Chat log from the meeting on 2020-10-20

[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew and steevithak

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[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:03] steevithak x: howdy

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Took me almost 5 minutes to get here. I logged in and was in a different region and couldn't TP from there to here. :P

[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: I had no problems logging directly here

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, logging in directly to the region you want to be in always seems to work. Not so much when you need to TP from place to place.

[11:05] Misterblue Waves: I had no problem TPing from LBSA

[11:06] Bill Blight: Are my eyes playing tricks on me, do I see a Mr. Blue?

[11:06] steevithak x: Same here, I was able to TP from my region with no problem

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: hi all

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: welcome :)

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: oops

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Ubit

[11:07] Bill Blight: Howdy Peeps

[11:07] Misterblue Waves: having problems with your eyes too, Bill? ;-)

[11:07] Bill Blight: LOL

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: so what news about opensim do you bring?

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Let see what strange incantations appear in the change log. ;)

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Looks like a "Tron Pixel" here today.

[11:09] Bill Blight: Destiny Ghost

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: well osgrid did release updated version

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: then i found a bug :p

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: guess dan will have to release another :)

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... three instances of "make some changes". That's helpful. :P

[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is always a bug...

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeah, damm null string terminations

[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as long as he does not write "someone made some changes"

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: One change of note this past week was a fix for saving OAR files.

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: well wasn't exactly on that, but handling a string ending with multibyte uft8

[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I'm always afraid I will update my regions only to see the next change log says "oops"

[11:13] Bill Blight: That's what oars are for

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: After saving your oar file you see a change log entry that says a fix for saving oars was applied.

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Does git or some other tool give an estimate of how many lines of code there is in OpenSimulator?

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Another fix of note this past week is a fix related to dragging and dropping of an inventory folder between avatars.

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Black Duck should give you that statistic.

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: even estimated dev cost :)

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ahh yes.. one item was left out :)

[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Currently 497,062 lines

[11:20] Misterblue Waves: it has grown slowly over the last decade

[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice seeing you again, Misterblue. We don't see you around here that often.

[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: Do you know if there is a 64bit Linux for the Raspberry Pi yet? And if yes have you run OpenSim on it?

[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is the beta

[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for Raspbian

[11:21] Bill Blight: 783.8k according to github GLOC

[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, what is aot which is mentioned in some recent commits?

[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it will not compile opensim yet because of missing code in 64-bit mono

[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I have not bothered compiling the libs 64-bit yet

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: The count may vary based on whether you include branches or not.

[11:22] Bill Blight: Ahead of Time compiler, instead of JIT, can be used on some DLL's

[11:23] Kayaker Magic: LOL, AOT sounds like a joke about JIT

[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Bill.

[11:23] Misterblue Waves: there is an Ubuntu for raspPi64

[11:23] Bill Blight: yeah it does

[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: vmware released esxi for rapsberry pi the other day

[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it is 64-bit

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: well duck thing is strange

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: current number of commits be person was just cut to half

[11:25] Misterblue Waves: the benchmarks I've seen have the Pi processor much slower in 64 bit vs 32 bit... could be memory arch or needing a real disk but, performance-wise, it's best to stick with 32 for the moment

[11:25] Misterblue Waves: some of the Pi clones do better

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: guess because we had 2 repos

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Hello Arielle!

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: guess it did count double

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the PI is on average 28% faster with the 64-bit Raspbian

[11:25] Arielle Popstar: Hi Kayaker

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: pi is 32b ?

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a significant difference

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Ubit

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: wel i keep telling ppl that 32bit IS faster

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: by just basic physics

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the processor is 64-bit

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: if both 64b and 32b well done

[11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.

[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby, Arielle

[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Selby

[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Gavin

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and opensim has tons and tons of pointers to data

[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the pointers sisters

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: those beeing 8 or 4 bytes is a lot of dif on memory access and cpu cache use

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: on win we can opensim in 32bit, just start with opensim32.exe

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it faster=

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ?

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: in win64 each instance can have like 3GB

[11:28] Misterblue Waves: armv7 is 32 bit and the Pi and Raspian have been 32 bit for years.... the newest Pi's have the new ARM processor that does both 32 and 64 bit.... so the newer OS's are starting to have 64 bit versions also

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yes it is a bit faster

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: issue is just plain physics

[11:29] Kayaker Magic: You can only use OpenSim32.exe on Win? Not on linux?

[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ctually I run my opensim regions on the 64-bit PI kernel, but userland is 32-bit

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: normal linxu only runs 64bit apps

[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 whispers: the 64-bit kernel is much faster on IO

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: wel 64b linux, ofc

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: one thing that mks a dif is that instruction sets are not identical

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: now many cpus do have new instructions even more registers in 64b

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: mono jit also did got improvements in 64 .. thing they improved 3b again

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: but as i said opensim has a ton of pointers..

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: it is memory bounded in performance terms

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just reading an article the other day about how the use of pointers can slow down program execution.

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: ( with exception of tight low level things on physics )

[11:33] Misterblue Waves: gotta run.... take care all

[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Bye!

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Misterblue. Thanks for dropping by.

[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers MB¨

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: most time cpu is just looking and moving data all around

[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Nice to see you here! Come back again soon!

[11:33] Misterblue Waves has to run to get lunch

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: cya mb

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: We should look at catering this event. ;)

[11:34] Kayaker Magic: lol

[11:34] Kayaker Magic: donuts would attract more people.

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: on win64 opensim is a bit faster and uses less memory

[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they released the PI 4 compute module yesterday, so someone are building a board where you can insert 4 compute modules for a total of 16 CPU cores

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: not a huge huge dif.. but it is there

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, OpenSim32.exe used to work on Linux.

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: 32bit or 64 is only a flag on the dll

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: runtime decides

[11:35] Arielle Popstar: opensim32.exe used to be for 64 bit

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: There used to be donuts available at the old meeting location in Wright Plaza

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: if machine does not have 32b opensim32 will run in 64b

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: same for opensim.exe it will be 32 on a 32b box

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSim32.exe was needed for 32-bit machines back before the main executable could also be used on 32-bit.

[11:36] Arielle Popstar: what was this coff cocc about? http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=31f0290e7d96cdeaa1050aeb135958e420f1796a

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: its a prefered mode flag

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: it is not needed

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: opensim.exe and opensim32.exe are exactrly some code, diferent flag

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: oh aot may smoke

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: well not if linux only runs in 64b

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: think there is a addon to allow linux 64b to also run 32b apps

[11:39] Arielle Popstar: what was this change about? http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=31f0290e7d96cdeaa1050aeb135958e420f1796a

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: like win does always

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: update to libomv

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: :p

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Depending on the program 32-bit versions of libraries would need to be installed in addition to the 64-bit ones on Linux.

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: wiht a bug fix

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kayaker, the Pi 4 can also run Windows 10 in 64-bit mode

[11:40] Arielle Popstar: to do what Ubit?

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: just said.. last was a bug fix

[11:40] Kayaker Magic: Windows on an ARM?

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but a specially configured

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: there is a issue on last osgrid release

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thhere is a Discord for it

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: as always, dan makes a release, a relevant bug shows up :)

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but its a issue with prims TEXT string that end with a multibyte utf8 char

[11:44] Arielle Popstar: lot of mystery libomv changes

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: libomv has its own commits history

[11:47] Kayaker Magic: I'm trying to get a handle on the suitcase/inventory issue, tell me if I have this right: When an avatar logs on, their inventory directory is transmitted from the robust server to the region server to the viewer and cached there? When the avatar TPs from one region inside the grid to another, is the inventory sent again? Or only when they HG TP?

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: no

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: it is more confusing than that

[11:48] Kayaker Magic: LOL figures

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and region operates only as middle ware between viewer and inventory service

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: there is no inventory storage rrgion side ( aside some caching)

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought Ubit was about to say that either Robust or the region wasn't involved.

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: oh HG, original grid inventory is called

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: on..

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( with possible activatition of suticase checks )

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeack

[11:51] Arielle Popstar: but an osgrid's avatar inventory is sent complete?

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ( with possible activation of suitcase checks )

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: sent where?

[11:51] Arielle Popstar: to the destination region

[11:51] Arielle Popstar: HG region

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: never sent

[11:51] Kayaker Magic: only the "directory" is sent, not the assets themselves.

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: inventory as no assets just references to assets

[11:52] Arielle Popstar: then what was the difference between HG 1.0 HG 1.5 and HG 2.0?

[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would be fun if your 15 GB inventory was sent on every HG transfer

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and viewers ask for inveotry parts

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: regions "tunnel" that to proper inventory service

[11:53] Kayaker Magic: But some people have HUGE inventories, even in their suitcase and it gobbles up bandwidth.

[11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: some HG versions was Suitcase

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: suitcase is basicly a filter

[11:53] Arielle Popstar: and the copmplaint from some is that those from Osgrid takes up the most

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: if outside region, inventory items need to be child of suitcase

[11:54] Arielle Popstar: to the point one grid owner was  thinking of blocking osgrid accounts

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: or have suitcase on the parents chain

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: just that

[11:54] Kayaker Magic: I am upset with Dan not turning on suitcase in OSGrid. It is supposed to be th OpenSim test bed, and I need to test suitcase issues but cannot.

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: osg had bug issues with suitcase in past

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: so decided to not use it

[11:55] Arielle Popstar: it caused problems when they did activate it

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: big issues even

[11:55] Arielle Popstar: but that was years ago now

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: ( they also don't allow viewers do delete trash contents )

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they basically need to convert their db, so a few days downtime

[11:55] Kayaker Magic: ouch

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: to activate suitcase?

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: There is also the version number associated with inventory folders that is, or can be, used to determine if a folder contents need to be downloaded or not.

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: nahh db is the same

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: structure is, but not record content

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: suitcase is just checks to see if a folder or item has suitacase folder as parent

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and folder type 100

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and some redir on default folders

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: like on hg default for objects is suitcase/objects not /objects

[11:58] Arielle Popstar: is Diva still awol?

[11:58] Arielle Popstar: is she ever going to do any more work on HG?

