Chat log from the meeting on 2015-01-27

[11:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I closed some browser pages and it cleared up. [11:02] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: 138 ping for me....about the same as europe [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: 230ms ping here [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: was somebody displaying a video or anything [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: my laptop just bluescreened [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:03]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Hi Justin [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Win8 justin ? [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi arielle, folks [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: no, xp :/ [11:03] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin [11:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Justin [11:03] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: oh antique [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: omg your on XP still? [11:03] Sarah Kline: hi Justiin [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: it's an old driver bug which bluescreens when playing some videos [11:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha - me too, when I boot Windows up [11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well at least it isn't Win 3.4 [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tbecause the last 6 weeks my opensim server got 2 times BSOD to. getting curius if that can happen when the grid side is down and opensim region keeps running\ [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I'm very stingy when it comes to paying for an upgrade unless I absolutely have to [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: Ive been testing Windows 10 [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: my god what an abomination [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: which I probably really should now before I get owned [11:04] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: win 10m no good? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: Windows 10 is going to make Windows 8 look like Windows 7 [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:04] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ouch [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ugh [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: its so horrible [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i like win7.. hated win 8 [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats my point [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: people will be begging for 8 once they try 10 [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so the bottom line is time to *really* start campaigning Adobe to make a linux version of PS [11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: windows 10, lol. first thing you need todo is installing classic shell to replace that bad start menu [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: you cant [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: its not compatible [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes you can, i did in my VM [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and he new start menu is quite possibly the worst thing ive ever seen [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: it wont let me Richardus [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: strange. hmm. the start menu is terrible. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i coud not find anyway to force it either [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya the new start menu, no folders [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I saw a news article saying that Bill Gates was fubding a project to make drinking water from crap ... [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: its 1 gigantic list of every app sorted by alphebetical order [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: funding. [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Microsoft is seriously on drugs [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I like how Neb either loves to hates something [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: or hates [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: I really was hoping it would be good, but so far its just completely unbearable [11:07] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I wish companies would just start releasing for Linux [11:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: microsoft thinks that removing functionality = user friendly... i hate that they removed the advanced mp3 tag editor in media player [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: its strange that it worked for me with classic shell. and the still have not fixt the window header font color. still cannot be changed [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its going to totally bomb, anyone who disliked 8 or 8.1 will most definitely reject 10 [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: im not impressed. 10 is not better then 8 [11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: when is it projected to be released? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: possible it was compatible at one point Richardus [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i only just installed it [11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha. i instlled it a few weeks ago [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and first thing i did was try to install classic shell, and it just flat out refuses [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: I get a big incompatible app message [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: with no way t do anything but hit ok and close the window [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: even setting compatibilty mode it failed [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: meh [11:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: What happened to Windows 9? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: who knows, microsoft is basically leveling the field with versioning [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: there used to be Version skew between NT version and Windows version [11:09] Jak Daniels: They were afraid that borked software would detect the platform as win95 or win98 [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: they decided to end the versioning skew and start fresh with version 10 [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: they should just jump to windows MMXV instead [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: time to ask Arielle's favourite question? [11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think i betetr get another win8 before the diussapear someday [11:09] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Windows 7 support is going to end very soon [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: any opensimulator topics ppl want to discuss today? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: will have the same fate as XP with annoying task bar warning constantly [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i forget it :O [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I havent had much time while in sweden to do any testing myself [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I've been noticing some new, odd, hiccups when making a tp in the last week or so [11:11]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Blenderific? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: I will be back home on Friday though, should be back to semi normal schedule [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it seems like the entire viewer freezes completely for ~5 seconds [11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhmm, how did it end with the laptop neb ? [11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032 notices we have new chairs [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but not sure if that's at my end, or the sim end, or something new in the code [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: I returned the Lenovo, peice of junk [11:12] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: anything to or from metro? [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: replaced it with an Asus ROG G750JS [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, even happens in-grid [11:12] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: metro or maby opensim is sometimes so slow with login or freezing [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and between 2 regions on the main server [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hmm, any change to your avatar recently Aine? [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nothing drastic, no [11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and no viewer change [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and of course it's not consistent either [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: do you wear anything scripted? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ah hrmm [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that would make it too easy [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, no new worn scripts [11:13] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: When you open a large script, the viewer freezes, Windows says that the ap is not responding, keypresses on the screen are locked up, lasts overe 30 seconds sometimes. What is going on during this time? Is it a server or a viewer issue? [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I *do* wear scripts [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: I don't know. Not something I have experienced [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: we updated Encitra grid pretty recently, ive not noticed any oddities when teleporting, but i doubt we are 100% to master [11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it seems to have coincided with one of the git updates that affected script state handling [11:14] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: i see issues of freezing on a region i converted to a var from mega [11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but is that was the cause I would have expected it to be consistently reproducable [11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: at the moment it seems to be about 1 in 5 tps where it happens [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ah, ive always had some trouble after 4-5 teleports myself [11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: the temporary hang on loading a large script is repeatable [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: how large? [11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: 2000 lines [11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, not meaning 4-5 consecutive ones [11:15] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If it is fairly noticible and does happen on a pretty regular basis, then you might use git bisect to find the exact place it appears [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: heh, few ppl listen when I say that [11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: just mean that the frequency is around 20% of my tps (at a guess...I have no hard numbers on it) [11:16] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: bisect is painful [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: but smaller scripts are fine? [11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I do not know how to do a git bisect [11:16] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it is a very fast way to find an issue. [11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 is just a dumb artist [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: less painful than trying to hunt a difficult non-reproducible bug with few clues as to where it may have originated [11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I assumed that the freeze was proportional to script size, so nobody notices small script delays. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: yea, its painful if its not so easily recreatable [11:16] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: once in a while there may be some code that causes migrations, etc. that make it a little hard. [11:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ on that. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: so just for a test, if you say, halve the script length with th eproblem does it still occur? [11:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it does need to be a "stable bug", lol [11:17] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002 wishes we had a build site like singularity alpha [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: same script just chopped in half [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: if its not consistantly happening a bisect can make your search chaotic [11:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't mind a delay on a load, but hanging the ap seems a bit extreme. [11:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'll generate some statistics and get back to you [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: really, I would say the viewr should never hang. If there was a slow server response it shouldn't just become unresponsive itself [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: but that's a more philosophical point [11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if I'm the only one experiencing it then I'd look for a local cause (for instance I just added a new 3TB external drive, though I can't think why that would cause an issue) [11:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: do we publish a way to download the jenkins builds? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: you can download jenkins binary? [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: no. In principle that could be done, though they are built on an old mono to ensure compatibility [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: and people have said mono builds do not work well on windows in the past [11:18] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I presume the jenkins build isn't zipped into a pretty package. [11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yeah, but ... [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: I might have missed something. Large scripts causing a hang when used in attachments? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: Interesting, i didnt know that [11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Xamaris is producing packages for Debain and they work [11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Xamarin. [11:19] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: No large scripts causing viewer hang when opening the script to edit [11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Sooo, should we look at bumping the lowest supported version? [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: oh. I have scripts larger than 2,000 lines if you want me to go somewhere to test that. [11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I haven't experienced that, and I've been working with an enormous script all week [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I would say there's no reason to do so at this point [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I niticed that building on the 2.8.10 shows some funky errors at the end that are not seen on 3.10 [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: 3.12 [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Ok, but it is good that there is a very easy way for Debian users to get modern packages. [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: one day perhaps there will even be an opensim .deb :) [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure there is one some where [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: probably not maintained though [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, in fact I had a client who used to produce them interally - don't konw the details though [11:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I have OpenSuSE rpm, but I 'm probably migrating away from that [11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: still love opensuse. or its no linux at all, ubunto is nightmare [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have had few issues with Ubuntu [11:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I'm liking Debian as I get to know more about it. [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ive never not had issues in Linux lol [11:22]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002 has been using Debian forever. Loves it.... mostly. [11:23]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Debian is a pain only when you run into non-free drivers doing an install. Otherwise, I love it. [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not liking linux anymore, except on laptops there its running not to bad [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: OpenSuSE used to rock Mono really well, but now - can't even run the latet release. [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lol, I would run Centos before Windows [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: this sums up my relationship with Linux > http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X9IaLv5PZpg/U_D6dWhkFaI/AAAAAAAABCM/Ojf5sN49lb0/s1600/ae3Nnoj_460s_v1.jpg [11:23] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I really hate to bring up an old one but....is there any hope at all of the inventory fetch hang but getting some love in the not-too-distant future? I would so much love to be able to log into one of my own regions for a change [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: diva said one of her students had discoeved something about it [11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: haven't heard anything more yet [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: If i recall it had something to do with the Viewer [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant remember [11:24] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: can the student be cattle-prodded into revealing the details? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: didnt she file a bug report with LL at some point too? [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: slow inventory load? [11:25] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: How about the FAssets? [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and they actually acknowledged it [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think that bug report was something else? [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I cant remember [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: we do so much heh [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: about constant resending of agent update even when unnecessary [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: although maybe she did another one [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: she is in France right now, she will be home soon too I think [11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: her report to LL was about vast amount of traffic iirc [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: not vast, because AgentUpdate is regularly but not a lot of traffic [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: it's more about triggering unnecessary work on the simulator end I would say [11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: AgentUpdate is sent regularly from the viewer, even when no av change has taken place [11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyway...not something related to inventory fetch [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ive not had any problems with Inventory hang, kind of surprising [11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and there *is* an additional viewer bug about *displaying* inventory fetch [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i have a pretty large inventory [11:26] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I only did when hooking a region to OSG [11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it will say "fetching" even though fetch has completed and will only stop doing so when you clear trash [11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but that's a different bug too [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: wierd [11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (and that's a viewer bug I think)( [11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the "real" inventory fetch bug is completely repeatable and utterly crippling [11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: The FAssets, is that supposed to be comming to core, or just to OSG? [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: core [11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: cool [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: will be a 3rd option [11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I started using XAssets, but lost my server [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: we are having trouble with the restored asset drive at the moment, we are trying to figure out best solution [11:29]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: wasn't able to run many different setups on this workstation [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: they sent us a single 6tb drive [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and its hooked to the server via USB [11:29] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: wow [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: we are rsyncing data and the USB keeps going catatonic [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: super annoying [11:30] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: hopes not USB 1 [11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Heh [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: nah its USB 3 [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but we have to reboot centos [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dont use usb3 nebadon. it did weird here at home [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: everytime it stops respnoding [11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Lovely. [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have a choice [11:30] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: centos [11:30] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: 0.0 [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: well about USB version [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: so its not me that have seen the problem. plug it into usb2 port [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we are looking at options [11:30] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: might put the 6tb drive into the plaza09 server [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: LBSA plaza server [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and do a NFS mount [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and rsync over the NFS [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: should be considerably faster than SSH rsync [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: nebadon, check power supply to the external drive I've seen where a hiccup in the power can cause issues where the drive gets seen, or acts, as if it was unmounted or no longer exists. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but its not decided yet, we literally just had this problem in the last 24 hours [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we will figure it out though [11:31] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Silly thing to have to do. But if the asset server's usb is flaking, I guess you gotta. :/ [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya we are having them check it out, i had problems with autosuspend for USB on my laptop [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nasty problem, difficult to tell if it's software, usb on hw or drive issue [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: that resolved my problem [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt its a drive issue [11:32] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: They can't just pop the drive into an internal bay? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen same problem on my workstation [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: no the server is full [11:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: heh, don't need that drive to fail before it can be dumped [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Shouldn't autosuspend the USB if its inactive use [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: it has 4 x 3tb drives [11:32] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: these servers are 1U rack [11:32] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: justin, uuid gathering for an oar reads notecards and scripts, but does it for IAR files aswell? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: limited slots [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: external sata type connector ? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: but not to worry, we will figure it out [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: no, i checked the motherboard specs no eSata [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: other than this though its going well [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: both asset servers are very close to ready, now its just about getting the recovered data onto the production drives [11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Just outta sheer curiosity, what filesystem does the external drive have? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: the database is fully restored from the backups [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: alicia: it does [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: NTFS lol [11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: That's yer problem. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: nah [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: its a USB problem [11:34] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: thanks justin, was just wondering as melanie said it didnt the other day [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: were pretty certain [11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Linux's NTFS implementation is slow to begin with, and flaky when doing lots of extended operations. It's somthing I've run into. [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: all my large drives at home are NTFS [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: in Linux [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: on linux? [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: why? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: all my 2tb and 3TB [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: because i dual boot [11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Yeah, mine are too. [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: oh ok [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: I am sure we will get past this pretty quickly [11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: And it's fine until you start copying hundreds of gigs or more. Things get wonky then. [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: worst case we slap it into the plaza09 server [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and go over the network [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: internet network is gigabit [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: internal* [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: with rsync its probably not much slower than the USB would be [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: so many tiny little files [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its millions of files [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: 20 million files i want to say [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tiny files are nightmare for backup [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: you're going to have lots of files with a filesystem asset approach [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: though I'm sure your familiar with the issues from using sras [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: backup wont be a problem [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: we are using network RAID [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: pretty cool [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: a different RAID scheme now I hope :) [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: we will have 4 copies of assets basically [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: altough I guess if the controller fails that's really something else [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: seems a very weak point in the chain [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: we have 2 servers now [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: RAID 10 on each box [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: 6tb Mirrored [11:38]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: raid is not backup, it's redundancy. [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: so 4 copies of each [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: one of the servers is backup only [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont be live for asset retreival [11:39]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: backup allows you to go back and recover things you deleted or overwrote, raid doesnt [11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and what happens if server A get bad data. thats nots aved to dsrive B ? [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Its also possible for bad data to get backed up [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: whenever you have major failure like that there will be some loss, should be minimal [11:40] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it is possible to back up bad data but theres usually several versions available [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: considering we have limited funds this is the best we can do [11:41]  Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Possibly depending on how backups are done [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: if we had LL money sure, we could have 100 copies like they do [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's what you can do in the resources available [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: with [11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032 nods [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: even with the catstrophic failure we had [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: there was no loss [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it just took forever to get the data recovered [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: Oh, so you got it all back in the end? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: nice [11:41] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that's nice [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: hence the hold up [11:41]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: if something happens that wipes one, it will likely happen to the other [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: It seemed touch and go for a while as to whether the data was recoverable [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yea I was pretty skeptical for a while [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but with 20 million files its not a fast process [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: good news that nothing appears to have been lost [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess they had incentive to get paid [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: do they ever ask, wtf is this nonsense? :) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: nah [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure they deal with stuff like this a lot [11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: file names uuid or hash? [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: its hash [11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: the file names and folder structures are all hash [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think I saw Timothy Rogers say they had continued with sras dev [11:43]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I seem to remember that they kept asking at first just how many files we could afford to lose, not understanding that without all of it it was worthless. Heh. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt surprise me [11:43]  Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Do the files have extra info to recover the db from just the assets? [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ive helped a lot of people get sras working [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: i beleive i helped them at one point [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: it works very well [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: id rather see core benefit at this point though [11:44] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: ++ [11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: +1 [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We will have good coverage for asset server options [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i mean as large as osgrid assets were [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its still tiny [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: compared to SL [11:45]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: SL is 200 times the size of OSgrid [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of # of assets more even [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its in the 100's of billions by now im sure [11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: That's when you need good deduping [11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: think of all those pine cubes and spheres..... [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: SL spends millions on their asset cluster every year [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have lost assets in SL before several times [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I think there are priobably some interesting advanced ways you could compress stuff [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: they pay 25k$ per license per server per year according to adam [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: just for the license [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: they could probably use it to generate entropy for cryptography applications :D [11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: That seems excessive [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: several years ago they had 150 servers [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: it must be much larger by now [11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: What licence is costingthem 25k? [11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: SL does have some sort of cold storage mechanism, but I remember no details. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: well now they are moving to the cloud [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: s/l shrinking in land [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: so im sure its changing [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: I forget the softare they used now [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: Adam had a lot of inside knowledge of how LL worked [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: he was one of their largest customers for a long time [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: until Anshe chung bough his estate [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: next to her he was #2 or #3 [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but anyway, things are moving at OSgrid, wish i had an ETA, but this stuff will take time [11:50] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Thanks for the update. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: we will hopefully have weekly updates, ALlen has been doing weekly updates [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: http://news.osgrid.org [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: for those who are not watching already [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, it's nice that he's doing that [11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea Allen has been awesome [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: without him this would be much slower going [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i just do not have the time [11:51] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: are you using Melanie's asset server code? [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: would have made a world of difference if that had been happening weekly since the actual crash itself instead of 4 months of almost utter silence [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: we will be [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: we are not that far along yet [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: right now we have MySQL recovered [11:51] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I didnt see it go into core [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and converted to format that will work with FSassets [11:52] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: did I miss it? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya it hasnt yet [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we dont even have it on our box yet [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: soon [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we are all focused on getting assets transfered right now [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie has hands on the box and has been also working hard at this [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: shes done a lot [11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: nice that it will be a full recovery. [11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: That will make a lot of people really happy. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: I am glad that after all this time and money we spent that it worked out [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I was very afraid we were going to have to tell everyone we spend all that money only to loose the data [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: however they would have refunded us some money had we not been able to recover [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it still would have stung though [11:55] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: wonder what percentage of the users had iars [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say, probably quite low [11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I didn't have a current one...just one from Nov 2013 [11:56] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: or wouldnt have had inventories on other grids they could have used [11:56] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I have to admit, my latest IAR was not the freshest. But I wouldn't have lost much. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yea I didnt loose much, only because i hadnt been very active on OSgrid for a while [11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and stupidly all my oars were no-asset ones except for one from Feb [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think i lost anything [11:57] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: My goal is one IAR a month. I sometimes, but not often, live up to that. Heh. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: between my iars and oars [11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still the change of recovering with small assets on disk is more easy then one big file [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i had a lot of my stuff replicated on Avacon Grid and Encitra grid and this grid [11:57] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032 never had an iar of stuff from osgrid [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: luckily everyone has my stuff [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: the one upside of giving absolutely everything you make away for free [11:57] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: I didn't have much there so it wouldn't have mattered if I lost everything [11:57] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: spread the love eh [11:58]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: somebody wake up Justin [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: murf [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I was enjoying a nice peaceful time without arguing :) [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: :) [11:59] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: How dare you. ;) [11:59] Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ;) [11:59] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Justin, them's fightin' words. ;P [11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...I just thought you were experiencing user latency :p [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: nah, just contemplating the complexity of the system [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: and how hard it is to pin problems down, both on developer and user side [12:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: complexity? [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim is the nearest thing I know to an operating system without being an operating system [12:00] Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: ok, I'm going to head out. I need to concentrate on the additions changes to the data for my Android App that I've been working on over the last couple of weeks. [12:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrBdYmStZJ4 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: totally justin right now [12:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Then the viewer is a black hole in itsself [12:01] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Andrew, what kind of app? [12:02] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: (i resisted asking!) [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I make one change to fix something and something else may or may not break [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: oh well [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: we're all viruses, neb :) [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I'm going to look at another problem. See you guys around [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: kk [12:03]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Take care, Justin. [12:03]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: bye all [12:03]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: waves [12:03]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: see ya [12:03]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: tc Justin [12:03]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Take care Justin [12:03]  Andrew.Hellershanks @tanglegrid.net:8032: Dahlia, Enter an amateur radio callsign and it look up the call and returns information about the call (entity name, continent, zone info, lat/long, grid square) [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :) [12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: /em os off too [12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: have a great week everyone [12:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Bye Dahlia [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves