Chat log from the meeting on 2008-08-26

[11:07] Charles Krinkeb: Do I assume there are no Lindens here right now so we skip the interop discussion until later?

[11:07] BlueWall Slade: tada!

[11:08] Whump Linden: Howdy.

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Whump

[11:08] Teravus Ousley: heh, Mr Bill is here.

[11:08] Teravus Ousley: :D

[11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Morning, Whump. Glad to see you. We were just about to get started and I believe discussing the OGP gridnaut project is the first item on the agenda.

[11:09] Charles Krinkeb: I believe that Teravus has commited most of the OGP patch to svn. Perhaps Teravus could describe what he did for you and others, Whump.

[11:10] Whump Linden: Yes, Teravus, I yield the floor.

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: hmm. Ok. Essentially, I reimplemented the patch as a region module. Very little code was copy and pasted. Though, the original patch was used as a reference.

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: What that means for OGP, is it will benefit from not requiring to keep and maintain a separate patch.

[11:12] egion going down

[11:12] Charles Krinkeb: So, this would be svn past r5970 where r5970 was also just released last weekend as 0.5.9, right, Terauvs?

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: uhh

[11:12] region going down

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: why is the region going down

[11:12] Whump Linden: yes, running svn -up is much easier than downloading and running a patch

[11:12] Teravus Ousley: It probably isn't.. it's a neighbor

[11:12] Charles Krinkeb: dont think it is.

[11:12] Teravus Ousley: blue messages get sent to child agents too..

[11:12] Charles Krinkeb: maybe someone has figured out how to send messages cross region.

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I presume that's a bug?

[11:13] Teravus Ousley: I'd say that's probably a bug, yes

[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: One mans bug is another mans feature.

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I think this is a bug for all men

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and women

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and dragons

[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: I'm neutral as long as the region doesnt crash.

[11:13] Teravus Ousley: Well, to turn on OGP, you must pick a spot that isn't already taken on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open_Grid_Public_Beta/Map_Locations#Teravus_Ousley

[11:14] Teravus Ousley: that's your 'gridspace' in OGP

[11:14] Teravus Ousley: your /Regions/*.xml file contains your region X, and Y.

[11:14] Teravus Ousley: don't overlap on another region.. or you'll get cache problems in the client. :D

[11:14] Charles Krinkeb: Will we be still working out details on X versus X*256 for a while?

[11:15] Whump Linden: That was disucssed at AWG this morning.

[11:15] Whump Linden: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AW_Groupies/Chat_Logs/AWGroupies-2008-08-26

[11:15] Teravus Ousley: no.. I think it's covered right now. OpenSimulator will be configured at the moment the same way that.. say it would be in standalone or grid mode. The gridspaces mean essentially the same thing.

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: it's just an internal representation that's different, if you know what I mean.

[11:16] Neas Bade: hey all

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Neas

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: Hey Sean

[11:16] Charles Krinkeb: Are there any action items for OGP that need to be addressed this week on the OpenSim side?

[11:17] Teravus Ousley: One bug with teleporting sending you to 0,0,2 if a parcel teleport location isn't set

[11:17] Whump Linden: yes, I'll open a copy of that on JIRA

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: actually how good is teleporting generally at the moment?

[11:17] Charles Krinkeb: Morning, SDague. We are just finishing up on the first agenda item, OGP.

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: oh sorry, don't let me interrupt the ogp discussion

[11:18] Teravus Ousley: Additionally, after you pick a non-conflicting X and Y, you'll need to set the following OpenSim.ini options

[11:18] Charles Krinkeb: no problem, Justin. Basically, Core developers or Lindens have the floor at any time they wish.

[11:18] Whump Linden: and we have two high priority bugs on our side, one's fixing the sim_host, and the other is the content type on responses to caps

[11:18] Whump Linden: at the moment, OpenSim has workarounds for both of those

[11:19] Teravus Ousley: [OpenGridProtocol]

[11:19] Charles Krinkeb: Great. Whump: "What would you suggest we should be thinking about for 2-4 weeks down the road?"

