Chat log from the meeting on 2013-11-19

 [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks is online. [11:03] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: deloping => developing [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: maby the 4th one solved or not so important [11:04] logger sewell: does anyone know if CHANGED_REGION_RESTART is implemented in the code one of our residents was asking [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: DOn't know. I'm using 075PF. I haven't checked for the problem in 076 yet [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: ojee. 0.7.5 :) [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: now it is going to be bugging me until I remember what the 4th item was that I ran across [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, justin [11:05] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:05] dan banner: hi justin [11:05] logger sewell: Hi Justin [11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: probably a diff reveals that ;) [11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi justin [11:05] Dahlia Trimble is online. [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: logger: I believe it is implemented [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I have found the problem. I don't have solutions for any of them yet. [11:06] Kayaker Magic: I'll be back. Save me a seat. [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, transparent water have hugh impact on framerate [11:06] logger sewell: ok thanks they are having trouble with a train script stopping after a restart of the region [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I just remembered what is the 4th code issue. [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: !ohh tran script. what type of train ? physics simple pois ? [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: pos [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:07] Mircea Kitsune: Might be a bit slow. Still working on debugging viewer shaders with Mesa and the Radeon driver (quite a pain, but SL shaders have some issues) [11:08] logger sewell: not sure it a timed tram they have set up on there region with stops at different places she just asked me about it this morning [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: logger: It looks implemented in the code. But of course, there can always be bugs [11:08] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi Dahlia [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:08] logger sewell: Hi Dalhia [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Has anyone else had issues with scripts that need to be recompiled(?) before they run after a region has been restarted? [11:08] logger sewell: yeh that is true :) [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly there might be an issue if the simulator was not shut down cleanly [11:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: llVolumeDetect gets lost after region restart on 0.7.6 [11:09] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         f94d07f: 2013-11-16 03:02:57 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but script state is saved [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i never could use llvolume for me projects. because it need to be solid prim [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I've not heard of that before [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. It is a radio script and it is always left in the region. [11:09] logger sewell: we are on 7.5pf right now seams the most stable [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: i wish we did have a trigger that worked with phantom prims [11:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I made a few phantom walk through teleporters for a region ;) [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Other scripts are always still running. Don't know why it seems to be just one or two that need kicking to get them going again. [11:10] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: added a timer to workaround that property loss [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: so what happens if you reset them? [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I should try just resetting them. I usually open the script force a save to get them going. After that, they run fine. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: llVolumeDetect does not work really good with Bulletsim yet [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: I have a feeling we're never preserved llVolumeDetect settings [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, we don't have Robert here yet. [11:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it does on the region where I have them on except for region restart without workaround [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if you really need to use llVolumeDetect i suggest staying on ODE for now [11:11] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, BTW. Are these meetings a good place and time to discuss minor bugs? I reported and submitted patches for two smaller Opensim issues, which people might be able to confirm on spot if they want [11:11] Vivian Klees: Robert won't be here [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it will be extremely painful [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: right, that's what would require the persistence [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: sure [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: i still dont get at the building. i hope var's are useable when i start building. i hope robert makes save and load oar working soon with var's but still in (yes still) setup stage of system. [11:12] Mircea Kitsune: ok [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, ok. thanks. Just wanted to ask him something about physics and mesh support. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus its super simple to transfer mega-regions to var [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon. never seen a real use for llvolume [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not implemented on bulletsim? [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so for now just work with Mega region if your intention is to switch to VAR [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its implemented, but it works terrible [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Yes nebadon. oh thats true i wanted to build as mega for now [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: needs major improvement [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its extremely unreliable [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: and convert it later [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: can ask me about physics and mesh [11:12] Mircea Kitsune: First one is: If anyone stands up, anters mouse look mode (with "show avatar in mouselook" enabled), and looks up and down. Does the camera move up and down and jitter around the place? [11:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I found one for nice looking walk through teleporters [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: llVolumeDetect is reliant on physics engine to work [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its not purely Xengine [11:13] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: did not yet give a big problem on using them only restart [11:13] Mircea Kitsune: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=3274 Description here [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it is very reliable under ODE [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: for me i can cam fine in mouselook [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i have had my NPCs go for weeks using ODE [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but with bulletsim in about 20-30 minutes they all stop moving [11:14] Mircea Kitsune: Rich: You see your avatar in mouselook? And the camera doesn't snap around the place? What viewer, also? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: because the waypoinnts just stop working eventually [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, In 075PF are there still problems with physics and mesh objects where you can't walk through open parts of the mesh? [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: neb, this sim bullet or ode ? [11:14] Vivian Klees: bullet [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I seem to recall that there were changes made in BS to address this in git master. [11:14] Mircea Kitsune is still confused why others don't experience this issue, since it affects all viewers I tried for years [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: what os do you use? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: we are on Bullet here Richardus [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, no i dont see my avatar. thats default disabled in mouselook [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, if the physics mesh is high enough LOD and your avatar capsule will fit within the holes you should be able to walk thru [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: let em check again [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: actually Dahlia [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: that is true until a point [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: but your capsule is not necessarily shaped like your avatar [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: you can actually have your Physics LOD too high [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and Meshmerizer or ODE or Bullet one of them freaks [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and you get Artifacts that can block holes [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: i see my legs now/. but no weird bouncing [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, ok thanks. I had someone who had a problem with that. [11:16] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Currently openSUSE 13.1. But it happened since I was in Windows XP, then Windows 7 [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: there are lots of ways it can be messed up [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: your Physics LOD should never exceed 16k vertices [11:16] Mircea Kitsune: It happened with more than just one viewer also. Original SL viewer, Hioop (back in its day), and now Firestorm [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: 32k should work but is an absolute limit [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive had trouble above 16k [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: 16k much better [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I presume things like avatar shape don't make a difference? I know there is a bug atm where if you change appearance settings, subsueqent av movement becomes extremely jerky. Probably unrelated though [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: with my terrain [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i get invsible walls [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and fall through terrain [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Sure. I used many avatars since I saw the issue years ago, and it happened with all [11:17] Dahlia Trimble: terrain works for me at 32k [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: but doesn't happen with ll grid? [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Dahlia: thanks. I've made a note of those limits. [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: No, never. And also doesn't happen on Opensim with the patch I submitted [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya really you just need to experiment with the #'s until you get good results [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Apparently it's caused by all avatar angles being sent to the viewer. Somehow, the viewer doesn't like that [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: And cutting And setting X and Y to 0 in virtual avatar rotation fixes the problem [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: Question is if it breaks anything else [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I do see an interesting effect if I try and rotate my pov over synergy [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: camera goes a little crazy but that is also probably unrelated [11:19] Mircea Kitsune: Justing: Is the camera dropping in your chest when you look up or down, and bouncing around as you rotate view? [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: a synergy artifact rather than anything else [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: synergy + 3D = pain [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: ha, hi justin [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if I just try and rotate around my avatar the camera zooms right out and rotates wildly [11:19] Mircea Kitsune: No, that sounds like the same issue [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats a problem only with opensim [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its because of our capsule i think [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: you can get synergy to work in 3d apps by locking it to the screen you are on [11:20] Vivian Klees: ode it will bounce in mouse vies but not on bullet [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: its a hidden setting [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not the same as the SL capsule [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Sinergy is a viewer? Is it based on official Linden viewer? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i always have trouble trying to use avatar as the cam pivot poiint [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: itneresting, thanks [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Camera jumps around (trying to confirm the bug better so I'm asking)? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it can go wildy crazy trying to cam on the avatar [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yopu mean with synergy? I don't experience that issue if the viewer is on the same machine as the synergy server [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: no with anything [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not Synergy its an opensim bug or something [11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Yes. That's a problem in Opensim. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: cause it does not happen in SL [11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Correct [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea synergy is a remote mouse/keyboard utility [11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, sorry about that. Yes its unrelated to that [11:21] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: ah that thing one mouse / keyboard but several computers controlled with it [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hold on, you're saying that camera climbs and drops in opensim if using mouselook? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: try camming on your head [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it usually works on body [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but on head it goes nuts [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm camming on head now and it's fine [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: but you mean outsidemouselook? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: this was external cam [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not doing it for me at the moment either [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but ive experienced it quite a bit in the past [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: It affects only normal mouselook mode [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: i cant create it [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the mouselook cam issue is something else [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: micrea: maybe you could post a vid on youtube? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: you can not sit on child prims [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: that would help us understand exactly what you mean [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you do mouselook goes to root prim [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it only works correctly if avatar sits on root prim [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: It's because Opensim sends all camera angles to the viewer. It seems the viewer only needs or wants the Z rotation of the avatar, and X and Y should be 0 [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: child prims is pain yes. hope thats fixt with 0.8 [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: I don't have good screen capturing software and I'm not sure if I can [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think it uses them all when flying in mouselook [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i think its the same problem if your avatar is on a vehicle and sitting on child prim [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: images or video [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: your avatar jumps wildly and camera goes nutso [11:23] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Mircea there is Gregion and a few others for that [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: The problem you described though is the same one I'm getting. It's not related to sinergy [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its like the viewer is fighting between avatar position and linkset root position [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: and it jumps back and forth crazily [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Images make less sense, since it's a movement issue [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: I'll see if I can take a screenshot though [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: make a youtube video [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats the best way to show it [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i could certainly make some videos highlighting it [11:25] Mircea Kitsune: Wait, I think I can take a screenshot [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i could probably demo the moving object problem [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: let me try [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: man, where do they hide mouselook on firestorm.... [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if this will work or not [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: type M [11:25] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: just with the scroll wheel go zoom in and just goes in anyways [11:25] dan banner: hit escape and scroll the mouse in [11:25] Mircea Kitsune: Press M, or scroll mouse wheel forth [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: no scrollwheel, using touchpad [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: and m just goes into chat [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: hmm no must only do it on scripted vehicle [11:26] Vivian Klees: http://pastebin.com/pyr8L3Kw Neb's Screen recorder [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I have my viewer set to put typing in to chat automatically too. [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: just use the right side of touchpad most have it as a scroll slide there [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: whats good recording software for linux btw ? [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: vlc maby ? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i use ffmpeg [11:26] Mircea Kitsune: Done... [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, recordmydesktop [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: and a command line script [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats what Vivian pasted above [11:27] Vivian Klees: it is [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: X11Grab is the method [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: ok. ill ask later. if am get sofar that i have linux desktop [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: ah interesting. Are we talking about a slight movement of the camera in the up/down direction one is facing? [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: 1 sec, processing screenshot [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Shows how in mouselook, the camera is located right abbove my back as I look fully up [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: if I point head down the camera moves forward slightly. If up then it moves back [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, RecordMyDesktop is the program I used and it worked ok for me. I haven't used it often. [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: thats for windows lol [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: That screenshot is from mouselook [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: thats the non-root sit [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i really really hate that problem [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: thats why this big moon couch is not linked [11:28] Dahlia Trimble: justin, make sure your camera isnt colliding [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I rarely run Windows. I use that program in Linux. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: because otherwise it really really sucks [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: But why's it also happen when not sitting on anything? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh your not sitting in that shot? [11:28] dan banner: sits are seriously screwed up esp is the child and root are any distance apart [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: No. Standing [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I don't think it should be in mouselook? [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: It happens both when sitting, standing, or flying [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: yeah, I dont' see anything like that [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: justin, dont know :) [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya that is odd [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: all viewers do it for you? [11:29] dan banner: whats the url of this screen shot? [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: It's strange then. I wonder why others don't get it [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, all viewers I tried over the years [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: The issue seems to have always existed [11:30] dan banner: ya i dont get that either [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: acutlaly maybe I do see it, I just wasn't pointing my camera right down and up [11:30] dan banner: ever [11:30] dan banner: http://i.imgur.com/JhvNEsQ.png [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya that is odd I don't really recall seeing that before [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: let me try again [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: there's definitely mvmt of the camera up and down at those extremes [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yes. Try going in mouselook, looking straight forward (to make sure everything's fine initially), then suddenly look fully up or down [11:30] Vivian Klees: grr can't open links in latest singularity [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya its a bit swirly looking straight up [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont see my own avatar [11:31] dan banner: vivian: fs 64bit is nice [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: happens also if you don't have av in mouselook but a little harder to realize [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: not found a 64bit linux version of FS [11:31] Vivian Klees: you know my feelings of opensim fs [11:31] dan banner: its for windows rich [11:31] Mircea Kitsune: yes. Having avatar in mouselook makes it more obvious, since you can see the camera falling in your arms [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: ok, I will try again with your patch and see if that fixes when I can. But the actual code chagne might have to end up being different, I don't know yet [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: justin, seems to collide for me in mouselook [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: there 64bit is useless because it dont support mesh physics and pathfinding etc. [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: and on windows 64bit is worse then 32bit with framerate [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Sure, that line of code can be moved anywhere appropriate [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: on linux its opposite [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Idea is that X and Y need to be 0 for avatar rotation, after calculating movement [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, I'm running Alpha version of Singularity. Clicking links asks me if I want to open link in external browser. If I say yes, my browser opens with the link. I set Singularity to use external browser. [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: If anyone missed the link when I posted it first, http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=3274 [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I woyuld need to check that nothing else is expecting to be able to see that data, or would expect it in the future for a legitimate reason [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I think all 3 camera axes are important [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: especially when flying in mouselook [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: i think dalhia right. you cant work with only Z [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: so an alt solution may be to discard it before sending data to the viewer rather than in SP.Rotation itself [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: The problem doesn't happen on the Linden grid, and removing the first 2 axes from avatar angles fix the problem. So logically, I'm tempted to think the main grid does the same as my proposed patch [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: But I could be wrong [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: as example. camera position from prim ? [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: that would seem logical to me [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: I tried mouselook when sitting on a prin in any rotation also. Doesn't break it [11:34] Mircea Kitsune: Camera is always positioned properly with my patch. Even if avatar sits on an upside-down chair [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: if you only have z then you cant control elevation in mouselook while flying [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: even if not sitting on root prim? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: im surpised the camera doesnt freak out anymore when I cam on myself [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: it used to go absolutely nuts on me [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yes. I tried creating a sphere, sitting on it, rotating it randomly, and going in mouselook. View position and angle was fine [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: a child prim sphere? [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: That I don't think I tested yet [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Testing now might not help, my patch needs to be applied [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: on root prim it is fine [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: right, there's a long standing issue where mouselook position is incorrect if you sit on a child prim [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya if i sit on this prim and go into mouselook my camera jumps over to root [11:36] Mircea Kitsune: I think that's unrelated to this issue [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: yes. think going back to at least 2008 [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik, it;'s because we send child prim info to the viewer where it's actually expecting an offset from the root prim [11:37] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: when I encountered those odd angles, it looks a lot like that [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but fixing that is going to be a bit of work, assuming that is the issue (I haven't reproduced it) [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: But to be sure. If you go in mouselook and look fully up or down, you can confirm the camera falls, right? When standing I mean, not just when sitting (it happens in all cases) [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it was not falling for me [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but it was kind of swirling around [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: let me leave it there for a minute [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it does drop for me [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, it swirls around too [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: and noticeably rises when you look up again [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: That's another effect [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Justin, yes [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its not moving at all now [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: aha. now i see it to [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't get any rotation, but maybe that's just me right now [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: rock solid still [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: not falling or swirling [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Also: If