HG Meeting 2009/02/06

Summary


We met in secondlife://ucigrid04.nacs.uci.edu:9007/ (Gateway 7000). 16 people showed up inworld, and a few more on the IRC channel. Here are the main interesting points that came out of this conversation, as ways to address the current security holes related to inventory in the hypergrid due to viewer limitations:


 * Develop a Web interface for the inventory server, and a region module for the regions, so that users can interact directly with the inventory server and make things happen in the arbitrary regions where they are (rezzing objects, etc)


 * Develop a local opensim proxy that bridges between the viewer and the inventory server

Additionally, a third point emerged for moving beyond the current viewer:


 * Develop a non-GUI console client for prototyping the ideal protocol between clients, regions, and the several other servers. This can become a reference protocol implementation that GUI viewers can follow.

All of these are actionable with code, the preferred process in OpenSimulator.

Full Transcript
8 avies, yoohoo! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000



it's early for most of you :/ - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

not so early. it's already 10am - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

Crista, what kind of box is this region hosted on? Just curious. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

It's a linux machine, 4G of RAM, dual core - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

it's running both this region and Gateway 3000 - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

bandwith ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

infinite bandwidth - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000



speed i mean - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

infinite speed also :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

that's help - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

as fast as it gets in universities with fast connections - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I have no idea of the exact numbers, but it's fast - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i guess your students are paddling like mad ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

the university central computing services know all of my machines very well... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

they are frequently the top talkers of the entire campus - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

-->| 	justincc (n=justincc@80.175.122.121) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

hi justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

hey folks

morning justin - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

greets - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 imagine Diva with a Whip asking her students to paddle quicker - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

or maybe morning isnt quite the word you'd use - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

hi justin :) date to come ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

*dare - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

Good morning Justin - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

I am here - though probably only irc

for ppl in the IRC channel, http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Image:Teleport.jpg - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I think you need to download that and zoom in - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

man this irc relay has got very chatty

so let's start this - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I already took lots of pictures, and this hasn't crashed yet :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

goal 1 has been accomplished :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

you mean we don't have a Picture Committee? ;) - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

hehehe - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

huho... - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

don't start that thread ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

i'll be good. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

well, that's a good brigde to point number 2 - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I have the benefit of not having participated in the AWG meetings, so I'm fresh without history - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

there's a lot of things we need to decide wrt interoperability, and they involve not just opensim but the viewer also; I'm not entirely sure what the right process is. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

clearly the actual viewer spec is a limitation - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

 Master.ScienceSim @island.sciencesim.com:8002 has arrived

do you have any contact with the imprudence viewer team? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

i suggest to speak in generality and going down the road to reach an ideal viewer - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

whatever the viewer will be - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

 Master.ScienceSim @island.sciencesim.com:8002 has left

Maybe a broad framework / wish list that OpenSimulator would like for viewer creators to try and tackle? - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

that's a good idea, Orion - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 has arrived

I see a lot of LL-viewer derivates, but none of them is focusing on what I think is most important here, which is interoperability - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 has arrived

we really need viewer ppl involved if we are to make progress - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

most of the derivatives at least acknowledge opensim with grid support - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

sempuki is traveling - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

yes - perhaps worth an ask on sldev (providing that isn't way offtopic for that list)

hi - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

-->| 	dahlia (n=dahlia@ip72-220-236-152.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

hi - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

hi :)

he asked me to take some notes for him - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

hi - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

hi - adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

sempuki is in Imprudenc, Sacha? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

they are drafting they ownviewer atm - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

more or less an ideal viewer - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

crista, there is no lack of viewer development projects... are you suggesting another? or suggesting that we start to encourage "critical mass" in one? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Mic, whatever works, really - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i know of at least four BSD clean room attempts going on - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

4?

I think we need to make viewer writers more aware of their importance in the issue of interop - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

well, whatever the viewer will be, it should be open and modulabel - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

rex, 3di, dan miller, teravus and one more that might get interesting soon - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

hi dahlia :) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 whispers shyly - With readable code! - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

Crista: could the viewer problem be addressed by creating a proxy that accepts what you/opensim needs into what the SL dirivatives expect, then once it is all working, the proxy design could be used as a prototype/spec for a new opensim viewer that talks directly - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

Hi Sacha :)

http://imprudenceviewer.org/ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

Another good idea, Frank - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

on the proxy... we did that to test texture redirection off the simulator - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

it works... but its pretty slow - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

and the viewer shoumd not contains avatar defintion ! - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

when you have to pass updates through it - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

I believe jhurliman is currently taking the proxy approach.. is that what you're talking about?

justincc: yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yes, slow would be acceptable if it works - point being to be able to move forward with the design. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

the texture redirector was written by a different intel engineer - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

ah of course you would be - sorry, hard to see who is speaking in irc

I like Frank's idea - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

another approach would be to focus on replacing the networking pieces of the SL viewer - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

my instinct is to jump to the client side now. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

to get a "place to stand" - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Mic, it's what rex tried to do - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

not really - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

it's a nogo - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

how about implementing in libomv? that way some of the bsd clients could try it

what we discussed with ryan etal in the fall was to replace the packet code with libomv - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

 John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

made it - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

morning jhurliman! - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

hi John - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

morning - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

hello - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

hi - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

Hi John

wow, why does my name show up as @osgrid.org? i definitely did not come from osgrid - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

more gnomes :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i hypergridded from a local simian instance :-\ - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

i'm from irvine today :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

oh joy - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

hehehe - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

lol - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

btw... crista: when i went through the linked regions... i got the correct (@siciencsim label - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

a viewer shouldn't be restricted / tied to one rendering engine - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

it was the "URL in the search box" that seemed to makeadifference - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

and one type of avatar - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

i go from cyberlandia but i have ip and junta dns name - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

my instinct is to make a non-GUI viewer that simply does the protocol parts - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

sacha, if the focus is on interop.. do you really want to bite off the whole rendering piece? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Sacha, I know alot of Winlight haters that would love you for that! :) - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

nope - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

same start region and same path - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

maybe that could serve as strawman for GUI viewers - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

that's not a bad approach - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

++ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

focus on the protocols for now - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

could be the starting of a framework fro other devices too - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

 Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

if we would do that, it would serve as the reference for the protocol, and it's relatively easy to do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I tend to like working code more than english text... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

we noticed :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

hehe :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has left

do you think it a good idea to sumbit RFC's for this work? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

yes, working code really drive us (along with clear explanative text :)

for that MMOX group? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

just text on it's own doesn't seem to work very well in this context

protocol, based on SL or we move away from them ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

to the IETF - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

for methods to interop virtual worlds - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

I personally doubt the whole area is mature enough yet to go to the IETF... not enough participants actually trying for an internet of virtual environments

well, I'm not terribly worried about the IETF committee, but I guess we could when we have something working - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I'd like to see it working first - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

++ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

it might be helpful to not think of this as ONE big interop effort - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

hi dahlia - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

agreed Mic - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

hi :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

oh yes, hey dahlia :)

some of the protocols aremore stable than others - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

 	looks like I crashed - sigh...

12 avies! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

asset retrieval... inventory... etc have close parallels in existing CDN systems - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

 	chat is not coming through inworld now

I see it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

you're ok franck - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

 	I am on IRC now.

anyway,, let me jump to the part of the the concrete problem that I think is more urgent to fix - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

k - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

cane evrybody zoom in on that seq diagram - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

webapge diva ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

rezzing... - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Image:Teleport.jpg - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

thx - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

 John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

that jpg is too small. ppl need to download it and use another tool to zoom in - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

don't click on the boxes! (i crashed) - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

you may want to turn the sun down here, too, it's too bright - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

anyway, that's the current TP sequence diagram - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I'll listen and trust you ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

the part that most worries me is that part I highlighted here, the inventory - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

the receiving region requests inventory to the inventory server - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

that totally does not scale for security reasons - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

which begs the obvious question... why does the simulator need inventory? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

if we're talking about fixing things on the client + server, simulators don't need any awareness of inventory at all, correct? - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

yep - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yes, inventory should probably flow client-side

I have no idea why LL did this - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

does anyone know why? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

easier security?

one connection to manage - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

because the simulators are the gateways to the grid - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

 Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has left

sl like to proxy everything through the region - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

one place to enforce security - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

they act as the guardians at the edge - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

well, yeah. ok. but this doesn't work in open systems - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

no it doesn't - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

the viewer should do that - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

+1

for those of you who haven been in AGW meetings. has this been mentioned at all? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has arrived

I'm just curious, really. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i don't think you're allowed to talk about those kinds of things at AWG meetings - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

inventory solutions arent usually discussed in AWG :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

cos this seems so obviousely broken - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

 BlueWall.Slade_EXTERNAL @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

not allowed to talk about them??

sarcasm - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

ahhhh, sarcasm :)

actually not sarcasm. the last few times i tried to bring up something like that it was "off-topic" - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

are you guys telling me that this has never been talked about in those meetings, ever?! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

well, that, quite frankly, is dumb

i really need the "roll my eyes" animation that my daughters use with me - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

some sarcasm ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

 BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

<Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

ok, well, nevermind. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

this is broken, and we need to fix it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

would would happen itf the inventory wasn't sent? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

and for that we need a viewer that will fix it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

crista, there are anumber of derivative changes that need to happen - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<ImazeR> 	sorry - are you talking about now to move assets server to client side?

anyways, does it make sense to divide up the work into categories? client<->inventory server communication would be a category, and the larger problem of identity would be another - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

yes, that would make sense - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I think there are many different problems to solve - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I just happen to be more worried about this one - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

ImazeR: no, just talking about having the client speak directly with inventory server and cut the sim out of the loop - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade_EXTERNAL @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

so maybe we can start a wiki page listing all the differetn problems that need to be solved - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i have a meeting with the open metaverse foundation in 30 minutes... they are starting an effort to consolidate standards proposals and tech ideas for virtual worlds in a single place - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

that will be categorized in some manner - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

John, we could insert a proxy to connect to the inventory as a temp bandaid until it is debugged, then "encourage" the client programmers to add that. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

Crista: a listing page sounds like a good idea

ok, one less document to write :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

here's another "ugly" idea... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Frank: definitely. that's how we tested cable beach assets - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

use a web interface for intenvetory mgmt for now - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

with a region module that has an interface for rez'zing objects - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

with a secure token - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

but can't the region cheat? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

and how would the client be able to use the inventory then? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

well.. maybe... that's what i'm trying to build right now... :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

for inventory (for an ugly interface remember)you use a web browser to request rezing into a particular region - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yeah, anything involving the region is cheatable - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

oh I see - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

inverting the control - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yeah, possible - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

you can give the region module a token that allows it to retrieve an asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

one time only - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

to rez it - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

(or fora limited time) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

not if the client has to communicate a token to the sim for each action. but that might require more protocol glue than we have the ability to play with (easily) - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

could the inventory be filtered before it's sent to the foreign region? like worn avatar accessories only? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

as i said... this is an ugly proof of concept (mroe to findout what breaks) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

bandwith cost ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

or assets that are deemed open? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

Dahlia, there is no "deeming" - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

not unless we change the viewer - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

expliticly marked asopen - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

or do it through the web, like Mic says - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

or add metadata in the description or something - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

I think those are all great hack ideas for how to deal with this broken LL architecture - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i recommend a web service interface for the service... but you need to *eventually* simplify the UI - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

we should write them down - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

they are all kinda hackish :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

and at the same time, start thinking of an architecture that's not broken. Thinking=doing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

but if we focus on the protocols... i don't mind an ugly ui - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

doing --> thinking - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

it goes both ways for me :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

so maybe a console client would be fun - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i don't get the concept (not englis spoken) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

which concept? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

but rezing object on a sim cost bandwith - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

what you said - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

what you said Mic - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

it's an external interfcae sacha - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

(probably because i'm still tyring to figure it out myself :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

bascially... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

some kind of proxy ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

so, something that would work like libomv TestClient / NPC's ? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

one thing to take in account : bandwith issue - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

create a region module that has an interface that takes a request to rez an asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> lila.iwish @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

and a "one time" credential - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

the user has a web interface to inventory - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

requests the rezzing... gives permission to the specific sim... which creates the credential the sim uses to get the asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yeah, I can totally see that Mic. That would allow us to continue to use the LL viewer until a better one comes along - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

with a web browser on the side... but yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

and you couldstill have your "public" inventory through the existing services - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

but that would probebly mean that we would need to login to the inventory server too - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Q: how will it work when you want to get rezzed item on a foreign sim ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Sean Heavy has arrived

another approach that i've been working on is using a simulator as a client - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

again... the advatnage of the linden approach is that you get one credenttial for your interactions - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Sacha, it works because you contact the inventory server from the web and yo utell the inventory server where yo uwant your object rezzed - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

multiple services mean coordination ofidentity - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

if a local sim becomes the interface your client logs into, you can show whatever inventory you want that is implemented with whatever inventory protocol you design - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

yeah. ok. well we should try something like this. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

but at the same time prototype a viewer-side protocol that does the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

(I think it's the right thing) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

wow 16 avies! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I wonder if a web interface may be better than the client UI for more purposes.. land, groups, estate management.. - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

more avi than the average sim in sl ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

dadlia: there's a lot of potential in web interfaces - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

dahlia, you can probably guess my opinion on that :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

lol - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

I have a web interface controlling that traffix simulation - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

@Sacha - With none of the bots! :D - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

ajax chat :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

that was the inspiration... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

it's a way of doing what the viewer doesn't do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has used mibbet in the sl client a few times - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

you can think of it as a back door into the simulator - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

but its really a way to extend the interfaces - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yep - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

with forms and all - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

except that it's quite painfull to write those html pages... :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I did bring it up for group management once but the idea didnt catch on :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok, so two threads are clearly emeerging: - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

1) Extend the viewer with web interfaces to do the right things that the viewer doesn't do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

in term of protocl, i guess the system will send tall the data to the viewer during he tp process - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

2) prototype a client-side that does the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

sacha: that's not the problem - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

the problem is that the "system" sends the data to random regions - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

should the proto based on SL message or should we start to work on our own protocl - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

so, another question, probablly for justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I heard that there's something in the viewer that tries to do the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

that is, use a CAP for inventory access - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

what's the story there? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

how about just don't rez anything unless it's full perm? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

Basically, some time ago we tried to implement CAPS because Linden Labs started to implement it

I mean, for inventory fetch. However, it started to break

does LL use that internally? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

When I went to the Linden Grid to get some information on the protocol, I found that they had disabled it and gone back to UDP on the regions I visited

so I disabled ours in favour of the UDP implementation and it's been like that ever since - afaik LL are still using UDP too

duh - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

is anyone here from Linden Lab? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

nope - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

guess not - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i'm not Whump in disguish - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

I thought whump was mentioning some involvement - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

oh well, so I guess it's fair to assume that the viewer is not gonna change anytime soon - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

he did say he would be studying hypergrid - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

probably not the LL "official" one - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

alright. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

the three approaches of 1) using a web interface in the viewer, 2) writing a new console client for protocol design, 3) using a local simulator as a frontend, all seem like good approaches - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

well, let's wrap up this workshop in a proper way, so that we have action items - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yey, John, you read my mind :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i'm going to talk to the OMF right now about setting up a proper place for proposal documentation - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> lila.iwish @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has left

john, would it make sense to use libomv for 2)? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

that's a good question... - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

or do we need to go belowe that? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

crista, i can't commit to a timeline for #1... but if someone wants to help, we can at least move it forward - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

it gives us the headstart of having a complete client implementation that we can extend on. maybe branching libomv for experimental additions - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

Mic thanks for volunteering!!! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i can try to help mic - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

thanks... send me an email (cmickeyb@gmail.com) and i'll give you some info on what i currently have - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

so that means that I should probably also change the current hypergrid implementation - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

so that it doens't fetch invwentory just like that - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

how about just adding a switch to turn it off? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

make a switch for now diva :) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

make a switch - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

Crista: we should spend some time at some point documenting hypergrid at the protocol level and thinking about what it would look like in a partial trust or untrusted scenario - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

That would work for me as well. I kind of like letting hypergridders take from my freebie library :) - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok john. btw did that TP work? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i'm here! - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

from simiam? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yes - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

ya people are starting to build distribution on top of hypergrid already - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

OMG! That's soo cool! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

if you checkout the latest simian from SVN, pull up the map and TP to the region just to the right you end up in UCI Welcome - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

that's awesome. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

with inventory? ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok, well this seq diagram is a good beginning - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

no avatar appearance, no attachments, no home assets or inventory. but i have a body and a name - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

it doesn't have the hg_user part, I'll add it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

crista: the only thing i worry about is that using a sequence diagram of code can sometimes mask what is happening over the wire - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

I think we need both - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yes - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

sometimes you want details, other time you want abstractions - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

gotta run, take care everyone - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

bye john - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

by john - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

laterz jhurliman :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

I'm going to paste this meeting in w wiki page somewhere - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has left

excellent - Koffeekid.Smalls @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

and make some sort of summary - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

bye

it would be good to have a discuss section where we can capture thoughts - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yes - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

thanks - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

Good meeting, looking forward to progress. I have to run also, thanks for hosting this Crista. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

thanks everyone - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

-->| 	AlexWelch (n=alex@194-125-dsl.ipact.nl) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

I can't believe this sim didn't crash! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

thanks crista - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

meh - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

yeah, miracle on UCI street :)

why ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

I need to go too, but I'll leave the IRC open so I can see the log. Bye all :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

you must have good sysAdmins! :) - Sean Heavy of Gateway 7000

well 16 avies AND an IRC bridge - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

hey Sean! Yes! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 has left

<Gateway 7000> Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has left

ciao a tutti - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000



meeting over ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

yes. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

have a nice day All - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

bye everyone. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

(I hate long meetings too, along with committees :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

ciao elwe - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

ciao Carlos :) - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 has left

yikes! what just happened> - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

yes - always good to discipline to finish on time

that was odd - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

yeah - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

quando ci si scollega di botto di solito crasha la sim - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

i can change water height - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

già che ero qui volevo guardarmi attorno ;) - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

Junta, don't do it :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

why is it possible - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

this is all unprotected - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

so be careful - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

also other parameters - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

sure, i turn it back to its default value - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok. I don't have permissions here - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

I'm trusting people's common sense :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000



crista, talk to you soon! - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

ok, tchau everyone - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Mic Bowman has left

crista, a question - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

crista - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

c ya - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

Thanks everyone! - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

one question - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

is it possible to ban a region to don't let people to come from there? - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

nice meeting Crista, see you later ;)

bye justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

crista is question asket from more land owners - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<--| 	justincc has left #opensim-gateway7000 ("Leaving")

I think protection in the HG are the same as in non-HG - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i meant - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

if i have the teleport address - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok, folks, I need to upgrade the UGAIM here and find out what's wrong with the asset server... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

i can tp me in every grid/land - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

means restart in few minuts ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

that's right - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

let's move all HG questions elsewhere - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Sean Heavy has left

where? - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

#opensim, I guess - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

ok - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 has left

bye crista - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

bye! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<Gateway 7000> Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has left

<Gateway 7000> Crista Lopes has left

<Gateway 7000> Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has left

vabbe ci resta il dubbio - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000



torniamo - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

|<-- 	AlexWelch has left irc.freenode.net

a casa - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

lol... certo - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

ok, that was stupid. I logged out without copying the caht history

<Gateway 7000> Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 has left

does anyone have the chat history?

crap!

<FrankNichols> 	diva, my IRC channel was up the whole time, I can copy that.

ah, thanks FrankNIchols. oh I guess mine too :-) duh

(don't mind me, I just had a long trip yestreday...)

<Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

oh but wait

<FrankNichols> 	I normally have chat logging on also, but I dont know if it works in hippo - let me check.

Frank, please do it

my bufffer is not long enough

Frank, can you please send it to lopes@ics.uci.edu

<FrankNichols> 	grr. my bad, my buffer is only about 1/2 of it. Let me check my chat logs.

dahlia: ping

<Gateway 7000> adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 has left

ckrinke: ping

do you guys have non-dumb ICR clients that have this whole conversation?

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Born%20To%20Learn/130/215/24 - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

I have it back to 10:08

that's good enough, better than nothing