Chat log from the meeting on 2007-12-11

[10:57] Charles Krinkeb: Morning

[10:57] Teravus Ousley: Good morning :D

[10:58] Charles Krinkeb: Maybe we should head out into the "Texture Garden" for this meeting?

[10:58] Charles Krinkeb: Oops

[10:58] Teravus Ousley: heh, we've had some modifications :S

[10:59] Charles Krinkeb: Its evolving. You should see the building, forest, lake and stream on the other side of the main building.

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: i still dont see any textures here

[10:59] Teravus Ousley: I saw that.

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: everything is grey

[10:59] Teravus Ousley: and the impromptu mountain :D

[10:59] Teravus Ousley:.

[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: It will evolve as it evolves. We need to stress the sim software a bit

[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: Sorry, you see gray, Nebadon.

[11:00] Teravus Ousley: I'm seeing full textures, full everything, nebadon :D

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: i havent seen textures here in quite some time

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: not sure why

[11:00] Teravus Ousley: lol, the good *and* the bad :D

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: like 2 weeks

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: 3 weeks i mean

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: last 3 meetings

[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: mw is working on texture download, isn't he?

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: yea i saw that

[11:01] Charles Krinkeb: I cleared the cache in my client. Things were gray for a while and now most have filled in.

[11:01] Teravus Ousley: yeh, mw is working on texture downloads

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: let me relog

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: see if it fixes it

[11:01] Charles Krinkeb: I would suggest a minimum of relog for the next hour

[11:01] Teravus Ousley: I've got quite a store of textures from my work over at the Wyrm Isles.. :D

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: charles, what physics are we on today?

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: ode?

[11:02] Charles Krinkeb: I have noticed that more then one avatar logging in at the same time appears to be a problem.

[11:02] Teravus Ousley: ODE

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: nope

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: still grey

[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: I take it that problems is mantis'd ?

[11:03] Charles Krinkeb: You would have to ask those who see gray textures.

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, the login problem

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: thats what i see

[11:03] Charles Krinkeb: Its anecdotal

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: might be some kind of locking issue - you won't see that consistently...

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: although I guess all that should be read only...

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: charles, it will probably always be anecdotal :)

[11:04] Charles Krinkeb: There are writes to the assets table when an avatar logs in.

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: I would guess that wouldn't be enough to kill login

[11:04] Chillken Proto: i see textures on some of the hedges, but not other hedges...

[11:05] Charles Krinkeb: All I can say is that several logging in at once appear to fail all.

[11:05] Charles Krinkeb: or perhaps most

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: we need logging in stress testing :)

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I presume no useful exception info comes out of the failure?

[11:05] Charles Krinkeb: We are doing the stress testing right now

[11:05] Neas Bade: I can see lots of people, though a few tings aren't textured

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea same here Neas

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i just took this screenshot of what i see

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i see maybe 3 textures on the entire sim

[11:06] Neas Bade: I see a few more than that

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I see quit a few more too

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: after some time of not seeing much at all

[11:06] More Wright: yeah I'm seing some things textured and somethings not

[11:07] Neas Bade: ah, we're pre the animation fixes

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: grid mode cant go past 2644

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: without it breaking

[11:07] Neas Bade: gotcha

[11:07] More Wright: what revision is this region on? and what are the various grid servers on?

[11:08] Charles Krinkeb: r2628 for UGAI and the plazas

[11:08] More Wright: but hey at least everyone is wearing clothes, not a single grey avatar in sight

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:08] Neas Bade: :)

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i do see people normally

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: just not prims

[11:08] Charles Krinkeb: How shall we proceed, Neas?

[11:09] Neas Bade: man, looking at me for fearless leadership isn't? ;)

[11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Maybe the first of business is "who conducts this meeting each week?". I cannot.

[11:10] More Wright: well I did some work on textures in about 2641, so once we are upto that, we can see what problems are left

[11:10] Neas Bade: I'd personally like to hear how the grid texture wars are going, if MW and Tervus want to educate us

[11:10] Neas Bade: ok

[11:10] Charles Krinkeb: Mw, Teravus, you have the floors, gray and all.

[11:10] Neas Bade: has anyone had the ability to run the mysql inventory autocreate stuff again since it went in?

