Chat log from the meeting on 2010-10-05

[18:01] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Zaius%20Plaza/208/175/26 [18:01] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [18:01] Richardus Raymaker has entered chat range (13.9m) [18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hello Richard [18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hi Neb [18:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello [18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi neb. if wright plaza where not down i could fly from my home to here. i want a chopper ! [18:02] Richardus Raymaker: ok, verhicles dont work good. [18:03] Richardus Raymaker: but just good signb that i can fly to here [18:04] Dave Coyle is Online [18:05] Nebadon Izumi: scripts cant cross borders [18:05] Nebadon Izumi: you cant drive vehicles over borders [18:05] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [18:05] Richardus Raymaker: yes. so for now i play for plane myself :) [18:06] Nebadon Izumi: even worse, physics cant be passed over borders either [18:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dave [18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: quite alot to work out still for border crossing vehicles [18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: hello dave [18:06]  Dave Coyle: hi [18:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hi Justin [18:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus, hi folks [18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: hey there justin [18:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin [18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: heh i just did a sqlite migration from 0.6.9 to 0.7 using sqlite [18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry using Wright Plaza [18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: man talk about excruciating [18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: sqlite is soooo horible [18:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [18:07]  Richardus Raymaker: dont tell me [18:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, it's horrible when one tries to shove vast amounts of data through it [18:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's very good for lots of other things [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: on sim startup it sat for 6.5 mintutes looking like it was frozen [18:07] Nebadon Izumi: i restarted sim several times thinking it was not working [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: finally i just let it go [18:08]  Richardus Raymaker: i wish we would have 1 ini file for all database settings and conenction strings. makes life more easy [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: it took 9 minutes and 14 seconds just to get to [Startup Complete] [18:08] Richardus Raymaker: excluding scripts ? [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes excluding scripts [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: scripts are still starting [18:08] Justin Clark-Casey: But Wright Plaza isn't on sqlite, right? Or are you talking about a different instance? [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: probably take about 30+ minutes for sim to startt [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: im using it as a test [18:08] Nebadon Izumi: testing all possibilites for migration issues to 0.7 [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: i figured go extreme [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: make sure even the worst sims can be migrated [18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: *all* of them? YOu going to try MSSQL too, nebadon? ;-) [18:09] Nebadon Izumi: mssql doesnt work in 0.7 does it? [18:09]  Richardus Raymaker: lol [18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt think it did [18:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: it doesn't? [18:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: no idea. I don't use MSSQL. [18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: has anyone made it work? [18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: usually Strawberry does that [18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: and shes just getting on 0.6.9 recently [18:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: the RG people are still on 0.6.9 I should think [18:10]  Richardus Raymaker: mssql dort work under linxu sofar i know :p [18:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's hardly surprising :) [18:10] BlueWall Slade: Reaction Grid haven't been on 0.6.9 too very long [18:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that would stop me from using it. [18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: RG are very conservative - they won't upgrade now for a v long time [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not sure but i dont think anyones done the MSSQL migration routine for 0.7 yet [18:10] BlueWall Slade: and it seems they have become infactuated with the Unity3d stuff [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: the only person i know who works on it is Strawberry [18:10] Nebadon Izumi: and unfortuantly i havent used MSSQL in like 10 years [18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: there were some other people once - but nothing for a long time [18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt even know how to set it up anymore [18:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny [18:11] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-) [18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway minus todays sqlite annoynances, the move to 0.7 testing is going well [18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the MYSQL migration was perfect [18:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: nice - you guys sorted out the problems with osprofile? [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: Dave migrated all the users/inventory stuff to our 0.7 test grid [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: from the main grid [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: no [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: osprofile dont work [18:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: oh? No more issues moving large amounts of stuff to 07? That will be good [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: no ones touched it for 0.7 yet [18:12]  Richardus Raymaker: OAR's from 0.6.9 -> 0.7.x are no problem ? [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya no prolem there Richardus [18:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so I presume that would block any actual migration? [18:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, osprofile will be working soon. [18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no [18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we decded to move forward without profiles [18:13] BlueWall Slade: for what it's worth - the things in OMW work that dont' work in the forge one [18:13] Nebadon Izumi: it will have to get fixed after likely [18:13] Richardus Raymaker: not sure what the best way is. i hope use the existing mysql works fine. [18:13] Dave Coyle: we'll keep the profile data, but it won't work on day 1 [18:13] Nebadon Izumi: unless someone works it out in the next week or two [18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: k - command decision from the osgrid council? :) [18:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm about to commit the change to fix profile picks. That leaves just classifieds. Once those are done, I'll forward port to 07 [18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: great Andrew [18:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: nice going [18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: anyting i can do to help test let me know [18:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, ty [18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: if it works before we migrate we'll certainly do it asap [18:13]  Richardus Raymaker: not the basic profile data we have now ? [18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: but if not were still moving forward [18:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I'm working on the osprofile module to make all the tabs in the profile dialog of a viewer operational [18:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I have just classifieds left to work on. [18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: on the topic of Sqlite again justin [18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: am i correct to say mono 2.4.x uses legacy [18:14] Nebadon Izumi: and 2.6.x uses new sqite driver? [18:15] Richardus Raymaker: oh classifieds we can mis [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: no one in opensim-dev could remember [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.4 can use legacy or new. 2.6 can only use new [18:15] Nebadon Izumi: ok 2.4 failed on new for me [18:15]  Nebadon Izumi: but when i went back to legacy it worked fine [18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: odd - I'm using it fine with 2.4 on new [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: just took 10 years [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: let me pastebin the errors i got [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm interested in making Teravus' managed sqlite the main driver after 0.7.1 [18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: that would resolve our problems with mac as well, if everything works okay [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/huY83MWD [18:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats the error i got on new sqlite driver with 2.4 mono [18:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yeah, classifieds aren't too important. They more or less work at the moment. I'm seeing an exception being triggered so its mainly cleaning up that. [18:17] Nebadon Izumi: doh [18:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry [18:17] Nebadon Izumi: wrong pastebin [18:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I was just going to say :) [18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/6FPm8UYg [18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry about that [18:17]  Richardus Raymaker: as lonbg opensim dont crahs, no problem [18:18]  Nebadon Izumi: but on legacy this error did not occur [18:18]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure if it was fatal [18:18]  paulie Flomar is Offline [18:18]  Nebadon Izumi: but it was scary enough for me to stop it and start over on legacy driver [18:18]  paulie Flomar is Online [18:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, you didn't previously somehow create estate tables? [18:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: ahmmmmm [18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: no [18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it was a brand new database i made last night on osgrid [18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i loaded the Wright Plaza oar into a new sqlite based region [18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: in this grid [18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: then moved it to danger [18:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is that the legacy sqlite isn't being properly updated for the latest db changes [18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that the migrations had already been done before you stopped it which allow legacy to keep working [18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: urf, this is a pita [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh well apparantly the new driver isnt working either though [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: nope [18:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I was saying to nebadon that it didn't look right to me that all those create table statements were inside a transaction. [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: i deleted that db [18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: and copied in the 0.6.9 db again [18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: you're using master? [18:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes [18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm quite surprised legacy is working at all there [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt reuse the same OpenSim.db either after the initial migration failed [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i just logged in [18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: seems to be working [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but i dunno [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: maybe somethings not right [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but ya i freakin hate sqlite [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: id needs to just die [18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: you might get some failures on things like media manipulation [18:22] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok [18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [18:23] Andrew Hellershanks: SQLite has its uses. [18:23] Nebadon Izumi: well like i said the new driver seemed to fail too [18:23] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno [18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ngggff [18:23] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but how to find a replacement for noobs. thats not sqlite ? [18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: is mysql really that hard to set up, really? :) [18:23] Nebadon Izumi: someone else on opensim-dev mentioned it failed for them also [18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: well some people do struggle [18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: installing mysql is easy [18:23]  Quilzie Xemax: It's not hard... it's just people stick to something if it works for them anyway [18:24]  Quilzie Xemax: Well, "works" [18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: setting up the user account is where people seem to flounder [18:24]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, its not hard. You just have to get all the connection strings set up properly [18:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, then there are big problems when someone imports a big oar [18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: lol ya think [18:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: it takes an age to do that into sqlite, though part of it is big inefficiencies in the import process too [18:24]  Richardus Raymaker: ik know nebadon. under linux its easy. under winows its getting a bigger problem especialy 64bit did not work good with xammp or lamp [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: it took 8.5 hours for the WP oar to load into the sqlite region [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats absurd [18:24] Nebadon Izumi: the db is 28mb [18:25] Andrew Hellershanks: There are install packages for MySQL for Windows which make it fairly painless to setup [18:25] Richardus Raymaker: and wright plaza only have 17K prims [18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [18:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya Xampp is good [18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so you tried the non-legacy adapter with no existing db whatsoever and that failed? [18:26] Richardus Raymaker: apache did not worked with 64bit i think. long time ago [18:26] BlueWall Slade: mysql is probably huge overkill for people that just want a private standaolone region [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: no justin [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i only am testing migrations [18:26] BlueWall Slade: or simple regions in grid [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: from 0.6.9 to 0.7 [18:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that shouldn't be an issue any more [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i could give a crap about anything else [18:26] Richardus Raymaker: ok. [18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just wanted to make sure our migration goes smoothly [18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: could you try again but ignoring the errors this time? The ones I see are just for duplicate columns anyway [18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok sure can [18:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that it might work anyway [18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok [18:27]  Nebadon Izumi: what should i test sepcificly you think? [18:27] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure its actually working [18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: obscure music on parcel media would be a gfood setting to try [18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, actually the simplest one would be media on a prim [18:28] Nebadon Izumi: ok [18:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll start that now [18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: this should fail to work with the legacy adapter [18:29] Justin Clark-Casey: man, this is going to be a pita [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya tell me about it [18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:29] Quilzie Xemax: Migrations are always joyous happy fun times [18:29] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite was supposed to make things easier for everyone [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: so far its uber fail in that regard [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I wouldn't say so. sqlite just makes it easier to get an initial system up and running [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: but it comes back and bites you in the arse in various ways [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:30] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly not made things easier for devs [18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we had a debate a while ago about stopping it being the default but there were big complaints about changing it [18:31]  Nebadon Izumi: but i think our database functionality in general needs a shit load of lovin [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: it shouldnt take 2.5 hours to load Wright Plaza into mysql either [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: or 8.5 hours into sqlite [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: for a 28mb database [18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.5 to migrate or load an oar? [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: to load oar [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: the migrate took seconds [18:31] Nebadon Izumi: in mysql [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: but for some reason [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: the datastore on OAR loading [18:32] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there are big inefficiencies there..... Loading could be vastly better though that means change the db adapters [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: takes years [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its not the asset upload either [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: asset upload goes fast [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its the write to database takes hours [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: literally over 2 hours for 28mb of data [18:32] Nebadon Izumi: in MySQL [18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's done in a very naive way [18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: it has to be improved [18:33] Penny Lane: Pen and ink? [18:33] Nebadon Izumi: heh [18:33] BlueWall Slade: chisle and stone? [18:33] Richardus Raymaker: typewriter penny [18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: one at a time :) [18:33]  Penny Lane: BlueWall -- ah, strong persistence, good thinking :-) [18:34] BlueWall Slade: assets: you can checkin any time you like. But, you can't ever leave. [18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I thin kthe chief problem is that once the oar is loaded, storage of the objects is done in the usual opensim way (i.e. one at t eim) [18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you've got thousands of objects this takes an absolute age [18:35] Nebadon Izumi: ok region is migrating on new sqlite driver [18:35] Nebadon Izumi: we'll know in about 10 minutes [18:35] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:36] Nebadon Izumi: actually it wont be safe to login for about 30 minutes [18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: migration is just a db operation - it doesn't flow through the opensim code itself.... [18:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: If you just loaded an oar, why does it still do the saving prims to the db. It should already have them there from the load [18:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i dont get it must be doing it serialy [18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the load just places them in the region. Saving to the db is carried out by the usual opensim persistence process [18:36] Nebadon Izumi: 1 prim at a time [18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the same mechanism as when you just create a prim in-world - it doesn't actually get stored to the database until some time afterwards [18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it isn't going to be an easy thing to address... [18:37]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, oh. That explains the comment yesterday about having to wait for the process (or backup command) to complete before doing a region shutdown [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: right [18:38] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: when you load an oar it will appear to be done in minutes [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it can literally take hours for the datastore to complete [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: and there is no indicator its actually happening [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: or that its done [18:38] BlueWall Slade: what if you force it on the command line? [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: other than peer into the database [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you force it it will lock up the console until its done [18:38] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. When I was loading up 9 oars, I was seeings lots of messages on the console about saving to db [18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it could also feel like its not working and just frozen [18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you really need to know ahead of time what to expect [18:39] Nebadon Izumi: or your going to kill the sim likely [18:39] Nebadon Izumi: in sqlite though your pretty screwed [18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you cant open a db that opensim is using and check tables [18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: persistence could be forced at the time of save, which at least would allow a warning to immediately preceed it [18:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, at the time of load [18:39] Richardus Raymaker: yup. mysql delete database and start over. if you only have 1 region [18:40] Richardus Raymaker: any other news about 0.7.x ? [18:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ya lots of room for improvement to databases [18:41] Nebadon Izumi: right now im more worried about getting to 0.7 though [18:41] Richardus Raymaker: still get some earplugs in range :) [18:41]  Nebadon Izumi: as long as these errors are not fatal thats the important thing [18:41]  Dave Coyle: sqlite migrations is pretty much it for things holding osgrid back from 0.7 [18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: what threw me totally off kilter was it takes literally 9+ minutes to get to startup complete [18:42]  Richardus Raymaker: as long people make oar's it can go fine. people that try to upgrade oar. gives noise. [18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: it looked like the sim was frozen and not doing anything [18:42]  Dave Coyle: as we said, profiles is going to have to wait until right after the switch [18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: now i know it just takes forever i can move forward [18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully sqlite really isnt even a problem [18:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, upgrading db's directly isn't so bad. Loading oars is a problem though this isn't a new one [18:42] Richardus Raymaker: better put that as warning (h1) on the migration page [18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:43]  Nebadon Izumi: as long as it finishes [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: i really dont care if it takes 10 hours [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it eventually does finish [18:43] Richardus Raymaker: so someone with sqlite and many regions is busy for 1 week. [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: it certainly would be nice if it took 15 minutes instead of 8 hours [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: but we can worry about that later [18:43] Richardus Raymaker: some progress message wopuld be fine. [18:43] Dave Coyle: richardus: someone with many regions probably isn't using sqlite [18:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya you would think [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect a large portion of this grid is using sqlite [18:44] Richardus Raymaker: i know someone the do and did. i hope she switched to mysql [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: i know like Greybeard is [18:44]  Nebadon Izumi: he seems unable to get mysql working [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: even with help [18:44] Richardus Raymaker: windows nebadon ? [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: hes tried to switch but has a very hard time [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:44]  Richardus Raymaker: as long xampp works and apace and phpmyadmin it must work [18:44] Nebadon Izumi: someone who is not very computer savy to begin with i can see mysql being a struggle for sure [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: well his problem [18:45] Nebadon Izumi whispers: was he is leasing a Windows VPS [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: that had IIS and MSSQL [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: when he tried to install XAMPP he got all kinds of port conflicts [18:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it ruined his day [18:45] Richardus Raymaker: that makes things harder [18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how many region service providers are there on osgrid? [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: unique servers? [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: http://osgrid.org/stats/detail.php?graph=13&tree=&filter= [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: this says we have about 900 servers connected [18:46] Andrew Hellershanks: He should have been able to shutdown IIS and MSSQL services somehow [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: but its probably more [18:46] Nebadon Izumi: i think this stat uses Unique IP's [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: not neccesarily unique servers [18:47] Nebadon Izumi: so somewhere between 900-1500 is probably a good estimate [18:47] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [18:47]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [18:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I mean, ppl providing regions for other ppl [18:47]  Dave Coyle: no way to know [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: oh [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: ya hard to say [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: if i had to guess [18:47]  Richardus Raymaker: the drop half jun ? where the grid cleanup ? [18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe 1 dozen [18:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just curious as to how many individuals are going to be attempting this migration [18:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: bit sudden drop in servers about latter part of June [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot [18:48]  Dave Coyle: hundreds [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i thin its probably safe to say 90% plus of the grid [18:48]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, im for a while busy with the migration 2 servers + 1 from someone else [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: wil be migrating their own servers [18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: gonna be fun then [18:48] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya [18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: ive been having nightmares [18:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: you're going to head straight to a version off master rather than something like 0.7.0.2? [18:49] Dave Coyle: that's why we get paid the big bucks! oh, wait.... [18:49] Richardus Raymaker: and the worse thing. you need to wait with testing till end of the week right ? [18:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: lol [18:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think so Justin [18:49] Nebadon Izumi: were gonna head right for 0.7.1 (dev) [18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: seems riskier [18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be migrating to 07 by the end of the year (maybe). I have a few things to do before I'll be ready to migrate [18:49] Friendly Harbour: i know i shut down some test servers b4 the summer ... only 2-3 ip's but 10+ regions .. think i will ready the wiki carefully b4 starting them up again if there are mayor changes coming [18:49] Friendly Harbour: read* [18:49] Nebadon Izumi: mysql migrated fine on the new mysql driver [18:49] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza that is [18:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: God to know [18:49] Dahlia Trimble: 0.7.1 for osgrid? [18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's a good point - the mysql driver has random failures when migrating [18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: achh.. Good to know [18:50] Nebadon Izumi: all of our current testing is on 0.7.1 [18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie refuses to allow the mysql driver to be reverted in master. [18:50] Dave Coyle: dahlia: yes [18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: the one in 0.7.0.2 is the old one that works ok [18:50]  Nebadon Izumi: honestly the stable releases are no more stable than master [18:50] Dahlia Trimble: nice. when? [18:50] Richardus Raymaker: im already useing 0.7 as standalone hypergrid. so know some things [18:50] Nebadon Izumi: i find the releases to be less stable [18:50] Nebadon Izumi: in most cases [18:50] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:50] Friendly Harbour: lol [18:50] Andrew Hellershanks: :-) [18:50]  Nebadon Izumi: i never run them [18:50]  Dave Coyle: dahlia: don't have a date yet. just have to make sure sqlite migrations are working. [18:50]  paulie Flomar is Online [18:50]  Richardus Raymaker: how's the scripting problem nebadon. last week it did not work well [18:50]  Dave Coyle: hopefully this month [18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: no scripting problems i am aware of Richardus [18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: can you be more specific? [18:51]  Richardus Raymaker: ok. last week things did not work for you [18:51]  Dahlia Trimble: what about services migration? will there be a period when both newer and older versions will still work? [18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya right now i think were good [18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: on master [18:51]  Richardus Raymaker: 0.7.1 version head [18:51]  Dave Coyle: dahlia: no [18:51]  Lalinda Perhaps is Offline [18:51]  Dave Coyle: it'll be switched all at once [18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: tbh, part of the reason why we have these difficulties is becuase you guys have been on 0.6.9 for so long :) [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: blame the modules [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: not me [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: :-) [18:52] Richardus Raymaker: i hope the download serve ris ready for the big run. [18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: if you'd been updating ppl would have faced the prressure to make master work properly :) [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: master works pretty good now [18:52]  Dave Coyle: that's why we don't want to wait anymore [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem was no modules worked [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt we didnt want to upgrade [18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: we just couldnt [18:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I know - that was partly why I fixed the osgroups stuff [18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: i wish we could have updated months ago [18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: its one thing for a few modules to not work [18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but when non did that would have just upset everyone [18:53]  Richardus Raymaker: somewhere you need to upgarde. or you can delay it until V1.0 [18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: and tehre is not enough people to fix them fast enough to calm everyone down [18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but ya were close [18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it shows there isn't that much manpower about - those modules languishged for ages [18:53] Nebadon Izumi: no turning back now [18:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya [18:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: nice to hear - but don't take too many risks, please :) [18:54]  Nebadon Izumi: well osgrid has always run master [18:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: I would have looked at the groups one sooner but I was in the middle of ossearch at the time [18:54]  Nebadon Izumi: we have never ever ran so called "stable" releases [18:54]  Nebadon Izumi: like i said i have never found the opensim releases to work better than master [18:54]  Dahlia Trimble: I have personal modules on some of my regions that (fortunately) I've just ported to post 0.7. There may be other people who arent quite as ready :( [18:54] Nebadon Izumi: they are usually missing important things we need [18:55] Richardus Raymaker: the only reason i use osgrid realease. is to avpoid the git troubles. until i made my own manual [18:55] Andrew Hellershanks: The one difference with the releases, all the issues and bugs are known [18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm surprised - I spent ages on 0.6.9 :p [18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: but I know what you mean, it's all very alpha [18:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya the releases tend to go weeks without hot fixes we need [18:55] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont want to maintain our own branch [18:56] Nebadon Izumi: i already dont have enough time as it is [18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [18:56] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we get things like really nasty security holes [18:56] Nebadon Izumi: that are only available on master [18:56] Nebadon Izumi: they need to go out to our users immediatly [18:57] Nebadon Izumi: the fix is only available in master that is [18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and even though we stayed on 0.6.9 forever [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: i really pestered the hell out of you guys to back port stuff to post-fixes [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: melanie probably said 50 times no more patches [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: only for me to pester her into more [18:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [18:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [18:58] Friendly Harbour: :) [18:58]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [18:58]  Richardus Raymaker: i wish the disapeared sims after restart are fixt. crossing fingers [18:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there's not enough of us to maintain these things properly [18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i think once we move to 0.7 though alot of others will too [18:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have to confess, I myself was only able to update 0.6.9 because I needed it for a project [18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: and that should make things easier for everyone [18:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Once I get done with osprofile stuff, the next thing I want to do is to start looking at some of the prim linking issues. [18:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think thre might be a lot of problems, but it has to be tackled sometime [18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: Reacton grid tends to wait for OSgrid [18:59] Nebadon Izumi: as do other grids [18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you're a brave man, but that would be really cool [18:59] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd Rock grid too [19:00] Nebadon Izumi: they generally wait for us to prove a version is worthy [19:00] Dahlia Trimble: ReactionGrid is the only grid I'm aware of that runs the core distribution [19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah. I suppose I am. I'm just going after things I want to see working properly and I figure they are isolated enough that I have a change to fix them. [19:00] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd rock does too [19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: change->chance [19:00] Dahlia Trimble: besides OSGrid of course ;) [19:00]  Nebadon Izumi: Science sim does for their regions [19:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: If you want any code guidance pls don't hestitate to ask. [19:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but their backend is simiangrid [19:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are some unit tests for linking which might help get a handle on the code [19:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I thought ScienceSim had their own fork [19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: when i spoke to Mic last [19:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: Particles are another thing I'd like to see working properly but I think that might be more difficult and is not as high a priority right now [19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: he said Sciencesim has like 6 or so patches that are not in core [19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: they used to Dahlia [19:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, sciencesim are now almost completely running stock [19:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I haven't hesitated so far [19:01] Nebadon Izumi: but since they moved to simiangrid they are on stock opensim regions now [19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: cool :) [19:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to get back to work. You're thinking of doing the migration within a month? [19:02]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [19:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: cya, justin [19:02]  Dave Coyle: yes [19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ok justin, thanks for coming [19:02]  Dahlia Trimble: bye JCC :) [19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: that is really good to hear - I think it would benefit dvelopment a lot. Good luck! [19:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves [19:03] paulie Flomar: :) [19:03]  Dave Coyle: bye [19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: so anyone else have any questions before we wrap things up? [19:03]  Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [19:04]  paulie Flomar: doh. I missed the boat. [19:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: One things about profiles [19:04]  Richardus Raymaker: just on time, to jump on . [19:04]  paulie Flomar: Just the question of OSGRid migration. Sorry I missed it. [19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ah were close Paulie [19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll send you notecard with the log of meeting [19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [19:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: Some info is maintained in core tables in 069. If moving to osprofiles, some of that data needs to be copied to the profile module tables. I don't have a procedure or set of scripts to do that yet [19:05]  paulie Flomar: dont put yourself out .thx. :) [19:05] Notecard saved [19:05] paulie Flomar accepted your inventory offer. [19:05] Nebadon Izumi: there you go [19:05]  Dave Coyle: we're not using any of opensim's migrations for the backend data [19:05] Richardus Raymaker: Do you move the servers to new place before migration. i thionk its bgood to have at least 2 weeks between both [19:05] paulie Flomar: got it. thx. :) [19:06] Dave Coyle: so one more script would be no big deal. :) [19:06] Dave Coyle: richardus: no machines are moving, though we are using a new one [19:06] Dahlia Trimble: guess Im out of here too, bye all :) [19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ya OSgrid.org will shift to a new server in Texas [19:06]  Richardus Raymaker: ok. the cool ones :) [19:06] Dave Coyle: bye dahlia [19:06] BlueWall Slade: see you guys [19:06] Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya Dahlia, thanks for swinging by :) [19:06]  paulie Flomar: bye, d. [19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Bluewall [19:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I'm out of here too. I want to get this change log done and commit some changes [19:07]  Richardus Raymaker: still good to have some time between both to fix problems [19:07]  Richardus Raymaker: bye bl;uewall [19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: later Andrew [19:07]  Dave Coyle: richardus: no, we need a clean break [19:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: tty on IRC. See everyone next week [19:07]  paulie Flomar: I'ma pop back to Cameo. My Mate is building it out. :) [19:07] Nebadon Izumi: nice Paulie [19:07] paulie Flomar: :) [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: we are doing texting prior to the actual grid shift [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont want anyone to think were going to just migrate withotu testing [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its just not going to be available after the big switch over [19:08]  Richardus Raymaker: ok [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: the old grid that is [19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: texting=testing* [19:09]  Richardus Raymaker: so its possible with migration we have noth servers available 0.6.9 and 0.7.x ? [19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: no [19:09]  Dave Coyle: no [19:09]  Richardus Raymaker: noth = both [19:09]  Richardus Raymaker: auuw. thats so painbfull point [19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: once we go live with 0.7 thats it [19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: well were working it out though [19:09]  Richardus Raymaker: you migrate the region location to ? [19:10]  Nebadon Izumi: by the time we go live i pretty much will have tested all migration scenarios [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: it will just be a matter of downing your region [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating softare [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating ini files [19:10] Richardus Raymaker: crossing fingers [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: restart your sim [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: no one should loose locations [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: we'll migrate the region table as well [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: so if you cant migrate that day [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: you will have time [19:10] Nebadon Izumi: your sims just wont be accessible [19:11] Richardus Raymaker: the migration im not worried about. its more the pile of config files x 23 [19:11] Nebadon Izumi: but your location wont be lost [19:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya it wont be so bad [19:11] Nebadon Izumi: we'll have new configs posted on the website [19:11] Nebadon Izumi: and we'll be around to help people [19:11] Richardus Raymaker: still need to adjust every one for ports and database for mysql etc. [19:11]  Richardus Raymaker: but it saves work [19:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya its gonna be a bit of work [19:12] Nebadon Izumi: but its not that bad [19:12] Nebadon Izumi: most everyones update scripts will still work [19:12] Nebadon Izumi: its not change that drasticly [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be some new files eventually [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: for osprofies [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: but that probably wont be immediate [19:13] Richardus Raymaker: i saw already some new ini files [19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be 1 new dll people who dont use osgrid releases will have to drop in [19:13]  Nebadon Izumi: http://download.danger.osgrid.org/OpenSim.ini.txt [19:14] Richardus Raymaker: what about osserach ? still dll ? [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: http://download.danger.osgrid.org/GridCommoni.ini.txt [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: are some examples [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: they wont be exactly the same [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but its a good sample [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: ossearch yes [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but there is a new dll [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: same name just newer version [19:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will be available in downloads [19:15] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be sure to make sure all this is known in the announcment [19:15] Nebadon Izumi: and i'll probably have a release available atleast 24 hours prior t the actual switch over [19:15] Nebadon Izumi: for those who want to get an early start on converting to 0.7 [19:16] Richardus Raymaker: maby idea to have all the needed modules on the migration page as download [19:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the plan [19:16] Dave Coyle: we'll make a few announcements. when we pick the date we'll announce it at least a week in advance. [19:16] Richardus Raymaker: do it at least 2 weekends before migaryion. its done at workday or in weekend ? [19:17] Richardus Raymaker: migration [19:17] Nebadon Izumi: its not going to matter really Richardus [19:17] Nebadon Izumi: if it takes people a few days to update that wont be a big problem [19:17] Dave Coyle: no, we can't guarantee 2 weekends notice [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: even if we did people probably still wouldnt know [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: people tend to not read our announcments anyway [19:18] Richardus Raymaker: ok. i dont have problem with that. but you can wait for strange noise [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya people are gonna complain no matter what we do [19:18]  Richardus Raymaker: the in the viewer dont work. best works on the activity screen at lest there. [19:18] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll make sure we give ample notice [19:19] Dave Coyle: scheduling is really about when we admins are free for a long block of time to actually run the migration. regions can be upgraded at the operator's leisure. [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: honestly [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: somtimes dave will make news announcments [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont even see them on the loginscreen [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: until days later [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [19:19] Richardus Raymaker: dont tell LL. :O [19:19] Nebadon Izumi: the loginscreen is usually a big blur for me [19:20]  Richardus Raymaker: sounds like some cache dont get refreshed [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: no they are there [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: i just dont see em [19:20]  paulie Flomar is Online [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: brain fail [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: just moving to fast [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: dont take the time to look at it usually [19:20] Richardus Raymaker: for some reason in the viewer i look at thge bottom, clikc login. [19:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever really take notice of the loginscreen is when i myself post news [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [19:21] Richardus Raymaker: lol [19:21] Dave Coyle: so hows that WP sqlite migration coming? [19:21] Quilzie Xemax: I usually go: "Hm, okay no red thing, huh nice picture. Right time to login..." [19:21] Richardus Raymaker: wel, fonts are small for me. so important things you miss easy if its not big [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: looks ready [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: let me log in and test MOAP [19:21] Nebadon Izumi: brb [19:21] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm ehh. its here more clikc -> click -> clikc [19:22] Nebadon Izumi: heh music channel is working right off the bat [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats a good sign [19:23] Nebadon Izumi: prims are there [19:23] Richardus Raymaker: wich viewer nebadon ? [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: SL 2 [19:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya this seems to be working [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: its SL Viewer 2.1.1 [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: MOAP is working though [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: so i guess it worked fine [19:25] Nebadon Izumi: everything looks fine otherwise [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: regualr media works too [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: videos [19:26] Nebadon Izumi: heh i have music / moap and video stream all going at same time [19:26] Richardus Raymaker: wrong viewer. so i need to wait [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the only way to test MOAP is viewer 2 [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: no TPV's accept kirsten have MOAP [19:27] Dave Coyle: i'm gonna log out of here and pop over w/ V2 [19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: but kirstens doesnt even run for me [19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ok Dave [19:27] Dave Coyle is Offline [19:27] Nebadon Izumi: doh [19:27] Richardus Raymaker: still waiting for the old gui [19:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya [19:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence is moving to SL2 soon [19:28] Nebadon Izumi: but their plan is to emulate the old interface a bit more [19:28] Richardus Raymaker: i know. [19:29] Richardus Raymaker: as long the keep the chat input box in the chat window. thats really painfull in kirsten. [19:46] Richardus Raymaker: bye penny, nebadon [19:46] Gennifer Eros is Online [19:58] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)