Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-22

[11:02] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit.. [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I supsect attendance will be light again today but that is ok :) [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well. les speoplke betetr chat ? :O [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: did you read the news about SL get more bones ? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Kayaker [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: or short meeting. :) [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea I saw that [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: will probably be a bit before we see that in opensim im guessing [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I woudl say, it feels like a second blooper like the did with mesh clothing. already read about talk that you need to make 3 animations for different size avatars [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: still it opens the doors [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: im sure it will be rough at first, that is normal [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I could see different animations for extra bones vs standard bones but not based on size difference in avatar. [11:07] Ubit Umarov: i see a ballon... [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hey Ubit [11:07] Ubit Umarov: ooos its radms :) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert :) [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think the are to late with it Ubit [11:07] Robert Adams: hello all [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi robert [11:07] Ubit Umarov: Hi robert [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: more bones is not making it cheaper [11:08] Ubit Umarov: more bones more attachment points.. etc [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: question I have is will an opensim viewer even get this code [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: like singularity [11:09] Ubit Umarov: fs will get it [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya but if only 1 viewer has support [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: thats going to make for a very ugly world [11:09] Robert Adams: they have to add the new avatarr rendering code... it is really all happening in the viewer [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: id almost rather not support it at this point [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity isn't getting any changes these days so not likely they will add bones support any time soon. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: if the viewers are going to skew [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SIngualrity is already running behind i think with new releases [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i will not change to firestorm [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: personally [11:10] Ubit Umarov: hope we don't need to change much on regions code [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i mean i use it [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but it wont ever really become my primary viewer [11:10] Ubit Umarov: unless they also change protocols etc [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Unfortunately I've found FS is the only viewer that seems to have current code and is stable. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya if it changes protocols too [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: then its even worse [11:11] Robert Adams: I started to try and break the avatar rendering code out of the viewer... didn't get far... it is a serious intertwined mess [11:11] Ubit Umarov: then we will have a problem [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i dont see how we could support it if it does [11:11] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev       e095f51: 2015-12-19 15:29:51 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: without cutting off all old viewers [11:11] Ubit Umarov: fs does not have coders willing to suport opensim it its 2 hard [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: even firstorm opensim support is spotty at best [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: be it the only option at the moment [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity hasn't fixed the breakage in their viewer that was introduced into their viewer some versions back. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: im not instilled with great confidence we will get this functionality anytime soon [11:12] Ubit Umarov: they did apply my patch for visualparamenters.. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: you never know someone might really really want it [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and do it [11:12] Ubit Umarov: singu alpha works here again [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i am more worried about singularity and others [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: at this point [11:12] Robert Adams: I think OS should support the bones and let the viewers fend for themselves... we shoul move ahead [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: how though without viewer support [11:13] Ubit Umarov: we dont care about bones [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: how do we move forward if we cant test it [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: chicken and egg [11:13] Robert Adams: only be a real problem if a new bone avatar crashes old viewers [11:13] Ubit Umarov: if there is no protocol change things should work [11:13] Ubit Umarov: but we need to wait and see [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of changes would need to be made in OS to support bones and would it break compatibility with viewers? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If you want more bones. you can better use one of the new worlds [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: someone has to update libomv im sure too [11:14] Ubit Umarov: possible ask FS a prototype viewer with that etc [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats easier though [11:14] Ubit Umarov: we do not care about bones!!! [11:14] Ubit Umarov: they are inside the mesh asset that we ignore [11:14] Robert Adams: if the addition is just more parameters in a hash array, old viewers just won't see the changes [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i imagine LL has to keep it somewhat backwards compatible as well [11:15] Ubit Umarov: attach points .. lets see [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or risk uprising [11:15] Ubit Umarov: sl doesn't need backwards [11:15] Ubit Umarov: it forces viewer updates [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean it likely wont crash old viewers [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm. well neb. LL is going to cut off old viewers anyway [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: tpvs it doesnt [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i mean upsetting the TPV community [11:15] Ubit Umarov: well guess we need to wait [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:16] Ubit Umarov: my worries are protocol changes [11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that is where LL is going to cut-off old viewers [11:16] Ubit Umarov: most of those changes are transparent to regions [11:17] Ubit Umarov: adn as robert said.. they can do it in a away even old viwers don't die [11:17] Ubit Umarov: well maybe :) [11:17] Robert Adams: fingers crossed [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea hopefullt it works out favorably for all [11:18] Ubit Umarov: don't know what they will do with a attachment point 41 :) [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: looks interesting for sure [11:18] Ubit Umarov: avn had something like this sometime ago :p [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ubit, the answere is 42 :) [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya they will need to get creative with attachment point names :) [11:18] Ubit Umarov: you can see code related to that on mesh upload code :) [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Left Wing, Right Horn [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:19] Ubit Umarov: a section named Skeleton :) [11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: singularity already up to chromium ? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: chromium? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: I doubt singularity is up on anything at this point [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, SL is dumping webkit [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i doubt any tpvs have that yet [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: does FS? [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Chromium is a code name for an SL release? [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, but UkaDo seems to be up to 4.0 already in a blog [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya singularity hasnt been updated in some time [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: possible there is new code in their repository [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: https://bitbucket.org/chromiumembedded/cef [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that isnt in release but i doubt it has that [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing seems to get small updates now and then but its still unstable. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it works well enough [11:21] Ubit Umarov: they did some work on alpha [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we use Singularity mostly for Encitra [11:21] Ubit Umarov: but not much [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: viewer stability has more to do with your hardware [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: than the actual viewer I find [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it my opensim viewer. because FS is in use for SL [11:22] Ubit Umarov: at least it does work here again [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing Alpha for Linux crashes very soon after you log in without having to even do anything.g [11:22] Ubit Umarov: and does parcel minimap nicelly [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: They still haven't fixed hat yet. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: see linux singularity is perfect for me [11:22] Ubit Umarov: and doesn't crash with large regions as fs does [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been in large vars with FS for Linux wihout issues [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i dont use the latest alpha though either [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i know the latest alpha is broken [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: the release should be ok though [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think FS worked in my time betetr on linux 64bit then singulairty. well linux and viewers. you never know when and wich one works [11:23] Ubit Umarov: its the one i use to run in debug mode :) [11:23] Ubit Umarov: well fire it .. check some code and give up ;) [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: for me its more about the UI configuration than stability [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: FS does have much better shadows though [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but crash wise, they all the same for me [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: none are less crashy than other [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Only thing in singulairty. i wish ith where V3 design. singularity is pretty confusing this day because old layout [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: drivers and hardware are a big influence on stability [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I will give Sing release a try and see if is any less crashy han Sing Alpha. [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes alpha is totally broken [11:24] Ubit Umarov: but that is a singu point.. keeping old look [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: do not even try it [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: its very well known its completely busted [11:25] Ubit Umarov: that is way ppl like it [11:25] Ubit Umarov: ..why.. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: I think they have either lost interest or RL is very busy i guess [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I didn't really like the UI changes in latest LL viewers. I've started getting used to it when I use the LL viewer in SL. [11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: after Singularity Viewer (64 bit) 1.8.6 (6157) i only did hear problems. and i think never seena new version except alphas [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped asking, it was feeling hostile [11:26] Ubit Umarov: i reported a bug on irc.. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: no answer :) [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: As soon LL fixt thag bug in there viewer with UI scaling i want to try to switch from FS to SL one. it's faster in graphics and allow me to run shadows better [11:27] Ubit Umarov: but im worried [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: what viewer Ubit? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: seems LL is going to do changes on viewer code incompatible with us [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah in the opensl IRC? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( the bug report was on singu irc channel ) [11:28] Robert Adams: some of the other viewers have better people doing shaders [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: try maybe ping Liru directly [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: then duck :P [11:28] Ubit Umarov: that never worked well for me :) [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: haha ya [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well I hope they come back around [11:29] Ubit Umarov: my patch got in bc sianna saw it [11:29] Robert Adams: what changes do you think are coming, ubit? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: don't know robert :( [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: have you asked in #opensl ? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: nopes [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: oz is there somtimes [11:30] Ubit Umarov: well don't think we should be seem much by lindens :p [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps, i dont know what their feelings on libomv are [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: at this point [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Also LL is going to add some secure money protocul. can be problem for soem .. not many i think [11:31] Ubit Umarov: think its better they ignore we exist ;) [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but we are basically the sole maintainers of libomv now [11:32] Robert Adams: someday we'll have to split from SL, but, for the forseeable future, we should try to keep compatibility with them [11:32] Robert Adams: probably until on of the undercover viewer projects come to some fruition [11:33] Kayaker Magic: I've done some testing of llCastRay, does anyone here know what the difference is between V1 and V3 of llCastray? [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: If we do split with SL we could have even more of a problem with having a viewer that fully supports OS. [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: S/If/When(?)/ [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ubit and i were discussing raycasting earlier [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: Robert did you still plan on exploring bulletsim raycaster at some point for various uses? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ubode is using its raycaster for stuff now [11:34] Kayaker Magic: V1, the old default one is very slow in var-regions now. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: the C# caster is heavy [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and should be replaced with physics casters at some point [11:35] Kayaker Magic: V3 of llCastray is faster, has some new bugs. [11:35] Robert Adams: yes.... now with all the sitting and placement improvements, BUlletSim needs raycast [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: How is vehicle support in BS these days? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: nice ya that would be great [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its great andrew [11:36] Kayaker Magic: And V3 crashed a sim once on my, have not ben able to reproduce that... [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: swing by Sisyphus and grab the orange McLaren [11:36] Ubit Umarov: for sits you need also to "clone" ubOde code... those are on the module [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there are some other vehciles there as well [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i'll have to try again with a couple of vehicles I have. [11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( but are raycasts basicly ) [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: although they aren't cars. [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive only focused on cars [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the flying vehicles ive seen are not totally physics [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and are a bit heavy [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a touring balloon and a flying sleigh. [11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002 flüstert: yeah, but do the work with move to target or ? [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I've forgotten. I gave up trying to get them working until physics matured. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: baloon should be very doable [11:39] Robert Adams: MoveToTarget and ApplyForce are my first projects... then raycast [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: nice Robert, look forward to testing :) [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on how it was scripted. Bouyancy may have come in to play. I'll have to check. [11:40] Robert Adams: hopefully have some time this weekend after presents have been opened :) [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i am hoping to setup a clone of Sisyphus for ubode testing before the end of the year [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: maybe call it newton :) [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: apply force sounds familiar [11:41] Ubit Umarov: he meant the apple thing [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: actually i meant fig :P [11:41] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i was also dreaming earlier about being able to run both physics engines at once in the same simulator [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and being able to specify by name or script which engine the object uses [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I like to really complicate things [11:42] Robert Adams: I'm building three regions next to each other... same code but BulletSim, ODE, and ubODE :) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: :D [11:42] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: mostly so i could easily test both engines [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: withotu a lot of teleporting [11:42] Robert Adams: would be nice to have in-world physics unit tests [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: also then you could sort of cherry pick the best of both [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: anyway i was mostly just dreaming out loud haha [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: maybe a region module for that Robert? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that could be used in either engine? [11:44] Kayaker Magic: MoveToTarget, put that on the back burnr. It has always been useless. Only use is to try and fool it into doing other things... [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: osBenchmark module :) [11:45] Ubit Umarov: well i do see a lot of mix of vehicles and other functions [11:45] Ubit Umarov: that are suposed to be used with vehicles active [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: looking at calendar next meeting would be 29th [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: so no reason to really postpone it or anything [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I will show up if anyone else does that is great :) [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhuh [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: On a different topic someone asked me if in Opensim groups, does the role ability check off for Always allow 'Create Objects' function? [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know all the groups stuff works correctly [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: role wise [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: we are heavily reliant on it in Encitra [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the apply button doesnt always work in groups though [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. does that apply to both xmlrpc groups and core, or just for core? [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes you have to hit the OK button [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or stuff wont apply [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: like just hitting apply and closing window go back stuff isnt applied [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: not sure where that bug lives, but it sucks [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that sounds a bit like a viewer issue. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats only gotcha i experience with groups and roles [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: otheriwse it seems to enforce everythign [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll pass that info along. ty [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC and Encitra i am heavily reliant on this stuff [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon too [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: well I hope everyone has a nice holiday [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy holidays, everyone. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I dont have much planned msyelf just day at home with the fam mostly :) [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nah, not much intressting outside [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I should make a plan to work on some electronics projects for a change over the holidays. Have a couple things I want to finish up. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: nice, ive been messing with my raspberry pi collection [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Collection? :P [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: been working with some people in the opensim-arm irc channel [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: err opensuse-arm [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: trying to get tumbleweed working correctly on the pi2 [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: its a mess [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a 1B, want to get a 2B and am after a Pi Zero if I can catch when they are available. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you can order a zero now [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: not in stock. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but it will probably be a few weeks before you get one [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: some places still let you order [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: just have to wait for stock to replenish before they ship [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, but some of those places probably want too much in shipping. Crazy to pay about $12 shipping for a $5 item [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: my B+ took like a month to arrive [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i saw there ws a project for an addon board for raspberry pi [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: for m.2 sata [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and some other stuff [11:57] Ubit Umarov: those things are made form SOCs the manufacter considers obsolete now :) [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I almost got one from Adafruit but missed them by a few minutes. When they restocked I was out of the house and they were gone by the time I got home about a half hour later. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: my raspberry pi2 is great though its actually very fast [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: totally useable as a desktop [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: n2-sata for pi ? the pi is to slow for it i think [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: nice little dev machines [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: just ssd ata interface is enough [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I just use my Pi for developing software for AVR microcontrollers at the moment. [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its more about power consumption [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: the m.2 addon [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: only caught my eye cause i have 2 128gb m2 drives sitting here from my dead laptop [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ah [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: turn them into little NAS node or something [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: owncloud dump [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i have owncloud running on my B+ [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: to a 64gb usb stick [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: kind of cool [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: no matter where i am my machine could backup files instantly to my owncloud instance [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: See you later. I'm going back to dealing with time zones for some work I'm doing related to event listings. [12:12] Ubit Umarov: well have to put back the region texture somehow for that ossl funtion [12:13] Ubit Umarov: what a waste of grid disk