Chat log from the meeting on 2009-08-25



[10:47] Michelle Argus is Online

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: yuo

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: yo too

[10:52] Warin Cascabel is Online

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: yo

[10:53] Warin Cascabel: Howdy.

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: i unlinked the bench seats

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully it will behave better

[10:53] WhiteStar Magic: hey all

[10:53] WhiteStar Magic: Baba you need to rebake

[10:53] Warin Cascabel is Offline

[10:54] Starky Rubble: Howdy

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[10:54] WhiteStar Magic: Neb... would it be possible to place a link on teh DownLoads webpage for Meerkat ? and TAG it with "NEW Testing ?"

[10:54] Warin Cascabel is Online

[10:54] Starky Rubble: Lotsa new things since I was here last

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya i was thinking maybe we should have a meerkat forum too

[10:55] Starky Rubble: a coupla weeks back i guess

[10:55] Frank.Northmead @meanduland.com:8002 gave you Snapshot : OSGrid Meeting Center, Wright Plaza (139, 138, 21).

[10:55] Charles Krinke is Online

[10:55] WhiteStar Magic: With teh great progress as of late, I think that woudl be an excellent idea

[10:55] Starky Rubble: Hmmm I should take a look at meerkat

[10:55] WhiteStar Magic: and BTW: Simpy is now able to use it quite well on 64bit Win-7

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: ah really?

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: i mean i can run it

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but i have no sound

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: nothing

[10:56] WhiteStar Magic: just the textures are still slow to load

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: no UI sounds or anything

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: and ya slow loading textures

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: and my avatar is all wierd looking

[10:56] WhiteStar Magic: I get sounds

[10:56] Charles Krinke: morning

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya its nothing only sound i get is when i close it

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: it dings

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:56] Starky Rubble: Hi Charles

[10:56] Teravus Ousley is Online

[10:56] Warin Cascabel: I can run it, and I have UI sounds, IIRC, but it crashes like a first-time driver on an icy road after drinking a fifth of vodka.

[10:57] WhiteStar Magic: http://tc.openmv.org/repository/download/bt28/5305:id/Meerkat_0-2-0-206_Nightly_Setup.exe

[10:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hellos!

[10:57] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Solid Black Adelle!

[10:57] Starky Rubble: Hi!

[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: hello

[10:57] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Colourful Adelle!

[10:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: solid black hehe thats a new one

[10:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh

[10:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: :P

[10:57] WhiteStar Magic: every night Adelle

[10:58] Teravus Ousley is Online

[10:58] WhiteStar Magic: un-official releases I guess

[10:58] WhiteStar Magic: but better all teh time

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe hello Teravus

[10:59] Teravus Ousley: Hello :)

[11:00] Kitto Flora: Hello

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: ding dong

[11:00] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Kitto

[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi kitto

[11:00] Teravus Ousley: hallo

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: so hows everyone doing?

[11:00] Catherine Pfeffer: hey teravus !

[11:00] Warin Cascabel: Blurry, apparently.

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: great thanks :)

[11:00] Teravus Ousley: Hello Catherine

[11:01] Kitto Flora: Doing ok - I have new on ODE interface rewrite - working vehicles.

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[11:01] Opensource Obscure: hey everybody

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: you have any patches that we can test?

[11:01] Kitto Flora: Its far from a patch :)

[11:01] Friendly Harbour: hello everyone

[11:02] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Friendly

[11:02] Shaun Emerald: I hate to criticize, but when Adam asked a few of us, last week, for feedback regarding the new login page, etc., more than one of us pointed out that grey text on a grey background, besides looking drab, is very difficult for some of our older eyes to read. Is it going to stay that way? It's kinda ageist. :)

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: no Shaun

[11:02] Kitto Flora: Its like 50% rewite ofthe ODEVehicle source, and also stuff in ODEPrim and ODEplugin, and will need mods in LSL stuff too

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: the loginpage is just temporary

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: not really complete

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: we can certainly adjust it

[11:03] Shaun Emerald: Ok.

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: the website is still going to change drasticly

[11:03] Teravus Ousley: hehe, it makes a difference when according to one article, the average gamer is 35 :)

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: in the weeks to come

[11:03] Bri Hasp is Online

[11:03] Warin Cascabel: Really, Teravus? Huh, surprising.

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i read that article too

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya 35 and sad

[11:03] Kitto Flora: Average WoW player may be 35 )

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: apparently

[11:03] Warin Cascabel: LOL

[11:03] Shaun Emerald: Well, for some of us in our 50s it's hard to read. :)

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: according to the article

[11:03] Teravus Ousley: apparently 35 year olds like to steal cars and shoot things too.

[11:03] Friendly Harbour: 35? ... hmmm ... *thinks back to when he was so young*

[11:04] Kitto Flora: Average SL player is 135?

[11:04] Warin Cascabel: ha

[11:04] WhiteStar Magic: I can go back to 35... sure

[11:04] Shaun Emerald: haha

[11:04] WhiteStar Magic: a Do-Over !

[11:04] Dave Coyle: i guess that makes me the baby

[11:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: im still 21, have been for over 10 years now :P

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:04] Warin Cascabel: LOL Adelle

[11:05] Friendly Harbour: lol

[11:05] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Adelle

[11:05] Dave Coyle: ok, adelle's the baby

[11:05] Friendly Harbour: (typical women)

[11:05] WhiteStar Magic: you will have to "upgrade" that at some point to 21.10

[11:05] Dave Coyle: what's git hash is that?

[11:05] Penny Lane: 'Morning :-)

[11:05] Dave Coyle ducks

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:05] Teravus Ousley: not for at least 100 and one years thought

[11:05] Michelle Argus is Online

[11:06] Charles Krinke: I'll be in the background

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: so Kitto about your physics stuff

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: how can we help test it

[11:06] Kitto Flora: Yes?

[11:06] Kitto Flora: Ah

[11:06] Dave Coyle: so, neb, the bandwidth throttle set on this sim? if so, to what?

