Chat log from the meeting on 2014-04-15

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgQGOskXis [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: this is oldest video I have I think [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: its not great quality [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:02] Cuteulala Artis: holy cow [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol 2007 [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:02] Cuteulala Artis: thats like [11:02] Cuteulala Artis: EmptPlaza [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya [11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:02] Mata Hari waves to Justin [11:02] Cuteulala Artis: wOw! u were even noobier hahahaah [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: you couldnt do much back then [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya everyone was ruth pretty much [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: you couldnt save your appearance [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: had to rewear stuff every log in [11:03]  Cuteulala Artis: Ohhhh! god [11:03] Robert Adams: hello all [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi all [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert [11:03] Dev Random: howdy [11:03] Mata Hari: hi Robert [11:03] Cuteulala Artis: very imprsssive advancement in so little years [11:03] Robert Adams: you pinge me this morning Nebadon... what's up? [11:03] Cuteulala Artis: physic sseemed fun [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I have a horrible bug thats driving me insane with Var regions [11:04] Cuteulala Artis: slow terrian load Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: var region neighbors [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: and rezzing stuff [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks waves hello [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i rez my big terrain tiles [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: which are generally large linksets 768x768 [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: usually 36 tiles [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: 6x6 [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i rez it and its in the nieghbor region [11:04] Mata Hari: lol [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I log out and restart simulators [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: and its back where it belongs [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: driving me insane [11:05] Cuteulala Artis: funny thing i noticed about you neb is you always testing something out [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: anyone ever see ahything like this? [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: btw, before we start, are you likely to be around on skype for a bit afterwards? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i need to run to supermarket before it closes [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: how long would you need Justin? [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: about 15 mins [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i only have 1 hour after meeting before it closs [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: it can wait until a bit later [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: though then you might be busy with other things [11:06] Robert Adams: Nebadon, so the objects are not keeping their new region location but are going back to the 256 sized region location? [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: yes nebadon, see that same slow terrain loading bug to [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: its strange because a flat terrain is fast [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: well my varregions are 768x768 [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: I have them in a 2x2 or 3x2 or even 3x4s [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: mine is only 1280x1280 because the slow loading [11:06] Cuteulala Artis: There were pushes from aurora teraaform that speeds up loading but no one implemtneted it into opensim yet [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: what happens is say i am in the far SW region [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i rez my big giant linkset tile which is also 768x768m [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but consists of 36 pieces [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i rez it down in the low corner near 0/0 [11:07] Robert Adams: most of the terrain loading speedups are in the OpenSim sources but they are not connected up or debugged [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and it rezzes next door [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and I can not move it back no matter what [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: so i relog, its still in the wrong region [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: long life permissions :O [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i log out restart everything and its back in the lower SW region where it should be [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: really making me bonkers because im constantly restarting all the regions a lot [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i can give you a demo on one of my grids maybe some time if you want [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its not a easy thing to recreate [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i could even give you some DAE files to test with if your interested [11:09] Robert Adams: some pictures or a demo would be good... could be a lot of things [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ok not sure pictures would do it justice [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon,. make a fraps recording ? [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: these are very large ares [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya i could fraps [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: screenshots would probably not be helpful [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i like that for reportinmg bugs [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its easy to trigger it [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its just not easy to setup that kind of test environment [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lot of work [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: you might already have some though [11:11] Sarah Kline: hi [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Sarah [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah [11:11] Cuteulala Artis: someone get dan on [11:11]  Cuteulala Artis: Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: probably working [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so anyway I was mostly just wondering if anyone else had seen that kind of issue before with Vars [11:12] Cuteulala Artis: the first dev who makes a in world coffee maker that can make rl coffee winx a nvidia grid server Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect not, as usual im really pushing stuff to the edge [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: really large tracts of land [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: my biggest one is 3x4 768x768 [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its San Jose CA [11:12]  Cuteulala Artis: omg im so winxed out i said winx instead of win [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its like 2x1.5 miles [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, var dont need to be square ? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: yes they do [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: they are square [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its 12 768x768 [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: 3x4 is not square [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: in a 3x4 apttern [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: 3x4 x 768 [11:13] Cuteulala Artis: a none square var causes my coaster to drive into the wall [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: ouch !, thats not good for the reputation cute [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya I dont think we have any support for non square [11:14] Robert Adams: the viewere has problems with non-square varregions [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its viewers fault [11:14] Robert Adams: the viewers also have problems with adjacent regions that are not the same size (problem with static variables) [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I will make a video and start a mantis [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and if you want I can supply the collada files for testing [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i just cant give them to everyone [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its expensive GIS data [11:15] Robert Adams: the viewers were built around square, same sized regions [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: hehehe [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: what the bloody i just got a giant package in the mail its huge what on earth can it be hehe [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: its taller then Me? [11:15] Mata Hari: money! [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: haha [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: and heavy!! [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: lets open it [11:15]  Cuteulala Artis: i scared [11:15] Cuteulala Artis: Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:16] Robert Adams: an old-style video game [11:16] Mata Hari: my trials and tribulations of the last 24 hours (forced upgrade to new router from ISP) makes me ask whether there's any way in the future that it will be possible to host a sim on a non-NAT-loopback router and be able to access it from a client on the same network? It's getting very, very hard to find a router that supports loopback any more as most vendors have blocked it due to security issues [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: i have only 2 problems seen the last time, http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7104 [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: and offcorse the avatar feet that dont dfollow the object but alweays terrain [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: here is what it looks like after i sort out all the nonsense [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/sanjose2_002.png [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/sanjose2_003.png [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: buildings are from LIDAR scans [11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: I don't know that being behind a router will ever be easy, whether Opensim or something else. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: I believe it could be done if the regions could be configered to give a lan ip for lan logins and a wan ip for wan logins [11:17] Cuteulala Artis: its a mannequin [11:17] Cuteulala Artis: o.o [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: "Security Issues" [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: and you would need to do the same with any grid services or other ips (e.g. map) that were available to the viewer [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: job securirty for ISPs [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: so I believe it's possible but not a trivial amount of work [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: problem witrh that justin, what if you have more then 1 lan [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: ISPs certainly have no desire to let people run server-type stuff unless they're paying for a "business" connection. [11:18] Mata Hari: it might be worth considering (or looking at) since I suspect by the time Opensim is at 1.0 it will be almost impossible to get a loopback router which will be a major deterrent for many potential users [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: if there's no good router anymore i end by useing linux as router [11:19] Cuteulala Artis: unfortunatly my isp can kiss my butt becase im paying for unlimited internet access and what computers i use or have is none of there buisnesses [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I reflashed my router with TomatoRAF [11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Most consumer routers you find in a store are designed to connect a bunch of computers to a single INternet connection and each other. Anything beyond that it's not something the companies making them are too concerned about. [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: tomato gave me compleet problems with router lopback. it did not work. flashed orginal back and it worked perfect [11:20] Robert Adams: Justincc: the viewer gets the region's IP from the grid registration... the grid service would have to give out the different LAN and WAN addresses [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: running servers at home is not that common [11:20] Mata Hari: it's more than that......allowinng loopback is a potential security threat so they mostly want to close those threats [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: yes, [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: I cant see how its security threat [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I once thought through the problem and I think it can be done, but it's a lot of work [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is routers are becoming more powerful [11:21] Mata Hari: something about rebinding [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: most home level routers now are as powerful as what you would find in large data centers [11:21] Cuteulala Artis: hahaha ya [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: the Hardware manufacturers are colluding to cripple home routers [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: why is loopback a security problem? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: so people dont put them in data centers at 1/10th the cost of a large scale data center ATM [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: not to mention home network connections now rival data centers [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: datacenter is more expensive then  running it from home [11:22] Robert Adams: and odd solution would be a grid service proxy that can be used by viewers on the same subnet as the region server [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: so why even use a data center at all [11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: It's all why I've done remote hosting from day one, budget strain or no. No point in going through so much hassle for an inferior connection just to save a few bucks. [11:22] Cuteulala Artis: Ah HAHAHA... :O most internet i used in all buisneses were slower then a turtle [11:22] Robert Adams: the problem is really viewers that are 'inside' the region's NAT [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: and speeds only go fastder, virtual worlds are going to run more from home in future i think. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its a threat to the hardware manufacturers themselves allowing loopback is shooting themselves in the foot [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its Job "Security" issue [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: can firestorm not be modified so it looks what ip it use ? [11:23] Cuteulala Artis: Loopback so that my computer can re attack it self [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: not so happy with singularity, it seems to work worse then  firestorm. need more testinmg [11:23] Mata Hari: Cisco engineers have said that loopback we removed due to "inherent security issues" but didn't specify exactly what [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Adam proved years ago that we can get around the NAT issue [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but its difficult because it doesnt work on all routers [11:24] Dev Random uses iptables on the LAN computers. [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: atleast his work didnt, im sure it can be done [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: Mate, thge security risk of not selling business hardware enough [11:24] Mata Hari: lol [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: he seemed to think that more time and effort could elminate the loopback issue completely [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but I dont think its easy [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: skype use a 3e computer for that problem [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder if there are other systems that have the same problem. A lot of gaming stuff runs at home. How does minecraft handle this (or not) for instance [11:25] OtakuMegane Desu: Minecraft has the same issues. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess that doesn't have the problem of distributed systems [11:25] Mata Hari: most don't need to access local servers though [11:25] OtakuMegane Desu: It can be set up now to run on a local lan but if you want to go through a router it's the same pain. [11:25] Mata Hari: in most cases client connects to a server outside the network [11:25] Cuteulala Artis: what are the chances of a hacker attacking a home network anyways i mean i ben running years and not a single hack [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: well, that would be the same for opensim, if it's not run at home [11:26] Mata Hari: exactly [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: 95% of attacks are because of something you install yourself on your computers and network [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: brute force network penetration is very unlikely [11:26] Mata Hari: but part of the broader appeal of Opensim to a user is the ability to host a 'free" sandbox at home [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: even NSA has trouble with that [11:26]  Mata Hari: vs paying for someone else to host it [11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: Specific attacks to your network alone isn't common. BUt as part of a probing or infiltration for a botnet or such is very common [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: usually the way into a network is through email phishing [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: or USB sticks [11:27]  Cuteulala Artis: i put my data on an offline harddrive [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:27]  Cuteulala Artis: hack away [11:27]  Cuteulala Artis: Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:27]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yay social engineering [11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: the upload here inm country are pretty good, so people can run it from home. [11:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: Some home connections are quite good but that's a minority still. Even if you get the speed, there's no guarantee on latency or reliability. [11:28] Cuteulala Artis: I wanna know when will osgrid see the patches for terrain speed [11:28] Cuteulala Artis: like aurora has [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: fast var loading, would be nice [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Robert you are pretty close with that arent you? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: the terrain stuff is there its just not active or something I recall [11:29] Mata Hari: anyway....Cute was able to point me to a router that has loopback so I'll be able to connect to my own sims again once it arrives; but the hoops I have to jump through (plus the $150 to buy the router) was a bit of a reminder that it would be very worthwhile finding a way around it if at all possible from the Opensim side of things [11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Fast loading period would be good. :) [11:29] Cuteulala Artis: and router comes with free dns [11:29]  Cuteulala Artis: service [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: honestly [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: tp-lnk wr740n seems to be a good router with loopback and that was only about 30 USD, if I recall [11:29]  Cuteulala Artis: neb hs i i think too [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: if your running opensim a good router is necessary [11:29]  Cuteulala Artis: the asus one [11:30]  Cuteulala Artis: with merlin [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ISP supplied hardware will never work well [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: even if we work around NAT [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: they suck [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: and your experience will not be good [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: so in the end your buying a router no matter what [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: if your serious about hosting simulators [11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: 18.99 USD on amazon.com in fact [11:30]  Mata Hari: yeah..I can live with that and I know that performance of home-base sim is never going to approach a *real* host [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ISPs sell you junk on purpose [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: lucky still have modem, or option to but the newer router type in bridge mode,. and yes the routers are terrible [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Comcast and Verizon and Time Warner and BT [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: they dont wnat you running servers [11:31] Robert Adams: the real, long term solution would be to add IPv6 support :) [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: they want you to pay tripple for the business level account to run servers [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: technically your violating the TOS by running dedicated servers [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: but they wont shut you off [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: no nebadon, we get it from them, to use until you quit. then it need to be send back [11:31]  Cuteulala Artis: i dont think opensim is considered a server Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:31]  Mata Hari: but for many people a small private self-hosted sim is a huge "selling feature" of Opensim vs SL [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: they just dont make it easy [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: ipv6 thast a security risk, not loopback [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: i checked it once, nothing written sofar i see about servers here [11:32]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Mata, very important point! [11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: Opensim would indeed be considered a server. It's something that's so rare it probably doesn't even register on ISPs radar, but still [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: oh I agree [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: but its a huge huge very difficult problem to solve for a small minority of users, I am not saying we should not do it [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: im just not sure how we do it [11:33]  Richardus Raymaker: as long you dont rrun apache or mail server (most that port is blocked) its out of radar range [11:33] Cuteulala Artis: sheesh my left ear went out again [11:33] Mata Hari: yeah....and it might need cooperation from TVP too, who don't have a lot of incentive to invest a lot of time ina solution either [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: small ? [11:34] Cuteulala Artis: i sapoe i should hide the word Server from my computer box haha [11:34] Mata Hari: but just thought I'd float the idea in case it's something that *can* be achieved [11:34] Mata Hari: it could potentially broaden the user base by a reasonable margin [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: a fresh windows installtion generate more data then 1 opensim region :) [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its a issue we have struggled with for a long time Mata [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: a long time ago Adam Frisby made a grid loader for osgrid [11:34]  Mata Hari: I can believe it [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: that could traverse NAT for about 25% of routers for people having this exact issue [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: it was not well maintained and kind of fell into the ether [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: because to get that last 75% was a huge mountain of work [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem needs to be resolved differently for Linux and Windows users [11:36]  Cuteulala Artis: cant we just hook up a crossover ethernet to a server Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: and probably Mac users as well [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: tou would think, opensim looks what ip the request got from and send reply back to that ip. but thats to easy [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there is no 1 solution fits all [11:36] Mata Hari: well...if it's not feasible then so be it....but if it's achievable without excessive recoding it would be worth putting some time into at some point in the future [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: that's exactly what one could do, but opensim would have to be changed to allow for that [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: which is not a small amoutn of work [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: it could be resolved I think without ever touching opensimulator or the viewer [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Adam showed it could be done using a loader tool [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that ran opensim.exe [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it was a GUI [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: just write it on line 100.001 of your todo list [11:37] Cuteulala Artis: i wish osgrid has a gui!!! [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure how that would work [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: unless it's rewriting ip addresses on the fly somehow [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not sure 100% how it worked either [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i might have source some where [11:37] Mata Hari: a shell of some sort that Opensim and the viewer both run under and somehow intercepts anything that should be local [11:37] Cuteulala Artis: Pokes Neb in his badon [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: this is the binary I think [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: http://download.osgrid.org/OSGridLauncher_r0.23.zip [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember where the source was now [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: honestly though, that's a hacky way to do it [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe it would be much better to implement giving different IP to different connections at the server level [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: the region server you mean ? [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: mainly [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: ort does it need to go true robust ? [11:39] Cuteulala Artis: all of us should meet in a real highschool and talk osgrid to the people there and see how many clueless people we see [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: richarus: I don't know what true robust means [11:39] Robert Adams: ya justincc: have a region register both its internal and external IP addedresses and the grid service returns the local address if the requesting viewer is on the local subnet [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: https://github.com/AdamFrisby/OSGridLauncher [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: cant beleive i found it [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:39] Mata Hari: kk...well....keep it in the back of your mind since it's going to become progressively more difficult to get a router that supports loopback which means it kills some of Opensim's appeal to potential SL migrants [11:39] Cuteulala Artis: i showed osgrid to my work boss and now my boss is ordering a server for work hahahah [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: exactly, that kind of thing [11:39] Robert Adams: just a simple matter of programming and a pile of testing :) [11:40]  Richardus Raymaker: does robust need to send the local ip to client or can the region handle everything [11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: yes :) [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I specc'd it out at about 6 weeks work once [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya that was the problem we ran into [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: none of the developers had bad hardware [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so testing it was impossible [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: and most of the people having the problem were not good at testing/reporting [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: so, when the region registers, it sends the IP address in the regions.ini file to the robust grid service [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it was very frustrating [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: then when someone wants to login/teleport to that region, they get given that IP address [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: thats kind of why we burried it [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment, there's only one which is given to everybody. So if that's external, that gets given to both lan and wan viewers [11:41] Cuteulala Artis: neb my work place called Platinum Alts is interested in osgrid after i shoed them they gonna use it for education and i pointed them to your campus [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: but really, you want a lan viewer to be given a lan ip for that regio n(e.g. 192.168.1.200) and an external viewer the external IP (e.g. 123.44.15.9) [11:41] Cuteulala Artis: well of cource they want Me? set it up [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: nice Cuteulala [11:42] Cuteulala Artis: there is over 100 users at platinum that might register and use it [11:42]  Cuteulala Artis: my boss literly ordered a server [11:42] Cuteulala Artis: he was blown away [11:43] Dev Random: I've never looked at GridProxy source, but it might be able to support that redirection idea. It's a proxy, after all.... [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: it would be a great problem to resolve for sure [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, could rewrite it there, maybe even just the initial message that tells the viewer which region IP to use [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i hate telling people to go spend 150$ on a router [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: but... kind of hacky, right? :) [11:43] Dev Random: heh.. yeah [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: and it's not just that one, you also need to take care of other IP addresses given directly to the viewer [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: such as the map tile ip [11:44]  Cuteulala Artis: neb we have same router [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: and caps addresses [11:44]  Cuteulala Artis: was 125 [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I think a bunch of us do now [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: i think $80 is enough [11:44]  Cuteulala Artis: hahah best router [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it is great [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: but for some its out of reach [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: financially and techincally [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so I have that tp-link for 18.99 USD and it seemed to work fine for me with nat loopback [11:44]  Cuteulala Artis: merlin build :P [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: flashing a linux bios is not quite for everyone [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't used it extensively, though [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: yes but its getting harder to find them Justin [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no one is making them anymore [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: the idea how skype and other p2p works dont sounds a good idea for opensim [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that tp-link is being made [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are a few [11:45] Mata Hari: I had to get something more "upscale" though since I also need that router to support other things connecting at home [11:45] Mata Hari: so had to be wireless, good speed, etc [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: but I can believe a large number of routers don't have that functionality any more [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to know what works and doesnt [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i generally only recommend what I have used myself [11:45] Cuteulala Artis: ya i showed mata the router we use [11:46] Mata Hari ordered one [11:46] Cuteulala Artis: ya its amazing router [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: what you have now nebadon ? [11:46] Cuteulala Artis: the usb server [11:46] Mata Hari: Cute promised to tech-support me through the setup if I hit any snags [11:46] Cuteulala Artis: kick azz [11:46] Mata Hari: :p [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: an Asus N66 [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: have a link Cute? [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: aah. ok [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have it handy [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: think that brand is hard to buy here as router [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: that looks like a pretty hefy router :) [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320091 [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: yes it is [11:47]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          b3ebec1: 2014-04-13 12:58:37 +0300 (Unix/Mono) [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: but if you want to run a lot of simulators [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: you really need something like this [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: if your running 1 simulator its overkill [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: some of the OSgrid plazas run from my house [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think ISPs mind ppl running game server like stuff, but if it became a lot of ppl 24/7 they might detect that and frown upon it [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: Cuteulala Park [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: and Dan and Keys regions [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: all run from a server in my basement [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: as well as all of my regions [11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Home routers can have pathetically small connection capacity. It's something to watch out for if trying to run this kind of thing [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and OKC World [11:48] Mata Hari: sure.....as I say it's something for hosting a few small regions to use as your own sandbox and/or home that only a few people would ever visit at once.....I'd never try to host a party/dance on it [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have a friend who runs a mail server and other stuff at home [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: didn't sound easy to get set up though [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: mainly working around ISP blocks and such [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: that is nightmarish [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ive had 30 people on my router [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: held up fine [11:49] Mata Hari: but I think that's something that a lot of people would really appreciate being able to do [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i get 65Mb/sec down and 15Mb/sec up though [11:49] Mata Hari: (and do relatively "easily" or cheaply) [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: one time i had 75 real viewers connected to the OSCC server in Irvine CA [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: If you can afford $100+ you can get some damn good routers. Most people don't see the point though and grab the one on sale. :P [11:50] Mata Hari: that's what I'll be getting now, Neb.....it was my ISP's sevice upgrade that forced me to a new modem/router in the first place [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, we've about 10 mins left. Any other opensim topics today? [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: cheap routers cannot handle the speed. [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: still need to see how far mine can go with down and up [11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: well, where not cheap [11:52] Dev Random: I'm curious about whether anyone is concerned about the effective height limit of 328m on terrain. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: I dont really have anything [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: 328m height limit? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: im surprised you can go above 256 [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: greyscale RAW images should cap out at 256m [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: what terrain would be so heigh ? [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Mine [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:53] Dev Random: highland regions.. mountains [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i would suggest changing to mesh terrain [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: The mountains on my regions top out in the 500s if I remember right [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: wow that is surprising [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: is that a viewer limit or opensim limit? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: SL cant go that high I dont think [11:53] Dev Random: opensim [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I am suprised the viewer allows it [11:54]  Dev Random: http://imagebin.org/305410 [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: I've experimented with height maps and gotten spikes well into the thousands before [11:54] Dev Random: that's a Diva image... [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: that is surprising [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: i think sl is limited at 100 ? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: so the z value isn't real there? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: thats the default [11:55] Dev Random: yup [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: SL probably does have limits but I'd bet money they're abitrary, not tehcnical [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you can raise that # in estate panel in SL [11:55]  OtakuMegane Desu: technical* [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but I think absolute max is 256 [11:55] Mata Hari: they probably charge tier fee of $1/sqm/vertical elevation [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: basically a cube [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: so you can't successfully teraform when stuff has been raised to that height? [11:55] Dev Random: justin: I did a terrain fill 987654 and then terraformed it [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: 256x256x256 [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: it looks.... terraformed there? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: that hillock? [11:55] Cuteulala Artis: hehehe [11:55] Cuteulala Artis: this schoolgirl is hard to adapt to hehe [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: with terrain its 256 grey scale [11:57] Mata Hari: any progress on the login inventory fetch or is that something that will have to wait until after 0.8? [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: black = 0m [11:57] Dev Random: justin: repeating... I did a terrain fill 987654 and then terraformed it [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: white = 256m [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: I'm not understanding, I thuoght you said you can't terraform above 328? [11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Greater bit depth maybe? [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: maybe [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: It may have to wait... I'm fast running out of time and there are still some other issues to resolve [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya I need to run too [11:57] Mata Hari: kk [11:57]  Dev Random: justin: that pic wass from a Diva distro [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: 328m height limit? Didn't know of a limit. The height value gets multiplied by another value so you should be able to go well beyond 328m unless it is a viewer limitation. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i have to go to the store before it closes [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: oh, you're saying that doesn't have the limit? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ive been putting it off for days [11:58] Dev Random: right [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: that's odd - diva is based upon pretty stock opensim [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: and I'm not aware of any config setting for limiting terrain adjustment height [11:58] Dev Random: 0.7.6 [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: oh, so it's something that is new in current dev code? [11:58] Dev Random: yes [11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Mountains on my main island are into the 500s/600s and I've done in-viewer editing of them with no problem before [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, curious. Any idea where it was introduced? [11:59] Dev Random: new terrrain model is based on array of shorts, scaled by 100 [11:59] Dev Random: 327.67 [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, so this is a radams change :) [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'll poke him when he's paying attention :) [12:01] Dev Random: there is a scaling factor, defaults to 100, it can be changed, but at the cost of resolution... [12:02] Dev Random: change it to 1000, you can go higher, but then it's in 10cm increments instead of 1cm [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: right. I'm not sure how it was done before, but I suspect there was a good reason for going to an array of shorts [12:02] Dev Random: but I don't think you can do that without DB diving [12:02] Dev Random: used to be floats.. [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: but if it limits terrain ehgith taht's also not that great [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that change just for varregions? [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [12:03]  Dev Random: andrew: no... it's terrain [12:03] Mata Hari: maybe was part of the attempt to speed up terrain loading? [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Won't that break existing terrain? [12:03] Robert Adams: yes... I made the change... shorts that are scaled to make the heightmaps a lot smaller [12:03] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:04] Dev Random: I'm a big fan of integer math. It makes all kinds of sense. But limitations need to be recognized. [12:04] Robert Adams: didn't expect people to have terrain above a few hundred [12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: It'll happen. I doubt it's very common but I would think it may become more so with varregions where you can actually make a good mountain range or something [12:05] Mata Hari abandons plan to terraform a to-scale Mars [12:05] Sarah Kline: lol you want fast loading and massive terrains as well? [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Of course. ;) [12:06] Nebadon Izumi is Offline [12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:06]  Sarah Kline: ) [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: yes. still not see why you want something higher then 256 meters. takes ages to climb. and on 256x256 not nice. on var higher could be usefull but 256 still sounds heigh [12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: On a 256 alone, no it rarely comes out well. On multiple regions or var it can work nicely [12:07] Dev Random: if your theme is highlands, your entire region might be between 500-600..... [12:07] Robert Adams: might have to 'pull a Nebadon" and use mesh terrain... you can also do the caves of Mars that way [12:07]  Sarah Kline: how will you see it all in your viewer [12:08]  Richardus Raymaker: Dev,just pull the drain plugh of the sea. no raise needed :) [12:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: Water go down the hole... [12:08]  Sarah Kline: lol [12:09]  Mata Hari: make water physical and then set a spring up on a mountain.....and include erosion! [12:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: The shorts could be unsigned. 0 (sea bed) and up allows almost twice the range for land height (less amount based on sea level). [12:09]  OtakuMegane Desu: Water physics would be rather nice. Wonder how intense it would be on processing by current standards. [12:10]  Mata Hari: probably it would be brutal since it would have to find shortest path [12:10]  Dev Random: ha.. "current" standards [12:10]  OtakuMegane Desu: I know they took it out of the original Linden World because it was too intense but that was ages ago. [12:10] Mata Hari: and need current simulation too so you have backwaters and eddies [12:11] Mata Hari: oh.....I did just remember one other thing.... [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to head out. [12:11] Kayaker Magic: There are some fairly comutationally low cost algorithms for water, based on simplifications. Probably no worse than good wind. [12:11] Mata Hari: it seems that there's a little more use for being able script advanced mats [12:12] Richardus Raymaker: bye andrew [12:12] Robert Adams: even signed short got to 16K.... if scaled by 100 that gives a max height of 1600 or so [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: See everyone next week. [12:12] Sarah Kline: byes [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [12:12] Mata Hari: if you use a script to assign a texture that has transparancy you still have to manually set the alpha mode to blending [12:12] Richardus Raymaker: 1600  sounds much [12:12] Mata Hari: else it displays as alpha none [12:12] Robert Adams: I need to run also... take care all [12:13] Sarah Kline: me too bye all [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: would be nice if you can set the step size for terrain [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: bye robert [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: well, heading out to. bye all [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: :o [12:13] Mata Hari: I guess I'll run too [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: omg [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: losing them by the secs [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: Ah HAHAHA... :O [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: everyone has a life but Me? it seems hahahaa [12:13] Mata Hari: Posh is doing a load test on his sim if anyone has a pare moment to help him test it [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker is Offline [12:14] Mata Hari: it's "Castles of Rosered" region [12:14] Razz Raspberry: Honey, this isn't the colon cleansing support group [12:14] Mata Hari waves by to all [12:15] Kayaker Magic: I'll swing by Posh's region [12:16] Dev Random: I did a quick survey on OSGrid... "Mendou" has a mountain at 420m... "Titanic Belfast Ireland Harbour" has a sunken ship at -50m [12:16] Dev Random: both will break with 0.8 [12:16] Master Dubrovna: Gotta run too bye all [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, [12:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Negatives will break too? [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: With negative elevation, this is actually a problem with viewers [12:17] Dev Random: can't get there anymore [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: various subtle things break, like view distance with fog at negative elevations [12:17] Dev Random: av can't get below 0 [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, av can now not go below zero? [12:17] Dev Random: no. [12:17]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, viewers are a bit derpy at negatives and can't terraform below 0 but otherwise they're functional. [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: ok... that's something we have to make adecision on as well [12:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Or were [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum [12:17] Dev Random: I logged a mantis, and melanie closed it within seconds [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey sighs [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: what was the number? [12:18] Dev Random: not sure [12:18] Dev Random: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7076 is a good one to look at though [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: okj, htat looks like the terrain issue rather than negative av z positioning [12:19] Dev Random: yeah.. that one is... will find that other one [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I see your comment though [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: it was 7078 [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: one can argue that negative terrain or av positions were an unintentional mistake, since the viewer does not properly support it [12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I know prevent ing that will cause probems with existing stuff [12:20] Dev Random: yeah... I'm not worying about negatives. [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but now I have to :) [12:21]  OtakuMegane Desu: Honestly the negatives I have are mostly so the underwater terrain flows well. [12:21]  Dev Random: hehe [12:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: would have foudn that out sooner or later anyway [12:21]  OtakuMegane Desu: The 328+ heights are going to be a bigger issue for the vast majority [12:22]  Dev Random: means nobody will upgrade versions [12:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, this is something that needs to be looked at [12:22]  OtakuMegane Desu: Dunno all the details on math but even more extreme cases I doubt anyone is going to be hitting 1k or higher. [12:22]  Dev Random: "nobody" was kinda drastic. "some people" is better [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: this is the problem when people don't think about extreme cases for these values [12:24]  OtakuMegane Desu: True [12:24]  Dev Random worked RL as a QA Lead... [12:24]  OtakuMegane Desu: 640k RAM is enough for anyone :) [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: even if the answer is an artifical bound - at least your limiting it to some known range [12:24] Dev Random: yup [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: yeah, unfortunately we suffer a lot from a legacy of a lot of code being thrown together very quickly by people who weren't experienced programmers [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: within a very complex system [12:25] OtakuMegane Desu: I like to have effectivellly endless freedom but I do understand sometimes there are technical limits and compromises. [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: freedom is good, but I think it needs to be freedom that works and is reliable [12:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Most people will understand such limits when explained properly. [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: which is only really the case when somebody thinks about it explicitly (and really where there is proper testing, regression testing, etc.) [12:26] Dev Random: without discouraging noobs [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: but anyway, that's my own pet peeves :) [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. I see most people already left:0 [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: :) [12:27] Dev Random: cya [12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the chat [12:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Bye