Chat log from the meeting on 2017-04-25

[11:11] Arielle Popstar: so whats on the opensim agenda  today? [11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, since when do we ever have an agenda? :) [11:13] Arielle Popstar: we dont   but  sometimes  there are individuals  who do :p [11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I wanted to ask about permission testing the 0.9 (heard on mals show that they need testing) I can hold a permissions party or something. [11:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: On the agenda for the day, create an agenda for creating agendas .. [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't been doing much related to OS this past week. I have fixed a few more issues with the OpenSimSearch and OpenSimProfile modules. That's been about it. [11:14] Arielle Popstar: i was chatting to Ubit  about  permissions  and  he  said that it is waiting on Mel  because it is an area  she prefers to deal with herself [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Most of those issues where minor errors arising from switching the PHP code from mysql calls to PDO. [11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ahh yes the joys of php7 conversion [11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Ok Arielle [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The perms testing still needs to be done. If bugs are found then Mel would be the one to apply the fixes. [11:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: raises hand for a tech novice question if I may? [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isis, go ahead [11:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: ty [11:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I think anyone that wants to permissions testing can do so. One of the goals is to match the way they work in SL, so using LL's testing scripts are a good way to go. Just look for permissions ones at: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Test_Scripts [11:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: how possible is that one day it can be possible to have differen terrains in VARs? [11:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: If you see any discrepancies, just file a mantis. [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, yes. I have switched for phpxmlrpc based groups to core groups because I haven't completed the conversion of it to PHP7 and either mysqli or PDO calls [11:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: meaning for example a 2x2 and having each 256x256 with a different terrain [11:17] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thanks Marcus will check that out [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Andrew, is there an OS or Dev calendar? [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isis, I haven't played much with terrains in vars. I don't know if the terrain upload/download is still restricted to sizes of 256x256 or not. [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isis, there are ways around any limitations on terrain. Nebadon has used sculpties for the terrain. [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Isis you mean different terrain textures or different terrain heightmaps? [11:19] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: yes but not for RAW [11:19] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Selby, if you mean something like a roadmap, there is not. [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I upload huge var heightmaps with no issue with, just by allowing bigger packet size on the mysql .. [11:19] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: there are limitations in raws meaning the raw has to have the size of the var [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use .tif or .tga most of the time for my height maps, most of the time [11:20] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I mean something like a Google calendar [11:20] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: but not possible to have different textures [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Isis there is a variety of formats you can use from the console [11:20] Arielle Popstar: i thought there was [11:20] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: sorry I dont mean the terrain I meant the texture [11:20] Arielle Popstar: can load oars to specific  areas, why not terrain [11:20] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: sorry I meant to texture different instead of the whole VAR [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no textures apply to the whole region [11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Selby, if you are asking about a calendar that shows what is on the todo list and when it may be done, etc., then no there is no calendar. [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: regardless of the size of the region [11:21] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: I know Bill [11:21] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: that is why I am asking [11:21] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Not that I'm aware of, Selby. This meeting is about the only regular event, and it's been at the same time for ages. [11:21] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: how possible is that it can be possible some day? [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok thanks Andrew -- Shawn was asking [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: osgrid has an events calendar on their website. I'm not sure if that is what someone was asking about earlier in terms of a calendar. [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Thanks, Marcus [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Selby, ok, np. [11:22] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: a 2x2 var 1/4 winter..... 1/4 beach etc *dreaming about it [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Isis, I think that would have to be a joint effort with core devs and viewer devs, since the viewer would have to know how to load the different terrain textures on the same region [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Back to perms testing for a moment, the issue is coordinating the testing efforts to minimize duplication. [11:23] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: ok thanks Bill [11:23] paela argus: we use calendar only for events on osgrid but i can add the meeting core dev on it [11:23] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thats kind of why I asked [11:23] Ubit Umarov: viewers assume a single terrain, and do bake it with the same set of textures [11:23] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: yes [11:23] Arielle Popstar: if Misterblue  comes  in, he  would be the one to ask as  he  is  the one  who brought in Vars [11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have done what you are saying though Isis, with mesh terrain .. [11:24] Ubit Umarov: that was a little advanges Megas did had, bc viewers did see 256m pseudo regions [11:24] Arielle Popstar: yes [11:24] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: yes [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is some randomness to the terrain. Two viewers looking at the same region will see the ground slightly differently. [11:24] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Maybe would be good to add the core dev meeting [11:25] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: Shawn can do add this meeting, its always same day and time [11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That may be the only advantage that Megas had over vars, IMHO .. :P [11:25] Arielle Popstar: need a flexible  mesh  blanket  that can be lain over  the terrain :) [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isis, it is (mostly) until we deal with the two times of the year when the clocks change. [11:25] Arielle Popstar: i liked  megas [11:25] Arielle Popstar: had  them for years [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isis, still same grid time but different local time. [11:25] Ubit Umarov: i killed megas :p [11:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I had a love hate relationship with megas .. [11:26] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: ah is no problem the Google calendar adjusts the local times [11:26] Arielle Popstar: i know [11:26] Arielle Popstar: i forgave  you :p [11:26] Ubit Umarov: well did the actual kill.. not my decision alone .) [11:26] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: that is why most of us use the google calendars [11:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Vars are much easier on the server [11:26] paela argus: you can force google calendar on the unique time [11:26] Arielle Popstar: not that much  of a diff in my testing   Bill [11:27] Arielle Popstar: but they insisted  megas  were more of a hack then vars [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Has not be my experience, but we all have different setups .. [11:27] Arielle Popstar: very true [11:27] Arielle Popstar: no matter, life goes on [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Speaking of setups, is there anyone here using mono to run git master Robust? If so, which mono are you using? [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: me [11:28] Arielle Popstar: i am but  dont know  which mono [11:28] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I am [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: 3.2.8 on my robust [11:28] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: just checking [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm using git master Robust with mono 3.2.8 and running in to serious memory issues. [11:29] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: 4.0.1 [11:29] paela argus: osgrid use mono mono 4.0.1 [11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: 4.2.1 on my region servers [11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Have you changed your nursery size? [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: 4.0? I think that was one of the safe things. [11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I'm pretty sure my robust instance is still back on mono 3.x... would have to check... [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yes, I have nursery size of 64m. [11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Yup, 3.2.8 [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have yet to have any memory overruns on my robust [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I nice my robust to -13 [11:31] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: And yes, I've seen what sure looks like a memory leak from the outside. [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Robust will use up all the memory on the machine if I don't restart it almost daily. [11:31] Arielle Popstar: how do i look for mono version from screen? [11:31] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: mono --version [11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Server has been running since Tuesday, 04/18/2017 15:47:34 [11:31] paela argus: or mono -V [11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not real long, rebooted to update [11:31] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I restart every 3-4 days [11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: last week [11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: oops [11:32] Arielle Popstar: my last run  was  for 10 days [11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that was the wrong one [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, ok. I haven't determined what is causing the problem. Ubit mentioned "force gc" so I will try that the next time it gets up in memory usage. [11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: just updated my robust a day or so ago [11:32] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Lemme do that now and see what happens. [11:32] paela argus: osgrid restart all service 2 or 3 times per day for sure ( duplicated services ) [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'd be lucky to go a couple days without restarting Robust [11:32] Ubit Umarov: i mentioned it to test.. ( not even sure robust has it ) [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, it was a good thought. [11:33] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Robust does have it. [11:33] Ubit Umarov: ok [11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: my last longest run was 17 days .. I don't see a mem leak [11:33] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: But so far, I'm not seeing a drop in memory. [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm not even sure what it has in the way of Flotsam configuration. [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: if it uses that at all. [11:33] Arielle Popstar: Mono JIT compiler version 4.2.1 (Debian 4.2.1.102+dfsg2-7ubuntu4) [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, Hm... no drop in memory use with force gc? [11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Does anyone still get a hung simulator when they do a shutdown under Mono 4.x? [11:34] Arielle Popstar: not so far *knocks on wood* [11:34] paela argus: after 4.5.. yes problem [11:34] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Not for a while [11:34] Ubit Umarov: one needs to do it several times with a sec or so interval [11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: But <4.5 is good? [11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I will get a hang, rarely, but it does still happen .. [11:35] paela argus: with mono 4.5 opensim simulator never down [11:35] Ubit Umarov: but is more a debug thing [11:35] Ubit Umarov: and force gc even does not release everything unused in memory :( [11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I just verified for myself that Robust has force gc. It also has show stats which I will use to check memory use before and after force gc next time. [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, didn't that hung simulator depend on which mono 4 was in use? [11:36] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Okay, I just used force gc in robust four times. Memory usage actually went up. lol [11:36] Ubit Umarov: lol [11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, I certainly don't want that. I've already been having Robust use up over 20G of RAM [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :) [11:38] paela argus: 20 gb ram :o [11:38] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I have a teensy tiny grid, so I run my robust instance on an old machine with 2 gigs of memory. Robust is currently at about a gig, which seems way too much. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: leave only 16G on box, that way it will not use 20 :p [11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL ubit [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: mine hovers right around 5ish gig [11:39] paela argus: osgrid with a lot of services duplicated uses only 10 gb ram [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: after force gc it went down 300k lol [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm doing multiple 'show stats' in Robust and each time it shows an increase in both Heap and Process memory. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: there was a question earlier about whether it would ever be possible to have different terrain textures  on Vars [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, btw, IIRC, mono 4.2 was a version to be avoided due to problems with it. [11:41] Misterblue Waves: the problem with terrain textures is they are done in the viewer... you can set the four base textures but the splatted texture is built by the viewer [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes, but I have had no issues with this particular version .. [11:41] paela argus: dev can work integrate scope id for robust ? ( its great if you want run more 1 server physical and login service inventory server etc ( similator of Sl config ) [11:42] Arielle Popstar: so  it would need  viewer  modification? [11:42] paela argus: no [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Misterblue, I pointed out how two people looking at same land can see something slightly different [11:42] Misterblue Waves: Arielle: yes [11:43] Misterblue Waves: Andrew: that is true... the four images are joined depending on altitude and random numbers [11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It would need viewer modification, because the viewers pull a single baked texture for the terrain, not to mention the terrain texture tool in the viewer would have to be told about such a change [11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: If the random numbers were to use the region uptime (for example), that would minimize, if not eliminate, that issue. [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (single as in for the whole area, but in the four layers, + the heightmap) [11:45] Arielle Popstar: can the terrain texture repeats be modified? [11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ^^ [11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Now that would be cool [11:45] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: yes [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: In the time we have been talking about Robust memory usage Robust has gone from ProcessMemory usage of 3640.23 MB to 4030.684 MB [11:46] Arielle Popstar: we talking too much? [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Unused RAM is wasted RAM ... LOL :P [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: 360Meg in minutes [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :) [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Or that other axiom about programs grow to fill the available space. [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to test Robust with different versions of mono. [11:48] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: von Neumann code ;) [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Personally I never worry until the server gets over 75 - 80% ram usage ... Does not really seem to impact performance till then, and it never gets there .. [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I have 2.10, 3.2, 4.2, 4.6, and 4.8 versions I can try [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Now I did notice in my servers with less ram and swap space, the virt mem, seemed to fill up and never be freed .. ON my servers with a LOT of ram, I just turn off swap .. [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I worry when it pushes memory usage to over 30G out of 32G installed memory. [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: umm yeah, that is an issuee [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Tiny feature request: Don't store the shutdown command on command line recall in Robust. If you overrun and hit return, it goes down! [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: HAHAH [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 flüstert: YES THAT [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: YES THAT [11:50] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: "Doctor, my elbow hurts when I do this!" "Well then don't do that." [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: been there done that too many times [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Gaving, interesting