[11:06] Kitto Flora: Well testing would be good - but I have no good way to make it accessible

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: 640000 with mutiplier at 2

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: if bill gates says 640ks enough

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: then i beleive em

[11:06] Friendly Harbour: lol

[11:07] Warin Cascabel: Haha

[11:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: im pretty sure the throttle caps it regardless of the multiplier

[11:07] Bri Hasp: Kitto what about a HG enabled standalone?

[11:07] Starky Rubble: I just hit the website and I gotta say it lloks great!!

[11:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: so even if the multiplier was set at 8, it would still throttle to 640k

[11:07] Starky Rubble: *looks

[11:07] Kitto Flora: Isnt that a contradiction?

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: yes but

[11:07] WhiteStar Magic: don't start that Starky

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i think if you set your slider to 200k

[11:07] Starky Rubble: ok

[11:07] Kitto Flora: Or is that a standalong accessible via hypergrid?

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: you would get 400k?

[11:07] Bri Hasp: hehe.. in a semantic way yes

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes Neb

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno i figured id set it at 2

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: upto 640k max

[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: as long it rezz nice and things run smooth its ok

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: give or take 100k or so for the timing of the throttle

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it seemed a bit slow at 500 with 1 multiplier to me

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: here seemed to rez a little slower than normal, but only very slightly

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i keep my slider at 500 though

[11:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i do see more colourful avies this time :)

[11:09] Teravus Ousley: I never quite understood why a multiplier was necessary actually.

[11:09] Warin Cascabel: Seems about the same to me, but my slider's at 250.

[11:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: Teravus, its for using on a LAN

[11:09] Warin Cascabel: I still can't actually bake properly...

[11:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: so you can turn the bandwidth right up

[11:09] Teravus Ousley: Even on a LAN, for the most part, 1500 is too much

[11:10] Dave Coyle: but why would you want to override what the user set?

[11:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: at least thats my impression of it

[11:10] Teravus Ousley: You'd have to have a good LAN :)

[11:10] Teravus Ousley: 10baseT would definately not cut it.

[11:10] Warin Cascabel: Dave: You might want to serve a lower rate than they've asked for, like if you've got limited bandwidth and don't want them soaking it all up.

[11:10] Dave Coyle: if i say "hey, i can only dl 700Kbps", why try to shove down 2x-3x times that?

[11:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: if you are running on a 100Mbps LAN, you could get quite a throughput, provided the sim hardware could process it fast enough

[11:11] Dave Coyle: warin: agreed. but the multiplier is....a multiplier.

[11:11] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya but the communication handles probably cant addelle

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: well, from my understanding the multiplier multiplies the throttle limit

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: handlers

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: opensim is going to barf at some point

[11:11] Friendly Harbour: on a lan 100mbit and 1gb are the norm i would say (actually, i haven't see a 100mbit lan in years)

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if you feed it too much

[11:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: though, since we are talking about it, i think the multiplier should be set to 1 as default in the opensim.ini

[11:11] WhiteStar Magic: +1 Adelle

[11:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think this would benefit a lot of home users

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: .. so.. lets say you set a maximum of 500KBit .. and a Multiplier of 2.. you're actually setting a maximum of 100KBit

[11:11] Dave Coyle: i think the multiplier is silly, honestly.

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: err.. 1000KBit

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya i can set our release for 1

[11:12] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia

[11:12] WhiteStar Magic: I would like to suggest Neb that our release also has teh FlotsamCache use mem to false

[11:12] Teravus Ousley: Hello :)

[11:13] Friendly Harbour: i think the multiplier made sence when we didn't have the option to trottle directly .. now that we can the multiplier could slowly and quietly die (ie be removed from the code)

[11:13] WhiteStar Magic: way too many folks on VPS

[11:13] Penny Lane waves at Dahlia

[11:13] Dave Coyle: but even then the multiplier wasn't a throttle. it was... a multiplier. :)

[11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: the multiplier isnt a throttle, it multiplies the client slider bandwidth

[11:13] Teravus Ousley: Well, I think they're distinct in what they do.

[11:14] Teravus Ousley: The client asks the simulator for some throttle settings

[11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: so if the client is set at 500k, and the multiplier at 2, ithe sim will push 1000k to the client

[11:14] Catherine Pfeffer: Hi Dahlia ;-)

[11:14] Teravus Ousley: .. The simulator sets them... If the multiplier is 2, the simulator sets twice that amount, if the multiplier is 3.. etc..

[11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: right Teravus

[11:14] Friendly Harbour: i just don't understand the point of trying to push more data to the client than the client says it can handle

[11:15] Teravus Ousley: The throttle limits that we are talking about sets the minimum and maximum that the client can request.

[11:15] Penny Lane: Does someone know the reason why there is a multiplier?

[11:15] Bri Hasp is Online

[11:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: i believe it if for LAN sims/client

[11:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: if you have 100Mbps to play with, use some of it

[11:15] Teravus Ousley: Friendly Harbour: yeah, It doesn't really make sense to me either.. justincc claims it makes textures download faster.

[11:16] Penny Lane: Limits make sense. The reason for a multiplier is unknown at this time though, right?

[11:16] Friendly Harbour: i understand it is for lan etc and before we had a way to set the limits in trottle i get it, but now that we can se whatever ... why keep 2 setting to basically to the same thing ... it seems cleaner to me to have 1 setting only

[11:16] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.6 (Dev) git# 465d109 2009-08-18 17:06:14 -0700 (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: I think, the more packets we can keep out of the 'resend' queue, the better. The ResendQueue takes up more resources to manage then the throttle

[11:17] Dave Coyle: oops

[11:17] Dave Coyle: sorry

[11:17] Dahlia Trimble: have people been experimenting with thottle settings?

