Chat log from the meeting on 2010-06-22

[09:16] xena little is Online

[09:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[09:26] Entering god mode, level 255

[09:28] Edie Stewart is Online

[09:39] Matto Destiny is Online

[09:46] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[09:46] Richardus Raymaker is Offline

[09:46] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed

[09:47] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed

[09:47] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed

[09:47] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[09:51] Erich Burner is Offline

[09:51] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[09:52] Deana Later gave you OSG 3B Balloons.

[09:53] Selected engine unavailable. Running script on XEngine

[09:53] Selected engine unavailable. Running script on XEngine

[09:53] Repudiator quann is Online

[09:54] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon

[09:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: do you know if there's a freeswitch expert ?

[09:55] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not sure really

[09:55] Nebadon Izumi: Snoopy maybe

[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: ok, then its trail and error.

[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: yes, snoopy use it

[09:56] Matto Destiny: hi all

[09:56] Richardus Raymaker: how can my viewer says 0fps and opensim syays nothing wrong ?

[09:56] Richardus Raymaker: helloo matto

[09:56] Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku

[09:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, been on 64-bit for about a week now. It does seem to run a little smoother, though at the cost of about 25% more memory usage (not an issue for me personally though). And I'm seeing the memory leakage now lol.

[09:57] Warin Cascabel is Online

[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: in what way memory leakage ? i start to work with64bit soon to

[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: it wont run out as memory as quickly though

[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: if you have enough physical ram that is

[09:58] Vampir Draken: hiya

[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[09:58] OtakuMegane Desu: In that the leak is noticeable. On 32-bit it was there but it could take a week or two before it was really noticed. 64-bit shows in a day or two

[09:58] Matto Destiny: hiya Vampir

[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: are there more that have the idea internet is bad the last few days ?

[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: hi vampir

[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: hope someone find the right cork for the leak soon.

[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny

[09:59] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-)

[09:59] Warin Cascabel: Hi, everyone. Sorry if I'm standing on someone, I am blind today (Radegast)

[09:59] OtakuMegane Desu: One of the later mono releases. It's pretty much mono's fault

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: i use 2.4.2.3 and i will use that for 64bit to

[10:00] Penny Lane: Hi Warin. Move 1 meter to your right, and select Sit.

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: i think your ok Warin

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: oh wait

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: no i didnt see penny

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: aha there hi warin

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Far as I know any real memory leaks in opensim itself were plugged a while back

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: until i cammed a bit

[10:00] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: there you go

[10:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Mono just has no useful garbage collection

[10:00] Warin Cascabel: Hope I'm sitting on a chair - it just says "Primitive". :)

[10:00] Penny Lane: Perfect, Warin, you're sat next to me, and Neb on the other side of me

[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: you are Warin

[10:00] Warin Cascabel: Excellent, thanks.

[10:01] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: you have a black face warin

[10:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Anyway, only other thing is 64-bit seems to bump base memory usage about 20%-25%. On the plus side things do seem a bit smoother and of course you can go much longer before running out of RAM, depending how much you have installed.

[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi armin

[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: oops. sorry. hi justin

[10:02] Penny Lane: Hi Armin

[10:02] Penny Lane: Hi JCC

[10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hello richardus, penny, gentlepeople

[10:02] Penny Lane: Gentle?

[10:02] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Justin

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: hey Jusitn

[10:02] Penny Lane sharpens teeth

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: Justin*

[10:03] Tesira Luco is Offline

[10:03] Matto Destiny: hiya :)

[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: alright then. not so gentle :)

[10:03] Penny Lane chuckles gently

[10:03] Warin Cascabel: Heh

[10:03] Penny Lane: Hi Matto

[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey burps

[10:04] Penny Lane: Over in today's AW Groupies meeting in SL, we've just proposed holding 1 meeting per month in OSgrid, starting next week I think.

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: So justin did you see that bug about Xengine that seems to have cropped up in 0.6.9 post fixes ?

[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: i breifly looked at the mantis

[10:04] Warin Cascabel: Nice, Penny. What does AW stand for in this context?

[10:04] Penny Lane: That'll stress OSgrid nicely :-)

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i think its post-fixes anyway

[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I did see the note - but I thought the original report was that it was fine in 0.6.9...

[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: ah, so it might be okay in 0.6.9 but broken in post-fixes?

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya i thought that too unless i misunderstood it maybe

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i gotta read it again

[10:05] Penny Lane: Warin: AWG was Architecture Working Group, and AWG Groupies is the SL community arm of AWG.

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya that was my take

[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: that would be interesting

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly its broke since the last OSgrid release

[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I saw you were having problems with meshing in 0.7-rc1?

[10:05] Warin Cascabel: Aha. :) When will the next meeting here be?

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: so sometime maybe since 06-04-2010

[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that sounds about right... I assumed that Melnaie was looking at it by the updates she made to the mantis

[10:06] Penny Lane: JCC: we haven't picked a victim ^W host sim yet :P

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok ya i wasnt sure what was going on

[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: might be good to confirm that with her. If it's also broken in post-fixes then it shouldnt' be so hard to track down

[10:07] Warin Cascabel: Penny, perhaps you can stress-test the OSgrid Welcome Station.

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: i did see she commented didnt notice if anyone took ownership though

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[10:07] Warin Cascabel: But let me know how many people you expect, Penny; I can put out additional seating if it's needed.

[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: melanie usually handles these scripting issues. If I look at it then it will take me some time to figure everything out, though I will if that becomes necessary

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok no problem

[10:07] Penny Lane: Warin: I didn't even know there was a Welcome Station. Lbsa seemed the closest to that :-)

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: only reason i asked you is because i know melanies not really working on 0.6.9-post-fixes

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: i wasnt sure if you thought maybe something you might have done had some kind of effect

[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I understand it's broken in 0.8-rc1 as well though

[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: no, it's definitely due to one of her patches

[10:08] Region Showcase Kiosk: Received 24 regions from database.

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt know she had any recent patches in post-fixes

[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I shouldn't say that... definitely = almost certainly :)

[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh yeah, she has been putting stuff in

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ok i'll go over it better then

[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: not that much, admittedly

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i was mostly assuming

[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: but it's broken in 0.7-rc1 too, I understand

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: so maybe something that got back ported then

[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: that should also help make it easier to find

[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: exactly

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: alright i guess that was my confusion then

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i assumed it was post-fixes only

[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: remind me the mantis number?

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: 4775 i think

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: hoi dahlia

[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: hi daena

[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia

[10:10] Penny Lane: Hoi Dahlia!

[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie assigned it to herself

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok good

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just pulled it pu

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i had not noticed she did ok i'll chat with her then see what she thinks

[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: and yeah, originally reported against 0.7-rc1

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: cool ya mostly i had heard it from WhiteStar hes only been testing post-fixes

[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: how is the 0.7-rc1 testing going, btw?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ok we gotta figure out the mysql thing though

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: other than that it seems ok so far

[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: the mesh problem disappeared?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: mesh problem?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: Diva did something not really sure exactly what

[10:12] Richardus Raymaker: whats wrong with mysql ? still the connection string ?

[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: oh interesting - I saw some changes go in but they were reverted

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i thought she was putting in more logging / debug messages

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: and ended up fixing the problem

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: it also prints the UUID now of the broken mesh

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: and i made sure to get Dahlia a copy of the object

[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: you mean that problem with the sculpties on that ipad model?

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: I think that's a problem with decoding the sculpt map

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: the actual meshing prblem is not fixed

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: but now its not a fatal error

[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: jpeg2000 thing

[10:13] Warin Cascabel: Is it by any chance an oblong sculpt map?

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: i wonder what was the resolution on that sculpt map?

[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: oblongs should work

[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: well they were working on my last testing

[10:14] Warin Cascabel: I've noticed an issue with recent Imprudence builds with sculpt maps less than 64x64 pixels, mostly on oblong. I don't know if it's uploading them improperly, or decoding them improperly.

[10:15] Warin Cascabel: well, any texture less than 64x64, really - but I first noticed it with sculpt maps.

[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: does armin know it ?

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i remember having issues even with 32x32 while back

[10:15] Warin Cascabel: I believe he was in Lbsa when McCabe was testing it, yes.

