Chat log from the meeting on 2022-03-15

 [11:00] Kayaker Magic: OMG, you know everyone in Europe is going to be an hour late to this meeting, right? [11:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll go poke Ubit. [11:01] Kayaker Magic: Hi Selby! [11:01] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello! [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll wait a few minutes to see if we get some late arrivals today. [11:03] Kayaker Magic: For the record, I'll repeat: Everyone in Europe is going to be an hour late for this meeting because of Daylight Wastings Time in California. [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:03] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: :)) [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't remember it was this past weekend or I would have mentioned it at last weeks meeting. [11:04] Kayaker Magic: It snuck up on me Sunday. [11:06] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i didn't even realize till someoen commented monday - all my timepieces autoupdate, and I work so late and get up so early I always get up tired. I didn't even realized I'd lost an hour :)) [11:08] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:08] Kayaker Magic: I have a clock that auto-updates, using the pre-2007 formula (my stupid government changed it in 2007 so we're 2 weeks off from Europe). [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit [11:09] Ubit Umarov: us changed very soon [11:09] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hey ubit [11:09] Kayaker Magic: So that clock doesn't change on time, so I change it manually, then two weeks later it changes again. [11:09] Ubit Umarov: here will be on last sunday this month [11:09] Ubit Umarov: ie next 27th [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, the clocks move forward earlier in the year and backwards later in the year than in the not too distant past. [11:10] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that must be so fun kayaker :/ [11:10] Kayaker Magic: so for 2 or three weeks I have clocks that are 3 hours apart. Until I got a modern cellphone I had no idea what time it was during this period. [11:10] Ubit Umarov: guess eu ppl doesnt know grid time change, as i didn't :) [11:11] Ubit Umarov: saved by plugh :) [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:11] Ubit Umarov: why doesn't usa use eu rules on that? gezz [11:11] Kayaker Magic: We used to! [11:12] Ubit Umarov: well eu did plan to stop changing [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: We always have about a two week period between when the clocks change in NA vs when they change in EU. [11:12] Kayaker Magic: Then congress changed it in 2007 because someone thought it would save energy to change it by 2 weeks. [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: There is talk of no longer changing in NA as well but they are still talking about it. [11:12] Ubit Umarov: not sure this changes same any energy now [11:13] Ubit Umarov: same? save!! [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, the California government has been promising to stop changing. They have been talking for years, might get around to it soon. [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Then my new clocks will be wrong.... [11:13] Ubit Umarov: there was some mess and eu just delayed decision for ever :) [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Use UTC time and you never have to change the clocks. ;) [11:14] Ubit Umarov: i did not like the fact countries could pick to stay on summer time or winter [11:14] Ubit Umarov: that would make the time confusing all around [11:14] Kayaker Magic: China has one time zone for the whole country. Beijing time. [11:15] Ubit Umarov: well here whne we joined eu, gov decided to put us in berlin time.. central eu time [11:15] Jagga Meredith: voted down in an Alberta Canada referendum [11:15] Ubit Umarov: we have been like that for 2 years.. and almost had a revolution :p [11:16] Ubit Umarov: so back to our more natural time..  ie west ie utc :) [11:16] Ubit Umarov: ie bst ie gmt uff [11:16] Ubit Umarov: so many names for same thing :) [11:16] Kayaker Magic: zooloo time [11:17] Ubit Umarov: well time zones are political things, so each has own rules [11:17] Ubit Umarov: bst is uk, west is eu.. so.. well wahtever [11:18] Jagga Meredith: I may need to leave early to take the kittycat into the shop for repairs [11:18] Jagga Meredith: no issues [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I hope any needed repairs are minor. [11:19] Kayaker Magic: I've been looking at fsassets and how assets are stored, and noticed that images are gz compressed, even though they are already compressed J2K data! [11:19] Jagga Meredith: infected cut on her back [11:19] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh ouch [11:19] Kayaker Magic: The first few images I looked at got smaller when I gzdecoded them! [11:19] Kayaker Magic: so I did a test on a small grid and generate the following statistics: [11:19] Ubit Umarov: wel here we are at wet, will be at west :) [11:19] Kayaker Magic: 95,082 images, 49.1% were larger after gzipping 860 were the same size 1,884,482 wasted bytes in J2K files that got larger when gzipped, 223,436,677 saved bytes of storage 1.8% of the original J2K data Total size of all J2K compressed images before gz compression was 12,394,591,143 22.296327590942 seconds were wasted gzdecoding all the images. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: fsassets does fzip? [11:20] Ubit Umarov: or gzip [11:21] Ubit Umarov: well can't change that now on older grids [11:21] Kayaker Magic: they are GZ encoded. gunzip can read them, but I am using PHP to do that and calculate the statistics. [11:21] Ubit Umarov: but it is silly yes [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:21] Ubit Umarov: mesh are also already gzipped [11:22] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, but mesh have zipped and unziped sections. The few I looked at did benifit from gz compressiion. [11:22] Kayaker Magic: I'm going to do the statistics on the mesh next. [11:22] Ubit Umarov: unzipped is minor part [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: A mesh may compress but the associated textures may already be compressed. [11:23] Ubit Umarov: well that was made thinging abtu text assets [11:23] Ubit Umarov: like scripts and notecards i guess [11:23] Kayaker Magic: Small text files always get larger when gzipped, because the file has a header! [11:24] Ubit Umarov: no thye do not [11:24] Ubit Umarov: unless single letter :P [11:24] Ubit Umarov: ok very small [11:24] Ubit Umarov: but on those hard to have ziiped or not [11:27] Kayaker Magic: On a related subject: The mesh assets are stored as BINARY LLSD files. Does opensim read those, or just pass them on to the viewer? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: they are parsed on uploads [11:28] Ubit Umarov: but stored basicly has viewer sent [11:28] Ubit Umarov: as [11:28] Kayaker Magic: I wondered if there is any code in OpenSim that can decode those BINARY LLSD files. Is there a class for doing that? Something that converts them to XML? Reads them into an XML like DOM? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: i already told they are parsed, that means decoded and checked [11:29] Kayaker Magic: If Gavin were here, I'd ask him how the viewer does this... [11:29] Ubit Umarov: no point on converting to xml [11:30] Ubit Umarov: opensim has no use for that [11:30] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ive been on UI this week, so I was hoping to see gavin too lol [11:30] Kayaker Magic: When are they parsed and checked? Not every time they are needed by the viewer? 'cause the viewer has to do it's own parsing. [11:31] Ubit Umarov: mesh formats based on xml, like collada and gltr(?) are pure fails [11:31] Ubit Umarov: they are just 2 large to transmite [11:32] Ubit Umarov: comparing to other binary formats [11:32] Kayaker Magic: Well, LL documents LLSD format as an XML format, then in an appendix they say (oh, there is a binary version also, that we use everywhere) [11:32] Ubit Umarov: well gl?? does have a terrible binary format [11:32] Ubit Umarov: but meshs are not LLSD xml [11:32] Ubit Umarov: there are 3 types of LLSD [11:32] Kayaker Magic: correct, they are BINARY LLSD [11:32] Ubit Umarov: xl, notation and binary [11:33] Ubit Umarov: xlm.. [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Ubit already stated that mesh files are parsed and checked when uploaded. [11:33] Ubit Umarov: yes we do parse to do minimal checks and estimate upload cost and LI [11:34] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but when and why? Opensim could just send and recieve mesh a binay blobs to the viewer, from the viewer into the assets, etc. [11:34] Ubit Umarov: later physics engines and decode the physics parts [11:34] Ubit Umarov: warp3d map also decodes them, ofc [11:34] Ubit Umarov: as i said, that MUS be done at upload [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Parse and checked when uploading in to OpenSim. After that they would just be passed to the viewer as is. [11:35] Kayaker Magic: OK. Is there a class or module or something to decode them? [11:35] Ubit Umarov: you do not want us to accept any crap a viewr sends, do you? [11:35] Ubit Umarov: meshcosts.cs [11:35] Ubit Umarov: for example [11:35] Ubit Umarov: warp3d uses primmesher [11:35] Ubit Umarov: from libomv ??? [11:36] Ubit Umarov: physics use ubodemesmerizar or meshmerizer [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a while since I uploaded a mesh. I don't recall noticing a cost estimate prior to the final upload step. [11:36] Ubit Umarov: yes ew know you still only use 0.8.2 [11:37] Ubit Umarov: ofc default upload base price is 0 [11:37] Ubit Umarov: well on last week code changes [11:38] Ubit Umarov: VIncent did try to clean up some source files [11:38] Ubit Umarov: still with non standard indentation.. tabs etc [11:39] Ubit Umarov: i did some work on a new email module [11:39] Ubit Umarov: decided to use a older version of mailkit [11:39] Ubit Umarov: that is a version actually made for .net4.6 [11:40] Ubit Umarov: and not the more recent crap that in same cases try to add 100 dlls [11:40] Ubit Umarov: to make .net4 to look like .net5 [11:40] Ubit Umarov: in fact in same cases useing very dangerus hacks [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, No. I'm on 0.9 [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: git master. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: so i went to like 2018 version of 2019 [11:41] Ubit Umarov: still .netframework clean.. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: all changes them made after where basicly converting to .net5 as i said [11:42] Ubit Umarov: ohhh it i 2020 [11:42] Ubit Umarov: it is.. [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, the new MailKit based mail module was added on the day of last weeks meeting not long after Ubit had been telling me how bad it was and that I should not be using it. :P [11:42] Ubit Umarov: 2.9.0   1,937,339    9/12/2020 [11:43] Ubit Umarov: yes i had look to recent versions [11:43] Ubit Umarov: then as i just said went to the 2020 version [11:43] Ubit Umarov: that is pure .net framework [11:44] Ubit Umarov: well needs anohter one for ssl, but that is also clean .net framework [11:44] Ubit Umarov: but this only adds tls [11:45] Ubit Umarov: to actuall have a working llEmail people need to run own mailler [11:45] Ubit Umarov: gmail will just stop working in May [11:46] Ubit Umarov: others still accept simple tls connections, but do heavy checks on sender [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: When I was looking at MailKit it offered more than just TLS, IIRC. [11:46] Ubit Umarov: so basicly only one machine can send [11:47] Ubit Umarov: even so in same cases you need to go look to your mobile phone and then go a web site to put codes [11:47] Ubit Umarov: email is getting totally outside the use of applications like opensim [11:48] Ubit Umarov: so only grids, running own postifix or similar, with full credentials set can actually send emails [11:49] Ubit Umarov: and we never had llemail for prims [11:49] Ubit Umarov: only inside same region [11:50] Ubit Umarov: so it only words sending messages to prims on same region, or with many restrictions, emails to humans [11:50] George Equus is on [11:50] Ubit Umarov: and very easy a script totally trigger maillers anti-spam thing,s and totally block a account [11:52] Ubit Umarov: with this llEmail, should just be unsupported, except by grids having the extra needed support [11:52] Ubit Umarov: but well the modules are there, and still looking.. [11:53] Ubit Umarov: err stll 2 modules the EmailModule and EmailModule2 [11:54] Ubit Umarov: i will merge them soon [11:54] Ubit Umarov: EmailModule is the one we had so far without tls [11:54] Ubit Umarov: and yes andrew [11:55] Ubit Umarov: mailkit does a lot more than tls, and all useless [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at almost 5 minutes to the top of the hour. Does anyone have a question or comment to make before the hour is up? [11:55] Ubit Umarov: only feature actually usefull for most maillers is just that ssl/tls [11:55] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i guess not this week [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I don't think it was all useless. You can't predict what some external mail system will want from a sender. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: for special ones, you need a special module anyways.. so.. whatever [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: The barmade has become invisible or we are haunted by the ghost of a barmade. :) [11:57] Ubit Umarov: btw gmail and others will not work, because move to OAuth [11:58] Ubit Umarov: and that is almost one set of code for each.. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: and requere a application registration.. with a clientID and clientSecret [11:58] Ubit Umarov: not sure how that can work with a opensource app like opensim [11:59] Ubit Umarov: also needs websites for user to confirm things.. etc [11:59] Ubit Umarov: a total useless mess [11:59] Ubit Umarov: i may actully kill my gmail account [12:00] Ubit Umarov: i just have no time for the stupidity of confirmations it now wants [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a family member who uses gmail. I don't know what they will do when that gmail changes their system. I don't use gmail so that is unlikely to affect me. [12:00] Ubit Umarov: yes gavins usa changed time at strange moments... [12:01] Ubit Umarov: for web access, it works.. [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that did not register with me :-) [12:01] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hey Gavin [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin. [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi all [12:01] Ubit Umarov: if you have the mobile phone at and to receive tokens [12:01] Ubit Umarov: at hand.. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Not everyone has a mobile phone. [12:01] Ubit Umarov: fun [12:02] Ubit Umarov: i can't do anything on my bank site without the mobile phone [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is voice down or is it just me? [12:02] Ubit Umarov: stupid 2 factor auth means that [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I see white dots above heads so it may be just at your end. [12:02] Ubit Umarov: i have voice always off [12:03] Kayaker Magic: Welcome to the end of the meeting Gavin! California is an hour early this week. [12:03] Ubit Umarov: no idea [12:03] Ubit Umarov: well let me see more code changes [12:03] Ubit Umarov: not much [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably - compiled the viewer with an new version of Xcode and catastrophe ensues... [12:03] Kayaker Magic: I heard Selby on voice [12:03] Jagga Meredith: gotta go catch cat. wish me luck. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jagga. Hope it goes well. [12:03] Ubit Umarov: a few cosmetics changes, like the indentation etc [12:04] Ubit Umarov: some "useless ones" like save a bit of cpu time here and there [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit has been busy making code changes this week. He must be on March break. :) [12:05] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i've got to head out again, but have a great week everyone!@ [12:05] Ubit Umarov: changed how getdisplaynames work to save some useless copis of strings [12:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all [12:05] Ubit Umarov: cya [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby. [12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Indented someones code and nuked all the tabs from orbit [12:07] Ubit Umarov: removed strack trace on some Yengine script errors [12:07] Ubit Umarov: well the out of heap ones [12:07] Ubit Umarov: ahh on size of lists [12:07] Ubit Umarov: made each strig char count as 2 bytes [12:07] Ubit Umarov: it was counting as one so far [12:08] Ubit Umarov: it also counts the pointers [12:08] Ubit Umarov: that is 8 bytes per entry on the list [12:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Cleared or fixed a ton of mantis tickets too which will hopefully continue at a good pace to clear some of the backlog out, though the level of testing required for some of them means it'll be a while [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ( 4 in 32 bit mode ) [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, where is that string char count used? [12:09] Ubit Umarov: so your big scripts may get out of memory now :) [12:10] Ubit Umarov: script memory usage, for example, andrew [12:10] Ubit Umarov: is byte counts.. was not [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Can't it detect the char size or are scripts always saved with two bytes per char? [12:11] Ubit Umarov: .net char is utf-16 ie 2bytes [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought there wasn't a limit on script size with OS. [12:12] Ubit Umarov: Y does limit heap and stack use per script [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope this won't break one of my scripts that is 3,000 lines long. [12:12] Ubit Umarov: X did only limit stack, blowing up a violating script [12:13] Ubit Umarov: there are ini entries to set the limits [12:13] Ubit Umarov: well and this limits are old info [12:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: This was adjusted after the whole heap size thing that was regarding a mantis ticket, which I still don't fully comprehend, but is evidently out of spec for what reasonable limits we do have [12:13] Ubit Umarov: the onlly dif is fix on strings byte len, as i said [12:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If you are running out of heap you are doing something very wrong or are trying to implement a kernel in LSL [12:14] Ubit Umarov: well it is easy to run out of defautl heap now [12:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Doing it on purpose doesn't count lol [12:14] Ubit Umarov: nahh [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:15] Ubit Umarov: ofc Xengine did let your script send all memory to swap [12:15] Ubit Umarov: and also fill swap :p [12:16] Ubit Umarov: yeha there was a mantis, but that jsut made me look [12:16] Ubit Umarov: the mantis was bad [12:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Half the stuff I been closing are things that just lack information making it near impossible to figure out what exactly is wrong [12:17] Ubit Umarov: they wehre tring to detect max allowed heap by filling it on Xengine [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: That's nasty. [12:17] Ubit Umarov: that could mean they where sending the entire box into swap [12:18] Ubit Umarov: ofc Yengine does have getfreememory [12:18] Ubit Umarov: and used [12:19] Ubit Umarov: ll.. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: sad this llemail thing [12:20] Ubit Umarov: i may try to fix it for internal prims use [12:20] Ubit Umarov: it was a fail to do it region side [12:20] Ubit Umarov: it must be grid side [12:20] Ubit Umarov: a simple c# mailler [12:21] Ubit Umarov: that is also the only poit that tries to send to a external mailler [12:21] Ubit Umarov: to it can control quotas etc [12:21] Ubit Umarov: and not let it jsut get blocked [12:22] Ubit Umarov: and take email to prims totally out [12:22] Ubit Umarov: just i do not like the http pooling reading those may require [12:22] Ubit Umarov: pooling just does not scale well with grid size [12:24] Ubit Umarov: well a bit pass the hour no? [12:24] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Just a bit. :) [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap it up for this week. [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.