Chat log from the meeting on 2011-12-13

[11:02] Snakedance Moonwing: like my rob [11:02] Snakedance Moonwing: i just build it :) [11:03] Second Life: Teleport completed from Lbsa Plaza (128,128,38) [11:03] VivK Lowlag: keyboards in particular [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello [11:03] Marcus Llewellyn: There's the lolcat killer now. ;) [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: been attacked with a dose of flu today [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: uhg that sucks [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hoping the vaccination I had earlier in the year will fend it off [11:04] Sarah Kline: hi Justin [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi sarah, folks [11:04] VivK Lowlag: hi Justin [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: i hear more are sick this days [11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Heya, justin [11:05] VivK Lowlag:. [11:06] Sarah Kline: is it a known bug that the viewer crashes on touching region banlines? [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not heard that one before Sarah [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: ? thats new for me [11:06] Marcus Llewellyn: If the entire region has one, yes. [11:06] Sarah Kline: ooh [11:06] VivK Lowlag: I've had it happen [11:06] koggala benelli: hi sim [11:06] Sarah Kline: i tried in different viewers and its very consistant [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: you mean colliding with the ban line i assume? [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: The simulator tried to stick you on the nearest edge, but never passes you to a neighbor, or tries to TP you home. [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: you crash only when you TP into a private region. at least that happens for me soemtimes [11:07] VivK Lowlag: there was a ban line in Teravus [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: What's more, the position you wind up in is invalid. 256. [11:07] sim core: :-( Hewo, koggala nad all [11:07] Sarah Kline: ok I try to do a mantis then [11:07] VivK Lowlag: hi core [11:07] sim core: *:-) And [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok sounds good Sarah [11:07] Sarah Kline: ) [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: curious. Seen to be getting an awful lot of udp packet loss here today [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: internet with flu ? :O [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you mean on your viewer Justin? [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: heh such a wierd bug [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: the stats are reporting it. It might just be me [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: looks ok for me. bandwidth 500 [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: if you fly up a bit [11:09] Ubit Umarov: my stats show 0 loss [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then hit the home button to fall [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, perhaps just me then [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then hit home button again before you hit the ground [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you get stuck [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine the physics actor is getting removed [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i get sometimes stuck after i have teleported into (my) region. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: if you hit home when falling you will get stuck [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: most you can fix it by TP again into to other coordinate [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt matter how the falling is triggered [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: What is with the blank signs, Marcus? [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: wich home button ? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the home key [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: on your keyboard [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, The image on it hasn't loaded yet [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: ohh intresstingg key. seems to work fine [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hit it again before you hit the ground [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I use that technique when falling from a great height so I don't splat in to the ground [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: dont see it [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i dunno when it started [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: you need to hit it again so you stop falling before you hit the ground [11:12] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks sees a bisect in nebadon's future [11:12] Marcus Llewellyn: I usually use the fly key to stop falling, so never noticed it before myself. [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't get awfully excited about this bug compared to all the others [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: i only see sometimes a frozen avatar after teleport in a place [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not as if it crashes out the viewer or crashes the sim [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: interesting [11:12] sim core: ( I press fly a few times) [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hitting fly button does it too Marcus [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: same here. home is much easyer :) [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah, it isn't that big an issue [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not a big deal Justin [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i only noticed it a couple days ago [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Huh> yeah it does. [11:13] BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it does it on Avination too [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so it might be something with melanies code [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: aha, its like a pause key [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: with the animation stuff [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: thats same effect i get when i TP into a sim sometimes [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: it will probably be a simple fix to ignore the home key press if the avatar is already falling [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: you cant move [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: that would be bad [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its supposed to stop you from falling [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: thinks the problem lay deeper [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: basically hitting home [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: toggles fly/stop flying [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now there is no way to stop falling [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: accept to hit the ground or prims [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: you can't just start flyuing upwards? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: well ya i guess you could [11:15] Ubit Umarov: hmm need to check that on my bugspack [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: but not if you hit fly 1st [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: normal you fly up with the pg-up key [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: and down with pg-down [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: you cant get that precise stoppage [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: well, any fix still might b simple. Just toggle the flying/no flying parameter when home is hit [11:15] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.3 Dev         50eebb5: 2011-12-08 22:00:59 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya i'll file a mantis on it [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive been meaning to [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: any other oddities you guys have noticed ? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I am going to try to get a new OSgrid release out today [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: to fix that LLSD Request issue fixed up [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: Are you going to be using the updated search module? [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Other than being able to log in twice simultaneously? ;) [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew good point, I will do that also [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for reminding me [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: np [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i totally forgot [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: the damn NPC bug i found pretty much ruined my week [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: spent a whole week chasing that [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Next up, you just need to have a web page to allow people to create events :-) [11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Wish we knew what triggered that. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be nice. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not even sure how to go about that [11:18] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey wonders if we're going to get into the time debate again :) [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: still fight with train :O i wish it where possible to make verhicle root prim solid and all child prims phantom. [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: time debate? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: time zones [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: oh [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i honestly do not know how that could even work [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Inworld I just use the time shown in the corner of the viewer [11:19] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn blames the Tardis' proximity on this plaza. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: it maybe possible using the shape=none richards [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya problem is thats 1 hour off here on OSgrid [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: oh [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: people end up missing events [11:19] Ubit Umarov: avoidig changing rules about phanton link [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: unless you change to UTC [11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: Time is really a viewer problem, isn't it? We can talk ourselves blue in the face over it. [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Event data saves both a local time and UTC time [11:19] sim core: :-) Well, linking a prim with a tree and rezzing it back rezzes differently attached trees(-: It's not at all important) [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: aha.. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya the problem is only Imprudence supports displaying UTC [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: and its off by default [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: doens't this same oproblem apply to linden? [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Just have event listing show only UTC time and let people do their own conversion [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: anybody on the pacific coast missing events by an hour? [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: for some reason sometimes my verhicle get set phantom if you rezz. [11:20] Sarah Kline: just tell them to look at the clock on their pc i guess, not the viewer one [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: time is right in SL [11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: Neb, did you ever get the NPC group thing to happen in any other region other than UC? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: for some reason the time is always 1 hour behind on osgrid [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: what does 'right' time mean? [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: singularity shows 24hours clock to neb [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: meaning its not 1 hour behind the actual time Justin [11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: When I show up is the right time. ;) [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: that's kind of odd [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: Marcus, no ive only really tried it with Universal Campus [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: this group thing was happening in a normal region, right? [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I was thinking of setting up an empty mega, and then slowly building it up with prims and then scripts to see if I could find where the tipping point is. [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: No, a mega, Justin. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:22] Sarah Kline: um its 11.22 PST on my viewer which is correct [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens in a normal region? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i imagine it would happen in a single region too [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Nothing bad yet, so far as we've seen. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i'll have to test [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't really fix meagregion bugs [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: yeah, we've only tried it on quiet regions so far, UC is the exception. [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a whole area of code I don't want to go anywhere near because it's so full of it [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think its a mega region bug [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Sarah, yup. same time my viewer shows [11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: Would love to see if it happens here at Wright. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i dont see how mega regions would have any effect on Groups or NPC [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: Mega regions need lots of fixes. so thats (to bad) something for later [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: especially when everything im doing is in the root region [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: still, I would really want to see a repro on a normal region [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see why groups should be affected by a mega. What problems are seen with groups in mega region? [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: I know there's some mega love around, but I'd love to see them deprecated, myself. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunatly i need it to work on Megas [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: or im screwed [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: throw universal campus in the trash pretty much [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Update code to support variable sized regions. :-) [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats a viewer issue [11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Well I think everyone would like that lol [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: megaregion is not a good foundation to build things on [11:24] sim core: :-) [11:24] Arielle Popstar: yes on the variable sized regions if no mega [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: Marcus, with what do you want to replace it then ? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Justin then we should remove it [11:24] Sarah Kline: oh but a region crossing on a campus standalone would not be too bad would it? [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: everything fine, as long you dont have simborders [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: if everyone is going to refuse to work on it [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: it should be removed from the code base [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I don't disagree [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: but maybe somebody else will work on it [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately that would destroy about a year of my work [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I"m not sure, rich. Variable regions are often talked up. But right now megas are more of a liability and drag on dev resources than an asset. [11:25] Sarah Kline: eeps [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: i need it for verhilces [11:25] sim core: :-J All I miss in megas, is the autoreturn to be applied at root and be valid for all regions [11:25] BlueWall Slade: Variable regions would on;y work on viewers that support them, that would be bad [11:25] Ubit Umarov: what is the problem with sim borders? :p [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Publically announce plans to drop support for mega regions from OS as there is no one to work on it and you may find someone steps forward to work on it. [11:26] Arielle Popstar: so then megas is the best option for now [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: honestly the way Aurora does it is not much better [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: because no viewers support it [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: If any progress is made for variable size, then yeah, take megas out. Till then, probably ought to leave it for those who do need them right now, klludgey or not. [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I rtahter doubt that would work [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Perhaps border corssing optimization should be a higher priority. That seems to be the main impetus behind mega use. [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: border crossing can be improved [11:26] BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: why are variable sized regions an issue for viewers? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately that doesnt solve all problems [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: you still can not have prims straddle a border [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: unless its mega [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: BUt even when SL had fairly good border crossing it was still problematic [11:26] Ubit Umarov: scripts sim corssing .. outch [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: you can not place a building on a border [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there a limit in viewer code re: offsets, but if so, wouldn't that also affect megas? [11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Megas solve that one problem really, and introduces a dozen problems. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: so fixing border crossings while nice [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: is still quite lame [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if we can repro the groups issue on a normal regio nthen I can fix and we can go from there [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: then you still have problem with border verhicle crossing [11:27] sim core: :-) Taking out the background stars and cloud to allow replacing with other textures would also be great [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: still means your stuck building in a 256x256 square [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: cant have anything directly on the borders [11:27] Arielle Popstar: i never see all these problems with megas [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: SL and borders, sometimes really painfull. the where better before [11:27] Arielle Popstar: been running thenm for 2 years [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin: Do you know what the group issue is re: mega regions? [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I don't [11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Improved border crossings is a good thing, but you won't ever completely solve things like script crossing. There will always be some issues handing off between regions [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: there is no problem with groups and megas [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dont even know why that is being said [11:28] Ubit Umarov: scripts are the main prob now on sim crossing [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: so you always need mega's until something better appears [11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Neb discovered an issue with NPCs being instantiated in a mega with groups enabled, Andrew. We're not certain what's causing it, exactly. A small region doesn't seem to have the problem. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is with Groups and NPCs [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: as if by magic [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it has absolutely nothing to do wiht megas [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: if i turn combine contiguous off [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: it still happens [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: end of story [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i just never did it in a single sim [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I thought you said you hadn't tested on megaregion? [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, well that's different [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, you had only tested on megaregion [11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: No matter how fast you hand a person something, it still takes time. And there's always a probability of it being dropped. Same with objects, physics and scripts [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: well all i did was turn combine contiguous off [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: and it still happens [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: well that's fine, that's a normal regio ntest [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but i never did it in a single region simulator [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I would like to know whether it can be reproduced in a single region or not [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i can do that easy enough [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: then I have a chance of fixing it more quickly than slowly [11:29] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn is going to experiment with that. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i am pretty sure it will still happen [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt happen in empty single sim [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i did try that [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but ive not tried it in one with substantial amount of content [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: you can only make goood mega's with a good viewer.. and thats one that not exists [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: did you create a mantis on this? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: not yet [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will after we test the single region sim out [11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: It doesn't happen in a slightly build region either. I tried in a simulator with about 6k of prims, and had no issue. [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: if you could that would be good, I can't track all the info, esp. right now with feeling not great [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try it at my OKC Tower region [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: infact [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: let me test it right now [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: only take me like 10 minutes to get setup [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: it would be anyway nice with normal regions that verhciles that hit the simborder dont blow the region or ode.. [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: lots of things would be nice [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: it seems to happen more and more with people [11:35] Sarah Kline: Make a megaprim surround [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: there is some problem with multiple regions and ode [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: which ubit believes he has fixed, I think [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: sarah, many have nighborn sims. so that dont work. [11:35] Arielle Popstar: my region doesnt blow up when you hit it with a vehicle [11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't known regions to blow up from that sort of thing in a good while. Everything else blows up though. [11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Especially whatever tried to cross [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: did you try to drive the verhicle out of your sim arielle [11:36] sim core: :-J Makes me think, anyone else noticed we can fall offworld at east borderwhen it'S sea [11:36] Arielle Popstar: yes Rira [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya that never ends well [11:36] Arielle Popstar: come and try it after the meeting [11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I still discover scripted prims in impossible locations from time to time [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i have seen it myself and with 2 others. the phyics time jumps to 1000ms [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: sooner or later it drags the sim down [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: you dont have a prim borer arielle ?> [11:37] Arielle Popstar: i will invite you to my sim after and you can try to crash it [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: SL sims are easier to crash right now than Opensim lol [11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: We just aren't running the right scripts, prolly. ;) [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: i get me sim many times nuts with verhicles. cpu get crazy [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: ODE is a bit like nirto clyrine. dont shake it to hard [11:38] Arielle Popstar: i am running vehicles with Nebs motors [11:38] sim core: :-) All in all, I find things work well and I'm not expecting physics to be great untill we use a commercial version like havok [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: brb 1 sec [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: hi sim [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: gotta go enable building on my Tower [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: ode work not bad [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: What's the state of work on Physics for OS? I find the fireworks device I brought over from SL still doesn't launch the firework up in to the air [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Is anyone actively working on BUllet right now? [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: you only need to know the trip[ wires [11:39] sim core: :-J Hi, Richardus and everyone [11:39] Arielle Popstar: Hi Sim [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I believe intel plan to do some more work on it [11:39] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn hasn't heard much about Bullet in a few weeks now. [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: otaku, I have hear of someone working on it but forget who it was [11:40] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks thinks it was Tom Griffith, or Griffin (possibly) [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: It at least is hooked in and available now, so that's a big start. :) Just needs refinement [11:40] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods [11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I think it's still missing a few features as well, but yeah. [11:40] Ubit Umarov: radams is workin on bullet [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I should try it in my standalone and see if the fireworks thing works. [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah, cool [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Right, radams [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it still happens on single region [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the number of prims and scripts plays a factor for sure [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: How many on that one? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: let me check [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: 14k prims and 700 scripts [11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Is it a sinbgle parcel? [11:42] Marcus Llewellyn whispers: single* [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the sim stats cut in 1/2 [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: no its like 2 or 3 parcels [11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: UC has multiple as well, correct? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: it may have 1 parcel [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: oh, i saw you can point opensim to a seperate lsl instance or so, anyone tried something with that ? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember if i removed that or not though [11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: Just a radnom though anyway. Heh [11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: thought* [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Been tring to think of things that might invoke groups oon an NPC. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... Bullet needs to be compiled in or just installed as external library? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: the impact was not as bad at the tower as it was at the campus [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but its still noticeable [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: 4 NPCs [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and the stats cut by 50% [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: went down to like 25fps [11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: That's still not many. [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, checks for undelivered group messages [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and noticeable rubberbanding [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: and no problem at all if groups are disabled? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: right [11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: None. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: problem completely disappears [11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Smooth as butter. Dozens of NPCs. [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: any idea if this occurs in places other than osgrid? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i had like 50 npcs [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no lag [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: well [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we both configured a standalone [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but pointed it to OSgrids groups [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Any messages on console? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and same thing occured [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no console messages [11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: We've done it on a standlone, but always with XMLRPC groups. I don't think we've tried it with something like simian. [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: hmm [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: heh testing with simian would be major pain in the ass [11:46] sim core: :-J [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: simian not a bit outdated ? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i dont even know any other grids with groups that runs a new enough version of opensim for NPCs [11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: I've set up simian, but not recently. It's not something I'd want to have to do just to test a single bug. [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, don't worry about it [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya its pretty tough to test [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus signs has a typo. "In In UR assets" -> one too many In's [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: being we only have 1 implementation of groups [11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: I didn't make the lolcat pic. ;) [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean a grid which didn't have any of the other IM, etc, stuff active [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: but I wouldn't worry about it too much [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: we tested all that [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i turned off everything [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: ha [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: used a completely fresh from git opensim.ini [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: it was fine [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, thanks [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: that's great [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: all i did was enable groups [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and boom [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: There is another issue I just thought of to ask about [11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: With *only* groups enabled, and almost everything else not needed to do small things like enable NPCs, massive lag happens. [11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: We're talking an almost stock git config, with groups enabled. [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, I could give you a few extra lines to have groups on the webserver log requests in case enabling group is hitting the webserver hard [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: I have no doubt its groups [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: it only happens with NPCs [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: this is not normal avatars causing the problem [11:49] BlueWall Slade: do they belong to groups? [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: no, they can't [11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: NPCs? No. [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: but it appears they get into some kind of evil loop maybe [11:49] Arielle Popstar: ahh no social life for them? [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: If they can't, it shouldn't matter if groups is on or not. [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: trying to request group data [11:49] BlueWall Slade: a real avatar - does it have a default group when it's created? [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: there is no default group unless groups is disabled [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: well, the logging at webserver end would let you see if any group requests from NPC is getting through [11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: NPCs themselves never request group info, or interact with groups. But other things may attempt to request group info about NPCs, not knowing they aren't just another user agent. [11:50] BlueWall Slade: you can see the requests in the server log [11:50] BlueWall Slade: + you can turn the debugging up in the groups [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Possibly some bad continual request retry is happening somewhere which doesn't get surfaced to log [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I will hav eto invetigate [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ok thanks [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: anything we can do to help let us know [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: knowing if the groups service is being pounded would be helpful [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it literally took us a week to even realize it was groups [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: in OpenSim.ini there's a debug setting you can turn on [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: well the problem is OSgrids groups gets pounded [11:51] Ubit Umarov: maybe there should be a "none" virtual group [11:51] BlueWall Slade: I noticed that it does make a lot of calls to that when a user enters a sim [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: isolating info might be difficult [11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: Could tail the php log on the groups apache server to find out. [11:51] Ubit Umarov: parcel rights checks etc ask for group [11:52] Ubit Umarov: ( i guess ) [11:52] BlueWall Slade: need a small test setup to test it [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Things go to pot just by having groups enabled with a few NPC's logged in? (trying to get summary) [11:52] BlueWall Slade: (in isolation) [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya but the logs dont tell you much [11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: Ideally, the server would do an IsNpc check on things like groups, where suitable. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: let me have a look [11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: I would imagine, anyway [11:52] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey eagerly awaits the patch from Marcus :) [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, That would be a good idea [11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Justin. I'm itching to submit patches. I'm starting to wrap my head around certain things. I just have to wrap my head around git and how to submit a proper patch. :P [11:53] BlueWall Slade: $debugXMLRPC = 2; $debugXMLRPCFile = "/tmp/xmlrpc.log"; [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: git format-patch [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya the groups apache logs are useless [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: this is what it looks like [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 19600 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1653 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1774 "-" "-" 127.0.0.1 - - [13/Dec/2011:19:53:56 +0000] "POST /xmlrpc.php HTTP/1.0" 200 1653 "-" "-" [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: well, you can turn on debug on opensim side to see outgoing requests [11:54] BlueWall Slade: the access_log? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: thats the apache log [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I've modified the PHP code to log the request string [11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: You can do a live tail command on it, neb. Basically watch it crawl by on console. If groups is getting slammed, you'd see log spew when you created NPC on a problematic region. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i thought it already had that kind of logging [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: in the past when debugging stuff where PHP on a webserver came in to play. [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: just switch DebugEnabled = true in [Groups] in OpenSim.ini [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but i remember it being so spammy [11:54] BlueWall Slade: URI: http://74.237.137.28:31800/ INSERT INTO channels (channel, uri) VALUES ('664a2267-5e15-49a8-8a0c-0b52a1b07deb','http://74.237.137.28:31800/') ON DUPLICATE KEY UPDATE uri = 'http://74.237.137.28:31800/'Channel: 5e657480-96e4-4468-8688-a3a98f7fa779 URI: http://74.237.137.28:31800/ INSERT INTO channels (channel, uri) [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: to be almost uselss [11:55] BlueWall Slade: that is the xmlrpcgroups log @ 2 [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: it is very spammy, but it would tell if the npcs are continually spamming groups requests [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: can you point the groups debug to seperate file ? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: what i could do [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Do NPC's always get same UUID's? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: that's really all I need to know [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: is make a copy of xmlrpc.php [11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: No, they do not. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: to xmlrpc2.php [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: noooo [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and point my sim to that [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: so i isolate my sim only [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and not the entire grid [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. Would have allowed filtering based on UUIDs [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: just turn it on at the simulator side, for god's sake [11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: NPCs are a bit like dynamic textures that way. They always have a different UUID, and that UUID is only valid on the simulator they were created. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: oh how Justin? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: DebugEnabled = true in [Groups] [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i must have missed something [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: oh [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:56] BlueWall Slade: groups.getAgentGroupMembership     GroupID   9084e865-5063-4b7b-94be-dec1b5f3e481     RequestingSessionID   00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000     ReadKey   71     AgentID   7e7dc733-d584-45c0-9066-d3ad6b5c2989     RequestingAgentID   00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000     RequestingAgentUserService       WriteKey   71        [11:56] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:56] Ubit Umarov: dump npcs out :p [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ok sim is rebooting [11:56] Arielle Popstar: why are NPC's so important to Opensim? [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. Typical string passed to PHP code [11:56] Arielle Popstar: they'e just bots [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and? [11:57] Ubit Umarov: bots should be done by clients not sims uff [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Automated help assistance. Role playing regions. Fashion models. Pets. you name it, they're useful. [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: um... Bluewall, RequestingSessionID is a NULL UUID?? [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit, i completely disagree [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: using clients is horrible [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: very high overhead [11:57] BlueWall Slade: that was just something I ran across in the debug files [11:57] Ubit Umarov: but should be the right way really [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: and co-ordination issues [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Bot have a lot of overhead. They need a lot more memory, a lot more network resources. [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, what group is 9084e865-5063-4b7b-94be-dec1b5f3e481? [11:58] BlueWall Slade: 1 sec [11:58] Ubit Umarov: sims should concentrate on humans ;) [11:59] Ubit Umarov: so you put overhead on sims Marcus ? [11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: I actually agree that NPCs shouldn't hardly be a tip-top priority. But they're still a useful feature that a lot of people will find valuable. [11:59] sim core: :-J In that sense, physics could also be done client side [11:59] BlueWall Slade: Test 00 [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: How do you make an NPC to test? [12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSLNPC [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, ok. So that is a valid group but I don't like that the requesting Session ID was null UUID [12:00] BlueWall Slade: that module gets hammered looking up group perms for things [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: they are asking for group data [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: the NPC's [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, continuoiusly? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: no