[10:15] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties <64x64 are not well defined, they should be at least 64x64 for any viewer

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: for a long while SL was 32x32 wasnt it?

[10:16] Warin Cascabel: For an oblong sculpt map, is the important thing the total pixel area, or the linear dimensions?

[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: no, 32x32 is too small, some appear to work tho

[10:16] Warin Cascabel: 32x32 vertices is the standard grid, but 64x64 images produce better results for some reasons.

[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: best practice is 64^2 pixels

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i have found that also

[10:17] UUID Speaker: Prince Umarov: 08230471-d430-d9d5-6dc9-8660a3f96620

[10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: does your latest 0.6.9-post-fixes distro appear to be working as before? I want to know if my gelding of the group permissions checking worked

[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: standard is 33x33

[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: which is why 32x32 fails

[10:17] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: this simulator is running our release version

[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: but it needs to be a power of 2

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: it would basiclly be the same thing as release accept mysql

[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: so they use 64x64 and samplke

[10:18] Warin Cascabel: oh, 33x33? no wonder.

[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: *sample

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, thanks

[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: and anything larger than 64^2 is wasted space

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: feels ok

[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: and dont use alpha channels

[10:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya at one point the Lindens hinted at HD sculpty support

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: but that never came to be

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: i saw video of it on beta grid

[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: It looks like they're concentrating on mesh now

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: really high res sculpty with flexy

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:19] Dahlia Trimble: mesh is just better

[10:19] Warin Cascabel: At one time there was a proposal to use the alpha channel of a sculpt map as a "stiffness" parameter for flexi sculpts, but I don't know if it was ever actually implemented.

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya loads faster im sure

[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: Flexi dont work atm with sculpt :(

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: sculpty have the nasty habbit of flooding the asset server out

[10:19] Warin Cascabel: Some viewers support it, Richardus.

[10:19] Dahlia Trimble: I think hippo does

[10:19] Dahlia Trimble: it;s not pretty tho

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: if you made an entire sim out of sculpty using 15,000 uniquie sculpties

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: omg

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: that would be not good

[10:20] Warin Cascabel: Meerkat did, but yeah, not pretty there either.

[10:20] WhiteStar Magic is Online

[10:20] Warin Cascabel: In what way do sculpties flood the asset server?

[10:20] Deana Later: ...

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: well i just mean its alot of assets loading down

[10:20] Richardus Raymaker: I use sculpt rocks, but only 4-5 different ones. more types you dont need

[10:20] Deana Later makes a note

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: in SL terms

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its huge difference

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: when you have 100,000 active users

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: concurent users i mean

[10:21] Dahlia Trimble: hmmm laggy today

[10:21] Warin Cascabel: No worse than the textures - better, I would imagine, given many creators' propensity for using unnecessarily large textures on every surface.

[10:21] UUID Speaker: Prince Umarov: 08230471-d430-d9d5-6dc9-8660a3f96620

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: texture tax!

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: sim stats look solid

[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, internet seems a bit weird anyway last 2-3 days

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: im starting to wonder if 10mbs internet connection isnt enough

[10:21] WhiteStar Magic: maybe cause I just logged directly here

[10:21] Deana Later hangs her head and tries to not look guilty

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: right Warin im comparing Sculpty to Mesh though

[10:21] Dahlia Trimble: maybe they are playing with the "kill switch"

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: if what LL says is true about no vertex limit

[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: you talk about the abuse of 1024x1024 textures warin ?

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: and it would load considerably faster

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: then you could make 1 mesh that = 100 sculpty

[10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:22] Warin Cascabel: Yes, Richardus.

[10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Shouldn't need 1024x1024 unless you're in the 20m+ range or it's an animation

[10:23] Deana Later: omg i'm a texture abuser now to boot?

[10:23] Warin Cascabel: Of course, it depends on their vertex-to-prim ratio, Nebadon.

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think people like to believe that a larger sculpt map means a better sculptie, but actually it's worse because you get compression artifacts

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: well sure im just saying a really complex mesh will load considerably faster than 100 sculpty would

[10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: does seem rather laggy today

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: regardless of the conversion ratio

[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: 1024x1024 is only usefull with very large prims to

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: though im not really sure how optimized Collada is for streaming either

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: i guess time will tell

[10:24] Haku Mhia: is this turning into a plan to drop sculpts for meshes ?

