Chat log from the meeting on 2015-04-14

[11:03] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit.. [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello :) [11:03]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi nebadon [11:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, alternating ... [11:03]  Shez Oyen: Hi Neb :) [11:03] Jak Daniels: hi Neb [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi neb [11:03] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sometimes yes, sometimes no ... [11:03]  Lani Global: Greetings, Gridlings! [11:03] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi Neb [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi lani [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hu UsuerUMMAU42 [11:03] Lexie Bushy: hello everyone [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: see, the ansere is 42 [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: user UMMAU42?? see http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7527 [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: lol [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya i saw that the other day myself [11:04] Lani Global: it is rampant [11:04] Robert Adams: hey all! [11:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi robert [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: that name is a placeholder for the user managment cache that freaky added last month [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hi Robert [11:04] Lexie Bushy: anyone awake [11:05] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi robert [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wish diva where around, i guess she knows the answere [11:05] Shez Oyen: Hi Lexie :) [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: answer for what Richardus? [11:05]  Lexie Bushy: hi shez [11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: My offline V2 IM HG dont get send to the avatar. it's stored in the offlineIM table. [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: oh [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: this is in grid mode? [11:06]  Shez Oyen: Hi Allen :) [11:06] Lexie Bushy: anyone have any skin's ext that i can have please [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 applauds Robert's work this week on OSSL ini settings [11:06] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        d96d31b: 2015-04-12 19:32:06 -0700 (Unix/Mono) [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Right now redoing that system, but the json everything get stored. but how do you send it to the avatar when you login ? i expect that need to be done automatic with V2 without extra's [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: oh yea Robert about that [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes robust mode nebadon [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: when i updated and restarted i got this > http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BBscMNSe [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSSL ini would be like OpenSimDefaults.ini and is not meant to be changed so you would use another file to customize the defaults? [11:07] Lani Global: good work, Robert! [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew. [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, Richardus [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, everyone [11:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi andrew [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, it's more like a gridcommon.ini type of file as I understand it [11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: spammy neb [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you'd edit it directly [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus, make sure you have the URL in Robust set correctly [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: SRV_IMServerURI [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: As soon as you upgrade your OS the file would get clobbered and you would lose all your hanges [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: s/hanges/changes/ [11:08] Robert Adams: LOL Nebadon... one for each regions!!! [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nebadon, but nobody seems to know why offlineIM V2 dont work [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol rpobert. [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: no its a single region Robert [11:09] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:09]  Robert Adams: people were concerned about region owners knowing :) [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: a single 256x256 region [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: it happened when I loaded an OAR and also everytime i start the region [11:09]  Shez Oyen: Hi Dahlia :) [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: with some messages it would be really handy to know *which* region it is [11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia [11:09] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi dahlia [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: like "unable to find texture xxx for object yyyy.....if you don't happen to know what region object YYY is in it can be a PITA [11:10]  Lani Global: Would osGetPhysicsEngineType and osGetPhysicsEngineName be allowed everywhere by default for everyone? [11:10]  Robert Adams: oh... that could be bad.... might be one for each script [11:10]  Robert Adams: yes Lani [11:10]  Lani Global: wonderful [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: yea it seemd a bit excessive :) [11:12]  vegaslon plutonian: ya limit to only the first 30 [11:12]  Robert Adams: I'll comment it out for the moment.... there should be a better place to put the warning [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ok cool thanks [11:13]  Robert Adams: at the moment all the OSSL stuff is embedded in XEngine but really it should be LSL centric (no matter which script engine) [11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: what is the difference between the get type and get name? One is number and the other a string? [11:15] Robert Adams: no, type is the name specified in the 'physics=' parameter in the [Startup] INI area [11:15] Lexie Bushy: 01 [11:15] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: if osGetPhysicsEngineType is available then why is the new osCheckODE needed? [11:15] Lani Global: it isnt [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Alicia, I was wondering that same thing [11:16] Robert Adams: name is the name from the DLL selected.... for BUlletSim, there were different versions planned for for different hardware, etc [11:16] Robert Adams: thechnically not Alicia [11:16] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: what melanie said about all physics engines should respond the same, just seems wrong to me, they all have differences [11:16] Lani Global: phys engine version number may become important at some point [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Is "physics" just specifying a type of engine? I thought it was really the name of it. [11:17] Robert Adams: but the idea is that scripts should be like mentioned in the email -- not BUlletSim specific but SL compatibale with some checks for legacy ODE operation [11:17] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont agree with it either Alicia, SL couldnt even make different Havok versions act the same [11:17] Lani Global: What if some particular aspect of a physics simulation engine is not exactly the same as current SL Havok? [11:17] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: if bullet is supposed to work the same as SL then it needs alot more work [11:17] Lani Global: Shall OpenSim Physics Engines be allowed to have new additional beneficial features that are unique, not canon? [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I could see the need for a get version of the physics engine [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet does need a lot more work [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I dont really forsee another engine anytime soon either [11:18] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: but i still dont think it can be made to match SL exactly as melanie seems to expect [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps you have some script that only works if a given version of a particular engine would let the script work properly [11:18] Lani Global: Would all OpenSim Physics Engines be forced into lock-step with the most recent SL implementation of Havok? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: MOSES is working on physx but its not gauranteed they will actually go the whole way or that it will end up in opensim [11:18] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: theres some things about bulletsim that I like better than SL havok... like a torus chain :) [11:18] Robert Adams: if BulletSim doesn't do it "right", it is supposed to get fixed [11:18]  OtakuMegane Desu: Opensim already doesn't use the full potential of physics engines. What real point would there be to switching again. [11:19]  Robert Adams: I am currently just giving tools to the scriptors to do what they need to do [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not convinced physx is a better solution either honestly [11:19]  Lani Global: we like those choices, Robert! [11:19]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I also don't agree that perfectly emulating SL is "right" [11:19]  Lani Global: thanks for the tools! [11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: DOesn't PhysX need support from the graphics card? [11:19]  Robert Adams: if they make scripts that only act in one place for one script engine, that is their choice [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: well we dont have to emulate SL exactly [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but LSL is a specific language [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: we should not be extending [11:20] Robert Adams: but now they have enough rope to hang themselves with compatibility problems :) [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: our scripting language is OSSL [11:20]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: we dont extend LSL, thats what os functions are for [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: right [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: I think the argument here is to extend a LSL function [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: to return physics engine [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: not going to happen [11:21]  Robert Adams: it is easy to add modules to OpenSim to add new scripting functions [11:21]  Lani Global: Physics engines will always have nuances and differences. Some new engine may have a new feature. [11:21]  Robert Adams: I agree Lani [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: we just need to make sure everyone can run that OSSL function is all [11:21]  Lani Global: OpenSim is modular. [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: either way people are going to have to update [11:21] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: not what i was saying, i just mean that osCheckODE isnt needed because osGetPhysicsEngineType does the job better [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:22] Allen Kerensky: simply put - extending llGetEnv to return opensim-specifics is EASY and 100% SL forward compatible - so its purely religion and politics if you want to go another route [11:22] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: there may also be some implicit way to determine physics engine [11:22] Allen Kerensky: the osCheckODE is one way [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: there was still debate at the time as to turning on OSSL for everyone [11:22] Robert Adams: true, Alicia... you now have both [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: now we are past that [11:22] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: such as some unique physical behavior [11:22] Allen Kerensky: or opening the osGetPhysics another [11:22] Lani Global: osCheckODE, osCheckBullet, osCheckHavok, osCheckNewPhys, osCheckNinja, osCheckUndocumented... [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the ode check was to resolve not turning on OSSL for everyone [11:22] Allen Kerensky: but the OSSL requires an enable step that is a significant change and people are throwing more religion and politics [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: not anymore [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: in core master code anyway [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: no releases yet, but that will come [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: either way it would require updating [11:23] Allen Kerensky: and it uncovered a new mandatory requirement no one knew in advance, all physics must be at least SL/Bullet compatible from a scripting viewpoint [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: there are also forks which wont have any of those checks [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: like inworldz [11:23] Lani Global: the LSL llGetEnv proposal was quick and easy. but it has snowballed into a massive OSSL thing. [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: I dunno why you really need more than one (maybe 2) OS functions for determining physics. One to determine the engine, one perhaps to determine features, etc. [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have a problem with the ossl config changes. Just that I'm concerned I'll lose any customizations when I update to the next version of grid code since I'll be modifying a file that is shipped with OS [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and I think IW uses physx anyway [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yea IW is very different [11:24] Allen Kerensky: and with osCheckODE - bullet scripts will still fail on IW or other physx platforms [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew the old methods still work [11:24] Allen Kerensky: so - now, if anything ever gets merged to core from physx, it will need cleanup [11:24] Robert Adams: llGetEnv would be easy to program but it really was the same arguements that were needed to get ossl fuctions on in general [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: anything you do in OpenSim.ini over rides the defaults [11:24] Allen Kerensky: and any physx scripts will need to change [11:24] Lani Global: I'm faced with designing products for the entire metaverse.... ODE, Bullet, etc [11:24] Robert Adams: getting ossl turned on was a bigger solution to the problem [11:24] Allen Kerensky: and they won't - jus tlike ODE - nothing solved [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yes but OS.ini is shipped as os.ini.example so no issue of an override [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: would be nice to have a way that didnt require a function that may not exist [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: err.. no issue of it getting clobbered during an update [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yea even with all of these changes [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: so your script doesnt crash when you call a nonexistent function [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: a huge swath of the metaverse runs old code [11:25] Allen Kerensky: and Melanie's position ignore people writing scripts that might get reused in Moses or other places [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: getting people to update is far more difficult than fixing this problme [11:26] Allen Kerensky: so - we're still Catch-22 it seems [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i dont like ODE too [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is fine, its not being developed [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ODE itself is pretty dead as a project [11:26] Robert Adams: there are a lot of people running old versions of OS... that will always be a problem [11:26] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Im not against some creative tweaks to llGetEnv [11:26] Lani Global: the main reason i proposed the use of LSL extension for llGetEnv was that it would not fail, even in legacy grids and sims [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Some of the reason for old code hanging around is so much ends up in the air or changing. Once you have something more solid at least some of that I'm sure will be updated. [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: and none of the opensim devs or volunteers are really extending it [11:26]  Allen Kerensky: the last commit to the ODE upstream was over a year ago - anyone updating opensim past that is running their own risk [11:27] Robert Adams: the function osGetPhysicsEngineType does not throw and exception if ossl functions are not enabled... it just returns a zero length string [11:27] Lani Global: so, there is no risk in calling that function? [11:27] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Robert, on SL? [11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: nebadon. just other question. do you know if there's betetr option for offlineIM V2 debugging. not found anything [11:27] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: wont even compile on SL I bet [11:28] Robert Adams: true Dahlia... wouldn't work on SL [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Any script using that function on an older grid (that doesn't have the function) will find that the script won't compile [11:28] Lani Global: as i understood it, IF call ossl function without ossl enabled in region, script fail. is that not the case? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: just that one specific function [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: others will [11:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Only the error message could be improved and intercepted instead of spamming a bunch of .net error code lines [11:29] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: pretty sure the console gets spammed on some ossl functions that arent enabled [11:29] Robert Adams: that was my first attempt at adding some script testing [11:29] Lani Global: so, i guess i won't close the mantis for llGetEnv extension yet :) [11:29]  Primitive: Script running [11:29]  Script saved [11:29]  Primitive:  [11:30]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: or maybe its mod functions that spam the console [11:30]  Lani Global gave you llGetEnv  for OpenSim v1.4. [11:30]  llGetEnv  for OpenSim v1.4: Rezzed! [11:30]  llGetEnv  for OpenSim v1.4: SL description of this function: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetEnv [11:30]  llGetEnv  for OpenSim v1.4: in Local Chat channel 0, Upon touch, returns a string with the requested data about the region. [11:30]  llGetEnv: dynamic_pathfinding = 101 [11:30]  llGetEnv: estate_id = 0 [11:30]  llGetEnv: frame_number = 733876 [11:30]  llGetEnv: region_idle = 0 [11:30]  llGetEnv: sim_channel = OpenSim [11:30]  llGetEnv: sim_version = OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        d96d31b: 2015-04-12 19:32:06 -0700 (Unix/Mono) [11:30] llGetEnv: opensim_physics = [11:30] Lani Global: tester [11:31] Lani Global: no fail problem in opensim or sl [11:31]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: sim_channel could say opensim-bullet [11:31] Primitive: [11:32] Script saved [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: sim_channel? Why "channel"? Makes me think of some port number would be there. [11:32] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: LL did that [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: not complaining. Just ciurious [11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. [11:32] Allen Kerensky: that's for the SL server development channel names - magnum, letigre, etc if I remember right [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: of course they would. :P [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: oh,we would call it a grid. They call it channel. ok [11:33] Robert Adams: not crazy about changing llGetEnv... anything done there would need the same permission tests as the ossl funtions (extensions to base LSL) [11:33] Allen Kerensky: well, the run 1/4th of the main grid on 1 of 4 server software channels - release, or one of 3 dev versions [11:33] Robert Adams: and if ossl functionality is available, there are the other functions [11:33] Allen Kerensky: so they can rotate regions like farm patches, testing 3 different batches of code in production [11:33] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont see why it would need permission tests [11:34] Lani Global: llGetEnv test unit script is online http://opensimulator.org/wiki/User:LaniGlobal#llGetEnv_Test_Unit [11:34] Robert Adams: people who don't want the ossl functions, don't want additions to the LSL language.... they want SL compatibility [11:34] Lani Global: there is one "greater issue" that we may want to explore, on the discovery of physics engine issue. [11:35] Allen Kerensky: well, I like having OpenSim specifics in OSSL calls - but something fundamental like physics engine type needs to always be available for scripters unless a 100% compatibility guarantee is offered by core devs [11:35] Lani Global: does the Viewer client need that Physics Engine info? [11:35] Allen Kerensky: API stability, or API flexibility through adaptive scripting [11:35] Robert Adams: and I don't know why you want llGetEnv with all the other ways of now doing the same thing [11:35] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont consider it an adition, its more a correction :) [11:35]  OtakuMegane Desu: At this point, SL compatibility shouldn't be a primary concern, unless it causes a major viewer issue. SL is basically EOL'd in its current form, so why have it hold things back? [11:35]  Lani Global: would it benefit the Viewer client to know Physics Engine? without some kind of OSSL bridge? [11:36]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: add new functionality to lsl is asking for problems and confusion. because you get document conflicts. not to mentoin what happens if soemone try it n SL :O [11:36]  Robert Adams: not that I know of Lani... but a viewer person would have to answer that [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont see why the viewer needs to know about physics [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: viewer is just rendering data its sent [11:36]  Allen Kerensky: well Lani was going with a suggestion to try to get something on the wall and that was the easiest way at the time [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: it has no concept of physics really [11:36] Robert Adams: there are few ways of sending that info... could do it in the login packet (like region size) if it was usable by a viewer [11:37] Allen Kerensky: the SL viewer offloads some stuff to a havok lib [11:37] Allen Kerensky: but that got paralleled for opensim with the hacd library I believe [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats for uploading only though [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: not rendering physics [11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: But we don't and won't have Havok so that seems like a non-issue for this anyway. [11:38] Allen Kerensky: navmesh stuff in SL may use the havoklib as well, I dunno [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yes it does [11:38] Allen Kerensky: yeah exactly Otaku [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: the only viewer phsysics is jiggly boobs [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:38] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it uses it to display the navmesh [11:38] Robert Adams: there is all the path following stuff... but I don't know about how to hook into any of that [11:38] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but I know a way to display a navmesh without it [11:39]  Allen Kerensky: OpenSim isn't SL compatible simply for that fact - but Robert has made it possible to get out of the box SL vehicle scripts to work well [11:39] Allen Kerensky: so Melanie's point was "if Bullet can - then everyone else should too" [11:39] Robert Adams: there is a lot of work needed [11:39] Lani Global: impressive how well bullet vehicles perform now. [11:39] Allen Kerensky: but no one loves ODE from a coding perspective so its the neglected stepchild here [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Certain types of vehicles would benefit greatly from being able to use path following. Will be nice when that is implemented. [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Honestly the viewer shouldn't have to deal with anything physics, that really is best server-side. [11:39] Robert Adams: but I want OpenSim to get out of its comfort zone and blaze new trails [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Agreed, Robert :) [11:40]  Lani Global: OpenSim is all about Freedom. [11:40]  Allen Kerensky: so maybe physics in OSSL is wrong - and it should be in a Bullet-specific scripting setup [11:40]  Robert Adams: I have to leave early... I have to run [11:40]  Allen Kerensky: and the same for ODE [11:40]  Andrew Hellershanks: LL won't be doing a lot more innovating on SL soon as they will be focusing on SL 2 [11:40]  Robert Adams: I will check in changes for that spam message soon, Nebadon [11:40]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: displaying a navmesh in an unmodified viewer without the havok lib http://dahliaisland.wwweb3d.net:8099/screenshots/inViewerNavmeshDisplay.jpg [11:41]  Robert Adams: bye all [11:41]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. LL has their shiny new project and given their history, they're not going to do more than bare minimum with the current SL now. [11:41] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bye robert [11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye robert [11:41] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: bye robert [11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Bye [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week, Robert [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ok thanks Robert [11:41] vegaslon plutonian: ah ya just make the mesh in the server and send it out [11:42] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: vegaslan, ya thats what I did :) [11:42]  vegaslon plutonian: always would work to make some custom terrains [11:42]  Allen Kerensky: oh well, I am not sure anything is really resolved for ODE addicts - they still have to change scripts to see if ODE is there somehow and I think that was the biggest objection [11:42]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it does that too :) [11:43] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I think kitely uses ODE [11:43] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: maybe avination too [11:43] Lani Global: yes, quite a lot of grids still use ode [11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: The transition from ODE is going to be a while. Possibly a long while. [11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Allen, change scripts so the run with bullet, thats the real solution [11:43] Kayaker Magic: Kitely gives you a choice, ODE or Buletsim [11:43] Lani Global: the HG market for phys vehicles is about half ODE and half Bullet now. [11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: And some grids may never change. Others may use PhysX or even another engine. [11:44] Allen Kerensky: yeah - well - bullet is default and compatible with SL/bullet is the requirement for entry into core [11:44] Allen Kerensky: so - anyone running something that doesn't meet that - is out of spec and on their own [11:44] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: requirement? [11:44] Allen Kerensky: it is now [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its not a requirement [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but it should be the goal really [11:45] Allen Kerensky: that was the practical gist of what Melanie said [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: for LSL [11:45] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Im not aware of any requirement [11:45] Allen Kerensky: if you want a new physics in OpenSim core - then it needs to seem the same as SL and Bullet from a script perspective [11:45] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: since when? [11:45] Allen Kerensky: about 12 hours ago [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: XD [11:45]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I'm a core developer and Ive not heard that [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats not really what she said [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: maybe someone has that requirement but I dont [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: she said the goal for LSL should remain compatible [11:46] Lani Global: Would all OpenSim Physics Engines be forced into lock-step with the most recent SL implementation of Havok? [11:46] Allen Kerensky: so - all llVehicle* calls made by scripts shoudl EXPECT SL/Bullet-like behavior [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: so LSL functions work the same [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: outside of LSL you can do whatever you want [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Melanie can impose any requirement on herself that she wants, but dont expect others to abide [11:46] Jak Daniels: I don't think it's practically achievable either [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: she never said it was a requriement just that was what she recommended [11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but then Avination can't keep their leg up on the scripting side by violating that "rule" :p [11:47] Allen Kerensky: she said, and I will quote: MUST. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt mean it is [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: that just her feelings [11:47] Allen Kerensky: when you use the word must, in LARGE LETTERS, that implies more than a recommendation [11:47] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Allen, she is not the supreme ruler [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: you shouldnt take anything any one person says as absolute fact [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: thats just how melanie talks, she is very straight forward and literal [11:48] Allen Kerensky: not going to argue religion or politics here - just reporting what I read [11:48] Lani Global: One can't expect any new physics engine, or any opensim module for that matter, to arise fully formed and bug free, canon compliant. [11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: ^ [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: of course not [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but we really shouldnt be scripting around bugs [11:48] Lani Global: lol [11:48] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Allen, well you misinterpreted :) [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: and then expect developers to nurture bug work arounds [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: I am completely against that [11:48]  Allen Kerensky: pfff scripting around bugs has been an OPenSim requirement for 6 years [11:48]  Lani Global: we've been scripting around bugs for years! [11:48]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the entire "make it just like SL" thing is one of the biggest anchors of the entire development process from what I've seen [11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Did you told that to LL in the past to nebadon ? :P [11:48]  OtakuMegane Desu: BulletSim for how long it's been available and the amount of manpower behind it is progressing wonderfully I think. [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: right but we shouldnt be locking those bugs in [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: because if something changes and your work arounds break [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: then what [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: you have to change the scripts anyway [11:49] Allen Kerensky: then I have to work around again, speaking from past experience [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: so whats the point [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: we just keep adding layers of duct tape [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: its not good [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: points to SL [11:49]  OtakuMegane Desu: Needs more bubblegum and paperclips. [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, that is where adaptive scripts come in if they can check which version of which engine is being used. [11:49] Jak Daniels: we will always be scripting against a moving platform [11:50] Allen Kerensky: so it was a simple request: give scripters a way to see the damn engine - and everyone turned it into a socio-politico-religious battleground and someone gets stuck out regardless [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have any physics engine versioning [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so no [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt work either [11:50] Lani Global: often we can't wait for the enthusiastic dev to get to a particular bug fix... sometimes it takes several years. [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Allen really ? [11:50] BlueWall Slade: is the solution to just pin each subsystem down to one choice and focus the available resources on it? [11:50] Allen Kerensky: yeah ODE people don't want to rescript their stuff [11:50] Allen Kerensky: that's why they stick on ODE when Bullet has been default for how long? [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Pffff. well, then it's easy. it just stops working sokemday [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and the need to change [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: even if we add all of this stuff, there are still going to be changes [11:51] Allen Kerensky: yeah I don't have a dog in the race [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: that cause skew [11:51] Allen Kerensky: so do whatever you want [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: so i just dont see the point [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: we will never be able to keep parity [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and people are going to have to constantly change scripts [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: there is no getting around that [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: If not a physics engine version you could use the build date for it or last commit date [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, if they want to stick with ODE, that's their choice. Someone will probably run an ODE-only grid or two or something. But they don't need to complain when everything else moves on. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and if people dont update then there is not much we can do [11:51]  Lani Global: OpenSim is MODULAR. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the people who are staying on ODE are also not updating [11:52] Allen Kerensky: but its not equally supported modules [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: alot of people think if you update [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: you cant even use ODE [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: seriously [11:52] Allen Kerensky: yeah and that clogs things with other problems like TP issues [11:52] BlueWall Slade: I think a lot of people just don't change becaus eof fear, etc. [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: people refuse to use OSGrid [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: because they think thy have to use Bullet [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: like seriously? [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:52] BlueWall Slade: even though they are riding a decaying horse [11:53] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: nobody updates ODE because noone using it is a contributor [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: I only started using Bullet a few months ago when I got my new server because CentOS 5 puked on Bullet for some silly reason. [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: people with old versions on HG onmly cvreate problems. the think ODE use less memory. well mabey it does. because it cannot do much [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea and the core ODE project doesnt really offer much in terms of updates either [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: so anything new done to ODE would be by opensim devs pretty much [11:53] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: centos 5? isnt that like.... ancient? [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: or cpu usage. uhh [11:53] Lani Global: people like having a choice. [11:53] Lani Global: freedom. [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: Not in terms of server OS, no. It's getting old but hell 4 is still used in numerous places [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: You need someone versed in physics stuff to get in to working on the engine. I've contributed some code but Physics isn't an area of code I'd want to tackle. [11:54] Allen Kerensky: well, Lani the bad news is people who want ODE are free to pick up 13.x and start updating it - and then updating the OpenSim module depending on it [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: I will still running opensuse 11.4 on the OSCC server up until a few months ago [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: choice is fine as long as people choose to support those choices they want [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it was using Kernel 2.6 [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: if they expect others to support it on their own time,... not going to happen [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn'trealize ODE is something that existed outside of OS [11:55]  OtakuMegane Desu: I don't have need for cutting-edge Linux for my server. I need something stable that I don't have to worry about. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is aincent Andrew [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly for Scientific type work [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: not games [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ODE is in a lot of games [11:55] Lani Global: there isn't any cry or whine for more ODE support. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but ya there are some games [11:55] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lots of driving games too [11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I stopped making any attempt not to use OSSL a couple years ago juest because I was tired of hamstringing myself by using only LSL or by having to double-write huge inefficient portions of things...if people want to stick to old systems that's fine but don't stunt development/progress/new capabilities in an effort to support them [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: yea its big with track stuff like tanks [11:55] BlueWall Slade: Bullet is probably the best thing goin gright now for game physics. [11:55] Jak Daniels: OtakuMegane: It *is* possible to use bullet in centos 5 ;) [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: games? [11:55]  Allen Kerensky: yes Lani there is - when Dahlia's patch somehow impacted ODE scripting, you were the first person to say "enough" [11:55]  Lani Global: there is only the need for knowing whether ODE or some other engine is in use. [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: but alot of it is use for simulation work [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks doens't have a lot of time for games [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:56] Lani Global: lol [11:56] BlueWall Slade: Unles you have deep pockets and can stuf your data center with GPU [11:56] Sarah Kline: Theres always a whole load of people trying to hold us back [11:56] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Allen, my patch? [11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: It works yes, but something about how the module was compiled CentOS 5 didn't like. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Bullet is a good choice, even though its not perfec [11:56] BlueWall Slade: ++ Sarah, lol [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its still being maintained, its open source [11:56] Allen Kerensky: something about llLookAt changes made ODE vehicles not work or something, not sure Dahlia [11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: It involved SysV and junk, [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its used in a lot of big games and hollywood movies [11:56] Jak Daniels: yes, byte 8 in the .so needs changing ;) [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: we are not running the latest bullet in opensim yet [11:57]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: according to the spec [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and even with the version we run we are not taking full advantage of it yet [11:57]  Lani Global: Dahlia, there was a vehicle ODE banking workaround that borked when llLookAtRot went physical.... but that has been sorted out [11:57]  OtakuMegane Desu: I compiled it myself for a while. NOw I don't need to at all, since 6 works fine with it. [11:57]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: llLookAt does *NOT* bank, according to the spec [11:58]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: if you want banking, llLookAt is the wrong choice [11:58]  Lani Global: yeah, well, when ODE didn't have Vertical Attractor, a banking method was derived from other functions. [11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Anybody here klnow offlineIM v2 debug way. or how to get the messgae from daytabase send to your avatar with V2 ? (it'sin the databse stored) [11:58] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well llLookAt is NOT supposed to bank [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: teah. [11:58] Lani Global: true. [11:59] Allen Kerensky: RiRa if its in the DB then the offlineim v2 isn't noticing the login to get it back out? [11:59] Lani Global: but, it enabled physical vehicles in OpenSim to have banking for several years in ODE, until BulletSim came around. [11:59] Allen Kerensky: that at least narrows down where to look if the messages are in the DB [11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. but hopw to fix it ? mabey bug in opensim ? [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I'm still using the older way of handling offline IMs [11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is there a Mantis on it? [11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think it's a long standing problem possible. i use 0.8.1 [12:00] Allen Kerensky: two options RiRa - dig in code or do git biset to identify the breaking commit [12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, because i dont see any error etc. not sure. i can mamke one. but it dont have much info [12:00] Allen Kerensky: git bisect that is [12:00]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Lani, then those vehicles are scripted improperly, and to make them act as you want it would make *properly* scripted things *not* work properly [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I havent had any trouble with the new Offline IM [12:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no trouble = can't send IM at all? [12:00] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: my offline IM work fine also [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, what is offline IMs doing (or not)? Not sending offline IMs to users, not letting someone retrieve them? [12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: nebadon. it IM send from Hypergrid [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: oh [12:01]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: if you want banking, use other functions [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: so local ones work? [12:01] Lani Global: Dahlia, yes, you are correct in theory, but in practice that wasn't possible. [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: local -> local works [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ok interesting [12:01] BlueWall Slade: maybe the database is old and has the bug that was discovered a bout a year ago? [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i probably havent tested that much [12:01] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Lani, then use bullet [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but HG -> local ->avatar = fails except it got stored on the grid [12:01] Lani Global: Dahlia, as I said, 2 years ago Bullet wasn't an option. [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi bluewall, impossible it where fresh database created by opensim 0.8.1 [12:01] BlueWall Slade: ok [12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, check the way the offline IM from HG is saved. Perhaps it is saved with the full avatar name plus @ and grid name. Retreiving that locally mayfail as it won't be expecting the @ etc, part when doing a lookup for offline IM's. That's my guess at it. [12:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the console says, retrieing offline messages for uuid. but more debug code i dont get [12:02] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Lani, should I break other people's *properly scripted* objects to fix your *improperly scripted* vehicles? [12:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: then i need to check that with new system is up. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea that was my point earlier, one way or the other, someone is going to be broken [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:03] Lani Global: Dahlia, you should feel free to work however you like to make it better. [12:03] BlueWall Slade: th atis like the old sit target position bug [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but then it would be bug in OS.. anyway where are local offline IM 's stoired ? [12:03] BlueWall Slade: it worked ok, then was changed, then was broken and people made scripts with the wrong position [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea then everyone fixed their chairs [12:03] BlueWall Slade: then when it was fixed, it brok all sit scripts [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: and we broke it again [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a separate table for them, Richardus (AFAIK). [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Never alter function to "support" bugs or flaws unless it's something benificial and desired enough to be of benefit to all. [12:04] Nebadon Izumi blames Nebadon for that [12:04] BlueWall Slade: and weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth was heard for weeks [12:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: months....if not years [12:04] Lani Global: many creators gave up making chairs for several years. [12:04] BlueWall Slade: there is a bug that has been out a while for non-standard avatars. [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: I was walking through a mall in sweden voicing with justin convincing him to break it a second time [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Don't need no chairs. :P [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:05] Sarah Kline: we were chairless [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:05] Sarah Kline: lol [12:05] Lani Global: funny! [12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Chairs are for pro wrestling. [12:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I do have one thing I would ask somenone else to test please: it seems under current robust disallow direct login for HG isn't working any more [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ultimiately it was worth it [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: even though i had to fix literally 1000s of chairs [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol