Chat log from the meeting on 2015-09-29

[11:00] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: i think that can be useful to opensim to not only to the asp.net apps... maybe that will fix all the compatibility problems related to mono but im not sure

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab. My cat is calling for me. :P

[11:01] Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe

[11:01] Simulator Version v0.5: shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        0f6c3fb: 2015-09-14 23:37:39 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[11:01] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi everyone :)

[11:02] Marcus Llewellyn smiles. :)

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I don't see nebadon online so I can't remind him about the meeting

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab. I have a cat calling for me (at the worst time, as always)

[11:03] Marcus Llewellyn: I nominate Shez to chair the meeting. ;)

[11:03] Shez Oyen: Yer so fuunnnie

[11:03] Shez Oyen: :p

[11:04] vegaslon plutonian: not much of a turn out

[11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: We forgot to advertise free donuts.

[11:05] Shez Oyen: Hey Rich :)

[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi shez

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.

[11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Until the next feline emergency. ;)

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: vegas, it does vary from week to week

[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew

[11:06] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: woo

[11:06] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: exist a way to manipulate the content of a child non scripted prim with a script on the root? manipulate mean get/set data like name key... thx for the answer

[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wish opensim did support normal fbx

[11:07] Kayaker Magic: llSetLinkPrimitiveParams

[11:07] Shez Oyen: There's Aine :)

[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 waves...sorry I'm late

[11:07] Kayaker Magic: I mean llSetLinkPrimitiveParamsFast! never use the slow version.

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Crashed Firestorm (again)

[11:08] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: fbx, i used that in Poser 1.0 hehe

[11:08] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: not the child prim but its inventory

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: and my cat is still calling for me. Grr...

[11:08] vegaslon plutonian: can not edit inventory even when in the root prim

[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: web, you mean this ? http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSetPrimitiveParams#llSetLinkPrimitiveParams

[11:08] Marcus Llewellyn: FBX isn't documented anywhere. It's a closed format. It's been reverse engineered with some success, but any work on that would really fall on viewer developers.

[11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: As I understand it, it's the viewer that parses mesh uploads.

[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dae is fine to, as long we get rid of the 8 material limit

[11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: The 8 material limit isn't a collada limitation. It's a limitation of the LL protocol.

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd prefer a mesh format that didn't degenerate everything in to trianges.

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: triangles

[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: You'd like ngon support?

[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: while we're dreaming....one that allows double-sided faces too

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: STEP or IGES format would be nice. :)

[11:10] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: monogame uses fbx and is opensource, it has a converter

[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and user defined armatures

[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Double sided poly is a render limitation. Again... that's a viewer issue really.

[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and animation of objects

[11:11] vegaslon plutonian: 8 materials already is up to 24 textures loaded at a time from one object

[11:11] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: no no, for eg, rez 2 prims and link them , place a script in the root and the texture on the inventory of the child one and set the texture with script on the root all sides from the content of the child

[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, being able to address the inventory of a child prim would be very nice

[11:12] Hippo Finesmith: sorry im late :|

[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: although there are lots of work-arounds with llMessageLinked

[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it's a nuisance

[11:12] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: llSetLinkPrimitiveParams dont have the inventory types :(

[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: LSL is a nuisance. ;)

[11:13] vegaslon plutonian: there is also always the trick of sending a script to the child prim to get its inventory and then having the script delete itself

[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the real time visual quality of the latest Unity 5 demo is mind-blowing

[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I would kill for even half that quality level

[11:14] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (presses MakerBot, inputs data for quantum diamond computer...)

[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, the 8 face limit is really annoying. but then y ou still hav e the camera after that. and the avatars that are to big

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, But what level machine and graphics card do you need?

[11:14] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (makerbot replicates a DeBeers mining rig )

[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I gather it works on relatively low-end cards

[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no idea how

[11:15] vegaslon plutonian: ya they are baking alot of stuff though before the level even loads

[11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah, I suspect that's how they're handling it

[11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: whataever they're doing, it's pretty astounding quality

[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: That is kind of the issue SL/OS have always had: 100% dynamic world. You can't really bake or pre-render anything

[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: not at the level of a pure render, but pretty darn good

[11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Aside from existing textures

[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, that's the challenge

[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I tend to think there are optimizations in it that aren't being leveraged by the viewers

[11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh the viewers could be improved drastically. I don't think anyone doubts that.

[11:18] vegaslon plutonian: nebadon will tell you, take some of the stuff this veiwer takes and stick it in unity and it will choke

[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Takes a lot of work and you'd ultimately have to cut off some of the very old/low end when moving to newer standards.