[10:24] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties can transmit very efficiently

[10:24] Warin Cascabel: I doubt sculpts wil be dropped, Haku; that would break a lot of existing content.

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess they can, but we nor SL does

[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: are the easy to make compaered with sculpts ?

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: just go visit SL7B

[10:24] Dahlia Trimble: from what I've heard, I dont think the new LL mesh encoding is all that efficient for space

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: tell me if they load "efficiently"

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:25] Richardus Raymaker: hi haku

[10:25] Haku Mhia: it's the same really

[10:25] Haku Mhia: you make a mesh and convert it into a sculpt map

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya collada files are big

[10:25] Haku Mhia: hai rich

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dont undestand how they are gonna pull off no vertex limit collada

[10:25] Dahlia Trimble: keyword: "can"

[10:25] Sarah Kline: much easier..you extrude the shape you want rather than tweak a 32x33 mesh

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: are they going to allow 50mb mesh upload

[10:25] Haku Mhia: wtf?

[10:25] OtakuMegane Desu: Too many sculpts and it's not gonna matter much anyway if the end user can't even get it all to rez without waiting half an hour or something

[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: argh nebadan. then a sim takes hours to load

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: i made a collada export of the beast bike i was making out of sculpty in wings

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: the file was pretty big if i recall

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: and it wasnt even textured

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: it was just meshes only

[10:26] Dahlia Trimble: SL meshes also count against prim allocation, the more complex the mesh, the more prims it costs

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: aaah, so thats why LL wants meshes

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: have they hinted at all what the conversion would be?

[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: more prims needed more land needed

[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: so you can have "unlimited" verts, but only of you have enough prim allocation

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Their move makes more sense now

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: still, that wont prevent people from wearing the massive meshes

[10:27] WhiteStar Magic: you bet there was always a L$ factor involved....

[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: so be carefule with subdivision ;)

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: as far sa I know there wont be limits on avatar scores

[10:28] Edie Stewart is Offline

[10:28] Warin Cascabel: Regarding efficiency, it depends on how much they can compress down the mesh data. A 64x64 sculpt map, uncompressed, is about 12KB for 1089 vertices - about 12 bytes per vertex.

[10:28] Dahlia Trimble: scores?

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: or sorry cost

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: whatever that score point thing rating you get

[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: Avatar rendering costs

[10:28] Sarah Kline: would the mesh just not draw like a prim would?

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya they are both mesh

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: prims are mesh too

[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: prims are meshes

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: its just very simple shapes

[10:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Just very simple ones

[10:29] Warin Cascabel: heh

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: reduced to the most minimum of vertexs

[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: not always simple

[10:29] Sarah Kline: torus being the most vertices when tortured

[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: well ya torus are pretty nasty, spheres

[10:29] Warin Cascabel: They're transmitted parametrically to the viewer, which then converts the parametric data into a mesh to be rendered.

[10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: And for the majority of stuff, they're plenty to work with

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: but simple compared to some of the meshes you will find on say turbosquid

[10:30] Warin Cascabel: Standard prims are much more efficient to transmit than either sculpts or true mesh data.

[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: some prims are around 4000 vertices

[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: but most are far fewer

[10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: Then if you need more complex structures you go on to sculpts and such

[10:30] Edie Stewart is Online

[10:31] Haku Mhia: i suppose easy of use for the end user is also a factor

[10:31] Warin Cascabel: According to... I forget his name, but the Linden who developed the sculpts... a sculptie has the same number of vertices as a torus.

[10:31] Haku Mhia: is it easyer for them to get the shape they want tourtureing prims or creating a mesh ?

[10:31] Warin Cascabel: Depends on the shape.

[10:31] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties usually have 33x33 verts, ~1024

[10:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Depends on complexity and what it is

[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: wich side does the shape creation of sculpt ? client or server ?

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: client

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: server just feeds out raw data

[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: ok, then its only textures that are the pain

[10:32] Dahlia Trimble: server for collisions, on OpenSim

[10:32] Dahlia Trimble: not on SL tho

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya i figured he meant visually

[10:32] Warin Cascabel: It's transmitted as an image where the X coordinates of the vertices are held in the red channel, Y in green, and Z in blue.

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: SL doesnt do server side physics?

[10:32] Warin Cascabel: The viewer then converts that data to a mesh (and in OpenSim, the server converts it to a mesh for physical interactions).

[10:33] Dahlia Trimble: no sculptie collision shapes, it's more of a rounded box shape

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: oh i see

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:33] Warin Cascabel: Really, Dahlia?

[10:33] Dahlia Trimble: in SL, yes

[10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

[10:33] Warin Cascabel: Oh, in SL, right.

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: atleast the meshes will have proper collision

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: from the video i saw

[10:33] Warin Cascabel: I was gonna say - I can walk on them just fine here.

[10:33] Dahlia Trimble: OpenSim will use the actual sculptie shape if it can

[10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: In SL sculpties look pretty but by themselves are rather limited in function.

[10:34] OtakuMegane Desu: You end up having to add normal prims for surfaces to walk on or collide with

[10:34] Dahlia Trimble: good deal with a prim economy ;)

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[10:35] Richardus Raymaker: yes warin, thats so nice to walk on sculpt

[10:35] Haku Mhia: you have to do that sometimes with mega's aswell thou

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: well i think the amount of people leaving SL for OpenSim and BlueMars

[10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Opensim on the other hand does it right and renders the sculpt physically as well.

[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: most of the time lol

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: is costing their prim economy more than actually limiting it is helping it

[10:35] Haku Mhia: make the mega's phantom and use non-mega's for the collision

[10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Most is better than never lol

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: they gotta change that thinking soon, or their doomed

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: i am still wondeirng if mesh data has to be appplied to prims

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: like a sculpt

[10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Except they make most of their land profit off the whole prim limit mess

[10:36] Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, I think it's similar

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: and if the video showing the meshes was using illegal Mega prims

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: or they are actually going to allow mega meshes now

[10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Very, very few people would buy half-sim or larger if they didn't need the extra prim count

[10:37] Warin Cascabel: It does, Nebadon, so you can walk through a "door" that opens up via the hollow parameter, etc.

[10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: LL has used megaprims pretty much since they appeared

[10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: They just don't allow their normal creation

[10:37] Dahlia Trimble: well prims arent really free in OpenSim either, you have more prims and it will increase your server load

[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: is it not a violation to rez Megas on mainland?

[10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope

[10:38] Haku Mhia: yeah if ll really didnt want ppl useing mega's they would remove them from the asset servers

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: it used to be

[10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Long as it stays on your land of course

[10:38] Warin Cascabel: No, only if it interferes with others - like rezzing a megaprim on the corner of your parcel

[10:38] Dahlia Trimble: its just you;re free to account for it as you wish

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: man that makes Ivory Tower of prims even more lame

[10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: I think that may have been back in H1 when megaprims could screw with the physics

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: they constantly yell at me for rezzing mega prims there

[10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: H4 handles megaprims just fine

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: ive been told i would be banned from the sim

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if i didnt erase them immediatly

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:38] Warin Cascabel: By LL?

[10:39] Deana Later: they'd hate my house of cards

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: by Sandbox Staff

[10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol. I've built with some rather large megaprims before and nothing was ever said

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: not actual Lindens

[10:39] Warin Cascabel: That's the region owners' policy, then, not Linden Lab's.

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya but thats like the premeir sandbox on the grid too

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: used to be anyway

[10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Some region policies forbid them.

[10:39] Dahlia Trimble: only problem I've had with megaprims in SL is getting the right size

[10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: The Linden homes don't allow them either

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:40] Sarah Kline: through lack of understanding maybe

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: i have a couple 1000 mega prims in SL

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: finding the right one is a pain

[10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Salt HUD

[10:40] Richardus Raymaker: i have a 7000 mega prim box in sl

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: but its not like i even build in SL anymore

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: seems like a lot of the free sandboxes have closed

[10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: search for "Sandbox" in LL

[10:41] Richardus Raymaker: Nah, dot know what to build there, and for who ??

[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: well I'm going to build a new house in SL when they ever open up meshes

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: you get 10-12 results

[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: and maybe a few avatars

[10:41] Warin Cascabel: Costs quite a bit of disposable income to run a free sandbox region.

[10:41] Matto Destiny: i use http://megaprim.sl/ to get my mega's

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya there used to be 100's

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: in the place search

[10:41] OtakuMegane Desu: That's a lot of it. The cost

[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: were'nt meshes supposed to be released in Q1?

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: honestly i could never really figure out how most people payed for thier sims in SL

[10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Which has gradually been raised over time. On top of people just getting utterly tired of dealing with the bullshit and jumping ship

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: SL has never been cheap

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: its actually cheaper now than previously

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: isnt it?

[10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Not really

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: didnt it used to cost 2750$ to sign up?

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: or soemthign absurd

[10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Well yeah, the initial cost. BUt that's nothing compared to the tier

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: i never could figure out how anyone could make money doing that

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:43] Warin Cascabel: Tier is quite a bit cheaper for the huge landowners, which is enraging the regular landowners.

[10:43] Haku Mhia: moast ppl dont

[10:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Especially since it's pegged at $295 for a private sim now

[10:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Mainland still sits about $195 though

[10:43] Dahlia Trimble is mainland trash

[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: thats a server in the past nebadon

[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: i lknow server costs, costsed ar0ound 1000-2000$ setup

[10:43] Warin Cascabel is a hobo in SL.

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats still absurd

[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: Hobos are cool :)

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: especially considering there are 4 sims on 1 peice of hardware

[10:44] Warin Cascabel: 8 now

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: man thats some absurd profits

[10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Of course I pay about $160 a month here for a server that's probably the same power as 3 or 4 of LLs. :P

[10:44] Warin Cascabel: from an article I read

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:44] Richardus Raymaker: warin, visit babbage then :)

[10:45] Warin Cascabel: I've been to Babbage, why?

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: well the Class 5 servers were powerful machines

[10:45] Richardus Raymaker: 4 if your lucky nebadon, or 4+ if you have bad luck

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall the basic class 5 were quad xeon with 8gb ram

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: 64 bit debian

[10:45] Richardus Raymaker: 8 full sims on 1 server warin ?

[10:45] Warin Cascabel: I read an article indicating that they had doubled up their servers, now putting 2 regions per core.

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya they switched to 6 core AMD i think

[10:45] Sarah Kline: yes they do

[10:45] Dahlia Trimble: I thought they used AMD?

[10:45] Richardus Raymaker: it looks nice there warin, would be nice here to

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: they were on Intel for a while

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: now they are back on AMD 6 core cpus i think

[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: OMG, that explains the bad perfomance of everything

[10:46] Sarah Kline: i saw a site that told you who your neighboring sims where

[10:46] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. If you dedicated the whole thing to a sim. :P

[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: instead the lower the amount the increase

[10:46] OtakuMegane Desu: They may be doing 2 per core now, given the power increase compared to a few years back

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: They're pretty quiet about exactly what's running on backend though

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: Class 5 was the Core2 level Xeons

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: not i7

[10:47] Warin Cascabel: OtakuMegane: a bunch of hamsters running in wheels.

[10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:47] Deana Later: 30% fewer hamsters since the last lay offs

[10:47] WhiteStar Magic: C=64's with Serial Cables... ;)

[10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Whatever problems the sims have, is nothing compared to the asset hassles I run into when I'm on there.

[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: takes quite a few hamsters to power a Xeon

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: hi whitestar,

[10:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Even the crummy sims run nicely compared to assets

[10:48] WhiteStar Magic: \\yay// a Vic-20

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone visited SL7B yet?

[10:48] OtakuMegane Desu: One minute you can rez 200 things instantly the next you can't get a basic prim unless you wait 5 minutes

[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: not yet

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: I was actually kind of impressed with the quality of it

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: its slow as shit

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: but the sim is nicely built

[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: the whole thing is layed out really nice

[10:48] Warin Cascabel: No, I haven't.

[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: did not know sl7B is open already

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya Yesterday

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: runs all week

[10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: A lot of LL's things are nicely built but most are slow as shit too.

[10:49] WhiteStar Magic: no osg booth this yr ??

[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: then i need to wait anyway till usa sleeps. :) maby then it runs better

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: when i was there it was really slow

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: some of the sims were getting SimFPS of 4

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: PhysicsFPS of 5

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:49] Dahlia Trimble: how many avies?

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: it was crap shoot

[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: some were ok

[10:50] Warin Cascabel: ...but the PLUMAGE!

[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: at the time i was there the most i saw in any one sim was 30

[10:50] Penny Lane: I'm more interested in how Opensim is going to scale in the future, not in SL.

[10:50] OtakuMegane Desu: Well yeah, of course

[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: it was 15 or 17 sims

[10:51] WhiteStar Magic: we need some OSGF Load Tests to liven things up

[10:51] Dahlia Trimble: I'm hoping Dan Lake commits some of his magic to core

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: im sure they will

[10:51] Richardus Raymaker: i have around 25 avatars for testing. lol

[10:51] Dahlia Trimble: (speaking of scalability)

[10:51] Richardus Raymaker: full clothed

[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: there is a ton of optimizing we can do

[10:51] Warin Cascabel: What kind of magic, Dahlia?

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: the stuff they are doing with the load tests Warin

[10:52] Penny Lane: Well magic is good'n'all, but I'd prefer scalable design, not tinkering with efficiencies.

[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: his experiments with hundreds of avatars

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: alot of that is being put through analyzers and stuff

[10:52] Warin Cascabel: Oh, right - I hadn't known his name.

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: after every test i send them a series of logs the simulator has generated

[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: ya he's very analytical, but that's a good thing

[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt they are sniffing out all kinds of things

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: though last weeks test didnt go off as we hoped

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: how it goes sometimes

[10:53] Penny Lane: Not just good, but crucial. What you don't measure and analyse, you don't really know.

[10:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Efficiency and scalability go together eventually.

[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be doing more load tests soon im sure

[10:53] Dahlia Trimble: Penny, agreed, but not always easy to accomplish in a community project

[10:54] Penny Lane: Otaku: only partially. You can have a very efficient system that is utterly non-scalable, that's quite common. SL is a good example of it.

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest hitch wtih analyzing OpenSimulator

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: is the vast amount of hardware it requires to do so

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: the sciencesim loadtest is 11 servers

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: all very powerful

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: on fast pipes

[10:54] Penny Lane: Nope, scalability has nothing to do with hardware. It's about algorithms.

[10:54] Sarah Kline: what is the most agents we have had on an osg sim before it fell over

[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: they can afford the best

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean to run these analysis

[10:55] Richardus Raymaker: is it possible that a griefer can use your land owners uuid ? that sounds strange or config error.

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: to be able to run opensim through analyzers

[10:55] Dahlia Trimble: and can probably use hardware that's not available to the public

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: it requires vast amount of processing power to make the sim run and still be able to collect all this data

[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: its not realistic to run OpenSim this way really

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but its almost required to do this kind of analysis

[10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: The max actual user agents (not bots) I think was 87...unless something beat that since then

[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: Teravus has done some work improving instrumentation fairly recently

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya the most we ever got here and could still move

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: was 68

[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: well a few months back

[10:56] Sarah Kline: thx Otaku

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: it froze on 69

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but we could still log in and chat

[10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: THat was with scripts turned off and such too, though

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: up to 87

[10:56] Sarah Kline: not bad ^^

[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya but under full load we had 54 or 47 at OSG2B

[10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: I think it's been a while since we really pushed a fully-enabled region

[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: one big problem with scalability is the protocol

[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: 54 or 57*

[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: forcing the region to deliver assets to each viewer is a huge load

[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:57] WhiteStar Magic: would be interesting to see how the extra threads being available will handle it

[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: and physics too

[10:57] Penny Lane: Neb: not sure I understand why Opensim can't collect data as it runs. It costs next to nothing, as the data only goes to disk when collection buffers become full periodically.

[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: physics can probably be improved tho

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: under full load Penny

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: with 1000 avatars

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: etc..

[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: Penny it does

[10:58] Warin Cascabel: Gotta run, work. Bye, all

[10:58] Warin Cascabel is Offline

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: its an incredible amount of data

[10:58] WhiteStar Magic: Have a Good One Warin

[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: infact i gotta upgrade my bandwidth on my server

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: because 10Mb isnt enough

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: for these tests

[10:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Have better hardware to work with now than way back, so that can be more easily wqritten off the list of limiting factors

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: im gonna ugrade to 100Mb soon

[10:59] Penny Lane: Neb: even under full load. Collecting numbers takes no time (if it does then the code is wrong), and the memory used for buffers isn't a lot.

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: exactly

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: we know opensim is about as far from perfect as you can get

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: your assuming opensim is perfect

[10:59] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[10:59] Penny Lane: No no, there's no point analysing a perfect system, hehe :-)

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: it's a hodgepodge

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: in time i hope we do get there

[11:00] OtakuMegane Desu: I can offer my server for load testing once in a while. :)

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: also good profiling tools costs $$

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: but try running OpenSimulator through a memory analyzer

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: Intel can afford them

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: I cant :(

[11:01] Penny Lane gives Dahlia OS$1 ... oh, wait

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: like jetbains DotTraace

[11:01] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:01] OtakuMegane Desu: 10mb I've always figured can work fine for moderate stuff but heavier loads and traffic it would surely be an issue

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: its absordly harsh, i couldnt even log into my own sim locally with it running

[11:01] Dahlia Trimble: well profiling isnt one of my better skills, best to give the tools to another dev

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya i think alot of good data is coming out of the Intel testing

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: im positive it will all feed back into core at some point

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: once they are happy with the results

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: last weeks test was actualyl a step back

[11:02] Penny Lane: Does Dan have his own team, or is part of another?

[11:02] Dahlia Trimble: hope so, he's done a few nice commits in the past

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: so im sure there is a few more rounds of testing before we see anything back

[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: I think he works for Mic

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: he works iwth Mic Bowman

[11:03] Penny Lane: kk

[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: and he has commit access to our master repo

[11:03] Penny Lane: Dan gave a very nice presentation at an IBM conference a few months ago, I enjoyed that. Showed off his scaling work.

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I will see what i can find out from Dan, im sure he'll be contacting me soon anyway for more testing

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: nice Penny ya dan is cool for sure, he has shown interest in scalability and physics

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt we'll see alot more good stuff come out of that group

[11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Physics is good.

[11:05] Dahlia Trimble: and he's smart

[11:05] Dahlia Trimble: and skilled

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh :)

[11:05] Penny Lane: Note that scaling and scalability are two different things. You can scale an implementation a bit by tinkering with it to make it more efficient, but to make it more scalable you have to change algorithms. They're not directly related.

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: I think thats one of the requirments Intel has on the job application.. hehe

[11:06] Penny Lane: Good req, hehe

[11:06] Dahlia Trimble: or in this case, the protocol also

[11:06] Penny Lane: Yep, the protocol is key. Which is why Opensim needs to get off LL viewers to become scalable, because protocols have to change.

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe, there is still no gaurantee that new protocols would be any better

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: really depends whos writing the code i guess

[11:08] Penny Lane: You design them to be better. It's maths :-)

[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: then make a new protocol

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: whoes maintaining it

[11:08] Region Showcase Kiosk: Received 24 regions from database.

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its not always good to try to keep re-inventing the wheel either

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we can probably lend to making the protocol better overall

[11:09] Dahlia Trimble: time for me to turn into a large yellow squash... bye all :)

[11:09] Penny Lane: See you Dahlia :-)

[11:09] Sarah Kline: byes

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: kk Dahlia, ya these hours blow by so fast anymore

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, lengthy phone calls are never fun

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming

[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia

[11:09] Dahlia Trimble is Offline

[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: i know i readed in the past something about new http protocol. that would be much faster and betetr for this days internet.

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the stress of not worrying if the meeting would make the whole hour though is pretty much gone

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: that makes for much more relaxing meetings that just fly by now

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: huh, time for a massive refator then!

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: refactor, even

[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: hehe

[11:10] Penny Lane: Haha