Chat log from the meeting on 2015-11-10

[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I use Avastar most of the time so my initial testing was using that [11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then I went to a basic rig in case it was Avastar that was causing the issues I was having.....it wasn't [11:01] vegaslon plutonian: and you created custom animations for it all? [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: just some basic test ones...nothing fancy [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: just a "can I move bone X" type ones [11:01] vegaslon plutonian: just have to have a animation to move them into place [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: believe me, I've put 100+ hours into trying to make it work reliably [11:02] vegaslon plutonian: I beleive you [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can make it work, but not repeatedly and reliably [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Trying to make what work reliably? [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the most annoying part of it is I don't know *why* the failure fail [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: since they won't reproduce [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or not reliably anyway [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @Andrew....attachment point rigging and animation as part of overall mesh avi [11:03] vegaslon plutonian: I would compare the two dae files since at their heart is text [11:03] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: evening all [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can animate the attachment point [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I did, Vega.....the 2 dae were identical [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the in-world behaviour was different [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so at upload something borks [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon will be here soon. [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but not reliably [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and with no consistency [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well...some of it is very consistent [11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the parts that aren't are the stumbling block [11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: any attachment point that has a space in the name is definitely a no-go with current viewers [11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which is most of them [11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the rest of them will work...but only sometimes [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and when they fail, they fail really, really badly [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the move any vertex with any weight to that "bone" to the region's <0,0,0> [11:06] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit.. [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which is a little....er....problematic [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello sorry im late :) [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: still unpacking from my trip [11:06] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Ubit, a question if I may .... Did I get it right that the fudge factor for the FPS counter in the OpenSim-software is set to 5.0 but the OpenSim.ini sets it to 1.0 for the time being? [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: couldnt find my mouse wireless adapter [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: floating in bag [11:07] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Neb :-) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello :) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: back home from Mountain View / Santa Cruz trip :) [11:07] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: welcome back then :-) [11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nice part of the world....very scenic there [11:08] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i prefer southern california myself :) [11:08] Ubit Umarov: that change is still no avinationmerge for now.. and its back to reporting normalized 55 fps by default [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.video11.com/world/engineers-flock-to-mountain-view-to-discuss-future-of-podcars-h487223.html [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: this is where i was [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt make the news though:( [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Lot's of noise. but now it get confusing 11fps and now 55fps. pfff. and SL is mostly around 45 i think [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the part of CA I like the best is the shoreline just south of Carmel [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: yea it is confusing Richardus [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I think the whole thing is doing more harm than good myself [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll see [11:10] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: and it is a lie ... [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't understand why the FPS thing has come up again after it was changed ages ago. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: well i agree to the change thinking big fixes were coming along [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: because apparently Avination members get all excited when they see a little red lag meter [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but that never happened [11:11] Ubit Umarov: well it is now a configuration option [11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew. it seems some people only start to checl things when there's a new release coming [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if i thought that was what was going to happen i would never have +1 it [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but thats the past no changing it now, we need to figure out how to move forward [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: the stat change is not benefiting this project [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: not in its current form [11:12] vegaslon plutonian: was still trying to play nice with moses [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ubit has good ideas [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: im done playing nice [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: coming from an acedemic bachground, accurate reporting of values is kind of a big deal [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: gloves are on [11:12] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: nebadon: surely new insights should be able to block something that's not a good idea? [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: If MOSES wanted real stats and the calculations for them are in place they could have left the reporting with the inflated numbers and just divide by the fudge factor in their code. [11:12] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: it would only be fair if there would be a way to read the fudge factor ... [11:12] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (not that i have any clue what this whole fps thing is about) [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not against keeping it [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but if you like intentional falsification of data....I guess that's your choice [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: if someone can prove to me its beneficial [11:13] Ubit Umarov: Normalized55FPS = false on opensim.ini SYSTEM (??) section turns it off [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not just going to accept what MOSES says any more [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not unless a core developer convinces me otherwise [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lol [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I am not going to say my true feelings on what I think is going on [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but im not going to lay down about it either [11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so having several core developers confirm that, yes, the old value was a fudged one by arbitrarily multiplying it by 5 to produce an SL-like number isn't sufficient "proof"? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: we always knew that [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: from day 1 [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps some people didnt [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: No one has talked about how script stat changes are going to be perceived when run times may suddenly jump. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: but it was not a hidden fact [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not ever [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: Teravus and I were always very vocal about that stuff [11:15] Ubit Umarov: there was no change to run times [11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: as long as you read the code [11:16] Ubit Umarov: well there is a tiny one 89ms to 90.9ms :) [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the reality it didnt matter much from a user perspective anyway [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the end result is the same [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit there has been a change to how the script run times are calculated. Some script time that wasn't taken in to account before will be. [11:16] vegaslon plutonian: it fits nicer on the bar in the viewer stats [11:17] Ubit Umarov: ( scripts that changed to nominal 11fps my need fix, of course ) [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i was always very vocal about changing those things and how it effected the viewer, we even did extensive testing to see if locking Time Dilation would have any effect on the viewer [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: adter a lot of testing it didnt seem to influence viewer behavior [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: but things like simfps and phsics fps did [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: why we multiplied it [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I'm talking about reported run times in the Top Scripts dialog box. [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: it would have been 10 times more work [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: for the same results [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: basically [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: therte was more important work at the time [11:18] Ubit Umarov: don't even thing top scrips uses that [11:18] Ubit Umarov: that display time not time per frame ??? [11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Andrew is refering to the changes from the Kitely code donation last summer [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I'm talking about separate issue not related to fps stats. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: oops ok [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya anyway we dont have to keep kicking the dead horse [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: im going to stir the pot a bit though [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: and see what floats [11:19] vegaslon plutonian: statgate 2015 [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm just saying that if the FPS stats are being changed, or can be changed due to users expectations, no on has talked about how the script run time stat changes may be perceived. They may think scripts are running poorly with the newer code. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: Cinder and I area already engaing topics on email list [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so that is good [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i find the best way to get the correct information [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: is post the wrong info [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dont mind being the bad guy now and then [11:20] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i see here 11 FPS [11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: don't worry, Andrew...if the number look alarming it will only be a matter of a few weeks/months and soemone will throw a fudge factor of *0.0000001 to fix them again [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, :D [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yea [11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bug-fixing 101....if you don't like a reported stat, multiply it by something to make it give you the number you're looking for [11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: even Einstein did that with the cosmological constant [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I am going to comment on the FPS issue on the mailing list. There is away to handle it without changing the OS code again. [11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so there's a perfect validation for it [11:22] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: are there some changes at OpenSim.ini to controll FPS ??? [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you really need to add for fun a msall wall poster with the 99 bugs .. :O [11:23] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: is there an explanation somewhere for a n00b like me why this fps stuff is so important that everyone is fussing about it?? [11:23] Ubit Umarov: options to change FPS are present on .ini for ages [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Wolf, an option was add to the ini files that let you decide whether to report the fudged value or the real value. [11:23] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: it seems like a big timewaster to me so far :) [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, pretty much, Tom. [11:24] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: ah, ok...thx [11:24] Ken Savage: But do we even know if SL reports the real value? [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi tom [11:24] Ubit Umarov: change was adding on to control if states reported to viewer should be normalized to a nominal 55fps or not [11:24] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (once avatarfest is done, i'm planning to pick up on helping out with opensim dev) [11:24] Ubit Umarov: adding one... [11:25] Ubit Umarov: with that the 5x is not even constante..  