Chat log from the meeting on 2021-04-13

 [11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure, so he can move MS word documents real fast around the house [11:01] Ubit Umarov: well he did create the taskmanager as hobby then sold to ms [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:01] Ubit Umarov: also made another thing he also sold ms [11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:01] Ubit Umarov: and bf that made a product for amiga [11:01] Ubit Umarov: a floppies memory cache [11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew [11:02] Bill Blight waves [11:02] Ubit Umarov: so yeah, if that was not well paid... duhh [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Who/what is being talked about related to Amiga? [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Andrew I checked the code for detecting joysticks and such and LL had applied some changes last fall [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Bill [11:02] Ubit Umarov: that guy i mean [11:02] Ubit Umarov: but seems on internal ms workers classificqation he never got the max value of 5 [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. Does that mean they broke things or that they were updating it to support the newer 3D mice? [11:03] Ubit Umarov: only 4 [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the comments said the lib for macOS did not have the detection mechanisms as the Windows version did, so that might be the case for Linux too [11:03] Ubit Umarov: seems only bill gates could give 5 [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. Thanks for looking in to it. [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the Windos lib has some auto-detection functionality based on device ID [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I added the code to my viewer [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ada. [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which was btw updated on the site a few days ago [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Aada [11:04] Ubit Umarov: aada :) [11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Ubit, Gavin, Bill, Selby, Andrew [11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Ada [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure where that came from [11:04] Ubit Umarov: oh new hat aada? [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Aa in danish and Norwegian is the equivalent for the letter å [11:04] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: new hat:) I've been making clothes [11:05] Ubit Umarov: ofc a cat needs to dress well [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I thought cats only had one fur [11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: this is true, we're unbelievably vain [11:06] Ubit Umarov: thats rl cats gavin.Hird [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:06] Ubit Umarov: even so ppl try to dress some [11:06] Ubit Umarov: poor cats lol [11:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I had a cat when I was a kid who liked to wear my bracelets as necklaces [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose they can always dye the fur if they need a change. [11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: but the true true story is someone making a video needed a 19thC French sailor's costume, and this hat is a piece of it [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure if cats can see the full clor spectrum? [11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: color* [11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't know - they now know dogs see more color than previously realized [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but they have 6X better night vision than humans [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that counts for something [11:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes it does [11:09] Ubit Umarov: hmm forgot but think they can't see full spectrum [11:10] Ubit Umarov: they have mirrors in back of eyes to reuse that light :) [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie. [11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm also working on the avatar morphs. trying to figure out what the SL Wiki is talking about and whether it makes sense or not [11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Jamie [11:10] Ubit Umarov: reason why we do see them at night [11:10] Ubit Umarov: when sending light to them [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Jamie [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL Wiki making sense?? :-)) [11:10] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya go figure [11:11] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everybody [11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: it's not really, so I stuffed it all into a spreadsheet and tried trial and error to figure out what the values in avatar_lad might actually be doing [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hi [11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: to convert to an armature in Blender that can morph from female to male [11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Kayaker [11:12] Kayaker Magic: Hi Ada! And everyone else. [11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: there are values labeled "scale" and others labeled "offset" and the Wiki says they're both multipliers [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: isn't that conversion in reality only morph targets? [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker. [11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: morphs affect armature as well as inworld mesh [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sort of like the DAZ Genesis [11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya they might have cribbed from DAZ in 2005. I don't have a copy of Maya anymore so I can't do a direct check [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: joint movements? [11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: the morphs re the armature deal with bone head positions [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Genesis did not exist in DAZ in 2005 [11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: OK [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: V3 and M3 possibly at that time [11:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I