i know i havent yet [10:10] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i really like g+, i'd still use it even if they forced me to use my real name. i just wouln't use it as much, or be able to add as many people [10:10] Penny Lane: Our friend Opensource Obscure is one. [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: what i heard was [10:11] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: but yeah sorry its opensim time not g+ time [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: they were going to allow it [10:11]  Penny Lane: Good point Sin [10:11] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that'd be so sweet. [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: but if you change your name constantly your account wil get locked [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: that you have to pick a name and stick with it [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but ive heard all kinds of stuff going in both directions [10:11] Penny Lane: Hi Dutchy :-) [10:12]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I like the looks of it for something like groups. [10:12]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: maybe it will bomb na dthey will opensource it like wave [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:12]  Raymond Lee: I have a question about OSSL if it's appropriate to ask here? [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont see it totally bombing like wave [10:13]  Penny Lane: For a while I thought we might be able to use G+ for Opensim group chat, nicely interoperable beteen worlds, once it has an API. [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: its already way more popular than wave was [10:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: plaese go ahead [10:13]  Richardus Raymaker: but for how long, i heared the blocked the translator stuff more to [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Translator API is going to be shut down in October [10:13]  Raymond Lee: Specifically about collisions and combat support - is this developed as far as it's going to go? [10:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Just looked at the website. Google+ looks a bit like some of the other social networking sites. Nothing there of interest for me. [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: its already crippled now until then [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: you can only make like 100 requests per 24 hours right now [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: then it stops answering [10:14] Andrew Hellershanks: No more free translations? I wonder how many translator devices will break. [10:14] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oh THATS why my imprudence translator stops working [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: well no more API [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: the website will still work [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: just apps wont be able to access the free api anymore [10:14] dan banner: yes sinseer i've had to change IP to fix it [10:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: not necessarily, but further development does depend on people contributing code [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly there was wide scale abuse, and it was a major drain on resources and money [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: thats what google is claiming [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt it wasnt making them any money [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: by forcing you to the website they can atleast do google ads [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: offset some of the costs [10:15] dan banner: true [10:16] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: would be cool to make some api for combat, etc. [10:17]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i would LOV emore combat features (and fixed bots so i could blast them outta the sky) that'd be soooooo sweet. [10:17] Raymond Lee: Thanks, Justin - I'm thinking of getting into the collision to put something like havok's collision detection in there [10:17] Raymond Lee: I'm having probs with fast bullets passing the targets [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: actually using havok as a physics engine? [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: fyi, intel are working on a physics engine using bullet rather than ode [10:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: another issue seems to be the avatar capsule size and shape [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know if that would affect things [10:17] Raymond Lee: Not actually havok, but putting something resembling that solution in the collision part [10:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I have had that with arrows [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think it would actually be part of the physics engine [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: it would just be a layer that passes the information to the physics engine [10:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: with that being said - we need the raytrace thing [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: llCastRay? [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: that would be nice to have [10:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: yea [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: then you can do laser pointers and stuff [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: laser scope [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: what is that used for, general scripting? [10:19] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oooooooo that sounds awesome [10:19] Bri Hasp: take cre that you are looking at Havok not LL Havok [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: would be good for weapons [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: it allows you to basically do what a laser does [10:19] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: point it at something and it returns coordinates of what its hitting [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: right [10:19] Raymond Lee: The idea they have is to follow a physical object with a phantom that is sized proportionally to the object's velocity that'd detect objects that it's passed through [10:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: that would be better than collision [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:20]  Raymond Lee: then pop it back on a ricochet course [10:21] Raymond Lee: Not sure if we're allowed to use the physx engine as well, are we? [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: there is no support for physx [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: license wise it should be fine [10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I think you would need physcis engine support for that [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: Havok is pretty much out of the question [10:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the bullet work that Intel is doing should help. [10:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I'm not sure what the differences are between Bluuet and ODE though [10:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: *Bullet [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: Intel owns Havok and they cant even use it without purchasing the license [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: which is very expensive [10:23] Raymond Lee: yeah, I know havok is out - kjust speculating on what we'd need to replicate from their idea - chinese wall style? [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: even then we would not be able to distirbute anything related to havok in our source code [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not a physics expert so I can't help much [10:23] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: me neither, i just wanna shoot stuff [10:24] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: alot. hmmm. that cant be healthy. [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: Raymond their is no source code available from Havok unless you spend a lot of money [10:24] Raymond Lee: Me too - plus I wanna see some boobies bnounce. . . [10:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol [10:24] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: they already bounce! [10:24] Richardus Raymaker: use the right viewer ^^ [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats already done [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats not simulator physics [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: its viewer physics [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would be way overkill for the simulator to also do avatar physics [10:24] Raymond Lee: I only want to replicate the idea using OS framework [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: it should already work in OpenSimulator Raymond [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: those functions are all viewer side [10:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Are the lighting changes in viewer 2 yet? LL was showing off a demo of new lighting back when they started talking about mesh support. [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: yes Andrew [10:25] Raymond Lee: And I'm gonna be getting my g/fs into OS since I know they can wobble the way I like here as well ;) [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: lighting is crazy different in V2 [10:26]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the windlight [10:26]  Bri Hasp: sighs :( [10:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ok. I'll have to check that out sometime. [10:26] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: that is just in a separate viewer, right? [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.onikenkon.com/screenshots/480_light_sources.png [10:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, AH, ok. I didn't know that is the name for it. I had heard of it. [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: thats still just 1 thing i really like from V2 more lights [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.onikenkon.com/screenshots/mesh_test_071.png [10:27] Richardus Raymaker: glow im still not so happy with [10:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: there is a difference in the lights [10:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the windlight, though - that is the atmospneric / environment [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: you can also do projectors too [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: which is awesome [10:27] Raymond Lee: Hey! Am I double-posting at all? [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.onikenkon.com/screenshots/mesh_test_006.png [10:27] Sarah Kline: the new lighting in SL will be a mess...given all the light sources in builds and avatars [10:28] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: heh, 800 face lights [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: no [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Sarah, well the way it works now the viewer will only render as many light sources as the hardware can handle [10:28] Raymond Lee: Ok, thanks - that's been solved by OS and Imprudence, then [10:28] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: eyes nebs fancy magic hud [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: and we already have ability to disable face lights in a simulator [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: that hud is in SL [10:29]  Bri Hasp: I'm using JCC master form yesterday and Viewer 2 on OSg happy with it all [10:29] Sarah Kline: well its SL problem not ours anyway [10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: good - you're using mesh? [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya I am sure there will be all kinds of new problems with V2 [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: but the lighting system in V2 is not new [10:30] Bri Hasp: Shadows and detail are improved [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: its been there since the day V2 came out pretty much [10:30] Bri Hasp: yep.. wish people would just adapt and move on [10:30] Sarah Kline: well the mesh viewer was the first to have really decent stuff [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya, its improved alot since V2 came out [10:31] Richardus Raymaker: waiting for the right gui bri in viewer. [10:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I think they just exposed it more in the mesh beta [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the scales are tipping [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: most of the major issues with V2 anymore are all UI issues [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: the engine is pretty solid [10:31] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: still only two v2 viewers that do mesh, right? [10:31] Bri Hasp: UI is more familiarity me thinks [10:31] Sarah Kline: yes [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont mind V2 that much anymore [10:31] Us Vemo: dd50 [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure tpvs can improve the ui [10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: at 1st it was a major shock, but ive come to live with it [10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i coul dprobably get used to it, if they put an ao into it [10:32]  Sarah Kline: I am forcing myself to use firestorm there and am slowly getting used to it [10:32]  Richardus Raymaker: i tried V2 viewer a few timnes. but some things you cannot open dpouble in kirsten as example. so thats bad [10:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: if they could detach the windows, that would make a difference [10:32] Sarah Kline: its a shock to come backto 1.23 [10:32] Bri Hasp: Kirsten or LL mesah are the only choices [10:32] Bri Hasp: mesh^ [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: I think you can detach most windows now Bluewall [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: even side bar [10:32] Richardus Raymaker: the sidebar is the biggest dont use reason i think [10:32] Sarah Kline: at the moment yes Bri [10:32] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah i got kirstens viewer the other day - gonna try some of my