but not a worry for me. Robust autorestarts. [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even so, it is freakingly annoying :-)) [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what is it that overruns? [11:51] Ubit Umarov: gc will not release mem if it "thinks" it is not needed [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: my robust autorestarts too .. but it is a pain when it happens on regions ... [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: arrow key up - you think you have the right line, and NO - you have shutdown [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. I haven't up-arrowed in the console of Robust or instances to notice that issue [11:54] Arielle Popstar: wish you hadnt told this linux noob  how to do that [11:54] Arielle Popstar: kept trying Tab [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I'll have to build mono 4.0 to have an almost complete set of 4.x [11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: set your max console history to 0, problem solved .. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice simple solution to the problem. :) [11:55] Arielle Popstar: oh i cant  do that  now that  i know  but  i am sure there  will be  mistakes [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that defeats the purpose of having console history [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: sarcasm does not type well .. [11:55] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: lol [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is never a good idea to store destructive commands on recall [11:55] Arielle Popstar: need a good smilie  for that [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, true. In my case I don't use it so I wouldn't miss it. [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: shutdown is nothing, try having a previous load oar command there after making a bunch of changes [11:56] Arielle Popstar: lolz [11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: ouch @ Bill [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or load terrain [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: been there done that [11:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: maybe confirmations on destructive commands might be a solution [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that gets annoying at times [11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well confirmations but with a switch to bypass them, when used via command script or injected command [11:59] Ubit Umarov: hmm gavin it was you who said on a blog that opensim does not suport Bento ? [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: KISS - simply don't store destructive command on recall [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did [11:59] Ubit Umarov: what suport is missing ? [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not had time to figure it out yet [12:00] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I've been unclear on whether we support bento or not for a while now. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the last time I tried my uploaded mesh was very twwisted when rigged [12:00] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Yes please to Bento support [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: AFAIK, we don't support bento. [12:00] Ubit Umarov: i do see several bento features work [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, not fully support it. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they all need to work [12:01] Ubit Umarov: well what is missing? [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the extended skeleton points are what is missing I think right? [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway, time allowing, I'll integrate the bento code into the KokuaOS viewer over the next month [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will know more then [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I love me some Kokua [12:01] Ubit Umarov: sheera have your bento avatar? [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I seem to remember that one of the sample Bento avatars from SL didn't upload properly to OS. [12:01] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002:  [12:02] Ubit Umarov: its not on OS its also on SL lol [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they did not upload properly, no [12:02] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I think Firestorm is the only viewer with opensim support that also has bento in it right now. [12:02] Ubit Umarov: FS fails to upload the angel anywhere [12:02] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I use Firestorm with my Bento avatar in SL [12:02] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: Alchemy too [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kokua for SL have Bento [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not the opensim version [12:03] Ubit Umarov: think on a meeting sheera showed a bento avatar [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Is it the fact that the skeleton, for the rigging, is missing connect point solutions in the opensim code? [12:03] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: hmm [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: for the extended skeleton [12:03] Ubit Umarov: and i showed wings :) [12:03] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Does bento have new attachment points? I'll bet it does. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: so MB you should test before telling opensim suports or not some feature Gavin ? [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it's got a lot [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, yes it does [12:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it has more, bones, but not sure about connection points [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and all cannot be loaded at the same time [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has also some 130 bones [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: vs 52 in the current version [12:04] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: That's including bones used for physics and deformation? [12:04] Ubit Umarov: Bento is 99% viewer side only [12:04] Ubit Umarov: i don't know about the 1% so far [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember who was showing off the dragon avatar. The problem with that is