Chat log from the meeting on 2010-03-09

[11:00] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[11:00] Entering god mode, level 255

[11:01] Tesira Luco is Offline

[11:01] Nebadon Tester is Online

[11:07] Nebadon Tester is Offline

[11:07] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/(OKC)%20Fu/175/49/22

[11:07] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details.

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hey guys

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: sorry im late

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: chaos

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: so what do folks think of this open metaverse currency?

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hi neb

[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh goody, new spacebux. :/ Hehe.

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh i think its a legal nightmare

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim chaos or ordinary chaos? :)

[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hmm JCC, i think i missed something. open meta currency ? sounds intressting

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid will never be able to support any currency

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: unfortuantly

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i cant really comment

[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: I wouldn't call it unfortunate...

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2010/03/in-world-payments-come-to-opensim-grids/

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: according to our attorneys they dont really even want us to allow its use inside of osgrid at all

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: but thats not settled yet

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just curious :)

[11:09] Leslea Aldrin: i would think that not having currency is one of the beautiful things about opensim... imho

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: the attorneys think it would put value on products inside this grid

[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Good point

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so they really want us to blanket ban the use of it all together inside this grid

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hey penny. Can't sit still, eh? :)

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but im not real happy about that

[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: im not settling for that as the end all decision

[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: yes. i think better copy protecting is more important then some money

[11:10] Master Dubrovna: agreed

[11:10] Penny Lane: JCC: I made the mistake of trying to use the Windows gaming box for an SL login. Wishful thinking.

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but at this point i really dont know, i can say OSgrid wont ever support it

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: whatever we decided

[11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: That's fine

[11:11] Marc User: ' EVENING

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: hi marc

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if changes make it into core we will have no choice but to support those changes

[11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Aside from land and maybe some services money is probably better left out of things

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but the money systems themselves we can not sponsor

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: are these things decided by the osgrid core team or in some open format somewhere

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: or help people set it up

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: nah, that will never make it into core

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: right now it comes down to the Corp Officers

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: Adam, Myself and Dave Coyle

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I thought the system acted indepedently of the core services though, from what I was reading briefly about it

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: correct

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but the attorneys are arguing that we are allowing the system to operate

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so we are essentially part of it

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: even though we dont host it

[11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: That seems a bit dangerous precedent in itself.

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and they are making a good case i must say

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but im not happy about it

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and I sure Adam will fight it more

[11:13] Leslea Aldrin: what if it happens and you cant control it? how can you be responsible?

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have much fight in me for that topic

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant say id be happy with a blanket ban

[11:13] ARADTech KoolKam: doesnt the selling of regions and land already give value to the contents of the grid ?

[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, take your time working it all out as you need. No rush

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: well

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it would be in world only

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: they did agree to web based services

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not tied into in world

[11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Land can be done with real money or web-based pretty easily.

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya as long as your not buying credits in world

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: then using those credits to pay

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will likely be allowed

[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: V$ money ?

[11:14] ARADTech KoolKam: we have a marketplace setup for osgrid at http://osgrid.avatarmarketplace.com

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: V$ you dont buy in world

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: nor do you buy with USD$

[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: ok. clear

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: that i know of

[11:14] Melanie Milland is Online

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: is that both buying and using credits in-world banned, or just one or the other?

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: you trade L$ fo V$

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: just buying credits in world

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: is myunderstanding

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: any level of banking

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: will be prohibitied

[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: whats G$ ?

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: but buying via the web interface would be okay?

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it doesnt give in world credits you spend

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: even if that web interface was presented in-world (i.e. shared media)

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: thats something else

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: if its in a web browser

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: we cant stop that

[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: You really only need in-world currency for very tiny purchases, like L$25 or something. For anything much larger USD or other currency should be just fine

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ah okay, so the money system would have to be entirely indepedent of the L$ sign in the top-rigth?

[11:15] Penny Lane: Isn't there a bad assumption being made, that use and choice of currency is a matter for the world operator? That's an odd centralist idea. Currency is a medium of exchange between any two parties, a vendor and a buyer, and the world doesn't actually have much to do with it. Don't get confused by LL's precedent.

[11:16] ARADTech KoolKam: yes ours is

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: correct Justin

[11:16] Adelle Fitzgerald is Online

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: you cant operate as a credit bank

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: in OSG

[11:16] ARADTech KoolKam: ours is script based

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly

[11:16] ARADTech KoolKam: no modules

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I think that's exactly what the osgrid attornys are saying

[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: and if you control the web money with hud. to pick one option.

[11:16] Penny Lane: JCC: good to hear.

[11:16] Melanie Milland: what is the issue with using the viewer's "buy" and L$ ability?

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: currency is okay but not via centralized mechanisms or bought directly via in-world objects?

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: what i dont want though is a blank ban on doing business

[11:16] Melanie Milland: i missed the start...

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: blanket ban

[11:17] John Hurliman is Online

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: oh just discussing the whole Currency in OSgrid dilema

[11:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: sorry im late, one of my servers borked on em

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: why we might have to ban it in certain forms

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is Federal Regulators

[11:17] Melanie Milland: but what does presentation to the user (e.g. using the viewer's own mechanism) have to do with it?

[11:17] Penny Lane: When you choose to "buy" something, that should be made with reference to a currency service. It's not related to the world at all. There can be N currency services, and there will be large N.

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: will be on us like flys on poo if banks start poping up on this grid

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: cant operate as a bank

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: cant ssell credits you spend

[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably shouldn't allow banks, regardless of a ban or not

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh yeah, you really don't want the same bank problems as ll had back in the day :)

[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: In-world bank = bad. SL already went through that

[11:18] ARADTech KoolKam: you can operate as a exchange but not a bank

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: there are US federaql regulations that prevent OSgrid from allowing this

[11:18] Penny Lane: It's nothing to do with banking, it's token exchange.

[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: webbased payments is more secure to for opensim

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if your banking credits

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it does

[11:19] Melanie Milland: i'm not being heard here :(

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: LL had same issues

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: they shut down banks

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: oh sorry ml

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: let me read back

[11:19] Melanie Milland: why is there a perceived issue with using the viewer's mecahnisms?

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i found another problem with this newq hippo

[11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: I think I see what you mean.

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Chat history

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: goes off the screen

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i cant retreive it

[11:19] Melanie Milland: neb, ctrl-h works for me

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i had to just minimize the window

[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: The currency displayed by the viewer kind of ends up being a bank since it's stored

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: and resize the window so it was large enough i could see the history window

[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: That about right?

[11:20] Penny Lane: Melanie: because the viewer's mechanism assumes a centralized currency for the world, when it doesn't have to have anything to do with the world. And WORSE, it would place liability on a world to make it a world service.

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: refresh me mind nebadon. did that happen before or after the casino shutdown. i think i have seen it happen to with banks in sl

[11:20] Melanie Milland: i don't think so

[11:20] ARADTech KoolKam: what if we are not using the viewer system

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt distinguish the currency is for that region only

[11:20] Melanie Milland: it's wholly controlled by the region

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes but we cant explain that to folks

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: us explaining that

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: is us supporting it

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we cant

[11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Ok, I can see their point. And while not ideal, it is a rather good argument

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we cant make any mention of that mel

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: anywhere on the website

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not obvious in the standard ui - people will assume it's centrally controleld like ll

[11:21] Penny Lane: Liability for vendor-buyer relationship rests with the parties concerned. If you place that liability on the world providers, VW provision becomes embroiled in impossible problems.

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: also

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it will put value on objects in our asset server

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: this we can not allow

[11:22] Melanie Milland: it would not. depends on how it's done

[11:22] ARADTech KoolKam: thats already happening wiht v$

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: in our TOS you will agree none of your assets have value on this grid

[11:22] Melanie Milland: fact is

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: better use terminals on the region then. more secure to

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: john: love the avatar

[11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: But V$ is a separate system. There's only value if you deal in V$

[11:22] ARADTech KoolKam: yes we use terminals

[11:22] Melanie Milland: our roleplay system will not come to this grid if it is not possible for us to use he viewer's currency mechainesm withint he context of our regions

[11:23] ARADTech KoolKam: ok so as long as the system is a differnt system there is no value ?

[11:23] ARADTech KoolKam: I mean we are not allowed to have value for our currreny

[11:23] ARADTech KoolKam: they are like game tokens in arcad

[11:23] Penny Lane: Melanie: LL doesn't control the future of Opensim

[11:23] ARADTech KoolKam: arcade

[11:23] Leslea Aldrin: why is it considered part of usa regulation?

[11:23] Melanie Milland: what does LL have to do with it?

[11:23] John Hurliman: thanks justin

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well nothings settled yet

[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Game tokens is probably a good way of putting it, yes

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: so dont anyone panic just yet

[11:24] Melanie Milland: i see this as a needsless restriction on using features that create convenience for users

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of research needs being done

[11:24] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: these are all just initial stuff from lawyers

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: typical

[11:24] ARADTech KoolKam: thats how we make ours as game tokens no value to us

[11:24] Melanie Milland: a technical restriction that we can't work with

[11:24] ARADTech KoolKam: we had laywers tell us how to set it up

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya but we have to remember too OSgrid is a non-profit

[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: It's not pleasant, but neither is some of the laws and taxes in the real world.

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: even appearing to be making profits is bad

[11:24] ARADTech KoolKam: so that we didnt get in trouble

[11:24] Melanie Milland: osgrid is not involved

[11:24] Penny Lane: Melanie: you're saying to use the viewer's currency handling, which at the present time is defined by LL as a centralized service provided by the world operator. Of course we could define it as a decoupled service, but that has not happened yet.

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: you and I know that Melanie

[11:25] ARADTech KoolKam: its none profit for the owners

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but for me to convince a judge and attorneys of that

[11:25] ARADTech KoolKam: not for the users

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: is not cheap

[11:25] ARADTech KoolKam: people make profits on regions already

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: so unless your gonna write m a blank check for law sergvices

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno what to say really

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: that's the ll mechanism but I think Melanie is sasying there's no technical reason why it couldn't be managed by individual regions instead

[11:25] Melanie Milland: well, obviously, if your balance is only there when you're in our regions

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i am doing my best though

[11:25] Melanie Milland: that kinda gets the point across

[11:25] John Hurliman: so... how about that group support in opensim master :)

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya lets no over-react to much

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: like i said

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: this is just intial lawyering

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: nothigns final

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: john: oooh, ooh?

[11:25] Strawberry Fride: oo that would be lovely John

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its just my hands are tied financially

[11:26] ARADTech KoolKam: just make sur your lawyers are right cause we have spent a fortune to make sure we setup correct

[11:26] WhiteStar Magic is Online

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: so im going to be very protective

[11:26] John Hurliman: justin: it was a rhetorical question. you know the answer

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: of what could damage this grid

[11:26] ARADTech KoolKam: this grid isnt none profit for users

[11:26] Melanie Milland: i think it's wrong to disallow a part of the protocol wholly between a region and a viewer

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya we will

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey thinks John overestimates his intelligence

[11:26] Penny Lane: JCC: it has nothing to do with individual regions though. When two visitors from two difference worlds arrive in a 3rd world and decide to buy/sell from each other, the idea that the transaction has to be done through the region's currency service makes no sense.

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: the laywers even agreed they dont know for sure

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: they are reasearching it still

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: we are as well

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: lots to figure out still

[11:26] Melanie Milland: the data doesn't even pass through osgrid's servers

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: this is all so new

[11:27] John Hurliman: justin: ?

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: no but the items that you are paying for do

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: thats the problem

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: doesn't it? Wouldn't it be like the currencies of two different countries

[11:27] Leslea Aldrin: private financial interactions are totally separate from the grid

[11:27] Melanie Milland: neb, not in our system

[11:27] ARADTech KoolKam: correct usng a vendor system that is region set with a hud for account stats

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: john: It's a rhetorical questio nto which I don't know the rhetorical answer :)

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: regardless your system will be 1 of 1000's

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i cant assume becasue yours is

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: everyones is

[11:27] John Hurliman: justin: oh hehe. they are broken and not coming back i'm told

[11:27] Melanie Milland: well, all i can say that if we are not allowed to use the viewer's built in "pay" function

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya i really dont know mel

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: john: er, what? Who says that?

[11:27] Melanie Milland: then the rp systtem will not come here

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: thats not 100% for sure

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ok thats good to know melanie

[11:28] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: infact

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: if you could

[11:28] Penny Lane: JCC: exactly. It's always the vendor's currency service that matters, although the vendor is of course free to accept other currencies. Bringing the region into the transaction makes no sense at all though.

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: please send me your reasonsings why to michael@osgird.org

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i can forward to attorneys

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: infact that goes for anyone here

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: send me your reasons

[11:28] John Hurliman: melanie: what is the status of groups in opensim master (justin is askin)?

[11:28] Dahlia Trimble: hi

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia

[11:29] John Hurliman: hello

[11:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Dahlia

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: id love to know why everyone thinks Currency is important

[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: hope you mean osgrid.org. to correct it.

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: the more importance i can put on it

[11:29] Melanie Milland: our system contains a number, yet secret, components that allow a ser of regions to trade items of value, with a self-contained currency, that doesn't use osgrid assets

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: the more seriously the attonreys will take it

[11:29] ARADTech KoolKam: because people want to buy stuff

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but im not the sales guy for it

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: for me i dont need it

[11:29] ARADTech KoolKam: people like the spend money get things others dont have

[11:29] ARADTech KoolKam: its part of the human condition

[11:29] Melanie Milland: yes

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its hard for me to get real defensive of no currency systems

[11:29] Melanie Milland: and no quality products are free

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: id be fine without them

[11:30] ARADTech KoolKam: business's wnat to buy stuff

[11:30] Leslea Aldrin: is there a way that ppl can use rl money.. and keep all interactions separate from osgrid?

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but i know its important

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: im open to reasoning

[11:30] Melanie Milland: rl money is not granular enough

[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: ARAD, selling things give new problems to, im afraid

[11:30] ARADTech KoolKam: its what makes things commercialy acceptablt

[11:30] Leslea Aldrin: ok

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya i undestand

[11:30] ARADTech KoolKam: everything gives new problems and fix's old problems

[11:30] Melanie Milland: you can't exspress L$5 in rl terms

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and i agree with everything everyone is saying

[11:30] ARADTech KoolKam: this is supposted to be a simulation of life

[11:30] ARADTech KoolKam: life has money

[11:31] ARADTech KoolKam: life has business

[11:31] Melanie Milland: if i sell one experience point per tick extra

[11:31] Penny Lane: For what it's worth (which isn't much in the current context), VWRAP is seeking to decouple all services, and if there is a currency service in the protocol (which is unknown at present), it would certainly be decoupled from the region service. It would be a policy choice how distinct services are coupled together.

[11:31] Melanie Milland: for L$2

[11:31] Leslea Aldrin: why is the money so important? maybe thats a real question? do we really need money to percieve value?

[11:31] Melanie Milland: there is no way i can run a 0.01 cent paypal transaction every 120 seconds

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: leslea: I suspect that's a little too philosophical :)

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: we could have a gift economy instead ;)

[11:31] ARADTech KoolKam: its important to business'cases

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: so, what is the status of groups in opensim master, do you know?

[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: When you need more granularity, that's what stuff like V$ can be for.

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: JustinCC

[11:32] Leslea Aldrin: justin.. and why not?

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: it worked on my test grid

[11:32] Melanie Milland: the groups interface wasn't changed

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but we had other issues

[11:32] Penny Lane: Philosophy is fun, but I'm more interested in how things are implemented, and in the freedom (or lack of) that the implementation provides.

