Chat log from the meeting on 2010-08-10

[09:56] Penny Lane is Online [09:56] Penny Lane is Online [09:57] Nebadon Izumi: hello [09:59] Hiro Protagonist: Hi Penny :) [10:00]  Master Dubrovna: Hi everyone [10:00]  Hiro Protagonist: Hello Mr. D [10:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi [10:00]  Hiro Protagonist: Rira :) [10:00] Richardus Raymaker: hiro [10:01] Penny Lane waves and heads for the coffee [10:01] Hiro Protagonist: heehee, I opted for an energy shot ftw [10:01] Hiro Protagonist: cutting into my siesta hour lol [10:02] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [10:03] Hiro Protagonist: I got a new desk fan, so I no longer have the excuse it's too hot [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: Hi justin [10:03] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Justin :) [10:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello gentlepeople [10:05]  Snoopy Pfeffer is Online [10:05]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all :) [10:05] Dave Coyle is Online [10:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow not many ppl today [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi snoopy [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, seems to be like that right now. perhaps due to summer [10:06] Richardus Raymaker:, still vacation time [10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes true [10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: I had a look at the email module [10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: it looks like receiving emails is not implemented yet [10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: right? [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: I think there's some problem with remote admin. [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: don't know [10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well there is no code that requests emails from the mail server [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: need to keep eye on it. but it seems when you shutdown it goed in some loop and then dont accept shutdown. or the region where already crashed to much [10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: just sending is implemented [10:07] Penny Lane: Hey Dahlia :-) [10:07]  Dave Coyle is Online [10:07]  Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Dahlia [10:07] Chikura Ciaco: hi all [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: hello [10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Rich crashed regions sometimes cannot be restarted using remote admin [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: thats bad [10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: worst case you have to kill the process [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: youi get some error about filename. need to search it back in log then [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: that happend tonigh snoopy [10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: k [10:09]  Chikura Ciaco: can someone tell me why i cant delete my Trash folder? [10:09] Dave Coyle is Online [10:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Have you ever been able to delete the trash folder? [10:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow true I experience the same [10:09] Chikura Ciaco: nope [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: its disabled for now. else it deletes more then you want [10:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: is it? [10:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If you delete the tarsh bin, where do items you delete later on go to? [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: strange things seems to happen. thats why its disabled [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: we send then to a black hole andrew [10:11] Chikura Ciaco: so i cant actually del. my trash :) [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello, sorry was afk from this computer [10:11]  Penny Lane: Does anyone know whether Revolution Smythe succeeded in his sim mods last week to work with viewer object caching? [10:11]  Snoopy Pfeffer: wb Neb [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: had to get jhurliman some data [10:11]  Richardus Raymaker: wb neb [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: Neb, a question: how to you check for 0 fps from outside? [10:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: From the sound of it I thought Revolution had completed them, but maybe not [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we use Monit [10:12]  Richardus Raymaker: use json snoopy [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: me too [10:12]  Penny Lane: JCC: cool, hopeso [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use the remote admin function Neb? [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a blog post dave wrote some where [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: health status? [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: cool [10:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: do you have the url? [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: what blog ? [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: http://coyled.com/ [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: yes, ofcorse i solved it different [10:13] Dave Coyle: http://coyled.com/2010/07/07/monit-and-opensim/ [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: nothimng new in that blog [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: oh hey dave [10:13] Dave Coyle: hi [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: everyone stop talking bad about dave now [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm that info is old [10:14] Dave Coyle: hehe [10:14] Dave Coyle: no it's not [10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [10:14] Richardus Raymaker: onoly the console port is used. that never worked for me [10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: well that does not catch all crashes [10:14] Dave Coyle: we're using it on some of the plazas [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya Lbsa uses it [10:14]  Dahlia Trimble: oops sorry gotta run... bye all :) [10:14] Richardus Raymaker: console port seems not to be remote admin. i never got a clear answhere about that [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya Dahlia [10:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia, thanks for the 15 minutes :) [10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Dahlia [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: you have to set the remote admin port [10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: well there is a remote admin function to check the health status of a region [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: but monit doesnt monitor remote admin port [10:15] Richardus Raymaker: i hope 0.7 have a seperate remote admin port. remote console is not really usefull for now. [10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus it already does have a seperate port [10:15] Frank Northmead is Online [10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: but that remote admin port responds if there is a 0 fps crash [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: even in 0.6.9 [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: have you considered getting the region stats over json? [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: we are Justin [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: i never found a working remote admin port, seperate [10:16] Dave Coyle: that post explains how we detect 0 fps. doesn't require remote admin. [10:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: a 0 fps add could be added to the health check remote admin function [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: so, tell me later how to set remote admin port [10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I have 0 fps crashes your scripts would not detect [10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: I see the rules [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: under [Network] [10:17] Dave Coyle: such as? [10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok I see [10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ConsoleUser = "Test" ConsolePass = "secret" http_listener_port = 9000 console_port = 0 default_location_x = 1000 default_location_y = 1000 [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: console_port = 0 [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: under network i only see console port [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: you set the port there [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: tried that once, i will try again, but it seems remote admin dont worked on that port set [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ah Remote Admin is something else [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: we dont use that do we Dave? [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: have you used Melanie's remote console? [10:19] Dave Coyle: i've never used it [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the GUI is a bit slow [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the command line one works great [10:19] Dave Coyle: justin: yes, we use it on a bunch of plazas [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: console is not really needed, i need a secure remote admin port. just seperate port number is enough [10:19] Dave Coyle: well, the rest console, if you mean that [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i thought Richardus meant [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: yes. works well? I've never tried it [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus we dont use Remote Admin module [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: works great Justin [10:20] Dave Coyle: it doesn''t reconnect when the sim gets restarted, so you have to do that manually, but that's only a minor inconvenience [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya that would be typical of any rcon really [10:20] Richardus Raymaker: is there a good howto about remote console on the wiki ? [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not sure Richardus might be [10:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha ha [10:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: good one, Richardus :D [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RestConsole [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: will study coyleds one at least [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: but, remote admin works very good [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya i have never tried it [10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: my worry about the remote stuff is its not very secure [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: only ffault. it dont have own port. so you cannot firewall it [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: our use of rest console is all local [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: we do not connect from external servers with it [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: problem is there is no encryption [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: or any level of protection at all [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: holy unexpected documentation, batman [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: rest console i need to use the same as remote admin [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: so if you use it [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: get familiar with firewalling ports [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: same wite remote console. thats not encrypted to [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: so only your IP can connect [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise your leaving yourself exposed in my opinion [10:24] Richardus Raymaker: yes, but you cannot firewall Remote admin now. then you bnlock the whole sim [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you cant isolte the port right [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: remote console you can though [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: Remote Admin i think was one of the IBM things they did [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: which is not really being maintained anymore [10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, IBM started that [10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: still get regular patches for it, but there isn't really a maintainer... [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:25]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, bad job from IBM. you expect the know something about security :) [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: im sure an option for alternate port could be done though [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: you might send email to the opensim-dev group [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: requesting it [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: one of the IBM guys might pick up on it still [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: or someone else with interest [10:26]  Richardus Raymaker: i cannot send any mail to the mailing list. it needs always admin inspection [10:26]  Richardus Raymaker: recieve works fine [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm it will get through [10:27]  Richardus Raymaker: i think btw to know the problem [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: i think thats just standard response [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: though i have not seen that response in a long time [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: i suspect thats been turnd off Rich [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: we turn that on when dumbasses show up starting flame wars [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: has anybody else tried migrating a large database to the most recent master code, btw? [10:27] Richardus Raymaker: = always on .. [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: depends on your definition of large [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: no, run 0.7 only as HG standalone [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not large in your terms ;) [10:28]  Richardus Raymaker: large = >= 500MB [10:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: seen one report of faiulre, which Diva thinks might be down to our Mysql.Data.dll [10:29]  Arielle Popstar: does upgrading a diva install count as a db migration? [10:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't (yet) [10:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: if it's to the very latest, yes [10:29]  Arielle Popstar: ok, theni have [10:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin [10:29]  Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle [10:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: what doyou consider large? [10:30]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Richardus [10:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'll go for 1000 rows at a pinch [10:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: so 1000 prim region, which I suppose is not large. The bug report came in for a 100,000 prim table [10:30]  Richardus Raymaker: that you only find at more regions at1 instance [10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a region with over 16k prims [10:31] Hiro Protagonist: I've basically sidestepped all migration issues by using oars and iars; but that is not an ideal solution for everyone [10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: I have one with 22500 prims and 10500 scripts hehe [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: tried migrating recently? [10:31] Arielle Popstar: i have had problems with the latest diva upgrade [10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, no. Been waiting for 0.7 to stabilize first [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, oars and iars are okay for small cases but not for big. And of course you lose avatar info and other stuff [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: wise man :) [10:31]  Andrew Hellershanks: :-) [10:32] Richardus Raymaker: yes, that avatar info need te be fixt really fast. else we have 1 big CB. [10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a 50G opensim DB. Don't want to mess with it. [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, I wonder if a command to dump all regions and inventories for an entire simulation would be good [10:33] Hiro Protagonist: I do have reports from one of my users with some success with a similarly large migration, but I believe it's a bit old to be relevant [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: er, entire opensim instance, I mean... wouldn't work for grid though.... [10:33] Hiro Protagonist: he migrated early in the 0.7 release cycle [10:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a copy on an external hard drive. I could set up a MySQL instance that uses the external drive for its data files and do a migration with it. [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ah so you mean simulator migration Justin? [10:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, a dump command could be useful. Why wouldn't it work for grid if its a form of db dump? [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok i thought you meant a grid [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: for a standalone you could pluck out all the inventories in principle. For a grid you'd have to that separately... [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: 100,000 prims in 1 region? [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: would also mean extending the OAR format to multi-region tbh [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is its the new MySQL connector [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: it sucks [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: most migrations will fail if your using it [10:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: very disappointing, considering it's release code. However, somebody refuses to go back [10:35] Hiro Protagonist: one thing I've seen, along the lines of extending oars [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: does 0.7 still have the new mysql dll ? [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: actualyl the release 0.7 [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: uses the old one [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: i would hope the 0.7.0.1 release does also [10:35] Hiro Protagonist: is the use of a console command script set that dumps all sims on a grid and an alternate that loads them [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i know. ok [10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it will [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: all sims on a grid? [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: so worst case people use the relaease to run the migration [10:36] Hiro Protagonist: errrr, regions, sorry [10:36] Hiro Protagonist: yes [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: then move up after the migration is done [10:36] Hiro Protagonist: but the grid is a small prvate grid with just a dozen or so regions [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be very difficult to achieve because you'd need to communicate with all the distributed region servers [10:36] Hiro Protagonist: yes, it would not work at all for a distributed grid [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: 0.7.0.1 doesn't contain any db migration [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: so for a standalone.... [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I don't think Diva will let a 0.7.1 go out the door with that problem, and neither would I [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya shes well aware of the problem [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: we both ran into it while i was testing robust migrations [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I see [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: one of the problems too with that connector [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if your mysql database is external to your sim server [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: it wants to do a reverse DNS lookup [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: for security reasons [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: which is probably good [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: but for people who are not very savy with those kind of issues its kind of a pain [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly meaning if the server doesnt get the same address that was sent when it does its reverse lookup it will fail [10:39] Hiro Protagonist: there's a point where you have to stop catering to simple configurations -- it comes along at about the point people are using external database servers ;3 [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: that problem is an easy fix though [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: just a matter of editing the host file on the server machine [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: and make sure the IP resolves the same name thats sent [10:40] Hiro Protagonist: actually, that might be a good deal more secure than a reverse dns lookup [10:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: Neb that is a good security feature, but it makes running it more difficult for ppl with less IT know how [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: right [10:40] Hiro Protagonist: as dns is pretty easily spoofed [10:40] Hiro Protagonist: and hosts, not so much [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: well you should also be relying on firewalls too [10:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep Hiro [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: you dont really want to expose your mysql server to the entire world anyway [10:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: better not :) [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: thats never a good idea [10:41]  UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:41]  Dave Coyle is Offline [10:42]  UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: any more progress on the great eventual 0.7 migration? :) [10:42] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: a bit, we ran into some issues with our proxy and HG [10:42]  Richardus Raymaker: how's the 0.7 website ? [10:42] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: the new HG doesnt like running behind a reverse proxy [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: so we need to change how were going to approach it [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: probably with DNS Round Robin instead [10:43] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:43] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8 [10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: but things are progressing, now always as smooth as we like [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: being no one is really running OpenSImulator like we are [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: twas ever thus :) [10:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, you guys are really beating it silly and showing the flaws [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i think we should get past this issue pretty quickly [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: we wasted a whole day yesterday though [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: trying to make it work with nginx [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: as soon as we enabled HG though it stops working [10:45]  Hiro Protagonist: wasnt an entire waste though, much was learned [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya mostly just alot of frustration [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: not knowing why it wasnt working [10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: glad I'm in another country ;) [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: trying to fix a few basic-ish bugs today. I think I've discovered why shift-copy makes non- root -prims seem phantom [10:47] Hiro Protagonist: oh nice [10:47] Richardus Raymaker: aha nice, because thats the 99% way you copy prims [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: and hopefully I've squahsed the bug where setting all the textures ona prim sometimes doesn't set all the faces [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: that bug sucks [10:47] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) c313126: 2010-08-06 00:00:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [10:47] Richardus Raymaker: nice, that bug hits me the last time a bit more [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's very annoying [10:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I've seen that about the textures not going to all faces in 069PF. Thought that was an odd bug. [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: It's basically because the client is sending 6 different texture entry updates (for a dube)( [10:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: cube [10:48]  Andrew Hellershanks nods [10:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: but we were handling every update on a seperate thread, which means occasionally the writing order was wrong [10:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm making that stuff synchronous (which is a one liner) which I think should get rid of the problem [10:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: cool. [10:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: Will that make it in to 069 if it works? [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: nice, ya if you hollow and cut a cube its even more [10:49]  Hiro Protagonist: goes up to 7 faces ;) [10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: it would be trivial to port back, though I'd prefer someone to test it first on 0.6.9 - I don't have much time to do it myself [10:49] Hiro Protagonist: the hollow being all one face