garbage-beginner meshs i made soon [10:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: they let you detache the side bar - but it would be nice to be able to drag them outside of the viewer window [10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald is Online [10:33] Sarah Kline: Richard the TPV's have killed that [10:33] Richardus Raymaker: i know, but thats where we waiting for [10:33] Richardus Raymaker: and thats why nobody can move on.. [10:33] Sarah Kline: firestorm has brought back Pie menus lol! [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya its just a matter of time now before the TPVs are all pushing V2 interfaces [10:33] Penny Lane: You don't have to suffer the V2 UI. Firestorm has made it go away completely (if you choose) [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: which will be a good thing [10:33] Bri Hasp: yep [10:34] Richardus Raymaker: but, neve rfound a 64bit firestorm [10:34] Sarah Kline: Kokura will follow [10:34] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: hmmmm that's sweet, if they put mesh into firestorm i'd try that [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya there was even talk that Kokua might use the Firestorm source code as its base [10:34] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: so, I wonder if the LL windlight implementation is the same as the Lightshare one?? [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: since its so far along already [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i am not sure if they ever fully decided on that or not [10:34] Sarah Kline: its not sadly [10:34] Penny Lane: Neb: that would be very cool. Everyone reinventing the whole wheel makes little sense. [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: but it was brought up a few weeks back [10:35] Sarah Kline: Phoenix have own version of it [10:35]  Sarah Kline: but not as good as lightshare imo [10:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Lightshare missed the mark on the variables [10:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, moving windows outside the main one might be handy but based on what I hear over at the GIMP project, Windows users prefer a single window interface (or can't handle a multiple window one, maybe because it just looks different from what they are used to) [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: it would have been nice if they made it an asset type [10:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: they don't seem to convert too well [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: so people could share/sell lightshare settings [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: sort of like a notecard or something [10:36] Sarah Kline: I think that is the Pheonix thing [10:36] Sarah Kline: you can trade cards [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: thats cool [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: thats how it should be [10:37]  Richardus Raymaker: for gimp a single window works a bit more easy in my view. but seperate windows work fine to [10:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Neb, there is an asset type in some viewers that write them to a notecard [10:37] Raymond Lee: the gimp is a prob because the toolsets don't minimise at all [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:37] Richardus Raymaker: but SL is not gimp [10:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: but, the format is different from lightshare [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ah [10:37]  Sarah Kline: yes [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: well as long as it translates it [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to have a standardized format though [10:37] Sarah Kline: never tried [10:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: we will probably need to rip out lightshare and replace it [10:37]  Sarah Kline: yes it would [10:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I've been using GIMP for well over 10 years and never thought twice about the MDI layout of GIMP. [10:37] Raymond Lee: richardus: they're both UIs [10:38] Richardus Raymaker: i use gimp more to. and it works fine [10:38] Richardus Raymaker: but used paint shop pro to [10:38]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Kat Berry did the notecard saving version [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: is she still working on SL stuff? [10:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: not sure [10:39] Richardus Raymaker: but the SL2 gui you never know where things are. symbols dont say enough. besides you cant open more profiles. maby now you can [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: havent spoken to her in ages [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: you used to? [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya we spoke a few times [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: mostly in the Imprudence channel [10:40] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: but, when we get the CLA strightened out, she might help us with that [10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues today? [10:41] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i have had no new issues personally! [10:41] Raymond Lee: is there an estimated shcedule for the next release? [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid release or OpenSimulator Release? [10:41] Raymond Lee: opensim [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: no [10:42]  Raymond Lee: k [10:42]  Bri Hasp: I notice a lot of cloud Av on mesh viewers and enabled instances [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm anticipating next couple of months. I would like to wait until mesh has been deployed on the ll grid [10:42] Bri Hasp: have to work hard to clear them [10:42] Bri Hasp: ' [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: so that it's not going to change again underneath [10:42] Us Vemo: is there somebody working on the physics or grid crossings right now? [10:42] Bri Hasp: kk [10:42]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [10:42] Sarah Kline: lol yes [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: there are several people wokring on new physics Us Vemo [10:43] Bri Hasp: we used to... now use mega [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: us: intel are working on bullet. I don't think anybody is actively working on grid crossings. They seem pretty okay to me right now, though it's hard to tell when machines are hosted in different places [10:43] Us Vemo: can you give me their names please? [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: mega? [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: Crista/Diva is on vacation at the moment so HG development has been slow to none [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: probably pick up again before the end of the month [10:43] Bri Hasp: yep crosses are a big issue for sailing [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: Us Vemo, most of the new physics work is being done by Intel [10:43] Us Vemo: i mean no script resets at crossings and full state saves [10:44] Dahlia Trimble: hi [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: us: I though tthat was configurable [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [10:44] Sarah Kline: hi dahlia [10:44] Bri Hasp: but mega pushed crosses off our list [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: Us Vemo, unfortunatly some of that is very unsafe in an open grid [10:44] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [10:44] Raymond Lee: justin: Is there a min-thingy for intel's bullet work? Like something that says what they're hoping to do? [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: state save should be ok [10:44]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the best bet for vehicles crossing is a non-phys mover [10:44] Penny Lane waves at Dahlia [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: and likely will never be fully available accross HG and Open Grids [10:44] Us Vemo: but it should be in the in the standard config to allow flying and sailing [10:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Hi Dahlia [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: in the mialing list, I think [10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: us: you're talking about the AllowScriptCrossing setting? [10:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Us: the sim can't pass physics sessions [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: yet anyway [10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: there's a different bewteene script state saving and binary passing, I believe [10:45] Us Vemo: i am not sure at this moment... but there are some issues with simcrossings and scripts resetting [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: physics is more doable than scripting [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:45]  Sarah Kline: real megas would be a better solution [10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: binary passing is always completely unsafe, but state save/load hsould be fine [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: but the harsh part is the binary [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: state is nice, but wont improve performance really [10:46] Bri Hasp: Aurora [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: us: make sure you have AllowScriptCrossing = true in [Startup] for both source and destination regions [10:46] Us Vemo: oh it does... [10:46] Us Vemo: ok [10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, performance is just one part of it [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:46]  Us Vemo: i will try that [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: when your talking about vehicles though [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yes, I believe they have a variable sized regio nimplementation [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats very important [10:47] Bri Hasp: I have on as a standalone [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: the only way its gonna ever work in a open grid like OSgrid is will need to be able to establish a trust list or something [10:47] Sarah Kline: yes its huge I had a 2048x2048m region lol [10:47] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought the .ini said there could be potential problems allowing script crossing. [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: even then its risky [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: if so, there's nothing there right now [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: works well? [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: script binaries yes Andrew [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: passing state should be relateively benign [10:47] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I wonder about the sandbox in the thing that Adam did? [10:47] Bri Hasp: well it shows promise [10:48] Us Vemo: anybody besides intel working on physics [10:48] Raymond Lee: Just as a quick admin aside - implementing 0.7.2, do I just swap out the old bin folder for the new one? [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding about physics is thats passed as part of the prim property [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: i know melanie knows a good deal about that [10:48] Bri Hasp: it needs a special viewer as well [10:48] Us Vemo: yes physics is working better in Avination [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling Avination has that worked out [10:49] Us Vemo: not sure what she as done there [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: i remember speaking to melanie about it [10:49]  Sarah Kline: will they tell us? [10:49] Us Vemo: ohh what did she say [10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yeah. hopefully it will spread to other viewers [10:49] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol, doubtful [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: it was long while back, but if i recall it was something about having to figure out the packet load [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: and that LL had not documented any of it [10:49]  Us Vemo: ok [10:50]  Us Vemo: hmm [10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: No, the best approach is to configure a separate 0.7.2 dev version, and manually port over any config settings you have [10:50] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: fatpacks? [10:50] Penny Lane is shocked! LL not documenting stuff? [10:50] Dahlia Trimble: what physics issue are you discussing? [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i can ask her again, generally melanie is willing to eventually share all that stuff they do [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: but she is very busy [10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: nothing specific [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: and its not always easy for her to pick out certain changes without many hours of work [10:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, There is one directory you will probably want to copy from the old to the new if you need to preserve object/script states [10:50] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: sim border crossings: Dahlia [10:50] Us Vemo: well i have my animals flying in avination with physics [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: and generally her group has a 6 month grace [10:50] xstorm Radek is Online [10:51] Us Vemo: thats was so simple [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: where they dont commit drastic changes like that to core for atleast 6 months [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: to sorta give them an edge over the other grids [10:51] Raymond Lee: Andrew: assets, right? [10:51] Sarah Kline: dont they use the xmrs engine from M7? [10:51] Us Vemo: ok... well it worked like 4 months ago [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't mind what people do, as long as they don't block anything happening in opensim [10:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I guess that was the "fatpack" work that came into core about 3 months ago [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so Sarah [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: they have thier own stuff [10:51] Sarah Kline: ok [10:51]  Us Vemo: exacttly my view Justin [10:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I suppose they extended it to carry the physics sessions too [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: Avination is way more advanced that M7 ever was [10:52] Us Vemo: sim crossings are bad there... but physics is ok... with one exception [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant remember exactly what Melanie Said now bluewall [10:52] Us Vemo: not allowed with physics and fantom.... [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: but it was a matter of figuring out the packet load [10:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I remember discussion about that work leading up to physics crossings [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: and how to interpret the physics data from prim properties [10:52] Us Vemo: yes [10:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, not assets. I'd have to look at my grid to remember which one. [10:54] Us Vemo: it is important to be able to use physics movement with a fantom object, Melanie said that it would be hard work to implement that for som reason i dont understand [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: I dont know about packet load, maybe its something else. Megaregions are like huge regions that look like groups of regions to a normal viewer, so it would seem they would have packet load issues too then [10:54] Raymond Lee: Ok, when you can, Andrew, but I'll be trying out a few test imps to see what works and what doesn't anyway. . . [10:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, ScriptEngines directory to preserve state of scripted items. [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: well there is no real border cross in a mega region though Dahlia [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: but there is [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: when you cross a border there is no comms for that [10:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: all the movement in a megaregion are projected from the root region [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: not to physics though [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: megaregions are a huge hack :) [10:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, what version were you running before? [10:54]  Dahlia Trimble: the viewer has to be told its switching to a new region [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its not\ [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats the thing [10:55]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I talked to Mic about doding the same thing with regular regions for crossings [10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: and new comm channels have to be openes [10:55]  Raymond Lee: 0.7.1.1 [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: in a mega region its not switching to a new region [10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: opened [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: your always in the SW region [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: no matter how far you go [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what the viewer thinks [10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: but the viewer doesnt know that [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: you can not access parcel data outside of the SW region [10:55] Sarah Kline: the child thing is a real problem though [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: man [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: like say you cross the region border from SW region in a mega, it does not get new parcel data [10:56] Sarah Kline: agent [10:56] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: you can't set media, etc. [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: right [10:56] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: only in the root region [10:56] Dahlia Trimble: not sure it does in regular regions either, they just swap from child agents to regular agents. the comms have already been opened [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: and your always a root agent [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: in the SW region no matter where you are [10:56] Us Vemo: does anyone have a link to some reading about intels work on bullet? [10:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: and if you teleport in, you might get slammed back to the root [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think there is anything Us Vemo [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: us: try looking through the opensim-dev mailing list [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: the documentation is in the source code [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is a email on mailing list [10:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: 14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: cmickeyb bulletsim * r1f3e42adf37c /prebuild.xml: 14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: reorder bulletsim and convex decomposition projects in prebuild.xml. seems 14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: to fix the build on mono/linux. [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: but it doesnt say much [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: us: or speak to them on irc - there really isn't a lot of external doc [10:57] Us Vemo: ok thanks [10:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: that was posted just a little while ago in IRC [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: I have no scripts on my avatar and my region crossings can be quite fast [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: I think bulletsim has a ways to go yet [10:57] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: any chance on another look at bot appearance soon? (it's okay to say no!) [10:57] Us Vemo: what channel? [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: on IRC in opensim-dev look for > dslake, cmickeyb, and radams or radams1 [10:58] Us Vemo: great thanks [10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: david in opensim-users actually asked about that today. Going to reply to him later on. Maybe we can even get some resource on it [10:58] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: yeah, crossings are not bad [10:58] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: OOooOOoooOOOoo sounds good! [10:58] Raymond Lee: thx, neb [10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: otherwise I'm still slowly working on it, currently laying some regression test framework [10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: but it's not high priority [10:58] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oh yeah, understandable [10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: for me, unfortunately, other things press [10:58] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i'm just bloodthirsty [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: :) [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:59]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: once i realized bots had health too [10:59]  Us Vemo: Justin what are you working on right now? [10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: opensim-wise or generally? [10:59]  Us Vemo: well both actually [11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: recently I've been working on mesh issues, because that's quite a big thing with education, serious use people [11:00]  Us Vemo: yes [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: that and it keeps me from whining to much [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:00]  Us Vemo: lol [11:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: hehe [11:00]  Sarah Kline: ) [11:00] Raymond Lee: *chuckle* [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: still want to sort out memory usage there. other than that, I need to get experience with big grid issues [11:00] Dahlia Trimble: Ive seen you poking around in Meshmerizer >.> [11:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: justin - any eta on the CLA? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya Dahlia, we got alot of the physics mesh issues worked out [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, Justing: On IRC you were talking about whether mesh would make sculpties go away. Probably not for a while. The difference in upload cost will be an issue for some people. [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: Actively pursuing it at the moment - currently waiting for Ben to get back on an e-mail [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: all those problems i had are no longer a problem [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: things are working pretty good [11:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: thanks for working on that [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: what was the problem nebadon? [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: believe me, it can be a real pain in the arse. These issues always are [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: you can even resize a mesh now and its updates the physics [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: Justin can explain that better Dahlia [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:02] Us Vemo: thats great [11:02] Sarah Kline: at the moment there is an issue that scuplts use less prims than the same thing made in mesh [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah, I fixed up a few issues with meshes. Still need to make sure there isn't a memory leak [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: that might be so Sarah [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: but [11:02] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that's... a little... strange isn't it? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: you can only texture 1 face of a sculpty [11:02] Us Vemo: but that is not on issue here is it? [11:02] Sarah Kline: in SL ^^ [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: where a mesh can texture 8 faces [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. How is the prim cost for a mesh calculated? [11:02] Sarah Kline: PE [11:02]  Sarah Kline: whatever that is sorry dont know [11:02] Dahlia Trimble: there may be a memory leak when meshes are resized, but thats true for any prim or sculpt too [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: well a basic cube with no texture costs 150L$ [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: its kind of odd how they calculate cost [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: generally speaking, I need to get some work. Talking with a few people but nothing long term yet [11:03] Dahlia Trimble: cost is a LL issue [11:03] Us Vemo: thats just stupid [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: but i imagine they are still working it out [11:03] Dahlia Trimble: not opensim [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: 150? They've upped the cost. Originally they were saying it was going to be L$100 [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: well [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it might be that Andrew [11:03] Sarah Kline: yes we will benifit from mesh [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: nothing is final [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: this was on the LL beta grid using fake money [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: they still have much to do [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: ppl might want a resource cost thing in opensim but I don't know when that would happen [11:04] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah you guys have to perfect that, i just reinstalled my 3dsmax [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i did notice that yesterdays Mesh development viewer [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not top of my list of interests, for instance [11:04] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: (kidding, it's awesome so far) [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: the upload window changed once again [11:04] Sarah Kline: yes...its not august yet [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: but it still is functional in opensim [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: :) [11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, what sort of resource cost thing? [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: they have a bit more data now about costs [11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: for uploading a mesh [11:04]  Us Vemo: have you seen this blogpost: http://sorornishi.blogspot.com/2011/07/death-of-mesh.html [11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: AH, right. [11:04]  Sarah Kline: hahah I saw that today [11:04]  Us Vemo: i dont know if she is correct [11:04]  Raymond Lee: Is there a money framework somewhere we can bolt onto our standalone regions a fiddle with? [11:05]  Sarah Kline: shes upset she cant make trees [11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: their costs are also based on their implementation costs, which also dont apply to OpenSIm [11:05]  Us Vemo: i have done some scripoting for her [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its too early to declare anything is dead [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing is final [11:05] Us Vemo: but i dont know if she is acurate [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: she is not [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: look in the opensim feature matrix, thuogh I don't know the state of each framework [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: once it hits main grid and LL declares its the final deal [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: then we'll know [11:05] Sarah Kline: yep [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: anything before that is speculation [11:05] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i find it hard to credit the death of mesh when they haven't even finalized pricing yet... seems like mostly people are complaining about that [11:05] Us Vemo: yes i agree [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, and then we can release opensim with some kind of mesh implementation :) [11:05]  Us Vemo: but it could be a bonus for OS dont you think [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it