Chat log from the meeting on 2012-07-03

[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: well, knowing if there are high physics times would help [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya its actually ok if we have less than 15 avatars [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: if not, then you could proabbly rule out physics [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: once we cross a certain threshold of avatars [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: it just explodes [11:44] BlueWall Slade: Hello Dahlia [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: everyone complains prims are not loading [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: cant see any avatars [11:44] BlueWall Slade: those stats should give some clues too. [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: It wouldn't enormously surprise me if some other process is soaking up all the sim time [11:44] BlueWall Slade: and you can use the in-world debugginh things [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: like lots of invalid group requests or something [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but why doesnt Lbsa do it [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we can have 40 avatars on lbsa [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: same box [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I do not know [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: never ever once has done it on Lbsa [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but everytime we use Bade it happens [11:45] Bea Witched: flying isn't allowed on lbsa so height is restricted [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: 4-5 meetings in a row it happened [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: finally we just moved it here for first time this month [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we had 25 avatars [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: stats were perfect [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: literally no lag [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: you would think if any region was going to have issues [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it would be this one [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: bade has no neighbors [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: its completely isolated [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: low prim, low scripts [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: so bizzare [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: thats same as with my physical train test (i stopped with that) 1 train no timeings. when i rezz aseconds train phyics time jump up to 180,ms. like am used toin the past with 1 train [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: well, not seeing objects is often a synptom of bad network comms [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: object update packets being completely dropped and the resend system failing [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya this felt more like a hung thread or something [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and the only thing i can really pinpoint and say its completely different than the other plazas [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: is that we meet above 100m above ground [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: i wish group IM did not be handles by region. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise nothing is different [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: anyway i wasnt looking for a solution [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i just wanted to present the idea [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try to gather more info [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: object updates dropping? is this a prim/texture heave region? [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: *heavy [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: no Dahlia, its quite low prims low textures [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its maybe 7000 prims [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: few 100 textures maybe [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: so much for that idea :/ [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive tried everyting i could think of [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i literally inspected every script on the sim [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i went through the database [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: and located every script [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure it wasnt some kind of visitor scanner or something [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: some kind of radar [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt find any heavy scripts [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: its all like sit scripts and hover text [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: also checked for lost AO's and other objects people lose ? [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i couldnt find anything unusual [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: thats not on all the other plazas [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, any other opensim topics anybody wants to bring up today? [11:50] Mike Kayaker: I have a question about timers... [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm I dont think I have anything else myself [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: shoot Mike [11:51] Mike Kayaker: I seem to be running into a script resource I don't understand [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: well justin like i sayed in mailinmglist. new version seems to work betetr. sofar i have doen tests on the sim no crashing anymore [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: I need advice on adding properties to SOG [11:51] Mike Kayaker: If I have a bunch of scripts running that all have a short (1 second timer) [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: like for pathfincing, whether an object is a walkable [11:51] Mike Kayaker: the FPS starts to drop [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: how it affects database and oars [11:52] Mike Kayaker: I want to have two kinds of timers I guess, [11:52] Mike Kayaker: those that I care if the timer is on time, [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: strange mike. i have used 0.5s timers (no llSLeep) and never seen frame drops [11:52] Mike Kayaker: and others that I don't care [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: I would find it very surprising if fps drops due to script timers [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: unless you're using hundereds and hundreads of them and never removing them [11:53] Mike Kayaker: Is there some way I can allow the don't care timers to volunteer to be time sliced? [11:53] Mike Kayaker: like calling llSleep(.0001) or something? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: llSLeep.00001) never works [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there is a limit how low sleep can go [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: use not_at_target for a per-frame event [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: its 0.01? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: or 0.05? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember [11:54] Mike Kayaker: Well, of cource I do a vector calculation and a resize or something on every tick [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its even less [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: fastest i have seen is around 0.01 maby but i resits to use llSLeep at all. only in rare cases [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: smallest sleep would be 1ms (0.001) [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: hrmm i ok didnt think it went that far [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i thought it was 0.01 [11:54] Mike Kayaker: but not-at-target would slow down as the FPS goes down... [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: i agree with nebadon. i have not seen any difference betwen 0.01 and lower [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: why would you want to update anything faster than frame rate? [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: at_target stuff. thats still so unreliable for me [11:55] Mike Kayaker: Actully, I don't care how long the slep sleeps, just want timers on the other side of the sim to stay accurate when have a lot of ddon't care timers running [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. In fact, anything less than 0.001 will get trunacated to 0, no sleep at all [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: I wouldn't be surprised if timers are not very accurate atm [11:56] Mike Kayaker: thing is, I build one item, timers work good enough, [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the way they operate is somewhat inaccurate [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Justin, timers, sensors, at_target are never 100% save for me [11:56] Dahlia Trimble: its not a real-time simulation running on a real-time os [11:56] BlueWall Slade: working on some stuff a couple of months back - looks like the events priority is burried below other things [11:56] Mike Kayaker: then I rez a bunch of the item, and things get very strange [11:57] BlueWall Slade: at_target was delayed for a long time [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: not at_target, use not_at_target *note underscores* [11:57] BlueWall Slade: when it finally showed up (way past the target point) it spammed the output pretty bad with many lines [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is timers are run on the same loop as a lot of other lsl stuff [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: if there's a lot going on then I suspect they could be delayed [11:58] Mike Kayaker: What resoure am I using up that causes the timers to slow down? [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: and minimum timer resolution on this loop is 100ms [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: lsl is to bad not really multitasking [11:59] Dahlia Trimble: any event has to be queued anyway [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: url listeners, sensors, dataserver requets [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: and yes, then there's a delay/inaccuracy with timer event queueing [11:59] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev         1f34c82: 2012-06-13 04:05:02 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: i use sensor(s0 to, but the maby get called once every second or longer [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect this area could be improved [12:01] Mike Kayaker whispers: So is there a way to do a lag-friendly timer? Like get a timer evey second, but not slow down other scripts if the sim is buisy? [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: probably not if the sim is busy [12:01] Mike Kayaker: I mean, a timer that does allow itself to get slowed down, so other timers will not get delayes. [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm really not sure where the slow down is happening [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: Mike TimerEvent is possible most save, but not reliable if you ned to have strict timeings [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: this would require rearchitecting the way that timers are handled [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly so they sit on a separate thread rather than with every other event [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: or even setup actual system resource timers [12:02] Mike Kayaker: Every timer event in my sim starts getting delays. [12:02] BlueWall Slade: when we can build on C# 5.0 we should do that anyway [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: Mike, do you have physics on the sim ? [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: given that all events are queued I'd say its near impossible [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: well this doesn't need c# 5.0, bluewall [12:03] Mike Kayaker: Yes, but nothing physical rezzed [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: ehh ? [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: phsiscal but not physical. [12:03] Mike Kayaker: The sim has ODE, but I don't have any physical objects in the sim ATM [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: ok, thats what i mean [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: its a dedicated server ? not VPS ? [12:04] Mike Kayaker: Im not sure, VPS??? [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I'd like to answer dahlia quickly before she disappearas [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: go justin [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: at the moment, extended sog is difficult. In fact, my favourite solution would be to serialize a separate piece of data to the region, a bit like the moap xml [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: the alternative is to add more hard coded fields to prims or primshapes [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: ewwww [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: its a SOG property [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: which has to be persisted? [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: yes [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I know, unofrutnately there is no separate table for sogs [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: ok how about to a prim with parent id of 0? [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: if it was a serialization one could conceivably add it to the root prim only [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: so SOP then? [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: when you stat serializating properties you get into the expense of that, thuogh I personally don't think it's a huge issue [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is putting this stuff on the region itself [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: you have to have a field in the regions db tables [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: if I add one how do I handle migrations and oars? [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: you can add a migration like the existing ones to add an extra field. Serialization covers oars, inventory, attachment teleports, etc. [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: kk [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: that needs an explicit change to the serialization/deser code in OpenSim/Region/Frametwork/Scene/Serialization/SceneObjectSerializer [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I would ask that this isn't put directly into master in case there are any issues - something in a branch could be more easily checkable [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: I'll ask you in IRC before adding anything [12:11] Dahlia Trimble: anyway it would be fields that LL is adding but I dont think they use the normal protocols to share them with viewers [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I would certainly like the opportunity to think about the future data format [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: using caps instead of udp? [12:12] BlueWall Slade: does OAR get the V3 environment settings ATM ? [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I don;'t think so [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: looks more like some proprietary havok encoding [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: over caps [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: uhhhhhhh :) [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: ya [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: brrr, havok :) [12:13] Dahlia Trimble: but still the properties need to exist [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: well, maybe they could just be new fields - that would just be historical practice after all [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: just a bit of a pita [12:14] Dahlia Trimble: need a process for this kind of thing [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and get some stuff done [12:14] Dahlia Trimble: bye :) [12:14] BlueWall Slade: bye Justin [12:14] Bea Witched: be well Justin [12:14] Dahlia Trimble: me too lol... bye all :) [12:15] Mike Kayaker: thnks all [12:15] BlueWall Slade: bye Dahlia [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: do you ever compile opensim or do you stick wityh binaries? [12:15] Mike Kayaker: binaries [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: see you guys [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming [12:15] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:15] Bea Witched: ty have a good day all [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I was going to suggest a tweakable paramter but I'm not sure how much it would help [12:15] BlueWall Slade: I need to take off too - take care all [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe I should expose it as a config thing [12:15] Mike Kayaker: next time [12:16] Richardus Raymaker: bye blue [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: l [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: k [12:16] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves