Chat log from the meeting on 2018-10-23

[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: Anyone gonna be at OSCC this year? [11:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I am going MArkus 4th year [11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: Awesome! :) [11:12] Fu Barr: I might be... if I can get my 'stuff' in order. [11:12] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I will attend OSCC [11:12] Kayaker Magic: I saw Andrew Sunday at a Kitely meeting. [11:12] Bill Blight: as soon as they post the crowdfunder booth info, hope to grab a booth [11:12] Bill Blight: "Secret Project" HAHAH [11:12] Kayaker Magic: OSCC is happening? When? [11:12] Bill Blight looks at Leighton [11:12] Ubit Umarov: he was at irc at 15:00 WEST [11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: taps nose knowingly at Bill [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Hmmm... will have to see when the crowdfunding becomes active. [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: It will be Dec 8-9, Kayaker. They're accepting proposals if you got one. :) [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: I always enjoy your presentations. :) [11:13] Ubit Umarov: oscc? not sure ill be there this year [11:14] Ubit Umarov: don't see much point [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit [11:14] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: OSCC starts tomorrowThe 2018 OpenSimulator Community Conference (OSCC) will take place on Saturday 8th and Sunday 9th December 2018. [11:14] Kayaker Magic: I wonder if the OSCC grid will still be running 0.8.2 [11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: lots of commits the last couple   weeks i see [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What was the reason for removing the tempattachment module? [11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: Unfortunately, it will be running 0.8.2. With Nebadon on sabbitacal, getting access to upgrade has been problematic. :( [11:15] Ubit Umarov: Andrew arrinving [11:15] Bill Blight: hmmm [11:16] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: sarcastically says "you've only had year between conferences" [11:16] Bill Blight: May have to put a HG portal then, because most of my newer stuff will not work on .8x' [11:16] Ubit Umarov: yeah really don't see much point going there [11:16] Ubit Umarov: but will see [11:17] Bill Blight: Welcome to OSCC 2012 umm I mean 2018 [11:17] Ubit Umarov: it has now little relation to opensimulator etcv [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: They're still hoping to talk up the newest version of Opensim. [11:18] Ubit Umarov: new version? what new version? 0.9x is now old :p [11:18] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: nods @ Ubit [11:18] Bill Blight: will be 3 years old by then [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: when was the first release again/.? [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: in the past year? [11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: I think that OSCC's grid version missed the point. :) There are people there who want to know how development has been going, and how they can leverage the work that has been done. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: im sure other core devs will be there [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: there are others? [11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: I rather hope so. Most people expect a core dev presence as the initial keynote. [11:21] Ubit Umarov: but ill think about it [11:21] Bill Blight: Actively contributing core devs other than Ubit are hard to find [11:21] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: very [11:21] Ubit Umarov: just last yr already seen no much point [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: begs the question why they are [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just make a NPC and nobody will spot the difference [11:22] Kayaker Magic: LOL [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: make room for new blood [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: hehe  Gavin [11:22] Ubit Umarov: at somepoints even insulting.. but whatever [11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm sure nobody wanted you to feel insulted. What made you feel thay way? [11:23] Bill Blight: I know exactly what you mean Ubit [11:23] Bill Blight: Last year was a bash 9x fest [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, yup. Plenty of room for new blood. [11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I appreciate how you feel Ubit, but it will be strange to have a conference about Opensim without you being there. [11:24] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: indeed [11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i think thats turned  around  now  Bill [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I would very much like some insight into that perception, Bill. [11:25] Bill Blight: it is simple, "Talk about what we can do and not what we can't do" [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The OSCC regions need to be updated to run under 0.9 for this years event. [11:25] Bill Blight: yep [11:25] Ubit Umarov: but well oscc is not this meetings subject [11:25] Bill Blight: otherwise it is a slap to the whole team [11:25] Ubit Umarov: any questions about dev ? [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: already was Ubit [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: Gavins [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I agree, Andrew. Very much so. But the OSCC grid is hosted by UCI, and getting a hold of diva has been difficult. [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if not updated it would be yesterday's news [11:25] Ubit Umarov: ahh [11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: they said last year they ran out of time to do the upgrade seems that will be the reason again this year. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: i moved the func to better places gavin.Hird [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Leighton, could be. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: no need for a full module for that [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I thought nebadon might have been in a position to update the grid. [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok Ubit [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Nebadon has been inactive where the conference is concerned, unfortunately. [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: does it affect the  functionality  Ubit? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: no [11:27] Ubit Umarov: i had dropped a comand, but by ppl request recovered it today [11:27] Ubit Umarov: i also deleted a attachments comand module that had ONE comand [11:28] Ubit Umarov: again no need for a full module to do that [11:28] Ubit Umarov: several more modules like that [11:29] Bill Blight: Yeah time for "Module Fever" to be over with [11:29] Ubit Umarov: that imo make no much sense [11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah modules only make sense up to a point [11:29] Ubit Umarov: then are just waste of resources [11:30] Ubit Umarov: and those were funny non optional optional modules [11:30] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:30] Ubit Umarov: ( well again like others still there ) [11:31] Ubit Umarov: i also added suport for scripts syntax capability [11:31] Ubit Umarov: and of course a viewers fail [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well [11:31] Ubit Umarov: fs does not allow any override to that they had defined [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, care to elaborate what you mean by scripts syntax capability? [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: first of all, the viewers will never check for syntax updates on region crossing because in SL there is no need for it [11:31] Ubit Umarov: alch updates some.. [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is received on login and is constant [11:32] Ubit Umarov: they do check on crossings [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that should be the case for OpenSim too [11:32] Ubit Umarov: sorry it is per region and it is checked [11:32] Ubit Umarov: if not everytime you edit a script [11:32] Ubit Umarov: that is not the issue [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what viewer did you test? [11:33] Ubit Umarov: both FS and alch [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OK, but the Alch code has not been updated for a almost 2 years [11:33] Ubit Umarov: alch even drops what it did know after a crossing [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS read the syntax from their onw XML [11:33] Arielle Popstar: and is based on FS isnt it? [11:33] Ubit Umarov: that code is identical to FS on the main part [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so does the Kokua code [11:34] Ubit Umarov: but FS does not drop what it got about ossl etc [11:34] Ubit Umarov: so.. yeach.. bad [11:34] Ubit Umarov: it has even wrong information there [11:34] Bill Blight: FS does pull the syntax but favors it's built in [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think FS have had any commit to that OSSL xml for some time [11:34] Ubit Umarov: including a function i never seen on our code :) [11:35] Ubit Umarov: alch has no ossl defines [11:35] Ubit Umarov: so it does get "mine" [11:36] Ubit Umarov: to be useful for us, viewers should do a full replacement [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In any case, there is no point in checking it on every region crossing, because the viewer only need to recieve the def once per session [11:36] Ubit Umarov: it checks the version on script edition [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it should not even have to do that [11:36] Ubit Umarov: they get the version with simulator features [11:36] Ubit Umarov: yes they should :) [11:37] Ubit Umarov: it is is a uuid check.. no big issue [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it could retrieve the def on initialization from own XMl and do an update on login [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if available [11:37] Ubit Umarov: that does not work for us [11:37] Ubit Umarov: it is region feature not grid feature [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then use that def throughout the session [11:37] Ubit Umarov: and ll did that ok [11:38] Ubit Umarov: they also assume it region feature [11:38] Ubit Umarov: guess original ll code would work fine for us [11:38] Marcus Llewellyn blames the kids today. [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no wonder region crossing are slow [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the less work you do on region crossings the better [11:39] Ubit Umarov: gavin.Hird [11:39] Ubit Umarov: it is on simuator features [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and I say it is not necessary to do it on every region crossing [11:40] Ubit Umarov: the download only happens if you edit a script and there is a version mismatch [11:40] Ubit Umarov: and that is as it should ... it is ok [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have the full definitions of the LSL and OSSL language on viewer init, not need to check it more [11:40] Ubit Umarov: only if viewers actually did it right [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even if the region only use a subset [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, how would you handle crossing in to a region that has additional OSSL functions? [11:41] Ubit Umarov: well it does not do it on regions crossings.. that was lang mistake [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you open a script in another region, you still want the full syntax to be avilable and not whatever the region owner supplies [11:41] Ubit Umarov: no you do not [11:41] Ubit Umarov: it will not compile there [11:42] Ubit Umarov: so waste of time [11:42] Ubit Umarov: and regions owners should not touch that [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 flüstert: well, they obviously do with whatever xml are in the simulator bin [11:42] Ubit Umarov: we do provide the file ( when we dont forget ) [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:43] Ubit Umarov: well of course they can change it as they change code.. [11:43] Ubit Umarov: their thing [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you, as a visitor will still want the editor to know the full syntax [11:44] Ubit Umarov: but as i said, for now that is defective with fs [11:44] Ubit Umarov: it will list the new functions we did add [11:44] Ubit Umarov: does not touch any other ( even the wrong ones ) [11:44] Ubit Umarov: and all will tell you about energy, that we do not have :) [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know [11:46] Ubit Umarov: well that and a few bug fixes ( or try) was all on code front, i think [11:46] Ubit Umarov: and a few patchs accepted ( with changes ) [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all good stuff [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Have the syntax errors in fs been reported to them? [11:48] Ubit Umarov: good luck with that :p [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to write a JIRA [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yea. :P [11:48] Ubit Umarov: me? no thanks.. been there.. no more [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for all practical purposes FS is now a department of LL [11:49] Arielle Popstar: like we  have  to do Mantises? [11:49] Ubit Umarov: im out looking for viewer devs [11:50] Ubit Umarov: if any viewer dev wants to really support opensim, he should talk to us [11:50] Ubit Umarov: not the other way around [11:50] JayR.Cela @discoverygrid.net:8002: https://www.patreon.com/sianagearz/overview [11:50] Arielle Popstar: good luck with that [11:50] Ubit Umarov: you bet [11:50] Fu Barr: just as a matter of interest is there any viewer out there that sort of maybe might be semi-up-to-date wrt. opensim? [11:50] Ubit Umarov: other way was a total fail in past [11:51] JayR.Cela @discoverygrid.net:8002: Siannagearz is looking for donors on Patreaon to resurect Singularity Viewer [11:51] Arielle Popstar: onlook viewer was  done by  core devs  wasnt it? [11:51] JayR.Cela @discoverygrid.net:8002: @Arielle / yes [11:51] Ubit Umarov: onllok was only a concept test [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think onlook will compile with anything current [11:51] Ubit Umarov: with a few changes [11:51] Arielle Popstar: why dont core devs  update it then [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, donations won't help if there isn't anyone available to do the work. [11:51] JayR.Cela @discoverygrid.net:8002: :_( [11:52] Fu Barr: i was quite interested in the moddable menu configs of onlook - but i never really saw it in use. [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Arielle, I don't you understand how much work there actually is in keeping a viewer running [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, viewer code is written in C++ so it needs someone who knows that language. [11:53] Ubit Umarov: work to just compile a damm viewer :) [11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes but  there were  core  devs  who  did  it  so must  be  a few  who do [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: The viewer source is also another big set of code someone needs time to learn. [11:53] Arielle Popstar: then core opensim  can keep a  viewer  up to date  with  changes [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: It took me a long time and multiple failed attempts before I was able to compile the viewer code. [11:54] Fu Barr: yes. i looked into it at some point. when I had a RL project that would have benefited from viewer support/changes... but it seemed too complicated for the project budget and timeline. [11:54] Arielle Popstar: maybe offer  Sieanna  a  position on  core [11:54] Ubit Umarov: i did comp singu once and alchmy [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There are over 10300 files only in the core viewer source [11:54] Ubit Umarov: but a total pain.. and missing dependencies etc [11:54] Fu Barr: i build singu and alchemy... but it was very painful [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I've compiled both Singularity and Firestorm. [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in addition to some 40 libraries [11:55] Ubit Umarov: singu could not comp in release, alch does not in debug :) [11:55] Ubit Umarov: well on my tests [11:55] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Is Firestorm source code openly accessible? I tried to get my hands on it, but didn't get access [11:55] Ubit Umarov: FS was a total fail [11:55] Fu Barr: yeah - it's a singular mess.... *giggle* [11:55] Ubit Umarov: think Bill managed to compile fs [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently using a version of FS I compiled. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Firestorm 5.1.8.55782 (Firestorm-private-bigred 64bit) [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS code is at hg.phoenixviewer.com [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't publish their libraries [11:57] Bill Blight: Im using 5.10.56126 [11:57] Fu Barr: singu source can be found via their website... there's instructions for complilation too. [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill: 5.10? [11:58] Bill Blight: yes current tip from FS [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... that's quite the jump in version number. My FS isn't that old. [11:58] Bill Blight: they jumped to 9 then to 10 [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Last I checked the latest release was 5.1.6 [11:59] Ubit Umarov: --7 andrew [11:59] Arielle Popstar: seems to me  that if  Opensim core wants  a viewer  for  opensim  then  the best way is  to  offer  a  core position to one [11:59] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I am running 5.1.7 [11:59] Bill Blight: jumped to 9 7 weeks ago [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Time for me to update my build. [11:59] Bill Blight: and to 10 3 weeks ago [11:59] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: What do you mean by "offer a core position". Arielle? [11:59] Arielle Popstar: otherwise it is just so much talk that never goes  anywhere [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a note on their current dev code: [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ATTN Viewer Developers: Please do not add our original, pre-release code to other viewers before we release it ourselves. [11:59] Bill Blight: yeah [12:00] Bill Blight: hard to claim something like that on an opensource project [12:00] Ubit Umarov: ll is opensource [12:00] Ubit Umarov: the are only forced to be opensource [12:00] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, but increasibly paid libraries [12:00] Bill Blight: They can't tell people to NOT use it [12:01] Bill Blight: they can suggest, as is the "Please" [12:01] Ubit Umarov: not necessary bc they want to be opensource, or even allow others to compile [12:01] Ubit Umarov: they can't Bill [12:01] Ubit Umarov: its that thing called lgpl [12:02] Bill Blight: they can make it a suggestion, but it is worded badly .. they could say something like, "Please don't release unstable dev code in your viewers." [12:02] Ubit Umarov: but just saying :) [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The other thing about the FS code, they don't release anything anymore unless approved by LL [12:03] Bill Blight: well, the LL viewer, but that goes out the window for people compiling only for OpenSimulator [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and not before released by LL unless it is some piddly UI feature [12:03] Bill Blight flüstert: and fixing the things that they neuter in OS [12:04] Ubit Umarov: well i guess we will need to forget FS for opensim [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will have to split the code [12:04] Fu Barr: so what are we left with? [12:04] Bill Blight: yep [12:04] Arielle Popstar: cant code  opensim  for compatibility with  FS? [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really [12:05] Fu Barr: that seems a little 'backward' [12:05] Ubit Umarov: talking about OSCC Jessica spoke about dropping opensim at least 2 years in a row and some years ago, if my memory is right [12:05] Bill Blight: someone forking FS once they go full LL or one of the existing viewers ... Need a windows coder to back up Gavini [12:05] Bill Blight: I always liked Kokua [12:05] Ubit Umarov: i do like fs.. damm :P) [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if someone want to start compiling the Kokua code for Win, there are probalby 1000 new commits to go into it [12:06] Arielle Popstar: Jessica  said in an open letter  that she  was  misunderstoood [12:06] Arielle Popstar: old  news  Ubit [12:06] Bill Blight: if it will compile on windows I can compile it [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the current repository will compile as is [12:06] Ubit Umarov: yeap misunderstud and did kept telling it [12:06] Bill Blight: I'll pull the source and setup a dev environment in the next few days [12:06] Ubit Umarov: they even did recomended alchemy didn't they ? [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then start picking up all the changes that are not Mac specific from the Mac respository [12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Kokua was meant to be the spiritual successor to Imprudence. This includes a heavy emphasis on open-source components and OpenSimulator compatibility. Sadly, they've lacked manpower. [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Most viewers seem to lack manpower. [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't tried building Kokua. I should try that one. [12:07] Arielle Popstar: except FS [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently in the process of doing hard drive backups before upgrading my hard drives. [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here is the Kokua opensim repro https://bitbucket.org/dayturn/kokua-opensim [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Here is the mac version of it https://bitbucket.org/dayturn/dayturn [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, which SCCS are they using for Kokua? [12:10] Ubit Umarov: well one thing must be said.. it is a pain to maintain code both for SL and opensim [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mercurial [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with bitbucket [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same as LL does [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. [12:10] Ubit Umarov: and not getting any easier [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour mark. About time to wrap things up for this week unless anyone has any last minute topic. [12:13] Arielle Popstar: hour started when you arrived  at 2:20  :) [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Not quite. [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm pulling the Kokua source code and will try to build that once my backups are done. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: cool [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Just another 300G (almost) to go. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: does  kokuah  have  rlv? [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't know. I have never used it in any viewer. [12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Last I knew it did [12:16] Arielle Popstar: good [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It has the Marine Kelly version of RLV [12:16] Arielle Popstar: i can get you  a  collar  so you can test it [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and not the version FS use [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it is a real pain to maintain [12:17] Arielle Popstar: oh [12:17] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: why that, Gavin? [12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Kokua didn't take the kitchen sink approach FS did... they were picky about feature adoption. [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it steps all over the other code [12:18] Arielle Popstar: so more control? [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what we would have to do is take the RLV updates from the SL version of Kokua and apply to the OS repository [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: The Kokua I have installed is 4.1.0.38653. Will be interesting to see what is the current source code version [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the Mac version I just gave up maintaining it some 8 months ago [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it slowed me down too much [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: There was that modular viewer which got started a while back. If RLV could be made an add-on module to a viewer it would make it easier to maintain. [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: much of the code is in the RLV addition, but it branch out everywhere with stupid exceptions even to the startup screen and renderer [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Why would it need to alter the start up screen and renderer?? That seems odd. [12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Because they have this blind login feature [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: The only change to the start up screen might be to indicate that RLV is supported [12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: The code base is kind F'd no matter how you slice it or where you start. It's so organic, such a hodgpodge, with fingers in so many pies at once.... [12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they kindoff log in to a black screen [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: um... ok. [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the idea is that some controller on the other end determines when they get to see anything of the session but black [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be easier to just attach a big black prim as a HUD to the viewer. [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You really have to be a BDSM nut to understand it (sorry about my characterization) [12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Thirty lashes with a wet noodle. ;) [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or a seal slapping you with a squid (did anyone see that video?) [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxRAVxkfrOs [12:25] Dev Random: only applies to Kayakers, right? [12:25] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: *tentatively clicks link* [12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kayakers, yes [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: This might be a good time to end the meeting for this week. :)