Chat log from the meeting on 2014-01-21

 [11:03] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de: it is not put in the teleport request, that field is empty in protoocl [11:03] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:03] Connected [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:04] logger sewell: hey Justin [11:04] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi [11:04]  Mata Hari: hi Justin [11:04] Dahlia Trimble: hi all [11:04] Mircea Kitsune: hello [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:04] logger sewell: Hi Dahlia [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:05] Mata Hari: hi Dahlia [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: is Nebadon really here or just idling? :) [11:05] dan banner: hes here [11:06]  Mata Hari: btw, I wasn't trying to be difficult yesterday....I know the importance of backup....I was just trying to ask whether I needed to completely restore my db or whether I could just roll back the sim....I ended up doing the entire thing though [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's difficult, because I think it's really good to try and keep master stable as it encourages people to test [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: on the other hand, it is a development branch and things are going to go wonky sometimes [11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: oh, well sorry you had difficulty Mata Hari, but I think in the state materials was in, backups would probably be a really good idea even if you normally dont do them [11:07]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Justin there should be some pre-tests with changes like that [11:08]  Dahlia Trimble: anyway should be better now [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: maybe not a long time but at least some [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: Are materials fully supported by default on opensim now? [11:08] Dahlia Trimble: they should be but more testing would help [11:08] Mata Hari: with the additional commits you made yesterday will I be safe(ish) to try them again? And will I be able to only view exiting ones or will I be able to edit them? [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: nice [11:09] Dahlia Trimble: save(ish) ;) [11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: but backups would be a good idea [11:09]  Mata Hari: as you can see I make extensive use of them (points to body, dress, boots, jewelry....) [11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: sorry I dont see well *tries to find you* [11:09]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: dahlia there should be conversion tool for that [11:10]  Dahlia Trimble: a conversion tool for what? [11:10]  Mata Hari: far left end of the bench between Justing and Kayaker [11:10]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: from old format to new format [11:10]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: of advanced materials [11:10]  Dahlia Trimble: the converter failed, and I didnt have time to fix it. So I just made it so old ones will still display but you can only create new ones now [11:11]  Mata Hari: a related issue....if more people start using mesh and the full mats capabilities there's going to be a huge issue with teleports.....they will start to fail a lot and when they fail they fail really, really badly [11:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: so change on save is not an option? [11:11] Dahlia Trimble: it displays both [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: why does mesh do that? [11:11] Dahlia Trimble: you can only create new ones [11:11] Mata Hari: wear a few mesh items and apply texture + normal map and specuilar map and it takes too long for the assets to be sent so th tp times out [11:12] Mata Hari: then you get dumped back wherever you were except all attachemnts are gone [11:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact the amount even for my avatar is already at 30-40 HTTP requests [11:12] Mata Hari: you have to clear cache and relog to get them back again [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: is that with latest master or has that been true for longer? [11:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: within teleport [11:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: an easy way to fail it actually [11:12] Arielle Popstar: longer [11:12] Mata Hari: it's what I reported in the HG teleports Mantis [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, sounds like you have some other issues then [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: is this on osgrid? [11:13] Mata Hari: no, I've isolated it to the volume [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, hg eleports will be particularly problematic with the asset transfer requirements [11:13] Mata Hari: this i inside OSG, or from my own standalone to OSG, or anything [11:13] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it is 2 requests to useraccount service, 1 to homeagent, 1 to foreignagent, 10 to inventory, almost 20 to asset [11:13] Mata Hari: it's wiorse for HG though [11:13] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that is a lot [11:13] Mata Hari: but it will happen in OSG regioon-to-region if I'm wearing a lot of mesh [11:13] Mata Hari: and if all of it is textured [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: Freaky, wich viuewer. there's some setting newer viewers use default already lower in the viewerr. try to remeber wich one. things its to high for you [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: has no viewer dependence [11:14] Mata Hari: what I'm wearing now cannot teleport....I have to Ruth, then tp, then rewear [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it is just dependent on the appearance [11:14] Dahlia Trimble: teleports and region crossings are difficult whenever wearing a lot of anything [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: because there are just too many requests in between [11:14] Mircea Kitsune: Never had any issues with attachments in ages on OSGrid. Except HG ones, I never tried them [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it looks awful when looking at it and considering the dangling throttling in HTTP server [11:15] Mata Hari: I'm just suggesting that it's gpoing to be a huge issue in the future if mesh and advanced mats become more commonplace [11:15] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: observable in wireshark traces and logs [11:15] Mircea Kitsune: Why? Is mesh and matts stored differently, and harder to handle? [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: Freaky: If the throttling is causing problems then that will have to be addressed [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: check if your viewerr "MeshMaxConcurrentRequests" in debug is set to 16 or lower. old viewers use 32 and thats for soem to muhc. SL is goig to lower that number to 16 sofar i know [11:15] Mata Hari: could the basic tp not be completed before the full appearance daa has finished being sent? [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: I preferred it the way I had it before but I ran into backlash from other devs so I made it assets [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: btw good test for me next time to [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: backlash? [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: well the asset part is a kitely patch [11:16] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: you guys should actually use traffic shapers to simulate slower connections to know what happens [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: there's almost certainly a lot of room for improvement and optimization in tp [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: esp, wrt attachments [11:16] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact I can trigger the throttling part with a few requests per second [11:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and it stalls then for seconds [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: I expect nobdy has worked on it under more complex conditions [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, hi Pathfinder :) [11:17]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: up to 20sec easily [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: not that people don't know how to simulate this stuff [11:17]  Arielle Popstar: do you have a slower connection Mata? [11:17]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: hi Mircea :) [11:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: nobody did probably response tests before me [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: why didn't they like the dynattrs implementation? [11:17] Mata Hari: no....very fast [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: unfortunately, I expect that's right [11:17] Mata Hari: 5up [11:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: half of the sims sit on home connections [11:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and quite some standalones I think [11:18] Arielle Popstar: i been seeing similar from the past months masters but was blaming it on a currently slow upload speed [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: Justin, Im not sure I remember why after all the conversation [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: it becomes very hard to make that kind of stuff work well, thuogh I know it doesn't help that the implementations don't try and handle it [11:18]  Mata Hari: there's probably also some stuff lingering from Meline's December code that isn't helpting things [11:18] Mata Hari: lots of clouds at parties [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I think kitely didnt like it because of extra space requrements and xml parsing time [11:19] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: justin use a wan emulator as this one http://wanem.sourceforge.net/ [11:19] Arielle Popstar: posible and bit confusing atm at what is actually Master [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: xml parsing time is an issue, though to be honest anything in dynattrs right now is overwhelmed by all the other xml in a serialized object [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: :) [11:19]  Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle. why nut just a swithc where you can set ingress and egress [11:19]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Justin XML parsing is done in DOM tree parsers and then converted to dictionary [11:19]  Mata Hari: I think most people would be content if their tp worked but they had to wait for a while before they finally rezzed....it's the failed tp and after-effects of the fail that's so panful [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: are you seeing any examples where wearables are being recreated? [11:19]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: making a double build of tree structures [11:20]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that is memory consumption in extreme [11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: i have ony cost not to much [11:20]  Mata Hari: yes....I have (so far) purged about 25-30 shapes and skins that it's made for me in the alst couple weeks [11:20] Arielle Popstar: ingsss/egress? [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: usually first time teleporting to somewhere is slower, subsequest teleports to the same place take advantage of region asset caching [11:20] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: mee too again a damn "Failed Wearable Replacement" Shirt [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: For you arielle upload and download [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: its just the nature of the beast :/ [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: happens in SL too [11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Ahh, such a crowded meeting today ^^ [11:21] Joe Builder: Any new advancements coming to ODE in the future? Justin [11:21] Mata Hari: slower is fine....failed + have to clear viewer cache + relog everyt ime is a PITA [11:21] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it happens too when wright is practically empty [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: joe: I don't anticipate them. Future is BulletSim at this point [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: I never fully understood which is better between ODE and BulletX. But most people prefer bullet [11:22] Joe Builder: is that what the majority of opensims needs> or is it a developer look at how it should be? [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: ODE dont support newer things [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: yes, there's a whole lump of changed appearance code which has to now be debugged [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, sounds like wherever you have been visiting has some other issues not related specifically to materials [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: In the VERY long past however, ODE was better than Bullet on Opensim. Last time I tested that though was +5 years ago [11:22] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: why was it put in that state into the code at all [11:22] Mata Hari: LBSA Plaza? [11:23] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I disabled that TryAndRepairWearable entirely on my sims [11:23] Mike Age: what? [11:23] Joe Builder: as of now bulletsim shows no advancement over physical vehicles [11:23] Mike Age: Hi there [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Main problem with ODE IIRC was that objects kept intersecting then were sent flying all over the place. I remember Bullet never had that as much [11:23] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: because it fails on login process for me too on local connections [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: it's a good question - I don't understand why that stuff was added [11:23] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I think I came across a request limiter in the code path used by that module [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yet [11:24] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: We are using ODE, but analyzing PhysX since I heard they are more compatible with SL Scripts. [11:24] Joe Builder: so, a SL clone of early 2005 is our answer [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: PhysX is proprietary. Unreliable IMO for Opensim given its nature. Nice to have support over of course [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: *proprietary and for Nvidia only [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: i know a while ago some DDOS style protection where put in opensim login. not sure if thats what greaky bites [11:25] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Justin so then I ask you what for is your voting right when it is not exercised?? [11:25] Sarah Kline: Bullet engine is used by Grand Theft Auto and Disney studios and intel is sponsoring this [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, well if you hypergrid teleport to lbsa plaza from a grid running on a old computer in someone's closet, there will be issues [11:25] Mata Hari: speaking of SL scripts....can I please beg someome who has some coding skills to take a lot at and fix llSeltLinkPrimitiveParamsFast when the target is a seated avi....it's been broken for 18 months and it's kind of a huge deal since that's how all poseball-less furniture, etc is made in SL [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: er, voting right? [11:25] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I was reading that InWorldz is using it pretty successfully [11:25] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I read the page of the current opensim developers [11:26] Mircea Kitsune: Mata: Is there a Mantis about it? Hopefully someone can fix it then [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: It mentions committers have voting right on the future of the opensim code base. [11:26] Arielle Popstar: why should there be Dahglia? [11:26] Arielle Popstar: Dahlia [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: there is a right of veto over any change, though that has to be justified [11:26] Mata Hari: Melanie says Avination has had a fix for more than a year and said she'd donate it....that was back in the summer.... [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: so if there should be such thing, I would actually expect reviews [11:26] Kayaker Magic: LOL, Mata, I have been bugging them for more than 18 months about moving seated avatars!!! [11:26] Joe Builder: but who cars whats its used for, so are many other physics engines, all im saying all scripts now need to be changed to a extremly pre historic SL type, all the ode stull in the garbage i suppose? so we all go back to day 1 [11:27] Mata Hari: yep Kayaker....that's the function [11:27] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I think that's what's holding the creators back. [11:27] Arielle Popstar: Joe, the physics engine can be changed in the opensim.ini [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Um... I'm confused about something I'm noticing. Are only people on the same sim as you reported as Online in the friends list? Cuz I have quite a few friends here, and only those in this sim show. [11:27] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: so Justin if you can only veto that means actually anything can be dumped and then reverted only? [11:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: does not make sense at all [11:28] Joe Builder: all im saying is i bet the majority are really disappointed no more ode fixs are advancements for a older SL clone of a engine [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: you cant compare inworldz physics with opensim. 1 reason. hardware. [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: as opposed to what? [11:28] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: oh? [11:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: when you talk about justified veto only and no justified addition on changes like that [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: joe: ODE patches are still welcome, but I don't see the point of spending a lot of time on it [11:29]  Joe Builder: let me ask you [11:29] Arielle Popstar: there hasnt been any ode advancement in over 3 years afaik [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: ODE and Bullet are both great. One at least will hopefully advance [11:29] Arielle Popstar: Ubit was the last one and that wasn't in core [11:29] Joe Builder: you think bullet is superior in vehicle movement as of today?? [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Personally, I find physics pretty much OK as they are now. Can't think by myself what can be improved further [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: I honestly don't see your point [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: Well its not ODE thats going to advance [11:30] Joe Builder: not sure why [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: Why isn't Bullet defaulted if it's better? [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: bullet is default in master [11:30] Joe Builder: all that brain power :) needs to be focused on what works [11:30]  Mircea Kitsune: ah [11:30]  Arielle Popstar: well Ode could advance if a Ode dev stepped forward [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: bullet get default with 0.8 [11:30]  Mircea Kitsune: My sims still use ODE. Might wanna change [11:30]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the point is that changes of that kind have to have some kind of pre-test by all active developers before dumping that on the users at all [11:31]  Inanna Beaumont: hi all :-) [11:31] Mircea Kitsune: Does this sim have Bullet now currently? [11:31] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: does not need to be weeks but at least some in regards to compatibility [11:31] dan banner: yes mircea [11:31] Mircea Kitsune: nice [11:31] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: anybody have exirience with opensim server configuration? [11:31] Joe Builder: my vehicles are closely to SL quality [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: that hasn't been the culture. And to be honest, that kind of thing takes a lot of scarce dev time [11:31] Joe Builder: with ODE [11:31] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and what does fixing unchecked commits do with developers' time? [11:31] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: they kill even more time [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: with bullet i can use pretty fine soem sl free verhicle script. dont want to go physics with ode. oh the drama with ode.. [11:32] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: can anybody help start new region? [11:32] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: it seems you have brain at last [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: fixing code that is there is easier than reviewing code before it goes in. [11:32] Mata Hari: I think what Freaky is saying is that most users are willing to suffer the pains of the assorted small bugs, but getting major (and extremely obvious) ones added is very frustrating [11:32] Joe Builder: copy/paste where is the challenge [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Playing around with a cube in the sandbox. It slides too much and lags a bit, but the physics are as good as I'd imagine them getting [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: believe me, it's fustrating for me too [11:32] Mata Hari: I believer it [11:33]  Joe Builder: bullet should be a 2nd choice IMO [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: and I don't think the approach to getting that code in is a good idea [11:33] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Whats the best way for SL Vehicles scripts that use the Havok Physics engine to migrate over to OpenSIM? [11:33] Joe Builder: pre 2005 [11:33] Joe Builder: copy/paste [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: Bullet is really nr. 1 ODE is one of the reasons i stoppe ddoing things [11:34] Mircea Kitsune: I think I'd prefer Bullet too [11:34] Joe Builder: ode works fine, scripters are lazy as hell [11:34] Arielle Popstar: Bulletsim strives for s/l compatibility [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, :) [11:34]  Mircea Kitsune: As for vehicle scripts from the main grid, I assume they will work. But need to be tweaked to see how they behace on Opensim. There are different physical rules here after all :) [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: Jpoe, sofar i know ODE dont support all physics comamnds bullet support more [11:34] Mata Hari: I guess it would be nice if people tested their code slightly before putting it in master just to make sure it works more or less as intended and doesn't make things go too haywire [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: besides sofar i know its very hard to maintain ode and improve it [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: one could argue that it was tested on another grid. But that has enormously different conditions to something like osgrid [11:35] Joe Builder: hehe [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: It's good to have an alternative too, hence why ODE is good to keep around [11:35] Joe Builder: thats funny [11:35] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, sorry, but git master is a *development* tree. If you want tested code, stick to the releases [11:35] Joe Builder: my cars preform better than SL hows that [11:35] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: which are master builds by the way dahlia [11:35] Dahlia Trimble: if git master has to be perfect, development becomes impossible [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, the thing is so complex that you will always find problems after commit, it's practically impossible to hunt them down beforehand [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Nice :) [11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: DONT USE GIT MASTER [11:36]  Mircea Kitsune uses git master, but rarely any problems with that [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: the problem with that is if no one uses git master it won't get properly tested [11:36]  Mata Hari: right [11:36]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: dahlia it does not need to be perfect but it should be at least checked on changes that actually influence core features before making something a release on OSG releases [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: since it is the case that no one tests beforehand [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: There's no 'stable' software in the world [11:36]  Mata Hari: I don't mind small or ever medium problems....they're expected [11:36]  Arielle Popstar: osg is supposed to be a test grid [11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, its a DEVELOPMENT tree. [11:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have076 and master versions of standalone so I can check things before reporting bugs. [11:36] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: so you would like your washing machine make your clothes white all the timee? [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: osg is explicitly a testing grid [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: Really? I thought it's just a grid for people to come over on and host sims and all. [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: Not that the whole grid is meant for testing [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky if you cant understand the concept of a development tree, then stick to released code. [11:37] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: For BullettSIM is there a file where we could fine tune it? [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia, that you could better shout :O [11:37] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I know what a development tree but you do not seem to understand the issue at all here [11:37] Joe Builder: yeah called delete lol kidding [11:38] Arielle Popstar: opensimdefaults.ini [11:38] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: That holds the core physics file [11:38] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact you are telling right now all people have to update because of the teleport issues produced by the recent change [11:38] dan banner: Dayna: OpenSimDefaults.ini [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: I understand.... I smend my time adding features to software and receive no compensation and a lot of complaints. [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: 0/7.6 is ode. 0.8 is going to be bullet. and 0.8 still in development. and long time before release. so there can be bugs inside and things can be fixt if people found then. and like to walk on the edge [11:39] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Okay thanks. One of my developers was asking that and I couldn't give him an answer [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: maybe i should spend my time elsewhere [11:39] Joe Builder: back to day1 [11:39] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: rich they have to if they want to get rid of the exceptions in their log files and the failing appearance to show as clouds [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: I spend my time adding features to software too. My main issue is I have to wait ages till the developers include those, then when X months later a bug caused by them is discovered, I take the blame [11:39] Joe Builder: ode is fine as it is, no major complaints why introduce a new engine is beyond me is all parts of understanding [11:39] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I accept it too when there are things failing with less influence sometimes [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but that scale is just a bit high you had recently done [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: Inever liked stable. anyway bugs like me so.. [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, Im not aware of those features you are referring to [11:40]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the teleport protocol change [11:40] Arielle Popstar: Joe it is one of several options over which you have control [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: including the change on visual params [11:40] Kayaker Magic: I have lots of issues with ODE, things that didn't work, and bullet fixed them. [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: visual params is unavaoidable [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that forces all people to use something from this year [11:40] Joe Builder: why not develop what works? not a maybe [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: the reason it fails on older opensim releases is that they were not coded properly [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and you stay saying you should not use git master??? [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, you should bring those issues up with the devs who are involved [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: there will be an 0.7.6.1 soon containig the fix [11:41] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Bullets don't fly straight in ODE either [11:41] Arielle Popstar: yes, the Vis params is a pain because of no backaward compatibility with a .7.4 region i run [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: Right Kyaker. same for me [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: Joe. ode is difficult to maintain and add things [11:42] Joe Builder: add what? [11:42] Joe Builder: its there [11:42] Joe Builder: look for it [11:42]  Joe Builder: i did [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: New functions. fix bugs. fix lots of physics problems [11:42] Joe Builder: and im not a freakin scripter [11:42] Kayaker Magic: But ODE is terrible and full of bugs Joe, I cannot use it!!! [11:43] Joe Builder: why does a dumb ass like me make crap work in ODE and others who have knowledge cant please explain [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: All I know s Bullet is more maintained as well as popular [11:43] Arielle Popstar: :) [11:43]  Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Does Bullet solve the vehicle crossing issue? [11:43]  Franzjosef Dryke: once goes the others break....thats os [11:43]  Franzjosef Dryke: bye [11:43]  Mircea Kitsune: Don't think so, the vehicle issue isn't physics IIRC [11:43]  Mircea Kitsune: Last time I heard there's loss of controls over the vehicle [11:44]  Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Any idea of a fix for it? [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: The working on verhicle crossing. with bulletsim. not sure if thats working with ode [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: But it takes some more time to implement and debug [11:44]  Mircea Kitsune: Oh. So it does work? [11:44]  Joe Builder: yes working on a engine thats nooo where near ready go figure *sigh [11:44]  Arielle Popstar: How are Melanie' merges coming along? [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: Not really now. only small things [11:44] Mircea Kitsune: OK [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: there are things to fix, as you've heard [11:45] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I had read that code was donated that fixes that issue. [11:45] Kayaker Magic: Joe, look at mantis 6040, the linear motor in ODE had the Z component set to zero, airplanes could not fly up at an angle! [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: appearance stuff, by the sound of it [11:45]  Joe Builder: wanna bet? [11:45] Joe Builder: how do i do it then [11:45] Mata Hari: appearance is definitely still dicey [11:45] Joe Builder: hehe [11:45] Joe Builder: funny [11:46] Joe Builder: planes go up [11:46]  Joe Builder: go down [11:46] Arielle Popstar: Is she done with her merges or more coming? [11:46] Mata Hari: unless you wear a cloud avi, in which case it's great :P [11:46] Joe Builder: roll [11:46] Joe Builder: yaw [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: Joe, hacking in lsl code and work around a bug [11:46] Joe Builder: what else is there [11:46] Joe Builder: dont be silly [11:46] Joe Builder: i use 0 lsl [11:46] Joe Builder: i use [11:46] Kayaker Magic: You can only make planes go up by using several calls, like using buoyancy to make the plane go up instead of linear motor. [11:46] Joe Builder: what has been in ode for years [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: Honestly, I don't really know the this point. A lot of things are said [11:47] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:47] Arielle Popstar: and varregions cant go in till she is done? [11:47] Joe Builder: again im no scripter but a hell of a modifier of whats possible adding nothing [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle; well no, I thnink they could be merged. But that decision is up to radams [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Will Kokua support var regions BTW? [11:48] Arielle Popstar: yes and does Mircea [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Awesome [11:48] Mata Hari: that's why I think it's safer to assume that Avination's fix for moving avis isn't something we should hold our breaths for and was hoping someone else had the ability to look at it [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would say, radams is taking the approach of making things work in a branch first [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, I'd probably agree ;) [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: I would agree. I just hope there is no chilling effect [11:49]  Arielle Popstar: Avination uses a version of Ode? [11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: Justin, developing soem stuff now on standalone var opensim. [11:49]  Mircea Kitsune: Is Avination hypergrided to OSGrid? Wanted to try it out, but didn't feel like registering an account yet [11:49]  Mata Hari: maybe if she had less on her plate she'd be more reliably productive with the things she *is* working on [11:49]  Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: They are private last time I checked [11:49]  Chibo Ryder: They are not on the HG [11:50]  Mircea Kitsune: ok [11:50]  Mata Hari: they area a close, paid grid [11:50]  Mata Hari: but they do contribute code from time to time [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: just for the Record, its not that melanie has to much on her plate, she is currently sick and heavily medicated [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Not that I don't like OSGrid... was just hoping for more activity there :p [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: anyway [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: hey neb [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:50] Mata Hari: true, Neb [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: welcome to the argument :) [11:50]  Mircea Kitsune: Ouch. Hope she gets better [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry I am somewhat distracted [11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: wow, neb did not hear all the noise :) [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: I am not home at the momment [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: oh right. forgot nebadon [11:51] Arielle Popstar: on Lumiya Neb? [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: no [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: on my laptop [11:51] Chibo Ryder: but you should make an account on Avination to check it out. It's one of the few closed grids worth the time. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but other people in the room talking to me at same time [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: closed as in not on hypergrid? [11:51] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Yes [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: Nice [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: IMO it's worth the time if there are more users online at once [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the problem with most grids. [11:52] Mircea Kitsune: And with Opensim overall [11:52] Kayaker Magic: Lots of builders and creators are aftraid to develop on non-closed grids. [11:52] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I personally like having connectivity to the Hypergrid. [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: Im afraid to develop on closed grids :P [11:52] Arielle Popstar: with the state of HG transfer, I wouldnt know why ;) [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think HG or something like it has to be the future, but there are a lot of issues [11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: I stay away from HG enabled grids except for this one. I come here just for the meetings. [11:53]  Mircea Kitsune: It always strikes me how everyone is willing to improve Opensim and we talk about so much at these meetings. Yet apart from those meetings, nothing ever goes on... [11:53]  Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I was reading that there is a way to add a field for stopping items from crossing into the HG [11:53]  Arielle Popstar: check on Irc [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: not sure what you mean, things go on [11:53]  Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Activities, ahngouts, etc [11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: i think HG only get stronger. [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: not as fast as one would like [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: **hangouts [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: oh, social ctivities? [11:54] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: I know that Singularity and one other offer that [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I see issues that affect me and I will attempt to fix them. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya I think you are not paying attention if thats what you think Mircea [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: Anything at all really. Even meeting peopel and doing something. With only 40 to 100 people online at once on SGrid though, there's no one to meet and not much to do [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: I only login for the meetings and when I start my sims up and do stuff on them [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, hang out on the OS developer channel for a while and watch how often code is pushed to the main repository. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: This is a developer meeting [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: you can conmfigure opensim to to keep assets inside the grid when you HG out [11:54] Tear Somerset: There are some things going on, but you have to know about it, or know someone who is plugged in to find the spots.. [11:54] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          d466446: 2014-01-18 01:39:45 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:55] Mata Hari: 3 weekly things that I go to regularly and I know there are more.....and that's jst in OSG.....other grids also have tons of stuff [11:55] Arielle Popstar: Opensim Virtual G+ group pluch Osgrid and several others [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: talking about OSgrid is kind of off topic [11:55] Tear Somerset: no search [11:55] Mata Hari: so if you HG around a bit you're never bored [11:55] Mata Hari: (if you can get there) [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: well, w're nearly at meeting end anyway [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: I know there's code being pushed. Just saying little ever happens in-world. Most sims are deserted, except this (Wright Plaza) and LBSA plaza... and I think a sandbox [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Ah, right [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: probably had enough arguing tbh :) [11:55]  Mata Hari: but ironing out a few of the more annoying HG bugs would be handy [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: if you want ti discuss the inner workings of OSgrid please join the #osgrid IRC channel and it can be discussed there [11:55]  Arielle Popstar: arguing? Lively debate [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have a topic . [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I think that's a general issue around these systems [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: otherise you are off topic for this meeting [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: ppl have said the same of sl for quite a long time [11:56]  Mircea Kitsune: Didn't know that [11:56]  Mircea Kitsune: *that they did [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: whats up Andrew? [11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: I use same osseach, osprofile, and flotsam group modules in standalone and in a grid. In Standalone I get duplicate results. How can I check if core search and groups are disabled? [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: well, maybe that's unfair. Maybe taht's more about lots of empty sims than nothing to do per se [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: would that show in "show modules"? [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I did find I had to comment out SearchModule in Standalone.ini but that didn't help. [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: ah no, because we load allmodules even if they are disabled (which is superdumb) [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, is show modules showing all modules now? There was a time it didn't show all of the loaded ones. [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I believe it is [11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: though because even disabled modules are "loaded" it might not help [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: unless you disable them in the same way that diva distro does, perhaps [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Searching is working in grid mode so I'm wondering if I missed something in the ini files or it is a bug. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I recently updated my standalones from 075 to 076 and redid the ini's to pick up all recent changes to the ini's for 076 [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: People search results also crash SingularityAlpha which is a separate issue I need to investigate. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks like I'll be digging in to the OS code to check if search is being done by both addon and core modules at the same time. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: btw, if we aren't supposed to touch stanalone.ini why is search module specified there? [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Shouldn't that be in StandaloneCommon.ini? [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I would guess it should be in StandaloneCommon.ini then [12:01] dan banner: good question [12:01] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: Any news on Cross region scripts working? [12:01] Mircea Kitsune: BTW, I did have one question about another thing. Related to an improvement I saw on the main grid recently [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, ok. I'll make a note to file a bug report about that suggesting the setting be moved. [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: If you could attach a patch that does the move that would be good [12:02] Cuteulala Artis is Online [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: needs to be done for both standalone and grid (and hg ini)? [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. I'll file the report first. Doing the patch will depend on what else I have on my plate. [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: ok [12:02]  Mircea Kitsune: When you login / teleport to a sim, how are all the primitives in the world loaded? At random, or closest to the avatar first, ordered by distance? Because the second is a lot better, and Linden fixed it too recently (Project Amazing or something) [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I am behind with patches anyway [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, i'll need to check all the ini files. [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: there is an ordering config param somewhere [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea you talk about intrest lists [12:03] Mircea Kitsune: Nice. Is it default? [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: [InterestManagement] UpdatePrioritizationScehem [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I already have it on my list of reports to file. [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: in SL. opensim i dont know. but with var region i think its intressting to add on the list [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: I think [12:03] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: It is in a ticket# 1737 [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I still have a bunch of reports yet to be filed. [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea they are loaded in the order they were loaded into the simulator at startup time [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: well, there are no shortage of reports :) [12:04]  Mircea Kitsune: Hmm, I see [12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: there is no optimization based on avatar location [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to get to another meeting [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I filed a few recently. I have about another 10 pending. [12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: something for 0.9dev dahlia ? [12:04]  Mircea Kitsune: Idwa was sending them to each avatar based on the object's distance from the avatar, so closest always load first [12:04]  Mircea Kitsune: **idea [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: see you next week, folks [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: tc, justin [12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:04]  Mircea Kitsune: Later, take care! [12:04]  Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: TC [12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: I think SL does that Mircea [12:05]  Mircea Kitsune: SL yes. Wasn't sure how Opensim added it [12:05]  Kayaker Magic: EOM: End Of Meeting [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: there is also some new caching features SL recently added [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia, sl is working on that. i think its not compleet implemented [12:05] Kayaker Magic: bye all [12:05] Mata Hari: Mircea: in Firestrom it's Preferences>Firestorm>General and tick "enable progressive draw distance stepping" [12:05] Dayna.Bedrosian @grid.ufgqgrid.org:8002: bye [12:05] dan banner: bye everyone [12:05] Arielle Popstar: Tc J [12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: bye [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: wb arielle