Chat log from the meeting on 2013-01-29

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:01] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:01] Connected [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: back [11:01] Teravus Ousley: Hello [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:02] paulie Flomar: Hey, Justin. :) [11:02] Vivian Klees: hi Justin [11:02]  dan banner: hey justin [11:02]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Robert, are you meant to look like a fat troll, or is that a re-manifestation of an old bug? [11:02]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Justin and Andrew [11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: hey, justin [11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hey Arielle [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: Adelle and I found a bug literally 5 minutes before the meeting today Justin [11:02]  Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: with Coalesced Objects [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: of you rez 4 cubes and set them to anyone can copy [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: then rez a 5th cube thats not set to anyone can copy [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: select all 5 prims selecting the no copy one last [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: then take a copy [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: when you re-rez the object all the objects in it are reset to no one can copy [11:03]  Jak Daniels: isnt that by design though? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you know how it works on the ll grid? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i went to LL [11:04]  Jak Daniels: so you cant copy cube #5 ? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: and it was all preserved [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: no i am talking about when you re-rez the object [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: not putting it into a box or something [11:04] Jak Daniels: oic .... sorry [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: each seperate peice is reset [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I will file a mantis [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: thankyou [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: its obviously not a huge problem being no one has ever mentioned it before today that I know of [11:05]  paulie Flomar: did you take it into inv and then rerez or just copy and rez inworld? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i took a copy into inventory [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: sometimes problems are significant but nobody ever mentions them [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: then re-rezzed the copy [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:05]  paulie Flomar: tried just copy and paste inworld? maybe results are diufferent? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: this one could end very badly [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: for someone who did a lot of work [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: then wanted to move everything to another sim [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: potentially even other grids [11:06] paulie Flomar: just wanted to nail down teh steps [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: with IARs [11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: did you try the other way Neb, making 4 no-copy prims and then a cop prim, and setting the copy prim as the root of the coalesced? [11:06] paulie Flomar: wonderinf if the perm bits get smashed on copy or on store. [11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: *copy [11:06] dan banner: good question adelle [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: so anyway be careful that was really my reason for mentioning it here [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i had to reset 120 trees hehe [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: went pretty quickly though [11:07] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [11:07] BlueWall Slade: haha [11:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello Dahlia [11:07] BlueWall Slade: Dahlia came ready to zap questioners of the mono version policy [11:08] paulie Flomar: Hey, dahlia, Bluewall. :) [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm on an old version of Ubuntu that has reached end of life yet I have mono 2.10 installed. [11:08]  BlueWall Slade: \o [11:08]  Dahlia Trimble: I still need to finish the particles before zapping anyone lol [11:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: (built from source) [11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's a bikeshedding topic - everybody can have an opinion without having to understand the detailed technical options [11:08]  BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:08]  paulie Flomar: Howdy, nalates. :) [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: and the failure with modInvoke has been present for some time without such complaints [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey shrugs [11:09] BlueWall Slade: I don't see an issue until we need to work with dotnet 4.5 [11:09] Dahlia Trimble: is there no other option to coding modinvoke? [11:09] Fu Barr is Offline [11:09] Robert Adams: people who get burned by the modinvoke problem just move to .NET 4 [11:10] Nalates Urriah: Hi Paulie [11:10] Robert Adams: if the error printed out "too many argurments. Move to .NET 4.0" then people would know what to do [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I'm not sure - unfortunately the issue is in reflection which goes down into the sdk [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: could be a good idea [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: Robert++ [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: the reason I do want to move at some fairly soon future point is so that the binary distirbtiosn of opensim can be compiled against .net 4.0 [11:11] BlueWall Slade: could test the targtet at runtime and print a warning if it is enabled? [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: brb [11:11] Jak Daniels: how does that relate to mono versions on linux? [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it would make the minimum version 2.8 [11:11] BlueWall Slade: 2.8 is baaaad