Chat log from the meeting on 2015-09-15

[10:59] Lani Global: today, i hope to ask for help.

[10:59] Lani Global: a problem we have in opensim Vars

[10:59] Lani Global: the problem is in the viewer

[11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what problem you have lani ?

[11:00] Lani Global: can not see very far in the Var region

[11:00] Lani Global: i have a snapshot view of the problem

[11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what is not far ?

[11:02] Lani Global: An image of the viewer problem in OpenSim Var regions. The view is cut off at about 1000m distance. So, the objects and terrain are transparent beyond 1000m. http://gallery.osgrid.org/main.php?g2_itemId=106870

[11:02] Lani Global: sky and void water shows through terrain and objects.

[11:02] Marcus Llewellyn: That's a viewer problem. and it probably has something to do with the skydome. You can't see past teh skydoe, which is 1024m wide.

[11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh. i never use a draw disastance that far

[11:03] Lani Global: it is not connected to Draw Distance.

[11:03] Marcus Llewellyn: It is the skydome.

[11:03] Lani Global: yes, skydome possibly, but it is very ugly

[11:04] Lani Global: IF OpenSim has Var regions, THEN we should have viewers that can see Var regions.

[11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: We do. We just can't see farther than 1024m. ;)

[11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: And that's a viewer issue.

[11:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: fly closer ?

[11:04] Lani Global: i will show you a flight altitude of 128m

[11:05] Lani Global: this is flight altitude = 512m http://gallery.osgrid.org/main.php?g2_itemId=106873

[11:06] Marcus Llewellyn: I've seen it. One of the first things I did with a var was to bring in elevation data for Arizona's Barringer Crater, at RL scale. It sucked, because you couldn't stand on one side of the crater, and see the other side.

[11:06] Lani Global: flight altitude = 128m http://gallery.osgrid.org/main.php?g2_itemId=106870

[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have only 3x3 var. so hard to test

[11:06] Lani Global: yes, Marcus. this also is a problem in "Normal Size" regions with Surrounds of mountains.

[11:07] Lani Global: we did not see this problem before Viewer V3

[11:08] Lani Global: it was a hard coded "feature" brought in by LL viewer code, for the "Privacy" features along with Parcel Privacy

[11:08] Lani Global: and other SkyDome or Skybox stuff

[11:08] Lani Global: so, now we need to figure out how to remove this, or at least make it further way, such as 2048m for OpenSim use.

[11:09] Lani Global: it is very ugly, and it kills the immersive experience in OpenSim.

[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: YOu're preaching to the choir. Also to people who can't do anything about it. ;)

[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: with the wrong SL scale immersive is anyway far away.

[11:10] Lani Global: i've talked with 3 viewer devs about it.

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: What feature are you discussing?

[11:10] Lani Global: none of the viewer devs even knew about it!

[11:11] Lani Global: it was hidden code that LL put in

[11:11] Lani Global: sneaky

[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: In a var region, land or objects farther than 1024m away can get cut out of view because of the skydome.

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I never set my draw distance that high.

[11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: Most sane people don't. ;)

[11:12] Lani Global: ok, so, there is interest in the Onlook viewer, right? perhaps this can be fixed.

[11:12] Lani Global: draw distance has nothing to do with this

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity only allows you to set draw to a max of 1024m.

[11:13] Shez Oyen: I think that can be over ridden in debug

[11:13] Lani Global: how?

[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: But there are edge cases. Say you import DEM elevation data, and want to be able to walk around it at RL scale. You might have just terrain and a few simple objects, and a very high view distance.

[11:13] Shez Oyen: Render farclip

[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tyr dd2048 ?

[11:14] Shez Oyen: RenderFarClip

[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ., dd 2048

[11:14] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi everyone :)

[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: type dd 2048 in chat and see

[11:14] Shez Oyen: Hi Alicia :)

[11:14] Lani Global: it is common in many regions that are doing flight or airplane things, to have very few objects rezzed, and in this case, there is no problem with large draw distance

[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: thats killing my frasmerate onoy 13 left

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:15] Lani Global: hi Ubit!

[11:15] Lani Global: IF OpenSim has Var regions, THEN it should be possible to have a viewer that can see Var regions.

[11:15] Hippo Finesmith: apologies for lateness

[11:16] Lani Global: if there is a real workaround for this problem, it would be wonderful to publish it.

[11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not use a dome ? but just windlight

[11:17] Shez Oyen: I never tried pusing it over 1024 either.

[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm only seeing about 1 sim over.

[11:18] Lani Global: see example in this image http://gallery.osgrid.org/main.php?g2_itemId=106870&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: view terrain isnt that easy

[11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: We're not talking about seeing into a neighbor, but across a large var. Different scenario.

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: at moment avinantion merge as view range limited to 512m

[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and 512 is already very far

[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: most systems cannot handly 256

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: but well.. viewers want to show all terrain...

[11:19] Lani Global: draw distance is not this problem

[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon is on his way

[11:20] vegaslon plutonian: I bet you could see further if you disable rendering of sky

[11:20] Shez Oyen: Cool

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: neighbors region is related to viewrange

[11:20] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..

[11:20] Shez Oyen: Speak of the devil.. Hi Neb :)

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone, sorry I am late, 5 minute trip to store turned into 45 minute adventure lol

[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Unless it is a mountain or big skyscraper I would never expect, or probably ever see anything that far from me.

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: for now its only counted from region edges, but it will be from avatar position, one day :(

[11:21] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi neb

[11:21] Hippo Finesmith: hi neb

[11:21] Lani Global: is there any possibility of working with Onlook viewer to fix this problem?

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: ( also only checked on entering regions now.. )

[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: 50 demerits for House Izumi.

[11:22] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: so, the skydome should be set to dd + some additional distance?

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, that did it. You pushed him off. :)

[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm not actually sure why the skydome exists. You can, for example, fly above the darn thing.

[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: It may be a leftover of pre-windlight days.

[11:23] Lani Global: example on this prim here on my avi

[11:23] vegaslon plutonian: clouds have to be rendered some place

[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, when you go up too high the sky just turns black.

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( well current viewers also display ugly things )

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah

[11:24] Lani Global: this is a view from flight altitude 512m, you can not see much of the ground terrain.

[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm not sure the skydome and the windlight sky are the same thing. But I really dunno... this convo needs a viewer dev r two who're familiar with rendering, or we're all just shouting in the wind. :)

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, how far do you expect to be able to see?

[11:25] Lani Global: 2048m or 4096m

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon is having trouble getting here.

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: yeack suicidal :)

[11:25] Lani Global: not a problem in regions that very few prims.

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well for now viewers don't limit terrain view range..

[11:26] Hippo Finesmith: Andrew when you get a min plz check pm :)

[11:26] Lani Global: many people have video and computer capability to see that

[11:26] Lani Global: before viewer V3, we could see 16km.

[11:26] Lani Global: and there were no problems

[11:26] Lani Global: yes, it took some time to rezz.

[11:27] Lani Global: it has been common for airplane flyers to use 2048m Draw Distance

[11:27] Lani Global: for many years

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well don't know at sl last time i tested on mainland with 512m  fs crashed

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: just 512m :)

[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: That's how you know FS is working. It crashes. :)

[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:29] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..

[11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: WB Neb

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: sheesh not my day

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: You made it.

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: computer crashed hard

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that's it. Meeting is over.

[11:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i can do 1024 in SL. but who want todo 1024m if your framerate drops below 30fps ?

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: hehehe

[11:29] Shez Oyen: oh dear

[11:29] Lani Global: so, who are the Viewer developers that might be interested in use of the viewer in OpenSim Var?

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza + Giant Blender Model open = bad day

[11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm, not neough graphics memory neb ?

[11:30] Shez Oyen: heh

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i have 4gb gpu and 24gb ram

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and its not enough

[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Lani, your best bets are prolly Alchemy or SIngularity.

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: blender is regularly using 20gb ram

[11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: heh

[11:30] Lani Global: http://gallery.osgrid.org/main.php?g2_itemId=106873

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity viewer doesn't let me use voice chat to talk with other people. I can hear other people though.

[11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm, if that's true i betetr get 16GB more in the next months

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: next machine will have 64gb ram

[11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: nah 32GB sound sfar enough for me

[11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Can I have your old one? ;)

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: http://4dialog.com/Upplands_Vasby/phase2/demo/img/uv2_hd_blender_022.png

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: this is what i had open when machine crashed

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: http://4dialog.com/Upplands_Vasby/phase2/demo/img/uv2_hd_blender_021.png

[11:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha, then am safe with 16-32GB

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: anyway I was saying before i crashed earlier, I assume everyone probably already knows, but if you do not know, Ubit is not a core developer for opensimlator :)

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: not=now*

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sorry hehe bad typo

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: lol

[11:33] Lani Global: \Yay/ Ubit!

[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: There goes the neighborhood. ;)

[11:34] Shez Oyen: Thank you Ubit :)

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: he is in the process of merging 2 years of Avination opensimulator improvements into core

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: along with some help from Melanie and Misterblue

[11:34] Lani Global: wow

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:34] Shez Oyen: Wonderful!

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I was thinking there should be a group for the core devs so they can wear role tags indentifying them as such (if they so choose)

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: aactually there is

[11:34] vegaslon plutonian: so finally get the rest of the vehicle region crossing code?

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: and with help from several other people testing that massive merge.

[11:35] Shez Oyen: yes!

[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Vehicle crossing is one of many improvements coming.

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: well there was a dev group here

[11:35] Lani Global: i like Ubit's new ODE Var :)

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ive little cars crossing with xengine

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: main issue is lag

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: I must have removed myself or something

[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: But it comes with a tweaked version of ODE.

[11:35] Shez Oyen: praise (insert your godname here)!

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: we can start a new one though :)

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: There is an OpenSimulator Developers group but no special roles in i.

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea I imagine improving vehcile border crossing is no easy task

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: bah, my darn t key.

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: handing off a lot of info in a small window

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: those crossings should also work with bullet.. possible old ode

[11:36] Lani Global: maybe we will soon be able to fly or drive across the grid.

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: will multi person vehicles cross as well?

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i remember the SL birthday party Baloon rides

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ive been alone testing neb :)

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you could get on a baloon and fly all over the 21 or so birthday sims

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: code is there for N avatars

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yea I wish i had more time for testing at the moment

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: damn work

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: cool

[11:37] vegaslon plutonian: I mean I got vehicle crossing working using lsl scripts and the half finished crossing code but people would look forward to it working without a bunch of lsl hacks

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: is the avinationmerge branch working now?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: just each one adds even more lag...

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: are the migrations in?

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: can i upgrade Sisyphus and continue testing?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: migrations are in yes

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool i will try to get sisyphus moved over today

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: at moment i see issues with hg

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: something to except since we dont have hg at avn

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: consult with diva on that

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: on windows here, things seem working...

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: new physics engine too

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: maybe you can talk about that?

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, most of the migrations are in. I found a missing one last night. It is possible there might be others.

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool thanks Andrew

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: glad others are testing

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[11:39] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev       a6012a3: 2015-09-11 09:49:33 -0700 (Unix/Mono)

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: my time for testing is limited due to work at the moment

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: u didn't pusj yr fixes andrew :)

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I want to get back to working on my Events module.

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: gotta pay the bills :)

[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Avination apparently just tacks on rows to their DB tables whenever someone sneezes. ;)

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I could do that. I wasn't sure if you were going to.

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well andrew is having issues i don't see on windoes..

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: The only issue is I don't hear a sound when I drop a physical prim on to the land.

[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: The horror!

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: even on sandbox collision sounds dont work for im or map...

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: thats not fully surprsing

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: guess he as a mess on inis :p

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: when I made the sound set for opensimulator long time ago

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: at the time we still were not allowed to look at viewer code

[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: i have a problem with group creation but that may not be an OS code issue.

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and only like 75% of the sound uuids were documented

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: i made new uuids ned

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: we were not allowed to look at the viewer code to get the remaining uuids

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: i send those sounds as normal sounds

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: so i could not make sounds for those

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm wondering if I may be missing sound files

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: cool

[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Doesn't the viewer expect some asset UUIDs to be immutable?

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: you gave us the sounds we gave you back that pack at bin/assets/collision...

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: collision sounds are triggered by physics

[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wish someone made a asset owner name url corrector. every time at startup tehr elot's of aulty ones http:\\......../

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: btw, for those wondering about the big merge, it consists of 3,273 commits (after you exclude code merges from the main OS branch)

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: this was ages ago I recall making the xml by hand actually

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: was a nightmare I would not want to repeat

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well that one i did lol

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: used a hack on the uuids :)

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya adding default assets is such a pain

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i wish there was an easier way to do tat

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: yeap and u need to put those on grid assets...

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: but well

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: collision sounds may need a option to turn them OFF lol

[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think FS have that

[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and singularity too. i neve r hear any

[11:45] Lani Global: viewer has it

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: i don't use those

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: when i did that collision sounds are as other prim sounds

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: so that will not work.. for now at least

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: the one sound i recall for sure not doing is footsteps

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: when walking

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: it was a uuid hard coded in viewer

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: that no one ever documeted on wiki

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: yeap but thats on another code path

[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn isn't a fan of footsteps.

[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I used to hear footsteps but I haven't heard them in a while.

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: its viewer triggered sound i think

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: if you log into SL first

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and get it cached then you hear them here

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, that would make it easy to find the UUID for the footsteps sound

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: yea now we can look at viewer code its easy heh

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: at the time we had a very no core devs allowed to look at viewer code policy

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: That too if someone wants to dig through another big buch of code.

[11:49] Shez Oyen: what a stupid policy

[11:49] Shez Oyen: who would make that rule?

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: other avn things also seem to work

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: not really at the tmie gplv2 and BSD was a bad combo

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ubODE seems to work.. providing also physics sits

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and information for those sounds..

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: possible still the only engine that does cross vehicles for now

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea hopefuly bulletsim follows soon

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: should be easy..

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ( possible already works. not sure )

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: that option to hide avatars inside a parcel also seems to work

[11:52] vegaslon plutonian: only problem bulletsim really has is that it does not keep the vehicle params after the cross so you have to set them again

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: those are passed as prim properties?

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: yeap that was a issue with core

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like something that should be easy(?) to fix.

[11:53] Lani Global: tweet of this meeting https://twitter.com/LaniGlobal/status/643859904269295617

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: vehicles params are now stored and passed on crossings

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: was one of the missing migrations itens :)

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: nice, ya i imagine incorporating that into bulletsim wont be hard

[11:54] vegaslon plutonian: so just need bulletsim to apply them then

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: since we already have working example :)

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: think i placed the needed code at its front door :)

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: UBPS

[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Is tehre a way to replace http:\\ for http:// ? worse thing i tried it region side. but i think it's also wronmg grid side

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit Postal Services :P

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, where do you see the \\ being used?

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: well this merge was push into a core branch so more ppl can help fixing and texting

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: testing

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: specially on those dark areas i know nothing about :)

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yea which turns out was a great idea :)

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: glad we didnt go straight to master

[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: when the simulator is started on metropolis

[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it's on pile of objects on my regions

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: nopes it needs care bf getting into master

[11:59] vegaslon plutonian: I feel sorry for moses, if they had any hope of compatability this may blow it out of the water

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ohh why ?

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea they have some hard choices ahead

[11:59] Lani Global: many forks in the salad.

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: if they are doing physics dont see a issue

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yea ultimately what we are doing would benefit them

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well i did messed up those stats that showed up in master...

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: however they dont use core simulator

[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: It depends. If they have (or plan to) do things like their PhysX work as modules, as was rather pointedly recommended by core devs, they shouldn't have a problem.

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: they use simiangrid

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: someone will have to bring simiangrid up to date

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we cant worry about that though

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: They would be better of waiting until more testing has been done on this mega dump/merge.

[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: Pretty much, that's up to MOSES. I think all the original maintainers/devs of simiangrid are gone.

[12:01] vegaslon plutonian: nope, they are just getting people excited

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i think if moses does ultimately fork in an incompatible way

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: its very likely simiangrid will be removed from opensimulator all together

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it would be no turning back at that point

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: they are the only ones who use it

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen references to it in the ini files. What is simiangrid?

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: nothing definite about that of course but I cant really see it not happening either

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its a PHP Robust replacement

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok.

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: that pretty much only MOSES uses anymore

[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Also has a web frontend.

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: hmmm with someone i found a issue and a "incompatibilty with ubOde on meshs

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it was a product of Intels Science Sim

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: sort of like wiredux, or some stuff diva has done.

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya MOSES has evenexpanded it even further

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: with their own web portal

[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: It was bigger.. .like Neb said, in addition to a web UI, it was a complete service replacement. Assets, inventory, etc.

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: seems some ppl is uplading meshs without a high res physics mesh, and current opensim in that case uses one from the visual meshs...

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: MGM2 is the name of thier web interface

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: ubODE will not do that... no high res physics mesh then its convex period :)

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: the way current master is doing is not compatible with viewers

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a lot of hidden or missing info on the best way to upload mesh. Not everyone who uploads mesh knows the best way to create a model and how to upload it.

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and actually there is no saving

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea best is very subjective too though :)

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: if you upload a mesh telling physics to use the high lod

[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. The viewers aree to blame for that. They have dialogs setup foor a very SL specific upload workflow. OpenSim's does *not* match that, and really should have customized mesh upload dialogs.

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i generally do select file for physics

[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Without that, people will remain confused.

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: and load the same collada

[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Basic things like limits on size of saved file, or number of faces. What settings to use, or not, in the upload dialog.

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: the physis mesh data block will point to the visual mesh anyway

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: unless i make a special physics collada

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: no duplication of data, i think...

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: for stuff like terrain its pretty vital you use the highest quality for physics

[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I've been using "from file" for physics on mesh objects.

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: yeap.. upload telling to use the high lod :)

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: I personally dont like the viewer making any decisions for me

[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: This is another discussion that really needs viewer devs present. :/

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: you really need to lay everything out in a way that removes al choice for the viewer

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Where are they hiding out these days?

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: accept to just upload it as is

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise its a bad day pretty much :)

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: think viewer tries to do that on the high lods

[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: We have a few viewers devs that hang out in #opensim-dev. Ones from FS, Singularity, and Alchemy for sure.

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: viewer makes pretty bad choices, though I have t say too though after messing with unity

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: LL did an amazing job at creating a system where even the crappiest of models

[12:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: rare use the viewer generated physics

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen yellow text on the region console even on sculpties when it complains about something related to meshing them.

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: looks like it should

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: it does cook the convex hull :)

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the stuff i have made looks perfect in opensim and blender

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: but not in Unity

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: main issue on high lods is that meshs have low resolution

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: 16bits in think

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: yea and for physics its important you stay in te 16 bit range

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: because the viewer is not smart enough to make multiple physics mesh

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: you just get a ton of artifacts

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: triangle city i call it

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I work in a modelling program tha doesn't care about triangles. When I go to pull it in to blender that is when I get triangle info for the model format I use to export so Blender can load it.

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: yes if you are talking about Rhino

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: well was just a warning.. ubODE will not look to visual lod meshs

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: Rhino to OpenSim == TheSuck!

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: no physics higher res mesh then its convex :)

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: doable but its a lot of wor

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Support STEP models! :)

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: STEP format that is.

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the models i deal with are BIM

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its so painful

[12:12] Marcus Llewellyn: Rhino is *not* meant for game engine ready models. Not remotely. LOL! At best, you create a high poly model in Rhino to bake materials from in a low poly version in something like Blender

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: http://4dialog.com/Upplands_Vasby/phase2/demo/img/uv2_hd_blender_021.png

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: that train station / hotel is from Rhino

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its 2 million vertices

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: :)

[12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: That's... a lot of polys for what I'm looking at. :/

[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Initial conversion to Blender results in huge numbers of vertices/faces and I have to start decimating it to try and get it under control for upload to ta grid.

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: yea its a lot of work Andrew

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty much what I do all day long

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, how big was the file before you put it in to Blender?

[12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Decimation will only get you so far, with so much quality. The *right( way to do is is to roll up your sleeves, and retopologize by hand.

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: 150mb or something

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Not too bad.

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: right now my entire blender file is about 500mb

[12:14] Hippo Finesmith: hey Andrew didnt you do some work on groups to

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, you have (or are) using Rhino?

[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: 1.95m verticles to much ? :)

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew no i used the 90 day trial to convert that model

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: someone sent me file in rhino forma

[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hippo, I use the xmlrpc webbased group system but not worked on it that much.

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: only time i had to ever use Rhino

[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ah, ok.

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: but i totally experienced your pain :)

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt fun

[12:15] Hippo Finesmith: thats what im looking for :) the one you worked on

[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: If your trial runs out I can help. I bought the program some time ago.

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks i will keep thatin mind

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya my trial ran out long ago

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: The trial is limited to 25 saves, IIRC

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just did an export

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I think that counts as a save.

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: oh maybe i only did it like 2-3 times

[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: i just exported it in 100% quality

[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: becasue i tried reducing it, didnt look right in blender

[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: When I first tried Rhino the trial was just based on date restriction and not limit on saves, AFAICR.

[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh wow, i see a hippo, waves

[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: ok well I need to run, i have ton of work to get done before tomorrow morning

[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: I'll be on iRC should anyone need me

[12:19] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'll upload the log ...

[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: which groups system is used here on osgrid, nebadon?

[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: thanks Sheera

[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: did you stream today marcus?

[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: I did, yes.

[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: nice thanks

[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: But mostly as a test.

[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: you figure out archiving?

[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: We'll find out when I stop streaming. lol

[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: ah haha ya cool

[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: I did do a local recording as well this time.

[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[12:20] Hippo Finesmith: hi Rira

[12:20] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..

[12:21] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: But I guess, the text based log has it's merits still ...

[12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't wanna put my stuff on the wiki or nothing until I can be sure that I can reliably do this every week.

[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: yea no worries, thanks for testing it out

[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: pretty cool for sure

[12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: It seens like every time I run that chat log trhough my prettifying utility, it experiences a new exception. lol

[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: next time i'll be sure to log in with avatar who has 65 chinese symbols for a name :P

[12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Do! lol

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: btw u thinkg there still many mega regions in use?

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Ubit, unlikely but probably some

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: ok

[12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Paart of the problem is that I don't get to test it enough. LBSA is somewhat helpful. The friday party was a great test for it last week. It'll get there.

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: nice, ok well anyone needs me give me shout on IRC

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: ill see it eventually :)

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi flüstert: back to work I go :)