Chat log from the meeting on 2021-10-05

 [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit is afk in IRC. I don't know if he will be joining us today. [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he does not seem to be logged on [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lagging too - not sure it is my side [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't noticed any lag (so far). [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe it is another day of FB madness [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: On the topic of OpenSim news, there have been some changes this past week. [11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, we found temp attachments did not quite behave in FS and my viewer [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: There was an update to the libOMV library, and a few additional LSL script functions where added: llOrd, llChar, and llHash. [11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there was a fix for that which Ubit called a stupid ll hax [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: these have recently been added to SL llOrd, llChar, and llHash. [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think those changes have been pushed to Bitbucket yet [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have not (for llOrd, llChar, and llHash.) [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I just check the main git repo for the latest changes. [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since I have all my other repos on bitbucket it is easier to deal with all in one location [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: As much as I dislike git I pull from the main repo and also have some other repos on github. [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Any questions, comments, or new bugs to discuss? [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Windows 11 is out [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yesterday [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Whatever that is worth as a lot of existing machines won't be able to run it. [11:15] Bill Blight: Been running it for a month, surprisingly does not appear to have broken anything .. [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am frustrated because there don't seem to be any viable way for me to run it on my existing HW - or in a VM even. So not sure what that means for viewer dev [11:15] Bill Blight: yeah if your machine is more than about 10 years old you are screwed [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are not [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: none of them are loder than 5 years [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, It shouldn't impact viewer dev. The requirements for Windows 11 mean a lot of people will be staying on 10. [11:16] Bill Blight: Most modern machines either have a TPM or the CPU has TPM included, a lot of misinformation on the TPM thing around [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I cannot test the viewer on win 11 [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so of course it has some impact [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only own Apple HW except for a HP server machine [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, there is that but I don't think you will have very many people trying to run the viewer on 11. [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every new machine sold will come with it, and granted the immedeate impact will be small, but [11:19] Bill Blight: viewers run fine on windows 11 as I have been running 11 for over a month [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Here comes Ubit. [11:19] Bill Blight: Actually I get higher FPS now [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit. [11:20] Ubit Umarov: hi [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have no way of checking my viewer so frustrating for me [11:20] Ubit Umarov: oh? [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on win 11 [11:20] Ubit Umarov: and who wants it ? [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people buing new machines will get it if they like it or not [11:21] Bill Blight: people can trash it all they want ... My machine is running better since updating to the insider builds and then to final of win 11 [11:21] Ubit Umarov: it is already on market on new machines? [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not trashing it [11:22] Bill Blight: Most people trashing it, have never even tried it .. [11:22] Bill Blight: I'm speaking in general about internet reaction to it [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was released yesterday, so you'll see it in market in a few [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, that is fine if you have a new enough machine to satisfy the system requirements. [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people are frustrated about some of the requirements [11:23] Ubit Umarov: i refuse to buy that chip [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It will accept quite a few chips but they have to have been produced in the last few years. [11:23] Bill Blight: Most machines made in the last 10 years have it already, but usually disable din the bios [11:23] Ubit Umarov: not really [11:24] Ubit Umarov: my mb does not have it, has a pin header to add [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure how old my machine is but I don't recall that it has the security thing that is needed. I know my CPU is too old and is not supported. [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think the ARS review has a slightly different sotry [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: story* [11:25] Bill Blight: it is funny that the TPM chips went from around $20 to $200 overnight [11:25] Ubit Umarov: so fun on how now all software seems to had decided everyone needs new hardware [11:25] Ubit Umarov: and mostly for no valid reason [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: VMware can add the TPM is sw if you encrypt the disk image, but Win 11 still refuse to run unless the processor is exact to their (random) specs [11:26] Bill Blight: anybody running AMD Ryzen is pretty much OK since their CPU's have it in firmware [11:26] Bill Blight: but the other thing, only takes about 5 minutes to disable the TPM requirement in the ISO which is also funny [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: funny till the next update [11:27] Ubit Umarov: guess future updates will actually enforce its presence [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probalby cool if you love to tinker around with custom built ISOs, but I don't see the charm [11:27] Bill Blight: I mean Apple has had the similar thing with their ASIC for years, but since MAC OS is not platform agnostic nobody is bitching [11:28] Ubit Umarov: for now it is still a fast an dirty release i presume [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there has been bitching [11:28] Jagga Meredith: I'm still pissed off at having to upgrade from XP. Hate the new GUI. Imagine 11 will be worse [11:28] Ubit Umarov: oh a lot [11:28] Ubit Umarov: specially on the finger thing [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it makes it impossible to replace the SSD because of that [11:28] Bill Blight: They have already released post fixes .. LOL [11:28] Ubit Umarov: if you replaced, the os dies on the next update [11:29] Bill Blight: OK Real Life paging me ... TTFN [11:29] Ubit Umarov: win license is also bound to the install hardware [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bill. See you next time. [11:29] Ubit Umarov: just they have been tolerant since ever [11:30] Ubit Umarov: but in license, any change on hardware invalidates the lic and you need to pay one [11:30] Ubit Umarov: well "major" change, with "major" defined only by ms [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:31] Jagga Meredith: "grandpa's axe" conundrum. [11:31] Jagga Meredith: if you replace head and handle, is it still grandpa's axe [11:31] Ubit Umarov: forget golden age of home pcs is gone [11:32] Ubit Umarov: now are just like consolers [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: When I had a MB failure and replaced it WIndows XP would no longer boot. I would need to do a fresh install. Just haven't bothered as I don't use WIndows that much except on my laptop when I'm away from my desktop. Even then, I'm usually ssh'ed in to my desktop from the laptop. [11:32] Ubit Umarov: and back to 1970/70's concept of center computers with subscritpion modeles [11:33] Ubit Umarov: 1960's [11:33] Ubit Umarov: central [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: batch queue [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, those early days of personal computers where you often got schematics and full system software source listings. [11:34] Ubit Umarov: wel in fact charging full use, but now using local cpu user paied resoureces [11:34] Jagga Meredith: put a stripe across your punched card deck so it's easy to sort if you dropped it [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can always print the source of Linux with utilities [11:34] Ubit Umarov: that chips major use it to hijack our data, keeping it in disk but encrypted [11:35] Ubit Umarov: so only with a valid subscription of a program we can read it [11:35] Jagga Meredith: good point [11:36] Ubit Umarov: for now, we need to upload and keep everything on their datacenters, using their cpus ( thing SL assets model ) [11:36] Ubit Umarov: with that chip they can do better use or own hardware, still keeping full ownership of our data [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IBM reporting a growing market for private cloud [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Synology does the same at the other end of the market [11:37] Ubit Umarov: well did you conver opensim news already? [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes we did. [11:38] Jagga Meredith: my apologies for cluttering up Mantis with another off-topic post. We did resolve the issue (dll) allowing us to run PODEX on 0.9.2 [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even the stupid ll hax [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but you forgot to push all to bitbuckety [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Here is an OpenSim related question. What sorts of issues can result in -> System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. [11:38] Ubit Umarov: wel you could tell there on mantis that and close it jagga [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: That is from a script that uses KFM to move an object. The error occured when trying to stop the movement. [11:39] Jagga Meredith: Melanie had already closed it [11:39] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Need a bit more of that error to pinpoint [11:40] Ubit Umarov: no it is not closed [11:40] Ubit Umarov: hmm tampa did [11:40] Jagga Meredith: ok i'll do that [11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Had a few mantis tickets that weren't really reproducible so resolved those until new information emerges [11:41] Ubit Umarov: but you should tell that [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: The full report is at https://pastebin.com/i8pbAkGS under 0.9.1.1 version of OS. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: so ppl see it was not actually a opensim issue [11:41] Ubit Umarov: ohh tampa is here [11:41] Jagga Meredith: can i reopen it to do that? [11:42] Ubit Umarov: yeha null refs keep happening [11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Andrew, says the line it fails on there, you can check the code to see what it does at that particular point, might be a clue as to what fails, usually is [11:43] Ubit Umarov: bc parts of code have no idea others had delete things already [11:43] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: You can reopen tickets if new information is available yes [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I don't have that old version of code. I would have to check it out and have a look if that version was tagged. [11:43] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:43] Ubit Umarov: happens on last also [11:44] Ubit Umarov: the uncontroled multitaks nature of code makes that [11:44] Ubit Umarov: just impossible to prevent fully [11:44] Ubit Umarov: in fact may get more on 0.9.2 [11:45] Ubit Umarov: bc i do add explicit Dispose on scenepresence [11:45] Ubit Umarov: bc it does have parts that need it [11:46] Ubit Umarov: so other parts of code may still try to touch on a "deleted" one [11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Especially given how scripts themselves work inside the C# that ultimately runs the show underneath you have multiple layers of things that can go awry, scripts are not fully safe in that sense, you can cause some real weird conditions with them [11:46] Ubit Umarov: opensim was made this way, not much to do [11:46] Ubit Umarov: in fact c# makes it even hardered [11:47] Ubit Umarov: on c++ you have no option.. need to code to avoid any null ref :p [11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Nothings perfect so expecting it to be... kinda your own fault if you run into a wall then I'd say [11:49] Ubit Umarov: well abotu last week code .. was commented already? [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: yes [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the new funtions [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: llchar etc [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: the update to libOMV [11:49] Ubit Umarov: well ll added those and some ppl got excited [11:50] Ubit Umarov: they are mostly useless [11:50] Ubit Umarov: specially the llhash [11:50] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Had fun with those, broke a patch, learned how to wrestle git to behave and patch regardless, so useful in more than just new toys to play with [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: LSL already included a hash function, AFAICR. [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you tell that to LL ? :-) [11:50] Ubit Umarov: than hash has such a high collision rate that is useless [11:51] Ubit Umarov: except as part of a search [11:51] Ubit Umarov: like on c# dictionaries [11:51] Ubit Umarov: they have a extra compare to mk sure things are equal or not [11:52] Ubit Umarov: so it is a very usefull thing..  for internall code [11:52] Ubit Umarov: not for generic use by ppl that do not understand it [11:52] Ubit Umarov: and SL wiki example is just bad [11:52] Ubit Umarov: the llChar and ord  are dif [11:53] Ubit Umarov whispers: look ok..  but opensim and SL support of unicode is actually BAD [11:53] Ubit Umarov: specially opensim [11:53] Ubit Umarov: sl does it a bit better [11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It made me think of what else LSL could use that I have grown used to with php and C#, some regex things and string operations perhaps or sorting functions. Though use cases are slim to none for most I guess [11:53] Ubit Umarov: see [11:54] Ubit Umarov: for c# unicode only has 16bits [11:54] Jagga Meredith: mmmm...regex! [11:54] Ubit Umarov: absolute no suport for more [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: YEngine adds some things I'm used to having in a programming language. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: all .net string code is not even for utf-16 [11:54] Ubit Umarov: but for a predecessor calles ucs-2 i think [11:55] Ubit Umarov: that was only 16 bits [11:55] Ubit Umarov: unicode a character can have more than one utf16 char [11:56] Ubit Umarov: most commun 2 [11:56] Ubit Umarov: but cna be like 8 or even more on special symbols [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I had to switch between unicode and utf-8 in a program as some string related functions only existed for one of the two string formats. [11:56] Ubit Umarov: SL code does know abotu the 2 chars case [11:56] Ubit Umarov: opensim does NOT [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: switch back and forth that is as needed. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: SL does not handle the other multi char cases [11:58] Ubit Umarov: so if you use special chars ( inc 2 utf16 ones here) function that split a sting for example may break it in the middle of a character [11:58] Ubit Umarov: turnnig it a invalid string [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, that is a problem. You need to determine the length of a character. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, it can be anywhere from 1 to 4 bytes. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: no [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: 3 bytes? [11:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all [11:59] Ubit Umarov: im talking about utf-16 not utf-8 [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, bye Selby. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans [12:00] Ubit Umarov: and utf-8 can have a lot more that 4 bytes per character [12:00] Ubit Umarov: bc some characters are composition ones [12:00] Ubit Umarov: see ç [12:00] Ubit Umarov: see it as a C wiht a comma? [12:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: fäncy [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:01] Ubit Umarov: well tehre are at least 2 codes for ç [12:01] Ubit Umarov: one is a sinble uft 16 char.. in fact from a ascii code page [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Not a composition in UTF-8. Which every charset one is using a function is needed to determine the length of a character. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: -y [12:02] Ubit Umarov: other inses 2 chars.. the C and a Special comma [12:02] Ubit Umarov: compostion is a unicode thing [12:02] Ubit Umarov: utf32 can also have multiple ints for a character [12:03] Ubit Umarov: the special comma tells it is part of previues char and should be drawn with it [12:03] Ubit Umarov: and there are thing witj 8 or more of that :p [12:04] Ubit Umarov: but ok [12:04] Ubit Umarov: most cases here and SL is 2 utf8 chars == 4 utf8 bytes == 1 utf32 [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Using C with a comma makes me think it is a poor mans version of C with a cedille. :) [12:05] Ubit Umarov: opensim only supports 1 utf-16 char case [12:05] Ubit Umarov: all sl scripts with string operations will FAIL on opensim [12:05] Ubit Umarov: if complex characters are used [12:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I feel like charsets are still stuck in 2004 or something, millions of javascript frameworks in the meantime, still same ole charsets [12:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: And still the same issues with them too [12:06] Ubit Umarov: this is not new [12:06] Ubit Umarov: it oroiginal opensim devs thing [12:06] Ubit Umarov: that now can't be fixed [12:06] Ubit Umarov: because the fix would break opensim things [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: If the LL char routines are written properly the number of bytes in use should be hidden from the user. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: ll scripts do handle all utf-16 cases up to 2 chars [12:08] Ubit Umarov: llgetstringlength does return number of characters there here returns number of utf 16 chars [12:08] Ubit Umarov: SL indexes on string fucntions are indexes to characters [12:08] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a good week yall [12:08] Ubit Umarov: here theu are indexed to chars [12:08] Ubit Umarov: se we can break strings in invalid points [12:08] Ubit Umarov: in sumary [12:09] Ubit Umarov: OPENSIM LSL string code is not compatibilble with SL one since ever [12:09] Ubit Umarov: unless you stay on characters that onely use 1 utf16 char [12:10] Ubit Umarov: i did change http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentation [12:10] Ubit Umarov: to try to tell that [12:10] Ubit Umarov: since after all this years no one ever did care [12:11] Ubit Umarov: that is the issue witj llOrd and llChar [12:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I been trying to go through the wiki pages by age to see what needs work, but there are a bunch of things I don't even know how it works so documenting means reading code and that's rather time consuming [12:12] Ubit Umarov: lets ppl create chars that will have issues [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: If they are indexed to chars there is no problem. If they are indexed to bytes that is when you wind up in a case where a string can get broken. [12:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Bunch of the database tables have various flags for permissions and so on, no documentation on them and hard to find in code [12:12] Ubit Umarov: and the llord index/ postion is not compativle with SL [12:12] Ubit Umarov: as i said [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you for doing that, Vincent. [12:13] Ubit Umarov: here is ia index for a utf16 char at SL it is for a character [12:14] Ubit Umarov: see the change on http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentation ? [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: That should not matter as long as the functions are doing things based on the char type in the grid and not on bytes. [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: push to bitbucket pls [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't pushing to bitbucket supposed to be done automatically? [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Or is bitbucket supposed to automatically pull updates? [12:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The way this is fragmented across platforms is a bit meh, also bitbucket is... well... meh [12:16] Ubit Umarov: i just told it does not do it based on character [12:16] Ubit Umarov: never did and now will never do [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: If it isn't it needs to be fixed. [12:17] Ubit Umarov: bc now it can't be fixed [12:17] Ubit Umarov: would berak opensim code that hand tunned around the issues [12:17] Ubit Umarov: it is a original devs mistake, induced by how c# is [12:17] Ubit Umarov: bc c# is like opensim [12:18] Ubit Umarov: opensim just used c# strings [12:18] Ubit Umarov: see ? [12:18] Ubit Umarov: SL uses some lib that do them better [12:18] Ubit Umarov: and not that doing it right has a big load cost [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If the code gets something from a string and puts it in to a char it shouldn't matter how many bytes as long as you stick to the object using the standard data types. [12:19] Ubit Umarov: strings need to be scanned all he time to finc characters positions [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, it is a pain. I've dealt with that in the past. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: wel a lot worse if uft-8 [12:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We got a big enough rug to sweep the mountain under so... [12:20] Ubit Umarov: and remember [12:20] Ubit Umarov: unicode used to be 16bits only also [12:20] Ubit Umarov: for 2 or 3 years [12:21] Ubit Umarov: it was that usc-2 or how it is called [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: The code I updated to use UTF-8 switched between UTF-8 chars and the two byte unicode chars to do certain operations. [12:21] Ubit Umarov: he ythey added more [12:22] Ubit Umarov: in fact utf-8 could use 6 bytes [12:22] Ubit Umarov: then they ddi reduce it so utf-8 is at most 4 bytes niw [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't looked at that code in a while. If unicode size has changed I'll need to have another look at that old code. [12:22] Ubit Umarov: that also bc utf-16 encoding [12:22] Ubit Umarov: no need [12:23] Ubit Umarov: the bytes encodinign just works [12:23] Ubit Umarov: on utf-8 [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: When I worked on the code, unicode was two bytes and utf-8 was up to 4. [12:23] Ubit Umarov: that is now [12:23] Ubit Umarov: ( not counitng the composition characters ) [12:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Just use utf128 because just like avx adding bits fixes everything xD [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the half past the hour mark. [12:24] Ubit Umarov: wel i did add those 3 functions [12:24] Ubit Umarov: of ppl than do know, can use them [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, did you want to say anything about viewer development or wait for next week when more people are here? [12:24] Ubit Umarov: ppls who do not understand code, will do a mess [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not much to say over what I already said [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure how I sensibly can proceed Win development in anything but the short term [12:25] Ubit Umarov: al sl blogs ppl adding scritps [12:25] Ubit Umarov: that compact ascii on on char etc [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I think you can safely ignore Win 11 for now. [12:26] Ubit Umarov: useless :p [12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not going to buy any new HW for it, so yeah [12:26] Ubit Umarov: some did test win11 on a vm [12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it barfs on the processors I have [12:27] Ubit Umarov: yeach [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I build a vm today with the latest iage and TMP set properly [12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I have XP and 10 in VMs, and I'm not going to get rid of a perfectly good laptop that runs Windows 10 just to get Windows 11. [12:27] Ubit Umarov: well some do say it does actually run on older cpus [12:27] Ubit Umarov: ms just did not test [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs on older cpus but [12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to keep building custom installers that breaks for every update [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, there are people who used the test/dev version of 11 and ran it on older hardware that wouldn't be supported under the released version. [12:29] Ubit Umarov: ms helping hardware sells [12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly the same as getting macOS running on old machines [12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or on hackintoshes [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, and generating more ewaste. [12:29] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:30] Ubit Umarov: dam full pressure to update everywhere [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is frustrating [12:30] Ubit Umarov: remember opensim is also ao a death path [12:30] Ubit Umarov: mono is dead [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no ARM 64-bit version ever it seems [12:31] Ubit Umarov: they just tell soft must move to net5 or die [12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, there is a 64-bit arm version of 10, IIRC. [12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no updates since a year almost? [12:32] Ubit Umarov: and move to net 5 is a pain [12:32] Ubit Umarov: see even the unicode CHANGED [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: debian 11 mono crashes the compiler when compiling opensim [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on Intel [12:32] Ubit Umarov: the why .net sees or compares strings changed [12:32] Ubit Umarov: and it is not fully doc [12:33] Ubit Umarov: thw way i mean [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, let's call this gathering to a close. [12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week. [12:35] Meeting Chat Logger V4: Meeting chat logging has been disabled. [12:35] Meeting Chat Logger V4: You can view the log at: https://outreach.blight.media/index.php [12:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you too