for most [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: although you could continue to use earlier versions, until somebody took advantage of a c# 4.0 only language feature [11:12] Robert Adams: gotta go... my avatar will stay here for me.... take care all [11:12] BlueWall Slade: I was able to run a couple of them, but on ly in my closed area [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya I don't know anyone who ran 2.8 for long [11:12] BlueWall Slade: see ya RA [11:12]  Dahlia Trimble: bye :) [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: see your Robert [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, 2.8 would be the minimum but the recommended would be 2.10 [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye robert [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we had great BulletSim meeting today btw. [11:12]  Teravus Ousley: tc [11:12]  Jak Daniels: the problem on linux is that most distros don't have that so there is a need to compile mono first from source which might be a barrier to some.... [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool [11:12]  Tiffany Magic: How is BulletSIM working now? [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: jak: well, from my analysis, debian squeeze is the only lagger at the moment [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: its improving, lots of great new stuff today [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: and wheezy should be out soon, though impossible to tell exactly when [11:13]  Dahlia Trimble: upgrading could disable other uses of a computer [11:13] Jak Daniels: mmmm..... i'm running on centos 5 ;-) [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its easy enough to compile mono into the user space too though [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, centos has no mono packages at all afaik :) [11:13] Dahlia Trimble: ever try installing python 3 on debian? OMG [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: without modifying the core system in anyway at all [11:14] BlueWall Slade: a nice trd party project would be to develop a set of scripts - like slackbuilds - to build mono [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats how we run everything at osgrid [11:14] Jak Daniels: yes it does... they are just not available anymore, but i have the rpms [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: you could literally run every version of mono simultaneously on the same hardware [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: jak: which is effectively the same thing in terms of having things work more out-of-the-box [11:14] Arielle Popstar: does compiling it on one version affect its ability to run on other versions? [11:14] BlueWall Slade: in theory, you do anyway [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it should not Arielle [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: but we can not gaurantee it wont [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: it depends on which version of .net yiou complet to [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: compile [11:15] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid release is built on Windows 7 x64 using .net 3.5.1 and Visual Studio 2008 [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: I dont see why we just dont target a .net version and leave it at that [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: funnily enough, I have accidentally been compiling the opensim binary 0.7.5-rc releases against .net 4.0 [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: which stops them working on mono 2.6.7 [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:15]  Jak Daniels: oh no... thats what i use ;) [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: also i know people have problems running opensimulator binary compiled in .net 3.5.1 [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: if all they have is .net 4.0 installed [11:16]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont have a problem with it [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: there are very wierd issues that pop up [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: well, we have been effectively targeting 3.5, but now the mod invoke needs 4.0 by the backdoor [11:16]  BlueWall Slade: I think some of the references to System.Core might give issues [11:16]  Dahlia Trimble: I build opensim in .net 3.5.1 [11:16]  BlueWall Slade: some of those odd/fringe cases [11:16]  BlueWall Slade: I do too [11:16]  Jak Daniels: what advantages will using modinvoke have? [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: it allows region modules to add script functions [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: ohhh, well 3.5 target framework on mono [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: that is what the params things ia all about? [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:17] Jak Daniels: ah, that would be useful [11:17] BlueWall Slade: cool [11:17] BlueWall Slade: useful [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, and I don't see any easy workaround [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: for the way its done atm [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I havent seen a problem with modinvoke either and I have a module that uses it [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: it will actually work for methods with less than 4 params and a return [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you overstep this then it goes boom [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: oh I dont think Ive used 4 [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: put them in a list [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: like llSetPrimitiveParams does [11:19] Jak Daniels: can it be made version agnostic, so if compiled on say mono 2.6, that function would not be available to a region module? [11:20] BlueWall Slade: I would just test the target framework at runtime and send a message if it is lower thatn needed [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the effective limit is actually 2 params and a return value, since hostID and scriptID are always passed in [11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: are there any core modules existing or planned that have >4 params? [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: it would be artifically strange to require those to use lists [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yes, the json store stuff requires it [11:21]  Dahlia Trimble: json is a dictionary [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: so? [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: a single object [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: so? [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: couldnt it be passed as such? [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: no [11:22]  BlueWall Slade: run them with json-rpc \o/ [11:22] BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: I suggest you look at the JsonStoreScriptModule [11:22]  BlueWall Slade: I would juist try to detect the runtime and issue a warning [11:22]  Jak Daniels: so does this json module create new scriptable commands at runtime? [11:22]  BlueWall Slade: that shoul dbe pretty easy to do until we do switch? [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: jak: yes [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: yes, someone could [11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: how about making the jsonstore optional/ [11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: ? [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSL_Script_Library/ModInvoke [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: the point is, that without updating this approach can't be used to add script functions with more than 2 params [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: so updating is going to happen, it's just a matter of when [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: we will need to clutivate some ways to workaround as we approach 3.0 [11:23] Jak Daniels: if the module is core, then couldn't the script commands be static in core also? or is this about creating RPCs? [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: jak: having these functions hard-coded in gets increasingly messy [11:24] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.5 Dev          aea90c1: 2013-01-27 13:37:58 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [11:24] Teravus Ousley wonders if nant does .NET 4.0 [11:24] BlueWall Slade: Jak - it is a way to write your own scriptengines [11:24] Jak Daniels: yes i understand that and having to put them in the osCommand space [11:24] BlueWall Slade: yes Teravus [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yes [11:25] BlueWall Slade: not 4.5 though [11:25] BlueWall Slade: you can pass a target to ./runprebuild.sh vs2010 [11:25] BlueWall Slade: if you have all your xml files to target 4.0, it will do it [11:25]  BlueWall Slade: bahhhh [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: Im starting to think the json store might be better off as an addin until the required runtime is pervasive [11:25] BlueWall Slade presses rewind [11:26] Teravus Ousley: ok, that's the only show stopper for me.. is if we have to teach everyone a cool new method to build OpenSimulator :) [11:26] BlueWall Slade: wrong part of the build system [11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: Im thinking of people using sim on a stick in education environments [11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: nant compiles to .net 4.0 right now by default [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: we have xbuild too [11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: they likely wont be able to upgrade [11:26]  BlueWall Slade: that is shipped with mono [11:26]  Jak Daniels: i agree..... [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we use xbuild on osgrid [11:27]  BlueWall Slade: so, if nant becomes an issue, xbuild or MS tools should work [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is why I'm in favour of waiting for wheezy to be released [11:27]  Jak Daniels: at the moment how many people will use the json store vs how many people are compiling opensim on their currently stable build boxes? [11:28]  BlueWall Slade: msbuild, I think [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: the other major linux distros that actually ship mono are alreayd up to 2.10 in their supported versions [11:28] Dahlia Trimble: wait for wheezy to be released and adopted [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: speaking of mono versions [11:28] BlueWall Slade: but.... [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i cleaned that up on Mantis the mono versions [11:28] BlueWall Slade: if we start playing with 3x and it does us good, we should have a plan [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: a plan? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: changed 2.6.3 to just 2.6 and i added mono 3.0 [11:29] BlueWall Slade: it would suck to give up performance gains waiting for distributions [11:29] Jak Daniels: i'm happy to try to build some mono rpms for RH/centos distros..... when i get some time [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: well, anybody can run the current code on mono 3.0 if they want [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it seems that sgen is not all its cracked up to be [11:30]  BlueWall Slade: yes, but if you use specific C#5 / .net 4.5 features it will need 4.5 as a minimum target [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: I found no benefit from sgen [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we see the same memory usage with stock gc and see much better performance [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, which is why that won't be possible for a long while [11:30] BlueWall Slade: some parallel things that might help [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: a lot of it is syntatic sugar as far as I can see [11:31] BlueWall Slade: I haven't looked really deap, and I have seen that mentioned. [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: is sgen now the default on mono 3.0? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:31]  BlueWall Slade: but, I have seen other things mentioned too [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: you still have to use mono-sgen [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it works ok with very few visitors [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: or a command line flag [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: as soon as you get like maybe 6-10 avatars [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: things start going sour [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: sim freezes up from time to time [11:32] Teravus Ousley: Has anyone tested OpenSimulator extensively on a 4.0 framework? :) The events in 4.0 are slightly different :) [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: extensively? lol [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: I have not at all tested in 4.0 [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: in what way? [11:32] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:32] BlueWall Slade: I have run it here in the past, not extensive though [11:32] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:32] Teravus Ousley: Let me see if I can pull up the documentation [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: my stuff runs flawlessly on .net 4 and blows up on any version of mono [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: maybe I should commit it and just say opensim requires windows [11:33] Jak Daniels: lol [11:33] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:33] BlueWall Slade: bzzzzzt wrong answer [11:33] Arielle Popstar: :) [11:33]  BlueWall Slade: no idea where it is happening? [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: no and mono people done either [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: its a bad memory leak [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: sgen doesnt help [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: and it doesnt exist in windows [11:34]  BlueWall Slade: well, maybe it is a method in an underlying library [11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: mono people think its a bug in the mono runtime [11:34]  BlueWall Slade: doyou have any tools for shecking [11:34]  BlueWall Slade: checking [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: electric fence? [11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: mono people sugested some debugging tools but they didnt show me anything [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: I guess they are busy as we are [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: lol [11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: well they get paid for mobile stuff [11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: wouldnt surprise me if thats where the priorities were [11:36]  BlueWall Slade: it seems to be [11:36]  BlueWall Slade: I'm surprised that they even exist afther the attachmete buyout of Novel [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: ya me too [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:37] Jak Daniels: many good initial open source projects get borked by commercial concerns just as they start to get good [11:37] BlueWall Slade: ok, we had a good conversation about the mono version and all those that give a damn enough to be here had a say in it... [11:37] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:37] BlueWall Slade: those that didn't oh well. [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: ha, you can's ay that bw :) [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: can't say [11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: he just did [11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: :-) [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: this meeting is not exactly convenient for everyone around the globe [11:38] Teravus Ousley: Meh, it may be a difference in 4.0 vs 4.5 [11:38] BlueWall Slade: I think it's early for 4.5 [11:38] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:39] BlueWall Slade: but I thihnk that will be tricky to navigate if we really use the features [11:39] BlueWall Slade: I just does run atm [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, any other opensim topics today? [11:41] Arielle Popstar: could be me but couldnt save an iar on the release before last Osgrid [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: nothing particular I am working on a little project that should enhance opensim a little bit [11:41] Nalates Urriah: Are the OpenSim's going to support the Materials System that hits RC tomorrow on SL? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i am making a massive mesh tree collection [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: tomorrow? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: that i will release as an oar [11:41] Arielle Popstar: nice [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: nothing has changed in the iar area so that would surprise me [11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: the materials implementation details have been a closely guarded secret [11:42] Jak Daniels: cool neb..... i like trees ;) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/snappytrees_015.png [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: I don't see why not once it has bedded in. I would have thought it's mainly a physics issue? [11:42]  Arielle Popstar: ok i will try from a different location in case it is my connection [11:42]  Bri Hasp: just what I want an orchard [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: nice [11:42]  Tiffany Magic: Justin: What improvements have been made in the latest 7.5 and I have heard rumors about 7.6. Can you give an update? [11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: nice, nebadon [11:43]  Nalates Urriah: No. I don't think any physiocs. Just attribute storage on objects. [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: google for the opensim changelog [11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: depends on what the attributes are and how they are communicated [11:43]  Arielle Popstar: heard rumour RC2 was out but didnt find a link? [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: downloads age [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: page [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Download [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: attribute storage is relatively simple, so that wouldn't be too complicated [11:44] Dahlia Trimble: there may be protocol changes [11:45] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:45]  Fearghus McMahon: hi all [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I think there woujld have to be at least an addition [11:45] Teravus Ousley: How about dynamic data :) [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess LL doesnt want to relive the day mesh hit the LL Beta grid [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: same day it hit opensim [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: well maybe not, its concievable that existing texture face descriptions could be adequate [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: and opensim just treats those as a blob [11:45]  Teravus Ousley wonders if we're still going to merge the generic object data container. [11:46]  Dahlia Trimble: how about changes to script functions that affect textures? [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yes, soon [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: are there some? [11:47]  BlueWall Slade: is that quality of that near what was propsed by Robert Adams? [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: what exactly are they adding? [11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: would seem there would be [11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: if you change a texture you probably want to change the normal map too [11:47] Teravus Ousley: Question on that.. and tell me to look at the code if this is answered there.. :) Is there going to be support for generic object serialization for inventory storage of objects and border crossing etc. ? :) [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: it's data storage only but it's something we have that works and nobody is violently disagreeing about [11:48] BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yes, that's in there - it's another xml attribute on the existing sop serialization [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm asusming it works though I haven't tested it myself [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there are flags in OpenSim.ini i believe that allow for script state to be passed [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: that might be a good example to follow [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: that's the part I didn't do originally though the implementation is in line with what Iexpected [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: its considered unsafe though i think and off by default? [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm confused? [11:49] Teravus Ousley: I'm just thinking that some cool things can be transfered that way.. like vehicle data maybe [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: script state is always passed - it's the dll that is not (which would be surpremely dangerous in any open grid) [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: Teravus is interested is in passing physics data there [11:49] Teravus Ousley: or other object 'state' data [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yes, that should be possible [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok i wasnt sure if it was or not [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest i go acrosss borders so little [11:50] BlueWall Slade: would be cool to have that [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:50]  Jak Daniels: except whan testing vehicles on bulletsim ;) [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: the interest is in getting vehicles to cross [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's still a big pain point - I think people have been conditions not to cross borders or to use megaregions instead [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: well even if it works only in your own regions [11:50]  Teravus Ousley: I think the average person runs into that.. until they train themselves not to try [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: you can't go across 5 sims in SL before hitting a dead region and hanging your session [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: say on same simulator [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be a big boost [11:51]  BlueWall Slade: trains, boats, planes, etc. would be nice here [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have to think border cross will always be difficult because the scenes are running in different threads [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: or is that too pessimistic? [11:51] Jak Daniels: i have found some sims on SL that are very good on sim crossings with a vehicle... perhaps they are all running on the same host or something? [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, makes me think of an old 60's song. ;-) [11:51] BlueWall Slade: I remember that part of the protocol was developerd for it a while back [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi invisions balistic missle attacks on tuesday meetings from far accrossed the grid [11:51]  BlueWall Slade: "Fat Packs" [11:51]  Teravus Ousley: border crossing in general is challenging, yes. [11:51]  Teravus Ousley: Especially at the physics layer :) [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: I dont have much problem crossing borders when I dont wear scripted attachments [11:52] Arielle Popstar: what about some love to megas then? [11:52] BlueWall Slade: Teravus, I have always wondered if the avatar control could remain in the region they are departing from [11:52] BlueWall Slade: and do that until they are synced [11:52] BlueWall Slade: like megaregions [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: that would be nice - though I think some of the fundamental issues could only be overcome on the viewer side [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: collisions would be difficult [11:52] Tiffany Magic: Again... I point out... Melanie has vehicles crossing simlines in Avination. [11:53] Teravus Ousley: Melanie has her own implementation of that stuff. [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: well she hasnt shared that [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya i'll have to ask her what the timeline on that is [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, it's up to Melanie whether or not she wants to release code [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i know she said eventually it would be shared [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as it doesn't hold back core opensim then it's up to her [11:53] Bri Hasp: Don't hold your breath [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: she said it would be [11:53]  dan banner: nice [11:53] Teravus Ousley: She has a script state share on regions.. and some kind of physics params exchange :) [11:54] Arielle Popstar: and how much of core has to be modified to include her changes [11:54]  Bri Hasp: Diva had us close many many years ago [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: according to Justin Teravus, we already have script state [11:54]  BlueWall Slade: we could cross non-phys prims [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: Not gaurenteed [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i knew we did i just wasnt sure its on by default [11:54]  BlueWall Slade: I had one that would travel across regions to it's target [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: It has to be 'enabled' and it's a security risk to do so [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin said thats dlls [11:55]  Teravus Ousley: that was my understanding. [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: not states [11:55]  BlueWall Slade: it doens't work now [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: we have option to pass states and dlls [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: dlls are the risk [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: and whats off by default [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: I'm prety sure state is transmitted, just not executable code [11:55] Teravus Ousley: ah [11:55]  BlueWall Slade: it dies near the border [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: though I'm not sure how transmitting executable code would help with broder crossing anyway [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i wrongly assumed both were off by default [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think anyway [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: pff, I should write a regressio ntest :) [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: then I would know [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: for sure [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:56]  Teravus Ousley: Still I see scripts die at the edge of regions and run the state_entry event in the region next door. [11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: is there a way to pass it only between certaion regions, say those all in a single estate? [11:56]  Teravus Ousley: so it must not be enabled where I've seen it.. [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe [11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: that might be an option for osgied [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: hmm, could be that script data is transmitted but not even state [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: event [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: I wonder if that was axed when we went http-vs-remoting? [11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: osgrid [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: I think that is about the time it quit working [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya its possible the script stuff is incomplete [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i cant say I ever tested it much [11:57] BlueWall Slade: I did [11:57] BlueWall Slade: and it worked for a time [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lets test it [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:57] BlueWall Slade: I'll give you a script [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks [11:58] Teravus Ousley: What have you been up to lately Justincc? :) [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: in temrs of opensim or just like, life? [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:59]  Teravus Ousley: somehow I whispered that. [11:59]  Teravus Ousley: just like life :) [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: felt way more dramatic whispered [11:59] Fearghus McMahon: grin [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: there is some funny stuff going on with whispering [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: seems to occur randomly [11:59] dan banner is Offline [11:59] Teravus Ousley: not even sure how I whispered it. :) [11:59] Teravus Ousley shouts: test [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi shouts: . [12:00]  Teravus Ousley: whoa control + enter shouts [12:00]  Teravus Ousley: shift + enter = Whisper [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: yep [12:00]  Teravus Ousley: that's how it happened [12:00]  Fearghus McMahon whispers: cool [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey shouts: ah [12:00]  Dahlia Trimble shouts: stop shouting! [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey shouts: ah [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i do that all the time [12:00]  Jak Daniels shouts: lol [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: typing to fast [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah [12:00]  Fearghus McMahon shouts: wha?! [12:01]  Jak Daniels: funny how we only find out these things by accident many years after being in SL/OS [12:01]  Fearghus McMahon: and yet wonder about it for long times ;) [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: life is me wondering how much time it will take me to get back onto a normal scehdule [12:02] Teravus Ousley: I have an excuse.. I've been mostly away from SL and the Viewer for a few years :) [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: It got completely borked over the last few weeks and now I'm getting up at 6:15pm again :( [12:02] Arielle Popstar: oh....PM [12:02]  Fearghus McMahon: ouch thats gotta hurt........ey...pm you say? [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [12:02] Teravus Ousley: I know what you mean.. and feeling tired at noon and going to bed no later then 2PM :) [12:02] Arielle Popstar: not a typo :) [12:03] Fearghus McMahon: no wonder you are able to do that much codin....yer a vampire! [12:03] Jak Daniels: is that partly a pressure of beign around and available during US time justin? [12:03] Teravus Ousley: I like to be awake for at least most of the time the sun is up :) [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: jak: not really, though it's partly because I don't need to go to a workplace for a 9-5 [12:03]  Teravus Ousley: but in practice.. my body likes to be awake at night. [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Getting up when it's already dark can be pretty unpleasant [12:04]  Arielle Popstar: and what in practice is the most productive time [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadON; i see some groups stuff is still causing trouble [12:04]  Jak Daniels: yeah same here.. i work from home