Chat log from the meeting on 2020-07-28

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:06] Ada Radius: Hi Ubit

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Ubit

[11:06] Bill Blight: Howdy Ubit

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:06] Bill Blight: Howdy Andrew

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Here comes Kayaker.

[11:07] Bill Blight: And Kayaker beams in

[11:07] Ada Radius: good news is my av complexity is at 35K for a full mesh body and bento head. The fingernails aren't done yet but they shouldn't add much

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Kayaker

[11:07] Ada Radius: Hi Kayaker

[11:07] Bill Blight: Howdy Ka

[11:07] Bill Blight: Kayaker

[11:07] Ada Radius: using BoM

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is good my viewer does not even calculate complexity

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I've gone back to one of my standard avatars.

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: oh a diferent kind of cat today Ada

[11:08] Ada Radius: testing Ruth with Ai Austin today.

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Hello all!

[11:08] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew

[11:08] Bill Blight: Like the shirt Andrew

[11:08] Bill Blight: You aim to misbehave ?

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Bill. It is something I found over at Wright Plaza, IIRC.

[11:08] Ada Radius: Andrew - your mesh clothing was OK. It was hair and shoes

[11:09] Bill Blight: I binge watched Firefly, again, last week

[11:09] Ada Radius: haaa. I've been bingeing Big Bang Theory

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: never seen the series.. there was one no?

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Sheldon's mother is my favorite

[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I have never liked "big Bang Theory"

[11:09] Ada Radius: ya 8 seasons

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: ohh nice

[11:10] Ada Radius: the people remind me of you guys, actually....

[11:10] Bill Blight: LOL

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah i never enjoyed big bang...

[11:10] Bill Blight: except we kind of don't have a shelden

[11:10] Bill Blight: well not full time

[11:10] Ada Radius: snort

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, ok. I couldn't tell what was causing the complexity issues with my avatar and/or clothes. I didn't spend any time trying to figure it out. It was quicker to change to one of the avatars some friends of mine used to say didn't look that good. They tried to get me to get something better looking.

[11:11] Ada Radius: and re-reading Stross' Laundry series for the govt conspiracy satire and horror

[11:11] Bill Blight: a good skin and shape can do wonders for your avatar, more than clothing

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't like Big Bang Theory at first. Stayed away from it for some time before I decided to watch a few episodes.

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: ohh andrew did a slimming treatment

[11:11] Ada Radius: @Andrew - I just looked at the wire last week - those shoelaces OMG.

[11:12] Ada Radius: And the hair. But the rest was good

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: If those are the main issue I can change those items for something else.

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Looking at the time the people who will be here today are already here.

[11:13] Ada Radius: The BoM adds some abilities for system clothing - I haven't tried it yet, but if I can add specular and normal maps the way I do for any mesh, excellent

[11:13] Bill Blight: For good free mesh clothing, non ruth, check just about anything made by Taarna Wells

[11:13] Kayaker Magic: I have a question: How do I find out when CHANGED_ANIMATION was added to OpenSim?

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: not sure the avatar render code will do those ada

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I looked at the code changes this week. Mostly some changes to flotsam support and HTTP server. I can't quite tell exactly the nature of the changes without digging in to the specific change.

[11:14] Bill Blight: 2009-04-11 16:51

[11:14] Bill Blight: Kayaker

[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I am writing an article about AOs and want to be able to mention how long that feature has ben lying about

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: it kinda expects old baked that may had included a bump map

[11:14] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=217b2d93ae77925e9ebbb0ef3e9b44d47e4234db

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Bill. You found it faster than I could.

[11:14] Ada Radius: Taarna worked on Ruth RC#3. she's good

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, it has been quite a long time.

[11:15] Bill Blight: just an FYI if you did not see the mantis, there is an issue with Gloebit and Dev master due to changes in the HTTP server, thanks to Ubit, we managed to patch Gloebit and submitted a patch ..

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: And most AOs still use bad polling code from SL.....

[11:15] Ada Radius: ty Ubit. I'll mess with it and see what's possible. Some bugs turn out to be features

[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: AOs used in OpenSIm should have been updated a long time ago to make use of the event.