[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think SL/OS viewers are still only working with old openGL too

[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: ^

[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: You would want a viewer that is meant for OS only so it doesn't have to be limited by SL compatibility

[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think so too....I think there are a lot of card-side optimizations that aren't been used

[11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: LL kept the viewers compatible with some very old tech. The tradeoff is perfomance and features in the rendering.

[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: They added some OpenGl 3.* support a while back, prolly around the mesh alha/beta. But likely they only did as much as they absolutely had to.

[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: AM curious what imprudence people are going todo in SL, when UDP is gone.

[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'd also dearly love to be able to use the occasional texture >1024 resolution

[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: It's possible to do that, Aine.

[11:19] vegaslon plutonian: they did cut off some compatablity when they released veiwer 2, had to get a new cpu

[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but of course allowing that will tend to lead people to use *all* higher rez textures

[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Larger textures wouldn't be hard. The viewer can aactually handle them already, you just can't upload or work with them properly

[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think only allow >1024 for UV maps would be usefull. but i hate uv-maps

[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is that a viewer-side or sim-side thing?

[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But the size is getting hugh otaku

[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: You can't upload them with the viewer, no. But they can be uploaded with other tools.

[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Some of the crashers in SL are simply very large textures that overload the viewer.

[11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Kind of like the old hueg.jpg

[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so the field size in the databse isn't limited?

[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i found the any key ! []

[11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: I've uploaded textures up to 4096 in size, just as an experiment. They work fine.

[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: interesting

[11:22] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: file size?

[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: how did you upload them?

[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I even have one or two 2048's on one of my regions. Mesh builds that could make efficient use of that resolution.

[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, not with sl viewer

[11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewers just aren't made to allow it by default. It's an arbitrary limitation as far as I know, though.

[11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Just like the 10 second sound limit

[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I used the image uploader that comes with libomv. It requires that you edit the code to allow a larger size. It's a trivial change.

[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...so something I lack the necessary skills to do

[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: too bad

[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Like the old viewer limit on prim size

[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: yeah, until LL put the limit server side too. ;)

[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah

[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Of course, LL maanged to bug things up every so often and the megaprim sets were created in that window

[11:25] Hippo Finesmith: hey vegaslon mind if i pm you after the meeting?

[11:25] vegaslon plutonian: sure

[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: on the subject of textures....is there any particular reason that sizing is forced to ^2?

[11:25] Hippo Finesmith: thanks

[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: something related to efficiency?

[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't know for sure, but I presume that's a limitation of the j2K library the viewer uses.

[11:25] OtakuMegane Desu: I think it's something with OpenGL? I read once the explanation but forgot now

[11:26] Oliver Grashnar: about the comments regarding unity wouldnt google nacl be a better option (less restrictive) and how they made unity anyway ?

[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: It is *very* annoying to me that I can't use 386 or 768 textures.

[11:26] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: aine, graphics cards require 2^ sizes, maybe not newer ones tho

[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ah

[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Especially for things like the OSSL dynamic texure functions.

[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm...

[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's just sooooooo many commericial textures I use are 600x600, 800x800 or 900x900

[11:26] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: 2^ fits with memory sizes, 128, 256 etc

[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it's a PITA to have to scale them before upload

[11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Ok, it is/was a graphics card/driver limitation. Apparently newer ones can handle a wider range of sizes and I should think even non-compliant sizes could be scaled before getting shunted to the card anyway.

[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: particularly with seamless since the scaling doesn't *always* result in a seamless tile

[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Could just be another arbitrary limitation or something imposed by the graphics cards

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: or viewers

[11:29] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: no andrew, its because at hardware level most things memory, buses etc work in powers of 2

[11:30] OtakuMegane Desu: From what I'm gathering it was a technical limitation/performance issue but isn't always now unless you're using old engines or want to retain compatibility.

[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: An limitation to optimize things for old hardware then. Not needed these days.

[11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess I'm wondering if seemingly arbitrary limitations like that are ones that could be disabled/ignored in Opensim much as prim sizing was

[11:31] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: got this problem and fix it with a directX update... not related to opensim - old nvidia GF7600GS

[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: The texture ^2 thing might be more problematic but things like prim size, texture size and sound length are entirely arbitrary. A bit of code tweaking would remove them.

[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Power of 2 isn't gonna go away... that's permanent. But it could be finer grained. Right now we have limits at 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024. But there are other possible sizes that satisfy ^2, like 768.

[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: code tweaking of the viewer or of Opensim? (or both?)