and i am really cr*p at mornings ;-) [12:05] Fearghus McMahon: shrug...i go to work just before sunrise...and by the time i get back it is dark again...and thats an 8-5 job [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: what is this "morning" you speak of? [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess so [12:05]  Teravus Ousley: :) [12:05]  Fearghus McMahon: it's a myth [12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: faerghus: do you have windows? [12:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: group chat is juet.... horrible [12:05]  Fearghus McMahon: yeah but i use ubuntu too [12:05]  Arielle Popstar: sun rising in the eastern sky [12:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: *just [12:05]  Jak Daniels: lol [12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: the sun rises? hmmm... [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha [12:06]  Teravus Ousley: It's been rainy for several days here.. so ... it's not as bad [12:06]  Fearghus McMahon: ;) but true....they let us see the outside world where we work [12:06] Teravus Ousley: .. I don't feel like I have to go outside at least once when it's raining. [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :) *waves* [12:07]  Fearghus McMahon: well not unless it is shower time of course Teravus [12:07]  Arielle Popstar: tc Dahlia [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Dahlia [12:07]  Teravus Ousley: Ok, take care Dahlia [12:07]  Fearghus McMahon: c ya Dahlia [12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:07]  Jak Daniels: i was trapped in my house for nearly a week due to snow... now its blowing a gale... outside can be nasty ;) [12:07] Fearghus McMahon: a gale? [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: is there a current issue with the groups service? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so [12:08]  Jak Daniels: like a hurricane.. sorry, back to topic [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: wright plaza console is going crazy [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see that [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: very strange [12:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: looking up zillions of users', Justin? [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya probably someone is hitting a large group or something [12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: and reporting most are unavailable [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hard to read anything but looks like a lot of 'xmlrpc' vissues [12:09] Arielle Popstar: wright has not been this good for me as today in a long long time [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: no, it's not that [12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh kk [12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its possible that nginx is throtteling it [12:09]  stiofain nbmcmedia: hi folks [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: because its hitting the server to hard [12:09] Jak Daniels: i noticed that chat is laggy tonight... takes 30secs to see what i type sometimes [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it's like a communication with the groups service is failing and then the viwer is repeating it ad infiitum [12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: chat seems fine to me [12:09]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Stio [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya chat was ok for me as well [12:10] BlueWall Slade: it seems to be dead - groups [12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: but, i havent chatted much ;-) [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: it has lagged at certain poitns, though I don't know if it was this [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i am sure groups is dead [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: if i had to guess [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: since the console is screaming and we're still typing [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: i would say osgrid.org server is blocking [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: because its making to many requests [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: the apahe end? [12:10]  Bri Hasp: quick to me [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: nginx [12:10]  Bri Hasp: Singularity maybe [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: it only allows so many attempts per second [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: then it starts blocking [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: so in theory it would stop blocking eventually? [12:10]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: it might [12:11]  Adelle Fitzgerald: does it block only the source of the requests, Neb? [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: if the simulator calms down [12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: or everything? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: if its stuck in an endless request loop [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: then probably not until sim is restarted [12:11] BlueWall Slade: we should have some throttel on that on the region server side? [12:11] BlueWall Slade: throttle* [12:11] Teravus Ousley: In Simulator Features, I think is a way to tell the viewers the Max HTTP threads [12:11] Teravus Ousley: we don't implement it though. [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, probably some caching of data to tradeoff updating elsehwere against making so many requests [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: oh interesting [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: also caching the failure conditions like this one to wait before retrying [12:13] Arielle Popstar: What does it mean that Groups is third party rather then core? [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: it means there is no groups service in core at this time [12:13] Arielle Popstar: ok [12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: sometihng finally stopped - maybe the viewer spamming requests logged out [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: might be [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: Groups has always randomly exploded like that [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: i would not say its new [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: lately its not been as bad [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum [12:14] Arielle Popstar: wonder if it is a particular viewer? [12:14] Teravus Ousley: It's actually in the Seed Cap [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but that could very well be because of my tuning of nginx [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: i spent a few weeks really tuning everything [12:15] Teravus Ousley: MeshUploadFlag  https://sim4045.agni.lindenlab.com:12043/cap/d74823a8-3160-cc68-f018-50ba0db5a92a  Metadata   GetMesh   throttle  100  use-ssl  0   GetTexture   throttle  100  use-ssl  0 [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: oh sorry if i knocked you out of scroll back on the console [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: have to be careful with that [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: the sim totally locks when you scroll back on screen [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: no, sorry, was it still in? [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah I know _ i had just done it quickly to see if I could identify if a logout stopped it [12:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry [12:16] BlueWall Slade: have you tried the rest console? [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: ah no worries i thought i knocked you out [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: though I had stopped it [12:16]  Arielle Popstar: Adelle, you mentioned some interesting observations on group chat yesterday in the littlefield group [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: no, though I need to sometime [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: eventually the default console should really be one that isn't also spammed by all the log messages [12:17] BlueWall Slade: it needs a little love, bit is a really nice thing to have [12:17] Jak Daniels: where are all these shared media popup requests coming from now? [12:17] BlueWall Slade would like a curses based console that looks like Norton Commander [12:18] Teravus Ousley: video screens :) [12:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, when talking in group chat it seems to request online presence of every group member, then work out if they are online or not, then send the chat message just to those particular members that are online..... for each and every time you chat [12:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: which i believe is by design, in its current form [12:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: but its horrible [12:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: and sooo slow [12:18]  Arielle Popstar: nods [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: yes, there is a switch to improve that though it's not on by default [12:19]  Adelle Fitzgerald: but that just stops the console messages, right? [12:19]  Arielle Popstar: whats the switch? [12:19]  Adelle Fitzgerald: not that actual way it works [12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: MessageOnlineUsersOnly in [Groups] [12:20]  Arielle Popstar: oh that one [12:20]  Adelle Fitzgerald: interesting [12:20] Arielle Popstar: its on in osgrid release isnt it? [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Feature_Proposals/Improve_Groups_Service#Status_2 [12:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: does that change the way group messaging operates? [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it changes online query to use only one call and caches the results for a period [12:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh, nice. i should change that on my regions [12:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: thanks Justin [12:22] Arielle Popstar: opensim.ini or default.ini [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: it is not on by default for the osgrid ini [12:22] Fearghus McMahon: webpage says opensim.ini [12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe, i still just have one opensim .ini.. could never get my head around operating two [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I still label it as experimental because I havne't had much feedback as to whether it helps with the problem and I haven't had any other time to work on it at this point [12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill make the change on my regions, Justin. If i see anything untoward, I'll let you know [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: also, some of it is redundant with other settings which may need to be worked out [12:23] Arielle Popstar: wouldnt a plaza need to have it enabled to see how well it works? [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: it was enabled on plazas at one point - not sure if it still is [12:23]  Fearghus McMahon: i'll turn it on too to see...but i'm not in any chatty groups ;) [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I was also waiting for feedback from michelle argus but haven't seen her for some time [12:24]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think the real test is just chatting to a group that has many many members [12:24]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.5 Dev          aea90c1: 2013-01-27 13:37:58 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [12:24]  Arielle Popstar: heh enable it for bade this sunday [12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: when it was tested some time go it was hard to detect a difference, though maybe that was due to conditions on the day [12:25]  Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe just keep groups off Bade, it gets enough hammering during the meetings as it is hehe [12:25]  Arielle Popstar: lovew to see a dsg setup for that [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: alrigt, I need to pop off now [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks arund [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: ok, take care Justin [12:26] Teravus Ousley: Yep, prbably a good thing [12:26] Fearghus McMahon: take care Justin....and get some rest too ;) [12:26]  Arielle Popstar: tc Justin [12:26]  Teravus Ousley: take care :) [12:26] Jak Daniels: thanks justin, tc [12:26]  BlueWall Slade: bye justin [12:26] Bri Hasp: onwards with the creed JCC [12:26] Teravus Ousley: I'm going to do the same. Thanks for coming to the meeting [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey waves