Chat log from the meeting on 2020-07-07

[11:01] Ada Radius: Hi Kayaker, Hi Gavin

[11:01] Ada Radius: :)

[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:01] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew

[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit just said that Dev Outreach is back.

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: shall we move?

[11:02] Ada Radius: I do like the drinks

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's try it. We can come back here if we have problems.

[11:03] Kayaker Magic: It is nice sometimes to be able to rez demo scripts...

[11:03] Ada Radius: k

[11:03] Kayaker Magic: And I do have my favorite chair here.

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope we don't miss anyone who isn't used to looking for us here if we aren't in the backup location.

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Does anyone have Arielle Popstar on their friends list?

[11:04] Ada Radius: yes, she's not logged in

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Not me.

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: If you see her arrive, let her know about the venue change.

[11:05] Ada Radius: yes

[11:05] Ada Radius: and Selby, I don't see him here, but I'm not sure if I have his OSGrid login friended, if he has one

[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think he is logged on

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: well, apparently this region may be about to be restarted. Bill is doing some updates to this region. I think we will need to stick to Hurliman Plaza for today.

[11:06] Ada Radius: OK back we go

[11:07] Kayaker Magic: How is Bill doing?

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: better

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, well. Here we are back where we started. At least we got a little bit of exercise. ;)

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Good to hear!

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: even updated dev outreach toady

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to hear Bill is improving.

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: guess next week we can be back there

[11:08] Ada Radius: Hi Ubit

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ada

[11:09] Ada Radius: Hey Andrew

[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Well, I'll break the ice

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... Bill is online.

[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: talk about ice, we had snow multiple places in Norway the last 2 days

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Kayaker.

[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: In the viewers, when are files like avitar_skeleton.xml read? At compile time or at run startup time.

[11:10] Ada Radius: ouch. Why I left New England decades ago. Snow in summer.

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: need to clear viewer cache, brb ( i hope)

[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when the viewer starts

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin: Hey, none of those four letter words if you don't mind, particularly that one beginning with s and ending in w. ;)

[11:11] Kayaker Magic: So if I edit that file to make all avatar arms longer, it will take effect and everyone's knuckles will drag on the ground?

[11:12] Kayaker Magic: (only in my view)

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Bill. Good to see you again.

[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you edit the file in the viewer, only you will see ot

[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it

[11:12] Ada Radius: Hi Bill

[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Bill

[11:12] Bill Blight: Howdy

[11:12] Bill Blight: I think outreach is possesed

[11:12] Kayaker Magic: I ask because Ada has reported bugs in that file, like left and right values not matching, and nobody ever fixes it.

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to use joint displacement to make all see it when you create and upload the avatar

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: wb Bill

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if there are bugs in the file report it so LL

[11:13] Ada Radius: that's without changing avatar_skeleton.xml, though, just editing the armature will do it

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: everyone source the file from them and they have to QA any changes

[11:14] Kayaker Magic: The avatar armature overrides the xml file?

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Then why does the xml file exist at all?

[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a templace for the default avatar

[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: templage

[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: template even

[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:15] Bill Blight: brb gonna go check something

[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and for the default armature

[11:16] Kayaker Magic: So where is the avatar armature loaded from?

[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to upload overrides when you uploda your mesh

[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise it is assuming the default

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: errr armature overrides values

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: not the definitions

[11:17] Ada Radius: this is asking about the default, not rigged mesh uploads

[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I thought we were not allowed to upload new system avatars.

[11:17] Ada Radius: we are not

[11:17] Kayaker Magic: Mesh avatars are clothing.

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: "errors" in the default needs to be fixed by LL

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: the avatar is definde on the viewers xml files

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: defines

[11:17] Ada Radius: so no one is interested in improving on LL for OS?

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: meshes DO not override those

[11:18] Ada Radius: (as LL has never shown any interest in fixing the bugs in avatar_skeleton.xml)

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and avatar lad or something

[11:18] Ada Radius: yes

[11:19] Kayaker Magic: I'm confused, if I am not alowed to replace the default avatar mesh, then how does the avatar skeliton.xml get overwritten?

[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since they happen to the the authoritative source of the file, it is not bugs, but features

[11:19] Ada Radius: snort

[11:19] Ada Radius: OS needs to fork off to make any progress then.

[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have fun Ada

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: those things are viewer side

[11:20] Ada Radius: I know they're viewer side.

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: i would like a improved ruth (system avatar )

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: to reduce the need for meshes

[11:20] Ada Radius: OK, so three of us here like the idea :)

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: it is a far superior systeme

[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Majority rules!

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: but it is 100% viewer side

[11:21] Ada Radius: the part that is not viewer side is the server reading the viewer data and making it visible to other viewers

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: on that regions almost just send what they get

[11:21] Ada Radius: and that could use improvement - just displaying the orange cloud with no other data is more than frustrating

[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem Ada is a) there is nobody in the viewer dev community who are capable of designing, testing and debugging such chges both on the default avatar, the morph targets and the rnederer

[11:21] Kayaker Magic: So the default avatar mesh is in an XML file that is loaded at viewer start time? What format is that? Is it Colada or some LL specific format?

[11:21] Ada Radius: I know how to do the mesh, avatar, and morph targets. I am not a coder.

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: yeah making all those morphs etc

[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you b) can fork up the million dollkars that is requiored to HIRE someone for the job, be my guest

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: that is the worse part :)

[11:22] Ada Radius: morphs are not difficult. Same as shape keys in Blender

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: code is adding selection and remake the bakes code

[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so your best bet is file a JIRA with LL

[11:22] Ada Radius: first thing would be to get away from Maya-based, to open source Blender, where if needed we could find a Java programmer to make plugins.

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: the way that viewer code is made, most things will just work

[11:23] Kayaker Magic: I thought Blender needed a Python programmer?

[11:23] Ada Radius: yes, python

[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: if we feed in fixed xml files and the new assets

[11:23] Ada Radius: so we'd need someone who speaks python

[11:24] Ada Radius: I am no programmer, but I can edit the avatar_skeleton.xml file and the lad file yada yada. With help to make sure I don't do dumb stuff.

[11:24] Ada Radius: I started a spreadsheet yesterday...

[11:25] Ada Radius: it's at the RuthAndRoth github, buried under References > armatures. I asked Austin to redo some of the folder structure to allow for a new project. If we can find enough people willing to work on it.

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: well about code changes

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: nothing much

[11:25] Ada Radius: Hi Selby

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: just uglysky is now part of master

[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ni everyone

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: (so the branch is now dead )

[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi

[11:26] Kayaker Magic: I'm running master+uglysky on one of my OSGrid regions already!

[11:26] Ada Radius: So if you had a new avatar_skeleton.xml, maybe called Ruth3 or something, you could add it to the viewer code?

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: me??

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ahh him :)

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby

[11:27] Ada Radius: anyone

[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is already way too much to do to even keep the viewer running, so no

[11:28] Ada Radius: I'm willing to do the stuff programmers don't do - the mesh, armature, morphs. It's a lot of work, not worth doing without programmers who are interested. Totally worth doing in that people in our worlds are probably more passionate about their avatars than they are about viewer interfaces, though that's essential too.

[11:28] Kayaker Magic: I imagine making a new skeliton.xml, a new avatar mesh, make them compatible with the system one (same names, UV map etc) and just swapping them out for the files already there. No changes necessary.

[11:29] Kayaker Magic: *no changes necessary in the code)

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the xml files need to keep same format etc

[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it the uv map is the same it is pointless

[11:29] Ada Radius: I'd want to change bone names and the uv map

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: and bumpmap :)

[11:29] Ada Radius: and the mesh bits. I've already made a head

[11:29] Ada Radius: a draft of a head :)

[11:29] Ada Radius: bumpmap is easy

[11:30] Ada Radius: if one has Substance Painter, which I do

[11:30] Kayaker Magic: Bone name changes require changing 1E6 changes to the code, LL will not go for that.

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: viewer side the harder is update the backes code

[11:30] Ada Radius: LL is not going to go for any of this. This would be an OS fork.

[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: changing bone names will just screw up all existing content

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: ll likes the mesh business

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: names must stay the same

[11:31] Ada Radius: so will changing the UV maps. But we could make something good enough that people could log in for the first time and make a decent avatar immediately

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: most things on those files must stay the same actually

[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Bone name changes would be such a big change, we could never use upgrades from LL again.

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: it should be a option on graphics

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: bones names etc must stay the same, or all will break

[11:32] Ada Radius: The bone names are part of the problem - inconsistent naming for left and right. Makes it quite difficult to rig in any software. Many of us create our own armatures with better names, then switch back to LL's horror to import.

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: yeah, but need to stay

[11:33] Ada Radius: it's just a name change - are the bone names server side as well?

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: or all animations, meshes etc will just break

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: no they are defined on those files

[11:34] Ada Radius: ya, true. This would have to be in addition to to current system avatar. A gradual shift.

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: and creators of avatars and animations must use those

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: and do that since ever

[11:34] Ada Radius: if you had ever rigged anything, you'd know why LL suks and we need a better system.

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: in fact those files could just stay almost as they are

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only chance of accomodating such a thing is to allow user defined skeletons

[11:35] Ada Radius: We could give them an industry-standard skeleton, even give them the wings, tail, groin yada yada.

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that requires major changes to the viewer code, the renderer and the animation system

[11:36] Ada Radius: where is the renderer - in the viewer or the server code?

[11:36] Kayaker Magic: Nobody understands how the render works.

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: the avatars code seems verey versatil

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: but has limits :)

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does not Bento have wings, tails, groin

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: visulparameters.. gezz what a mess they did on those

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: they are just bytes

[11:37] Ada Radius: yes it does. In an ideal world, we would want mesh for female, male and a quadruped. But even so, I know how to make a female mesh that would morph to male, only with far better topology.

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: meaning is by order they show up on the xml

[11:37] Kayaker Magic: The renderer is deep in the viewer Ada. Down in the spaghetti code that nobody touches.

[11:37] Ada Radius: because no one knows how?

[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Because the people who wrote it left LL long ago.

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL has hired people to completely rewrite the renderer

[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Recently?

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: eep took them what 3 years?

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a few months back

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the macOS version there is only one option: Metal

[11:38] Ada Radius: ya, leaving us stuck with armature and system mesh that wasn't much good in 2005. Now it's laughable

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are looking at other options for Windows

[11:39] Ada Radius: except I think the slider system is brilliant - people love to modify their avatars

[11:39] Ada Radius: it needs updating - no one uses some of it, and some areas could use more detail

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ada, they have actually updated the skeleton quite a bit with Bento over the original. It took them ages to complete and with massive input and feedback from SL creators

[11:40] Kayaker Magic: You can thing of so many wonderful ways to keep programmers busy Ada! :)

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)

[11:40] Ada Radius: I know this armature quite well. Bento was slapped on top of the 2005 and the 2012 armature, leaving all the old bad stuff intact.

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this is NOT the time to add new skeletons

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for backward compatibility

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: skeleton is not first issue

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: imagine the outroar if old stuff just broke

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that would be better look

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: to reduce the need for meshed avatars

[11:42] Ada Radius: left-right asymetries, bone ends that don't match the bone head position of the next connected bone. Collision volumes used for sliders when regular bones are better.

[11:42] Ada Radius: (as with Bento face bones)

[11:42] Ada Radius: I agree that Bento additions are competently done. Medhue had a lot to do with that.

[11:43] Bill Blight: Ok Dev outreach should be fixed now ...

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Bill.

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great

[11:43] Ada Radius: OK I'm done. If a programmer gets interested in this, I'm happy to work on the stuff programmers don't do - armature, mesh, morphs

[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Thanks Bill! Good to see you again!

[11:44] Bill Blight: Have I mentioned that moving sucks ....

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: as we said that is 99% viewer side

[11:44] Ada Radius: I know

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ada, right now programmers are focused on even keeping viewers running

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( i took 1% for regions :p )

[11:44] Ada Radius: I know

[11:44] Kayaker Magic: What about my evolutionary approach: Small changes to the skeliton and avatar mesh on the viewer with NO CHANGES to the names?

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: as i said issue is not skeleton

[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we could probalby remove the gastly hair mesh

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: its the looks

[11:45] Ada Radius: That's a good idea. Can we do it in a way that would allow for name changes later?