making sure you have a viewer that supports Bento or you see strange things. [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Mostly viewer side, but LL had I don't know how many server deploys before getting it working [12:05] Ubit Umarov: very strange things :) [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but if the viewer does not have a bone to talk to, to be mapped in world, things blow up. The world still has to be aware of those bones .. right? [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so, there is a server side to it to be sorted too [12:06] Ubit Umarov: i don't know about ll server issues gavin [12:06] Arielle Popstar: maybe avastar  has  some documentation on it? [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the 130 bones or so can be animated, where  a large number animates the face [12:06] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Is this perhaps more of a libomv thing than an OpenSim thing? [12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: for instance the hand currently has one maybe two bones but has many more in bento [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most of the facial animations that currently is done with morph targets, can be done with animated bones [12:07] Ubit Umarov: i dont have or like bento avas.. so can't test [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same for the hands of course [12:07] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: I know that digiworldz said bento is possible now but only with a viewer that supports it, so there is a server part [12:07] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: The old rig has mNeck, mHead, and mSkull. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: but what i see about bento is viewer side [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have Bento avatars but I did see a page where I could download them from an SL page. I don't remember where that page was located. [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Try FS and see how it works [12:07] Ubit Umarov: btw we do suport the new attach points, i think [12:08] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Ubit, I can send you the avatar my sister from our testgrid has... [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, Singularity doesn't support Bento. Firestorm does. [12:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Skeleton_Guide [12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think the attach points are only part of it, without bones to move, a mesh rigging, does not know how to move , right? [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I bet the complications that are server side has to do with facial animations [12:08] Ubit Umarov: see my tail? lol [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I see a red box at the end of your left hand [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see a box [12:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: the square prim [12:08] Ubit Umarov: u need fs 5.0 [12:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I see a box attached where a tail should be [12:09] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: I am in Singu. this one is blind [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probalby attached to pelvis [12:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so yeah it is in the right spot [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the type of thing that happens with Bento avatars if you don't have a Bento enabled viewer [12:09] Misterblue Waves: I have FS5..0 and I see a red box also [12:09] Ubit Umarov: ppl without fs see it on odd place [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, the version of Firestorm I have is Bento enabled but i'm currently running Sing. [12:09] Misterblue Waves: FS 5.0.1.52150 ... do I need to turn something one? [12:09] Misterblue Waves: on [12:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It is you Ubit, people are accustomed to ODD ... LOL [12:10] Ubit Umarov: see my wings? [12:10] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: yep [12:10] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: in SL with singu I saw looooong arms and hands and faces only floating eyes lol [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I see them attached correctly [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see two planks [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: no. Two things by your feet [12:10] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Looks correct here. [12:10] Ubit Umarov: have imagination.. this are wings :p [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: same here, right spots [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: What viewer are you on Marcus? [12:10] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: he is wearing 3 boxes one is red [12:10] Arielle Popstar: i see wooden wings [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I don't think attachment points are the issues, I think bones are, but I may be way off base [12:11] Arielle Popstar: with orange  box  below [12:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: are they using Bento bone/attachment points [12:11] Ubit Umarov: opensim does not know about bones.. its viewer only [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: attachment point are also an issue as there are 3 x more of them [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the rigging is the main issue [12:11] Arielle Popstar: FS 5.0.1.5210 [12:11] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: any of you is on FS now? you should see him or? [12:11] Arielle Popstar: i see wooden wings [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yeah I see him fine [12:12] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: ah ok [12:12] Ubit Umarov: that is the issue with bento [12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: should have taken a pic for those not able to see [12:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I can see them and this is the viewer (Firestorm 5.0.1.5250) I use with my SL Bento avatar [12:12] Ubit Umarov: viewers that are nice to opensim do not suport it [12:12] Arielle Popstar: what was it supposed  to look like then? [12:12] Ubit Umarov: so ppl see odd things ( and ugly ) [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: yup [12:13] Arielle Popstar: put them back  on and  i will take a pic [12:13] Ubit Umarov: SL can force viewers updates and ban older.. we can't [12:13] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: please [12:13] Ubit Umarov: sheera have your bento avatar ? [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: isis, please what? [12:14] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: Ubit to wear his wings again [12:14] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: so Arielle can make picture [12:14] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Ubit, yes I have the avatar but on my sissies account [12:15] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and our testgrid is down bc of what looks like a compiling issue with latest sources :-( [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, what sort of compilation issue? [12:15] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: haha I see them but I dont see they on the right position [12:15] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'll send it to you asap [12:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: they are boxes thought they are real wings hehe [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: That box shows what I see [12:16] Ubit Umarov: can u see ? [12:16] Arielle Popstar: could use  some texturing [12:16] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: oh Andrew you see it right [12:16] Arielle Popstar: but  i dont see whats  different about them then wings  i already have [12:16] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: our testgrid automatically gets the daily sources, compiles them and restarts the grid [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I see the wings down by the feet [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see them rotated 90 deg in 2 directions, so they stick out of his side [12:17] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: ah ok that board picture comes from Ubit [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, ok. Good thing its just a test grid. [12:17] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: I see them hanging sidewards from his chest [12:17] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: the compiler has choked on the sources for some days and the one responsible for the grid is very busy right now :-( [12:17] Arielle Popstar: i see it the way they are  in the pic [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't think why there would be any compile issues. [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, you building under Linux or Windows? [12:18] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I don't have any access to the machine so I can't tell what the problem is :-/ [12:18] paela argus: normally with bento you can create a entire avatar mesh with only 1 mesh winks work tail work with physical animation etc [12:18] Ubit Umarov: yes.. new attach points on older viewers give odd locations [12:18] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: it's Linux for sure though [12:18] Ubit Umarov: can i remove the prim and let andrew see you? :) [12:18] Arielle Popstar: but get odd   locations  between singularity and  FS too [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, ok [12:19] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: lol Ubit [12:19] Arielle Popstar: FS has  more attachment  points  even  in pre bento [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: OS has a more flexible way of storing data about attachments than it used to have so it can easily handle additional points. [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, I just pulled and built latest git master. [12:20] Arielle Popstar: i am getting all laggy again [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, don't say that. Ubit will have us looking for a new meeting location again. [12:21] Ubit Umarov: you just liked to have pretty wings and tail as me arielle :) [12:21] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I just sent a request for the logs but I don't know when I'll get them... [12:21] Arielle Popstar: him and i were here earlier  and i had  same issue [12:21] Arielle Popstar: hehe [12:22] Arielle Popstar: oh the orange box  was a tail [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I do remember that I had been working on updating the email sending portion of Open Sim but it needs more testing. [12:22] Arielle Popstar: didnt realize [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it works. It may be an issue of certificates. [12:22] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. Someone has been playing with the currency in this grid. I have money. :) [12:23] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: yayyy, -1 OS$^^ [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks wonders how he can cash it out to RL money. :) [12:24] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: I am broken -1 [12:24] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'm in debt here already^^ [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I've got $15,000 [12:24] Arielle Popstar: i see 15K too [12:24] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: wow Andrew [12:24] paela argus: yup i have test [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: interesting. I've not seen a negative currency balance before. [12:24] paela argus: but next day is removed [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Easy come, easy go. :P [12:25] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: lol [12:25] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ahhh, I had to click on the display, now I've got 15k too [12:25] Arielle Popstar: pay the cashier before you leave Isis :) [12:25] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: will do... tip for Andrew haha [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to end todays meeting. I need to get going. [12:25] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: a minus balance is not much [12:25] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: thanks, was a good meeting [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, I'm still thinking of setting up a Patreon account so people can support my work on OpenSource projects. [12:26] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I tried to pay an amount to Andrew but it didn't work out :-( [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Glad you found it interesting, Isis. [12:26] Isis.Ophelia @microgrid-sundance.ddns.net:8002: go ahead :) I will support as much as possible [12:26] Arielle Popstar: a paypal account to e-mail works