Chat log from the meeting on 2009-02-10

[10:36] Leela Chaudhry is Online [10:39] Youtube Video Player v1.0: [10:39] Youtube Video Player v1.0: [10:39] Youtube Video Player v1.0: Enter the title number OR a youtube URL at /4 [10:40] Fly Man is Online [10:40] Fly Man: Morning [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:41] Fly Man: Am I too early ? [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: we have about 30 minutes still [10:41] Fly Man: Ooo, that's good :) [10:41]  Fly Man: I thought we started at 10 AM [10:41]  Fly Man: but must have been my misunderstanding [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: no 11am [10:47]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server  0.6.2.8300  (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False [10:49] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server  0.6.2.8300  (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False [10:50] Michelle Argus is Online [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Starky [10:55]  Starky Rubble: Hey Neb, Fly [10:56]  Starky Rubble: Did you ever run that pruning query? [10:56]  Starky Rubble: on old assets [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: nope [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: we really cant until we move assets out of mysql [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: its to harsh [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: requires downing the grid for another day basiclly [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: so we are converting how assets are stored [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: out of mysql [10:57]  Starky Rubble: To? [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: some sort of file based system [10:58]  Starky Rubble: Bluewall was talking foreign keys [10:58]  Starky Rubble: as a way to keepan active handle [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm i missed that conversation [10:58]  Michelle Argus: hi [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: Hello michelle [10:59]  Starky Rubble: I dunno - if you took it down for a day - but that addressed the underlying challege [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: about all we have done so far is convert the asset table from innodb to myisam [10:59] Starky Rubble: folks would be accepting [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: we cleared out the ibdata1 file for mysql [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: and rebuilt everything [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: got about 15gb back [11:00] Starky Rubble: good work [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: now adam is re-rewriting the asset server [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: for differnt store [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: using cable beach and file based storage for the blobs [11:00] Starky Rubble: hmm [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: our problem is space [11:01] Starky Rubble: will there be an easy way to find unlinked assets? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: we need to be able to have multiple servers running for strage [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not the problem [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: right now the problem is we have outgrown mysql [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: and we can not run Garbage collection [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: wihtout downing the grid for a long while [11:01] Starky Rubble: rigth [11:01] Starky Rubble: right [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: so we are working towards being able to do cleaning without downing the grid [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: and sane storage [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: a 50gb mysql table is not good in any terms [11:02] Starky Rubble: thats where Bluewalls key conversation came in [11:02]  Starky Rubble: heh [11:03] Starky Rubble whispers: how many assests? [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: 1.5 million [11:03] Starky Rubble: yipes [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya its growing pretty quickly [11:04] Starky Rubble: I prolly just added 50 making a new dance pad lol [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:04] Starky Rubble: it adds up - its crazy cause 45 of them will never be rferenced again [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: we'll also be working towrads offloading rarely accessed items to a sub system [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: for archiving [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and there will likely be a short delay in retrieving those items [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: as they get restored [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say right now though [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: so early [11:06] Michelle Argus: are also plans to have some assest inerope or elsewere? [11:06] Michelle Argus: in europe ^^ [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: no plans right now no [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: the cost is just to high [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: being we operate on a shoestring budget [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and the software right now cant support that [11:07] Michelle Argus: k, would be great though, because currently there are huge probs with the line to USA [11:07] Fly Man: Michelle, really ? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya that would still be a issue michelle [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: with replication [11:08] Fly Man: I know my data lines are getting powered up [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: there would be problems when the line has problems [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: likely would just be more problems [11:08] Fly Man: but for this instance in Egypt and the LA => Londen connection was well so I heard [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but hopefully this new system lets us distrubute better [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: and have more routes [11:08] Michelle Argus: yip, sims crashing badtime currently, we had to blow off our german meeting yesterday and ended on Lbsa to end there [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: really its not a matter of getting servers in EU [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: just more routes [11:09] Fly Man: well, with cable beach hopefully the distribution will be p2p [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: yea what we need is better asset cache on the simulators [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: so its not constantly nagging the asset servers [11:09] Fly Man: Well, maybe a small Asset service inside the region server itself [11:09] Fly Man: that grabs the info and saves it temporaryly [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya some form of cached assets in the simulator [11:10] Michelle Argus: yip, that sound good [11:10] Fly Man: uhm, something like the j2k [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: something better than we have now [11:10] Michelle Argus: all the rezzed things in that chache would already help [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: we do cache but eveyrthing we do could stand improvement [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so in time this will all not be much a problem [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: right now its very sloppy still [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt handle bad network traffic well [11:10] Michelle Argus: but working ;) [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt recover well [11:10]  Fly Man: well, to include a small cache into the region should not be that hard ? [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: there is alot we can do to improve [11:11]  Fly Man: most regions do run a MySQL or other backend [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hard to say [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i bet there are more sqlite regions on osgrid [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but its close [11:11]  Fly Man: or maybe have the region do some p2p traffic with the larger regions [11:11]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [11:11]  Fly Man: those that are on higher ram, disk, etc [11:12]  BlueWall Slade is Online [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: yea there will probably be all kinds of solutions presented [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: hard to say right now which will pan out and what wont [11:12]  paulie Flomar is Online [11:13]  Starky Rubble: What would you do Fly? Have some sort of capability rating for sims? [11:13] BlueWall Slade: Hi Homer [11:13] Homer Horwitz: Hi [11:13]  paulie Flomar: Howdeh, everyone. :) [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:13]  Orion Hax: i think the proposed distributed asset would solve alot of problems [11:13]  Fly Man: Starsky, that would be something ... [11:14]  Nessaia Vegas is Offline [11:14]  Fly Man: but I was thinking more like Kazaa / E3 / etc [11:14]  Fly Man: the network carries the information [11:14]  Starky Rubble: ahhh [11:14]  Fly Man: not the node [11:14]  Starky Rubble: right [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: the couch is 2 parts [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: if you sit on wrong part it shoots you to center [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: make sure you select cushions [11:15]  BlueWall Slade: That makes for a good elevator though :) [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:15] Carlos Roundel: hi [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: hello carlos [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: hi [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: and everyone ariving [11:15] Michelle Argus: hihi, elevator to hell [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: wait a few more minutes for some people to show up [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: get started soon though [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: about hdd space, how much must sl not have ? [11:16] Fly Man: Richardus, Uhm, Terrabytes ;) [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:16]  BlueWall Slade: PBytes [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: they are well into the billions of assets [11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: not exabytes ? [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online [11:17]  scum bag: hi [11:17]  OM G: hi [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello [11:17]  paulie Flomar: :) [11:17] scum bag: can i ask question plz [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: you're a scum bag? [11:18] scum bag: how can one have multiple streaming videos like u have here [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: parcels [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: parcels [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: each parcel gets its own stream [11:19] Kitto Flora: Did the meeting start yet? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: just getting started [11:19] scum bag: so u divide region into parcels basically? [11:19] Kitto Flora: I have 3 items [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:20] scum bag: Nebadon, what does your HDTV Freeview script do? does this offer multple vids? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya its the standard open source freeview script [11:20] scum bag: ok, thankyou for info [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: someone already know how to get video on 64bit linux ? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that might be a good question to ask to the LL viewer group [11:21] Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002: is question? [11:21] Tommi Laukkanen is Online [11:21] scum bag: Freeview instructions, "drop script onto parcel" ? how basically? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ask later scum bag [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we are holding a meeting [11:21] scum bag: ok [11:22]  scum bag: thanks again [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: sure no problem [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if ckrinke is coming [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: he might be bit busy today [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but we can get started if anyone has anything they want to talk about [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: sure things are a bit laggy while we have logins occuring at this level [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully it levels off soon [11:23] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002 will probably crash meanwhile .. :| [11:23] sim core: :-) [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: nice crowd today anyway, this is great test if anything else [11:24]  Fly Man: Nebadon, what version is WP on now ? [11:24]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server  0.6.2.8300  (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:24] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: heh [11:25] Fly Man: Okay, so past the 2nd change of code ... [11:25] Fly Man smiles [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps you could tell us what is happening with the asset db, Nebadon? [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: well right now the conversion from innodb to myisam went well [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: that was why we were out all day [11:25] BlueWall Slade is Online [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: we converted and cleared out mysql rebuilt everything and gained back about 15gb of space [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: to buy us some time while we come to terms with a new asset storage system [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Adam Frisby is working on that as we speak [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: no real ETA right now [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: but until then cleanup will be postponed [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: as our MySQL table is just to large [11:26] Charles Krinke is Online [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: for any kind of significant cleanup effort it requires another day of no grid [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully this new system will allow us to get past that and do Garbage Collection without downing everything [11:27] paulie Flomar: the myisam system? [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: so wht sparked this. Running out of disk space? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: we were down to 29gb free [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: we now have aprox 43gb free [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: and using about 50gb in assets [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: stored as blobs in mysql [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: we are miles beyond sanity with mysql [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: so its time we find something new [11:28] sim core: ? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: our asset table is 50gb and 1.5 million rows [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: we have outgrown mysql [11:28] paulie Flomar: considering region-based asset storage? [11:28] sim core: Isn't it a cleanup sign? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: file based [11:28] Charles Krinke: Sorry I'm late. To amplify Nebadon's comments, I suspect other grids will see this as their assets table fills up. [11:28] Mike Cortez: Amazon A3 ? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: unlikely [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: to expensive [11:28] Charles Krinke: US$ [11:29] paulie Flomar: doesnt google use mysql? [11:29] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: mysql tables cannot be cleaned periodically ? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: we are looking at our own distrubuted file based system [11:29] sim core: Just proper table coding for mysql should fix that, right? :-J [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: not without taking the grid offline for a day [11:29] sim core: Yes [11:29] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: well.. I can live with that :| [11:29] Snowdrop Short: berkeley sleepycat? [11:29] Charles Krinke: From the OpenSim viewpoint, lets concentrate on the software and the grids need to figure out how to get the storage space required to stay viable. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: well we shouldnt have to is the point [11:29] Snowdrop Short: there are .net bindings for that [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: the reason we cant [11:29] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: ok [11:30]  Kitto Flora: Hello, I have 3 items: 1) Auto-fly patch; 2) Fly not working; 3) A strange and reproducible script problem. [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: is because we have really outgrown mysql's ability to store blobgs [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: with really was at 4gb [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: we outgrew mysql [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: we are now to 50gb [11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: Kitta: auto-fly? [11:30]  Charles Krinke: One of the issues is many terrainImage, all of which are not accessible nor useful. [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: 46 gb beyond what is considered sane usage [11:30]  sim core: Never heard mysql was limited before :-) [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: storing blobs yes [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it is [11:30]  Kitto Flora will present when invited [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: we will continue to use mysql for everything [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: except asset blobs [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: can you give any url references for this? [11:30] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: whatsa blob ? .. sorry .. i'm dutch .. it's like a keyword i'm missing [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ie sounds and jpgs [11:31] Charles Krinke: There are also each and every edit of each and every script, avatar, terrain, shoes, bra ever done on OSGrid [11:31] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: ah .. ty [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have anything handyt [11:31] Homer Horwitz: blob: Binary Large OBject [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: unless we expand to some very expensive mysql cluster [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: mysql is out [11:31] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: i c .. thnx Homer [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its not a option really [11:31] Imaze Rhiano: hi [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: our funds are limited [11:31] Tommi Laukkanen: I should warn you that taking binary data out of db is not without consequenses to data consistency [11:31] Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002: i serious problem my db is 10 GB and increase ... [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we can not afford a mysql expert nor the cluster it would require [11:31] sim core: Still makes no sense to me, mysql properly coded should work just as fine, I think :-) [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: and we would still outgrow it [11:31]  Fly Man: Nebadon, would Postgres be a option ? [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: lindens do not use mysql [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: no [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: and the buy bug on 64bit? [11:31]  BlueWall Slade: I don't understand the concept of creating an asset with a uuid, then creating a new one every edit? Why not update and retain the same uuid for it? [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: lindens use a million dollar file based system [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: litterlally spent over amillion dollars to date [11:32]  Tommi Laukkanen: I agree with bluewall [11:32]  sim core: Lindens would have to use sql enterprise :-) [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: it's the way LL architected things [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: on their asset storage [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I think that it does give you the advantage of cacheability [11:32] BlueWall Slade: ok, 'nuff said [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: lindens outgrew mysql in 2003 [11:32] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: but is dropping MySQL an only option ? [11:32] sim core: Enterprise? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they dont use it [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: cant use it [11:32]  BlueWall Slade: jcc, that's what I thougt might be the reason [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its not suitable [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know what they do use? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: Adam does [11:32] sim core: Doesn't mean it's limited to 50 gigs :-) [11:33]  Snowdrop Short: you must retain the asset as a value type, otherwise updates on itmes may cause changes to many different inventories [11:33]  Tommi Laukkanen: I would rather see distributed asset system than storing assets on disc [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: storing blobs in mysql has a sane limit of about 4gb [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: beyond that you cant run querries [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: or do counts [11:33]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: well.. my opensim days are over then.. cannot afford commercial dbs :| [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: or anything [11:33]  Tommi Laukkanen: I think we are doing architecture decissions on wrong basis here [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: without downing the entire grid [11:33]  Charles Krinke: My hope is that as OpenSim we consider the implications of MySQL growing the assets table to large values and we work out a strategy before we all head off a cliff. [11:33] Snowdrop Short: why not use sleepycat? [11:33] Penny Lane: Can't say I appreciate sitting on the seats making you go doggie style in middle of the floor. [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: you sat on the wrong item Penny [11:33] sim core: ( I don't sit here either :-) [11:34] paulie Flomar: Penny, click the dmittesly small cushion part that is barely showing. [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: is this some poseball Nebadon hid in the sofa? :) [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:34]  Charles Krinke: YEs [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: no they are sitting on the wrong object [11:34]  BlueWall Slade: it's a noob trap [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: the couch is 2 peices [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: cusions and couch [11:34]  Kevin Paisley: hehe [11:34]  BlueWall Slade: next time you'll be golden [11:34]  paulie Flomar: someone should move the cushions out a bit. :) [11:34] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: heh [11:34] BlueWall Slade: : [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting [11:34] Starky Rubble: lol [11:34] Penny Lane: Thanks [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try to improve on that [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:34]  sim core: I was wondering if we could avoid loading all those loadbalancing modules, those make me crash on osx since version 8250 [11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: i dont see use to have blobs if you can store that maby as seperate file. but maby i make think error [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: sim core: delete them [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: the goal is not to ditch mysql [11:35]  Mike Cortez: Is the current thought then, to store AssetID info in the DB, but then save the blob to disk, perhaps named as the AssetID -- then serve it out via say http or similiar? [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: but to store asset blobs [11:35]  sim core: Thank-you, justing :-) [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: outside of mysql [11:35] sim core: *Justin [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: honestly there is no other solution [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: if you have suggestions contact us on the -dev channel [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: now is not the time to really argue whats best [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: im just telling you whats happening [11:35] Charles Krinke: Another procedural item: We need a couple of folks to work with UCI to login to the two gateways at 3000,3000 and 7000,7000 after Diva turns them back on and ensure vandalism doesnt occur again [11:35] paulie Flomar: file based solutions are more condusive to the eventual move to http-based distributed assets anyway, right? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: the people working on it are not here [11:35] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: ofc .. i understand blobs and mysql trouble better now .. is all [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: we still intend on using mysql [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: for everything [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: just not assets [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: the files themselves [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: will be file based on mutliple servers [11:36] Kevin Paisley: do we have Dame Edna via videoconference on the main board in the front of the room joining us today? [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: I think this is a very complex area where there are potentially many solutions [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: mysql will just reference the disk based assets [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: instead of storing 50gb of jpgs [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: in the same table its querying [11:36] paulie Flomar: distributed assets over http, yeah. that sounds like the way to go. [11:36] Tommi Laukkanen: I have worked on content repositories and I would like to note for the log that all the systems where files are stored outside database are very prone to data inconsistencies [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: agree with nebadon [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: there is no level of mysql suitable for that [11:37] BlueWall Slade: just about anything I have seen suggest putting blobs outside the database anyway [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: not even a 100 server cluster [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i have readed to. [11:37] Tommi Laukkanen: It sounds like a good idea to store files outside but in practice you get a lot of problems when the systems are running [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its not worth it [11:38]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: how about a seperate server ? [11:38] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: a blob server ? [11:38] Penny Lane: We'll have storage inconsistencies no matter what we do. RDBMSs aren't a magic bullet, and when things go bad, they go very bad. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: blobs are bad [11:38] paulie Flomar: Tommi, thx for the heads-up. You can be invaluable in helping us anticipate and iron out those issues. :) [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: in any level of database [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: bad bad bad [11:38]  Snowdrop Short: have you guys looked into Berkeley Sleepycat [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: if 9you want the grid very slow [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:38]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: ok ok ok [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: we could do blobs [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: a blob server gives the same problem [11:38]  Imaze Rhiano: I am currently working with commercial project which goal is database engine suitable to store unstructured data (like images, videos and text documents) but it is far from ready... :( [11:38] Snowdrop Short: it is dual licenses [11:38] Tommi Laukkanen: Penny Lane that is not true, rdbms are best we have for data consistency [11:38] paulie Flomar: Someone look into SleepyCat! [11:38] Tommi Laukkanen: If we have to we should distribute assets to several databases based on hashes for example [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: using a file based asset ssytem [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: will allow us to distrubute files across many servers [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: spreading the load [11:39] Penny Lane: Tommi: they are, but when things go wrong, you can lose the whole shop. And it's not like we have great offsite data replication yet [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: to do that in mysql is expensive and fragile [11:39] Tommi Laukkanen: Yes and your machine room can burn :) [11:39]  sim core: I have no clue why a mysql cluster would not do the job, and also don't we all use save-oar?? :-) [11:39] Tommi Laukkanen: But data inconsistency because of failure during file save after or before record insert is much more likely to happebn [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: well i think also one thing it will allow us to do [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: is to start archiving rarely used assets to one server [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: will keeping very important stuff on a super high performing server [11:40] Charles Krinke: Nebadon is describing the assetServer MySQL which is not conducive to save oar. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but this is all long off still [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we are just getting started [11:40] sim core: I mean, if someone loses a shop, they use their oar? [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: none of this is happening this week [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its gonna be alot of poking and testing [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: before we go live [11:41] Charles Krinke: sim: yes [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it's always a good idea to back up your personally region [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: then if something were to happen to the assets it was using, you could just restore it [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: personally = personal [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: save-oar have its problems to. like parcels are not restored [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, that's something still not yet implemented [11:41] Charles Krinke: All are encouraged to make regular backups as there are really no guarantees. [11:41] Charles Krinke: Only "best effort" [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: we will never completely erase anything either [11:42] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: does this parcel have 'autoplay' activated ? :S [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there will always be backups we can fall too [11:42] sim core: Exactly, before changing mysql, might be better to think about organizing data better on mysql and fix oar so that rights and land are better restored? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there is less than 1% chance your assets will be lost for ever [11:42] Michelle Argus: save-oar... if the assestkeys would not change on load-oar..., that would also reduce assests when reloading. One more reason to have the option of loading with/without keys restored [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: atleast during a garbage collection cycle anyway [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: not always [11:42] Homer Horwitz: Hm, right. Media just started without me doing anything... [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there will be other reasons assets fail [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: unrelasted [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: unrelated [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: asset keys don't change - which is actually a potential weakness [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: imho [11:43] sim core: Yes, justin [11:43] Snowdrop Short: assets must be immutable [11:43] BlueWall Slade: dumping the local datastore should be the best way to backup regions?? [11:43] Snowdrop Short: how about setting up a new mysql asset server as a primary [11:43] sim core: And scripts need to be restored exactly on the same server [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: that won't save your assets though [11:44] Charles Krinke: With 1.5million assets and 11,000 users, I would think access time for an asset will continually get slower when one heads towards 100,000 users and 15 millioon assets consuming 500GBytes [11:44] Snowdrop Short: and then use the old one as secondary [11:44] Snowdrop Short: and use the two level approach neb talked about [11:44] Penny Lane: How hardwired in is the MySQL storage? I've been thinking of using Erlang's Mnesia database instead, in the general trend towards scalability. (Morg here) [11:44] BlueWall Slade: jcc++ [11:44] Snowdrop Short: only reversing the process [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: Penny: In principle it should be possible to write a db module for anything. We also support sqlite and mssql [11:44] Fly Man: K [11:44]  Snowdrop Short: assets which are not found on the primary are duplicated from the secondary [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: As well as experimental NHibernate work [11:44] Fly Man: Justing, can I break in ? [11:44] Tommi Laukkanen: Snowdrop Short immutable assets will take always one order of magnitude more space than replacing old version with new one same id [11:44]  Charles Krinke: As OSGrid, we are trying hard to just test SVN and MySQL is SVN [11:44] BlueWall Slade: haa Hi Morg [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: does seperate files on hdd increase speed of say texture loading ? maby if its co bined with read-only proxy [11:45] Penny Lane: Tnx Justin [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: fly Man: But of course :) [11:45]  Fly Man raises hand [11:45]  Fly Man: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Meeting [11:45]  Snowdrop Short: but if another inbentory references the "old" asset [11:45]  Fly Man: I have just succesfully finished the latest test of Nhibernate [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: The thing is, a lot of this sounds like speculation without actually doing perofmrnace measurements [11:45]  Penny Lane waves at BlueWall :-) [11:45] Snowdrop Short: and the new asset retains it id, you are in trouble too [11:45] paulie Flomar: FM: do tell! [11:45] Penny Lane: Woohoo Fly! [11:45] Fly Man: and i'm happy to inform you all that we have just succesfully integrated Postgresql as a new database engine that OpenSim can support :) [11:46]  paulie Flomar: wooots!!! [11:46]  paulie Flomar claps [11:46]  sim core is not sure what nhibernate actually does... [11:46]  Penny Lane: That's great [11:46]  Fly Man: Still some small details need to be fixed on the Asset server part [11:46]  Fly Man: but I am now logged in on my own Postgresql simulator [11:46]  paulie Flomar: woohoo! [11:46]  Fly Man: and I can see all the things I need to see :) [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:46] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: congrats [11:46] BlueWall Slade: Great News! [11:47] Charles Krinke: Ftw, Fly-Man [11:47] Snowdrop Short: that's great [11:47] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server  0.6.2.8300  (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False [11:47] BlueWall Slade: would be cool if we had a native PgSQL driver [11:47] Fly Man: So when the Asset server issue is resolved [11:47] Fly Man: I will post a tutorial how to set it up :) [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:48]  Richardus Raymaker: whats so good at postges ? [11:48]  Kitto Flora wonders if this is an exclusive database meeting. [11:48]  paulie Flomar: :) [11:48] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: lol Kitto [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:48] sim core: :-) [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably the biggest issue at hand for osgrid right now [11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: hdd full is end of the world.. :O [11:49]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002 always been bad at dbases .. now it's come back to haunt me again.. :| [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: likely before the end of this yar we will have well over 100gb of assets [11:49]  sim core: ( I mostly needed to know how not to crash with the load balancing module, other than that, GREAT JOB, the developers :-) [11:49]  Charles Krinke: Imaze: Do a character rebake Advanced->Character->Rebake or Alt-Ctrl-R [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay, perhaps we should talk about more OpenSim related stuff now [11:49]  Kitto Flora sees it going the same wasy as TinyHell. [11:49]  Charles Krinke: Nebadon: I estimate more like 500GBytes [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: does anybody have any OpernSim related issues? [11:50] Kitto Flora: I do [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: please Kitto, go ahead [11:50] Charles Krinke: Right. How is stability. How can we help the developers this week? [11:50] Snowdrop Short: I'd like to learn a bit about the groups [11:50] Kitto Flora: OK - First... [11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: the 64bit bug that you cannot set items for sale. / get lost afetr restart upgrade [11:51] Kitto Flora: I have made a patch that makes Avs fly at least 2M above ground height [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: you can set it for sale but it gets lost. not sure if its fixed [11:51] Kitto Flora: No more dragging toes on the ground [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: cool Kitto [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: is that on mantis? [11:51] Marlon Wulluf: *puts hand up for opensim question* [11:51] Kitto Flora: You fly much like on SL [11:51]  Penny Lane: Saves on toenail polish [11:51] Kitto Flora: Its not on mantis - yet [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ok let us know when it is [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: and make sure to tag the ticket as patch included [11:51] Kitto Flora: It was patched and working agains Trunk, about 3 days ago [11:52] sim core has a new message telling him there is a new field called 'avatar shape' that is not set, maybe that would help with the dragging toes issue? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ok best to not wait to long kitto [11:52] Kitto Flora: (You will have to explain to me about Mantis - I know nothing of this (after the meeting pse)) [11:52] Kitto Flora: Next: [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: as patches go stale fast around these parts [11:52] Kitto Flora: I applied the patch to Trunk as of 2 hours ago [11:53] Kitto Flora: But now Fly is not working at all! [11:53] Charles Krinke: opensimulator.org/mantis, Kitto. Make an account. Bugs and patches go there [11:53] Kitto Flora: A lot of ODE physics has been changed [11:53] Kitto Flora: There seems to be a problem in fly [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: Teravus knows most about ODE physics, but he might not be around for a while [11:53] Kitto Flora: If no one is around to talk to me, things wont go fast [11:53] Charles Krinke: We need to Mantis any ODE bugs [11:54] Charles Krinke: Mantis is the method of communication for this. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya you can get dialogues going on mantis [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: in the comments [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its permanent record too [11:54] Kitto Flora: 3) I have a script for a random moving non-hys object. Lots of llSetPos. In many sims it simply stops after 100 - 200 SetPos ops. The script is still running, but has exited FOR/NEXT loops. [11:55]  Fly Man: Kitto, does that script use llTimer ? [11:55]  Kitto Flora: Anyone seen scripts simply .. .stop? [11:55]  Charles Krinke: This meeting is mostly high-level strategy for the week. The actual work is done on Mantis, #opensim IRC and opensim-dev mailing list [11:55]  Kitto Flora: No llTimer [11:55]  sim core: Scripts can overload your queue [11:55]  Kitto Flora: I have no method to use IRC [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: incrase threads Kitto [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: on xengine [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: that can help [11:56]  sim core: Check console messages, mostly :-) [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: it could just be locking due to lack of threads [11:56] Kitto Flora: OK Nebadon, will try [11:56] Charles Krinke: I hear almost no script issues this week and there was an announcement that someone had made a physical motorcycle a wek ago. [11:56] Snowdrop Short rases hand and says in relation to the asset thing? [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: kitti tehre's some browser irc. only forgot wich one [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: oops.. kitto [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: sure Snowdrop [11:56] Charles Krinke: mibbit.com [11:56] Snowdrop Short: I'm working on an open source version of secondinventory [11:56] Homer Horwitz: Kitto: If it's the first patch you contribute, you should read http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Contributions_Policy too... [11:57]  Penny Lane: Woohoo Snowdrop! [11:57] BlueWall Slade: script crossing on non-phys tests no-go for me today [11:57] Kevin Paisley: yay snowdrop [11:57] Snowdrop Short: and was planning to public this week [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: whoo, nice snowdrop [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: awesome [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: thats good news [11:57] Snowdrop Short: bbut that would create even more assets I fear [11:57] Jeff 1564: this is nice snow drop [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:57] Snowdrop Short: so should I wait? [11:57] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: don't fear.. be certain ^^ [11:57] Charles Krinke: We'll deal with it somehow, SnowDrop [11:57] Kitto Flora: The problem I have is that all standard ICR servers publish IPs. And that I'll not do. [11:57] Jeff 1564: sweet :) [11:57]  BlueWall Slade: hehe a circular delimna [11:57]  Charles Krinke: No, go ahead, Snowdrop. [11:57]  Kevin Paisley: do items left in trash folder take up space on the asset server? I was curious about that earlier :) [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yea it would be nice to think we have control over asset usage [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but we dont [11:57] sim core: Firewall, kitto? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: one way or the other its being consumed faster and faster [11:58] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: lol Nebadon [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: kevin: yes. In fact, even when you delete them they'll still take up space [11:58] Kevin Paisley: ok [11:58]  Charles Krinke: I suspect trahs items are never deleted form the MySQL databasae [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: where can we read more about your project snowdrop ? or when its finished ? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of trash in the asset table [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: we know for sure atleast 1/5th is pure trash [11:58] Charles Krinke: So, all the trash that is emptied still bloates the MySQL databasea [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: that will be erased [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: as with all assets, there is no way to tell for certain that they are not still being used [11:58] sim core never understood why the old data doesn't get purely deleted [11:58] Kitto Flora: Second prroblem is that the kgrid servers are hosted by an ISP that blocks all irc traffic - and bans it in TOS :( [11:58]  Charles Krinke: access_time?? [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: at least not on an open grid like this one [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: well remember [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: this software is incomplete [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: not all functiosn work as they should [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: for a year we never timestamped a single asset [11:59]  Snowdrop Short: I have to go no [11:59]  Snowdrop Short: classes [11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: by snow [11:59]  Snowdrop Short: bye [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: access_time is imperfect since someone may have an asset which simply hasn't been taken out of its box for a long time [11:59]  Charles Krinke: thanks, SnowDrop [11:59]  Penny Lane: LOL, an ISP that bans IRC? And they dare to call themselves an ISP? [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: they might still be using it every day - except that it's still in their cache.... [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i think most ISPs are leary of IRC servers [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not so much clients [12:00] Kitto Flora: Penny: Yes .. ISP is 'OVH.com' [12:00] sim core: Might need a beeter one :-) [12:00]  Kitto Flora: Apparently they ban/block any use of IRC thru their servers [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: IRC and bit torrent [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: but webbased not.. [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: are about the same for piracy [12:00]  Charles Krinke: thanks, Justin. Although we still need a strategy to prune old assets before the disk gets full [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: im not suprised [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: efnet used to be the piratebay before bit torrent [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: +1 I shall be following your efforts with keen interest [12:01]  Penny Lane: Maybe instead of pruning, offlining to slow cheap USB storage? [12:01]  Charles Krinke: I'll keep you in the loop before we do anything [12:01]  sim core: :-) [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: then look for -sata. [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: hard drive space is cheap [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: Esata [12:02] sim core: I'm mostly curious about hypergrid inventory, as I use a grid right now where I am from [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i pay 20$ a month for 1.5tb of web storage [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: I agree with you about old terrain stuff. SOmeone should look in to that. Unfortunately I lack time atm [12:02] Charles Krinke: Doesnt work that way with a leased server in a server farm. Little or no physical access. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its getting opensim to work better is the issue [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: not really aquring space [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: osgrid is sitting on tb of free space [12:03] sim core: Then better seet coding might be necessary, I think [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but our main mysql server is running low [12:03] sim core: *Asset [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: really hardware or hd is not our problem [12:03] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: can't you just mount some network-drvie to it in the meantime ? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its getting opensim to be distrubuted [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: which currently its not [12:03] sim core: Like auto deletion of corrupted data, memory freeing at the console, etc :-) [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: have you thought about going the HyperGrid route? [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: who justin? [12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: the database is running to the edge.. [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: you guys, OSGrid - the boys :) [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: no [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: havent touched it [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: dont have time honestly [12:04] Penny Lane: Well we know that no centralized DB's scale, so yeah, we have to distribute [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i have only ever HG teleported once [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: and not on osgrid [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: The Hypergrid does tend to store more data on the different HG servers, not so much all in one place [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not sure [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have time to explore that for a long time [12:05] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: but that is a liability too [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: long after osgrid would die [12:05] Penny Lane: Collapse? [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: implode? [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: we need to fix the asset server [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: well if i were to explore HG [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: it would take me longer to figure it all out than we have [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: is my point [12:06] paulie Flomar: HG is great. Ive been playing with it. [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: its on my list, not find time for it [12:06]  sim core: Hyper grid is great [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have alot of time to solve this problem [12:06] paulie Flomar: It can lead to inventory confusion, though. :) [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: It's one way of doing distribution that exists today, but there are various issues that need to be fixed first [12:06]  sim core: Just need the inventory to flow a bit better, the rest is fun :-) [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt justin [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: osgrid will fully embrace HG [12:06]  Fly Man raises hand once again: [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: after this problem is resolved [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: not before [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: fair enough [12:07] Fly Man: "Nhibernate/Postgres has just come out of Alpha stage" [12:07] Charles Krinke: We need some wiki page entries to describe how to use HG distributed assets as we are a bit naive, most all of us. [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: and relaly [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: even with HG [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: assets will eventually become a problem [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: so even with HG [12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: if we keep blob them yes [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: we need better asset storage [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: Charles: have you looked at the opensimulator.org main Hypergrid page? [12:08] sim core: Redoing the way asset is stored codewise, maybe :-) [12:08]  Jeff 1564: or a way to clean it easier [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i started replicating that justin [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: on osgrid [12:08]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: you think anyhow blobs will keep exponentially exploding beyond mysqls capabilities and action should be taken, right Nebadon ? [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but it needs work [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i just dont have the time to fully understand it [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i was just mirroring it [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: the wiki page? [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: http://osgrid.org/index.php?