realized that by leaving bones connected, that my female armature is off, just by small amts in the floats, but I'll fix that while I'm in there [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually the SL rigging is implemented on M4 and V4 in DAZ [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you can make animations ther [11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and then figure out what will actually import after I'm done messing with it [11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi snakedance [11:16] snakedance moonwing: hi dont mind me im here to sit quietly and learn :) [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, snakedance. [11:16] snakedance moonwing: ~** HELLO!! **~ [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi snakedance [11:16] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:17] snakedance moonwing: hi to everyone [11:17] Ubit Umarov: this is a public open meeting [11:17] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kayaker had problems with the armature I posted at Github, and I think one of the Blender settings is not the same thing as it is in Maya ("connected") [11:17] snakedance moonwing: pls continue :) [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IDK [11:17] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: as Maya doesn't define bone lengths the same way. At least that's what I remember when I had a copy [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not going to pay $2000+ a year to find out [11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: right [11:18] snakedance moonwing: its not the length of the bone that matters but how you use it :P [11:18] snakedance moonwing: siorry i had to, now i be quiet [11:18] Ubit Umarov: always the same lie :p [11:18] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: IF I find a programmer willing to look at viewer code, it would be a good time to convert from Maya to Blender [11:19] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: in the viewer character definitions [11:19] Kayaker Magic: I was trying to use the bento armature to animesh a whale, so I deleted the legs, fingers, wings, etc and moved all the bones around to the right places in the whale body. It mostly works, but it distorts some body parts, like pulling the head back into the neck a little. [11:19] Bill Blight: you just have to make a default resting animation for it and have a custom ao [11:19] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya I think that same issue is causing the infamous neck gap when trying to combine a mesh body with default head [11:20] Bill Blight: custom bone positions almost MUST have a custom default pose associated with them or things just get weird [11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm trying to avoid custom anything. I'm trying to replicate the inworld armature and avatar mesh [11:21] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so no custom bone positions. This is a conversion from the xml values to Blender [11:21] Bill Blight: problem is if you move a bone, then the default animation is always going to move it wrong [11:21] Kayaker Magic: I'm considering just making an all new whale armature with no disconnected bones to give me headaches like the bendo armature is. [11:21] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm not moving bones, I'm building the armature from the xml definitions [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does not avastar do that? [11:22] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Already have done so with the female default, though it has errors caused by some maybe wrong assumptions. The xml files have errors themselves, so how I deal with that turns out to be important [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have errors? [11:23] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: left right asymmetries, and bone head to bone tail mismatches [11:23] Ubit Umarov: several ppl did that, even did add the morphs to blender [11:23] Ubit Umarov: just.. closed things i guess [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I just updated avastar a few days ago [11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: avastar adds another armature, with custom bone settings on all the bones. It never upgraded to Blender 2.8 and beyond very well [11:24] snakedance moonwing: armature is the skeleton? [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exported my SL avatar and it imported fine in blender and all sliders worked as expected [11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes armature is the skeleton [11:24] snakedance moonwing: :) [11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: good [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the latest version is for blender 2.9.2 [11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was having problems over a year ago with Avastar, which inspired me to dig into it. I have a subscription to Avastar - it's better for making animations maybe. I don't like that extra armature in there, it's confusing [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just download it from your product page [11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have it [11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I don't like the way Avastar handles the extra pelvis bone needed to be able to rotate it. I like that extra bone just between pelvis and the hip bones, and only one of them instead of Avastar's pelvis and Tinker. [11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: anyway. The main point of the exercise is to translate those xml files exactly in Blender if possible. Avastar works well for most things. But not all. [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have fun [11:30] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm hearing good things about Bento Buddy, and got it, but haven't tried it beyond a very simple conversion [11:30] Bill Blight: gotta bail, gotta take the dog to the vet ... [11:30] Bill Blight waves and poofs [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TC Bill [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: He left so quickly I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to Bill. [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have only casually touched BB [11:31] Ubit Umarov whispers: mb he had