you look halfway up or down and turn around, you can see the camera pushing back and forth too [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: you're looking up? [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: never seen this before [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Viewers probably translate full avatar rotations in some weird way [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya im looking straight up at ceiling [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: what about look down? [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: best to see when you look down [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: right down to vertical [11:39] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: a little zoom in zoom out I see but remains steady at angle [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: down looks like its way to down [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: like im laying on the floor almost [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Did the camera lower itself as you looked down? [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea perhaps you could discuss this with some viewer devs? [11:39] dan banner: i see slight reposition of the camera but nothing i would call uncomfortable [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that's the kind of thing mircea is talking about [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: almost feels like my avatar lays down when i look down [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: For me it did lower the camera [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Try looking straight forward, then instantly down [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but up i dont get that same sensation [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its like im laying on floor [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you have av on in mouselook? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i do [11:40] Mircea Kitsune: Yes, it's the same issue then [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: looks like zoom control of cam gets some difference on mouse look [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: actually ya when i look down from up i notice it [11:40] dan banner: ya slight repositioning [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but just looking up i dont notice it and I also do not see my own avatar like in the screenshot Mircea showed [11:40] dan banner: same here neb [11:40] Mircea Kitsune: For me it happens both when looking up or down. The camera lowers itself [11:40] dan banner: only if i look stright down [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: for my feelinbg the cam drops at leats 0.5 down when i look in mouselook to the floor [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: isnt seeing your avatar in mouselook a viewer preference setting? [11:41] dan banner: and i never see my avatar [11:41] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: rich that is what I noticed oo [11:41] Mircea Kitsune: Yes. It helps notice this problem better [11:41] dan banner: dahlia: ya its a setting but not by default [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: and thats without avatar enabled in mouselook [11:41] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but never had my avi shown [11:41] Mircea Kitsune: Yes you must manually enable it [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: which viewre are you using? [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: No, you dont nmeed to enable it [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: camera drops without to [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: well, now I can repro it I can retry the patch, though that may not be until fri [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: overloaded as usual [11:42] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: zoom in, out changes without shown avatar [11:42] Robert Wood21: hello guys [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: and if it works think about whether that's the best appraoch to fix this [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. Just glad others could confirm it so it's a known issue, and others might be onto it [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: I know little about C# and the Opensim code, but luckily found a way to make my version of the vix [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: **fix [11:42] dan banner: http://i.imgur.com/wmT5ZUx.png [11:42] Robert Wood21: hi dan [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: yeah, thanks for looking at that directly [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: NP [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: There was a second problem also... much more minor [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: I'd prefer to make sure one can still fly in muoselook and control elevation with the mouse before commiting the patch [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya we have a bunch of these issues like this that would be really nice to knock out [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6835 [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: the current patch is in mantis 3274 if you want to test [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: justin, no I dont have time [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Description: If in 3rd person view, you click-drag your avatar, and look fully up or down, the avatar won't walk forward properly [11:43] dan banner: ya i like that bug [11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Unrelated to the issue with the camera jumping BTW, this is a second issue I found and tried to fix [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: this is another one I could not repro but others can? [11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Yes [11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Anyone can test it now: Don't be in mouselook. Click and hold the left mouse button over your avatar, so you can look around. Now look down into the floor and press forward. The avatar's movement speed is slower [11:44] dan banner: thats so you can walk to the edge of things w/o falling off [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: dan: No, it's unwanted functionality. Main grid doesn't do it. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya we all love that bug Mircea [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we have slow walk parties [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Years ago, this happened in mouselook too. I fixed the bug there though, but it wasn't fixed for 3rd person view [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:45] dan banner: sl needs to add that [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Well, this one could be considered intended functionality on Opensim. Although I find it sort of wrong [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: Nah SL have more funny ones :OL [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: when I look down and move forward my camera snaps back [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Either way it's happening due to a bug. There was already a function to check left clicking, and it didn't work [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: I have a patch which removes it, the checks were useless [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I see it now [11:46] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I