Chat log from the meeting on 2010-04-27

[08:48] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [08:48] Connected [08:50] Armin Weatherwax: Hi :) [08:51]  Edie Stewart is Offline [09:00]  player button: This Prim is Clean...  [09:00]  player button: This Prim is Clean...  [09:22]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (RC1)        43acd99: 2010-04-18 19:19:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [09:29]  Charles Krinke: Morning [09:34]  Nebadon Izumi: hey charles [09:34]  Nebadon Izumi: hows it going? [09:34]  Edie Stewart is Online [09:38]  Charles Krinke: Hi, Nebadon. I thought I would sit in and listen today, if you 'all dont mind. [09:39]  Nebadon Izumi: sure, dont mind at all.. glad to see you back around :) [09:40] Charles Krinke: I sold the big house, just moved into a smaller condo in a high-rise near the Orange County airport and am trying to get a small company going (translated means no money) [09:40] Nebadon Izumi: cool, sounds exciting [09:40] Nebadon Izumi: except the no money part [09:40] Nebadon Izumi: hehe thats never fun [09:40] Melanie Milland is Online [09:41] Charles Krinke: Well, I didnt want to subject all of you to all the tribulations I went through for the last few months, so I decided to hide in my 'cave' [09:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya no problem man, we all do what we can, i do hope you have time in the future when you get things worked out [09:41] Charles Krinke: Well, I am trying. Some say I am "very trying" [09:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol [09:41] Charles Krinke: Grid working well? [09:41] Nebadon Izumi: im sure they say the same about me [09:41]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya its been working great lately [09:42] Charles Krinke: How many total users and simultaneous are we up to? [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: were just about to hit 40,000 users [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: and around 6000 regions [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: not sure how many are keeping 100% uptimes [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: but were getting big [09:42] Nebadon Izumi: we bought some new servers for the assets [09:43] Charles Krinke: I was wondering what the average and peak on the grid is at the same time. Last I looked it was 100 or so. [09:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya were aveeraging around 80-90 probably [09:43] Nebadon Izumi: were getting about 3500 unique IP visitors every month [09:44] Charles Krinke: Coolness. Well, as a labor of love, all one can do is nurture it. [09:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya, were testing some new stuff out now [09:44] Nebadon Izumi: Jhurliman and a bunch of us are creating a new back end system in PHP [09:44] Nebadon Izumi: called SimianGrid [09:44] Nebadon Izumi: its a Robust Replacement basiclly [09:44] Charles Krinke: great, Jhurliman is good people [09:44] Nebadon Izumi: were still testing Robust though [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: we have a fully updated Robust grid called danger grid [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty closed off right now though [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: there is no web interface that works with the newst Robust [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: the nice thing about SimianGrid is that it has a integrated web interface [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: http://onikenkon.com [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: i have a little test grid going here [09:45] Charles Krinke: physical vehicles still in about the same state? [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: they have come along pretty good [09:45] Nebadon Izumi: its still far from perfect [09:46] Nebadon Izumi: but there is some cool vehicles now [09:46] Nebadon Izumi: even some baloons and helicopters [09:46] Charles Krinke: Can we make a mass transit monorail or train between plazas, yet? [09:46] Nebadon Izumi: probably not one that would be reliable [09:46] Nebadon Izumi: were probably getting close though [09:46] Charles Krinke: Probably a dream of mine that is too unrealistic in a world where teleporting is soo easy [09:46] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if you noticed the huge freebie mall behind us [09:47]  Nebadon Izumi: it was sort of inspired by the freebie mall on SciSim grid [09:47] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so, i would love to see a train system too [09:47] Nebadon Izumi: i think its realistic [09:47] Nebadon Izumi: its just very complex [09:47] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim's uptimes have increased though a great deal [09:47] Charles Krinke: Well, yeah. The idea was originally to have it as a way to have an ongoing test of sim software scripting and crossings. [09:48] Nebadon Izumi: were regularly having over 24 hour uptimes now with Lbsa Plaza and here [09:48] Charles Krinke: thats getting there [09:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya, especially with the kind of loads it sees sometimes [09:48] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen 20-30 people there pretty regularly [09:48] Charles Krinke: got a visitor, back in a few [09:48] Nebadon Izumi: kk [09:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll be here [09:48] Nebadon Izumi: meetings starting in about 15 [10:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Nebadon. Hello Charles - nice to see you [10:01] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:01] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justin [10:01] Charles Krinke: morning, Justin. Thought I would sit it. [10:01] Charles Krinke: er, sit in [10:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: How are things going? [10:01] Charles Krinke: Working, trying to get sales, am in my office in Carlsbad, CA [10:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: You're working in sales now? [10:02] Charles Krinke: Well, ... no, but am supporting sales with techno-babble [10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, I see :) [10:03]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey penny [10:04]  Penny Lane: Hi Justin :-) [10:04] Edie Stewart is Offline [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: Justin i was testing SqliteNG [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: did you speak to diva? [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I saw the library she put in - can't think why I forgot to do that [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe kk [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: I had put it on my Windows machine and tested it but simply forgot to commit it [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: I have 1 region on Danger grid running it [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: doh! [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: on linux I presume? [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i updated that grids robust too [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya that whole grid is pure linux [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: mono 2.6 I presume? [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: or even later? [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: yes 2.6.1 and 2.6.3 were tested [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: everything seem okay? [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya seemed perfect [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i made a new sim, answered all the questions [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: cool. I'm really sad it doesn't work on mac osx though - so very annoying [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: logged in, did a terrain fill 21 [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: rezzed a few dozen cubes [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: did border crossings [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: restarted everythign survived [10:06] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the test - much appreciated Neb [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: no problem [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: i tested in standalone as well [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: that also seemed fine [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny, nebadon, justin [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Rich [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: heh seems like a light attendance day [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: suprising [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi charles [10:07] Edie Stewart is Online [10:07] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-) [10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, seems very quiet [10:08]  Penny Lane: Charles is here? Not seen him for ages [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, he will be sitting in on todays meeting listening [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but wierd not many people showed up today [10:08]  Richardus Raymaker: hi FuB [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: last few meetings lots showed up [10:08]  Penny Lane: Welcome back, CK :-) [10:09] Fu Barr: hello ruch - hello all :) [10:09]  Fu Barr: lol rich :) sowwy [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: maby everybody lost in thge garden ? [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, kinda funny. Some big event going on elsewhere? [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe no big deal, ya there might be [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe that means everythigns working perfectly [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yeeeeeesssssssssssss :) [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing to complain about [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: actually though things have been really good [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: we are seeing awesome uptimes with the plazas lately [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa Plaza has seen several 24+ sessions the last few weeks [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: 24+ hour sessions that is [10:10]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:10]  Charles Krinke: morning. i am doing double duty while in the office, but will sit here in the background and listen today. [10:11]  Fu Barr: mr nebadon sir, have you installed a new sofa here - or am i just slor to rezz? :) [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: could just be a little slow [10:11] Richardus Raymaker: something unstable [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: its the same one [10:11] Fu Barr: lol [10:11] Penny Lane: When is the whole ROBUST thing finally going to settle down? From memory, it's like this has been ongoing for a whole year. [10:11] Fu Barr: okies. [10:11] Richardus Raymaker: firts imp [rudence. now on other pc with hippo 0.6 and crash to [10:11] Fu Barr lets all the puns on RUBUST slide [10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: you're lucky it ain't BUST :) [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:12]  Fu Barr: lol [10:12]  Penny Lane: Imprudence never crashes on me here, but then I run Linux :-) [10:12] Charles Krinke: It started out as "BUST", if I recall. [10:12] Simpy Merryman is Online [10:12] Penny Lane: Except on Neb's videos, hehe [10:12] Fu Barr: actually me running hippo on win7 - never ever crashes [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ah here comes the crowd [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: It will settle down when 0.7 comes out - though maybe it's not quite so crucial now there are alternatives like SimianGrid [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, everything takes longer than expected... :) [10:13] Melanie Milland is Offline [10:13]  Penny Lane: Neb: now that Imprudence develops for Opensim as their primary target, you should be sorted out soon. [10:13]  Clemson GS: thanks for the notification Nebadon :-) [10:13] Charles Krinke: no, Justin, say it isnt so. [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: heh [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: cool Penny [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh poor richardus [10:14] Simpy Merryman: good morning everyone :) [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: must be having network issues or something [10:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi simpy [10:14]  Penny Lane: Is OSgrid looking at using SimianGrid-type services? [10:14]  Fu Barr waves [10:14]  Sarah Kline: hi all [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: were exploring it yes Penny [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its not really ready yet though [10:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: do you have any feeling for how many people are using opensim with mac osx? [10:14]  Penny Lane: Interesting [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: not for this scale [10:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its very low Justin [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont have exact numbers but its pretty low [10:15]  Fu Barr: jcc: i tried and tried and gave up. too annoying [10:15]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:15]  Fu Barr: giveing up all of osx soon too - that even more annoying [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Dave Coyle might have some viewer stats we can pull from nginx [10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. I'm wondering whether to go with SqliteNG or take a crack at rewriting things to avoid data adaptors. But I desparately don't want to spend yet more time on this problem [10:15] WhiteStar Magic is Online [10:15] Richardus Raymaker shouts: if this hippo 0.5.1 crash to something must be wrong [10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ping17 [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: multiple logins i think [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: nasty buggers [10:16] Charles Krinke: Whats happening to you, Richardus? [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: does nobody turn up on time any more? :) [10:16] Fu Barr grumbles as i seee miss kline in my fav wspot :) [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya it sounds like your having network issues maybe richardus [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: penny, i sayed im in OPSY fight. linux windows ;libux, and possible back to linudx. seem impudence woks fatser with llkdu.dll [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: you seem to be the only one crashing [10:16] Fu Barr: lol =- noo need to move :) [10:17]  Simpy Merryman: soeey Justin, I just woke up, very early here :) [10:17] Edie Stewart is Online [10:17] Sarah Kline: lol [10:17] Fu Barr: wow - me getting chat avalanche - [10:17] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, it worked fine the lastd ays. but with ISP. you really neve rknow [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: simpy: np - I'm just grousing :) [10:17]  Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah [10:17]  Sarah Kline: hi Richard [10:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya ive been having to reboot my router and modem alot more lately it seems with my ISP [10:17]  Richardus Raymaker: hi simpy [10:18]  Penny Lane: Rich: last time I looked, Impru had a memory leak when not using KDU. I'll have to check that again before 1.3 full release comes out. [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: might have to call em in for a tune up [10:18]  Simpy Merryman: gey RR [10:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's the usual time of the day here when I get hungry [10:18]  Simpy Merryman: hey I mean :) [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know the are slowly upgradeing to VDSL system [10:18] Fu Barr: btw. me just want to say thanks to all the developers - i'm having very few issues with the recent opensim code and i;m really thankful for being able to do my RL experiments with it - big up! [10:18] WhiteStar Magic: I run Imprudence, 2 days old with llKDU and no mem leaks [10:18] Simpy Merryman: wipes sleep from eyes and sits up more in bed [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: fu: cool, thanks :) [10:19]  Fu Barr: that said.... there are about 584 issues i'm seeing... *evil grin* [10:19]  Richardus Raymaker: hi WS. imprudence works always fine for me. but not tonight. and under linux i have low frame rate. (without llKDU) [10:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: fu: yep - big bug mountain still [10:19]  Penny Lane: WS: yep, I'm usually up on SL without ever closing with Impru, using KDU, so no memory leak like that. [10:19]  Fu Barr: lol [10:19]  Penny Lane: Well over a week [10:20]  Charles Krinke: Do we need more testing and confirmation of issues in Mantis? [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: heh Always charles [10:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, now it feels like the old days :) [10:20] Fu Barr: btw. i;m slowly bringing in builder types from the l inden grid... so some pretty good building might be happening ion and around my simis soon. they might all get cold feet still, but i'm hoping they'll be doing good work soon :) [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:20]  Richardus Raymaker: can someone not mix 2 parts linux with 1 part windows and make a good OpSY :) [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: cool FU [10:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it can be daunting getting advanced builders adjusted for OpenSim Living [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: if you build like you build in SL, its gonna be a disaster [10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I should thin kthe lack of group-take, and linking issues are still beig problems [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:22]  Fu Barr: lol - so much fun to see them get all excited sbout the prim sizes and no (practical) limits... but they all get totally confused with the undo issues... [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: if you move at the speeds your used to moving in SL [10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: things are gonna explode here still [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: fast linking/unlinking is one for sure [10:22] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (RC1)        43acd99: 2010-04-18 19:19:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [10:22] Fu Barr: ned: yes - i'm seeing that in my own building... lots of collecting prim from 0,0,0 [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: if i dont have console access to watch