already is [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it works great right now [11:06]  Us Vemo: if they took that move [11:06]  Bri Hasp: easier to bitch and whine [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: well [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but who knows what will change again between now and release [11:06]  Us Vemo: yes thats what i mean [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say, they have a fine line to walk [11:06]  Sarah Kline: its all about creating product over there though [11:06]  Us Vemo: exactly [11:06]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: it's hard to predict anything involving LL [11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: if they drop mesh for some reason, it will still be a boost for opensim [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: they might keep the cost a bit higher at 1st [11:06] Us Vemo: that would be great for OS [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: mesh is important for a lot of serious use people [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: as to prevent a huge deluge of content storming in [11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: because the mesh viewer bits are out there [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: or at least, it's quite a barrier factor not having a proper implementation [11:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: mesh is also important because omg have you seen the size of google 3d warehouse? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya, but alot of that stuff is crap [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: real crap [11:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: thats okay, i don't mind wading through it [11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: ya but theres a lot of junk in 3d warehouse [11:07] Us Vemo: lol [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: but then you have to remember that only a very small number of models will import properly to an sl environment [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb told me that the other day :) [11:07]  Sarah Kline: lol [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: almost no content on google 3d warehouse will [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i would guess maybe 1 in 1000 mesh on google will [11:08]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: really? granted i only tried like 3 of em, but they worked [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: you got lucky [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: very lucky [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:08]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: damn shoulda bought a lottery ticket [11:08]  Sarah Kline: with the first mesh viewer i got some really nice things inworld [11:08]  Us Vemo: what arethe main problem of importing them? [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: how they are created [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has some strict guidlines [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: that virtually no one in the real world would follow [11:08]  Us Vemo: hehe [11:08] Sarah Kline: ) [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: most free mesh are pretty sloppy [11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont blame them for most of the guidelines but some are kinda out of line [11:09]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: embrace and extend the collada format? [11:09]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: is it stuff that could be easily switched in a 3d program if you had your sources? [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: right, if you really know what your doing [11:09]  Sarah Kline: possible but better to make your own stuff [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: fixing them is probably not a huge strech [11:09]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oh. i do NOT really know what i'm doing [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: but dont expect that you will be able to download any old mesh off the web and it will work [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: also [11:09]  Us Vemo: what are the most common problems? [11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, there is an add on money module you can play with. Its not recommended for use with real currency. [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: alot of Collada mesh use Direct X formated textures [11:10] Sarah Kline: lol you cant tell [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: like 3dVia.com models [11:10] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: nah, but i better look it up if i want to create stuff [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: most of those are textures with Directx or OpenGL specific textures [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: which are not compatible with LL viewer [11:10] Us Vemo: ahh ok [11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, I'd prefer to see some other format used instead of Collada so I could export directly from Rhino [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: not hard to fix, but its extra steps [11:10] Us Vemo: i didnt know that [11:10] Raymond Lee: thx, andrew, that'll be handy to fix up for the project I have in hand. . . [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: LL viewer only supports the texture formats it always has [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: TGA, PNG, BMP [11:11] Us Vemo: yes [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: none of which are really optimized for video games in general [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: and alot of mesh are being designed for WebGL [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: do the increase texture size ? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: so they will have textures that are optimized for that [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: like 3dvia.com content [11:11] Dahlia Trimble: lunch time, bye all :) [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Dahlia [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:11] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: see ya Dahlia [11:11] Sarah Kline: bye dahlia [11:11] Raymond Lee: cya Dahlia [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [11:11] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: have a good one dahlia [11:12] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I'd better get on too [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya, thanks for coming good meet up [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys around [11:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: take care Justin [11:12] Us Vemo: well this was a great meeting... got some great info... thanks a lot [11:12] Sarah Kline: bye justin [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :) [11:12]  Us Vemo: see you [11:12]  Bri Hasp: ciao and TY Y'all [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: :) [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/ [11:12] Raymond Lee: Thx, Justin