Chat log from the meeting on 2017-04-11

[10:58] Arielle Popstar: was hoping  Ubit  might have  but not seen him this  morning [10:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Did you ask Ubit for a new location maybe? [10:59] Arielle Popstar: it was  talked about  but  nothing  confirmed [10:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't see Ubit online [10:59] Arielle Popstar: he did make it here for the osgrid town meeting [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: I just reminded people on the irc dev channel about the meeting. [11:00] Arielle Popstar: irc very chatty  lately? [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Not paricularly. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to get someone to fill in for me for the meetings I was fairly certain I would miss but neither person turned up to run them from what I read in the meeting transcripts. [11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: We found things to talk about. :) [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Re: the Testing project, IMA is quite intereste in setting up a working group in cooperation with the Devs [11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Devs should not have to do their own testing [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I have done very little OS related stuff in the last month (approximately) [11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Understand [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Do any IMA member have an IRC presence on Freenode? [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: It is really hard typing things today. I try and fix a typo and it doesn't want to change what I entered. :P [11:09] Arielle Popstar: no idea [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It might just be a form of chat lag. [11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: I have a feeling that the IRC channels are the best way to start, and that IMA should reach out with their offer to help test there. [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't know, Marcus [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will ask [11:10] Arielle Popstar: are Mel and Diva present  on irc? [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably. [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If I don't get too many other distractions today I will be the final tests on the changes I made to the OpenSimSearch and OpenSimProfile modules. [11:10] Arielle Popstar: Andrew and Ubit are accessable elsewhere [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: They're at least lurking on the dev channel pretty much 24/7 [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I'm not in IRC 24/7. If my computer is not sleeping I have it connected to the IRC channel. [11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Asking Steve -- he may be availavble [11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: I meant Mel mostly. :) [11:12] Arielle Popstar: i think part of the question  might be in what way the IMA  may be  a better testing  environment then Osgrid itself [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, Melanie is connected 24/7 AFAIK. I haven't seen Diva online for a while. [11:13] Arielle Popstar: heard  she is  busy on another project [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: She's there now, but wether she's paying attention at anty given time is always an open question. [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle: Mel or Diva? [11:14] Arielle Popstar: Diva [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Diva has several pots on the stove. ;) [11:14] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... in my case I'd need a bigger stove. :) [11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe. Well, it's just that she's an academic, so there's a lot of baggage with that, as well as other projects she does more commercially. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA may not be a better testing environment, but a group could muster more people to do the work [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Testing is a big job. If it can be split up amongst multiple people it would make it easier on everyone. It just needs the testing to be coordinated. [11:16] Arielle Popstar: yes a more organized group effort  would expedite the testing  of  any new  stuff [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Really, what the IMA should consider when trying to create a bridge with OpenSim core devs is that they're the mountain, and Mohammad needs to them. OpenSim and any ancillary projects they have that use it occupy a lot of their time. They can't keep track of every other project out there. [11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: That means using their communication and bug reporting tools. [11:18] Arielle Popstar: sounds good  but how effective  has that been  in the past  6  months or so? [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA envisions a Working Group to organize testers [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSim already has a bug tracking system. Are you suggesting using another system for work done in conjunction with the IMA? [11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: A working group sounds great! Just so long as they coordinate their efforts with core in a way that'll work, [11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Any working group should make use of OpenSim's mantis tracker. [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: yes [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bug tracking is fine, but testing is needed to veryfy cure and sometime to isolate bug [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: as with permissions. [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the IMA set up a working group for testing or is that still a work in progress, or under discussion? [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is under discussion. [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn waits for the lists complaint. ;) [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: could set it up fast, but need members [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Does IMA have it's test grid(s) up and running? [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, it also needs to document the tests being done. [11:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA hopes to have the test grid up in 2 vweeks [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I"ve pointed it out before, but the SL wiki has some pretty good test procedures for things like permissions. That'd be a great place to start. [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: The core devs may want to review the test methodology and/or what actual tests are being done to make sure that the tests are valid and to make sure that some important feature/change isn't missed. [11:24] Arielle Popstar: looking at Mantis  it seems  mostly  Ubit  from the core team  doing the majority  of comments and  fixes [11:24] Arielle Popstar: over the past  few months [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit has been the most active commiter to OS in the past few months with some changes from Melanie. [11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to specify the test procedures and the results reporting. [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Ubit can be prolific. ;) But a commit isn't *necessarily* his work. He could be adding other people's patches in there as well. [11:25] Arielle Popstar: but usually attributes   if so? [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: The last patch I submitted was back when we were still on SVN... so I dunno. Hehe. [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, true. Sometimes patches come in from other users and Ubit is just the first to be available to commit and push the change. [11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to satisfy all the stakeholders in their work -- The Devs are major strakeholders [11:26] Arielle Popstar: what  i am getting at  is that perhaps the one to chat with about testing  would be Ubit? [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit or Melanie. Mel is the one who said some of her work is on hold pending perms testing. [11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: OH -- that makes sense if he is a major channel -- I have his email -- I will ask him [11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Regardless of which core devs take an interest in the testing, the IRC channel will provide the greatest "surface area" if you will to communicate directly with core members. [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:29] Arielle Popstar: which core devs can make the decision to include ot  not include patches? [11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: All core devs have a say. [11:29] Arielle Popstar: or does  that  depend  on the area  of master being affected? [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will arrange for us to contact Ubit or Mel [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, any core dev can commit and push a patch. One or more other devs may look at the changes and if they have an issue with a commit it will be discussed. [11:32] Arielle Popstar: ok [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: The section of code affected by a patch will have some impact on who may comment on it. [11:34] Arielle Popstar: these are the current core devs? http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: That looks up-to-date with the exception of one of the IRC Nicks. [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Seeing the list of interests column makes me remember I was updating the wiki documentation for the OSSL functions and still need to finish the updates. [11:38] Arielle Popstar: bigger stove yet [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I also haven't finished summarizing the list of changes from the AVN mega code dump. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: not sure if this might help [11:40] Arielle Popstar: http://binders.world/coding/changelog-2016.html [11:40] Arielle Popstar: if i understood you correctly [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: It might help a bit but there was a 3,000 line set of changes in one month. I don't remember when that happened. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I was organizing my change summary in to categories. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: misterblue, you may want to change your IRC nick on the web page at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:45] Misterblue Waves: does need some updating... [11:45] Arielle Popstar: the Avination merge was  January 2016 wasnt it? [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't ask me to remember things that far back. :D [11:47] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev       1848b1f: 2017-04-06 12:56:00 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't tell from that summary page when the big commit hit master. It might depend on how that page summarizes things. The list of changes for the different months don't show the amount of changes that were made because of the big code dump. [11:49] Arielle Popstar: November 16 2015 it  was announced   that  it  had  happened http://opensim-dev.2196679.n2.nabble.com/avination-merged-td7580720.html [11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: If I remember right (I may not) the merge started on a branch. [11:50] Arielle Popstar: it did [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see a summary for 2015 [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: at that binders.world site [11:51] Arielle Popstar: me either [11:51] Arielle Popstar: i looked for it before [11:51] Arielle Popstar: would be  handy [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, well. I'm down to a little under 2,000 lines still to summarize. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: oh is that all? ;) [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: It was over 3,000 lines when I first got the file of changes. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: big job [11:53] Misterblue Waves: it looks like the old branch was 'avinationmerge'... it went into 'master' on Nov 6 '15 (commit f93ce485b1df8c1c8a7ff1a44b280ce30b8707b9) [11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Yay people who get  git. :) [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I have it broken down to 21 categories of changes. [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I can search history but I don't always get it. [11:54] Misterblue Waves: there were many... that's a large job, Andrew... it's great that you're doing it [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Its been on hold for a while with other projects. [11:55] Arielle Popstar: i think in the long term it will be important [11:55] Misterblue Waves: Other projects get in the way :) [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm sure I will miss some change that might be important, or at least worthy to mention, as the changelog entries are often terse or cryptic (to me). [11:55] Misterblue Waves: same for me... I haven't had a lot of time for digging around in OS code [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't always really know what was actually changed based on some of the commit messages. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: What I find interesting is when I see changes mentioned for things that I thought had not been touched recently or were working features. [11:56] Misterblue Waves: if you have the commit number, you can do a 'git show b2592ab132d5ec69a6c04c9051174057e522c0cd" to get the diff of that commit [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Do what companies like Samsung, Sony, etc do... "Various updates to stability." [11:57] Arielle Popstar: lol@Marcus [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to add documentation under Areas of Interest for my listing on the development team page [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, that will be covered by "and many other bug fixes", or something along that line. :) [11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I will be stating upfront it is a list of the more noteworthy changes. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a lot of changes that affect the code but won't change anything seen by people using the code. [11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Famous last words. :D [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yea. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: well, probably some of those commits where I don't understand the implication of the change from the short changelog entry. [12:00] Misterblue Waves: does anyone know what VIrtual Outworlding is up to? [12:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I do [12:00] Marcus Llewellyn points at Selby. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that YAG (yet another grid)? [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Virtual outworlding is a blog [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: my blog [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. [12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: And a major supporter of many VW endeavors. Thank you. :) [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't often read blogs [12:02] Arielle Popstar: well there is a world to it too isnt there? [12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: VO is intended to support VW endeavors [12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Misterblue is the BulletSim Physics wizard. The IMA may want his name on their radar. :) [12:04] Arielle Popstar: yes, i agree [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Arielle -- Is working with a web-world builder to develop web-world for use by nonprofits [12:04] Arielle Popstar: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.ca/2017/02/2017-edu-oshg-proposal-for-web-world-to.html [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty re mister blue [12:05] Misterblue Waves: that what I was wondering.... how best to connect with such efforts [12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Check out the IMA, Robert. [12:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I passed that suggestion on to ima [12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: http://infinitemetaverse.com/ [12:06] Misterblue Waves: there are so many different web based systems going together at the moment [12:06] Misterblue Waves: they are all small... I've been wondering how best to leverage existing OS content and communities [12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The web-based system I am working with is the simplest --WebGL and Javascript [12:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is connected with NonProfit commons in SL [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I thought the high temperature for today was supposed to be about 12C and it is up to 18C. Nice. Time for a walk after this meeting. [12:08] Misterblue Waves: my goal with a web viewer is to have an OS avatar standing next to a High Fidelity avatar :) [12:08] Arielle Popstar: (was supposed to be over 20 C) [12:09] Arielle Popstar: that would be cool Robert [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am reporting on the system on my blog [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else for today? [12:09] Arielle Popstar: I think HF is open to that [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: and am in that world about 10 am pacifictime [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: daily [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: here is link: https://nonprofitvirtualworld.org/location.html?locationid=800000002&dl=true [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue: That could make the OS avatars look bad compared to the HF ones. [12:12] Misterblue Waves: the tech exists to make browser 3d worlds... the problem I see is community and content [12:12] Arielle Popstar: in what way Robert? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: security? [12:13] Misterblue Waves: we all are here because of the OS community... we could all split up into lots of little grids and worlds and that would dissipate the energy [12:14] Misterblue Waves: grids work when there are lots of people [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: A web client is a worthwhile project, but most people's computers/browsers/etc. haven't yet gotten to the point where you can do it as well as a thick client. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: i agree Robert  but  think it is not  justy based  on the  community  but also the ones  developing [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Sinewave's Space is a great example. They have a web viewer via Unity, and it works pretty well. But most user opt to download and use the thick client. [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Grids work best when there are lots of people using them. That's another topic. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: they in effect are the leaders [12:15] Arielle Popstar: even a hyper grid of worlds can have community if there is ongoing efforts to continue development [12:16] Arielle Popstar: seems to me the thick client are still faster and more powerful [12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: That will change eventually, but not yet. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: whereas the web based are more for tourists then actual inworld building [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Web based clients can lower the bar on trying out a vw. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: yes true Andrew [12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: And there's a huge focus on VR for a lot of new entrants in the VW ring. Until VR headsets become more appealing to consumers, that's kinda gonna put a crimp in things like community building. [12:18] Misterblue Waves: what VR means in the long run is an open question [12:18] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Very much so. [12:18] Arielle Popstar: really depends where the technology goes and  how  fast [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: There are new entrants to the headset market coming, and they'll be cheaper. But nobody knows how good of an experience they'll provide yet. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: As long as headsets are somewhat large and bulky VR isn't going to catch on with the mainstream user. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: i run lumiya on a $10  headset  with  bluetooth  mouse   and its  cool [12:19] Arielle Popstar: but not  for long  term [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: $10 headset? [12:19] Misterblue Waves: I love Lumiya [12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: The Windows Creator update will have support for those new VR headsets, although it's a little buried at the moment. The next update will probably have a major focus on it. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: yes she is doing  amazing things with it [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: We're talking $200-300 USD from companies like Acer, Dell, and a few others. [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: That's the promise, anyway. [12:21] Arielle Popstar: thing is the desktops and laptops are slowing in sales and tablets and phones picking up [12:21] Arielle Popstar: people going to want to use those for VR imo [12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile will provide a very different VR experience than one hooked up to a decent computer. It's more suitable for things like tours or VR movies than for VWs. [12:22] Misterblue Waves: I tend to think that browser based VWs is good for tablets and mobile while dedicated is good for desktop and headsets (when you need the resolution and speed) [12:23] Misterblue Waves: I know there are utility reasons for web based VWs also (ease of installation) [12:23] Arielle Popstar: mmm, my new  LG 5 does  pretty good with Lumiya and opensim [12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: So does my old Nexus 9. :) But compared to the full viewer, there's no contest in terms of quality, speed, features, etc. [12:23] Misterblue Waves: but keeping the same VW with many different 'connections' to it (dedicated, mobile, chat, ...) is more universally usable [12:23] Arielle Popstar: more cores in my phone then in my current laptop [12:24] Kayaker Magic: Is Lumiya under active development? Are new features added, new versions come out often? [12:24] Arielle Popstar: Yes Andrew [12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile SOC cores are a tricky thing. [12:24] Arielle Popstar: best $3  i spent on Google play [12:25] Arielle Popstar: oh sorry Kayaker :) [12:26] Arielle Popstar: is anyone currently working  on a web based  Opensim? [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: MOSES still is, as far as I know. [12:26] Arielle Popstar: wish they would get HG  back in :( [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, guess that's Halcyon based. [12:27] Misterblue Waves: yes MOSES (working with inWorldz/Halcyon) is working on a viewer [12:27] Arielle Popstar: every fork other then Freakys  drops  HG [12:27] Misterblue Waves: they are defining their own protocol so it's not a general solution [12:27] Kayaker Magic: MOSES has changed the protocol for their web based Halcyon viewer, so it will not work with Opensim unless one of our developers adds that protocol [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: They are? That is going to make their work even less compatible with the main OS code base. [12:28] Misterblue Waves: I've been playing with building my own that will work with OS, but it requires a lot of content manipulation work with with WebGL [12:28] Marcus Llewellyn: I'd assume a new protocol stack would be requisite for a proper web client. I mean, you could shoehorn LLUDP into websockets with effort, but that seems like a wierd way to go. [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:29] Kayaker Magic: Everybody hates the LL viewer protocol, but the TPV people are not interested in changing that. [12:30] Misterblue Waves: I was going to build a converter that talks LLLP (Linden Lab Legacy Protocol) on one side and an optimized protocol on the other -- need a different asset representation as well as better LOD support [12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It needs cooperation between the viewer end and the back end code. [12:30] Arielle Popstar: at least on the LL  they have a community of people that will use it [12:30] Marcus Llewellyn: That's because 99.9% of te TPV devs aren't protocol level people. Their projects are highly dependent on upstream code from LL> [12:30] Kayaker Magic: Only MOSES had an opportunity to break away. with their own viewer. [12:31] Marcus Llewellyn: I've always been of the opinion that as long as OpenSim doesn't have it's own viewer, in whatever form, it's only half a project. [12:32] Arielle Popstar: hmm i would  hate to see Opensim down to having only one choice for viewer [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: There is talk of an OS specific viewer but that would still be down the road aways. [12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, I've heard.... rumbles. ;) [12:33] Misterblue Waves: who's doing the rumbles, Marcus? [12:33] Arielle Popstar: if there was to be a seperate ops viewer then i would hope because there would be more inworld building tools [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Wonderful. Now the temp has dropped 2 degrees and I see it saying its raining. [12:33] Arielle Popstar: keep it where you are Andrew [12:33] Arielle Popstar: I have outside chores to do yet [12:34] Marcus Llewellyn: I won't say, cuz the person doing the rumbling has been very non-commital and secretive. Sooo... I'd just be sharing vapor right now. [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Areille, I don't want it where I am. [12:34] Arielle Popstar: vapor ware [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Hopefully not. Doesn't hurt to keep an eye open. :) [12:35] Arielle Popstar: true [12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, one never knows. [12:35] Arielle Popstar: doing anymore on Bullet Robert? [12:35] Misterblue Waves: haven't done anything in a while [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If the person(s) wanting to do an OS specific viewer can also get some financial support that can help encourage them to work on it if they otherwise need to get other paid work that might prevent them from working on a viewer. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: if I was to get back into it, I'd want to rearchitect is so it handles linksets and dynamics better while also simplifying the interface between the C# and C++ code [12:37] Arielle Popstar: big project? [12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been thinking of setting up a Patreon account to see if I could get a few $'s to help pay the bills based on all the Open Source projects I work on and support. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: keeping backward compatibilty for all the OS simulator modules is holding back adding new features [12:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Justin used to accept donations. I forget which service he used. [12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, back when I last looked at some of the code re: linksets I saw the potential for some optimization. [12:38] Misterblue Waves: there have been several efforts to fund work... I don't remember all the details, though [12:38] Marcus Llewellyn: Hierarchical linksets! :D [12:38] Arielle Popstar: IMA is looking to do that [12:39] Arielle Popstar: might be worth checking  out [12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm involved in 2 major Open Source projects and help support them via IRC channels along with helping run a grid and supporting others. [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the interface for linksets between the simulator and the physics engine needs to be changed (like was done in Aurora) where the linkset is defined all at once rather than individual prim link calls.... that makes object state hard to manage [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the definition of linksets is simple for content creators but difficult for implementation [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, I noticed a lot of linking and unlinking that seemed a waste when dealing with manipulating link sets. it was done on a per prim basis. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Linking two sets of prims should just be little more than adding one linkset to the end of other other and updating a few link numbers for the prims. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: and probably position/rotation data for the new child prims. [12:41] Arielle Popstar: Robert, IMA is open to doing testing etc if you did decide to go further on that [12:41] Misterblue Waves: exactly Andrew... linksets should have a link/delink interface for the content creator but should be whole object to the simulator internals [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: It should not need to delink a prim and add the prim one at a time. [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, that stuff is buried in the SOP/SOG code. [12:41] Marcus Llewellyn: As a user, that process is a noticable one at times. [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I also notice it at times as a builder. [12:42] Misterblue Waves would love to rewrite a lot of OS internals... but that's close to starting over :) [12:42] Arielle Popstar: ;)\ [12:42] Marcus Llewellyn: BlueSim! >:D [12:43] Arielle Popstar: Hehe [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: The linking code is a smaller set of changes isolated to a few files. [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, sounds like one more pot for your stove. :) [12:43] Misterblue Waves: and my wife would like to see me sometimes :) [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: a couple people are  actually  in process of redoing everything but as a solo project that would be a huge undertaking [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Sit on the couch beside her while you are coding and she can see you. ;) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: present but not quite  present [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: She can visit you inworld. ;) [12:45] Arielle Popstar: meet you inworld [12:45] Misterblue Waves: I'm sure that would go over well ;-) [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: teehee [12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:46] Arielle Popstar: anyway interesting discussion [12:47] Arielle Popstar: glad it went  in overtime   because  i think there was  some good info  put  out [12:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Best to you and your family, Andrew. [10:58] Arielle Popstar: was hoping  Ubit  might have  but not seen him this  morning [10:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Did you ask Ubit for a new location maybe? [10:59] Arielle Popstar: it was  talked about  but  nothing  confirmed [10:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't see Ubit online [10:59] Arielle Popstar: he did make it here for the osgrid town meeting [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: I just reminded people on the irc dev channel about the meeting. [11:00] Arielle Popstar: irc very chatty  lately? [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Not paricularly. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to get someone to fill in for me for the meetings I was fairly certain I would miss but neither person turned up to run them from what I read in the meeting transcripts. [11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: We found things to talk about. :) [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Re: the Testing project, IMA is quite intereste in setting up a working group in cooperation with the Devs [11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Devs should not have to do their own testing [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I have done very little OS related stuff in the last month (approximately) [11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Understand [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Do any IMA member have an IRC presence on Freenode? [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: It is really hard typing things today. I try and fix a typo and it doesn't want to change what I entered. :P [11:09] Arielle Popstar: no idea [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It might just be a form of chat lag. [11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: I have a feeling that the IRC channels are the best way to start, and that IMA should reach out with their offer to help test there. [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't know, Marcus [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will ask [11:10] Arielle Popstar: are Mel and Diva present  on irc? [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably. [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If I don't get too many other distractions today I will be the final tests on the changes I made to the OpenSimSearch and OpenSimProfile modules. [11:10] Arielle Popstar: Andrew and Ubit are accessable elsewhere [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: They're at least lurking on the dev channel pretty much 24/7 [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I'm not in IRC 24/7. If my computer is not sleeping I have it connected to the IRC channel. [11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Asking Steve -- he may be availavble [11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: I meant Mel mostly. :) [11:12] Arielle Popstar: i think part of the question  might be in what way the IMA  may be  a better testing  environment then Osgrid itself [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, Melanie is connected 24/7 AFAIK. I haven't seen Diva online for a while. [11:13] Arielle Popstar: heard  she is  busy on another project [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: She's there now, but wether she's paying attention at anty given time is always an open question. [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle: Mel or Diva? [11:14] Arielle Popstar: Diva [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Diva has several pots on the stove. ;) [11:14] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... in my case I'd need a bigger stove. :) [11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe. Well, it's just that she's an academic, so there's a lot of baggage with that, as well as other projects she does more commercially. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA may not be a better testing environment, but a group could muster more people to do the work [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Testing is a big job. If it can be split up amongst multiple people it would make it easier on everyone. It just needs the testing to be coordinated. [11:16] Arielle Popstar: yes a more organized group effort  would expedite the testing  of  any new  stuff [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Really, what the IMA should consider when trying to create a bridge with OpenSim core devs is that they're the mountain, and Mohammad needs to them. OpenSim and any ancillary projects they have that use it occupy a lot of their time. They can't keep track of every other project out there. [11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: That means using their communication and bug reporting tools. [11:18] Arielle Popstar: sounds good  but how effective  has that been  in the past  6  months or so? [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA envisions a Working Group to organize testers [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSim already has a bug tracking system. Are you suggesting using another system for work done in conjunction with the IMA? [11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: A working group sounds great! Just so long as they coordinate their efforts with core in a way that'll work, [11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Any working group should make use of OpenSim's mantis tracker. [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: yes [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bug tracking is fine, but testing is needed to veryfy cure and sometime to isolate bug [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: as with permissions. [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the IMA set up a working group for testing or is that still a work in progress, or under discussion? [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is under discussion. [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn waits for the lists complaint. ;) [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: could set it up fast, but need members [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Does IMA have it's test grid(s) up and running? [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, it also needs to document the tests being done. [11:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA hopes to have the test grid up in 2 vweeks [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I"ve pointed it out before, but the SL wiki has some pretty good test procedures for things like permissions. That'd be a great place to start. [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: The core devs may want to review the test methodology and/or what actual tests are being done to make sure that the tests are valid and to make sure that some important feature/change isn't missed. [11:24] Arielle Popstar: looking at Mantis  it seems  mostly  Ubit  from the core team  doing the majority  of comments and  fixes [11:24] Arielle Popstar: over the past  few months [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit has been the most active commiter to OS in the past few months with some changes from Melanie. [11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to specify the test procedures and the results reporting. [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Ubit can be prolific. ;) But a commit isn't *necessarily* his work. He could be adding other people's patches in there as well. [11:25] Arielle Popstar: but usually attributes   if so? [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: The last patch I submitted was back when we were still on SVN... so I dunno. Hehe. [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, true. Sometimes patches come in from other users and Ubit is just the first to be available to commit and push the change. [11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to satisfy all the stakeholders in their work -- The Devs are major strakeholders [11:26] Arielle Popstar: what  i am getting at  is that perhaps the one to chat with about testing  would be Ubit? [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit or Melanie. Mel is the one who said some of her work is on hold pending perms testing. [11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: OH -- that makes sense if he is a major channel -- I have his email -- I will ask him [11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Regardless of which core devs take an interest in the testing, the IRC channel will provide the greatest "surface area" if you will to communicate directly with core members. [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:29] Arielle Popstar: which core devs can make the decision to include ot  not include patches? [11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: All core devs have a say. [11:29] Arielle Popstar: or does  that  depend  on the area  of master being affected? [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will arrange for us to contact Ubit or Mel [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, any core dev can commit and push a patch. One or more other devs may look at the changes and if they have an issue with a commit it will be discussed. [11:32] Arielle Popstar: ok [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: The section of code affected by a patch will have some impact on who may comment on it. [11:34] Arielle Popstar: these are the current core devs? http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: That looks up-to-date with the exception of one of the IRC Nicks. [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Seeing the list of interests column makes me remember I was updating the wiki documentation for the OSSL functions and still need to finish the updates. [11:38] Arielle Popstar: bigger stove yet [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I also haven't finished summarizing the list of changes from the AVN mega code dump. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: not sure if this might help [11:40] Arielle Popstar: http://binders.world/coding/changelog-2016.html [11:40] Arielle Popstar: if i understood you correctly [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: It might help a bit but there was a 3,000 line set of changes in one month. I don't remember when that happened. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I was organizing my change summary in to categories. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: misterblue, you may want to change your IRC nick on the web page at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:45] Misterblue Waves: does need some updating... [11:45] Arielle Popstar: the Avination merge was  January 2016 wasnt it? [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't ask me to remember things that far back. :D [11:47] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev       1848b1f: 2017-04-06 12:56:00 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't tell from that summary page when the big commit hit master. It might depend on how that page summarizes things. The list of changes for the different months don't show the amount of changes that were made because of the big code dump. [11:49] Arielle Popstar: November 16 2015 it  was announced   that  it  had  happened http://opensim-dev.2196679.n2.nabble.com/avination-merged-td7580720.html [11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: If I remember right (I may not) the merge started on a branch. [11:50] Arielle Popstar: it did [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see a summary for 2015 [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: at that binders.world site [11:51] Arielle Popstar: me either [11:51] Arielle Popstar: i looked for it before [11:51] Arielle Popstar: would be  handy [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, well. I'm down to a little under 2,000 lines still to summarize. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: oh is that all? ;) [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: It was over 3,000 lines when I first got the file of changes. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: big job [11:53] Misterblue Waves: it looks like the old branch was 'avinationmerge'... it went into 'master' on Nov 6 '15 (commit f93ce485b1df8c1c8a7ff1a44b280ce30b8707b9) [11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Yay people who get  git. :) [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I have it broken down to 21 categories of changes. [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I can search history but I don't always get it. [11:54] Misterblue Waves: there were many... that's a large job, Andrew... it's great that you're doing it [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Its been on hold for a while with other projects. [11:55] Arielle Popstar: i think in the long term it will be important [11:55] Misterblue Waves: Other projects get in the way :) [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm sure I will miss some change that might be important, or at least worthy to mention, as the changelog entries are often terse or cryptic (to me). [11:55] Misterblue Waves: same for me... I haven't had a lot of time for digging around in OS code [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't always really know what was actually changed based on some of the commit messages. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: What I find interesting is when I see changes mentioned for things that I thought had not been touched recently or were working features. [11:56] Misterblue Waves: if you have the commit number, you can do a 'git show b2592ab132d5ec69a6c04c9051174057e522c0cd" to get the diff of that commit [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Do what companies like Samsung, Sony, etc do... "Various updates to stability." [11:57] Arielle Popstar: lol@Marcus [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to add documentation under Areas of Interest for my listing on the development team page [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, that will be covered by "and many other bug fixes", or something along that line. :) [11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I will be stating upfront it is a list of the more noteworthy changes. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a lot of changes that affect the code but won't change anything seen by people using the code. [11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Famous last words. :D [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yea. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: well, probably some of those commits where I don't understand the implication of the change from the short changelog entry. [12:00] Misterblue Waves: does anyone know what VIrtual Outworlding is up to? [12:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I do [12:00] Marcus Llewellyn points at Selby. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that YAG (yet another grid)? [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Virtual outworlding is a blog [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: my blog [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. [12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: And a major supporter of many VW endeavors. Thank you. :) [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't often read blogs [12:02] Arielle Popstar: well there is a world to it too isnt there? [12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: VO is intended to support VW endeavors [12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Misterblue is the BulletSim Physics wizard. The IMA may want his name on their radar. :) [12:04] Arielle Popstar: yes, i agree [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Arielle -- Is working with a web-world builder to develop web-world for use by nonprofits [12:04] Arielle Popstar: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.ca/2017/02/2017-edu-oshg-proposal-for-web-world-to.html [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty re mister blue [12:05] Misterblue Waves: that what I was wondering.... how best to connect with such efforts [12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Check out the IMA, Robert. [12:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I passed that suggestion on to ima [12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: http://infinitemetaverse.com/ [12:06] Misterblue Waves: there are so many different web based systems going together at the moment [12:06] Misterblue Waves: they are all small... I've been wondering how best to leverage existing OS content and communities [12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The web-based system I am working with is the simplest --WebGL and Javascript [12:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is connected with NonProfit commons in SL [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I thought the high temperature for today was supposed to be about 12C and it is up to 18C. Nice. Time for a walk after this meeting. [12:08] Misterblue Waves: my goal with a web viewer is to have an OS avatar standing next to a High Fidelity avatar :) [12:08] Arielle Popstar: (was supposed to be over 20 C) [12:09] Arielle Popstar: that would be cool Robert [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am reporting on the system on my blog [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else for today? [12:09] Arielle Popstar: I think HF is open to that [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: and am in that world about 10 am pacifictime [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: daily [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: here is link: https://nonprofitvirtualworld.org/location.html?locationid=800000002&dl=true [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue: That could make the OS avatars look bad compared to the HF ones. [12:12] Misterblue Waves: the tech exists to make browser 3d worlds... the problem I see is community and content [12:12] Arielle Popstar: in what way Robert? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: security? [12:13] Misterblue Waves: we all are here because of the OS community... we could all split up into lots of little grids and worlds and that would dissipate the energy [12:14] Misterblue Waves: grids work when there are lots of people [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: A web client is a worthwhile project, but most people's computers/browsers/etc. haven't yet gotten to the point where you can do it as well as a thick client. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: i agree Robert  but  think it is not  justy based  on the  community  but also the ones  developing [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Sinewave's Space is a great example. They have a web viewer via Unity, and it works pretty well. But most user opt to download and use the thick client. [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Grids work best when there are lots of people using them. That's another topic. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: they in effect are the leaders [12:15] Arielle Popstar: even a hyper grid of worlds can have community if there is ongoing efforts to continue development [12:16] Arielle Popstar: seems to me the thick client are still faster and more powerful [12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: That will change eventually, but not yet. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: whereas the web based are more for tourists then actual inworld building [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Web based clients can lower the bar on trying out a vw. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: yes true Andrew [12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: And there's a huge focus on VR for a lot of new entrants in the VW ring. Until VR headsets become more appealing to consumers, that's kinda gonna put a crimp in things like community building. [12:18] Misterblue Waves: what VR means in the long run is an open question [12:18] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Very much so. [12:18] Arielle Popstar: really depends where the technology goes and  how  fast [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: There are new entrants to the headset market coming, and they'll be cheaper. But nobody knows how good of an experience they'll provide yet. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: As long as headsets are somewhat large and bulky VR isn't going to catch on with the mainstream user. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: i run lumiya on a $10  headset  with  bluetooth  mouse   and its  cool [12:19] Arielle Popstar: but not  for long  term [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: $10 headset? [12:19] Misterblue Waves: I love Lumiya [12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: The Windows Creator update will have support for those new VR headsets, although it's a little buried at the moment. The next update will probably have a major focus on it. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: yes she is doing  amazing things with it [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: We're talking $200-300 USD from companies like Acer, Dell, and a few others. [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: That's the promise, anyway. [12:21] Arielle Popstar: thing is the desktops and laptops are slowing in sales and tablets and phones picking up [12:21] Arielle Popstar: people going to want to use those for VR imo [12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile will provide a very different VR experience than one hooked up to a decent computer. It's more suitable for things like tours or VR movies than for VWs. [12:22] Misterblue Waves: I tend to think that browser based VWs is good for tablets and mobile while dedicated is good for desktop and headsets (when you need the resolution and speed) [12:23] Misterblue Waves: I know there are utility reasons for web based VWs also (ease of installation) [12:23] Arielle Popstar: mmm, my new  LG 5 does  pretty good with Lumiya and opensim [12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: So does my old Nexus 9. :) But compared to the full viewer, there's no contest in terms of quality, speed, features, etc. [12:23] Misterblue Waves: but keeping the same VW with many different 'connections' to it (dedicated, mobile, chat, ...) is more universally usable [12:23] Arielle Popstar: more cores in my phone then in my current laptop [12:24] Kayaker Magic: Is Lumiya under active development? Are new features added, new versions come out often? [12:24] Arielle Popstar: Yes Andrew [12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile SOC cores are a tricky thing. [12:24] Arielle Popstar: best $3  i spent on Google play [12:25] Arielle Popstar: oh sorry Kayaker :) [12:26] Arielle Popstar: is anyone currently working  on a web based  Opensim? [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: MOSES still is, as far as I know. [12:26] Arielle Popstar: wish they would get HG  back in :( [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, guess that's Halcyon based. [12:27] Misterblue Waves: yes MOSES (working with inWorldz/Halcyon) is working on a viewer [12:27] Arielle Popstar: every fork other then Freakys  drops  HG [12:27] Misterblue Waves: they are defining their own protocol so it's not a general solution [12:27] Kayaker Magic: MOSES has changed the protocol for their web based Halcyon viewer, so it will not work with Opensim unless one of our developers adds that protocol [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: They are? That is going to make their work even less compatible with the main OS code base. [12:28] Misterblue Waves: I've been playing with building my own that will work with OS, but it requires a lot of content manipulation work with with WebGL [12:28] Marcus Llewellyn: I'd assume a new protocol stack would be requisite for a proper web client. I mean, you could shoehorn LLUDP into websockets with effort, but that seems like a wierd way to go. [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:29] Kayaker Magic: Everybody hates the LL viewer protocol, but the TPV people are not interested in changing that. [12:30] Misterblue Waves: I was going to build a converter that talks LLLP (Linden Lab Legacy Protocol) on one side and an optimized protocol on the other -- need a different asset representation as well as better LOD support [12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It needs cooperation between the viewer end and the back end code. [12:30] Arielle Popstar: at least on the LL  they have a community of people that will use it [12:30] Marcus Llewellyn: That's because 99.9% of te TPV devs aren't protocol level people. Their projects are highly dependent on upstream code from LL> [12:30] Kayaker Magic: Only MOSES had an opportunity to break away. with their own viewer. [12:31] Marcus Llewellyn: I've always been of the opinion that as long as OpenSim doesn't have it's own viewer, in whatever form, it's only half a project. [12:32] Arielle Popstar: hmm i would  hate to see Opensim down to having only one choice for viewer [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: There is talk of an OS specific viewer but that would still be down the road aways. [12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, I've heard.... rumbles. ;) [12:33] Misterblue Waves: who's doing the rumbles, Marcus? [12:33] Arielle Popstar: if there was to be a seperate ops viewer then i would hope because there would be more inworld building tools [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Wonderful. Now the temp has dropped 2 degrees and I see it saying its raining. [12:33] Arielle Popstar: keep it where you are Andrew [12:33] Arielle Popstar: I have outside chores to do yet [12:34] Marcus Llewellyn: I won't say, cuz the person doing the rumbling has been very non-commital and secretive. Sooo... I'd just be sharing vapor right now. [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Areille, I don't want it where I am. [12:34] Arielle Popstar: vapor ware [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Hopefully not. Doesn't hurt to keep an eye open. :) [12:35] Arielle Popstar: true [12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, one never knows. [12:35] Arielle Popstar: doing anymore on Bullet Robert? [12:35] Misterblue Waves: haven't done anything in a while [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If the person(s) wanting to do an OS specific viewer can also get some financial support that can help encourage them to work on it if they otherwise need to get other paid work that might prevent them from working on a viewer. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: if I was to get back into it, I'd want to rearchitect is so it handles linksets and dynamics better while also simplifying the interface between the C# and C++ code [12:37] Arielle Popstar: big project? [12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been thinking of setting up a Patreon account to see if I could get a few $'s to help pay the bills based on all the Open Source projects I work on and support. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: keeping backward compatibilty for all the OS simulator modules is holding back adding new features [12:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Justin used to accept donations. I forget which service he used. [12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, back when I last looked at some of the code re: linksets I saw the potential for some optimization. [12:38] Misterblue Waves: there have been several efforts to fund work... I don't remember all the details, though [12:38] Marcus Llewellyn: Hierarchical linksets! :D [12:38] Arielle Popstar: IMA is looking to do that [12:39] Arielle Popstar: might be worth checking  out [12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm involved in 2 major Open Source projects and help support them via IRC channels along with helping run a grid and supporting others. [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the interface for linksets between the simulator and the physics engine needs to be changed (like was done in Aurora) where the linkset is defined all at once rather than individual prim link calls.... that makes object state hard to manage [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the definition of linksets is simple for content creators but difficult for implementation [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, I noticed a lot of linking and unlinking that seemed a waste when dealing with manipulating link sets. it was done on a per prim basis. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Linking two sets of prims should just be little more than adding one linkset to the end of other other and updating a few link numbers for the prims. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: and probably position/rotation data for the new child prims. [12:41] Arielle Popstar: Robert, IMA is open to doing testing etc if you did decide to go further on that [12:41] Misterblue Waves: exactly Andrew... linksets should have a link/delink interface for the content creator but should be whole object to the simulator internals [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: It should not need to delink a prim and add the prim one at a time. [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, that stuff is buried in the SOP/SOG code. [12:41] Marcus Llewellyn: As a user, that process is a noticable one at times. [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I also notice it at times as a builder. [12:42] Misterblue Waves would love to rewrite a lot of OS internals... but that's close to starting over :) [12:42] Arielle Popstar: ;)\ [12:42] Marcus Llewellyn: BlueSim! >:D [12:43] Arielle Popstar: Hehe [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: The linking code is a smaller set of changes isolated to a few files. [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, sounds like one more pot for your stove. :) [12:43] Misterblue Waves: and my wife would like to see me sometimes :) [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: a couple people are  actually  in process of redoing everything but as a solo project that would be a huge undertaking [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Sit on the couch beside her while you are coding and she can see you. ;) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: present but not quite  present [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: She can visit you inworld. ;) [12:45] Arielle Popstar: meet you inworld [12:45] Misterblue Waves: I'm sure that would go over well ;-) [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: teehee [12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:46] Arielle Popstar: anyway interesting discussion [12:47] Arielle Popstar: glad it went  in overtime   because  i think there was  some good info  put  out [12:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Best to you and your family, Andrew. [10:58] Arielle Popstar: was hoping  Ubit  might have  but not seen him this  morning [10:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Did you ask Ubit for a new location maybe? [10:59] Arielle Popstar: it was  talked about  but  nothing  confirmed [10:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't see Ubit online [10:59] Arielle Popstar: he did make it here for the osgrid town meeting [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: I just reminded people on the irc dev channel about the meeting. [11:00] Arielle Popstar: irc very chatty  lately? [11:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Not paricularly. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to get someone to fill in for me for the meetings I was fairly certain I would miss but neither person turned up to run them from what I read in the meeting transcripts. [11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: We found things to talk about. :) [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Re: the Testing project, IMA is quite intereste in setting up a working group in cooperation with the Devs [11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Devs should not have to do their own testing [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I have done very little OS related stuff in the last month (approximately) [11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Understand [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Do any IMA member have an IRC presence on Freenode? [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: It is really hard typing things today. I try and fix a typo and it doesn't want to change what I entered. :P [11:09] Arielle Popstar: no idea [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It might just be a form of chat lag. [11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: I have a feeling that the IRC channels are the best way to start, and that IMA should reach out with their offer to help test there. [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't know, Marcus [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will ask [11:10] Arielle Popstar: are Mel and Diva present  on irc? [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably. [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If I don't get too many other distractions today I will be the final tests on the changes I made to the OpenSimSearch and OpenSimProfile modules. [11:10] Arielle Popstar: Andrew and Ubit are accessable elsewhere [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: They're at least lurking on the dev channel pretty much 24/7 [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I'm not in IRC 24/7. If my computer is not sleeping I have it connected to the IRC channel. [11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Asking Steve -- he may be availavble [11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: I meant Mel mostly. :) [11:12] Arielle Popstar: i think part of the question  might be in what way the IMA  may be  a better testing  environment then Osgrid itself [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, Melanie is connected 24/7 AFAIK. I haven't seen Diva online for a while. [11:13] Arielle Popstar: heard  she is  busy on another project [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: She's there now, but wether she's paying attention at anty given time is always an open question. [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle: Mel or Diva? [11:14] Arielle Popstar: Diva [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Diva has several pots on the stove. ;) [11:14] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... in my case I'd need a bigger stove. :) [11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe. Well, it's just that she's an academic, so there's a lot of baggage with that, as well as other projects she does more commercially. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA may not be a better testing environment, but a group could muster more people to do the work [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Testing is a big job. If it can be split up amongst multiple people it would make it easier on everyone. It just needs the testing to be coordinated. [11:16] Arielle Popstar: yes a more organized group effort  would expedite the testing  of  any new  stuff [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Really, what the IMA should consider when trying to create a bridge with OpenSim core devs is that they're the mountain, and Mohammad needs to them. OpenSim and any ancillary projects they have that use it occupy a lot of their time. They can't keep track of every other project out there. [11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: That means using their communication and bug reporting tools. [11:18] Arielle Popstar: sounds good  but how effective  has that been  in the past  6  months or so? [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA envisions a Working Group to organize testers [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSim already has a bug tracking system. Are you suggesting using another system for work done in conjunction with the IMA? [11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: A working group sounds great! Just so long as they coordinate their efforts with core in a way that'll work, [11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Any working group should make use of OpenSim's mantis tracker. [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: yes [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bug tracking is fine, but testing is needed to veryfy cure and sometime to isolate bug [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: as with permissions. [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the IMA set up a working group for testing or is that still a work in progress, or under discussion? [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is under discussion. [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn waits for the lists complaint. ;) [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: could set it up fast, but need members [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Does IMA have it's test grid(s) up and running? [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, it also needs to document the tests being done. [11:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA hopes to have the test grid up in 2 vweeks [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I"ve pointed it out before, but the SL wiki has some pretty good test procedures for things like permissions. That'd be a great place to start. [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: The core devs may want to review the test methodology and/or what actual tests are being done to make sure that the tests are valid and to make sure that some important feature/change isn't missed. [11:24] Arielle Popstar: looking at Mantis  it seems  mostly  Ubit  from the core team  doing the majority  of comments and  fixes [11:24] Arielle Popstar: over the past  few months [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit has been the most active commiter to OS in the past few months with some changes from Melanie. [11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to specify the test procedures and the results reporting. [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Ubit can be prolific. ;) But a commit isn't *necessarily* his work. He could be adding other people's patches in there as well. [11:25] Arielle Popstar: but usually attributes   if so? [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: The last patch I submitted was back when we were still on SVN... so I dunno. Hehe. [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, true. Sometimes patches come in from other users and Ubit is just the first to be available to commit and push the change. [11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The job of the WG is to satisfy all the stakeholders in their work -- The Devs are major strakeholders [11:26] Arielle Popstar: what  i am getting at  is that perhaps the one to chat with about testing  would be Ubit? [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit or Melanie. Mel is the one who said some of her work is on hold pending perms testing. [11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: OH -- that makes sense if he is a major channel -- I have his email -- I will ask him [11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Regardless of which core devs take an interest in the testing, the IRC channel will provide the greatest "surface area" if you will to communicate directly with core members. [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:29] Arielle Popstar: which core devs can make the decision to include ot  not include patches? [11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: All core devs have a say. [11:29] Arielle Popstar: or does  that  depend  on the area  of master being affected? [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will arrange for us to contact Ubit or Mel [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, any core dev can commit and push a patch. One or more other devs may look at the changes and if they have an issue with a commit it will be discussed. [11:32] Arielle Popstar: ok [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: The section of code affected by a patch will have some impact on who may comment on it. [11:34] Arielle Popstar: these are the current core devs? http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: That looks up-to-date with the exception of one of the IRC Nicks. [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Seeing the list of interests column makes me remember I was updating the wiki documentation for the OSSL functions and still need to finish the updates. [11:38] Arielle Popstar: bigger stove yet [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I also haven't finished summarizing the list of changes from the AVN mega code dump. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: not sure if this might help [11:40] Arielle Popstar: http://binders.world/coding/changelog-2016.html [11:40] Arielle Popstar: if i understood you correctly [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: It might help a bit but there was a 3,000 line set of changes in one month. I don't remember when that happened. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I was organizing my change summary in to categories. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: misterblue, you may want to change your IRC nick on the web page at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Development_Team [11:45] Misterblue Waves: does need some updating... [11:45] Arielle Popstar: the Avination merge was  January 2016 wasnt it? [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't ask me to remember things that far back. :D [11:47] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev       1848b1f: 2017-04-06 12:56:00 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't tell from that summary page when the big commit hit master. It might depend on how that page summarizes things. The list of changes for the different months don't show the amount of changes that were made because of the big code dump. [11:49] Arielle Popstar: November 16 2015 it  was announced   that  it  had  happened http://opensim-dev.2196679.n2.nabble.com/avination-merged-td7580720.html [11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: If I remember right (I may not) the merge started on a branch. [11:50] Arielle Popstar: it did [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see a summary for 2015 [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: at that binders.world site [11:51] Arielle Popstar: me either [11:51] Arielle Popstar: i looked for it before [11:51] Arielle Popstar: would be  handy [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, well. I'm down to a little under 2,000 lines still to summarize. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: oh is that all? ;) [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: It was over 3,000 lines when I first got the file of changes. [11:52] Arielle Popstar: big job [11:53] Misterblue Waves: it looks like the old branch was 'avinationmerge'... it went into 'master' on Nov 6 '15 (commit f93ce485b1df8c1c8a7ff1a44b280ce30b8707b9) [11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Yay people who get  git. :) [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I have it broken down to 21 categories of changes. [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I can search history but I don't always get it. [11:54] Misterblue Waves: there were many... that's a large job, Andrew... it's great that you're doing it [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Its been on hold for a while with other projects. [11:55] Arielle Popstar: i think in the long term it will be important [11:55] Misterblue Waves: Other projects get in the way :) [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm sure I will miss some change that might be important, or at least worthy to mention, as the changelog entries are often terse or cryptic (to me). [11:55] Misterblue Waves: same for me... I haven't had a lot of time for digging around in OS code [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't always really know what was actually changed based on some of the commit messages. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: What I find interesting is when I see changes mentioned for things that I thought had not been touched recently or were working features. [11:56] Misterblue Waves: if you have the commit number, you can do a 'git show b2592ab132d5ec69a6c04c9051174057e522c0cd" to get the diff of that commit [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Do what companies like Samsung, Sony, etc do... "Various updates to stability." [11:57] Arielle Popstar: lol@Marcus [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to add documentation under Areas of Interest for my listing on the development team page [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, that will be covered by "and many other bug fixes", or something along that line. :) [11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I will be stating upfront it is a list of the more noteworthy changes. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a lot of changes that affect the code but won't change anything seen by people using the code. [11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Famous last words. :D [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yea. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: well, probably some of those commits where I don't understand the implication of the change from the short changelog entry. [12:00] Misterblue Waves: does anyone know what VIrtual Outworlding is up to? [12:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I do [12:00] Marcus Llewellyn points at Selby. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that YAG (yet another grid)? [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Virtual outworlding is a blog [12:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: my blog [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. [12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: And a major supporter of many VW endeavors. Thank you. :) [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't often read blogs [12:02] Arielle Popstar: well there is a world to it too isnt there? [12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: VO is intended to support VW endeavors [12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Misterblue is the BulletSim Physics wizard. The IMA may want his name on their radar. :) [12:04] Arielle Popstar: yes, i agree [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Arielle -- Is working with a web-world builder to develop web-world for use by nonprofits [12:04] Arielle Popstar: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.ca/2017/02/2017-edu-oshg-proposal-for-web-world-to.html [12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty re mister blue [12:05] Misterblue Waves: that what I was wondering.... how best to connect with such efforts [12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Check out the IMA, Robert. [12:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I passed that suggestion on to ima [12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: http://infinitemetaverse.com/ [12:06] Misterblue Waves: there are so many different web based systems going together at the moment [12:06] Misterblue Waves: they are all small... I've been wondering how best to leverage existing OS content and communities [12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The web-based system I am working with is the simplest --WebGL and Javascript [12:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is connected with NonProfit commons in SL [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I thought the high temperature for today was supposed to be about 12C and it is up to 18C. Nice. Time for a walk after this meeting. [12:08] Misterblue Waves: my goal with a web viewer is to have an OS avatar standing next to a High Fidelity avatar :) [12:08] Arielle Popstar: (was supposed to be over 20 C) [12:09] Arielle Popstar: that would be cool Robert [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am reporting on the system on my blog [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else for today? [12:09] Arielle Popstar: I think HF is open to that [12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: and am in that world about 10 am pacifictime [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: daily [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: here is link: https://nonprofitvirtualworld.org/location.html?locationid=800000002&dl=true [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue: That could make the OS avatars look bad compared to the HF ones. [12:12] Misterblue Waves: the tech exists to make browser 3d worlds... the problem I see is community and content [12:12] Arielle Popstar: in what way Robert? [12:12] Arielle Popstar: security? [12:13] Misterblue Waves: we all are here because of the OS community... we could all split up into lots of little grids and worlds and that would dissipate the energy [12:14] Misterblue Waves: grids work when there are lots of people [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: A web client is a worthwhile project, but most people's computers/browsers/etc. haven't yet gotten to the point where you can do it as well as a thick client. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: i agree Robert  but  think it is not  justy based  on the  community  but also the ones  developing [12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Sinewave's Space is a great example. They have a web viewer via Unity, and it works pretty well. But most user opt to download and use the thick client. [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Grids work best when there are lots of people using them. That's another topic. [12:14] Arielle Popstar: they in effect are the leaders [12:15] Arielle Popstar: even a hyper grid of worlds can have community if there is ongoing efforts to continue development [12:16] Arielle Popstar: seems to me the thick client are still faster and more powerful [12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: That will change eventually, but not yet. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: whereas the web based are more for tourists then actual inworld building [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Web based clients can lower the bar on trying out a vw. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: yes true Andrew [12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: And there's a huge focus on VR for a lot of new entrants in the VW ring. Until VR headsets become more appealing to consumers, that's kinda gonna put a crimp in things like community building. [12:18] Misterblue Waves: what VR means in the long run is an open question [12:18] Arielle Popstar: yes [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Very much so. [12:18] Arielle Popstar: really depends where the technology goes and  how  fast [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: There are new entrants to the headset market coming, and they'll be cheaper. But nobody knows how good of an experience they'll provide yet. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: As long as headsets are somewhat large and bulky VR isn't going to catch on with the mainstream user. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: i run lumiya on a $10  headset  with  bluetooth  mouse   and its  cool [12:19] Arielle Popstar: but not  for long  term [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: $10 headset? [12:19] Misterblue Waves: I love Lumiya [12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: The Windows Creator update will have support for those new VR headsets, although it's a little buried at the moment. The next update will probably have a major focus on it. [12:19] Arielle Popstar: yes she is doing  amazing things with it [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: We're talking $200-300 USD from companies like Acer, Dell, and a few others. [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: That's the promise, anyway. [12:21] Arielle Popstar: thing is the desktops and laptops are slowing in sales and tablets and phones picking up [12:21] Arielle Popstar: people going to want to use those for VR imo [12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile will provide a very different VR experience than one hooked up to a decent computer. It's more suitable for things like tours or VR movies than for VWs. [12:22] Misterblue Waves: I tend to think that browser based VWs is good for tablets and mobile while dedicated is good for desktop and headsets (when you need the resolution and speed) [12:23] Misterblue Waves: I know there are utility reasons for web based VWs also (ease of installation) [12:23] Arielle Popstar: mmm, my new  LG 5 does  pretty good with Lumiya and opensim [12:23] Marcus Llewellyn: So does my old Nexus 9. :) But compared to the full viewer, there's no contest in terms of quality, speed, features, etc. [12:23] Misterblue Waves: but keeping the same VW with many different 'connections' to it (dedicated, mobile, chat, ...) is more universally usable [12:23] Arielle Popstar: more cores in my phone then in my current laptop [12:24] Kayaker Magic: Is Lumiya under active development? Are new features added, new versions come out often? [12:24] Arielle Popstar: Yes Andrew [12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Mobile SOC cores are a tricky thing. [12:24] Arielle Popstar: best $3  i spent on Google play [12:25] Arielle Popstar: oh sorry Kayaker :) [12:26] Arielle Popstar: is anyone currently working  on a web based  Opensim? [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: MOSES still is, as far as I know. [12:26] Arielle Popstar: wish they would get HG  back in :( [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, guess that's Halcyon based. [12:27] Misterblue Waves: yes MOSES (working with inWorldz/Halcyon) is working on a viewer [12:27] Arielle Popstar: every fork other then Freakys  drops  HG [12:27] Misterblue Waves: they are defining their own protocol so it's not a general solution [12:27] Kayaker Magic: MOSES has changed the protocol for their web based Halcyon viewer, so it will not work with Opensim unless one of our developers adds that protocol [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: They are? That is going to make their work even less compatible with the main OS code base. [12:28] Misterblue Waves: I've been playing with building my own that will work with OS, but it requires a lot of content manipulation work with with WebGL [12:28] Marcus Llewellyn: I'd assume a new protocol stack would be requisite for a proper web client. I mean, you could shoehorn LLUDP into websockets with effort, but that seems like a wierd way to go. [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:29] Kayaker Magic: Everybody hates the LL viewer protocol, but the TPV people are not interested in changing that. [12:30] Misterblue Waves: I was going to build a converter that talks LLLP (Linden Lab Legacy Protocol) on one side and an optimized protocol on the other -- need a different asset representation as well as better LOD support [12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: It needs cooperation between the viewer end and the back end code. [12:30] Arielle Popstar: at least on the LL  they have a community of people that will use it [12:30] Marcus Llewellyn: That's because 99.9% of te TPV devs aren't protocol level people. Their projects are highly dependent on upstream code from LL> [12:30] Kayaker Magic: Only MOSES had an opportunity to break away. with their own viewer. [12:31] Marcus Llewellyn: I've always been of the opinion that as long as OpenSim doesn't have it's own viewer, in whatever form, it's only half a project. [12:32] Arielle Popstar: hmm i would  hate to see Opensim down to having only one choice for viewer [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: There is talk of an OS specific viewer but that would still be down the road aways. [12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, I've heard.... rumbles. ;) [12:33] Misterblue Waves: who's doing the rumbles, Marcus? [12:33] Arielle Popstar: if there was to be a seperate ops viewer then i would hope because there would be more inworld building tools [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Wonderful. Now the temp has dropped 2 degrees and I see it saying its raining. [12:33] Arielle Popstar: keep it where you are Andrew [12:33] Arielle Popstar: I have outside chores to do yet [12:34] Marcus Llewellyn: I won't say, cuz the person doing the rumbling has been very non-commital and secretive. Sooo... I'd just be sharing vapor right now. [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Areille, I don't want it where I am. [12:34] Arielle Popstar: vapor ware [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Hopefully not. Doesn't hurt to keep an eye open. :) [12:35] Arielle Popstar: true [12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, one never knows. [12:35] Arielle Popstar: doing anymore on Bullet Robert? [12:35] Misterblue Waves: haven't done anything in a while [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If the person(s) wanting to do an OS specific viewer can also get some financial support that can help encourage them to work on it if they otherwise need to get other paid work that might prevent them from working on a viewer. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: if I was to get back into it, I'd want to rearchitect is so it handles linksets and dynamics better while also simplifying the interface between the C# and C++ code [12:37] Arielle Popstar: big project? [12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been thinking of setting up a Patreon account to see if I could get a few $'s to help pay the bills based on all the Open Source projects I work on and support. [12:37] Misterblue Waves: keeping backward compatibilty for all the OS simulator modules is holding back adding new features [12:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Justin used to accept donations. I forget which service he used. [12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, back when I last looked at some of the code re: linksets I saw the potential for some optimization. [12:38] Misterblue Waves: there have been several efforts to fund work... I don't remember all the details, though [12:38] Marcus Llewellyn: Hierarchical linksets! :D [12:38] Arielle Popstar: IMA is looking to do that [12:39] Arielle Popstar: might be worth checking  out [12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm involved in 2 major Open Source projects and help support them via IRC channels along with helping run a grid and supporting others. [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the interface for linksets between the simulator and the physics engine needs to be changed (like was done in Aurora) where the linkset is defined all at once rather than individual prim link calls.... that makes object state hard to manage [12:39] Misterblue Waves: the definition of linksets is simple for content creators but difficult for implementation [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, I noticed a lot of linking and unlinking that seemed a waste when dealing with manipulating link sets. it was done on a per prim basis. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Linking two sets of prims should just be little more than adding one linkset to the end of other other and updating a few link numbers for the prims. [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: and probably position/rotation data for the new child prims. [12:41] Arielle Popstar: Robert, IMA is open to doing testing etc if you did decide to go further on that [12:41] Misterblue Waves: exactly Andrew... linksets should have a link/delink interface for the content creator but should be whole object to the simulator internals [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: It should not need to delink a prim and add the prim one at a time. [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, that stuff is buried in the SOP/SOG code. [12:41] Marcus Llewellyn: As a user, that process is a noticable one at times. [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I also notice it at times as a builder. [12:42] Misterblue Waves would love to rewrite a lot of OS internals... but that's close to starting over :) [12:42] Arielle Popstar: ;)\ [12:42] Marcus Llewellyn: BlueSim! >:D [12:43] Arielle Popstar: Hehe [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: The linking code is a smaller set of changes isolated to a few files. [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, sounds like one more pot for your stove. :) [12:43] Misterblue Waves: and my wife would like to see me sometimes :) [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: a couple people are  actually  in process of redoing everything but as a solo project that would be a huge undertaking [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Sit on the couch beside her while you are coding and she can see you. ;) [12:44] Arielle Popstar: present but not quite  present [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: She can visit you inworld. ;) [12:45] Arielle Popstar: meet you inworld [12:45] Misterblue Waves: I'm sure that would go over well ;-) [12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: teehee [12:45] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:46] Arielle Popstar: anyway interesting discussion [12:47] Arielle Popstar: glad it went  in overtime   because  i think there was  some good info  put  out [12:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Best to you and your family, Andrew.