Chat log from the meeting on 2007-10-09

[10:45] Stefan Andersson: By the way; if anybody wants to explore the code, writing a simple 'module' [10:45] Stefan Andersson: that logs all chat in a region to file would be a fun little project [10:45] Dalien1 Talbot: indeed [10:45] You: and usefull for the meetings as well [10:46] Stefan Andersson: MW introduced the module architecture so that people could write things more or less stand-alone. [10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: shouldn't we better revive the IRC gateway module ? [10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: that one was quite functional.. [10:46] Stefan Andersson: Personally, I'm surprised that we haven't had more people setting up custom sims and writing modules. [10:46] Stefan Andersson: Why not have both? [10:46] Dalien1 Talbot: true. [10:47] Stefan Andersson: Everybody seems to want to hax core funcs. [10:47] You: the infrastructure for dynamically loading modules isn't in place yet [10:47] Stefan Andersson: Which is fine; but I think the big breakthru comes the day people start pushing code from their own web sites. [10:48] Stefan Andersson: Tlei, that's why I want people to get cracking at it. ;) [10:48] You: I think two things need to change, maybe three [10:48]  You: we need a way do dynamically register plugins [10:48]  You: we need to fill in the wiki page on modules [10:49]  You: and as a possible last thing, but almost unrelated [10:49]  Stefan Andersson: That should be easy enough; a pick-up directory, or a part of the config. [10:49]  You: I think we should isolate the plugin pattern we use into an interface [10:49]  You: I think both [10:49]  Stefan Andersson: Well, yes; the plug-ins should have a well-defined facade into the system [10:50]  Stefan Andersson: that should coincide with the script engine facade [10:50]  You: scan a subdirectory at run time, and look in the config file [10:50]  Stefan Andersson: As I said, simple enough, I think. [10:50]  Stefan Andersson: We already have dir-scanners and config readers.. [10:50]  You: yes, we have all the component parts [10:51] You: should be a piece of cake to do [10:51]  Stefan Andersson: Actually, we have so many of them they should be refactored into generic plug-in handlers [10:52] You: true [10:52] You: which is why I think we should define an IPlugin interface [10:56] Stefan Andersson: Definitively [10:56] Stefan Andersson: Actually, if we could get all our plug-ins into the same structure, so that the different plugin managers could just fetch a list of plug-ins implementing a certain type; that'd be like ace++ [10:57] Neas Bade: welcome all [10:57] Neas Bade: we actually have a pretty reasonable turn out already [10:57] Dalien1 Talbot: all of the plugins - like ? [10:58] Stefan Andersson: So that the IPlugin should have something like IPlugin.Register( IRegisterPluginFacade facade ) [10:58] Dalien1 Talbot: ah something like meta-interface then ? [10:58] Stefan Andersson: and IRegisterPluginFacade would have something like RegisterPlugin( TPlugin instance ) [10:58] Neas Bade: man, it will be nice when we have chains and can sit :) [10:59]  Stefan Andersson: That would mean 'Register me as handling calls to interface TPlugin' [10:59]  Neas Bade: will someone volunteer to upload transcript of the office hours? [11:00]  Stefan Andersson: Then any Plugin could ask IPluginFacade for GetHandler [11:00]  You: if I don't crash, I can do it [11:00]  Charles Krinkeb: I'll be the backup. [11:00]  Dalien1 Talbot: I'll also bounce it to the blog as well. [11:00]  Neas Bade: Tleiades, you have logging turned on? [11:00]  Stefan Andersson: Hm. GetHandler( string name ) I guess [11:00]  Neas Bade: ok, cool [11:00]  Charles Krinkeb: is neas==sean? [11:00]  Neas Bade: yes [11:00]  Charles Krinkeb: got it [11:00]  Neas Bade is Sean Dague [11:01]  Neas Bade: here and in SL [11:01]  Michael Wright: seems like this is going to be everyone [11:01]  Neas Bade: sorry for showing up a little late, dalien / stefan, what did we I wonder into? [11:01] Stefan Andersson: Um, anybody up for implementing what I just said? :P [11:01] Neas Bade: yes, I agree [11:02] You: hmm. where do I turn on logging? [11:02] Stefan Andersson: We were just discussing refining the plug-in handling. [11:02] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so, I'm off for a while.... [11:02] Neas Bade: stefan: ok [11:02]  You: k [11:02]  Charles Krinkeb: As the host, welcome to Sang. Which I believe to the most stable sim on osgrid. It is checked for functionality every morning, runs on the osgrid server and has not crashed once. [11:03] Neas Bade: tleides it is under preferences somewhere [11:04] Michael Wright: really need to fix up the time progressing sometime (night comes a bit too suddenly) [11:04] You: think of as being close to equator [11:04] Neas Bade: Tleiades posted some suggested agenda on the wiki, which seems like as good a place to start as any. Though prior to that, are there other specific things people would like to talk about? [11:04] Neas Bade: MW: heh :) [11:05]  Neas Bade: one of the things I'd like to throw out there is starting to build a master todo list on the wiki, as I think that will help letting people know where they can contribute bits [11:06]  You: yes, agreed [11:06]  Neas Bade: man, everyone's quiet :) [11:06] Dalien1 Talbot: i have crashed a couple of times :) [11:06]  You: I think we should clean up the 0.5 list [11:06]  You: make a free for all list of features they'd like [11:06]  Neas Bade: tleiades, I'd like to hear your thoughts on better approaches to the database layer as well [11:07]  You: and a list of features we plan for 0.5 [11:07]  Michael Wright: yeah, a todo list is needed (and yeah its kind of the middle of getting my daughter to go to bed right now, hopefully in a bit I'll be able to talk more) [11:07]  Neas Bade: MW: no worries [11:07]  You: I like the list the libsl guys have [11:08]  Neas Bade: url? [11:08]  You: http://www.libsecondlife.org/wiki/Roadmap [11:09]  You: as for database layer, I think we should consider things in stages [11:09]  Neas Bade: Ok, I just started a Roadmap page on the wiki [11:09]  You: right now, focus should be on getting stuf to work [11:09]  Neas Bade: I'll take notes into it in "Uncategorized" for now and refine from there [11:09] You: kind of brute force [11:10] You: inventory is ok for mysql and sdague has sqlite well under control [11:11] Michael Wright: the asset system is one area that so needs doing, I have been going to do it for weeks now, but as some of you know, for the last few weeks I've been very busy and just haven't had time [11:11] You: I have written some unit tests for that, and verified both sqlite and mysql [11:11] Charles Krinkeb: Is it a correct assumption that inventory database stuff will not affect the sql users and regions table in grid mode? [11:11] Neas Bade: tleides, well, I think you correctly pointed out that some of the use of DataSets ends up being problematic for larger data (as we load it all into memory) [11:12] You: I think mysql will be used for the larger grids, and sqlite for the standalone ones [11:12] Neas Bade: I'm assuming you are going to take a slightly different approach on the mysql stuff for that? [11:12] You: that is my gut feeling, so no big worries I think [11:12] Neas Bade: if you come up with a better pattern, I'll adapt the sqlite code to match that [11:13] You: yes, not quite as elegant as your code, but it won't flood server memory [11:13] Neas Bade: yeh, that's fine :) [11:13]  Neas Bade: performance counts for something ;) [11:13] Neas Bade: we can probably pull some patterns out of it and make it both pretty and performant [11:14] Neas Bade: I'll admit to being pretty ado.net ignorant when I got started on that code, so learning as I go [11:14]  You: IInventoryData implementation in MySql, is a sample, on how I plan to approach to MySQL [11:14] Neas Bade: great [11:14] Neas Bade: also, those unit tests you have, can you check them into the build tree somewhere sensible? [11:15] Neas Bade: it would be really great to start getting tests in place for key function [11:15] You: well, problem with those are, what about programmers who aren't used to working with unit tests [11:15] Charles Krinkeb: What sort of tests, neas? [11:15] Neas Bade: we beat them with sticks until they like it :) [11:15]  danxor danx0r: heh [11:16]  You: I have written some