[11:19] Teravus Ousley: ogp_enabled=true

[11:19] Whump Linden: so we will be releasing another viewer binary later this week

[11:19] Whump Linden: Charles: getting OGP working in Grid mode

[11:20] Teravus Ousley heard that the protocol spec 3 is comming out very soon also

[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: Got it. Sounds like a good thought. I will carry that banner around the field a bit.

[11:20] Whump Linden: yes, Zero's reviewing it today

[11:20] Teravus Ousley: Ooh, Whump. Technically you can do OGP in grid mode, though, only the region knows about you.

[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: Will I see you and Zero next week at VW08? I will be in the OpenSim/3di booth.

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: and the Grid servers 'shrug' at your identity when they get asked about you :D

[11:21] Whump Linden: Tess and Hamilton will be at VW08

[11:21] Charles Krinkeb: Cool. I'll look for them.

[11:21] Whump Linden: and they'll be at the LL booth part of the conference

[11:22] Teravus Ousley: Though.. you can cross borders and do all of the normal stuff in grid mode with OGP.. no inventory or appearance though.

[11:22] Whump Linden: so you're somewhat of a ghost?

[11:22] Whump Linden: in grid mode

[11:23] Whump Linden: will other agents be aware of your presense?

[11:23] Teravus Ousley: yep, essentially a visitor.. nobody knows about you but the region you're in.. but the essential state information gets sent in border crossings/teleports. Yes.. they are.

[11:23] Whump Linden: okay

[11:24] Whump Linden: well, I can be available to set up another region and hook it up to the OSGrid

[11:24] Neas Bade: charles, is there an agenda? I had a question, but it's unrelated to the current topic, and didn't want to push anyone off the stage

[11:24] Charles Krinkeb: Ok. Trying to move on, but it is fair to talk about anything previously covered throughout the meeting. I believe we have a new release for OpenSim and it is 0.5.9. It will get up on the web site in the next day or so. I dont think the OGP is in 0.5.9 but is post-0.5.9 for commit.

[11:25] Whump Linden: okay, I'm done

[11:25] Neas Bade: Charles, is that going on the opensim project on the forge?

[11:25] Teravus Ousley: right, OGP was after 0.5.9 on purpose.

[11:25] Neas Bade: I saw adam set that up, and it will make a good place for file releases

[11:25] Salahzar Raptor: yep: can you tell us the url of the agenda?

[11:25] Charles Krinkeb: Our first agenda item was OGP. The second agenda item is "What things do the developers need from the testers and other participants this week?"

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: is there any way to identify visitors via ogp to osgrid

[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: Our agenda always has three items. 1) OGP 2) What developers need. 3) What testers need.

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: ?

[11:26] Teravus Ousley: at the moment, they come in with their linden name..

[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: Go ahead, SDague.

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: any other identifying features? birthmark, tattoos?

[11:26] Teravus Ousley: heh

[11:26] Neas Bade: doh, client crash

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just wondering if we can try and stop spurious information requests to the varoius grid services

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: If you look up their profile, they probably won't have one.

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: since that would make it easier to identify real bugs

[11:27] Whump Linden: / justin: should have "_EXTERNAL" appended to their last name.

[11:27] You: somtimes they are clouds :)

[11:27] Neas Bade: heh, missing terr head

[11:27] Neas Bade: man, that looks crazy

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: whump: thanks, that's a good point

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: hmm, I didn't add _EXTERNAL to the current version.

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: Would you like me to add _EXTERNAL?

[11:27] Neas Bade: ter, wouldn't it be better to just put something in profile?

[11:28] Teravus Ousley: I do.

[11:28] Neas Bade: ok

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, perhaps a bool on the client view?

[11:28] Whump Linden: / Teravus: yes, I'll Mantis it

[11:28] Teravus Ousley: It says something like 'OGP User' and 'About says, "I'm testing the OpenGridProtocol"

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: oh okay.... so there's some information in profile that can be used?

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, okay

[11:28] Neas Bade: so, I heard that in the latest message templates the protocol supports click position on surfaces

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's alright - I just want to eliminate issues which might be leading to the huge upsurge in paranormal (ghost) activity lately

[11:28] Neas Bade: does anyone know more about that?

[11:29] Neas Bade: and how we might enable that in opensim

[11:29] Teravus Ousley: hmm. OGP users are currently treated as regular agents as far as the simulator is concerned.

[11:29] Whump Linden: / okay, I need to run, folks are in #gridnauts if you have more questions

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's what I thought

[11:29] Whump Linden: Thanks Charles.

[11:29] Teravus Ousley: Thanks :D

[11:30] Charles Krinkeb: thanks, Whump. Looks like things are moving along.

[11:30] Whump Linden: And big thanks to Teravus, he jumped in and was all out of bubble gum.

[11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Ok, next agenda item. "What are the things the core developers want or need from the testers?"

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: I'd like to thank Zha.. also .. but he's not here.

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: are there still lots of ghosts around?

[11:32] Shenlei Winkler: yes

[11:32] Shenlei Winkler: there are

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I came on wp the other day and there were a bunchj of people who showed up in the users list, but were unresponsive

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: which is almost worse than straightforward ghosts

[11:32] Charles Krinkeb: Last week, we said that Mantis with confirming notes on both Windows and Linux and differing configurations or at least additional observers indicating they see the same problem would help the developers.

[11:32] Neas Bade: yeh, I'm thinking of diving into the scene data structures and cleaning some of those up

[11:33] You: Currently there are ghosts in Ferrmi for just about every avatar at this meeting.

[11:33] Neas Bade: it may at least help us track down some of these ghosts

[11:33] Neas Bade: so, no one have any idea on the surface touch stuff?

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is that I think there are multiple ghost sources

[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: We are opening more Mantis then we are closing, so we need some help from the testers to add confirming notes to help the developers.

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: firstly there were those that were around already, and then there are the new ones

[11:33] Teravus Ousley: well remember. Ghosts are caused by a full object update on an avatar that shouldn't get one.

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: Neas: That would be excellent stuff

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: Neas: perhaps even splitting up the massive Scene class in some way?

[11:34] Neas Bade: yeh, that was my thought

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: actually what would be really useful for testers to do

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: is see if they can isolate the most simple way in which a ghost can be replicated...

[11:34] Neas Bade: after I head on colided with it trying to do nhibernate region store stuff right before vacation I started thinking that it would be better to put the nh work on the back burner and putter on cleaning up the scene stuff

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: Neas: I don't suppose you can tell me what the real driving purpose behind InnerScene is?

[11:35] Shenlei Winkler: Can you be more specific, Justin?

[11:35] Shenlei Winkler: We get ghosts everytime a user logs out

[11:35] Neas Bade: nope, that predates me :)

[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: What can testers do to help developers that we are not doing?

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: Shenlei: Hmm, I've seen log outs occur without ghosts... but perhaps its different if someone logs into the region

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: Shenlei: do you see the avatar actually disappear?

[11:36] Shenlei Winkler: nope

[11:36] Shenlei Winkler: to all intents and purposes, it is that user

[11:36] Neas Bade: yeh, I think we used to have a sweeper that cleaned up child agents

[11:36] Neas Bade: but at some point that stopped being in there

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: Interesting, I saw it happen properly on Wp the other day so it's not completely consistent...

[11:36] Shenlei Winkler: but since we know exactly who is in the region, we also know that the avatar representation is a ghost

[11:36] Shenlei Winkler: and, you get a green dot on the minimap

[11:37] Teravus Ousley: right.. got lost somewhere in the LLUDP rewrite/refactoring.

