Chat log from the meeting on 2015-02-10

[11:00] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: I switched sides this week [11:00] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:00] Connected [11:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha [11:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Justin [11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: traitor! [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:00] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: LOL [11:01] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Morning Justin [11:01] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hey Marcus :) [11:01]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Heya. :) [11:01] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Yay! Free cubes! Cubes for all! [11:01] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Awww. [11:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Marcus, Nebadon [11:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi shez [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi marcus [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi nebadon [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: is there any way to easily get the hg address of the region you are in? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:02] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Rich.. Hi everyone! [11:02] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: hmmm? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: there is LSL for that maybe? [11:02] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: It's the grid URI that tends to be the mystery part. [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, lsl will probably be necessary [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ossl :) [11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you can sort of pull it out of the description line if you make a landmark [11:02]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: +1 Aine [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: well yess sorry OSSL i mean [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess you have to be an HG visitor thuogh? This is a local account [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: but i do think there is existing OSSL to get URLs [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: I keep forgettig what the address of this region is [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think it should be possible to construct it with OSSL functions. Maybe I'll play around with that during the meeting [11:03]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: osGetGridHomeURI [11:03]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the gridinfo would have the grid url [11:03]  Primitive: Script running [11:03] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: osGetFullURI [11:04] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I don't see that one on the wiki. [11:04] Primitive: Script running [11:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: anyone know wiki page about setup maptiles for hypergrid ? [11:04] Script saved [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: oh well [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: osGetPathToTimeOutAndCrashWhenTryingToGoThere [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: there is a general page on maptiles but I don't know what the hg specifics might be [11:05]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: osGetGridHomeURI was in the wiki... seems logical. [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi justin [11:05] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: LOL Aine [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm, i like to have maptiles working next time i setup things [11:06] Script saved [11:06] Script saved [11:06] Primitive: Script running [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: are the recent additions from Dahlia going into 0.8.1 release or are new commits going into a 0.8.2? [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey sighs [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the gatekeeper uri function is threat level moderate for some reason and max here is VeryLow [11:07] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Would be nice of the materials one could make it in. That one should be super simple. [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah dang [11:07] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hmm, wonder why the hight level? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: materials are not enabled here [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: any eta for 0.8.1rc2 if needed ? [11:07] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Security through obscurity, most likely. [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to make judgement calls on each commit, but I expect Dahlia's will be fine in 0.8.1 as they are fixing broken stuff with little interaction with existing things [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I would expect 0.8.1rc2 to be either end of this week or early next [11:08] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: materials still not working right ? [11:08] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: They work fine if settup correctly. [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: the materials change I will bring over. As you say, it's pretty rivial [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: after rc2 though I will be much stricter [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sofar i know there's not much to configure in opensim [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya its just not seutp here [11:08] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i need to update or add the [Materials] section [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Dahlia [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia [11:09] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Dahlia :) [11:09]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I still think that should be in OpenSimDefault.ini... it isn't at the moment. [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi Dahlia [11:09]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Speak of the devil. :) [11:09] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Her ears musta been burnin' [11:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I ran across something that was missing in the defaults - I think every setting should be in that [11:09] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: moi? [11:09] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: +1 Bluewall [11:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I will go back and add whatever it was [11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes bluewall. [11:10] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: OpenSimDefaults.ini is in many ways the OpenSim Bible. [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: no, that should bve OpenSim.ini.example [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: defaults is where all the stuff that 95% of people don't need to worry about should go [11:10]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I am thihnking that I will start copying that to OpenSim.ini so I see all of them. [11:10] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: OpenSim.ini.example does not inlude everything we might want to change. Only the most common ones. [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: except there's tons of stuff *not* in example that *are* in defaults [11:10] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ Justin - but it should contain all of the settings. [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: there's a lot of obscure stuff in defaults that is somestimes only good for extreme expreimetns or debugging [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: put it all in OpenSim.ini.example and it gets overwhelming. I do agree that there are probably settings that should be in there though [11:11] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I know we shouldn't be touching OpenSimDefaults. But it's a great reference non-the-less. [11:11] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: some of the storage paths are in there [11:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if htey are not changed, they get written to "." [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and there's other stuff that isn't in example that really ought to be...like ApDomainLoading [11:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if it's not ro [11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But then still all settings need to be in opensimdefault [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: AppDomainLoading is in example [11:12] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: That one's been in example forever. [11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: how do you know all settings if the are not in someway visible [11:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: read the source, lol [11:13] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Heh [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: if you want an obscure setting then look in defaults [11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bliep [11:13] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Or the always up to date wiki. :) [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh..so it is...guess that's recent [11:13]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Nope... been there long time. I have to keep an eye on that one cuz I run on both Linux and Windows. [11:14]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: If you're only one or the other, it's fogrettable. [11:15]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: If I'm very, very lucky, all the stuff Xamarin is stealing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H porting from MS will make it so Linux can make AppDomainLoading true as well. [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: Linux can alaready do that, it's just slow (or at least was when I last did any comparison) [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know if it's slow due to implementation of some linux os aspect [11:16]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: eats lots of memory [11:16]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I forget the reasons to keep it false on Linunx, exactly, other than Bad Things Happened. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: I have a few regions that will not even start up if AppDomainLoading = True [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear the MS CLR will work on Ubuntu [11:16] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: *will* [11:16] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The big question is... How much of the CLR is it getting? Enough to run OpenSim? Or enough to run "Hello World!"? [11:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hello Virtual World [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: It will be a lot more than Hello World [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: has to be pretty much all of it really, thuogh maybe not stuff like WPF [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ms were pretty bad re: open-source in the past but they're making some very intersting moves now [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I think [11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: feeling the heat, perhaps? [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: from what? [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if you can run .dot good on every operating system. the get a bigger audience. [11:20] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: no longer competitive advantage to keep it closed with mono out there [11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no idea....maybe they're losing market share [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they want to be able to run native apps inside linux on Azure [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: so they can sell more cloud space / hosting [11:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: whatever the reason, maybe it will be good on mono and help us a lot. [11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Mono is also updating on a daily basis [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Migues says he wants to see it run better on Mono [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Miguel. [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wonders if coreclr is embeddable like mono supposedly is (unity3d) [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: see what run better? [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: So, maybe they'll put in the effort. [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Mono [11:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: .net apps [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: see mono run .net apps better? [11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I guess since they are pushing Xamarin on mobile. [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be... somewhat critical :) [11:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: competition is always good [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: I have been noticing something strange on var regions [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: might not be limited to vars [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: but sometimes when i have a bunch of objects selected and i am trying to rotate [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire thing poofs away [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: luckily so far ive never lost anything critical, usually copies I just made [11:26]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I been seeing that some too, but for me it always pops right back [11:26]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: are they back on restart? [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: no [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: suckers are just gone from what I can tell [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: that would be pretty unlikely. More likely they are at some extreme co-ordinate [11:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I saw somthing similar yesterday. but, there was no minpulation. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: also sometimes if i drag something across a border between vars [11:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Just had tons of missing stuff. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: it jumps to the other side of the simulator [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: like numbers are backwards or being inverted or something, very odd [11:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: hmm [11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: could it be viewer code having issues? I've had it happen and it seems to be *during* the rotation vs after releasing it [11:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: neighboring vars? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: yea, 2 768x768 vars [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i drag object from A > B [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: it jumps to the other side of B [11:28]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: yah I didnt think you were 'sposed to do that [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: do you ever know the names of any of the prims? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: somtimes, many times probably just named Primitive [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: if so, you could try and find them on the console with "show object name" [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its not hard to get the name because i have the object selected as it happens [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i never loose it, my manipulator arrows still stay anchored to the object [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its just 768m from where it should be [11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: still exploding prims.. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its like its retaining the coordinates from Region A [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: as it comes into B [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: and ends up exactly in same spot it was in A [11:30]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ahh [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't say I'm that surprised if there ar eisues with objects crossing borders [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: yea, ive seen it happen quite a few times now [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i'll see what console says next time it happens [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: things spontaneously relocating could well be adifferent matter though [11:30] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: not 100% though? [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately in this area i tend not to stay connected to the consoles as I work [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its so huge [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its 15 768x768 vars in 3x5 [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Clear out the log and start working, then check it if it blows up? [11:31] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Ive only seen physical scripted objects fail when trying to cross [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: logs** [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: yea i just need to connect up, shoiuldnt be hard to find it [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt surprise me at all Dahlia [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: im not even sure that is supposed to really work is it? [11:32] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: works in SL [11:32]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: lol [11:32] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: sl [11:32]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well it used to ages ago when I used to play with that stuff [11:33] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: scripted objects cross borders in AVN and InWorldz [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe in ODE it worked [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure it does in BulletSim [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I finally sidestepped that issue by just making one huge 2xm var [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: 2km* [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I get lost on that sucker [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: How is memory use? [11:34] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have an ode sim next to a bullet one and walking across that border is much smoother than bullet <-> bullet [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: it's taking up about 2.5GB on a 4GB machine [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: runs very stable [11:34] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: vehicles == fantastic [11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hiro - do you have the Flying Fizz scripts in OS yet? [11:35] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I want to say I had them a long time ago, before any vehicles worked [11:35] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I'll see if I still have them when I get back [11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I thin kthey just released them in January [11:36] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I got them.... early, lol [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Well, they did for a couple of days before then pulled them. So yeah. [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Would be cool to see if they work here [11:36] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I suspect thety would [11:37] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: the flying tako I have works just fine [11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: how feasible would a osGetAnimationDurationHeader(string animationName, list params) type function be? Thinking of one that allows a script to check the duration, loop/no-loop, and loop-in/loop-out values for an animation in inventory (stuff that's in the header as per: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Internal_Animation_Format). Is that held in memory at a region level or served directly to the viewer from the grid asset service as needed? [11:38] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: airplanes based on andrews original scripts are working well too, as are cars [11:39] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Aine, animations are assets and can be retrieved thru the asset service [11:40] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: there may be some animation format related code in core but I have no idea if it is complete or functinoal [11:40] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haa, the stick bug joke? [11:41] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: (it was left over from a 4/1 thing and may have been removed as cruft) [11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so probably no waqy for a script function to be able to get at that data [11:41] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: yah, that was the one that put Robin from Reaction Grid over the edge [11:41] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: a script function could probably get at it but not immediately [11:42] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: would likely need some kind of callback mechanism [11:42] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Dahlia, thanks for the LookAT update. [11:42] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: kinda like reading notecards in a script do [11:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right [11:42] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Billy, yw :) [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: one could use the OpenMetaverse.BinBVHAnimationReader [11:43]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: Nice Blimp, yo :) [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: threre's also still an OpenSimulator BinBVHAnimation class but I don't know how fuinctional it is. [11:43] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya Im not sure how well the libomv stuff works, animations in radegast look.... well they could use some work [11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what I'm looking for is a way for a script to be able to tell the length of an animation so it can set a timer to match that length, then move on to the next animation [11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: rather than having to embed the length of it (if it's even known) as part of the animation name/description [11:44] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I'd think that could be done but may not be as fast as one would like it to be [11:45]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: asset retrieval time and caching and all [11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so you'd have to do some sort of query during initialization of the script to build a list of the animations and their times, then pull that from the during use [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well you would need to initiate the asset fetch and then once they are fetched you could query/interpret them [11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:47] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: the fetch could take time and/or even fail completely [11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: like any dataserver type call [11:48] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: in theory an OSSL command could fetch synchronously [11:48] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and block? [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: osGetNotecard does this - which might actually be a problem since a very slow asset service could take a long time to timeout [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that command will block right now [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I've no idea how widely it's used if at all [11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so the contents of the notecard is never held in region memory at all? it's just called from asset service any time contents of the card are needed? [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: most of the time it would be in cache [11:50] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh, okay [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: in fact, this OSSL notecard has its own cache, which is redundant really [11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wish script not get reacreated with every save. but that you could use one script over and over. especially with development. I hope the annoying bug that scripts run behind in the editor then you have saved. also not sure if the bug is gone that when you select other object with script editor open to open new script things can get wonky [11:52] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there's definitely something wonky with the way scripts are cached by the viewer when you edit them [11:53] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: cached? [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes aine, there things got in the past many times weird. and afraid i will hit the problem again [11:53] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: after changing you have to select the object, then click off it, then select it again to force it to re-fetch inventopry [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Complete fail, sl dont need that and the way aine explains is not working good with building [11:53] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: oh? I do edit scripts with the prim editor closed [11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: otherwise if you just open the script again on the first time you select it you will see the *previous* version of it, not your most recently editted version [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: seems to work but sometimes viewer crashes after I teleport around with the script editor open [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Dahlia, also that i do, but it can go wrong [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect such bugs are more likely server issues than viewer. It could be that OpenSimultaor fails to send inventory data when the viewer expects it, for instance [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes aine [11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it sometimes appear if you close the editor wait a bit and ereopen it (possibel you select the object again to) [11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's one of those habits you just to develop to clik away and back again at least once every time you make an edit [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: its usually not a problem to edit/save scripts with the prim editor closed for me [11:55]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: me either [11:55] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: this the first time I heard of these issues [11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: usually works for me too [11:56] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I ride my vehicles while editing their scripts [11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: its really not to first time on dev meeting i talked about it [11:56]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but when you next select the object to edit the script again if your last change was recent the script you get when you open it won't be your updated one [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I;'ve heard of this before. Unforuntately never got round ti investigating further [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: The only time I script is when I'm testing for some OpenSimulator bug [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yea I have seen that before too working on my racer [11:57] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: for me it's like: open prim and edit script, close prim. edit script and save a few times. teleport away and restart sim, but keep editor open. teleport back to sim once started, try to edit script, viewer crashes [11:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I expect it's something that only gets updated as "changed" when the region does a persist [11:57] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: ahhh, that could well be [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: asset changes (script changes) are persisted immediately [11:57] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: which is dependent on the timing you have configured [11:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hm [11:58]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I usually have mine notched up by a factor of ten [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm. so lower the total timings [11:58] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: for persistence updates, yes [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly there's an optimization where script changes are not persisted immediatley [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: though that would mean you cannot reference every single change via it's asset UUID [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: from other simulators [11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it seems as through from a running standpoint they are, but when you go back into the script to edit it, the old script is still there so presumably it's being pulled from a cache of some sort [11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and that can be even when you don't select it until several minutes after you made the change [12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Right aine, thats what happend to me many times. but you neve rknow when it happens [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I'm surprised to hear the bug because changes should save immediately. The first place I would look is in the OpenSimulator code itself to see if there's any possibility of that failing silently [12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if the prim has a large inventory the "tell" is that the inventory pops up instantly in your viewer rather than refetching it [12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: most with fast changes as far i remeber [12:00] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: This: "MinimumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered = 10" and this: "; MaximumTimeBeforePersistenceConsidered = 100" [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yes ,those settings affect all non-asset aspects of a prim (position, size, etc.) [12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it you then just click off the prim onto the ground and then back on it, the inventory fetch is done again [12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then when you go into the script you see the correct "current" version [12:01] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: so your saying Justin that those only apply to prim objects? [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: and asset references (which texture is referenced) [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: hmmm [12:01] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: e.g., rezzed things [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: well, a changed script should be persisted immediately with a unique UUID. However, I believe the object reference to that script would only change on that delayed persistence [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: so if the sim crashed before persistence it could still point to the older script asset [12:02] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: nods [12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ah...so it's pulling up the old UUID of the prechanged script [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk [12:03]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: I think a good golden rule here is dont rush the sim with these workflows [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That sounds not good [12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah, I've learned to be pretty good about it but when you're in a rush you sometimes click before you think :p [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the tradeoff between lots of sim work (constantly saving prim changes that may be very temporary) or getting better performance with more risk of losing data if the sim crashes [12:03] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: close and reopen your editors periodically and take frequent snapshot copies of objects into inventory while working [12:03] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: all things I do pretty much anyway [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: also this is why a sim should always be shutdown property via quit and not just process killed [12:04] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: yes [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: in case there is still data waiting to be written [12:04] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: yes [12:04] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: ctrl+c == badness [12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, so dont use linux with screen ^^ [12:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *if* you are able to do a controlled shutdown, yes [12:05] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I update my grid with "killall -HUP mono" ;D [12:05] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: lol Dahlia [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: always type backup [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: before you ctrl+c [12:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: when it hangs, you're dead [12:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol, most if you press ctrl-c its not planned to press it in that window [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: as long as you type the backup command, doing a ctrl+c is generally safe, ive never had a problem [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I sometimes think it would be good to intercept ctrl+c but that would have to be some mono specific code with accompanying messiness [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I have sometimes accidentally ctrl+c'd simulators [12:06] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: if you run a windows environment, I hear you can do some really sexy things with powershell [12:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i just shudown [12:07] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well my grid is usually very static so there's nothing to back up [12:07]  Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: as far as hung .net processes [12:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if the region is locked up doing an infinite inventory fetch or due to a high latency viewer there's no way at all to presist anything that changed...it just hangs forever [12:07] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I think there is some backup that runs on a timer [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and attend to various things [12:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we should clean out hung network requests on a shutdown [12:08] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: Hey Justin [12:08] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so even if the sim is hung you still get older changes [12:08] Hiro.Protagonist @71.6.202.72:8002: Thanks Man :D [12:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: take care Justin [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks around [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey waves