[11:11] Neas Bade: I'd like to know if that fixed things for folks

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. I think there's a race condition with the neighbors list that's causing weird stuff.. doing locking now to check.. if I get better results, I'll commit

[11:11] More Wright: as said to be able to get a decent idea of what works and what doesn't with textures we need osgrid to be running at least 2641, in my private tests, most of the time textures work, although there are still some problems

[11:11] Neas Bade: Teravus, I definitely seem to be getting a race on standalone startup with regions

[11:12] Charles Krinkeb: The last update was 48 hours ago. Generally, updates to the grid occur each weekend. Is that insufficient?

[11:12] Neas Bade: if I log in too soon, I only see 3 of 4 regions, and the 4th one never comes back

[11:12] Neas Bade: fwiw, textures appear to be slowly trickling in still

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: if you do update today charles do not go past 2643

[11:13] tehMihgty Twitch: I still see myself and charles both as grey except for hair

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: interesting i still havent seen a single texture load except for the avatar ones

[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: Does the group wish OSGrid updated to the latest more frequently? I thought this was becoming a problem and backed off to a slower update pace.

[11:13] Neas Bade: I think whatever you feel comfortable with cfk

[11:14] tehMihgty Twitch: probably, even as well as things are working, it will depend on the criticality of the updatefor some time yet to come

[11:14] Charles Krinkeb: I just dont want to push the developers too hard with updates.

[11:14] Neas Bade: my one hackery at the moment is all in clientview, as I think we're getting a lot of dead threads hanging out due to the different ways that clients end up disconnecting

[11:15] tehMihgty Twitch nods

[11:15] Neas Bade: I'm going to try to consolidate down the exit paths so cleanup of clientviews is more consistant

[11:15] More Wright: cfk, yeah don't worry about updating osgrid too often, as you said we all agreed that backing off and doing it slower was best

[11:15] Teravus Ousley: I'm using Close now in RestartNow

[11:16] Neas Bade: Teravus, ok, I'll consider Close to be our standard function there

[11:16] tehMihgty Twitch: btw, rebaking textures got my clothes and skin to show up, but not Charles'

[11:16] Neas Bade: what is the rebake command again?

[11:16] tehMihgty Twitch: ctrl+alt+r

[11:17] Teravus Ousley: :D.. someone keeps *modifying* :D

[11:17] tehMihgty Twitch: LoL

[11:17] tehMihgty Twitch: I swear, all I did was replace the hippo inside I thought was out of place and deleted

[11:18] tehMihgty Twitch: Nebadon, when you finish that one.....LoL

[11:18] Charles Krinkeb: Am I correct in assuming that cleaning up for a 0.5 release by the end of the year is our main goal?

[11:19] More Wright: Justin, I haven't had time to read all your email yet, but from the bit I did read, I'm not sure storing iventory of prims that are "in-world" in asset format is the right thing to be doing

[11:19] Charles Krinkeb: Lets stop editing the place until the meeting is over, please.

[11:19] Neas Bade: I'd like to see a 0.5 for the new year

[11:19] Neas Bade: at least something to push for

[11:19] More Wright: Prims in world are stored in a SQL database, so I think most likely adding a extra table to that for inventory

[11:20] Neas Bade: yes, I did a quick reply, but I'm of the same mind as MW here

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I was going down that route initially but it started to get a little complicated

[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: Add table definitions for future use seems like a good idea to me.

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: It seemed that storing inventories as assets could be a neat way of circumventing that

[11:20] Neas Bade: yeh, it probably will get a bit complicated, but I think it's worth the initial overhead to get it figured out that way :)

[11:21] Neas Bade: if we just binary blob it, our initial mapping is easier, but doing stuff with the data down the road is harder

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: oops.. see one ANPC

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: .. err .. not anymore :D

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: It would be nice if we have an idea what the applications requiring indexed inventory data would be down the road

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: It does mean shuffling about much more information with the attendent logic...

[11:22] Teravus Ousley: yeah, that would speed db perf

[11:23] outcast Opus: this is quite cool, I am using ajaxlife

[11:23] tehMihgty Twitch: I think I tried that once on SL

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you think about the idea of storing asset ids and dereferencing them later?