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewer

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I can only guess the viewers haven't removed that because of SL rules or something.

[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...ty

[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: That's all viewer. OpenSim could give a rats patootie about the resolution of an image asset.

[11:33] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: openJPEG too is an old version...

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I know LL chose the 10 second sound limit for example for legal reasons involving fair use.

[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I assume many also related to reasonable expectations of bandwidth available....based on internet technology 15 years ago

[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: When it comes to audio assets, we do need support for longer ones. We also need support for OGM/MP3/ACC. A PCM WAV in 2015 is just obscene.

[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Texture size would probably be a case of that.

[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or user hardware....of 15 years go

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Much older GPUs could actually choke on large textures.

[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Seems there still people that use imprudence. so old hardware.. uhmm

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Especially if you had numerous ones at once

[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods

[11:35] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: imprudence doesnt support mesh does it?

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: BUt that was like P4 days

[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: in the end though, it would be nice if that was a region designer's choice

[11:36] vegaslon plutonian: the way we use sounds in opensim mono audio makes sense

[11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think GPU memory is a problem. still valid and big textures trigger texture trashing faster

[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you want to make a sim that kills people with older hardware that's a design choice

[11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: Imp does not do mesh. It doesn't so a lot of things at this point.

[11:36] Oliver Grashnar: what about those with phones/tablets and like lumiya viewer ?

[11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, a big enough texture will still cause issues but something like 2048 x 2048 should be fine. It's uncommon to come across images much larger than that anyway.

[11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: throw it away and use good harder :P

[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hardware

[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: 4000x4000 and 4096x4096 are quite common in mapped stuff

[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but then it's 1 texture coving a whole larger mesh

[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: 2048 is really suitable for things like texture atlases, where you have a multiple UV maps for multiple objectsmaterials baked to a single image.

[11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Even that should be fine now, though haveing a lot of them would probably drag down low-end hardware

[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes

[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but again, let it be a design decision rather than an enforced limit

[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: +1

[11:38] Oliver Grashnar: +2

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: +1

[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: my own home (personal) region would destroy someone with low end graphics card

[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I don't care since I'm the only one using it

[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Prim size can be limited server-side in OS if region owners have issues with that and SL does too so there's 0 reason to still have a viewer lock. That's one thing.

[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: better woudl be if the viewer rescale it depends on hardware. but then you see something bad mabye

[11:40] Oliver Grashnar: hey best of both worlds why not offer the viewer a low res option via ffmpeg that way maintaining backward support ?

[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Newer viewers do support texture compression.

[11:40] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (thinks hard limits are a business decision to enforce useablility by the general public at the expense of gamer rigs)

[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of limits in viewers are inherited from SL since most use the SL viewer code as a base.

[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the SL viewers are not optimized at all, i have good hardware. but shadows on .. no preferrable not.because frameratddrops and things get less smooth.

[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: There are very real practical reasons to limit texxture sizes. Personally, I'd prefer that the limit was removed from viewers, but enforced server side.

[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well, I look at it as a case of if I decide to go insane in a region I'm building and the result is people with lower end cards will have a terrible visit, that's my problem....

[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: There could be an INI setting like maxtexturesize = 1024

[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if I make it horrid for too many people they won't recommend it or visit again

[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: vs if I make it okay for enough people, that's fine

[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I can live with "excluding" the bottom end

[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Even if a viewer limit is left on textures 1024 is holdover from long ago. 2048 or 4096 could be done easily now. And if people really want to use larger textures, there are other ways to get them uploaded anyway

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone pointed out the other day about abuse of texture sizes. Use of a 512x512 texture on a tiny button on a piece of clothing.

[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: much as anyone who builds with mesh right now is excluding poeple with non-mesh viewers

[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: It also doesn't help if people crank their viewrs to ultra when their hardware can't handle it. That's the user's fault, to put it bluntly.

[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes

[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: If your hardqare can't handle a ton of point lights then don't enable that feature, for the love of pete.

[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I don't know how many of you may remember the initial release of Oblivioin (the game) but it was a beast for its time

[11:43] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: Oliver Grahnar, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaikai

[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i suggest, we all start to use Real scaled avatars and buildings. that way you can use smaller textures. and then 1024 is enough

[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and it looks better too

[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but within 12 months of release just about every game on the market used that level of graphics quality

[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and actually the same was true of Baldur's Gate when it first came out

[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Honestly, a 512 is fine for *most* of what we do in here. There's just the freedom to zoom the camera right up to an object, and that is when it looks like crap.

[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and NWN

[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: In games, a user can't generally do that.

