Chat log from the meeting on 2011-05-17

[11:02] Bri Hasp: may as well join a convent [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello dave [11:02] Hiro Protagonist: lol let me know how that works out hun ;) [11:02]  Foxx Bode: -*- HeLlO-*- [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Andrew [11:02]  Bri Hasp: maybe Kokua will be ok [11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, nebadon [11:03]  Sarah Kline: hi all [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I got Ruthed [11:03]  BlueWall Slade: Hi [11:03]  Han Held: Hello again, Foxx [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: i hjeared kokua have it [11:03]  Bri Hasp: not yet [11:03]  Bri Hasp: soon [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I still need to try Kokua, have not tried it yet [11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: there's test version now ? [11:04]  Bri Hasp: Kirsten is best for opensim 7.1 ... thats very odd [11:04]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Jcc [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ive been avoiding V2 viewers as much as possible here on OSgrid [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: until we can fix this current outfit folder issue [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: what's the issue? [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: no need for sl2 viewer here [11:04] Bri Hasp: KLee never opemsims [11:04] Bri Hasp: Wrong [11:04] Sarah Kline: wrong [11:04] BlueWall Slade: wouldn't it be safe to check the asset type and the inventory folder? [11:05] Bri Hasp: you need it for moap and mesh [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, you say parcel area size shows correct for you if you made a parcel ? [11:05] stiofain nbmcmedia: hi folks [11:05] Han Held: FWIW when I tried Kokua recently I didn't have the usual wardrobe issue [11:05] BlueWall Slade: with those 2 it should be safe? [11:05] Quilzie Xemax: Well in that case, you don't _need_ it. :P [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: correct Richardus [11:05] BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hi stiofan [11:05] Bri Hasp: and speed in general [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: chances are if your always seeing 65535 always then you probably have multiple 65535 parcels in your database [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: and everytime you restart your sim its probably going back to 65535 [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: the easiest way to fix that is to save an oar [11:06] Bri Hasp: if people don't start using v2... no progress [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: make a new database and reload your oar [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: i try that nebadon... [11:06] Quilzie Xemax: Bri: At the moment, Kokua is too slow for me to use. [11:06] Bri Hasp: at least try say 1 hour a week [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: there is a command to wipe parcels on your sim [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: no, the parcell must stay. it only give wrong size [11:06] Han Held: I'll switch to it whne I'm able to turn off the debugging window,personally [it seems hard-coded to stay on] [11:07] BlueWall Slade: I have one that is 1024sqm on my test grid [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: if a parel gives the wrong size then there's something seriously wrong with it anyway [11:07] BlueWall Slade: it is reporting the right size [11:07] Bri Hasp: OSG is 98% ok ... D2 is 99.9% ahead of ADITI [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: well this region has many parcels and I think they all display proper size [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: it says 65535sqm [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: go check right now again [11:08] Bri Hasp: MOAP is running super [11:08] Hiro Protagonist: yay, chili am good [11:08] Bri Hasp: that was you? Justin [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I did moap [11:08] Bri Hasp: kudo [11:09] xstorm Radek: thank you i was a bit lost [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: moap works .. [11:09] Bri Hasp: mesh will bring a new level of creations [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: don't trust mesh yet [11:09] Bri Hasp: lol [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: the formats are going to chance and your old mesh won't be visible in older viewers [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: wright it shows correct. my region it shows wrong parcel size. i go try oar first [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: linden lab is going to change the formats [11:10] BlueWall Slade: the avatars will get fun :) [11:10]  Han Held: "Mesh aint' done until opensim don't run [it]" right? [11:10]  xstorm Radek: i have seen to many problems with mesh and lost of data and viewer crashing on aditi test server [11:10]  Bri Hasp: is funn time with blender [11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: LOL @Han [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: mesh ain't done until it's deployed on the linden grid right now :) [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: at least, afaic [11:11] Han Held: what's on the beta grid isn't it's final form tho, necessarily [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: When meshes are fully supported, I won't have much need to use Blender any more. [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: they say it's going to change [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya last i heard LL is hopeful to have it by end of year [11:11] Bri Hasp: they have resident hastles with viewer use [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: its a mesh with mesh [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect thats not 100% set in stone time frame [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it could be longer [11:12] Sarah Kline: they have been merging with the main viewer for months now [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: likely will be [11:12]  BlueWall Slade: I doubt there will be an in-viewer mesh editor [11:12] xstorm Radek: the mesh physics needs much work still [11:12] Bri Hasp: Google is a nice intro [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya I doubt there will be a in viewer mesh editor either [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, I doubt it. Its too complex to do that well in a viewer. [11:13] Hiro Protagonist: too complex for LL perhaps [11:13] BlueWall Slade: unles somebody hooks blender up as a viewer :D [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:13] Hiro Protagonist: Blue, that could probably be done [11:13] Bri Hasp: mail Google [11:13] Sarah Kline: with a side bar [11:13] BlueWall Slade: LL released python client code [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: that would be so overkill though too [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Hook in an SL viewer as a BLender plug-in [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hooking blender up as a viewer [11:13] Han Held: lots of things they could do [eg tie the viewer to blender the way daz3d is tied to bryce] but it's not likely they will [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: blender does so much more than is capable in SL [11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: it would probably be a hellofa lot more stable and efficient though [11:13] xstorm Radek: no they was on the right path with mesh till to many damn hands gotin to it [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: I doubt that [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Blender crashes 50 times a day for me [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its terrible [11:14] Hiro Protagonist: I cant remember blender ever crashing on me [11:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: REally? What version of Blender are you using, Nebadon? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: they all have crashed on me at some point [11:14] BlueWall Slade: it seems good here, but I dont' use it heavily [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: still need to understand blender [11:14] Bri Hasp: (collection charity for Nebs hardware)] [11:14] xstorm Radek: blender crashed ?? [11:14] Hiro Protagonist: I've used the crap out of it for over a decade [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: has nothing to do with my hardware [11:15] xstorm Radek: how did you get blender to crash ? [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: its maby to fast for blender ^^ :)) [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: go download some free models off the net [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I use Blender for sculpting. I have looked at it a little for doing poses and animations but I'm not too far in to that. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i gaurantee you can make belnder crash pretty easily [11:15] Hiro Protagonist: I've also downloaded tons of free models off the net [11:15] Bri Hasp: yes .. agree [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I picked up an Xbox Kinect so now I'm looking to do motion capture witih it and Blender. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:16] BlueWall Slade: would be cool to be able to make custom avatars with animations to fit the bones [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: if you recall, it was you and I did the initial testing on danger grid [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: I think I went through a couple hundred models those couple days alone [11:16] xstorm Radek: oh thats not do to blender thats do to many lines on the mesh model [11:16] BlueWall Slade: (Rex) [11:16] Bri Hasp: it'l happen [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: if your doing basic stuff on Blender it probably isnt likely to crash [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: if you start getting into some of the more advanced stuff adding in scripts [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: using very complex models [11:16] xstorm Radek: yes that is right [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I only have two different sets of addon scripts for Blender. [11:17] Bri Hasp: LL had to redo Havok for mesh? [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah [11:17] xstorm Radek: python and heavy mesh [11:17] Sarah Kline: hi Richardus [11:17] Han Held: That's what I've read, Bri [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: probably Bri [11:17] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: LL does not run a stock Havok [11:17] Bri Hasp: what will we do? [11:17] xstorm Radek: havok and mesh = crap still [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: its about as far from stock as you can get [11:17] BlueWall Slade: they pulled some part of Havok out and placed it in the viewer [11:18] BlueWall Slade: so, TPV will have to come up with a plan for that [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: SL2 you mean.. ? [11:18] BlueWall Slade: Mesh [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: for the Mesh Beta viewer [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: aha. hmm... [11:18] BlueWall Slade: the part that figures the collision [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: the client is doing collision prediction? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: its making the hull for physics mesh [11:19] Bri Hasp: I have models that import to 7.1 but crash LL beta grid [11:19] BlueWall Slade: I think it is doing the -- yeah [11:19] xstorm Radek: im glad to say i have crashed and froze 5 of there mesh sims even mesh city crashed [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: heh thats probably not that hard [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: crashing the LL beta grid sims [11:20] xstorm Radek: no its not [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: it still show wrong area size in about land after oar restore nebadon. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Richardus, I suggest you file a mantis [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: recraete the parcel [11:20] xstorm Radek: put a heavy mesh in a temp on rez unit lol = crash [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: it's broken [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suspect its gonna be a while before we see mesh on the LL main grid [11:20] Bri Hasp: which viewer do you use? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i will be suprised if its this year [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: that i cannot do now. i ceck it later [11:21] BlueWall Slade: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/May-16.html [11:21] xstorm Radek: LL mesh beta viewer [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya I saw that BlueWall [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: very interesting [11:21] Bri Hasp: thats my #3 [11:21] BlueWall Slade: it seems to be pretty good news to me [11:21]  Bri Hasp: 1=Kirsten 7 [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya I suppose [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: LOL Mono are perfect, time to use it for iPhone apps [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:21]  Bri Hasp: 2- LL 2.6.3 [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: though it again sounds like their focus is going to be cell phones [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: whats best way to buy parcel. it seem worked always only corect if you do it from edit screen. and still do it that way [11:22] Han Held: lo Dahlia [11:22] xstorm Radek: lol [11:22] BlueWall Slade: hello Dahlia [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I think the reason mono development has been so slow is because they are focusing all their efforts on cell phones [11:22] Sarah Kline: hi dahlia [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: which is kind of lame [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: thats not really good news for OpenSim [11:22] Sarah Kline: hi warin [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: whats that? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ah the Breakup of Mono team [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: cell phones. the better make mono more complete first. i agree with nebadon [11:23] Warin Cascabel: Hi, Sarah. Hello, everyone. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Attachmate fired the entire Mono Staff [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hello warin [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: no more mono bug fixes? [11:23] xstorm Radek: i think Diva needs to work more on her 7.1 build first im running it and have a lot of errors flooding me [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: no they have not shut down the project [11:23] BlueWall Slade: they started a new company [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and miguel has started a new company, who's focus is Android and iOS mono [11:23] Bri Hasp: my Diva is rock solid [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: the fate of the PC mono is kinda up in the air at the moment [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: we'll have to wait to see what Attachmate does [11:24] Bri Hasp: never see any red text [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: mono is mono, the base project still carries on [11:24]  Bri Hasp: but I am .Net [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Miguels company does say they will continue to patch mono [11:24] xstorm Radek: have you used Diva 7.1 and the iar backup yet ? [11:24] BlueWall Slade: yeah, they are just porting over parts [11:24] Bri Hasp: yes [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes Justin [11:24] BlueWall Slade: it's like adding a client stack in OS [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: but as of right now Attachmate owns all the trademark stuff [11:24] Bri Hasp: 7.1 release om my D2 [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: the hardware for the project [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: if they cut off funding all that goes away [11:25] BlueWall Slade: they have funding [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: someone will have to fork it [11:25]  xstorm Radek: it has a problem moving the users uuid and content makers names [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Miguels company does yes [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: mono Project i dunno [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Rename project from Mono so Single and keep going with it? ;-) [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: to Single [11:25]  Quilzie Xemax: It needs a new name anyway... [11:25]  BlueWall Slade: Miguel == Mono [11:25]  Bri Hasp: maybe not done any but mine [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Miguel doesnt own the name though [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Attachmate does [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: heh, call it Yoko Ono [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: he would have to fork it into something new if they kill it, but who knows I am not saying they are [11:26]  Bri Hasp: hehe [11:26]  Warin Cascabel: I honestly doubt that the open-source community will simply let it die. It's too useful, especially for the Linux environment. [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: they probably wont [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: he basically said they wanted to jump out last year [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i wouldnt think MIcrosoft would want it to die either [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: so, they have been wanting it [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: probably going to be a good thing [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya but he also says their bid to take mono with them failed [11:26] xstorm Radek: any one know how to save the uuid data and content makers names with iar backup ? [11:26] Warin Cascabel: Oh, if it would kill off Linux, Microsoft would let it die. Unless they've completely reversed their stance since the Halloween Documents. [11:27] Han Held: I wonder if all of this 'out of left field' instability is going to affect it's adoption or not, personally [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: it finally happend FYI, either linux is embracing the borg, or the borg is embracing linux, not sure which [11:27] JohanAdrian51 Marksman: hello all [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:27] BlueWall Slade: hello [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: well Microsoft has always embraced Linux [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: but Microsoft are now officially supporting CentOS as a hosted operating system under HyperV [11:27] Han Held: Hi, JohanAdrian51 [11:27] Warin Cascabel: Nebadon, I've got some documents for you to read. :) [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: microsoft has always has a Unix DEV SDK for windows [11:27]  BlueWall Slade: they picked a good one, lol [11:27]  BlueWall Slade: :/ [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt suprise me they would pick CentOS [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: it takes away from RedHat [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Redhat is MS"s biggest competition [11:28]  xstorm Radek: ubuntu bette [11:28]  xstorm Radek: 'better [11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: too bad its not debian but that would be politically infeasable I guess [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya Debian would revolt [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: probably change their code to break support [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:29]  Quilzie Xemax: Well who uses HyperV anyway. [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I rather doubt they are that petty [11:29]  Warin Cascabel: my company [11:29]  BlueWall Slade: no Toy Story 4 [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: nah I am just kidding [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah :) [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but debian people are very Anti-Microsoft [11:29] Warin Cascabel: The Debian maintainers, perhaps. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what I mean [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: lots of people use HyperV [11:29] Warin Cascabel: ok [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think once Ballmer goes MS will change [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: reaction grid is built on it, for instance [11:29] Quilzie Xemax: Well I'm sure they would just laugh if it supported Debian, don't see why they would get angry about it.. [11:30] Warin Cascabel: The Debian maintainers have a severe allergy to closed-source software. [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: I kinda like Ballmer, he's funny to watch [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, any opensim related topics? [11:30] Han Held: MS would lose more face on that than Debian would, even taking the FSF fanatics into account [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: looks like parcel where corrupted. lets see what happens if its changed from owner [11:30] stiofain nbmcmedia: did i break the grid on sunday by sending too many group ims for our live music event? [11:30] BlueWall Slade: Robust.ini - region flags [11:30] Hiro Protagonist: Justin, have you seen the exceptions we've recently been getting on the inventory service? [11:30] BlueWall Slade: is there any good reason not to process those? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Only thing i can think of Justin is we need to address the Current Outfit folder issue as soon as possible I think [11:30] Warin Cascabel: I've noticed that the last few versions of OpenSim, I can't see any meshes in my regions. I haven't checked to see if the config files have changed, though. [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: hi stiofen [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: hmm I need to see if i can verify that Warin [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect the answer would be that if they changed on the server then they wouldn't get changed in the ini file [11:31] stiofain nbmcmedia: hi rich [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: cant see meshes? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: as you know warin I have actually been having that problem for some time now [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: nothing at all? [11:31] Warin Cascabel: nope, Dahlia. Completely invisible. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: for me its random though [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it is on my mind [11:31] BlueWall Slade: that is what I think - but it confuses people [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: can you collide with them? [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I was looking in to why attachments don't work in group notices and find that two of the data items for notices aren't handled anywhere in the group code. [11:31] Warin Cascabel: They're THERE - I can drag-select them, and they're physically present for collisions. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: cool Justin V2 is becoming more and more popular [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: does one normally change those details through the viewer? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: and I am finding more and more I need to clear people out [11:32] BlueWall Slade: no [11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: LL is changing mesh format [11:32] BlueWall Slade: in the console [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: sounds like a missing feature [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: are you using a really new viewer? [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. [11:32] Bri Hasp: :) [11:32]  Andrew Hellershanks: Now that I see the problem I can look in to how to fix it. [11:32]  Bri Hasp: if itimports.. ya can see it [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: waiting for kokua version to test... [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: one possible solution is to allow deletes of items that are links [11:33]  Warin Cascabel: Yep, Dahlia. LL 2.6.8, and Kirstens S21. [11:33]  Bri Hasp: Kokua.. needs the 2.6 [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if thats possible Justin [11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: because in theory links don't just occur in current outfit folders [11:33]  xstorm Radek: kokua is out for testing [11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: hmmm kirstens worked last time I tried it [11:33]  BlueWall Slade: re COF: I think checking the asset type + the inventory folder should be safe? [11:33]  Bri Hasp: dead viewer for my use as 2.4 [11:33]  Warin Cascabel: I know they'll be changing the mesh format, I'm mainly experimenting with textures and mesh optimization [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: does kokua have mesh? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: as long as we do not allow a specially crafted region to change any item to a link [11:33] Warin Cascabel: Kokua doesn't have mesh yet, no. [11:33]  Warin Cascabel: If I revert to an older OpenSim, I can see the meshes. [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: Ill have to try it [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: I havent updated for a week or 2 [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya I need to try that too Warin [11:34] BlueWall Slade: Warin, there is a setting in the OpenSimDefaults.ini [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: bloody hell [11:34] Bri Hasp: Kirsten ver 7 is the best avail for opensim [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I suspect it isn't possible to change the type of an existing item [11:34] BlueWall Slade: @Warin, it defaults to enabled though [11:34] Bri Hasp: as a v2 [11:35]  xstorm Radek: are you using opensim 7.2 that seems to have a lot of bugs still [11:35] Dahlia Trimble: I cant run kirsten or sintularity on ubuntu, it wants some library thats not available in apt [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: cool Justin, as long as thats not possible then ya allowing delete of just links sounds fine to me [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: they have a very specific asset type? [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:35] BlueWall Slade: yes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: k cool [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia kirsten worked always fine here. but nottried latest versions [11:35] Warin Cascabel: Good point, xstorm. I'm not sure if the one I revert to that shows them is 0.7.1 or 0.7.2. [11:35] BlueWall Slade: 46 or 48, I think [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: as long as its not strictly going by folder type [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats Folder [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i mean the asset itself [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i know current outfit folder type is 48 [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: but what about the assets themselves? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: are they also 48? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: we cant go by folder type [11:36] BlueWall Slade: I think 46 [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: that would be a disaster [11:36] BlueWall Slade: 1 sec [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: ya I mean latest [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: there are no assets. The 'assets' in this case are the original inventory item uuids [11:36] xstorm Radek: founder type what ? [11:36] Warin Cascabel: xstorm: good call; it's 0.7.1 RC2. [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: it wants a newer glibc than is available [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: so the link itself is not an asset? [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the target items remain as they ever were [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the link itself is an inventory item [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: if we are going by parentfolderID we cant do that [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: with a certain asset type [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: thats good then, that should work [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: if a delete item comes in, it would only be allowed if the inventory item were a link. the original target is never touched [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that sounds good to me [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's one solution which has the advantage of not requiring special coding [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but I might still look at the other approach [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya, it should be as simple as we can make it without comprimising security [11:38] BlueWall Slade: the COF folder is type 64 [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: security is a relative term here, but I know what you mean [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:38] xstorm Radek: there needs to be a way to still pull in uuid from older servers even going back to 6 that way we all have a working uuid database worldwide [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: there can be no such thing as a worldwide uuid db [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure i understand what you mean xstorm [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: not in a distributed system with no central control point [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya and it could take several minutes to scan a database with a few billion uuids [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: that would introduce some major delays [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: would require some really heavy hardware [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: having 1000's of people constantly scanning through billions of uuids [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: do you iknow what asset type 24 is? [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: "how to bring a cloud down" [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: I wonder if we should clone mono repo.. I suppose someone has forked it already [11:40] Warin Cascabel: Also, it would be tough to handle cases where people set UUIDs manually to nonrandom values (for instance, there's a region on the grid with a UUID of 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000, which is a really bad idea) [11:40] xstorm Radek: ok let look at it this way if say user a makes a items at such and such a date then some one makes a copy or bad backup like with second inventory the uuid global will call up the first makers user id and uuid data [11:40] BlueWall Slade: I see 24 and 25 [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: you want a OSmono dahlia ? :) [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: no I just want a backup of the bits [11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: i need to backup mono 2.10.2 at least [11:41]  BlueWall Slade: ok, 24 is the link of the items [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: good [11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: or clone whole diretory :) [11:42] BlueWall Slade: 25 is the link of the "My Outfit" [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: heh well atleats opensim wiki isnt the only out of data wiki [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/AssetType [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it only goes to type 24 [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: err type 22 i mean [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: Justin, did my question about exceptions on the current inventory server get lost in the COF flood? ;) [11:42] BlueWall Slade: so assettype 24 or 25 & folder 26 [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: yes - could you repeat? [11:42]  Hiro Protagonist: did ya know about 'em? [11:42]  Quilzie Xemax: Yeah, Second Life Wiki has a lot of seriously out of date technical docs, no surprise really. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: those are probably osgrid specific issues mostly Hiro [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: that looks like a paste from libomf, if anything [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: libomv [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: Ok Neb [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: they are mysql timeouts [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: just like to get things as exception-free as possible so we can try and narrow down the noise until its related to the network timeouts we've been seeing [11:43]  BlueWall Slade: libfbomb [11:44]  xstorm Radek: ok to make it more simple on how to think about glbal uuid think of it more like how this link works http://search.metaverseink.com/opensim/results.jsp?query=shirt&submit=Search [11:44] xstorm Radek: globle [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: global ? ;) [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:44]  xstorm Radek: yes [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: gobble gobble :) [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think you understand the scope of what your suggesting [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: nor the cost [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: you would have to set up and maintain an authoritative system [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: like dns [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: it is very likely possible but would require p2p just for the communications about the uuids [11:45] Dave Coyle: we need to have less centralization, not more [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: heh right [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: and *theoretically* its mathematcally desireable because of the *theoretical* uniqueness [11:45] BlueWall Slade: do we need a dial-plan? [11:45] xstorm Radek: make the database work as part of the opensim program much like the interface diva has with her wifi [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: but as we know, there is no guaruntee a given uuid that is presented to us is unique [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: it's too simple to forge them [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: arent guiids more unique than uuids? [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: metaverseink is diva's search engine [11:46] xstorm Radek: yes [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: you could point at any other search engine too, if such existed [11:46] xstorm Radek: right [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: Ive heard LL has uuid collision problems [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: doesn't matter dahlia - there is no way to guaruntee the legitimacy of a uuid (or guid) [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I know what you're saying, but practically a single uuid db is impossible [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: practically yes [11:47] BlueWall Slade: I think we may need some uuid:uuid pairs in the future when HG is common [11:47] xstorm Radek: but to have them all link up with each other [11:47] Warin Cascabel: For one thing, you'd need storage space for 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 unique values. [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: theoretically, it's already a globally distributed database [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: it just doesnt have any accessors [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: what your saying would be nice xstorm, but its not practical in any kind of economic sense [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: but it is an interesting idea [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: even if it's not a central mandate, you could still have a db that mirrored everyone's profile, though policing it would be a nightmare [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: well obviously it has accessors lol [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya anything is possible [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: but not *globally addressed* accessors [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its just how much will it cost [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: in dollars and man hours [11:48] xstorm Radek: it will set a all new path for opensim that LL has drop from the plans back in2007 [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: which makes it very not practical [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: xstorm: the solution being purused is to have the creatior lookup url as part of the creation information [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: creator, rather [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: if you could count on the UUID/GUID being unique and consistent mathematically, then it would probably eliminate a huge number of problems typcially found in indexing and accessing large volumes of data [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: which allows you to go to an url that anyone can host, not just one central repo [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: but you cant [11:49] xstorm Radek: yes [11:49] xstorm Radek: thats right [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: short of doing some sort of insane on-the-fly crypto to sign all the IDs [11:49] xstorm Radek: lol [11:50] xstorm Radek: no over thinking it [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: anything else people want to talk about? [11:50] Hiro Protagonist: nah, your statements arent false or wrong, and not even a bad idea - we just cant count on the world to play nice with such a system [11:50] stiofain nbmcmedia: ove noticedd before that if i send group ims from our sims it causes local problems but i was told that this week i caused grid wide probs by sending too many, can anyone confirm this so i know not to do again? [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: come up to 10 minutes to the hour [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not to mention I suspect there are actually very few big grids who would want to partake in such a thing [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: most of the big grids are closed wall [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and do not want their users venturing out or sharing data [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: well thats a network effect problem [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: and those always erode [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I think part of the reluctance would also be security [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: right [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: hypergrid is hardly a secure protocol [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but what i am getting at [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: is if the big grids dont want to partake [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: I used to send a lot of group ims from a region here, it sometimes causes problems [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: who runs the show? [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and who funds it [11:52]  BlueWall Slade: the issue is protecting content creators that dnot' what to see their no-mod items at the freebie barn in a couple of weeks [11:52] xstorm Radek: much of what i am saying and thinking is a part of the database now and hypergrid as it is working now we just need to add some work to make it better [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's an issue with any centralized service [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: getting 1000's of little grids to cooparate sounds nightmarish [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory you could have a distirbuted system like dns but this is a whole world of complexity [11:52] Erich Bremer: May I suggest using RDF dereferencable URIs to access data between grids? [11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald is Online [11:53] Erich Bremer: The W3C semantic web group uses them for RDF now [11:53] Hiro Protagonist runs for google [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: there are other types of uuids that take time and machine unique characteristics into account [11:53] xstorm Radek: so was hypergrid jumping and moving items from sim to other server sims [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: that's all distributed, it doesn't require central co-ordination [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: not that it isn't complicated [11:54] xstorm Radek: but if it was moving data will be faster and better [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: not if there is billions of uuids to parse [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: no it would not be faster [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: well, you would just look up via uuid anyway [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: unless your talking about some massively parrallel cloud based delivery system [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: just use twitter on the cheap :) [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: which would cost a fortune to maintain [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: for every user profile, set up a twitter handle with that uuid [11:55]  xstorm Radek: lol [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: and if you tweet it, it returns the profile information to you [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: simples [11:55]  xstorm Radek: twitter type of thinking is not bad [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: they've already scaled out an architecture for this with a cnetral service [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: let them take care of the prolbem [11:55]  Hiro Protagonist: Heh [11:56]  Warin Cascabel: Looking up every UUID on a third-party registry - or at least the ones which need to be persistent - would add a heck of a lot of overhead to many things. It would actually make things slower, not faster. [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: right [11:56]  Hiro Protagonist: Erich: Interesting idea. I'm assuming you refer to the hash technique [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: thats what I am saying too Warin [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, it would be dog slow and occasionally you'd get fail whale profiles instead [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: but nobdy is perfect [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: well, there are technologies that optimize for the sort of access you folks are shouting down; you seem to have a bad case of MySQLitis [11:56] Dahlia Trimble: I hash them to 64 bits in some if my viewer code lol [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: look at e.g., bittorrent [11:57] Erich Bremer: Hiro - Each grid would prefix it's URIs with it's own domain name. a UUID could be appended to the lead part of the URI [11:57] xstorm Radek: not if you have to jump from one dsl users server on there opensim to a cable opensim and back now thats slow [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: erich: this is pretty much what diva is already doing [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: Hiro sure there are other technologies, but what is the cost to implement them [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: for us, mainly time [11:58] xstorm Radek: you can do a look up on diva system very fast [11:58] Hiro Protagonist: How much stuff can we con Justin CC into doing for us :3 [11:58] Erich Bremer: is she using RDF or her own brew? [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: pffff [11:58] Hiro Protagonist: :D [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:58] xstorm Radek: lol [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: erich: homebrew [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: go recruit some more developers :) [11:58]  Erich Bremer: I would suggest she use RDF, it would prevent another walled garden form going up [11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: LOL ya got Bluewall, what more do ya need! :p [11:59]  BlueWall Slade: @.@ [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:59]  Erich Bremer: billions of RDF statements already exist on the semantic linked open data cloud now: [11:59]  Erich Bremer: http://richard.cyganiak.de/2007/10/lod/ [11:59]  BlueWall Slade: I haven't done much coding the past month RL has caught up with me [11:59]  stiofain nbmcmedia: i need to go but id appreciate it if someone vud get bak to me about whether my sending group ims at 6 am 10 am and 2pm pst caused gridwide problems as ive been told it did and just want to know what would be best practicefor events in the future [12:00]  xstorm Radek: we can justwatch to see what idiot move LL wil make next by dropping more workers and snag them in to helpin lol [12:00] Hiro Protagonist knows that tune by heart [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: heh that diagram is like a bad nightmare [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:00] BlueWall Slade: and AT&T keeps sending me nasty email about botnet crap [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: there might be something in here paper http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18483217/hypergrid-draft.pdf [12:00] BlueWall Slade: :/ [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: her [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: just dont send too many ;) [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: tooo many bubbblees.. [12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: is group chat even working? [12:00]  Erich Bremer: Justin - can access that pdf [12:01]  Erich Bremer: can't [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: not well Dahlia [12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: stiofain: there is a good possibility that the things that happened with your IMs and some other troubles just happened to occur at the same time [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: Group chat is pretty terrible [12:01]  Erich Bremer: Justin - got it in IE, firefox didn't like it [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: odd, my firefox is fine with it [12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: but until we can pin it down, it would seriously help if youd refrain from using group IM in that way [12:01]  stiofain nbmcmedia: ok hiro [12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: thanks mate [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i actually disabled the ability to send group im's in the 3 big groups for now [12:03] BlueWall Slade: it makes a total copy of the message for each member [12:03] xstorm Radek: he he he he hhhhmmmm now how can i make a im bot lol [12:03] BlueWall Slade: that pretty much sux [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: i turned group IM's off to [12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: i can only send group notices [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: at one time I added something that stopped it from sending a group message if the recipient was offline [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: but I think it defaulted to sending it [12:04]  Quilzie Xemax: Well presence is a bit broken anyway.. [12:04] stiofain nbmcmedia: as long as i kno its an issue i wont use til i hearr different [12:04] xstorm Radek: why not just go to opensim.ini and turn that part off ? [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: it would be nice to have a seperate group server you can install on your server. and opensim send once the message to that server and then that is doing the hard work. and hope the lag is gone on region [12:05] BlueWall Slade: there is something called rabbit mq [12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: yes quilzi.. offline / online. im lost. becausee many times no answhere back [12:05] BlueWall Slade: it is a java server [12:05] BlueWall Slade: dunno what client stacks they have [12:05] stiofain nbmcmedia: any chance of an upcoming events section on osg splash screen? [12:05] xstorm Radek: you can do that if you just use google [12:05] Bri Hasp: are profiles going to a web thing [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear so [12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: I started to experiment with XMPP for group chat but there are a lot of issues with how it interacts with the way viewers communicate [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: possibly stiofain, but right now thats not a big priority [12:05] Bri Hasp: kk [12:06]  Bri Hasp: good idea [12:06] Dave Coyle: bluewall: rabbitmq isn't written in java. you;re probably thinking of activemq. [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I hear linden abandoned their xmpp efforts [12:06] xstorm Radek: yes they did [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya LL has given up on XMPP [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: ya but Im not sure the problem was with XMPP [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i read a pretty good article on why [12:06] Hiro Protagonist: LOL Dahlia I'd bet it wasn't ;) [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember where i saw that now [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: mostly i think it came down to cost [12:07]  stiofain nbmcmedia: bye folks thx for the advice [12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm happy to leave it as a mystery right now - too much other stuff going on :) [12:07] Hiro Protagonist: tc Stiofain and keep in touch [12:07] Bri Hasp: ewww.. is lunch time [12:07] Bri Hasp: bye bye [12:07] Hiro Protagonist: bye Briness [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: XMPP is not a very efficient chat protocol but I would think it capable of handling LL group chat traffic [12:07] Sarah Kline: bye [12:07] Bri Hasp: ty ty y'all [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bye bri, stiofain [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: bye [12:07] xstorm Radek: bye to all thats is going [12:07] Bri Hasp: thankies for moap again [12:07] Dave Coyle: facebook chat is built on xmpp [12:08] Hiro Protagonist: facebook chat is often running like ass [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: you're welcome. I'm surprised ppl having been using viewre 2with the link problems [12:08] Hiro Protagonist: but I think that has more to do with FB and less to do with XMPP [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: Ive never seen a large room with over 100 users with XMPP [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: muts have been annoying when they were constantly breaking [12:08] Bri Hasp: outfit link? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya someone wrote a good article about it [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: which viewer are you using? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: LL IM is much more complex than Facebook [12:08] xstorm Radek: i use imprudence it works [12:08] Bri Hasp: Kirsten 7 [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: becasue of scripting [12:08] Quilzie Xemax: Plain XML is hardly ever efficient. I did see a proposal to use some binary XML encoding for XMPP a long while ago though. [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: does that not do outfits? [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: there are litterally millions of scripts in SL that communicate via IM [12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: it far out numbers users [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: IRC is way more efficient, probably because of the very low overhead and the simple message structure [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of instant messaging [12:09] Hiro Protagonist: yeah they have a lot of infrastructure stuff hacked onto the back of IM as well [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: the amount of IM traffic LL generates is insane [12:10] Bri Hasp: moap is very handy for saving work for educationals.. across grids [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i wish i could find this article i read [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it explained it very well [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its some ungodly amount of IMs per second though [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: neb if you find it post to me in IRC? [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: brI: cool [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: sure [12:10] Bri Hasp: flash content too [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: just got to resolve the links issue, the map issue and the initial appearance issues now [12:11] Dahlia Trimble: gonna go get lunch. Bye all :) [12:11] BlueWall Slade: someone posted some module and things for using the web in V2 [12:11]  Bri Hasp: me too.. laters [12:11]  xstorm Radek: when im in the irc chat i drive you all crazy lol [12:11]  xstorm Radek: my irc name is Bill Windwalker [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: we're all crazy anyway - so it don't matter [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: damn it twitter only goes back so far [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: dunno if i am ever gonna find this damn artcile [12:12]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:12]  Richardus Raymaker is Offline [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go myself, before nebadon finds that article :) [12:12] Hiro Protagonist: lmao [12:12] BlueWall Slade: hehe [12:12] xstorm Radek: look in the archive database [12:12] Hiro Protagonist: thanks for everything Justin [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: bye for now, folks [12:12] xstorm Radek: bye justin [12:12] BlueWall Slade: take care [12:12] xstorm Radek: thankyou