Chat log from the meeting on 2010-08-17

[09:42] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon

[09:43] Richardus Raymaker: brb

[09:44] Akira Sonoda: Hello Nebadon!

[09:53] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: hi akira, neb

[09:55] Akira Sonoda: heya Rich!

[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: i have a burning question for neb in a minute

[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: k

[09:57] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, whats better. more expensive windows 2008 server or linux ? 2GB server memory.

[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: guess it depends on what your doing, linux is always techincally cheaper

[09:58] Frank Northmead is Offline

[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: some ISPs offer windows 2008 for no extra cost though

[09:58] Akira Sonoda: uii rich ... windows out of your mouth :-)

[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but it crash many times on 0fps. and with windows i can use delphi 2005 to make programs. under linux

much harder. no-gui :O

[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: not sure whats used to manage windows server besides plesk

[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: oh, and can you use a opensim linux build 1:1 on windows ?

[09:59] Nebadon Izumi: you can install GUI in linux servers

[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi aaron

[09:59] Nebadon Izumi: and connect with VNC

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: ive done it before

[10:00] Aaron Duffy: Hi

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: yes nebadon. but still mono is a problem i think.

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello Aaron

[10:00] Akira Sonoda: Hi Aaron

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: im not sure what windows give as extra

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of server management are you talking about?

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: Plesk is for website hosting management

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: not for manging windows servers

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: the hoster have 2008 web server or linux

[10:01] Richardus Raymaker: so you need some remote desktop

[10:01] Penny Lane is Online

[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: RDC

[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: its built into Windows

[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: you can even connect from linux to RDC

[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: ok. and what does windows give as extra compared to linux ?

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: depends on what your using it for

[10:02] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: honestly they both are capable of the same things

[10:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew

[10:02] Akira Sonoda: Hello Andrew

[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: my regions seems to get hit more child.master agents.. maby just need more meory

[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: but why is everybody useing windows if linux does the same ?

[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya 2gb total ram is really the very low end for OpenSim

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: well mono sucks

[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi folks

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: but thats not linux's fault

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: i have the crosshairs UUID for you

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: a85ac674-cb75-4af6-9499-df7c5aaf7a28

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: its in the Linden artpack

[10:04] Akira Sonoda: hey justin

[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks

[10:05] Penny Lane waves quietly

[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: but i would say windows works better with 2GB and .net

[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: i see bytw linux give segmenbt fault when you shutdown

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya for mono / .net 2gb goes alot further in .net

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: thats mono 2.6.7 Rich

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: sorry Mono 2.6.x

[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: amiga video nebadon ?

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: you need to use 2.4.2.3

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: no Dos

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: 1993

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: this was made

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: i use your 2.4.2.3

[10:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Being stuck using 2.4.2.3 doesn't help of course

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: its called Second Reality, demoscene by Futurecrew

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: honestly 2.6 isnt any better Otaku

[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: think i install a trail first on sempron laptop with 1GB memory :)

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: the same issues if not more issues are in newer versions

[10:07] peter scharmueller: hi folks .. okay for n00bs to stick around ?

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: mono will steadily get worse before it gets better

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: sure Peter

[10:07] peter scharmueller: thanks nebadon

[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: why?

[10:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, it has issues. When I was running head on Mono it used less memory and CPU, though.

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: the New GC

[10:07] OtakuMegane Desu: A lot less CPU

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: needs to be tested and debugged

[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: otaku, im thinking about windows 2008 web server edition. cost 20 euro more every month. but if it gives

more stability and i can use delphi 2005 with gui. HMMMM

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: it wont be perfect at 1st

[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, ok. No optio nto keep using the existing one?

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: with .7 at home i use mono 2.6.7

[10:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, I compiled the version of code you pointed to via IRC (I'm Plugh there), and still no joy. Most

odd.

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats wierd Andrew, i cant imagine why

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: Justin maybe, but the current one sucks

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: it wont get better

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: other thing normal you would say a linux builded opensim must run under linux. but am right ??

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: no

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: you can compile opensim in linux and run it in windows and vice versa

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: the resulting binary should be the same, i know diva said compiling in linux might have issues

[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: ok. thats 1 problem less

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: but ive not seen them

[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I've not seen them either

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: so, anybody more that cann add a note about linux VS windows. can windows run longer with many avatars ?

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: depends Richardus

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: in 32 bit yes

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: in x64 linux probably not

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: but you need lots of ram

[10:11] Richardus Raymaker: for linux or windows ?

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: also

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i have a hack for windows to improve it

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: but you need 3gb ram

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: 2gb ram not even worth trying the hack

[10:11] Richardus Raymaker: thats anpoth 10 euro :O

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: honestly 4gb ram would be better

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: 2gb ram is the bare minimum for OpenSim

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: this region right now is using over 4gb ram

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: for this meeting

[10:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Did this region crash just now?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: actually its only about 3gb ram

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: no Andrew

[10:12] peter scharmueller: ehm did anyone try to install opensim on a powerMac g5 ?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: no peter

[10:13] Andrew Hellershanks: odd. My viewer just vanished on me.

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: PPC is not supported anymore

[10:13] peter scharmueller: bummer

[10:13] OtakuMegane Desu: I tried on a G4 once, like a year ago. ODE simply doesn't work though and it was a huge pain anyway.

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: IBM tried to make it work, but they didnt have much luck

[10:13] Andrew Hellershanks: took some time to get back ehre.

[10:13] peter scharmueller: and what about i7 cpus ? hyperthreading is a go ?

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: though physics is single thread

[10:14] peter scharmueller: i c otakumegane ... no more pains in my ass lol

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: it wont take advantage of multicore cpus

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: but opensim itself can

[10:14] peter scharmueller: but can i run more sims on the machine then ?

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[10:14] Mojito Sorbet: Is there any special reason physics can not be multithread, or is this just because that is how somebody wrote

it?

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: mostly cause of how ODE is written

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: its 11 years old

[10:14] Akira Sonoda: heya tx :-)

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: there are some options in the newest ODE for multicore, but it doestn seem to work real well

[10:15] tx Oh: lo

[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: 1 other question left, it seems opensim 0.7.1 doesnt have profile support. i hope its added before the bump

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: very buggy

[10:15] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, changing to multicore takes time

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: no OpenSIM has profile support Richardus

[10:15] peter scharmueller: oki .. no experiments for a start

[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: 11 years, whow. then it can still do much

[10:16] OtakuMegane Desu: It's good that they're at least trying though.

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: Profiles are outside the scope of simulator

[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i heared different and my stanbdalone showed no picture storage to

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: osprofile is on forge, but its not 0.7 compatible yet i dont think

[10:16] Andrew Hellershanks: What is meant by "profile support"? 069PF has some at least AFAIK.

[10:17] Richardus Raymaker: does the wiki have a page with links to alle other module pahes, soudns handy

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: http://forge.opensimulator.org

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: not sure about wiki pages

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: If anybody wants to add links to the profile row on http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Feature_Matrix, that

would be good

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ive been planning on testing osprofile on danger grid, but have not yet

[10:19] Adam Frisby is Online

[10:20] OtakuMegane Desu:.

[10:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Is profile support something that has been removed from 0.7 or it was never part of OS as of 069PF?

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was part of Redux

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: for previous versions

[10:20] Andrew Hellershanks thinks Profile Support means something different than the other people mean.

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure if it was part of 0.6.9 or not

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: Avatar Profiles

[10:20] Richardus Raymaker: profile support = avatar info for me

[10:21] Adam Frisby yawns. Morning

[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: morning

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, actually, I don't think any profile stuff is in core opensim now that I look at the db tables

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: hey Adam

[10:21] peter scharmueller: morning adam

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hi Adam

[10:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Which to me is an important feature and is in 069PF from what I've seen. Other than not being able

to have the viewer be able to access/save notes about other avatars on meets.

[10:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Adam.

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: im pretty sure OSprofiles was removed

[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: s/on meets/one meets/

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: sorry profiles

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: but we really need to update modules

[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: if its broke after the bump. we need a bomb shelter i guess

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: 2 modules really need fixing

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ossearch and osprofiles

[10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: If we ever reach the bump lol

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: i do not think either work with 0.7 100%

[10:23] Andrew Hellershanks: ossearch is something I'm looking at in 069 and is working for me but there are extra things I'd like it

to do re: results to the viewer.

[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: i have the feeling the bum is somewhere at 0.7.5

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: and if you search places in world it works Andrew?

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: for me it does not work

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: the indexing works

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: but in world search does not

[10:23] peter scharmueller: for me not either

[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: no, places I think may not be working but I'm working on fixing land sales first. It isn't working right

if it finds results from an OS instance you aren't in.

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: well thats the most important part of search if you ask me

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: user search is built in, the only reason to have search is for places

[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: land sales seems only to work if you buy it under edit menu

[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: The first part is always trying to find out the message passed from viewer to OS

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: without places search land sales is useless

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: people can buy land but not find it

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt make any sense to me

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: sounds like a recipe for pissing folks off

[10:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm getting land sales results but the TP data isn't set right

[10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: are those messages now caps or are they still udp?

[10:25] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, don't know. I'm still getting in to how the viewer and OS communicate.

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the problem with land search

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: teleport doesnt work

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: also parcel descripton and image does not come through either

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: actually i lie

[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it's possible to get opensim to spew out all incoming and outgoing messages if you type "debug

packet 255" on the command line. "debug packet 0" turns that off again

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: teleport works

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: if the parcel you search for is in the same sim

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: if its outside the simulator your in it fails

[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: sometimes using libomv's grid proxy is the easier method, though

[10:26] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, It needs to use a different means to get the results than its using now. Something like the

getRegionByUUID (or whatever its called that I had used in implementing retrieving map tiles via OSSL)

[10:26] Adam Frisby: Yeah, gridproxy is the way to go if you are packet handling.

[10:27] Adam Frisby: Although, fingers crossed - the new LGPL license might make it so we can finally look at how the viewer does it

[10:27] Andrew Hellershanks: There is the Open Source viewer code (Snowglobe?). Is it ok to look at that without losing ability to

contribute to OS code?

[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that would be very interesting. We do need to be pretty cautious, though

[10:27] Adam Frisby: Andrew: not yet.

[10:27] Andrew Hellershanks: k

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Andrew

[10:28] Adam Frisby: We need to get a legal opinion, but potentially.

[10:28] Adam Frisby: I think there's hope.

[10:28] OtakuMegane Desu: New license?

[10:28] Frank Northmead is Online

[10:28] Adam Frisby: Yeah, LL switched to LGPL on Snowstorm

[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm staying out of the viewer stuff for now.

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: I think now that M is gone too and Philip is in charge, opensource stuff will be actually open

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: did the swithc the GUI "back" to old style to ?

[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Its bad enough having to find things in OS let alone deal with another huge code base. ;-)

[10:28] Adam Frisby: I dont know; Philip oversaw the original GPL decision.

[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes, that's best until the situation becomes clear

[10:29] Adam Frisby: Personally, I think it was a certain few developers who left a few months ago, then the remainder left recently.

[10:29] OtakuMegane Desu: If you can work with viewer and opensim oh yes that'd be nice.

[10:29] Adam Frisby: I think Babbage may have put the idea into LL's head about LGPL too

[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: the sim or some persone babbage ?

[10:29] Cael Thunderwing: neba,

[10:29] Cael Thunderwing: sorry to interrupt but,

[10:29] Adam Frisby: Babbage Linden

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was interesting that phillip addressed the question about exporting your own content from SL to

OpenSim

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: he said it was ok

[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: If I can figure out why I can't get the grid server to start on my own machine I'll be able to do more in

trying to fix some of the issues re: ossearch

[10:30] Adam Frisby: I didnt watch his presentation, but that's great news too

[10:30] Adam Frisby: I might watch that presentation tommorow

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya it was a good presentation

[10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: I should probably go watch that, sounds actually promising

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: i highly recommend watching if you have not

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: that and the Snowstorm presention also

[10:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I want to see what Phillip had to say about mesh support

[10:30] Cael Thunderwing: ?

[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, export your won stuff. but if its build with other textures it fails. so easy talking from philip

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: Mesh is coming 100%

[10:30] Cael Thunderwing: *from the grid

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: by the end of the year

[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: oh not use SI in 1 year or so

[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, Probably only in viewer 2 I bet.

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh, philip actually talked about opensim?

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: SL has officially said no more Viewer 1 dev

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: they want to phase viewer 1 out

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer is Online

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: Philip even mentioned a forced upgrade

[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, well. That's one way to get us on to viewer 2

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: when meshes are out

[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: but viewer 2 is still screwed as long the use new gui

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: he said its likely the only forced upgrade we'll see

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: is when meshes hit

[10:32] Penny Lane: The reason for the 6-month period before was not the GPL though, it was that the source was LL's. That still

applies. I'd like to see the 6-month col-down dropped simply because it had no legal basis. This new Snowstorm thing is an opportunity for

Opensim to adopt a more logical position, and one based on law not on wishful thinking.

