Chat log from the meeting on 2020-02-18

[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:00] Telehub: Welcome back to, Dev Outreach, Andrew Hellershanks.


 * During meethings, all chat is logged.**

[11:01] Kayaker Magic: Hi Andrew

[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everone

[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Not a big draw yet today...

[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll wait a bit and see who else shows up.

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. :)

[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: How did the Kitely upgrade go, Selby?

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Kitely seems to be working well on 0.9.1.1

[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, George

[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I hopped over there Saturday morning my time, but was not sure if it was quite done yet at the time

[11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely did an update last night to fix a few problems -- but the upgrade is working fine

[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi George

[11:05] George Equus: Evening everyone

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Hi George

[11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi George

[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll check it out again

[11:05] Ubit Umarov: hi all

[11:06] George Equus: Was held up by a full sim mesh landscape refusing to be solid... lol

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening Ubit

[11:06] Kayaker Magic: They are having minor issues like teleport hubs not landing you in the right place and group messages not going out

[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit.

[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The original update was done last Wed. Hi Ubit

[11:06] George Equus: Hi Ubit

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: talking about kitely?

[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Yes

[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Ubit

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was busy building viewer at that time so did not pay attention :-)

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: well had no word from them

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: New macOS and Windows versions posted for download yesterday

[11:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: They are still doing minor fixes, Ubit

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: sure, nice to have news from you folks, but would be nicer to have from them

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: im not that expensive ;)

[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I have a question about llGiveInventoryList, which is FUBAR in SL, but I see a note to myself that it could deliver to absent avatars in 0.9.0 but testing in 0.9.1.1 tells me that it cannot deliver to absent avatars any more. Could it ever?

[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Probably not much talk from them until after March 1. Big customer starting up then

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i made some changed on that of close

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: but not usre

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: sure

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: how it handles offline at thing point

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: still not happy with that inventory sharing code.. thing we do have a lot wrong

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: at least one big dif

[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Just tried llGiveInventoryList last night on 0.9.2 and 0.9.1.1 and in both systems it gives an ANGRY RED DEBUG WINDOW when trying to deliver to an avatar not present.

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: as soon a item is given, it is placed on target inventory

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: and it is seen

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: a refuse to accept, moves it to trash folder

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: last part is as sl

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: but at SL we do not see it placed on inventory, directly

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: guess they place it on a temporay hidden folder

[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think that was changed in SL say 4-6 months ago

[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there was a bit of discussion about it in a TPV meeting

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: temporay, or special

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: oh?

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there was viewer changes because of changed server behavior in SL

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeack

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: good all this is udp still

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll see if I can find it somewhere

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: i hate the aisv3 crap

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think Ansariel mada bunch of comments on the changes

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well our way is not bad

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: just strange to see it there before pressing accept

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the point was to spare the user from seeing spam inventory

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thayt did not want

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well from what i see, guess they have a special hidden forlder

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: folder

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: because the fact on deny the thing shows up on trash, means it was on inventory

[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: could be

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: and also safer for offline

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: just confusing.. always accepted :)

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well in some cases FS is issue accept message automaticly anyway

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they might have some incoming items queue that is processed on login

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: yeah more breaks for us

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well a few days ago i notice objects items give was not good

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and did a few changes

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll see if I can track down the viewer changes later

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: we had a mess on messages processing

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and LL does odd things

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: accept message also means deny

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: in object items case

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: because the message is basicly a folder move

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: accept is moving to correct folder ( we have it there already)

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: deny is move to trash

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: on people inventory to ppl, they do it other way

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: confusing

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: u need to test 0.92 kayaker

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: to see if i improved or made it worse

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Test what? I tested llGiveInventoryList on 0.9.2 and it FAILS NOISILY when giving to an avatar who is not present.

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well not sure that is suposed to work on that case

[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is this change that involves it: SL-11454 Discarding should accept items to trash

[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, it is supposed to fail in SL, my memory is that it failed in 0.8 but started working here in 0.9.0.0, now it is failing again.

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: Gives inventory items to target, creating a new folder to put them in.

• key

target

–

group, avatar or prim UUID that is in the same region

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: it is not suposed to do offline

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yeack group ?

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: Depending upon the type of target this function works differently.

Avatar

Must be in or able to see into the same Region as the sending object, or recently have been so

[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, that is the known SL faulure. I thought we started doing better at one point.

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://bitbucket.org/dayturn/ll-viewer-release/commits/b2442b4011be2b1267e203ef3ee392f34fd40d0c

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: it is spec

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here is the old HG link to it

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: not fail

[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: searches in the new LL git is a complete mess

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: guess our restriction is to be on same region

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( at most on a region on same instance =

[11:28] Kayaker Magic: The workaround is to call llKey2Name with the avatar's UUID. If they are nearby that will work, and then it is safe to call llGiveInventoryList.

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well seems we do try to send to inventory even if not present

[11:29] Object: Script running

[11:31] Kayaker Magic: Interesting, I just ran my give inventory list test, and it did not generate a debug message here!

[11:32] Kayaker Magic: I could swear it did on my 0.9.2 regions in OSGrid, and I just upgraded yesterday!

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: did u update yr 0.92. regions ?

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: from code i see no limitations about where the target avatar is

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ( remember that after a commit, you need to clean and runprebuild)

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: wel or clone into a new folder

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: there where a change that needs that

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ( and clean before runprebuild )

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You might want to check this commit too https://bitbucket.org/lindenlab/viewer-neko/commits/0a5c100c83c56dd7c25a404dbdb136e418c23d7f#comment-7978077

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: The LSL wiki page says the target avatar must be in or able to see into the same Region as the sending object.

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: yeap it does

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: we are not checking that

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ( and will not check by that =

[11:35] Kayaker Magic: LL claimed that the architecture of the server prevented them from ever accepting inventory lists.

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well ok.. that means there is a child presence on region

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: we can check that :)

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL-11430: Transaction ID is passed as aux_id from offline message. No special parsing required to get type from binary_bucket.

[11:36] Kayaker Magic: My test worked here when the avatar was not logged on, she logged on and found the inventory.

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well we do not have aux:id outch :p

[11:37] Kayaker Magic: Then I sent another copy, she got notification and another folder. It is working perfectly!

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: cool

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Bill!

[11:38] George Equus: Hi Bill

[11:38] Bill Blight: Howdy

[11:39] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Bill

[11:39] Bill Blight: Hiya Selby

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: hi bill

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: welcome to your region

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: lol

[11:40] Bill Blight: Haha

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bill

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: yeack always wrong stream :p

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: So how is the old ticker doing?

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: your region My stream!!! bill

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: well while i have one :)

[11:42] Bill Blight: lol

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: so more news andrew ?

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: yesterady or so i change mysql region store DB

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: replaced storing of floats on doubles, to float

[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: We have already covered the news of Kitely's upgrade to 0.9

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: saving some useless space on the rows

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: seems the prim tables is already too large for the engine used

[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: You also added a defaults file for the osslEnable settings.

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: unless you set it to dynamic

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: not nice

[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I still don't like the filename chosen but there it is. :)

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: yeah dan asked me that

[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how is it too large, Ubit?

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: max row size is 8KB on default

[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok

[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Oh, when I updated my opensim yesterday, I noticed that the osslEnable.ini has been changed, but there was still a copy of OpenSim.ini that referenced it by the old name.

[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it not create additional storage?

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and we have tons of columns on that

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: 2 or so full text

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: a ton of useless 36chars UUIDS

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: etc

[11:48] Kayaker Magic: OpenSim.ini.example was correct, but there was a copy of OpenSim.ini in the bin folder that still referenced osslEnable.ini directly.

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, that would still be correct. The new file is osslEnable.ini.example

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: yes i can't change that

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: but on old instalations, there will also be a osslEnable with all entries

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: so minor

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: for now, at least

[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Upgrades won't clobber the existing ini file.

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: that thing will always ne a pain no matter what :(

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: about mysql ( and others) no idea why ppl did decide to add columns to all the crap

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: it is a total wast

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: prims are only retrieved as full object group (linkset) and stored as such

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: all those columns are just waste.. it should be a simple blob

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: with a few index ones with uuids

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: no ?

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ( and on all dbs )

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: in fact SQLITE should be enough for that table

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: fear our code is making sqlite worse than it is

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: well managed/unmaged does make it worse..

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: but the thing should handle all the prims and all region data

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: with no need for mysql/pg on regions

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably a separate project is needed to g throuhg data storage

[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: 96 fields in the prims table does seem a bit much.

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't have that on regions at all

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: 100

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. My copy is out of date.

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: plus the primshapes

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: RIght.

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: primshapes are other table.. but all that is part of a prim

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no db is running on the regions

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and unique to a prim

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: regions need a db

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: for region storage

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not in grid mode. they need a grid db

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: that is silly

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: regions should have local db

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for what?

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well central one works

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: but slower

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: for all region specific data

[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: having region dbs makes for a cf and too much complexity

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: prims, terrain, etc etc

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: all that info is local to a region

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure, store it on a shared db instance

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: sure central does easy backups etc

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only one db to manage and update

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: otherwise sqlite should be a better option

[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as in software update

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: htey do claim more performance than we see

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and of course.. standalones

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and regions on osgrid and metro

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for open conect grids it is a bit different

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: only "closed" can use central regions databases

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but even there, if you have many regions (simulators) you can store it in a shared db

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: assuming you ever do backup it :p

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is a always a good thing :-))

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: backup is the only reason to use a shared db

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well that i can remember :)

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: my linux regions use local maria

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: win use local mysql

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: An alternative is replication of the region dbs to the central server to keep a single place to do backups. Perhaps not the best way to handle it.

[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like over-engineering

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: dunno

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: but remote connections do cost a lot

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: invest a little bit more in the shared db instance - cpu, memory, storage, backup, network

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then forget about rgion databases in grid mode

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: but our bad dbs is something ppl mentioned a lot of times

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: inwordz even moved things to cassandra or other engines

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't get better by being replicated for every region

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: they are not replicated

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Most of the DB tables don't seem that bad until you look at groups. I've always felt that one was rather bad.

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: what part of information local to a region you missed? :)

[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: by having one instance for each region - did that make it more understndable? ;-)

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: well prims and primshapes yeack

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: look to that

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: robust tables are another thing

[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, it had been a while since I looked at prims. I didn't recall it have anywhere near the number of fields as it has now.

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: bc the tradicion of telling people to read the db directly

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: with php etc

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: prims are usually cached on the region and for most regions don't change a lot over time

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: all grid tools do direct db access

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so after the initial fetch, it has to go to the central db relatively infrequent

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: physics prims write back a lot

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I just noticed the prims table has three blob type fields.

[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: That doesn't seem good.

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: good they are bloobs :)

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, but you were talking about the limit to row size data earlier. Won't that make it more likely to exceed the default row size limit?

[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probabaly stored separately

[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure how mysql does it, but postgres packs the blob data into the default 8k block if it can fit

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if not, it goes to a separate table space for blobs

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: What happens if it doesn't fit?

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now past the top of the hour? Any other questions/comments for today before we wrap up?

[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone typing so that will do it for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: As I said there are new viewer builds at https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the mesh uploader can handle much more complex models without choking

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: bloods are stored elsewhere

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and you can seletively autoplay media for a location - not just on off

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: ( thats why some say they are bad )

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yeahh guess mysql packs them on the row, if fits, else, elsewhere

[12:15] George Equus: Thanks Andrew. I am off. bye all.

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: but they do not count for the 8k limit