[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: after the revolution

[11:59] Arielle Popstar: which one?

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the American revolution

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no idea. DIva is lost on wild RL, have no news from her in ages

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: version 2

[12:00] Kayaker Magic: Didn't she show up at OSCC last year?

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: seen her after that

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: was that when the opensim viewer was announcde?

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or was that 2 years ago

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: that was 2 years ago

[12:01] steevithak x: What's the opensim viewer?

[12:01] Kayaker Magic: MrBlue was interested in that, too bad he's not here to tell us any status.

[12:01] Arielle Popstar: is that new viwer code dead in the water?

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: status is simple.. stopped

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DoA

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: Every year they say "No progress, RL in the way, perhaps next year"

[12:02] steevithak x: Is there a web page for the project? I don't think I've heard about it

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no

[12:02] Bill Blight: Dead before arrival

[12:02] Arielle Popstar: just a git site i think

[12:03] Kayaker Magic: Is the Melanie version of it available somewhere? On a git site?

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: for now.. just there is no opensim viewer.. that is just dead

[12:03] Bill Blight: Was a failure to understand the licensing in the platform they wanted to use ..

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: the lic issue was fixed changing to other engine

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well not actually changing all the code. so almost nothing

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile that engine is now totally diferent, has even other name

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: was Xenko now Stride

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: most its changes where to improve "normal" games

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: evne harder dynamic content control at runtime

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: because no game does that

[12:06] steevithak x: I'd love to see a viewer written specifically for opensimulator, not just a fork of SL viewer code

[12:06] Arielle Popstar: https://github.com/opensim/opensim-viewer

[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what will it do?

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: i don't even dare to try

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: actually already removed all those old xenko tools from disk

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the dependency on the SL code is content

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure you can write a new viewer, but if you want to use your current content it cannot be fundamentally different

[12:07] Arielle Popstar: what is the sense for a specific viewer when the codes for opensin m and s/l are  basically the same?

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: yeack there should not be a unreal folder there

[12:08] steevithak x: Thanks for the link Arielle!

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: code the same?

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: steevithak, now and then an OS specific viewer is started but never seems to get very far.

[12:08] Arielle Popstar: they achieve the same effect

[12:08] Kayaker Magic: The advantage of a new viewer would be a modern renderer. With new surface options.

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: well problem is that... code is getting diferent all the time

[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the new renderer you basically have to change all content too

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: if i didn't added EEP, we whould be out of new viewers soon

[12:09] Kayaker Magic: Also if we had our own viewer we could start moving away from the LL protocol.

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: except possible dayturn :)

[12:09] Arielle Popstar: why would we want to though Kay?

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ahh and scenegate

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Just the other day I ran across information that the Cycles renderer in Blender is available for use in other projects. It is being used with FreeCAD. Can't remember if a plug-in was required to enable that.

[12:10] steevithak x: Yeah, I've found a few dead viewer projects over the last 10 years, seems like a hard problem to solve

[12:10] Bill Blight: LOL .. can't get people to move to a new physics engine or script engine and you want them to change the entire protocol ... too funny ..

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: we have imprudence users here at osgrid

[12:11] Arielle Popstar: not everyone is capable of overcoming the  back ward capabnility hump

[12:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Scenegate is aiming for non-sl voice-- more securty

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when was the last commit to scenegate Selby?

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: well voice is a issue

[12:11] Arielle Popstar: just rip voice out.

[12:11] Kayaker Magic: Everyone is switching to ubODE, I think YEngine is gaining traction. I don't understand your pessimism Bill.

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: someone told me the forms to apply for opensim accounts are gone from vivox

[12:12] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Spring, sometime -- slow going with interns

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think all grids have moved to 0.9.

[12:12] Arielle Popstar: and switching to UBode physics wasnt the issue but the problem with the switching to ubit meshmeriser

[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: physics and scripting is relatively trivial compared to the other content

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: and they don't seem to answer about that

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but i was told.. not first hand information

[12:13] Bill Blight: well vivox is now owned by Unity so, I'm surprised opensim support is not dead already

[12:13] Arielle Popstar: think most have now except the sacrarium gang

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: except that they did refuse to provide me any information to update our region code

[12:13] Kayaker Magic: Vivox was bought out, refused new OpenSim submissions for months, but then started granting them again. That was months ago they may have stopped again.

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL is working in their own voice implementation

[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: sacrarium gang?

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yeah guess vivox now likes big paying costumers

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: evne to get some dev information one must apply to register as dev

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and they refuse most

[12:15] Arielle Popstar: the grids with all the content from unknown sources

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: ( did refuse me, a fs dev, etc )

[12:15] Arielle Popstar: think they are developing what used to be .8.2

[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at quarter past the hour. Time to start wrapping up todays meeting. Any last comments or questions?

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: There goes Bill.

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: build succeeded - wow

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: What were you building, Gavin?

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: miracles happen now and then gavin.Hird

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Some changes to the datapacker in the viewer

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus the serializer

[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: On that positive note I'll call this meeting concluded. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:17] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all

[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby.

[12:17] steevithak x: Later!

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby