Chat log from the meeting on 2015-03-10

 [11:02] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't see any errors. I'm not HGed in though. [11:02] Shez Oyen: I'm am getting a flood of .. "Primitive: llSetPrimitiveParams: Error running rule #2: arg #0 - unsupported parameter" [11:02] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:02] Connected [11:02] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:02] Shez Oyen: someones attatchments are wonkie? [11:02] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm getting those too [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone must have messed up the rules in the call, Shez [11:02] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:02] Connected [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, it's been happening for the last few weeks [11:02] Shez Oyen: wow [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: any time anyone enters the region it throws up a new one [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: only happens here...not on any other grids [11:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Anyone else encountered border crossing issues when offline regions are nearby? [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it happens in all OSG regions [11:03] Shez Oyen: Yes Otaku!! [11:03] Shez Oyen: I have been griping about that for months [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Heya Justin [11:04] Shez Oyen: that many people aren't entering :/ [11:04] BlueWall Slade: Hi jcc [11:04] Hiro Protagonist: hey Justin :D [11:04] Shez Oyen: Hi Justin :) [11:04]  OtakuMegane Desu: Teravus and Seaprior Plazas are a good demo at the moment [11:05]  OtakuMegane Desu: I did track down the commit it happened in. There was a change that delayed agent transfer until all the communication was done because otherwise some things could get messed up. [11:05]  OtakuMegane Desu: Unfortunately that apparently means if child agents in nearby regions don't respond, you can't go anywhere [11:06]  Shez Oyen: I wish "someone" would fix that Otaku! a lot of my neighbrs crash on purpose to save their spots.. makes region line crossing a real pain on your own regions [11:07]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well with OSGrid down soon after that commit, offline regions are not probably a big thing most other places so it doesn't show up so much. [11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, I see those errors in the debug dialog box. Someone should check the region console and find out what device is throwingthe errors. [11:07] OtakuMegane Desu: People are probably running into it a lot now but chalk it up to the usual bugginess or something. [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: which commit? [11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's not a device...it's a profile fetch error on every single agent entering the region [11:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Gimme a sec [11:08] Ezequiel Menna: oh Aine [11:08] Ezequiel Menna: are you Danger friend? [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes [11:08] Ezequiel Menna: i see :) [11:08]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi is Online [11:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: 4c5d7d4683e34f9ac061da649ebf29e23d612faf [11:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: The messages about errors in llSetPrimitiveParams should go to the owner of the device and not to everyone in the region [11:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: Back on 7/10 last year [11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, the errors are coming from a device near 52.45, 213.19 [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: I see. Do you know if there is a Mantis for this? [11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Too bad it didn't show the Z [11:10]  OtakuMegane Desu: In console it's usually Slow-RPC messages that take 10-30 seconds to timeout that I rarely see any other time [11:10]  OtakuMegane Desu: And no, I haven't found any other mantis about it [11:10]  Shez Oyen: Robert I hope you mange to rez.. it's almost good to see you ;) [11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Haven't had a chance to file one myself XD [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: so there is no bug report for it? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi is Online [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was kind of curious to find out how long the inventory fetch would continue on my most recent hang....I left it overnight and it was still going strong when I got up the morning so if you'd like a nice 46GB log file I can arrange for a truck to ship it to you [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: ok. It woudl be good to have one. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: sorry I am late [11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope, not to my knowledge [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: hello nebadon [11:11] BlueWall Slade: Hi Neb [11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: I was trying to poke at it a bit more before making one and got sidetracked by life for a while [11:12] Shez Oyen: Greetings Neb :) [11:12]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi: Hello all:) [11:12] BlueWall Slade: Hi AlexRime [11:12] Shez Oyen: Hi Alex :) [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: yeah thanks. Good concise info is very helpful, though identifying the commit is very good. I can imagine offline regions may be an issue with this change [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: otaku:so what happens - the agent just slides against the border? [11:14]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. It