will depend on the setting of FrameTime [11:25] Ubit Umarov: so code now is a bit more a true normalization [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Tom that would be fantastic [11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @Ken: that's kind of the issue at the heart of it....if you doubt the values being reported it's hard to base any evaluations on them [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: we need more people stepping up [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If we screw with the simfps. then do it right and set it to 45. 55 is a fakke number [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: people who dont need to be asked [11:26] Ubit Umarov: its not only opensim/SL  but also regions with diferent FrameTime setting [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i cant hold hands [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: people who just do [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Just checked it, SL is 45fps [11:26] Ken Savage: But SL could be using a fudge factor too [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i can open doors [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant hold peoples hands [11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Push them true the door [11:27] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: don't worry about me, i'll kick in my own doors :)) [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: if im pushing its out :P [11:27] Ubit Umarov: dont think sl lies [11:27] Ubit Umarov: 45fps is a games standard [11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: little known fact: behind the door is an abattoir.... [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: please do :) [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: great tom [11:27] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: who needs 55 Physical FPS ??? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: cause honestly my feet hurt [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i feel like thats all i do sometimes [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: is kick in doors hehe [11:28] Ubit Umarov: physics true fps is 55fps  here on this region [11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what's the status on the 0.8.2 RC currently? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure i will find out [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: if 45 is considered a game standard SL may be normalizing their stats based on it. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: being gone a week im slightly in the dark [11:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: physicvs and simfps are both 45fpos in sl. let me find a complete empty for slae ssim to double check [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i only got in at 1:30am last night [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Last I knew there was work being done on the process for releasing new code. I don't know how much needs to be done. [11:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: empty sim 45fps top. so where is the 55 coming from ? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: Andrew someone in past decided the 55 down know the reason.. just it has been good enough for years [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:29] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: silly question, but isn't there a release roadmap that translates into the ticket system, so that you can see at a glance where the 0.8.2 release is? [11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Did SL use to be 55 at some point? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Tom that is always hard [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't even notice those bar graphs in the corner of the screen. [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no one dev has a single interest [11:30] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it looks like the necessary hooks have been added to 0.8.2 to let it know about future versions [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of changes are just bug fixes [11:30] Ubit Umarov: aurora does 45fps with a FrameTime of 22.2.. ms [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: oportunistic work [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to raodmap that [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: low hanging fruit tree [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that opensim is [11:30] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: true [11:30] Ubit Umarov: so can we.. [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Wiki: [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sim FPS - The simulator frame rate. This should now always be the same as the physics frame rate -- 45.0 when things are running well. Physics FPS - The frame rate at which the physics engine is running. This should normally be at or near 45.0. [11:31] Ubit Umarov: but will not set it as default [11:31] Ken Savage: If Ubit says it can be done, then it can be done :) [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewerhelp:Statistics [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: I think the number itself doesnt matter [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: as long as everyone knows what it means [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and it never changes [11:31] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i think we made the mistake of changing midstream [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we should have made a new non multiplied stat [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: for analysis purposes and left the viewer alone [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Its the percentage of change that is important. [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i made the bad assumption that the people writing this code would follow through with good work [11:32] Ubit Umarov: is nice physics as a integer relation with sim fps [11:32] Ubit Umarov: just because of jitter on stats [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i actually went against my feelings in hopes of a path to improved relations [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i shouldnt have [11:33] Ubit Umarov: physics engines, ode oens at least track frame time with a error around +-10ms [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I was expecting lots of things to happen with MOSES but that's more or less gone away [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: yea pretty much Andrew [11:33] Ubit Umarov: if the relation is a integer that track error is reduced [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: lots of burned bridges there [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: well beyond my bridge [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: All the MOSES work or just specific parts? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: well a lot of the tension was that their code never applied cleanly [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: this is what caused the entire breakdown [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: That would be an issue, yes. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and after a lot of analysis [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: the code wasnt that great [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: and could have destroyed opensim [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: had we pushed it in [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: everyone would have killed us [11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: And they didn't want to clean it up, etc? [11:35] Ubit Umarov: think MOSES are just having the normal pains of start working on a thing that is up for years [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: they have been working on it for years [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: like 4+ years [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: they originally approached OSgrid [11:36] Ubit Umarov: only thing i can say about MOSES is why did they failed their home work ? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and wanted to be on OSgrid [11:36] Ubit Umarov: why they ignored Intel work for example ? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but no way we could do what they wanted [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: MOSES has made a lot of claims and attempts at improvement [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and so far I havent seen any [11:36] Ubit Umarov: Intel did exactly what they say are doing [11:37] Ubit Umarov: and did publish the results [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so far its done nothing but incite arguments between all the developers [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its not good [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and now they are forking or threating to fork [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: we basically said that yes they should fork [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: unanimously [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, a lot of nice potential if they could get their ideas up and running. But it sounds like they haven't gotten too far and what they have done just isn't that great. Pretty much sums it up? [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can use the code, maybe we cant [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect most of the devs wont touch their code [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: unless its insanely good [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: not holding my breathe [11:38] Ubit Umarov: i beliece they have the manpower and skills to do nice things [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: maybe [11:38] Ubit Umarov: but.. well.. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: anything is possible [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i like to always think that :) [11:38] Ubit Umarov: bad foot on start [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i love being wrong about stuff that improves the technology [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: You have to be organized and pay attention to who and what you're working with outside the group. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i want someone to show me though [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and not just talk about it constantly [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: with no results [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Otherwise you can throw all the man power you want at something and it'll get nowhere [11:39] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: I guess we'll see as they have teamed up with InWorldz by now ... [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya we as a project need to reorganize a bit [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: regroup [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I know it feels a bit scary now [11:40] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: back to an ancient fork then ^^ [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but we are in a transtional phase [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: big big changes coming [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: I feel more excitement than fear, personally. :) [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: good stuff too [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: good that means you are actually using the software [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: anyeone who is using it and testing it well would know this [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its those who are just users [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect those people are worried right now [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: some anyway most are quite oblivious to the polotics [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but rumors do swirl [11:41] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i'm a bit worried myself, not about changes (i think the project needs some changes, but i'm a newcomer and relative outsider of course) [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen some doozies [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:41] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: but more worried about the lack of certain .. uhm.. how to be diplomatic about this.. [11:41] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: industry practices regarding sane software development :) [11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lol [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there is a sentence that could make your head spin [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: whooo [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: industry standards [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: we are inventiing a new industry here [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the standard tools do not apply always, but ya [11:42] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: who is we? [11:42] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: silly things like 'dont make "fixed some bugs" an actual commit message :)' [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: we are disorganized with the information [11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: "fixed what ?" :O [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: well this OpenSimulator project, its not like we are neceisarily competing with big industry [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i mean [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: those practices are expensive [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: this project has ZERO [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: 0.00$ income per year [11:43] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i know that... [11:43] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i've been on several other open source projects (and still am) that have the same budget :) [11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: master branch commits that say "untested...don't use this...might eat babies" is usually not industry standard either [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: 100% volunteer so we cant be expected to run like a well oiled machine either [11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: I don't think we need an ISO standard or anything. XD But some standard or guidelines do help. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we need to fix the wiki for starters [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: stuff non developers can do [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we have all these very knowledgeable people who use opensim [11:44] Ubit Umarov: Aine that is needed because a lot of people do use master on "prodution" regions [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: putting the entire documentation process on a few volunteer people who are doing nothing but fixing bugs [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its not fair [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: or even feasible [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we need users to step up [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: or it will go away [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: I actually want to start looking in some of the modules and see if I can work out better/updated documentation for things. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: bottom line [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: if the effort dwindles enough it wont even be a choice [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it will just happen [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no one wants that [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Since I'm probably not going to be contributing anything big in terms of functional changes in the near future [11:45] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: that's a pretty strong message, that needs to get out to 'the users' [11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: And stiil, the best running machines sometimes crash [11:46] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes better documentation would be nice [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm also on another project that gets donations from time to time so they do have a minor income. With so many people using OpenSim you would think it could get a few $ tossed its way now and then. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I dont know the best way to do that Tom [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: if you have ideas, all of you [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: im all ears [11:46] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: Nebadon: let me think about that, i might have a few ideas [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: great [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: everyone should think about it [11:46] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i think opensim is suffering from the general problem the hypergrid has: lots of fragmentation [11:46] Ubit Umarov: ( Richardus.Raymaker tey crash because of bugs on intel cpus not ours :p ) [11:47] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: or, as you put it yourself, 'everyone has their own interests'.. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC is coming up [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: there is a viewer developer panel [11:47] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: anyway, i shouldn't be stepping up and telling how things should be, i should be lurking and feeling out the culture before jumping in :) [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ask the hard questions [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: The other day I wanted to check some information about the UserAccounts table of the database and found it still hasn't been documented in the wiki. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i will be on that panel [11:47] Fu Barr: hey all :) [11:47] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i'm also thinking about getting this message out on avatarfest [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i will be upset if the developers are not challeged [11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: HG is fine, grids that close HG are a problem [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: you guys need to speak up and spread the word [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: find developers [11:48] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: hehe, grids that close HG are irrelevant :) [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: people who dont know this project exists [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there are a lot [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd like to be at that panel on viewer development. [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: the current developers are so overwhelmed just trying to keep things moviing forward [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have the time to be the voice [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: we are the hand [11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that needs to be worked with is viewer stuff. :) For the problems there can be, OS itself has developers and interest. The viewer few people like to touch, even in the SL world. [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya these are not easy problems to overcome [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: but not talking about it doesnt help [11:49] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: is there any formal structure behind opensim btw? [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: even if you have to talk till your blue in the face sometimes [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ughh viewers. that's a real pain [11:49] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (even informal formal) [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, in terms of code, or developers? [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: honestly persistance is about how i get 90% of the stuff done on this project [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im annoying as hell [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Neb, please stop talking before you color purple... [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not like get on your nerves annoying [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but you can never stop asking the question [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: if that makes sense [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: No matter how it's approached, getting a real Opensim viewer going is gonna be a big pain. But if we can get something decent, it could help a lot. [11:50] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew: in terms of community... [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been persistent about issues in open source code in the past. Eventually people realized there was a real problem and fixed the thing I had been complaining about. It can pay off. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and please [11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: There's been more than a few things that have had to be compromised or delayed because the viewr wouldn't support it. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: do not get upset if you dont get instant results [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it has the exact opposite effect you want to achiweve [11:51] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew: processes by which devs and users discuss the future of opensim, and come to agreement? [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: upsetting a dev never is good [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: not ever [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nicely remind them [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it goes a very long way [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its how i get stuff done [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i know it feels like you are being ignored [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nothign could be further from the truth [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, nothing formal, AFAIK. There is the core developer group, other people submitting code changes, then all the people who use OpenSimulator. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its just hard to juggle all of this stuff [11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think opensim is swinging between 2 sides now, SL that is scrhinking and the new grids that dissapoint some people [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I have too many projects I'm already juggling. I still have a code bug I want to get fixed. I haven't had the time to write the regression tests needed to show others the bug exists. [11:52] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.3.0 Dev       dd9b06e: 2015-10-29 22:14:11 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:52] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: nebadon: it is, but many open source projects managed to structure all this succesfully.. i'm not saying formalizing things is what is needed or anything.. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: oh yea we need to improve [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: there is no doubt [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: no dispute from me [11:53] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm.. lack of time.. reminds me of the story of the logger who is sawing away at a tree with a blunt saw [11:53] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: along comes someone who notices this, and says, 'shouldn't you sharpen your saw??' [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: SL as it exists has reached the end of its major development; SL 2.0 whenever it comes out will be LL's future. Which means OS is at the point there's not a lot of need to tie into SL anymore, the project can take its own path. [11:53] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: says the logger, 'no time for that, must saw down this forest!!!' [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: OtakoMegane, except opensim still not hav eit's own viewer [11:54] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (sorry again i didn't plan to be so present tonight... i think i'm becoming passionate :) [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. That's the biggest hurdle remaining in regards to splitting away. [11:54] Ken Savage: While we are gather here, I think everyone should give Ubit a big round of applause. This dev has been working his tail off. [11:55] Fu Barr: yay for Ubit! [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks applauds Ubit [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: Yes, that! :D [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: He certainly has. [11:55] Lucy Afarensis: Yay!!! [11:55] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: true, those commits are massive! [11:55] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: applause! [11:55] Ubit Umarov: Ohh :) [11:55] Ubit Umarov: thx.. [11:55] Ken Savage: Sorry to embarase you :) [11:55] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: are there any open source viewers btw? [11:55] Ubit Umarov: 2 late you did embarase me :p [11:55] Ken Savage: hehe [11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: most of the TPVs are opensourse [11:55] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: all viewers are, Tom [11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: onlt the text based radegast i think [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: All the viewers are open source I believe. [11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aaha [11:56] Ubit Umarov: they must be.. they are lgpl [11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: There have been a couple attempts at fully independent viewers but I think they all were abandoned or stalled. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Speaking of massive commits. I was having another look through the avn merge branch dump change log summary. Still need to work through reducing out the useless entries. I removed almost two hundred more lines again today. Down to just over 2600 lines now. [11:57] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: I've to leave [11:57] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: never realized the viewers were opensource, it's well hidden :) [11:58] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: bye and Thanks [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Take care, Wolf. [11:58] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: byebye wolf! have a nice {insert appropriate time of day for your timezone}! [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye wolf [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, the viewer are mostly based on code from LL since they open sourced it. [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Pretty much all the viewers are the LL viewer with some extra features and optimizations added on. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, one issue (for me), is that OpenSimulator is in C# and viewer code is C++. I have little interest in C++ although I could make some small changes. The other main issue about viewer devlopment is it is another large code base. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Otaku, and rearranged menus. [12:00] Primitive: DynamicTextureModule: Error preparing image using URL http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/stratosphere/uv_index/gif_files/uv_alert_g211.png [12:00] Fu Barr hasn't heard the full conversation, but if people are suggesting that a new viewer should be developed... well, i have bridges to sell... [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: sorry had to take a call from sweden [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: im back [12:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Andrew: C++ devs are not in great supply, certainly. It's a cluster of a language at times, honestly and not a low bar of entry. [12:00] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: the new SL viewer has replaced webkit, using the google thing. That should feed through to the third party viewers at some point. [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: getting very late there [12:00] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew: yeah, i loathe c++ myself, relative newcomer in c# (never had any interest in c# before opensim).. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Fu, what we need is a viewer that is actively maintained. [12:01] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: tricky proposition this, developing a viewer is in many aspects a whole different ballgame than opensim itself [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: C# can be transitioned to from something like Java without a lot of difficulty and is one of the "popular" languages right now. [12:02] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: so once LL stops second life, what will (for eg) the firestom developers go do? [12:02] Ken Savage: Viewer was mostly done in C++ for the speed it gives. [12:02] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: stop doing their stuff and jump to the new platform? [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, They will have to do their own coding and fixes. [12:02] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: or stay with what they know and go opensim? [12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: code for Unreal4 since I thik it uses C++ too :p [12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Until SL 2.0 comes about they will probably tweak and update their own stuff. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, they alerady have two versions. One for SL, one for OpenSim. [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: New grids are C++too [12:03] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew: yeah i know.. [12:03] juno.julma @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: hyper iso mesta [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: because C++ is best portable between systems [12:03] Dex.Laserskater @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ty [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: naw, just use C :) [12:03] Fu Barr hasnt pais any attention to SL or SL 2.0 in years. why is what LL doing suddenly relevant to opensim grids? [12:03] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: nah, c++ isn't that portable, and it's a horrible language [12:04] Ken Savage: C++ is faster, but much harder to write stable code [12:04] Sheera.Khan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Assembler for the win ^^ [12:04] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: sheera: pfff write opcodes ! [12:04] Fu Barr: c++ is miserable. but when written with some coding discipline it can be portable. [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, that's sort of why I have tried to ignore it as much as possible. There are other languages I'd prefer to use and/or learn. [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: C++ is used because it's a low-level language that can work down to the hardware level and tends to be very fast. It is not portable and is a clusterf* of a language. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: ( there are 2 versions because SL added havoc to viewers to do the mesh work, and havoc could not be used outside SL ) [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Just seeing how you output stuff put me off C++. No "simple" printf formatting. [12:05] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: there's some decent modern languages that provide the same speed as c++ nowadays, but are more sanely designed [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I need to leave. I have to help do something here at the house. [12:05] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: but they are relatively new, so less portable [12:05] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: oh crap, look at the time.. i think i need to be off as well [12:05] Fu Barr: no there aren't. not for the type of stuff you want to be doing in the guts of a viewer. And none of it will run on IRIX :) [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I still do a lot of C as I'm interested in embedded system stuff. [12:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to poof too....have a good week, all [12:05] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: i'm felling pretty energized by this session though! [12:06] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: oh yeah, i'm an embedded developer by day, so lots of c yeah [12:06] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: The languages are not going to change any time soon, so time to learn them all :) [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, if you want to help, join the #opensim-dev IRC chat. [12:06] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: but you don't want to write a project like opensim in c :) [12:06] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: andrew: already on it :) [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, you can get help and guidance there as you need it. [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. :) [12:06] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: and i was looking for the mailing list [12:06] Fu Barr: i'm sorry i came late... but before all go, was the notion of a _stripped_ bare bones viewer suggested? as an opensim viewer? smaller codebase, easier to maintain? [12:06] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (im 'gmc' on the channel) [12:07] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Physic components are written in C [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Tom, ask on the IRC channel or check the website. It is there somewhere. [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I gotta run. [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week. [12:07] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: thanks, you all have a nice evening (or whatever it is over where you are :) [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya i ahve to run to distarctions out the wordwork [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: thanks guys keep thinking on how we can improve [12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Fu Barr: There have been a couple attempts at making a viewer from scratch but I think they've all died. Don't know for sure if someone has tried a stripped down version before. [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: Thanks Andrew I think Sheera will post [12:08] Fu Barr: it seems to me that building from scratch with a limited subset of functionality makes sense. I've been thinking about somthing like that for years... [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: for a viewer? [12:08] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Opensim has managed and unmanaged components. [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ok. That has a few lines before you came in. [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: starting from scratch is like a decade long project [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure its feasible to do it 100% volunteer etiher [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: the SL viewer is the result of 10's of millions of dollars of investment capital [12:09] Fu Barr: yep. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: literally 100s of years of man hours [12:09] Fu Barr: yep again. it's a huge project. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:09] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Need to invite Linus Torvalds [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: we need something in the meantime [12:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Most likely modifying an existing viewer is going to be what has to be done. Eventually it could end up rewritten enough to practically be its own codebase but there's just too much in it to do from scratch at this stage. [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: something we can transtion in baby steps along the way [12:10] Fu Barr: in effect we're all super uber amazingly fortunate we have the opensource viewer and opensim combo at all. [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: the SL viewer is amazing software [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: even with all its faults [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: there isnt much better [12:10] Fu Barr nods. [12:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Now a bad hint, best woudl be possible the SL3 viewer [12:10] OtakuMegane Desu: True [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: some stuff maybe has better shaders [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: can access more GPU ram [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but nothing is nearly as powerful [12:11] Fu Barr: yeah - but they are 'playback' engines.... nothing has a 'modeller' built in. [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: try loading a gigant model into Unity [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: you cant do it [12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: you couldnt really load this region with all its scripts and everything into unity3d [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and display it in web browsers [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: its tooo much memory required [12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: let alone all the nieghbors too [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: get out of here [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: nothing can [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: there is litearlly nothing that can [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: nothing free anyway [12:12] Fu Barr: also the network pump is v cool. in all the 'game' engines you download a massive ball of 'art' and then play. but SL/OpenSim allows for (hook or by crook) over the wire assets. [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: look at Unreal Engine [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: go download the Unreal Engine demo [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: the demon one [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: its 4.7gb its like 2 minute long demo [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: its so stupid [12:13] Fu Barr: anyhow - i've been too scared to start a new viewer because i simply dont have the chops to do it. i'd be depressed for months with my abject failure :) [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: why not use radegast to start [12:14] Fu Barr: because my target environment would be IRIX and there's major support library issues for starters. let along opengl compatibility levels from 1873 :( [12:15] Fu Barr: on the otherhand it would positively fly on newer hardware. [12:15] Fu Barr: :) [12:15] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: SL are still actively developing their viewer, I see no indication of it going away anytime soon [12:15] OtakuMegane Desu: The fastest and most practical at this stage is modifying an existing viewer. Just need to figure out one to work with and try to get people on board. [12:16] Fu Barr: anyhow - my viewer pipedream is exactly that - and irellevant to this diswcussion for the most part - all listen to Otaku instead :) [12:18] Fu Barr: so i know i came v late and please dont repeat all the stuff, but i do have one question... [12:18] Fu Barr: what's wrong with the current viewers? i run singularity v happily. no isses ata ll. [12:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Basically, Opensim is constrained from making some changes because the viewer won't support them. [12:19] Fu Barr: 'some changes'.... [12:19] Ubit Umarov: worse [12:19] Ubit Umarov: we lost suport becaus LL removed code we needed and viewers followed or added bugs [12:19] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I frigged the new sl viewer to work with opensim, and apart from a few sillly issues it works well. The big improvement is with the MOAP system [12:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Regions larger than 256x256 for example. Opensim could have had them coded in long ago but the viewer wouldn't have worked right [12:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Fu Barr, the are running behind. and make fixes is slow. also add new special opensim things can be nightmare [12:19] Fu Barr: okay - im getting thepicture... opensim did fine when they had the SL protocol and 'compatibility' to work towards, but now opensim wants/needs to do other stuff, but the SL legacy architecture in the viewer is gettingin the way. fair enough [12:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Yep, that's a pretty good summary [12:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: You talk about the UDP code neb ? [12:20] Ubit Umarov: neb is gone :) [12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: He escaped lol [12:21] Fu Barr: not sure i can help much, given my own time contraints etc. etc. but i'd love to try some more expriments with diva's OnView viewer. [12:21] Ubit Umarov: LL moved several things out of udp [12:21] Fu Barr: is there a set of XML out there to work with so we can play with UI modificatuions dsome more? [12:21] Ubit Umarov: like appearance related things [12:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still curious if you cannot change a new type of grid software and use that for opensim [12:22] Ubit Umarov: even on http [12:22] Ubit Umarov: they moved into pipelining etc [12:23] Ubit Umarov: its ok.. those things work ok for them.. not for us [12:23] Ubit Umarov: but then they clean code they don't use from viewers [12:23] Ubit Umarov: and we loose them as "safe net" :) [12:24] Fu Barr: i rememerb spending a good few weeks with the sources at some point. i even nuked my linux workstation to run win7 dso i could run VS2010 or whatever i needed... but I didn;t get very far.... it seemed 'too big' to fit in my head and i never really found any docs to help me navigate the sources well enough - or maybe i was just too lazy... [12:24] Fu Barr: oh well more pointless chit chat for me... *chuckle* [12:24] Fu Barr: *from