[11:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes, i have

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya we have

[11:17] Teravus Ousley: A few, people have also been messing with the multiplier

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: all the plazas are using it

[11:17] Bri Hasp is Online

[11:17] Friendly Harbour: what are your results with different mul.settings?

[11:18] WhiteStar Magic: Heya Bri

[11:18] Dahlia Trimble: seems to work well for me but it's not exact, more like an average

[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: in the past i placed multiplier at 1. but since new ini its at default again

[11:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: i used to be on a 768k up connection, and had to set the throttle to 1 for the best result, but since i have 2.5meg up and now set it at 2

[11:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: but since the throttle, i set that at 512k and have a great overall result

[11:19] Teravus Ousley: So, to be clear, the difference between the throttle limits and the multiplier is as follows:. The multiplier changes the throttle settings that the client asks for.. essentially. The Throttle Limits.. limit the maximum and minimum throttle setting that a client can ask for.

[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: Im not sure what multiplier does, it may have been left over from some experimenting once to get throttles working

[11:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: Dahlia, ive noticed it sometimes peak at 700k, but only for a very brief moment, which i put down to cpu/timing etc

[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: Ive noticed that too

[11:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: with the throttle set at 512k

[11:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: but for the most part, say 97% of the time, it honours the throttle

[11:20] Penny Lane: Unless all viewers have throttles (and not all of them do, eg. simple bots might not), it seems like a very bad idea to increase the download above what the client requests.

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: well its not accurate either

[11:20] Teravus Ousley: Bots do have a throttle :)

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:20] Teravus Ousley: The throttle is set really low by default

[11:20] Teravus Ousley: .. (for bots)

[11:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: the problem with the client throttle is that some people ramp it to max because they 'think' they will get a better experience

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: A bot's programming can ask for larger throttles.

[11:21] Penny Lane: Depends on the bot code, I very much doubt that PyOGP has throttling in it yet.

[11:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: Hippo goes upto 8000k, which is really bad for opensim over the internet

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: The simulator also has a very low default throttle

[11:21] Teravus Ousley: .. So, if the bot doesn't ask for throttle settings, they get the default low throttle settings.

[11:22] Teravus Ousley: Heh, yeah, 8000K is bad for most everything :)

[11:22] Baba Sucks: o

[11:22] Penny Lane: Sure, server-side throttling makes sense, but it's the multiplier that is questionable. If a client asks for X, shouldn't force more on it.

[11:22] Baba Sucks: i'm back

[11:22] Shaun Emerald: Btw, I made a suggestion in the MK irc channel. Was wondering what others thought of it. The various grids like different BW settings. I suggested making it a per-grid setting instead of global.

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: heh welcome back baba

[11:23] Baba Sucks: is this still the Meerkat Meeting?

[11:23] Shaun Emerald: heh

[11:23] Penny Lane: Hiya Baba

[11:23] Baba Sucks: you know we're having one of those on thursday?

[11:23] Penny Lane: Cool!

[11:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont think that would work on OSGrid, where there are a mix of hosted and home sims

[11:23] Teravus Ousley: I'm of the same mind as Penny on this issue.. but, I'm willing to give it a testing chance :)

[11:23] Baba Sucks: right here

[11:23] Kitto Flora recovers

[11:23] Dave Coyle: shaun: i have the same bandwidth available to me regardless of what grid i'm logged into. :)

[11:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: though if there was a global grid controlled override, that could work, as long as you had the option to turn it off and let the sims control their own

[11:24] Teravus Ousley: The client uses packet loss to ajust the throttles it asks for.

[11:24] Hiro Protagonist is Online

[11:24] Shaun Emerald: I was meaning tht setting it in the viewer in each grid definition might be better than one global setting for all grids

[11:24] Teravus Ousley: .. I think the thing that people have noticed, however, is that sometimes the client doesn't adjust them fast enough.

[11:24] Penny Lane: Baba: your SVN 0.2 seems to work fine on Linux, just a few minor things fixed during compile. Not too many crashes. I'm running it now.

[11:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: is ther throttle controlled by the client or the simulator? the actual throttle itself

[11:25] Dave Coyle: shaun: i know what you mean. what i'm saying is this overriding of client settings by using sim multipliers is broken, conceptually.

[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: the simulator controls how fast packets are sent

[11:25] Shaun Emerald: Ok. It's just that when I go to different grids I have to remember to change the setting all the time.

[11:26] Shaun Emerald: Thought it might be a ways to set it per grid is all.

[11:26] Teravus Ousley: the actual throttle is controlled by the Server.. but is 'supposed' to give control to the client by respecting the throttle limits that the client asks for.

[11:26] Dave Coyle: ...and then multiplying that, yes?

[11:26] Teravus Ousley: I'm not sure that 'multiplying' is anything but a hack really :)

[11:26] Penny Lane: Baba's yoyoing :-(

[11:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: got it, so the client asks for X bandwidth, then the simulator does the legwork

[11:26] Baba Sucks: I'm back in a better viewer.. Meerkat is so terrible ;)

[11:27] Dave Coyle: haha

[11:27] Baba Sucks: found a bug in font rendering though

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: right, Adelle :)

[11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol baba

[11:27] Penny Lane: Baba: your SVN 0.2 seems to work fine on Linux, just a few minor things fixed during compile. Not too many crashes. I'm running it now.

[11:27] Baba Sucks: no time to fix while in the meeting

[11:27] Penny Lane: Yeah, crashes a bit, lol

[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: I'm pretty sure the multiplier was there for characterizing the throttle messages from the viewer, there was once ambiguity about the messages meaning

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: If that wasn't the case, then the simulator would send out more UDP packets then the network interface could support.. and many would be dropped

[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: Justin would probably know more

[11:27] Penny Lane: You have to cross your fingers when you TP :-)

[11:27] Bri Hasp: don't type rezplat

[11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: ok, so now we have an overall throttle in opensim, could the multiplier be removed?