[11:23] tehMihgty Twitch: but it was a bit slow

[11:24] outcast Opus: yea

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess you'd only like that if you bought the serialization idea in the first place :)

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I'll put a reply to Sean on the mailing list - I did originally go down the path of separate tables so perhaps I'll resurrect that text

[11:24] More Wright: hmm bandwith seems high, constantly at around the 400kbps

[11:25] outcast Opus: but it goes to show you the potiental of how SL/Open Sim interaction with the real world

[11:25] Charles Krinkeb: 54% CPU, 617MByte RAM on this region at the moment.

[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: looks like 11 avatars.

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: thats really high

[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: 12 avatars now

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: for 11 avatars just standing around chatting

[11:26] Teravus Ousley decides to fix the region issues and then work on sim stats.. (hates not being able to monitor the simstats)

[11:26] outcast Opus: hehe

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: wasnt adam working on sim stats

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: you should talk to him before doing to much work

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: so regarding 0.5, is there agreement on the criteria?

[11:27] Charles Krinkeb: Yeah. Pick a day and whatever is in svn that day is it.

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: he's doing the underlying requirements in each module..

[11:27] More Wright: Justin, yeah everything needs more work :)

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[11:28] Charles Krinkeb: Work interrupt, must go, sorry.

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: presumably work would be slowed on new stuff until 0.5 is done?

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: n00b question

[11:28] tehMihgty Twitch: tk Charles

[11:28] outcast Opus: I look at this thing I think i am going to have to write a SL/Open Sim plugin for GAIM

[11:29] Teravus Ousley: ok. Yeh.. I think I'm going to hold off on the 'draw distance based sim notification' until .5 is out.

[11:29] More Wright: yeah I think getting what we have now but actually so it works is the general idea, but doesn't mean you can't work on new things like prim inventory

[11:29] Teravus Ousley: I've got a lot of structure in place for it. however, I have a feeling it's going to take a week to debug out once it's in place.

[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: what are the most unworking things right now?

[11:30] tehMihgty Twitch: depends on who you ask

[11:30] tehMihgty Twitch: for me, the two biggies are inventory and scripts

[11:30] tehMihgty Twitch: neither seem to work at all for me

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: I'm working on the region comms right now. Working out a race condition there.

[11:31] More Wright: Textures (although we aren't sure of the state of them with latest revisions), inventory and asset downloading (on non textured assets we seem to have problems with larger assets)

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I saw chi11ken just put ina fix for the inventory server

[11:31] outcast Opus: talk you guys later

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: anything I can help out with?

[11:31] tehMihgty Twitch: tc Outcast

[11:33] More Wright: Justin, as you have said you are interested in inventory, then I think anything you can do there is great. even if its just refactoring so that the code is cleaner and easier to fix later

[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: I have a few more minutes to listen

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I've also been seeing babblefrog did a lot of inventory functionality recently

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I've seen folder creation and item moving working in standalone, though I don't know about grid

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: More: yeah, I'll address inventory issues unless other peple get to them first :)

[11:34] tehMihgty Twitch: most likely I have not been able to really test the inventory issue as I havent been on a sim that has a recent svn

[11:35] tehMihgty Twitch: I've rebuilt the OS on this box just this morning, hope to check out the code again after the meeting

[11:35] More Wright: if you want to work on something other than inventory then the problem with asset sending to clients is quite a high priority (see mantis issue 163), basically on larger assets it seems we don't break them up into packets correctly, this is also a problem that stops us having custom animations enabled

[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: Yang and the moons are updated every day to the latest svn. The plazas and the UGAI are updated once a week.

[11:36] tehMihgty Twitch: have the moons been updated today Charles/

[11:36] tehMihgty Twitch: ?

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yeah, 163 looks nasty

[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: not yet

[11:36] tehMihgty Twitch: kk

[11:36] tehMihgty Twitch: I will run my tests agains a standalone server before registering any more issues with the group

[11:36] tehMihgty Twitch: keeping my build fresh

[11:37] Chillken Proto: i've been working a bit on saving wearables between logins, and hopefully can get that working soon

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm curious about the irc/im feature sdague mentioned

[11:37] Chillken Proto: but that shouldn't change the inventory DB...

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[11:37] Neas Bade: sorry, got pulled into a call

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I have a feeling the IRC servers dont like how we are talking to them

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i noticed that after about a day on any certain server

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: it no longer works anymore

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: like they are temp banning us or something

[11:38] Neas Bade: no, that's not the case

[11:38] Neas Bade: it's name collision

[11:38] Neas Bade: the IRC protocol is very silly

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: <3 Name collision

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yea it seems like i after about 24 hours the IRC server you select no longer acccepts your connections

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: for a few days

[11:39] More Wright: does IM work again? didn't someone mention that it had stopped working the other day

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, this is im in world, not to outside world?

