Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-29

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello :) [11:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hell Neb [11:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Mike [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi mike [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi neb [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: so how is everyone doing [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: anything interesting going on? [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not really i think [11:08] vegaslon plutonian: keeping a eye on second life's project bento [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: any idea how the TPV groups will handle it? [11:09] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: keeping an eye on all the new commits and issues [11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi vega [11:09] vegaslon plutonian: they will take it in from what I saw at the TPV meeting [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: pff bento. i try to rig a normal avatar. but i select SL-Opensim with export. still the righ is missing when you upload [11:10] vegaslon plutonian: cool vl veiwer has it implemented right now [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that name. eeewww [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i guess step one is someone will need to update libomv [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: to have required support [11:11] vegaslon plutonian: currently firestorm will out right crash if it comes into contact with one of the avatars though [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:11] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Andrew [11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup [11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: what about sing based viewers? [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... I'm still not used to TPing right in to the seating area. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: im guessing this is limtied to SL Beta grid at the moment?\ [11:12] vegaslon plutonian: think they are waiting for the bones to be finalized [11:12] vegaslon plutonian: ya [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing based viewers for what? The new bones? [11:12] vegaslon plutonian: think the most opensim has to do to make it work is add the extra attachment points [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea apparantly firestorm crashes if you come near a new avatar [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i was wondering how singularity based viwers faired [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: bad that it crashes [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: really bad [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be hard for me to tell. Sing will crash on me after a short while. [11:13] vegaslon plutonian: ya they are concerned ask linden labs out right if they were going to have it ready before the end of feb [11:13] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hopefully that mean the FS team will update their viewer quickly. Crashes are never a good thing. [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not worried about FS [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: they are usually leading the charge [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: FS is pretty good about updating the viewer. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its the other viewers that concern me [11:14] vegaslon plutonian: they want to release a new veiwer before that happens, apearently firestorm crashes becouse they did not implement one of second lifes patches, kind of skipped over it [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: if Singularity doesnt come together, could spell the end of support for that viewer [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we can pretty much write of Replex at this point I think [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua probably will be fine [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Other viewers that are basing their code on SL viewer code will get the changes when LL provides updated viewer code. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is the only one that worries me [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and since OnLook is based on it [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: kind of bad if that project dissolves [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: as much as new bones are good [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hmm, why did the base onlook on old V1 viewer ? that's terrible [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i fear this is going to be really really bad for opensim [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of viewer fragmentation [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: because the only people interested at the time were singularity devs [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: FS is focused on SL [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: not opensim [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know too as of today, they have no one supporting opensim really [11:16] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: true !!! [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit was saying he was speaking with Jessica last week or two [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and she said none of the current devs use opensim [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: so they are struggeling to keep it up for us [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: but they want to [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: well she does at least [11:18] Robert Adams: FS is willing... they just need a developer who wants to do it [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sinulrity, not sure if the strugle to too kepe up. [11:19] Mike D: Hey. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: sounds like we have some time though, if SL hasnt locked down how it works yet [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: we cant really even consider anything until they do [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: or we run the risk of repeating the mesh implementation mistakes [11:19] vegaslon plutonian: ya there is alot of back and forth about how secondlife wants to lock down animations [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: where we rushed to implement mesh support, then LL changed the format [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: and we had 100s of broken assets after that [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: if not 1000s [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: had to redo everything [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so best to be patient there for sure [11:20] vegaslon plutonian: ya best to wait for the RC Veiwer [11:20] Robert Adams: still have broken assets... BulletSim creates it's own physical represenation of meshes but that conflicts with the way things are done these days.... but then there are the old assets [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: glad someone is following the dev work there though [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: cause i sure dont have the time too :) [11:22] vegaslon plutonian: as much as is happening, all of Linden Labs is on on holiday this week [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still the blossemtreeflexi error following mee. and there's no tree rezzed. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: richardus, that likely wont ever get fixed hehe [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: some assets are just broken forever [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: unless opensim is not smart enough and count boxed items as running script too. [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh no it's not a sacript [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unless you really dig into the asset xml and fix it [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, if you delete the asset from the sim, you would expoect the error dissapear. nope [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tree's are gone. error i still see [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its something else then [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: or you missed one [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: also [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: area search not find anything. so if it's soemwhere it's good hidden [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it very well could be a completeyl broken asset missing its parent [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen this occur [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: failed unlink [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: where all the child prims stay but the root is deleted [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its impossible to delete these inworld anymore [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: and they do spew errors [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: you have to DB dive to clean [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: they also are inviisble inworld [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: so it seems like you actually deleted them [11:25] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: time for a Question ? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: thats what these meetings are for [11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: again, Probl. cause red errors when i call preferences or Profiles [11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: 0.8 and 0.9 [11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: wait [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its a difference in profile modules maybe [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: you mean when you hypergrid to OSGrid? [11:27] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i have a NC with opensim-log [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: or is it occuring within just the confines of your own grid? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: german :) [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: let me translate 1 sec [11:27] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: hmm odd message [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: The Index was out of range. He must not be negative and less than the listing. [11:28] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: may be i made a mistake in my config [11:28] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i dont know [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: avatar properties [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure that is profile [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ubit would know this [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: this sounds possible appearance problem [11:29] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes but Profile is corect [11:29] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no wrong data in Profile or in Grouüs [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see it mentions profile very odd [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: does this happen when you teleport from region to region in your own grid? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: or is it on login? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: or only when you view profile it happens? [11:30] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: only when i am on my Grid [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: has to be some kind of config issue then [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i use the core profiles myself [11:31] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: ok, thx neb [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: though [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i see you are on windows [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: which i do not test [11:31] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so there is always the slight possibility its a .net incompatibility [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but i think if it was this problem would be more wide spread [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: more people mentioning it [11:31] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev       37cb24d: 2015-12-24 01:21:15 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to pastebin your configs we can have a look [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: an opensim.ini and gridcommon.ini [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: just make sure you blank out db names and passwords [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: would need to see robust config too i guess [11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i can show you, but not now [11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: #- OK ! -# [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sure whenever you have time [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: nebadon2025@gmail.com [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: is my email [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: always reach me there as well [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: or on IRC [11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: can i add you to my FL ? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thank you [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: im assuming the server locale is en_us [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: even though the language is german [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure how windows handles that [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but in linux using de as your locale [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: will break opensim [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: because it swaps, and. [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back and pretty much caught up. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: you would be having more trouble i suspect if that was the case [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but something to keep in mind [11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: you know, everything else is running verry good [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Wolf, Are you using the addon or core profile code? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right if it was the locale thing [11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no outher Probl. at all [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like teleporting would be broken [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: prim locations would get wierd [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: 100.00 becomes 10,000 [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: etc.. [11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no addon [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I haven't used the core profile code. [11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i have diva wifi [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: questions [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: since you are using wifi [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: on the simulators are you using standard mysql.dll or the diva one? [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I still can't get 0.8.0PF running again in standalone on my machine. [11:36] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i take the OSgrid dowload then put in my config...ready [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ok your not dropping in diva dlls into the simulator code too are you? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and using her mysql? [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you dont want to do that in grid mode [11:37] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes MySQL and i use diva.DLL [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: only robust [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: try using stock mysql on simulators [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and diva on robust only [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: see if that helps [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you should not use her mysql dll on sims anymore [11:37] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: oh good, i will try this [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: in grid mode [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: in the past it was required [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but no longer is [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: in the past it was needed to display user stats on the wifi website [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: she has since done away with that [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: to keep better core compatibility for simulators [11:38] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: ah [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator will not need any of her dlls infact [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you can totallly eliminate that step for your update routines [11:39] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes i try it [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: no idea if it will help, but worth a shot [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: rule out anything unnecessary [11:40] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: lot of work, but i'll do untill it works clean [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: cool and ya if that doesnt work, we can take a look at your ini files [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: make sure things look correct [11:42] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thats good way, may be i contact you next Year begins [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: whenever you have some time [11:43] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thanks Nebadon [11:44] Samuel Greenway: speaking of viewers, I believe Kokua is still being actively worked on [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone on IRC was asking about Rest support. The default INI indicates it is notworking. Any ideas what is wrong with it? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: yes it appears it was [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: or is I mean [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua is still active somewhat [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i think its trying to keep up with the SL updates anyway [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: which may or may not be a good thing for opensim [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: cause if they do pickup the new SL code [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it may mean support for opensim is lost for a while [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we just don't know yet how that code will effect us [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: fingers crossed its not too bad [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Andrew [11:46] vegaslon plutonian: suspect it will be alot like fitted mesh which did the same thing, added more bones [11:46] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Uhmm, neb. my fingers dont have bones :) [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie or Ubit might know [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect Avination uses the REST console [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol Richardus [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ok. I'm not really sure what the Rest stuff is all about. Some sort of web technology, afaik. I don't know how to test it. [11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: already stopped using Remote admin. it stopped working for me. on windows [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its a remote console [11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lucky, not need it. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: basically allows you to attach a remote console [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: to control a simulator [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: or other software to automate control [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: How is that different from the remote admin feature? [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think it is totally [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost sounds like two different ways to do the same thing. [11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Resy oi never got working [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats exactly what it is [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im not as familiar i tried out radmin back in the day [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: there used to be an app you could run [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, an ini file says it doesn't work. [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: to have all of your opensim consoles in 1 window [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: but it wasnt so great [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: SSH and gnu screen was far superior [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: in my opinion [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i tried it years ago with rest [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only used remote admin for starting oar backup [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the radmin app didnt have history [11:50] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Under Linux I just inject commands into the console using tmux. I prefer that to the remote admin for most things and makes script automation easier also. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so you couldnt like arrow up commands [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you had to type everything every time [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so i couldnt use it [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: was more work, not less [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I've used remote admin to do oar backups. [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, keep the commands in a separate file and C&P them when needed. :) [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i think radmin was heavily reliant on REST though [11:51] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: bye Friends, thanks for infos, see you.... [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: see you Wolf, [11:51] Lani Global: for those wondering why some users get group invitations and not others... it's been tracked to Firestorm viewer fails with the OSSL function osInviteToGroup (key user) . other viewers seem to work fine with that function. [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Wolf. [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll look at radmin out of curiousity [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye wolf [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wedll that would explain why it's broken [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: mabye [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ah good to know Lani [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i assume they know about it now? [11:52] Lani Global: not yet, it appears [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: well best thing to do is file a bug report with them [11:53] Lani Global: we just tracked it positively the past month [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: dont even bother trying to contact them any other way first [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: until you do that [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: because that will be their first response [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i gaurantee it [11:53] Lani Global: yep [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi lani. not sure if it's broken. [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ossl functions operate in OS. There should be nothing viewer specific about them. [11:53] Lani Global: that's what i thought, too, andrew... but not the case with this issue. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: groups is wierd [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: SL has no real group LSL support [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: really bizarre. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: OSSL is major hack [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: expect the unexpected [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. I would have thought it was just a different way to do a lot of standard things. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: alot of the OSSL stuff is very hackish :) [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: not in a bad way [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: just becasue we are abusing protocols [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: in non standard ways [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: stuff that is big nono in LSL [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is the viewer support has to do with sending update signals [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought it would have the same protocols as already existed for doing things. I haven't dug in to the implemenation details. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: to tell the viewer these things are happening [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: might be some special viewer cap for that [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: a few times viewer caps are added for OSSL [11:56] Lani Global: osInviteToGroup OSSL function is a cool feature for use with greeters and touch posters [11:56] Samuel Greenway: maybe a V1 vs V2/3 issue [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think groups changed much [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: between v1/2/3 [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its more likely we are doing nonstandard things that FS didnt pick up [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: or intentionally ignored [11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: does lsl not have a group inviter ? sofar i know it does [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: it does not [11:57] Lani Global: perhaps intentionally ignoring the source if not an avi [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: there were ways to bring up the group [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but you had to manually join [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: unless they changed that [11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ah [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but i doubt it [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: since that could really be abused [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: you could send the entire grid a invite [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Most group inviters just spit out a URL that people click on to open the dialog box for the group so they can hit the Join buton [11:58] Lani Global: the URL method was or is the only way in SL [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats right [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: it launched the web group link [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Still is, unless you use a bot. [11:58] Lani Global: it was cumbersone [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and the viewer would autohandle the response [11:58] Lani Global: yes, relay the user key to a bot [11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what is that for annoying beep and some airplane type sound ? [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I have the code for a group join bot lying around somewhere. [11:59] Lani Global: would have to be a viewer client bot in sl [11:59] Lani Global: perhaps an osNPC could be set up to do it [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I wanted to work on an event reminder module but I got hung up trying to figure out why I can see event markers on a map but can't search for event details. [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: well if the OSSL worked correctly with FS [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: that should be plenty [12:00] Lani Global: yes, agreed [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: you could compliment that with NPC sure [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but it should still use OSSL [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to compare 080 and 082 event behaviour to try and track down the problem but I can't as I can't get 080 running on my machine any more. [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: best to file that report soon and if you can let jessica know [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but do not push her to hard about it [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: just tell her once and see what happens [12:01] Lani Global: yeah [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we need to get a bit more cozy with them [12:02] Lani Global: i've stopped using Firestorm due to all the things that fail in opensim [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: yea i only use it for Machinima [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and I build with Replex [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it has far superior shadows [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and lighting [12:03] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I run FS for most things, although it can be quirky with some mesh imports [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yes do not use it for mesh imports [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i will upload everything in FULL LOD [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: on every level [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what you choose or tell it [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: huh. och [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: use Replex or Singularity to upload [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its way better [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: one reason FS feels faster uploading [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: is because it skips all that processing [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: not because its faster [12:04] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to look at that. I haven't seen that noted anywhere before this [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: its possible newer versions they changed that [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but I dont think so [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: like i said their focus has been SL [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: not opensim [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it used to warn you [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: on first launch [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: that mesh uploads are not good for opensim [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: either on first launch or first upload [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i think it was first upload [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: it would give a warning about opensim [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Radegast does the same thing [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: uploads in full LOD always [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: which is good for stuff like terrain [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: or stuff you need 100% precision collide [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: usually more organic shapes [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sharp geometric lines usually lower LOD is fine for collisions [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but for big buildings and stuff that is purely visual [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: it is very wasteful of resources [12:07] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I create separate optimized meshes for physics. Have been testing some recent changes with Ubit around that also for ubODE [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: that probably works ok in FS [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its just the visual stuff [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: only time in FS that would effect physics is if you didnt specify a seperate collada file [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: it would be max [12:08] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to look at that for sure. Not good if everything is high no matter what you tell it for LODs. [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually say physics from file and point to the original dae file. [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes not good at all [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: not always [12:09] Lani Global: Ubit is quite active recently with development. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew yes i do that for stuff like terrain [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes Ubit is a machine :) [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: he makes me look very lazy [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: he makes most of us look lazy. :) [12:09] Lani Global: amazing what he is doing. [12:09] Lani Global: The Force is strong with that one. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes he has been working on this stuff for years [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: on Avination grid [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: people dont realize this merge has taken literally years to complete [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we have been talking about it for a long time now [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: and things were being done sort of behind the scenes for a long time [12:10] Lani Global: so, this is The Year of The Merge. [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i spoke about it on a few occasions [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: but mostly we didnt want to get anyone to excited because honestly we werent sure it could happen [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: several attemps were made and abandoned becuase it was not easy [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie, Misterblue, Diva and Ubit [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit finally was the one who got it over the line [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: it took way longer than expected [12:12] Lani Global: we are much appreciative of that work. [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: Justin and I didnt make it easy [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: with our breakneck OSCC patchathons [12:12] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: code is like that ... the devil is in the details [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: and really that is kind of why this all happened once justin left [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: the window opened :) [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: it was good timing all around, even though it sucks to loose someone like Justin [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: there was actually a lot of benefit to it as well [12:14] Lani Global: what is needed to call it 1.0 ? [12:14] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Now we just need to find all the bugs and regressions so they can be fixed during the process [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: there is no real road plan for 1.0 [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: 1.0 doesnt mean much either [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt mean its complete [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: or not beta anymore [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly just a milestone [12:15] Samuel Greenway: Opensim Server and Opensim Viewer = 1.0 :) heh [12:15] Lani Global: yeah, well, most see sub-1 as not ready for public [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: yea until we really have our own viewer [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: its kind of hard to feel complete [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what the version is [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: but i sort of hope opensim is never complete :) [12:15] Lani Global: so, we just need a browser viewer instead [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that would be super boring [12:16] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Is any software project truly "complete"? [12:16] Uwe.Furse @hypergrid.org:8002: sure, the future is webgl .... [12:16] Lani Global: look how long it has taken microsoft to complete windows. [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: im not convinced of that [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: that webgl is the future of opensim [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: webgl is crazy weak [12:16] Samuel Greenway: I think Melanie mentioned working some sort of viewer during OSCC [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, they haven't completed Windows. They keep changing it. [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are also very weak [12:17] Lani Global: yes, andrew, my point [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: in threading and memory management [12:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It's far from complete. you mabye can think complete if you not need any LL part [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: you can not expcect firestorm or Chrome to be anywhere near as optimzied [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: as a high end gaming engine platform [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are quite terrible [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: OS can never be "complete" as people will differ as to what features are needed for them to consider it complete. [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: opensim requires 1000s of connections [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are not good at this [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps in time things will get a lot better [12:18] Lani Global: well, perhaps by the time we have a high end gaming viewer.... gaming boxes will be only used by a few people [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: but WebGL as of today [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its not good enough [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: it would be a highly degraded experience [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: like going back to 2001 [12:18] Lani Global: these days, "its all about the mobile" [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: I think opensim really needs is a modern game engine platform [12:19] Lani Global: a lot of us have gaming laptops and high power desktop gaming mochines.... but most of the public is running on pads [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: webgl is basically opengl 2.0 ES [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: about what your current cell phone can do [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not pretty [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: things like windlight and particles and lots of animated objects [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: very hard to do [12:21] Lani Global: Cloud = Mainframe/dumb terminal [12:21] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: It would be nice to be able to "travel" to/from an OpenSim region to one done in Unity, along with chat/IM [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: unity is an option [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: but the web browser again [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: is the weak link [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: controls are weak [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: you are basically limited to AWSD [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: and arrow keys [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: most of the F1-F12 keys are preassigned to web browsers [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like page up and down [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: doing stuff in web browser honestly [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: it sucks [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: really really bad [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: people say they want it [12:22] Lani Global: at least, a native way to deliver a basic region experience to a mobile device would be cool. without downloading a viewer that takes all the memory in a mobile [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but when they get it will not enjoy it [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: not even a little [12:23] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: web browser is designed for a very different purpose [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: the web browser could be a good way to introduce new people [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and transition them to a proper viewer [12:23] Lani Global: perhaps the only way would be streaming it [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but I think expecting a full on WebGL replacement [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can stop holding your breath now [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its not going to happen [12:24] Lucy Afarensis: whew ! [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: haha [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i hate to be negative about it [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i suppose time will tell though [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i would like to see a limited capability webgl portal for opensim though [12:24] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: now we know the GL in WebGL stands for Good Luck [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: people just need to realize it wont be a full replacement [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: we need to temper expectations [12:25] Lani Global: honestly, i believe, if we do not accept the mobile platform, we will be relegated to the trash heap of history [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: well that is one reason unity is nice [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: any app is automatically cross platform mostly [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: with some minor adjustments [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: its not a huge rewrite for every platform [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: check this out [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: video link [12:26] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002 looks for a pair of 3D glasses [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2APzqeMbA [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: this was originally a WebGL demo i did [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: with unity3d [12:26] Samuel Greenway: You do have Lumiya for mobile and opensim but similar to radegast in quality [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just got myself a Nvidia Shield K1 [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i spent about an hour or so converting my webgl demo to a native android app [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: .apk file [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: that video above is a recording of it [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: its completely standalone no opensim [12:27] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That's actually quite good [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: but you can see its not that difficult to transition from the webgl to native apps [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: yes the webgl demo was not as nice looking [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: but close [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: shadows were pretty terrible in webgl [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: very blocky [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: still Unity has potential [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: its a great engine and its free'ish [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: im not 100% sure its our best choice yet [12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: weell, i go. see you next year [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: but its a choice [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: ok Richardus [12:29] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: It is free until you start making money with it, or need the debugging tools [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I should get going too. [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: have great new years [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: be safe [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: :) [12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you too [12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy new year, everyone. [12:29] Nebadon Izumi: see you Andrew [12:29] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Have a great day everyone, take care [12:30] Nebadon Izumi: k ya see you all next week or perhaps on IRC [12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I should get back to trying to get some work done [12:30] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera you have log and will post? [12:30] Lucy Afarensis: Happy New Year all [12:30] Nebadon Izumi: you too lucy [12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Happy New Year to you all [12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002 waves and departs