Chat log from the meeting on 2012-05-29

[11:06] Richardus RaymakerRichardus Raymakertape.. whaaaa. the never get the storage. indeed blue hdd's overrulled them in size and price [11:06] Richardus RaymakerRichardus Raymakerhi viv [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: for now still make backup bewfoire i can redesign [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hey Viv_K something you might want to try with your Nvidia 560 in the nvidia control panel [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: enable FXAA [11:06] VivK Lowlag: okay [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: you'll have to relog for it to take effect [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: but its a much more efficient form of AntiaAliasing [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: won't be major boost [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but it can help a little with AntiAliasing [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:07] Sarah Kline: Hi Justin [11:07] BlueWall Slade: Hi Jcc [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I want to upgrade Nirans viewer [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: brb guys I am going to relog [11:07] BlueWall Slade:. [11:07] VivK Lowlag: okay wrote it down thanks for the tip [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:07] BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: dos fxaa cost frames ? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it should increase frame rate [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i don't think 2XX nvidias support it though [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ok brb [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: going to upgrade nirans viewer [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: under wich menu is it hidden in nvidia settings ? [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i can turn fxaa on [11:09] VivK Lowlag: had an intersting chat with Armin today [11:10] VivK Lowlag: if we can find 10 people that want to work on a totally opensim viewer he would keep work up on teapot [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats a tall order [11:11] VivK Lowlag: true [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: ok fxaa is enabled. on GF275 [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: at least it say "on" [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: It really sounds like very soon we are probably not going to be able to use the LL viewer in OpenSimulator anymore [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: 10 people to active develop? [11:11] Sarah Kline: looks up [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: newer versions that is [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: what makes you say that? [11:12] Sarah Kline: why [11:12] VivK Lowlag: yes sir [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: oh, explain nebadon. because the hovak client side ? [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like LL is going to be moving a lot of Havok stuff to the viewer [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: crap [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: more than what they have actually announced [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: and now ? [11:12] Sarah Kline: oh yes [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: vivk: 10 active developers would be a tall order, 10 testers might be easier [11:12] VivK Lowlag: 10 testers he has now [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant even think of 1 person who would be willing to do viewer development at this point [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: who already isnt involved in a viewer project [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: 10 testers for ? teapot ? or wich one ? [11:13] VivK Lowlag: teapot Rich [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i have never tried teapot myself [11:13] VivK Lowlag: sorry I'm lagging a bit [11:13] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev         b660c49: 2012-05-29 18:18:47 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: ok.. i have teapot installed. but not use it because some basic things where missing.. need to look again [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I have to say I am hooked on Nirans [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: but why can teapot solve the LL tic with havooc ? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but ya Last night I spent a few hours chatting with Maxwell Graf [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and he seems to think that real soon basically the LL TPV's are not going to be allowed for anything but SL anymore [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: he gets a lot of inside information, he is one of the top builders in SL [11:15] Sarah Kline: there was a rumour about an agreement to be signed [11:15] VivK Lowlag: well if he can't come up with the 10 he'll be sending all his opensim fixes to FS [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: i can take a look at nirans [11:15] VivK Lowlag: Hi Dahlia [11:16] Sarah Kline: your pc would die richardous [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: so we will see, but from what it sounds like LL is going to be moving a lot of Havok stuff into the viewer [11:16] BlueWall Slade: hopefully they don't do something like that' [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like they might potentially be trying to offload a lot of stuff from the simulators [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: it cant be worse then zen sarah [11:16] BlueWall Slade: if they do, then I'm out of there [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now Nirans is a lot more stable than Zen is [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: and thats alreadyh pretty ok, only framerate not [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but from what it sounds like [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I can't blame them - doing physics server side is a huge bottleneck [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: any TPV group that signs the agreement with LL to get the havok stuff in their viewer [11:17] VivK Lowlag: potentially be the final nail in the coffin for them [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: evil mind: would LL move havoc to client because the know SL is runnin emtpy :P [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that TPV project will no longer be allowed to connect to anything but SL [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: so I think for sure we can kiss Firestorm goodbye [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: from a recent post by Jessica Lyons Firestorm are talking to ll about that [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: possibly Nirans and Zen as well [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: so I wouldn't take this all as gospel yet [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: so LL is going to remove the command line parameters to for connecting ? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: no its certainly not been announced [11:18] VivK Lowlag: how much code would be added to the viewer? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but it certainly does not sound like things are leaning in our favor at this point [11:18] Sarah Kline: we could only use ones before agreement [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but I also do not see it as a completely bad thing either [11:18] BlueWall Slade: can fork where it is now and develop off that [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but I can tell you [11:18] VivK Lowlag: some think the viewer as is in file size is too much [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: the LL viewer is going to change drasticlly soon [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: they are talking abotu specular and bump mappping [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: better lighting systems [11:19] Sarah Kline: wow [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lots of havok stuff [11:19] BlueWall Slade: those would probably work here ok [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: theres a lot of physics you just cant do reliably client side in a model like SL, you cant collide reliably against something that hasnt rezzed in your viewer yet [11:19] Sarah Kline: normal maps ) [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: right [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are going to fully move physics to the viewer [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: well i agree with nebadon. its good to finaly get away from LL code. the only problem is the development for opensim viewer. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but Havok does a lot more than just collisions too though [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: you can only really do viewer effects that physics can help with [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: scene physics all need to be server side [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya regardless though, any TPV group that signs this agreement [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that viewer will only be allowed to connect to SL [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: is my understanding [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: and thats really the issue [11:21] Sarah Kline: sounds like somthing they would do [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: even if you can get by the rezzed object problem, theres still communication lag and synchronization problems [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: That means they have to take away the loginuri [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: right, it sounds potentially like that might be what happens [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: so, [ -loginuri http://login.osgrid.org -loginpage http://osgrid.org/splash -helperuri http://helper.osgrid.org/ --multiple ] this is bocked in the future ? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: probably just a hard coded list of SL approved grids [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ie beta grid etc.. [11:22] Sarah Kline: maybe people will make patched viewers [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody could still recompile a viewer with loginuri [11:22] Arielle Popstar: sounds to me like LL is worrying about Opensim then [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they can't Sarah [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: and then distributed it without the havok library [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they would loose their TPV status [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: if they do [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: thats the whole point of signing the agreement [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it dpeneds if they care and what they're silling to sign [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: they could even be potentially opening themselves up to breach of contract law suit [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: willing [11:22] VivK Lowlag: why would LL be worried about opensim? [11:22] Sarah Kline: I mean a 4th party ) [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: ariell +, thats how it feels for me [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think the havok library is only for pathfinding development, like visualizing the navigation mesh [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: I don't think they care about OpenSim [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its Havok [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I still can't imagine any tpv project willingly signing up to something that could get them personally sued [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: you dont need it for normal use [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Havok makes you sign exlusivity deals about licensing [11:23] Arielle Popstar: because they dont have to lose all their business to us before it starts to hurt [11:23] Arielle Popstar: http://www.havok.com/try-havok [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: once they start loading up the viewer with havok libraries [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I actually rather doubt it. We're nothing more than a pimple on a spot [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it technocally is on a Project to Project basis [11:23] VivK Lowlag: this is a business? [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its a project [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Havok does per project licensing [11:23] Sarah Kline: they probably see opensim as becoming a threat [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: we are not part of SL [11:24] Arielle Popstar: whatever for them it is a business [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thus it can not be used for OpenSimulator [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I think linden are much more worried about trying to preserve their business [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, i see thae last time more empty places and sims disapear. reason econemy or ..... [11:24] Arielle Popstar: how much business did they lose from educators leaving LL for opensim alternative? [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: general indifference is far more of a threat to them than we are [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: I think LL might be trying to make their User base smaller [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but more active [11:24] Arielle Popstar: i dont agree Justin [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: they are trying to shed a few 100 pounds of flab [11:25] Arielle Popstar: i think we aRE MORE A THOURN THEN YOU THINK [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: justin, so the are still worried about opensim. becuase that hurt there business [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I really doubt it [11:25] Arielle Popstar: cap0s sorry [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, there is nothing that really justifies that [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: many arielle [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: if you took all the commercial OpenSim grids [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i bet their profits all combined together [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: we probably augment their business as well as threaten it [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: is less than 1% of LL's business profits [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the grids that are directly competing with LL anyway [11:25] Sarah Kline: but if they put more client side it takes load off their servers so they dont have to upgrade them maybe [11:26] Arielle Popstar: how many standalones out there used to e $300 regions to them? [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: LL want to be a gaming platform.. [11:26] Sarah Kline: they have a lot of them ) [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: sarah: it would be aiming to improve the experience [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: a new facebook is maby betetr word in 3d [11:26] Arielle Popstar: they have lost 1000 regions this year according to reports [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: but they have a problem because of the open-source nature of the viewer [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, the LL region count has not fallen significantly [11:26] Sarah Kline: yes [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its stayed pretty static for some time [11:26] BlueWall Slade: if they put more in the viewer, then it puts more on the client's network which could toatall screw them [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: for every region that gets shut down a new one starts up [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it has fallen though - which is far worse than being static or even growing [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: Arielle to many to count [11:26] Dahlia Trimble: how many people used to be able to afford $300/month before the economy tanked? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya a bit, but its not been horribly bad either [11:27] BlueWall Slade: not me [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think in this industry once you start declining you don't grow again [11:27] BlueWall Slade: the mainland maps are more yellow than not [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: if you ask me I think LL is trying to make themeselves more lean [11:27] Arielle Popstar: i dont feel it is just the economy [11:27] Arielle Popstar: there is now an alternative to LL [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: they are looking to reduce the load on their simulators [11:27] Sarah Kline: I wouldnt want them to fold [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: so they can run more simulators per machine and be more profitable [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but the fact also remains Justin [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: that even with them loosing regions [11:28] BlueWall Slade: they should try to consolidate all the used land into fewer regions with some land swap [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: they are still maintaining very high profits [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: who says? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen recent estimates ranging from 70-120 million a year in profits [11:28] Arielle Popstar: where you see that Ne? [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, more LL region on 1 server. well where'smy lag hardhat.. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: there was an article not long ago, unfortunately i didnt keep it [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: saw it on twitter or something, maybe G+ [11:28] VivK Lowlag: facebook ipo was $35-$38 [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i cant recall exactly where I saw it now [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I'm not sure how much store I would put on such stuff [11:28] VivK Lowlag: hehe [11:29] Arielle Popstar: LL is so laggy i think they are short on servers [11:29] Allen Kerensky: NWN or Tateru's Dweel On It had an article [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: FB is 29.90ish right now [11:29] Sarah Kline: i saw it too [11:29] BlueWall Slade: I don't put much stock in anything I hear about SL, lol [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: LL has something has an incredible amount of hardware [11:29] Allen Kerensky: I'd bet LL put in region idle to drive up consolidation and drive down cost per rack [11:29] Arielle Popstar: ut not online i suspect [11:29] Sarah Kline: must be huge [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: but to get back to the viewers. how or wh and where is developing now opensim viewerr. or start todo ? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: of course, LL is certainly always looking to lower their costs [11:30] BlueWall Slade: sure [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: well Richardus, even if LL makes that change [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: which might be by end of year early next year [11:30] VivK Lowlag: if is the word for the moment [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its not like all viewers are cut off [11:30] Arielle Popstar: now it is at the expense of the user experience [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we still have very useable viewers [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i do not think LL is cutting off the source code [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: there are a lot of regions in SL with a LOT of scripts wasting CPU and nobody is there. I dont blame them for trying to reduce it [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes allen i hav eread that to, LL is turning sim down in speed when there's nothing going on in that region [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its just if you want the Havok stuff in your TPV viewer [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: then your project can only connect to LL [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: fly around mainland and watch stats.. its horrible [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: they are not totally cutting off the source codfe [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so its possible we could come up with our own libraries [11:31] Sarah Kline: right [11:31] BlueWall Slade: heh, they do have some lag there [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and maintain a new project [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so its not the end of the world [11:31] BlueWall Slade: it seems to come & go in waves [11:31] Sarah Kline: could be a good thing [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but it could mean some of the bigger proects like Firestorm [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: but, besides i ga,mble on armin, most devs with viewers still aim for SL [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: no longer work with OpenSim [11:32] Arielle Popstar: we c an get the havok stuff if not commercial [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: we will see, it's certainly not a done deal yet [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i really doubt it Arielle [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the free havok is not the full havok package [11:32] Arielle Popstar: read the link [11:32] Allen Kerensky: what deal is that? [11:32] Arielle Popstar: and i know people who are talking about allowing it for opensim [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: the havok library is only really supporting havok pathfinding and the chance of opensim getting havok pathfinding are pretty nil I would think [11:32] Allen Kerensky: what did LL sort of announce today? [11:32] VivK Lowlag: if you look back at the track record of when they announce to the point it's implemented it maybe some time before it happens [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: a tpv having to disable login to any non-sl grid if they sign up to ship a havok dll [11:33] Allen Kerensky: ugh [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its not been announced today, but last night I was speaking with Maxwell Graf [11:33] Allen Kerensky: closed source for the fail [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: so i guess thats around 90% of the viewes !? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and he brought it up to me [11:33] BlueWall Slade: is there a working mesh encoder in OpenSource? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: he is a very active person in SL [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: probably one of the best builders in SL right now [11:33] Allen Kerensky: Cool VL Viewer uploads mesh [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: well, all this is nothing new [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: cant stand that name. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no, its not new [11:34] Allen Kerensky: i am sure many others do [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but he was telling me that there are things LL is working on that are coming soon [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: we knew this stuff was being discussed when the draft havok agreement was published [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: that they have not announced yet [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: ya they have some sekrit stuff in the works Im sure. They like to do that ;) [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i only know LL is wroking on the gameing tools.. [11:35] Allen Kerensky: so all the new pathfinding is being offloaded to client - might be a simple way to API around it and use some other A* library [11:35] BlueWall Slade: I would think that the SL opensource channels would be flooded with discussions about it already [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes, alot of the stuff is to make SL more game platform friendly [11:35] Allen Kerensky: have to see what they really release first [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya, this stuff is not all going to hit all at once [11:35] Dahlia Trimble: the pathfinding is not client side, visualizing the navigation mesh is a client feature. pathfinding doesnt really need it [11:35] Allen Kerensky: the LSL calls are not even stable yet [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: were talking about lots of differnt things happening over many months, the next year should be interesting, and don't get me wrong, I personally do not think its a bad thing [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: time to build a shelter, and be prepared for soem bumps [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I'm not sure how much stuff gets out in the open nowadays - the ll opensource-dev list is pretty quiet nowadays [11:36] Arielle Popstar: and then there is the backward compatibility aspect sllowing them down [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: and there are possible alternatives to visualizing a navigation mesh without havok libraries [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it all depends on what things this bavok stuff does [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: so in simple way, LL demand firestorm to agree with new TPV. or you get lots os noise in sl. and some other viewers is the same [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: as dahlia says, I'm not sure it's possible to move physics client side under this model [11:37] Allen Kerensky: and what is to stop a TPV from having/shipping 2 forks - one with havok and no non-SL login, and a havokless one with all grid logins? [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: LL really needs to do some pretty drastic stuff if they are to survive [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so none of this should really be too shocking [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: I think that's what firestorm are discussing with ll [11:37] Arielle Popstar: thought their profits were so high? [11:37] BlueWall Slade: they started downhill when they killed OGP [11:37] Allen Kerensky: yeah seems reasonable tack to me [11:37] BlueWall Slade: :) [11:37] Allen Kerensky: and yes I miss VWRAP [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that certainly could happen Allen, but in the past and present, Firestorm has not been very Pro OpenSimulator [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: their focus has always been SL first [11:38] BlueWall Slade: VWRAP was just talk OGP was real [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSimulator way down on the list [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: Agree with justing, if the move phyics to client. to fix 1 problem and create a new one [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey shouts: nebadon: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/alternative-sl-clients/71511-tpv-havok-threatens-future-opensim-6.html#post1561879 [11:38] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I guess most of the TPV don't care about OpenSim at all [11:38] Allen Kerensky: physics in client would be a mess as far as synchronization unless they moved to a p2p update model - and that's a security nightmare [11:38] Sarah Kline: cant blame them really SL has far greater userbase [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i always cring someone someone posts a sluniverse link [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: so firestorm apparantly are saying that they will provide two versions of firestorm, one for ll and another for opensim [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: gotta get on my drama hat [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:39] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey shrugs [11:39] Sarah Kline: lol [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well thats good then [11:39] Allen Kerensky: other TPVs may follow suit as long as LL doesn't block it [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: they certainly have enough people involved to make it happen [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: some of the smaller projects, hard to say which direction they will go [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: the 1 man bands [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: "Sarah Kline: cant blame them really SL has far greater userbase" LOL, 60000 bots ? [11:40] VivK Lowlag: what's the possibility Bullet be up and running before the changes? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: low [11:40] Sarah Kline: that would be nice [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say, Intel seems distracted with other things [11:40] Allen Kerensky: just needs willing devs [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I tried bullet last night on a region load and it blew up on startup [11:40] Sarah Kline: shame i saw some super demos [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: really thats odd Justin [11:40] BlueWall Slade: what is better about bullet over ODE? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: heh, doesn't everything [11:41] BlueWall Slade: is ODE broken in some way? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: threading for one bluewall [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: well the 1 man hands can betetr follow opensim. thats not changeing so fast [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is single thread [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: bullet apprantly performs better [11:41] Allen Kerensky: nodnod Justin sad but true - never enough geniuses around when you want em [11:41] VivK Lowlag: Hi Andrew [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: with my testing i can get around 400-500 physical spheres and it crashes hard [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Hi, VivK [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: stack trace [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: in Bullet i can get 4000-5000 [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and it doesnt crash, it just becomes so lagged its unuseable [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: are the 64bit problem more ironed out of opensim. or still can expect red lines ? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet handles memory and threading much better [11:42] BlueWall Slade: ok [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: its not limited to 1 core like ODE is [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Did it again. PDA beeped to remind me of meeting and got distracted before I could get here and almost forgot all about the meeting [11:42] Allen Kerensky: really need something with more OpenCL/CUDA integration too =) [11:42] BlueWall Slade: how baout the "engines" inside? [11:42] BlueWall Slade: they're comparible? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: from what I hear OpenCL is just not very doable [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and CUDA, also hard to say [11:42] Allen Kerensky: just mentioned it since AMD is pretty opensource friendly [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: PhysX is possible [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet is way more popular than all of those combined though [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: How is Bullet coming along these days? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of Video game exposure [11:43] Allen Kerensky: Bullet worked fine for my lightly loaded regions when I used it a few months ago just to see [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet should work, but there are issues with Avatar movement [11:44] Allen Kerensky: i need to enable it on my kids grid to give it a real workout [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: does not support physical linksets yet [11:44] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: also Hollows are not 100% [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: mega prims can be wierd [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: it needs quite a bit of work before it can be a full on ODE replacement [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but performance and stability are great [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly just funcitonality at this point [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i have had a very difficult time making bullet crash though [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ODE i can make crash quite easily [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: 1 parameter [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: also ODE seems to use a lot more memory [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: but i think its more some missing protection between opensim and ode. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: almost 10 times more memory than bullet [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: when doing prim drops [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, unfortunateloy for me it cashes on starutp [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is odd [11:46] Sarah Kline: it was ok for me [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: do you recall the crash message? [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: stack traces [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't record them unfortunately, I may go back and do that [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but a problem that reaches into the native code [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok, ya i will have to try again myself [11:46] Sarah Kline: I think i got some red stuff but it carried on loading ) [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest I have not done enough testing on Linux with it [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: though it probably originate opensim-side [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i did most of my testing on windows in standalone [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: you were testing on windows? [11:47] BlueWall Slade: does Bullet run on 64 bit Linux? [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, that would be a difference [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have tested it on linux, but not as much as on windows [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: yes, that's where I was crashing [11:47] Sarah Kline: hi Doro [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: but it could be due to the speicfic region load in this case [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: it should run on Linux, we did spend some time fixing that up [11:47] Dorothea Lundquist: hi Sarah and hi all :) [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but perhaps something is wrong again recently [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dorothea [11:47] Arielle Popstar: H Dorothea [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its been a month or more since I tried [11:47] BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hasn't changed a lot recently [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi doro [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly not within the month [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i need to get Virtualbox up and running on my new machien [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: so i can get some linux vm's rolling [11:48] Allen Kerensky: Fedora 17 "Beefy Miracle" is out with some new KVM virtualization bits in it I want to check out this week [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: we seem to be getting a lot of lag spikes here today [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: more than usual [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: this is running git master btw [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i updated about 30 minutes before meeting [11:49] BlueWall Slade: I have noticed TP taking a little longer than normal [11:49] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev         b660c49: 2012-05-29 18:18:47 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:49] Arielle Popstar: ages to log in sometimes [11:49] BlueWall Slade: had one fail earlier [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: does KVM do 3d acceleration yet? [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:49] Allen Kerensky: not sure - I mostly do text console stuff with it - sorry [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i don't have any experience with KVM [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: linux + mono lost here :O [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: KVM usually gives direct access to hardware [11:50] Arielle Popstar: inventory takes forever to load on any region but the plazas [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so i imagine if any of them do, KVM probably does [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: only one Ive seen so far is virtualbox [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ive had done almost no virtualization as linux with the base [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: its all been on windows for me [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: the virtualbox 3d acceleration is pretty limited too [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it only works with Windows VM's [11:51] BlueWall Slade: I have a 32 bit VB for building viewers running on Linux [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: no linux support for it yet [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: Ive played games in windows running in virtualbox on linux host, it worked pretty well but SL is really slow [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: VM's are nice. but it seems VB with windows, then bridge only works with dhcp [11:52] BlueWall Slade: I just build them on it, then scp to the 64 bit host [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: Och dahlia, windows in VM thats slow [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: bridge is the best method for networking in virtualbox [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: everthing else is a real pain in the ass [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: some games worked quite well RIchardus [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: under linux yes, with windows it still give me headaces becuase i always used a static ip [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: you can use static IP in bridge [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i do it all the time [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: it fails here, i lose the gateway etc. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: you need to manually enter all that yourself [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: its getting somewhere terrible wrong [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i do, i can dream that. it fails its trying to use soem host ip data [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: so when i have time i try it the right way, assign static ip from router dhcp [11:54] Arielle Popstar: any reasons for the long log in times recently? [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wat. i think the VM cannot handle different gateway then the host. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I have not noticed any change Arielle, so i can not say [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: logging in here today seemed fine for me [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: long log ? [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: ohh ... [11:55] Arielle Popstar: ibeen ngitorres [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: from the log I see one client is making continual requiests for the same mesh for some reason [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: not seen any problems. only think linux server a bit faster with TP then windows [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: do you have a lot of HG friends on your friends list? [11:55] Arielle Popstar: seeing it for a few weeks now [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I need to add ip information to 'show circuits' [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: you cant see wich viewer ? [11:55] Arielle Popstar: no [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: uh [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: thats Arielle Justin [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: making those requests [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps thats part of your problem Arielle [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your wearing mesh stuff? [11:56] Arielle Popstar: whats that? [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: mesh clothing [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: man: we have too many different commands :) [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: mesh cap, shirt, pants ? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your avatar appears to be making lots of spew on the sim console [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: about a mesh [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: your probably wearing [11:56] Arielle Popstar: i dont think so but if i have mesh then its only the last day i been wearing this ouutfit [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. I thought of one thing I can mention that others might be interested in [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its very possible this is why maybe your seeing long log in times [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and were not [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: somethign your wearing [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: so on eye i dont see any mesh :O [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: would need to test that theory [11:57] Arielle Popstar: the slow logins been happening for a while and i am not the only one [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not sure, this is first I am hearing about it [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and like I said, have not experience it myself [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: could be a geographical issue [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: where in the world are you Arielle? [11:58] Arielle Popstar: canada [11:58] Arielle Popstar: ontario] [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: well, for some reason your viewer is continually requesting the same mesh from the simulator [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i see slow logs with zen as example and sl2 viewers. arielle can you try sometime tyo log with sl1 ? and see if that works fatser [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle: YOu are in the same general area as me [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: but i have not always slow logs [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: singularity seems to work fine or i dont notice [11:59] Arielle Popstar: on phoenix 1.60 [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is its something network related, but I can not be 100% certain of that [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I am very close to the servers [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: so could be why i never experience it [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: network latency and packet loss could play a big factor though [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: even the simulators your logging into could play a factor [12:00] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:00] Arielle Popstar: and i see ping at 2100 atm [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: like when I log in to Avination [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: stuff is very very slow for me [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but all those servers are in france [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: 2100ms would be unusable [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: im like 6000 miles from the servers [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:01] Arielle Popstar: i am standing still ;) [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: high ping means most times its still loading the sim [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I've started to convert the Visual Basic test program for Warp3D to C# so we can have a way to test/debug Warp3D and make it easy/easier to get to the bottom of its bugs and memory leaks. [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: your getting 2100ms ping right now Arielle? [12:01] BlueWall Slade: so, if the viewer were performing part of the simulation - where would that leave the rest of the users in the sim? [12:01] Arielle Popstar: 4133 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: dang [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well thats your problem [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: no wonder [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: nice andrew i love it (on windwos) [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i am surprised you can even get logged in [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: with it that high [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: to do snything like that would need massive protocol and arch changes. I find it very hard to see that happening [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: arielle, you have bandwidth in viewer not higher then 500 ? [12:02] Arielle Popstar: Neb, the slow loging have been happening for a few weeks....my pink isually around 122 to the plazas [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: 750 works fine to, but preffer 500 still [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i am getting like 50-60ms right now [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ping which machine? [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm in Ontario Canada if you want another ping time [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: what is your ping currently Andrew? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: and have you seen long log in times? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its viewer related [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: what viewer are you using Arielle? [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: phoenix 1.6.0 i think neb [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: I didn't have long log in to here today. What should I try pinging? [12:03] Arielle Popstar: i use different viewer regularly though mostly phoenix [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: oh the ping in the viewer andrew [12:04] Arielle Popstar: also zen, singularity [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ctrl+shift+1 [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: sure you dont ahve a bad wire arielle ? [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortunately I do not have any good answer right now Arielle [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: honestly this is the 1st I am hearing of it [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: no one else has mentioned it to me [12:04] logger sewell: I'm running about 70 to 75 with imp [12:05] Arielle Popstar: ok [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon oh [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: let me pull up the states [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: 185ms [12:05] Arielle Popstar: i have heard some others mention it in lbsa and some friends elsewhere too [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: 190ms [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: 160ms here. but i need to cross a whole ocean [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: bouncing between those two [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya well its not suprising [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: the internet is a fickle beast [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: some days its great, others it sucks [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid will never be 100% perfect all the time for everyone [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: the downside of a fully open self hosting grid [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: also sl is not 100% perfect.. [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes its just going to suck [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: 50% of the time its outside of our control [12:06] Arielle Popstar: i started seeing more and more problems since the release after the one in early march [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa is probably going to be worse than most places especially [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: am still suprissed that apache got nuts this week nebadon [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: you could have 4-5 people logging in simultaneously [12:07] Arielle Popstar: i still tend to revert to that one when running my regions [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: in which case, its not going to be as fast as it would if only 1 person were logging in [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i find that when an avatar logs out or teleports away [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: it can be pretty harsh too [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: "" Niran’s viewer: return of the sidebar"" brrr. but its not so bad as sounds i think [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: there is no side bar in Nirans [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and do some stuff. [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: kk Justin [12:08] Arielle Popstar: oh should mention that it is especially apparent on relogins after a crash [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: See you guys around. [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: soon it is http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/nirans-viewer-return-of-the-sidebar/ [12:08] logger sewell: tc Justin [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Man, my frame rate sucks [12:08] BlueWall Slade: you can install "mtr" to help test your network [12:08] Dorothea Lundquist: Bye Justin [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: 5.5fps [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ah Arielle, now that I have seen [12:08] Arielle Popstar: tc Justin [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: infact sometimes after I crash [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: the next login fails completely [12:08] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: that is normal [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and not new [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, I've seen strange things like that [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: my idea is that coms between regions are going sometimes still wrong. [12:09] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves [12:09] Allen Kerensky: Arielle it can take 1-10 mins for TCP connections to time out which can affect relogin I think [12:09] Arielle Popstar: didnt used to be