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: hehe it works

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: on sean's list

[11:39] More Wright: okay works

[11:39] tehMihgty Twitch: works here too

[11:39] More Wright: yeah Im is in world

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: Yea IRC is a differnt story though

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: neas: what do you mean by name collision?

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it works for a bit then stops working until you change servers

[11:40] Neas Bade: for irc, the bots are name colliding

[11:40] Teravus Ousley: where did Mr. OpenSim go?

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: when the server is restarted?

[11:40] More Wright: okay everyone can stop IM'ing me now, it works! (I think every single person here Im'ed me)

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ROFL

[11:40] Neas Bade: :)

[11:40] tehMihgty Twitch: LoL

[11:40] Charles Krinkeb: except me

[11:41] Teravus Ousley: he *was* on my friends list :P.. must have defriended me :(

[11:41] More Wright: yeah well thats because you don't like me Charles ;)

[11:41] Charles Krinkeb: Yang and the 'moons' are now updated to r2657 which is the latest and they are up and running.

[11:41] tehMihgty Twitch: awesome Charles

[11:41] tehMihgty Twitch: Thanks

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: neas: when do bot names collide?

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: your probably going to have problems Charles

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: you will log in and only see 1 region

[11:42] Neas Bade: on the IRC /join command

[11:42] Charles Krinkeb: I already have problems

[11:42] tehMihgty Twitch consoles Charles

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: they collide on server restart?

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: tell me to go away and study irc if these are dense questions

[11:43] Neas Bade: the collide because a lot of OpenSim people enable IRC

[11:43] Neas Bade: :)

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: is there anyway we can fix that?

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: and their sims all post to the same channel?

[11:43] tehMihgty Twitch: ahhhh, yes. Probably need a configuration point there for botname

[11:43] Teravus Ousley: change the nickname?

[11:43] Neas Bade: it doesn't matter it per server

[11:43] Neas Bade: it is configurable

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea i always change my bot name

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and it still stops working

[11:44] tehMihgty Twitch: Probably should tak that up in the doc/wiki

[11:44] tehMihgty Twitch: gah

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:44] tehMihgty Twitch: Heh

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: neas: so an opensim bot name should automatically contain some random element to stop collisioins?

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: :/ editing the prim again :/

[11:44] Neas Bade: yeh, probably

[11:44] More Wright: I didn't touch anything (looks inocent(

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol yea i did that earlier on accident

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: thats another problem we have

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: if you click and drag a prim

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it moves

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: that should not be happening

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yeah...

[11:45] Neas Bade: plus some better error handling

[11:45] Stefan Andersson: Hmm... we don't honour 'locked'?

[11:45] Teravus Ousley: arg

[11:45] Teravus Ousley stops bothering trying to *fix* it

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: fun though :)

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:46] Neas Bade: :)

[11:46] Charles Krinkeb: ROFL

[11:46] Neas Bade: yeh honoring locked would be cool

[11:46] Neas Bade: sorry, back to full attention now

[11:46] Neas Bade: the IRC module is very hackish, and doesn't bother really handling faults

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: oh god this is great, a completely deformable environment

[11:47] Neas Bade: it should be written to actualy listen for server responses and do things if connect fails, but right now it just sends stuff, and doesn't bother to listen for any server messages for fails

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: rofl

[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: stop that

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its coming right for us

[11:47] Neas Bade: heh

[11:47] Neas Bade: heheheheh

[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: bunch of griefers

[11:48] Teravus Ousley: he

[11:48] Neas Bade: anyway

[11:48] More Wright: so who gets to sit on a prim today while we all kick them around?

[11:48] Neas Bade: supporting locked would be nice if anyone has time for that

[11:48] Neas Bade: would help keep from accidental moves

[11:48] Teravus Ousley: locked is trickier then you think, Neas

[11:48] Neas Bade: yeh, I assumed it probably ways

[11:48] Teravus Ousley: :D

[11:48] Neas Bade: was

[11:49] Neas Bade: doesn't mean I don't want a poney

[11:49] Teravus Ousley: It gets captured by the permissions routine.. right now

[11:49] Teravus Ousley: .. doesn't get applied though.. because it doesn't actually *do* anything.. because the ObjectFlags permissions needs some sort of voodoo math to get it to work.

[11:49] tehMihgty Twitch: wouldnt it depend heavily on the underlying storage mechanism to fetch the attributes of the prim (the same one currently being developed)

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: is this that hardcoded number?

[11:50] Neas Bade: object flags are stored in the db

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: max signed 32bit?

[11:50] Neas Bade: yeh

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: we're moving away from the hardcoded number

[11:50] Neas Bade: it's a bit vector

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: .. :D

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: It's bad

[11:50] Neas Bade: it's not that bad

[11:50] Neas Bade: why is a bit vector bad here?

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - is there a general place to put hardcoded numbers?

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: It's got values in there that cause problems when mixing with actual values

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess that should vary module to module

[11:50] Neas Bade: oh, the hard coded numbers are badd

[11:51] Charles Krinkeb: Where is my wiffle bat?

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: well, just don't commit any changes to permissions now.. and you won't have to revert them shortly lafter :D

[11:52] More Wright: who stole the path?

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: errr

[11:52] Charles Krinkeb: Just change it to "0xFFFFFFFF" and everyone will know what it means.

[11:52] tehMihgty Twitch: not I

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: why does take copy not take a copy?

[11:52] Teravus Ousley: justin <---

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nowhere else are meetings disrupted by people nicking the very path you're standing on...

[11:53] More Wright: hehe

[11:53] tehMihgty Twitch: isn't it great? *winks*

[11:53] Neas Bade: heh

[11:53] Charles Krinkeb: Is it the "Wright" path or the "Wrong" path?

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: groan

[11:53] Teravus Ousley: the 'no path'

[11:53] tehMihgty Twitch: LoL, Charles..

[11:53] Neas Bade: sigh

[11:54] Neas Bade: ok, before we run out of time, I'd like to bring up 0.5 again.

[11:54] Neas Bade: I'm hoping people saw my email to the opensim-dev list

[11:54] Charles Krinkeb: And is the "Wright" path "Prior" to the "Wrong" path or not?

[11:54] Neas Bade: I'd love to get people piling onto that email with thoughts on the release, and realistic short term goals to get in place

[11:54] Charles Krinkeb: Yes, 0.5. Lets go, go, go.

[11:55] tehMihgty Twitch: note to self: get on the lists

[11:55] Charles Krinkeb: Just pick a day and label it 0.5. Whats the problem?

[11:55] Stefan Andersson: Well, I don't know how 0.5 it would be, but shouldn't we all be thinking about avatar appearance, wearables and... attachments?

[11:55] More Wright: yeah I think short terms goals should be mainly to get what we already have working more stable

[11:55] Stefan Andersson: yeah, definitively

[11:56] Stefan Andersson: +appearance, wearables and... attachments?

[11:56] tehMihgty Twitch: Stefan, you would be my other hero

[11:56] Charles Krinkeb: Should we de-emphasize script testing and concentrate more on inventory over the next two weeks or leave it as it is?

[11:56] Neas Bade: attachments seems a bit off, no?

[11:56] Charles Krinkeb: --attachments for a while.

[11:56] Neas Bade: appearance is a good question

[11:56] tehMihgty Twitch: I think that the inv and the script probs I'm having are related, but it is a hunch at present

[11:56] Stefan Andersson: Actually, yes. I would say attachments would be THE thing for 0.6

[11:56] More Wright: well think attachments are longer term, but appearance, if you mean persisting then yes, Chillken said he's been working on that

[11:56] Charles Krinkeb: appearance is also a problem as it doesnt edit very well.

[11:57] Neas Bade: I know it came up over the weekend, the idea to add 13 columns to the user table for the 13 wearables

[11:57] Charles Krinkeb: fine with me

[11:57] Neas Bade: chillken still here?

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: fine with me also Neas

[11:57] Stefan Andersson: Yeah, well, that's what I mean with appearances; finalizing them. So they work. All of it.

[11:57] Chillken Proto: the way i have it right now is adding a new table for wearables, so we're not limited to 13

[11:57] More Wright: well appearance should work, not sure what isn't working

[11:57] Stefan Andersson: So we can finally meet up as something other than 6 shades of ruth.

[11:57] tehMihgty Twitch: Stefan: even without attachements, you would still be my other hero

[11:57] Charles Krinkeb: Shall I stop beating the scripting drum on #opensim and beat the appearance drum instead?

[11:58] Chillken Proto: and it doesn't break existing user tables, fwiw

[11:58] Neas Bade: any idea how close that is?

[11:58] More Wright: I see no grey avatars

[11:58] Neas Bade: Chillken, ok, that's cool

[11:58] Teravus Ousley: same, no grey avatar and no ANPC

[11:58] Neas Bade: hmmm... out of order messages, that's new

[11:58] Stefan Andersson: No, Charles, actually, I think scripting works very well as a 'line' thing as opposed to 'project' things.

[11:58] Chillken Proto: i hope i can get it in in the next week or two....

[11:58] Charles Krinkeb: Is my thrust on the #opensim channel Ok with the core developers who are here?

[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: Is my thrust on the #opensim channel Ok with the core developers who are here?

[11:59] Stefan Andersson: /kick Charles Krinkeb 1000 Excessive flood.

[11:59] Neas Bade: :)

[11:59] Stefan Andersson: agh

[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: no way

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:59] Neas Bade: cfk I think you've been doing a great job with #opensim

[11:59] Stefan Andersson: Yeah

[11:59] Neas Bade: keeping people focused

[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: I typed that only once.

[11:59] tehMihgty Twitch: cfk is my main hero right now :)

[12:00] Neas Bade: yeh, chat is acting up a bit

[12:00] Neas Bade: I actually got messages out of order

[12:00] Charles Krinkeb: What guidance could the core-developers give us for the next week in closing this meeting?

[12:00] More Wright: will someone drop the hippo on Teravus to see if that will stop him jumping up and down

[12:01] Charles Krinkeb: ROFL

[12:01] Stefan Andersson: ...

[12:01] Stefan Andersson: Ohhhkay

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: good thing i linked that after i fixed it

[12:01] tehMihgty Twitch: I think I will relog to deimos and see how inv treats me there

[12:01] Stefan Andersson: by the way, another neat-o thing we still have left, is to have physics on all physical parts, not just the root part

[12:01] Stefan Andersson: anybody here knows how difficult that would be?

[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: That was worth all the frustration of the last week just to see the hippo move like that.

[12:02] Stefan Andersson: Creating a physics composite form?

[12:02] Neas Bade: teravus is the person to ask about that

[12:02] Neas Bade: I think it's harder than you think

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: you should keep the environment like this charles :)

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: good for closet griefers like me

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: yeh.. the physics engine doesn't know enough info currently to do that, lbsa

[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: I may, just to spite you guys.

[12:02] Neas Bade: would it work for non physical objects?

[12:02] Stefan Andersson: Hmm.. what's missing?

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: heirarchy

[12:03] More Wright: if we were using PhysX it actually wouldn't be hard as that supports multiply shapes attached to one physics entity, but don't think its that simple with ODE

[12:03] Stefan Andersson: Well, I'm actually just thinking of doing a composite physical form.

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: it's that simple with ODE :D

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: we just don't know about any prim 2 prim relationships

[12:03] Stefan Andersson: well then...?

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: I'd suggest leaving that to .6

[12:03] Stefan Andersson: No, but, just make one PhysActor with the form of all prims?

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: So, attachments + composite forms = 0.6

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: :D

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: Yay.

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: So, if 0.5 is january, 0.6 should be... february?

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: <3

[12:04] Teravus Ousley: can't do that lbsa.. if we're ever going to do anything but bounding boxes

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: I love you guys. You are the best.

[12:04] Stefan Andersson: Bounding Boxes is fine with me.

[12:04] Teravus Ousley: (can't make a single physactor)

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: if by Februaru 2009 you mean then yes

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:05] Stefan Andersson: I would be ++++ if I could make a shoe-box.

[12:05] More Wright: yeah well thats what I meant PhysX supports, multiple phyics shapes attached to a single "physics actor"

[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: Cant you just do that with a couple of prims, lbsa?

[12:05] Stefan Andersson: Yes, but they wouldn't be linked.

[12:05] Stefan Andersson: :(

[12:06] Teravus Ousley: You can add multiple shapes to a rigid body.. my point, however.. is that there is no information about prim2prim relationships.. if you wanted to do it that way.. it would have to be done from the scene.

[12:06] Charles Krinkeb: I hope you guys check out the building and stream that "Shenlei" made on the other side of the Corporate Plaza building before leaving.

[12:06] More Wright: ahh

[12:06] Stefan Andersson: So, the problem with ODE is that the physical objects can't intersect, yes?

[12:06] More Wright: aren't we passing SceneObjectGroup to physics engine?

[12:06] Teravus Ousley: X.X

[12:07] Teravus Ousley: no, the problem isn't that the objects can't intersect :P

[12:07] Teravus Ousley: .. it's that we don't know an objects relationship to another object :D

[12:07] Teravus Ousley: we don't know that they're linked :D

[12:07] Neas Bade: just because sceneobjectgroup isn't used?

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: if we knew they were linked.. we could add all of the prim in the linked object to a single rigid body

[12:08] Neas Bade: ok, that seems like an issue of us sending down the wrong thing

[12:08] Stefan Andersson: .. yeah... so I guess we'd have to insert that into the Add( part ) bit?

[12:08] Neas Bade: the relationships are all in SceneObjectGroup

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: yeah.. it'd be tough, I think to get it done right.

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: that's why I'd say 06 :D

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: .6

[12:09] Neas Bade: yep, I think that's fair

[12:09] Stefan Andersson: Well, actually, it will be tough to get attachments right as well, and that's why I kind of bunch those issues togetehr.

[12:09] Stefan Andersson: But nevermind, I agree it's 0.6

[12:10] Stefan Andersson: So, 0.5?

[12:10] Stefan Andersson: Tag'em and Bag'em I say.

[12:10] Teravus Ousley: :D note.. that the physics scene never actually knows any identifying info about the prims it's simulating

[12:10] Teravus Ousley: the sceneobjectpart and group.. manage that.

[12:10] Stefan Andersson: Sounds good.

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: unfortunately, I think it's going to have to know at least the UUID

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: .. to be able to generate MeanCollisionReport packets

[12:12] Neas Bade: that makes sense

[12:12] More Wright takes out his shot gun and tries to shot Stefan down

[12:13] Stefan Andersson: HAHAHA... you can't shoot me...

[12:13] Teravus Ousley: once again.. I think it's a .6 feature. Staring to mess with that will most definately introduce bugs that will need to be worked out by .6

[12:13] Neas Bade: yep, agreed

[12:13] Teravus Ousley:.

[12:14] Neas Bade: unrelated question, ClientManager is passed to ClientView, but not used anywhere

[12:14] Neas Bade: any thoughts on that?

[12:14] Teravus Ousley: Client Manager manages 'all of the clients on the server'

[12:15] Neas Bade: right, but does ClientView actually need a back reference to it?

[12:15] Teravus Ousley: (I think it's all of the clients on the instance)

[12:15] Stefan Andersson: I introduced the ClientMAnager in order to have one spot to clear up clients on disconnects

[12:15] More Wright: hmm what happened to the path with justin sitting on it? I moved it then it went flying off somewhere

[12:15] Teravus Ousley: I still see justin sitting on it here :D

[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: And I stil see the path

[12:16] Charles Krinkeb: me, too

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: No, that back reference is there because I couldn't find out how to get rid of one certain instance of connection break

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: That might have been solved by now

[12:16] More Wright: okay I must of not got a packet update

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: If there are no references to it, remove it.

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: That might have been solved by now

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: simply

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: If there are no references to it, remove it.

[12:16] Stefan Andersson: Echo

[12:16] Neas Bade: ok, I'll pull it out

[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: oops

[12:17] Stefan Andersson: Come on, let's have a fly-fest, see how chaotic we can get it?

[12:17] Teravus Ousley: Echo Test: You're an idiot!

[12:17] Stefan Andersson: And see if the sim handles it?

[12:17] Rika Price: Hey all, :) we all look like twins

[12:17] Neas Bade continues to hack on clientview

[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey goes to get something to eat

[12:18] Charles Krinkeb: I'll fix you guys and turn on physical for the next meeting.

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: weeeeeee

[12:18] Stefan Andersson: that was fun. :P

[12:20] Stefan Andersson: Hmm.

[12:20] Stefan Andersson: Yeah, that thing with physical stuff falling thru the ground aint cool.