Chat log from the meeting on 2015-04-28

[11:00] Zxman.Sinclair @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: wb [11:00]  Allen Kerensky: Zxman Sinclair - that's an approved name right there - I have a TS 2068 myself - but Z80 is Z80 right? lol [11:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: :) [11:01]  Allen Kerensky: (this is to mess with Neb) even if the Z80 is slow as molasses compared to the MOS6502 [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:01]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: oh hey Justin [11:01]  BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:01]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: glad to see you made it :) [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: heloo Justin [11:01] Allen Kerensky: howdy Justin hope RL is starting to relent some for you [11:02] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: wasnt sure if you were still alive :) [11:02]  Zxman.Sinclair @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: zx80 my first computer [11:02]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi everyone [11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi bluewall [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: still alive, just about :) [11:02] BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: still busy but a fraction more time right now [11:02] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: nice [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hee justin [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: any news bluewall ? [11:03] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I guess you saw some of the interaction wiht MOSES devs [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi sarah [11:03] BlueWall Slade: was thjinking that you got married or somethnig like that [11:03] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i have dubbed it "Statspocolypse" :) [11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Married with the pc bluewall :) [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @Bluewall, after today's meeting if you have 30 seconds I would be happy take you over to my sim and demonstrate what I'm talking about [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't look at mailing lists at all - I had to preserve all my attention for other things. [11:04] BlueWall Slade: ok Aine [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: just reading a bit now [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you can watch an entire mesh building move when I touch the door to open it [11:04]  BlueWall Slade: RiRa, news about the non-standard avatars? [11:04] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 waves quietly hello to everybody [11:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: oh so there is a scripted door involved Aine? [11:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bluewall, did you checked the HG offlineIm problem more ? [11:04] BlueWall Slade: Aine, maybe your sims are haunted? [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: aine, i have finaly managed to reproduce the problem and i have an idea why, i think [11:04] Shez Oyen: Hi Sheera :) [11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it also happens when I use a touch-to tp in-region teleporter [11:05]  BlueWall Slade: RiRa no, sorry, not yet. [11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok. [11:05]  BlueWall Slade: I am still trying to get my dev machine setup. [11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you need to be standing close to it and fairly zoomed in on your camera [11:05]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I made a video yesterday testing Moses stats patch to make sure physics reporting is working well, seemed to be ok so far [11:05]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: https://www.youtube.com/embed/IBaGL2XooiQ?rel=0&autoplay=1;fs=0;autohide=0;hd=1;vq=hd1080; [11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that way there's an appreciable movement of the object under your cursor when it activates [11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which I *think* is being interpreted as a grab to move [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I was saying on IRC earlier, for years ive been finding things here moved around [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: at Wright Plaza [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: mostly vendors [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: usually in single axis [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i inspect and see whos it is and go to move it back, only to find it slids perfectly back to the spot it came from [11:07] BlueWall Slade: I have never seen that [11:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ive only seen it about maybe 8-10 times here in the past 3 years or so [11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: for me it was trying to figure out initially why my tp stand in Hedonism moved about 4-5m every time I touched it [11:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its very rare [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i havent seen it happen in a while [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can reproduce it reliably with the doors to the building I made though [11:08] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i have, seems to happen while no one is there, couple of times we had buildings move one meter to the north or south [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: doubt i could make it happen [11:08] BlueWall Slade: now that I've said that, I guess I'll find half my builds migrating into the sea. [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i can tell you though [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: there is a nasty bug with rotating objects [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: when building [11:08] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i just had it happen 15 minutes ago [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: drives me insane [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i rotate a group of objects, and poof [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: they are gone forever [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh yes, that's a fun one [11:09] BlueWall Slade: wow [11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: gone ? or just run away ? [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: gone [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think it's a "Feature" though....to give you extra building practice [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i cant find em [11:09]  Shez Oyen: I've seen that.. unfortunately.. but not for awhile [11:09] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ive had it happen dozens of times [11:09] Shez Oyen: I think that might be a bad network connect? [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sounds like something years ago happend too [11:10] BlueWall Slade: Does anyone have scripts revert while editing them? [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yes [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there is also still a serious issue with XML reading when passing objects between grids [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: BlueWall when that happens [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: stop editing close the floater [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: then open script again [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bluewall, thats very old bug. i pointed at that a few times [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, scripts revert all the time [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it usually goes back to the right edits [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but that sucks nebadon [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: oh ya it sucks [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you have to click on the object, then click back off it, then click back on it to trigger another reload of the contents [11:10] Allen Kerensky: i wonder if that's a viewerside problem since I don't get that in mine [11:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but better than freaking out and making all the edits again [11:11] Allen Kerensky: i don't run one of the popular viewers - but I very very rarely ever have a script revert like that [11:11] Allen Kerensky: and not recently [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have it constantly with FS [11:11]  BlueWall Slade: there is an email on the list that mentions the ScriptStopStrategy might be causing some of those things when it is set to co-op [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I'm hope to look at some of the problems I'm responsible for soon [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: will get a bit more time now, though still not a lot [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I had to completely withdraw over the past few weeks to attend to other non-opensim things [11:12] Allen Kerensky: isn't co-op the default BlueWall? [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the latency thing is just a killer.....had it kill Close Encounter 4 times last Friday with a single latent viewer entering the region [11:12] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: no worries Justin, have to take breaks now and then :) [11:12]  BlueWall Slade: hope things are going well with you. [11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but i never used co-op [11:13]  BlueWall Slade: I changed it to abort to see if I have the issues again. [11:13]  BlueWall Slade: it is the default RiRa [11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think i overrule that always. but i need to check it again [11:13]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: Aine, hopefully, fingers crossed, some of the work the devs for MOSES are doing can address some of that nasty login / teleport stuff [11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: Diva seems interested in their work and seems willing to review and commit their code [11:14]  BlueWall Slade: ahh, the one viewer bringing the sim down [11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: logins are just nasty [11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm ok. the olkd one use coop [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: mass teleport too is just nasty [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and by mass i mean more than 5 at once [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: which is not good [11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: this happens with 1 viewer arriving by itself [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea was there a crowd? [11:15] BlueWall Slade: their connection is bad? [11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if it's bad enough it can even bring down an emptry region [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Diva made offlineIM v2 too right ? wel ill wait on bluewall's result [11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes their connection is horrible [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if someone with a bad connection comes into a crowded sim [11:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: you can see threads go bonkers [11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it should be able to kill a region for everyone [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it happened here couple weeks ago [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if you recall [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: we all got dumped, but region was fine [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: never restarted [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: see huge spew of inventory stuff [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: somsone logging in [11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it generater 60k resends in less than 5 minutes which means no communications going out to anyone else [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea [11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so everyone ack timeouts [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: basically running out of threads [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: so it might be inventory related? [11:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: possible [11:17] BlueWall Slade: heh, we need a dog house to put them in [11:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and why can 1 block the whole link ? [11:17] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i usually see a big spew of slow requests and timeouts to inventory [11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it ignores throttles [11:17] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: when everyone gets dumped out [11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which is the big thing [11:17] Allen Kerensky: if it uses up all the threads or ports waiting... [11:17] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and the few times i have seen it the region recovers almost instantly after everyone gets dumped out [11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, usually it will [11:17] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: everyone logs right back in and its fine [11:17] BlueWall Slade: Aine, the throttles are probably honored - it is probably queuing them up [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: I hope to look at the mantis on this some time - I think there was some more data on it [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: I rememebr some other things acting that way. [11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it freezes everyone else's traffic so that's why I assumed it wasn't honouring them [11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: otherwise everyone else's traffic ought to still be able to go through normally [11:18] BlueWall Slade: it's like the buffers get filled up when something doesn't behave ideally [11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ideally it should just kick/ignore/whatever the person with the bad connection but still maintain eveyrone else [11:19] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:19]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hello Dahlia :) [11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi [11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: instead, everyone's traffic seems to go to the back of the queue and then eveyrone times out [11:19]  Shez Oyen: Dahlia :) [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hello dahlia [11:19] BlueWall Slade: Hey Dahlia [11:20] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi dahlia [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I might experiment some time with ripping out the whole threading system and uniftying so the workload can be better controlled [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: though that will be in a branch [11:21] BlueWall Slade: :) [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment, any part of the system can overload things without regard to any other part, pretty much [11:21]  BlueWall Slade: I often have problems with threading when running in a debugger [11:22]  BlueWall Slade: justin - what do you thin kabout the stats patches? [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: I always use WriteLine debugging :) [11:22] BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know yet - this is the first time I've looked at the ml for about 3 weeks, but Iwill try and get a response soon [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: only just catching up now [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: increasing the MONO_THREADS_PER_CPU setting helped a lot fo rme [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: very dramatic [11:23] BlueWall Slade: what do you sset that to Dahlia? [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i had that problem setting up new server the other day [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i forgot to set that, and man [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: opensim runs like crap [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: with the stock mono threads [11:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: really horribly bad [11:23] Allen Kerensky: start with 2000 [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Bluewall, 512 [11:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I couldnt even teleport a single avatar [11:24] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: just an arbitrary choice tho [11:24] Allen Kerensky: and maybe play with MaxPoolThreads too 15+15 * corethreads or some formula like that [11:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: between 2 regions on that server with no avatars in either sim [11:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: teleport failed 100% of the time [11:24] Allen Kerensky: and MinThreads/maxThreads for XEngine [11:24] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I think default is like 50 or something [11:24] Allen Kerensky: there's a bunch of fun tunables [11:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: was the osgrid plaza07 box [11:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hard drive failed and i had to reload the machine [11:25] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: has cuteulala plaza and dan bannaer and key gruins regions on it [11:25]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: opensimulator.org has been around for a few years too, maybe it could use a new drive [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: or a newer, cheaper, better box [11:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea i should see maybe if i can get them to shut the machine down and clone the drive for us [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: hah, I remember when it all ran on that shared box with the other company ... [11:26] BlueWall Slade: OnRez?? [11:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: electric sheep [11:26] BlueWall Slade: ohhh yeah. [11:27] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: speaking of Nostalgia > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbxWXbHoJ2g [11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Always like that video :) [11:28]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lol ya [11:28]  Allen Kerensky: is that the one with the interactive water and rain? [11:28]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: funny someone just pated that into the HiFidelity.io IRC channel [11:28]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [11:28]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Allen, I think so [11:29]  OtakuMegane Desu: Would love the water physics. Also ators. [11:29]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: are there some asset issues on osgrid? I couldnt get my osgrid avatar to rez so I'm using this one [11:30]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: not since a few weeks ago Dahlia [11:30]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hmmm [11:30]  Sarah Kline: HI Key ^^ [11:30]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hello Key [11:30]  Shez Oyen: my shape wouldn't load either.. had to use another [11:30]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: missing items in database on a region which always worked and hasn't been updated [11:30] Key Gruin: hey Sarah, Neb, Shez, and all :) [11:30]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: Allen would know better than i would, but I am not aware of anything currently going on [11:30]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: there was some asset loss during the last incident [11:30]  Shez Oyen: Hi Key :) [11:30] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so possibly cache expired on the region [11:30] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: do you have oar backups? [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hee key [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and hsez [11:31] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: no it was inventory stuff [11:31] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: oh [11:31]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have an iar [11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 waves to Key [11:31] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ya not sure, its very possible you had stuff cached, hard to say though [11:32] Key Gruin: hey Rich, Aine... [11:32] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: old stuff that was effected, only would have gotten broken had it been edited during the window things were on the fritz [11:32] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I had a few things get fried myself, luckily i had like 10 different copies of stuff scattered about [11:33] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and after the big asset incident i had recreated all my osgrid region oars and iars in my local test grid too [11:33] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        d80230a: 2015-04-27 15:46:09 -0500 (Unix/Mono) [11:34] Key Gruin: the only assets I had trouble with were those given to me in the last month or so, and that's not much lol [11:34] Key Gruin: or anything created in that time [11:34] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea the window was from like may 15th'ish to april 15th'ish [11:34] Key Gruin: ya [11:34]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: things could have gotten screwy [11:35] Shez Oyen: that's what I'm noticing too Key.. some things made in that short time between fixed and really fixed are broken [11:36] Shez Oyen: nothing mission critical [11:37] Key Gruin drops a pin [11:37] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: any other opensimulator issues anyone wanted to discuss? [11:37] Shez Oyen: I was just looking for one [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, typing e-mails and playing catch up [11:37]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it would be good if you guys are running master git code [11:37] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if you could test out the stats patch posted on mantis from Moses [11:38] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7540 [11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: My problem we did last week. it's now just waiting. [11:38] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: this patch doesnt do a whole lot accept remove the stats multipliers [11:38] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: you will see sim and physics fps drop from 55 to 11 basically [11:38] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: few other things, so new instrumentation in place, that diva voiced some concerns about [11:39] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but so far I have not seen it cause to much impact, but probably could use some more testing [11:39] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: to apply the patch if you are not familiar, download the patch file to the root of the opensimulator code after a fresh clone [11:39] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: in the root of the project [11:40] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: then type > git am patchfile.patch [11:40] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: then compile as normal [11:40] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: you will probably get some warnings about whitespace [11:40] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: you can ignore that for the moment, they are working on that, wont cause problems testing it though [11:40] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: you might aslo get prompted about registering an email address and name [11:41] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: just follow the instructions git spits out [11:41] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its just some local settings for git if you are generating patches [11:41] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but it might not let you apply a patch until you do it [11:41]  BlueWall Slade: So Diva found a section that was pretty expensive for processing. [11:42] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hard to say [11:42] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: she seemed leary about it [11:42]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but when i tested i really beat on it hard [11:42] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and didnt notice much change [11:43] BlueWall Slade: it's good that she is looking closely at it. [11:43] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: this must be some stats patch..... [11:43] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its here justin > http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7540 [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: ping [11:44] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: diva was concerned about their use of StopWatch [11:45] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: instead of Environment.TickCount [11:45] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but appearntly tickcount has low precision [11:45] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: stopwatch is supposedly the most accurate timer in .net [11:45] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: like 10-16ms accuracy for tickcount vs 0.8-1.0ms for stopwatch [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know what os they are using? [11:46] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tickcount is bad then [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but the accuracy of even stopwatch is questionable, especially across many hardware platforms [11:46] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: probably dev'ing in Windows and testing in Linux [11:46] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but i am not sure [11:46] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ive been testing in linux of course [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I think I remember them sauing that they use Linux in VirtualBox [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: it's something that could well vary between windows and linux [11:46] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: most of my testing has been on physics so far [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: if it made some noticeable imopact you would probably see it immediately [11:47] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: moses grid is primarly linux backed [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, these are just numbers - the use of stopwatch is probably innocuous [11:47] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: if you use a virtual machine, pretty much any time measurement accuracy goes out the window [11:47] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so I imagine they are moving forward with the expectation of running this code in linux [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: they would want to test on linux asap [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't expect stopwatch is going to be some huge perf impact thuogh tbh [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: one thing I worry about though, is in the past year i have worked very closely with the Moses grid and staff, and to be frank [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: their grid runs like shit compared to any other grid I run on [11:48]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Justin, I dont either [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: adn even on mac osx if you really want to be thorough [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I experience things on their grids I dont experience any where else, I did manage to get things running considerably better there [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but their simiangrid back end has issues I suspect [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: like Inventory is a disaster [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: they are the only users of simian afaik [11:48] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and no doubt has a huge impact on threading [11:49] BlueWall Slade: http://opensim-dev.2196679.n2.nabble.com/Open-Simulator-Server-on-Windows-vs-Linux-td7579660.html [11:49] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and while I appreciate the work they are doing [11:49] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I kind of feel like they are trying to improve things that dont really need improving [11:49] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: while completely ignoring things that doo [11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hehehe [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:50] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: they seem to be blaming physics for things im like 99% certain are xengine problems [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: though part of learning a codebase is making mistakes in focus [11:50] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so I worry about this effort [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think it's a fatal problem [11:50] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: why i am mr skeptical so far [11:50] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I sometimes feel they aren't the only ones [11:50] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea we are certainly guilty of that too [11:50] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but for different reasons [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah aine, bring it on :) [11:51]  BlueWall Slade: :) [11:51] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: we are not making wild claims and then trying to fix things that seem to not be related [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well sorry, but I see the lingering pretty serious issues that I know are extremely complex and time-consuming to tackle but are game-killers [11:51] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I truly do hope this all works out, but I am skeptical [11:51] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ive workd closer with these guys than most people here have [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: I agree actually. [11:51] BlueWall Slade: haha, we don't get paid by the hour either :) [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe it would be worth risking more