whats happening, i have a hard time building [10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: What would people say is the biggest building problem? [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: linking/unlinking [10:22] Simpy Merryman: chuckles, well prim limits have gone out the window for me :) [10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: and undo [10:23]  Fu Barr: weirdness in undo with linked prim sets [10:23]  Richardus Raymaker: yes [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: undo is horrible some times [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: bringer of pain [10:23]  Simpy Merryman: linking [10:23]  Penny Lane: Perhaps Opensim should skip right over the linkset issues and create hierarchical objects instead. Leapfrog SL. Viewers like Imprudence will support you directly. [10:23]  Fu Barr: i dont use undo anymore at all -too freaky [10:23]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [10:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: undo did get some fixes recently-ish [10:23]  Richardus Raymaker: beter close your eyes if you undo. but i try to ot use undo at all. to risky [10:23]  Fu Barr: i shift copy or delete [10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya undo cant ruin your day big time [10:24]  Fu Barr: also rotation round root prim is odd [10:24] Simpy Merryman: I now just unlink the prim I want to edit then relink it afterwards, too much hassle and disaster any other way [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: if you do a lot of shift while dragging copy and undo [10:24] Fu Barr: especially when it;s wuite a large link set [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: for perfect rotation building [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty much impossible to do it fast paced [10:24] Fu Barr: yes - but on the otherhand i did do a 5k translate and rotate the other day... [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: if you use a center point to rotate [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: for perfect cylinders etc. [10:25]  Fu Barr: yes center poiunt rotation is a big deal for me - and it;s not always to be trusted [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: see i should be able to undo [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: and it it should snap back to the center [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: but it doesnt [10:25] Fu Barr: yes another thing is 'linked prim' edit - they see to work - but then they 'snap back' to the old state [10:25] Penny Lane: JCC: was it you or Adam who started looking at hierarchical objects? I remember reading something like that on the -dev list. [10:26] Fu Barr: so you need to unlink - change relink [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: it just poofs away [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: fu: yeah, I've hit the linked prim problem myself [10:26] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [10:26]  Penny Lane: Hi Dahlia :-) [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: adam was going to do some general scene object refactoring work for realxtend but I don't know what the status of that is [10:26]  Fu Barr: but i;m basically too happy that opensim is where it is - so i;m just sucking it all up and moving on. [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: penny, what linux do you use ? [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [10:26] Penny Lane: Rich: Gentoo [10:26] Simpy Merryman: hi Daglia [10:26] Penny Lane: JCC: ah, kk [10:27]  Simpy Merryman: mutters at typing in the dark [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [10:27] Charles Krinke: morning, Dahlia [10:27] Fu Barr: oh another thing i;m seeing a lot of.... [10:27]  Fu Barr: is phontom prims out of nowhere. [10:27] Dahlia Trimble: hiya Charles, been a while :) [10:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: fu: which version of opensim are you using? [10:27]  Fu Barr: ie you rez, modify size etc. and then walk over it... and you fall straight through [10:27]  Charles Krinke: I missed all you guys (and gals) [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that might just be lag [10:27]  Richardus Raymaker: i just try to avoid and linking when im building. solves most of the problems. other worse problem keeps a prim you move gets phantom mmmmmmmmm. 2000meters lower.. [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: on the remesh [10:27]  Penny Lane: Nice see CK back ... even a silent one :-) [10:28] Charles Krinke: Oh, I can easily be "un-silent" [10:28] Fu Barr: me usingthe latest 'sanctioned' osgrid from the osgrid site for connecting here... [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:28] Penny Lane: Hehehe [10:28] Charles Krinke: I just didnt want to hijack the meeting [10:28] Fu Barr: may ll be fixied in 0.7.x [10:28]  Fu Barr: on the other hand 10 days ago git opensim still had very similar issues with linkset and stuff [10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I might possibly give up on sqlite on osx for now and put a proper 0.6.9 out soon [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya my guess is OSX use is low right now [10:29] Charles Krinke: sqlite headed towards a dean-end? [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to support it directly [10:29] Fu Barr: ya - that sounds cool. i really think osx opensim is a little pointless atm. [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: but that sorta requires mac users to support it too [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: cant expect non mac users to be able to fix that kinda stuff [10:29] Fu Barr: been around compilations and *nix and dependencies etc. for a long long time and osx just makes me cry :( [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: I did do a lot of work to fix it for mono 2.6+, but the changes don't work with mac osx because it ships a version of the sqlite3 library without the right function hooks [10:30]  Charles Krinke: rats [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: OSX people should find a light weight linux they can virtualize [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: like susestudio or something [10:30]  Penny Lane: Neb: good idea [10:30]  Dahlia Trimble: are there mono binaries available for OSX? [10:30]  Fu Barr: neb: i tried using virtualbox and arch, but isaid to myself that that was just too insane [10:30]  Richardus Raymaker: yes [10:30]  Charles Krinke: Unless there are two core developers (or active patch submitters) running OSX, that will be an uphill battle. [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: what about vmware [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: vmware shoudl be solid on macs [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: i can see virtualbox lacking support on mac [10:31] Richardus Raymaker: same for other pc's btw :O some ready to run Virtualbox iso. with mysql etc. [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: its Sun by all means [10:31] Fu Barr: oh it ran fine, but you need to give 2Gb ram to the virtual box leaving 1Gb for osx on my MBP - and then - well the pain starts. [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya [10:31]  Richardus Raymaker: whats misisng in virtualbox on mac ? for friend it works [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: its not a solution for everyone [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: but if your in a pinch [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: im sure it could be worked out [10:31] Dahlia Trimble: I use virtualbox but it seems to requite a lot of overhead [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: in a smaller footprint than 2gb [10:31] Fu Barr: rich: it all works - but elegant or fast it aint [10:31] Penny Lane: What's VirtualBox's status now because of Oracle purchase? [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: really if you do non-gui linux 512 should get you a nice local sandbox [10:32] Charles Krinke: "no program will ever require more then 640K of RAM" [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:32] Simpy Merryman: another pain I hate about linksets is sometimes they go phantom on you, and you have to keep unlinking and relinking to make them solid again [10:32] Fu Barr: neb: yes, me running 4Gb ram atm. and finally got the nvidia framebuffer in, so now it moves pretty well. dedicated hosting makes a _real_ difference too. [10:33] Fu Barr: simpy: yeh me seeing that too [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: Simpy that probably depends on the viewer your using [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: and if it supports nesting linksets [10:33] Charles Krinke: Can someone set up a link/unlink demo recipe that a core developer or patch submitter can study in the code as it works. Also means viewing the console to see where the issues are. [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: I know hippo suports nesting linksets [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: it can be confusing [10:33] Fu Barr: oh and speaking of viewers me been switching between hippo/impru/meerkat a lot these past days and the whole 'body part not found in database/asset store' is getting alittle old - anybody else olse seeing that? [10:34] Richardus Raymaker: i think hippo is the only one that can link beyond some distance to [10:34]  Penny Lane: Kill linksets, make hierarchical objects instead, from scratch. Then define each node's immediate children to be a linkset. Much more flexible than LL's design. [10:34] Charles Krinke: I think we will always have the "tension" between C# developers and artists on "how things work" as the C# developers dont know how to do the advanced "building" stuff. [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i see it now and then Fu Bar [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: but generally i just re-wear my avatar and its fixed [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: not sure whats going on there [10:34] control break: hello [10:34] Key Gruin: yes viewer switching is problematic for me too [10:34] Fu Barr: penny: go for it if it means i get grouped prims and reliable undo - i'll be chief fanboi! [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: hello control [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i get it without switching viewers [10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: fu: I do sometimes find issues if you connect to different grids with the same named avatar [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think thats the cause honestly, though maybe its one of the triggers [10:35] Charles Krinke: what a great name "Control Break". Almost as good as "Count Zero" [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ah see that makes more sense Justin [10:35] Fu Barr waiting for Seg Fult to log on [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be what im getting it i bet [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: im jumping from Danger Grid to OSgrid to the Oni Kenkon Grid alot [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: all my avatars use same name [10:35] Penny Lane: Fu: I'm just stirring interest. We've had Jiras for hierarchical objects in SL for years, but of course they won't do them. I'd like to see Opensim leap ahead in that. [10:36] Charles Krinke: I have always felt the plazas and in particular this plaza when running this meeting to be one of the best stress tests we have on an ongoing basis. [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the sl viewer doesn't expect that I think. Seems to occasionally cause me troubles [10:36] Fu Barr: hmmm. i just jump from osgris to linden swamp to oggioggigrid, and me get it on getting back to osgrid [10:36] Richardus Raymaker: penny, its great if opensim kick LL ass complete.. [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya This plaza especially has been a good test i think for sure [10:36] Penny Lane: Would be sad if LL did hierarchical objects first, and then Opensim chased their tail lights. [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: as have the Homestead Regions [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: Penny [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: we support that already [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: Hippo viewer does [10:36] Simpy Merryman: I just use different viewers to goto different grids... [10:37] control break: haha thank you Charles :) [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its the only viewer that does, opensim already can