[10:32] OtakuMegane Desu: ***** social networking design. :P

[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I want meshes but will have to find out how to convert from the 3D modelling program to the Collada(?)

format to be used in the grid

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: well LL did not relicense Viewer 1

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: only viewer 2

[10:32] tx Oh: well, snowglobe declared dead

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: so anyone who looked at viewer 1 code would still have to take 6 month break

[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: lawyers seem to feel there is a grey area concerning derived works

[10:33] Penny Lane: JCC: no they don't. They're very clear about it.

[10:33] Andrew Hellershanks: brb... checking on the cat

[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: got any links?

[10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Aside from the crappy gui, I would think shifting to viewer 2 is sorta good.

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect the viewer 2 UI is in for radical design changes coming up

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt get to hung up on the current UI

[10:34] tx Oh: has good new features

[10:34] Penny Lane: JCC: got any links? (It's Opensim that came up with the daft 6-month policy, you have to defend it, not turn the

argument around)

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: it wont always be that way

[10:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh i know lol

[10:34] Richardus Raymaker: how can it be gtood if you cannot use it ?

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: Penny if you going to argue against it you need to defend your argument

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: or stop arguing it

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:34] OtakuMegane Desu: But I still enjoy bitching about anything that seems social network oriented. :P

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: wer cant go on your opinion

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: we*

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: you need to provide factual information we can use

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: otehrwise policy will not change

[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, let's discuss something else - we won't get anywhere with that

[10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: True

[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: seems to be a lot of drama around the emerald viewer suddenly

[10:35] Penny Lane: Neb: the 6-month period has no basis in law, anywhere. I do not need to defend my argument. You conjured 6 months

up out of thin air. There is nothing in copyright law nor in patent law that expires on 6 months.

[10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh yes. Emerald.

[10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:35] Adam Frisby: Penny: the 6 month limit comes from several teams of highly paid IP lawyers.

[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: hi everyone :)

[10:35] Adam Frisby: It's based on the human memory

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: I had no part in OpenSimulator policy

[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia

[10:36] Adam Frisby: Specifically what is the upper limit in how long someone can remember something and reimplement it faithfully.

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: im not on the OpenSimulator dev team

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: lots of people seem to be looking seriously at imprudence now

[10:36] Adam Frisby: or effectively, how long an ass covering period you need before someone cant possibly argue that in court

[10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Basically them Woodbury rascals get to say "I told you so."

[10:36] Richardus Raymaker: i hope the have emerald v2 before LL does something stupid

[10:36] Dahlia Trimble: oh we're talking about the 6 month issue? I'm outtahere. Bye :)

[10:36] Adam Frisby: haha

[10:36] Penny Lane: Adam: which you refuse to reveal. A lawyer that refuses to make his arguments public is a charlatan. You need to

name a legal theory.

[10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: And the core guy for Emerald is gone.

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: man, she wasn't joking

[10:37] Adam Frisby: Oh I thought she was

[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: me too :)

[10:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm only interested in looking at viewer code to see how some data is passed between it and OS. I don't

care about the rest of the code in the viewer side.

[10:37] Adam Frisby coaxes Dahlia back on IRC

[10:37] Penny Lane: Anyway, what is past is past. I hope you guys take this opportunity to revise the contrib policy for Snowstorm.

[10:37] Adam Frisby: We're looking at it, and optimistic - but we'll need to get some advice first

[10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Emerald is probably going to fall a lot int he coming months. When even devs can't trust what's in the code,

users certainly shouldn't.

[10:38] Adam Frisby: but the LGPL is indeed safer than the GPL

[10:38] Penny Lane: Cool, Adam

[10:38] tx Oh: http://hg.secondlife.com/viewer-development/ goes back to 2007

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya honeslty too even if we change the policy, i dont expect viewer devs are going to be jumping on commiting

code to opensim

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: i think it will be the most anticlimatic change ever

[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: we have to be careful though, in case LL gets taken over by a company with far less friendly policies

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: we might get one or 2 devs

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if policy changes

[10:39] Adam Frisby: Yeah, Justin has the main point - if it's a nasty company that takes over LL, or LL has a change in management for

the worse, we're ultimately liable as distributors of OpenSim, so we need to tread carefully here.

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya the old Oracle factor

[10:39] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) c313126: 2010-08-06 00:00:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[10:39] Adam Frisby: Yeah, they did a wonder on Java with their Google suit

[10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Even so, being able to look at both code sources should help some even for current devs.

[10:39] Adam Frisby: Yeah, I think honestly at this point in OpenSim's life cycle - being able to look at the viewer is more useful for

the viewer team.

[10:40] Adam Frisby: OpenSim is functionally fairly comprehensive -- we dont need the viewer to implement anything anymore.

[10:40] Adam Frisby: So any changes we make are likely going to be viewer improvements

[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. And in a funny way, not looking at the viewer means we're a little less likely to replicate its bugs

[10:40] Adam Frisby: That too. Although we did make our own

[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, good point - we have more than enough ourselves :)

[10:40] Adam Frisby: ;)

[10:40] Penny Lane: Oracle has indeed given everyone in FOSS a wakeup call. The message is, don't rely on anything tied to a single

company, and always expect the worse from corporations.

[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: that's very tough though - so many open-source projects effectively have a sponsoring company

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya honestly i dont think the benefit we would gain from a couple of viewer devs would have much impact on

opensim in the long run honestly

[10:41] Richardus Raymaker: money still attracts the bears

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: i know alot of people claim they would work on opensim if the policy changed

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont beleive them

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: i think people just like to argue over policy

[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: the proof is always in the pudding

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: heeh

[10:41] Adam Frisby: Yeah, OpenSim is a big scary codebase, getting up to speed these days is a lot harder than previously.

[10:41] OtakuMegane Desu: If it helps improve the viewer side though, that's nice. The viewers are more lagging behind opensim now.

[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: yeah - I do wonder if that puts people off

[10:42] Adam Frisby: Yeah; I've been pseudo-away from OpenSim for the last 6 motnhs, only got back into coding in the last month or

two; and it took a while to get aquainted again.

[10:42] Richardus Raymaker: hope its a alpha gel pudding

[10:42] Adam Frisby: and that's someone who's been coding at it for like 4 years now

[10:43] Adam Frisby: I think it might be time to really begin discussing what we want in a 1.0, and maybe simplify some stuff down in

the process of getting there.

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[10:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Adam, yeah, tell me about it. I'm trying to jump in to fix some minor issues but get lost in the code.

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya even taking 2-3 weeks off can be daunting

[10:43] Penny Lane: Direct cooperation between viewer and Opensim devs could make this whole area just explode. Devs have been working

with one arm tied behind their backs.

[10:43] tx Oh: well, there are some features in 2.x which needs opensim enhancement too

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: Penny there already is Direct cooperation

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: thats nonsense

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: we work very close with Imprudence devs

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: and Realxtend team

[10:44] tx Oh: like the shadow mask for local light sources

[10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: At this point I doubt there will be a huge boost. But the change could smooth out some rougher areas on both

sides at the very least.

[10:44] tx Oh: and those settings

[10:44] Penny Lane: Neb: there's indirect copperation --- you're not allowed to look at Imprudence code for example

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt want to

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: even if i could

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: you could not pay me to look at LL viewer code

[10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: and i imagine most of the opensim devs feel the same

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: we wouldnt look at the code just cause we can

[10:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Some better docs about the current OS code base andhow things work would help those of us just starting to

get our feet wet in its development

[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: yeah - I think that ultimately a core component has to drop out. Something that knows very little

about the specifics of the virutla nevironment that it deals with

[10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Dunno about opensim being a big scary codebase. The viewer code scares the hell outta me lol.

[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: hey, I agree :) But lots of our devs.... aren't the most volumnious documentation writers

[10:45] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, too busy coding. :-)

[10:45] Bubble Sort: hi, I'mnew here, just luckily stumbled into this meeting... really interesting stuff... but is there any chance of

changing the osMakeNotecard command so it will run through the dataserver event any time soon so we can lower it's threat level?

[10:45] Adam Frisby: Yeah; doc writing is hard. arguably it requires just as much time as coding.

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: and techincally i can look at the viewer code

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: im not a OpenSim Core Dev

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: i choose not too

[10:45] Penny Lane: Well there's a legal bar to doing that currently. But if the Opensim policy changes, then for a server-side dev to

refuse to look at viewer-side code EVER would be irrational.

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: not if the protocol is clearly outlined, but you have to remember

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSIM's goal is not to be a SL emulator

[10:46] Andrew Hellershanks: the problem is doc writing almost needs to be done by someone who knows the code base, which means a dev

who would usualy be spending time coding

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats a small part of this project

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: honestly

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: its not the end goal

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: its not even a top goal

[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: Bubble: if there was a patch I think it would be considered

[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: and then the doc is done. and then everything change again.

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: the sooner we can move away from SL for me the better

[10:46] Penny Lane: Agreed

[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes... though I honestly would regard doc writing as part of the professional discipline of coding

[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: agree nebadon

[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: true - a fast changing codebase has historically made doc writing less useful

[10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Documentation is good. Even if it just points out wtf a routine does.

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to have 100% SL compatibility

[10:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Richard, some docs would be better than nothing at all. Even out of date it might be able to give some

overview of things like object hierarchy and what info is tracked by what stuff, etc.

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: but thats and endless tunnel of insanity

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: if you ask me

[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: there is stuff scattered about the wiki but in the main part it's very old

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: everytime we get close SL changed everything

[10:48] Dorothea Lundquist is Offline

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: that wont ever change i dont think

[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: if you want the lead nebadon. then you cannot stay running behind sl

[10:48] Bubble Sort: where should this documentation happen? I'm not a bad tech writer, but I"m no developer... you need somebody to

work on a wiki?

[10:48] Penny Lane: Otaku: Even a simple "WTF?" in a function header is sometimes useful as "documentation", points to dodgy coding :-)

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: always Bubble

[10:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Jcc, yeah. and some pages have links to pages that don't exist but the content they would have linked to

exists elsewhere in the wiki.

[10:48] OtakuMegane Desu: SL has their own destination. Opensim has a different path.

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: anyone can edit the wiki

[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: buble: oh god, we *always* need people to work on the wiki

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: if you need guidance you can join the IRC channel

[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: and ok, some docs are good.

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: #opensim and #opensim-dev

[10:48] Bubble Sort: the wiki on opensimulator.org, right?

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[10:49] Adam Frisby: The wiki needs a small trip through /dev/null

[10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Mental note to see if I can sweep up some stuff in the wiki.

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:49] Adam Frisby: I honestly think there's more bad information on the wiki than good

[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: speaking of things that are out of date, I'm seeing references to 0.7 but project news on wiki hasn't been

updated since January. Is there anyone who has normally been updating that part of the wiki?

[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: It's a lot better now, I think

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya its got alot of good info

[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: but it's quite sparse around a lot of subjects

[10:49] Bubble Sort: ok, I'll try to help out there then

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSIm is just very complicated

[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yes

[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yup

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: and there just is no easy button

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: people want an easy button

[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[10:50] OtakuMegane Desu: The wiki is better than it used to be but a lot of even basic things liker installation are a confusing,

outdated jumble

[10:50] OtakuMegane Desu: When there's something at all.

[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I think sdague was doing it, but he left a year ago

[10:50] Snoopy Pfeffer is Offline

[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: otakumegane: I did overhaul those docs recently, so I think it's better now

[10:50] Dorothea Lundquist is Online

[10:51] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, I partly mention it because there are packages available for 0.7 but I don't think i've seen any

"formal announcement" about 0.7 or its current status.

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to document something that changes every day

[10:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Haven't looked in a month or two

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: it literally changes everyday

[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you didn't see the announcements on the mailing list?

[10:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I should probably join the mailing list.

[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah :)

[10:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm on so many already.

[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I also blog them, but just on my own blog

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya if your going to modify the wiki in any heavy way

[10:51] Penny Lane: Adam: Babbage Linden (who got fired along with other UK Lindens) raised a lot of eyebrows yesterday when he replied

that he was very interested in Opensim, and that he had been talking to your guys.

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: you should announce what your doing on the mailing list

[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that would be good for any major mods

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: Linden labs has always been interested in OpenSIm

[10:52] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, I did do a search of the ml archives about 0.7

[10:52] tx Oh: the bad word again, mailinglist

[10:52] Adam Frisby: Yeah, Babbage has been in discussion with a couple of us -- the problem is LL devs are a definite legal minefield.

[10:52] Bubble Sort: pathfinder tweeted about opensim yesterday... lots of ex-lindens are interested in tis

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: they have never expressed they are against it, and infact been very supportive

[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: we are in the process of thinkjing about the current contirbution policies

[10:52] Adam Frisby: Since most of them signed non-competes and other things which could get them and us into hot water

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya i know

[10:52] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, found a mention or two about 0.7

[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: diva has been making announcements to the lists

[10:53] Andrew Hellershanks: tx, ML's have their uses

[10:53] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, yeah. I noticed that. Perhaps diva can be persuaded to add something to the project news wiki page.



[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: the good part about mailing list, its permanent record

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: unlike IRC

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: that whizzes by at 5000mph

[10:53] Richardus Raymaker: :P

[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yeah, it probably would be good to update that

[10:54] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, I agree. I was able to seach the list archives for any announcement about 0.7

[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's why I really don't like making decisions on IRC. There are too many of us spread over too many

timezones

[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: as well

[10:54] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, anyone looking at project news page might think its dead. Nothing changed in almost 6 months.

[10:54] Penny Lane: Heh

[10:54] Adam Frisby: I think that's 18 months, checkthe Yar

[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: ahhhh, it's always a pain when there's another page to maintain, though

[10:55] Adam Frisby: Year*

[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe we should just delete it instead..... :)

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: hehhe thought it was pirate day for a sec

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: yar!

[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: aaaaar

[10:55] Hiro Protagonist is Online

[10:55] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, true but just a quick addition of a line to say "rev 0.x.x.x was just release would be helpful with a

link to any page of release notes"

[10:55] Adam Frisby: YAAARRR!

[10:55] Adam Frisby: Anyone else starting to getchat lg?

[10:55] Andrew Hellershanks laughs

[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: test

[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: hey it's a wiki - feel free to do that ;)

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: not at the moment

[10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: Or simply a "I'm not dead yet!" message

[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: yes i se lag

[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: and no

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: i noticed a tad bit of chat lag earlier

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but it was cause someone was logging in

[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: little bit delay soemtimes

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: its aalways whn someone logs in or out

[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: hi doro

[10:56] Adam Frisby: I think it might be my viewer

[10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: I've been getting lag on and off the whole meeting

[10:56] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, sure. I could possibly go back and do that but not being that in to the heavy development side of OS

I don't fell that qualified to provide info about new releases.

[10:56] Adam Frisby: I'm just using Hippo 0.5 (the old one)

[10:56] Dorothea Lundquist: hello :)

[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: fair enough. Alright - what's the page link?

[10:57] Hiro Protagonist: Hey Everbodeh

[10:57] Kyle Souter: Horrible lag

[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: hope someday that problem is fixt. but i see the same problem in sl to sometimes. togheter with other old

openmsim bugs there.:O

[10:57] Andrew Hellershanks is on Hippo 0.6.2 and there has been some brief bits of chat lag.

[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: hello Hiro and Dorthea

[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: I think fixing this lag might require thread prioritization support in mono

[10:57] Adam Frisby: Yo Hiro

[10:57] Hiro Protagonist: sorry I'm late, its my day to be the cab driver lol

[10:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Chat lag on log. We're back to that again, huh?

[10:57] Hiro Protagonist: Heya Adam! :)

[10:57] tx Oh: i use imprudence and some of you are white

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: ive noticed that with imprudence too

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: the white avatars

[10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, go to OS home page and News link is in menus down left side (third from top)

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: i dont get that with hippo

[10:58] Richardus Raymaker: hnnm justin makes me again curious to windows server

[10:58] Richardus Raymaker: i understand from justin widnows dont have that problem ?

[10:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Windows has its own problems

[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: say one or 2

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya opensimulator is most of the problem

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:59] Adam Frisby: Not as many as Mono. ;) (*hides from Hiro*)

[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: or IM me otaku

[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... some would say Windows is a problem.

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: the LL protocols are not the best

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: there is chat lag in SL too

[10:59] Hiro Protagonist: lol

[10:59] Adam Frisby: Actually, how is that going, I'm a little out of the loop with Mono

[10:59] Adam Frisby: is it still totally broken?

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: mono is not good

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: if anything its gotten worse

[10:59] Hiro Protagonist: it depends on what you want out of life I guess LOL

[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: why would you hide adam, hiro use windows sofar i know

[10:59] Akira Sonoda nods to Andrew :-)

[10:59] Hiro Protagonist: and what version you are running too

[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: windows might be better, though because the thread stuff isn't on mono the processes might not

be optimized for windows

[10:59] OtakuMegane Desu: When you look at them both, Windows and Linux/mono are both about the same. Both can run opensim, both have

issues as well.

[10:59] Hiro Protagonist: not much new really same old moving target

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya mono 2.4.2.3 is the only stable footing for opensim

[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: and to some extent I'm speculating - I'm not sure how effective prioritizatio nwould be

[11:00] OtakuMegane Desu: You just pick the one you're most comfortable running.

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: Well Melanie is running a custom version of Mono with microthreading

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: and tons of optimizations

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Running a grid using Linux would make some admin and deployment tasks easier but some other support staff

would have a little bit of trouble as they wouldn't know Linux but that could be worked around for OS instance restarts.

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: its still about 50% slower than .net

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: maybe more

[11:00] Hiro Protagonist: yeah we need to get her to start pushing some of those changes back up to the main mono repo

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they would accept it

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: But is mono isn't working as well in Linux vs. in Windows, not going to change things anytime soon

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: most of her modifications are not really suitable for mono core

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: they are suitable for running opensim

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: okay, page updated :)

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: not the majority of mono apps

[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: if someone can tell me iafter this whats bad with windows. im still 40% intressted :O

[11:01] Penny Lane: Neb: Melanie's own microthreading, or that new stuff Miguel was talking about some time ago?

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: Melanies own

[11:02] Penny Lane: Oooh, interesting

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: they have written a crap load of stuff in Assembly

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: its very low level

[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: thats the best ^^

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: jcc, ok, cool. Kind of like updating wiki by proxy. hehe

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: they basiclly rewrote mono

[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: thats not so good i guess

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: its not really something that can be contributed back to the mono project

[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: especially not with how the test it with opensim

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes Melanie runs a custom opensimulator too

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: its very far from stock

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: so without all of their code, its not going to work

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: If I can get a few things off my todo list (I wish), I could search ML archive for other items to go on

news page

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it would also break windows

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: Melanies OpenSIM can not run in .net

[11:03] Hiro Protagonist: ahhh

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it uses Linux Only Kernel functions

[11:03] Adam Frisby stabs Neb. OpenSim. SIM isnt an acryonym. >_> <_<

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:03] Penny Lane: lol

[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: OPENsim

[11:04] Adam Frisby stabs otaku with a fork

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: it stands for SUcks in Mono

[11:04] Hiro Protagonist: ROFL

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu counters with spork.