forgotten time and had to run? [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: prioritized viewer updates and RL [11:31] Kayaker Magic: Who was that masked man, I didn't get a chance to thank him! [11:32] Ubit Umarov: as it happens to me, all the time :) [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Kayaker [11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: he didn't want his dog to know where they were doing [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are videos about that Ada [11:32] Ubit Umarov: cat, be nice to dogs here :p [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Has anyone compared Avastar and Bento Buddy? [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have sortof [11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: kind of sort of [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: BB is probalby a lot eaier to use if you want to rig a foreign character or make animesh [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Any preference of one vs the other? [11:33] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I know Avastar really well and BB not well at all [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: easier even [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Good to know. [11:33] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya that's what I'm hearing - to add extras to video sets, very fast [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are complementary afaic [11:34] Ubit Umarov: ahh about opensim dev.. no changes during last week :( [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I noticed that as well. [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: you mean you TOOK TIME OFF? [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: (good) [11:35] Ubit Umarov: oops :p [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Couple of weeks off. :) [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well deserved time off you mean [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yup [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I was wondering if I was going to see more changes from Oren this past week but there weren't any. [11:36] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so all my blathering about the viewer wasn't a total wasate :) [11:36] Ubit Umarov: well 0.9.2 is in use at osgrid.. some devel calm is good to collect bugs [11:36] Ubit Umarov: well if ppl report bugs [11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( osgrid and other grids/standalones ofc ) [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:38] Ubit Umarov: i did change the allowed headers on that http request thing on mantis [11:38] Ubit Umarov: but yeack.. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: not that sure what should be allowed or not, really :) [11:38] Ubit Umarov: well excluding the obvius.. [11:39] Ubit Umarov: fun enough user-agent needs to be allowed now? gezz [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ? [11:40] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8881 [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: k [11:42] Ubit Umarov: so i didn't commit any code still :) [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: enjoy your vacation ;-) [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't recall seeing an error when using a custom header but I haven't recently tested any of my devices that use that feature. [11:48] snakedance moonwing: who is the lead dev of opensim these days? :) [11:48] Ubit Umarov: opensim kinda never had that [11:48] snakedance moonwing: o.O [11:48] Ubit Umarov: just most active ones [11:49] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ubit is most active [11:49] Ubit Umarov: yeah guess im [11:49] Ubit Umarov: still :) [11:49] snakedance moonwing: oic [11:49] snakedance moonwing: okies [11:50] snakedance moonwing: so i can blame everything on Ubit then? :P [11:50] Ubit Umarov: why ?? Here you can blame Dan.. [11:50] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:52] snakedance moonwing: which dan are we referring to :) [11:52] Ubit Umarov: banner ofc [11:52] snakedance moonwing: :) [11:52] Ubit Umarov: in osg he is the one to blame, by definition [11:52] Ubit Umarov: well or wiz [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but Dan is not to blame for anything code, right? [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :_) [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: The time flew by today. We are already near the top of the hour. Are there any other OS topics for today? [11:53] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: how about using "attribute" instead of "blame"? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: ofc he his.. he does compile the osgrid bins [11:54] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe [11:54] snakedance moonwing: will there ever be an offical opensim veiwer [11:54] Ubit Umarov: don't think so [11:54] Ubit Umarov: well scenegate is opensim only now i think [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok... [11:55] Ubit Umarov: but no "official" viewers ofc [11:55] Ubit Umarov: dayturn, fs.. [11:55] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: if you call anything in opensim "official" half the people here will suddenly have a preference for something else [11:55] Ubit Umarov: those do have devs looking to opensim [11:55] Ubit Umarov: well at least talking about opensim [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think my viewer works in SL any more [11:55] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Scenegate is OpenSim only [11:56] snakedance moonwing: what happens if all the 3rd party veiwers for opensim stop getting worked on [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I deliberately makes it not work in SL [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: snakedance, good question. There have been some OS specific viewers started which didn't get far. [11:56] Ubit Umarov: we take gavin close to that iceland vulcan and tell him to code to opensim or take [11:56] Ubit Umarov: a lava bath :p [11:57] Ubit Umarov: ohh he did run away already? [11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: find us a C+ (or whatever flavor) programmer willing to dig into spaghetti for no money and plenty of verbal abuse, you can haz an official viewer [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: He stood up just now. Went poof. [11:57] snakedance moonwing: do any opensim devs work on veiwer dev teams :) [11:58] Ubit Umarov: nopes [11:58] snakedance moonwing: oic [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: One big code base is enough. :) [11:58] Kayaker Magic: Gavin is our viewer dev, and we just offended him? [11:58] Ubit Umarov: in fact in past opensim devs where forbidden to look to viewers source code [11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: seriously? I didbn't know that [11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: forbidden? [11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:59] snakedance moonwing: i not meaning to offend anyone, i just curious :) [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. That was quite a while ago. No longer the case. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: bc potencial legal issues [11:59] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yikes, well we see how that worked out [12:00] snakedance moonwing: so we are essentially dependent on the peopel who make viewers for opensim [12:00] snakedance moonwing: if they all quite then we up a river with no paddle, thats scary :) [12:00] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and on the devs who develop opensim itself [12:00] Ubit Umarov: yes we are, currently [12:00] snakedance moonwing: quit not quite, sorry for typo [12:01] Ubit Umarov: see, the fact there was a open source viewer, did made opensim possible [12:01] Ubit Umarov: no one would dare to do opensim with its own viewer from start [12:01] snakedance moonwing: oic [12:02] Ubit Umarov: viewer has all the heavy work really [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: The number of people who understand the renderer in the viewer are few and far between [12:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Why Selby and Jamie are deeply involved in browser based VR [12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Commercial grids may may viewers customized for their grids [12:02] Kayaker Magic: I thought that number (people who understand the viewer renderer) was negative. [12:02] Kayaker Magic: or imaginary [12:03] Ubit Umarov: yes a few did payed devs to customized viewers [12:03] Ubit Umarov: some even payed devs to update copybots :p [12:03] snakedance moonwing: ive never owned or used a copybot [12:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: They're not illegal, as long as you don't use them to copy assets without the explicit permission of the creator. [12:05] snakedance moonwing: lol [12:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Theft is illegal [12:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and ethically and morally reprehensible [12:05] snakedance moonwing: indeed [12:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: SceneGate wants to develop other viewers, but it is slow work [12:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: any interesting changes under consideration? [12:06] Ubit Umarov: viewer code is the heavy part :) [12:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya and the data handling not much better. And all I know about is the character folder, cuz of my interest in avatars [12:07] Ubit Umarov: with exception of script engine and physics, opensim is just a assets provider/controler [12:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya it helped when you were trying to slam that concept into my brain [12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Scenegate is working on replacing Vivox [12:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that would be lovely [12:08] Ubit Umarov: yeah by mumble [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: As a result of working on some grid managment software I learned more about the OS database structure. [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, yes. I am waiting to see how that project goes. [12:09] Ubit Umarov: ohh it has a structure? :p [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, :) [12:09] Kayaker Magic: LOL [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, organized chaos. ;) [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Project goes slowly [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Most go -- bye all [12:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye Kayaker [12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeha seems there was a issue with rigths to use ICE [12:11] Kayaker Magic: I gota run, bye for now! [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, selby. See you next week. [12:11] Ubit Umarov: or something [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker. [12:11] Ubit Umarov: mumble server uses [12:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye Selby [12:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was hoping I could structure my life so I'd never have to read licensing language again... [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ohh yeah.. [12:13] Ubit Umarov: hope you don't need to read about license to breath etc [12:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: haaa [12:14] Ubit Umarov: corporation and govs jsut take rights on everything [12:14] Ubit Umarov: bahh [12:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: every time I get even a little adventurous about avatar viewer structure, avatar creation, avatar anything, I find myself looking at a screen full of legalese [12:15] Jagga Meredith: sorry ive been quiet. got RL job. Doing timesheets [12:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: gack [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Jagga. [12:15] Jagga Meredith: I'm basically Batman [12:16] Ubit Umarov: oops [12:16] Ubit Umarov: rl calls [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Out there fighting crime? [12:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Batman does timesheets? [12:16] Ubit Umarov: any fast question? [12:16] Ubit Umarov: *timeout* [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, RL is calling me too. I have to help deal with a dead rabbit in our back garden. [12:16] Ubit Umarov: cya next week :) [12:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: next week :) [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's wrap it up for today. [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.