Chat log from the meeting on 2019-05-28

[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: No sign of Kayaker at the moment. He has had a number of questions over the last few meetings. [11:10] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: he had questions for bill if i remember correctly [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Partly waiting to see if one or two other people are going to be joining us, [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Looking at the clock, perhaps not today so we might as well get started. [11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Does someone have an issue or question for today? [11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Who wants to be first? [11:16] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: no issues i guess [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That will make for a very short meeting. :) [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Any news on the viewer front, Gavin? [11:16] Ubit Umarov: apparently some prims sizes checks did start to work... [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Not so much this week [11:17] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: I have a brief Question [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been putting it trouhg its paced redoing about 14 regions [11:17] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: After Garvin... [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bernd, ok. [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the simulator falls over before the viewer does [11:17] Ubit Umarov: if you have regions with large prims, make suer to check the settings on opensim.ini, or they my shrink :) [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's good, Gavin. Not so good that the sim falls over though. [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: you mean like megaprims? [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did continuous landscaping for about 3 hours before it crashed [11:18] Ubit Umarov: megaprims where a sl thing.. but yes more than 256m sizes [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: whats the opensim term? [11:19] Ubit Umarov: large prims :p [11:19] Ubit Umarov: ?? [11:19] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Isn't there a problem with physical prims over 64m in size? Would they change size or is physics just disabled on prims that exceed the lmiit? [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: megapirms used to be so fun if you edited them [11:19] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: i think just prims as megaprims refered to prims larger then the max size [11:20] Ubit Umarov: change into physical may also shrink prims.. [11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That was a long time ago when you couldn't have prims more than 10m. The viewers also used to clamp the size dimensions to 10m.. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: well mega usually means 1e6 something... [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The only change to the viewer is that the macOS version now require macOS 10.12 (Sierra) [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what happened that they are now handled differently? Is there a new opensim.ini setting? [11:20] Ubit Umarov: no reason to use mega on prims :) [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll get going on the 64-bit Win version next week [11:21] Ubit Umarov: guess on some of code revisions i made i did that work [11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, sounds good. [11:21] Ubit Umarov: check on physical state change was added a few months ago really [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I also tested it in the Windows 10 May 2019 update, and it seems to be doing OK [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so if someone upgrades their region that has  such a large prim they may find it breaks? [11:22] Ubit Umarov: check opensim.ini [11:22] Ubit Umarov: as you are suposed 2 :p [11:22] Ubit Umarov: and yes .. of course it happened, even to Dan lol [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so fixing something that wasnt broke? [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was recently updating a test region. After rebuilding the latest version of master the next task is always to check for changes in the ini files. [11:23] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: there have always been settings in the ini for max and min size, both phys and non-phys, if they are below the size of something in a oar could cause issues [11:23] Ubit Umarov: well it was broke, since it was suposed to work [11:23] Ubit Umarov: well 64m for physics is still a bit high thing [11:24] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: but the settings have been there for ages [11:24] Ubit Umarov: and more than 256m is also not that peacefull thing.. [11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so this is only for prims over 256? [11:24] Ubit Umarov: you don't like, but there are good reasons for limits [11:25] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: only for prims over the grids set max size [11:25] Ubit Umarov: think opensim default limits are 256m and 64m no? [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: For a prim over 256m you would have to change the opensim.ini [11:25] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: which is default 256 [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, yes, those are the default limits. [11:26] Ubit Umarov: with luck, if that happens, a restart after fixing opensim.ini may recover the prims [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: may? [11:26] Ubit Umarov: sice those size changes do not trigger a save.. but if anything changes, then the size is saved [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: and why the limit anyway just out of curiousity? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: bc limits are good :p [11:27] Ubit Umarov: gezzz [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: why? [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, are you often finding the need to build with a prim that has a dimension greater than 256m? [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: no Andrew but  just wondering what happens when the limit is exceeded [11:28] Misterblue Waves: there are those region surrounding terrain meshes [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: oh yes Mister [11:28] Ubit Umarov: well its not.. the region cuts the dimension to the max [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: good point [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 256m prims was mainly used for griefing [11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah one of the cases i was told was a region surroding thing, well if fact a full terrain replacement [11:29] Ubit Umarov: not that nice for physics, but well... [11:30] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: i set my grids max as 128m [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well just a warning.. this was a chenge i did not expected, size the code changes where only "cosmetic" [11:31] Ubit Umarov: i did expect the limits where there active [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Anything more on prim size limits? [11:32] Ubit