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: there is a server side AO also

[11:16] Ada Radius: people will use old favorites FOREVER

[11:16] Bill Blight: People should use viewer AO's, no script and more HG friendly

[11:16] Ada Radius: should

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: zhao and similar are terrible

[11:16] Ada Radius: people should use 4x4 textures instead of 1024x1024 for things that don't show, and yet. I can explain the arithmetic forever, no joy.

[11:16] Bill Blight: big thing is, viewer AO's work in no-script areas

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: the way they use colision event

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: anyone ever tested server side one?

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: not sure its current state

[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Not all viewers have built-in AOs. Would the use of viewer side AOs make it harder to share an AO with someone else?

[11:17] Bill Blight: no itdoesn'

[11:17] Bill Blight: amimations, and notecard

[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Um...RL is calling.I need to do something before some people arrive. bbiab.

[11:17] Kayaker Magic: If i wanted to monitor collision events, where in the opensim code are those events called?

[11:17] Bill Blight: in a box

[11:18] Bill Blight: same as sharing a scripted ao just without the script

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well server side has less condtions like swiming

[11:18] Ada Radius: @Andrew yes - that's the obstacle. the scripted AO's with notecards are a particular favorite.

[11:18] Bill Blight: and any "modern" viewer has built in AO's and and some point very soon viewers that have not updated, are going to start blowing up I bet ..

[11:18] Ada Radius: share the notecard and the anims, done

[11:19] Bill Blight: you realize that you can use the same notecards in viewer ao's? Just drop it on the AO floater and it loads

[11:19] Ada Radius: I did not know that. OK, I'll start preaching again

[11:20] Ada Radius: @Kayaker - if you lead with that, you might get the fashionistas to read the whole article

[11:20] Ada Radius: the ones that can read...

[11:20] Bill Blight: HAHA

[11:21] Kayaker Magic: I wasn't going to say RTFM ....

[11:21] Bill Blight: I was

[11:21] Bill Blight: R.T.F.M ... Grow a brain cell

[11:21] Ada Radius: Sry, or maybe not sry, I am snarky today. Up to draft6 of fixed high heel feet, which I hate but must provide because of legacy shoe makers. gackkk

[11:22] Bill Blight: One week till I close my grid, then "Customer Service Bill" will vanish .... Fair warning, you think I'm snarky now ... LOL

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.

[11:22] Ada Radius: haaa

[11:22] Ada Radius: WB Andrew

[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Customer service calls make me sharky, I would expect not having to do it will mellow you out Bill!

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: There are different scripted AO's. I didn't know that with some you can use their notecards in the viewer AO.

[11:25] Bill Blight: oh no ... I have to maintain a "persona" almost full time lest I slip ... I'm an asshole

[11:25] Bill Blight: hence why my new dev grid is, youcantfixstupid.wtf

[11:26] Bill Blight: :P

[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd vote for that as best grid name. :)

[11:26] Bill Blight: hehe

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: PEBCAK grid

[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: My cat has decided to take an interest in todays meeting and jumped on my lap.

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:27] Bill Blight: Meow, meow, meeowww, meoooww

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, no dangling string, fish, or birds to watch. She has gone away.

[11:27] Ada Radius: Cats are excellent stupid detectors. Not as good as a standard poodle, but still

[11:29] Bill Blight: sooo other than the Gloebit thing, I don't think Ubrokeit has caused much damage this week ... :P

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: Bill andrews cat is not mexican

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: you did meow with fake mexican accent

[11:30] Bill Blight whispers: just an FYI if you did not see the mantis, there is an issue with Gloebit and Dev master due to changes in the HTTP server, thanks to Ubit, we managed to patch Gloebit and submitted a patch ..

[11:30] Bill Blight: oops

[11:30] Bill Blight: was repeating that for new arrivals, just not yet

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else new and exciting in the world of OpenSim this past week?

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.

[11:31] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone

[11:31] Ada Radius: Hi Selby

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well i added something to old obsolete Xengine

[11:32] Kayaker Magic: I noticed that some 0.9.1 Snail Release regions are still using llcastRay V3. Is that the right thing to do with ubODE?

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: option to run attachment scripts on a appdomain

[11:32] Bill Blight sets fire to Xengine

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: so when a avatar leaves their memory is reclaimed ( if gc in on the mood )

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well like all memory saving changes, seen no effect at lbsa

[11:33] Bill Blight: I think the stock answer for Xengine issues should be, "Fixed in Yengine"

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: gc just likes to eat ram

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: That is the opposite to what they should be doing.

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeah we should move to Y

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: but dan wants lbsa on X for now

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: bc tps from everywhere

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: what else?

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: some more changes to try to prevent flotsam expires to kill the entire box

[11:35] Bill Blight: other than the Gloebit thing, don't think anything has broken this week

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: have even another slow down to commit

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: again lbsa issue

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: tons of avatar meshes and baked etc getting in disk cache

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: lbsa or any high trafic region

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: cache disk expire is jsut terrible

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well lets see how the extra slow down works

[11:37] Bill Blight: might I suggest a flame thrower?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: anyone uses it?

[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Will scripts in an attachment only use appdomain setting if it is set for the region?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: i mean flotsam automatic expire?

[11:38] Bill Blight: Pretty sure I have the expire set, will double check

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: that option is only if the main one is false

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: so only attachments will use appdomains

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Thanks, Ubit.

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: that are very bad to use..

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but having ppl arrinving and leaving all the time with AOs.. well

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but any work about saving memory is so.. frustating

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: gc just eats ram :P

[11:40] Ada Radius: What Ilan did in Kitely might work, in concept. If there's a sim with too many collidable objecte, he automatically changes them to Phantom with a message. If you automatically turn off bad AO scripts with a message, people will eventually stop using them.

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: wel this is not about physics

[11:41] Ada Radius: I know - I'm talking about how people respond to things

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and automatic things like that.. yeack...

[11:41] Ada Radius: if you want people to stop using bad AO scripts you have to motivate them

[11:41] Ada Radius: telling them won't work

[11:42] Bill Blight: I'm considering going back to having no-script permissions, for visitors

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: i did slow down their colision events :p

[11:42] Ada Radius: that's a start

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: on ubode

[11:42] Ada Radius: only if there's a message to let them know what they did wrong

[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, most opensim regions has an average of less than 0.1 users, so who cares if an AO script is bad?

[11:42] Ada Radius: otherwise they'll blame you for the bad performance

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but my current thing is like

[11:42] Bill Blight: well I have seen one bad AO script bring down an entire region

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: MEMORY STATISTICS

Heap allocated to OpenSim  : 367 MB

Heap allocation rate (last/avg): 2.071/0.201MB/s

Process memory:     Physical 2223 MB    Paged 0 MB      Virtual 5933 MB

Peak process memory: Physical 2432 MB   Paged 0 MB      Virtual 6152 MB

[11:42] Ada Radius: because of events

[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if a grid owner has a particular issue on a region, just block scripts in general

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: no reason at all to have 2GB of physical commited

[11:43] Kayaker Magic: I have a patch that tries to detect bad AO's, I knew Ubit would never accept it.

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: just put dance balls on the region :p

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: sits wont work

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ppl just stand at lbsa

[11:44] Ada Radius: It's not enough to know how the code works if you don't understand how people will react to it.

[11:44] Bill Blight shouts: this region ...

[11:44] Bill Blight: MEMORY STATISTICS

Heap allocated to OpenSim  : 123 MB

Heap allocation rate (last/avg): 0/0.018MB/s

Process memory:     Physical 296 MB     Paged 0 MB      Virtual 12844 MB

Peak process memory: Physical 343 MB    Paged 0 MB      Virtual 12885 MB

[11:44] Ada Radius: in a variety of situations

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: damm pesty users.. regions are perfect without them

[11:44] Ada Radius: haa

[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually, no. they leak memory even without users :-)

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: nahh they don't

[11:45] Bill Blight: Opensim runs fine without those pesky users

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: gc is just very lazy

[11:45] Bill Blight: mine don't leak

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: gc policy is to allocate memory fast from the respective heap top

[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a small memory creep over time

[11:45] Bill Blight: they leak on certain versions of mono/glibc but that is not a opesim specific issue

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: then release.. on day..

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: if you google, ppl cosnider it is fine a app to eat 1GB without any release

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and gc kinda does that

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: not 1GB most the time

[11:46] Bill Blight: I know if you run opensim on redhat/fedora/centos it leaks like the titanic due to old glibc in use

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: but event on a empty region it lets mem use grow

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yeah and there was the libgdi leak

[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Has any of this information been documented in a wiki page?

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: impossible to doc such mess

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:48] Bill Blight: yes

[11:48] Bill Blight: because of IDIC

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: IDIC? As in the Vulcan thing from Star Trek??

[11:48] Bill Blight: Infinite Diversity, Infinite Combinations

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: well mono 6.10.104 is now the stable release

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I was right. :)

[11:48] Bill Blight: yes

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: previus is on 6.12.89 or so

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: previe

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: w

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: they are fast adding new crap bugs :p

[11:49] Bill Blight: but it applies hard to document or even fix issues, when people are too stubborn to update and get in line with current, on both Operating system and OpenSim

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: i did move to use async/await methods

[11:49] Ada Radius: new motto: Upgrade Or Die

[11:49] Bill Blight: ditto

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: now and then i consider go back to normal threads

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: that async code is jsut pure crap

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( the generated code..)

[11:50] Bill Blight: Move forward or stagnate, and rot

[11:50] Ada Radius: ya. deal with the new stuff crap, move forward.

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeap, problem on this, it that new is not better

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: it is a lot worse really

[11:50] Bill Blight: People beg for new things, until they get it

[11:50] Ada Radius: yes, it's a PITA and full of bugs

[11:51] Ada Radius: but do it anyway

[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: If there are known bad versions of mono, libgdi, or glibc they could be noted. Another option is to say that if you have memory leaks those things could be something you need to upgrade/downgrade to either fix, or reduce, the problem.

[11:51] Ada Radius: no, people would like the old stuff fixed.

[11:51] Bill Blight: you don't gain forward momentum by being scared of change

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: but sure ms wants all to rewrite all apps to .net core, now renamed -net 5

[11:51] Ada Radius: new features, not so much as getting stuff working

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well ppl also made a total mess of c++

[11:52] Bill Blight: I don't think it is that simple, Andrew, more like, if you have THIS glibc, this particular mono, on this distro, you get this issue

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to be doing a system upgrade to Mint 20 soon. After an upgrade I always wonder what issues got fixed and what new issues I'll have.

[11:52] Bill Blight: so you'd be writing docs till the end of time

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: so fun that LOH limit of 85000 bytes

[11:53] Bill Blight: the issues is a combo problem so really hard to trace until it pops up

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, It just seems like this is a know set of factors that others should be told about even if we can't pin down specific versions of things as being bad.

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: ms guys event told to break a large array into 80kb parts

[11:54] Ada Radius: Why I like working with Ai Austin. He finds a zillion things that needs to be fixed, I fix them and break different things, he says - hey you need to document this complicated thing. Then he writes it for me.

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: on a age with 2TB ram machines

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that tells a lot how broken their thinking is

[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, Nice.:)

[11:54] Bill Blight: Gonna be honest Andrew, not interested in writing docs that people are not going to read anyway ...

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: having to think about crap android etc

[11:55] Ada Radius: By way of my saying you need a team to fix anything. no one is good at all of it.

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: if it is not broken, break it :p

[11:55] Ada Radius: ya

[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I know what you mean. At the same time I don't remember this type of information. If someone asks me about it I will say I seem to remember hearing something about it but I don't remember the details and I'll have nothing I can look at or point a user to about the topic.

[11:55] Bill Blight: Well there needs to be "official" testers that will actually spend time to report bugs, but, yeah ... when pigs fly

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and so fun

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: all the fuzz about IL code

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and now JIT totally ignores IL

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: in some parts

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: When I start using a new program I need to keep a piece of paper and a pen nearby as I (almost) always run across various issues.

[11:56] Ada Radius: I've offered to test things I know about (limited list there) and encountered nothing but hostility when I found stuff. Devs often treat the testers badly.

[11:57] Bill Blight: Very few people are willing to do server testing to the point you get more of a report than "It's broken".

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: yeap code is perfect without testing also

[11:57] Ada Radius: ya, for which you say Thank You and ask for more details and teach them how to do it right

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: we love those reports

[11:57] Ada Radius: it takes a lot of patience true

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: my region is broken, fix it

[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, it is unfortunate that OS devs are considered unwilling to listen to input from others, let alone, for them to be considered hostile.

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well to try to understand lbsa i would need to run it

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: but guess ppl would now like my 800kbps upload :)

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ---not--

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, you have an account...

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: can't debug on mono

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: its profile is only good to fill up disk with garbage.. fast

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: i did run lbsa oar on that box gavin.Hird

[12:01] Bill Blight: Well, all you have to do is look at how the majority of users talk to the devs, like they are slaves, that are owned by the community..

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know

[12:01] Bill Blight: good testers and users are in the minority

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: and get offended when a deve mentions donations

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: a dev

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:02] Bill Blight: yep

[12:02] Ada Radius: I get a lot of feedback because of the RuthAndRoth project. Some of it's useful, some not. Good manners says we say Thank you no matter what.

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: had 2 just a few days ago

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: one must fix all the bugs.. totaly for free

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: :)

[12:03] Ada Radius: yup.

[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ada you don't say thank you no matter what

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: If a person isn't a coder they aren't likely to know how to pass on information about an issue that would help in tracking down the problem.

[12:03] Ada Radius: But you can say Thank You and No in the same sentence.

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at times a plain no suffice

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well ignore also works

[12:05] Bill Blight: Andrew, lack of coding knowledge, does not remove common human decency

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: yeah human decency... a myth

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: there is no such thing :p

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Here in Norway we like to call a spade a spade. Not all like that.

[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, no it doesn't. I was only referring to quality of a bug report.

[12:06] Ada Radius: Ordinary good manners, even to the rude. I don't always manage it, but it's a goal.

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but "human decency" etc is more Selby domain :)

[12:07] Bill Blight: Sadly, in this community, "Nice" does not get you very far ...

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: wonder what corona will go on doing on that..

[12:07] Ada Radius: Nice gets you nowhere, true. Nice isn't the same thing as good manners.

[12:07] Bill Blight: read my profile

[12:08] Bill Blight: lol

[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Good manners is also a cultural thing. Not the same across the planet - Far from

[12:08] Ada Radius: Very true

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: True

[12:08] Ada Radius: One I mess up on all the time

[12:08] Bill Blight: Manners and Morals are taught, not a given, and they are not universal

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well but thats a ugly talk, far from opensim more fun bugs etc :)

[12:09] Bill Blight: hehe

[12:09] Ada Radius: "Thank you" is the same everywhere. I often don't get the need for chitchat before the real discussion, and that can be a mistake.

[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Can I ask an opensim question?

[12:09] Bill Blight: Well, it does speak to the issue with the relationship between the community and the devs

[12:10] Ada Radius: good idea Kayaker

[12:10] Bill Blight: yes

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Kayaker.

[12:10] Kayaker Magic: I noticed that some 0.9.1 Snail Release regions are still using llcastRay V3. Is that the right thing to do with ubODE?

[12:10] Bill Blight: more geek speak

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: no its not

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: What are the alternatives?

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: llcastRay V3 is something i will remove one day

[12:11] Kayaker Magic: V2, and the one built into ubODE?

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: even bullet now does better work on that lsl

[12:11] Bill Blight: ok I have to bail out ... Time to put food on the grill

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Ooh, bbq? Sounds good, Bill.

[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a bit late for bbq here

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Enjoy your food. See you next week.

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: ( bullet did not handled thos flags etc, think is does now )

[12:12] Bill Blight waves and poofs

[12:12] Ada Radius: Night Bill

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Cast ray v2 is preferred over v3? That's interesting.

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: the only thing is sitting avatars.. none of our physics engines have them to do colision detection

[12:12] Kayaker Magic: Kitely, for example, allows switching between Bullet and ubODE. Should they use V3 with Bullet but not with ubODE?

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but then that lib also does it badly

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: think not even with current bullet

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: well as i said, i wll remove that one day

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at about the 1 hour mark now. Any last minute comments or questions?

[12:14] Kayaker Magic: The old V2 code was VERY SLOW, V3 was faster

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: no idea what v2 was now :)

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: just there is a option to use physics or that v3

[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, you had raised the issue about llCastRay quite a while back.

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and physics is a lot better

[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Posted an updated viewer fro Windows on Friday. Big update for audio engine.

[12:15] Kayaker Magic: I'm still unclear what to use: is ubODE without V3 a good combination?

[12:15] Kayaker Magic: is Bullet with V3 a bad combination?

