Chat log from the meeting on 2011-04-19

[11:03] Sarah Kline: hi Dave [11:03] Cai Laval: hi dave [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin ! [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:03] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: back [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, why's justin invisible ? [11:03] Dutchy Daredevil: hi Justin [11:03] Sarah Kline: hi Justin invisible [11:03] Cai Laval: wb allen [11:03] Cai Laval: hi justin [11:04] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: ty [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: there he is [11:04]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: hey justin [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus, nebadon, sarah, dutchy, cai, folks [11:04] Dutchy Daredevil: wb Allen [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: just a little slow :) [11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin [11:04]  Cai Laval: heh must be an unkown user around..cant see him....hello to:)) [11:04]  Dave Coyle is Offline [11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: something is seriously wrong with my eyes [11:05]  Dutchy Daredevil: soorry i detached al my birds [11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wrong shirt justin. must be i love OSG :P)) [11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: oh i lost 2 days ago mine to. [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: might try making new eyes Justin [11:06]  Dave Coyle is Online [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah yeah that worked, phew [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: just needed to rewear them [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: welcome back Dave [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: if somebody has an I love osgrid shirt I will happily wear it :0 [11:06]  Dave Coyle: now where did my pants go... [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:07]  Cai Laval: laughs, hopes iam wearing a shirt.. [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I see you are running the very latest code here? [11:07] Master Dubrovna: Neb I just had to restart one of my sims. It was spewing red. [11:07] Master Dubrovna: http://pastebin.com/pXeVWRyF [11:07] Master Dubrovna: That happened with another one when I updated this morning. [11:08] Master Dubrovna: the restart stopped it [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: wierd [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: bad sculpty maybe [11:08] Cai Laval: happend with us to... [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: yes. you where faster neb [11:08] Cai Laval: lots of erorr message .. [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: most times its only once when i load oar [11:09] Master Dubrovna: I restarted it and its fine at the moment [11:09] Cai Laval: yes ..same with us.. [11:09] Dutchy Daredevil: yeaa 44 iunches full of msg [11:09] Dutchy Daredevil: or more [11:09] Master Dubrovna: yes [11:09] Cai Laval: red allert [11:09] Master Dubrovna: I have three logs of spew [11:09] Dutchy Daredevil: inches [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I mentioned earlier before alot of you got here, that I am updating the Movie theatre here on Wright Plaza [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: adding in a bunch of new freebie CG type movies [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: you can seee some of the posters on the front of the Movie Building here [11:11] Dutchy Daredevil: yea true i was orgottn [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: couple are added in, hope to have the rest in today [11:11] Dutchy Daredevil: thoghtsit was done already [11:11] kira moon: pout in the movie Rio or Hop lol [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: new stuff is on screen #3 [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: heh cant [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: those are commercial movies [11:11] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: big buck bunny? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i am only interested in open / free movies [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: how does the latest merge from queuetest feel? [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya Big Buck bunny was made with Blender [11:12] kira moon: wana see somethig awesome ands colol,a nd lots of exsplosions and adventure [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so is Sintel and Elephants Dream [11:12] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: yeah. haven't had a chance to watch sintel yet [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: feels pretty good so far Justin [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: this sim is running it [11:12]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.1 Dev          36c4e94: 2011-04-18 23:22:04 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: the newest Osgrid Release has it also [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: did you know, the master freeswitch config params are completley wrong [11:13] Penny Lane is Online [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i havent heard really any complaints so far [11:13] Nebadon Izumi is shocked! [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: cool, pls let me know if there are any anomolies, otherwise it will go into rc1 [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: literally like in 1 in 1000 people can make freeswitch work [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey farts [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: ha [11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: you mean the fsapi justin ? where /api [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: when/if I get this working I will update those config params [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know why they had to be changed in the first place [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool [11:14] Dutchy Daredevil: if i knew those good settings ?? [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: yeah - all the settings are wrong for master [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: not the content, the actual names of the settings themselves [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey rolls his eyes [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: whats changed in master. for a whiole its /fsapi [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: wonder how that happened [11:14] Dutchy Daredevil: i wanna use those to [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe someone reverted it didnt realize they did [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: have soemthing to do with different voiuce systems that can come i think [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: no, it was carelessness as far as I can see [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, no poit arguing about it [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ehhee [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: ok, just whats it on master now ? /api or /fsapi ? [11:15] Dave Coyle: i thought everything in virtual worlds came about through conspiracy [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: fsapi [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: though in theory it's configurable [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey shuffles [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: lol [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: its really not suprising, the demand for voice is quite low in general [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe because it's impossible to get working unless you start reading the code :) [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: even when you do get Freeswitch working [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: it sucks [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I would prefer not to go backawrds on this issue, tho [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: afaik, it kinda works [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why i havent even bothered try to make it work on the plazas [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya "kinda" [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no indicator of who is speaking though [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: you can not mute [11:17]  Richardus Raymaker: it works here. or worked lol not test it for a while. but neve use iyt. sounds good. but mis lots of god functions [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: there is literally no control [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: say you get someone with the mic stuck up their nose [11:17]  Dutchy Daredevil: ooo ?i see always name boxes [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and all you hear is breathing [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: you literally can not tell who it is or stop it [11:17]  Dutchy Daredevil: no one found to test it [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: does not work well in an enviornment like the plazas [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: probably not bad if you and a friend want to chat [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know why there isn't speaker indication? I would have thought in theory that could be implented [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but if its you and a freind might as well just use skype [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect because it signal is probably embeded in the audio transmission [11:18] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: it probably has to do with the way slvoice.exe talks to the client [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and Freeswitch isnt sending it [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: justin, mumble seems to have lost of misisng things. but that have other problems [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya right now there is no real good voice option unfortunatly [11:19] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: other than purchasing vivox [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: good luck with that [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey grins [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Vivox is so unprofessional from my experience in their dealing with customers [11:19] Hiro Protagonist: from what I hear, the new mumble/murmur integration is not half bad [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: unless your spending 20-30 grand a year [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: good we dont really mis voice justin :) [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: good luck getting a response [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: personally, I'd love to have voice for some things [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt mind having it working as long as it worked well [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: and worked well for everyone [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: Whisper/Mumble has too many hoops [11:20]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: problem with mumble is it the client doesn't work out of the box [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, you know these things usually start with it working badly [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: We have it running for a couple of our clients [11:20]  xstorm Radek is Online [11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: it's channeled out all the way down to the parcel level [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: oh hey Hiro, didnt notice you were here :D [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: XD [11:21]  Hiro Protagonist: snuck up on ya ;)] [11:21]  Dave Coyle: what's their overall experience been with it? [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i hear it works well [11:21]  Hiro Protagonist: I havent personally tried it, my nephew did the installation [11:21]  Hiro Protagonist: all I know is, they arent whining about voice any more ;) [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but for the general masses, explaining how to make it work is a bit of a learning curve there [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: freeswithc works nice and easy under linux. hen you found out that /api chaned into /fsapi dont know what the set it in master to [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: oh yes, putting it together is easily as complex as opensim itself [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect it also breaks general voice functonality right now [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its either Mumble or Vivox [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: cant have both [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: the big problem is, everybody is lazy [11:22] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: I found a work around by installing the client twice [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: everybody thinks they're gonna run an install wizard and voila [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: some people need that though [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats what i was saying for the general masses, its a bit of learning involved [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: if they need that then they're not really ready to run opensim [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: lots of hand holding [11:23] Hiro Protagonist: cheers Justin [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: well [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: im not talking about people running opensim [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its one thing to run the sim [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: yah I know [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its another to have guests over [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: you talk now about mumble or freeswitch. it seems people have lots of trouble withnFS + windows [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: and have to explain to someone who can barely install a viewer to take things 1 step further [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: ok, first time it costed me 14 days reseacrh before freeswithc worked :P [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: I have never gotten freeswitch to do anything to my satisfaction [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: then again, how many people run their own webservers? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not many [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: the one place I went that freeswitch was 'working', it sucked sio bad why bother [11:25] Hiro Protagonist: sound quality was shit [11:25] Hiro Protagonist: absolutely zero indication of who is talking [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but what if you had to have every person who visited your website download some wierd obscure app to see it [11:25]  Hiro Protagonist: well, this isnt the typical situation [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: some undocumented app with no auto installer routines [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: you would not get many visitors [11:25] Hiro Protagonist: we're probably the only server project in history that doesn't have a standard compatible (and open) reference client [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you mean mumble, or the standard client? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Whisper [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: the mumble client for the viewer [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it requires downloading and dropping in files to the viewer [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: that breaks Vivox/Freeswitch [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm a little surprised a tpv doesn't bundle it, but I guess if vivox doesn't play well with it that could be fatal [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it would be like asking someone to download a custom java for firefox [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: that would break eveyr other website that uses java [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: not many people willing to do that [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: maby LL use someday mumble. if the can save money. [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: is freeswitch the only solution for this out there? what about asterisk? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know much about asterisk [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: thats where opensim started [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: freeswith = modified astrix ? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: and it never got very far [11:27] Dave Coyle: amazingly freeswitch is astrisk-that-sucks-less [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i think its the codec [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: if your going to use the SLvoice.exe [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: it requires a very specific codec that only Vivox and Freeswitch offer [11:28] Penny Lane: There's a new one from FSF too, but don't know how far advanced, GNU FreeCall. [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's what I guessed [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya and does it have the proper codec [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, my short term objective is just to fix this config nonsense and hopefully find out why viewer 2 connections constantly generate server spam [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen Sintel video yet [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: its possible to use other codecs but it means breaking Vivox/Freeswitch compatibility [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya, thats good justin [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i mean if were going to have freeswitch support its better it works easily [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I would rather retain it than get rid of it [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i know people are using it [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: at some poitn I'm interested in taking a better look, but that will be queued behind the other thousand things that I want to do :) [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: much more important things need fixing [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: and if it's semi-working someone else might get interested again at some point [11:29]  Richardus Raymaker: freeswithc still must used in osgrid sofar i know [11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, perhaps we should talk about another toipc if there is one [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: Actually Neb - in re: java [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: there are no less than three java 'standards' [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: right, it was just an example [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: and if you dont have the one needed for a particular website, well, your options are limited [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: it could apply to any web browser plug in [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe web browser comparison probably isnt a real good one [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: just look at IE [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing ever works right in IE [11:31]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: oh justin. still having the same problem with coals [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: what is the problem your seeing Allen [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ? [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: are you DragonEagle? [11:32] Hiro Protagonist: lol right [11:32] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: they're not coming into inventory as a single coal. yesterday I ended up with 64 individual boxes coming in [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but i think in general its a semi-good comparison [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: if your website is popular [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: the websites that stray too far generally are limited in their popularity [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: it is, in the sense that it reflects a general state of affairs in web technologies in general; which tells us two things, really [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: will need a pastebin of "config show" from region console command line, and "show version" [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: your not gonna be the next facebook, if you require users to jump through hoops [11:33] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com wonders if flash on a prim might be a good option for voice [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: that was my only real point [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: 1. we're not really doing much more poorly than most at present [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: 2. we could still do better [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: (so could the rest of the wonkish plugin applications out there ;) [11:34] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: ok, but you're not gonna like it.... [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if you apply the KISS mentality, then your more likely to have a succesful product [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: yes [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: but not applying said principal is no guaruntee of fail either [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya true [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: most never heared about KISS im afraid. [11:35] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: http://pastebin.com/YuQVyad3 [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: hi blue [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: KISS = Keep it Simple Stupid [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: well, having to download a separate exe is a non-starter for anythign except experimental anyway [11:35] BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: hey Bluewall [11:35] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: hey blue [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Blue :) [11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: Yes nebadon. but why are so many things so uber complex [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: Hi BlueWall [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: RR: It's their nature [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: sorry to be late - was running an errand [11:35]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Blue wall [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: well when your creating new things, sometimes its hard to see the forest through the trees [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: hi [11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: if everything were simple, we'd not have a word like 'complex' [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: Allen: if there's no config show then your code copy is very old [11:36]  BlueWall Slade: what are we messing up today? [11:36]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: my code was pulled yesterday [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: each other's heads ? ;) [11:36] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:36] BlueWall Slade is Online [11:36] BlueWall Slade: I dont' need any help in that dept. [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: LL is a good example [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: somehow the update isn't happening [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: they were making something new not many had tried before [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and in doing so they created a monster pile of spaghetti code [11:36] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: alright I'm gonna do a re-clone and see what happens [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: that literally no one understands [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its easy in hindsight to say wow this blows [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but starting something from scratch is never easy [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: well said [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: urgh, have to add the git commit version back into "show version" [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey sighs [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: witness egress [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: everyone who saw it went nuts [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: Allen: what's the first commit number in your "git log"? [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: while it was still just a mock up essentially [11:38] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: recloning now [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: to add git version to show version use this [11:38] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: we'll table it for now. I just wiped my opensim source dir [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: well. ppl are really hungry for these add-ons but they aren't being built [11:38] BlueWall Slade: what's wrong with the hash? [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Allen: ah, the impetuosity of youth :) [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: >> git log -n 1 --pretty="format:%h: %ci" > bin/.version [11:38]  BlueWall Slade: ++ neb [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: from the project root [11:39]  BlueWall Slade: I usually do git log -n1 --pretty=format:%h-%ct [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya ive seen a few variations [11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: thanks neb, this time i stored it [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: for OSgrid i just make my own [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: for the osgrid release [11:39]  BlueWall Slade: I have been working on something that I need to put up [11:39]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: I'll retest after I rebuild after the meeting.... kinda connected through it right now [11:39]  BlueWall Slade: not sure if it should go in a branch, or master [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: the osgrid release is not built on git pull though [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i download the zip source from http://opensimulator.org/viewgit [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: if it's major, it would be really good to see it in a branch until we've done 0.7.1 [11:40] BlueWall Slade: ok [11:40]  BlueWall Slade: I can do a branch [11:40] BlueWall Slade: it doe3sn't seem to break things [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: bbiaf [11:40] BlueWall Slade: but, we can look at it [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: sounds good [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: what is it your working on Bluewall? [11:41] BlueWall Slade: I've started making the users docs for it [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: for OpenSim [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ? [11:42] BlueWall Slade: http://bluewallvirtual.com/node/5 [11:42] BlueWall Slade: it is exposing a way to develop connectors in the addon-modules dir with region modules, etc. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: cool i got access denied on that page [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but sounds cool [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: for what end? [11:43] BlueWall Slade: and it is meant for web applications, etc. to be able to let OpenSimulator manage the data etc. [11:43]  BlueWall Slade: no more allowing access to things for raw data access needed. [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i think i remember you telling me about this before [11:44] BlueWall Slade: yes, it was a while back [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: be interesting to see what comes of that for sure [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Justin how close are we to an actual 0.7.1 tagging? [11:45] Dutchy Daredevil: i got acces in that page [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: release candidate on thurs, possibly. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I just published it - it was locked [11:46] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: schweet [11:46] BlueWall Slade: nice [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: oh let me look again then [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm away all day tomorrow [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I need to do a little more testing here with it, then I'll push a branch this evening [11:47] BlueWall Slade: anything in particular holding us up on the release? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: im still getting access denied [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: no biggie [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: freeswitch config and that viewer 2 thing [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: what is the viewer 2 thing? [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: if the viewer 2 problem isn't addressable then we will just have to go [11:48]  BlueWall Slade: ohhh [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Cai's body and clothing finally appeared [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: if freeswitch is active and a viewre 2 connects, the console gets continually spammed because the client isn't satisfied with the data we're giving back to it in some way [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ah [11:48]  Dutchy Daredevil: yeaa tool a lot time [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: and so keeps continually requesting, I think [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: k [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: this is a big problem if freeswitch is active, unless you ban viewer 2 connections [11:48] BlueWall Slade: it looks like they have required some extra credentials for connecting [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: but I don't think we even have the tools to do that yet [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: could remove the log line but that would be pretty bad cheating :) [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we really do not have an easy way to ban viewers [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: I dno't know of any way to decrypt the communications there [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: speak to surrealize [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: so the response from the server back to vivox is being encrypted? [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: they seem to have completley broken down the vivox packetry [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: they maybe can help [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: they uses wireshark i think [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: uses=used* [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: I captured a lot of stuff with wireshark, and they were [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: who are surrealize? [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: on IRC [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: but don't we send it back in plaintext? I don't understand [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: they are offline a tthe moment it seems [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: if there would be a way to detect SL2 viewewr you can tell them maby there's no voice as fix. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: "surrealiz3" [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: is thier actual IRC handle [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know why they analyzed it? [11:51] BlueWall Slade: they seem to be working on a replacement slvoice [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i think they were trying to make it work better [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: I would happily do that if I knew how [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: they were trying to get the indiciators working etc. i beleive [11:52] BlueWall Slade: ahhh, maybe the codec in FS [11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: does that not doint the opposite ? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i asked them to keep in communication with us [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: and tell us how things were progressing [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: Hmmmmmmmmm [11:52] BlueWall Slade: maybe the connection between the slvoice and the viewer will tell something? [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: if we kept a record of viewer type then we could deny them the caps in the first place... [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I bet that's a pita though [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: its not that hard [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: everytime a viewer logs in it passes that data [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: you just need to log it [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's the problem [11:53] Sarah Kline: rather have mesh than voice ) [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess we could stick it in a field somewhere. bit of a hack though [11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: same here heh [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: sarah: ha [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: make a new table [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what i would do [11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: mesh. yes. offocrse not doe much with it. but can be impoirtant to get more avatars [11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it doesn't need to be persistent - could probably live in the agent cirtcuit data [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: urgh, I don't really want to be doing that this close to actually trying to do a release though [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey sighs [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh well, we'll see [11:55]  BlueWall Slade: this is an rc releas? [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: right [11:55]  Richardus Raymaker: just say that sl2 is not good supported and let them use a better viewer :) [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: id wait [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but I would like the rc to be as close to release as possible [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: honestly anyone using V2 [11:55]  BlueWall Slade: yes [11:55] Dutchy Daredevil is Offline [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: is in for a world of hurt [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: there are worse things than Vivox spew [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: beleive me [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: much worse [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: like what? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Current Outfit folder [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you can amass literally 100's of items [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: then not be able to log in anymore [11:56] Dave Coyle: we'd all be better served by more frequent releases vs. slow, big releases that try to fix everything under the sun, IMO [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: lol [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: inventory eating gritters ? [11:56] BlueWall Slade: those can be on the radar for the next one [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: honestly i doubt many are using V2 for very long [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: yes. If ppl concentrated on keeping git master properly working always then we could do that [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: after a few days/weeks [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: more regression tests would help as well [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: you will get locked out of the grid [11:56] Sarah Kline: no its not usable on opensim really [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: unfortunately, not everyone wants to do that [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: my record is 980 items [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: in my COF [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its easy for me to clear it out though [11:57] Sarah Kline: you can? [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: the only way to fix it here on OSgrid is have me fix it for you [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: how do they get there? [11:57] Sarah Kline: oh [11:57]  Hiro Protagonist: one of our unacknowleged problems as a dev effort is there are too many self-invested factions in dev circles [11:57] Dave Coyle: you don't need master "always" working. working once is enough to branch off for a release [11:57] Sarah Kline: k [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: that I do not know Justin [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: we obviously are not communicating properly with V2 [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: SianaGearz was looking into it [11:57]  Dutchy Daredevil is Online [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not sure of where they are though with that [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: we have some devs who just thumb their noses at good sense and do wtf ever they want [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: working once is an equivalent problem, because people don't look to do that and there aren't tests to show it [11:58]  Hiro Protagonist: not mentioning any names, y'all know what I'm on about [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I have a feeling this is connected with the inventory links issue I hear about [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I think ArminW has a similar problem logging in [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: ya not sure, i still do not know what inventory links are [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey thinks some research is warranted :) [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: the biggest offenders of that Hiro [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: is Linden lab [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: they do some seriously stupid shit [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: and do not document it [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: and call their process open [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: pffft [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: wtf ever [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: this would be like the pot calling the kettle black though [11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: LOL yeah, very true Neb, but I was referring more to our project ;) [11:59] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: it's questionable whether it's in their interest to have opensim working :) [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: well alot of what we do [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: compensates for their stupid stuff [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: we end up doing stupid things as a result [12:00]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: brb [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: and our current no looking at viewer policy [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: makes things even more difficult [12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah [12:00]  Dutchy Daredevil: back lol [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully we'll get past that soon [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: next few months [12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: I dont think the original author of that policy is really even behind it anymore [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: that wont be a problem anymore [12:00]  Cai Laval: wb dutch [12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: nods [12:00]  Penny Lane: LL is a business with their own business interests, which are not the interests of their community, and even less the interests of the open community. You rely on them, or try to be compatible with them, or let them lead your way, at your peril. [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: none of us are Hiro [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but you gotta do things the right way [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: nobody else has the man hours to invest in a viewer [12:01] Hiro Protagonist: yep [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: wb dutch [12:01] Penny Lane: JCC: Naali [12:01] Sarah Kline: wb d [12:01]  Dutchy Daredevil: ty RIRA [12:01] BlueWall Slade: I think LL opensource is a ploy to confuse the people that would otherwise be here helping actually do something [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: naali are using their own server plugin now [12:01] Hiro Protagonist: ++Bluewall [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: Penny, find a viewer that dont need LL and is working. then opensim can change [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: Rope-A-Dope Programming [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: heh [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think so. I think activity reflects real demand [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: LL is a shattered mess [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: which is not that high because everything is very primitive and lots of stuff is at the research stage [12:02] Penny Lane: If you have a problem with the Naali people, then I don't know what to say. All hope is lost. [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: they are working hard to pick up the peices [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: but the damage is done [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: something happend with naali ? [12:03] Hiro Protagonist: yeah [12:03] BlueWall Slade: I think the server in Nalli is their version of a standalone-development setup? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I find Naali and the whole Rex project difficult to grasp [12:03] Hiro Protagonist: we didnt all fall down and worship it [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i have had very little success making it do anything useful [12:03] Hiro Protagonist: all they had to do was make it grid capable [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: naali is immature. There isn't enough demand for that viewer [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: what kind of braindead logic led them to make every region an autonomous space I will never know [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it seems very niche at the moment [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: with a particularlly narrow vision of the Virtual World [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully that changes [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: yes [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: having said that. it might fix their use case better and be more manageable [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: there's something to be said for not being an infinitely configurable sprawl [12:04] Penny Lane: Naali may be immature, but LL is evil to your interests. Perhaps you haven't grasped that yet. [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Diva and I have been playing with unity [12:05] Hiro Protagonist: again, a business, with its own interests at stake, at the expense of the broader community [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: and are looking into the possibility of making a Unity viewer [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: for OpenSimulator [12:05] BlueWall Slade: heh, sounds like justine has been playing with Freeswitch [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: like it or not, the ll viewer is where the culture and the use cases that exist are [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: she seems very gung ho [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: more than I am [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: but hey, if she can make it work [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: I am on board [12:05] BlueWall Slade: I can't even run Unity [12:05] BlueWall Slade: :/ [12:05] Hiro Protagonist: if we can build with it, it's a great way to go - that is, if it can be fully open [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Unity for Linux is coming [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: also [12:06] Penny Lane: Justin: OK. Fair enough, if that's your view as a core develeoper. Opensim is lost. [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Unity for Flash player is coming [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I must admit, freeswitch logging is even more crazy than ours : [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: there will be options [12:06] BlueWall Slade: hehe [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I'm just one core developer, it's not everyone's viewer [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: also Unity will inevitably flip over to WebGL [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: as that matures [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: if people want to get opensimulator working with naali then the should put their patches where their mouth is - no one is stopipng them [12:06] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: what's the priority on enforcing limits? i.e. is it something I can work on without breaking something else? [12:06] Hiro Protagonist: Penny: OpenSim isn't lost. We are too fucking hard headed for that to happen under any circumstances. [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:07] BlueWall Slade: we just have to work hard as LL did to build community [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: I would love to see enforced limits. I think it could be worked on pretty indpednetly [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSimulator should never be tied to any one platform [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: the only reason we focus so much on LL viewer [12:07] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: ok guess I have a new project once I get my website done [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: is because it works well for 99% of the people who use it [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: Naali on the other hand [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: works well for about 5% of people who try it [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: I know i have pretty much no luck with it [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would love to get away from being reliant on LL's undocumented protocol and changes. But in the short term, it'[s just not realistic in my view [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and I am trying to make it work [12:08] Sarah Kline: this is our browser like firefox ect [12:08] Penny Lane: I love Impy, I've been using it for years, and am using it now. But the Impy devs don't seem to understand the task they've undertaken in designing on a codebase that is led by Linden. It's an eternity of merge problems, and worse, it's being told what to do and where they allowed to go. And Opensim's strings are pulled by Lindens through those TPVs, always limiting your architecture and future prospects. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: sure, in the long term LL viewer is not realistic future [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone claims it is [12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: but making a replacement viewer is going to take years [12:09] Sarah Kline: i dont think LL are evil lol [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: exactly - there are countless man hours in the ll viewer [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is literally whole lifetimes involved in LL viewer development [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: if you added up all the man hours its probably like 20+ years of developemnt [12:10] Penny Lane: Agreed, it's not an easy task. But following Linden is worse than a very difficult task. It's an impossible one, forever, and it doesn't lead where you want. [12:10] BlueWall Slade: I remember Gimp when it first came out [12:10] Hiro Protagonist: Penny your logic is sound enough [12:10] BlueWall Slade: it worked really good then [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes but on the other hand [12:10] Hiro Protagonist: but doesn't buy us anything [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Impy experimental has some features that I find intriguing as a builder which may make it be my new viewer of choice. [12:10] BlueWall Slade: and it gets better all the time [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: not many VW's have enjoyed the success LL has [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: look at bluemars [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: total flop [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, so do I. I've been part of the GIMP community for many years. [12:11] BlueWall Slade: coo [12:11] BlueWall Slade: L [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: turn it into a viewer :) [12:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: That was the other meeting I was in. [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: gawd :) [12:11] BlueWall Slade: hehe [12:11] Hiro Protagonist: that'd rock [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... sure. Wanna write a plug-in to make it a viewer? ;-) [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we need to find the lowest available fruit - which in my personal view is hypergrid [12:11]  Hiro Protagonist: there is VideoGimp - it already has scene graphs [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: I was using it as an example. Because it