Umarov: or gess old code did allow rez on same cases.. [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bernd, you have a question. [11:33] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: I am planning to code a small extension module to the OS land management. But to avoid double work, it would be good to know if something like this does still exists: It shall limit the land buy in a region (or estate) to the members of a specific group (and role) and limit it so a defined number of lots or square meters [11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't run across any sort of module that would provide those features. Any one else seen anything like it? [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: if there was such a module I think Melanie has it on the old forge site [11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: /menods [11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm not sure the old forge site is still accessible. [11:35] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: seemed to lost alot with the forge site going down [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: member of a specific group [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't you do that by setting the land to a group [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: it isnt but supposedly she has all those files still [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and then use group roles to limit further? [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The web archive might list what had been available. [11:36] Ubit Umarov: unf modules are very sensitive to core code changes :( [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, I was thinking the same about the group restriction part. [11:36] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: I think, this does not limit the land purchase [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: thought core changes werent allowed? [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe not .. there is a role permission buy land for group, but that is not exactly the same [11:38] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Y>es Ariell, this schould not change the core code, this should be an extension [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: No, it isn't. I just checked and afaict you mark land for sale to anyone or a specific person. [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: No group setting there. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: i meant that the API modules depend on does change a lot still [11:38] Ubit Umarov: ( even modules format did changed ) [11:39] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Currently I still not know how to create an extention, but I will try to figure it out [11:39] Ubit Umarov: ( if one goes back in past ) [11:39] Misterblue Waves: @Andrew: if you need some events added to core, make those suggestions.... I'd like to see more interfaces for modules rather than adding more to core [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it probalby also requires a viewer change to support it [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since the viewer have no concept of limiting land purchase to a group [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I tried a rebuild of current master and three add on modules won't build due to some code change that has been made. I haven't determined what was changed or what needs to change in the modules to allow them to compile. [11:40] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Set Land Group probably does the same thing [11:40] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: without the purchase bit [11:40] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: or Buy I mean [11:40] Misterblue Waves would like to streamline core by moving functionality into modules that subscribe to core events [11:40] Ubit Umarov: well basic change is make modules compile on .net4.6 [11:40] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Related to the viewer: I am aware of this and for my own use I will configure it via Web interface [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning? [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, I would make a request if I run in to a need for something. I am not actively maintaining a grid any more so there isn't anything new I currently need. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, we haven't seen you here in quite a while. Last I heard you got busy with RL. Any news about the physics engine? [11:45] Misterblue Waves: haven't done anything with the physics engine other than cursed at it [11:45] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: @ Garvin: For the first step and as long as only I am using this feature there is no need for the configuration via viewer - tor the land buyer he/she only gets an error message it the land buy is not allowed / dnied - If later the feature would be interesting for other grids, then I should talk with viewer providers :-) [11:45] Arielle Popstar: lots still using it [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Ok, np. Too bad that doesn't effect any change in code. ;) [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:46] Ubit Umarov: try showing a big hammer also.. [11:46] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Thank you for your interesting feedbacks [11:46] Ubit Umarov: that does solve some code issues [11:47] Ubit Umarov: ( not kidding.. once a pc was failing to boot.. as soon we placed a large hammer next to it, it did boot!!! ) [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Bernd, I think you may need to some external grid level tools to manage setting amount of land a person is allowed to own if different users will have different limits. [11:48] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: technological intimidation the new "have you turned it off and on" [11:49] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: ok Moss lol [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( you should also talk to your pc, of course ) [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bernd, You have all the feedback you need for now? [11:52] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Yes Andrew, thanks [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: 8 minutes to go. Any one else have a topic they want to slip in before we get to the top of the hour? [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I know I still have some wiki page updates to finish. Some paid work with some time pressures has been keeping me busy so I haven't gotten to the last few changes. [11:54] Arielle Popstar: the issue with the FS Quick preferences Hover height not working on the  login region but working  on regions i tp to [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Did you have something you wanted to ask, Han? I thought I saw you typing. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, is that a question or a statement? [11:55] Arielle Popstar: question or statement - your choice :) [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You might want to ask FS about that [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, are the regions running the same versions of grid code between where it works and where it doesn't? [11:56] Arielle Popstar: works fine in S/L so i know the answer  from them [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was under the impression OS does not support hover height [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen that setting in FS so I have never tried to change it. [11:57] Arielle Popstar: go to quick preferences  Andrew [11:57] Ubit Umarov: things like hover height are not our business.. those are viewer mess [11:57] Arielle Popstar: far lower right corner [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I have changed the buttons that are across the bottom of my screen. [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. that is still there. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: and on hover SL mad such a mess.. [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right Ubit, and because it is supported server side in SL and not in OS have hidden all that shit in my viewer [11:58] Arielle Popstar: well in this case there is something screwy with the  way the viewer and region  talk to each other [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: file a FS JIRA [11:59] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: the laurel wreath button ;-) [11:59] Ubit Umarov: we could at most store something.. hmm somewhere.. [11:59] Arielle Popstar: it works fine here but its because  i tp'ed from Lbsa [11:59] Arielle Popstar: if i  log directly in here it doesnt work [11:59] Ubit Umarov: when we see it stable and actually doing anything usefull [11:59] Arielle Popstar: it is useful [11:59] Arielle Popstar: very useful  for  quirky sits [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is useful if you use a mesh avatar [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or for other attachment / sit issues [12:00] Ubit Umarov: like the z offset they added on uploads then killed? [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a hover slider [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: generally available [12:01] Arielle Popstar: in appearance [12:01] Ubit Umarov: ahh z offset is still there yes [12:01] Arielle Popstar: but then it knocks you off the sit  you might be on [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: catapult seat? [12:02] Arielle Popstar: :) [12:02] Bill Blight: umm you can right click your avatar in FS Appearance > Hoverheight [12:02] Arielle Popstar: see my comment above [12:02] Bill Blight: does not knock you off your seat [12:03] Arielle Popstar: used to but maybe changed now? [12:03] Bill Blight: Not editing appearance, going right to the slider [12:04] Bill Blight: Appearance > Hover Height ........... You don't have to go into the appearance editor [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is one if you right click the avatar, but hidden in Dayturn unless in SL [12:04] Arielle Popstar: that knocked me off  my  seat [12:05] Han.Held @hypergrid.org:8002: You're trying this while you're sitting, Arielle? I just tried both ways (quick prefs and right-click-appearance->hover height) and my avi didn't budge [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wearing a mesh avatar Arielle? [12:05] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: does dayturn detect if it has the caps or not or does it disable that stuff if it sees the platform is OpenSim? [12:05] Ubit Umarov: seens a new cap was added for avatar hover [12:06] Arielle Popstar: you have your appearance set to auto pose you Han? [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It disables when not in SL [12:06] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: so by platform flag [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a large number of items that are [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the network manager has additional code to detect if OS or SL [12:07] Arielle Popstar: anyway the main point is that it will work after a tp but not on the initial login region [12:07] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: why not if it see's ifthe grid it logs into has the caps or not for those features? [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: much of the UI XML has only_in_SL in it [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because there is not caps for everyting [12:08] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: true [12:08] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: but there is packets for them [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is usually for hiding menu times, icons, whole panels, etc, etc [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some of the caps are also marked SL only in Dayturn [12:09] Arielle Popstar: i also note the same thing happens when jumping to a new grid with ao's and hud scripts. They dont work on the first region you land on but after a tp to another region on the same grid it does [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think the other viewers does that [12:09] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: like which? [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which caps? [12:09] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: yeah any examples? [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure - hang on a sec, but for instance the new fried caps and offline IM caps [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://bitbucket.org/dayturn/dayturn/src/default/indra/newview/llviewerregion.cpp [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from line 2781 [12:12] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: i see a cap thats listed as only on Sl that is actually in Opensim [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is? [12:12] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: LSLSyntax [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: deliberately omitted, [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because I maintain the syntax file for the viewer [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't want to viewer to pick up the mess on every region change [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it needs a baseline anyway [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we've had a long discussion on this earlier [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it works OK in SL where you have a very uniform environment [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here every grid may have an implementation, but the viewer still needs to know what is supported in the opensim release [12:16] Ubit Umarov: caps do have negotiation [12:16] Ubit Umarov: no real need to filter then like htat [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, it was more a way of reminding myself what code to get rid of then not being able to log on the SL any longer [12:17] Ubit Umarov: when asking for caps viewer sends a list of the ones it knows, region answers with the subset of those it knowns [12:17] Ubit Umarov: no need for that conditional they added [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so in OS it asks for a shorter list :-) [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: It is getting close to the half hour mark. About time to wrap up the meeting for today. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: they did exclude LSLSyntax that we do have now bahh [12:20] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: i pointed that out already [12:21] Ubit Umarov: missed it [12:21] Ubit Umarov: :)