Chat log from the meeting on 2020-03-10

[11:00] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: hi selby

[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:00] Kayaker Magic: The meeting can start! Andrew is here!

[11:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Kayaker

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Everybody asleep at the keyboard?

[11:05] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: no no, meditating

[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Just no problems

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I mentioned the meeting in IRC to see if Ubit will join us.

[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I'm hoping Ubit will join us soon, then the real meeting can start.

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: He probably did not realize the US switched to summertime this weekend

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, right. Yes, the time change does mess up things for a couple of weeks.

[11:07] Kayaker Magic: OMG I *HATE* Daylight Wastings Time with a passion.

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I forgot about the time change or I would have pointed that out at the last meeting.

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is easy to forget

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: comes as a surprise every time

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Not only that, but my stupid government changed the date of the switch in 2007, so people get even more confused.

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I would prefer to stay on clocks ahead an hour as the sun sets later.

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, same thing happened here a few years ago.

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here up in the north that does not work so well

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the sun would not be up till after 9:30 or even later in the morning

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I own clocks programmed before 2007 that switch on a different date, and if I don't remember that and switch them manually, they switch a second time later.

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the winter that is

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: The clocks are turned back for less time so I don't change some of my clocks. I just know they are an hour ahead.

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Licu. Always nice to see some new people attending these meetings.

[11:10] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: thank you

[11:11] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: i came here sometimes in the past

[11:11] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: but now that i have some difficulties to find a stable dev for Craft I have more interest in the meeting

[11:12] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: and also for the ministerial grid edMondo

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: That sounds like a good place to start todays meeting.

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: What do you mean by a "stable dev"? Are you referring to a person or the latest version of Open Simulator code?

[11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The big news in US Covid-19 Universities shifting to on line classes. Should be thinking about virtual worlds Management viewpoint

You need not even think about epidemics.

You don't have any buildings to sanitize.

You don't have any buildings to clean and secure.

Nobody gets raped on a virtual campus.

Nobody needs to park on a virtual campus.

[11:13] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: well, the latest version I am testing is one of 24 february

[11:14] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: in the regions in which i am testing it users are experiencing some issues, I think bad communications between server and viewer

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: That sounds a bit old.

[11:15] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: things like prims modified in size and in a few seconds back to the previous size

[11:15] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: i would like to understand better this problem

[11:16] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: what is old, the issue or the dev?

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: It does sound a bit like some update messages aren't getting handled properly between OS and the viewer.

[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the issue was observed in some dev versions

[11:17] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: can it be something related to udp?

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes

[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: The version of OS you are using. The most recent change to the OS code was made today. There have been many changes since February.

[11:17] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: yes, I am going to compile it

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had to revert the virvox changes as the server could not log into their server any more

[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: UDP can be part of the issue. UDP packets aren't guaranteed to get through in the order sent.

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: possibly a linux only issue, and Ubit added another change I have not tested yet after I discussed it with him

[11:19] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: linux issue? also related to threading?

[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no - certificate handling

[11:19] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: ah

[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, mantis 8331 talks about issues relating to Vivox.

[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, after It did not work, and then it also did not work for Ubit on Linux

[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he had only tested on Windoze

[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'm going to make a new test tomorrow

[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Licu, are you running OpenSim on Linux or WindCows?

[11:21] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: Linux

[11:21] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: debian in Craft and RedHat in edMondo

[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Which version of mono are you using, Licu?

[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... there are viewer issues galore that needs to be sorted right now

[11:22] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: with this dev it is 6.8 I think, moment checking

[11:23] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: Mono JIT compiler version 6.8.0.96 (tarball Wed Jan 15 10:20:48 UTC 2020)

[11:23] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: viewer issues are about cache, is there something more?

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: heh

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what sort of viewer issues have you discovered?

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In the last TPV meeting one of the devs were shouting at Oz for 20 minutes over eep

[11:24] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: :)

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: two viewer devs have completely screwed up the renderer, so they have to start over again

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: What's eep?

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus there are major issues with the new login requirments when they go Premium Plus

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is the repleacement of Windlight

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, one of the newer features in SL.

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which happens to be completely incpmpatible with Lightshare

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so to support EEP, lightshare must be removed from opensim

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think Ubit has tried, but it just became a mess

[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so messy both viewer and server side

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: EEP is using some of the same messages and data packets as Lightshare but with some differences that are causing problems?

