Chat log from the meeting on 2017-08-08

[11:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: HG: OS 0.9.x may be close to release. It won't automatically mess up your mesh  https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/08/2017-help-hg-os-09x-may-be-close-to.html [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: relevant article [11:02] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: @Selby as long as you use the Bullet Physics Engine / wich is the default YES..... [11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hope this gets the info out [11:03] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: if you choose ubODE there is quite a bit of current content in OpenSim that will render as Phantom [11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, like I said [11:04] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I don't think that can be fixed [11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The text in the chatlog may be a bit different -- there may have been some edits [11:07] George Equus: Been using ubODE  for a long time now, np, Tried Bullet yesterday, broke a LOT for me.. hmmm [11:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Personally have not used bullet for about a year [11:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I was lucky I only broke two pieces of mesh on my grid when I started using 0.9 ubode. *phew* [11:08] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: love ubode. [11:10] George Equus: Suppose my issues is fixable, but will need a scripter to help me :) [11:10] Ubit Umarov: hopefully robert will be able to do some work on bullet soon [11:11] James atLLOUD: sounds funny to me that the physics engine breaks the mesh.  Isn't the mesh already 'broken'? [11:11] Ubit Umarov: like the reported issues and better handling of physics shape type [11:11] Ubit Umarov: physics engines do not change meshes.. they only use them [11:11] Arielle Popstar: "broken"  is a  term used for  mesh uploaded  in what is considered to be the standard  method [11:12] Ubit Umarov: ( they may change the physics shape type stored on inventory ) [11:12] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: broken?....  reupload it with ubode running....it gets fixed if it's good mesh.. works fine. [11:12] Ubit Umarov: NO NO NO sorry [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Standard Opensim method of the the past Arielle, not standard for the rest of the world [11:12] Ubit Umarov: physics engines take no part on the upload process [11:12] Ubit Umarov: its all viewer options basicly [11:13] Arielle Popstar: is there anything besides  mesh  to discuss? [11:13] Ubit Umarov: what the mesh will do when rez.. that is physics engine.. not the upload [11:13] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: nods and nods......so ... good mesh...  physics engine can then make a collision matrix around it. [11:14] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: As to "broke" I refer you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics [11:15] Ubit Umarov: well not much code changes last week [11:15] Ubit Umarov: a few minor changes on our wiki [11:15] Ubit Umarov: like on http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Mesh [11:15] Arielle Popstar: it is the small code changes  that make  for the most  discussion [11:15] Ubit Umarov: removing wrong reference to collada [11:16] Ubit Umarov: and making that acessible from main page ( via content creation ) [11:16] Ubit Umarov: since it was there without any reference to it [11:17] Ubit Umarov: same for the RC2 download [11:17] Ubit Umarov: now also visible from main page [11:17] Ubit Umarov: guess those where my major last contributions :) [11:18] Arielle Popstar: any one  have an idea  of  how  many grids  still on  .8.2  and  how  many  active  accounts on them? [11:18] Ubit Umarov: hmm did remove one or two null refs also [11:18] Arielle Popstar: suppose  Metro  the largest  of them [11:18] Arielle Popstar: Kitely [11:18] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: 3rd Rock is still on 8.2 [11:18] Arielle Popstar: digiworlds [11:19] Misterblue Waves: it takes friggen forever for meshes to load [11:20] Misterblue Waves: since so many avatars are going mesh, people are just floating parts until everything is loaded :) [11:20] Ubit Umarov: well and meshs here were done by aaack [11:20] Ubit Umarov: not the worse we can find on opensim :) [11:20] Arielle Popstar: i am still not so impressed  with  how  mesh works in the viewers [11:21] George Equus: Question: do the simulator still report is version? I use a statistic script (Arcadia's Simulator Statistics Indicator) but for the past three versions it does not give the version, The other info given still work. [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Misterblue. Nice to see you again. Some physics related topics came up the past couple of weeks when you weren't here. [11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Chatlog from Kitely meeting delivered -- If you did not get one, ask me [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You might need to recompile that script george [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I always run an extra command after building Open Sim to create a .version file that is used to state the version of code being used. [11:22] George Equus: done. no change Bill [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm [11:22] Misterblue Waves: I had a long talk with UBit yesterday... his complaint is that BulletSim does not handle PhysicsShapeType=CONVEX [11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: my stats scripts seem to be working, but I'll take a look when I get home to make sure .. [11:23] Misterblue Waves: I've added that to my list [11:23] George Equus: script apparently ubiquitous, just re used by Arcadia [11:23] Arielle Popstar: does not  handle? [11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( was a bit more than that MB.. but we didn't finished talking ;) ) [11:23] Misterblue Waves: http://blog.misterblue.com/2017/2017-08-07-Bullet-Version-Upgrade-And-Build-Tasks [11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeap : •generate convex shapes if PhysicsShapeType is set to CONVEX.. its bit more than just this [11:24] Ubit Umarov: but details.. [11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Thanks George, I'll look at that, I think I have one of those, but maybe different version .. [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, ToDo lists never seem to get that much shorter. [11:26] George Equus: I currently use sim posted Aug 6 but the error was introduced three versions back [11:26] Ubit Umarov: hmm what error ? [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: We were talking about a stats script not working right Ubit [11:27] Arielle Popstar: MisterBlue- is there  any intention to stop Bulletsim from using the viewable mesh for a collision map if  there is no Physics one  uploaded? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: hmm don't remember recent changes on that.. but well who knows.. [11:27] George Equus: Arcadia's Simulator Statistics Indicator top info on sim version do not display any more Ubit [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: OHHH [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I know what that is [11:28] Ubit Umarov: osslEnable changes ? [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: George, some dynamic texture things changed .. and that displays on dynamic textures [11:28] Ubit Umarov: IPs hiddin from non gods [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ubit broke dynamic textures ... LOL [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [11:28] Ubit Umarov: error that :) [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I don't have my prim stats script in this grid [11:28] Misterblue Waves: Arielle: I think BulletSim uses the physical mesh if one is specified... if it doesn't, that is a bug and, if you have a test case, I'd fix it [11:29] George Equus: Does not all info display on dyn textures?  the rest show fine [11:29] Ubit Umarov: she was asking about the use of visual LOD:. and i can answer.. bullet may have it as a option [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: George, do you know what call is being made in the script to get the OS version number? [11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Bullet does not appear to use a physics model even if one is provided ... but I have no bullet sims to test on anymore [11:29] Ubit Umarov: it will need to no do it, to proper suport  physics shape type changes and viewers [11:30] Arielle Popstar: if it  doesnt  then bullet  should  be reading it as  NONE or default to convex  vs  the .8.2 version where  it  used  the  viewable mesh? [11:30] George Equus: Andrew, I can't script so probably would not be able to figure that out :) [11:30] Misterblue Waves: let me check... but BUlletSim should use the physics mesh if supplied but fall back to the visual mesh if no physical mesh is supplied [11:30] Arielle Popstar: yes  fallback to visual [11:30] Misterblue Waves: the fallback was implmentented way before LL had finalized meshes [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are allowed to pass the script along I can have a look. [11:30] Ubit Umarov: bullet Switch on physics shape type is not that good .. is part of what me and MB talked and will talk more [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: George, ty [11:31] George Equus: apparently a common script around for a long time.. [11:31] Misterblue Waves needs a talking to :) [11:31] Arielle Popstar: LL still uses  some  fallback  to  visual on simple  meshes [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: George, it is using osGetSimulatorVersion. [11:31] Arielle Popstar: according to a  wiki  Ubit  sent me a link to [11:32] Ubit Umarov: but bullet does use a mesh if one is provided for physics [11:32] Ubit Umarov: ( ie if PRIM is there ) [11:32] Ubit Umarov: just if you play with changing physics shape type.. it will do odd things eventully [11:32] Arielle Popstar: Ok well  Bill  mentioned  in a recent  post that  it  falls back  to  visual  even if there is  a  file  provided [11:33] Ubit Umarov: that is OLD news [11:33] Misterblue Waves: I don't think BulletSim looks at the PhysicsShapeType variable at all.... that's the functionality that needs to be added [11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:34] George Equus: Here it seems to fail on all tapes... mine only the top most [11:34] Ubit Umarov: that was introduced with the merge with ubOde [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: George, that OSSL function is enabled for everyone by default so I don't see any immediate reason for it to have stopped working. [11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it was the changes to the dynamic textures that were made a few commits back that caused a lot of things with dynamic textures to not work .. [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. The script is throwing an exception due to the use of osGetSimulatorMemory. [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: George, that is the problem with the script. [11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Or I should say not work correctly .. [11:36] Ubit Umarov: lets be clear on changes in dyn textures i made a mistake [11:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit = Ubrokeit [11:36] Ubit Umarov: that can cause texture rotation offsets etc on prims to be lost [11:36] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002 chuckles [11:37] Ubit Umarov: if you did run that bug version, you need to review those settings on the prims [11:37] Ubit Umarov: even color :p [11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or rez a brand new copy from the original source [11:37] Ubit Umarov: or that [11:37] Ubit Umarov: fixing a bug. made another lol [11:37] George Equus: OK,. I was rather surprised only top didn't work, rather expected all to either work or not... [11:38] George Equus: will try to fix it with info given tonight :)  Thanks [11:38] Ubit Umarov: you can add a few llSay to see if ossl is getting the information [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: George, the osGetSimulatorMemory function is restricted (by default) to estate managers and estate owners. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: ie display the text you are sending to the dyn texture [11:39] Ubit Umarov: if ok.. then review that prim face texure settings [11:39] Ubit Umarov: bc yes.. i broke it :p [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm Ubit Umarov = Ubit Ubrokeitall [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [11:40] Ubit Umarov: this one of the things i did broken :p [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hehe [11:41] Ubit Umarov: dan found it immediatly :) [11:41] George Equus: Either this is an involuntary side effect due to a bug, or it is "by design" and script need to be modified...  All I can do is report the fact. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: from what i remember. at most osslEnable [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I use dynamic textures as part of a shopping mall directory sign. If dyn textures are (temporarily) broke that will be a problem for me. [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It was a bug introduced in a fix, and since has been fixed, but IF your item was rezzed and working during the bug, then it will not "fix itself" as it lost the params [11:42] Ubit Umarov: on ossl IPs where made visible only for gods [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: IPs?? [11:42] Ubit Umarov: yes Andrew user IPs [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. IP addresses. [11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: osGetAgentIP [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there was some recent discussion about that function. [11:43] Ubit Umarov: think osslEnable has comments about those [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It says -> functions ThreatLevel Severe with additional internal restrictions [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It also states restricted to Administrators. [11:45] Ubit Umarov: Administrators. means GODs [11:45] Ubit Umarov: we should ban the word GOD from all code [11:45] Ubit Umarov: bc it is not a culture neutral work [11:45] Ubit Umarov: for some it is a ABSOLUTE [11:46] Ubit Umarov: and we really don't need to be on that polemic [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if you changed that it would be a dependency between viewers and code, but in theory I agree .. [11:46] Ubit Umarov: ) work above was word ) [11:46] Ubit Umarov: well was a bad LL move [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: don't disagree [11:47] Ubit Umarov: they forgot cultural issues all around the world [11:47] Ubit Umarov: it is not a neutral word [11:47] Arielle Popstar: they should  have  used  lower  case  then? god [11:47] Ubit Umarov: possible.. better better not use at all [11:48] Ubit Umarov: bc we are actually talking about administrator rights.. not god [11:48] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are after all administrators not actual Gods [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm kind of partial to Overlord myself ... LOL [11:48] Arielle Popstar: it is descriptive in the  english  language  of  a  certain level of  ability [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Bill [11:48] Ubit Umarov: but well for most of us its just a word.. [11:49] Ubit Umarov: en is only part of the world [11:49] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: words are just that words, the human connotation attached to them is the issue. [11:50] Ubit Umarov: and i do type admin where in past ppl would type god [11:50] Ubit Umarov: that's the problem Leighton.Marjoram that is not for all [11:50] Ubit Umarov: for some there are absolutes [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: just make it HBIC (Head Bitch/Bastard In Charge) [11:50] Arielle Popstar: have to be politically  correct [11:50] James atLLOUD: I blame gamers [11:50] Ubit Umarov: and not words are not neutral [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you need auto-correct to save yourself some typing (ie. type god, autocorrect to admin) ;) [11:50] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: i thin Admin is the most widely used [11:50] Ubit Umarov: and some words [11:51] Ubit Umarov: actually even in christianity [11:51] Ubit Umarov: it is forbiden to use the name god [11:51] Arielle Popstar: not  god [11:51] Arielle Popstar: yahweh  maybe [11:51] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: its not politically correct to use the right word, Gods in Opensim are admins. The use of the word god is not necessary. [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes not god, only God ...  if you are so inclined [11:51] James atLLOUD: how about uberuser? [11:52] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:52] James atLLOUD: lol [11:52] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: kinda a moot point [11:52] Ubit Umarov: well just a detail [11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: as I said I am partial to Overlord or HBIC [11:52] Ubit Umarov: i did had a fight once bc of that [11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [11:52] Arielle Popstar: its like  why  worry about  it? [11:52] Ubit Umarov: bc it does matter actually [11:52] Arielle Popstar: no it doesnt [11:52] Arielle Popstar: only if  you  make an issue of it [11:52] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Because to some it is something to worry about ... [11:53] Ubit Umarov: YES IT Does Matter [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks grins [11:53] Ubit Umarov: it is a kind of fight opensim has no need to be in [11:53] Arielle Popstar: another principle? [11:53] Arielle Popstar: we have enough to fight  about :p [11:54] Ubit Umarov: sure a minor issue for all of us here [11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: and its one that can be sidestepped by just not using the word God, it is a loaded term and there are other more functional words without the cultural baggage. [11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Arielle to some people it matters very greatly, and many take offense to it ... [11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: then it doesnt exclude people [11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: over a simple word choice [11:54] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I have never used it [11:55] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I dont even know what it is [11:55] Arielle Popstar: Bill the Christian god's name is  Yahweh  or  jehovah. God is what he  is not his name [11:55] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: so / OH Well [11:55] Ubit Umarov: i even asked the opinion of a us pastor here at osg [11:55] Arielle Popstar: lets fight  about  mesh  or permissions [11:55] Ubit Umarov: his answer was clear.. it is wrong [11:55] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: and for him so it should be, it is sacred after all. [11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: might not be for me but being culturally sensitive doesnt hurt [11:56] Ubit Umarov: his what to call ? religion is just tolerant to uses other do of words [11:56] James atLLOUD: cows anyone? [11:56] George Equus: Admin is global in computing, meaning full rights and access to everything, isn't it? And perfectly neutral [11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @George [11:56] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. it is a issue so fix in time [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: George, or sometimes also referred to as the root user. [11:56] Arielle Popstar: depends how much breakage  comes  as a result  of  switching  the  name [11:56] George Equus: Not too keen on GOD either... [11:57] Ubit Umarov: it was a LL mistake... but lets go on [11:57] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is definitely a consideration @Arielle [11:57] George Equus: Was about to also include root as a possible word for this [11:57] George Equus: :)) [11:57] Arielle Popstar: i am opposed to linux  so  no roots [11:57] George Equus: Enough of this.. [11:58] George Equus: root beer maybe? [11:58] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Root Beer Float hmmmm [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other Open Simulator topics for today? [11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: most grids are opposed to Windows, soooooo that is not a valid argument ... LOL :P [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I missed out on the free root beer from a local fast food chain just over a week ago. [11:58] James atLLOUD: Maybe 'rick sanchez' will become a synonym for god [11:59] Arielle Popstar: only because  Linux  is cheaper  on hosts [11:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no not only, it is ONLY for people who don't understand Linux [11:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: i am not sure the price is the only reason [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: It isn't that Linux is cheaper. If you use Linux you don't have to pay the monthly fee to use Windows. [11:59] Arielle Popstar: cant be because of mono [11:59] Ubit Umarov: well and we fallen into another religion discussion lol [12:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Mono is fine, if you know what you are doing [12:00] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Grins @Ubit [12:00] Arielle Popstar: be doing  politicvs  next [12:00] Ubit Umarov: Linux/windows, cost aside is religion [12:00] Ubit Umarov: :p [12:00] Ubit Umarov: both are crap.. end of discussion [12:00] Ubit Umarov: lol [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, true. People are free to choose what they want to use.