[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: for clothing sure

[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but if you're making a structure that's 40m x 60m from mesh and want to UV-map it to a single texture.....

[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *shudders*

[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: yeah, a 512 won't do it there. ;)

[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or make a single mesh to cover a 256x256 region with a custom single baked texture

[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: But there are still uses for a 512 in that use case, where materials are concerned.

[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: A lot of texture size just involves the size of what you're putting it on. If you have an object that's only going to be a couple meters in size, you don't need 1024. You'll only notice a difference if you zoom in really close.

[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right

[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so you end up mapping it to take tiled textures

[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: Where you might use a 1034 for the diffuse, a 512 or even 256 might be plenty for normal and specular mapping.

[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then have 50 materials

[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: I will purposely scale down textures if I'm only using it for a small object.

[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then you end up using 50 512x512 textures which defeats the purpose of the original limit

[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I do too

[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: That's where texture atlases come in. ;)

[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have a full set of 8x8 specular maps for generic use

[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyway....not something that we can do anything about if those are all enforced by the viewer

[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: neb is clearly soooo fired. ;)

[11:48] Shez Oyen: lol

[11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: XD

[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: He's prolly really still involved with his Encitra work.

[11:49] Oliver Grashnar: if anyones available after the meeting i could use a little help with some connectivity issues unrelated to the meeting

[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Either that or out getting a gas station microwave cheeseburger

[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: WHat connection problems ?

[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: ewww

[11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Removing or altering these limits is something to keep in mind as we get some OS-focused viewer work done. Unless someone manages to get patches in on the existing viewers or convinces their devs to do it, we'll just have to wait a while longer.

[11:50] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: what do you think about the export permission ? have a chance to be ported to the core ? is this a good/bad thing...

[11:50] Oliver Grashnar: richardus can connect locally not remotely stuck on waiting for region capabilities try 3 then timeout

[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: Export is in core. It's just not really documented.

[11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Depends how much problems the export function create

[11:51] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: there is a war on google+ for this hihi...

[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen an export option in the ini files but I'm not sure what it is really controlling.

[11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: as long as it's opt-in I can live with it even though it strikes me as defeating the purpose of an *open* simulator

[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: There is a lot of confusion concerning what the export perm is, what it does, and how it works. It's compounded by the fact that Kitely has it's own implementation of an export perm, which is not the same as the one in OpenSim.

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, opensim is being used to make closed grids. :)

[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I know

[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: The open is open-source as in the code. What anyone does with it is their business.

[11:52] Oliver Grashnar: why not change the licenece to stop closed grids?

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: yup

[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Open grids like Osgris are an anomaly, not a normal configuration.

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: There are lots of HG enabled grids running OS

[11:53] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: i belive on a real P2P metaverse but also the creators have to protect them works...

[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: one thing I would *really* like to see fixed is the setting to disallow direct HG login (HGTP) to a region

[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: There is no FOSS approved license that would stop closed grids. You're in vanity license territory at that point, and that's a terrible idea.

[11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Oliver Grashnar did you used your external ip or you mabye have router loopback problem.

[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's there but broken

[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: One, software licenses are almost impossible to change on a larger scale project like this. Everyone involved has to agree. Second, closed grids and private codebases aren't intended to be limited.

[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Aine, that's already implemented to only HG to send them to welcome

[11:54] Oliver Grashnar: richardus yes external ip as i understand it if you have loopback issue it stops connection locally... i can make account for you to see if you like ?

[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh

[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, it doesn't work

[11:54] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: why should i care if someone wants to close a grid?

[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Oliver, it's hard problem to fix. mabye someone else knows something i forgot

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have my Hedonism cklub set to disallow HG entry directly and it doesn't stop anyone from tping there

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the only way to enforce HG entry is to do it grid-wide

[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: You're clearly hiring the wrong bouncers. ;)

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nopes

[11:55] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: estates should be an easy way to limit access

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: try it sometime

[11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: If closed grids were prohibited you'd actually lose some of the development. Some people do have money invested in this but contribute for the greter good as well.

[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Aine, did you set the fallback and othe setting correct in robust ? otherwise it's not working

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes

[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's all set correctly

[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I reported it months ago in Mantis

[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Pester diva. The HG Goddess. :)

[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SL/OS is getting to many problems, wrong camera angle, wrong avatar/build size, no good mesh support, a pile of bugs., and am sure i forgot a pile of thgings

[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Although at the moment she's prolly even busier than neb is.

[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess the problem is it's way more fun to write new bugs than to fix old ones

[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and the viewers still have problems with UI scaling and cxursor position.

[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, camera spins around when you are zoomed in to an object

[11:58] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: oh the oscillations

[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: Right now, everything is in a sort of holding pattern waiting on the avinationmerge branch, anyway.

[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew ? oh not know that one

[11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: A lot of that is viewer stuff and it comes about because all the major viewers are still SL-focused. That's the big audience. They're just nice enough to include OS support.

[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: +1

[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, rotate the camera to see something "right side up" that is on the ground and then you select a piece of it, or select it for edit and the camera rotates back to some "normal" viewing direction.

[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: OnLook is being worked on for an OS-focus but there's not much else going on.

[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: It was fixed in some specific viewers.

[12:00] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: isnt any old game engine a viewer?

[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm not even sure what to do with some of the bugs I've reported since they've celebrated 1 or even 2 brithdays

[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Never seen that problem

[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I assume nobody actually goes and looks at Mantis reports that old

[12:01] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: seems to be if we want more viewers just throw some gamer clients to an opensim server and see what happens

[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: It hasn't been entirely helped that OS has long kept in step with SL and is only now beginning to genuinely break off onto its own path.

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, depends what viewer you use. I see it often.

[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Singularity for opensim

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, bake them a cake? ;)

[12:01] Simulator Version v0.5: shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        0f6c3fb: 2015-09-14 23:37:39 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bit if I bake them they'd be limited to 1024x1024 reports :p

[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: A "viewer", as defined for our purposes, is more than just a renderer or game engine. It needs to be able to render (and edit!) prims, which is a whole seperate ballgame.

[12:02] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: yep

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: AIne, I never worry about the age of bugs unless a bug got fixed and the report wasn't closed, or the bug can no longer be reproduced.

[12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah...but what are the chances of it ever being looked at an addressed?

[12:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew, u"unable to rezz cake"

[12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: little yellow triangle cakes

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, the usual problem is having someone with the interest to fix the problem and the knowledge of the code base in order to make the needed changes.

[12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods

[12:03] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (rezzes cupcake and eats it)

[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: don't type to fast for the microphone

[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Viewers are pretty much coded in C++ which is not a simple or entirely pleasant beast to deal with.

[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm watching a lot of mantis reports but I may not be able to do much about some of them.

[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew, what button you did press :O

[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: And people who know how to work with it are definitely fewer than for say Java or c#

[12:05] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: convert it to javascript :) exist a variant of javascript bullet engine

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: You see people asking for experience in C++ more than for C these days, or just usually lumped together as C/C++.

[12:05] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: i have a c++ compiler, it knows what to do, or tells me the errors :P

[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Well obviously more than C, but C++ vs Java or C# the latter are seen much more often now

[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, what button?

[12:06] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (or possibility of using a prototype system like python or other opengl frameworks to make clients)

[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: C++ is good for working at very low-level stuff though, like drivers and even direct hardware access, things which are difficult or sometimes impsosible for higher-level languages.

[12:07] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: c# was suppose to be a java killer

[12:07] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: javascript/webGL

[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: The hour has come and gone. Time to start wrapping things up unless has something else they to discuss this week.

[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: your mic where short open

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: odd. No sign of the mic being open at my end.

[12:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nopes, I need to go pretend to be productive so I'm off.....have a great week everyone

[12:08] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: Web.Rain the wonderful world of shader languages

[12:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 waves and *poofs*

[12:08] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: tc Aine.

[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: now it's open again

[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, we've had some good user conversation, but I thing the dev meeting is not gonna happen at this point. ;)

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, its doing it on its own it seems.

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I think that will wrap it up for this weeks meeting. Good seeing everyone. See you again next week.

[12:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, just let you know. that's why i do not trust build in microphones

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Richarus, perhaps its fingeritis and I'm triggering some keyboard shortcut I don't know about.

[12:10] Oliver Grashnar: so anyone able to help me out with this connection issue ?

[12:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: there's a shortcut ? :O

[12:10] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: please give a try to this

[12:10] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: http://dotnet.github.io/core/

[12:10] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: (obessing about viewers seems kind of odd, as a server should know nothing about them until one opens a channel of communication -_-)

[12:10] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: and report next week :) thanks

[12:11] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: im going to get going, bye all :)

[12:11] Bwild.Parx @sim.alamitosbeach.net:9900: tc Alicia

[12:11] Web.Rain @hg.francogrid.org: for linux users

[12:11] lavender -pretty: hello pc

[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: So, are we ready to stick a fork in this meeting? :)

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I think that's what I was already suggesting.

[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn nods.