unitttests, for inventory data [11:16]  danxor danx0r: looks like yoga class [11:16]  Neas Bade: :) [11:16] Charles Krinkeb: Perhaps tests could go on the wiki with simple step-by-step? [11:16] nebadonb izumi: heheh yea [11:16] You: next will be unit tests for assets [11:16] Michael Wright: yeah doing unit tests are always good. [11:16] danxor danx0r: hi sorry I'm late -- technical glitches [11:17] Neas Bade: danxor and I were actually talking about testing earlier, and I was thinking about starting to create a functional test suite by using libsl to create bots and walk them through the environment. It would help with isolating some of the region crossing bugs I think. [11:18] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed. plus, with loadtesting as well... [11:18] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. 9 avatars, 8 green dots. [11:18] You: especially for the database plugins, it is the only way I can think of, which improves the probability of all the plugins working as expected [11:18] You: hey, that is a great idea, automated testing of sim functionality [11:18] You: I love that concept :-) [11:18]  danxor danx0r: unit tests, ftw [11:18]  Dalien1 Talbot: charles: self does not create the green dot :) [11:18] Neas Bade: tleiades: agreed [11:18] danxor danx0r: so would this be something we could all use on a single machine in stand-alone? [11:18] nebadonb izumi: you dont see yourself charles [11:19] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, I think so [11:19]  danxor danx0r: minimap is too small to see individual dots [11:19] danxor danx0r: ahh zoom. nv [11:19] You: danxor.. zoom works [11:19] danxor danx0r: mind [11:19] Neas Bade: at least that would be the goal [11:20] danxor danx0r: it's great to finally see what you all look like :-) [11:20]  You: lol [11:20]  Michael Wright: I think charles is right about the map, I see my yellow dot for myself then 7 green dots (but there is 8 other people here) one person isn't getting a dot [11:20]  Dalien1 Talbot: s/like/alike/ ? :) [11:20] Neas Bade: heh :) [11:20]  danxor danx0r: sort of like that old "Addicted To Love" video [11:20]  Charles Krinkeb: It builds a sense of community, and that is very good. [11:20]  danxor danx0r: I see yello + 8 [11:20]  Dalien1 Talbot: hmm indeed me too. [11:21]  You: so, should I check the unit tests in? [11:21]  Neas Bade: yes [11:21]  You: roger that [11:21]  Neas Bade: how do you execute them at the moment? [11:21]  Neas Bade: is it a manual run, or nunit? [11:22]  You: well, I set my unit test module as executable, and run "nunit-gui" [11:23]  You: we probably should set up a propper nunit test project [11:23]  Neas Bade: lets start with what you have and work towards that goal [11:23]  You: ok [11:24]  You: having my tests in svn will actually help me, I have lost 'em twice already [11:24]  You: deleted the project folder, to get a fresh copy of opensim, and forgot to backup the tests [11:24] Dalien1 Talbot: given the speed with which the things change, i think it is good to push the stuff in as early as possible (assuming it does not break the build or functionality) [11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: even if it is piece by piece [11:25] You: yes, small pieces at a time [11:25] You: but I think some branches in svn would be a good thing [11:25] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm then you'd need to maintain more than one [11:25] Neas Bade: svn branches are actually a beast to merge [11:26] Michael Wright: we used to have branches as generally it just leads to problems [11:26] Dalien1 Talbot: i would rather try to keep it contained within one branch [11:26] Michael Wright: as= and [11:26] Neas Bade: I was thinking of creating a mercurial clone of svn trunk for people that wanted to do local branch changes [11:26] Charles Krinkeb: We declare a moratorium on updates from time to time for a few revisions if we need to pursue an idea that breaks the build for the general user. [11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: my build system always keeps the latest successful build [11:27] danxor danx0r: speaking of svn, I was thinking of creating opensim-libs [11:27] Neas Bade: in my experience