Chat log from the meeting on 2021-04-20

 [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Seem to be missing a few people. [11:03] Jagga Meredith: got two questions [11:03] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: like everybody [11:04] Jagga Meredith: I've got a random person I want to have God mode on my region. She's already an estate manager. what else do i need to do? [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, ok. Let's wait for a bit to give Ubit a chance to show up. [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi all [11:06] Jagga Meredith: hi [11:06] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi [11:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Gavin, Jamie Jagga, Andrew [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin. [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Ada [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ada [11:07] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit [11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Ubit [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Ubit [11:07] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:09] Ubit Umarov: no hat ada? [11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: mwaha glasses. To celebrate that I'm starting to crack the morphs code in avatar_lad.xml [11:10] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: needless to say, the documentatio is either missing or wrong [11:10] Ubit Umarov: well they are not there.. they are on the llm files :) [11:11] Jagga Meredith: I've got a random person I want to have God mode on my region. She's already an estate manager.  what else do i need to do? [11:11] Ubit Umarov: well teh defines and transition btns are on the xml [11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no, Kayaker did a code dump of the llm files so I can read them. Some morphs are indicated there but not the skeleton morphs [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga has the first question today. [11:12] Ubit Umarov: think there is a issue with collada and missing normals and bisomething [11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: they are in avatar_lad.xml, but trying to convert them to Blender values has been difficult. Doable, but difficult. NO DOCUMENTATION lolol [11:13] Ubit Umarov: there is a option on opensim.ini to allow estate managers to ne god [11:13] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, but that would allow all estate managers to have god powers. Is that what you want? [11:14] Jagga Meredith: sure [11:14] Ubit Umarov: ;# {region_manager_is_god} {} {Allow region manager gods} {true false} false ;; Allow region managers to assume god powers in regions they manage ; region_manager_is_god = false [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought perhaps you only wanted one person to have the powers and not everyone who is an estate manager. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, what is your second question? [11:16] Jagga Meredith: my user still insists hes seen a security orb that PM's directly to user vs local chat. anybody seen this. Ubit says unsupported by code [11:17] Jagga Meredith: unfortunately he's unable to come up with orb or code. suspect this may have been on WL [11:17] Jagga Meredith: SL [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: You could make a security orb send a message to a user. llInstantMessage, IIRC. [11:17] Ubit Umarov: if he sees that, where is the information? [11:17] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:18] Ubit Umarov: well no idea [11:18] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:18] Jagga Meredith: but that shows up in local chat, right? [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If the user has set their viewer to show IMs in local chat then that is where it will appear. [11:19] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:19] Jagga Meredith: will try [11:19] Jagga Meredith: i'm done [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Are there other questions before we go back down the rabbit hole regarding avatar mesh, skeletons, and rigging? [11:20] Ubit Umarov: well on code changes [11:20] Ubit Umarov: something happened.. don't remember what :p [11:20] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: which has nothing to do with open sim, except that occasionally Ubit does something very very nice for avatars :) [11:20] Ubit Umarov: ahh a small fix on parcel avatar hide code [11:21] Ubit Umarov: on direct login to region, a avatar could not see others on same parcel.. oops ;) [11:22] Ubit Umarov: depending on timing.. in same cases all worked fine.. ofc [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Two changes regarding log messages and a change to address mantis 8887. [11:23] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty Ubit [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: If there isn't anything else we can return to the topic of mesh, skeletons, and rigging. [11:24] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:24] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have gotten huge help from you guys, even when you're telling me I'm nuts to try [11:25] Ubit Umarov: we said that? [11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Gavin did :) [11:25] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I AM nuts to try, the spaghetti.voodoo is worse than you said [11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: but it's an interesting puzzle, and better armatures in Blender turns out to be useful to a lot of people [11:26] Ubit Umarov: thing on that is that there are more than a ton [11:27] Ubit Umarov: morphs i mean [11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya [11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and several different kinds [11:27] Ubit Umarov: no idea how long it took to make the original [11:27] Ubit Umarov: even with the original proper toold [11:27] Ubit Umarov: tools [11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: right now I'm figuring out the skeleton morphs. I'll need a programmer who has C++ and Python to help, and found one, but he has limited time and doesn't dance for free [11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: but if I can nail female to male skeleton morphs, I'll have proof of concept [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, tell the person they don't need to dance. ;) [11:29] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: haaa his words not mine. [11:30] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: There's one great SL Wiki page, I'll see