Chat log from the meeting on 2009-12-08



[10:59] Warin Cascabel is Online [11:01] Sally Green: uups wo bin ich [11:01] dz ozb: aloha all [11:01] Warin Cascabel: Hello, dz. [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya how odd no audio in imprudence for videos [11:01] Friendly Harbour: hello everyone [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hello ladies and gentlemen [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: Warin were you on Windows or Linux? [11:01] Nalani Moleno: hi dz [11:01]  Warin Cascabel: Entschuldigung, Sally; ich kann nicht Deutsch sprechen. [11:01] Warin Cascabel: Windows at the moment, Nebadon [11:01] Warin Cascabel: Hello, everyone. [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: k ya me too [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: bummer [11:02] Sally Green: ja sehr gurt [11:02] dz ozb: what are you looking for neb? Im almoast all linux here [11:02] Penny Lane: Hi JCC [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hey penny [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ah i had issues with Imprudence [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt appear to play audio for videos [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: both warin and i couldnt hear anything from video playing [11:04] Penny Lane: Linux here too, what do you need Neb? Music is working in Imprudence fine for me here [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i switched to hippo its fine [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: not music [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: video [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: had no audio track [11:04] dz ozb: the ausio portion of the media [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya not the radio station [11:04] Penny Lane: Working here. Not keen on the Xmas music though :P [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: that did work [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not what was broken Penny [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: it was video [11:04] Sarvana Cherry is Online [11:05] Penny Lane: Ah right. Lemme look at video. [11:05] dz ozb: what are you using for the video codec stuff gstreamer? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: this is youtube [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: playing direct from youtube [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i beleive they use AAC [11:05] Penny Lane: Video's working fine for me on Imprudence, Neb. [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: you hear audio? [11:05] Penny Lane: Yep [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya ok must be windows only then [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Warin couldnt hear it either [11:06] Zauber Paracelsus: Good afternoon, folks [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: plays ok for me in Hippo though [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello Zauber [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: so whats going on?? anyone have anything they want to talk about? [11:07] Penny Lane: 20 FPS here on Imprudence on a laptop, with video playing. [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its possible its because im 64 bit windows too [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if they are using quicktime or gstreamer [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: im guessing its gstreamer [11:07] Warin Cascabel: Well, I'm 32-bit Windows, and didn't hear it. [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: they must be using gstreamer then [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: quicktime has no problem playing these [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: though i dont recall having trouble in Meerkat [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: could just be a bug or something [11:09] Warin Cascabel: My frame rate's a hell of a lot better in Linux, that's for sure. I'm getting 8.6 on Windows, 29.4 on Linux [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: strange [11:09] Zauber Paracelsus: Linux handles multitasking better [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno about that [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: its about teh same really [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it shouldnt effect FPS that bad [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: unless you have multiple viewers running on same machine [11:10] Penny Lane: I poked the two KDU libs into Imprudence to overcome the OpenJPEG memory leak. I don't see how that can be related to audio, but that's the only change I made from stock Impru 1.2.1 release. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya i did replace kdu on imprudence [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: took it from SL viewer [11:10] Penny Lane: Yeah [11:10] Zauber Paracelsus: A friend of mine has a quad core that can barely handle two clients running at once, and my dual core can easily handle 5 clients. If I had more alts in Second Life, I'd see how far I could push it :D [11:11] Zauber Paracelsus has all those alts because of Tiny Empires [11:11] Penny Lane: Anyway, the mega super wonderful thing about Imprudence is that if doesn't crash here, hehe. Ever, so far. :-) [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: so what else is going on anyone have anything simulator related? [11:12]  Zauber Paracelsus: What's the current state of git head compared to 0.6.7-post-fixes? [11:12]  Friendly Harbour: dont jinx it Penny! [11:12]  Penny Lane: Haha [11:12]  Warin Cascabel: Yeah, I updated this morning, and moving anything into a subfolder in inventory immediately crashes my region. [11:12]  Penny Lane waves at Friendly [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not tried post-fixes [11:12]  dz ozb: is there a recommends sandbox for testing scripts against the latest release? [11:12]  Zauber Paracelsus: 90% of the time I'm crashing is when I'm NOT using Cool Viewer [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: heh well we always recommend you run your own sandbox for testing [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: but if you dont have your own you can use the Sandbox Plazas [11:12]  Zauber Paracelsus: that reminds me, is the timer event not supported yet in DotNetEngine? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: DotNetEngine has been removed [11:13] Zauber Paracelsus: ah [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: it has not been maintained in over a year [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so it was removed [11:13] Zauber Paracelsus: it's still in 0.6.7-post-fixes [11:13] Zauber Paracelsus: Oh, I see [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: actually its creator deemed it dead about 1.5 years ago [11:14] Zauber Paracelsus: oy [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: it just took a while to have it removed [11:14] Zauber Paracelsus: I've been having issues with XEngine, which is why I tried using it [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: Xengine is far superior [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of problems? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and beleive me changing to dotnet would not fix them likely [11:14] Zauber Paracelsus: segmentation fault when restarting or shutting down the simulator [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it would likely create more issues [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats wierd [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats likely a mono issue [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: what version of mono? [11:14] Warin Cascabel: I had those for a while, but they've stopped. [11:14] Zauber Paracelsus: let me check [11:15] Zauber Paracelsus: 2.5-1 [11:15] Zauber Paracelsus: forgot I had done that... [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i would switch to 2.4.2.3 [11:15] Zauber Paracelsus: That was at least half a year ago [11:15] Zauber Paracelsus: I'll downgrade to stable to see if it's still occuring [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or update maybe to mono Trunk [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: which is like v 2.7 [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: or something [11:16] Warin Cascabel: 2.5 was out six months ago? Dang, I'm really behind. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya mono trunk is 2.7 now [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: next release is 2.8 [11:16] Zauber Paracelsus: yeah, but 2.5 was still in development then [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya 2.5 is like alpha version [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: its probably got some bugs [11:17] Zauber Paracelsus: there had been something specific in mono 2.5 that had made me install it, though. Some bugfix or efficiency/memory improvement, I think [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya alot of fixes were back ported from 2.4.1 to 2.4.2.3 [11:17] Zauber Paracelsus: Ah, ok [11:18]  Marcus Llewellyn: I stick to mono stable. I figure, why compound my troubleshooting with not just one platform (OSim) but two? (Osim and Mono) [11:18] Zauber Paracelsus: ok [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we recommend you stick to stable [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and only run short tests on the trunk versions [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: with the intent or reporting bugs to mono etc.. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise just stick on stable versions [11:19] Zauber Paracelsus: btw, would it be possible to backport the jpeg2000 library changes to 0.6.7-postfix, or give me instructions on how to merge it in? I'm still very new (a few days) to git [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: no its not possible really [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: 0.6.8 will be out soon [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i dont recommend that [11:19] Zauber Paracelsus: okay [11:19] Zauber Paracelsus: How soon do you expect, Justin? [11:19] Strawberry Fride: evenin [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: C2J2J us much more efficient [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefulyl about a week. definitely before xmas [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: C2J2K [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hi strawberry [11:19] Friendly Harbour: hello strawberry [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: openjpeg requires a deocding cache [11:19] Zauber Paracelsus: how well does C2J2K work under 64bit Linux? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it works ok [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it will throw some warnings [11:20] Zauber Paracelsus: ok [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: this region is x64 linux [11:20] Friendly Harbour: what are the main points left before 0.6.8.can be released? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: if thats any indicator how it works [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I want to get to the bottom of Ai Austin's user-message server comms problem. There's a hypergrid bug - those are the main two issues, I think [11:20] BlueWall Slade: it clears up the visible issues [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hello Strawberry :) [11:20]  Strawberry Fride: there's only one thing that bugs me on 0.6.8 which I would love to fix which is the hypergrid bug [11:20]  Strawberry Fride: but I can get round that one... [11:21]  Strawberry Fride: planning a move for ReactionGrid on Thursday to 0.6.8 [11:21]  Zauber Paracelsus: what's the hypergrid bug? [11:21]  Strawberry Fride: fingers crossed :) [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thing is you will get it fixed [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: strawvberry: did you get a chance to look at a possible fix any further? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: then Melanie will release HG2 [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:21] Strawberry Fride: I have not had chance to do much today - still fishing for right place in code but it's like a labyrinth [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt rack your brain to hard on saving HG1 [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I do regard hg as experimental, so ultimately I would do 0.6.8 with it broken if nobody can fix it [11:21]  Marcus Llewellyn: Is HG2 very far off yet? [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it can always be fixed in a 0.6.8.1 or something [11:21] Zauber Paracelsus: well, if you can fix, fix it, lol [11:21] BlueWall Slade: I have seen some messages about regions failing to de-register with the grid service on my test grid [11:22] Strawberry Fride: it's that if you don't have an asseturi or inventoryuri stored in users table then you get a heap of asset retrieval bugs if you run in HG enabled mode [11:22] Strawberry Fride: if you fill in those values, you're fine [11:22] BlueWall Slade: I'm pretty sure is some config thing, but it is eluding me [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: i forced that on OSgrid few months back [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i ran a query and fixed the entire grid [11:22] Strawberry Fride: that's all it is - and I can work round that one [11:22] BlueWall Slade: I do that too [11:22] Strawberry Fride: ai austin's bug is mildly concerning but I haven't seen it on my grids yet [11:22] Strawberry Fride: my dev grids [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: there's no easy fix [11:23] Strawberry Fride: agreed justin [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: I presume? [11:23] Strawberry Fride: user login service has no knowledge of asset or inventory server details... I think [11:23] Strawberry Fride: so it's gonna be dirty [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, ultimately if austin's prob is simply non-fixable I'll take the risk and go ahead [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: well its probably fixable [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: but not in a practicle manner [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: as HG2 is on the way [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: I'm susprised this doesn't work otherwise I would have thought all the hg people would have explained by now [11:23] Strawberry Fride: yeah - it's a bandaid [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and i hear also that Cable Beach 2 [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: is also just as capable as HG2 [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey shrugs [11:24] Mic Bowman: good morning all [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hey Mic [11:24] Mic Bowman: re: CB... [11:24] Mic Bowman: it does a lot of the same things [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, well if hg isn't resolvable I shall toss that in the mailing lists and if nobody fixes I'll explicitly say there may be problems with it in 0.6.8 [11:24] Mic Bowman: TP's are different [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya i was actually quoting you there Mic [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: hi mic [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: your timing was awesome [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:24] Mic Bowman: hi justin [11:24] Mic Bowman: just heard my name in premonition [11:24] Mic Bowman: or something [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess the big question is how will CB2 and HG2 work together? [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: do you think that you'll get any more time to look at a possible hg patch in the next couple of days? [11:26] BlueWall Slade: will they work with current viewers? [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: so what is 'HG2' anyway? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i beleieve so BlueWall [11:26] BlueWall Slade: awesome [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: new Hypergrid version [11:26] Penny Lane: Asset serving's very likely to be heading in the direction of Cable Beach, because Hurlican is like the tide, you don't get to sweep it back. ^_^ [11:26] Strawberry Fride: yes Justin [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: is this the existing work diva was doing with the viewer proxy? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: HyperGrid v2 [11:26]  Mic Bowman: what do you mean by viewer change? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure it effets the viewers at all [11:27] Penny Lane: HG2 is allegedly HG + perms. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: it will all be part of OpenSim Core [11:27] Mic Bowman: john & i have a TP usage that would work if you could send a login uri into a running viewer [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I havne't seen anything in the OpenSim codebase for any hg2 yet [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its been going in, but i dont think anything is active yet [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: Diva and Melanie are finishing Robust stuff [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: then HG2 [11:27] BlueWall Slade: heh, that sounds pretty cool Mic [11:27] Penny Lane: Diva said she'd get onto HG2 Q1 of 2010, she expects. [11:28] Mic Bowman: your OpenID credentials are maintained in the browser [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i think it requires presence server [11:28] Mic Bowman: then you drive cross-grid TPs through the web browser [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: to finalize the new hypergrid services [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: so they are working on that now [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: we would have to ask Melanie and Diva where things stand though [11:28] Mic Bowman: you can use in-world URLs to make it more transparent [11:29] Mic Bowman: is anyone seeing texture downloads hanging when a sim is under load? [11:29] Zauber Paracelsus: I'm going to log out for now. Are the meeting logs posted anywhere after the meeting is over? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya on the wiki [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will post it [11:30]  Zauber Paracelsus: alright, thx [11:30] Mic Bowman: We have some pretty detailed logs from Shenlei's conference... lots of texture resends [11:30] Zauber Paracelsus: Are you on twitter, Nebadon? [11:30] Tesira Luco is Offline [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive noticed that too [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: http://twitter.com/osgrid [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: only place i twitter [11:30] Zauber Paracelsus: ok [11:30]  Zauber Paracelsus: thx [11:30] Mic Bowman: texture downloads that never complete but never stop sending... [11:31] psyhotox25pl Neox: hay [11:31] Zauber Paracelsus: see you folks and have fun! [11:31] Warin Cascabel: Mic, is that on a 64-bit server? [11:31] psyhotox25pl Neox: wer I bay land [11:31] Rich Enoch: hi [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: Mic have you guys noticed prims and scripts returning that were erased? [11:31] psyhotox25pl Neox: or somtyng [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: once you restart simulators [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: stuff not sticking etc.. [11:31] Mic Bowman: no [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: we have been here on OSgrid [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: textures reverting etc.. [11:32] Mic Bowman: and we've been continuing to do a bunch "big" builds [11:32] psyhotox25pl Neox: I wont bay sim or somting we som grand for sell or somting [11:32] BlueWall Slade: I have heard about that, not seen it though [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but sometimes its older things too its wierd like stuff you did an hour ago is reverted [11:32] dz ozb: laughs [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but everything since then stayed [11:32] Mic Bowman: oh thats not good [11:32] Mic Bowman: was it with link sets? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive see certain things can trigger it [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:33] Warin Cascabel: Also happens on unlinked prims for me. [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: one trigger is rename things in linkset [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: like rename a script in a child prim [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: restart sim and its gone [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: or reverted [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: dropping 2 scripts into a prim at one time [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: also seems to be bad in linksets [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes even on single prims [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: what it seems to me like is happening, is if you get building fast [11:34] dz ozb: there are a lot of things wrong with link sets now [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: things sorta queue up [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: and if you keep adding things before its cleared out [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: it goes whackky [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: like if you see the console sending items to inventory [11:34] Mic Bowman: have you checked what's getting written to the database? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and you link something [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: while thats happening [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: then rename a script inside the linkset [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: before the inventory task finishes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: which sometimes can take 5-10 minutes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: anything during that time is whacked [11:35] BlueWall Slade: the texture data is a blob [11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: I've always found large linksets quirky. Get over 15-20 or so linked objects, and you get this feeling that there's a sort of lag interfering with your build. [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its like the queue things is being mangled [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: that doesnt happen for me until I hit about 400 prims ina linkset [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: about the best way i can describe what i feel is happening [11:36] Mic Bowman: there's still (or at leastwas last time dan looked at it) a bunch of linear searches through link sets [11:36] dz ozb: i ahave troublw with 2 prim linksets....if you shift copy them random prims of the "now" 4 will be pahntom and impossible to turn physical again [11:36] Kally Rakan: I've seen that if you delete a bunch of stuff every item is put into your trash one at a time. It looks like a whole round trip to the inventory server for each single item [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: I tend to build everything in place and then link it up though [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: I asked melanie to swing by [11:36]  Warin Cascabel: Agreed, Kally - I usually link large collections of objects prior to deleting them. [11:36] Kally Rakan: it can be astonishingly slow [11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Ditto, Hiro... I think that's standard OP not to link until after a certain point for most people used to building on OS. [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but she is working on something else at the moment but will try to swing by [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: objects are being deleted one at a time by a background mechanism - this probably would be something to improve [11:37] dz ozb: i cant do that with large linksets... i found that by linking each new prim to the linkset...the time for the link was minimized and i could run automated builds faster [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: nods this is all one-off hand-work [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats another bad trigger [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: say you link 200 prims [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: while then link another 200 prims real fast [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: keep linking big blocks of prims [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: thats a disaster [11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: I've viewed the curent state of linked objects in OS as sorta "good enough", but would welcome an improvement at some point, for sure. [11:38] Warin Cascabel: One interesting thing that recently started happening is, if I link an existing linkset into another linkset, if I unlink the larger set, the "child" linkset often comes out of it still linked together. Not sure if that's intended behavior or not. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: you really have to watch the console [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure its nice and quiet before doing the next step [11:39] Marcus Llewellyn: I'll confirm that behavior, Warin. [11:39] Warin Cascabel: But if we're starting to get hierarchical linksets, that would be awesome. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: Warin that is intendted behavior for certain veiwers [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: it's a step in the direction of hierarchical linksets coming into play I believe [11:39] Penny Lane: Linksets are just a step on the way to hierarchical objects really. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: we are nesting linksets in mega linksets [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: so it might have to be unlinked several times [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: to totally unlink the whole thing [11:39] Warin Cascabel: Oh, good - I look forward to being able to rotate a whole cluster of prims at once. :) [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: probably whats happening is some interplay in that subsystem and the older bits that are still around [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i think only Hippo supports that behavior [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: to create mega linksets [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i know meerkat did not [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i really dont know if other viewers do though [11:40]  Marcus Llewellyn: I do not beleive Emerald or Imprudence support them either. [11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: I think I had to use hippo to do the harley [11:41]  Warin Cascabel: I don't understand how it would be a viewer-related thing - isn't the linkset maintained by the server? [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ive only ever done it with hippo myself [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: strawvberry: actually, I'm probaly going to send a msg to the dev ml about the hypergrid issue very soon just to see who wants to help address it. If no-one has the time ithink that I'm going to go ahead on 0.6.8 without resolving that particular problem [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not sure why the other viewers dont allow it [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i can only assume the lindens artificially block it some how [11:41] dz ozb: ive not had any issues with hippo and linksets over 2500 prims once i get them linked [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the other viewers can handle them [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and even unlink them [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it just can not make them [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: yeah I can ride the harley with any of the clients - just not link that final linkset [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya if anyone is interested in trying some cool new vehicle stuff you can visit my sandbox [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: "OKC Sandbox" [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we have some crazy vehicles there [11:44] Strawberry Fride: Justin - good plan :) [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: all the bleeding edge vehicle work is there [11:44]  Marcus Llewellyn is still waiting on Deathrace to go live. ;) [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya its getting there marcus [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: still some LSL events that dont work [11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Hehe [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: well, except for the 60m sailing ships [11:44] Bartholomew Kleiber: @nebadon, hiro: cool! [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that are preventing a higher class of vehicles [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but what we have is pretty fun [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: those are at 'Vehicle Load Test' [11:45] ARADTech KoolKam: yup very kool stuff neb I wa playing there the other da :) [11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: +copy, ftw [11:45]  Marcus Llewellyn: yay! [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i found out why my racer perms were borked [11:45]  dz ozb: the events that are still missing include the "remove " vehicle attribute functions? [11:45]  ARADTech KoolKam: is thatboat scripts Hiro ? [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone who wants swing by later today [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: i will have a full perms version available [11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: the sampan there is big enough to put a two storey house inside of, and it sails quite handily [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: found some hidden scripts in tiny prims i couldnt see [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: its crazy though we had 500 prim vehicles driving around [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: felt almost like it was the same as driving 1 cube around [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: though rezzing a few of them at once was pretty harsh [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: still though, we are very close to having vehicles almost 1:1 with SL [11:47]  Marcus Llewellyn: That'll make many people *very* happy. [11:47] Bartholomew Kleiber: indeed [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: well [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: cars [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: not vehicles in general [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: air vehicles do not work at all yet [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but cars and boats are coming along nicely [11:48] ARADTech KoolKam: goo d start :) [11:48]  Hiro Protagonist: and we need the ability to move physics state from one region to another [11:48]  Marcus Llewellyn: The sailing groupies are a fairly significant group. ;) [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya but mega regions have made things a bit more interesting [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: definitely [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: until we get borders worked out [11:48] ARADTech KoolKam: yes [11:49] Mic Bowman accepted your inventory offer. [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: the only vehicle people we cant really accomodate right now are the true grid voyagers [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: and even when I was doing that on SL, I rarely encountered anyone else doing it [11:50]  Marcus Llewellyn: Wait until people want to sail from grid to grid in a vehicle. ;) [11:50] dz ozb: SL was never great on region crossing ... [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: heh, I used to do that some but the ban-lines kill you [11:50]  Warin Cascabel: Heh, Marcus [11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: I got very good at sticking to the protected land zones [11:51]  Hiro Protagonist: after you do it a few times, you learn where the are [11:51]  Hiro Protagonist: worse was the region border fences [11:51]  Hiro Protagonist: which is what finally killed it for me [11:51]  Penny Lane: Hiro: the fact that we continually get stuck in between zones when voyaging in vehicles in SL would account for that. It's not a lot of fun :-) [11:51] Melanie Milland is Online [11:51] Penny Lane: They've never really got it working well. [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: I never really got stuck like that a lot Penny [11:51] BlueWall Slade: has anyone been placing megaregions adjacent to non-mega regions or other megaregions? [11:52] Hiro Protagonist: I just placed a 2x2 next to a 3x3 [11:52] Warin Cascabel: Yes, unfortunately there's one bordering Lbsa Plaza, BlueWall. [11:52] BlueWall Slade: crossing into it is a little different?? [11:52] Mic Bowman: we have several like that in scisim [11:52] Warin Cascabel: Yes, it causes issues. [11:53] Mic Bowman: a bunch of *weird* stuff happens [11:53] BlueWall Slade: in my old spots? [11:53] Penny Lane: Hiro: in balloons, I'd get the sim thinking I'm in one zone while the client thinks I'm in another, at negative altitude. [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: it seems to from lbsa plaza [11:53] Warin Cascabel: On the other side, south of the plaza. [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: the two I have next to each other work pretty much as one might expect [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: hmm this region is freaking out [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is spewing on console [11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: I have an problem TPing from a non-mega to a mega. The anchor region stays invisible, as does my AV. Is this a known issue? [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: your mega is out beyonf the 4096m range of your tp [11:53]  Melanie Milland: i couldn't move [11:54] Melanie Milland: but i could sit [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: I had the same problem, moving it closer to the rest of the world fixed it right up [11:54]  Melanie Milland: to get in here [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think ODE is dead [11:54] Warin Cascabel: Sim fps is down to 3. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its spewing bad [11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: Ah, I see. It wasn't my mega, but I see the problem. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i'll save some of the spew for everyone [11:54] Warin Cascabel: Still got a time dilation of 1.00, amusingly enough. [11:54] BlueWall Slade: that is afake, I think [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: yep [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: I think JHurlicane left it that way [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.ca/1707314 [11:55] BlueWall Slade: it's like the speedo hand painted at 120MPH [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: enjoy some spew chunks [11:55] Warin Cascabel: Heh [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: lol [11:55] Penny Lane: Can physics be restarted separately? [11:55] Melanie Milland: no [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: not currently [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie I think there were some questions about HG2 [11:56] BlueWall Slade: nothing can, I think [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya was hoping you could shed some light on where RObust and HG2 were heading [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: it would be cool if we could do that [11:56] Melanie Milland: well, in a nutshell [11:57] Melanie Milland: robust is going to split the gigantic complex of the user/presence/authentication system into smaller, modular chunks [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: prioblm looks like another attempt to use the Animator when it has gone away. You'll wan tto mention it to Teravus [11:57] Penny Lane: With ROBUST, separate service restart and reconnection is possible, just not coded yet, is that right? [11:57] Melanie Milland: this means that a robust shell can be run in at least 3 modes [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ok will do Justin [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: I might bung in a quick null check myself along the lines that Teravus has done for the others too [11:57] Melanie Milland: one is as an authentication provider [11:57] Melanie Milland: two, as an avatar storage system [11:58] Melanie Milland: thre, as grid servers [11:58] Melanie Milland: at the moment, we only use the latter [11:58] Melanie Milland: in this mode, ROBUST probides asset and inventory services for a grid [11:58] Melanie Milland: the idea is to have "identity providers" [11:58] Melanie Milland: they can be your ISP [11:58] Melanie Milland: you yourself [11:59] Melanie Milland: dedicated identity hosters [11:59] Melanie Milland: or anything else [11:59] Melanie Milland: a grid can also be one [11:59] Melanie Milland: the purpose of the identity provider is to hold your user account data, profile, avatar,, personal inventory, attachments and states, appearance, etc [11:59] Diva Canto is Online [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: do you have a timeframe for this? The halfway house we have for ROBUST at the moment (where user and grid are still separate exes) is embarassing [12:00] Melanie Milland: it's actually being worked on and a sprint is expected to start after xmas [12:00] Melanie Milland: anyway [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: er sorry, grid isn't, byt the message service is [12:00]  Diva Canto is Offline [12:00] BlueWall Slade: ((I have to step away - I'll park here and leave teh meter running)) [12:00] Melanie Milland: another mode is authentication provider [12:01] Mic Bowman: melanie... is there any documentation on this? just want to see how it's going to work with CB [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: you're not doing this in the open? [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, can we have a disucssion on the ml beforehand? [12:01] Diva Canto is Online [12:01] Melanie Milland: where a robust shall, running an authentication service, can provide trust services for one or more grids [12:01] Diva Canto: hi all, I'm here but I can't seem to move [12:01] Melanie Milland: and thridly, providing grid level inventory and asset services as well as mapping [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: cam up and sit Diva [12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: ODE is having a hissy fit, Diva. :P [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: diva: physics is down, Diva [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we lost physics [12:01] Melanie Milland: and this happens in the open [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: Hi Diva, just grab a seat - ODE is on the fritz atm [12:02] Penny Lane: Melanie: The identity provider shouldn't be coupled to the other things in that list. Identity is quite separate from inventory for example. [12:02] Melanie Milland: i always commit early and often [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: yes, but we need a higher level overview [12:02] Melanie Milland: penny: the ROBUST shell lets you mix and match services [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: we've alreayd seen the problems before where that did not occur [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im sure Diva can add to this as well [12:03] Melanie Milland: justin: right now we're only transliterating the current services into ROBUST. until we have the existing functionality in ROBUST, we can't move forward [12:03] Penny Lane waves at the immobile Diva ;-) [12:03]  Melanie Milland: it's diva's hairball [12:03]  Marcus Llewellyn: As a non-dev, my take-away from ROBUSt is inter-grid decentralization of services. Yes? [12:03]  Melanie Milland: marcus: yes [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: ok. [12:03]  Marcus Llewellyn nods amiably. [12:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald is Online [12:03]  Melanie Milland: justin: diva will take more of an architectural role once we leave grid proper and enter HG2 [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't mind where the high level overview comes from, just as long as someone throws some light on where they're trying to take us [12:04]  Diva Canto: what is unclear? [12:04]  Diva Canto: (sorry to drop at the end of the meeting) [12:04]  Melanie Milland: diva: the rile of new robust services in the context of HG2 [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: what hg2 even is - this is the first time I've head of it today [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: no problem diva we can keep chatting for a bit [12:04] Melanie Milland: role* [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: probably because I don't frequent irc all the the time [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: theres really no limit we tend to always run a bit long [12:04] Mic Bowman: i'd like to see what's proposed so we can do a better job of making sure whats already running in CB works well with what's coming [12:04] Diva Canto: well, ROBUST and hg2 are 2 differernt things [12:04] Penny Lane: Chat away Diva, the longer the better :P [12:05] Diva Canto: robust is a software architecture that allows for a lot more flexibility on the kinds of services that are plugged in to the servers [12:05] Diva Canto: for example [12:05] Diva Canto: if I tried to implement a new login procedure right now, I would have to severely modify the user server and god know what elkse... [12:06] Diva Canto: HG2 needs a new login procedure [12:06] Diva Canto: and so do other ideas [12:06] Melanie Milland: the role of ROBUST is as a server shell to hold these new services [12:06] Diva Canto: so we need to have that kind of flexibility in the software in order to move forwrda [12:06] Melanie Milland: and intefaces to allow interoperation between them [12:06] Melanie Milland: either local or remote [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: diva: you're planning tomake hg2 part of core? [12:06] Diva Canto: not right now, Justin [12:06] Diva Canto: HG2 also needs a lot of work on the client side [12:07] Diva Canto: in fact most of the interesting stuff in HG2 happens on the client side [12:07] Diva Canto: client-side TPs [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: is this still the basic idea that the client access much more directly, or is somewhat different now [12:07] Kally Rakan: so quite a few projects are stalled until robust is fully working? [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey nods [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: ? [12:07] Diva Canto: and caps inventory [12:07] Diva Canto: and direct access to a lot of other services [12:07] Melanie Milland: one of the key differences between HG and HG2 is that you have client-managed inventory (on a ROBUST shell, possibly [12:08]  Diva Canto: but basically what a more secure system needs from OpenSim is flexibility; login procedures for example [12:08]  Melanie Milland: that belongs to YOU [12:08]  Melanie Milland: not a grid [12:08]  Penny Lane: Agree with Melanie [12:08]  Hiro Protagonist: brilliant [12:08]  Diva Canto: When I started working in Grider (HG2) I started modifying the user server [12:08]  Melanie Milland: so you have an inventory that is yours [12:08]  Melanie Milland: it goes with you [12:08]  Marcus Llewellyn: So, in theory, I could host my own personal inventory server, and take my belongings with me from grid to grid? [12:08]  Diva Canto: and soon I realized that the changes were going to be so extensive that I would better stop [12:09]  Melanie Milland: and you will have access to grid-bound inventories while in that grid [12:09] Diva Canto: all that, yes [12:09] Melanie Milland: so when you TP [12:09]  Melanie Milland: the grid-bound part will change [12:09] Melanie Milland: the personal part will stay [12:09] Melanie Milland: and at NO time will a grid have access to your personal inventory store [12:09] Penny Lane: Proper virtual world tourism, without pre-registering. [12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: How will a user differentiate between grid and non-grid based objects? [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: diva: btw - did you ever get a chance to look at http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4411 ? [12:10] Diva Canto: yes, Justin [12:10] Hiro Protagonist: Marcus: likely from the folder name or icon [12:10] Diva Canto: I should add a note in there [12:10] Melanie Milland: marcus: another "root folder" [12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: That makes sense, Hiro. [12:10] Marcus Llewellyn nods to Melanie. :) [12:10] Kally Rakan: Like the "OpenSim Library" folder? [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you think it's addressable? If not, I would probably push on with 0.6.8 and just warn hg users about a possible problem [12:11]  Diva Canto: in parallel to that one, yes [12:11]  Diva Canto: Justin, yes [12:11]  Diva Canto: it's an easy fix, I just haven't had any time at all for opensim, unfortunately [12:11]  Diva Canto: but I will now [12:11]  Diva Canto: christmas is coming! [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: diva: ok. That would be good, thanks :) [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, tell me about it [12:11]  Friendly Harbour: :) [12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: diva: do you have any timeframe for when ROBUST will be complete? It's a very difficult story at the moment where configuration is split between robust and the old user and message services [12:13]  Strawberry Fride: gotta fly - bit of a load test on 0.6.8 with some customers :) [12:13] Strawberry Fride: will report back on findings [12:13] Diva Canto: I hope before the end of the year! [12:13] Penny Lane: Woot! [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: =D [12:13] Diva Canto: I'll punish myself if that doesn't happen [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: diva: sounds ambitious :) As you say, xmas is coming ;) [12:13] Melanie Milland: don't punish yourself [12:13] Melanie Milland: let me do it! [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: unless you're planning on coding over the turkey.... [12:13] Hiro Protagonist: lol [12:13] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol [12:13] Diva Canto: it needs one week of complete dedication [12:13] Friendly Harbour: lol [12:13] Penny Lane chuckles [12:13] ARADTech KoolKam: hhe [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:13] Diva Canto: 1 week, that's all [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: well im ready for testing :) [12:14]  Diva Canto: of uninterrupted time. No students! [12:14]  ARADTech KoolKam: me too :) [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:14] Penny Lane: How long is the Xmas break? [12:14] Diva Canto: about 2 weeks [12:14] Penny Lane: Ew, short, hehe [12:14] Diva Canto: I just have one more NSF proposal on my queue, then I'm planning to dedicate that one week to opensim [12:15] Diva Canto: starting Dec 18 [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: diva: thanks for the update. I just get a bit nervous when people say 'HG2 is being secretly worked on and will be in core soon' having heard nothing about that before [12:15] Melanie Milland: and i'll be free from dec. 24th [12:15] Penny Lane: I hated writing funding proposals, grrrr [12:15] Melanie Milland: so we have a week or more [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: specially as I think Intel are very interested in how this will play with Cable Beach (hey Mic) [12:15] Kally Rakan: you can tell a real programmer by how they look forward to the holidays so they can *work* ;) [12:15]  Diva Canto: Melanie: any chance you'll have some time starting on the 18? [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i was wondering myself [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why i mentioned it [12:15]  Melanie Milland: 24th, diva [12:15]  Melanie Milland: probably [12:16]  Melanie Milland: sooner if the current project is completed sooner [12:16]  Diva Canto: ok. But at least I will need to know where you are wrt some redesign of preence service [12:16]  Melanie Milland: my commit frequency is down because i'm working on my MMO [12:16]  Diva Canto: yeah, tell me about it... [12:16]  Melanie Milland: well, let's link up fromt he 18th [12:16]  Diva Canto: I've been working on another cool OpenSim project too. [12:16]  Melanie Milland: and i might put out some skels/interfaces [12:16] Penny Lane: JCC: yeah, Hurlican is gearing up to make Cable Beach omnipresent in VWRAP, realXtend, and here. [12:16] Diva Canto: ok, that'd be great. [12:17] Melanie Milland: rex actually would rather work with core features [12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: I"m curious about how many devs have seen the last Naali release, and what they thought of it. [12:17]  Melanie Milland: and drop the cable beach requirement [12:17]  Diva Canto: justin, is 0.6.8 out? [12:17]  Melanie Milland: i have seen it [12:17]  Melanie Milland: it looks promising [12:17]  Melanie Milland: but the UI sux [12:17]  Marcus Llewellyn: Agreed. ;) [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: diva: not yet - I just want to address some final bugs (inlcuding this hg issue) [12:17]  Diva Canto: ok [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: i have seen it, it seems to be improving [12:18]  Penny Lane: Melanie: realXtend are implementing inventories on WebDAV + Cable Beach. [12:18]  Marcus Llewellyn: I view the UI as very alpha... was mostly just glad to see a UI. [12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i would like to be able to see my OSgrid avatar when logged into OSgrid [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Ditto. [12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: And other OSg based AVs as well. [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i think it will come in time [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: long road ahead on the viewers [12:19] Diva Canto: yeah... [12:19]  Diva Canto: the viewers are a major issue. [12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: Nods. I'm an avid watcher of non LL viewers. I feel we really, really need a usable one. [12:20] Diva Canto: I think there is space for many viewers [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya me too [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: Alright, I'm off - thanks for the discussion, folks [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bye [12:20] Diva Canto: most people, most of the time, would be fine using a web-browser-based viewer [12:20] dz ozb: see ya JCC [12:20] Kally Rakan: is there any prospect of other protocols like mxp becoming a match for the LL one? [12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Have a good one, JCC [12:20] Hiro Protagonist: yep - thats the problem - that space is presently a near vaccum from a vendor perspective [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: k Justin thanks for coming :) talk soon [12:20]  Penny Lane: Well it's all-change on the viewer side for VWRAP, and I'm pushing to make that as flexible as possible, even if LL don't like it. [12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll post logs up soon [12:20]  BlueWall Slade: bye Justin [12:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, forgot I can't fly out of here, just going to have to go poof :) [12:21] BlueWall Slade: what was the map server thing this am about? [12:21] BlueWall Slade: in IRC [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh im not sure yet myself either [12:21] Kally Rakan: yuck, browser viewer :P [12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I would prefer a discreet client myself... but the priority for me is cutting the cord from the LL viewer feature set. [12:22] Kally Rakan: that's why I was wondering about things like mxp [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: well cutting the cord might be a bit harsh but theres no reason to have to rely totally upon their viewer [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: their protocol will always be a part hopefully [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: im sure we can expand upon it [12:23]  Marcus Llewellyn: Oh, not saying to dump the baby with the bathwater. Just that it holds us back. [12:23] BlueWall Slade: at least not make it an anchor [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: without cutting any cords [12:23] Penny Lane: We're sort of "cutting the cord" from the old SL feature set officially in VWRAP. It's a good opportunity for getting new things supported. [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but ya independence is a good thing [12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: The licensing issues alone are... irksome. :/ [12:24] BlueWall Slade: lol, switching from the Compuserve terminal to Mosaic was pretty cool [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:24] Penny Lane: As long as features can be selected through caps, pretty much anything is possible in VWRAP, because really it's just a framework protocol. It doesn't tie you to any vendor's worldview. [12:25] Hiro Protagonist: I'm liking a lot I hear about this VWRAP [12:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Does VWRAP have a site? [12:26] Diva Canto accepted your inventory offer. [12:26] Melanie Milland: well, i'm outta here [12:26] Melanie Milland: bye all [12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: B'bye, Melanie. [12:26] Penny Lane: It's progressed a lot since the early days of OGP, which LL really just intended as a way of growing SL. That's history. We're not doing a proper protocol that many worlds can use. [12:26] Penny Lane: Cyu Melanie. [12:26] Hiro Protagonist: me too [12:26] Melanie Milland: youmean "now"? [12:26] Diva Canto: cool Penny [12:27] Marcus Llewellyn: Take care, Hiro [12:27] Hiro Protagonist waves Bye All :) [12:27]  Penny Lane: Contributors to VWRAP welcome, and much desired. CK was helping a little some months agom but he;'s not around much now [12:27]  Diva Canto: (I read "now" :-) [12:27]  Diva Canto: so has VWRAP moved on from being a gentleman's cluc of grids? [12:28]  Diva Canto: club [12:28]  Melanie Milland is Offline [12:28]  Diva Canto: and moved into being a seriously secured open system? [12:28]  Penny Lane: And if you have no time to spend in the IETF group, at least tell *us* what you want, and we'll fight to get it in :-) [12:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Is there a VWRAP draft or something somewhere? [12:29] Penny Lane: Marcus: it's an official IETF working group. It's working on drafts, but don't expect anything soon .... you know committees :-( [12:29] Marcus Llewellyn nods affably. [12:29]  Penny Lane: Lemme find URL for list [12:29]  Marcus Llewellyn: So basically... it's all spottily documented over months of mailing lists. ;) [12:30] Penny Lane: There are original OGP docs already, but the current state is in our heads, yeah :-( [12:30]  Marcus Llewellyn: I see... thanks. :) [12:30] Diva Canto: hehe [12:31] Penny Lane: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ogpx [12:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Has anyone ever compiled an actual spec on the LL protocol? Outside of libOMV or something? [12:31] dz ozb: thanks all... I need to scoot :) see ya soon [12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Later, dz. [12:32]  Penny Lane: Marcus: not even LL have a spec [12:32]  Marcus Llewellyn: LOL [12:32]  Penny Lane: That's not a joke [12:32]  Marcus Llewellyn: Oh, I bleieve it. [12:32]  Marcus Llewellyn: Don't want to, but I do. :P [12:32]  Penny Lane: SL "evolved", wasn't designed. [12:35]  Penny Lane: The good thing about IETF WG slowness is that since you folks are much faster, you can work out how you want things to work, and we can follow on behind kicking the standard protocols to match :-) [12:35] Penny Lane tries to turn a bug into a feature [12:35] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe [12:36] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, it's comforting to know at least one person familiar with OSim in is the IETF group. LL has never seemed serious about true interoperability outside of a model that suits their business needs. [12:37] Penny Lane: Oh it was a lot worse than merely "not serious about". I would add in a few pinches of "actively blocking" and a good helping of "skewing to suit only SL". [12:38] Penny Lane: But they're being dragged kicking and screaming to face the music --- interop is for everyone. [12:38] Marcus Llewellyn: I certainly don't mind them having features that benefit them. As long as they don't block other use cases. [12:38] Penny Lane: Yeah [12:39] zaphrod zenovka: Well, you can't really blame LL for trying to protect their niche... [12:39] zaphrod zenovka: before they even really secured firm buy-in by the business world, they are being forced to interoperate [12:39] zaphrod zenovka: Image MS having been forced to share evreything about the time they created win95 [12:40] Penny Lane: You protect your niche by making a better product, as I see it. Not by preventing progress in the area. [12:40] zaphrod zenovka: oh, I agree... [12:40] zaphrod zenovka: trouble is that bean counters don't [12:41]  Marcus Llewellyn: Well, to be fair, a lot of the changes are something the dev team looks at and must say, "Oh, that's VERY non-trivial! We're looking at huge refactoring and rewrites here." Who would envy them that? [12:41] Diva Canto: ok, I need to go guys. Bye! [12:41] Penny Lane: I'm not very good at the LL fandom bit ;-) [12:41]  Marcus Llewellyn: Thanks for your time, Diva. :) [12:42] Penny Lane: Cyu Diva, take care :-) [12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ok guys im heading off with Diva, she is going to show me some stuff [12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: talk soon [12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: i will post logs up in a few [12:43]  Marcus Llewellyn: Have fun, Neb. :)