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: that prevents us from doing full testing

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but my intial testing of groups on refactor was it worked ok

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: ah ok, so things aren't being intentionally broken for some reason?

[11:32] Melanie Milland: the flotsam groups should work

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: ok cool

[11:33] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya my initially testing showed it worked

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i was able to make a group

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and invite someone

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: is your latest osgrid distro release on master?

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I assume not?

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: oh no

[11:33] John Hurliman: oh great. last i heard groups were dead in the water, so this is good news

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: our test grid is

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: we have a new grid

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.danger.osgrid.org

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: lol good name

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its not even really ready hardly at all yet

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh, excellent name :D

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: its really bumpy at the moment there

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but were working on smoothing it out a bit

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: love the logo too

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: :)

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, there are a good few bumps to hammer, it seems

[11:35] John Hurliman is Offline

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder if we should put a massive danger notice in master too sometimes

[11:35] Penny Lane: Haha

[11:35] Strawberry Fride: getting better over time though

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe put it on the default 'island' :)

[11:36] Strawberry Fride: oh I have a patch on mantis for mssql if anyone feels generous... (and assuming it still works)...

[11:36] ARADTech KoolKam: hehe I think you guys are the only ones that use mssql :)

[11:36] Strawberry Fride: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4617

[11:37] Strawberry Fride: us and all our client grids

[11:37] ARADTech KoolKam: yes

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I', hoping to do a patch sweep on friday if no-one gets there first

[11:37] Penny Lane: Is Danger the ofificial future test grid, like LL's Aditi?

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: already got a lot of stuff for friday though - look to fix iars, see if there's a better way to configure db, finish the frid user service, etc.

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I really need a clone who can surivie without pay :)

[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: wil the new bump fix the regions dont get visible after restart ?

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey tries to think of another controversial topic

[11:40] Strawberry Fride: lol - stir up the hornets :)

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: bah, I can't think of anything

[11:42] Strawberry Fride: question on groups - if a robustified service emerged for a central groups service, would that be the sort of thing that would go in opensim or would it be preferred external?

[11:42] Leslea Aldrin: poor Justin

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: actually groups may not be as good as we thought

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: were testing right now

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it seems groups might actually be responsible for some of the oddness

[11:42] Melanie Milland: at one time, that was dicussed

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: im not 100% convinces though

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i think the problems started when we loaded these massive oarss

[11:42] Melanie Milland: and it was decided to not make groups a part of core

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: not when we enabeld groups

[11:42] Melanie Milland: groups are veru SL-ish

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: = laggy ?

[11:43] Melanie Milland: then, the groups module was taken into core

[11:43] Melanie Milland: mainly for osg's benefit

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: personally, I don't see why we couldn't have a groups service in core.

[11:43] Melanie Milland: i see no technical reason why not

[11:43] Strawberry Fride: good to know

[11:43] WhiteStar Magic: +1 jcc

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: is in core then so much betetr then a module ?

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: well, there's rarely any _technicak_ reason :)

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: technical, sorry

[11:44] Penny Lane: A Group owner should actually be able to specify a comms service for the group, allowing Jabber or IRC services to be specified. Don't want to get into LL's chat non-scalability mess through being centralized.

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: well at one point we had 2 differnt groups packages being developed

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but as far as I know only Flotsam made it to the end

[11:44] Strawberry Fride: groups for perms vs groups for social...

[11:44] Strawberry Fride: groups for perms would really help

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: problem is flotasm is php

[11:44] Strawberry Fride: yep

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: er, flotsam

[11:44] Strawberry Fride: I can't support php

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya but not all of opensim is C#

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we have C++ modules

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: in core

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: well, that's not really a 'problem' - it would just make it impossible to have as a robust service

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: mmmm, don't think so

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ODE?

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: the source isnt there

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but its C++

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and in core

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. Well, it's third party really so language is kind of irrelevant

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: as you say, no source

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya php itself is source

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: there is no compiled version really

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but ya im not sure its vital it be in core

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: its so stupid easy to setup

[11:46] Penny Lane: Decouple. Everything is a service. Services don't have to be provided by local code, that's not even scalable. They can be external.

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: takes about 2 seconds

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you import 1 .sql file

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I can see lots of xeternal service written in whatever. But I think having reference services in c# at least in core is good

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and edit 1 php file

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and your done

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but you do need apache

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i guess thats the downside

[11:46] Leslea Aldrin: services are relatively easy to compile with external code and not have them be local? i would think

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: no getting around that really

[11:47] Strawberry Fride: you can run php on IIS

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: id say lets develop our own HTTP services

[11:47] Penny Lane: JCC: yep, as a default. For example, if a Group owner doesn't specify an external Jabber or IRC comms service in the group data, it could default to the internal service.

[11:47] Strawberry Fride: but it means extra configuration

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but thats not gone well yet

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: C# http seems subpar

[11:47] Leslea Aldrin: i am thinking of a comparison with irc.. services are always on one of the main hubs.. and no one else runs them

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: for anything more than tinkering

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I think ultimately the c# services are not going to be what you would use for a large grid, tbh

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya same here

[11:48] Penny Lane nods

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: it does make much more sense with apache and something like php - those things have been scaled to death

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:48] Penny Lane: Simply because centralization doesn't scale.

[11:48] Leslea Aldrin: irc services are never on the individual servers.. just on one of the hubs

[11:48] Leslea Aldrin: could that model be explored here?

[11:48] Leslea Aldrin: ugh.. lag.. sorry

[11:49] Penny Lane: Far less comms lag here than in SL :-)

[11:49] Leslea Aldrin: that reduces some of the complexity of having individual servers

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: leslea: not sure what you're saying. I think all such model exploration will carry on outside OpenSim in the future, personally

[11:49] ARADTech KoolKam: Strawberry, just rewrite the php to asp or whatever you want then

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: far fewer users

[11:49] Penny Lane: Aye

[11:49] ARADTech KoolKam: its only really 1 php page

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: and when something is proven to be work someone will either produce a distro with it in or maybe it will get back to core....

[11:50] Leslea Aldrin: justin.. thinking of a model that would mean that things like groups etc would be all on main hub.. and the others would somehow obtain it just by virtue of linking

[11:50] Edie Stewart is Online

[11:50] Leslea Aldrin: i.e. reduction in group problems?

[11:50] Leslea Aldrin: you would need an incredibly robust hub tho\

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: i think group issues are mainly down to bugs in implementation right now

[11:50] Leslea Aldrin: ok

[11:51] Leslea Aldrin: i am sorry... i dont know any of the history... so just tossing things out.. and i shouldnt

[11:51] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[11:51] zaphrod zenovka is Online

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: leslea: heh no problem - but a lot of stuff has been discussed before and it's difficult to talk about unless someone actually does some real coding experimentation

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: imho

[11:52] Leslea Aldrin: nod :) i understand :) i am not trying to be difficult :)

[11:52] Penny Lane: Give group owners the ability to name an external service (and conference room name or channel on it), and all your problems with needing to keep a robust scalable local service disappear.

[11:52] ARADTech KoolKam: sounds like changes to the viewer

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I see John updated libopenmetaverse this week

[11:53] Penny Lane: LL's viewer does not control the future of Opensim

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: anybody tried slviewer 2 with the very latest opensim master?

[11:53] ARADTech KoolKam: not but to stay SL compliant which is one of the golas of os

[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: It is?

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't say that's a goal - it's more like a reality

[11:54] WhiteStar Magic: hmmm

[11:54] Penny Lane: Backwards compliant at most. The future is open-ended, and LL's snail pace won't stop it.

[11:54] ARADTech KoolKam: thats a mantra I hear over and over

[11:54] WhiteStar Magic: +5 Penny

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: if people want LL compliance and as long as we're willing to put it in core then that will happen

[11:54] ARADTech KoolKam: what your saying through penny requires a change in hte viewer

[11:55] ARADTech KoolKam: and not eveyone uses the same viewer

[11:55] ARADTech KoolKam: and for core fucntionality you cant have something that all viewers done use

[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: I tried it 3 times, and its 200% terrible SL2

[11:55] Strawberry Fride: gotta fly - seeya later folks

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: well we disabled groups

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and were still having major issues

[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: oh, oops. no not tried it in opensim

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: bye strawberry

[11:55] WhiteStar Magic: Take Care Strawberry

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: im going to go ahead and say Groups has minimal issues

[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: bye stawberry.

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you mean major issues?

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: maximal?

[11:56] Penny Lane: Arad: not necessarily. It's possible for a group owner to set up the group channel service by other means (via website?), and then the sim uses that service for that group without the viewer needing any change at all.

[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: SL2 is already hard to work with, so never got to the point to do testing.

[11:56] Leslea Aldrin: tc strawberry

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol well opensim has maximal

[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: waiting till the have better interface

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but groups itself im not sure its having any ill effects

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: lol

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: functionality is 100% the same with or without groups

[11:56] ARADTech KoolKam: ok Penny agreed

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: ah sorry, I re-read what you wrote, I understand now

[11:57] ARADTech KoolKam: we still dont have a decent fucntioning web interface of any type anymore

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ah hehe k

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya confusing times justinc

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be doing alot of that im sure

[11:58] ARADTech KoolKam: and lot of work that was done in previous ones is now completely unuable with head to further it

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I would hope this change would be the last for a while

[12:00] ARADTech KoolKam: yes lets hope :)

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: unfortunately, this kind of thing is inevistable in a pre-1.0 alpha level project, I would say

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: inevitable

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya me too but this change is just getting starteed

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its got looong way to go

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: before we can claim its over

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:00] ARADTech KoolKam: yup

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: what do you mean?

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ah our testing is not going well

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: at all

[12:00] Penny Lane: Is that because the recent huge changes have discouraged independent work outside Core? It will become more stable, that should help.

[12:00] ARADTech KoolKam: agrered

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we have uptimes measuered in minutes

[12:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm kidn of surprised. There have been changes and they're big but not massive

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how curious

[12:01] ARADTech KoolKam: cant have 2 avis logged in

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya it seems if you have any above average amount of prims

[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: minutes ? thats would be a decreasement of uptime ind ays

[12:01] ARADTech KoolKam: we have yet even begun to really even be able to test yet

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ie in the 1000's

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: 2 avatars is impossible

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: really? wow

[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: oh. looks like something did 600 steps back

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: the thing is, none of the core code has changed (well, apart from bug fixes and some refatoring). I mean, this is just service level change, right?

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: so far it looks like wne an avatar that is not a land owner logs in,. the heartbeat stops

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: i plan to do more testing later

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, maybe some more major problem has crept in

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: this is with latest master, right?

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes

[12:02] ARADTech KoolKam: yes

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: well, as of a day or so old

[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: creepy

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i just updated again the ROBUST and SIM last night

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: no change

[12:03] ARADTech KoolKam: we have a testing recipe at least to help narrow things down

[12:03] Penny Lane: On the rare occasions when I try to login to OSgrid on Windows, my uptime is never more than minutes (it was seconds, at the start of this meeting). While on Linux it's hours or days. Can't be only my own experience.

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: were narrowing the possibilties down

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: its been experienced on more than one grid too

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but lots of work to do

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: alright I need to go. Good bug hunting, folks.

[12:03] Dahlia Trimble has to go, bye all :)

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: the whole thing is a very complex system

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: but need to test standalone and different DB types

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: thanks JCC, talk soon man

[12:03] Penny Lane: Cyu Dahlia

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: you do Dahlia

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Dahlia

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for everything guys

[12:03] Penny Lane: Cyu JCC

[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: i run mine around 7 days before i think about restart. or its needed

[12:03] Dahlia Trimble is Offline

[12:03] ARADTech KoolKam: all of this is to be expeted, I have every confidence in the dev's to fix things :)

[12:03] WhiteStar Magic: Take Care JCC

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: bye guys

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves

[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC