Chat log from the meeting on 2008-08-19

[10:56] Kurt Stringer is Online [10:56] You: hello [10:57] Hardy Kungler: i don't know...... i am waiting on all to show up.. my connection is a bit slow ... [10:57] Hardy Kungler: hi! [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: hi nebadon, kurt [10:57] Kurt Stringer: Hello all! [10:57] Hardy Kungler: hello to the new ones... that came in ;-) [10:57] Melanie Milland is Online [10:58]  Kurt Stringer: Hey Mel [10:58]  Thomas Mahoney: greets [10:58]  Melanie Milland: hi [10:58]  Kurt Stringer: Hey Mel [10:58]  Hardy Kungler: hi mel. [10:59]  You: inventory seems nice and accessible here today [10:59]  You: last week wasnt so nice rezzing couches [10:59]  You: hehe [10:59]  You: was quite a pain in the ass last time [10:59]  Melanie Milland: well, just wait till after the next update [10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I take it session_lookup is still off? [11:00]  You: yep [11:00]  You: i hadnt seen any changes yet [11:00]  You: unless i missed something [11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I would recommend keeping it off for the next week since there have been other inventory problems which may have masked an improvement [11:01]  Melanie Milland: justin [11:01]  Chris D is Online [11:01]  Melanie Milland: the secure inventory is fundamentally broken [11:01] Melanie Milland: i would recommend to not enable that option ever [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: why do you say that? [11:01] You: yea until i see major changes in the code [11:01] You: i probably wont re-enable it [11:01]  Kurt Stringer is Offline [11:02] You: though to be honesty [11:02] Melanie Milland: because it is not equipped to handle a grid server restart at all [11:02] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:02] You: never was a problem for me [11:02]  You: i can only go one problems others experienced [11:02] You: for me secure inventory was flawless [11:02] Melanie Milland: if you restart the grid server, any region that was up at that tinme needs to restart to regin access to inventory [11:02] Aramis Soren is Online [11:02] You: ah [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: you mean the actual grid grid server? [11:02] Melanie Milland: yes [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: not the user server? [11:02] You: well considering i have to restart regions anywhere from 5-10 times day [11:02] You: probably why i never noticed it [11:03]  Dahlia Trimble: Hi :) [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I don't believe there's ever an interaction with the grid service with that funcionality [11:03]  You: i always restart a region before i do any work in one [11:03]  Melanie Milland: basically, a UGAI restart will kill the grid [11:03]  You: that makes sense [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, certainly a user server restart will cause problems [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: though in princpile the others should be fine [11:03]  You: well if we cant restart servers [11:03]  You: then its never geting enabled [11:03]  You: lol [11:03]  Bill Humphries: Howdy. [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is a good point - I hadn't though of that [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi bill [11:03]  You: hey bill [11:03]  Melanie Milland: the session ID is queried from the grid server [11:04]  Melanie Milland: and it is held in memory there [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: it's queried from the user grid server [11:04] Melanie Milland: so, it only has it fro regions that started after it did [11:04] You: thats no good [11:04] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:04] You: i wouldd have to agree that is total failure [11:04] Alyvaral Aeghin is Online [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, in principle one could reconstuc tthe session list [11:04] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [11:05] Melanie Milland: i believe the entire approach is wrong [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly persist it over restarts... though things start getting messy [11:05] Homer Horwitz: Hi everyone [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: well, you may want to put that on the opensim-dev list [11:05] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :) [11:05]  Teravus Ousley is Online [11:05]  You: yea still sounds potentially like a point of failure [11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: so that lulurun can respond [11:05]  Melanie Milland: the current approach affords no security at all [11:06]  You: yea i would, this is the 1st i have heard this before [11:06]  BlueWall Slade is Online [11:06]  Melanie Milland: all you have to do is bring up a isgrid region [11:06]  Chris D is Offline [11:06]  Melanie Milland: and it's all open to you [11:06]  You: the inability to restart the UGAIM [11:06]  Melanie Milland: osgrid* [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: well no, you have to know the session id [11:06]  Melanie Milland: no [11:06]  Melanie Milland: yes [11:06]  Melanie Milland: for one agent, true [11:06]  Hardy Kungler: sorry.... whaz should be the goal of secure inventory? [11:06]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:07]  Melanie Milland: but the real issue isn't even inventiry. it;s assets. [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hardy: secure inventory is an attempt to restrict arbitrary inventory requests [11:07] Melanie Milland: inventory is the directiry listing [11:07] Melanie Milland: assets are the file contents [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: well, securing inventory is still useful [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: to stop arbitrary adding/removing items [11:07] sacha Magne waves [11:07] Melanie Milland: i agree [11:07] Hiro Protagonist: Hi every bodeh [11:07] Melanie Milland: but it needs to be done in a nonbroken way [11:08] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: sure. Well, we asked lulurun to come up with a written design we can debate [11:08] sacha Magne waves [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: mikem is working closely with him I believe [11:08] Melanie Milland: that will get results then eventually [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: Is Charles about today? [11:08] Melanie Milland: but it still means it needs to remain off for now [11:08] You: yea biggest problem is the time differnce with them [11:08] You: its hard to work with them unless your awake at 3am [11:08] Kurt Stringer is Online [11:08] Charles Krinkeb is Online [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Hey Charles [11:09] Tiffany Sicling is Online [11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Morning [11:09] Chris D is Online [11:09] You: morning [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Teravus, Hiro, Bluewall, Digi, Monk, everyone else [11:09] Monk Zymurgy: hi everyone [11:09] Hardy Kungler: evening ;-) [11:09]  Melanie Milland: who isn't? [11:09]  BlueWall Slade: Hello [11:09]  Kurt Stringer: /re-hello [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [11:09]  You: heh welll my eyes are open at 3am [11:10]  Melanie Milland: we're coders. we're supposed to be up at 3 am [11:10]  You: not quite sure im actually awake though [11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: It's a pretty rare day I'm up at 3:00AM [11:10]  Charles Krinkeb: Folks look swallowed up by these big pillows. [11:10]  You: right click the chair [11:10]  You: or wait a minute [11:10]  You: i noticed that also [11:10]  Homer Horwitz: Erm, anyone getting doubled chat lines? [11:10]  Bill Humphries: nope [11:10]  You: no [11:10]  You: sculpties dont always load [11:10]  Aramis Soren: not here [11:10]  Hardy Kungler: no [11:10]  Warin Cascabel: Not I. [11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: npoe [11:10]  Homer Horwitz: Only me... [11:11] Homer Horwitz sighs [11:11] Monk Zymurgy: nor me [11:11]  Charles Krinkeb: not I, homer. [11:11] You: anyone else notice their sculpties dont load unless you click them? [11:11] You: this started about 2 weeks or so ago [11:11] You: atleast started getting worse [11:11] Warin Cascabel: I haven't had that issue, Nebadon. [11:11] Tiffany Sicling: loaded fine for me [11:11]  Hiro Protagonist: most of the sculpts I see are rezzed [11:11] Hiro Protagonist: only two arent [11:11] You: well to be honest my only frame of reference is Zaisu plaza [11:11] You: so thats probably why [11:11] You: 11000 prims [11:11] Tiffany Sicling: I think that's a viewer thing [11:11] You: might be why [11:11] Homer Horwitz: Looks fine here, I guess. [11:11] Charles Krinkeb: The one with Bill and Chris has now turned from a big pillow into a couch. [11:11] You: if you walk around a bit [11:11] You: and wait 10-15 minutes [11:12] You: they will eventually look proper [11:12] Digi Fly: i saw them not load in one region. [11:12] You: but that seems to long to me [11:12]  Charles Krinkeb: So, how do we make best use of our hour? [11:13] Hiro Protagonist: LOL Grab a quick nap? [11:13] Chris D is Offline [11:13] You: :p [11:13] Charles Krinkeb: haha [11:13] You: we could have a "Win a Date with a OSGrid Administrator Contest" [11:13] Chris D is Online [11:13] You: lol [11:13] Hiro Protagonist: heh, I'm too married for that [11:13] Warin Cascabel: Test [11:13] Hardy Kungler: ;-) [11:13]  You: im expericing some major chat lag right now though [11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: stuck typing anim here [11:14]  Tess Linden is Online [11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: hi sacha [11:14]  Charles Krinkeb: I'll start. "Do we want to focus on getting a 0.6 release out?" [11:14]  sacha Magne: hi [11:14]  Homer Horwitz: re-hi [11:14]  Hiro Protagonist: Hi Tess, Whump :) [11:14] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [11:14] You: hmm [11:14] sacha Magne: hi all [11:14] You: did we loose justin [11:14] Tess Linden: hi :) [11:14]  sacha Magne: finnaly [11:14]  You: ah there he is [11:14]  Hiro Protagonist: he just relogged now [11:14]  Bill Humphries: /waves [11:14]  Digi Fly: sim fps drops [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: OUCH [11:14]  Tiffany Sicling: laggy [11:14]  You: yea [11:14]  You: seems really laggy right now [11:15]  Digi Fly: how is the server load now ? [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: I thought that was a general drop but it must just have been me [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, it looks within bounds [11:15]  sacha Magne: can't talk [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: there was a huge frametime jump though - big physics component [11:15]  Charles Krinkeb: I think there are four things on the agenda. 1) Anything the Lindens wish to bring up about interop. 2) The next release. 3) What can testers do to help developers and 4) What can developers do to help testers. [11:15] Tiffany Sicling: I see a bunch of gray blob prims everywhere [11:15]  sacha Magne: no Flist [11:15]  Digi Fly: many grey avi's here some are ok [11:16]  You: rebake [11:16]  Hiro Protagonist: I'm kinda holding my breath to see if things stabilize [11:16]  You: seems we are still at the level where a rebake is required after you log in [11:16]  Tiffany Sicling: almost everything is gray to me [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: no one has done any work on appearance yet [11:16]  Tiffany Sicling: floor, chairs, etc. [11:16]  Digi Fly: did everybody rebake. [11:16]  Charles Krinkeb: nice popeye, Warin. [11:16]  You: yea asset server is getting hammered [11:16]  Tiffany Sicling: as if the sculpty textures haven't applied to them [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: since sdague - hopefully it will be fixed up when he is back from hols [11:16] Warin Cascabel: Thanks, Charles [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: we also appear to be leaking memory again [11:17] Bill Humphries: yes, rebaked and all is well [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody has created a memory leak [11:17] You: yea i think that only occurs under large load justin [11:17] You: why its something thats hard to see [11:17] Charles Krinkeb: I cannot tell a lie. I didnt do it. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah possibly - certain I followed the evolution of memory usage for a day on wp a couple of days ago, and it concinutally crept up [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:17] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: and only a fraction was in the asset cache - so we're leaking [11:17] You: yea [11:17] You: last few days [11:17] Hardy Kungler: what about the agenda? [11:17] You: i woke up to a crashed Zaius Plaza [11:18] You: totally sitting at dos prompt [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I havent committed hardly anything so it's not my fault [11:18] BlueWall Slade: hmm [11:18] Charles Krinkeb: Lets ask our Linden friends if there are things they wish to discuss about interop first. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia - it's all your fault :) [11:18]  BlueWall Slade: go whump [11:18]  Dahlia Trimble: :( [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm tprobably going to start inserting code to detect what is happening [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: then shoot whoever introduced the leak (not really ) ;-) [11:18]  You: k great Justin [11:18]  You: you need updates here let me know [11:18]  Charles Krinkeb: Like grid ticks being 1meter or 256meters? [11:19]  BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:19]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:19]  Hardy Kungler: the agenda ;-) ? [11:19] Tiffany Sicling: are those couches or chairs ? they look like huge worms with partial heads sticking out of them [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [11:19] Bill Humphries: sorry, about I got wedged, and just got a my mouse back [11:19] You: yea [11:20] You: sculpties have issues loading sometimes [11:20] You: click the couches [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: the couches are fine [11:20] You: right click [11:20] You: im sure some people arent seeing them properly [11:20] You: when i logged in it took a goo 60 seconds befire i saw couch proper [11:20] Tiffany Sicling: blame it on the asset server eh [11:20]  Charles Krinkeb: Nebadon. All the worms have turned into couches now for me and I did not click anything. [11:20] You: but thats before everyone else was here [11:20] You: eventually it will load [11:20] You: yea [11:20] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:20] Teravus Ousley is Offline [11:21] Tiffany Sicling: even the trees look like huge gray thingies [11:21] You: you can expedite it sometimes with a left click to object [11:21] BlueWall Slade: i had to throttle the net bw in the viewer for things to load [11:21] You: yea [11:21] Bill Humphries: I can give a quick update, as mentioned above, there's a discussion on grid scale started on the gridnauts list. [11:21] You: i suspect comms for this region are near dead [11:21] You: seems like around 20 avatars now [11:21] Charles Krinkeb: Go ahead, Bill. [11:21] You: comms just die [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I can see this is not my day today [11:21] You: yea [11:22] You: region sas 23 agents [11:22] You: but there is not 23 people here [11:22] Bill Humphries: And that's related to the current integration blocker on being able to use OGP and regular login on an OpenSim instance. [11:22] Charles Krinkeb: The fact it works at all is a miracle. [11:22] Tiffany Sicling: distant terrain and objects look fine [11:22] Boscata Troglodite: hi all [11:22] You: i suspect many hung agents [11:22] You: probably the cause for memory leak [11:22] Dahlia Trimble whines... "Justin fix it" [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: I was forced out by another ack issue [11:22] Hardy Kungler: hi bos ;-) [11:22]  You: 26 agents now [11:22]  You: lol [11:22]  Bill Humphries: So let's continue the conversation there. [11:22]  Charles Krinkeb: Lets let the Lindens have the floor. [11:22]  You: there is not 26 people here [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, I suspect the ghosts and the leaking are connected [11:22]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline [11:22]  You: yep [11:23]  You: as do i [11:23]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:23]  Tiffany Sicling: they always seem to appear at 128,128,70 on my regions [11:23]  Bill Humphries: We're up to 30 OGP regions, and around 60 people who have announced they've completed an intergrid teleport. [11:23]  You: it cant be good when you shut a region down [11:23]  eaglefx Binder: good evening i'm not a ghost tho :P even my shirt could look like ;-)) [11:23]  You: and 25 avatars names fly by [11:23]  You: as non-existent agents [11:23] Bill Humphries: Our team is meeting later this week to figure out next steps for the beta program. [11:23] Teravus Ousley is Online [11:24] You: which seems to be the norm now [11:24] Tiffany Sicling: anything to do with impostors ? [11:24] You: impostors are viewer side [11:24] You: i think [11:24] You: thats not server side is it? [11:24] Tiffany Sicling: pretty dress Axaes [11:24] You: yes very nice [11:24] Bill Humphries: Teravus Ousley updated the OGP patch to bring it up r5916 in trunk. [11:24] Melanie Milland: justin, do you have a dump if the ack issue? [11:24] BlueWall Slade: Bill, is grid interop high on the next step list? [11:24] sacha Magne: want some skin/cloth/shape makers ? [11:25] Tiffany Sicling: I couldn't TP here, I had to login here [11:25] Bill Humphries: BlueWall, it's on the list of items we're considering. [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: sacha.. ? [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: yep - just filing a mantis now. It's doesn't look very informative unfortunately [11:25] sacha Magne: yes , [11:25] Charles Krinkeb: Can we consider commiting the grid interop patch or at least a portion of it? [11:25] Melanie Milland: it might speak to me [11:26]  Hiro Protagonist: 27 main agents [11:26] Melanie Milland: i see prim hari appearing [11:26] Teravus Ousley: not yet. currently it breaks grid mode in several ways. [11:26] Melanie Milland: hair [11:26] Teravus Ousley: @ charles. However.. I'll be working on that this weekend. [11:26] Hiro Protagonist: killer 'do Monk :D [11:26] BlueWall Slade: Teravus, does it apply cleanly to trunk now? [11:27] Chris D: Yes, I tried it earlier [11:27] Charles Krinkeb: merely a suggestion I think applying part of it will help to not break Zha's motivator. [11:27] Dahlia Trimble: I can see now I'm going to need some prim hair [11:27] Teravus Ousley: I have not tried it with current trunk, though I see no changes that would conflict with it since the revision I updated it to. [11:28] Melanie Milland: my next lttle subproject will be to fix things so the rebake isn't needed anymore [11:28] Aramis Soren is Offline [11:28] Bill Humphries: Well, again, since we would like to see OGP support in trunk, helping get grid mode sorted sounds like something we should do. [11:28] Tiffany Sicling: everyone that has hair, the hair looks ok [11:28]  Tiffany Sicling: but rest is gray [11:29] Charles Krinkeb: My vote would be to apply the patch to the extent it doesnt break existing functionality for our OpenSim grids and standalone arrays. [11:29] You: yea [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: +1 [11:29] You: it doesnt seem that we bake the avatar appearnce on login [11:29] You: well we do bake it i think [11:29] You: but its not being updated [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: actually [11:29] You: not in time [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: I thought the plan was for OGP to be a separate module that interfaces with core [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: okay, I assigned 2004 to you [11:29] Hardy Kungler: my connection is slow. so i don't wonder if things come up slowly. [11:29] Bill Humphries: I guess that segues into #2, what's in your next release. [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: I think we should apply it and mantis [11:29] Teravus Ousley: Yes, that is the plan Dahlia [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: if it breaks crucially, roll back and try again [11:30] Charles Krinkeb: Thats ok with me, too. I am just trying to get it past applying a patch that needs seperate maintenance for each svn checkin. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: We can apply parts of the patch that are not OGP specific without controversy [11:30] Hiro Protagonist: I think thats a great idea Charles [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: anything else will need proper notification, I think [11:30] Hiro Protagonist: we got started on it, I think we need to see it through [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: In fact, really that stuff should probably remain as a module - I think that was the common position las ttime this came up [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: if it is to be a module, this is essentially a non-issue [11:31] Chris D is Offline [11:31] Melanie Milland: ok. simstats [11:31] Teravus Ousley: A couple of things in the patch currently.. it essentially forces standalone mode. [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: wasnt Zha working on segmenting it? [11:31] Teravus Ousley: .. it has it's own login service. [11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Our releases tend to be snapshots of trunk. We are ready to tag svn and call it a release when enough developers feel comfortable. I am the "tagger and bagger". [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yes, that's what I heard [11:32] Teravus Ousley: .. it changes the regionhandle from the OpenSim unit of measure to the OGP unit of measure. [11:32] You: we might want to wait for sdague to reture [11:32] You: return [11:32] Melanie Milland: so why is their login service so incompatible with ours? [11:32] Bill Humphries: Teravus, I think at least a couple of Lindens can be available this weekend to help with that. [11:32] You: before we tag anything [11:32] You: anyone know sdagues return date? [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I kind of like the idea of 1 meter grid units [11:32] You: this weekend? [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: next week [11:32] You: k [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe this weekend, next week certainly though [11:32] Chris D is Online [11:32] You: ok great [11:32] Bill Humphries: Melanie, OGP specifies a new login protocol for the AD. [11:33]  Melanie Milland: but wh can't that coexist? [11:33] You: i think its key he is involved in the tagging process [11:33] Teravus Ousley: Melanie. I think it can.. but it requires intimate knowledge of OpenSimulator to get it to coexist. [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps they can coexist, but the current patch doesnt allow it [11:33]  Charles Krinkeb: Nebadon. The key to me is that Mw, Lbsa, Adam *and* SDague all say "tag and bag". [11:34] You: yep

(I CRASHED HERE MISSING 4 minutes)

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: or this damn acktobytes bug [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: which is chucking everyone off randomly today [11:38] Charles Krinkeb: Its just that we seem to have gone way beyond our current 0.5.8 and it is incompatible with our existing OpenSim grids. [11:39] You: yes, we do need to fix the release [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: perhaps the thing to do Charles is identify a stable point bfore the memory leak and tag that [11:39] You: even if not a full release revison increase [11:39] You: we should release an incremental update [11:39] Chris D: Any idea when the meory leak started? [11:39] You: to bring our release into compliance with current grid ops [11:39] sacha Magne: keep in mind the inventory issue [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: mm, we may have had inventory problems back then [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps we should schedule a functionality freeze and do a bug shakedown? [11:40] Tiffany Sicling: in 'show stats', the memory figure there seems to grow on it's own, would the memory leak have anything to do with that ? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: chris D: I suspect about 2 weeks ago [11:40] Charles Krinkeb: Ok. Segueing into the next subject, which actually supports getting to 0.6. "What do the developers need from the testers to make their lives easier?" [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: that numbe rreflects the problem [11:40] Aramis Soren is Online [11:40] Tiffany Sicling: ahhh [11:40] BlueWall Slade is Online [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: one thing that is very useful [11:40] Teravus Ousley: animal tranquilizers, so I can sleep and be more awake? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: is if people can take the time to test out different revisions to try and identify exactly which one caused the bug they are seeeing [11:41] sacha Magne: could we have a more detailed log for each revision ? [11:41] Warin Cascabel: Justin: that's if something was working correctly and then stopped working, right? [11:41] Charles Krinkeb: I'll amplify that by saying "Testers should strive to identify revisions where functionality broke and get confirming notes on Mantis for Windows and Linux!" [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: yep. Admittedly, not all bugs are like that [11:42] You: the only way i know to get most detailed log is Tortoise [11:42] Teravus Ousley: Yes, ++ revision search. [11:42] Boscata Troglodite: and why not to have 2 grids? [11:42] You: ts quite difficult in Linux to traverse the svn log [11:42] Chris D: It is odd because up until about 10 days ago I was sseing large increases in memory. I am not seeing this with r5926 [11:42] Boscata Troglodite: one to revisions and the other more stable for production? [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: svn log|less [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: seems quite easy? [11:42] You: never tried that [11:42] You: i find linux svn clunky [11:42] You: at best [11:42] You: hehe [11:42] Melanie Milland: i use that all the time [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, command line is the only way to go, baby [11:43] Melanie Milland: all dumbed down [11:43] You: i just find it hard to traverse and glean info easily [11:43] Tiffany Sicling: neb, what about changing over to tortoise ? [11:43] Teravus Ousley also uses tortoise to see the patch in context with the code. [11:43] Melanie Milland: i hate that tortoise stuff [11:43] Melanie Milland: grep, neb! [11:43]  You: yes [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:43] You: yea it can be done [11:43] Hiro Protagonist: lol ok [11:43]  Chris D uses git and rebases to svn regulary :) [11:43]  You: dont get me wrong [11:43]  You: i just like saving my time [11:43]  You: hehe [11:43]  You: i cant stand command line [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: I'm gonna tp back to hoffman and see if my inventory croaks [11:43]  You: i admit im GUI guy [11:43]  Boscata Troglodite: I study to begin production here, we need some stability [11:44]  Melanie Milland: tiff, some of us will not go over to the dark side [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: LOLS [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist waves [11:44]  Chris D I still have 6 My Inventory folders :( [11:44] Dahlia Trimble <3 GUI and IDE [11:44] Tiffany Sicling: hehe Melanie [11:44] Tiffany Sicling: part of my inv works and part does not [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: Chris D: I hear that Nebadon is the fix it guy for that [11:45] Charles Krinkeb: Boscata. Mantis reports are certainly not limited to any particular grid. They are encourage from all standalones and grids. [11:45] Charles Krinkeb: If we seem to spend too much time concentrating on OSGrid, I apologise. [11:45] Tiffany Sicling: how easy would it be to port services, like asset server, over to native code of the platform it runs on ? like one for windoze and another for linux [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: all those services are pretty simple, so probably not that hard [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: inventory worked great post-teleport at hoffman [11:46] Teravus Ousley: probably not that difficult [11:46] You: yea thats another thing we have not talked about [11:46] Boscata Troglodite: yes, is a possibility [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: just tp'd back [11:46] You: but this week alone i fixed 4 peoples invntory [11:46] You: for dupe folders [11:46] Teravus Ousley: they're mostly http servers.. [11:46] LOLcubeFixx0r: WhoooHoo!! [11:46] BlueWall Slade: i thin kwe wiill see a lot of that anyway [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: worx here too [11:46] You: Monkzy had 8 cipies [11:46] LOLcubeFixx0r: WhoooHoo!! [11:46] You: copies [11:46] Tiffany Sicling: I think it would make the services much faster in native [11:47] Tiffany Sicling: especially inv/asset server [11:47] Homer Horwitz: Hm, are you sure? Compared to network, doing it natively or JITcompiled might not make that much difference [11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Unfortunately, the developers will most likely say that duplicate inventory is a grid maintenance issue, but maybe Hiro's and others efforts to use a script to identify and eventually fix duplicate folders will help all the grids. [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: so is this dupe phenomenon fairly new? [11:48] You: well yes and no [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I know we had it a while back, but I thought it largely went away [11:48] Melanie Milland: duplicate folder meaning duplicate special folders, right? [11:48] You: while back it was quite prevalent [11:48] You: seems to have returend recently [11:48] You: no [11:48]  Melanie Milland: since duplication of a normal fodler creates - well - just a folder.. [11:48] You: all folders [11:48] You: the entire set [11:48] Charles Krinkeb: It occurred, I believe, with the session_lookup checkins 2 weeks ago. [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: actually I suspect it to be the result of some intermittent DNS issues that have since been addressed [11:48] You: is duplicated [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: dupe root folders [11:48] Melanie Milland: aww [11:48] You: MonkZy had 8 copies [11:48] Melanie Milland: root one [11:48] You: yes [11:49] You: 8 root fdolders too [11:49] Tiffany Sicling: I dunno, but if the asset server saturates on say, less than 50 avs, what is it gonna do with 100 or more ? [11:49] Melanie Milland: so that means duplicate UUID in the DB? [11:49] You: of all the folders [11:49] Chris D: I/me has 6 copies [11:49] Homer Horwitz: Dahlia: Dupe roots are checked in Mysql, but not logged. Maybe adding this? [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: well,it might be related from a change of Francis to pick up folders and items differently [11:49] You: what i do to fix it is look for a custom folder the person has made [11:49] BlueWall Slade: i haven't see this at al, so what is causing it? [11:49] You: and trace it back to the propoer root [11:49] You: then purge everything else [11:49] You: that fixes them [11:49] Homer Horwitz: Or auto-repair? Join all the folders into one? [11:49] Homer Horwitz: (root-folders) [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: I'm going to optimistically guess that this is all historical stuff [11:49] You: id rather not do that [11:50] You: no [11:50]  You: i dont think it is [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: and that you'll only need to do it once for each of these people.... or have you arleady done it many times? [11:50] Teravus Ousley: That's what Lost & Found is for.. right? :D [11:50] You: these people are all very active [11:50] Charles Krinkeb: It may be that the traffic on OSGrid is sufficiently heavy to expose this logic problem which smaller grids dont see *yet*. [11:50] BlueWall Slade: is it SI or something like that? [11:50] You: and just this week [11:50] You: it happened [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: happened to me recently [11:50] You: so far its been once for most [11:50] Chris D: If the problem was caused by a DNS issue, opesim should really be able to handle that and not produce dup inventory [11:50] You: except monkzy [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: well, I mean code changes have revealed these folders where they were previously ignored [11:50] You: ahh [11:50] You: it happened to him twice [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: well I noticed it recently when my inventory failed [11:50] You: that might be so justin [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: mm okay, teice is not good [11:50] Melanie Milland: i believethe issue cold have been avoided by not haing a root folder [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: twice [11:51] You: the question is how do we determine which set is the correct one" [11:51]  Melanie Milland: it's not really needed [11:51]  You: if thats the case [11:51]  You: its not like its easy to tell that [11:51]  You: we dont date stamp anything [11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: ya I cant tell if I lost anything [11:51]  Melanie Milland: we should get rid of the root folder [11:51]  You: i mean when a human is not involved btw [11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: perhaps some kind of recursive merge? [11:52]  Hardy Kungler: hello again ;-) [11:52]  Melanie Milland: there is no need for the root folder to be an actual entity [11:52]  Charles Krinkeb: I think this duplicate has happened before also, if you recall. A few months ago. [11:52]  You: yes [11:52]  Hiro Protagonist: that's the sort of thing I'm working on Dhalia [11:52]  You: it did [11:52]  Homer Horwitz: Parent == NULL_KEY means root-folder, for example [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: true, but that will make no difference to dupes [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: Hiro, kewl :) [11:52]  Melanie Milland: yes [11:52]  You: but like justincc said someone implemented a method to ignore them [11:52]  You: so maybe that is what broken here [11:52]  Melanie Milland: my thought exactly [11:52]  Melanie Milland: justin, it will [11:52]  You: but still i dont like the idea of dup folders [11:52]  You: being ignored [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I know that previously we were making lot sof requests depending on the rot folder [11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: Dupes are anyway not good. it will slow down things [11:53]  You: that makes for uber bloat [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: but things have been changed a little - but to be fair I haven't studied the code [11:53]  Melanie Milland: the root folder would exist in memory [11:53]  Melanie Milland: but not in db [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: it really makes litlte difference [11:53]  Melanie Milland: i'm of half a mind to rewrite inv, from scratch [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: rightm but code changes could still insert duplicated folders [11:53] Homer Horwitz: Hm, right. Same problem, one level below. [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: that's just it though [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: these arent duped folders [11:54] Homer Horwitz: Two, say, notecard folders [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: thy're new sets of folders, and that chokes teh client [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: if you modularize inventory first, we can experiment with a new system before switching over [11:54] Melanie Milland: yes. there should be global UUIDS defined for those [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly, and reduce user chaos [11:54] Melanie Milland: or go by type only [11:54] Melanie Milland: better yet [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: it really would simplify things if you could just use any folder that belongs to ya [11:54]  Melanie Milland: no [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: hmm. Good thing.. R5928.. sim stats shouldn't have acks.. [11:55] Melanie Milland: global uuids [11:55] BlueWall Slade: when this happens - is it using different viewers, SI? What causes it? [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: I havent used SI [11:55]  You: I do [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: Bluewall: there are dupes in the db.... [11:55] You: and have not had it happen [11:55] You: i dont think its SI [11:55]  You: and if it is [11:55]  You: ive been really really lucky [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I suggest we leave this for a week and see if the problem has dropped off [11:55] BlueWall Slade: I have used only SL viewers and mo SI [11:55]  Chris D never used SI [11:56]  Melanie Milland: i have made some changes [11:56] Charles Krinkeb: The majority of us doing testing are going out of our way to use the latest secondlife.com official viewer, currently 1.20 [11:56] Melanie Milland: today [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: and then loo at it again next week, unless someone does want to devote dev time up front [11:56] BlueWall Slade: an my inventory is clean [11:56] You: yea it wasnt all that bad a problem [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: I think that while DNS was fubarred, the region server could ntcommunicate with the inv server [11:56] Melanie Milland: that may change the way inventory works [11:56] You: i was mostly wondering if anyone knew why [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: it made a new set of folders some how as a result [11:56] You: fixing 4 peoples inventory isnt all that harsh [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: that is my theory anyway [11:56] Melanie Milland: problem: log into region A, get inventory [11:56] Melanie Milland: cross to region B, get inventoiry again [11:56] Melanie Milland: create/modify it [11:56]  Melanie Milland: cross back to A [11:56]  Teravus Ousley is using 1.19.1(4) on his computer still currently.. [11:57] Melanie Milland: a still has the prior cached version [11:57] Charles Krinkeb: Last Question: "What are the things the testers might request of the developers in the next week?" [11:57] Melanie Milland: so viewer and region were out of sync [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: Melanie: is this caused by changing things to use the cached user profile? [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: we should always be doing the update [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly that was the old behaviour [11:57] You: would it be wise [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: 1.20.14 for me [11:57]  You: when a avatar leaves a region to wipe their cache? [11:57] Tiffany Sicling: skull attachment point [11:57] Melanie Milland: no. it was caused by faliing to check that the region corssed into is on the same simulator instance [11:57] sacha Magne: some explanation about their commits [11:57] Teravus Ousley: Skull attachment point has been resolved :D [11:57] You: nice [11:58] You: thats in SVN ter? [11:58] BlueWall Slade: oh, the binary builds..... [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I don;'t think we wer edoing any checking before [11:58] Tiffany Sicling: oh yea ? ok [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: we were just replacing each time [11:58] You: or [11:58]  You: is it possible [11:58] Teravus Ousley: yes. in SVN. [11:58] You: for the region your leaving [11:58] Melanie Milland: and attachments persists when current UGAI are used [11:58] You: to inject yoru cache [11:58] BlueWall Slade: we need to place a file in the bin directory [11:58] You: into the new region your entering [11:58] You: ? [11:58] You: anything related to your avatar [11:58] You: gets injected to the region yrou entering? [11:58] BlueWall Slade: that just contains the svn revision [11:58] BlueWall Slade: or leave teh .svn directory there [11:59] You: like your cache is a breifcase you cary with you [11:59] sacha Magne: charles could we have a more detailed logs about the commit ? [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: well, when one entered a region it would always refetch the entire inventory from the inventory server to cache it [11:59]  BlueWall Slade: so we can see what rev a regions is [11:59]  Melanie Milland: problem is that there isn't much flexibility in the region-region comms (yet) [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: but it sounds like something has changed somewhere..... [11:59] sacha Magne: it's hard to see when an issue is comming [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: admittedly the refetch for regions on the same server was pointless [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: and an optimization point [11:59] You: well im just wondering [12:00] Melanie Milland: justin. that refetch would ADD to the cache [12:00] You: why cant we ask the server you just left [12:00] Melanie Milland: not replace it [12:00]  You: instead of pestering the asset server [12:00] UUID Speaker: danx2 danx0r, your key is 8dccc46b-a033-4b6f-9459-57fc72d7d51c [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: no, it was a replace [12:00] You: inventory server [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmmm [12:00] Charles Krinkeb: Good point, Sacha, and I will amplify: "The testing will go more smoothly if checkins are a bit less cryptic and more descriptive in the description field.!" [12:00] Melanie Milland: justin, not in the code i read today [12:00] Melanie Milland: i guess that got broken a ways back [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: could be. [12:00] Charles Krinkeb: [12:00] danx2 danx0r: hah [12:00] Teravus Ousley: I second that =descriptive commit log = motion [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: well, any fixes would be good - I'm just desperate not to see more bugs creep in [12:00]  sacha Magne: charles and it will be nice if we can falg a commit as "suspicious" [12:01] You: yea one thing i request [12:01] You: about the log [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you're removing them then that's certainly cool :) [12:01]  You: if your commit has new commands [12:01]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:01]  You: changes to configuations [12:01]  sacha Magne: meaning "we fear something here" [12:01]  You: that you include that in your description for the commit [12:01]  You: that doesnt always happen it seems [12:01]  Charles Krinkeb: Sacha. I will be happy if we can just get more description. I think going too far beyond that is an uphill battle. [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah +1 on descriptive checkins... [12:01]  Teravus Ousley: :D Hey Dan. [12:01]  danx2 danx0r: hi [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: though that would be a reuqest better made on opensim-dev methinks [12:01]  Homer Horwitz: Nebadon: Define new commands? Console-commands? [12:01]  You: yes [12:01]  danx2 danx0r: having trubble sitting [12:02]  Teravus Ousley: Get within 3 meters and it should sit [12:02] You: somtimes i dont find out for weeks [12:02] Tiffany Sicling is Offline [12:02] Bill Humphries: okay need to dash [12:02] You: that there are new console commands [12:02] Bill Humphries: thanks all [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: are you watching commit logs? [12:02] Teravus Ousley: Ok take care Bill thanks [12:02] You: all the time [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: see you guys next time [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: me too [12:02] You: after something has been comitted [12:02] Melanie Milland: in sl, the avatar freezes when an attachment is edited [12:02] You: i always read them all before i update [12:02] You: yes [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: cheers Bill [12:02] Teravus Ousley:. [12:02] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [12:02] danx2 danx0r: is there a trick to sitting these days? [12:02] Melanie Milland: why not in opensim? [12:02] Teravus Ousley: dan: get within 3 meters [12:03] Homer Horwitz: No, no trick with sitting. You right-click, and sit. [12:03] Melanie Milland: homer, was that you who idid that inventorymodule skel for? [12:03] You: strange [12:03] danx2 danx0r: I keep sitting sideways [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: by the way, I'll probably highlight any new console commands in my weekly blog roundup [12:03] You: i see dan talking [12:03] You: but i cant find his avatar [12:03] danx2 danx0r: I'm on this slat bench [12:04] You: ah [12:04]  danx2 danx0r: sitting behind it, sideways [12:04] You: there ya are [12:04] You: lol [12:04] Teravus Ousley: looks like script events are lagging behind or overloaded.. [12:04] Homer Horwitz: Melanie: Yes. I started to separate profile and inventory, but got completely lost. And your solution to 1975 is much nicer, too. [12:04] You: those benchs dont work yet Dan [12:04] You: they arent scripted [12:04] sacha Magne: Question : will we keep the "standalone" mode ? [12:04] danx2 danx0r: ahh [12:04] Melanie Milland: that was what i thought you would do [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: any comment on the current ms stats? [12:04] Melanie Milland: +1 on dropping it [12:04]  Melanie Milland: it would allow to remove a HUGE amount fo cruft [12:05] danx2 danx0r: finally [12:05] sacha Magne: it will reduce our testing job and configuration job [12:05] Melanie Milland: if we dropped standalone [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: homer: the fact we have a yser profile server and a user profile cache service is a horrible mess [12:05] You: i wouldnt count on standalone ever being dropped [12:05] Aramis Soren: ok if it's dropped, is 0.5.8 still grid-compatible here? or should you tag a new 0.5.9 more up to date? [12:05] You: i dont think the devs will be up for that talk [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: and the user profile cache is a horrible mash of use rprofile and inventory [12:05] Melanie Milland: nebadon, why not? it's not needed anymore. it's a crutch. we walk without it noe [12:05] Homer Horwitz: Justin: right. [12:05] sacha Magne: i guess grid only could clean some code [12:05] You: yea i dunno there are tons of standalones out there [12:05] Melanie Milland: all we need is to launch grid servers automatically [12:06] Melanie Milland: on the same host [12:06] You: yea that makes sense [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: Homer: I looked at the separatio a while back and then found somethin better to do ;) [12:06]  Teravus Ousley: Yes.. Physics takes the brunt of it.. though it's always hard to tell if it's physics that's actually causing that.. [12:06]  You: as long as there is still some form of standlaone [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: separation [12:06]  You: thats all that mattees [12:06]  You: and that old standalones [12:06]  You: can easily be transfered [12:06]  Homer Horwitz: Melanie asked me to extract Scene.Inventory into a module, but I'm just not fit enough yet (neither in C#, nor in OpenSim architecture). [12:06]  You: if those 2 things can be achived it probably wont be a problem [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: very true - I see high physics ms times sometime but I know that's not necessariyl an accurate reflection [12:06]  Melanie Milland: yes. i agee that there should be no changes in configuration [12:06] Melanie Milland: and that behavior should inprove, ot degrade [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, inventory needs modularization [12:07] danx2 danx0r: nice av ter [12:07] Melanie Milland: but the actual programmatic support needs to be removed [12:07] Teravus Ousley: Sometimes.. other goes high when prim reference textures that don't exist [12:07] Teravus Ousley: Thanks :D [12:07] Melanie Milland: it's to be blamed for a huge amount of editing overhead for any sort of message [12:07] sacha Magne: Question/Reflection: What about a real console managment system ? [12:07] Teravus Ousley: It's my OSGrid version of my SL avatar.. [12:07] Melanie Milland: what could be done in 4 siles takes 21 now [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: Melanie: So how easy would that be for a user who wants to run a private single opensim? [12:08] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:08] danx2 danx0r: with attachments obviously [12:08] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:08] Melanie Milland: justin, how about a double-click? [12:08] Mech Left Leg Lower v1.0: Script running [12:08] Mech Left Leg Upper v1.0: Script running [12:08] Mech Right Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:08] Mech Right Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: sacha: Adam talked about that a while back [12:08] Mech Right Arm v1.1: Script running [12:08] Mech Right Arm v1.1: Script running [12:08] sacha Magne: justin ok [12:08]  Chris D is Offline [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [12:08] sacha Magne:. [12:08] Homer Horwitz: I think I've seen some remote admin function somewhere, no? [12:08]  sacha Magne:. [12:08] Teravus Ousley: If we do remove standalone it will need to still be plug and play [12:08] Mech Right Leg Lower v1.0: Script running [12:08] Mech Right Leg Upper v1.0: Script running [12:08] sacha Magne:. [12:09] BlueWall Slade: a good management API would be nice [12:09] Mech Left Arm v1.1: Script running [12:09] Mech Left Arm v1.1: Script running [12:09] Mech Left Leg Lower v1.0: Script running [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [12:09] Teravus Ousley: .. essentially it will have to be 'double click opensim' type in a few prompted settings.. and connect. [12:09] Mech Left Leg Upper v1.0: Script running [12:09] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:09] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:09] Melanie Milland: yes [12:09] Melanie Milland: not even settings [12:09] Aramis Soren: too windows-ish :) [12:09]  Melanie Milland: check opensim.ini [12:09]  Mech Left Arm v1.1: Script running [12:09]  Mech Left Arm v1.1: Script running [12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see scripts compliling on the console [12:09]  Melanie Milland: if standalone, asume localhost deafults [12:09]  Homer Horwitz: How many arms are there? [12:09]  Melanie Milland: defaults [12:10]  Mech Left Leg Lower v1.0: Script running [12:10]  BlueWall Slade: then web interfaces, SNMP agents, or console managmen t apps could ride on that [12:10]  Homer Horwitz: Because I see a lot of "Script running" messages; I'm not sure whether I'm the only one... [12:10]  Warin Cascabel: No, I see them too, Homer. [12:10]  BlueWall Slade: hehe, is that you neb? [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: ping [12:10]  Richardus Raymaker: i see them to in chat [12:10]  You: hehe yea [12:10]  Teravus Ousley: I would like more details about how it will be accomplished though Melanie. Probably one of those long OpenSim-dev e-mail list posts [12:10] Warin Cascabel: llOwnerSay is your friend. :P [12:10] You: my incomplete mech avatar [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: +1 [12:10] You: need to finish this badboy [12:11] BlueWall Slade: llOwnerSay :) [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: ping [12:11]  Teravus Ousley: pong [12:11]  Homer Horwitz: pong [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: pong [12:11]  You: unable to resolve host [12:11]  You: :P [12:11]  danx2 danx0r: my 6 -yr old says he remembers when opensim was "tiny" [12:11]  Warin Cascabel: poing [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha [12:11]  danx2 danx0r: but now it looks like Second Life! [12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: pong [12:11]  Teravus Ousley: network disconnected like pheer [12:12]  danx2 danx0r: he wants to know if I can fly from second life to opensim, or do I have to stop at Google [12:12]  Teravus Ousley: .. by pheer.. bad fingers.. [12:12]  Melanie Milland: teravus, as soon as i myself know :) [12:12] BlueWall Slade: lol [12:12] Richardus Raymaker: lol [12:12] Melanie Milland: basically, i would like to get consensus on removing that mode [12:12] danx2 danx0r: I said we're working on it [12:12]  Melanie Milland: as a strategic decision [12:13] Teravus Ousley: danx: you can teleport if you patch opensim and join gridnauts.. and get the OGP viewer.. [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: well you know, if there's a plan that will leave all the advantages of standalone intact then I don't see why it couldn't be done [12:13] Melanie Milland: and then time can be invested into determining the how [12:13] Teravus Ousley: though it's on the aditi grid [12:13] Warin Cascabel: Sounds fine to me, Melanie. [12:13] Melanie Milland: i'm looking for a statement of "Yes, we want to make this change. now let;s find out how" [12:13] danx2 danx0r: ter,ya I read about the tp tests [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don';t think you're going to get that without some idea of how to satisfy the current uses cases [12:14] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: but why not just post and find that out [12:14] Mech Left Arm Lower v1.1: Script running [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: standalone is a very useful mode [12:14] Homer Horwitz: Neb: Either you are missing some... bits, or that is an antigrav belt... [12:14]  Teravus Ousley: I'm with justin on that. the means will be the determining factor about how much support you'll get on it. [12:14] Melanie Milland: justin: if it's going to be wasted, i won't invest the time [12:14] danx2 danx0r: he knows about teleporting from club penguin [12:15] Richardus Raymaker: looks unny nebadon [12:15] You: lol [12:15] danx2 danx0r: so he says I should teleport to sl [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I guess you go ahead and post so that we can discuss it [12:15]  Teravus Ousley: Melanie. I also think that sdague should get back before we really decide fully [12:15] Melanie Milland: unless there is a consensus the we _want_ to get rid of the standalone code [12:15] Aramis Soren: now's the time for that father-son talk about licensing hehe [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: guess = suggest [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, deffo [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: +1 teravus [12:15] Melanie Milland: i can't justify spending weeks on finding the mean to do it cleanly [12:16] Melanie Milland: we all agree that the goal has tobe to keepit the same, or make it easier, to use [12:16] Teravus Ousley: yes.. for a 1st time user. [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: It doesn't take weeks to come up with some idea [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: not asking for an aching amount of technical detail [12:17] Melanie Milland: justin, the idea is there [12:17] Aramis Soren is Offline [12:17] Melanie Milland: transparently launch grid server processes in a defautl config that works on a single host [12:17] BlueWall Slade: would it be easy enough to put the SA in a server? [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: Well, put that idea out there and lets see what people say [12:18] Warin Cascabel: SOUNDS simple enough. [12:18] Warin Cascabel: So it probably isn't. [12:18]  Teravus Ousley: haha, isn't that always the case Warin? [12:18] Warin Cascabel: Sure seems to be. [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: If you can think it - you can do it! [12:19] Teravus Ousley: ok. I have to get to work if I'm going to have a chance to work on things later. [12:19] Richardus Raymaker: bye tera [12:19] You: ok guys [12:19] Teravus Ousley: Thanks for coming to the meeting :D [12:20] You: i think we can call the meeting concluded [12:20] danx2 danx0r: lter [12:20] Homer Horwitz: Bye, Ter