radical change in a branch [11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: right, MOSES is pouring money into this thing [11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: in the hopes of making it better, and while physics should improve [11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i feel like they are chasing ghosts [11:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: That could be a good thing or a very bad thing in the end. [11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I hope I am wrong [11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: as long scripting is still good for discussion.. [11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but i suspect they are going to pour a lot of time and money into physx [11:52]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so while I'm sure gitting a million balls to drop nicely using physics has its advantages, being able to log into a grid and be somewhat stable when in a region and being able to send something to someone else seems (to me at leasat) a little more important [11:52] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: only to realize bulletsim is not their problem [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: I would think they would realize soon that phys changes don't make huge difference [11:52] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: that its actually xengine [11:52] Shez Oyen: I would not like to be associated with war toys [11:52] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I know I'm a pest about it but.... [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I would say the real problem is the massive uncontrolled use of threads :) [11:53]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I feel like I am talking to a brick wall trying to explain that to them [11:53]  BlueWall Slade: If I had deep pokets and staff, I would be focused on getting OpenSim running inside profileers, etc. [11:53]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bullet can drop a whole lotta balls at once too. It just needs continued integration with OS and debugging. [11:53]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: brick ? thick concrete mabey ? [11:54]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: the threads are indeed a problem but it's probably not practical to change course now [11:54]  BlueWall Slade: Also - We will never get a real time Demoscene engine. [11:54]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: a rewrite might be easier [11:54]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: thats ok Aine, I am sure most of the core devs would consider me quite pestulant as well :P [11:54] BlueWall Slade: OpenSim builds are more art than science. [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I think a rewrite of the way threads are used would be a worthwhile experiment [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: a new script engine sounds a better option yes [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: perhaps [11:54] BlueWall Slade: most of the things you want to do are accomplished with smoke and mirrors. [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: make them all subject to a single control system [11:54] BlueWall Slade: JCC++ [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: It all seems to come back to threading sooner or later. [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: a single threadpool [11:55] BlueWall Slade: you probably know that part really well after the last rouns of OSCC work. [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but mono has an internal threadpool also [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so opensim probably cant even get a OS thread [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, for the oscc work I could only make very tactical changes for isolated problems [11:55] BlueWall Slade: hmmm, if we could move to the 4.5 toolset :) [11:56]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: we still dont use 4.5 ? [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: no - 4.0 [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: waiting on debian [11:56]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea I hope we can perhaps have another OSCC this year, Fleep and I were kind of discussing what that would take [11:56]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I am for it, we will probably cut out Live streaming of the event this year if we do, its just too stressful [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: you know - Xamaris are makin gmoden packegs for all major distributions [11:56]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I'm sure there would be a lot of things we could improve given time and money, but Moses has the time and money and unfortunately we dont [11:56]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: put more focus on having to be in world if you want to be a part of it [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: In truth, I am unlikely to be able to help much for an oscc this year [11:57] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ok well its still early no one needs to decide anything now [11:57] BlueWall Slade: yeah, those things are a huge time commitment. [11:57] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: we were just mulling it over [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:57] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: we definitely want to scale it back a bit [11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i still think Hypergrid get's very important for opensim. so let's make that run good. still soem problems left [11:57] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: things went a lot smoother at FCVW not having to worry about live streams [11:58] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so thats pretty much going to be axed [11:58] BlueWall Slade: it was ustream giving issues? [11:58] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea it was quite a disaster [11:58] BlueWall Slade: << how many end-users? [11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Hypergrid is certainly an important part, especially in the future. :) [11:58] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its just super stressful to coordinate it [11:58]  BlueWall Slade: I see [11:59]  BlueWall Slade: hopefully the sessions are recorded and archived. [11:59]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so we will see, and Justin I dont expect we will need to pour the kind of resources we did in previous years [11:59]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: since things have stabilized quite nicely [11:59]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and with diva having more time now [11:59]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and Moses getting more involved [11:59]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it wont be so much just on your shoulders [11:59]  BlueWall Slade: yeah - don't burn out on us Justin :) [11:59] Danny Miranda: o.o [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha [12:00]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if it does happen this year, i definitely intend on leaning more on Diva [12:00] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and getting her more deeply involved [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ultimately we need fresh people [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea [12:01] BlueWall Slade: I hope things are stable - time wise - so I might help a little with it. [12:01] BlueWall Slade: right now is crazy though. [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I would almost say, wait to next year. that's possible going to be intressting one [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea it wont be for a while [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: before anything happens with OSCC [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: that is months away [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and spend this year to improve opensim [12:01] BlueWall Slade: ++ [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: before we even begin thinking about it really [12:01] Key Gruin: sounds like Moses can be a big benefit for OSCC15 [12:01] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yes, Avacon has a 3 year contract with MOSES for FCVW [12:01] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it's too bad OSCC eats up so much developer time [12:01] BlueWall Slade: that is yet to be seen - but hopefully so. [12:02] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so its in their best interest to see it be successful [12:02] Key Gruin: ahh I didn't know there was a connection [12:02] Key Gruin: that's cool [12:02] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea OSCC was the reason MOSES had avacon take over FCVW [12:02] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: FCVW? [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: running a virtual conference is currently more work than a real one [12:03] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and while it wasnt a huge wild success FCVW, it did go off fairly well, we kind of expected things to not be 100% the first time around [12:03] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ya Federal Consortium of Virtual Worlds [12:03] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: oh [12:03]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: http://consortium.militarymetaverse.org/ [12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Heh, well people have been running RL conferences for ages. Virtual ones are kinda newer so... :P [12:03] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it was basically like a mini OSCC [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: for MOSES grid [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and their partners [12:04] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it seems to come down to several deveoper months per OSCC [12:04] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: thats a very significant amount [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yes, but its all in the interest of making opensimulator better [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: so its time well spent if you ask me [12:04]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it gives us focus [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: really, it was about 5 dev months [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: which is important [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: or maybe 4 [12:04] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so Im told, not sure i agree its worth [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: but ya it would be better to have more involved [12:04] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: a lot of bugs do get fixed [12:05] BlueWall Slade: maybe wars will be fought in virtual spaces one day and spare meatspace the woe. [12:05] BlueWall Slade: :) [12:05]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: OSCC bugs get fixed, others dont [12:05]  OtakuMegane Desu: As long as bugs are getting fixed... [12:05]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: bugs are bugs though [12:05]  Key Gruin: OSCC bugs belong to everyyone [12:05]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its certainly benefited OSgrid [12:05]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and there is unquantifiable "benefit" to the project [12:05]  BlueWall Slade: OSCC has been good for everyone [12:06]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea its not a perfect system, but I think there has been more good than bad come out of it [12:06]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: maybe its been good, but at a very high expense [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: oscc has been totally good [12:06]  BlueWall Slade: does the organization break even with the donations? [12:06]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea being more involved than most, i personally dont feel the cost was too high [12:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea first year we ran a bit short [12:07] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: last year we broke even [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: it lost money in 2013. I think in 2014 it was break even [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:07] BlueWall Slade: good [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: avacon covered the cost in 2013 [12:07] Key Gruin: hign expense of dev time, as opposed to taking longer to improve the code? [12:07] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Key, yes [12:07] BlueWall Slade: I like tech conferences in the VW. I used to hunt them down in SL all the time. [12:08] BlueWall Slade: I lived on Dr. Dobbs Island. [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: oscc was very expensive for me both times. BUt a real load is very good at driving improvements [12:08] BlueWall Slade: :) [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: at least for oscc requirements [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yes, i would agree that for Justin [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: the cost may be a bit too high [12:08]  BlueWall Slade: ++ [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: for me personally while i was a bit stressed [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i was also bummed when it ended [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: lol [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i like the fast pace nature of it [12:08]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and the challenge [12:08]  BlueWall Slade: momentum [12:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: Most things are like that when you're involved in planning [12:09]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hopefully this year we can spread the load a bit more [12:09]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: thats definitley one of my goals [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: on the tech side, the highest part is identifying and fixing issues [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: it has been extremely complex work [12:10] BlueWall Slade: try to make a system to list tasks and get volunteers to fill the need. [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: whcih is why other similar issues are not getting fixed quickly - they are equally expensive without the drivers of money or an urgent need to fix [12:10] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea we have done that in previous years as well [12:10] BlueWall Slade: ++ [12:11] OtakuMegane Desu: If nothing else, it is a way to get load testing that you might otherwise not round up. [12:11] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea unfortunately a project like opensimulator isnt going to come without some costs [12:11] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: financial or otherwise [12:11] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: just reality [12:11] BlueWall Slade: Justin, you did a lot of work with the stats reporting, that is one thing I was concerned about the stats patches - that they wouldn't break any of that. [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: personally, I would love it to be less monolithic [12:12] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ++ [12:12] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea thats a good goal for sure [12:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if anything the stats patches will help make that reporting even more accurate, no? [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: on a qquick glance they look ok. If they cut reported fps to 11 from 55 they may cuase some consternation [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure the value of more accurate stats - they're already pretty accurate [12:12] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: there are lots of good examples why running a gigantic grid like OSgrid isnt quite the Metaverse Utopia one would hope for [12:13] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I'm outta here, bye all :) [12:13]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: see you Dahlia [12:13]  BlueWall Slade: bye Dahlia [12:13]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bye [12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye dahlia [12:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that's where hypergrid jumps in.. [12:14]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: anyway something to think about if and when we do start discussing and planning OSCC you will all likely be some of the first to hear about it :) [12:14] BlueWall Slade: I wish some viewer devs would want to organize under Overte and quit straddling the fence - go all out OpenSim viewer dev. [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: are there that many viewer devs left? [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: cats in a bag as well.... [12:15] BlueWall Slade: I don't know. [12:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea hopefully once diva finally gets on her sabatical we are start pumping up OnLook [12:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if we can drum up some more Investment and Sales at Encitra [12:15] BlueWall Slade: I have to use multiple ones because it seems none work 100%. [12:15] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: we are definitely going to be pushing some money into opensim viewer development [12:15] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I'm looking forward to checking that out. [12:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not tried onlook [12:16] Key Gruin: me niether [12:16] Key Gruin: neither [12:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I can tell you though rasing investment capital is probably one of the most stressful things you can do in life [12:16] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [12:16] BlueWall Slade: haha [12:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: more stressfull then running event ? :) [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear it takes a huge amount of time too [12:16]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yes [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: people dont easily give up their money even when you have something awesome [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: smart people dont anyway [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [12:17]  BlueWall Slade: make a video and slap it on Kickstarter :) [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: THat's what everyone says though :) [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: and investors want a 10x return [12:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup, i where puzlzing how all people are doing it so easy with kickstarter :O [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lies Richardus [12:17]  BlueWall Slade: RiRa - most people don't. [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: people just lie [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [12:17]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: thats how [12:18]  BlueWall Slade: hehe, just a small % [12:18]  OtakuMegane Desu: You have to have some solid content to show for something like a Kickstarter to work out. [12:18]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: more than not though most kickstarter investments are poor ones [12:18]  BlueWall Slade: yeah, probably 98% complete product. [12:18]  OtakuMegane Desu: Or at least a good, clear plan for things [12:18] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: most people are looking at those kind of investments as pre-order [12:19] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and nothing more [12:19] BlueWall Slade: If you are developing somethnig, if you go for funding, then you don't own it anymore. [12:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol, if the viewer is 98% donme you dont need kickstarter anymore [12:19] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: not a sound financial investment [12:19] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 waves good bye to everyone [12:19] BlueWall Slade: I really think that Philip Rosedale wanted to create a 3d Internet. [12:19] BlueWall Slade: but the investers didn't see giving up on a walled garden. [12:20] BlueWall Slade: bye Sheera [12:20] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea I suspect he is having trouble getting investors as well [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: highfidelity recently got an investment round [12:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh, MS gave 11 milj [12:20] BlueWall Slade: but, It would be nearly impossible to lift something like SL off the ground on your own [12:21] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea, but you pretty much nailed it BlueWall, how do you raise the capital without loosing control [12:21] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: thats the hardest part [12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: In a way that's kind of the big achilles heel to SL. It's tied up in for-profit and a walled garden. [12:21] BlueWall Slade: you don't [12:21]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: maintaining that controlling interest with other peoples money [12:21] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: hehe [12:21] BlueWall Slade: you work for someone no matter what [12:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: im afraid virtual start to look to much like reallife. and then it's not funny anymore.. thats why opensim still gets better [12:21] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea [12:22] BlueWall Slade: heh, we'll end up with a HiFi client stack :S [12:22] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: I have to say after all my HiFI testing [12:22] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: im not very impressed so far [12:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: thats possible not bad bluewall. but.. [12:22] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: they have a long road ahead I think [12:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: im a bit lost there [12:22] BlueWall Slade: but, we can wiggle our eyebrows when we talk [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hifi is tryhign to do somethign radically new I think [12:22] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its not very good at this stage, i wouldnt even bother trying it [12:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: especially some things that already gave problems in opensim is right now a nightmare there [12:22] BlueWall Slade: IO have not looked at it. [12:22] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: try again in about 6 months [12:22] BlueWall Slade: *I [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: which I thinhk is necessary actually to get somewhere new [12:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: honestly it doesnt feel radiclly new [12:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it feels like BlueMars v2.0 to me [12:23]  Shez Oyen: I gave it 2 chances.. I prob won't go back [12:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: its like a cross between BlueMars and Cloudparty [12:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: At the end it's possible the same. right now it's pulling your hairs [12:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Wow, I haven't thought about Blue Mars in ages [12:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: it literally feels like they are just replicating those systems [12:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i dont know both nebadon [12:23] BlueWall Slade: I think we have a good platform, but the entry for new users is pretty costly on the learning curve side. [12:23] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: Cloud Party seems way more advanced in some ways [12:24] BlueWall Slade: most people are just too lazy to put in the effort [12:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: well at this point, if your not developing the code going back into their git [12:24] BlueWall Slade: is that still around? [12:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: dont even bother trying to use it [12:24]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: no Yahoo swalled up Cloud Party [12:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: never to be seen again [12:24] BlueWall Slade: ohh [12:24] BlueWall Slade: Death Star [12:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: learning curve. SL where never so hard to learn compared with hifi. lol brb afk (dont chat to much meanwehile) [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: it was a talent acquisition [12:24] Shez Oyen: Black Hole [12:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Or Unicron sounds more accurate. [12:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ya for all that cool WebGL stuff Yahoo is doing [12:24] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lolz [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: cloud party probably had no viable business plan and Yahoo wanted talent [12:25] Key Gruin: Cloud Party *was* cool [12:25] BlueWall Slade: haha, they got Yahoo-dooed [12:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i just hope offlineIM v2 HG get fixed before next release [12:26] BlueWall Slade: RiRa, when I get things settled here I will try to llok at it. [12:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: if you see diva around you should probably let her know about it [12:26]  BlueWall Slade: I had to build a new dev box. [12:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: since it seems to be HG only issue [12:26] BlueWall Slade: there are several HG issues [12:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: thats an understatement [12:26] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: lol [12:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i never see diva. brb food few minutes [12:27] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: well on IRC Richardus [12:27] BlueWall Slade: just probably needs to be run under a microscope [12:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what are the other problems ? [12:27] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: only place you will likely see her [12:27] BlueWall Slade: friends [12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: HG is super complex because of it's distributed pper to peer nature [12:27] OtakuMegane Desu: IRC is where the cool kids hang out [12:27] BlueWall Slade: that is really flakey [12:27] BlueWall Slade: right [12:27] BlueWall Slade: that is the future though. [12:27] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: there is another problem with HG teleporting [12:28] Justin Clark-Casey: and interactions with the viewer as well. I'm almost surprised some parts of it work at all. Getting it to work well in its current form may be near impossible [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: that really drives me nuts [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: setup 2 identical oars on different grids, with lots of mesh objects [12:28] BlueWall Slade: what TP issues? [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: clear cache and log into one [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: then HG teleport to other identical region [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: and watch your viewer cache get clobbered [12:28] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: richardus, i tested offline Im v2 from outside HG, and in all cases the IMs get delivered when i log in [12:28]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: the land of a millionn yellow pyramids [12:28] BlueWall Slade: ohhh [12:28] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: super annoying [12:28] BlueWall Slade: I rememebr OSCC and that issue [12:29] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's just being helpful by telling you to build with prims instead [12:29] BlueWall Slade: was only under Singularity though. [12:29] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ah could be [12:29]  BlueWall Slade: Firestorm was ok [12:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect that is a viewer side thing that opensim mcan't fix [12:29] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: i mostly only use Singularity and Replex [12:29] BlueWall Slade: but, firestorm voice didn't work. [12:29] BlueWall Slade: right now I have no voice on any viewer. [12:30] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: yea I just cant be efficient builder in Firesorm [12:30] OtakuMegane Desu: Firestorm seems a mess for Opensim evrery time I try it any more. [12:30] BlueWall Slade: It used to work really good for me in most cases. [12:30] BlueWall Slade: but, seems that they have focused on SL web thing. [12:30] BlueWall Slade: :/ [12:30] BlueWall Slade: no 64 bit viewer [12:31] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: maybe Kokua [12:31] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: NickyP is usually quite helpful [12:31] BlueWall Slade: something was up with that one too. [12:31] BlueWall Slade: yes ++ [12:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: back [12:31] BlueWall Slade: when I get this dev box setup, I may jump to OpenSuSE 13.2 on my workstation [12:32] BlueWall Slade: that might fix some things [12:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: friends, yes thats good one to and buggy [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, time for me to get something to eat [12:32] BlueWall Slade: see ya justin [12:32] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: ok yea I need to go ride my bike [12:32] Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: excersize time [12:32] BlueWall Slade: good to see you today, take care. [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: good to talk with you folks again. Hope to be around a bit more now though still little time avialable [12:32] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bye guys :) [12:32]  BlueWall Slade: ++ I need to walk around a bit [12:32]  Nebadon.Izumi @hg.osgrid.org: kk ya welcome back Justin! good to see you [12:33]  BlueWall Slade: Aine - you want to show me that ghost you have? [12:33]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:33]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes please [12:33]  BlueWall Slade: 0/ [12:33]  Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..