using a distributed scm like mercurial makes life much easier if you want to do lots of branch stuff [11:27] Dalien1 Talbot: but ideally the build should never break [11:27] danxor danx0r: and starting down the path of getting a proper 3rd party build [11:27] Michael Wright: yeah, having a stable tag branch, that is only updated say once a week or whatever, but we tell everyone (non developers) to stick to that, is fine [11:27] danxor danx0r: what's mercurial? sounds like git [11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, good point [11:28] Charles Krinkeb: I was responding to Dan's comment a day or so ago that demanding the build always works may put the developers in a bind from time to time. [11:28] Neas Bade: danxor, yes, like git, but easier to learn to use [11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: MW: so that branch would be always re-synced automagically ? or needs manual maintenance ? [11:28] danxor danx0r: it'll need a merge every week sounds like [11:28] danxor danx0r: or maybe not [11:28] danxor danx0r: just replace it with the latest thing [11:28] Dalien1 Talbot: hmm that would mean manual maintenance... = pita. [11:29] danxor danx0r: hmmm [11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: could do simpler imho [11:29] Neas Bade: is this discussion on the stable tag, or on mercurial? [11:29] Dalien1 Talbot: just declare that the stuff should work on monday morning build or such [11:29] You: stable tag, should be pretty easy to do, I think [11:29] danxor danx0r: if testing really works, you could build nightly, test, and update stable if test passes [11:30] Neas Bade: we need a few tests before we could believe that :) [11:30]  danxor danx0r: good way to exercise the unit tests; if they miss something, we'll hear right away from users [11:30]  Neas Bade: but that does tie nicely into test automation to move the stable branch [11:30]  Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: that's almost what i do on opensim.be, except i do not have the unittests - merely if the compile succeeds then i update with the new binary... [11:31]  Neas Bade: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap [11:31]  Charles Krinkeb: Dalien, best to test that the client logs into the new binary to be sure. [11:31]  Neas Bade: been trying to update that on the fly with things poping into my head [11:32]  Dalien1 Talbot: ckrinke: indeed. once there are automated tests for that, I will include them. [11:32]  You: those automated tests, using libsl would be soooo cool [11:32]  Dalien1 Talbot: although this boils down a bit to the unit testing [11:32] Dalien1 Talbot: i assume that every person that commits the code does test that the code actually works :) [11:32]  Neas Bade: yes, I think automated tests with libsl will help a lot. I'm going to start digging into that tomorrow [11:33]  Dalien1 Talbot: there were a couple of glitches - but they are usually caught by the build failures, it seems. [11:33]  You: the problem is testing on all platforms [11:33]  Charles Krinkeb: I believe it is fair to say that code committed denotes responsibility to ensure users on both Linux & Windows have not gone backwards. [11:33]  Dalien1 Talbot: ideally we should have an autobuild for both linux + windows [11:34]  Neas Bade: right, well we need some automation there first, then we can see about that [11:34]  Dalien1 Talbot: so that the windows folks did not have to bother with the linux setup, and vice versa. [11:34]  Neas Bade: we've got opensimulator.org for the linux side [11:34] chill ken: is the stable tag idea due to time between releases being too long? what about doing more minor releases? [11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: neas: ah you started to do the builds there as well ? [11:34] Neas Bade: no, I haven't [11:34]  Neas Bade: but we could [11:34] danxor danx0r: charles: not sure it's reasonable to expect every commit to include full windows + linux tests [11:34] danxor danx0r: unless they are automated [11:34] Dalien1 Talbot: ah ok - because http://ruth.opensim.be/build does do nightly build (nightly CET :) [11:35] danxor danx0r: I try to use my intuition about how far to test each commit [11:35] Neas Bade: yeh, and I think that's fair [11:35] Dalien1 Talbot: yeah i think it is a good approach. [11:35] Neas Bade: if people are running off svn they need to know there are risks there [11:35] Charles Krinkeb: No, but I would suggest it is reasonable that each commit, makes a commitment to ensure the users have moved forward and not backwards. That can be as simple as making sure at least one user compiles and runs on the other platform. [11:35] You: I think almost all, run off svn head [11:35] danxor danx0r: that's exactly why there should be a semi-stable branch for the increasing number of 'power users' who compile but don't typically code [11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: Charles: I do not have the windows environment, and some folks do not have linux. [11:36] Neas Bade: well, I'm actually leaning against the stable tag, as it ends up being a crutch for not releasing more often [11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I would concur with Sean [11:36] Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: maintaining more than one branch is a pain.. [11:36] danxor danx0r: yeah, I think the defacto assumption has been, test n your own machine [11:36] You: I'm leaning towards that point of view too [11:37] danxor danx0r: typically if you're not doing something involving build or native libs, you won't break the other platform [11:37] danxor danx0r: though I did have an exception where mono didn't run something .NET did [11:37] You: the biggest pain is in the native libs [11:37] danxor danx0r: I suppose we could run mono on windows, and say mono is the gold standard for "this build doesn't segfault" [11:37] Neas Bade: I think that people are running on svn because the code is moving fast. We can't keep the code moving fast if we require a full regression test on every checkin :) [11:37] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: indeed [11:38]  danxor danx0r: Tleiades -- I want to talk about the lib problem [11:38]  Neas Bade: yeh, native libs is a beast [11:38]  Neas Bade: danxor: go for it [11:38]  danxor danx0r: I think *all* libs, native or managed, that are not par tof standard build should be in a separate project [11:38]  danxor danx0r: it will have two subfolders, managed & unmanaged [11:38]  danxor danx0r: and each one has folders for each lib [11:39]  danxor danx0r: then a top-level script to (eventually) invoke all the makes [11:39]  danxor danx0r: (though some are VS hand-make only now) [11:39]  Neas Bade: I like that approach [11:39]  danxor danx0r: copy the dll's & so's into bin [11:39]  danxor danx0r: and perhaps create zips -- tho that gets into architecture [11:39]  Neas Bade: I think it would make sense not to polute bin/ with them though [11:39] Neas Bade: it would be nice to have a seperate lib/ [11:39] danxor danx0r: ie, someone somewhere needs to build them for each target supported [11:40] danxor danx0r: neas (sdague?) -- dunno how mono .net deals with looking for them [11:40] danxor danx0r: but keep in mind stuff like ode.net.dll needs to find the unmanged ode.dll [11:40] danxor danx0r: AND, sometimes ode.dll will need to find other native stuff [11:40] You: mono is actually easier than .net I think [11:40] Neas Bade: you just need to add paths in the prebuild.xml [11:40] Neas Bade: or nant [11:40] danxor danx0r: well I don't mind polluting bin, if it's not in subversion [11:41] danxor danx0r: ok I didn't explain right -- [11:41] danxor danx0r: you can choose to build libs, _OR_ you just donwload a zip file [11:41] danxor danx0r: which someone built for your platform [11:41] danxor danx0r: and that zips into bin, or ./lib if you prefer [11:41] danxor danx0r: no binaries in subversion! [11:41] Neas Bade: well, what you are really talking about is opensim-libs releases [11:41] danxor danx0r: yes, right [11:41] Neas Bade: yep [11:42] Neas Bade: I'm all for that [11:42] danxor danx0r: but it's not going to be on the same schedule as opensim commits [11:42] You: I like that too [11:42] Neas Bade: opensim-libs is an svn repo [11:42] danxor danx0r: yup [11:42] danxor danx0r: we can start with just reasonable file organization [11:42] Neas Bade: we can make it an svn external to the main opensim so you can have a single checkout to get the all if you are buliding from source [11:42] danxor danx0r: and the big makefile, all hail the make can come later [11:42] Neas Bade: well, probably we want nant instead of make [11:42] danxor danx0r: because for now, you gotsta do all the README's and INSTALL.txt [11:42] danxor danx0r: for each liv [11:43] danxor danx0r: lib [11:43] danxor danx0r: but at least, these will be the proper versions, [11:43] danxor danx0r: with maybe an opensim README about compile opts [11:43] Neas Bade: ok, danxor, you got the ball for that one? [11:43] danxor danx0r: so you can walk through it and end up at aknown state [11:43] Dalien1 Talbot: hm how do we "freeze" the version of the foreign lib ? [11:43] danxor danx0r: yeah (sigh) [11:43] Neas Bade: to do the new repo [11:43] danxor danx0r: I'll start it [11:43]  Dalien1 Talbot: e.g. libsl [11:44] danxor danx0r: what else besides ode do I need to build? [11:44] danxor danx0r: libsl, [11:44] Neas Bade: libsl [11:44] danxor danx0r: is taht C++? [11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: if we just have it "pull the latest" [11:44] Neas Bade: it's libopenjpeg is the .so [11:44]  danxor danx0r: did we get the version thing right now? [11:44] danxor danx0r: dalien -- "pull the latest" is a problem -- [11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: then the changes in the libsl would break the opensim-libs [11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: precisely [11:44] Neas Bade: dalien, you can set a version number on an svn external IIRC [11:44] danxor danx0r: that's why we need copies of everything -- so we can say [11:44] danxor danx0r: we know this works with opensim [11:44] Neas Bade: sort of like a tag [11:44] danxor danx0r: you want to pull unstable and take a bet, go ahead [11:44] Dalien1 Talbot: or we svn co -r [11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: particular revision number [11:45] Neas Bade: http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/ch07s03.html [11:45] You: we are caught inbetween chairs on libsl [11:45] danxor danx0r: dalien -- well whoever maintains it needs to document what they do [11:45]  danxor danx0r: there may be patches or subtle make changes [11:45] Dalien1 Talbot: cos we'd ideally then need the universal approach to all of the libs [11:45] danxor danx0r: for instance, I modified ODE's build to statically link those stupid msvc dll's [11:46]  danxor danx0r: but at least it's there in svn, in a known state [11:46] Dalien1 Talbot: right... so could do something like gentoo & co - download the version that is needed, unpack, possibly patch, build ? [11:46] You: msvc dll dependencies are always a pain [11:46] danxor danx0r: if someone does somethhing funky, yeah you just svn -r opensim-libs [11:46] danxor danx0r: nice [11:46] Stefan Andersson: Ok, so back. [11:46] Neas Bade: yeh, getting there would be great [11:46] danxor danx0r: tl -- turns out you can just compile statically but no one does [11:46] Stefan Andersson: Wow, quite the turnout. And no sim crashes. [11:46] danxor danx0r: ok I take the ball on this, with my copiouis free time [11:47] You: yes, we do that at my workplace [11:47] Stefan Andersson waves YAY! [11:47] danxor danx0r: I'd love to have another commit-level dev on physics... [11:47] danxor danx0r: no crash because we all stand still with our arms out [11:47] Neas Bade: speaking of physics, how is that all going? [11:47] danxor danx0r: and act like it's IRC [11:47] danxor danx0r: physics update: got a major bug with terrain [11:47] danxor danx0r: strange one, hunting it down [11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Yep, you'all made a very stable sim server. [11:48] danxor danx0r: then some tweaks on bouncinetss [11:48] danxor danx0r: bounciness [11:48] paulie Femto: Howdy hi! [11:48] Neas Bade: hi paulie [11:48] danxor danx0r: darok made some bullet improvements but it needs real work [11:48] You: hi paulie [11:48] danxor danx0r: Gerard did that awesome hollow patch, but it's one of 20+ prim types [11:48] danxor danx0r: all of which can be in combination -- so that's a ton of work [11:48] Neas Bade: are there specific things others can do to help out? [11:49] danxor danx0r: I'd like to pull GErard in if possible [11:49] danxor danx0r: well... [11:50] You: at some point, work on assets will overlap with the prim types [11:50] Neas Bade: right, that's a good point tleiades [11:50] danxor danx0r: help: prim types [11:50] danxor danx0r: yes [11:50] danxor danx0r: it's some wicked stuff [11:51] danxor danx0r: common code to manage it would be great. Not sure who needs to know other than physics + client tho [11:51] danxor danx0r: scripts? [11:51] You: scripts will need it [11:51]  You: to change prims based on scripts [11:51] You: and those changes needs to be persisted into the asset store [11:52] You: I scanned the ll functions today, and all of those functions are not implemented [11:52] Dalien1 Talbot: MW/lbsa: would like to spend 3-4 minutes with you later to discuss the TP stuff...(not to interrupt the physics thread now) [11:53] Charles Krinkeb: TL. Only about a third are implemented. [11:53] Neas Bade: right, I think actually getting assets somewhat more functional is probably required first [11:53] You: yes, I noticed, and for pretty good reasons too [11:53] Neas Bade: which I'm very excited tleiades is digging into so much :) [11:53]  You: I plan on working on that, for a little while [11:53]  Michael Wright: Dalien, okay but think for me at least, its going to have to be tomorrow, been a long day and need to spend some time resting [11:53]  danxor danx0r: other physics issues: [11:54]  danxor danx0r: in my opinion, ODE will not cut it without it being forked and worked on [11:54]  danxor danx0r: it's just too damn unstable numerically [11:54]  Dalien1 Talbot: ok.. actually i think i will need to discuss with Tleiades too :-) [11:54] danxor danx0r: it throws exceptions that need to be handled in C++ [11:54] danxor danx0r: ppl have recommended OGre and other things [11:54] paulie Femto: Hows Bullet comin along? [11:54] Neas Bade: once we get assets working to a reasonable amount, there are a few other folks that I work with that are happy to grind out LSL functions [11:54] danxor danx0r: you sort of need a 'game engine' on top of physics, I've been ad-hacking it [11:55]  danxor danx0r: bullet would need similar investment [11:55] danxor danx0r: but at least it's C# [11:55]  paulie Femto: BulletX is more managed from the start, yeah. [11:55] Neas Bade: danxor, can you explain the difference between what we physics and game engine? [11:55] Neas Bade: in terms of what opensim needs? [11:56] danxor danx0r: well [11:56] danxor danx0r: phsics is very general [11:57] danxor danx0r: objects, vectors, momentum, collision [11:57] danxor danx0r: game engines add character classes [11:57] danxor danx0r: terrain [11:57] danxor danx0r: ability to modify & move stuff around without all hell breaking loose [11:57] danxor danx0r: the character class is probably the most important [11:57] danxor danx0r: and vehicle thingies [11:57] danxor danx0r: it can all be done from scratch, you know, just another layer of code to conceptualize and debug [11:58] danxor danx0r: I started out thinking it would be piece of cake [11:58] danxor danx0r: like everything, turns out it's sort of hard & stuff [11:58] Neas Bade: what do you think the best approach here is in terms of getting there sooner rather than later? [11:58] Neas Bade: :) [11:58]  danxor danx0r: so if someone did it, I'd rather not have to [11:58]  Neas Bade: what, it's not SMOP? [11:58]  danxor danx0r: I think I need to look into what's available for C# [11:58]  danxor danx0r: rather for .NET I guess [11:58]  danxor danx0r: SMOP? [11:59]  Neas Bade: simple matter of programming [11:59]  danxor danx0r: sorry felt the need to collide [11:59]  You: no physics here [11:59]  danxor danx0r: heh [11:59]  Charles Krinkeb: basicphysics only on Sang [11:59]  danxor danx0r: oh well [11:59]  danxor danx0r: so can I walk thru you? [11:59]  danxor danx0r: ok [12:00]  danxor danx0r: hah SMOP exactly [12:00]  Neas Bade: hehehe [12:00]  danxor danx0r: frankly before this project, I poo-pooed "game engines" [12:00]  Charles Krinkeb: "mere implementation detail"? [12:00]  You: can we break the physics thing into smaller pieces? [12:00]  danxor danx0r: I figured I'm a macho programmer, etc [12:00] paulie Femto: Has anyone seen nixnerd around? Anyon eknow if he solved his issues with PHP launching a screen session? [12:00] paulie Femto: brb. door. [12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Sean: Do you envision this as a recurring weekly meeting and if so, where do we meet next Tuesday? [12:02] Neas Bade: ok, I need to run away for a bit and pick up food at the farm here. Can people look at the Roadmap I started at: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Roadmap and embelish with more [12:02] Neas Bade: yes, I think we should try to do this every week [12:02] danxor danx0r: tleiades: one issue with physics is it's wired into the main code kinda slapdash [12:03] Neas Bade: given that we've all gotten a bit more scattered on IRC, it is helpful to have once a week of actually people all being roughly active at the same time [12:03] danxor danx0r: there was talk pre 0.4 of a proper event model [12:03] Charles Krinkeb: This sim is always up [12:03]  Neas Bade: want to repropose event models on the -dev list? [12:03] Tleiades Hax listens [12:03] danxor danx0r: but we'd be more productive chatting if SL chat had name completion like IRC [12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, maybe :) [12:04]  Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: it's a client feature on IRC :) [12:04] You: meeting here, is a good way of keeping track of our progress [12:04] Michael Wright: I think the tuesday meetings every week is good, its a little bit late for me, but we aren't going to get times that are good for everyone, and I guess one bonus of it being at this time on a tuesday is that if we stick to a hour, then Zero's office hour is straight after (ie its just starting now) [12:04] Neas Bade: yeh, that was also a sneaking idea by me :) [12:04]  danxor danx0r: have LL said anything about physics in the WG? [12:04]  danxor danx0r: it seems to get short shrift [12:04]  Neas Bade: nope, not yet [12:05]  danxor danx0r: like "yeah, we'll add some physics spice at the end" [12:05]  Stefan Andersson: Yeah; it's a bit late for me too, I can't do any real work, but as MW said, it's good enough. [12:05]  danxor danx0r: it shoud be a core ingredient, not a condiment :) [12:05] Charles Krinkeb: The best meetings have a beginning, a middle, and most important, an end. [12:05] Neas Bade: honestly, the lindens haven't been big on details for the AWG yet [12:05] Stefan Andersson: Alas, I need to go to bed, as I'm supposed to rise in like 5 hours. [12:05] You: I am so totally at odds with the AWG [12:05] Stefan Andersson: Bye all, ace seeing you all on Sang. [12:05] You: nite [12:05] Neas Bade: nite [12:05] danxor danx0r: well we need to do some wiki work on 0.5 [12:05] Charles Krinkeb: nite all [12:05] Dalien1 Talbot: ok cya Stefan [12:06] danxor danx0r: are we all agreed that there be some sort of physics officially supported? [12:06] Stefan Andersson: (Sang's proabbly gonna be that legendary 'sirst island' that people talk about in SL) [12:06] Neas Bade: well, get over to SL now for Zero's office hours, and you can probably bring it up [12:06]  danxor danx0r: ok [12:06]  danxor danx0r: I'll probably just listen for a bit [12:06] Neas Bade: I took a screen shot [12:06] danxor danx0r: are we breaking up already? [12:06] You: yes [12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: Neas: I'll ping you on SL for a TP ? [12:06] Dalien1 Talbot: I will blog the meeting :) [12:06]  Neas Bade: I plan to do it every week, so we can have an animated progression of opensim [12:06]  danxor danx0r: you look Mahvleous! [12:06]  Neas Bade: catch you all later [12:07]  danxor danx0r: later [12:07]  Neas Bade: dalien, sure [12:07]  You: danxor, I think a lot will want to catch Zero Lindens office hours [12:07]  danxor danx0r: where is zero's office [12:07]  You: hmm... I forgot [12:07]  Dalien1 Talbot: danx0r: ping me on SL in a few - dalien talbot, once I get there via Sean, I TP you too :) [12:07] Dalien1 Talbot: cya on SL... [12:07] danxor danx0r: ok [12:08]  You: should we reconvene? [12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: lets continue in IM on the SL ? [12:08] Dalien1 Talbot: (and could do a group there, i suppose?) [12:08] You: k