[11:04] Penny Lane: haha

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks laughs

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: brb

[11:05] Penny Lane: Damn, the coffee nearly spilled there, lol

[11:05] Bubble Sort: LOL, btw, I"m still exploring this grid, if anybody has any useful LMs drop them on me, plz... thanks :)

[11:05] Hiro Protagonist: speaking of coffee I think I could use a cup, brb too

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: anway the biggest problem with microthreading i understand is there is no easy way to make it work the same in

mono and .net right now

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: but i could be wrong about that, im mostly going on things ive heard, not things ive come to realize on my own

[11:06] Penny Lane: I wonder if there's anything that could be farmed out into native code that would make Mono suck less for the rest.

Some key piece that's screwing GC maybe.

[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, mono is not open enough. diva is linux only.., windows have so its own pits uhmm

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: no diva is primarily Windows Rich

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but she does alot of Linux testing

[11:07] Adam Frisby: Actually

[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: ok, but never use diva distra :O

[11:07] Adam Frisby: There's a pure C# way of doing microthreading

[11:07] Hiro Protagonist: you would really need some sort of virtual machine that could run well on both mono and .net

[11:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Ohh

[11:07] Adam Frisby: Babbage Linden did it for LL; and I know John Hurliman has been working on something similarm but hasnt ever had

the time to finish it

[11:08] Hiro Protagonist: intreresting

[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Needs moar threads.

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya would be nice

[11:08] Hiro Protagonist: Needs moar of moar

[11:08] Penny Lane: Aye. Babbage did injection of yield points into assemblies.

[11:08] Bubble Sort: the book I"m studying now on visual C++ has a chapter in the back on multi-threading, I didn't get that far yet,

though

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: though so far unlike SL we dont have to jam 10000 scripts into 1 simulator

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we can just fire up 10 more simulators for free

[11:08] Hiro Protagonist: crafty, yet elegant

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: and spread the load

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Bubble, depends what you consider useful

[11:09] Adam Frisby: Bubble: actually OpenSim is fully multithreaded -- it's microthreads we are caring about

[11:09] Adam Frisby: a normal thread is too heavy for running thousands of them at once

[11:09] Adam Frisby: microthreads are basically a way of inlining an entire thread into another thread via interleaves

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya so hover text doesnt use a whole thread

[11:09] Adam Frisby: Lot more complex; but big performance boost on stuff like scripts where there are thousands of iterations

[11:09] Bubble Sort: andrew: anything interesting is useful to me

[11:09] Dorothea Lundquist is Offline

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya unloading scripts would see big benefit as well

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Bubble, I only have 3 LM's here. I haven't spent much time exploring the grid

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: not just starting and running them

[11:10] Hiro Protagonist: that kinda gets inherited from scripts running in a state machine

[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: they describe it's state

[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: but yeah

[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: it's like immutable assets - a great theory heh

[11:11] Penny Lane: LL's microthreaded engine is probably their single most impressive subsystem ... yet they fired the guy responsible

for it, Babbage. They're on a different planet or something.

[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: microthreading sound and is still cool.

[11:11] Bubble Sort: oh, ok, so it's like strided lists, kind of... got it

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i think there is probably alot of opensim optimization needs doing though too

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: microthreading wont be the end all fix to performance

[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: yes but lists of instructions

[11:11] Snoopy Pfeffer is Online

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: cause honestly performance is not much better on melanies grid

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: a .net region on osgrid still out performs anything melanie is doing

[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: maby it keeps better with many scripts ?

[11:12] Hiro Protagonist: well, that may be true, but making the sim stable under heavy scripting load is a good thing

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ive provent that on several occasions

[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: intressting. think i download 2008 trail after the meeting :)

[11:12] Hiro Protagonist: once execution is stable it can be optimized

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the Klein Bottle rezzer is a prime example

[11:12] Hiro Protagonist: yeah thats pretty impressive shit

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: a stock opensim on .net rezzes a 46000 prim klein bottle twice as fast as melanies stuff

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: but rezzing doesn't have anything to do with scripts

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: yes it does

[11:13] Penny Lane: 46k prim? O.O

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its pure scripted rezzer

[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Unless you are comfortable in Wondows, don't go switching operating systems based on what's wrong now.

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: this is a scripted build sequence

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its rezzed from a script

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: pure math

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: insane math

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: let me send you script

[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: my problem is more writeing tools under linux

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: crap, more errands!

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: When i was looking in to the prim linking order, I saw some things related to (un)linking that I thought

could be optimized.

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: ok. but rezzing would still soak up a lot of time

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: I'll be back, if anyone's still around ;)

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey accepted your inventory offer.

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: thats the script

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: kk Later Hiro

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: did you mean to send it no copy/no mod?

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: catch up in a bit for testing on your grid

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ooh sorry

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey accepted your inventory offer.

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh i always do that

[11:14] Snoopy Pfeffer is Offline

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, but this is a script with no events whatsoever

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its a nasty script

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its timer

[11:15] Penny Lane: Maybe default perms should be on, in an open grid, just like they're default off on a proprietary one

[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: wel, i can at least take a look local at the 2008 server otaku. and possible start to run very fast after

that

[11:15] Mojito Sorbet: Latif was looking at a package - I forget its name, that does code inspection/injection on C# assemblies

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or maybe not i cant remember

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its still nasty and tends to explode mono

[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, nothing wrong with checking it out

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: on a stock mono this script rezzes about 300 prims

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and dies

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: on .net it rezzes 46000 prims in about 1 hour and 40 minutes

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: it took melanie about 4 hours

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: it's just a single function. Performance isn't impacted by microthreading, unless you have a bunch of other

scripts running at the same time

[11:15] Penny Lane: Hi Mojito :-)

[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: Can I have a copy, Neb? Wanna see how it does

[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: lol onl 1 hour 40 minutes

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: sure 1 sec

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i have an IAR of the whole kit

[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: wel, im intressted in a copy to

[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: if i can use it on standalone

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: its much easier to send you the IAR link

[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: aha

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/iars/klein_bottle_generator_v2.iar

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: send the link and that can be put write on the load iar command line

[11:16] Adam Frisby: brb

[11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Cool

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/klein_bottle_08.png

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: this is the end result

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: mono really cant run it at all

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: has mic seen that yet? I think he would be interested

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: he might have

[11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: A wild Klein Bottle has appeared!