support it [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ive done 6000 prims in a linkset [10:37]  Richardus Raymaker: penny, opensim have mega's [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its like 4 teirs of links [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: required 4 unlinkings to get it completely unlinked [10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that might possibly just be hippo-side.... there really isn't anything in opensim that would support that [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: takes hours though [10:37]  Fu Barr: neb:is that 'just out of the box' with hippo? [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: and they are stressful [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: no mods required [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it just does it [10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: does the hierarchical linking survive a relog? [10:37]  Penny Lane: Neb: where is that documented? If Hippo does it (first I've heard), then Imprudence and others could too. [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: since like 0.4 [10:38] Charles Krinke: box? there is no box. (nor spoon, either) [10:38] Clemson GS: richardus: are mega's only supported in Opensim or does LL support it too? [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: sure, best to ask melanie [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: that was her thing i believe [10:38] WhiteStar Magic: Hippo 5 has done it all along [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: she worked with mana to have that done [10:38] Charles Krinke: mega regions are particular to OpenSim [10:38] Clemson GS: mega's are nice [10:38] Charles Krinke: Its basically several regions running on one server as an array. [10:38] Simpy Merryman: hehe I love my mega :) [10:38]  Nebadon Izumi: JustinCC yes [10:38]  Nebadon Izumi: it survives [10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: want me to pass you one? [10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: you can rez it later [10:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes please [10:39]  Simpy Merryman: gege it up to over 42l prims on it now [10:39]  Fu Barr: but it semes to have issues with regular regions on the edges of a megaregion array... [10:39]  Charles Krinke: Hmmm. I move the boxes in the middle of the floor up one meter and they disappeared. [10:39]  control break: are Megaprims surviving on LL grid only by copy and replication, or is it a way to actually create them from scratch ? [10:39]  Clemson GS: i'm actually testing that right now fu. Haven't noticed any problems going from the regular region to the mega [10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: dang 1 sec searching for it [10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:40]  Fu Barr: control: copy and replication - as of 5 months ago... havent been there much since [10:40] Penny Lane: Neb: that's very good news, surprised I hadn't heard of it before. Is the hierarchical linkage system documented anywhere? [10:40] Nebadon Tester is Online [10:40] Charles Krinke: control break. There are megaprims and megaregions. I think the megaprims on the LL grid are surviving by copying [10:40] control break: Fu - this is truly fantastic :)) [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: i hate when you cant remember the name of something [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: and you have 25000 items to look through [10:40] Simpy Merryman: hehe [10:40] Fu Barr: clemson: interesting, i tried it a week or so ago and couldnt fly into the region next doror. and I made sure the ports were sete ok [10:41] Clemson GS: yup, i've actually go a second viewer up right now doing that. Just popping back and forth. Was trying to see if any messages on the consoles displayed [10:41] Fu Barr thinks maybe spring inv cleaning would be a good thing [10:41] Nebadon Tester gave you Zonja Capalini: Enormous rotating Klein Bottle [2889 prims]. [10:42] Clemson GS: there is a 1 second delay, then it lets me in [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: there you go [10:42]  Fu Barr: btw. are the iar issues that were seen by some a few ago solved? [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: that one is 2889 prims [10:42] Richardus Raymaker: inventory cleaning... you can write 100 howto's about it... it will never work good [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: they get sorta hard to handle [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey accepted your inventory offer. [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: but its very possible to exceed the LL linking limits [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: got it, thanks [10:42] Penny Lane accepted your inventory offer. [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: i sent you one also penny [10:43] Penny Lane: Thanks Neb [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: also i have an oar [10:43] Simpy Merryman: so Nebadon, do you just make a linkset, then put anothe rlinkset into it and so on? [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/oars/large_structures_01.oar [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: this has more giant linksets i made [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: the one i gave you Zonja made [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: its more impressive [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:44] Fu Barr thinks he might tiptoe back to his regions and turn the 6k basilica into a simgel linkset.... [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: Fu Bar [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: make backups [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: and then backup your backups [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: and so on and so forth [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:44] Fu Barr: lol [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: you will break it 5 or 6 times [10:45] Fu Barr: yes - you are wuite right... think i may do that right after the tiptoeing and before the linking :) [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: be patient [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: watch the console [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: never link two times [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: without knowing the 1st times datastore has completed [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: if you dont it will be a absolute disaster [10:45]  Fu Barr: well i it took me over 10 mins to bring down the 6k prim form sky to land and then rotate... [10:45]  Clemson GS: what causes that delay? [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: well if you do a 2nd linkset while the 1st datastore is underway [10:45]  Fu Barr: but recon that was mostly due to the weak gfx card that had a horrible time drawing theprim outlines on all that prim [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: it will mix the 2 linkings up [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: and both datastores seem to occur simulteanously [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: its bad [10:46]  Charles Krinke: probably all the network traffic *and* reads/writes to the databases on the local server and the grid inventory and asset servers. [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: clemson: time taken to write to the regio ndatabase [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya its just a lot of read/writing [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: but if you watch the console you can save yourself a lot of heartache [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure there's a lot of scope for performance improvements though [10:46] Fu Barr: yes - i have been looking at that... and was wondering how it happens that certain things do get stored and others not stored but rezsed etc. especially when rezzing xml exports from linden grid via meerkat. [10:46] Clemson GS: just curious if running the db on a seperate high performance db server would make any difference [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: yes, just go slow [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: thats my best recommendation [10:47] Fu Barr: ya - the console has been v helpful :) [10:47]  Charles Krinke: If one has 10Ghz CPU's, 24000 RPM drives, 8 processors and a 1000BaseT interface to the internet, it will be *much* faster. [10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: dont build and link at 1000mph [10:47]  control break: hehehe :) [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: clemson: maybe a bit [10:47] Fu Barr: neb: but it's hard to slow down once you hit a certain level of build skill... you just want to rush and rush and rush - lol [10:47] control break: I believe this occurs on SQLite standalone installation [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya tell me about it [10:47]  Clemson GS: ah [10:47]  Penny Lane: Just don't build remotely, use a local instance. [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to keep the reall good builders here [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: they get super frustrated [10:48] Fu Barr: hmmm. [10:48] control break: SQLite datastore is slow as hell [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: were improving though [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: its alot better than a year ago [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you that [10:48] Fu Barr: i think the prim benefits and flexibility outways the frustratino of speed. by a mile. :) [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, nobody should use sqlite for serious work. I am ambivalent about it [10:48]  Fu Barr: yeah - it's sooo much better - it's night and day. [10:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: Sometimes I think we would be better off without it [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: honestly [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: if you want to do mega linksets [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: this can be daunting [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: but [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: turn of datastore [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: make it null [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: load in your oar [10:49]  control break: sure. Moreover, it keeps the whole region prims in - memory because it keeps everything in datasets [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: link it up [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: do a save oar [10:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's an inventive solution! [10:49]  Penny Lane: Key-value stores should be faster than MySQL. Seem to recall someone working on that. [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: this goes incredible faster [10:49] Fu Barr: speaking of not doing linksets.... i know we can do exports and back ups and oar etc. but is there a rez faux scipt set in osgrid? [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: you risk loosing work [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: but if the datastore fails you run the same risk [10:50] control break: penny lane : I have started to read about non relational databases :) it might worth a deep look [10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: fu: rez faux? [10:50]  WhiteStar Magic: http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2233 There is a modded Builders Buddy [10:50]  Penny Lane: control: yeah, "NoSQL", it's really gaining momentum now. [10:50]  Fu Barr: jcc: yeah - it;s a linden grid solution that tracks prim and sticks it in a box and then you can 'unfold' it in another place [10:51]  control break: "NoSQL", that's the keyword I was looking for :) [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: fu: ah, interesting [10:51] Richardus Raymaker: yes rezz-faux cool script [10:51] Fu Barr: jcc: basically you give /sell peeps a box with content and the script then rerezzes it with the coords/rots/translations it had when it got 'packaged' [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: well with hippo viewer [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: you really dont need that [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: its a thing of the past [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: jhurliman was playing around with key/value for simiangrid [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: its why i have not explored the rezzers [10:52] WhiteStar Magic: Builder's Buddy is teh OpenSource version of Rez-Faux [10:52] Penny Lane: JCC: thanks, I'll look into that. [10:52] Fu Barr: neb: i agree - but i was just wondering if the scripts were 'out there' [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: probably but gotta remember [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: SL has microthreading [10:52] Fu Barr: whitestar - thanks will look into it. [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: we dont [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: rezzers will be uber death here [10:52] control break: I managed to run simian only one time :) [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: without microthreading at the script engine level [10:53]  Simpy Merryman: Hey Redvers [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure those rezzers will ever work too good [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe for small items [10:53]  control break: I had been plagged by bad conversion issues because of french culture on my OS :$ [10:53]  WhiteStar Magic: they are a one shot rez & placement tool, not a re-rezzer [10:53]  REDVERS WASPE: Sorry for being tardy [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of the rezzers have move capability whitestar [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: those ar ethe ones that wont fly [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: if you can move the rezzed object by moving the rezzer box [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: those are sooo nasty [10:54]  WhiteStar Magic: they can be certainly fugly [10:54]  Fu Barr thought those were the ones that were quite nifty relly... [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: well ya [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: they are awesome to use [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: but they do a number on the sim [10:54] WhiteStar Magic: That builders Buddy works though, althouygh, no call to use them but some might [10:54] Fu Barr: okay - i'll go check it all out... made bulletpoint on TODO list :) [10:54] Penny Lane: Well that's what hierarchical objects give you --- just move the root, and it all moves as a unit. Rotate one node, and the three below it all rotates. [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: those put all the stress on the viewer penny [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: and virtually none on the simulation [10:55]  Fu Barr: sounds great [10:55]  Fu Barr: gimme gimme gimee! [10:55]  Richardus Raymaker: nice [10:55]  WhiteStar Magic: Supposedly, Imprudence will have teh linking patch fro Hippo in it [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: awesome [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: should be a easy port i would think [10:56]  Penny Lane: Neb: which is as it should be. Client CPU power scales linearly with population. Sim power doesn't scale at all. [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ya totally [10:56]  Richardus Raymaker: if viewers get better multicore (sofar i know the dont do very well) its perfect [10:56] Nebadon Tester is Offline [10:56] Fu Barr: oh i just discovered the multicore option in the viewer (me slo sometimes) and it seems to make my PCU fan go faster - :) [10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: fu: ha ha [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ya there is still a lot to do in the whole parallel processing / multi core market [10:57]  Richardus Raymaker: he he [10:57]  control break: must try this [10:57]  Fu Barr: noisey little bugger it turns out to be... [10:57]  Penny Lane: Fu Bar: allegedly, the only thing that's multithreaded is Jpeg2k *decoding*, nothing else. [10:57]  control break: btw, what is the gap between Imprudence and Emerald ? [10:57]  Fu Barr: well i dunno - as i've been warned off the viewer code [10:58]  Richardus Raymaker: did btw someone very got the 64bit impudence running nunder linux ? [10:58]  Fu Barr: aparentally very bad things will happen if i look at it [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:58]  Armin Weatherwax: yeah, it runs for me, richardus [10:58] Fu Barr: not that my code-fu is good enough to actually get any code in to help with the multi-core stuff [10:59] Richardus Raymaker: it never worked here. so when im done i drop 32bit back with llkdu [10:59] Fu Barr: but it woul be most totally lovely to hack one r two other feetchers in tothe viewer. [10:59] Penny Lane: Fu Barr: a jabberwocky will spawn and eat your eyes out. Or something like that, according to the contrib agreement. [10:59] WhiteStar Magic: According to MMAxstead, the Link Fix from Hippo is in the new Imrpudence Code [10:59] Fu Barr: ya - i recon it wasn't worth dealing with the hellspawn from lawyerland [11:00] Fu Barr: do want those features though... it;s a conundrum [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: if everyone doesnt mind i have a cool creative commons video i wanted to play about using creative commons license [11:00] Dahlia Trimble cant see video [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe some background noise [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I need to go and work. thanks for the conversation, folks [11:00] Penny Lane: Imprudence devs now have Opensim as their primary target, so they're happy to work with Opensim devs. [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: let me paste a URL to the video itself [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey waves [11:00] Penny Lane: See you Justin :-) [11:01]  Fu Barr: bye jcc :) [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: bye jcc [11:01] control break: bye Justin ^^ [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.archive.org/details/GetCreativeNS [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: /gotta go too, bye all :) [11:01]  Fu Barr: what's the best place/way to get in touch with them? [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Dahlia [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming [11:01]  Fu Barr: bye bye! [11:01]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:01]  Penny Lane: Cyu Dahlia :-) [11:01] control break: bye Dahlia [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia