Chat log from the meeting on 2017-08-01

[11:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ubit came to the Kitely meeting Sunday. Answered a bunch of questions. [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: about mesh [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I get there is a transcript? [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: guess [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Probably -- I don't have one -- You want one? [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'd take a look at it if it was published but no worries [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: mesh has been a hot topic the last week or two [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has [11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will try to get one if anybody wants [11:05] Sheera Khan: I would like one too ;-) [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes -- I am still trying to get an article. [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The main thing now is to ascertain people that Bulletsim is the default on what will be the next release [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are tossing copies of it around might as well toss me one too. [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that ubODE is optional [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Did any of you log in to Sansar yet? [11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: will try to get chat log an will pass it around [11:07] Arielle Popstar: i did [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Sansar? Was that the name of SL2? [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I didn't - no viewer for me [11:07] Arielle Popstar: yes Selby [11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I see articles -- Fred did [11:07] George Equus: Very slow rez tonight... [11:07] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: no the current viewer is Windows only :_( [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, oh. If the only viewer is just for Windows that counts me out too unless I use my laptop. I don't like using the laptop to go in to a grid. It tends to be hard on a machine. [11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Danko Whitfield blogged about visit [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby was saying you had attended the meeting in Kitely and answered questions about mesh. [11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ubit -- thank for visiting the Kitely meeting Sunday -- very useful. Cleared up things for people [11:13] Ubit Umarov: yes my pleasure to be there [11:13] Arielle Popstar: oh  Core  PR [11:14] Arielle Popstar: and Melanie  and Marcus  interview [11:14] Arielle Popstar: getting the word  out [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we get too deep in to todays discussions I will make an announcement. [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know how many of you noticed but the osgrid welcome message is announcing that OSG10B is on this weekend. [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: That is the 10th birthday celebrations for this grid. [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Should be a number of events for people to attend and special displays to check out. I don't have any other details. [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: If I can get a hold of nebadon I'll see if he has any other information. If not, check the osgrid website for details. [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 10 years - soon getting into the teens! [11:18] Ubit Umarov: you can find osg10b regions on map also [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Congratulation!! [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My real OSG avatar is about 8 1/2 years [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ubit -- is this advice correct? For existing objects not working right, make them phantom and put invisible prims where collisions are needed For new objects imported, Relevant advice from Collada wiki. http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Collada_Mesh As of begin of February 2013, when uploading a mesh, do not use steps 2 and 3 in the "physics" tab of the mesh upload panel because it is breaking physics so if using them, your object will be as phantom and you will see a "[MESH]: No recognized physics mesh found in mesh asset....." in the simulator console. [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm about the same age here, Gavin. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: collada reference is not usefull [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My first inventory was uploaded with SI those first days... just to get me clothed. [11:20] dj phil: LOD from file is on step 2 Selby ... and can be used [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, why not? The collada format is still what is used for upload. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: unless you are a creator debugging collada itself [11:21] Ubit Umarov: viewers do parse it.. end result has nothing to do with collada [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked the wiki page. It just says to skip step 2 (on the physics tab) in the troubleshooting section. [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: That wiki page needs an overhaul. [11:21] Ubit Umarov: think i already told this to you some 3 times already andrew :p [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I need instructions on correct uploading for creators -- [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, the end result has nothing to do with Collada but it is the format used for files uploaded. [11:23] Ubit Umarov: no meshs are more viewer upload settings.. in world use, and creation tools to achive that [11:24] dj phil: LOD from file can be used Andrew (and it is step 2). So do not say do not use step 2 but be more accurate [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, If you don't want the Collada references on that wiki page you can update it. :) [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: upload instructions are pretty simple: make mesh + physics model. On upload use both and don't do analysis [11:24] dj phil: Heheh Ubit is a Wiki Lover :) [11:24] Ubit Umarov: me updatind wiki with my excelent en ? :P [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil, I'm not the one saying skip step 2. Ubit, and Bully(?) were talking about that on IRC the other day. [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or you can use the lower LODs, but still don't do analysis [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Step 2 is the one about analying the file. [11:25] Arielle Popstar: oh i thought the physics  model  was  in how  you configured the   physics  tab [11:25] Arielle Popstar: so it is a  seperate  file [11:25] dj phil: Gavin Effectively the button "Analysis" is mainly not to be used (on step 2) [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a separate dae file containing the low resolution collision model [11:25] Ubit Umarov: really andrew, you still don't understand that, and this is going to be another meeting about meshes ?? [11:25] Arielle Popstar: Analyze is for Havok only [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Using the original file as the physics mesh is also not the best idea. It can result in a heavy burden on the viewer as it would have way more triangles than needed for physics. [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we should hide it in the UI in the viewers [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when logged into OpenSim [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It depends Andrew [11:26] Arielle Popstar: well it is a  complicated   topic [11:26] dj phil: Yes Arielle, is a separate file [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have super simple models, you can use the original file [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, if you want people to stop talking about mesh then you need to update the wiki page or find someone who knows the proper details who can update that page with the correct information. [11:27] Arielle Popstar: would be  nice if there  was a  flow chart   graphically  reperesenting the  steps  between the  viewer  and the  sim and database [11:27] dj phil: Yes you can use the original but you need to remove all materials from this file [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why would you need that Arielle? [11:28] Arielle Popstar: because i am  a  visual  person [11:28] dj phil: Arielle, i agree with you, pictures speaks more than words [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the users what happens inside the server is completely irrelevant [11:28] Arielle Popstar: it is how  i learn and  retain things [11:28] Arielle Popstar: when i can picture it [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they need to know how to make the mesh and physics model and get it uploaded [11:28] Arielle Popstar flüstert: thats why  i am in virtual worlds  :) [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Reason for talking is conflicting advice [11:30] Arielle Popstar: i think though the main question for me is: [11:30] Arielle Popstar: will Bullet  continue  to be  functional  as  it was  with mesh in .8.2.1 [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly identical [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with a couple bug fixes added [11:31] Arielle Popstar: so the  ability  of  bullet  to read  the visual model  to ascertain  the  physic  will not be broken? [11:31] dj phil: Thanks for the work on autobackup. Now in gives information (debug) on the "defective" files. This is really very useful for correcting defective mesh problems among others ... So thank you Ubit! [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not at all [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all my meshes on 0.9.1 dev work exactly the same with bullet as it did on 0.8.2 [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with ubODE they don't necessarily [11:32] Arielle Popstar: well i just wondered  fom Mels  interview [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TBH Mel was very arrogant there [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no repsect for peoples creations [11:33] Arielle Popstar: no [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but she did stress one thing; Bullet is the default on the upcoming release [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so thing should work the same [11:34] Arielle Popstar: but there is hope  she will find  the app she wrote  which can  convert the  mesh files  from the database  to an  object file  so it can be reuploaded [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, that hasn't changed, Gavin. [11:35] Arielle Popstar: though i sort of thought viewers  could do that already [11:35] Ubit Umarov: actually Marcus was very clear on the meshes issue [11:35] Ubit Umarov: on that interview [11:35] Arielle Popstar: clear but  imo incorrect that  it  is the  uploaders  fault [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: She was talking about exporting the mesh from a viewer to OBJ or DAE and re-uploading [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is doable if you don't have the original [11:36] Arielle Popstar: as it  is the  only  way  mesh could be uploaded in past [11:36] Ubit Umarov: it was uploaders fault and only uploaders fault [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is you get an often badly triangulated mesh [11:36] dj phil: Reupload have problem Gavin ? [11:36] Arielle Popstar: no, bullet reads  the   viewable  model  by default   instead  of any   physics  file [11:37] Ubit Umarov: NO [11:37] Arielle Popstar: this was  confirmed  by a  couple of testers [11:37] dj phil: i don't have problem with that ... [11:37] Ubit Umarov: bullet will read the physics mesh if is there [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no problem reuploading, but you risk getting a mesh back that is tringulated twice [11:37] Ubit Umarov: only if it missing it will look for a LOD [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and you still need to make a physics model for it [11:38] dj phil: ha oki Gavin :p [11:38] Ubit Umarov: hmm what are you talking about gavin ?? [11:38] Arielle Popstar: again, conflicting information [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and OBJ or DAE export from the viewer does not preserve the physics mesh [11:38] Ubit Umarov: triangulated twice? what are you talking about ? [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it only gives you the mesh itself [11:38] Ubit Umarov: ahh export issues? [11:38] dj phil: Yep, i know that Gav (just forget lol) [11:39] dj phil: ty for remembering [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you export a mesh, Ubit, you get a tringulated model, not quads [11:39] dj phil: Hehe ubit like triangles too [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: un re-upload you (particularly if you had it in the modeller) risk it gets trinagulated again on upload [11:39] dj phil: He say to me, work in blender with triangles grrrrr! [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tris in any modeler is a nightmare [11:40] dj phil: We work with triangles ??? Seriously !!! [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Many 3D programs use triangular meshes. I know Blender can use quads but when it exports the model as dae I think it uses triangles. [11:41] dj phil: That different Andrew [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Blender is not state of the art Andrew [11:41] Ubit Umarov: viewers do not work with quads ever [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no renderers do [11:41] dj phil: And Tri and Quad are always an options [11:41] Ubit Umarov: not on uploaded meshs [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why they get trinagulated on upload [11:42] Ubit Umarov: meshes.. they are tris only [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the prims are tris too at render time [11:42] dj phil: You can triangulate just before import Ubit ... if you say viewer don't like quad [11:42] Ubit Umarov: and ppl should remove quads on the 3d tool [11:42] dj phil: But viewer don't convert quad to tri propely ? [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do not triangulate before upload or you risk double triangulation [11:43] dj phil: ouch ! [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not the viewer that converts [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that happens server side [11:43] dj phil: i d'ont do, ouf :) [11:43] Ubit Umarov: NO [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in SL it does [11:43] Ubit Umarov: server do not SEE QUADS [11:43] Ubit Umarov: NO [11:44] Ubit Umarov: sl mesh format has NO QUADS [11:44] dj phil: i mean viewer convertion Ubit [11:44] Ubit Umarov: gavin said servers... [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, ubit, it gets triangulated on upload, stored as that and the render can only use tris [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why you get it back as tris on export [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or copybotting [11:45] dj phil: Quad is only for modler's/builder's not for virtual words [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so all the copybotted meshes out there are in tris [11:46] dj phil: And not the reverse ^^ [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and when people reupload it often doubles the tris [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: dj phil, That also depends on the modelling program being used. [11:46] Arielle Popstar: bottom line  question on the difference between bullet  and  ubODE mesh physics. How much testing has there been for the performance  hit  if using  unoptimized  meshes  on a  bullet  sim vs  a  ubODE  one? Are we  talking  a significant  difference  in performance  for the sim? [11:46] dj phil: Most common programs [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my personal experience is that ubODE use 10-15% more CPU than bullet for the same content [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: others will see different results I am sure [11:48] Ubit Umarov: yes i m pretty sure they see different :p [11:48] dj phil: ^^ [11:48] dj phil: really ? [11:49] Arielle Popstar: just curious Ubit....can ubODe be made  to use  the physics from the  viewable model  like  bullet  can? [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: earlier it was about 50% more, but it has gotten very much better [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I only see about a 2-5% increase in cpu [11:50] Ubit Umarov: using visual mesh breaks proper use of physics shape type later [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle's question makes me remember that a wiki page about handling mesh also needs a section about any differences in behaviour between BS and ubODE. [11:50] dj phil: afk 15' [11:50] Arielle Popstar: yes but  i am wondering  if this comes  to a  theoretical issue  or  a practical one [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think mine uses less due to the fact I am using ubODE libs compiled with newer Glibc and not the old stuff for "compatibility" with older linux distros [11:51] Ubit Umarov: we keep 3 engines for reasons... [11:51] Ubit Umarov: one just for old regions [11:52] Ubit Umarov: 2 bc one may be a better option on some regions, not on others [11:52] Ubit Umarov: just at this point bullet is starting to accumulate issues [11:52] Ubit Umarov: like also broken handling of physics shape type [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: performance has to do with version of mono, how it is compiled, how the meshes in the scene are put together and how the physics models were made / generated. [11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes and no word  from Mr Blue on fixes? [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if I see 10-15% difference that is perfectly acceptable [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen anything from misterblue in what seems like a couple of weeks. [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: He said he had another project to finish [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one he got paid for I think [11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I am compiling with mono 5.2 and it has gotten lower since then .. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: For some other non-mesh related items of this past week, Ubit has made some other updates to ubODE. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Another recent change has been work to allow use of buying land passes. [11:55] Arielle Popstar: we beat that mesh pony to death for this week :) [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is that complete, or will there be more commits on the passes? [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Been using the updated ODE lib for a while now .. works fine [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, indeed. One day the mesh info will get written down and Ubit will just have to point people to it instead of having to answer the same questions over again. [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and over and over and over and over [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Buying land passes is something that will be useful for grids with an economy that may want to use it for events, such as a fund raiser. [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Are the permission changes deployed to OSG? [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I don't know. That would be a qustion for nebadon or dan. I don't know when osg was last updated. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: OSG does not use the same version everywhere [11:57] Ubit Umarov: lbsa is on recent one [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but these changes do affect the core servers, yeah? [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: No. You can check the versions being used on the Plaza's. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: others.. well ask osg admin [11:58] Arielle Popstar: this is on a paela revision? [11:58] Ubit Umarov: also grid part does not use core code [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle,paela?? [11:58] Arielle Popstar: oh [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I wondered, because Melanie said they all passed her unit testing, but that is not the same as being tested for prod [11:58] Ubit Umarov: so on some aspects osgrid is not a good test platform [11:59] Arielle Popstar: Rev Paela OpenSim 4.0.1 Dev      (Unix/Mono) [11:59] Ubit Umarov: on others its ok.. like lbsa on almost top of dev [11:59] Ubit Umarov: this is a private region [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, diva had been writing some testing for perms. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: who knows what it is running [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think the work was complete. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right, so it is not very well tested [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: 4.01?? That isn't a proper version number for Open Simulator. [12:00] Arielle Popstar: but it works  better  for you  here then  wright plaza still  Ubit? [12:00] Ubit Umarov: no sense on having meetings on heavy loaded regions [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit often complained of lag at WP. I can't say I often noticed any. [12:01] Arielle Popstar: i noticed it when i was  on dsl [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: If there was lag it was usually a sign that the region needed a restart. [12:01] Ubit Umarov: possible opensim should have its own test platform.. [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it's got a lot of content that region... [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: It certainly does [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit [12:01] Ubit Umarov: but for now, having a machine got git and site seems good enough [12:02] Ubit Umarov: bc as i said, osg is no longer a good test platform [12:02] Arielle Popstar: is the current recommended  mono  distro  the one that has  issues with reverse dns? [12:02] Ubit Umarov: ( it also is a full operational grid ) [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have the latest dev without the permission code in testing on 47 regions over 3 simulators [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs very stable [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: There is the OSCC regions that have been used in the past for load testing but they don't get a lot of use outside the conference. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: or during actual load testing events. [12:03] Ubit Umarov: but having lbsa and some regions on top of dev code is good [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: my entire grid runs on master ... Don't really have issues I can blame on the master code, do blame Ubit once in a while though .. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: also some of the ppl that likes to test master is also here at osg [12:04] Arielle Popstar: heh we  all do :) [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I may be able to get a grid on IMA  for testing -- Anyonw who needs, talk to me. [12:05] Arielle Popstar: that  sort  of  testing  isnt  a  hour  or  2  thing [12:05] Ubit Umarov: but about the permissions.. most osg runned regions are using the new code [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is a Sandbox region anyone can use on xmir that is more or less on dev at any time [12:05] Arielle Popstar: but day  to day  usage [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I tend to keep a region up and running named UbrokeIT [12:05] Ubit Umarov: and so far.. no reports about them on mantis [12:05] Arielle Popstar: lolol [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid.xmir.org:8002:Sandbox is on dev with bullet [12:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA should be able to provide any amount of time -- unlimited [12:06] Ubit Umarov: well andrew did not mentioned a code change in last days [12:06] Ubit Umarov: on creation of new wearables [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: New wearables? No, I missed that one. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: that is actually a permissions issue.. just on independent section [12:07] Ubit Umarov: creating a wearable or animation set, you need full rights on the assets used. [12:08] Arielle Popstar: huh? [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which commit was that Ubit? [12:08] Ubit Umarov: till recent changes, not having them whould result on a broken wearable with no warning [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, right. That commit. It was related to mantis 8219. [12:08] Ubit Umarov: now, you should get a message, and no upload at all [12:09] Arielle Popstar: so you cant use  a  no modify  texture  on a wearable? [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this one: partial mantis 8219; on creating or updating items (animationsets, wearables) that reference assets, [12:09] Arielle Popstar: or no transfer? [12:09] Ubit Umarov: textures u need transfer, copy and mod [12:10] Arielle Popstar: thats a