came form nowhere [12:11]  Dave Coyle: emacs virtual-world-mode anyone? [12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: starting to use gimp more and more. now i know it better [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: gvimsim [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: make that work better, with better tools and then adapt the ll viewer to be more hypergrid friendly (e.g. have the the address bar actually go to different simulators) [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, different installations [12:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: dave, hehe... why not. Emacs has just about everything else thrown in [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: then you get enough interest for people to start investing in different viewer tech [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe [12:12] Penny Lane: LOL dave [12:13] BlueWall Slade: I think webgl is the ticket [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: I tend to agree [12:13] BlueWall Slade: I think we are looking at the perfect storm brewing [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: this tech needs to converge back onto the web [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: it's already a big hack of the web [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: it needs moar normalization [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya WebGL is truly impressive [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: i just hope the browser teams can agree on implementations [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: so its not HTML all over again [12:14] Hiro Protagonist: they wont [12:14] BlueWall Slade: when people can jump off their facebook to do the wild-thing in the back of a '67 Camaro at a virtual drive-in, it's over!!! [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: having to make 3 differnt versions for each web browser [12:14] Hiro Protagonist: but one or two will work well enough [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: seems microsoft wants native html5 [12:14] Penny Lane: We're trying to get away from the web. The web was never designed for this kind of dynamic content, and does it very poorly. [12:14] BlueWall Slade: <-- if they can do it w/o loading a lot of other software [12:14] Hiro Protagonist: Penny: HTML5 will change that paradigm forever [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its going to require a new generation of browsers Penny [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: the current web browsers will not cut the mustard [12:15] BlueWall Slade: I think another level of viewers will develop too [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: there is no good hardware level support [12:15] Richardus Raymaker: shame the mix the ingredients of the browser (read the look and feel) [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I'll be very interested to see the first webgl page that interacts with opensim in any way [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: next gen will have that [12:15] BlueWall Slade: things like interfaces to AutoCAD, etc. [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe sirikata alreayd have something [12:15] BlueWall Slade: they do [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing native though [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: is it? [12:15] BlueWall Slade: it's pretty weird. But you can login a walk around [12:15] Penny Lane: Web-based UIs are extraordinarily immature, 2 decades behind client-side UIs or more. I've yet to see an HTML5-based UI, but I don't see why it should be much of an improvement. [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I dunno - not installed firefox beta to try it yet [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: at one level it's all about accessibility [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt have to necessarily be HTML5 [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it can be Unity or WebGL [12:16] Richardus Raymaker: webbased cant be faster the native gui [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: but going to a web page to hypergrid to completely different places would be pretty odd [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: a browser within a browser [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: even Flash [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: Adobe has announced full hardware accessible 3D soon [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: probably by the end of this year [12:16] Hiro Protagonist: kk y'all _ I'm digesting my own spine, gotta get some kunch ;) [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: Flash player will do Unity3D worlds [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think the future is coming towards us. It's just not yet here [12:17]  Richardus Raymaker: flash, aargh. seems 1 site flash works and other not. and i use 64bit adobe flash [12:17]  BlueWall Slade: heheHiro [12:17]  Hiro Protagonist: I'll sit in and log chat [12:17]  Hiro Protagonist: probably still be goin strong when I'm back heh [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: my hope is there are many options [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: only having 1 option would be failure [12:17]  Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: I tried building a viewer once... blew up in my face [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what LL said [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, a monoculture would be bad [12:18]  Richardus Raymaker: BSOD, General Failure, Kernel oops. [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: already, I need to get back to fistfighting freeswitch [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: er, alright, I mean [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya for true inovation [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: you need one upsmanship [12:18] Penny Lane: You're being sold a bridge. You realize that GL-rendered UI's are (seriously) infinite times slower than 2D ones I hope. A 2D one takes zero CPU to render when nothing is changing, while a 2D UI in GL done the way that Lindens and most other game people do it requires GPU updates on every frame regardless of whether the 2D part of the scenegraphi is changing or not. [12:18] Allen.Firethorn @map.terravirtuavw.com: ok I'll be over on IRC. I'm gonna try to get my grid restarted and see if I can get coals working [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, competiton is good in general [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: Penny Lane its going to require new hardware too [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its all coming [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: your thinking to staticly [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: as if nothings going to change [12:19] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks [12:19] Penny Lane: Cya Justin [12:19] BlueWall Slade: bye jcc [12:19] Sarah Kline: bye Justin [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: once we have 1000 core desktops [12:19] Dutchy Daredevil: *-* Mmm ByE ByE *-* [12:19] Dutchy Daredevil: justin [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: with absurdly fast video cards