Chat log from the meeting on 2011-07-05

[17:46] [2011/07/03 19:43]  Vivian Klees: also known as hot dogs [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:43]  Jack Benimble: I'm doing burgers [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:43]  Jack Benimble: potato salad and baked beans [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:43]  Vivian Klees: no apple pie? [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:44]  dan banner: mmm potato salad sounds good [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:44]  Jack Benimble whispers: you bringing some? [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:44]  Vivian Klees: yes it does [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:44]  Vivian Klees: cole slaw [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  Doctor Rorrim: still a cloud ????? [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  Vivian Klees: yeppers [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  Jack Benimble: hate to say it, but the Wal Mart here does a great potato salad [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  Doctor Rorrim: heck fire [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  dan banner: yeah i like their potato salad [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:45]  dan banner: and their macaroni salad is good too [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:47]  Vivian Klees: sometimes I wish other stores deli sections were better [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:47]  dan banner: or as cheap [17:46] [2011/07/03 19:47]  Vivian Klees: yes [17:49] Dutchy Daredevil: hi Vivian [17:49] Vivian Klees: hi Dutchy [17:49] Dutchy Daredevil: hi Neb [17:49] Nebadon Izumi: hello [17:49] Dutchy Daredevil: hi Richardus [17:50] Vivian Klees: Hi RiRa, Nebadon [17:50] Richardus Raymaker: hi d [17:50]  Richardus Raymaker: hi v [17:54]  Sarah Kline is Online [17:55] dan banner: hi everyone [17:55] Nebadon Izumi: hello [17:55] Key Gruin: hi all [17:55] Richardus Raymaker: hello neb [17:55] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Dan [17:55] Vivian Klees: Hi Key [17:56] Dutchy Daredevil: hi Key [17:56] Key Gruin: really laggy for me, I might just stay down here hehe [17:56] Richardus Raymaker: hi key [17:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya might need to turn down draw distance here a bit [17:59] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Taint [17:59] Nebadon Izumi: hows everyone doing? [17:59] Mugetsu Storm: lagging [17:59] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Blue [17:59] Mugetsu Storm: hey everyone [17:59] BlueWall Slade: Hello [17:59] dan banner: hello [17:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi blue [17:59] Richardus Raymaker: hello snow [17:59] BlueWall Slade: Hi [17:59]  Dutchy Daredevil: just free for a few hours to bee in here [18:01] Master Dubrovna: Greetings everyone [18:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello Master [18:02] Vivian Klees: hello [18:02] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Master [18:02] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [18:02] Nalates Urriah: Hello [18:02] BlueWall Slade: Hi [18:02]  dan banner: hey master [18:02] Mugetsu Storm: hello [18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [18:02] BlueWall Slade: Hi justin [18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi master [18:02] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Justin [18:02] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi folks [18:02] Nebadon Izumi: so OSG4B is coming up, just a heads up, if you want to contribute to the celebrations you can post details on ? the forums [18:02] dan banner: hey justin [18:03] Nebadon Izumi: http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=27&sid=e1d679b12713b06b2d25942f3d198292 [18:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [18:03] Master Dubrovna: Hi Justin [18:04] Justin Clark-Casey: So how's it going? [18:04] Nebadon Izumi: so hows OpenSim running for everyone lately? [18:04] Nebadon Izumi: things are good Justin [18:04] Nebadon Izumi: i am still working on setting up danger grid again [18:04] Richardus Raymaker: besides the clouds i think it runs ""normal"" [18:04] dan banner: how many places are left for exhibits at osg4b now nebadon? [18:04] Nebadon Izumi: taking a little longer to rsync stuff than i expected [18:05] Nebadon Izumi: id have to check dan banner [18:05] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: mostly good - couple of unexplained pauses recently after teleporting sometimes [18:05] Sarah Kline is Offline [18:05] Nalates Urriah: I having lots of tp problems. Some friends in the Devokan area are having problems. [18:05] Nebadon Izumi: that might be Inventory SinSeer [18:06] dan banner: yeah i havent been having too much trouble either [18:06] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: hmmmm could be - or maybe throttling settings which i'm trying to look up now heh [18:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya things have been working pretty well for me [18:06]  BlueWall Slade: I noticed pauses when jumping across HG [18:06]  Vivian Klees: strange hg messages tp'ing to grid sims [18:06] Nebadon Izumi: every so often after a teleport my viewer just poofs [18:06] Nebadon Izumi: I think its Imprudence 1.4 beta 1 [18:06] dan banner: using the latest build made a big difference [18:06] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah, hg is what is giving me the pauses too - but weirdly; i get it in lbsa but not ? wright [18:06] Richardus Raymaker: it only seems that when people send TP the fail sometimes.. map TP works then fine [18:06] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa is always a lot busier than any other region on the grid [18:06] Joe Radik has been looking at the type of tables created by default. [18:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: actually could be releated to that - i just startd using impruidence beta1 kast week ? too [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: that region gets pounded constantly [18:07] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon. that problem with TP poof i hear more. told you it happens for me when my avatra is invisible [18:07] Sarah Kline: i crash with that too..went back to 1.3 [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya its beta [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: but it sooooo smooth otherwise lol [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: for best performance its probably not the best choice [18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, could be a viewer issue [18:07] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: maybe i'd just learn to live with the pauses [18:07] Vivian Klees: what's not mentioned alot of sims are not updated [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: i think next version will probably improve a bit [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: one thing that changed in Imprudnce 1.4 beta 1 [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: is inventory [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: inventory automatically loads now [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: hence the pauses when you teleport [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: or open inventory for 1st time [18:08] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oh that could be entirely it then [18:08] dan banner: yeah makes sense [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: before it would not load inventory until you triggered a search or something [18:08] Andrew Hellershanks: when did Imprudence beta 1 come out? [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: but caching works better in 1.4 beta 1 [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: week or two ago Andrew [18:09] Vivian Klees: 6-22 [18:09] Sarah Kline is Offline [18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, thanks. I should update my copy. I have 1.4.0 [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am using it [18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: and mostly it works well [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: teleporting can be wierd a bit [18:09] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: other than that though my opensim has been working awesome - only problems is