Chat log from the meeting on 2010-02-16

[10:56] Penny Lane: Hi Adelle [10:56] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [10:56] Connected [10:57] Matrix Smythe: this isn't good [10:57] Penny Lane: Woe, I rezzed instantly here. Sim's in good shape today. [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: whats that? [10:57] Matrix Smythe: ah there we go [10:57]  Matrix Smythe: nothing loaded at all [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: oh [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: loaded right up for me [10:57]  Snoopy Pfeffer is Online [10:57] Matrix Smythe: popped up all at once [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:58] Penny Lane: Hiya Neb [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: its cause we logged in at same time [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: multiple logins are still semi-harsh [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello Penny [10:58] Matrix Smythe: yeah [10:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello everyone [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:58] Penny Lane: Hi Adelle [10:59] Friendly Harbour: hello everyone [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:59] Matrix Smythe: hello [11:00] Penny Lane: Hi Friendly :-) [11:00]  Matrix Smythe: hello Justin [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks, hello matrix [11:01]  Penny Lane: Hi JCC :-) [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justin :) [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: if you guys have not noticed yet, Adelle and I started building a new freebie mall here on Wright Plaza [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: its over next to the original freebie zone [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: and still somewhat incomplete [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: but its coming along [11:02]  Penny Lane: Oh, that's cool Neb & Adelle. Camm'ing [11:02]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Justin, Friendly [11:02]  Snoopy Pfeffer is Offline [11:02]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe, mostly Neb's, i did some stairs lol [11:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer is Online [11:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Hiro [11:03]  Hiro Protagonist: Hey everbodeh [11:03]  Matrix Smythe: hey Hiro [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all :) [11:03] Penny Lane: Hi Hiro [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hey Snoopy [11:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: I dont see my own text messages [11:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [11:04]  Snoopy Pfeffer: did we crash? [11:04] Matrix Smythe: no [11:04]  Adelle Fitzgerald: nope [11:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah it is just lag [11:04] Penny Lane: No, we're fine. Working great in fact [11:04] Friendly Harbour: really nice neb [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: man, I'm tired today [11:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: heh, bizarre, Justin, Snoopy and Penny are all black [11:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: or maybe it is Impuodence [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: always in style [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see that too [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: probably just need a rebake or something [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: any better? [11:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: no Justin, not yet [11:05] Penny Lane: I'm on Imprudence. Not aware of it causing problems. It's rock solid for me on Linux [11:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: better? [11:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: Snoopy is ok now [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I did do a rebake, oh well [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: Penny do you use 1.2.0 or 1.2.1? [11:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: multiple monitors? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see snoopy ok now [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but the client is currently on the main screen so it should be okay.... [11:06]  Friendly Harbour: have they upgraded imprudence now? [11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: hrm, strange [11:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes there is a 1.2.1 version [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: no 1.3 yet? [11:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: but under window it crashes for me [11:06]  Friendly Harbour: i use the 1.30 version on sl [11:06]  Snoopy Pfeffer: I have to use 1.2.0 [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive had a lot of trouble with 1.3 beta [11:06] Friendly Harbour: not here though, using hippo now [11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have had the problem too, but i always used my second monitor for the viewer, so i swapped them around, and changed video ports hehe [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: its much worse than 1.2 for me [11:07]  Friendly Harbour: imp.1.3 is basically 1.2 with some 1.3 features added [11:07] Penny Lane: Snoopy: I'm on 1.2.1 on Linux 32-bit. And I use it full time, both in SL and here. [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: should that video have voice? [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: sound? [11:07] Friendly Harbour: it's more a test than a finished viewer [11:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes, Snoopy [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya i dunno why, i ended up un-installing imprudence after trying 1.3 [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: it became totally unusable for me [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: no sound at all [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh really? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and it crashes a lot [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: strange that it crashes for me [11:08]  Friendly Harbour: hmmm ... i use 1.3 without any serious problems ( a little more crashes but nothing too bad) [11:08] Matrix Smythe: i cant use anything but hippo and meta7 here [11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: you need to copy some files from the sl viewer [11:08] Friendly Harbour: i'm on 32-bit winxp [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest problem for me with 1.3 is no sound at all [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: no sound effects, no music stream [11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: elkdu.dll* [11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: and the voice files [11:08] Friendly Harbour: i have sound, voice and everything else [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: on Windows too [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: x64 [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: possible its x64 [11:08] Penny Lane: Snoopy: did you add the two KDU libs? If you don't then it'll crash very regularly, since OpenJPEG has a massive memory leak on Linux. [11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes I did [11:08] Tesira Luco is Offline [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya i did that too [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: didnt make any diff [11:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: 1.2.0 works well with that [11:09] Penny Lane: Hmmm [11:09] Friendly Harbour: maybe x64 is worse, on 32-bit i have no problem with voice/sound/music/media [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya 1.2 works ok for me [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: 1.3 is totally unusable [11:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: 1.2.1 did crash with and without these dlls [11:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: I hear music [11:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: but the video seems to have no sound [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya 1.2 i had sound but no video sound [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: 1.3 i had nothing [11:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [11:09]  Snoopy Pfeffer: we need a viewer that works! [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i eneded up uninstalling it [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: never got back to installing 1.2 again [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i dont use it enough [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hippo works a lot better [11:10] Snoopy Pfeffer: many of my renters use Emerald, although I told them of problems with it [11:10]  Friendly Harbour: hippo is the most stable viewer for me [11:10]  Snoopy Pfeffer: I did also use Hippo till now [11:10] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:10] Friendly Harbour: but it hasn't been upgraded in a while so it's getting behind on some features [11:10] Snoopy Pfeffer: Rich told me about Imprudence and that it is good [11:10] Penny Lane: Ah yeah, the videohere has no sound for me. (Land audio music works fine though). That always means it's encoded with a codec that gstreamer doesn't have in this code. [11:11] Snoopy Pfeffer: :) [11:11]  Friendly Harbour: it sounds as the media problems are more linux related than viewer related? [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: im on Windows [11:11]  Friendly Harbour: missing codec or something maybe? [11:11]  Snoopy Pfeffer: today I did finish some inworld region management terminal for my renters [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: imprudence has always had audio issues [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: from day one [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: 1.2 wa the best though [11:12]  Friendly Harbour: strange neb, i have no audio prob on winxp [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: only thing didnt work was video sounds [11:12]  Snoopy Pfeffer: they can go to these terminals to do things like restarting regions or paying the rent [11:12]  Penny Lane: Friendly: it's not Linux as such, but just the codecs made available with the viewer for gstreamer to use. [11:12]  Penny Lane: The same video would play fine in mplayer for example. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but like i said 1.3 totally kills it for me [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:12]  Friendly Harbour: penny, that is what i meant [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: videos play fine in Hippo [11:12] Penny Lane nods [11:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Hippo works well [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the only viewer i ever had sound issues with is Imprudence [11:12] Penny Lane: Hippo used FMOD, not OpenAL+gstreamer [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: cant think of any others that have issues on my hardware [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: Meerkat works fine [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: supposed to use same files as imprudence [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: imprudence sound in windows is broke for others too [11:13] Penny Lane waits for Naali to work here :-)) [11:13] Snoopy Pfeffer: does anybody know what Meta7 did with the Emerald viewer to get it working on their grid? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: Warin had same thing [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: in 32bit windows [11:13] Friendly Harbour: but what viewers are currently being developed? hippo is "dead", meerkat is dead [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: none [11:13] Matrix Smythe: meta7 is emerald [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: imprudence not to ? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Emerald has no desire to work on OpenSim [11:14] Matrix Smythe: just modded [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Meta7 only works on their servers [11:14] Matrix Smythe: no [11:14]  Matrix Smythe: im using it right now [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its not a true opensim viewer [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: well their special stuff [11:14] Matrix Smythe: yeah [11:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: well Emerald is the current standard for ppl that want a better viewer [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it offers nothing to me [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: I refuse to use emerald [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: want nothing to do with that viewer [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:14] Penny Lane: Imprudence dev is alive and well, and they want to support Opensim. We even held our regular UXIG meeting here a few weeks ago. [11:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:14] Friendly Harbour: i used emerald for 2-3 days then moved to imprudence :) [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hi all [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i do like imprudence [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i just wish i could use it [11:15]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Rich [11:15]  Penny Lane: Hiya Richardus [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: so far I am unable to use it full time [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: its go so many issues [11:15]  Friendly Harbour: hi richardus [11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: emerald is nice for SL, for osgrid ,no. [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: I cant even work a whole 5 minutes on imprudence before something trips me up [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: and i have to switch to hippo [11:15]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well the new sl viewer will change a lot - lets see when they will relases the beta [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:16]  Friendly Harbour: a new viewer from LL? [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: all the current viewers are gonna die soon [11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Emerald does ok for me here, but not the best, no. [11:16]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: and you tryed the SL dll addon nebadon ? [11:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: should be very soon [11:16] Friendly Harbour: you mean v2? [11:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: yes Richard [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: imprudence can crash sofar i know on openjpeg [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive tried everything, it just runs really bad for me [11:16]  Snoopy Pfeffer: the sl viewer with 3d meshes [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, its stable for me [11:16]  Penny Lane: Neb: would be helpful if you listed some of the issues on the Imprudence forum. We could repro them, and they'd get attention. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya before i ever loaded it once [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i install Kadaku dll [11:16] Friendly Harbour: right i heard it was comming, but haven't read up on the changes it will bring [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: 1st thing i did [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i wish i knew [11:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: well meshes and better web support are the main things [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: its the only reason OSgrid has not adopted Imprduence or Meerkat as the official viewer yet [11:17] Friendly Harbour: how will that effect opensim? [11:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: some said it looks like a web browser with an address bar on the top lol [11:17] Matrix Smythe: hello Dahlia [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Snoopy i spoke to some people about meshes [11:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Dahlia [11:17] Matrix Smythe: it does look like that [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure thats happening in 2.0 [11:17] Penny Lane: Hi Dahlia [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, did you tryed the, llkdu.dll from sl ? [11:17] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: i did Richardus [11:17]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Dahlia [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: same [11:17]  Friendly Harbour: hi dahlia [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: my problem is sound [11:17]  Richardus Raymaker: OMG, something good wrong [11:17]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well some ppl saw the alpha viewer at ll [11:18]  Snoopy Pfeffer: it had these features [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: aha. yes movie sound i dont have to [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: has nothing to do with that file [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: no i dont have any sound [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: in 1.3 [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: i use 1.2 [11:18]  Snoopy Pfeffer: 1.2.0? [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: not just movies, but sound effects and music track [11:18]  Snoopy Pfeffer: or 1.2.1? [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: i use 1.2.0 [11:18]  Snoopy Pfeffer: me too [11:18]  Snoopy Pfeffer: 1.2.1 crashes for me [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: Imprudence 1.2.0 / Second Life 1.22.11 (0), Nov 19 2009 00:32:32 [11:19] Penny Lane: Oh, well if you have no audio at all, that's a different problem. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont have time to tinker with viewers really [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: so if it doesnt work [11:19] Penny Lane: Aye [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i generally dont use it [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: so when will we get the "dramatically" changed opensim version? [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: when its done snoopy. lol [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: before year 3736? [11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: :) [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: my guess is the SL viewer 2.0 will probably work on OSg without mods [11:20]  Penny Lane: Release date is 20-whenitsdone [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont change that much [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: everyone get ready for the most anticlimactic LL announce ever [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: SL 2.0 [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: when? [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: nothings gonna change [11:20]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: oh soon [11:20]  Penny Lane yawns [11:20]  Snoopy Pfeffer: during the next days [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: infact it could be any day [11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: only more bugs i guess in sl 2.0 [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it will go beta [11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: the new viewer skin? YAY! [11:20]  Snoopy Pfeffer: not just a skin [11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: Will anyone still be on SL to care by the time it's done? [11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: 3d meshes [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: Snoopy [11:21] Dahlia Trimble has been waiting for years for the new skin [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is no meshes [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: for 2.0 [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: it will be later relases [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: like 2.1 or 2.2 [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: no meshes [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: strange [11:21] Penny Lane: Correct, they confirmed, no meshes [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: ppl told me that they saw it [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i asked a few folks [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not ready [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: otaku, wel amny can get back in sl with 2.0 ? [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: but it will be in 2.x [11:21]  Penny Lane: Meshes would be quite out of character, you know, like rapid progress. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but probably 2.1 or 2.2 [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: 2.2 is 1 year away [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: so dont hold your breath [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: pfff. [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: well then I got wrong information [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe they did mix up things [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: well i think they were trying to get some prelim stuff in for testing [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: everyone hide, jradford is here [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but its not gonna happen [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes maybe he saw a testing viewer [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: and thought that's the next release [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: oh there are mesh viewers [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: in 1 year, opensim is still ahead :) [11:22]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Jim [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: and LL has a private grid it works on [11:22]  Jim Radford: nothing to worry about folks, I don't have any good weapons to play with here. [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: but nothing thats viewable outside their private lab [11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: I know of at least one mesh viewer :) [11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok [11:23]  Richardus Raymaker: i love the pogo gun :) [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes we should have that here soon [11:23]  Penny Lane: Hiya Jim [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that we can integrate some regions with meshes in osgrid [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: well supposedly Rex can work here [11:23]  Matrix Smythe: rex can [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: but no ones done it yet [11:23]  Matrix Smythe: its slower though [11:23]  Matrix Smythe: i have [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and as viewer the Naali viewer [11:24]  Penny Lane: Jim and JCC are clones. I hope it's not contagious! [11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: it important the get the base working good now. [11:24]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well user authentication was very different [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: supposedly it works Snoopy [11:24]  Matrix Smythe: after robust, it should be working in grid and standalone [11:24]  Dahlia Trimble: ooo I should try naali here [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: that is only for Rex avatars [11:24] Dahlia Trimble relogs... [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: which wont work here [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a popular body plan [11:24] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but rex sims will work here [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: without the authentication [11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok [11:24]  Matrix Smythe: modrex sims take longer to start though [11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: and without meshes? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: with meshes [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly [11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: what about the mesh avatars? [11:24] Matrix Smythe: and they don't have all the features like meshes [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive not seen anyone do it [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: but ive heard claims from Rex and Adam that it should work [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: dunno why no one has [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: I would like to try that [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: probably cause the LL based REx viewer sucks [11:25] Matrix Smythe: yes it does [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and Naali is not ready [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes as soon as Naali is ready [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: now you can only see the region you are in [11:25]  Penny Lane: Not ready, but now is a good time to get involved and see it grow [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: and it crashes so often lol [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: it is not usable yet [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya what i have seen so far of Naali is impressive [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: but Naali on OSgrid is not very good [11:26] Hiro Protagonist: has anyone tried the latest radegast/lookingglass? [11:26] Matrix Smythe: hehe [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy. i have that problem with a normal viewer to. that some regions are invisible or dont come back after restart [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: yeah its a bug [11:26] Snoopy Pfeffer: Rich I also do not see restarted regions [11:27] Snoopy Pfeffer: I have to tp away and come back [11:27] Snoopy Pfeffer: or relog [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: it works if you teleport to plaa and back [11:27] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:27] Penny Lane: It *will* work well on OSgrid, is my guess, because I get the feeling from various posts that reX peeps would very much like it to be THE viewer for Opensim :-) [11:27]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think that is a bug in the simulator [11:27]  Adelle Fitzgerald: its probably a missing packet not being sent to the viewer [11:27]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Adelle [11:27]  Matrix Smythe: restarts do not readd you to the sim [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:27]  Matrix Smythe: at least that used to be a bug [11:27]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that is a new bug [11:27]  Snoopy Pfeffer: since some months [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: Im using naali now [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: nice Dahlia [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: im suprised your not crashing [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: as well as parcel pics are not shown anymore [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: in lms and in search [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant even move in OSG with naalie [11:28] Dahlia Trimble: kinda slow [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: without it just poofing away on me [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: if i just stand and never move its ok [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:28] Matrix Smythe: it works fine for me [11:28]  Matrix Smythe: lol [11:28] Penny Lane: Gratz Dahlia! [11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: matrix you mean Naali? [11:28] Matrix Smythe: yes [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i wanted to make some fraps of Naali [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but so far i have not been able too [11:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: if you create a lm here, do you see a pic? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i cant keep it running long enough [11:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: in that lm? [11:29]  Matrix Smythe: the landmark/parcel snapshot is a bug [11:29] Matrix Smythe: its on the mantis [11:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Matrix btw i need to talk to you later about particles [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i found some issues with our particle system [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it seems like we can not set the alpah level on particles [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: alpha* [11:30] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh really? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: seems so [11:30]  Matrix Smythe: the particle system has plenty of bugs [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i noticed it months ago, then again last night [11:30] Snoopy Pfeffer: that's not good for some uses [11:30] Penny Lane: Dahlia, can you take a screenie of how we look here from Naali? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: stats here are terrible [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: it's locked up :( [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: i wonder if thats cause Dahlia is moving arouind with naali? [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: now your still stats recovered [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: she looks very scary. [11:31]  Penny Lane: Yeah, you're rubber banding, seems to be in trouble [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: when you move the stats bog out bad [11:31]  Snoopy Pfeffer: do you also experience that scripts still often do not restart properly after sim border crossings or tps? [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: the avatars is complete strange shaped from dahliua [11:31]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya be careful when using Naali [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: your avatar will get messed up [11:32]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: your next relog with hippo goes very bad [11:32]  Snoopy Pfeffer: you look a bit like 1st of April last year ;) [11:32] Matrix Smythe: hehe [11:32] Penny Lane: kk, good advice. Make a new av to test it with [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya i had to relog several times before it got straight after using naali [11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you also have issues with scripts at sim border? [11:33] Penny Lane: New verb, "My av got Naalied" [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:33] Matrix Smythe: lol [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: what do you mean at Sim border? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: crossing borders? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: or just standing near the edge? [11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: well if you cross sim borders or tp with scripted atachments they often do not restart properly [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: i would say thats normal [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: the worst I saw was a script that did run wild [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: our border crossing is nothing like how it should work [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: it was some shoes of a renter [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: and it did cause much lag [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: she did wear scripted bling shoes [11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: and these nearly crashed my region [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i imagine wearing to many scripts [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: is not going to be good [11:35] Matrix Smythe: heh [11:35] Matrix Smythe: that lightsaber can be very laggy on a sim crossing [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya i bet [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: I gotta get y'all [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: that things got sooo many scripts [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: tc :) [11:35]  Hiro Protagonist waves [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Hiro [11:35]  Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Hiro [11:35]  Matrix Smythe: cya Hiro [11:36]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well I did change my AO to restat properly most of the time [11:36]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but sometimes it simply does not restart the scripts [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: yes snoopy. i have seen that invisible script at wright plaza some day to. [11:36]  Snoopy Pfeffer: then I cannot do anything [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline [11:37]  Snoopy Pfeffer: btw I think the TOS are more important, now, because many ppl create adult sims [11:37]  Snoopy Pfeffer: I did add something to the TOS of my regions [11:37]  Dahlia Trimble: http://dahliaisland.wwweb3d.net:8099/images/wp_naali01.jpg [11:37]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but I think the whole grid needs some rules [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: well being this Grid is truly global [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be hard for us to truly enforce a TOS [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: true [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: but what if someone starts an online casino?? [11:38] Penny Lane: Haha, neat Dahlia! [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: honestly much wont change with the TOS [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: very few people read the TOS [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: problems are not simply going to go away cause a TOS is posted [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: Neb then they risk getting banned ;) [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: nice dahlia. but it seems avatars are now clients side rendered ? and dont give me a image. i try to cam in it. lol [11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont have a TOS on my regions [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: they risk getting banned now [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: dont need a TOS to get banned [11:39]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well a TOS is like a warning [11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: i dotn have any couvennat set [11:39]  Penny Lane: You need to go "Common Carrier" as a grid. Nothing else will work. [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya but no one reads it Snoopy [11:39]  Snoopy Pfeffer: rules what is allowed and what isnt [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: re pic - it's the attack of the balding finnish clones :) [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: have you ever read the LL TOS [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: top to bottom? [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: avatars always have been client rendered [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i bet if anyone did they probably would not use SL [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:39] Penny Lane: If you take on responsibility for what is in your regions, you're in deeeeeeeeep shit. [11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: currently many think all is allowed [11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: or what they think is allowed [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: Snoopy even with a TOS [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, yes i have read parts of the ll tos [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: people will still think that [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: there are major tecnical hurdles we need to overcome [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: before we can implement a TOS [11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Adelle these are the main clauses: no responsibilty for what the renters do :) [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: 1 being we have to disable everyones access [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: until you agree to the TOS [11:40]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but you have to state that [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot to figure out [11:40]  Matrix Smythe: Nebadon that is not hard [11:41]  Matrix Smythe: just means editing some login params [11:41]  Snoopy Pfeffer: otherwise some stupid attorneys sue you sooner or later [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: where Matrix? [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to require we modify ELgg [11:41]  Matrix Smythe: ah [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant do it from the viewer [11:41]  Matrix Smythe: you mean the website as well [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ya everything [11:41]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well I tell me renters that adult regions need a warning message [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: the website and grid use same database [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: we dont duplicate data for user accounts [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: and what about scene zoneing / style ? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the website and grid read same table [11:41] Matrix Smythe: you can send a message to the viewer telling them about the TOS etc [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: and ppl have to exlicitly state that they are allowed there and willing to be there [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yes but we need to disable access completley [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: until you agree [11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: like adult web sites do it [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: we dont know how that system works [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer TOS [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is its hard coded to LL [11:42]  Matrix Smythe: i can work on the server to viewer login side if needed [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: you can not overide that without modifyiung the viewer [11:42] Matrix Smythe: not planning on editing the viewer [11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: does the region classification work? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: well im not sure we can use the built in TOS stuff [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: in the viewer [11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: PG / Adult? [11:42] Matrix Smythe: we probably cant [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is its hard coded in the viewer [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: to LL servers [11:43] Matrix Smythe: but you can block access to OSG in the login params [11:43] Matrix Smythe: until you have agreed on the website to the TOS [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya but elgg is a nightmare [11:43] Matrix Smythe: heh [11:43] Snoopy Pfeffer: it would be good if we could restrict to all Adult / Mature regions, if the viewer is set to PG only [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think you realize how horrible elgg is [11:43]  Matrix Smythe: only sometimes [11:43] Matrix Smythe: i used elgg for my website as well nebadon [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and it needs to be not confusing [11:44] Matrix Smythe: i know what it is [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: if people just try to log in and cant [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be very confusing [11:44] Matrix Smythe: you can send a message saying exactly why they cant login [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest im not sure how we will get around this TOS problem [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: without having our own viewer [11:44] Matrix Smythe: heh [11:44] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [11:44]  Matrix Smythe: you can send a URL to the viewer in the login params [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: likely what is going to happen [11:44] Snoopy Pfeffer: can we not use what the viewer has at the moment? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: is we will disable everyones account [11:45] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and problem is [11:45]  Matrix Smythe: along with a message stating that they cannot login until they agree to the TOS at that website [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i would say 75% of our accounts [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: have either fake or no email [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: so if we disable accounts [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and people dont remember their password [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: everyone is screwed [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly [11:45] Matrix Smythe: why disable the accounts? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we will have about 28,000 deactivated accounts [11:45] Matrix Smythe: ah [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what LL does [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: you cant log in until you agree to TOS changes [11:45] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw did you see the blog entry of Zonja? [11:45] Matrix Smythe: yeah [11:46] Matrix Smythe: thats how im suggesting we do it [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: until we can figure that out [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: that are much acocunt nebadon [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i dont expect there will be a TOS [11:46] Penny Lane: Taking what LL does as a model is a bad idea [11:46] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: about "potential rl-identity exploit with avatars united"? [11:46] Matrix Smythe: ill talk to you later on it nebadon [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Penny has nothing to do with LL [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: its a legal thing [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: we cant change the TOS [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: without everyone agreeing to it [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant just change it [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: without alerting people to agree [11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: well the grid can enforce a TOS [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: is there a way how we can get the lok of oisgrid goof or at least in some regions abit the same ? [11:46] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: that all region owners registering here have to accept these global TOS [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps but again [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: if we change it [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: we have to disable access [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: until you agree [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: same thing applies [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes somewhere they have to click yes [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i cant change the terms without everyone knowing [11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: The issue as I gather isn't those who come in the future, but everyone here now. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and again like i said [11:47] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have real emails [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: or set "acceptTOS = yes" in OpenSim.ini :) [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant email everyone the changes [11:48]  Snoopy Pfeffer: with a default value "no" [11:48]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:48]  Snoopy Pfeffer: then this is an explicit statement [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: we may at the same time require you enter a real email address too [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: when you agree to the terms [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: otherwise you never get back in [11:48]  Dahlia Trimble gives up in naali for now [11:48]  Jim Radford: I don't have to agree to any tos when I visit google, yahoo, bing or any other website I use commonly. They are pointless and from my understanding not enforcable due to the fact you have to agree before you actually see what you are agreeing to. [11:48]  Penny Lane: There's a difference between SL and OSgrid. LL act as guardians and police the world (unsuccessfully), and it's going to cost them dearly when they are held responsible for stuff in their regions. OSgrid cannot afford to be responsible for the actions of others. [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: Jim [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: how can mail not be working ? i know verify in the past broke. e-mial changes work still not btw [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: were not those companies [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: im going to do whatever the lawyers say we have to do really [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Penny [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im not going to base my decisions on how other companies operate [11:49] Jim Radford: yeah well make sure you have good lawyers with the right knowledge. [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: that is why it is even more important here to clearly regulate responsibilities [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: we are currently using Pillsbury [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: they are big in Virtual Worlds [11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: The TOS here isn't really meant to lay down a bunch of rules like LL did. It's to remove liability issues. [11:49] Jim Radford: the cookie company? [11:49] Penny Lane: Well lawyers always give you advice that keeps them in the loop, which means trouble for you. [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmm, cookies [11:49] Nebadon Izumi whispers: virtual world TOS wont resemble a basic website TOS [11:49] Matrix Smythe: cookies? where? [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe you get cookies when you hire them lol [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: cookies? o.O [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:49] Matrix Smythe: lol [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: chocolate chip? [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: christ, I'm hungry now [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.pillsburylaw.com/ [11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh no cookies hehe [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: :( [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: funny story though I think it was one of the OpenSim news websites [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: they had a banner advert to pillsburylaw [11:50]  Jim Radford: http://www.pillsbury.com/ [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: then when you lcicked it it loaded the bakery company [11:50]  Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:51]  Jim Radford: I like cookies more than laywers, I'll do what they tell me to do [11:51]  Penny Lane: You need to have as close a Common Carrier ToS as possible, at least like YouTube's "We are not responsible for anything, but will try to comply if you notify us of a problem". [11:51]  Snoopy Pfeffer: did you read Zonja Capalini's last post? [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: god, why haven't people taken down all their valentine's day specials yet [11:51]  Snoopy Pfeffer: it is about finding out rl email addresses [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: http://www.pillsburylaw.com/index.cfm?pageid=12&itemid=1836 [11:51] Jim Radford: early preperation for next year [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: something to take a look at [11:51]  Adelle Fitzgerald: http://www.dreamtechnologies.co.uk/mm.jpg [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't need reminding about that date all year, goddamnit :p [11:52] Snoopy Pfeffer: it is not difficult to request the email address from the user server [11:52] Jim Radford: here justin, have a heart shaped sugar cube with a useless message written on it [11:52]  Snoopy Pfeffer: so I am not sure if that could also be an issue for opensim sooner or later [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: Pillsbury has defended companies like Activision, Blizzard and Rockstar Games [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: so im confident they know what they are doing [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: jim: nggggfffffffff [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: its just they are super busy [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: valentines day is good for chocolate :D [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: and working for us Gratis [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey eats the sugar cube anyway - what the hell :) [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: so priority is somewhat low for us at times [11:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: Sugar cueb :D [11:52]  Jim Radford: it said "I Love me" [11:53]  Snoopy Pfeffer: anyway ppl concerned about privacy should register with seperate email accounts for their avatars [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: self love is the most reliable love [11:53]  Penny Lane: Lawyers always know what they're doing --- ensuring future work for themselves. [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: and cheap [11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: but some simple guidelines would be nice, so people can read that. try to keep the regions in line with other styles around it [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i hear you guys [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but honestly we could post 100 signs and make you agree 50 times [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: and people are still gonna ignore the rules [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: Keeping "in style" with surrounding regions is sort of another matter entirely [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: and waste everyones time [11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: sl mainland was like wild west and they also had to introduce rules very early [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: if you dont want to get sued, just never have a lot of money [11:54] Jim Radford: no if you heard us you would be baking cookies for us [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: well there are always ppl that break the "law", but at least it is clear what is ok and what isnt [11:54] Jim Radford: seriously though, didn't mean to derail your discussion, I have no horse in that race [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: time to find one jim :) [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:55]  Penny Lane: Snoopy: SL is a managed world. OSgrid is not. It's a loose confederation of independent regions which are pretty autonomous, and add to that Hypergrid which decouples everything even more. The two worlds are not really comparable. [11:55]  Snoopy Pfeffer: Penny, tell that the legal ppl :) [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest problem with implementing a TOS today [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: is we dont have the technical means to enforce it [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a technical side to TOS as well [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its just not a document [11:56] Penny Lane: Snoopy: the only thing I tell the legal department is to line up against the wall. Come the revolution, /me sings ... [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is if we set all these rules [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: then cant enforce it