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i showed Jhurliman

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: klein bottles in the wild :)

[11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Just hope it doesn't decide to use Divide/0

[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: and how much memory did it use ? :)

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: also

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: before you run the script be sure to comment out the sleep

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: in the IAR i sent you

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it takes like 12 hours to rez

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh now i got some chat lag

[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Feels like 2009 :D

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ah people logging in

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nebdon: btw, I might not get time now to put the assets in today

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ok no rush Justin

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe tomorrow

[11:19] Scribzy Daxter: hey aurieus lol

[11:19] Richardus Raymaker: longest meeting since a while

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: if you want i can pack everything up into a nice package for you

[11:19] Aureus Warden: Hey :)

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: if you havent already started

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that would be good

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I need to go in a minute

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ok i'll get that done today

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i'll email you a zip

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: thanks

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: hi aureus

[11:20] Aureus Warden: Hey Justin

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, see you folks later. Bye

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh wow didnt realize what time it was, man time flew today

[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Later, Justin. :)

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: later Justin, thanks for coming

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey waves

[11:21] Bubble Sort: is this a weekly meeting?

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes Bubble, same time every week

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: nah a bit overtime bubble

[11:22] Aureus Warden: Hey Lily

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: starts at .. uhmm

[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I have a Q, that hopefully hadn't already been asked. The LL Viewer license change to LGPL. Do we know if

that will have an effect on OpenSim's contribution policy?

[11:22] LilyAnn Kayor: Hey!

[11:22] Penny Lane: :-)

[11:22] Scribzy Daxter: hey lilly :)

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: nice turnout this week

[11:23] LilyAnn Kayor: region go ofline?

[11:23] Bubble Sort: you mean opensim contributing to LL or people contributing to opensim?

[11:23] Scribzy Daxter: yep

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: We dont know yet Marcus

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now no change

[11:23] LilyAnn Kayor: cool lol

[11:23] Penny Lane: Marcus: summarizing the previous discussion about that topic: they're examining the possibility

[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Thanks. :)

[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Throw the penny jar at the laywer. C'mon! :)

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: heh well one thing you guys need to understand

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: our Lawyers work pro-bono

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: we arent at the top of the list

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: they get to us when they get to us

[11:24] LilyAnn Kayor: i see me as a noobie again

[11:24] Penny Lane: Aim that penny jar at the head ;-)

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not much we can do or demand from them

[11:24] Bubble Sort: I wasn't abel to find anything on the LGPL version 2 on a casual google search... I found stuff on LGPL 1 and on

2.1 but not 2, so I'm not sure what that licence really means

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: beleive me we could not afford to pay for attorneys for even like 15 minutes of their time

[11:25] LilyAnn Kayor: yay ppl here

[11:25] LilyAnn Kayor: lol

[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: File a class action suit against... Oh, I don't know. Oracle. For some reason. That always gets lawyers rich.



[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: heh tahts the problem

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: only the lawyers make money

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: no one else does

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: even if you win you loose

[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Yup. But we just want the lawyers attention. Hehe

[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Anyhoo, I was simply curious. Would make life tons easier.

[11:26] Penny Lane: Almost nobody in FOSS can afford it, Neb. That's why open source mostly relies on safety in numbers and the power

of community reaction. But even then you can get sued if there's money in it ... witness Oracle.

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe, maybe not, there are upsides and downsides

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: SL is a huge companie

[11:27] Bubble Sort: what happened with oracle? I"m sorry, I got here late... anybody have a link to an article on it?

[11:27] Adam Frisby: Oracle sued Google over Java in Android

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: and just because they fired alot of folks doesnt mean they dont have dozens of blood thirsty lawyers on staff

[11:27] Adam Frisby: because they didnt license J2ME

[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Oracle took a huge dump all over the OpenSolaris community. Basically the end result was to send them

packing.

[11:28] Adam Frisby: despite Java being GPL'd -- there was still patents

[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Oh, that too. Oracle's been busy. lol

[11:28] Jacek Antonelli: Because Oracle wanted a slice of the Android pie. *cough*

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: never was, never will be

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: buying opensource software doesnt make you a opensource community

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Oracle is not an opensource company at heart

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya but at what cost Adam

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes you gotta know when to gnaw your arm off or wait for help

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:28] Bubble Sort: oh, ok, I do remember something like that about opensolaris... I never understood how that worked out like it did

[11:29] Penny Lane: Most open source analysis didn't even realize Sun's trick in GPL'ing only OpenJDK and not JME, and in making the

patent grant clause impossible to meet. Bloody crafty bastards.

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with oracles suit, is it appears like greed

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: something that doesnt make the opensource community jump up and down

[11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: It gets fiddly. The J2ME had patent promises, I guess, but not J2ME, whick Google's Dalvik resembles. So

Oracle pointed the pantent lawyers at em and fired.

[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Er, J2SE did, but not J2ME

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: I think even if Oracle prevails against google, they loose out big time

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no amount of profits will fix community trust

[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Even before Oracle made this move, Sun was beating their chests at Google over it. Oracle just decided to

actually follow through on legal action.

[11:31] Penny Lane: It'll probably die in court owing to Bilski ruling. But in the meantime (years), Oracle will have cast a shadow on

Android, which is exactly what they want.

[11:31] Adam Frisby: Bilski didnt invalidate software patents

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: I doub that honestly

[11:31] Bubble Sort: where do open source projects get their money from? I keep hearing about how emerald had some money from somewhere

and things like that... is it all donations from selfless philanthropists?

[11:31] Adam Frisby: Only some classes of business method patents

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: Android can switch gears

[11:31] Penny Lane: No no Adam, not that.

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: use mono

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: monotouch

[11:31] Adam Frisby: monotouch is expensive. :(

[11:32] Adam Frisby: It's like $2K/developer

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so is Java apparanrlyt

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: There's always MeeGo. Native code there. No Mono or Java patent worries.

[11:32] Penny Lane: Bilski invalidated patents based on abstract machines, and all the Oracle patents seem to be exactly that. Groklaw

has the details.

[11:32] Fast Explorer: Hello!

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya it wouldnt suprise me if nothing comes of it

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: Google is so big

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: you really cant beat google

[11:33] Adam Frisby: Groklaws legal analysis is right next to a burger king chef's.

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:33] Adam Frisby: It's all hyped in the manner of thinking the most optimistic situation for OSS

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: hmm did the not sayed that from microsoft to ? ok the are still big. but some bricks are falling

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: Google will settle

[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: And Rish Stallman's version of OSS at that.

[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: Rich*

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: it might cost them money, but they will earn it back fast

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: google is a big money printer

[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: I"m just wondering of they're gonna go all SCO and start suing handset makers that use Android.

[11:34] Penny Lane: Groklaw's analysis is done in the open, where everyone can show it to be consistent with the law or not. As all

legal analysis should be.