items ? from other hypergrids - but that only happens on sims who have't updated recently, so what can you do [18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I like the building features of it. [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: it seems to poof a lot on me [18:09]  Richardus Raymaker: i use it to [18:09]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that prim align feature is fricking handy [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: but for me teleporting has never been great [18:09] Richardus Raymaker: no seems very stable here [18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: SinSeer, indeed! [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: its always hit or miss [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence has the best build tools [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to use anything else when im building [18:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I mostly use it when I'm building so TP issues aren't a big deal. [18:10] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: like i am willing to suffer the pauses if it's imprudence cause yeah all in all, ? that's a great viewer [18:10] Nalates Urriah: After my sim runs for a week or so a reset shows lots of errors. A restart works just fine. [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of errors? [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: a week is a long time [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: if you get a couple days of solid use thats impressive [18:11] Nalates Urriah: I would have to dig through the log. Take me a couple of minutes. [18:11] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I don't remember there being donuts here for these meetings [18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: donuts, where? [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i just added that back Andrew [18:11] Richardus Raymaker: ony not figured out why some regions trigger sound play in imprudence and otehrs it fail. after its ? trigger it seems to keep running until relog [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i made that agest ago [18:11] Joe Radik: I have a question or two about what types of tables to use in MySQL. [18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: ooh [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i was cleaning my inventory and found the donut bar [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: it was from years ago [18:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ok. Cool. And two drink machines. [18:12] Richardus Raymaker: mine are running 7 days now [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: now we just need a nice espresso maker [18:12] BlueWall Slade: heh, from the bit test region - the doughnut shop [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya actually that was originally from Wright Plaza [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: in the 1st year [18:12] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i noticed i can easily load 20 npcs and make them sing spooky songs from their cloud ? mouths, that is awesome ,thanks justin [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: eventually it got moved to Zaius Plaza [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: and then it got lost for a while in my invnetory [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: after a major cleaning session one day i found it [18:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, what choices are you looking at for the tables? [18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: I plan to do more work, but I only really have an opportunity at the very end of the week [18:13] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: hey thats no problem - i'm using the excuse to very slowly learn my way around the ? code too ;) but singing clouds are awesome to start with [18:13] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: heck people expect clouds anyways [18:13]  Joe Radik: I thought I saw some conversation that Innodb tables are slower than Myisam [18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortunatly clouds will be a problem, maybe forever [18:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the next thing will be to fix appearance. But I want to write tests too to simplify the code and ? stop things breaking again [18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its gonna be hard to track fixing all those bugs down [18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: there is one way i know for sure that causes clouds [18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: failed teleporting seems to be the #1 cause [18:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: regarding clouds, I thikn the next thing to do is write some server code that can do more appearance ? checking [18:14]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: well i actually noticed for regular users i'm actually getting less cloudy people - ? just the npcs are like that, but thats expected [18:14] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt we can greatly improve cloud issue [18:14] dan banner: yeah at the least you lose attachments [18:14] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll probably always have clouds to some degree [18:14] Joe Radik: If I don't disable Innodb, I get a mix of table types created [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: the grid is just to chaotic and spread apart [18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: joe: which version of opensim are you using? [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: alot of regions are on very bad connections [18:15] Joe Radik: Fairly close to git master [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: we can only fix so much, be impossible to fix the internet as a whole [18:15] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: quick question - in the code erm somewhere, i could look it up; i made a note... but ? does anyone know if the setdefaultappearance code (which is currently commented out) works at all? [18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the underlying problem is the second life protocol isn't designed to deal with that level of chaos [18:15] Sarah Kline: I can log in to LBSA and be a cloud...its easy! [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: its not like SL where the entire grid is professionly hosted and living in a fancy data center [18:15] Richardus Raymaker: clouds maby not so bad in some degree. as long people can get out of it [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: if it's commented out, probably not. The default appearance still currently needs a client to ? actual bake and send back textures [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: that does seem improved recently [18:16] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah thats what i figured [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: not so many people permaclouded [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: it still happens but most people it happens to are not aware they can clear their own appearance on the ? website [18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: joe: some tables work better as myisam. Others are reported to be better as innodb [18:16] Richardus Raymaker: but for some reason some shapes / outfits seems to load not/very bad and others work easy. [18:16] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that'd be some sweet code to get into the console - the purge appearance one ;) [18:16]  Sarah Kline: why do we look ok to ourselves but not to others [18:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: due to different use characteristics. Region tables are now myisam which appears to be a lot quicker in ? some circumstances [18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i think for smaller tables like regions myisam is much faster [18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: on the back end with extremely large tables, innodb has some advantages [18:17]  Joe Radik: I found that all tables starting with "estate" get created as innodb. [18:17]  Joe Radik: Everything else as Myisam. [18:18]  Joe Radik: I should just let Opensim decide? [18:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: possibly they should be myisam as well. But since they're not acessed a lot it doesn't make much ? difference what storage engine they use [18:18]  BlueWall Slade: we don't user foreign keys or anything [18:18] Justin Clark-Casey: joe: that would be my recommendation [18:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think the defaults opensim provide currently are probably best [18:19] Nebadon Izumi: the tables that are innodb are virtually empty most of the time [18:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Until you have a large asset table, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot which engine is used. [18:19] Nebadon Izumi: unless your running 100's of regions in 1 simulator [18:19] Nebadon Izumi: which is just a bad idea [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya probably not Andrew [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: though on the simulator side [18:20] Andrew Hellershanks: sure, 100's of empty regions in 1 sim otherwise that is just asking for big trouble [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: using Innodb seems to be a bad idea for the prims tables [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: loading an oar can literally take 1000 times longer [18:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Really? Hm... [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: not quite sure why exactly [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: but yes [18:20] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza takes about 9 hours to load on inndob [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: takes like 15 minutes with myisam [18:21] BlueWall Slade: lol, that's nuts [18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect innodb's transactional overheads make it take a lot longer [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:21]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: there is a good chance i would gnaw my own leg off trying to escape a 9 hour bootup [18:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I'm using innodb on the prims tables [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: anytime datastore occurs [18:21] dan banner: ow [18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: its extremely slow with inndob [18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the engine was only switched fairly recently [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: if your on master git it should have changed it to myisam for you [18:22] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm still on .7.0.2 and haven't moved to 0.7.1-dev yet [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: well you can alter the table yourself [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: or just wait [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: opensim really doesnt care what the table is [18:22]  Andrew Hellershanks nods [18:22] Richardus Raymaker: you mean 0.7.2dev? [18:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Has 0.7.2 been released? [18:23] dan banner: no [18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: oddly enough though the reverse is opposite on the OSgrid Back end Robust databases [18:23] Nebadon Izumi: we were running MyISAM [18:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. so I do mean 0.7.1 release with post release fixes [18:23] Nebadon Izumi: and i couldnt run a query without crashing the grid [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: recently we switched everything to innodb and now i can do pretty heavy query without any impact to the grid [18:24] Dahlia Trimble is Online [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: but those tables have literally millions of rows [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: 12+ million rows on some [18:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I only have that situation with my asset table [18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, innodb does row locking while myisam only does table locking [18:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Millions of rows that is. [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: our asset db has 28 million rows [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: heh [18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: that makes a big difference for grid services, so they are better off with innodb [18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: but region tables seem better as myisam [18:25] Nebadon Izumi: i ran some recent stats on osgrid assets [18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: insertion overheads are certainly much lower [18:25] Nebadon Izumi: we have 28 million or so assets in the database [18:25] Nebadon Izumi: and like 15 million actual unique assets on the hard drive [18:25] Richardus Raymaker: i think network delay is more problem then database delay [18:25] Nebadon Izumi: we are getting like 50% compression with dupe checking [18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: sras still working well? [18:26] Andrew Hellershanks: It is amazing to see how many dupe assets you can have in a busy grid [18:26] BlueWall Slade: we could probably make better use of things like stored procedures and binding variables to fields - making ? multiple insertions per call [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya seems to be working good Justin [18:26] dan banner: lots of dupes im sure [18:26] Dahlia Trimble: hi [18:26]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [18:26] BlueWall Slade: Hello Dahlia [18:26] dan banner: hi [18:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think there is huge scope for efficiencies. Though that starts to get messy as db adaptors start ? to vary significantly [18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: hello dahlia [18:26] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [18:26] Outback Abbot: Hello everyone :) [18:26]  Sarah Kline: hi dahlia [18:27]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Dahliaa [18:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Outback [18:27]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Out [18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello outback [18:27]  Richardus Raymaker: oh oar's dont copy parcel owners right ? [18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: lot more people here today than last week! [18:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: Using stored procedures, etc. can get awkward when you have to deal with different database systems. [18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: they do [18:27]  Joe Radik had an unplanned day off work. [18:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: thought the owner has to be a valid uuid on the target grid [18:28]  Richardus Raymaker: i copied a region inside osgrid to a new uuid and it lost parcel owner [18:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: to a new region, you mean? [18:29]  Richardus Raymaker: yes [18:29]  Richardus Raymaker: a test region [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: it probably only survives if you keep it in the same grid [18:29] Richardus Raymaker: its in osgrid [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: being that users UUID wont exit on another grid [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah [18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it should not loose ownership [18:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that may just be a bug [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think ive seen that occur [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:30]  Richardus Raymaker: i think its a bug to' [18:32] Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues? [18:32] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: hmmmmmmmmmm [18:32] BlueWall Slade: the Overte CLA - when will that be ready? [18:32] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: actually it's been suprisingly stable and good to me [18:33]  Douglas Maxwell: is this the right venue to ask a configuration question? [18:33] Andrew Hellershanks: The only OS issue I have is that I haven't had time to work on anything related to OS for a while. [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:30]  Richardus Raymaker: i think its a bug to' [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues? [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: hmmmmmmmmmm [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:32]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.2 Dev          759e855: 2011-07-01 21:47:30 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:32]  BlueWall Slade: the Overte CLA - when will that be ready? [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: actually it's been suprisingly stable and good to me [18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:33]  Douglas Maxwell: is this the right venue to ask a configuration question? [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: The only OS issue I have is that I haven't had time to work on anything related to ? OS for a while. [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  dan banner is Online [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry nebadon [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: hey no worries [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it was wierd [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it kept restarting [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: like someone kept crashing it out [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that was my fault [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: I was trying to capture the initial crash text [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ah did you get it? [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:38]  Nebadon Izumi: i can get it if you want [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: please [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: and I hit the wrong shortcut on my console, which sent ctrl-c instead [18:41] [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: not yet [18:41] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [18:41] dan banner is Online [18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: same crash [18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: did you capture it? [18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: same crash [18:43] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wat doe jij hier ruben ? [18:43] Ruben Haan: hoi [18:43] Richardus Raymaker: hoi. [18:43] Justin Clark-Casey: hi ruben [18:43] Justin Clark-Casey: do you have a pastebin? [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/4Tmw2XA5 [18:43] Ruben Haan: ff boven kijken [18:43] Richardus Raymaker: heb je IM gehad ruben ? [18:44] Ruben Haan: nee [18:44] Justin Clark-Casey: that's kind of bad because it just appears to be within mono [18:44] dan banner: did i rez? [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: i see you dan [18:44] dan banner: k [18:44]  Richardus Raymaker: your fine dan [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: so ya that sucked [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: heh [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: twice in a row it happend too [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno [18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: yes - not good [18:46] Dutchy Daredevil: back i hope ?? [18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going to take a brief look at the relevant piece of mono src once I have it, though I'm not sure it ? will reveal much [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok [18:46]  Nebadon Izumi: it looks like it got a NaN or something [18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: negative number in BlockCoppy [18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: BlockCopy [18:47] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i didn't do it [18:47]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i think [18:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have seen that crash before too [18:47] Richardus Raymaker: NaN.. i think i saw that last time to... but then my login of database where wrong [18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: it looks like mono processing an http reply though - not even touching opensim code directly [18:47] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [18:47] Nebadon Izumi: wierd it happend twice [18:47] Nebadon Izumi: wonder what the heck triggered that [18:48] Nebadon Izumi: atleast Wright Plaza restarts fast now [18:48] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: man, why on earth isn't mono writte in java :) [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: only takes about 2 minutes [18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, opensim written in java, I mean [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [18:48]  Ruben Haan: heh [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: something tells me that wouldnt make much difference [18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: the jvm and sdk are far more mature [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt mean opensim would be though [18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but we wouldn't tend to suffer bugs in the sdk itself, which is what this looks like [18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i really dont know of anything as heavy as OpenSim written in java that runs well [18:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's stacks of enterprise stuff in java [18:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: huge amounts [18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: as heavy as opensim though? [18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i always try to avoid java stuff myself [18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: much heavier [18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, it's all academic [18:50] Richardus Raymaker: Java. prett headace stuff to. [18:51] Nebadon Izumi: well hopefully mono improves a bit soon [18:51] Nebadon Izumi: im more prone to blame opensim though [18:51] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:51] Richardus Raymaker: and mono is already good now [18:52] Nebadon Izumi: sending stuff to mono it doesnt like [18:52] Ruben Haan: what was the name of that javabased simulator [18:52] dan banner: mono is getting better all the time [18:52] Ruben Haan: open wonderland? [18:52] Nebadon Izumi: open wonderland is absolutely wretched [18:52] dan banner: thats java [18:52] Ruben Haan: i hear nothing about it annymore [18:52] Nebadon Izumi: it baffles me that anyone finds it suitable [18:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: seems to be popular with education people [18:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just can not imagine why [18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: and it has features that opensim doesn't have - much better voice, for example [18:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess i found it to be just awful [18:54] Justin Clark-Casey smiles [18:54] Nebadon Izumi: and i have no doubt that there are heavy java apps [18:54] Nebadon Izumi: but i imagine most of them cost millions of dollars to develop [18:55] Nebadon Izumi: if opensimulator had huge budget we would be a lot further along [18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but they rest on a jvm and sdk that are banged about constantly [18:55] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: budget always helps [18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: that's the thing - mono doesn't get that kind of workout [18:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suppose [18:55] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: you guys got some offeres of donations when you announced the foundation right? ? hopefully some of those will help too ;) [18:55] Nebadon Izumi: its progressing though [18:55]  Ruben Haan: if i marry an old miljonair i will donate some miljons [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0 will probably be a lot more advanced [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: java has a good 10 years on mono [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe more [18:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes. need to sort things out [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.12 is supposed to have some major fixes [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe we'll see some improvements when it hits [18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully soon [18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i am running 2.11 on my personal dev box [18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: seems to be holding up [18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i should update it again [18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling though that the HTTP server opensim uses [18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: is very very veeeeery buggy [18:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: the stack trace is within mono code [18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: but yeah, it's not impossible that it's a c# webserver issue [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya but couldnt it just be receving bad data [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: and not handling it well? [18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: you mean mono or the webserver? Certainly something is handling it badly [18:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya any of it i guess [18:59] Nebadon Izumi: i know diva has not had good things to say about our HTTP server [18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: mm [18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: probably something were gonna have to deal with at some point [18:59] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall too the one we use is no longer maintainted [19:00] Nebadon Izumi: maintained* [19:00] Nebadon Izumi: its probably pretty old too at this point [19:01] Nebadon Izumi: doh he crashed [19:01] Nebadon Izumi: heh [19:01] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: doh [19:01] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [19:01] Nebadon Izumi: anyway, anything else anyone wanted to bring up? [19:01] Nebadon Izumi: shame dougla didnt come back [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: douglas* [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: welcome back Justin [19:02] Justin Clark-Casey: aargh, my viewer is crashing as well, unusually [19:02] Nalates Urriah: How are we doing with Mesh? Has LL gotten the format to where it can be used? [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: Nalates, sorta [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: physics is screwed up [19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: even in SL [19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i dunno wtf LL is doing [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: Mesh seems very broken even on the LL beta grid [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: did last week anyway [19:02] Nebadon Izumi: i was doing some testing on Friday, and its really screwed on their grid as well [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: i am totally unable to get anything to make physics mesh [19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: aren't they supposed to be launching very soon? [19:03] Nalates Urriah: I've had probs with mesh here and on SL. [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya who Knows Justin [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: i expect disaterous launch [19:03] Nalates Urriah: They said August. I think they are sweating it now. [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: its sooo far from ready [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: but knowing them, they will still go forward [19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe they'll just delay [19:03] Nebadon Izumi: and piss off 90% of the grid [19:04] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it [19:04]  Richardus Raymaker: if its a disaster.. are we ready here for a new flood ? [19:04] Nebadon Izumi: that would be highly unusual for them to do that [19:04] Nalates Urriah: I'm betting they roll some time in August but only enable it on the RC's [19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: heh honestly I dont expect many more floods from SL [19:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it's a disaster there it probably won't be much better here :) [19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I think most people will just move on to something else [19:04]  Richardus Raymaker: Nalates, did the say wich year ? [19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its not any better here Justin [19:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: there isn't something else atm [19:04]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: i tihnk maybe one more flood will happen once word of the hypergrid reachs regular ? people - it's just that awesome [19:05]  Nalates Urriah: :) No but they did mean this one. After all SLCC is coming up [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: i just mean something else completely [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: xbox maybe? [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol [19:05] Justin Clark-Casey: if they wanted to be gaming they would already be doing that [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya well LL has not done anything to address the V2 haters [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: then they are gonna pile a bad Mesh launch on top of that [19:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know - it seems to me that most ppl are coming round to v2 [19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: eventually forcing everyone to V2 [19:06]  Nalates Urriah: THe Lindens keep hinting something great is in the works. But, no leaks yet. [19:06] Nebadon Izumi: its not gonna go well i expect [19:06] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm not that well connected to what's on the street [19:06] Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: any guesses? [19:06] Nebadon Izumi: they have said on many occasions that once Mesh goes live v1 support will soon die there after [19:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I think mesh effectively kills v1 - nobody will want to go to a regio nwhere they can't see the content [19:06] Nebadon Izumi: right [19:06] Nalates Urriah: I thinik V2 is more accepted than most realize. [19:06] Justin Clark-Casey: unless there's some massive commitment not to use meshes :) [19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has hinted at potentially even blocking it at some point [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont be immediate [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but at some point they likely will block it [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: so we'll see [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem with people flooding here from SL [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: is we are not SL [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: we are very far from any kind of SL replacement with the market places and social stuff [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: etc.. [19:08]  Richardus Raymaker: keep it a very slow flood. some people expect to much here. [19:08]  Nalates Urriah: I think they will watch viewer stats. When few people are using it they'll. Block. Several Lindens have said ? LL will NOT block just let feature creep push them out. [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its hard to say [19:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: yeah [19:08] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think LL even knows what they are doing 1/2 the time [19:08] Nebadon Izumi: until the last second [19:09] dan banner is Online [19:09] Richardus Raymaker: possible the people that can only run V1 viewers and cant get new pc go find something else. [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: all i can say for sure, is mesh is currently pretty broken [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: from my expereince [19:09] Nalates Urriah: I think they are too big for most to know what is going on. Each group seems to have their little area and ? now what is happening there. [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: Mesh actually works better in OpenSim [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: if you can beleive that [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: i have had waay more trouble on the LL grid [19:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not a huge company though - and now they're all in one location [19:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya it never was really a huge company [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: at peak it was what 300-400 employees [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: in fortune 500 land thats microscopic [19:10] Richardus Raymaker: its strange, LL have money. everything is on know hardware and the know how everything is setup. and ? still the do worser then opensim [19:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I really don't think they do worse [19:10] Nalates Urriah: Let me say it this way... They don't communicate well among staff [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: well they have many different problems than we do [19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [19:11] Richardus Raymaker: ok, maby i cant descripe it right. but thats best that came up [19:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: I thought maybe rodvik would change that? He seems a very switched on guy [19:11] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: :) [19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I just appreciate the issues that LL have trying to maintain a very large grid and work out a way ? to go forward [19:11]  Nebadon Izumi: personally I think Rodvik is no more effective than anyone prior to him [19:11]  Nalates Urriah: I expect to find out what he is changing at the SLCC announcments. [19:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i think LL's problem is the nontechnical investors [19:12]  Nebadon Izumi: who tend to drive things there [19:12]  Nalates Urriah: You could be right Neb [19:12]  Richardus Raymaker: whats SLCC ? especially the CC [19:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: yeah, I imagine something should come out at slcc [19:12]  Nebadon Izumi: SLCC is a RL convention for SL users [19:12]  Nalates Urriah: Second Life Community Conferance, I think [19:12]  Richardus Raymaker: ok [19:13]  Nalates Urriah: Search Google for SLCC 2011 [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: we'll see, LL is teetering on the edge right now [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: things could fall pretty much in any direction [19:13] Justin Clark-Casey: society of local council clerks [19:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: the edge? [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya of holding their community together [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: technical progress vs pissing everyone off [19:14] Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't think sl was every comprised of a single community [19:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ever [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: oh its not [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem to be making anyone happy lately [19:14] Mugetsu Storm: sorry to interrupt but are you saying SL is crumbling? [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: LL has been crumbling [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: for quite some time [19:14] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't say in touch with what's happening enough in ll to tell [19:14] Justin Clark-Casey: sounds rather pessimistic to me :) [19:14]  Nalates Urriah: They have a huge amount of daily signups. Plus they are now advertising and bringing in new marketing people. ? So, they aren't too worried about the existing users. [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its hard to say, there are many factors [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: economy being #1 [19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: Region counts are steady but not dropping - and they are profitable [19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: you do have to attract the new users [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: but LL doesnt seem to be making the best of a bad situation [19:15]  Mugetsu Storm: yeah thats true [19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: you cna't just cater to your base [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: they seem to be constantly making things worse for their user base [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i read a good article about how LL is chasing LL [19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: in wht way? [19:15] Nebadon Izumi: at the expense of their own user base [19:15] Nebadon Izumi: there is a good article showing that all the recent development going on at LL [19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: is to attract the facebook crowd [19:16] Nebadon Izumi: while pushing their current user base out [19:16] Nebadon Izumi: and the best part is [19:16]  Mugetsu Storm: i heard something about that to [19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: after all that work LL did to start integrating for Facebook [19:16] Nebadon Izumi: facebook goes and disables 1000's of Second Life user accounts [19:16] Nebadon Izumi: pretty much spitting in LL's face [19:16] dan banner: heh [19:16] Nalates Urriah: I wouldn't beleive that. Facebook has done some stupid stuff. Google+ may push them out and we may see LL do ? mroe with Google+. [19:17] Richardus Raymaker: i hear facebook stuff to, yuch [19:17] Nebadon Izumi: let me see if i can find that article [19:17] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty telling at the mentality at LL [19:17]  Nebadon Izumi: http://searchenginewatch.com/article/2081707/Eggs-and-Baskets-How-Second-Lifes-Facebook-Marketing-Has-? Backfired [19:17] Nebadon Izumi: good article i thought [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: problem with LL going after facebook is facebook requires you to use your real identity [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: and the majority of SL users dont want to reveal their RL identity [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: if FB finds out your account info is fake, they disable your account [19:19] Outback Abbot: I have a question friends

It would support OSGrid As a mass registration of users in the case of: a closure announced by SL? [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: that would be monumentally bad Outback [19:19] Richardus Raymaker: since when is the RL identty required ? i made acount and froze it. boring.. but cant remeber and data. ? or forget [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid might not actually survive that honestly [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: we have very limited resources [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: we could never accomidate the kind of load SL generates [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: you need to remember LL on average has around 50,000 users loggged in [19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: they have millions of dollars in infrastructure [19:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I highly doubt sl would ever just close anyway [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: right [19:20] dan banner: 40k bots [19:20] Richardus Raymaker: only escape is small HyperGrid then [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think SL is that dire [19:20] Justin Clark-Casey: at the very worst it would just tail off very slowly, like all the other long lived mmorpgs out there [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont think LL is doing enough to keep their hard core user base happy [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: LL is quite small [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: when compared to say facebook [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: or evey MySpace [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: Facebook logs in 50,000 users every minute [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: maybe more [19:21] Outback Abbot: I understand [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: there is still quite a lot of potential at LL [19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: for me its more about what LL is morphing into [19:21] dan banner: osgrid would break before 1000 i think [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: than me worried about it failing [19:22] Richardus Raymaker: we saw already weird things around 200 [19:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya that was before we upgraded our hardware too [19:22] Justin