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: with ubode you should use ubode

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL had to pull their latest viewer that was built with VS 2017, people could not use it in many regions

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS and other TPV devs are very edgy over EEP

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: bullet, as i said, not sure, but think it now laso does that

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: thos flags i mean

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: adn colision code is a bit more complex than that v3 :p

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: think it is from old ode time

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: and early bullet

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: bullet had no code to do raycasts

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: think MB did add that

[12:20] Kayaker Magic: What I recall was that bullet without v2 was taking 1200ms to return from even short casts. V3 was faster.

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: bullet had no code to do raycasts

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: our use of it..

[12:20] Kayaker Magic: ubODE without V3 was faster than 1200ms, so I was happy.

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: i did made ubode do those raycasts

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: old ode also didn't

[12:21] Ada Radius: I have to log out. Thank you everyone!

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cheers Ada

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: that meant setting proper collision flags etc etc

[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ada. Thanks for dropping by. See you next week.

[12:22] Kayaker Magic: Bye Ada

[12:22] Kayaker Magic: OK, I'll redo some of my timing tests on llCastray.

[12:23] Kayaker Magic: I think I have some spare time scheduled for 2037

[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: :)

[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Let me guess... Today is your birthday, Kayaker?

[12:23] Kayaker Magic: So I cold stop asking questions for today

[12:24] Kayaker Magic: That is the OSGrid birthday hat!

[12:24] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. I didn't know about that.

[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. tc. Thanks for being here.

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't made it to an osgrid birthday even in several years.

[12:24] Kayaker Magic: Going on right now

[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it?

[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I do recall seeing some mention about it when I logged in here a few days ago. I forgot about it again.

[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I missed the SL birthday stuff too. I was in there one day and looked at one of the regions but that was all I got to do.

[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In many ways it seems pretty irrelevant with all the other stuff going on

[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, you mentioned some updates to the audio engine of the viewer. How did that improve or change things?

[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Updated from FModex to Fmod studio latest

[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, true but gives some people something to do to take their minds off of what is going on for a little while.

[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is pretty big update that significantly improves compatibility with devices, latest win 10 and audio formats

[12:28] Kayaker Magic: No mention of OSG13B on the OSGrid.org home page, their forum only mentions the 2018 parties!

[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, IIRC, there was a message that appeared in the viewer after you hit the login button prior to arrival in the grid.

[12:30] Kayaker Magic: Ah, hre is a forum posting about it: I noticed that some 0.9.1 Snail Release regions are still using llcastRay V3. Is that the right thing to do with ubODE?

[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, is that currently a change only for the Windows version of the viewer?

[12:30] Kayaker Magic: paste text error:

[12:30] Kayaker Magic: https://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6566&start=0

[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the Mac users had the upgrade some time ago, but will push a new update later in the week that fixed (for me) some issues on latest macOS

[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, it was only until the 26th. Missed the OSGB stuff again.

[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. Thanks for the information.

[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yw

[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more, it is time to wrap up todays meeting.

[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: BTW, anyone heard anything from Sheera?

[12:32] Kayaker Magic: nothing more from me

[12:32] Ubit Umarov: no guess lost deep into rl :(

[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:33] Ubit Umarov: lets hope all well

[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Hope all is well with her. I just wonder when a regular hasn't been seen in a while.

[12:33] Ubit Umarov: oh i did fix another fs bug :)

[12:33] Ubit Umarov: well proposed a fix

[12:34] Ubit Umarov: still bom issue

[12:34] Ubit Umarov: you may have it gavin.Hird

[12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: please do tell me about the bug ;-)

[12:34] Kayaker Magic: Kitely also found a missing message from FS that caused cloud avatars, They submitted a mantis to FS about it.

[12:35] Ubit Umarov: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-29903

[12:35] Ubit Umarov: sorry showing jira.. but its all there :)

[12:35] Ubit Umarov: inc original report

[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Thanks, Ubit.

[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: It will be good to have one less reason for cloud avatars.

[12:36] Ubit Umarov: that is a totally invisible avatar even

[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, that will do it for this week.

[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:37] Ubit Umarov: :)

[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a good one Andrew

[12:37] Kayaker Magic: bye all

[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Kayaker

[12:38] Ubit Umarov: its that issue