behaves kind of like when there's no region at all. Once the requests time out then you can cross. But going back you have to wait all over again. [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: and this happens on the first try? [11:14]  Shez Oyen: I tried shortening that time-out but it didn't help enough to notice [11:14]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. And most every subsequent try as well. [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: and this is with neighbours that are registered but not actually online? [11:15]  Shez Oyen: Yes Justin [11:16]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Seaprior and Teravus plazas both have at least one or two neighbors down since the grid came back up and have been a pretty good demo so far [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: otaku: ok, I will try and take a look. I made a not disimilar change recently (beef41f) which stopped sims trying to contact registered but offline regions in another context. Possibly the same could be done here [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: but it would be very good to have a bug report to track this as well [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: After the meeting I'll see if I can dig up the console messages and make one. [11:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.1.0 Dev        00b5b91: 2015-03-07 17:47:40 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [11:18] Shez Oyen: Robert fixed it so an unwary new person could not accidently set up their regular region so that it overlaps a varregion. Does this not work the other way around? Like can a new var overlap another persons regions? Seems logical that it would work both ways but does it? [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: it should work that way too [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: z [11:21]  Robert Adams: I believe it does check for any overlap [11:21] Shez Oyen: these errors are like every second? [11:21] Shez Oyen: Thanks Robert.. there are people griping on the forum that vars are overlapping them [11:21] Shez Oyen: I didn't think that was possible [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: if i remember there is some config that can turn the check off... but I thought the default was to have the check [11:23] Freaky Tech: hi [11:23]  Shez Oyen: Hiya Freaky :) [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: couldit just be child agents in their regions fromthe var? [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Freaky Tech [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello freaky [11:23]  Freaky Tech: so unused to that slow loading of inventory ;) [11:25] Freaky Tech: neever mind just takes longer to bake then ;) [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: z [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone who is interested and did not see my email on the mailing lists earlier, the OSCC grid is fully operational again [11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: oh, right. it was about the OSCC grid. That didn't quite register. [11:28]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi: Than was the reason we has no server backup? [11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: Sort of thought it was still OSG related at first. [11:28]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi: I cost us half year of offline [11:29]  Marcus Llewellyn: OSCC grid, AlexRime. Not OSGrid. [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its a different grid [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: the OpenSImulator Community Conference grid [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: http://cc.opensimulator.org:8002 [11:29]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi: And OSCC have server backup now:)? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: to hypergrid [11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: OSCC really only needs to be up for the conference. Uptime other than that is just a bonus. :) [11:29] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it appears that functionality of setting a region to disallow HG direct tp is broken [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it was down intentionally [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: for upgrades [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: had to reload Linux [11:30]  BlueWall Slade: what dod you load on it? [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: opensuse 13.1 [11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: Data recovery worked well. I don't have a lot of inventory but I seem to have all the items I had before. [11:30]  BlueWall Slade: + [11:30]  Marcus Llewellyn: Raspian! >:) [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it was running 11.4 [11:30] BlueWall Slade: wow [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: had kernel 2.6 lol [11:30] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: trouble is I haven't had time to do several hundred builds to figure out what git it was broken in [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: tad bit old [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, Raspian. :D [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: has mono 3.12.1 now and the latest version of opensim [11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Next year it should be hosted all on Pis, says I. ;) [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: i did move my Raspberry Pi region here to OSgrid now [11:31]  Marcus Llewellyn: Neato. :) [11:31] Freaky Tech: did anyone of you take a peek on http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7493 ? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: OKC Raspberry Pi2 [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I have my Pi B but I'm still looking at getting a 2B [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: I saw that Freaky i had planned to take a look at it myself [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but have not had time yet [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: maybe someone will get a chance to test it before i can [11:33] Freaky Tech: test it on var regions as well because it tracks what is sent to viewer to the agent about what terrain patch [11:33] Freaky Tech: and tracks changes [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:33] Freaky Tech: despite fixing a MTU bug inside terrain patch sending [11:35] BlueWall Slade: that one slipped by me :) [11:35]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We have the patch running on several regions, both var and regular sizes. We have not specifically tested for the issues it addresses, but seems to run without issue. [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: i think it got added yesterday? [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: to mantis that is [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: that was when i first noticed anyway [11:35]  Freaky Tech: yes was yesterday [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: + [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: I know we talked about it. [11:35]  Freaky Tech: bug fixing and implementation was around saturday [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: cool Billy [11:36]  BlueWall Slade: I'll test it after the meeting [11:36]  Freaky Tech: porting was yesterday [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks BlueWall [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ive been very busy [11:36]  Freaky Tech: a standard region with flat terrain loads in three UDP messages with that patch [11:36] BlueWall Slade: me too :s [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: still wrapping up from FCVW too [11:36] Freaky Tech: whereas the old code needed 64 [11:36] BlueWall Slade: ohh yeah [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: why is OpenSimTerrainCompressor OpenSim/Region/Framework/Scenes but in the OpenSIm.Region.ClientStack.LindenUDP namespace? [11:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes we did observe the reduction in data [11:37] Freaky Tech: Justin that patch moves the TerrainCompressor anyways [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: ft: yes, though it would seem to me very lindenudp related, so I'm wondering why it isn't there [11:38] Freaky Tech: the problem is HeightmapTerrainData is not there so TerrainCompressor has mainly to go where the compressed terrain patches are hold [11:38] Freaky Tech: for continuous usage [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: I'm sorry but I cant get a browser to play nice and open that link [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: does that have to do with the problem of sending large blocks of region info and vars blocking after right clicks in the scene? [11:40] Freaky Tech: it tracks changes and what an avatar has already got of the terrain data [11:40] Freaky Tech: so no resend when it is already transmitted [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: ft: where is that forced? I don't see any obvious reason why it couldn't be in LindenUDP [11:40] Freaky Tech: your assembly structure [11:40] Freaky Tech: I cannot link OpenSim.Framework to Opensim.Region.Framework and back [11:40] Freaky Tech: circular dependency issue [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: where do you need to do that? [11:41] Freaky Tech: to keep the terrain patches hold for longer use [11:41] Freaky Tech: I have to keep track on the HeightmapTerrainData what has changed [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: for terrain editing? [11:41] Freaky Tech: and compress only when needed [11:42] Freaky Tech: HeightmapTerrainData knows about updates [11:42] Freaky Tech: adding another event mess would be just horrid [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: ft: ok, I see you make a call in TerrainData.GetCompressedPatch [11:42] Freaky Tech: because it is hard to track [11:42] Freaky Tech: exactly [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but adding UDP stuff into OpenSim.Framework is also a long term pita [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe fine in the short term but in the best world would not be that way forever [11:43] Freaky Tech: Justin when I look through the whole code the Linden specific stuff is everywhere [11:43] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though there's a differene between linden stuff and linden udp stuff [11:43] Freaky Tech: Justin does it make sense to kill lots of CPU power by recompressing terrain on every terrain sending? [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not saying there might not also be udp stuff in OpenSim.Framework but that in itself is an eyesore [11:44] Freaky Tech: to get that stuff out there it would have required a far larger patch [11:44] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: ft: no, I'm not saying that. But I'm sure tehre's a better solution that doesn't involve stuffing things in Framework [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: ft: yes, and that should be separate - but at some point such a patch should exist [11:44] Shez Oyen: Dahlia :) [11:44]  Freaky Tech: actually HeightmapTerrainData says that the actual code is Linden optimized [11:45]  Freaky Tech: with that extreme separation you actually added borders for some pieces being able to work well [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: me? [11:46]  Freaky Tech: and you know what is a major eyesore and headache [11:46]  Freaky Tech: calling namespaces Framework [11:46]  Freaky Tech: they tend to get filled like a mixed supermarket [11:47]  Freaky Tech: so just to give an oppinion what I think about namespacing. do not feel offended by that. [11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: lots of eyesores in opensimulator code lol [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: ft: I don't, though I don't really agree [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't like adding more eyesores [11:48]  Freaky Tech: have seen lots of projects that used that framework concept and that massive workarounds for getting parts to resolve circular dependencies [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: because then when they need to be changed later there will be a lot of complaints about changes [11:48] Freaky Tech: if you have a good idea for moving modules, go ahead. [11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm not remotely qualified to have an opinion on the elegance of OpenSim's internals, so I'm sorry if this is out of line. But if it comes down to a choice between waiting for a rearchitecture of opensim, or implementating a patch with immediate benefits, I'm kinda for the patch being accepted. [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: gotta bail ;) thanks to all you physics and vehicle devs ;) [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's why I think it's unavoidable in the shoirt term [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: o/ [11:49]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Marcus ++ [11:49] Freaky Tech: I have never assumed, that it might stay where it is for all time. [11:49] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: We need buildoard of active regions with TP points in Plaza. Same as we have UserInWorld in osgrid.org Many newcommers even don't know about that page. It will connect active regions. [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: (thanks everyone else too :D) [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: it's still an eyesore [11:49] BlueWall Slade: see ya Hiro [11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: B'bye Hiro :) [11:49]  Freaky Tech: it was before Justin already [11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: yes, changing stuff for asthetic reasons is not good because people downstream have dependent code [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: Yeah, I think we shold take any good optimizations in with an eye for reorganizing and cleaning later. [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: and then you can never refactor to actually allow a proejct to continue forward [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: but we've been down this path before, I'm not interested in rehashing it now [11:50]  AlexRime SiLiSiLi: OS demolish our office in Plaza with no reason at all. It is hurt bro [11:51]  Freaky Tech: Justin you had missed several refactoring in the last years. [11:51]  Freaky Tech: they are already making things hard to optimize [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: ft: yes, and forks have done such massive changes [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: with accompanying massive success [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: if you want to do major refactor, do it to opdate to a more modern architecture (hierarchical entity-component) rather than just for asthetic reasons [11:53] BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:53] Freaky Tech: asthetics fixes are nice but do not bring a project a lot forward [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: and for every person who likes a certain asthetic design, theres others who prefer it another way [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: its very subjective [11:54] Freaky Tech: that is a real truth [11:54] BlueWall Slade wonders how al the asset name and description stuff ws never cleaned out when it started going to inventory. [11:55] Freaky Tech: refactoring is a process you need to do continuously [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: refactoring can also introduce regressions [11:55] Freaky Tech: sometimes a not so perfect thing according to asthetics has to be done at some point to get forward [11:57] Freaky Tech: defining an Interface and an implementation of it in the same .cs file is not really well structured at all [11:57] Freaky Tech: that is the case with HeightmapTerrainData anyways [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: defining an interface for a single implementation is probably not the best practice either [11:58] Freaky Tech: Dahlia I agree with that [11:58] BlueWall Slade: I guess much of our modules can be overwritten by third parties with that though. [11:58] Dahlia Trimble: maybe [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: hey Richardus, guess you didnt know about the time change eh? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: DST strikes again [11:58] Dahlia Trimble: if the interface is well thought out, many arent tho [11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi all [11:59] Freaky Tech: I did gothrough probably 60-70% of source code [11:59] Kayaker Magic: Daylight Wastings Time is such a waste of time.... [11:59] Dahlia Trimble would prefer year long DST ;) [12:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: ^ [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I'm off to take care of business. Goodbye everyone. [12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: tc justin [12:00]  Marcus Llewellyn: Take care Justin. [12:00]  Freaky Tech: bye Justin [12:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bye Justin [12:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: bye