Chat log from the meeting on 2020-01-07

[10:53] Kayaker Magic: Ubit: There was a guy who came to this meeting who had a list of syntax issues he had seen wity YEngine. Or did he create a mantis? Email? [10:53] Kayaker Magic: You recall who that was? [10:53] Ubit Umarov: don't remember that :( [10:54] Kayaker Magic: He had crazy things like a script with no default state, and it sill ran in XEngine. [10:54] Ubit Umarov: yes X could do odd things [10:54] Ubit Umarov: still can :) [10:55] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone. [11:02] Kayaker Magic: Well I have some interesting news about OpenSim: [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 listening [11:02] Kayaker Magic: Kitely has decided to finally upgrade to 0.9.1 [11:03] Kayaker Magic: I suggested that they add a button to their WEB page to switch between YEngine and XEngine. [11:03] Ubit Umarov: and bullet/ubode :) [11:03] Kayaker Magic: I sold them so well on the benifits of YEngine they are talking about only offering YEngine with 0.9 on Kitely! [11:04] Ubit Umarov: well will be a pain migration for them [11:04] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I just assumed there would be a ubODE button also, they have one for Bullet/ODE now. [11:04] Ubit Umarov: 2 old.. and they do have a lot of own code [11:05] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, but they had another project fail on them and have some time to do the OpenSim merge now. [11:05] Ubit Umarov: i was thinking exactly about that fail [11:05] Kayaker Magic: I'm on the beta test of that other project and can't talk about it.... [11:06] Ubit Umarov: already did :p [11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The log of the recent meeting says that the Kitley code has around 600 patches. [11:07] Kayaker Magic: So if they do use only YEngine, they will get a lot of old scripts with XEngine syntax issues. I'm looking for a list of those. [11:07] Ubit Umarov: just ask her on IM so it is not forgotten [11:07] Ubit Umarov: even with just X [11:07] Ubit Umarov: a lot changed [11:07] Kayaker Magic: There was a guy here several months ago who had a list of XEngine things that got syntax errors in YEngine, anyone recall who that was? [11:09] Ubit Umarov: so andrew what is new on opensim ? [11:09] Kayaker Magic: Shouldn't we be asking you, Ubit? [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was going to mention we have our first new bit of news for this year. Someone named Ubit just announced that there is a new release of the Open Simulator software. Version 0.9.1.1 is now available. [11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: whats the news on BoM viewers? [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: /clap [11:11] Ubit Umarov: ahh emails work ( even with typos ) [11:11] Ubit Umarov: dayturn suports it, only on 0.9.1.x [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What is the news Arielle that has not been covered by HGB? :-) [11:11] Ubit Umarov: i think [11:11] Ubit Umarov: cool VL is as before [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only on 0.9.1? [11:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i know there is work going on with FS Opensim [11:12] Ubit Umarov: 1.x [11:12] Ubit Umarov: seems cool vl kinda seems to work on old versions by miracle [11:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: can dayturn jump from .9.1 to .9.0.x? [11:12] Ubit Umarov: can't tell if on all cases [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has the same jump code as FS [11:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what happens to a BoM avatar? [11:13] Ubit Umarov: Beq from FS is working on a more stable solution [11:13] Ubit Umarov: but still work in progress :( [11:13] Ubit Umarov: she has been here testing ( just yesterday ) [11:14] Ubit Umarov: i fire up a old 0.8 to see things region side [11:14] Ubit Umarov: don't know about other viewers [11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i been testing a bit with ai and may have seen a weird issue [11:15] Ubit Umarov: fs is still not good [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been testing between OS versions, but obviously it will not come out correct in every case [11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well it wasnt the beta fs [11:16] Ubit Umarov: yesterday Beq had a improvement, but still only on her own local build [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but nobody is crashing as far as I can test [11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but my FS version saw him and afterward i jumped to Lbsa and a number of avatars there had no hands [11:16] Ubit Umarov: each opensim version misbehaves its own way on that [11:16] Ubit Umarov: if gets some BOM data [11:17] Ubit Umarov: since we to have large scope try{} catch things, may not actually crash [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: was there a change a while ago as to how the opensim code deals with viewers caches? [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:18] Ubit Umarov: if you say so [11:18] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thought i had heard something about that though i didnt understand it all [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but gist of it being that the cache can have a bearing on how others see an avatar? [11:20] Ubit Umarov: 911 has some mitigation for those missing prims/terrain patchs [11:20] Ubit Umarov: all data points to weak GPUs/CPUs issues [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: whats considered weak? [11:20] Ubit Umarov: 9fps was a case [11:21] Kayaker Magic: Arielle: The server enables viewer-side-caching of objects, so the second time you visit a region things rez faster. [11:21] Ubit Umarov: viewer object cache put a high demand on viewers [11:22] Ubit Umarov: with normal updates, viewer is told about hmmm 5 or so objects per udp packet [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so that would only affect what i see? [11:22] Ubit Umarov: with cache it is told about 70 or so per udp packet [11:22] Ubit Umarov: that it will need to read from disk etc etc [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and when you say objects, does that mean avatar related objects or just region ones? [11:23] Ubit Umarov: some prims that are static [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: My nVidia 1050 must be weak. I'm barely getting 9fps. [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so not avatar attachments? [11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( well that means most prims on a region ) [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you dial everything to max, you will get 9fps with just about any card [11:24] Ubit Umarov: no, no point on caching things that change like attachments [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I don't dial things to max because my frame rates generally suck. [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:24] Ubit Umarov: ive 60 here with all maxed [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll review them again and experiment. Perhaps there is one (or two) settings that affect the fps number more than others. [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: advanced lighting model is not needed in opensim? [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most avatars wear the same attachments from session to session, so they can easily benefit from caching [11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( except deepth thing.. hate that ) [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I used to get good frame rates on an older 8650(??) card. [11:25] Ubit Umarov: well they are not cached [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ALM is needed for many scenes to render as the creator intended also for opensim [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sames as in SL [11:26] Ubit Umarov: neither physics prims, animesh, etc etc [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no "need" for it [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh ok i thought that utilized the materials thing [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is required for materials [11:26] Ubit Umarov: you mean before mesh avatars andrew ? :) [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the scene will still render without ALM turned on [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The shaders make a noticable difference but they also affect ones view of the world. [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just looking not so good [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also has a big impact on fps on weaker GPUs [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i'm getting around 85 fps here [11:28] Ubit Umarov: well i do limit fps to 60 :) [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually the viewer (FS) should also limit to 60 if they have taken all the SL code [11:29] Ubit Umarov: i did wait for more feedback on mantis about the missing rendering things [11:29] Ubit Umarov: the mitigation code did fix at least one case [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is interesting how a newer CPU, graphics card, and viewer wind up giving me worse frame rates than I used to get. [11:29] Ubit Umarov: had no more feedback, so did release [11:30] Ubit Umarov: i had plans to release 911 just after oscc :( [11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what is different about 911? [11:30] Ubit Umarov: ( gezz i should had released it as 0.9.1.2 .. i keep telling 911 that is odd ) [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you could dial 911 for emergency [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or it can mean 9/11 [11:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: will Ubit answer? [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well it is a worse reference even [11:31] Ubit Umarov: its what i said on emails and release notes [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a reason why we don't have windows version 9 [11:32] Ubit Umarov: some fixes to issues ppl did reported [11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: since we been on about viwers, i'd like to bring up the crashing Lumiya android viewer [11:33] Ubit Umarov: in particulay "paying users" [11:33] Ubit Umarov: and the attachments worn are now limited to 38 [11:33] Ubit Umarov: as viewers spec [11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: as it is the only viewer capable of it [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 38 on one point? [11:34] Ubit Umarov: yes can all be on same point now [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh good [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: one reason to use master again [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 38 total, but can all be on one point [11:34] Ubit Umarov: there is an option to change the behaviour of inventory wear command also [11:35] Ubit Umarov: till now and by default wear a attachment, removes all on that point [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes freaking pain that was! [11:35] Ubit Umarov: that option allows to replace just the oldest [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not with the add option [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not a double click [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wear would replace, add would add to the attachment point [11:36] Ubit Umarov: ( not as wearables do.. that should replace the last worn ) [11:36] Ubit Umarov: but actually did not test the wearables case, just attachments [11:36] Ubit Umarov: i will add info on that on the release notes [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so what is a double click? [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wear or add? [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wear [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so that will still strip me? [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you wear all at one point it will [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats how creators do it [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in s/l and older opensim the double click adds [11:38] Ubit Umarov: no idea what you are talking about.. but details :p [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course, they don't want you to wear a competitors outfit [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats because you dont wear attachments? [11:38] Ubit Umarov: i use glasses [11:38] Kayaker Magic: I read the list of recent changes to OpenSim in the git log, is there a place to read that online? [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so does a doubleclick add still going to strip me? [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does a double click in the offical SL viewer add? [11:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does if it is assigned to a different attachment point [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but Ubit changed the behaviour server side in opensim master a while back [11:40] Ubit Umarov: ( thats viewer side code.. ) [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually a creator will attach a right shoe to the right foor attachment point before shipping [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: normally yes but you changed the behaviour [11:40] Ubit Umarov: well of course osgrid users have this changes for a while [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no Gavin [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but if everything is set to be attached to the right hand as default, it will replace also in SL [11:40] Ubit Umarov: since osg follows master closer [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they all putting it on the left hand [11:41] Ubit Umarov: ( not sure anyone noticed that new wear option ) [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh quite a few did [11:41] Ubit Umarov: ok [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i certainly have when i was stripped on a doubleclick add [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: usually when in public [11:42] Ubit Umarov: delete all, when they can be 38 is kinda nasty :) [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: because it is not standard behaviour [11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess it was.. ages ago [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it was selectable i believe [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in viewers [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but was removed [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and it became a default add [11:43] Ubit Umarov: well master dev code is now on 0.9.2.0 Yeti [11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( nothing changed still :) ) [11:44] Ubit Umarov: i have some broken code to commit :p [11:45] Ubit Umarov: when i do, master will be well +- :) [11:45] Ubit Umarov: about opensim [11:45] Ubit Umarov: one should mention the sad issue with Great Canadian Grid [11:46] Ubit Umarov: and hope it does get back fast [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: see? [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: add a hair and it strips me [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: this is non standard [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: We're going from snail to Yeti? [11:46] Ubit Umarov: i must express my dislike to see a comercial grid to ask for donations to fix its poor management [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks wonders how Ubit decides on the names. :) [11:47] Kayaker Magic: Well, you got the attention of all the men here.... [11:47] Ubit Umarov: specially after InWorldZ incident [11:47] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: sure they seen a naked female avi before ;P [11:47] Kayaker Magic: lol, especially in-world! [11:47] Ubit Umarov: but well.. lets hope the grid does get back fast, for its users [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just go to LBSA and watch the spectacle when people rezz in. Very bizarre at times [11:48] Ubit Umarov: Yeti will be a release, one day :) [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Should take that long to get the regions back up and running. If the grid has to replace a control panel system that was used to manage the grid that will probably take longer. [11:48] Ubit Umarov: 911 is still snail [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so not a Porche [11:49] Ubit Umarov: it is a snail porche :) [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in Apple we had a Macintosh OS version with codename BHA [11:51] Ubit Umarov: well about gcg i, like many on blogs, seen no reason why users could not be at gcg during xmas and new year [11:51] Ubit Umarov: but well not going there [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which the real meaning of was "butt head astronomer" referring to Carl Sagan [11:51] Kayaker Magic: lol [11:51] Ubit Umarov: just it is another bad thing for the entire opensimulator comunity and trust [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I was wondering if BHA was some chemical, possibly a preservative in food. [11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so how many grids left on .8.2 with kitely switching? [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is DHA [11:52] Ubit Umarov: guess a lot still [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: May it is BHT [11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: is there any need left for BoM viewer testing on .8.2 compatibility? [11:52] Ubit Umarov: but fine.. they soon will just need to use old viewers [11:52] Kayaker Magic: Butylated HydroxyAnisole [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: bless you, Kayaker. ;) [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we must stop using all these TLAs [11:53] Kayaker Magic: British Hospitality Association [11:53] Ubit Umarov: BOM thing was the last compatibilty with old viewers i told about viewer devs [11:54] Ubit Umarov: with old regions i mean ( ie 0.8 and early 0.9 ) [11:54] Kayaker Magic: BOM Bill Of Materials [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: That's my initial reaction to those initials as I deal with those on a regular basis. [11:55] Ubit Umarov: pure suport of last opensim version is not garanted on next viewer releases [11:55] Ubit Umarov: so we can't go on thinking about older opensim versions [11:55] Ubit Umarov: and they can use viewers as old as they are [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't checked recently if there is a new FS viewer for Linux available that supports BOM. [11:56] Ubit Umarov: FS suports BOM at SL :p [11:56] Ubit Umarov: linux problem is vivox [11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: would be nice though if you could fix whatever is crashing Lumiya [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, there is a 6.3.2 release of FS now available for Linux. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: vivox will kill the old servers one day [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's hope the people working on EchoGate (IIRC), make good progress quickly so that Vivox can become a thing of the past. [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is more like they will upgrade them [11:58] Ubit Umarov: mumble is old option [11:58] Ubit Umarov: but a big pain [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but IMA is working on that [11:59] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: how many actually even use voice? [11:59] Ubit Umarov: i was promissed a region side donation a year or more ago [11:59] Ubit Umarov: nothing so far [11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( updated mumble module i mean ) [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I often use voice inworld. [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in SL a LOT [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not so many in opensim [12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the few times i have activated it i quickly turn it off [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a group of people I meet with semi regularly. They always use voice chat. [12:00] Ubit Umarov: i had to use it at oscc :) [12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: open mike's, squalling kids, blaring backround music [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yup. That's life for you. :) [12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and people i can either not quite hear or an accent i cant make out [12:01] Kayaker Magic: There is the Senchai library reading stories in SL and Kitely. I find vivox very reliable in Kitely, not so reliable in other OpenSim places.... [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the people in the group has some dogs that are often heard barking in the background. [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: voice may not work so good with mixed language audiences [12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no they havent invented voice translators yet [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost two weeks ago I had trouble with voice in SL while I was talking with someone I know. [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have, but they don't work so good [12:03] Ubit Umarov: hmm a thing i noticed with recent viewers [12:03] Ubit Umarov: they to intentionally crash if they get wrong textures on prims [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to develop a good language model for dictation usually takes 5-10 years for any given language [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and even then it tends to be domain specific [12:04] Ubit Umarov: that may mean that thing some call BOM [12:04] Ubit Umarov: ie direct apply a baked texture UUID on a mesh face [12:04] Ubit Umarov: baked textures are not like normal textures !! [12:05] Ubit Umarov: they can have more components.. ( 5) [12:05] Ubit Umarov: and alpha component may not be alpha at all [12:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i wonder how many will even use it [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how did you obtain the baked texture you applied to the mesh surface? [12:06] Ubit Umarov: i do occasionaly put them on prim faces for debug and no big deal [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because you are not supposed to be able to do that [12:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: only in s/l [12:06] Ubit Umarov: but did got some of those crashes on new viewers [12:06] Ubit Umarov: some people took our NPCs code and use it to do something they call BOM [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you could you can just take a mesh avatar, walk up to somone with a fancy set of textures and apply the bake to your own avatar [12:07] Ubit Umarov: some opensim forks have script functions to do that [12:07] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there is an ossl one for that [12:07] Ubit Umarov: i once tried to warn that fork dev... was kinda offended.. they all know better, of course [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it sure sucks for creators [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who want to sell their creations [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ewll here stays the warning.. Baked textures ARE not Normal prim/mesh textures [12:09] Kayaker Magic: The Ruth/Roth team is planning on a new mesh avatar that uses BOM [12:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: already have them in s/l [12:09] Kayaker Magic: BOM makes the "transparency HUD" unnecessary. [12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well not exactly [12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have found occasions where it still would be nice [12:10] Ubit Umarov: you will need them for mesh clothes [12:11] Ubit Umarov: mesh clothes never follow the avatar deformation correctly [12:11] Ubit Umarov: so you need to hide the body [12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what would be nice though is that mesh size code that Qarl made [12:11] Kayaker Magic: BOM has something like the alpha layer you use with classic avatars. [12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: think inworldz used it [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that train has long since left the station Arielle [12:12] Kayaker Magic: So clothing desiners can supply alphas. [12:12] Ubit Umarov: system avatars are a lot more powerful than crap mesh ones [12:12] Ubit Umarov: have a more deformation options, motors.. etc [12:12] Ubit Umarov: morphing.. [12:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well would be nice if someone updated the sytem avatars [12:12] Kayaker Magic: I spent a lot of time developing an improved alpha hud for sale on Kitely, now it is obsolete.... I may try to convert it into a tool for making alpha layers for BOM [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone... [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ll should had done that instead of crap mesh avatars [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you have any idea of the effort that someone would have to put in? [12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: cant use the ruth/roth ones? [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no [12:13] Ubit Umarov: less than the effort they ended up having on mesh avatars [12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why not? [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because there is no support for morph targets for it [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every decent avatar system, including the existing SL avatar, has morph targets [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you create a proper looking variety of avatar shapes and faces with deformation bones [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why most mesh avatars looks like lifeless statues [12:15] Ubit Umarov: BOM is just a return to the sys avatars better wearables system [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well then what about modifying the female system avatar?? [12:16] Ubit Umarov: damm stupid onion avatars guess [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same effort Arielle [12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the male ones not too bad [12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the female ones suck [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you change the underlying mesh, you have to redo all the existing morph targets, and weighting and test it and test it and test and test it...... [12:17] Ubit Umarov: hmm about BOM [12:17] Ubit Umarov: it is not about using old wearables !! [12:18] Ubit Umarov: those can work fine [12:18] Ubit Umarov: but better new ones [12:18] Ubit Umarov: nails on old skins will not work well for example [12:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there is fixes on the MP in s/l [12:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: finger and toe nails [12:19] Ubit Umarov: and at SL new ones can use the improved 1024 px resolution [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: attachments [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you usually don't have to rig or deform a nail [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We have been going for almost an hour and a half. I just had a phone call and will be getting another one in a couple of minutes. I need to get going. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: here.. well depends on viewer devs :p [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it be a simple attachment [12:20] Ubit Umarov: idea of bom is to reduce data [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want to continue the discussions feel free to do so. Thank you all for coming and see you next week. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: not add more attachments to fix it :p [[12:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i suspect BoM is not going to make a big difference to people's complexities [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not? [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: because i dont think a lot will wind up using it [12:23] Ubit Umarov: well seems all are using it [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: where? [12:23] Ubit Umarov: and making things for it [12:23] Ubit Umarov: sl [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't even have the complexity code, so I could not care less [12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i dont see it in the clubs i go to [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it takes time to develop for BOM [12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: BoM still just looks like a painted on clothing [12:24] Ubit Umarov: and for users to pay for new things [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus many established SL devlopers have an existing base to defend [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they may not necessaruily support it immdiately [12:25] Ubit Umarov: a lot of things on face is just painted things [12:25] Ubit Umarov: like lips blablabla [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [12:25] Ubit Umarov: just that is a big saving [12:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i been able to do BoM here in opensim for 4 years or more but  really only  played with it a couple times [12:26] Ubit Umarov: and on clothes you can wear skin tight shirts etc [12:26] Ubit Umarov: under mesh things [12:26] Ubit Umarov: so identical visual.. less data [12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well that  helps [12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but it is only devs that care about data [12:26] Ubit Umarov: see the video on marias announce of dayturn [12:27] Ubit Umarov: yes it is about getting same visual effect with less data [12:27] Ubit Umarov: and resources [12:27] Ubit Umarov: build games and this is ALL about that [12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thing is  that mesh was supposed to be  better for the sertvers [12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone made a video of it testing it in French on a French Windows 10 [12:27] Ubit Umarov: IT IS NOT [12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: now we have it and they still complaining [12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I realized the French localization was significantly lacking, haha [12:28] Ubit Umarov: mesh are not better than prims on servers [12:28] Ubit Umarov: ( and there is no mesh without a suport prim ) [12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats what the  developers said  when they wanted to bring mesh in [12:28] Ubit Umarov: NO [12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes, i remember it distinctly [12:28] Ubit Umarov: they said better visual shapes [12:29] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: said the load would be more on  the users machine [12:29] Ubit Umarov: mesh are only about more complex shapes [12:29] Ubit Umarov: like sculpts where before [12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh and mesh  was going to be lighter then sculpts [12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i remember that too [12:30] Ubit Umarov: BS [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it usually is [12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well Ubit like it or not, thats what was being claimed at the time [12:30] Ubit Umarov: BS :p [12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: far fewer polys to render for the same result with mesh [12:30] Ubit Umarov: sculpts are usually smaller [12:31] Ubit Umarov: no [12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Ubit [12:31] Ubit Umarov: no [12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pull a sculpt into a modeller and be shocked [12:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: shrugs, i been sitting in these meetings for years. I know what i heard [12:31] Ubit Umarov: i made scuplt to mesh code [12:31] Ubit Umarov: several times [12:31] Ubit Umarov: No [12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ^^\ [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pull a sculpt into Zbrush or DAZ Hexagon [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it royally sucks [12:32] Ubit Umarov: just making them is a pain [12:32] Kayaker Magic: It is POSSIBLE to make mesh with better visual look and less resources. Not all designers succeed in doing that. [12:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes the  learning curve for quality  mesh is much steeper then they let on [12:34] Ubit Umarov: and on this we are assuming good creators [12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: scultped panel plants that have like 6 visible faces can be made with 6 polys in mesh, but they usually have 1024 polys in a sculpt, where 1024 - 6 are hidden [12:34] Ubit Umarov: anyone can make a crap sculpt [12:34] Ubit Umarov: and a worse mesh :p [12:34] Kayaker Magic: And the way LL implemented mesh avatars was a hack that uses all the resources of the old system PLUS the new mesh body on top. [12:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in s/l they should charge higher rates for bigger textures [12:35] Kayaker Magic: That did not decrease the load on the system.... [12:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh ok that makes sense [12:35] Ubit Umarov: mesh avatars are ton of hacks on top of hacks [12:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wear  full system avatar and still put mesh body on top [12:36] Ubit Umarov: BOM is just another hack [12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the system avatar is just a blip compared to most worn meshes [12:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but at least mesh hair is a lot lighter [12:37] Ubit Umarov: hair is always heavy [12:37] Ubit Umarov: to look natural [12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fiber mesh [12:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: is that like flexi's? [12:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: we need flexi mesh [12:38] Ubit Umarov: kitely told that upgrade on meetings? [12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Zbrush introduced fiber mesh some yars ago and it immediately became the standard to make hair [12:38] Ubit Umarov: to 0.9.x i mean [12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only you had to use millions of them to look natural [12:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ahh [12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I sell a cop stache in SL made with fiber mesh [12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it only cover the  under the nose area, still you have to wear 2 for it to look reasonable [12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so the fiber isnt a  flexi sort of thing? [12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: more  like strands? [12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can rig it [12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but [12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: .... [12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like strands [12:41] Kayaker Magic: I'm thinking a combination of rigging and animesh could make nice hair.... [12:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: dont they have some of that now? [12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have hair in s/l that  has some small movement [12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but is hard to see [12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rigged but not animesh [12:43] Ubit Umarov: yeah no point on animesh [12:44] Ubit Umarov: gravity, wind,, and colisions with own body at least [12:44] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you want your hair to freak out, it would be good to animate it different from the avatar [12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or be blown by the wind [12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or something [12:45] Kayaker Magic: Yeah! [12:45] Ubit Umarov: linden trees still move with wind on dayturn ? [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they might [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have never tested it [12:46] Ubit Umarov: think it is a option or was on fs [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [12:46] Ubit Umarov: and region needs to have wind active [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is not standard SL functionality, the answer is no [12:47] Ubit Umarov: no idea why ll killed those [12:47] Ubit Umarov: damm silly [12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn has very little FS code in it [12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: render cost [12:48] Ubit Umarov: yeah byt costs 20 bytes to send one [12:48] Ubit Umarov: and some do look good [12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you start to have a large number of moving tris in a scene, it gets very costly to render [12:48] Ubit Umarov: yeap ppl place mesh trees instead [12:48] Ubit Umarov: no gain [12:49] Kayaker Magic: One day I will build animesh trees.... [12:49] Ubit Umarov: and a full tree is 20 bytes on net :) [12:49] Ubit Umarov: +- [12:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus texture(s) [12:49] Ubit Umarov: nopes [12:49] Ubit Umarov: they have them [12:50] Ubit Umarov: i think ?? [12:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they? [12:50] Ubit Umarov: the limited set of trees we have [12:50] Kayaker Magic: Probably on SL by merchants who are afraid to bring them out to the Wild West of OpenSim [12:50] Ubit Umarov: there is not texture entry for them [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you look at the content of the viewer cache of a fresh region with only systme trees, the textures are in the cache [12:51] Ubit Umarov: yes in cache [12:51] Ubit Umarov: not on wire [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it obviously gets the textures from somewhere [12:52] Ubit Umarov: of course [12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it might be in the viewer [12:52] Ubit Umarov: just not wire [12:52] Ubit Umarov: so light on net [12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there is a render cost for those too [12:52] Ubit Umarov: no [12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and when it moves it increases dramatically when you have many [12:53] Ubit Umarov: extra cost relative to a mesh tree with similar look is the generator code [12:53] Ubit Umarov: ONCE [12:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not if they move randomly per frame [12:53] Ubit Umarov: all games have similar things also [12:53] Ubit Umarov: ppl made trees out of flexies [12:54] Ubit Umarov: or animate them with scripts [12:54] Ubit Umarov: bc a still tree is  ugly [12:55] Kayaker Magic: Don't flexies and animesh only move on the viewer? Not on the server? [12:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:55] Ubit Umarov: yes but where talking about costs on viewer [12:55] Kayaker Magic: Ah