pain [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In SL you can make skins with only copy textures [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise no skin creator would even dream of creating the textures [12:10] Ubit Umarov: thats lindens issue [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I make skins [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the textures are NOT distributed full perm [12:11] Arielle Popstar: yeah [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ever [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you make a full perm kit [12:11] Ubit Umarov: if lindens allows ppl to sell things made from non copy no transfer items.. that is their problem [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you can set the perms after you make them and even give the textures no copy, [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: again Ubit, total disrespect for creators [12:12] Arielle Popstar: what about all the textures i have already  without  full perms? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: toss out\? [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: clothing, wearables are NOT distributed with full perm textures [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ever [12:12] Ubit Umarov: yes lindens do that occasionaly [12:12] Ubit Umarov: forget textures creators rights [12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ^^ [12:13] Ubit Umarov: they have that on a few other things also [12:13] Ubit Umarov: but thats their thing.. sure they have their reasons [12:13] Arielle Popstar: sl compatibility [12:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If someone gives you a texture that is NO COPY and you can make skins/clothing with it and sell it, or give it away that is totally disregarding the texture creators rights [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, how is someone like Gavin affected if they are the original creator of a skin and the textures for it with the texture not having full perms? [12:14] Arielle Popstar: if they give it to you no modify then should be able to [12:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or make 47 shirts with a single no copy texture, isn't that a problem for someone? [12:14] Arielle Popstar: no mod  sjhould  still be allowed [12:15] Ubit Umarov: well that rule is up on 0.9 since merge [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the way skins are usually distributed is copy only [12:15] Arielle Popstar: and no transfer  if  intended  as  no transfer   for the actual   texture  but not products  made with it [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some may be distributed mod copy [12:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no copy should mean no copy, how is it no copy if I make 100 pieces of clothing with it? [12:15] Ubit Umarov: the change is that now it will cause the creation of a broken asset that the creator whould even have trouble detect [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but usually not [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the system should respect the permissions set by the creator of the skin [12:16] Ubit Umarov: that is funny arielle :) [12:16] Arielle Popstar: think that was  slipped  in then  without  the knowledge of  most people [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the creator does of course have the full permissions, but that is changed on distribution to others [12:18] Ubit Umarov: well this was a need protection for textures creators, or animations [12:18] Arielle Popstar: pfft [12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: So you want to be able to take a texture that you have no copy/no mod/no transfer and be able to make something with it and then sell/distribute it arielle?  Even though the original creator of the texture intended it to not be re-distributed ??  Or did I read that wrong? [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: say you have a skin texture that is copy only [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Is that change going to prevent someone from selling a skin (for example) using a texture that doesn't have full perms? [12:19] Arielle Popstar: if the   creator  intended the texture  to be  used  in  clothing to be sold  but wants it  no mod, then that wont  work here [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that you go from a creator [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you should be able to make new wearables with it [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but not transfer it to others [12:19] Ubit Umarov: it is on asset/item upload [12:20] Arielle Popstar: from hardrive? [12:20] Ubit Umarov: no wearable upload after editing appearance for example [12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If I buy a texture set that is no mod, copy, no transfer from Kitely market, I shall be able to make wearables for my use with the textures [12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same with animations [12:22] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: use in my personal creations [12:22] Ubit Umarov: then why do you buy it like that in first place? [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to use in my own outfits or personal use creations [12:22] Ubit Umarov: to you in creations you need full rights things.. thats the purpose of the all permissions code [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: my goodness Ubit [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have you ever been in SL and used stuff there [12:23] Arielle Popstar: permission code  then needs  to be  expanded  to allow  for dev  kits [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are millions of creations like that [12:23] Ubit Umarov: no.. dev kits need to be provided with proper perms [12:23] Ubit Umarov: same issue as meshes.. [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [12:23] Ubit Umarov: ppl doing it wrong [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I'll give you an example [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: door scripts [12:23] Arielle Popstar: lolz [12:24] Arielle Popstar: heard that before [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a creator has made a business creating sophisticated door scripts [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sell them no mod, copy, no transfer [12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm really split on this, I can see both sides, but with all the people screaming about more permissions to protect creators, you can't really have it both ways .. [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning they can be used in all the builds of the buyer [12:24] Arielle Popstar: S/L does  it that way for a reason [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the buyer cannot see the code [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or cannot resell the script [12:25] Arielle Popstar: 3 people  are  screaming to protect the creators [12:26] Arielle Popstar: oh and core [12:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm not talking about THOSE people Arielle [12:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: people in general for a long time have complained that Opensim is the "Wild West" as far as permissions go [12:27] Arielle Popstar: it was  because  perms  were  messed  up [12:27] Arielle Popstar: not that the idea  behind them was  wrong [12:27] Ubit Umarov: well there still is GOD mode.. so.. well still is [12:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: And they didn't get fixed the way you like them .. [12:28] Arielle Popstar: pass a  full perm  to another  and  code  would  make  it no perms [12:28] Arielle Popstar: thats  what the  prob  was before [12:28] Arielle Popstar: there was  no  consistency [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm wondering whether Ubit is saying dev kits should always be full perm. I wonder what impact the code change is going to have on those people who bought texture packs for use in their creations where those packs may have no mod textures. [12:28] Ubit Umarov: well you should keep in mind that perms are tricky [12:28] Arielle Popstar: get on the HG  and  it  was  a real mess [12:28] Ubit Umarov: some cases not obvious [12:29] Arielle Popstar: whats tricky is the  dev's  implementation of it [12:29] Ubit Umarov: and NEVER changed them on inventory [12:29] Ubit Umarov: or avoid that [12:29] Arielle Popstar: this is  above and beyond  what s/l  does [12:29] Ubit Umarov: ( this is actually on SL wiki now ) [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, and Mel often says she is the only one who knows perms. [12:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If you have no problems distributing things the original creator intended to not be redistributed, just god mode them, then it is your choice, not opensimulators. [12:30] Arielle Popstar: and she  comes  from a closed  grid that  was   all for creators  not end  users [12:30] Arielle Popstar: it is now dead [12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, if the original creator doesn't want their items redistributed they should be no trans [12:31] Ubit Umarov: permissions as rights protection can only work on closed grids [12:32] Arielle Popstar: dev kits  or things  intended  for  redistribution  but  with no mod   are legitimate  but  are  now broken  under this system [12:32] Ubit Umarov: but talking about creators protection that should mean all not just a few [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this commit can't stand [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, that is the way it sounds to me. [12:33] Ubit Umarov: if some dev kits are not possible to make.. well 2 bad [12:33] Arielle Popstar: lol ubit [12:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes Andrew, I guess the real question here is, "What does No COPY mean?", is it literal meaning you can't copy it at all , even to use on multiple items, or does it mean the "asset" is no copy , but can be attached to multiple items [12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no creator will approach a grid with such settings [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Has Ubit been hanging around Mel too much? ;) [12:33] Arielle Popstar: talk No Mod Bill [12:33] Ubit Umarov: assets have no rights [12:33] Arielle Popstar: you keep slipping to No Copy [12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no copy means you can only use it once [12:33] Ubit Umarov: inventory items do [12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it also is no copy [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm also wondering what impact it will have on the use of texture viewers. [12:34] Ubit Umarov: ) above when i said assets i was meaning their inventory items ) [12:34] Ubit Umarov: Andrew stop doing a mess of things :p [12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (for the record I am fine with the no mod thing being used on multiple items) [12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I agree that if it is simply "No Mod" it could be used on multiple items and even redistributed if it also had C/T perms .. [12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, what mess? I make texture viewers. I've had problems in the past where perms on a texture would prevent it from being shown in a viewer. [12:36] dj phil: No cop / mod / trans a on commercial consonance. I hate that! This often hampers the development for this reason [12:36] Ubit Umarov: and you spoke about texture viewers ?? [12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as a creator I see little to no reason why an item should be distributed no mod no copy [12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is very restrictive [12:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well you don't want scripts always being Mod [12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but being No mod and no copy kind of silly [12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but they should then be copy only [12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no mod, copy, no transfer [12:37] Arielle Popstar: but we arent talking scripts [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: does not matter in that respect Arielle, perms are perms' [12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, it is restrictive but there are use cases for no mod and no copy on an item. [12:37] Ubit Umarov: thats a chain of rights restriction.. creator has the higher options choice [12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are Andrew, but not many [12:38] Ubit Umarov: each sucessive owner can restrict more.. [12:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Is it enough andrew to warrant the whole permissions system bowing to it? [12:39] Ubit Umarov: but if i upload a texture and give it away with no rights i do not want it beeing sold on a shirt [12:39] Ubit Umarov: do i ? [12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: demos are often no mod, no copy [12:39] Ubit Umarov: i really don't understand some discussions.. [12:39] Arielle Popstar: if you  upload it  not  wanting  it  modded  but  copied and transfer  for resale? [12:39] Ubit Umarov: whatever [12:40] Ubit Umarov: there are way to make packs [12:40] Ubit Umarov: so restrictions only apply after next owner [12:41] Ubit Umarov: just not that imediat.. and possible did not work before.. no idea [12:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: This change does not affect things that you totally create with your own textures [12:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If you uploaded the textures, there is no change to the behavior, only if previous perms were set on them [12:41] Arielle Popstar: what about textures  i have that are  copy transfer No Mod [12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Ubit, but there are so called business kits where the content is set to no mod, copy, transfer with the intention the buyer repackage it for sale [12:42] Arielle Popstar: exactly [12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you then would typically set the permission of the end product to be copy only [12:42] Arielle Popstar: should be  painfully obvious  this will be broken [12:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Soooo you want the perms to protect you making freebies, or multiple copies but not protect the person who made them originally? I know that is not the point but that is what it sounds like [12:43] Arielle Popstar: you arent getting it  Bill [12:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: No I totally get it .. LOL and that is quite funny [12:44] Ubit Umarov: well permissions are tricky [12:44] Ubit Umarov: we did ask people to test them [12:44] Ubit Umarov: and had no answers [12:44] Arielle Popstar: i know what you think  but   why dont  you take  a  no mod  copy  transfer   texture   and  apply  it to a  product and  put it for sale [12:44] Arielle Popstar: which is your  right [12:44] Ubit Umarov: so they must be right :p [12:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You want to be able to use no copy, no mod, items to make items to distribute, [12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people are cautious to test it if it can screw up their content [12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you said you tested it Ubit and it got broken [12:45] Arielle Popstar: thats NOT what i said  Bill [12:45] Arielle Popstar: you are not getting it [12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: she did not say that Bill [12:45] Ubit Umarov: i said it got broken? [12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I agree, you don't get it [12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: The change was only pushed on Friday so not a lot of people would have been doing testing over the weekend. [12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you did Ubit [12:46] Ubit Umarov: no i said i fixed a case where wearables and animation sets where getting broken without warning [12:46] Ubit Umarov: and not there is a warn [12:46] Ubit Umarov: and now [12:46] Ubit Umarov: no change on the rule [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this was afew weeks back [12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway [12:47] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8219 [12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you need to understand how permissions are used in SL to make busines [12:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: lol [12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and replicate that here if you want any hope of developing an economy in OpenSim [12:48] Ubit Umarov: well this is not as SL is now [12:48] Ubit Umarov: bc we really dont' follow sl on all things [12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: permissions must be like SL is now [12:48] Ubit Umarov: no [12:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes they must end of discussion [12:49] Arielle Popstar: yes because there is  a reason they are like that [12:50] dj phil: Will it pay to use opensim soon? [12:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: When an object is next owner no-modify, that permissions setting is interpreted as 'no one can create derivative works.' [12:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is from the SL wiki [12:50] Ubit Umarov: and there are reasons why opensim should not do the same ( bugs aside ) [12:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so if you buy a texture from a creator, you are the next owner [12:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of the item itself [12:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: BUT you can use it as a component in derivative work [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that is the discussion is all about [12:51] Ubit Umarov: another thing i almost changed was groups owned permissions [12:51] Ubit Umarov: well and think i did [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: group permissions is a completely different discussion [12:52] Ubit Umarov: at this point discussion was "permissions must be as SL" [12:52] Ubit Umarov: and NO [12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: group permissions must be like in SL [12:53] Arielle Popstar: i guess the  idea  that  Opensim is a PLATFORM  is no longer relevant [12:53] Ubit Umarov: again NO [12:53] Arielle Popstar: it is now  the baby of  commercially oriented   enterprises [12:53] Ubit Umarov: i could change a lot more if we did had proper viewers :p [12:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with that attitude Ubit you will see a MAJOR fork of the code for use by anyone who wants to preserve the rights of creators [12:53] Arielle Popstar: but with an awkward  slant  on security [12:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer implement permissions like they are in SL [12:54] Ubit Umarov: that depends on the viewer you are talking about [12:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that has worked to create and support an economy with tens of millions of dollars every eyar [12:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the broken system in opensim it has created a cesspool of copied and stolen items [12:55] Ubit Umarov: and you are the one telling the changes are not to protect creators [12:55] Ubit Umarov: and you are WRONG [12:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not wrong [12:55] Ubit Umarov: changes if any are to protect creators on opensim enviroment [12:55] Ubit Umarov: that is NOT SL environment [12:55] Arielle Popstar: it doesnt  protect creators  but  does  affect their ability to  create [12:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and distribute and get paid if they want to [12:56] Ubit Umarov: we did arrive here exactly on a such a case : protection of texture creators [12:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It does not affect their ability to create, if they are truly creating, and not using parts of other people things .. Nothing stops you from creating or uploading your own textures .. [12:56] Arielle Popstar: the degree of  security  should  be left to individual  grids  anyway [12:56] Ubit Umarov: even meshes issue is prectection of creators [12:56] Arielle Popstar: leave opensim as a platform [12:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you don't understand how creations are used and how it drives an economy [12:56] Arielle Popstar: without getting  into judge jury [12:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and you can still god it, if you want to bypass the permissions anyway [12:57] Ubit Umarov: so no nonsense that we are not worried with creators [12:57] Ubit Umarov: and that has no relation to follow or not follow SL 100% [12:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you are a serious grid owner you don't God stuff [12:57] Arielle Popstar: until they get it into their  heads  to remove access to god  mode [12:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for your own consumption [12:57] Arielle Popstar: they have already discussed it [12:58] Arielle Popstar: and  lot of  people  on grids  dont  have  god mode available [12:58] Ubit Umarov: the object deed to group is a thing i should had changed from SL [12:59] Ubit Umarov: bc 99% of the time, doing that is losing the damm thing [12:59] Ubit Umarov: just to give another example [13:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway, enough of this nonsense [13:00] dj phil: Again it is money that is the nerve of war and the same in the free virtual worlds! Pfff pffff pfff [13:01] Arielle Popstar: anymore on  a  release? [13:01] Arielle Popstar: or postponed indefinitely? [13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: If a texture maker wants to sell a pack of textures to someone so they can use those textures to make and sell items what perms must the texture maker put on the textures to allow the buyer to sell items with the purchased textures? [13:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, no real movement on that yet. [13:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The person who has handled making the releases in the past isn't available at the moment so that has put a release on a temporary hold. [13:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: These perm changes only affected wearables, like shirts and things, not prim or mesh based items right Ubit .. [13:04] Arielle Popstar: ok Andrew [13:04] Arielle Popstar: shouldnt be  a diff  Bill if  it is  somehow  protecting the creator rights [13:04] Ubit Umarov: yes those where or the other permissions changes [13:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so prim based items were uneffected, such as doors houses , tables, mesh clothing, [13:05] Ubit Umarov: those are on the JAN or so changes [13:05] Arielle Popstar: unless they have textures  on them  i would assume [13:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: these recent changes were ONLY fore wearables [13:06] Ubit Umarov: i was clear telling this this last changes where on wearables and animation sets [13:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: System type clothing, animations [13:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes [13:06] Arielle Popstar: so it  is  already  in place  for  prim  type objects? [13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Has no effect on prim/mesh based builds [13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Perms have not changed on those since January [13:07] Arielle Popstar: is there  any  commercial  grids  on .9? [13:07] Andrew Hellershanks: yes [13:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so if you have not noticed your stuff being "broken" in 6 months I doubt it will [13:07] Arielle Popstar: one that sells content? [13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have people who sell content on my grid [13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: one sells on kitely [13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: she has had no issues [13:08] Andrew Hellershanks: When was Kitely last updated? [13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: she builds on my grid then takes it to kitely [13:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: kitely runs a version of .8x [13:08] Arielle Popstar: kitely  is  still on .8.2 [13:08] Arielle Popstar: with their own mods [13:09] Ubit Umarov: on that kitely is on its own fork i guess [13:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but she has given me copies of some of the things she sells, and the perms work fine [13:09] Ubit Umarov: but thats kitely admin issue [13:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: again if you have not noticed it being "broken" in 6 months, I doubt you need it anyway ... [13:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or it is just not broken [13:11] Arielle Popstar: I dont create for  market [13:11] Arielle Popstar: but lots  do [13:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But it if they were broken you would see it in freebies too, not just stuff that is sold [13:12] Arielle Popstar: i am not the average user [13:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: sold or free, perms still apply [13:12] Arielle Popstar: if it  doesnt  work one  way, i try another [13:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is for sure .. [13:12] Arielle Popstar: as do  you