Chat log from the meeting on 2016-08-09

[10:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi George. Lagging :-)) [10:58] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: For once I arrived first :) [10:58] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, much lag! [10:58] Sheera Khan: oh yes ... [10:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Heh, is that the latest build? [10:59] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: And Sit was acting up. could not sit on one at all, just stood straight up for a minute [10:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I built yesterday and deployed. and it is not lagging, except there is something about culling [10:59] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        a30f75c: 2016-08-07 21:13:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:00] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Think is this region only, just came from some heavy editing, linking unlinking hundreds of prims in one go, no problem [11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it a bit too slow ot fetch stuff, so when you round a corner, the avatar pause whole the scene is updating with items comming into view [11:00] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: What's "culling"? [11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: culling is it does not fetch object hidden by others [11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: less to render that way [11:01] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Ahh OK thanks [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: both the graphics card, the viewer logic and the server can do culling [11:03] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I was alone when arrived to region here and rezed immediately and could walk smoothly all the way here [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:04] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Lost some attachments, only one of those has turned up again... hoping will all return eventually...... happened after last outage [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry to hear that [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not lost anything since the big outage in 2014 [11:05] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: wrist watch, mesh feet, mesh trousers, specs... beard is bnly thing that work now again. [11:05] Ubit Umarov: Buaaaa im here again with empty cache lol [11:06] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Suppose Dan is still busy working with HDs... [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all ypur stuff went to /dev/null? [11:08] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Other than issue with attachments can't say I have any complaints right now :) [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm feeling a bit under the weather today so I'm not going to be able to stay for the meeting today. [11:08] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Sorry to hear that [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You can stay and talk amongst yourselves. [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Stay well and get better [11:09] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: tc Andrew [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ty. I think it was something I ate this morning that didn't agree with me. [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not good [11:10] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: At least wasn't something eating you not agreeing... [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I had forgotten it was Tuesday. I originally had a family meeting scheduled for today which meant I wouldn't have been here at all. [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins at George [11:10] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: 007 quote... [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: um... family outing [11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ah, ok. I didn't remember that one. One of the local TV stations has been running a couple of Bond movies a night over this past week. [11:12] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Don't remember what book is from right now,,, was a guy badies dumped in a shark tank [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I just upgraded a grid to the latest copy of git master as of a week ago Monday. It is getting more of a shakedown by the users. [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I built and updated yesterday [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs fine except it is a bit rough on culling perhaps [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you round a corner and new stuff comes into view, the avatar really stalls while the scene is updating [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, a quick search says it might be The Spy Who Loved Me. [11:14] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Could well be [11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hm... I thought the culling stuff wasn't in there yet. [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: boo [11:16] Dahlia Trimble is here to catch up on the drama :D [11:16] Ubit Umarov: what drama ? [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: culling stuff in this commit, http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=ff0ccf9c67e3840c39729e1ce9677b96e0cfd472 [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: whatever drama is current [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but Ubit knows all about what it does of course [11:16] Ubit Umarov: well i made it lol [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly ;-)) [11:17] Ubit Umarov: well it seems to be working [11:17] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: There are never any drama here ;) [11:17] Ubit Umarov: some freezes are now a bit less noticiable [11:17] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: or is.. [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: never? how boring :/ [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll see you all next week. Time to go see if I can manage anything to eat for lunch. [11:18] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi all, glad to be back. New job and I'm settling in. [11:18] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: my missing trousers maybe... [11:18] Ubit Umarov: ideia about hat culling is to reduce the number of prims viewers have in memory at a given time [11:18] Ubit Umarov: cost is more cpu load and net [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I feel it is a bit too aggressive [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: avatar really stalls while the scene is updating [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: once loaded it is much faster on next visit [11:20] Ubit Umarov: well that is caching [11:20] Ubit Umarov: textures etc [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:20] Ubit Umarov: first visit on a region is always a pain [11:21] Ubit Umarov: but culling is on a "testing" status [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure [11:21] Ubit Umarov: today i did some code also on a new prioritizer [11:21] Sheera Khan: does it have to be eabled in OpenSim.ini? [11:22] Ubit Umarov: considering the prims "area" [11:22] Ubit Umarov: well fail so far lol [11:22] Ubit Umarov: yes sheera.. disabled by default of course :) [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: btw I am running on mono 4.4.2 and the CPU issue is largely gone [11:23] Ubit Umarov: on cpu i made a mistake bte win/linux [11:23] Ubit Umarov: used something that should mean about 18ms but is 1ms on linux oops :) [11:24] Ubit Umarov: so there was a thread running full steam on idller regions [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ah, ok [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: glad you got that sorted [11:28] Ubit Umarov: how it the weather? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is like early October [11:28] Sheera Khan: changeable ... [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very windy, wet, cold [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: first snow in the mountains, and we are in the beginning of August [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for virtual weather FS have fixed theri clouds in the version they released last night [11:30] Sheera Khan: Oh, new clouds? [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, updating properly [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: I tried new firestorm last night, seems to work well [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: though it wiped out all my user/password stored info [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: which kind of sucks [11:31] Sheera Khan: yes, I'm using it atm... [11:32] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Always use it [11:32] Sheera Khan: it didn't do that with me :-) [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS is never a happy camper on my machines [11:32] Robert Adams: I just instaled the new FS before this meeting.... working fine for me so far [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the pie menu was cool [11:32] Sheera Khan: although I didn't test if voice still works in Linux [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its like animated now [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: kind of like pops out at you a bit [11:33] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: think 4.7.7 probably will be the last version, no work done for opensim version any more... [11:34] Sheera Khan: 4.7.9 is available for Linux [11:34] Sheera Khan: no Havoc support anymore though [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: what do you mean George? [11:35] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: FS team won't develop further on opensim version [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with LL dropping Linux support the effort keeping it will be much bigger [11:35] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: What I heard [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: did they say that specifically? [11:35] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: sad [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: realistically their opensim support was pretty non-existent for some time [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had not heard that but I can see why in case [11:36] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I picked it up somewhere some time ago, not sure if was from FS blog or "loose talk"... [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea I would say unelss they announce that on their blog [11:36] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: I understood FS had no developers focusing on opensim. Not an 'don't support' but no capacity to support. [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not worth buying in to that [11:37] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Could ask directly on one of FS class in SL [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yea, the only reason it seemed like Firestorm had an opensim support [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: had absolutely nothing to really do with opensim [11:37] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Jessica Lyon [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: they were forced to split versions so they could have better SL support [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it had nothing to do with making opensim support better [11:38] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Got the grid manager, lacking on SL version [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and that gets even more compounded as LL makes major changes to the SL code [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yes they couldnt offer Grid manager [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and keep the Havok DLLS included [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: they only made a opensim version to keep people from getting upset I think, they have never really shown a ton of interest in opensim [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: most of what is in firestorm came from other viewer teams [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: like Kokua and Singularity etc.. [11:39] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: So anyone have another favorite OS viewer? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim realted stuff anyway [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is nice [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and still being maintained [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We are hammering on the OS version of Kokua almost every day [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: they were just talking about a new release soon [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ya Kokua is good option still too [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: most of the differnces come down to the GUI though [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise they offer a similar experience [11:40] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I'll stick to FS, so far it works pretty well for me, never used any other viewer but briefly [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its just a matter of what you like in terms of how the GUI lays out [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yea Firestorm is till a viable option as well [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: no reason to stop using it [11:41] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Jessica Lyon recommended Alchemy many weeks ago on Mal's show. [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: yea Alchemy and Singularity are sister projects [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: anything in Alchemy is generally in Singularity [11:42] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: FS strong point is flexibility I suppose, can be configured to look like all the other viewrs... pie menu or not, eg [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I think Alchemy is more geared towards a particular grid project [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Alchemy is ratehr short on features compared to Singularity [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: though I am pretty sure it works on any grid [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yea I can't say I have used it [11:42] Ubit Umarov: just keep the damm map closed with fs 4.7.7 [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: all I know is almost everything that comes from Alchemy ends up in Singularity as well [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Alchemy is based on Singualrity code originally [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its a fork [11:43] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: But FS do need rather hefty hardware to run well, is heavy [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: I use Firestorm for Machinima [11:43] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok - good to know. I like the phototools in FS - don't know if that's in another viewer. [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: it has better shadows [11:43] vegaslon plutonian: sure you are not talking about replex? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and overall nicer graphics [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Replex is also a fork [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: both are based on Singularity code [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Alchemy is probabl not considered a fork anymore [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Replex is not maintained any more [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its its own project now [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but it came out of Singularity [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: they consider themselves sister projects [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i beleive it might even say that on the website [11:44] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: replex.org is for sale [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The Repex maintainer passed away [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: a Quote from singularityviewer.org [11:44] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: .oh. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: "we are also able to share code and prebuilt libraries with our sister project, Alchemy Viewer, this is highly beneficial as the development workload is now halved between our two projects." [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: I personally like Singularity for building [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and Firestorm for making movies and screenshots [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the version 1 UI is much more efficient for many things [11:46] Sheera Khan: I use Kokua too from time to time :-) [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea I havent used Kokua in a while, i should give it a go again [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what came after is kindoff like the QWERTY keyboard; designed to slow you down [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I used to use it a lot [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: give Kokua a spin [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: for a time I thought it was no longer being maintained [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but I think it just got really quiet hehe [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: was never really dead [11:47] Sheera Khan: I had to let it go quite a bit aga because of really heavy graphics glitches with my Intel HD3000 [11:48] Ubit Umarov: hmm the sl viewer did work ok at sl [11:48] Sheera Khan: but now it works again :-) [11:48] Ubit Umarov: long time since i had a run on it [11:49] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kokua blog has a 15jul update [11:49] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: http://blog.kokuaviewer.org/ [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I havent used stock SL viewer since they dropped support for -loginuri [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i swore id never load it on my PC again [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: latests Opensim builds are at https://sourceforge.net/projects/kokua.team-purple.p/files/Kokua-OS/ [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ive held to that oath [11:49] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Think where I picked it up on FS dev was HG business: "Meanwhile, the Firestorm team is heavily tilted towards Second Life support. “We don’t have a developer on our team who does OpenSim.”  http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2016/01/firestorm-lead-recommends-alchemy-viewer-for-opensim/ [11:49] Sheera Khan: but 4.0.2(38137) ist current still [11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeap petty i can use winproxy with it [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i just installed kokua [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: will try it again [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: there is a way to hexedit the exe [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let us know how it works [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: to use gridproxy [11:50] Robert Adams: the SL viewer never survived the UI mangle from years ago [11:50] Ubit Umarov: having to use tpvs to fix protocol is BAD [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately it was Latif who told me how to do that [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and I dont remember now how to [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: he had an app he wrote at some point [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it works anymore [11:51] Ubit Umarov: editing the xml [11:51] Ubit Umarov: doesn't work anymore [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if you use a hex editor you can find the loginuri string [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and replace it with grid proxy url [11:51] Ubit Umarov: i could change localhost.. but yeackk [11:52] Sheera Khan: @ George: when you cite that article you should point to the following letter too: [11:52] Sheera Khan: http://www.firestormviewer.org/open-letter-to-opensim/ [11:52] Ubit Umarov: i mean hosts file [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know hexedit method is only one that works correctly [11:52] Ubit Umarov: well yeap that 2 [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i think changing the hosts to localhosts would effect other LL services [11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's where Jessica corrects some misinterpretations made in the article you gave ^^ [11:53] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Missed that one Sheera, Thanks, reading.... [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yEA [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i think what most people dont realize [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: is when code shows up in 1 viewer [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it propegates to all the others [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: unless its something truly weird [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: which is rare due to the limitates LL has imposed on TPV teams [11:54] vegaslon plutonian: hmm my sl veiwer still lets me pick osgrid to login to [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: generally once something good happens in one project, the other projects eventually pick it up [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: really vegaslon? a new viewer? [11:55] Ubit Umarov: "But I am also pleased to say that since that interview we have already seen an increase in help and communication from a few grids. Littlefield has always been our strongest communicator, and the majority of our recent OpenSim bug fixes are a direct result of their efforts to work with us." [11:55] vegaslon plutonian: ya that is why I crashed I just installed sl viewer and it did not like singularity being open [11:56] Ubit Umarov: grrrrr [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya Ubit i hear your groan there lol [11:56] Ubit Umarov: does she see what is wrong with that ?? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: with the caveat being as long as your not a core dev [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem to like us much [11:57] Ubit Umarov: they where changin fs to work on THAT grid!!! [11:57] Robert Adams: we'll just have to work through proxies :) [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: Jessica is nice and helpful [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but like you said I dont think she is involved much anymore [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: I used to work with Tankmaster he was great [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but he got a job at intel and moved on [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: tanmaster was a Firestorm Dev and heavily involved in Kokua too [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: shame he isnt around anymore [11:58] Ubit Umarov: [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: with the caveat being as long as your not a core dev hmm ?? [11:58] George Equus: Very good news, and from the horses mouth. Thanks again Sheera. Jessica Lyon is always very helpful, nice person [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: oh the Firestorm devs, they just always seem very negative to us directly [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: like what happened to you on their Jira other day [11:59] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev       a30f75c: 2016-08-07 21:13:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I would love to work closer with them directly [11:59] Ubit Umarov: well jessica was nice to chat with [11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: always glad to be helpful ;-) [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: but i always feel like their first response to me is negative [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea Jessica is the exception [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: she is a diplomat though [12:00] Ubit Umarov: yeap [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I stopped even going to their IRC [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: because i felt like everytime i did i was basically told to shut up lol [12:01] Ubit Umarov: never seen talking there [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its been a while since i have [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: years ago [12:01] vegaslon plutonian: ok to use gridproxy you can create a grid.xml at "AppData\Roaming\SecondLife\user_settings" with this in it http://pastebin.com/b4PHrgc5 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped going [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: nice vegaslon [12:01] vegaslon plutonian: grids.xml actually [12:01] Ubit Umarov: vegas i tested that.. [12:01] Ubit Umarov: its ignored now it seems [12:02] vegaslon plutonian: you of course have to do the same steps in the veiwer you would to get on the beta grid [12:02] vegaslon plutonian: but it will show up in the list [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you log on to OpenSim with the SL viewer, there is a bunch of varaibles and settings for Opensim missing, so it will work, but not properly [12:02] Ubit Umarov: seems grids are now buried in code [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea really when it comes to viewers [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: try em all and use what you like [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:06] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: true true [12:07] Ubit Umarov: oops [12:07] Ubit Umarov: the xml did work [12:07] Ubit Umarov: nice [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ok i'll test winproxy with it later at sl [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: cool [12:11] vegaslon plutonian: crashed trying to login to osgrid with it though [12:11] Ubit Umarov: well that is understandable [12:11] Ubit Umarov: specially on a var region :) [12:11] vegaslon plutonian: yep [12:12] Ubit Umarov: but as i said SL is now a diferent enviroment [12:12] Robert Adams: there must be some '256's scattered through it [12:12] Ubit Umarov: they, correctlym optimized it for their setup [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ( httpipeline use is a minor example ) [12:14] Ubit Umarov: direct fetching of textures, meshs etc [12:14] Ubit Umarov: blabla [12:14] Ubit Umarov: even SSA makes sense to them [12:15] Ubit Umarov: not that much when a viewer rebake is a lot faster than ask for it to osgrid on the other side on atlantic :)