[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the issue is if opensim should support eep at all, but that would lead to viewer splits for seprate opensim versions

[11:28] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: not a good thing

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have had their rendering folks working on it for 1 1/2 years

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus all kinds of settings can now be sold on the marketplace

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so very complicated protection

[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can't go grab a windlight scene any more unless you have full access to textures and all used in the scene

[11:30] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: for 'you' you mean the viewer?

[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It all sounds like a big mess that may take a while to sort out.

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you as a traveler. photographers used to travel to interesting sims, save the settings and work on them for refinement

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not possible any more

[11:31] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: so workaround is not using these features, i suppose

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In Sl it not possible to not use them

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will force a viewer update

[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus the Premium Plus will also render most old viewers uselss

[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: refusing to log in

[11:34] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: so, about vivox, can we use the devs of today?

[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is alos very difficult to get a handle on what changes they are doing after the git conversion. They used to have features in separae repositories during development. Now they just push branches with some obscure number referring to JIRAAs we don't have access to

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can try and see if it works for you

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: The mantis would indicate yes, but future viewers may have problems with Vivox.

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you can connect to their backend, the viewers hsould be OK for now

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: biggest concern is that SLVoice is a black-box we don't have the source to

[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a new voice system being developed for use with OS which was mentioned at the OSCC.

[11:38] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: We cab hope for EchoVoice:  https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/search?q=echovoice

[11:38] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: This presentation from Infinite Metaverse Alliance® (IMA) and Thales Group discusses progress towards improving open source code used in a self-hosted secure voice solution called EchoVoice. This is an alternative to ViVox which is commonly used for voice communication between avatars in OpenSimulator regions. The discussion is focused on the development work done to provide a modernized solution for HyperGrid-enabled regions as well as planned enhancements not currently available.

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: common for all of them are they are either not in active development, or not available for all operating systems for clients or have commercial licenses

[11:38] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: considering that often vivox doesnt work well at all and that in our education regions they often use other systems to communicate (skype and others), perhaps it is time of thinking of something else

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is a very mixed bag for voice

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Selby, what was presented is not available for more than maybe one operating system

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: client side

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so useless

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: One operating system for now.

[11:41] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Not available at all yet

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for now :-)

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's say it as it is, there is no development activity on the other platforms

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: We may have a long wait for it. No way to know when it may be generally available.

[11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: True, Gavin -- unless somebody wants to move the project in that ditection

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: If the system is still in heavy development it makes sense to keep it for one operating system until the system and its code base stabilize.

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TBH, you need to have a pretty specialiced set of skill to succeed

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not in heavy development

[11:43] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: That is the case,Andrew

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus developing for macOS vs Windows are two different planets

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: macOS and Linux a bit closer

[11:46] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The basic Scenegate is not developed for Mac. but someone is working on that. Windows and Linux versions are available.

[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who is the someone?

[11:47] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't know, Gavin -- I don't follow it that closely.

[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only few commits were a hack by Cinder to rename the viewer in the nib file

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem with macOS development is that from Feb 3, Apple requires everything to be signed on new hardware

[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and to achieve that you have to use their frameworks

[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which only work with Swift or Objective-C

[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the older libs still used by the viewer also work with C++, but that is getting increasigly difficult

[11:50] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes -- I suppose working on means looking at the problem

[11:50] Kayaker Magic: Selby, didn't HiFi opensource their sound system? Have your devs looked into that?

[11:51] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will ask them Kayaker

[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it should be on their site if it is still upI suppose

[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: up*

[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Talking about HIFI, LL have said Sansar is for sale

[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they cannot support it any more

[11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: But the objective in EchoVoice is Military security -- Na man in the middle

[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: NSA is always in the middle ;-)

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or other such agencies around the world

[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I know about NSA and appreciate it when I do comedy -- I know that at least somebody is listening.

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: My PDA just beeped to remind be of todays meeting. Its clock didn't update. It usually does, IIRC.

[11:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Bernd

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Bernd

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am afraid you are one hour late

[11:57] Kayaker Magic: One hour late Bernd, welcome to Daylight Wastings Time.

[11:57] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Good evening friends

[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bernd.

[11:58] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Oh no... different time mgic

[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: The hour is just about up. Any last minute items for today?

[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it is that time of year again, Bernd.

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: That will wrap up todays meeting. Thank you all for coming. See you again same time next week, or an hour earlier than usual for those in the Europe or places in the world where the clocks have not moved ahead an hour.

[12:01] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: he he, yes

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll stick around for a while to see if others turn up for the meeting.

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Thank you too Andrew

[12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all!

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby

[12:02] Licu.Rau @craft-world.org:8002: bye selby