where I put the link, where the essential bits of documentation are all labeled "?" [11:30] Jagga Meredith: "not even wrong"? [11:31] Ubit Umarov: why do u need a coder? [11:31] Ubit Umarov: the slider translates into a blender key something [11:31] Ubit Umarov: as i said one of those avatars packages does have several of the morphs [11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: because there are too many morphs to do it manually in a spreadsheet. Once I figure out the formula from ancient Maya to current Blender, I need someone to pull the numbers out of the two xml files and turn them into the six values for each of the 159 bones in Blender [11:32] Ubit Umarov: they did migrate them to blender.. [11:32] Ubit Umarov: well i think [11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: LL provides broken armatures for Bento armature in dae files. There was a Blender download for an earlier armature [11:34] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Avastar and Bento Buddy can be OK if all you're doing is making mesh attachments or animations. I think Avastar is pretty good for animating. But not so good for male mesh attachments. and my goal is to eventually find a way to add avatars to the viewer code\ [11:34] Ubit Umarov: yes but some did added the morphs [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Did you check the repository https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/secondlife-creator-resources/src/master/ [11:34] Ubit Umarov: think i seen them [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: has both tools and models [11:35] Ubit Umarov: no idea where now :) [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes, I downloaded all that stuff [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and all is wrong? [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no Blender conversion. No one wants to pay thousands for Maya [11:36] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Bento armatures SL has made available are, and I quote from the Bento resources page "broken". Gaia Clary put that language in, lol [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Did you try to import the fbx to DAZ studio and export it using the DAZ to Blender bridge? [11:37] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no - that's a good idea. [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is worth a try [11:38] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: even if I could pay for Maya, it's not much like the 2005 version (which I did have at one point), the definitions for bone head and bone tail are different, hence the need to do a conversion that still matches the xml files [11:39] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: i can live with the left to right asymmetries, but a bone head connected to a bone tail - the tail and head should be at the same x y z point in space, and the xml files have mismatches. [11:40] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so the conversion to Blender meant disconnecting everything. It still exported and imported OK, which makes no sense. So still a lot to figure out [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You can also ask for assitance / clarification / help in the SL creator forums and their creator meeting [11:41] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: snort. I read all that stuff. I'm occasionally the person answering questions, lol. When I can stand it. I know, I'm a total drama queen. But still. [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a lot of those people helped LL develop and debug Bento [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: That site is really slow to load at the moment. In what format are the files on that web page? fbx? [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they are significantly more likely to help you than this meeting [11:41] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: some max, some dae, two blender files, and maya [11:42] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: no, you guys ask the right questions [11:42] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: logically [11:42] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: instead of EEEP YOU ARE CRITISIZING AVASTAR YOU ARE EVIL [11:42] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: which is quite a common response [11:43] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: including my misspelling lol [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok.... [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: What is the extension on the Maya files? [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ma [11:43] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I love Avastar, I just don't think it's perfect [11:43] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and I can't use it to make a new avatar for the viewer [11:43] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ma [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I can check if my modelling program can read those files. [11:43] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty ty [11:44] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: what are you using? [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you still need to render your new avatar [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhinoceros 3D. [11:44] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: oo I haven't tried that [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: together with the old [11:44] Ubit Umarov: forget sl [11:44] Ubit Umarov: sl is about mesh avatars now [11:44] Ubit Umarov: they don't care about ruth [11:45] Ubit Umarov: ada is talking about the system avatar.. [11:45] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes. I've done that with the female, but the female to male morph - I've got the numbers, or at least most of them, but not finished building it. [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which must be rendered [11:45] Ubit Umarov: its sliders and respective morphs [11:45] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes [11:45] Ubit Umarov: er those morphs are meshes [11:46] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: some are, some are skeleton morphs, some are color morphs [11:46] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: some are physics morphs [11:46] Ubit Umarov: as we change a slide, the result is the interpolation btw two meshes [11:46] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes [11:46] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and the skeleton in some cases [11:46] Ubit Umarov: well im talkining about the harder ones :) [11:47] Ubit Umarov: others just change bones sizes.. easier [11:47] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and volume bones, for which I have 6 numbers for the arm bones and nothin else, lol [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since OpenGL limits you to the same number of bones as the Bento character, you cannot use more bones [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it can only be variations of the same skeleton [11:47] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: not that easy - the arithmetic of how the morph file changes the skeleton file. I have most of it, but not all for the female to male morph [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus if you do anything more drastic all existing animations will be off or compleltely broken [11:48] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya - there is one skeleton. well two, as LL added "pivot" values along with "pos" values, which gaia says are for mesh attachments and the inworld armature, respectively [11:49] Ubit Umarov: those keys map almost directly to blender keus [11:49] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'd love to improve the armature - it's not even close to industry standard. Kayaker persuaded me to stick to what we have, at least for now [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes there is a separate one for attachments [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which you in theory could rig to [11:49] Ubit Umarov: but don't know :) [11:49] Ubit Umarov: attach points are other thing [11:50] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: can in fact rig to. The differences between the two are so small I can't figure out why they even did it [11:50] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: If I don't change the armature the attach points won't change [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so for all practical purposes you are stuck with the rigging you already have [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you want to break all content [11:51] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so for now, I build a mesh that conforms to UV mapping, normals and the armature, but better topology. I've done that. I need to nail the femal to male morph - armature first, then mesh [11:52] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: boobs are an issue. the male system mesh is awful - the overlapping faces in the chest - because they made some unfortunate decisions in 2005 [11:53] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and BoM is in the code somewhere but not in the Character folder. C++ I am assuming but don't know [11:53] Ubit Umarov: remember sl is a lot of hacks on top of original good code [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:53] Ubit Umarov: and not all those hacks are good.. far from it [11:54] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: brilliant original concept yes. No QC, a bunch of geniuses with no project manager, looks like [11:54] Ubit Umarov: the did a lot or crap with mesh avatars in time [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: really Ada [11:54] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: didn't even check the math, or someone would have seen to connected bone head to next bome tail mismatches [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: given the longevity of the SL project, those people did an outstanding job given the limitations at the time [11:55] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya, and now they profit from mesh avatar sales - no motivation to fix anything [11:56] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so, and this is after talking to quite a few programmers, one option is to add two avatars to the viewer - male and female. Leave the old one in place. [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think I want to sit and listen to someone spouting over confidence in own abilities, while having created nothing [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you all have a good night [11:56] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: over confidence? I'm telling you nothing of the kind. Not a programmer, lolol [11:57] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: so, any opensim stuff to talk about? talking about the viewer always upsets Gavin. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:58] Ubit Umarov: parcel avatars hide works again.. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:58] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: But. I did get some useful stuff to think about today and I think you very much [11:58] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: :) [11:58] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I remember the complaints, I [11:58] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'll let peeps I know, know. [12:00] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: (it's true that the vision for a better viewer re character might never happen. but it's OK to try) [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Ada, I just finished checking. I don't have a program that can read the Maya files. [12:02] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: thank you for looking! [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: yw [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: With that, we find ourselves at the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today? [12:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya I don't either. I posted a new armature - female only at this point - at Github/RuthAndRoth/Reference/Ada Radius that shows the most recent efforts [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: sounds good [12:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: couple of people are testing it on their mesh attachments, we'll see. [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: You seem to be making progress even if it is at a slower pace than you might like. [12:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya. It's an interesting puzzle [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Last call for any other items for today before we wrap up this meeting. [12:06] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:07] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:07] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: thanks everybody [12:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty ty ty [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.