[11:34] Scribzy Daxter: lol

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Bubble, its usually from donations. Sometimes from companies who use an Open Source project in their

business and want to help back it

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya but with a suit like this you'll never know whats going on behind the scenes

[11:35] Adam Frisby: Well, the problem is she's not a lawyer -- most lawyers wont post public opinions because they dont want to get

sued themselves for posting advice that is misinterpreted or wrong.

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: until its already over

[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Retired paralegal, ain't she?

[11:35] Adam Frisby: No, intern paralegal

[11:35] Adam Frisby: or probably just paralegal now

[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Heh

[11:36] Penny Lane: She's a paralegal, the kind of expert employee that does the research for high-profile barristers. Probably know

more than the ones who appear in court.

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: probably doestn reassure me

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its like saying you probably will live

[11:37] Gau Hax: Okay good-bye all together, and a beautiful evening still, beautifully that was to be seen times here everything, bye

[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: She's a pundit. That makes her entertaining, but not an actual authority. ;)

[11:37] Penny Lane: But even if she had zero knowledge or training, the point is, it's open. Anyone can point out where her analysis

has no basis in any legal theory.

[11:37] Adam Frisby: yeah; Groklaws track record tends to be pretty horrible, especially with the more sensational stuff

[11:38] Adam Frisby: The whole In Re: Bilski coverage was "It'll destroy software patents! :D" until it wasnt.

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I think its time for me to be moving on. I have some things I should be working on.

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya and its not like software pattent cases have high success rate either

[11:38] Penny Lane: Cya Andrew

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Lets hope something destroys software patents. I'm not in favour of the.

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: them.

[11:38] Adam Frisby: No, they are rubbish to deal with

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Penny.

[11:38] Adam Frisby: But for the moment they are pretty well enshrined in the US law

[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: bye penny

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice seeing you, Adam. Think its the first time I've seen you.

[11:39] Adam Frisby: I hide

[11:39] Adam Frisby: >_>

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:39] Mojito Sorbet: Even Ubuntu has corporate backing

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:39] Adam Frisby: Plus it's 4:00AM when these meetings start

[11:39] Marcus Llewellyn: He doesn't blog anymore either. He hates us. *sniff*

[11:39] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) c313126: 2010-08-06 00:00:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Adam, yeah. That doesn't help.

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: most linux derivatives have corporate backing

[11:39] Adam Frisby: Too late for me to stay up for them, and damned if you think i'm getting out of bed at 4

[11:39] Penny Lane: I wasn't leaving, Andrew was. English farewells are ambiguous :P

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: the serious ones anyway

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:39] Mojito Sorbet: Are software patents a nono in Europe, or have they just said they will examine on a case by case basic?

[11:39] Adam Frisby: Software patents are mostly a no in Europe

[11:40] Adam Frisby: I think there's some exceptions (the UK?)

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Europe is a bit more sensible about things like that

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya especially if it means putting people out of work

[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Hrm. Does ACTA attempt to export software patents?

[11:40] Penny Lane: Mojito: They're officially not allowed, but in practice a few occasionally trickle through. In general though,

they're a No.

[11:40] Mojito Sorbet: The UK is always exception. "We are part of Europe, except when we don't feel like it." haha

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: they tend to rule in favor of whos providing the jobs

[11:41] Penny Lane: Yeah, UK is a mess. (I'm in UK)

[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: I may get back to asking about getting my grid server going via IRC, nebadon. Or I can just give up and

move my local sandbox of OS to 0.7 and see if I have any better luck running a grid using 0.7 locally

[11:41] Mojito Sorbet: Leo Laporte refered to the US legal system as th "lowest common denominator" in this area.

[11:41] Bubble Sort: careful, penny, I hear over there you can get sued for libel for saying something like that ;)

[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: I have one more dev related question. (Really sorry I missed the meat of the meeting!) I've seen a kabillion

SOP commits lately. How's that work going?

[11:41] Adam Frisby: Oh, started going in earlier today

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: no problem Marcus

[11:42] Adam Frisby: it's my project for the next 2 weeks to get thst sorted out

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: as long as people here go for it

[11:42] Adam Frisby: Figure it s houldnt take long now I've got the room & time to work

[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Awesomeness. :) Thanks. :))

[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: So soprefactor is headed for main relatively soonish, then?

[11:43] Adam Frisby: Hrrm, dunno about main

[11:43] Adam Frisby: I'd like to be there, but I might get frowny faces if I push that in too quickly

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe. okie dokie

[11:43] Adam Frisby: the non-backwards compat bits are going to be massive breaking changes

[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: That mostly breaking modules and schtuff?

[11:43] Penny Lane: Bubble: Not really, we don't have the US's "Anyone can sue anyone for anything" problem. Instead, we have a sort of

mild police state, which is interacting badly with the nanny state that we always had.

[11:43] Adam Frisby: Marcus: yeah

[11:43] Adam Frisby: It'll break anything that touches sceneobjects

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: will there be asset server changes Adam?

[11:43] Adam Frisby: No Neb

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: good

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: id hate to think about multipe asset server migrations in the same year

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:44] Adam Frisby: Yeah, no thanks.

[11:44] Adam Frisby: We should move to cassandra though.

[11:44] Adam Frisby: I've been implementing cassandra at my new day job; it's awesome.

[11:44] Adam Frisby: if a little scary at first

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: not sure what it is?

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: database?

[11:44] Adam Frisby: Yeah

[11:44] Adam Frisby: Massive scalable database

[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Hey, I say break away. Honestly. Yes, it's a pain, yes you might lose data. But it *now*, before we get to

close to 1.0.

[11:44] Adam Frisby: Facebook use itm Twitter too

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: interesting

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: danger grid is running on MariaDB at the moment

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ive been using MariaDB

[11:45] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: some of my sims here on osgrid are running it

[11:45] Adam Frisby: That's another dynamo variant isnt it?

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no its MySQL

[11:45] Adam Frisby: Oh wait no

[11:45] Adam Frisby: yeah Mysql's fork

[11:45] Quilzie Xemax: Yes it works quite nicely.

[11:45] Adam Frisby: I was thinking MongoDB

[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: ok. that where my viewer

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya SimianGrid is embracing mongo

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: its got some new engines

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but the lack of tools has kept me from trying it

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: how's mariadb going ?

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: works great Richardus

[11:46] Adam Frisby: Cassandra has one awesome feature. Sorting.

[11:46] UUID Speaker: danny wintjens: 39345723-da3a-1519-09a2-1388556174e4

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.danger.osgrid.org

[11:46] Adam Frisby: Lets you fetch sorted data via query -- sounds silly, but on a key value store, it's tremendously powerful

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: if you guys havent seen it

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you can make an account if you want