[11:28] Dahlia Trimble: rezplat

[11:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: it seems silly to have both

[11:28] Dahlia Trimble: I wouldnt use the multiplier

[11:28] Friendly Harbour: that is what i asked adelle

[11:28] Bri Hasp: meerkat joke

[11:28] Teravus Ousley: Adelle: I would wait.. probably until we have heuristic simulator side adjustment

[11:28] Adelle Fitzgerald nods

[11:28] Friendly Harbour: although the easiest for now is simply to set the multiplier to 1 as default

[11:28] Dave Coyle: i'll send an email to -dev on the topic if we think people who aren't here might know more of the history behind this

[11:28] Teravus Ousley: Right.

[11:28] Baba Sucks: so I was saying.. I don't think we will ever set grid specific bandwidth in the viewer. If opensim is having an issue then opensim needs to correct it

[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: I would just comment out the multipliler

[11:29] Friendly Harbour: if you comment it out you get 2 as default

[11:29] Baba Sucks: i would just ignore it if it exceeds a safe level for your setup

[11:29] Friendly Harbour: (i think)

[11:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: kk Dahlia, ill have a go with that, see what happens

[11:29] Teravus Ousley: :) Baba, it isn't really an issue. Just discussion.

[11:29] Baba Sucks: ter, wanna fight about it?

[11:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[11:29] Friendly Harbour: lol

[11:30] WhiteStar Magic: what's athta sheild command again for the viewer ?

[11:30] Teravus Ousley: Baba, if you send a request for a specific throttle setting from Meercat, what would you expect the simulator to do? :)

[11:30] Penny Lane: The problem is that nobody seems to know the reason for the multipler. Unless someone can see a good reason to ignore the value requested by the client, it doesn't seem to have a purpose.

[11:30] Hiro Protagonist: mudwrasslin' would be more fun to watch :P

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:31] Baba Sucks: respect it until it can't handle it anymore and then fall back to something more sane

[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: Penny the multiplier is there to help characterize the throttle messages from the viewer

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: You wouldn't expect the simulator to double your requested throttle settings? :D

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: luls

[11:31] Penny Lane: Dahlia: characterise?

[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: there was once ambiguity in definition of the messages

[11:32] Teravus Ousley: (that's what the multiplier does, .. multiplies the client's requested throttle settings)

[11:32] Baba Sucks: I run my bandwidth setting at 5000 ;)

[11:32] Baba Sucks: try and double it

[11:32] Teravus Ousley: I, personally.. think that idea is inherently broken :)

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: heh no wonder your crashing every 10 seconds

[11:33] Warin Cascabel: LOL

[11:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: Baba, thats nuts

[11:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: i run mine at 500k and i thought i was pushing it at that

[11:33] Hiro Protagonist notices an increasing pile of legs gathering at baba's feet

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: its useless to, tried it once in sl. because someone told me he used it to. but it makes complete no sense

[11:33] Teravus Ousley: It won't really take effect here though.. Here is set at max 650KB

[11:33] WhiteStar Magic: I run at 400 and suggest that to everyone to fix several issues

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: SL 1500 osgrid 500

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya shouldnt matter

[11:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: i will drop to 250-350k if i have lots of packet loss

[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: mine is at 2500 because I was testing the throttle limit :)

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: though the multiplier is on 2

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: So, Baba's throttles are effectively scaled down proportionally to 650KB

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: but not everyone is using the throttle yet

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: Here's where the multiplier and the maximum throttle settings interact

[11:35] Teravus Ousley: .. If the throttle asked for is double 5000 and the max Throttle KB is 650 and the multiplier is 2, what happens?

[11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: it tries to stick to 650k

[11:35] Dave Coyle: 42?

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:35] Shaun Emerald: lol

[11:35] Teravus Ousley: My guess.. the request is 5000.. so it's scaled down to 650, then doubled to 1300

[11:35] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Dave

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: exactly dave

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: lolwut

[11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: no, i dont think so Ter, i think the throttle is after the multiplier

[11:36] Adelle Fitzgerald: though i would have to test more

[11:36] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[11:36] Teravus Ousley: The maximum throttle settings Except for the overall throttle max only get checked really when the client request to set the throttles comes in.

[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: Bah! crashed :(

[11:37] Starky Rubble: are we in agreement that the default multiplier should be changed to one?

[11:37] Baba Sucks: Ok, it should be the viewer's job to get what it wants as fast as possible.. it should be the sims job to send that data as fast as it can without impacting other users

[11:37] WhiteStar Magic: +1 for setting to 1 by default

[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: +1

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno when i had this region on 1 with 640000 limit

[11:37] Dave Coyle: forget defaults, remove it

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it felt slow

[11:37] Warin Cascabel: *1

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but for home based regions its probably wise

[11:37] Penny Lane: If Dahlia's explanation is the right one (and it's the only explantion we have at the moment), then the throttle comes BEFORE the multiplier because the reason for the multiplier is to test the client's throttle setting --- characterize the link. Ie. it's for debug or testing.

[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: I think the multiplier shoud be removed, but I'd ask Justin to do it

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i guess i could increase the limit a bit

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and set it to 1

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: nah, justincc says it makes texture downloading faster.

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: So, that's the reason that it's in there specifically.

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: It is not for testing :)

[11:38] Penny Lane: Well sure it would make download faster to raise the rate ... but it's purposely ignoring the rate chosen by the client.

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: Right Penny :)

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: Here's the sticky on it though.

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: The client requests 6 individual throttles

[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: well there was once the ambiguity about whether the throttle messages were specifying bits or bytes, and I recall that was when justin added the multiplier

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: One for each type of data.

[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: it may have newer uses since then

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: :)

[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: I thought everyone gave up on what the throttle meant anyway. It certainly never complies to anything it says in SL

[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm

[11:40] Teravus Ousley: So.. The texture download throttle limit could be reached.. and you're still only using 1/3rd of the speed that could be used.

[11:40] WhiteStar Magic: but SL is a Homogebous platforms and OpenSim is not

[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[11:41] WhiteStar Magic: *Homogenous

[11:41] Penny Lane: Gibbons in SL? That explains a lot

[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: there is code in opensim to adjust individual throttles based on the overall throttle limit

[11:41] Warin Cascabel: Gibbons? In my SL? (It's more likely than you think.)

[11:41] Starky Rubble: If we can be happy with it at 1 for a while it would enable discussing removing it entirely later

[11:41] Penny Lane chuckles

[11:41] Hiro Protagonist: lol Penny

[11:41] Shaun Emerald: Off-topic: Can we ever go into space with OS? Stop being planet bound?

[11:41] Teravus Ousley: I agree, for the most part opensim should respect the throttles. But.. If it respects exactly what the client says, then the simulator definately won't be using the maximum bandwidth that it could be using.

[11:41] Penny Lane: Hiya Hiro

[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: You mean like go up far enough and you're in space?

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i would think thats more viewer related

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: that simulator related

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: than*

[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, it's a viewer thing.

[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: it does rexpct them, it just caps them :)

[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: 10,000m isnt enough?

[11:42] Hiro Protagonist: hey Penny *wink*

[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: *respect

[11:42] Shaun Emerald: Like have a spaceship flying around the void and meet other spaceships from other space grids

[11:42] Shaun Emerald: No planet

[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: does someone have seen the crash "cannot read from stream" under linux ?

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: the planets flat i tells ya

[11:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: lol

[11:43] Starky Rubble: hee

[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:43] Shaun Emerald: lol

[11:43] Friendly Harbour: lol

[11:43] Teravus Ousley: Think of the throttles like.. your network slider divided by 6.. but not evenly

[11:43] Hiro Protagonist: lol

[11:43] WhiteStar Magic: flkat & square in multiples of 256x256

[11:43] Penny Lane: World topology depends on beverage.

[11:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: ok, whilst we are talking about networking/throttles, has anyone played with tuning the MTU?

[11:43] Shaun Emerald: lol Penny

[11:43] Catherine Pfeffer: space is less empty when all people are on a surface ;-).

[11:43] Teravus Ousley: For example, the client will routinely request more bandwidth for objects and less for wind type data

[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: I've seen a lot of problems if the MTU is too high, like over 1300 I think

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: I have too Dahlia :). Routers drop too many UDP packets.. and UDP Packets that are too large.

[11:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: you can actually work out the maximum MTU for yout internet connection, mine is 1472

[11:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: though i dont know if it really had any effect

[11:45] Teravus Ousley: SBC Global, drops about 10% of udp packets randomly :D

[11:45] Teravus Ousley: just because it can :)

[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: hmm what is the default opensim.ini set to ?

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: gee, nice, since I use SBC global networks :s

[11:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: i would like to 'think' it did ;)

[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: 1492 I believe

[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: I think there is some overhead, so 1472 is too high

[11:45] WhiteStar Magic: default OSG OpenSim.ini sets MTU @ 1400

[11:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: the default is 1400

[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah

[11:45] Starky Rubble: yep 1400

[11:46] Catherine Pfeffer: 1472 here too

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: 1400 a bit weird maby on 1000Mbit network. but it works

[11:46] Baba Sucks: UDP is a major problem when it comes to sane throttling

[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: set it too high and packets are lost which may not be recoverable

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: 100Mbit

[11:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: i can post some instruction on the dev mailing list on how to find your max MTU if anyone wants to play with it?

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is especially so over long distances

[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: there is additional overhead, the setting is misleading

[11:46] Friendly Harbour: i don't know if it's a coinsidence, but ever since going from UGAIM to ROBUST on my own grid i have had serious problems with texture downloading ... now i did a restart of all the regions, but with the throttle set to 1 instead of the default 2 and now the textures work! yay!! *big smile*

[11:47] Baba Sucks: I might request 500kbit from the depths of europe but it wont make it here

[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: i would say ifconfig

[11:47] Baba Sucks: i'll have 2 out of 10 packets

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: Adelle, talk to Adam Frisby about MTU settings

[11:47] Teravus Ousley: Yep, normally the client says.. : woah!.. Lost too many packets.. 'Tightening throttle'.. (you see this on the Debug Console)

[11:48] Shaun Emerald: where is this throttle setting?

[11:48] Adelle Fitzgerald: on an MTU of 1500, most ethernet networks the MTU is 1500, there is an overhead of 28, making the optimum 1472

[11:48] Teravus Ousley: The client's network throttle, or the Simulator throttle stuff?

[11:48] Shaun Emerald: OS

[11:48] Nas Messing is Online

[11:48] Shaun Emerald: the 640 thing

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: Adelle, I think there is additional overhead not accounted for in the OpenSim.ini setting

[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: there is a way to actually test for fragmented packets, but my test will only test TCP, not UDP

[11:49] Teravus Ousley: Dahlia, is that still in in the PacketThrottle CS file.. or did that make it to an OpenSim.ini configuration option?

[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: ok, I'll talk to Adam when I get chance

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: the throttle cap? it's in the ini file now

[11:49] Teravus Ousley: cool :)

[11:49] Shaun Emerald: hmm

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: Is it the overall throttle cap, or is there one for each type?

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: just the overall cap

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: ahh

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: the plumbing wasn't pretty to get it there :/

[11:50] Shaun Emerald: I only see the multipler throttle

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: heh, I bet.

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble is not OOP's biggest fan

[11:51] Shaun Emerald: is it not called throttle?

[11:51] Dave Coyle: shaun: client_throttle_max_bps

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: Well, then.. one way to have textures download fast is to manage it so that the ini can control the texture maximum separately as well as the overall

[11:51] Shaun Emerald: not in my ini

[11:51] Dave Coyle: then you're is out of date

[11:51] Friendly Harbour: you need a newer version

[11:51] Adelle Fitzgerald: you probably need to compare your ini with the example

[11:51] Dave Coyle: s/you're/yours/

[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: are textures loading slower?

[11:51] Starky Rubble: use current ini

[11:52] Teravus Ousley: Some claim that a 1 multiplier setting causes textures to download slow

[11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: not everyone actually checks the opensim.ini.example when they upgrade :-/

[11:52] Friendly Harbour: as i just said a few mins ago, reducing the multiplier from 2 to 1 cured all the texture problems i have been having on my grid

[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: if you dont set it explicitly there shouldnt be much difference

[11:53] Shaun Emerald: I always compare my ini to the example, but I missed that somehow. Hmm.

[11:53] Shaun Emerald: is it recent?

[11:53] Penny Lane: The sweet spot where you get most UDP throughput for a given typical backbone UDP drop rate is probably a lot lower than the MTU size. I used to configure backbone routers but don't recall any research paper on that. Maybe Diva might know.

[11:53] Teravus Ousley: The client generally asks for 6 individual bandwidth throttles for 6 types of data

[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: Shaun maybe 5 days ago

[11:53] Shaun Emerald: ah

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: The maximum throttle going out, is just a result of adding those together. :)

[11:54] Starky Rubble: If someone is unhappy with the multiplier at one they can up their throttle to compensate

[11:54] WhiteStar Magic: i's worth a live trial to see the end result on teh different clinets

[11:54] WhiteStar Magic: *clients

[11:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: ok, so for now, instead of removing the multiplier, is it possible to have it commented out in the opensim.ini.example?

[11:55] Starky Rubble: no - set it to one.... it has a better effect

[11:55] WhiteStar Magic: Pre r7113, this setting was not exposed but was effectively 8. You may want to try this if you encounter ; unexpected difficulties client_throttle_multiplier = 2;

[11:55] Teravus Ousley: I guess the real discussion here is.. is it OK to swing the balance of the network over to texture downloading. As I said.. think of the client network throttle as 'what you set' divided by 6

[11:55] Dahlia Trimble: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commitdiff&p=opensim&h=465d1095dd0dd5c4c5231a81bb69e46a21f290fb

[11:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: most people that use opensim 'out of the box' will ahve it set at 2, so if commenting it out reverts it to 1 that would be better, no?

[11:56] Friendly Harbour: a little OT (but not much): is there a new version coming to the osgrid webpage for downloading?

[11:56] Teravus Ousley: So, if you give more prevelance to the Texture data type in that network throttle, then more of the available bandwidth goes to downloading textures.

[11:56] Starky Rubble: I think we were talking about the default ini file

[11:56] Teravus Ousley: Texture is just 1 of the 6 throttle types :)

[11:56] Friendly Harbour: lately i have had to use the precompiled binaries there for testing and the throttle stuff isn't in the version on the web

[11:56] Friendly Harbour: (i think)

[11:57] Shaun Emerald: heh, that throttle was all I was missing

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: another one is essentially 'Objects and avatar'. Another is Inventory, another is Land Data.. another is Wind Data,... and another is 'Resend'

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: sorry, RL, got to go. I'll be in IRC later

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: k

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: take care :)

[11:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Dahlia

[11:58] Friendly Harbour: bye dahlia

[11:58] Dahlia Trimble is Offline

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: is the inventory load problem fixt or do i have a setting wrong ?

[11:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: something else OT, would it be possible to have an 'appear offline' feature if Baba could also put the code in his viewer?

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: your inventory isnt loading?

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: it loads fine. but i stioll need to trigger loading at my sims sometimes

[11:59] Teravus Ousley: :) Interesting. I'd be interested in having an 'Appear Offline' feature.

[11:59] Teravus Ousley: Isn't it almost already implemented with the permissions?

[11:59] WhiteStar Magic: same here... have to kick it over withteh alphabet walk sometimes

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: so it sounds not a config problem at my side

[12:00] Teravus Ousley: The essentially result of 'appear offline' is 'uncheck all of the can view me online but remember the way that I have them set'

[12:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: do they work? i didnt think they were implemented?

[12:01] Teravus Ousley: I don't think they are implemented, no. :) But maybe that could be something that someone works on soon as a result of this?

[12:01] WhiteStar Magic: Baba ... is there a MeerKat grou in here yet ?

[12:01] Baba Sucks: I forgot to created it

[12:01] Baba Sucks: doing

[12:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:01] Teravus Ousley: :)

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: lol baba :)

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: I gotta run y'all - shower time and back to work

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: thanks for the meet :)

[12:02] Baba Sucks: group Meerkat Viewer

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist waves

[12:02] Starky Rubble: bye

[12:03] WhiteStar Magic: The latest Binarry from OSG has been working pretty well teh crossings are much better and things are generally not bad....

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: yeah, meeting is 'officially' over.. as we're 2 minutes over.

[12:03] Baba Sucks: anyone who is interested in meerkat join us on thursday right here

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: so, in effect, if somone implemented the appear offline per friend, then baba could in theory add a global appear offline to his viewer

[12:03] Baba Sucks: same time as this meeting

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: :)

[12:03] Hiro Protagonist joins the OFFICIAL Meerkat Viewer group on the way out

[12:04] Teravus Ousley: Well, maybe baba wants to implement it another way. :)

[12:04] Hiro Protagonist waves See Y'all :D

[12:04] Baba Sucks: i put cookies in the charter for new members

[12:04] Shaun Emerald: Notice we didn;t crash this week? :)

[12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Hiro

[12:04] Hiro Protagonist is Offline

[12:04] Shaun Emerald: And I didn't crash once either.

[12:04] Shaun Emerald: Yay

[12:04] Teravus Ousley: But, that would probably be pretty simple to do the way I suggested.

