Chat log from the meeting on 2010-01-26

[11:03] Sarvana Cherry is Online [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: it lives!!! [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: lol [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: its alive again [11:04] Entering god mode, level 255 [11:05] Pete Skysmith: hi everybody [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi, again.. [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Pete [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh scripts are still starting [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: justin can better rebake, looks black for me [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i see justin black also [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: this screen is sitting on my 4th monitor, so the avatar is fscked up [11:08]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: lol 3 screens not enough ? :) [11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: my attachments do not work [11:08]  Snoopy Pfeffer: grrr [11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: no - 4 screens is my minimum :) [11:08] Adam Frisby: I was wondering why there was so many people logged in. [11:08] Adam Frisby: I popped in to check it out, without realise it was a meeting day. =p [11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: yaay, no hair or boots... hello everyone :) [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: hello snoopy, adam, adelle [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: heh try rezzing your hair on the ground [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hi snoopy [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: then reattach stuff [11:09]  Hiro Protagonist: hey everbodeh [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hi hiro [11:09]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh, just lag i think [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: seems like we are getting some kind of texture queue jam ups under load [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: isn't it some ridiculous time in the morning over in Australia? [11:10]  Adam Frisby: 6:00AM [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: not yet gone to bed or just got up? [11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: what is this thing you call 'bed' [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:11]  Adam Frisby: Yeah, I totally dont sleep. [11:11]  Adam Frisby: Been up since like 8PM yesterday [11:11]  Adam Frisby: Australia day fireworks woke me up [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't know about you folks but unfortunatley I need a good 7 or 8 hours - it's my weakness [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if i sleep 8 hours im ruined [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: :) [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i might as well not get out of bed that day [11:11]  Hiro Protagonist: I need about seven but usually get closer to 5 [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: 5-6 tops for me [11:12]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i thought a lack of sleep was an opensim core requirement? [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: but i usually do take a short afternoon nap [11:12]  Hiro Protagonist: lol [11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: not onl;y yours JCC [11:12]  OtakuMegane Desu: . [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'd like to take an afternoon nap too but I don't often get that luxury. Oh well [11:13]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i usually make up for it at weekends [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: Adelle: I'm one of the few normal people ;) [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill get maybe 12-14 hours on a weekend hehe [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya working from home has ruined me [11:13]  Melanie Milland doesn't sleep [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: have the feeling JCC keeps a mirror in front of me. [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: how so? [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: i like a nap in the evening to, wel i need it [11:14]  Adam Frisby: so, anyone seen the video Rex put out of Naali in the last two days? [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: got a link? [11:15] Adam Frisby: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iiE66hY-RU [11:15] Pete Skysmith: i didn't [11:15]  Adam Frisby: Naali is looking really, really impressive. [11:15] Adam Frisby: I'm glad they begun implementing a standard GUI & application workflow. [11:16] Adam Frisby: It looks nice, and also looks like some parts have had some forethought gone into how they work; like the communications manager (although I'd still tweak it.) [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: looks nice [11:16] Adam Frisby: The good news with Naali is it is apache 2, and they followed the same 'code taint' rules as opensim-core (6 months), so any opensim dev can safely work on it [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: Andy Naali looks like some kind of zombie [11:17] Adam Frisby: downside is it's Qt/C++, so it does require a more intensive build toolchain for windows users. [11:17] Adam Frisby: although Linux users should be at home./ [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: does eclipse not solve the problem for windows ? [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it builds/works under linux? [11:18] Melanie Milland: it does [11:18] Adam Frisby: Yeah it runs under Windows, Linux & mac [11:18] Melanie Milland: still a couple of hiccups with keyboard input [11:18] Melanie Milland: last time i checked [11:18] Melanie Milland: but that is actively worked on [11:18]  Adam Frisby: Richardus: Qt requires a special precompiler called 'moc' (I think that is the right one) [11:18] Adam Frisby: which has to be integrated into your build chain with visual studio et al. [11:18]  Melanie Milland: adam, that's part of the qt toolchain, yes [11:19] Melanie Milland: qmake will create a VS makefile [11:19] Melanie Milland: that you can import [11:19] Adam Frisby: Great, I want to take a crack at the Naali code when the other half dozen things on my plate are off it. [11:19] Melanie Milland: or just do an nmake build [11:19] Adam Frisby: So yeah; soon there wont be much of an excuse behind "well we cant touch the viewer" [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe wont that be nice [11:20] Adam Frisby: No kidding. [11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: We need something different anyway. There seems to only be so much you can do with the current engine. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya the trick is not loosing any of the current stuff too though [11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: is LL also working on 3d meshes for avatars and objects? [11:20] Adam Frisby: The current SL engine is opaque to us; we cant edit it -- which means feature extensions are crippled. [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: it'll be nice to just not have to hear viewer devs complain about that anymore [11:21] Adam Frisby: Snoopy: yes/no. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: as long as the trade off is not too high [11:21] Adam Frisby: LL said they still are working on it; but who knows when it will be shown to the public. [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: honestly, I dont think it matters as much as it is widely held to [11:21]  Adam Frisby: Given they are busy working on "SL2" which has priority, might be a while. [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: ok [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: personally I dont think LL mesh support will look all that much differnt than their sculpty support either [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i think its going to fall short of everyones expectations of what mesh can be [11:21]  Adam Frisby: I suspect LL mesh import will be 1998-era meshes [11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: SL2? Great [11:22] Adam Frisby: No shaders, no material scripts. [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh oh [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:22]  Adam Frisby: Just very simple diffuse-mapped meshes. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be sculpty 2.0 [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: a viewer that can be adapted / have new extensions would be nice. then its easyer to fix bugs to. [11:22] Adam Frisby: Certainly nothing with say mesh animation. [11:22] Adam Frisby: deformability, shaders or anything fancy [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: atleast initially [11:22] Melanie Milland: tbh, i don't see the existing hardware handle that [11:23] Melanie Milland: not at the density of SL [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: can the realxtend meshes be supported by standard opensim in the future - I mean like on some regions in osgrid? [11:23] Melanie Milland: and density = money [11:23] Adam Frisby: Melanie: well with meshes you need less objects to represent the same sscene. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats why its going to basiclly be nothing more than Sculpty 2.0 [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it will be more efficient than sculpt cause the files should be smaller [11:23] Adam Frisby: Prims are artificially dense --- notice how prim counts on average dropped when sculpties came out. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: easier to transport [11:23] Adam Frisby: It'll be the same thing. [11:23] Adam Frisby: Megaprims help the situation immensely too [11:23] Melanie Milland: i mean sim density per cpu [11:23] Adam Frisby: LBSA plaza is only like 680 prims [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: meshes are not worse than many linked prims [11:24] UUID Speaker: yukio chun: ea7aed24-6c49-6474-f519-bdb906a1fe77 [11:24] Melanie Milland: of they would do deformable meshes [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well you will have to make things phantom [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats all [11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: But LL makes a lot of their money off land, and one of the best tools to keep people buying more is the prim count [11:24] Melanie Milland: the physics of it would mean 1 server = 1 sim [11:24] Adam Frisby: Deformable meshes would be clientside I imagine [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are going to mesh it proper anyway [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: want to bet money their meshes colide as primitive shape? [11:24] Adam Frisby: No real practical way to do network transmission of that at the current point in time. [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: only a good simple userfriendly sculpt tool is missing [11:24] Adam Frisby: Neb: or are phantom [11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: that would be bad [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: oh it will be that way [11:24] Melanie Milland: it'll look shiny [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt [11:25] Melanie Milland: but be functionally lacking [11:25] Melanie Milland: like all they do [11:25]  Adam Frisby: I'm more interested in the new global illumination model coming with meshes. [11:25] Adam Frisby: That is much more interesting to me. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya windlight is cool [11:25] Adam Frisby: Of course, Naali has that now I think. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but its highly unrealistic in terms of lighting [11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: Naali has windlight? [11:25] Adam Frisby: Nah, global illumination, or something similar. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Ogre has a windlight alternative [11:25] Adam Frisby: Caelum [11:26] Adam Frisby: http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/Caelum [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Windlight always seemed fine to me, though a bit crude on some points. [11:26] Snoopy Pfeffer: do they have voice as replacable module? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not bad [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its just not realistic [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: at all [11:26] Adam Frisby: But no, I mean global illumination as in ambient occlusion, etc. [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its very video gameish [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: nintendo type lighting [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, light going through walls is probably the biggest problem lol [11:26] Adam Frisby: Otaku: that is what global illumination fixes [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: I figured [11:26] Adam Frisby: It's a very significant change [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest problem for LL though is like melanie_T said [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 70% of their population still having crap hardware [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: that can barely play anything modern [11:27] Adam Frisby: yup [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: that looks kinda wicked [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its like XP era hardware [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 2001'ish [11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: :) [11:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well it wouldn't be so bad if the viewer made better use of resources :/ [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: I had a look at the latest version of the 3Di OpenViewer [11:28]  Adam Frisby: The SL viewer cannot be critiqued on performance honestly [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that can be integrated in a web page [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that is even worse lol [11:28]  Adam Frisby: It throws so many polygons at the video card it is stunning [11:28]  Melanie Milland: efficient resource usage and multiplatform support are mutually exclusive [11:28]  Adam Frisby: Very simple polygons mind you -- nothing with shaders/etc to process [11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: i know some peolple that run SL on 5-7 year old hardware. and then the complain about problems with building and lag [11:28]  Adam Frisby: But the sheer quantity is impressive. [11:28]  Melanie Milland: since you cen' be efficient on wondows without DX [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i dunno [11:28] Melanie Milland: and that's unavailable anywhere else [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OpenGL is no worse on windows than linux [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: from my experience [11:29] Adam Frisby: Neb; it is more than DX > OpenGL [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: not in video game land [11:29] Melanie Milland: yes, but DX outperforms OGL on windows [11:29] Adam Frisby: OGL is dead. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: no doubt about that [11:29] Melanie Milland: coding to DX means windows-only [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: and now ? openDX ? [11:29] Adam Frisby: Richardus: good luck. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OGL is too driver dependant [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: thas the problem [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its too dependant on hardware makers [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: to keep it updated [11:30] Adam Frisby: Honestly, OpenGL is terrible - but there is no alternatives outside of Windows. [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes [11:30] Adam Frisby: Not just dependent on hardware makers to keep it up to date -- but also to support each others extensions. [11:30] Melanie Milland: and as for hardware [11:30] Melanie Milland: you can't expect gamer hardware [11:30] Adam Frisby: which results in a mess of half-ass features that break depending on video card [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya its like putting prison gaurds in charge of the prison [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:30] Melanie Milland: not for something billed to be the Next Internet [11:30] Adam Frisby: it's not just between manufacturers, but even individual cards. [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: getting them to agree on extension support [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: Idk Melanie_T [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: sorry putting prsisoners in charge of gaurding prson i mean [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: dont work [11:31] Melanie Milland: so whatever is done needs to run on the standard "utility PC" [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it wasnt that long agon most PCs didnt ship with eth connections [11:31] Melanie Milland: and with the credit crunch biting deep [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: what is the Alternative to cross platform support though? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: besides OGL? [11:31] Melanie Milland: pcs are used 5+ years [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: is there anything? [11:31] Adam Frisby: Neb: none. [11:31] Adam Frisby: OGL is it. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya i didnt think so [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: Darkness. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: 2D? [11:31] Adam Frisby: You could probably write a software rasterizer. ;) [11:32] Adam Frisby: but that'd likely suck. [11:32]  Snoopy Pfeffer: the performance of graphics cards should increase dramatically this year if the Nvideo CEO is right [11:32]  Adam Frisby: There is some hope re: hardware specs. [11:32]  Adam Frisby: Intel integrated chipsets no longer suck as much as they used to [11:32]  OtakuMegane Desu: But the viewer isn't even using all the power higher-end stuff has now [11:32]  Adam Frisby: they are at least on-par with the lowest nvidia/ati offerings. [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: Intel has dropped integration [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: aargh, then i have my card buyed to early. but new cards are anyway to expensive [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: they threw in the towel [11:32]  Adam Frisby: They arent doing video at all anymore? [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: in favor of Nvidia [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: nope [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: otaku, in dense SL area im still stuck with 25 fps or lower [11:32] Adam Frisby: Well that is good to hear [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they bagged the project [11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [11:33] Adam Frisby: That means we're at least dealing with low-end nV/ATI which isnt terrible. [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: here i get now 22fps [11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm even worse lol [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think Nvidia put up to much a stink [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: threatened to partner with Via [11:33] Adam Frisby: I'm getting 13, but that is at 2560x1920 with 8xFSAA [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and stop alll support for Intel [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i think intel caved [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: almost full hd here [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: no filtering sofar i know [11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow so low? [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: But I have 1/3-1/2 CPU idle even now and FSAA/ani doesn't even touch fps so the GPU isn't even remotely strained otherwise. So wtf [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya im getting about 15fps here right now [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in 1920x1080 [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: 10 fps for me hehe [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i seem to get low FPS when sitting though [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: dont run it in ultra snoopy. its a frame killer [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if i got