Clark-Casey: however, until that happens there's no incentive to improve the backend systems [19:22] Nebadon Izumi: but yes, OpenSim in general has trouble around a few 100 users [19:22] Nebadon Izumi: well i think its more than just back end system software too justin [19:22] Justin Clark-Casey: 200? [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: LL has literaly 100's of servers on their back end, not talking about simulators [19:23] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: where do you think the problem lies when you get up to those numbers? Inventory? [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: but the back end robust like services [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: LL has literally 150+ asset servers [19:23] Richardus Raymaker: bandwidth is one [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: that cost around 125,000$ USD a pop [19:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ultimately, this is the reason for having something more like the hypergrid, to spread the load [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has a huge amount of money tied up in infrastructure [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: millions [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: 10's of millions [19:24] Vivian Klees: Neb anymore testing with null? [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: null? [19:24] Vivian Klees: nulldb [19:24] dan banner: null storage [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: oh [19:24]  Richardus Raymaker: problem with HG 4096 [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: not really no [19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: the method i came up with is very hackish [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: and honestly after discovering that myisam yeilded so much better performance [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: i sorta moved on to other things [19:25] Justin Clark-Casey: presumably you still have trouble with speedbuilds, though? [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say, i think things have actually been pretty good at the last few speedbuilds [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: of course opensim still gets splodey if you do to much at once [19:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I see you're not advertising events on the website, currently [19:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that might be more to do with core code [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: and really we never gave the null database testing multiple builder testing [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: the null db stuff i did was not perfect by any means [19:26] Mugetsu Storm: nebadon: whats a speed build? [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: speedbuild is contest thing we do [19:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: still, it's worth bearing in mind. After all linden save out simulator states by the sound of it rather ? than updating a database [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: you get 1 hour to build a topic of our choosing [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: then everyone votes at the end [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya justin [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: thing is though LL sims are very hard to actually crash [19:26] Mugetsu Storm: so i building contest [19:27] dan banner: yes [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: its not so hard to degrade performance [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: but getting a hard crash in LL is almost impossible [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: unlike opensim [19:27] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: wait i thought 4096 was also a viewer thing - you trying to fix it in server?? [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: so unless your writing out states almost every second [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: you run the risk of loosing big swaths of work [19:27] Richardus Raymaker: 4096 is viewer thing with HG [19:27]  Richardus Raymaker: and teleports [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: my method rwote out states every 2 minutes [19:27] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there is that issue. thogh the same is true for the db approach [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: 2 minutes can be an eternity when your building fast [19:28] Justin Clark-Casey: though admittedly the db approach only saves parts [19:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [19:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: it is a viewer issue [19:28] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah thats what i thought [19:28] Mugetsu Storm: i build slowly and it always feels like an eternity [19:28] Nebadon Izumi: when i was doing my testing there was several times the sim crashed [19:28] Nebadon Izumi: and restarted and a bunch of stuff was missing [19:28] Nebadon Izumi: so it was far from perfect in the saving regards, but it did show that when it did work [19:28] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that 4096 is quite the damper. we should all move sims to lower. (ducks) [19:29] dan banner: alot can be lost in 2 minutes [19:29] Nebadon Izumi: it was 1000's of times more efficient [19:29] Nebadon Izumi: its sorta like ramdisk vs magnetic disc [19:29] Nebadon Izumi: risk vs reward [19:29] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [19:29] Justin Clark-Casey: persisting in the db always carries a high overhead [19:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: switching to myisam though made a big big difference [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: like i said it went from 9 hour datastore loading WP oar to 15 minutes [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: almost unbelievable improvement [19:30] Justin Clark-Casey: and you switched script DLLs to not get deleted here as well [19:30] Justin Clark-Casey: ? [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: correct [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: all the plazas are now [19:30] Richardus Raymaker: SInSeer, if you know a save way to ove osgrid. without war.... [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: sim load time went from 10 minutes to 2 minutes [19:30] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: richardus lol no i so don't i know it won't happen [19:30] Nebadon Izumi: i also updated the updater scripts to purge the dll's every update [19:31] Nebadon Izumi: so everytime we update we get 1 nasty startup [19:31] Nebadon Izumi: which is fine [19:31] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: just seems like we could all agree to solve the problem but it'd be like a ? cataclysm, sooooo much work [19:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya moving OSgrid would be difficult [19:31] Nebadon Izumi: and honestly moving to me is pretty much giving up on something i know can be fixed [19:31] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yah and it'd really have to be ever grid doing it to make the problem entirely go ? away [19:32] Nebadon Izumi: i know as soon as we moved the grid [19:32] Nebadon Izumi: someone would fix the problem [19:32] Nebadon Izumi: then it would have all been for nothing [19:32] Richardus Raymaker: hehe, like with everything [19:32] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: and it is a LOT of sims to move here ouch [19:32] Richardus Raymaker: whats the sim cpount now ? [19:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya with virtually no way to coordinate it [19:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: then again, people have looked to fix it in the viewer and failed [19:32] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah i was reading bout that justin :( [19:32]  Vivian Klees: those with mega's ouch [19:32]  dan banner: 6300 or so rich [19:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: the graphics problem reminds me of the kind of effect you seee when you go miles up in the air [19:33]  dan banner: 6505 [19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well honestly id say 75% of viewer devs are mostly concerned with SL [19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: they have no reason to want to fix it [19:33]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yah [19:33]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: there is that [19:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: the devs that are concerned with OpenSim are so overwhelmed with other stuff they just have not made it a ? priority [19:33]  Richardus Raymaker: right now the need to get up to sl2 [19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya and unfortunatly the problem is actually worse in V2 from my undersatnding [19:34] Nebadon Izumi: the map issue anyway [19:34] Nebadon Izumi: not the teleporting issue [19:34] Richardus Raymaker: oh ? [19:34] Justin Clark-Casey: 2048 apparantly [19:34] Richardus Raymaker: ok [19:34]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yeah - half of 4096 [19:34] dan banner: SL doesnt need more than their 8 million locations since they dont use any type of HG [19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: oh [19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: that sounds a disaster for osgrid [19:34] Nebadon Izumi: right SL is like 28,000 to 30,000 simulators in total [19:34] Nebadon Izumi: its less than 1% of what they coould actually handle [19:34] dan banner: out of 8 million possible locations [19:34] Richardus Raymaker: means pff. 9000-11000 .. auww [19:34] Outback Abbot: I honestly believe that Opensim viewer should have a new code itself to 100% without any code LL [19:35]  Sarah Kline is Online [19:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats a lot easier said that done Outback [19:35] dan banner: yeah start coding [19:35] Nebadon Izumi: making a viewer is monumentally harder compared to server side stuff [19:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I believe we should have a new Sistine Chapel in my garden [19:35] Dream Scientist: hello people [19:35] Nebadon Izumi: considering the solution needs to be cross platform [19:35] Justin Clark-Casey: hello dream [19:35] Nebadon Izumi: and really again, LL has spent millions developing their viewer [19:35] Nebadon Izumi: between licesnsing and developer time [19:36] Nebadon Izumi: its a huge amount of money invested in the LL viewer to get it as far as they did as fast as they did [19:36] Nebadon Izumi: making a similar viewer with volunteers is very hard work [19:36] Nalates Urriah gave you Errors from Nalates. [19:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the best choice if one wanted to do that would probably be to try and adapt the current realxtend viewer [19:36] Outback Abbot: I understand that it is easy to say, but that does not deny that OpenSim is limiting developers to viewers so ? they can not provide any code previously used in display [19:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya possibly [19:36] Nebadon Izumi: ive not had much luck with the Rex stuff [19:36] Nebadon Izumi: ive tried testing it, its so difficult to use [19:37] Nebadon Izumi: easy is not been a factor with them it seems [19:37] Nalates Urriah: I ran into the same thing, Neb. A PITA to setup and use. [19:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, usability is a tough problem [19:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: specially when you don't have tens of thousnads of people actually using it [19:37]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully that improves [19:38] Nebadon Izumi: it comes back to just a few volunteers again though [19:38] Outback Abbot: I apologize for my bad use of English [19:38] Nebadon Izumi: well Outback the viewer policy is changing [19:38] Nebadon Izumi: but i can almost gaurantee we wont see alot of viewer devs jumping on opensim development [19:38] Nalates Urriah: When we will see the change take effect for programmers? [19:38] Nebadon Izumi: there are other projects that are forks of opensimulator [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: that do not have viewer dev limitations in their policy [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: and they have literally attracted zero viewer devs [19:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: soon, but the agreement stuff needs to be worked through in the back first [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: but what will be nice is that the current opensim devs can start looking at the viewer code [19:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I don't think aurora has a high enough profile at this point [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya well it wasnt just Aurora if you recall [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: there was that openmetaverse project too [19:39] Nebadon Izumi: that went no where [19:40] Dream Scientist: may i ask what this meeting is about? [19:40] Nebadon Izumi: i cant recall the name now [19:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know if that was meant to be a fork or not [19:40] Dream Scientist: i dont really get it hehe [19:40] Justin Clark-Casey: dream: nominally it's opensim/osdev development [19:40] Justin Clark-Casey: er, osgrid [19:40] Nebadon Izumi: This is developer office hours Dream [19:40] Nebadon Izumi: for OpenSimulator [19:40] Dream Scientist: ah ok [19:40]  Key Gruin is Online [19:40] Dream Scientist: im not a developer, but come to hang out a bit and listen then [19:40] Nalates Urriah: No formal agenda so lots of stuff gets talked about [19:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya i do hope we get a few Viewer devs interested for sure [19:41] Nebadon Izumi: dont get me wrong i think its the right move [19:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [19:41] Nebadon Izumi: its just off the top of my head i dont know any who i think will just jump right in either [19:41] Justin Clark-Casey: we just have to get it done now [19:41] Nebadon Izumi: time will tell [19:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:41]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: well it seems a lot of devs wanna just do their own thing - so we end up with lots ? of side projects off opensim that have 1 programmer each [19:41] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: sighs [19:41] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is the viewer devs are as overwhelmed with viewer dev as opensim devs are with opensim [19:42] Nebadon Izumi: their time is already extremely limited [19:42] Nebadon Izumi: especailly with the urgency to get on V2 coming up [19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: so many things going on [19:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go, way over time here :) [19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully though what we can attraact are people not currently working on the viewer [19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: but people who are very familliar with it [19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin, thanks for coming [19:43]  Richardus Raymaker: bye jcc [19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: Bye everyone [19:43]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: thanks justin, have a good one! [19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: you still want to go over some of the OSgrid stuff today? [19:43]  dan banner: later justin [19:43]  Outback Abbot: bye Justin [19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: maybe later - I'm behind schedule [19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'll ping you on irc [19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: kk give a shout [19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: talk soon [19:43] Justin Clark-Casey waves [19:44] Nebadon Izumi: well good meeting, ran a little long today [19:44] Nebadon Izumi: but if anyone has anything they want to talk about please feel free to speak up [19:44]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: that's okay ;) but i do have to get going myself [19:44]  Key Gruin: just in time for the end lol [19:44]  Nebadon Izumi: heehe hey there Key [19:44]  Key Gruin: Hi Neb hi everyone [19:44]  Vivian Klees: oh no poor Key [19:45]  dan banner: dang [19:45]  Nebadon Izumi: thats ok we mostly spoke a lot about LL today [19:45]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [19:45]  Outback Abbot: hi Key [19:45]  Key Gruin: couldnt log in [19:45]  dan banner: i should have logged the first half before the crash