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ie improve the basic meshes and auxiliar things

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: skeloton can't be changed

[11:46] Bill Blight: Going to be right back to the issue when People were using non-bento viewers, if everyone is not on the same version of the skeleton things would get weird ... I think ..

[11:46] Ada Radius: fix the bugs in avatar_skeleton - the mismatches

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: bento is a ADD_TO not a replacement

[11:46] Kayaker Magic: Push small changes back to LL, eventually in all viewers.

[11:46] Ada Radius: yes, if someone came up with a viewer that had a hot new system avatar, that would cause ripples. Not everyone is up for ripples, true

[11:47] Bill Blight: Could you do a push of the xml like we do for syntax?

[11:47] Ada Radius: what Ubit said - Bento was slapped onto a bad armature.

[11:47] Bill Blight ducks before Ubit throws something at me

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: guess ripples, only on SL mesh avatar creators :)

[11:47] Ada Radius: whom I don't care about

[11:47] Ada Radius: I care about OS

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ada it so happens that 98% of the viewer code comes from LL

[11:48] Ada Radius: so I hear

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: we could provide those files as we do syntaxe

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but no point

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you wan to make drastic changes, you have to staff up a full time dev department

[11:48] Ada Radius: much of the server code came from LL as well

[11:48] Ada Radius: ya true

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: no it did not

[11:49] Ada Radius: originally

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: no

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: never

[11:49] Ada Radius: really?

[11:49] Kayaker Magic: Reverse engineered

[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was reverse engineered by IBM and many others

[11:49] Ada Radius: I thought LL released it

[11:49] Bill Blight: Not to mention viewers have to agree with the changes, which, has a snowballs chance in hell

[11:49] Ada Radius: ah

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: ll servers code is closed

[11:49] Ada Radius: I was lied to

[11:49] Ada Radius: not the only time, lol

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: even during several years opensim devs could not look to viewers code

[11:50] Bill Blight: Opensim is a hatchet job, on the best of days ... :P

[11:50] Ada Radius: just researching what the viewer does now with avatars has been an adventure of misinformation. I made a spreadsheet analyzing it.

[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 spits coffee all over the keyboard

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: in part a reason to the use of libraryOpenMetaverse

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: those did look to viewers code

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: even used some xml files from viewers

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: like the messages template

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: llupd encode and decode is created from those files

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well what more opensim news Andrew ?

[11:53] Kayaker Magic: 

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: well as i said, uglysky is now part of main master code

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: lets see how people cry :)

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what's the crying about Ubit?

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: lets wait and see :)

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: guess 95% of people just uses local fixed sky, so no changes for those

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: AH Beq did fix that bad parameter validation for opensim

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why do you guess that?

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: on fs

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: density multipler i think

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ll code was breaking several "looks" for no good reason

[11:58] Kayaker Magic: I'm working on a patch to OpenSim that detects old polling AOs and disables them to decrease lag.

[11:58] Kayaker Magic: (I don't expect Ubit to accepet it)

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: good guess :p

[11:59] Ada Radius: @Ubit why?

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: just not possible to detect those

[11:59] Kayaker Magic: My approach is to detect calls to lLGetAnimationList comming in too fast, then set the timer on the calling script to 0.

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: (without false detection i mean )

[12:00] Ada Radius: what would a false positive break?

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: the respective script, sure

[12:00] Kayaker Magic: It causes the timer in the calling script to stop, can be restarted.

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: main issue on some it how they attach to collision event

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: that is heavy

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you are just going to stop people's AOs?

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: It could affect a lot of scripts that use timers for something other than AOs

[12:01] Ada Radius: I'd like that. Anyone who has ever run events would like scripted AO

[12:01] Ada Radius: s to disappear

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: well kayaker was right, i wll not accept such a patch ;)

[12:01] Kayaker Magic: I'm surveying popular AOs to see how it works, writing one that uses CHANGED_ANIMATION instead.

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Scripted AOs are ok if done properly. There is an event that is triggered for animation change. No need to use a timer to keep checking if the animation needs to be changed.

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: i made changes to mk ubode stronger on that

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: will tey more

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: try

[12:02] Ada Radius: Kitely will likely be interested, only they'll make it proprietary

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: Most that I see around the Metaverse are the ZHAO script.

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: gezz love people not reading :p

[12:02] Ada Radius: They already do stuff in this direction - I've gotten many WTF IM's from Ilan when I imported an old script that was nasty.

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: it is not timer.. it is collison event

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, there are several others. I would have to look up the names of the other ones I have that also use timers.

[12:03] Kayaker Magic: With different user interfaces, different lists of animation, but all the same "engine" script.

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: that is triggered very fast, by design

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and there are viewer AOs and even region side AO

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ( no idea of its current state )

[12:04] Ada Radius: (I was reading)

[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, viewer AO is the best solution. But convince 10,000 people to throw out their bad AO and learn something new?

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: region side one does naturally detect the motion changes

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: it just does not have swim

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: and under water

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well guess i could add those

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but confusing

[12:06] Ada Radius: if they would read a notecard, people would be more willing to transition from Zhao

[12:06] Ada Radius: (I know, not gonna happen)

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: i did reduce a but the impact zhao was having at lbsa ( and everywhere )

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: .. a bit ..

[12:07] Ada Radius: how many zhao's can run in a sim without crashing it?

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: also at a place like lbsa, ppl was suposed to sit :)

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: but nahh all love to stand there

[12:08] Ada Radius: yup. people are people

[12:08] Kayaker Magic: How could I disable collisions from llGetAnimationList in the sever code? Just looking for suggestions...

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: well at RL i do sit whenever i can :)

[12:08] Ada Radius: they want to wear expensive things and be seen at events and not be told what to do

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ( guess andrew is about to look to clock )

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, found some of the names. Casper AO, Maxping AO, Orion's AO.

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well play with uglysky ( ie eep ) on master and let us know

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I have them in an IAR. Not sure if all of those use timers or not.

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: singu will not update enviroment if anyone changes it on region

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: fs and dayturn will

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: current viewers should keep seeing identicla things..

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Found the name I was really looking for. The father of most of the AO's that I've seen floating around are based on the Franimation AO.

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: just the 3/1 night day may turn into 1/1

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: if setting env from a xml

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Yes, it is getting to that time of day.

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Franimation is ancient

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it is, Gavin.

[12:11] Kayaker Magic: Yeah ZHAO is based on Franimation/

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: estate time, fixed sun, and forgot what on region/estate are gone

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: will do nothing on the viewers that still show it

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: ( some wl ones already don't, since that is long gone at sl )

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: those things are now controled on the daycycles

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: did add new things on the ossl wiki

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSL_Implemented

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. ZHAO is based on Franimation 1.8

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and sent a email to our mail lists

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: well some emails

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/pipermail/opensim-users/

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: A reminder to everyone: Bitbucket is in the process of removing all Mercurial repositories, so if you need them, make sure to clone elsewhere

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ...while they last

[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I never used Hg except for one project I knew of that used it but I haven't touched it in ages.

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all viewer code since ages (SVN) was in HG

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus all the supporting libs

[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at 15 minutes past the hour. Any last minute items for todays meeting?

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: ( another ll poor choice lik jpeg2k etc )

[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There was a new macOS version of Dayturn last week with a significantly updated internal web-browser and MOAP support

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: where fun new things back then..

[12:18] Kayaker Magic: (HG == Hg == Mercurial HG == HyperGrid)

[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Win version will follow

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: see that Beq ch.. wait you still don't have eep :) )

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I still won't have eep for a long time Ubit

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: ok

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to add a lot of supporting code first

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: i tried to mk wl work

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: before even starting on it

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: even have parcels env :)

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: just no altitudes

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: i need regions cpu for better things

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: actually never tested altitude

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: but thats 99% viewer side

[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the update on Dayturn, Gavin. Any more last minute items?

[12:21] Ada Radius: viewer side affects server side. Because of people.

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: ( eep viewer i meant )

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: eep viewers detect altitude changes alone

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: even parcel changes

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: no need for region code on that

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have an altimeter

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: wl viewers do not

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: so i act on parcels crossing, because code was there already

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: well lets see how it goes

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: assuming anyone will look :p

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, I'll say thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: the visits u had at ubittestdt where the ones i forced there :p

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: "forced"

[12:24] Kayaker Magic: Bye all! Fun meeting!

[12:25] Ada Radius: Thanks everyone!

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: (and .. i had..)