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, possibly

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but it would be good to pin it down

[11:37] Shenlei Winkler: well, we can work on that

[11:37] Shenlei Winkler: the version on our internal region is 5988

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: if we could get a simple series of replication steps (even if it's straight login and then logout), that would help

[11:38] Melanie Milland: we should not really depend on a sweeper

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Shenlei: and I guess I could even come see it for myself soon :)

[11:38] Melanie Milland: good to have one

[11:38] Shenlei Winkler: this afternoon :)

[11:38] Melanie Milland: but if that's more than a last line of defense, then somethings else stinks

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it looks like things sohuld timeout in the LLClientView code and clean them up, in principle

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: Melanie: we have to.. the scene doesn't know when a client is dead or not

[11:39] Neas Bade: yeh, this is the ping sweep

[11:39] Melanie Milland: :/

[11:39] Neas Bade: though we should really have 1 reaper, instead of the one per client view the way they used to be

[11:39] Charles Krinkeb: Last of my three "Office Hour" general agenda questions: "What do the testers need from the developers to make their life easier?"

[11:39] Melanie Milland thinks: "Borken protocol indeed"

[11:39] Neas Bade: we always need to allow for a hard crashed client

[11:39] Shenlei Winkler: well...can I say thank you to everyone ...because life in OpenSim is way easier

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: well you know, without unit tests we don't know what to eliminate very well...

[11:39] Neas Bade: when means no graceful logout

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: or at least, look where to divert more attention

[11:40] Shenlei Winkler: I was looking at my notes from Spirit and things are just so much smoother

[11:40] You: The gohsts on Fermi are for avatars at this meeting and I doubt if they arrived at WP via Fermi.

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: Chris D: where is Fermi?

[11:40] Shenlei Winkler: Other than that, vehicle stuff would be great

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: Shenlei: thanks :)

[11:40] Teravus Ousley: Thanks for doing that! It has been quite illuminating and helpful :D

[11:40] Charles Krinkeb: SouthEast

[11:40] Shenlei Winkler: cool :)

[11:40] Shenlei Winkler: Melanie, thank yu for avatar persistence ;)

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: to me, that sounds like the old child avatar issue...

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: er child agent

[11:41] Neas Bade: yes, that's the child agent issue

[11:41] You: Yes, it has been like that for quite a while

[11:41] Neas Bade: anyway, with any luck, I may make it easier to figure out these issues. We'll see

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: right, regarding inventory I'm hoping 1903 will be patched up soon

[11:42] Neas Bade: the net effect however is that the nh stuff is probably on indefinite hold, unless someone else has cycles to dig in.

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: so it might be worth holding off on reporting any more problems with it until then

[11:42] Neas Bade only has so many hours in a week

[11:42] Teravus Ousley: haha, yes indeed.. time is a limited resource

[11:42] Shenlei Winkler: Justin - do you think the inventory issue might be contributing to the off texture loading anomaly I've been noticing?

[11:42] Shenlei Winkler: Sometimes texture don't load.

[11:42] Teravus Ousley: hehe, I suppose the ultimiate limited resource.. but that's a topic for another meeting :D

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Shenlei: No, they will be unrelated

[11:43] Neas Bade: yep :)

[11:43] Shenlei Winkler: Pity

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: are all the non-loading textures large ones?

[11:43] Shenlei Winkler: no

[11:43] Shenlei Winkler: in fact, some are sculpti textures, which are tiny

[11:43] UUID Speaker: Neas Bade, your key is f5ce1c54-dd24-441f-bb0e-99d34e0f35fd

[11:43] Charles Krinkeb: I have a question: "Do I need to change my three agenda items in any way or is this the best way to move forward for now?"

[11:43] Teddy Ruxpin:.

[11:43] Teravus Ousley:.

[11:43] Teddy Ruxpin: Weird

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: ..

[11:44] Charles Krinkeb: ?

[11:44] Teddy Ruxpin: My av started typing on its own

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: Ö¿Ö

[11:44] Neas Bade: I do really want to figure out this surface click thing as well though :)

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: shenlei: well, another thing I can look at son :)

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: soon

[11:44] Charles Krinkeb: That happens to all of us from time to time, Teddy.

[11:44] Shenlei Winkler grins

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: neas: I notice Whump took off when you asked - a coincidence I'm sure ;)

[11:45] Neas Bade: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Server/1.24

[11:45] Charles Krinkeb: co-incidence

[11:45] Neas Bade: it's LSL documented there

[11:45] Neas Bade: :)

[11:45] Neas Bade: no one likes answering my questions ;)

[11:46] Neas Bade: but, seriously, the ability to do in world apps goes way up once we have that

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, definitely

[11:46] Charles Krinkeb: Chris: do you mind copying the chat log and putting it up on the wiki today? Do you know how to do that?

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: Ok, since whump is requesting _External in the name. I'll set it as an option in the OpenSim.ini which defaults to _External

[11:46] Shenlei Winkler: I was kind of curious to hear what he had to say, myself

[11:46] Melanie Milland: external in the name for what?

[11:47] Teravus Ousley: OGP name, gets modified so you can know that it's an external avatar

[11:47] Neas Bade: it seems like :OGP or something would be btter

[11:47] Salahzar Raptor: if the agenda has ended.. can I put a question?

[11:47] Neas Bade: fire away

[11:48] Salahzar Raptor: yes the question is about the XEngine..

[11:48] Salahzar Raptor: I've read that you are considering to have it as default and that's might be a good thing

[11:48] Salahzar Raptor: since now there is a lot of confusion in would-be helpers

[11:48] Salahzar Raptor: since lsl-coding is duplicated in two places :(

[11:48] Salahzar Raptor: is that project still on?

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: we're hoping to recieve patches which reduce the duplication soon

[11:49] Charles Krinkeb: Until we resolve the duplicated file, please patch the original LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs and the LSL_Api.cs.

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: kurt is apparantly working on them - it's a pity he isn't here since we really need a status update, I think

[11:49] You: Charles: Sorry got called away. Yes no problem with the chat log.

[11:49] Charles Krinkeb: Thank you kindly, Chris.

[11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Your help is greatly appreciated. I am a one-armed paper hanger sometimes with this project.

[11:50] Salahzar Raptor: Yes we are working that way, but it might become increasingly complex to have them aligned properly

[11:50] Salahzar Raptor: since they are not only copies but also some refactoring has been done..

[11:50] Salahzar Raptor: so it behaves like a "fork"

[11:51] Charles Krinkeb: We do now know when the duplication will be resolved. Until it is, it is best to patch both LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs and LSL_Api.cs if possible.

[11:51] Charles Krinkeb: "do not know"

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: if it doesn't get resolved soon, I shall resolve it in a way that makes everybody cry

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: haha

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: sounds like something Adam would do :D

[11:51] Junta Kohime: lol

[11:51] Charles Krinkeb: The duplication of LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs to another file was a mistake in the first place and we are still working to resolve it.

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's a good tactic sometimes if you have skin of steel

[11:52] Neas Bade: heh

[11:52] Teravus Ousley: hehe, if your hair was black.. you could hide in the shadows..

[11:52] Salahzar Raptor: Ok so I will go on on checking the differences between the two files

[11:52] Charles Krinkeb: As the guy that committed the patch that duplicated LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs in the first place, the whole thing is a stone around my neck until it gets resolved.

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: :)

[11:52] Neas Bade: oh man, justin surpassed ter for #1 commit spot

[11:53] Teravus Ousley: yep

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: not for long though, I'm sure

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: Teravus: finished with your big deadline?

[11:53] Teravus Ousley: nah. I'm still stuck with work. Just until Sept 1st though likely.

[11:53] Charles Krinkeb: Ok. I declare the formal meeting over and any questions or statements are fair.