up and started moving id get 20-30fps [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: 4 fps lol but it's 1920x1440 with like 384 draw distance and all the goodies on. [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: my cpu is doing almost nothing [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: same here Otak [11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: it runs on my slow windows laptop [11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: my linux server is much better [11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: And ATI doesn't work right with VBO in the viewer so that doesn't help [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i run amd cpu [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: actually my draw and everything else is maxed out [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: wow [11:35] UUID Speaker: Frodo Diesel: cc9fe498-3369-1952-53d9-19cf2ce80e97 [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i try to stay around 20fps, else its terrible with movememnt [11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I have PCIe 2.0 and a bunch of idle CPU time so I can't see it being an issue of bottlenecks getting stuff to GPU. Not in hardware at least. [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: what is the status of the ongoing opensim refactoring? [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i think its just sl viewer that give lower framerate [11:36] Adam Frisby: I think the current refactoring is near done isnt it? [11:36] Adam Frisby: the ROBUST stuff anyway? [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: Oooh good question [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T? [11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: I think many wait for it to be finished [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewer just isn't that efficient. Mch better than in the past, but not what it could be. *shrug* [11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: you would be supprised OtakuMegane, my previous CPU ran at about 50% and i got a lot less FPS, i recently upgraded CPU and it still runs at about 50% but i get lots more FPS [11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: it would be good if all could continue to develop full speed forward :) [11:38]  Melanie Milland: it's very close [11:38]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think the viewer could be throttling CPU to stop it consuming 100% [11:38]  Melanie Milland: i have to reimplement friends [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: i wait with opensik upgrade, until there's a good version again ^^ :) [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: great Melanie :) [11:38]  Melanie Milland: and come up with a sane migration path for users [11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: But I want to to use the resources it has. :/ [11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [11:38]  Melanie Milland: now i have a few days here [11:38]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes that is something many will like Melanie :) [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: that latter one is probably the bigger challenge Mel [11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: it would be nice to have the choice :) [11:38]  Melanie Milland: before heading for London and the meetup [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: uhg ya the thought of this upcoming migration gives me the willies [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:39]  Melanie Milland: on Sunday [11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: are there big bumps to expect when we have a new upgrade ? [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure it will go well [11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: I'm just gonna toss this out for an idea [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: but the database landscape is going to change dramaticly [11:39]  OtakuMegane Desu: Oh boy, upgrade again [11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: we should run two grids, at least for a little while [11:39]  Melanie Milland: this upgrade will be raw and wild [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: mellanie: Oh, I didn't know you were coming [11:39]  Adam Frisby: Yeah [11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: so, OAR's required ! [11:39] Adam Frisby: This is going to be a major upgrade [11:39] Melanie Milland: it's a rocky one [11:39] Adam Frisby: ala 0.3->0.4 [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well dont worry everyone [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: our backup system is in place [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: put a box with hardhat's on lbsa nebadon [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: nothing will be lost [11:39] Melanie Milland: and it will require manual cleanup [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Got a summary of what it's bringing, exactly? [11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh really? [11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't been keeping up very well [11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: only of grids or also of regions? [11:40] Melanie Milland: we are finally replacing the counterintuitive tables [11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: at region level no manual work should be required [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: architectural sanity at minimum Otaku [11:40] Melanie Milland: users, appearance, friends, presence [11:40] Melanie Milland: we're trying to make migrations [11:40] Melanie Milland: but after verifying the conversion [11:40] Melanie Milland: one might want to drop the old tables [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes sure [11:41] Melanie Milland: we will not be doing that automatically [11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah [11:41]  Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok there will be an additional manual cleanup script? [11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, having the tables make a bit more sense would help lol [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: to run that a bit later? [11:41] Melanie Milland: no [11:41]  Melanie Milland: it'll be each admin for themselves [11:41] Melanie Milland: we can't make your choices [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: sure [11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: well a script could also ask questions [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: melanie you talk about region databases or user grid ones ? [11:42] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        7467a47: 2010-01-11 22:52:05 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald:. [11:42] Melanie Milland: URM [11:42] Melanie Milland: well, it will also affect regions [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: dont use URM sofar i know [11:42] Melanie Milland: if they're standalone/serverless [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: savest way is make backup from mysql + oar wipe region databases upgrade opensim and import oar back [11:43] Melanie Milland: NO [11:43]  Melanie Milland: you WILL lose data if you do [11:43]  Melanie Milland: OAR is NOT complete [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: then good to warn for that to other users [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: in what way? [11:44] Snoopy Pfeffer: I always use mysql backups [11:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: the upgrade will make old OARs incompatible? [11:44] Melanie Milland: OAR includes no script state, and omits some prim properties [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: best to have mysql + oar backup [11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Between oar and mysql dump it should grab everything that can be. [11:44] Adam Frisby: ack [11:44] Adam Frisby: back [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I believ script state does get in there, and it doesn't omit prim properties [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: wb [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it's serialized to inventory then it's also serialized in the oar [11:45] Melanie Milland: justin, there are some properties that have been added since OAR was defined [11:45] Melanie Milland: they are not part of inventory serialization [11:45] Melanie Milland: so their inworld values are lost [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: like what? [11:45] Melanie Milland: i'd have to read the code [11:45] Snoopy Pfeffer: will anybody update OAR based on the new properties? [11:45] Melanie Milland: but i know some went in recently [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and there are XmlIgnore? [11:45] Melanie Milland: we don't update the inventory serialization format often [11:45] Melanie Milland: justin: Yes [11:46] Melanie Milland: so, OAR has to be considered slightly lossy [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, I guess that is something of a hole [11:46] Melanie Milland: and can be used if it's ramifications are clear [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: I guess inventory is similarly lossy? [11:46] Melanie Milland: but SHOULD NOT be used as the primary vehicle for migrating between versions [11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: that should be communicated on the web portal - because users have different expectations [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: is diva going to write migration instructions for the changes needed when presence-refactor is merged in? [11:47] Melanie Milland: hiro: yes [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: users will use AOR for transfer between versions [11:47] Melanie Milland: richardus: why should they? [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T: Inventory proper or just IAR> [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: ? [11:47] Melanie Milland: we are providing migrations [11:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have never used OARs when updating simulators [11:47] Melanie Milland: so people should NOT use OAR except to make backups in case migration fails [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, normal practice is to rely on the migrations, not to save our oars (or iars) [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: which dont' capture anything anyway [11:48] Melanie Milland: your recommendation of OAR, wipe, reload is plain wrong [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: i use them rarly. but some only know oar and i hope how to move the sqlite. mysql is still better choice [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: if the migrations prove non-viable the people with pitchforks will be around [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: i trust my mysql databases melanie [11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: anyone attemtping a major update/migration should backup their entire simulator anyway, the binary and DB [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: certainly the db - you would be crazy not too [11:49] Melanie Milland: correct [11:49] Orion Hax: live on the edge and just go for it [11:49]  Adelle Fitzgerald: JCC, there are a lot of crazy people ;) [11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: lmao [11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: but it happend in the past that the did not mkade enough backups or lost the db and used the oar. [11:50]  Melanie Milland: the procedure is backup - upgrade - verify [11:50]  Melanie Milland: not save - wipe - load [11:50]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes simply write that in the update instructions [11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: whynot Mel :3 [11:50]  Snoopy Pfeffer: it's stupid to not make backups [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - if we clealy advertise before hand then they'v egot no excuse to get too het up [11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah [11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: doesnt stop people tho [11:51]  Snoopy Pfeffer: then it is their fault ;) [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: No, but if they were warned and instructed... [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: just warn people, dont trust oar as only backup. and dont use it for migrations [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: and that doesnt stop them complaining when it goees sour [11:51] Adam Frisby: Yeah; if you are running backup routines; it is strongly recommended to just do a SQL dump [11:51] Adam Frisby: If you have a SQL dump, that is guarunteed to be what OpenSim knows about your sim. [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, just doing the database is by far the easiest thing [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't do OARs myself [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: yes [11:51] Mic Bowman: what about backing up script states? [11:51] Adam Frisby: Hey Mic [11:52] Mic Bowman: that has killed us several times [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: For region stuff I just dump DB. When grid/asset stuff I do OAR/IAR as well [11:52] Adam Frisby: I think those are in a seperate directory now? [11:52] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Mic, wb [11:52]  Adam Frisby: Melanie should know [11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: take a copy of the entire Bin folder, along with the DB backup, and you ahve evrything you need for a fast rollback [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: backing up script states just a matter of moving the scriptengines folder? [11:52] Mic Bowman: "fast" is relative [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: i always install fresh opensim. also to have a quick fallback [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: heh [11:53] Melanie Milland: the script states are in ScriptEngines/ /*.state [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: heh I imagine Intel "fast" is really fast [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe [11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i bet they all stand around and complain 'darn this is really slow' :P [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: unless you're launch omfg number of regions and going out for golf while it starts up :p [11:53] Mic Bowman: hey [11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: :P [11:53] Mic Bowman: i resemble that remark [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: LOL [11:54] Melanie Milland: however, backing up the state files is not a suitable archival method for OAR, justin [11:54] Mic Bowman: yes... you really CAN run 1024 regions in one simulator [11:54] Melanie Milland: if that is what you do, you should revise it [11:54]  Mic Bowman: i just don't recommend it [11:54]  Richardus Raymaker: i never moved/backup the state files. maby i use scripts where it dont matter [11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: will it be necessary that regions have a certain interface version to be allowed to reconnect to the grid? [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: mleanie: It's probably done by accident. Why do you not recommend it, exactly? [11:54] Melanie Milland: there is a Method on IScriptModule to obtain the dump [11:54] Melanie Milland: it should be used [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: that was pretty freaking amazing to read [11:54] Melanie Milland: there is another method to put the data thus obtained back in place [11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: actually you can run more. [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: alright. Clearly this needs work - especially if people are starting to document the shitty internal serializtions being used [11:55] Melanie Milland: it should not be done on the file system because the file system location may change between revisions, or installs [11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: I got 8100 sims on a single machine in '08. [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: do you know what these methods are called? [11:55] Adam Frisby: Using 32GB of memory & Win2K3 Server [11:55] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: there have only ever been two scenarios I would use OAR for, backing up actual assets in case of loss on the asset server, or cloning a region [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: heh that was standalone though right? [11:55] Mic Bowman: adam.. with ODE and Xengine etc... BAD deadlocks [11:55] Adam Frisby: Yeah that was standalone [11:55] Mic Bowman: no [11:55]  Mic Bowman: in scisim [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think 1024 is the record for grid mode [11:55] Melanie Milland: justin: GetXMLState, SetXMLState [11:56] Mic Bowman: that's where it was running [11:56] Snoopy Pfeffer: well we can increase the osgrid ranking by running such servers with thousands of regions ;) [11:56]  Melanie Milland: both on IScriptModule [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: thx [11:56]  Melanie Milland: you need the itemID to call [11:56]  OtakuMegane Desu: I'm only on ~150 regions total, and that's across 6 instances, mostly for convenience though. [11:56]  Melanie Milland: get returns a string, set takes one [11:56]  Mic Bowman: 1024 regions... but every users gets a 10x10 region view [11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: just a 64x64 mea region for fly sail and drive :)) [11:56]  Mic Bowman: and that's what's killing the sims [11:57]  Mic Bowman: megaregions have some big problems with borders [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ya child agents are going to be a major problem in megas that large [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:57]  Melanie Milland: you mean with Borders [11:57]  Melanie Milland: :) [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: im happy it runs fine for now on my server with 4 regions [11:57] Mic Bowman: the neighbors computation is not really designed to have megaregion to megaregion exchanges [11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw I see ghost agents in the air in the middle of regions more often again [11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregions will be worked out eventually. They are still in very early stages really [11:57] Mic Bowman: can't go south or west across borders well [11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you also experience that? [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i see that for a long time on astro [11:58] Melanie Milland: i've seen them, too [11:58] Snoopy Pfeffer: it got worse since some weeks [11:58] Melanie Milland: especially in OSG [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i imagine that depends on how busy your neighbors regions are [11:58] Mic Bowman: we are currently just giving out a 10x10 grid of regions centered at the current agent [11:58] Melanie Milland: i don't know what makes child agents visible [11:58] Melanie Milland: but it should be looked into [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i have snoopy as neighborn, so it pretty busy :D [11:58] Mic Bowman: that gives the long view without (as many of ) the border problems [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: my movie theatre one day had like a dozen of the beastly looking NPC creatures [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: all frozen in T poses [11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: I see the ghosts moving arms and legs [11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: depending on the animation [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: thats about the only anomoly ive seen with ghosty type avatars myself [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: my ghosts move heads and some other parts to [12:00]  Snoopy Pfeffer: there is still a problem with autoreturn and returning objects using the About Land window [12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects reappear afte each region restart [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: that dont work for me snoopy [12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: They do? [12:01] Mic Bowman: sorry to drop in and leave... just wanted to re-iterate something i said on the dev list earlier... it really is amazing how far opensim has come recently [12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: and autoreturn even creates ghost prims [12:01] Mic Bowman: great work everyone!!!! [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: yes, have seen that problem to, im told it is fixt after the big redesign [12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: I never seem to have issues with return/auto [12:01] Adam Frisby: Mic: yeah, last 6 months, stability has really skyrocketed. [12:01] Hiro Protagonist: thanks Mic :) [12:01]  Snoopy Pfeffer: my unpacking area is full of invisible nonexistent prims that block movements after a while [12:01]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Mic, is the mega mega region still running? [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: :) ya its amazing how far things have come [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: on behalf of those who actually did the work [12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bah, missed him [12:02] Adam Frisby: We just updated our simhost demo region yesterday; the first time since October - total restarts between upgrade: 0. [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: auto return seems to work fine. but return all object from 1 owner, after restart the where back [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: I've returned thousands at once with little trouble. [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: heh yeah [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: They go away and stay away [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: Kohala had incredible stability [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I need to go too - bye everyone [12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: really Otaku? [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: bye Justin [12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use Flotsam? [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I stress test with phys and various stuff from time to time [12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin [12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Justin [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: And yeah, flotsam [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: see you justin, thanks for coming :) [12:03]  Melanie Milland: snoopy: asset cche is not relevant to this [12:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer: very strange [12:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i have manually returned about 14,500 prims [12:03]  Melanie Milland: return happens in the background [12:03]  OtakuMegane Desu: When I watch console, the return time does take a while though. [12:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald: it took a while but did it [12:03]  Melanie Milland: you need to give the sim time to do it [12:03]  OtakuMegane Desu: Maybe it's a speed/incomplete issue? [12:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use a 64 bit server? [12:03]  Melanie Milland: if you return all objects for one user [12:03]  Melanie Milland: and then restart [12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: i run 32bit server [12:03]  Melanie Milland: that background processing will not yet have happened [12:03]  OtakuMegane Desu: Nope, 32. Don't get enough mem use to do 64 yet [12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: well it did the autoreturn hours before [12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe it is a 64 bit problem [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: When I do thousands it can take 5-10 minutes in some cases to return all of them [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i have seen on my region return problem with object from a user [12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have noticed objects sometimes just re-appearing, just after a regular delete [12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: looks like that backgroud process does not succeed on my regions [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw it is the same on my 32 bit servers [12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: can you return all objects of a certain user? [12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: using the about land window? [12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects also come back [12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have done on the OSgrid sandboxes a few times [12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I've done all the return methods, and they work. [12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: strange [12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: they rarely come back, unless the region is restarted fairly soon after the return [12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, now. Way back they had issues of course lol [12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I really have hours between the return and the restart [12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm [12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: but sometimes when I just delete objects from my own regions, it could be 3 or 4 days before a restart, and the odd object will return [12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: even days! [12:06] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you think there is an error, be sure you have tested with master/trunk [12:06] Melanie Milland: NOT with a numbered release [12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: its like they arent being purged from the database properly or something [12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep [12:07] Melanie Milland: the last release we did was a while ago, as far as the codebase goes [12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Have you watched console while return is happening? [12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I have this problem since 1 years already! [12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: not that closely [12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: it it was always the same [12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: its a rare occurance on my own regions, so i havent really bothered [12:07] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to hit the virtual bricks y [12:07]  Hiro Protagonist: 'aal [12:07] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you use a release, e.g. 0.6.8, expect issues [12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: It spits out a line for every object then tells you when it's finished. Good for seeing if the process is disrupted [12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well for me it always fails [12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: catch ya soon hiro :) [12:07]  Snoopy Pfeffer: no no [12:08]  Hiro Protagonist: catch ya next time :) [12:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: I use trunk