Chat log from the meeting on 2009-12-29



[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[11:03] Digital Melody: hey neb

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hey neb

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: feels like it's going to be pretty quiet

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya probably thats ok though

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: theres a new version of the racer out here

[11:04] Friendly Harbour: hello everyone and happy holidays :)

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hey friendly

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: cool

[11:04] Colour Palette (Twin sets of prims, sets child prim colour): Initialising...

[11:04] Digital Melody: neb whats your website address again ???

[11:04] Colour Palette (Twin sets of prims, sets child prim colour): Initialising...

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I did the last of my friends events today

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: my website?

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: so now it's trying to get the old harness back on again

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i gotta rebuild some of it though

[11:05] Digital Melody: ok ta

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: my host shut my account down cause i exceeded 5gb in media files

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: bastards

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: so i had to emergency purge a bunch of sites off

[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: auts

[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi digital, JCC, Friendly

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: if your just getting here there is a new version of the racer

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: has new color change system

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Richardus

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: you can also grab just the color changer in front here

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: Adelle Fitzgerald designed it

[11:07] Key Gruin is Online

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: neat

[11:07] Digital Melody: hi rich :)

[11:08] Tesira Luco is Offline

[11:08] Digital Melody: i'm messing around with django just now to connect to my opensim, lol just to see if i can

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: cool

[11:09] Melanie Milland is Online

[11:09] Teravus Ousley is Online

[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: well, i have finaly a monitor tool running. so if correct no long downtime anymore

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i had a really hard time porting my racer over to ScienceSim

[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: hi ter

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Second Inventory and Imprudence were mega fail

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon - why is that?

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: ah

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: OAR and IAR seems to not get audio files

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it grabs them

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: really??

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but they did not play on SciSim

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: ohh. intresstig to know.

[11:10] Fly Man: Evening / Morning

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: did you open a mantis for that?

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: ogg

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 100% of audio files in IAR and OAR did not play

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: no not yet

[11:11] Digital Melody: yes i get weird stuff happening with the oar files and audio too

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: please do and tell me the number. I'd like to investigate that problem

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up reuploading all the wav tracks directly into SciSim

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i will

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i only found out at like 2am last night

[11:11] Friendly Harbour: is it only audio files that cause problems or have you found any other types too?

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: Hey Tera

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i did finally get the racer reassembled over there though

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: was a real pain though

[11:11] Melanie Milland: neb, were they direct audio, or were they part of gestires?

[11:11] Teravus Ousley: Hello Mr. CC

[11:11] Dahlia Trimble is Online

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: so why were you porting?

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: direct audio files

[11:12] Melanie Milland: i just recently added scanning of getures

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya no gestures

[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: hi melanie

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: these were the sounds in the racer

[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: hi hiro

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the files are actually inside the vehicle

[11:12] Teravus Ousley: Hallo Dahlia

[11:12] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)

[11:12] Melanie Milland: then i guess we're not handling that case

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i had to manually restore all the audio tracks

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the files do get ported over

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but they refuse to play

[11:12] Melanie Milland: oh, btw, where can i get the inworld sim load monitor, as seen on lbsa?

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: you do see audio files in the objects and in your inventory

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: they just dont play

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, maybe some problem reimporting them then

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: possible

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its also possible its SciSims Cable beach

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: thats mangling it

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it needs more testing

[11:13] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 6bd087a 2009-12-15 16:42:42 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: thats really why i have not mantis'd it yet

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel that's unlikely, but yeah - more testing is good

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey nods

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but ya

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i feel thats unlikely because uploading wavs via the viewer is fine

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its only OAR/IAR it seemed

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. There must be a specific problem in the mechanism

[11:14] Hiro Protagonist: Hello everbodeh

[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia

[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: sounds borked?

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hello Hiro and Dahlia and everyone else i missed

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:14] Friendly Harbour: hi hero, dahlia, penny ... and everyone else :)

[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: not really Dahlia its only borked when transfering oars to another grid

[11:14] Digital Melody: hey filling up nicely now :)

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: where the sound had not previously existed

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it seems

[11:14] Penny Lane: Happy festive week to all :-)

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, not as quiet as I thought it might be

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: suprise

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: oh to another grid?

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i was porting the racer to SciSim last night

[11:15] Penny Lane: Thanks Friendly, you too :-)

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and just hit about every wall imaginable

[11:15] Melanie Milland: well, it was actually quieter than expected :/

[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: I thought I noticed some sound borkage when reloading oars on OSGrid

[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: wasnt repeatable tho

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya for me it was 100% of the sounds

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: in the end i just reuploaded all of them with the viewer

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and it was fine

[11:16] Digital Melody: everyone must be hiding in there comuter room to escape the families :P

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:16] Friendly Harbour: ter: are you running to stay warm??

[11:16] Digital Melody: ter always makes me dizzy at these meetings :)

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: just to see how well the updates react under a small-ish load

[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: burn off all those excess holiday calories?

[11:17] Digital Melody: hee hee

[11:17] Friendly Harbour: :)

[11:17] Digital Melody: we should have a christmas osgrid conga to test the sim lol

[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: be happy the floor is not waxed melody

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh my inventory is downloading

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if it lags its my fault

[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: time for you to get a invemntory sim warehouse for yourself nebadon

[11:18] Hiro Protagonist: btw all, I recently gave radegast/lookingglass a test drive

[11:19] Hiro Protagonist: it's got a bit of potential

[11:19] Digital Melody: dddddddamn can't keep up

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya i tried it as well its starting to form into something useable

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: has a bit more to go but its got some good potential

[11:19] Will Boudreaux is Online

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully it ports into linux well

[11:19] Nebs Racer v0.161 (lite): You are not the owner of this vehicle, but you can copy it and have your own to test in this sim.

[11:19] Digital Melody: thats enough for me now lol

[11:20] Digital Melody: whats this neb ??

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol man im totally flooding the console with invnetory folder updates

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its a color changer system that Adelle designed

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i use it in the racer

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so did your inventory issues... go away?

[11:20] Hiro Protagonist: the region seems to be working well in spite of that and my near saturated network

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: which one Justin?

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: the one were i can kill a sim?

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, whenever you created a new folder (I think)

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: no

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that still is in there

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it would be a absolulte disaster if i made a folder right now

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we would all be relogging

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:21] Dahlia Trimble: oops I clicked it :)

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: huh

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i have 16109 items currently though

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ive been as high as 20,000

[11:22] Melanie Milland: oh i have to go

[11:22] Melanie Milland: dinnertime

[11:22] Melanie Milland accepted your inventory offer.

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: finally finished downloading though

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: bye melanie

[11:22] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)

[11:22] Digital Melody: cu mel

[11:22] Penny Lane: Does Hypergrid reduce the load on the sim because the av assets come from your own place in parallel, or does the sim still proxy them for viewer compatibility?

[11:23] Melanie Milland is Offline

[11:23] Penny Lane: Cyu Melanie

[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: oh thats hugh nebadon. i start to move things from inventory to a special region.. and im only at 3.6K

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i think everyting ultimatley feeds through whatever simulator you are in

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: the sim still proxies

[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think the sim needs to proxy them

[11:23] Penny Lane: Ew

[11:23] Mojito Sorbet: SHould just need to send a reference.

[11:23] Mojito Sorbet: Backward compatibility, etc

[11:23] Penny Lane: Is Naali going to relax that requirement for the sim to proxy everything?

[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: they need to be part of the scene before they're sent to the viewer

[11:24] Hiro Protagonist: should be that way post-robust if I understand correctly

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: robust itself can't do that - you'd need the viewer to fetch assets differently

[11:24] Teravus Ousley: there are a bunch of things that we don't really like about the viewer.. the friendlist when logging in.. the inventory skeliton when logging in.. other things.. that should really be decoupled from the sim.. such as inventory..

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: via url or summat

[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: textures and othere assets not needed for simulation dont need to be proxied, but hte protocol wont allow for it currently

[11:25] Penny Lane: The LL viewer is holding us back. Maybe Naali will overcome the everything-through-the-sim braindead design of LL's.

[11:25] Mojito Sorbet: Hey, video works

[11:25] Friendly Harbour: it all comes down to the limits of the ll-viewers

[11:25] Friendly Harbour: to get all the features you want we would need a viewer that was not dependent upon LL codebase

[11:25] Mojito Sorbet: We could pick one viewer as a testbed for new protocols

[11:25] Penny Lane: Yeah Tera

[11:26] Mojito Sorbet: Add in support for multiple backends, so as to keep the LL stuff?

[11:26] Mojito Sorbet: Certainly the existing LL Packet format is a horror

[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: its corect that opensim dont send always a viewer refresh ? for some reason i dotn get my own neigborn region visible if im in other neighborn region. after restart. when i teleport to WP and back i see the region

[11:26] Penny Lane: Maybe we need a New Year Resolution, to start leaving LL viewers behind.

[11:26] Digital Melody: antont would be the one to ask about the naaia viewer if he ever wakes up on the irc

[11:26] Friendly Harbour: i have the same problem RR

[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: yeah, good idea penny

[11:27] Friendly Harbour: i see the region go down, but not come up again

[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: me too, been looking into it but havent found a cause yet

[11:27] Friendly Harbour: have to do a region-cross or tp to see it

[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: friendly, thats what i mean

[11:27] Mojito Sorbet: Is Teravus trying to crash the sim by runing in circles?

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: thats why I brought up radegast/lookingglass actually

[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: sometimes shutting down the region with the quit command and restarting helps

[11:27] Teravus Ousley: I'm testing update responsiveness

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: no if i teleport into that region it woirks. but i the viewer crahs

[11:28] Friendly Harbour: ter is working off all the holiday calories :p

[11:28] Friendly Harbour thinks he gained several pixels during the holidays :p

[11:28] Penny Lane: Haha

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:28] Mojito Sorbet: Well, since Radegast+LookginGlass is pretty much new, there are lots of ways it could go. Especially since LookingGlass itsaelf is actually a separate process.

[11:28] Dahlia Trimble: I also have a problem where if I have too many contiguous regions on the same instance they become unresponsive when crossing borders

[11:29] Friendly Harbour: dahlia: how many is "too many"?

[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: sharing them between 2 instances and checkerboarding the regions helps

[11:29] Mojito Sorbet: LookiungGlass uses OGRE, which just recently changed its licence terms

[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: i use imprudence now. and i love it more then hippo. besides some small media problems. but that wil get fixt im sure

[11:29] Hiro Protagonist: I think the plugin/multiprocess architecture is actually quite brilliant

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: in a megaregion configuration?

[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: it happens around 3x3

[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: not a megaregion

[11:29] Digital Melody: hopefully in 2010 we'll get a good working non ll viewer then

[11:30] Hiro Protagonist: it allows viewers to be optimized for performance in specific application areas

[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: has the process for setting up a megaregion been documented in the wiki?

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its possible Digital Melody, i would not expect a full replacement in 2010

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but i think by the last quarter of 2010 we should have some nice beginings of a replacement

[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect 2010 is still too early for a good non-LL viewer.

[11:30] Friendly Harbour: i have had 4x4 regions on 1 instance in the past, but i haven't tried any recent versions

[11:30] Mojito Sorbet: I know that Radegast covers all the non-graphic stuff pretty well already. But remember it relies on libomv for EVERYTHING. So new protocol support ideas have to get into libomv eventually

[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: so I've been poking around to try to find out why, nothing obvious yet

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder what jhurliman has been working on (apart from being on hols)

[11:31] Mojito Sorbet: But you could test them out in Radegast befor committing to the libomv trunk

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya he hasnt been around since before the holidays much

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i was hoping Mic would be here today

[11:31] Mojito Sorbet: That is what I did wiht the Voice support - got it working entirely in Radegast first.

[11:31] BlueWall Slade: we probably hurt his feelings blaming him for all the bugs

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it becomes a question of do we support ll protocol as a legacy protocol, or are we fixing that protocol's shortcomings, or are we producing a derivative protocol?

[11:31] Penny Lane: Richardus: Imprudence is 100% stable here, love that. And the Imprudence devs are happy to add things for Opensim benefit.

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: or all of the above?

[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: but I did get a nice improvement in region crossings by hard coding IP addresses in my configs

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: interesting

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: strange that would matter

[11:32] Penny Lane: But it's best to leave LL's stuff behind entirely.

[11:32] Digital Melody: did you get sound working in imprudence neb???

[11:32] Mojito Sorbet: Need an abstraction layer above the LL protocol mess

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I think someone would have to strike out with a non-LL protocol and convince viewer devs to play with it (or help put it in a demo viewer themselves)

[11:32] Teravus Ousley: I dunno Penny.. I think it's better to support as much as we can.. at the same time..

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nobody has struck out yet afaik

[11:32] Hiro Protagonist: I think we will probably always want to support the LL protocol as a legacy protocol

[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: I have one JCC, it's kinda working, all http based

[11:32] Mojito Sorbet: There are several ideas floating around on what a new protocol might look like

[11:33] Penny Lane: Mojito: yeah, it could be decoupled through a proxy. But cleaner to start afresh with Naai perhaps.

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: oh yeah, the unity stuff. planning on publishing? :)

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya well with Naali its going to break compatibility pretty much

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: anyone using the cool naali features in their simulators

[11:33] Mojito Sorbet: I asked Q Linden if the SL Viewer/Sim protocol would be changing in the future. He said it would, then mentioned VWRAP.

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: anyone not using Naali will see wooden cubes

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: the naali protocol is built on ll - in fact it's a bunch of hacks on top

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:34] Penny Lane: Tera: in principle, that would be ideal. But as you know, in practice LL's legacy is holding all this back.

[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: not planning un publishing the viewer unless I find sponsorship, but I will probably release the protocol after I get it working pretty well

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: vwrap appears to have gone quiet - either behind closed doors or simply not action

[11:34] Dahlia Trimble: *on

[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: if it ever happens, how will you do SL -> opensim teleport with different protocols. i guess LL need to implement the opensim then

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: I'd like to see something done with MXP

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: that would be v cool

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: (I think thats what it was called)

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: Panda

[11:34] Mojito Sorbet: After struggling with the ObjectUpdatePacket for a few days, I swore that if *I* was designing that message I would encode it as a list of {propertycode,value} tuples.

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: while, I agree in principle.. I would suggest that what's really holding OpenSimulator back is lack of a good alternative viewer.

[11:34] Digital Melody: i can't get the servers or modrex setup in linux tryed for about a week or so

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: yeah - something at least to provide better flexibility

[11:35] Digital Melody: its the avi server won't compile under linux

[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: but I may start a panda3d viewer as an open source project and use the same protocols

[11:35] Mojito Sorbet: The lowest level of the LL protocol is ok, the variable length coding bit.

[11:35] Mojito Sorbet: Though I would mnae chanes there too

[11:36] Mojito Sorbet: THat silkly variable length packet type code is just inconvenient, and I doubt it saves much

[11:36] Penny Lane: JCC: nah, I'm what amounts to "VWRAP rep" here. ;-) And VWRAP is alive and well, but working to a different time frame to Opensim. Expect nothing for 3 years ... by which time Opensim will probably have interop all sorted and operational :-))

[11:36] Digital Melody: got a mesh build in blender transported into the realxtend under windowsfrom blender and looks good :)

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: maybe - but 3 years ain't all that long in protocol publishing terms.... but there will be a reference implementation for VWRAP right? Otherwise it is more likely to be doa imho :)

[11:36] Dahlia Trimble follows the vwrap stuff but isn't really a contributor yet

[11:37] Mojito Sorbet: I like a fixed 2-byte packet type, with the high byte indicating messaage group. This helps a front end direct packets to back-end services without having to understand all the details of each one

[11:37] Dahlia Trimble: my http stuff is a lot like vwrap

[11:37] Teravus Ousley: there was a barebones (don't know if it's functional yet) sirikata client connector that went in a few days ago from Adam Frisby

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. hopefully that will prove to be something that gets used a lot in the future.

[11:38] Mojito Sorbet: And put UDP on the trash-heap of protocols where it belongs

[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: after experimenting with http, I'm convinced UDP is a superior medium

[11:39] Mojito Sorbet: Supior for what purpose, though?

[11:39] Penny Lane: JCC:a DOA wouldn't surprise me at all. But the death might be progressive rather than sudden, and may well cause VWRAP to adapt to whatever Opensim does. I think you have a lot of power to move the direction here. Lindens are already chasing your tail lights, including those of the hurlicane ;-)

[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: high speed transfer of a lot of data in real time

[11:39] Mojito Sorbet: I do not think HTTP has any role excpet fetching tetxures and other bulky things

[11:39] Digital Melody: hey neb have you tryed this yet http://realxtend.blogspot.com/2009/12/tutorial-to-import-scene-from-blender.html

[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: anything http based is pretty slow in comparison

[11:40] Dahlia Trimble: but http gets through firewalls I guess

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: isn't UDP the only thing you can use for the stuff that needs a high degree of responsiveness?

[11:40] Dahlia Trimble: dunno

[11:40] Mojito Sorbet: I would prefer a TCP channel over UDP for most things. UNless you are doing something clever with broadcast.

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel a lot of the other stuff could be shoved to http though (which I imagine is what people have been doing all along with stuff like capabilities)

[11:40] Mojito Sorbet: TCP is pretty fast I think

[11:40] Dahlia Trimble: TCP is more overhead and reliability isnt always necessary

[11:40] Penny Lane: HTTP is not the only thing. TCP is perfectly fine without the HTTP mess layered on top of it.

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: I think pauses for retransmision are a killer though

[11:40] Mojito Sorbet: Unless you are concerned that guananteed deliver order is slowing things down

[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: HTTP is like implementing UDP on top of TCP

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear that it's a fatal probem - but I've never tried an http viewer implementation myself :)

[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: in a very inefficient manner

[11:41] Mojito Sorbet: Ok, ho about use UDP for things that can be lost, but everything else goes over TCP? The way LL reinvents TCP on top of UDP is unecessary complexity

[11:42] Penny Lane: TCP is the same speed as UDP + the circuits layer. And it's done properly, unlike LL circuits that have never been reliable.

[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: it's complex, but it makes sense for a lot of assets

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: true. It's a lot tougher to lead than to catch-up though. And the project doesn't have the kind of cohesiveness to pick 'one true direction' imo - which I think is a strength though

[11:42] Mojito Sorbet: One thing I have been thinking about is Viewer COncentrators. For when you have a bunch of Viewers on ther same LAN.

[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: anyway I'm giving HTTP a good shot ;)

[11:42] Will Boudreaux is Online

[11:42] Penny Lane: JCC: a swarm has a sort of cohesiveness too :-)

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's going to take a small group to strike out and show something else is possible (and document it well enough so other people can pick it up and not suffer abstraction leakage)

[11:43] Mojito Sorbet: Sned ObjectUpdate packs form the sim once, thne use broadcasting from a single gateway onto the LAN. This offloads quitye a bit fomr the sim, and would pay off for when you have a nuch of people in a building visiting the same sim. Say in a business of school

[11:43] Mojito Sorbet: my typing is lousy today

[11:43] Penny Lane: Mojito: a multi-user proxy?

[11:43] Mojito Sorbet: Yes

[11:43] Mojito Sorbet: More of a repeater

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: sound almost multicast for opensim

[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: that adds another step in the path

[11:43] Penny Lane: I want that too, for cache building.

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: I think there's been quite a bit of experimentation on this kind of thing in the past in connection with the older military simulation protocols

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: the only problem with broadcasting in the past is not a whole lot of configurations support multicast

[11:44] Mojito Sorbet: It is another step oin the path.

[11:44] Mojito Sorbet: But it is a very FAST step.

[11:44] Mojito Sorbet: You would oly use this when you have a fast LAN between your viewer and the repeater

[11:44] Dahlia Trimble has been running a somewhat complex proxy for the last year

[11:45] Penny Lane: Has anyone built a caching proxy using libomv? That would be a good candidate for starting a multi-user cache.

[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: I've learned a little from it

[11:45] Mojito Sorbet: I read that sending all the update packets ot all the viewers is a major bottleneck in OpenSim

[11:45] Mojito Sorbet: Lots of time spent in Protocol layers

[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: I've grabbed assets via a proxy but never injected them

[11:45] Mojito Sorbet: Even with the new packet-bundling

[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: problem is the LL viewer never makes up it's mind what portion of the textures it wants

[11:46] Mojito Sorbet: You mean the LOD?

[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: well discard levels and priorities

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: only thing i hear is LL viewer gives problems and problems :O

[11:46] Penny Lane: Well LL appears to have no interest in fixing their dead cache, so really a caching proxy is needed to get out from their deadend cache handling.

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: well would be nice if the alpha bug goes away to

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: their cache works for me, but it's limited

[11:47] Teravus Ousley: yeah, their cache works for me also.

[11:47] Mojito Sorbet: SO how about, the sim tells the viewer this prim uses textures X,Y, and Z. Here are the URLS to go get them. Then the viewer can fetch those textures any way it loikes

[11:47] Digital Melody: i agree on the alpha bug it fribes me nuts

[11:47] Mojito Sorbet: A cacheing proxy that could be share don a LAN might pay off too

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: Mojito, I think one version of the Rei viewer does that

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: isn't snowglobe doing that?

[11:48] Digital Melody: whats wrong with naai viewer ???

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: or something like it?

[11:48] Mojito Sorbet: Just for Maps I think

[11:48] Dahlia Trimble: snowglobe does it for map textures

[11:48] Mojito Sorbet: What is this movie playing here?

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: ah yes, I remember, thanks

[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: is the download of data threaded ?

[11:49] Mojito Sorbet: Nno possible complaints about somebody stealing your precious clothes textures form a publically accessible server that way. Whowants ot steal maps?

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: I think you have to enable threading for decoding

[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: lets say 1 for sound 1 for textures 1 for animations

[11:49] Penny Lane: Their cache is FULL of bugs,m which is why all support advice starts with "delete your cache". I want to dedicate a 1TB disk or greater to world cache so "delete your cache is completely unacceptable. That means starting afresh for cache, and coding it reliably, with plugin cache algorithms.

[11:49] Mojito Sorbet: Web Browseerrs run multiple back end fetch threads for images. I do not see why a viewer can not do that

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: so you know how LL are getting on with their Second Life Enterprise product?

[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i mean, but i think that can ony work with own viewer

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: my unity viewer can run multiple microthreaded asset downloads via http

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I've always presumed a lot of the coders have been shoved onto that

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: as many as the servers will handle

[11:50] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, that is what I was thinking. Set max number based on your ISP speed.

[11:51] Mojito Sorbet: Especially if the texture servers are CouchDB, or Amazon S3, or somehting like that

[11:51] Penny Lane: JCC: don't know about SLE, and don't care as it's not relevant to a community metaverse ... I don't see many non-corporate residents paying US$55k.

[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: having multiple channels is nice because TCP is a serial protocol and if it jams up, it jams up :(

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: don't forget, that it's also a registry setting on windows machines that limit the amount of connections that a client can make to a single server.. if you use wininet

[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: the linden UDP can handle multiple simultaneous downloads

[11:52] Mojito Sorbet: But to mulltiple servers at different IP locations?

[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: its cheaper for a company to run 4 full prim regions and see if the can dropend on 1 server.

[11:52] Penny Lane: Dahlia: so does UDP+circuits jam up. SL doesn't run on UDP. It runs on UDP+LL-circuits.

[11:52] Dahlia Trimble: Ive never seen UDP jam up, only lose packets

[11:52] Penny Lane: Same thing

[11:52] Teravus Ousley: the windows TCP stack will count the number of connections to a server over http.. and limit them if you're not really careful :)

[11:52] Mojito Sorbet: But there is the LL circuit protocol on top of UDP...

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: what's the typical limit?

[11:53] Penny Lane: TCP doesn't jam up either, it just waits for missing pacets.

[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: Ter, I find 4-5 to be a workable number of concurrent downloads so far

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: which I hear is the fatal problem with using tcp for any time sensitive data

[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: well, if you can use 4 channels instead of1 is still faster.

[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: from the application, it appears to jam up

[11:53] Mojito Sorbet: The majority of VOLUME going form a sim to a vbiewer though is NOT time sensitive

[11:53] Mojito Sorbet: Pick tghe appropriate protocol for the job.

[11:54] Mojito Sorbet: Its those textures and sounds

[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: people like http because it gets through corporate firewals

[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: http is not bad. maby more channels is nice

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I''ve always been surprised that LL chose to send asset data through UDP - maybe it was just simpler at the time

[11:55] Mojito Sorbet: I manage to run an SSH channel right through my coprorate HTTP protocol. Putty knows how to do that

[11:55] Penny Lane: JCC: time-sensitive data that isn't sensitive to packet loss is the only kind that benefits from UDP. That's almost nothing, outside of media -- just intersticial position updates, nothing else. Not even the main position updates benefit from it.

[11:55] Dahlia Trimble: I could get far more concurrent texture downloads via UDP than I can with http

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: although, mmm, probably was never that simple

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I agree - i think it could be pretty minimal too

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: hmm, good poitn

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: point

[11:56] Digital Melody: lol i had a big discussion with the django people today about why you shouldn't use the blob field for sorting images :)

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: do you find that to be a significant benefit?

[11:56] Digital Melody: *storing

[11:56] Mojito Sorbet: There is a bit more system resource in running TCP, what with the buffering and whatnot, but there is a return on that expense

[11:56] Dahlia Trimble: JCC, dunno yet

[11:56] Dahlia Trimble: I'm starting to implement more real time updates via http, we'll see how it goes

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: I have chat and avatar position updates working

[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: what i only know is pictures in database can anyway be tricky

[11:57] Penny Lane: JCC: LL recognizes they made a mistake now. UDP was only used because of Philip's experience at Real Networks --- a completely different type of application, in which packet loss is perfectly acceptable. Nobody dared contradict Philip, hence they have UDP.

[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I look forward to hearing about that

[11:57] Mojito Sorbet: Penny, I think there is a lot more than the use of UDP that is there bnecause of htings like that.

[11:57] Penny Lane: As Mojito says.

[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: after all I've learned, I think there is a popular bias against UDP but I believe it's largely unfounded and based on heresay

[11:58] Mojito Sorbet: Like that variable length packt code stuff. I remember that from character set design. Send most common things in fwer bytes. But why have 1, 2, and 4 byte lengths for a PACKET TYPE?

[11:59] Dahlia Trimble: with the exception of the firewall issues

[11:59] Dahlia Trimble: the LL protocol is incredibly complex and really is doing a lot of work

[11:59] Mojito Sorbet: What is that protocol that tunnels UDP through firewalls? Skype uses it I think

[12:00] Mojito Sorbet: STUN

[12:00] Richardus Raymaker: but lose a few bytes with skype is no problem.

[12:00] Penny Lane: Unfortunately, LL is going from UDP to HTTP, which is even more braindead as a world update protocol. Webbies appear not to realize that TCP works just fine, and bidirectionally, without any crappy HTTP layer.

[12:00] Mojito Sorbet: STUN is used for some VOIP conectios

[12:00] Teravus Ousley: it's called NAT Traversal

[12:00] Teravus Ousley: :)

[12:00] Key Gruin is Online

[12:01] Mojito Sorbet: I think the people who actually implement protocols in LL are smart enough to realize that HTTP will not work for updates.

[12:01] Mojito Sorbet: Unless, you use HTT{P the way streaming audio uses it. You use HTTP to set up the connection, then just stream packets over th eloink after the header has been sent

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: isn't that similar to the way xmpp works (except that's up in xml)?

[12:02] Mojito Sorbet: Yes

[12:02] Mojito Sorbet: XMPP is just like that

[12:02] Dahlia Trimble: one final editorial: the DARPA people were nice enough to give us both UDP and TCP, I'd hate to lose one just because now the web design kiddies that did everything with http have grown up and have infiltrated the ranks of the IETF

[12:03] Mojito Sorbet: An XMMPP session is just a very long XML document, that takes a looong time to send

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: ah dahlia - don't hold back now :)

[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[12:03] Friendly Harbour: :)

[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: have to, time for RL ;)

[12:03] Hiro Protagonist: heh Dahlia

[12:03] Mojito Sorbet: I think UDP has a place. I just do not like to see TCP reimplemented on top of it.

[12:03] Mojito Sorbet: If you need the functions of TRCP, then use TCP

[12:03] Mojito Sorbet: the functions of TCP

[12:04] Dahlia Trimble: gotta run, bye all, happy New Years and be safe :)

[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: if you go to that length it it pointless. But there are common cases for implementing partial reliability on top of udp

[12:04] Penny Lane: Well the very first implementation will prove it. LLSD over XML over HTTP with long poll over TCP is going to have 1/50th the bandwidth and 50 times the latency of current SL ...

[12:04] Hiro Protagonist: bye Dahlia

[12:04] Penny Lane: Bye Dahlia :-)

[12:04] Dahlia Trimble is Offline

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: is what I understand - never done such an implementation myself though - the LL one is the only one I'm anywhere near familiar with

[12:04] Mojito Sorbet: If anyone at LL actually does that experiment and gets that result, they will toos it out. They arent that stupid

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, LL employ some very clever cookies

[12:05] Penny Lane: One or two of them are. :-)

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: but they're bound by their commercial needs and other pressures, which counteract intelligence I think :)

[12:05] Penny Lane: Most are quite sane though

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[12:05] Mojito Sorbet: I think if they were freed of the legacy of the stuff that Philip wrote, they could actually do a good job. I am sure they have learned a lot

[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: definitely

[12:06] Penny Lane: Maybe that's what Zero's secret project was about ... it's supposed to be for 3-5 years in the future.

[12:07] Mojito Sorbet: When ever I mention some piece of protocol to Q that I think could have been done better he says "duh. ya thinkg?" So I think they know what needs ot be redesigned

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: that's not to say that they'll ever be free to do it though

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: and they're bound to be influenced by their commercial model - it's unavoidable

[12:07] Mojito Sorbet: Yes, orchestrating the changover could be tricky

[12:07] Penny Lane: Yeah. Just like with Hierarchical Objects. "We know we got it wrong with linksets".

[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: well i hope opensim gets and keeps better then secondlife..

[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: its already good !

[12:08] Mojito Sorbet: How does the opensim region sim handle multi-core processors? Is it threaded enough to take advantage?

[12:09] Penny Lane: I was glad to see Adam starting work on hierarchical objects in Opensim. SL will become like AOL today, is my guess ... a retro world, remembered as a legacy.

[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: In some places certainly, though I'm sure there are improvements that could be made

[12:09] Mojito Sorbet: Intel has this new 48-core chip they are already sampling to MSFT

[12:09] Kurt Stringer: mojito: not from my experience

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya perhaps, things will change a lot with meshes

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: if they get meshes right

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: OpenSimulator uses something from hurlicane that takes advantage of parrallelization

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: "if"

[12:10] Penny Lane: Tera: that's interesting. Any idea what?

[12:10] Teravus Ousley: it's an object that tries to parallelize for loops.. foreach loops.. and thread delegation

[12:11] Penny Lane: Which module is it in?

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: I think it's in OpenSim.Framework

[12:11] Penny Lane: I'll have a rummage

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: I could be wrong.. you could poke John at a later date though.

[12:12] Penny Lane: Yeah, after the festivities

[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I'm off - thanks for the intelligent chat folks

[12:12] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC\

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: kk Justin, thanks for coming

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: take care

[12:12] Friendly Harbour: bye JCC

[12:12] Penny Lane: Cyu JCC, happy holidays :-)

[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yeah, happy new year to everyone too :)

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: hippi new year :)

[12:13] Penny Lane: Hehe