guess every grid needs a few oddities to be interesting ;) [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Personally I think it should be fixed. It's more correct that way, this is unintended functionality [11:46] dan banner: i would be disappointed to see the slow walk removed/fixed [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Well, yeah. But bugs do need to be fixed :) [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: the commit which added that says that it was added to fix crouch-slide [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: why not make it an configurable option? [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: from mantis 3241 [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: dahlia don't use alt cam [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yeah, it seems to intersect with another code. Someone should test if it re-introduces crouch sliding [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: It might not [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: But if it does, another fix is needed [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: just left click on avatar and go up above look straight down [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: then you can walk [11:48] dan banner: lets fix sits on child prims in vehicles and other linked objects [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: alt cam ? thats much used also ctrl-alt cam [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya i would much rather see that stuck fixed first [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there is another problem too with child prim sitting [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: most use ctrl+alt to cam [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian is moon walking. :) [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if the prims are spaced far apart you always stand up at root [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, the two are completely unrelated issues. The camera jumping and the walking into the floor I mean. [11:49] dan banner: like when i stand from sitting on a linkset and get ejected 90m away [11:49] dan banner: THATS a bug [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: True too. Didn't look into that one [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: see [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: watch me [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: Oh [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: You stand up at another location [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you stand up next too root prim [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Ouch... obvious bug indeed [11:50] dan banner: ya by the root [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah I'm totally seeing it [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but the velocity of your movement seems to carry [11:50] dan banner: depending on the rotation of the root prim you can get pounded 60m underground [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, whoever fixes that will probably get a statue in osgrid ;) [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so you dont land exactly at root [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you kind of get slungshot [11:50] dan banner: bigger the distance the farther you get shot [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: thats why the moon couch isnt linked [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its bad [11:51] dan banner: and the jittery passengers in vehicles [11:51] dan banner: that needs fixed too [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suspect thats the same issue [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: as the mouselook on non-root [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: that only happens on child prims also [11:51] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that looks awkward on some of the moving objects when they move faster [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: likely a similar if not same issue [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: yup. bad to. also in mouselook. your eating gravel from the railtrack then [11:52] dan banner: lol [11:52] dan banner: yup [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: why you need to make cars sit you on root prim [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: hence the giant red box on my racer kits [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that disappears when you sit [11:52] dan banner: which means passengers are on child prims [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that is only so you dont sit on other prims [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: but hard if you sit with more people [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ha, bet you wish I worked on this instead of stopping people creatie LSL with the wrong number of args ;) [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: As a scripter, I like to see fixes to the parser. [11:53] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: looks like a lot of wrong doings is easy to find ;) [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across a nasty parser issue in the past 3 days. [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: bad LSL is harder to fix then a bad sitting avatar [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: LSL seems to be working fine. ALthough I'm still seeing some important functions which are marked as not implemented on the wiki still [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yeah, parser issues are a pain [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: Only a few ones... don't remember by memory which I last noticed [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are a few not implemented things [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, LSL is ok for the most part but there are still some nasty issues in it. [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: bad LSL is what SL is all about :) [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: did the MOAP LSL stuff ever get implemented? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: anyone know? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: the media controls [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm only really working on the LSL args stuff because I got bit by it myself whilst trying to scirpt something quickly.... [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: Didn't that happen originally? [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, yeah. I've seen so many bad scripts from SL. I usually (mostly) rewrite them. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I don't remember I think some worked there were others that didnt I don't recall now Id have to look and try them again [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... I was wondering if anyone can confirm the new material settings are implemented properly in Opensim. As in being persisted correctly in region database. [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Users with latest viewer probably know you can have normalmaps and glossy maps and stuff now [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Great feature IMO :) [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, if you want another LSL issue to fix while you are working on the parser, I can add to your todo list [11:55] dan banner: yes mircea if you enable the materialdemomodule [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: there is an OpenSim.ini setting needs to be added to activate it [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its not activated by default yet [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: though I think we should soon [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Also if LSL functions to edit those work [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: not really ;) I've looked at some issues but they are a real pain to fix [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: since most TPVs support it now [11:56] dan banner: its in osgrid ini [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Oh? There's a separate module for them? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia? what do you think? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it would probably be better if I looked at some of these other laongstanding issues first, like this child prim sit problem [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Why so? Do they need a special system to be stored? [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew. if you can find the end of the list... [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, the issue I ran across is something not liked by OS. It triggers a code exception which then spews red text in to the inworld debug console. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia did most of the material work thats in Core now [11:56] Dahlia Trimble: defaulting materials? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:57] dan banner: mircea: add [MaterialsDemoModule] to your ini [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: I think we should wait a bit [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: think were ready for that yet? [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ok, whats the reasoning for waiting? [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: Im not convinced materials editing is working properly [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: good reason [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: I can add it. Was just curious why they need a separate module to be supported. [11:57] dan banner: ive been using [MaterialsDemoModule] since it was added to core [11:57] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: seems like something I have to enable in the near time to play around with [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: want to wait for more viewers to release it [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, ok [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: if there is anything we can test to help that move forward let us know for sure [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: and see if we get bug reports [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: still learning aboiut materials. then i hope to use/test it in sl. [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I like working on parsers but the one in OS is strange. I haven't made sense out of how it works. [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya Singularity alpha has support now [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm os i mena [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua has support [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i cant speak for Firestorm [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you've looked at the code in opensim-libs? [11:58] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Firestorm Beta too [11:58] Dahlia Trimble: but I think I might take it out of "demo" status [11:58] dan banner: so does firestorm alpha/beta [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:58] dan banner: and kokua [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: good so were close then [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: Not much to learn. Latest viewers just add a few new slots which let you choose a normal map or reflection map [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: firestorm have materials. the latest beta [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: I think the Singularity release can view them [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, no [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear normal maps is what people use nowadays rather than piling on the prims [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but not set them [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, normal maps are a great thing. And finally they're in SL too now [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: Also, this finally lets us have reflections on transparent prims [11:59] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, the UI is simple but the protocol is quite complex and convoluted [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that's where the parser/lexer generator is. What you see in opensim itsel fis just the tightly packed result it spits out [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: the specular maps are awesome too [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: Lots to learn about materials. in most cases i not so much extra. it only add more load [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: there's also a real nasty gotcha with parser generatio nwhich I haven't had time to get to the bottom of [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: As many probably know, if you set a primitive to be transparent but also enable shiny, it doesn't work. A face must be fully opaque for reflections to work on it. Materials offer a way around that now [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. I'll take a look. [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: So glass can reflect [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, is there a mantis for that? [12:00] dan banner: if you need a program to make normal/specular maps http://www.bricksntiles.com/textures/ [12:00] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds something for a nice office building with transparency on the windows ;) [12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Transparency + reflections [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: no. I'll try and open one to recrod the issue and the current hack fix [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks is offline. [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: essentially, one has to change a 1 to 0 in the penutlimate csv of the parser table [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks is online. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: crashed my viewer again [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: What was that URL for normal maps? [12:02] dan banner: http://www.bricksntiles.com/textures/ [12:02] dan banner: you can do it in blender too but this is easy [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to hop off. Thanks for the discussion, folks [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:02] Mircea Kitsune: Later :) [12:02] logger sewell: tc Justin [12:02] Dahlia Trimble: me too. bye all :) [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I'll spam the mantis system soon [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I look forward to it :) [12:02] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: bye Dahlia [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I have at least 6 (possibly 8) items for it [12:03] logger sewell: and saying that i need to scoot as well tc all [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves