Chat log from the meeting on 2008-01-09

[11:13] You: I'll brb

[11:15] Teravus Ousley: :D

[11:15] Neas Bade: has there been an inventory reset?

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: That's the first time I've seen the console for this region, and it doesn't look so pretty

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: There was a problem while you were away and we had to regress to a backup which was a month old

[11:16] Neas Bade: ah, ok

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: there was no later backups - they hadn't been happening

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: remoting errors, surely.

[11:16] Teravus Ousley: .. though it's a debug mode message.. which apparently appears on the Mono console regardless

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: well, stacks of TEXTUREDOWNLOAD messages now

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: and the occsional exception which floats by

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: 95% of the messages are currently TEXTUREDOWNLOAD, understandable since everybody is, er, downloading lots of textures, I expect

[11:23] Neas Bade: ok, that's almost me :)

[11:24] Neas Bade: happy new year all!

[11:24] Teravus Ousley: happy new year, Neas :D

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: hny

[11:24] Neas Bade: I spent new years on a 28 hr train from Chennai to Calcutta, which is definitely hte most exotic place I've been for new years :)

[11:25] Teravus Ousley: hehe

[11:25] Kurt Stringer: heh, I spent it at 11,900 feet

[11:25] Kurt Stringer: fresh powder is sooo nice

[11:25] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. dogs need attending to, brb

[11:26] Neas Bade: where were you kurt?

[11:26] Neas Bade: CO?

[11:26] Kurt Stringer: colorado skiing - wolf creek this time

[11:26] Neas Bade: cool

[11:28] You: hello all

[11:28] You: lil quiet here

[11:29] Kurt Stringer: well, how about scripting discussion?

[11:29] You: ok is there anything that can be done in our end to block the texture steal

[11:30] You: SL has this problem and apparently we do too

[11:30] You: something in the browser + Script

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: what is texture stealing?

[11:31] You: there a script running around in LSL at the moment

[11:31] You: that can take the uuid of a texture on a prim

[11:31] You: (even though you have no perms)

[11:32] You: and then make it available to u

[11:32] You: a resident tester on openlife tried this and it worked for him there too

[11:32] Neas Bade: that doesn't surprise me all that much. security has never been very tightly designed with the protocol

[11:33] You: not being the owner of a prim you shouldn't be able to take the texture or get it's uuid

[11:33] You: unless u have perms or are the owner

[11:33] Kurt Stringer: I have only seen a check in delete

[11:33] You: I'll use my other console to see if he's around and grab it to demonstrate

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: Well, also the perms are not really in that well right now

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: .. we've got *some* perms

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: maybe like 20% of the SL functionality

[11:34] Teravus Ousley: maybe like 15%

[11:34] Neas Bade: what are the chances of getting "Locked" to work any time soon :)

[11:35] Neas Bade: I'd love to be able to possition lock things

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, was just trying to close the small gap I saw :D

[11:35] Teravus Ousley: I'm sure I can get locked to work from the client perspective.. and probably the server perspective also.. with some tweaking

[11:35] Neas Bade: especially as we don't have physics working with linked prims

[11:36] Teravus Ousley: locked checkbox status gets sent via the objectpermissions packet anyway

[11:36] Neas Bade: ok

[11:36] Teravus Ousley: I've just been focusing on the messageServer for a few days

[11:36] Neas Bade: I was also noticing all the profile related packets. It would be nice to get more of that into the user tables for storage in the not to distant future.

[11:37] Neas Bade: my personal focus is going to be de-crufting the db stuff over the next couple of weeks, as the cruft level is high there

[11:37] Neas Bade: lbsa, you said you have some good dynamic query base code laying around?

[11:37] Neas Bade: I'd like to look at that if possible to see if that fits

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: yes, if you could also make a simple way for us to 'version' all tables, that would be awesome.. as to update the prims table, is a bit of a hack currently

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: :D

[11:38] Neas Bade: yeh, that's definitely got to be in the cards as well

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: there are version numbers on some tables

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: That's probably one reason it doesn't contain all of the necessary fields..

[11:38] Neas Bade: yeh, but the version numbers on some of the tables don't seem to work all that well

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, now I look, those versions numbers are in comment fields, at least in mysql

[11:39] Neas Bade: I'm sure there is a workable solution here, will just require a bit of thought

[11:40] Neas Bade: I think that perhaps if we had a versions table in each data source that might be best

[11:40] Teravus Ousley: hmm, the other thing about locked that's tricky.. is when you lock a prim, you can't move it.. and since it isn't moved, it won't be stored to the database 'locked'

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: can the lock not trigger the database store?

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: oh sorry

[11:40] Neas Bade: it won't today, but that's an artifact I think

[11:41] Teravus Ousley: just something to think about. Sit target doesn't store to the database either unless the prim is moved.

[11:41] Neas Bade: ok, that is something we should make work as well

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: Shouldn't it be possible to make such changes switch the HasChanged boolean in SceneObjectGroup?

[11:42] Teravus Ousley: possible, I have not studied the backup mechanism yet though.. so if that's all it is.. it shouldn't be too difficult

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Yes, that's pretty much it - I'm doing the same thing for prim inventory changes

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Possibly slightly overkill, but I think that can be fixed up later

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: the major gunk on the message server.. is making it multi-threaded with respect to the requests it makes to other sims and what not.

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: .. so I'm splitting up the work into work groups.. that get processed on a thread

[11:45] Teravus Ousley: .. note that these are just 'notify X region that user Y has changed status to Z

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. of course the notifications are also sent out by figuring out which users are online and where they are currently

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. and where their friends are

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. it's not complicated conceptually, however implementation side, it's a little bit

[11:48] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so I'm just gonna blurb out stuff as I read it

[11:48] Stefan Andersson: the TEXTUREENTRY thing can be safely removed

[11:48] Stefan Andersson: it was a help in debugging a serious bandwith issue

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: Would be good, it's a bit spammy on the console now

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: Can someone tell me the justification of InnerScene? I'm sure there is one - I just haven't worked out what it is yet

[11:50] Teravus Ousley: I don't know the original justification for it.. however, it's purpose in my mind is to encapsulate communications between the scene and it's parts.. (objects, avatars.. etc)

[11:50] You: I missed a fair bit there... but I worked out a method to fix the texture steal... but it may inhibit other applications

[11:50] Stefan Andersson: Neas, Yes, I have it here; I can like zip it up and send it to you - might be some biths of interest

[11:50] Stefan Andersson: (sql classes)

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, thanks Teravus

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: Sakai, what is that?

[11:51] Neas Bade: ok, need to run off to this other meeting. Catch you all later

[11:51] You: seeya Neas

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: bye neas

[11:51] Teravus Ousley: take care Neas

[11:52] Stefan Andersson: Sakai it's even worse; with libsl you can just export any texture as tga. No security whatsoever; the problem is, textures are shared (And has to be) so, I need to be able to download textures to see them.

[11:52] You: the texture steal is done by grabbing the uuid int eh debug output menu in the browser, then using that uuid with the llSetTexture Command

[11:52] You: yes but libsl can grab all sorts

[11:52] You: hehe

[11:52] You: SL had the same issue with Animations

[11:53] You: and they changed it by requiring the animation to be in the prim inventory

[11:53] You: you could do the same with texture

[11:53] You: but i think it might inhibit other applications of calling textures

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure how that would help. Won't inventory items still point to assets? Anyway, as stefan says, it all sounds a bit acadaemic as long as libsl can just pull down textures

[11:54] You: i personally think perhaps textures should be treated much like the web

[11:54] You: it's up to you to chase copyright

[11:55] You: but a few residents asked me this in the last meeting

[11:55] You: so i figured I'd throw it out there just in case

[11:55] Stefan Andersson: Sakai that is the only viable stance

[11:56] Kurt Stringer: agreed

[11:56] You: I think so too, can';t chase a webhost if someone steals ur website pics

[11:56] You: the other one that came up was the sit

[11:56] You: if you do it whilst walking i think 2 things conflict

[11:56] You: ODE &amp; collisions

[11:56] You: and the scene trying to make u sit

[11:57] You: so you seem to jolt back and forth

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: heh, client autopilot

[11:57] Stefan Andersson: Like the web, we will move from form as commodity to function as commodity; the same will happen here.

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: it isn't designed for the speed that we do things in opensim

[11:57] Cancelled Sit

[11:57] Teravus Ousley: .. we actually fly and move a lot faster in OpenSim then in LLSL

[11:58] You: i think I'm too dislexic to work out how to do it!

[11:59] You: is there a short cut to sit?

[11:59] Teravus Ousley: so, at the moment, my suggestion would be to get within 3m of the object you're going to sit on.... I put in code that makes it so if you're close, the autopilot won't kick in

[11:59] You: where does the 2 different target locations come from?

[11:59] You: ie. first time sit is very off

[11:59] You: second time sit and 3rd and 4th is always the same and closer

[12:00] Teravus Ousley: it tends to come from the client .. though, we make modifications to it's recommended spot or it'd be even worse

[12:01] You: also is the sit rotation based relative to the avatar?

[12:01] You: not the prim rotation in world?

[12:01] Teravus Ousley: Yes, it's zero rotation on that, at the moment, unless you add a sit target with an explicit rotation

[12:01] You: i noticed 3 different people couild sit on a prim

[12:01] You: and all end up with a different rotation result

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: nifty hmm?

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: hehe

[12:02] You: hehe

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: well, likely the client is recommending some things that we're saying 'okay' and probably shouldn't

[12:02] You: possibly it may have to do with the auopilot part

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: however, until there's a better way to supply the sit location to the client, it's going to be problematic

[12:03] You: true

[12:03] Teravus Ousley: .. the best way to get a better way to supply the sit location would be get the ray tracer working :D

[12:04] Teravus Ousley: I may be able to provide an interface with ODE, however, none of the other physics engines have a ray tracer built in.

[12:04] You: Did anyone see some of the little bugs I posted in mantis that arrived recently?

[12:04] You: like the dropping the last letter

[12:04] You: of the prim name on take to inventory?

[12:05] Teravus Ousley: I saw that.. but it's not my area :D

[12:05] You: mate I KNOW your busy

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah I saw that, it's in my queue

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: mental queue, that is

[12:05] You: hehe kewl

[12:05] You: I'm not sure all the Mantis are supposed to end up with you Teravus

[12:06] Teravus Ousley: today pretty much is my SL meeting day.. (tuesdays) as I tend to spend the time that i would be working on OpenSim.. in meetings.

[12:06] Kurt Stringer: speaking of - I am out of time, off to another mmeing...

[12:06] Kurt Stringer: meeting too

[12:06] You: hehe

[12:07] You: meeting day

[12:07] Teravus Ousley: ok, take care Kurt :D

[12:07] Kurt Stringer: bye all

[12:07] You: Ciao Kurt

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Kurt

[12:07] You: I ahve another one for child agents too

[12:07] You: if a client spends too long in the upload window

[12:07] You: then the child agents drop out

[12:07] You: and regions go red

[12:08] Stefan Andersson: bye

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: yep, we need to start listening to the AgentPause and AgentResume packet

[12:08] You: i'll drop that one in MAntis too

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: properly listening to those will resolve that uploadbox + time = red sims

[12:08] You: :)

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: nice to see animations, by the way.

[12:09] You: yes :)

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: I think Chi11ken did much of the work on that.

[12:09] You: already ppl have started building clubs in the openlife

[12:10] You: a big public thanx to ch11ken then!

[12:10] You: how far along is the remote script server?

[12:10] Teravus Ousley: Is tedd here?

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: newp

[12:11] You: hmm small crowd today,,,

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: .. he's probably the only one who will be able to tell you.

[12:11] You: ya

[12:11] Stefan Andersson: yeah; and I gotta run now... take care, all

[12:11] You: see'ya

[12:11] Teravus Ousley: take care lbsa

[12:11] You: we're about to post an ad for a developer

[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: bye

[12:12] You: anything more than C# / DB (mysql) that you could think of that would be really handy?

[12:12] You: (we're chasing a .net C# dev so far)

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: hmm.. knowledge of SecondLife a plus

[12:12] Teravus Ousley: :D

[12:12] You: hehe yes to a degreee

[12:13] You: knowledge of opensim would be really kewl too... but unlikely to find for the moment

[12:13] You: hopefully we can grab someone to start full time before months end

[12:13] Teravus Ousley: * must not have any outstanding non-compete agreements with Linden Lab

[12:14] You: true

[12:14] Teravus Ousley: That was a joke

[12:14] Teravus Ousley: :D

[12:14] You: but that would only be ex-staff

[12:14] You: and here in Aus

[12:14] You: they don't apply

[12:14] You: I think

[12:14] You: unless you pay a retainer??

[12:14] You: or as a business sale...

[12:15] You: how much traffic do you think the new IM server could handle?

[12:16] Teravus Ousley: There's no way to know, as I've not started implementing that portion yet. Just currently doing the presence notifications

[12:16] You: nice everyone likes those...

[12:17] You: I was hoping some time in the future to whip up a .net page to chat externally

[12:17] You: without a libsl login

[12:18] You: do you think that would be too complex with this new server?

[12:18] You: (ie perhaps a nice Ajax container)

[12:18] Teravus Ousley: you'd still have to authenticate with the user server.. however.. once you got past that hurdle, XMLRPC could be used.

[12:19] You: authenticate... to let it know the client is online?

[12:19] You: or you mean just to tie the form to the uuid?

[12:19] Teravus Ousley: yep. I suppose you could simulate an XMLRPC request from the User server to the message server assuming you had the appropriate keys

[12:20] You: because we can know the friends uuids

[12:21] Teravus Ousley: The key here would be making a script or something that receives XMLRPC requests.. and then sends them to the appropriate region.

[12:22] Teravus Ousley: .. I think probably the message server except for group IMs will be out of the equasion for 'actual' IM messages. it will, however inform the regions where users are.. that are on the friend list of the people currently in the simulator

[12:22] You: hmm so we'd have to send the message to the region

[12:22] Teravus Ousley: the simulators will then make sim to sim messages for IMs

[12:23] You: rather than going through the message server

[12:23] Teravus Ousley: That's the only realistic way to do it and give it the ability to scale

[12:23] Teravus Ousley: the message server essentially becomes an informer about the location and status of avatar... with exception to group messages

[12:24] Teravus Ousley: group messages will have to go through the message server most likely

[12:24] You: ok I'll cut n paste all that for reference

[12:24] Teravus Ousley: k, I've got another meeting to go to, so I'll see you later :D

[12:25] You: np see'ya teravus thanx for the explanation

[12:25] Teravus Ousley: tc