Chat log from the meeting on 2012-05-15

[10:03] VivK Lowlag: still the same [10:03] Sarah Kline: ok now [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: looks ok on my screen [10:03] Sarah Kline: just twitchy leg [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: though your foot is in the touch a little [10:03] Sarah Kline: ) [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: you need to move forward sarah :) [10:03] Sarah Kline: heheh the meeting can carry on [10:03] Sarah Kline: lol [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:03] VivK Lowlag: :) [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello nebadon, folks [10:04] Sarah Kline: hi Justin [10:04] BlueWall Slade: hi [10:04] VivK Lowlag: hi Justin [10:04] Richardus Raymaker: am btw curious. where thinking. [10:04] Richardus Raymaker: is ther emaby some possibility that opensim flood network buffers ? with the result of lsow http requests or starnge system loads ? [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: no many have shown up today [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: not many* [10:05] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. again bad typed [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i just put reminders in IRC window [10:05] Richardus Raymaker: can opensim maby flood in some wat network buffers ? [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: I don't understand [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: and the result is that you get slow http requests or other strange effects [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: on my amd x6, i did get high load times. its combination opensim + amd pheniom x6 + opensim. [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: on windows it runs fine. [10:07] Ubit Umarov: ( hi ) [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: but akira still have strange problems to, with slow http requests. [10:07] BlueWall Slade: hello [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hi ubit [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: the slow http requests are likely caused by the viewers [10:07] VivK Lowlag: didn't Akira move to amazon servers? [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: is there some possibility that opensim sends more data then can be processed or send [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: not in all cases but a lot of the time its the viewer [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: last thing i heared. same result [10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: sned more data wehere? [10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: urf [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: viewer. its jungle out there with viewers [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: ok.. i only saw on windows a slow http request when the region whre starting. [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: it is likely some kind of network issue though, I know one way to trigger it is to really lag the viewer machine and it can cause those slow http requests [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: basically the viewer doesnt respond to the simulator fast enough [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: so it gets grumpy [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: it may be resending packets yes [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: will 1 person flood out networking [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: that seems very unlikely [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: maby thats what i mean with buffer overflow. [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: unless you have very very slow internet on the server [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: it seems unlikely Richardus [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: you throw more in the bucket then it can flow out of the bucket [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: ok. just some dieas [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: ideas [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i really doubt 1 person just logging in could do that [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: if that was the case [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: we all wouldnt be sitting here in Wright Plaza [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: this region sends sooo much data [10:11] BlueWall Slade: the path between the viewer and the simulator may have too many buffers [10:11] BlueWall Slade: think buffers sitting in routers/swotches, etc. [10:11] BlueWall Slade: they can fill up, and delay the packets [10:11] Richardus Raymaker: well i know that since i have enabled QoS and bandwidth limit on my opensim cable connection i dont see holes etc. very very rare [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it all depends massively on ontext as to the cause of 'slow messages' [10:11] BlueWall Slade: instead of tossing them like they should [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: i have not enough traffic to generate slow messgae i think [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: the slow message Richardus [10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: it's unlikely to be buffer issues, there's a vast nuber of possible causes [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: just means the simulator isnt hearing back from the viewer fast enough [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt mean the simulator is the cause [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: its likely not the cause [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: ok, but the querry start to fill up that way [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia was able to generate massive amounts of those message [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: by having the CPU max out on her viewer machine [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: so the viewer lags basically [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: cant respond fast enough [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: simulator complains [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: cpu.. lol curious when that start todo something [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I thikn that's probably fairly rare thuogh [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: its barly go above a few % [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: not really [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: try running V3 on an older machine [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: it lags like nuts [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: no, if you're runnin g aviewer richardus, you will have significant cpu usage on the viewer machine [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: viewer is other story offcorse [10:14] Richardus Raymaker: yes. [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: I have a Core 2 Quad machine 2.83ghz [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: with 8gb ram [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: and Nvidia 250GTS [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: my cpu gets near 80-90% [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: when i am in certain regions [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: now if that machine is lagging that bad [10:14] Richardus Raymaker: right now stuck on 36% [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: i cant even imagine what a dual core older generation machine happens [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately the LL viewer is not very well optimized [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: it tends to consume as much of your machine as it can [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: v3 viewers anyway [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: you can ratchet that back with settings [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: but just enable shadows [10:15] Richardus Raymaker: that explains maby why it runs betetr to :O [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: and watch your machines performance plummet [10:15] Richardus Raymaker: ok i use singularity for now [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: you basically have to have the latest and greatest hardware [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: no shadows, its killing framerate [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: to even get semi descent performance on v3 with all the bells and whistles [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: this new computer Diva bought me is very very powerful [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: SL3 shadows work perfect [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: and yet still I only get like 15fps here [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: diva bought you a computer? [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: did you already have the new parts ? [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: she bought me a bunch of new parts [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: pff, lucky you :) [10:17] BlueWall Slade: lol [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: Core i5 3550 3.3ghz [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: 16gb ram [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: Asus motherboard [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: 128GB SSD [10:17] Hiro Protagonist: I had to read that twice to be sure thats actually what you said Justin :p [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: 3tb SATA III drive [10:17] Richardus Raymaker: thats faster then mine. and your card is better to [10:17] Richardus Raymaker: but i dont run ultra and no shadow right now [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: Nvidia 560ti GTX 1280mb 448 cores [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya right now I am in Ultra [10:17] Richardus Raymaker: very rare card ^^ :) [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: with Shadows and Ambient Occlusion [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: 19280x1080 [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: if i do that my framerate is going to low [10:18] Sarah Kline: it was very good [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: getting about 16fps [10:18] Sarah Kline: never seen opensim look so good [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: though [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: lol that would give some dekstop space 19280 :) [10:18] VivK LowlagVivK Lowlag shakes at the jealosy of that pc [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: it actually feels faster than 16 [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: is this so you can make videos? [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: I did a test run last night [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: check this out [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: i can make soon better video's to. more on my list [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: http://youtu.be/hLFmaJcCSXs?hd=1 [10:19] BlueWall Slade: how did you hide the mouse cursor in that? [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: Fraps has option [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: to high house cursor [10:19] BlueWall Slade: ohhh, nice [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: thats good question.. need to get that off [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: plus I am using a 3dconnexion Space Navigator i bought many years ago [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: ordered one last night [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: i got it when they 1st came out got a really good deal [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: was 50$ [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: now they are about 100$ [10:20] Richardus Raymaker: fraps seems to ignore my cursor neb. or i missed that optin [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya its an option [10:20] Richardus Raymaker: tell ? [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: on the Movies tab [10:20] Hiro Protagonist: so what's new in opensim this week [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: Hide mouse cursor in video [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: think with videocard i ait a bit longer until the 680 is dropping [10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know. I made the mistake of reading the last 800 pages of REAMDE last night [10:21] Hiro Protagonist: 800 pages of README? [10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: so my mental capcities are much reduced today [10:21] BlueWall Slade: 0.0 [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie yesterday commited something from Avination that improves collisions yesterday [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: I have not had a chance to get updated yet [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: but that looked interesting [10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: REAMDE, by an author your avatar should be vamiliar with [10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: well, she didn't exactly put any detail in the commit log [10:22] Hiro Protagonist: Oh heh [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think its anything major [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: but its always good to see fixes in that area [10:22] Hiro Protagonist: For some reason I thought you mean that opensim's README was now over 800 pages [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon. that option is enabled, and it dont disable the cursor. still see it in mouselook [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: it may fix that issue with walking up ramps [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: i need to test it, just havent tried yet [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: need to turn it off in viewer. the crosshair [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: There is a reason to think so? [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: well the ramp thing was not an issue in Avination [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: well, from my look at the commit I doubt it will have any effect but it doesn't hurt to try [10:24] Richardus Raymaker: hi taarna [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I really don't know I actually meant to ask Melanie last night [10:24] Taarna Welles: *whispers Hello [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: hello Taarna [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: hello taarna [10:24] BlueWall Slade: hi [10:24] Hiro ProtagonistHiro Protagonist waves [10:24] Taarna Welles: I have a question [10:24] BlueWall Slade: /o [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: bluewall, the crosshair is under advanced [10:25] Taarna Welles: Have anyone of you joined Spoton3D? [10:25] Hiro Protagonist: I used t owork there [10:25] BlueWall Slade: nope [10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: no [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: maby heared that name once. thats all [10:25] Hiro Protagonist: but it was a long time ago [10:25] Dahlia Trimble: hi [10:25] Hiro Protagonist: over three years ago [10:25] Sarah Kline: I looked once [10:25] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: hmm its webbased ? [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [10:26] Taarna Welles: They use a nice concept and in short terms it's OS or SL with a viewer in the browser [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: as fara s I know, it uses activeX to effectively launch the executable from within the browser [10:26] Taarna Welles: it's very interesting and I hope in future OSG can do the same [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya they were not the 1st people to do that [10:27] BlueWall Slade: just needs a viewer [10:27] Dahlia Trimble: I wrote a browser viewer around 3 years ago [10:27] BlueWall Slade: lol, did they file a patent on it? [10:27] Hiro Protagonist: it's incompatible with linux if that's how they're doing it [10:27] Taarna Welles: Could be but join one day and have a look to see what kind of features they have. It might be interesting for this grid too [10:27] Sarah Kline: oh they were filing patents on stuffs ) [10:27] BlueWall Slade: yes [10:27] Hiro Protagonist: yeah they are a patent happy bunch [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya SpotOn3D is not very popular with this crowd [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:28] Hiro Protagonist: they totally dont get open source [10:28] BlueWall Slade: I stay far away from patent peeps [10:28] Taarna Welles: lol I know [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: brrr. patents [10:28] Hiro Protagonist: one of the reasons I didnt work there long [10:28] Hiro Protagonist: one of the many reasons [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: I heard they were changing their name to something else because of all the bad press they get [10:28] Hiro Protagonist: frankly, they are a bunch of asshats [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: hi allen [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: lol [10:28] Dahlia Trimble: more like 3 1/2 years ago :/ [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: lol hiro. nice naming.. [10:29] Allen Kerensky: howdy OSgridz! [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: hello Allen [10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: hi allen [10:29] Hiro Protagonist: heya Allen [10:29] Dahlia Trimble: hi [10:29] Sarah Kline: hi [10:29] BlueWall Slade: Hi Allen [10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm rather surprised they're still going - I haven't heard anything about them for a long time [10:29] Taarna Welles: It's more the concetp I like and particular things as patents [10:29] sim core: :-) [10:29] Taarna Welles: and not the patents [10:29] BlueWall Slade: they're waiting for everyone else to make $$ so they can sue them, lol [10:29] Hiro Protagonist: well, not everyone there, just the people that run the place [10:29] Sarah Kline: ) [10:29] Hiro Protagonist: I shouldn't be so general when I say such things [10:30] Dahlia Trimble: it would be nice if I could use the web viewer I wrote long before theirs without being sued, that was a lot of worl [10:30] Allen Kerensky: step 1: check depth of target's pockets. Step 2: fire lawsuits. Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit, at expense of any reputation or respect [10:30] Hiro Protagonist: most of the people that worked with me there were exceptionally talented and capable people [10:30] Dahlia Trimble: *work [10:30] Taarna Welles: What I like is the viewer in a browser. For a lot of people it's much easier and also they have almost all features but with the old fashioned viewer layout [10:30] BlueWall Slade: Dahlia, you couls uses it couldn't you? [10:31] BlueWall Slade: lol, typoneese [10:31] Sarah Kline: Its a lot easier because its dumbed down [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: Did they even get a patent? Those things cost a fair bit of money I understand [10:31] Dahlia Trimble: Im sure I could use it but not sure I would not be sued if I did [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: I dunno to me jamming the LL viewer into a Web browser window is sloppy [10:31] Taarna Welles: I don't know [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: and probably fairly easy to work around if it's just an executable shoved in an activex control [10:31] Hiro Protagonist: yeah it is [10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: to be honest, I think it was all a load of bs [10:31] BlueWall Slade: web gl will do it right one day [10:31] Richardus Raymaker: seperate program works much nicer [10:31] Taarna Welles: it's not sloppy at all [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: I mean don't get me wrong I understand the concept is great and much desired functionality [10:32] Hiro Protagonist: technically speaking, it's a sloppy hack [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: I dunno, jamming Windows apps into iframes on a web browser is sloppy to me [10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I think darren and lbsa did that back in the day [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: not so much what they are doing, i would love to see exploring a world in a web browser window [10:32] Allen Kerensky: nonworkable hack for those of us not living the windows life too [10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: when they were running tribal [10:32] Taarna Welles: But then again, I'm a user so you can fill in the gabs I don't have no knowledge off [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: I just think the way spoton3d is doing it is a bad way to do it [10:32] Hiro Protagonist: Justin: Yep [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya tribal did it 1st [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik, the performance of webgl is just far too low atm to do something as complex as sl [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: I think another company also did it [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: cant remember their name now [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: but Tribal was the 1st [10:33] Allen Kerensky: webgl could do quake3d and stuff [10:33] Hiro Protagonist: yeah it was a Japanese company [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats right it was [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: cant remember the damn name now [10:33] Dahlia Trimble: quake is a little less difficult than sl [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: quake3d is a picnic compared to this [10:33] Richardus Raymaker: i think if you want todo something, you betetr have some remote desktop system. in some way and run the heavy task on strong system. that way people that are addicted to tablets can use it [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:33] Allen Kerensky: but its a start [10:33] sim core: :-J [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: there are some issues with WebGL [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: mainly because of the ugc I believe [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: mostly with UDP [10:34] Sarah Kline: I quite like Jibe & Unity [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: its difficult to impossible to do UDP in a web browser [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: people talk to me about webrtc being able to do udp stuff [10:34] Sarah Kline: pity its not free ) [10:34] BlueWall Slade: no Linux / no BlueWall [10:34] Dahlia Trimble: I did UDP in my unity viewer [10:34] Allen Kerensky: nod BlueWall [10:34] Hiro Protagonist: no linux / no Hiro [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: sarah: I heard some vague sounds jibe was going to be open-source? But I tend to reserve judgement until this stuff is actually published [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: well Unity can do C# stuff right? [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think you can easily do UDP with say PHP or Javascript [10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: the issue with unity3d is no linux and it's a proprietary plugin [10:35] Sarah Kline: interesting if so ) [10:35] Hiro Protagonist: it's about to be able to run as a native app in chrome [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: not that its impssible, its just very difficult and performance is not so good [10:35] Dahlia Trimble: Unity now has "same origin policy" so that makes things a lot more difficult [10:35] Hiro Protagonist: it does now in dev versions but no network stack yet [10:35] Sarah Kline: if they developed a client for it [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: hope it run inn something else then chrome to.. [10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: like web-brwoser same origin policy? [10:35] Dahlia Trimble: yes [10:36] Hiro Protagonist: I dont run any browsers but chrome [10:36] BlueWall Slade: Dahlia has a killer pathfinder in her sim [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya that sort of makes sense, sandbox it up [10:36] Raz Welles: I use chromium [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: hi raz: [10:36] Richardus Raymaker: i stay far away from chrome, its google, and it looks terrible [10:36] Raz Welles: heya :) [10:36] BlueWall Slade: she sends out bots to hunt you down and you can't run from them [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you see, everbody just slowly drifts in to this meeting - not many punctual people ;) [10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: or maybe it's just the wrong time of day [10:36] Dahlia Trimble: attack bots :) [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [10:36] Richardus Raymaker: lol dahlia... funny. [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: its funny every week seems different [10:36] Allen Kerensky: i'd like to let that loose in Ahern welcome area in SL [10:37] Raz Welles: I didn't even know the meeting was going on, I got logged here because home sim was down and stayed x3; [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes i get here 10 minutes early and there is already 10 people ehre [10:37] BlueWall Slade: hehe [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: here* [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah does fluctuate a lot [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes i completely forget and show up 10 minutes late and there is only 4 or 5 [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:37] Raz Welles: x3 [10:37] BlueWall Slade: Allen - that day/night thing with the viewer... [10:37] Taarna Welles: I was late at home and couldn't earlier :) [10:37] Taarna Welles: *join [10:37] Dahlia Trimble: Anyone using Zen viewer? I have terrible trouble with my inventory in that viewer [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: also, depends on whether opeople are really inteterested in what we talk about :) [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: I am in Nirans at the moment [10:38] Taarna Welles: yes I do Dahlia [10:38] BlueWall Slade: try setitng the sun to night or day, then set it back to region settings [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: because Zen has shadow issues, but normally i would be using Zen [10:38] BlueWall Slade: then it's right [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: had not had any inventory issues myself [10:38] Hiro Protagonist: yes, doesn't seem to be much substance to this meeting [10:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Justincc: What are you talking about? :-) [10:38] Allen Kerensky: interesting - thanks BlueWall I will try adjusting the sun when I get home [10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: spoton3d, but I believe we just left that topic [10:38] BlueWall Slade: I still dont' know what is causing it, but I did see that [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: lol [10:39] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves to everyone [10:39] Richardus Raymaker: shame people cant make 1 good viewer that have all things. [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: hello Andrew [10:39] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew [10:39] BlueWall Slade: hi Andrew [10:39] Raz Welles: j0 Andrew [10:39] Sarah Kline: hi Andrew [10:39] Raz Welles: Richardus I was thinking about that yesterday in awg [10:39] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, ok. Care to just mention again what it is? (ie. another viewer?) [10:39] Raz Welles: I wonder if a simple virtual world project could be started where the viewer was python on top of C++, so that development could progress at a much faste rpace [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it was another company, but I don't think there's much point talking more about it [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: mostly an old topic Andrew about embedding viewer in a iframe on web browser [10:40] Dahlia Trimble: Ive cleared cache a zillion times and reconfigured and triple checked my region inventory configs countless times and either UDP or HTTP nieither work with zen for me [10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: you should look at solipsis, realxtend, etc. [10:40] BlueWall Slade: Justin - how much protection would Overte offer a viewer project? [10:40] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, k. Just curious about what it is is. [10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: but the trouble is none of those projects gain traction [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: dahlia, do you have same issue here on Wright Plaza [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: or any of the plazas? [10:40] Raz Welles: Justin: I've been watching RealXtend since they showed their original SL viewer beta's [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: or is it something with just your regions only? [10:40] Raz Welles: I was really sad when they moved away from opensim [10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: it would be probolematic, I think [10:40] BlueWall Slade: :( [10:40] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, yesterday on lbsa someone complained about day/night ptoblem or so on the sim. [10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yeahm I've seen a bug filed on that [10:41] BlueWall Slade: even a "from-scratch" one? [10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: What do you mean by 'protection'? [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: I would think a from scratch one would probably be more doable [10:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro: These meetings are a bit of a free for all. YOu never know what topics may come up from week to week. [10:41] BlueWall Slade: from lawsuits [10:41] Hiro Protagonist: Andrew: Yep, been coming to them somewhere around five years now ;) [10:42] Richardus Raymaker: hiro, opensim is to good. so not always same problems :O [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: The trouble is, opensim is a strange beast, so many things jammed into it quite monolithic [10:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, ok. That's a lot longer than me. :-) [10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: but why would such a project need protection? [10:42] BlueWall Slade: from patent trolls [10:42] Richardus Raymaker: terrible creaturesd ^ [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: if someone has a patent then there's really no protection [10:43] Allen Kerensky: join the EFF - contribute when you can - and hope they can help you find prior art to use in your defense [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: the only protection, really, is the fact that no-one has anywhere near enough money to make suing worthwhile [10:43] Hiro Protagonist: there is plenty of prior art [10:43] Allen Kerensky: or host your code on SeaLand hehe [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: well honestly [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: even if you can claim prior art [10:44] Hiro Protagonist: that whole 'viewer in the browser' thing is completely unpatentable, it's been around a long time [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: if you end up in court [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: chances are your going to get wiped out [10:44] Hiro Protagonist: (e.g., cybertown) [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: from legal costs [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: even if you are 100% in the clear [10:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, If it hasn't been patented someon might still do it even if it has been around a while. [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: tbh, I think something will eventually emerge from leftfeld, maybe from the minecraft like direction [10:44] Hiro Protagonist: that doesn't make it a valid patent. [10:44] Dahlia Trimble: finding prior art is one thing, successfully defending a lawsuit without bankruptcy is another [10:44] Hiro Protagonist: show prior art, and the patent can be invalidated [10:44] Allen Kerensky: hmm sounds like you need to host your software repository as a Tor hidden service [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: or possibly sub-projects have to grow up first that are much more generic to serve a lot of different MMO-like things [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: World of Warcraft is actually under major attack right now from patents [10:45] Hiro Protagonist: unfortunately, thats the current process, so what neb says about the expense of just fighting it ruining you is 100% spot-on (pun intended) [10:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, Still have to fight against it after the fact when it gets approved due to someone at patent office not realizing it wasn't valid in the first place. [10:45] Allen Kerensky: heh Neb couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of a trolls than Blizzard too [10:45] Richardus Raymaker: the need to change that whole patent syste, its so hard abused this days [10:45] Hiro Protagonist: yes Andrew exactly [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: well the problem is [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: if WOW falls, secondlife isnt far behind [10:46] Richardus Raymaker: still remeber the "1 click shopping" patent. how ever can you get patant on that ?! [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: but these patent things generally either fizzle out or they come to some kind of settlement [10:46] Richardus Raymaker: and opensim ? [10:46] Allen Kerensky: well there are 15 other VWs after WOW to sue through getting after more cash than SL has [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: well, worst for blizzard is that they have to pay some money to make people go away [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: from what we have seen laately [10:46] BlueWall Slade: lol, somebody will patent breating or walking [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: people are suing for the cach, I'm sure [10:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems these days that if you can't invent something on your own, just file patents for something others are using then sue for patent violation to get money. [10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: cash [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: alot of these patent trolls have as much to loose as the companies they are chasing after [10:46] BlueWall Slade: then you will have to pay them just to go to the bathroom [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: a few cases judges have confiscated all the trolls patents [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: for abusing the system [10:47] Richardus Raymaker: in what way is SL, maby useing patanents from others ? and opensim not ? [10:47] Hiro Protagonist: yes, the tide is starting to turn [10:47] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks sometimes thinks about filing a patent for using wheels on an automobile. [10:47] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev         847127f: 2012-05-14 00:15:56 -0400 (Unix/Mono) [10:47] Hiro Protagonist: and that one group of professional trolls out of las vegas has been completely shut down [10:47] Hiro Protagonist: they were the main ones [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the one i was thinking of Hiro [10:47] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab [10:48] BlueWall Slade: anyways, the reason for the question related to what Dahlia said about being afraid of using the viewers she develops becuase of those [10:48] Allen Kerensky: yeah that chilling effect is the worst part [10:48] BlueWall Slade: Texas is the major place for them [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I thnk it's a misplaced fear - dahlia will never have enough money to make it worthwhile for anybody to sue her ;) [10:48] Richardus Raymaker: hi void [10:49] Allen Kerensky: creativity crushed or avoided just because there *might* be some idiot parasite out there feeling litigious [10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: assuming she would be covered by any patent, even if it exists [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya lets be honest [10:49] Void Pipe: hi all [10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: hello void [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: Patent trolls are not interested in defending their patents [10:49] BlueWall Slade: hi Void [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: 100% of their goal is to make money off the backs of inovators [10:49] Hiro Protagonist: I think it rather unlikely that most of these corporate interests will even recognize small infringing opensource projects; the reason being, the process of prosecuting such claims is anything but cheap, and they have nothing to gain by doing so [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: if there is no money, there is no interest [10:49] Dahlia Trimble: well the patent isnt the only reason I dont use it ;) [10:49] Dahlia Trimble: but its a big one [10:50] Hiro Protagonist: and it's all about taking the other guy's money, not protecting the intellectual property; that intellectual property belongs to an entire generation of people [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: honestly, if you look at embedded linux devices [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: like TV's and other things [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i saw some report that said most Embedded linux devices are infringing on patents [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: and are making millions of dollars [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: and no one sues them [10:50] Hiro Protagonist: yeah, who are they going to sue [10:51] Hiro Protagonist: and who is going to do the suing [10:51] Richardus Raymaker: holds mirror up in front of troll [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: well Like Mitsubishi and Toshiba were big offenders [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: well, think of all the money manufascturers of android handsets pay microsoft [10:51] Allen Kerensky: and a lot of linux infringement claims are bogus - look at what happened when Microsoft had to put up or shut up [10:51] Richardus Raymaker: justin 10$ / device if im right [10:51] Allen Kerensky: they mysteriously couldn't actually point to the code - because they knew if they did - it would have been replaced that day anyway [10:51] Hiro Protagonist: most of those people are literally being extorted by threat of litigation [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya its a minefield really [10:52] Hiro Protagonist: microsoft has yet to take any of them to court [10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: they took barnes & noble to court [10:52] Hiro Protagonist: it was settled out of court because it was clearly cheaper in terms of upfront cash and long term stability [10:52] Dahlia Trimble: Ive been thru infringement lawsuits before, its NOT fun [10:52] Hiro Protagonist: IJustin: over android? [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya, even if your right, its a lot of work [10:52] Void Pipe: any news about physics in opensim? [10:52] Richardus Raymaker: only strong thing with opensource (see samsung vs apple ) if some coe is wrong. it can be replaced [10:52] BlueWall Slade: software has copyright protection [10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: ah ha, you speak with much more knowledge than me in that case, thankfully [10:53] BlueWall Slade: it needs no patent protection [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: Void pipe, I have not spoken to the Intel guys in a while [10:53] Void Pipe: ok [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: been kind of busy lately, I'll try to find out if anything is coming down the line soon [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: big problem with stuff from intel taking so long [10:53] Void Pipe: it would be great with a focused effort for better physics [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: is everything they do has to pass through their legal department [10:53] Void Pipe: yes I know [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: so sometimes it gets hung up for a while [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: they do it in big batches [10:53] Richardus Raymaker: then if am right, why does the usa have something stupid as software patents ? [10:53] Dahlia Trimble: what's coming from Intel that you're waiting for? [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: nothing specific Dahlia, just the bulletsim stuff [10:54] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey wonders if we can get off the topic of software patents :) [10:54] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia bullet [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: ah ok [10:54] Hiro Protagonist: well there seems to be little opensim news, so we're all kinda groping about for things to fill the void [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: how about zen inventory? ;) [10:54] Void Pipe: fill the Void? lol [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: I responded about that earlier dahlia [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: i think it got lost in the mix [10:55] Hiro Protagonist: doesn't run on linux, so it doesnt run here [10:55] Void Pipe: i dont need to be filled [10:55] Richardus Raymaker: hat little opensim news ? [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia, do you have same inventory issues on Wright Plaza [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: or any of the Plazas? [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: well, i'm sure there are a vast array of possible opensim topics [10:55] Raz Welles: Let's do a new virtual world, get rid of the grid concept, make the server act as a synch point and scene-graph where you insert url's to content [10:55] Dahlia Trimble: havent tried wright [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not as if we have an empty bug trakcer, after all [10:55] Raz WellesRaz Welles is daft atm [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: I have not seen any issues with my inventory in Zen [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: but Mic Bowman asked me about it couple days ago too [10:55] BlueWall Slade: lol [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: he seemed to have same problem with Zen [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: he claimed it was only 3.3.3.3 [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: look forward to seeing you kick that off on github then ;) [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: that 3.3.3.1 had no inventory issues [10:56] Dahlia Trimble: its really bad with saving and finding saved outfits [10:56] Richardus Raymaker: does the bug tracker have some counter with open bugs ? [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: or maybe it was 3.1 based Zen [10:56] Richardus Raymaker: or beter reports [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember [10:56] BlueWall Slade: I've seen some inventory things in V3 [10:56] BlueWall Slade: couldn't drop them [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm wondering if there's an issue with SL 3.3.1 [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but he seemed to think it was something that happened after SL v3.3 came out [10:56] Raz Welles: Justin: Already done, it's composed of a few lines of pyglet that says "Hello, world" and a server "coming soon" [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: I have not seen any issues myself Justin [10:56] Raz Welles: :P [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: and I have 40,000 items [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: the was that e-mail from ai austin a few days agao saying he was having problems with outfits on 3.3.1 [10:56] BlueWall Slade: Melanie said that it was because the inventory wasn't filled in yet. [10:56] Raz Welles: coming soon for the next 10 years [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: heh [10:56] sim core: :-J [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: justin, with opensim? [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yes [10:57] Hiro Protagonist: Ok, I'm kicking out to take a nap. Cheers :) [10:57] Hiro ProtagonistHiro Protagonist waves [10:57] Raz Welles: tc Hiro [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: bye hiro [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: see you Hiro [10:57] BlueWall Slade: later Hiro [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: laterz [10:57] Richardus Raymaker: bye hiro [10:57] Sarah Kline: byes [10:57] Richardus Raymaker: hello raz [10:57] Raz Welles: actually I do like the url->content idea, but that's even more unsafe than the current LL model, content creators be afraid of it more than anything else available [10:58] Raz Welles: from a server standpoint though, it lightens up the asset problem quite a bit [10:58] Raz Welles: *would be [10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: you could theoretically do this with opensim now with a bit of work [10:58] BlueWall Slade: I have sondered about distributed assets [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: though maybe not for all classes of assets [10:59] Richardus Raymaker: if HG takes some lift you get close to the idea i think [10:59] Raz Welles: I think most of the issue holding VW dev back is not opensim, but viewers [10:59] Raz Welles: It's just too hard to get into viewer dev [10:59] Raz Welles: it takes a day just to set up [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: yes i agree [11:00] Dahlia Trimble: I do viewer dev but not on LL code base [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: last time I got it to build it did not work properly - my avatar would not appear [11:00] Raz Welles: almost always results in a compile error or thousand, and every compile/link step takes at least10-15 mins [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: and I didn't have a reason to press on and find out why [11:00] Raz Welles: Justin: d'oh [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: but the viewer is much bigger than opensim - 1millions loc I think [11:01] Raz Welles: I don't think anyone is brave enough to take it on, but I feel like stuffing a python console into the viewer could speed up dev quite a bit, a la panda [11:01] Void Pipe: horrible lot of dependencies [11:01] Void Pipe: it is really a kludge [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya and thats just 1 OS [11:01] BlueWall Slade: I need to update mine pretty soon [11:01] Nebadon Izumi whispers: now make it work on Linux's, Windows and OSX [11:01] BlueWall Slade: hope it dont' blow up [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:02] Raz Welles: Imagine being able to add normal map support in a day or so, via a single script plugin [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it seems to me the underlying graphics stuff just isn't reliable enough [11:02] Void Pipe: well imprudence is actually impossible on OSX now [11:02] Void Pipe: to compile [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it's going to take a long time before the situation improves enough, I suspect [11:03] Void Pipe: i did put a week into it... lol [11:03] Void Pipe: and they seems to have given up on it [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: the LL viewer is like 10+ years of work [11:03] BlueWall Slade: is anybody here using telehubs? [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: and still its filled with old problems [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: it's an extremely complex program [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: the biggest problem with the LL viewer is [11:04] Void Pipe: yes a total kludge [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: though part of that has to be because it grew organically [11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: The LLLL viewer must be beaten with a mace and requires the sacrifice of two goats and one Linden before you can safely work on the code. [11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: LL* [11:04] Raz Welles: Justin: it may be 10 years of work, but that's 10 years of bugfixes and backing out of features, I don't think it would take a team the same amount of time to do [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: promise that opemsim never drops the last name :O [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: they want it to run on very old hardware cross platform too [11:04] Raz Welles: the company built v2 in what, a year or two [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: if they took the WOW approach and made it run on newer hardware only [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: yeah, I agree on that point. [11:04] Raz Welles: I thought that was the Crysis approach [11:05] Raz Welles: er, blue mars [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: and like 98% of your customers are Windows users [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: things get a lot easier [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I thought the wow approach was to remain graphically simple, relatively speaking, to run on as much hardware are poxsible? [11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Just how far back is the viewer meant to be functional? [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: i hear now already people complain about viewers dont run, systems get hot. viewer lag etc. [11:05] Dahlia Trimble: I thought WoW wanted to run on really old stuff [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: let me look what minimum requirements are [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: in practice, sl 1.3.2 should still work fine with opensim [11:05] Sarah Kline: most people are not really using hi end gaming computers [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: or whatever the last v1 was [11:06] BlueWall Slade: could make a gam where it's all hippies with "Make Love Not War" signs and smoking weed.... [11:06] BlueWall Slade: call it MOM [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya their requirements are about the same as SL [11:06] Sarah Kline: wows avatars are awful [11:07] Raz Welles: grahpically they can just handle more av's because they have full control over the artwork [11:07] Sarah Kline: in comparison to ours [11:07] Dahlia Trimble: WoW graphics look pretty outdated [11:07] Dahlia Trimble: well the artwork does [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: wow seems to be just dropping off the popularity sruve now [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: subscriptions slowly starting to trend down [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i guess wow is a bad example [11:07] Raz Welles: what's the next big mmo? [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: star wars old republic! :) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya that looked cool [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: 0x10c [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: honestly though, I cant stand MMORPG [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: notch's next one [11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: SL/Opensim is 100% dynamic. ANything can change at any time, you can't pre-program any shadows or graphics really like most games can. [11:08] Dahlia Trimble: guild wars 2 is coming any day now but they have been saying that for years [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: id rather listen to nails scratch on chalk board than play MMORPGs [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: thats what makes it ridiculous complicated :) [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: why is that? [11:08] Raz Welles: Where is Kokua btw [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: back [11:08] Raz Welles: haven't heard from them in ages [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: I just can't get into them [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: they seem like a huge waste of time to me [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: doing alpha releases - they would like help testing if people have time [11:09] Raz Welles: are they still catering to opensim? [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how is that different from a virtual world though? [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: I am not much of a gamer though [11:09] Dahlia Trimble: I spend more time than I care to admit playing MMOs :/ [11:09] Raz Welles: someone was spreading a rumor they were targeting SL now [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: they havily lean that way [11:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Anytime I try an MMO, I waste all my time exploring and poking stuff to see what happens. [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: the rumour is wrong [11:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Often resulting in many deaths. [11:09] Raz Welles: phew [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: well with SL and OpenSim, i feel like I am atleast learning something [11:09] Sarah Kline: lol [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: heh [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: in something like WOW, what are you learning? [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: OtakuMegane: as compared to the time you spend in SL/OS exploring and poking at things? ;-) [11:10] sim core: :-J Mmos are better, for 'Fluidity' and that last as long as you find it becomes repetitive quickly [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I guess wow is more about having a fun time than learning, necessarily? :) [11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: But you're supposed to do that in SL/OS. [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I gues sthe major difference is they give you a definite goal to purse [11:10] Raz Welles: I still tihnk there's a tremendous opportunity for game initiatives in opensim, but we really really need some viewer dev's willing to branch away from LL a bit [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: I like MMOs. I need mindless entertainment to give my brain a rest sometimes ;) [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: pursue [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Ya i suppose, don't get me wrong I definately see how they can be so popular [11:10] Raz Welles: *think [11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: MMOs you're supposed to like, progress or something. Not run up to the nearest thing and whack it just cause you haven't yet. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its just not my thing [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: I think we still need a better simulator as well [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its not just WoW for me, I just am not a RPG type [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: It would help to have viewer code that was easier to compile. [11:11] Raz Welles: The sim will always be improved and polished, but in my experience, that's not what's holding gaming back atm [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: Well, I actually feel like you - I wouldn't have any motivation to program a game server since I wouldn't feel worthwhile doing it [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: I am more into Simulation type games [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: like Battlefields [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: which is a funny idiosyncratic attitude, I admit [11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: The only modern MMO I have any interest in is the original Everquest. It's a massive world with tons of quests and subquests and hidden goodies. [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I prefer adventure games to most other games that are usually about shooting at other people/things. [11:12] sim core: :-) Well that's what I mean, bf2 and the likes [11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: Technically that's not even a modern one any more I suppose lol [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya Battlefield 3 came with my new video card [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: man [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: agree with nebadon and learning [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that game is just nutso [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: well lunch time for me, laterz all :) [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [11:12] Raz Welles: tc Dahlia :) [11:12] BlueWall Slade: Byue Dahlia [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, dahlia [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i fraps recorded a small bit of BF3 play [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its so insane [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: I agree that being able to put in more gaming stuff is actually a big thing for these kinds of virtual environments [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBxgMUGNmaE&feature=plcp [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: I think linden lab has the right direction on that, personally [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: gaming environments are very near the virge of feeling to realistic [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, they are pretty maazing [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: wow that looks pretty nebadon [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will be interesting to see when a world like Second Life or OpenSimulator [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: has a graphics engine on par with BF3 [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: or more modern games like Skyrim [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: bad idea to ship BF3 with yopur card :)) [11:14] Raz Welles: Justin: right, gaming is a good idea for VW's, but the viewer is holding it back- and they hardly addressed any of the problems they recognized as issues during the conference [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya they didnt even ship it with it [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:14] Raz Welles: like "redundancy" [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: all i got was a key to download it from EA [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: 15gb download [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: grr [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: redundancy? [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ouch [11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewer is holding back a lot of things. Unfortunately it's not anything easy or quick to fix. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya viewer development gets very complicated [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: especially in OpenGL [11:15] Raz Welles: Justin: probably the wrong word, but, the ability to make changes in one script and have it propagate through the system [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I',m quite surprised to hear people say that tbh - to me there are still a lot of sim and arch issues that make things difficult [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya and [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: if i want a RL loof and feel.. i can step out oof the front door :) [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: if you upgrade your hardware as I have recently [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: you will find the viewer a much more pleaseant experience [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: if your nursing along old hardware [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer suuuuucks [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: i have the 275 nebadon. not bad. [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: ignoring all the bugs, you can't have amny avatars in one place and, leaving aside hacks like megaregions and not generlaly available stuff like variable regions, you're very limited in the amount of space available before you have to go through laggy regin transitions [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: honestly Richardus [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: what I am finding [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: in SL viewer [11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Not everyone has lots of monies though. [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: i know people that still have some 208 viewe look [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the CPU is more important than the Video card [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: system being multiple regions? [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: Or is this to do with the nature of scripting in SL? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: when Diva ordered my parts for me [11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Really? I find the exact opposite. Or rather, both are fairly important. [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I got the video card about 2 weeks before the rest of the parts [11:17] Raz Welles: Justin: http://razwelles.blogspot.com/ (plugplug) [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: i agree with the cpu. uhmm dont use amd on desktop [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I originally had the Nvidia GTX 560 in my core2quad 9550 [11:17] Raz Welles: Comparatively between OpenSim and SL, OpenSim is better equipped to handle RPG scenarios [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: which is a 2.83ghz CPU [11:18] Raz Welles: especially via a region module [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it ran ok [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: since i run intel. with the graphics card things run way betetr [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: yes, I think that was a very interesting post [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but I was very dispaointed [11:18] Raz Welles: ty :) [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I saw a big improvement in frame rates when I temporarily switched to a different video card. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: in the Viewer [11:18] Raz Welles: What I felt was holding me back in both scenarios was mainly of viewer issue origin [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: my performance was almost no better than my Nvidia 250GTS [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: but my card can have a bit more power to. maby a 570 opr 580 ? the 680 is to expensive .. lol [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it was mybe 5-10% faster with the same CPU [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: when i got the new motherboard and CPU though [11:18] Raz Welles: I couldn't do a proper HUD, and my character movement was constrained to what the viewer constrained me to [11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Well yes, if your CPU is the bottleneck then it becomes much more important. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: my frame rade jumped up 10-15fps wiht the SL viewer [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: somtimes even more [11:19] Raz Welles: for example, I couldn't change my camera view and have my controls change in accordance (like going to side view and having controls change to accommodate that view) [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Nvidia 7300LE to 8600 got me to max frame rates. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: and things looked a lot better [11:19] Raz Welles: and for a hack 'n slash, I can't make turning any faster [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I went from around 10 to 15 up to 45 [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: it seems like OpenGL is way more dependant on your CPU [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: than say DirectX [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: which leans more on the GPu [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i ran a OpenGL benchmark [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: same video card [11:20] Raz Welles: though on an interesting note, I did notice that avatar rotation isn't synched well with server rotation, that's a problem residual from SL though because the problem is there too as well [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: my score increased by like 50% just by changing the CPU out [11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: It can depend on your platform too. OS X has OpenGL woven into everything. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but the same test in directx mode [11:20] Raz Welles: so if you have a third person avatar attacking an enemy, it's a gamble where you really are facing [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: my score was almost unchanged [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: raz: interesting. It may well be possible to tweak opensim stuff to match better. [11:21] Raz Welles: ooh that would be cool :) [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, can you now record nice at 30fps without dropping below it with fraps ? [11:21] Raz Welles: Justin: but yeah bottom line is, the big constrain right now is the viewer, not the server [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: i still have cases its going hard down [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it depends Richardus where I am filming [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: ok. same here [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: fraps is always going to kill frame rate a bit [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to pop off and do some work [11:22] Raz Welles: tc :) [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: kk see you Justin [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the conversation, folks [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. I should get going as well [11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( dinner calls have fun pll ) [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Some emails to send and more coursework still to catch up on [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: well as long you record fast enough its not bad. wich setting do you use in frames neb ? [11:22] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: 60fps [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: bye justin [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: in Fraps