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya great meeting

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt crash either

[12:04] Baba Sucks: i crashed constantly

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: I can't joing form teh MK Viewer

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: brings up SL Groups

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: Grrrr

[12:04] Shaun Emerald: lol

[12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: Baba, dont use that Meerkat viewer, it sucks yanno :P

[12:05] Baba Sucks: i hear that

[12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: ;)

[12:05] Baba Sucks: this is that random crash that just ended without even a crash log

[12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: i did actually have great success with it on my crappy lappy, but a horrible time with it on my main comp

[12:05] Charles Krinke is Offline

[12:05] Baba Sucks: i got a log in the debug viewer

[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: im suprised that people can run nit. its crashing already at startup here

[12:06] Teravus Ousley: :) Hopefully, I clarified a few things about how the throttle works during this meeting :)

[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: yep :), thanks :)

[12:06] Baba Sucks: Richardus, what crashed?

[12:06] Penny Lane: It says "Open Enrollment", but Join is greyed out for that group

[12:06] WhiteStar Magic: Baba can you invite me into teh group please

[12:06] Teravus Ousley: posed a few questions.. and pointed out some things that can be done to potentially improve it.

[12:06] Shaun Emerald: I joined it just fine

[12:06] Shaun Emerald: from Hippo

[12:06] Baba Sucks: if you want in friend me

[12:06] WhiteStar Magic: I'm in MK and get only SL Group Listings

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: thanks Baba

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: nooo

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: crash?

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: doh

[12:07] Teravus Ousley: thanks :)

[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: meerkat, it freeze at startup here

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: wow

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: heh recovery

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i frozed too

[12:08] Baba Sucks: richard, platform?

[12:08] WhiteStar Magic: That's another fix for MK... Search Engine choices

[12:08] Shaun Emerald: it won't activate though. hmm

[12:08] Shaun Emerald: haha

[12:08] Shaun Emerald: I had to shoot my mouth off about not crashing ...

[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: vista 64bit

[12:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: all my chat then came out in reverse order lol

[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: waiting fro win7

[12:08] Baba Sucks: our 64 bit support is a little non existant

[12:08] Penny Lane: It could be a Snowglobe problem. I got the grop listing fine, but the group info panel had no join button

[12:08] Baba Sucks: if it works you are blessed

[12:08] Starky Rubble: It's been grand Folks! see you all later

[12:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Starky

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hehe see ya starky

[12:08] Shaun Emerald: ok, that was weird

[12:08] Baba Sucks: i'm moving to win 7 64

[12:08] Baba Sucks: in 2 weeks

[12:08] Penny Lane: Cya Starky

[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: 32bit is this days so useless :)

[12:08] Baba Sucks: once i move it will be my only windows box

[12:09] Baba Sucks: and then meerkat will work ;)

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol nice

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: heh, at least we're down in threads compared to what we were before :) yay

[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: i have ordered the free win7 yupgrade. nevermber it comes

[12:09] Shaun Emerald: Get a Mac dev, Baba :)

[12:09] Kitto Flora outta time, gotta go

[12:09] sim core: See-you, starky

[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: have the version with xp support

[12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: Baba, just make it work on 32bit too ;)

[12:09] Baba Sucks: Shaun, learn to program on mac

[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye kitto

[12:09] Shaun Emerald: lol

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:09] WhiteStar Magic: See ya Kitto & Starky

[12:09] Teravus Ousley D

[12:09] Friendly Harbour: guess i could upgrade to win7 (on xp now) ... just got a message from microsoft today saying win7 is ready for download :)

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: see ya kitto

[12:09] Teravus Ousley whispers: See ya :)

[12:10] Teravus Ousley: See ya :)

[12:10] Penny Lane: Cya Kitto

[12:10] Baba Sucks: anyone else want to join meerkat viewer group?

[12:10] Baba Sucks: send me a friend request

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i joined

[12:10] Baba Sucks: good good

[12:10] Shaun Emerald: I joined without the need for an invite. Did you change it?

[12:10] Richardus Raymaker: on in osgird. always welcome

[12:10] WhiteStar Magic: http://jira.openmetaverse.org/browse/MEER-139 Teravius, you might be interested in this

[12:10] Baba Sucks: shaun, some people had issues

[12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think the server was just a bit tied up with everyone all clicking the same button at once

[12:10] Friendly Harbour joined

[12:10] Baba Sucks: i am too lazy to type names

[12:10] WhiteStar Magic: Diva had a look at it and thought it could be done as well

[12:11] Baba Sucks: so calling cards make it easy ;)

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: Thanks WhiteStar :)

[12:11] WhiteStar Magic: and one other items of interest

[12:11] Baba Sucks: i'll be setting up cool titles soon

[12:11] WhiteStar Magic: now that SL is talking about Collada Mesh Support, what are teh OS plans ? if Any ??

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: How about transferring of WindLight settings? :)

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: That would be pretty snazzy :)

[12:12] Penny Lane: Who's doing the Linux release Baba?

[12:12] Baba Sucks: how about big sims

[12:12] Baba Sucks: I am

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: Baba, i want a better title than everyone else, ok?

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: I'm working on that. :)

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: :P

[12:12] Baba Sucks: in about a day

[12:12] Penny Lane: Cool!

[12:12] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Adelle

[12:12] Friendly Harbour: "Collada Mesh Support"?? what is that? *confused*

[12:12] sim core: Big sims sounds great, baba

[12:12] Baba Sucks: ter, what do you we need to do on the client?

[12:12] WhiteStar Magic: http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/linden-lab-offically-announces-mesh-support-in-second-life-at-slcc

[12:12] Baba Sucks: i dont want to have dumb sim borders

[12:13] Teravus Ousley: The client has this thing called 'RegionHandle' thats probably baked in pretty deep.

[12:13] Penny Lane: Will be nice to have meshes at last, been asking them for it for years.

[12:13] WhiteStar Magic: and with Server 3 support for C# in SL things are heating up big time

[12:13] Friendly Harbour: ah i see :) thanks whitestar :)

[12:13] Baba Sucks: ter, we'll dig that sucker out

[12:13] Warin Cascabel: Gotta run, bye all!

[12:13] WhiteStar Magic: see ya Warin

[12:13] Penny Lane: Cya Warrin

[12:14] sim core: See-you, warin

[12:14] Teravus Ousley: Technically larger and smaller regions will work in the Simulator right now.. The client doesn't really support it.

[12:14] Baba Sucks: i'm more asking what do you want to do on the protocol?

[12:14] Baba Sucks: do we need a change or is there a way to define region size?

[12:14] Bri Hasp is Offline

[12:15] Teravus Ousley: So far, the CourseLocationUpdate is an issue.. and it would be nice to have some kind of info about the region size.. somewhere. Maybe the region handshake? or maybe the EnableSimulator EventQueue message or something like that.

[12:16] Richardus Raymaker: does it make fly / verhicles beter if you have 1 big region ?

[12:16] WhiteStar Magic: <--- Get's out Trust old Rusty Can Opener for the job

[12:16] Teravus Ousley: CourseLocationUpdate uses Bytes for X, Y and Z position.

[12:16] Teravus Ousley: This makes it 0-255

[12:16] Baba Sucks: do you want to set up a test sim/grid where we can work this out?

[12:16] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.6 (Dev) git# 465d109 2009-08-18 17:06:14 -0700 (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True

[12:16] Teravus Ousley: Ok, I can do that.

[12:17] Richardus Raymaker: hmm integer or better longint would be nice

[12:17] Warin Cascabel is Online

[12:17] Teravus Ousley: I'm also working on a 'region virtualization layer' that will have larger regions supported and translated conseptually to the client as multiple regions.

[12:18] Warin Cascabel is Online

[12:19] Teravus Ousley: I've actually got the Region Virtualization layer working *with bugs* on my local instance. There are just some things that I don't like about how it's implemented right now.

[12:19] sim core: Sounds good

[12:19] Baba Sucks: oh that's nice

[12:20] Baba Sucks: title length is capped by the viewer but the grid will gladly set a default title of >

[12:20] Teravus Ousley: I'll put up a demo of what I have right now at some point today.

[12:20] Friendly Harbour: anyone working on a way to transfer oar's from a 256x256 region to a larger one? or will we have to have 1 oar for each region size?

[12:20] t an: Ter, interesting.I've been thinking a little of what we should do with regions in realxtend perhaps .. the new viewer doesn't have multiregion support yet, and in the long run we probably don't want to have fixed 256x256 regions

[12:20] Teravus Ousley: ultimately, we probably want to throw that 256x256 limit out the window.

[12:21] t an: Ter, for example MXP works so that the protocol and the viewer don't know about regions .. servers can partition the space however they want

[12:21] Teravus Ousley: Currently, regions support larger and smaller spaces

[12:21] Teravus Ousley: You simply need to change Constants.cs and Constants.RegionSize in it.

[12:21] Teravus Ousley: But the Linden client doesn't like it very much.

[12:22] t an: ok good to know

[12:22] Baba Sucks: that's actually interesting... no concept of regions

[12:22] Teravus Ousley: I've gotten it to where the linden client won't crash.. but it won't be happy either.

[12:22] Baba Sucks: just the local terrain

[12:23] WhiteStar Magic: I have to ask though... how would this affect interop with MK & SL

[12:23] Baba Sucks: a global coordinate

[12:23] Teravus Ousley: WhiteStar Magic: It probably won't

[12:23] WhiteStar Magic: will they have to brach for OpenSim ?

[12:23] Baba Sucks: we would do fallback if there was a protocol change

[12:23] t an: Baba, in MXP there is the 'bubble', the sphere of perception for that client, that can be scaled as needed .. and servers take care that they can communicate the stuff that's nside the bubble ofthat client, for tha clien

[12:23] Baba Sucks: I like that

[12:23] WhiteStar Magic: because the OSSL fuunctions are now in teh editor and other OS unique things... it's gonna show up weird in SL

[12:24] Baba Sucks: we should really discuss the model for space before we go off and start hacking away

[12:24] t an: Whitestar, opensim can deal with different clients, speak different protocol to different clients, no need for branches as long as the core can support all those different clientviews

[12:25] Baba Sucks: whitestar, i dont care about SL

[12:25] Teravus Ousley: Currently the region virtualization layer works on the basis of arbitrary 'Borders'

[12:25] WhiteStar Magic: I am teh LEAST Worried abpout SL

[12:25] Richardus Raymaker: but how do you solve the problem if a viewer cannot handle bigger region ?

[12:25] Simpy Merryman is Online

[12:25] Teravus Ousley: There are some issues that I'm running into with that though.

[12:25] WhiteStar Magic: but devils advocate as too many whine about interrop with them

[12:25] Baba Sucks: I like Ter's virtualized sims

[12:25] Baba Sucks: its a good backup

[12:26] Friendly Harbour: one thing that would be great moving forwards is to be able to have more control over the land surface (texture)

[12:26] Shaun Emerald: yes!

[12:26] Richardus Raymaker: yes, more detailed textures would be nice to 512x512 is problematic sometimes

[12:26] Teravus Ousley: :) The CourseLocationUpdate issue forces me to do some things that I'd prefer not to do though.

[12:26] Friendly Harbour: being able to "draw" on the ground to make paths etc rather than having to use prims

[12:26] Richardus Raymaker: and some like to make tunnels. is usefull

[12:26] Richardus Raymaker: nice idea

[12:26] Shaun Emerald: yes, I can't make a tunnel

[12:27] Shaun Emerald: I tried

[12:27] Shaun Emerald: :(

[12:27] WhiteStar Magic: freindly... look at the link I gave earlier for meer

[12:27] Friendly Harbour: the ground is only 2d so no tunnel is possible

[12:27] Baba Sucks: I would rather we just had massive 3d space but that's a little ways off

[12:27] WhiteStar Magic: Sky,Water,Cloud cover controls

[12:27] Simpy Merryman: Hi Guys :)

[12:27] Warin Cascabel is Offline