&page=smodul&id=31&btn=7&subbtn=31 [12:08]  BlueWall Slade: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/AssetServerProposal [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: well i wanted osgrid to talk about hypergrid [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: so i strated recreating some of the wiki page [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: to osgrid [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: to help spread the word about it [12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: as I did with oar backup [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: I see. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: its sorta burried [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: only because i didnt feel it was complete [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: to plaster on front page yet [12:09] BlueWall Slade: I think Hg would be great for sandboxes, etc. It there was a reliable way to get the objects you create back to the other gridss [12:09] Tommi Laukkanen: Willy: even if you store just asset rows they will also blow outside database boundaries sooner rather than later [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:10] BlueWall Slade: that might help tame the main asset requirements a bit [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: thats the plan Tommil [12:10] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: ok Tommil [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: blobs outside mysql [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: everything else inside [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: in the simplest terms [12:10] BlueWall Slade: you might hit an fd wall? [12:10] Tommi Laukkanen: Just please dont make it default behaviour for ugaim :) [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: no [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its a custom system [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: its not a folder on hd [12:11]  sim core will have to read on blobs, sounds sci-fi :-) [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: its a sub system [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: file based storage [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: it will be distributed [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, doing it in a modular fashion will be very cool [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: no limits [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: then people are free to also experiment with other solutions if they want [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:11]  sim core: Isn't that distributed clusters? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: this is just for now [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: not saying osgrid will always work this way [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: 6 months from now we might find ourselves redoing it again [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: just like lindens [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yes indeed :) [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: there are no permanent solutions [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: in this game [12:12]  Penny Lane: I think we may grow a lot faster than Lindens [12:12]  sim core takes it a s 3D web page, mostly :-) [12:12] sim core: MOre than a fgame :-J [12:12] sim core: *Game [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean this game called opensource [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: no opensimn [12:13] sim core: Hehe [12:13] WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: if this is a game... when is it over ? :) [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: things always change in opensource [12:13]  Richardus Raymaker: when the datbase is full. :O [12:13]  Homer Horwitz: It's over when you die, of course ;) [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: regardless of the platform or project [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: true, though in the long term standards should emerge and things will setlle down. Or atleast, I fervently hope so [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: sure, but even with standards [12:13] sim core wonders if anyone saw results from the reproductive module for trees? [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: the modules [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: will alow it to grow without end [12:14] Penny Lane: End-level boss is called Software Crisis ;-) [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: it will never really end [12:14]  WiLLuMPJuH.Huisman @84.87.5.13:8002: lol Penny :) [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: im intressted in that tree module. but i hear its doing nothing.. [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya i was wondering about it too [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: if its documented [12:14] sim core: I saw no result for trees yet :-) [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker: and offcorse not muhc info sofar i know [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: there are console commands [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: to trigger it [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i think [12:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: Teravus added some doc and a bit of code - it's actually existed for a long long time already [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its not just enable it [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: and it goes [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker: and where is the doc ? [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: probably deep in the soruce [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: source [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:15]  Richardus Raymaker: aha... [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, in OpenSim.ini,example (this is the dev's idea of documentation) [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [12:15]  sim core: Hehe, trees and avatar capsule information would help me out [12:16]  sim core: Other than that, I am extremely pleased with opensimultors for now! [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats good [12:16] BlueWall Slade is Online [12:16] Tommi Laukkanen: I would like to ask if we could consider moving physics plugins to bin directory as they cannot be referenced by other nant projects because of prebuild limitations. This stops us from writing physics tests against physics plugins currently [12:16] Jeff 1564: guys what about a svn separated for each server? to much work? or is not possible? [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: things have gotten a bit more stable recently [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats good [12:16] sim core: *Opensimulators [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: but theres still much to do [12:16]  Kevin Paisley cheers wildly as if I have had 20 beers and someone just flashed various bits. [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: expect more breakage and ups and downs no doubt [12:17] Fly Man: Nebadon, Ckrinke: Might I add something to that ? [12:17] Fly Man: You are both doing a great job keeping OSgrid up and running as long as possible [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: what am i adding too sorry