Chat log from the meeting on 2016-02-23

Some minor typos were edited for better readibility [10:57] albertlr Landar: He is still one of the Admin. [10:57] lavender -pretty: ohh okay.. [10:57] albertlr Landar: Just real world obligations [10:57] lavender -pretty: is Allen still on the board? [10:57] albertlr Landar: yes [10:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I hear you talking down there in front of the building. :) [10:57] lavender -pretty: i never see him either [10:57] albertlr Landar: he handles our database [10:58] albertlr Landar: you can usually find some of them or the IRQ channel [10:58] albertlr Landar: channel [10:58] Lucy Afarensis: maybe we should move upstairs [10:58] albertlr Landar: yea guess so [10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, Billy [11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Lucy is a member of "Artisrs"? [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if that is a typo [11:01] Lucy Afarensis: it was supposed be artists [11:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Let's see if it's still intressting after this day to visit meetings [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, typo. I wondered about that. [11:01] Lucy Afarensis: but I kind of liked the mispelling [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Lucy [11:02] albertlr Landar: Well until more people come. Let me introduce myself. [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I was sort of wondering about that. The last few haven't been. They were mostly complaints about how things are going with development. [11:02] albertlr Landar: I am albertlr Landar on the board of OSgrid, Inc. as its Secretary. [11:02] albertlr Landar: I am not a develpoer, I am a user like most are. [11:02] albertlr Landar: But my back ground in in non-profits. [11:03] albertlr Landar: and basically running them. [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, albertir. [11:03] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I think todays meeting may be busy :) [11:03] albertlr Landar: We now have Osgrid, Inc. set up as a 501(c)3 Tax Exempt organization [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Only person I've previously met who is involved with osgrid has been nebaon. [11:03] albertlr Landar: And basically means anything donated to the organizaton is tax deductibe in the US [11:04] albertlr Landar: That does not apply to any other county. [11:04] Lucy Afarensis: If I only had an income [11:04] albertlr Landar: And the person wanting that deductions would need to be in the US paying Us taxes. [11:04] albertlr Landar: Well actually I don' [11:04] albertlr Landar: t either. [11:04] albertlr Landar: just SS. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm thinking perhaps I should sit on one of the stools as I'm the only OS core member usually at these meetings. [11:04] albertlr Landar: And I am retired, but I do have time. [11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you can hijack neb's place [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: umm... only other core member, other than nebadon [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to take the other stool. [11:05] albertlr Landar: And Andrew as the only one here, we need to thank you for your contributions. [11:05] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Robert sometimes attends [11:05] albertlr Landar: BTW, are you in the US [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems strange sitting over here [11:06] albertlr Landar: The reason I ask. [11:06] albertlr Landar: Is what ever time to devote to the opensimulator project can be deducted from taxes you may pay here [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you but I'm not one of the developers that does a lot of work on the main parts of OS. [11:06] albertlr Landar: Well does not matter. [11:07] albertlr Landar: If you spend time, and that time can be documented and has a value that you would say charge a customer, it can be deducted. [11:07] albertlr Landar: Its called In-Kind donations. [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder who else is going to be here today. A few regulars are missing. [11:08] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Albertlr, European here [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Mabye more missing. stopped already the hifi dev meetings. and the osgrid ones seems already not really usefull for long time [11:09] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Well we can open by asking if anyone has any specific issue they wish to raise [11:09] albertlr Landar: Well one of the complaints I've seen for a good while is that the project needs better documentation. [11:09] Lucy Afarensis: I have found them a good source of useful info [11:10] albertlr Landar: And currently I am working on the OSgrid, Inc. wiki, but am going to start on some of the Opensimulator too to fix bad links. [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: albertlr, documentation, or lack of it, is an ongoing problem. [11:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Sound good albertlr [11:11] albertlr Landar: And this coming Saturday, we are going to start up the Saturday Q&A. at the same time here. [11:11] albertlr Landar: When more people may be able to attend. [11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: beforr of after the documantation you get the problem that there's no real improvment in opensim. and hard to reach that too [11:11] Kayaker Magic: Instead of, or in addition to this time? [11:11] Lucy Afarensis: Who will be answering ? [11:11] albertlr Landar: General to help people with setting up opensim, discuss bugs, etc. [11:11] albertlr Landar: In addition to. [11:12] Kayaker Magic: Great, I'd like to get my OSgrid sims back on-line. [11:12] albertlr Landar: And we probably need to work on one step by step process on how to do this. [11:13] albertlr Landar: A lot of website have done this, but people have a hard to locating accutate information, it should be in the wiki. [11:13] Gwenette Writer: It would help me to have a current step by step that is vetted by this org and not a third party [11:13] albertlr Landar: And we intend to tyr to get better communication and perhaps participation with the Viewer developers. [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Andrew, are you running this meeting today instead of Neb? [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, as best I can [11:14] albertlr Landar: Andrew my question is what areas would outside help be most affect. [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Kayaker, neb stepped aside [11:15] albertlr Landar: For now [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: For those of you here, you may or may not have heard that nebadon has decided he needs a break from OpenSimulator development for a while. He hasn't said if, or when, he will return from his break. I don't expect to see him at these meetings for a while. [11:15] Kayaker Magic: Oh no... another link to the past lost.... [11:16] Lucy Afarensis: That is sad, He will be missed [11:16] Gwenette Writer: Well, I am almost always working with clients that are new to opensim and to virtual worlds. I clear list of pros and cons to setting up your own servers versus leasing from OS host would be helpful - maybe a list of gear and skill sets needed to install and maintain? [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon is still a member of the core team so the hope is that he will see more from him in the future. [11:16] albertlr Landar: No not really, he is using opensim himself. Just things are slow right now, and he has other obligations. [11:16] Gwenette Writer: Neb will be missed, but on creative journeys = good news. [11:17] albertlr Landar: And he is also still an Admin here on Osgrid. [11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew, then opensim need to get more usefull first am afraid [11:17] albertlr Landar: How is it not useful now? [11:17] Gwenette Writer: More useful than what Richardus? [11:17] albertlr Landar: It already does more than SL does. [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Then now. i mean there's not real progress [11:18] albertlr Landar: Have to used the newest code? [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, it depends on how you measure progress. [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, it does lot's not what SL can do. it's still slower then SL too [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: nope. am done with that testing stuff, since some other person in 2013 screwed opensim a bit [11:18] albertlr Landar: It can handle more avatars in a region. [11:19] Gwenette Writer: The "speed" of an opensim region is dependent on its home server and user gear. i find all my worlds are faster than SL for the most part. [11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew, LSL still slow. mesh uploader is sometimes tricky. [11:19] albertlr Landar: If you read the logs of the past few meetings. [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: The code is still being worked on. There is a lot of progress being made in the code. It just isn't seen by a lot of users as it is in the master branch of code. Unless you use the code from master you won't see a lot of the changes until a release is made. [11:20] Gwenette Writer: clients' worlds are almost all private and on Dreamland Metaverse host [11:20] albertlr Landar: You are talking about viewer problems, not opensim problems [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh no, LSL is really terrible in opensim. compared with the same thing in sl [11:20] albertlr Landar: That is exactly what Nebadon was saying, we need either a more opensim specific viewer or improvements in the ones we use now. [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nah, viewer is other problem on top of opensim problems [11:21] albertlr Landar: And some have taken that as an insult. But it is a honest evaluation of things. [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Lot's of Hypergrid problems still in opensim [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: correct, albert [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: agree albert. without that you keep running bad [11:21] Lance Fang: Hypergrid issues such as teleporting and contact list online status? [11:22] albertlr Landar: And that is what I an offering, we are going to try to get a list of the things that each viewer needs to have, and which does not have them, and try to work with those viewer developers to get it into their viewers [11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Offline IM, groups. Online status [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: The projects needs two things: more people who can work on the OpenSimulator main code, and people who can work on the viewer side of things so we can have a viewer that works well with OpenSimulator. [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Am not sure if it's correct. but is materials saved on the region or not ? i heared it failed. so not sure. i would think it where fixed [11:23] albertlr Landar: No one is going to turn their backs on the hard work that the viewer developers have done, but we need to work with them closer to get what we need. [11:23] albertlr Landar: Materials, referring to Mesh. [11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no materials = textures [11:23] albertlr Landar: ok [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: normal map and some other one [11:24] Kayaker Magic: Andrew, I thought the viewer side of things was taken care of by the Avination new viewer project [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: someone here that use it [11:24] albertlr Landar: that won't be available immediately. [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I've heard that there is a new viewer project but I don't expect it to be available for a while. [11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: there's is a new viewer object. but when it's done and if it sucseed. is unknown [11:25] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Albertlr, not sure if you have used Hypergrid, but Wednesday there is a safari. You may find the experience enlightening [11:25] albertlr Landar: its basically starting from scratch for the viewer so that it is specific to opensimulator [11:25] albertlr Landar: removes most of the SL bloat [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Minor changes to viewers can be done in a short amount of time. If the Avination project is more of a ground up reworking of a viewer it will be a big project. [11:26] albertlr Landar: yea I know there are some problems with the hypergrid, but that is Diva's area. [11:26] paulie Flomar: heh. excuse the tail. :) [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Opensim need todo much to get uptodate withSL,Sansar and high fidelity :O [11:26] Dolph.Gehlbard @74.170.99.194:9000: no worries [11:27] paulie Flomar: :) [11:27] albertlr Landar: And right now there have been changes to the old code. So when you go from one code base to another in hypergrid, you may have problems. [11:28] Sarah Kline: something along the lines of the old Hippo viewer [11:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have no worries. not really use Opensim much anymore. anyway annoyed by some things (valid for sl too) [11:28] albertlr Landar: we need to make sure that any problems are reported in the mantis. [11:28] Sarah Kline: that was pretty opensim centric [11:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Yes Albert there are some challenges ahead due to changes that effect compatability [11:28] albertlr Landar: If it is already there, add your own report to it. [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: There will be some issues travelling between worlds if people stay on the older code. [11:28] albertlr Landar: The more reports the more attention it will get to be fixed. [11:28] Murilo Frade: Andrew, I am software developer and know a little bit of C#. I'm trying starting to code in opensim source code. Do you have some tips for me? Where can I start ? I already read some posts from justin's blog. [11:29] Murilo Frade: I really want to contribute too [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Murilo, help is appreciated. [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the first things to do, for anyone wanting to help in coding for OS, is to join the Open Simulator dev chat in IRC. [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: The channel is #opensim-dev on freenode.net [11:31] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: What we are concerned with, especially the 'new' viewer, is will opensim be changed to accommodate any add-on modules required? [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Other developers can be found there and if you need help, that is your best place to ask. [11:31] Murilo Frade: Thank you Andrew [11:31] albertlr Landar: I would say read the mantis, see if you can trace down the problem, if you can make a patch to fix it. Add that to the mantis, so that they can evauluate it. We have link to it on our website under contacts [11:31] albertlr Landar: http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/contact [11:32] Sarah Kline: I've heard an add on will be required..if made available to opensim..this is specifically an avination project [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Murilo, there is a bug tracking system and you can check it for "low hanging fruit" or some issue that is near and dear to your heart as something to work on. [11:32] paulie Flomar: Billy: are you discussing Melanie's upcoming viewer? [11:32] albertlr Landar: Also if you look a Diva's website, she posted the procedures the Developers follow for code changes. [11:33] Kayaker Magic: The consensus seems to be: Don't hold your breath for Melanie's new viewer. [11:33] paulie Flomar: okay. sorry Im a bit out of the loop lately. [11:33] albertlr Landar: That same link I gave you goes to the mantis page for bug reporting. [11:33] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Anyone working with opensim project, especially those required enhanced functionally, need to know if that interface is stable.. for some time [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: A new viewer for use with OS shouldn't require changes in OS as the new viewer should be written to deal with how things are in OS. There could be changes in OS that will result to make things work better with the viewer. [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: mabye this usefull (if not outdated) http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Developer_Documentation [11:34] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: As you are aware, software development is not cheap... and an organization needs to evaluate the stability of a project [11:35] albertlr Landar: The new viewer will be modular. You can either use it or one of the current viewers [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the issues is in the communications between viewer and OS. Having an OS specific viewer will allow some of the communication protocols to be optimized. [11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup [11:35] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Then one would assume some form of specification is available? [11:36] Kayaker Magic: The original specification for OpenSim was "something that responds correctly to the SL viewer" [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: i'm not involved in the viewer development. My expectation is that any changes needed in OS to work with the new viewer will be one in a branch at first and not affect the main code until the code could be merged in to the main code. [11:36] albertlr Landar: The way that opensimulator has been set up, is to accept plug-ins. Some may be necessary for one user that is not necessary for others. [11:37] albertlr Landar: I saw someone said they may be interest in working on the compiler for scripts on opensim. [11:38] albertlr Landar: That would seem to provide a big improvement if that got going as a separate project would it not Andrew [11:38] Kayaker Magic: Is the script engine a plugin that can be replaced easily? [11:38] albertlr Landar: yes [11:38] Dolph.Gehlbard @74.170.99.194:9000: hmmm [11:38] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Yes Albertir, that is true. You may find it useful to see how the project has been documented on github [11:38] Kayaker Magic: Someone should look at the script engine that InWorldz recently put in the public domain. [11:38] albertlr Landar: Right now you can use ubode, ot Bulletsim. [11:38] albertlr Landar: The Army is working on that now. [11:39] albertlr Landar: or Moses [11:39] albertlr Landar: The one on Inwords would be compatible with opensim. [11:39] albertlr Landar: but the one from Moses may. [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: albert, a new scripting engine has been discussed. It would help. Again, it comes down to needing someone who can do the work. [11:39] albertlr Landar: exactly. [11:40] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We use a technique called perception mapping, used to focus projects. Part of TRIZ very useful for projects like opensim [11:40] albertlr Landar: the one from inworlds would be incompatible with opensim [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, someone wanting to work on the script engine for OS could look at the IW code. IW forked off the main OS code a while back, AFAIK. It may not be easy to make use of their code. [11:41] Kayaker Magic: But writing a new script engine from scratch is a HUGE project. Starting with an incompatible one might be a leg up. [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I think another term for that is mind mapping. [11:41] Sarah Kline: Ubode is prolly superior [11:41] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: here is an example of project development https://github.com/EriHoss/LibLSLCC [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, it might be. It would depend on how far their code has deviated from mainstream OS [11:42] albertlr Landar: and ubit is working on Ubode, Roberts Adams is working on Bulletsim. [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: It could provide guidance on changes for a new scipting engine. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: ubODE is another physics engine for OpenSimulator. IIRC, it is based on the older ODE engine. [11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: New SL compatible physics engine. like ODE or Bulletsim. last 2 are not complete compatible [11:44] Sarah Kline: its come from Avination..and its pretty good [11:45] Sarah Kline: I have had the bwind sailing script working perfectly [11:45] albertlr Landar: Its a big improvement of the orignal obe. [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Some scripts were written for use with ODE and don't work quite right in BulletSim. ubODE addresses that by having an ODE based (or compatible) engine with updates/fixes. [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, paulie. Thanks for coming. [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't been following OS development much in the last couple of months due to some family issues. [11:48] albertlr Landar: For those that came late, I will be having a Saturday meeting at 11 grid time here, to discuss bugs, viewer problems, what is needed, and maybe to try for form a committe to better communicate with the viewer developers. [11:49] albertlr Landar: This is what Nebadon wanted us to do before he left. [11:49] Lance Fang: Thank you for continuing on Nebadon's legacy, Albert [11:49] albertlr Landar: And it will help to attract more developers to the more cental core work too. [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: albert, that sounds great. I hope you get a lot of people at the meeting. [11:49] albertlr Landar: just pass the word around. [11:49] Sarah Kline: I hope we can be more friendly now to Jessica ^^ [11:50] albertlr Landar: and we plan to have it each Saturday. [11:50] albertlr Landar: i sure want to. [11:50] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: There are G+ and Facebook channels [11:50] albertlr Landar: Keeping personality conflicts out can be difficult, but if we keep our eye on the ultimate goal, it can be done. [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of patience is also required. Code development never moves as fast as one would like. [11:52] albertlr Landar: And BTW, let me recognize one of our new board of director members for Osgrid, Inc. Sarah Kline. [11:53] albertlr Landar: But Andrew as a developer can you narrow down some specific areas of the core that needs the most attention. [11:53] albertlr Landar: The reason I ask. [11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: The are several projects with Opensim as a foundation, would be good to have all these people together sometime [11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: eg MOSES etc [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I think 2016 will be a good year for the OpenSimulator community. We have the massive set of code changes from Avination, and we have a new viewer in the works. if those are both released this year it will be an exciting time. [11:54] albertlr Landar: We can go and try to get some funding to help. but we would need some specific goals in order to attract corporate support. [11:54] albertlr Landar: And I am referring to ones like Google, MS, Amazon etc. [11:55] albertlr Landar: They would benefit with a successful opensource opensim. [11:55] albertlr Landar: so I would think that would be attractive to them. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Funding is good to have but it doesn't help if there aren't the people to do work. It can help someone be able to spend more time on the project. [11:55] albertlr Landar: Now Ms owns Havoc now for instance. [11:56] albertlr Landar: Agree, but you can't employ them until you have the funds. [11:56] albertlr Landar: And money does attract, more than volunteer service. [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: btw, congratulations on your new board position, Sarah. [11:56] Sarah Kline: exactly [11:56] Sarah Kline: oh thanks Andrew :) [11:56] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: i have a question about 0.9, may i ? [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Jeff, go ahead [11:57] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: what are the new features of 0.9, and will they need to upgrade the viewer? [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Jeff, the existing viewers will still work with 0.9 [11:58] albertlr Landar: i can tell you the current viewers work well with the 0.9 [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I've started summarizing the changes in 0.9 but I haven't had the time to work on it lately. I still have around 2,000 lines to go through from the Avination code dump and there have been other changes since then. Its a big job. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: A summary will be put together before 0.9 is released. I hope to have a preliminary list of changes available before then. [11:59] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: you mean : we don't know exactly what is new in the avination merge ? [11:59] albertlr Landar: no there are just so many changes, it takes time to narrow them down. [11:59] albertlr Landar: 3,000 plus changes? [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want to read over 2,000 lines of one line summaries about changes you can find out just what changes are in the new code, Jeff. [12:00] Sarah Kline: :) [12:00] Dolph.Gehlbard @74.170.99.194:9000: comparative script? [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: albert, the original summary I was given was over 3,000 lines. I've culled out entries that were code merges, or comments that didn't provide any useful information, or weren't worth including in a change summary. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I have started categorizing the changes. I have about a dozen categories. [12:01] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: problem is : we have no idea of *what* to test, except for possible regressions [12:01] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: If we can talk code, there has been a number of cleanups in LLClientView, however the protocol is still incomplete [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: The short answer is test everything. Beyond that, it is hard to point to any specific things to test as so much is, or has been, changed. [12:03] albertlr Landar: We have 0.9 regions running the new code here now, so go there with any viewer and test everything. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Jeff, you can test the features that are important to you. If you find problems make sure you report them. If the core developers don't know of problems they can't be fixed. [12:03] albertlr Landar: Give feed back to the viewer developers and report what you see to the mantis. [12:03] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Would be good if this meeting concentrated on opensim code substructures and the like [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: This grid is generally running OS code close to the latest set of changes so it forms a live test of the code. [12:04] Lance Fang: has anyone ever considered adding Open Simulator to any of the Linux repositories? [12:04] albertlr Landar: To be honest I have all my regions and home grids running the core change. [12:04] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: i've heard that core code is behind of OSGrid in terms of stability/reliability, is that true? [12:04] albertlr Landar: And the only major problems I have seen are with teleporting, and hypergrid. [12:04] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We have created a number of facilities that profile opensim communications based on tcpdump extensions [12:04] Lance Fang: I believe if we can get OS into the repository of say Debian, Ubuntu, Mint [12:04] albertlr Landar: And some boarder crossing. [12:05] Lance Fang: and people can just do an "apt-get install" [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, the meeting can cover just about any topic related to OS. We may not have the people here who know enough about the code to always answer code specific questions but they can be passed on to the people on the IRC developer chat channel. [12:05] Lance Fang: we might end up with a lot more users [12:05] Frank.Orbis @hg.dsgrid.nl:8002: I found yesterday  "A  bug"  in Robust  versus  search  now  i  wonder is  this a  known  issue? before i  say  anything  let  me  know  or  i  can as  i  am not with  my  osg  avi  here? [12:05] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Also to learn opensim, tools like dtrace can be useful to map thread performance [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Lance, interesting idea. I'm note sure if anyone has tried to do that or what the criteria is for getting a project added to a repo. [12:06] Lance Fang: Andrew ..... I know that the Linux gaming forums are alive and users there are looking for good games with realistic graphics [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Frank, Check the bug tracking system, ask on the IRC channel or just file a mantis (aka. bug report). [12:06] Lance Fang: once I posted a screenshot of OSgrid and over 5000 viewers saw it [12:07] Lance Fang: some messaged me saying that it was one of the most realistic graphical environments seen in a native Linux game / simulator [12:07] Frank.Orbis @hg.dsgrid.nl:8002: yes i  did  its  not there Andrew [12:07] albertlr Landar: you just need to set up an account there and you can file a mantis report. [12:07] albertlr Landar: Just fill out the form. [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Frank, it isn't always easy to find a report that covers your topic. If you can't find that its already reported just file a new report. [12:08] Lance Fang: so I thought if we can get Open Simulator into a repositories for one of the bigger Linux distros, like Open SuSE, Debian, Fedora, Mint, Ubuntu ...... we might drastically increase our user base [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Worst that can happen is someone will say its a duplicate and point to the previous report. [12:08] albertlr Landar: They will eventually combine it or remove it if its been duplicated. [12:08] Lance Fang: and potentially find new people interested in developing as well [12:08] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: It would appear these meetings are more for business types than technical, [12:08] Frank.Orbis @hg.dsgrid.nl:8002: yes will  do  for  now  i  solve  it  manual  in the DB  -  thank  you [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, technical discussions have been held here. The last few weeks have been seeing lots of talk about how it seems like the code development isn't progressing. [12:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: in generic terms yes [12:10] albertlr Landar: But the slow down actually helps some people because it gives more time to uncover actual bugs. [12:11] albertlr Landar: and get them properly reported. [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Lance, it could give OS a wider exposure but it isn't an easy system to get up and running. [12:11] Lance Fang: I hear you Andrew ..... I was working with Kokua trying to get the 64-bit viewer working under Linux and it was a mess [12:11] albertlr Landar: With all the major changes right now its hard to hand it to someone and say its ready to go. [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks nods to albert [12:12] Lance Fang: if it was included in the distro mainstream repositories and we package it so that it is an easy install with apt-get install ....... [12:12] Lance Fang: for the Debian based distros [12:12] albertlr Landar: BTW, I might mention one thing. [12:12] albertlr Landar: Some have complained that it should be called Beta and not Alpha [12:12] albertlr Landar: That is really to protect the code. [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, that is something else that has been discussed. [12:13] Lance Fang: and the equivalent commands for the rpm based distros [12:13] albertlr Landar: When it is beta that changes its legal state, and people could sue if it does not work well [12:13] Lance Fang: good point Albert [12:13] albertlr Landar: While in alpha, such expections can not be expected legally. [12:14] albertlr Landar: And since this is not a profit making group that is why. [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: it is hard to know when you could consider it Beta. That implies a certain level of planned functions are ready and just need final testing. [12:14] albertlr Landar: Well when you reach a certain level of stability [12:15] albertlr Landar: But the code is always changing, and improving hopefully. [12:15] albertlr Landar: And from what I have experience it has improved greatly. [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Beta label also tends to mean you won't have to deal with any big changes that might break things. [12:15] albertlr Landar: exactly. [12:16] albertlr Landar: Now Andrew will you post the chat in opensimulator wiki [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: If someone dropped in a new scripting engine would you still want to keep a beta label on it? (as an example). [12:16] albertlr Landar: which moses may do. [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera has been posting the chat logs. I'll pass her a copy as she hasn't been seeing the usernames properly today. [12:17] albertlr Landar: ok good. [12:17] albertlr Landar: I am not sure how I am going to handle the Saturday meeting yet. [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there anything else wants to say before we close the meeting? [12:17] albertlr Landar: May try to move that to a separate page. [12:18] albertlr Landar: anyone notice the vacant sea around Wright plaza [12:18] albertlr Landar: no neighbors. [12:18] Lance Fang: oh yes [12:18] Lance Fang: I take it that makes the plaza faster? [12:18] albertlr Landar: Found out it was moved to help reduce lag. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, we can close the meeting for today. See you next week. [12:18] Lance Fang: no region to region chatter? [12:18] albertlr Landar: yea, and it did help [12:18] Dolph.Gehlbard @74.170.99.194:9000: haven't had time to look yet, myself [12:18] Lance Fang: great idea about the Wright Sea :) [12:18] albertlr Landar: ok [12:19] albertlr Landar: look at the bottom of that page. [12:19] albertlr Landar: It describes the Saturday meeting. [12:19] albertlr Landar: I blame all my misspellings on my hand that had surgery, BTW [12:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: would be a nice feature to have a void value assigned when positioning a region. Especially open grids, so regions can be neighbor free [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: i haven't been involved in a lot of code or OS related stuff the past two months as I was dealing with the illness of my cat. Unfortunately we lost him this past Thursday morning. I'm still getting over not having him around any more. [12:20] albertlr Landar: hum can usually use the map for find vacant spaces. [12:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: we could probably do that [12:20] Lance Fang: Albert .... you type better with an injured hand then most of us type with a non-injured hand! [12:20] albertlr Landar: Dan told met to try places like 20000,25 [12:21] albertlr Landar: not one goes below [12:21] albertlr Landar: hardly [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to head out. If you need me or want to talk about any other issues related to OpenSImulator I'm on the opensim-dev channel and there is also the opensim-users channel. [12:21] Lance Fang: thanks for chairing the meeting with Albert [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I get the feeling I'll be doing this a bit more until such time as nebadon returns. [12:22] albertlr Landar: Glad of that. [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm hoping he will return so I chose to sit on the other stool and not the one he usually used. :) [12:23] albertlr Landar: And we plan to get into anything really that someone wants to talk about or ask questions or guidance on Saturday. [12:23] albertlr Landar: And we may be able to talk some developers either core or viewers to attend also. [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be there if I can but I'm not counting on it right now. I'll have to see how my weekend goes. [12:24] albertlr Landar: ok thanks for considering. [12:24] albertlr Landar: I am going to try to get some people to work. [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: albert, please send a reminder on the IRC channels when the day for that meeting gets closer. [12:25] albertlr Landar: well take care everyone, enjoy a less laggy Wright Plaza, because I see some new neighbors creeping in soon. [12:25] albertlr Landar: already [12:26] albertlr Landar: BTW,this is probably one of the best regions to test the new code. [12:26] albertlr Landar: Its full of scripts and prims. [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Btw, the open space around this region was due to a code bug, iirc, for one thing. There was a problem with draw distance. [12:31] albertlr Landar: now just wanted to ask one final questions, anyone here a developer [12:31] albertlr Landar: that might be interest in helping. [12:32] albertlr Landar: If so I can get you some informtaton, or links that would guide you towards things. [12:32] albertlr Landar: If you know someone please let them know we are looking for help. [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: albert, I am to a degree. I dont get too involved in the core parts of OS [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I see. :) [12:32] albertlr Landar: Thats ok [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. ttyl [12:33] albertlr Landar: As I say there are outside projects that could be done. [12:33] albertlr Landar: As opensimular is modular. [12:33] albertlr Landar: It could be an add in. [12:33] albertlr Landar: There is interest in our own voice modul I understand. [12:33] albertlr Landar: Those sorts of things. [12:34] albertlr Landar: And when we meet we are going to try to find out which sort of projects the community wants most. [12:34] albertlr Landar: Then we can go get funding for it. [12:34] albertlr Landar: And start connecting people to them that can get them done. [12:35] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Thalia Adams did that once with quite some success :-) [12:35] Murilo Frade: I want to help, albertlr [12:35] albertlr Landar: This was done on a smaller scale with several fixes which were put into opensim at one time or another. [12:35] albertlr Landar: Ok thanks for offering, I am going to try to put together a mailing of some sort so we can all communicate on this. [12:36] albertlr Landar: Maybe a g+ thing. [12:36] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: yes it was [12:36] albertlr Landar: and it can continue. [12:36] albertlr Landar: Just have isolate what needs to be done. [12:37] albertlr Landar: We are going to have a meeting of our membership in APril, and going to bring that up then too. [12:37] albertlr Landar: But for now going to start this Saturday meeting each week to see what can be accomplished