Chat log from the meeting on 2018-07-31

Summary - The meeting has got its own region with a bit of stuff to test on it - everyone is invited to test stuff on this region (URL to be added here - LOL) - Discussion about configurable delays for LSL functions - llSetPrimitiveParams can set normal and specular maps too in master - a bit of chit chat about OpenGL deprecated by Apple [10:47] Sheera Khan: wasn't there a Mantis about viewer crashes if Var regions and regular regions are neighbours? [10:47] Bill Blight: IF there are more than one per side [10:47] Bill Blight: yes [10:47] Bill Blight: so only one per side, all good [10:48] Sheera Khan: ah, ok... didn't recall that from reading the Mantis [10:51] Bill Blight: I put out some of the things people complain are broken on 9x [10:51] Bill Blight: we are sitting inside a mesh building, NPC, vehicles, [10:51] Sheera Khan: great idea:-) [10:54] NPC 2014 Jeep Wrangler - Driveable - Beach Version v6: :: is tuned for ubODE [10:54] Sheera Khan: I'ld so love to convince my admins to skip 0.9.0.x and jump right onto the 0.9.1.x trail [10:55] Sheera Khan: and if it only were for the support of scripted materials [10:55] Bill Blight: umm [10:55] Bill Blight: they work now [10:56] Sheera Khan: yes, they work, but I thought on 0.9.1+ [10:56] Bill Blight: they work on master [10:56] Bill Blight: yes [11:00] Bill Blight: ao's off or the chairs might set you funny, evidently I put a low priority animation in them [11:01] Bill Blight: Sand is warm, Beer is cold, and the water is fine .. [11:01] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: my AO is on and I sat ok (as far as I can see) [11:01] Bill Blight: you are using a viewer ao though [11:04] Ubit Umarov: err who did bring all those cars? [11:05] Bill Blight: I did of course [11:05] Ubit Umarov: you know gas price jsut went up ? [11:05] Bill Blight: those run on beer [11:05] Bill Blight: cheap lite beer [11:05] Bill Blight: nobody should be drinking that anyway [11:05] Ubit Umarov: we should drink that [11:06] Sheera Khan: Light ol as it is called in norsk ^^ [11:06] Ubit Umarov: ahh that beer of yours? [11:06] woodenbarstool1 flüstert: This is a Andrew's private Chair [11:06] Ubit Umarov: ok only good for cars really [11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This chair has my name on it but it won't let me sit on it. :P [11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org looks at Bill [11:07] Ubit Umarov: with all this summer time, guess this is a nicer place for a meeting :) [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's better. Thanks, Bill. [11:08] Bill Blight: I had a typo in your uuid andrew [11:08] Ubit Umarov: still low rez cost ( ignoring cars ) [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, that would do it. If you C&P it helps avoid those errors. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: Thanks Bill from setting it up and hosting us on one of his machines [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Welcome everyone to our new meeting location (until we relocate yet again). [11:09] Bill Blight: well I wanted it to be light here, but still have things that people might find interesting [11:09] Bill Blight: and feel free to destroy the place, I have an oar [11:09] Bill Blight: LOL [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, just set it to autoreturn objects to help keep it tidy. [11:10] Bill Blight: yeah I will do that, but just as easy to roll back an oar [11:10] Ubit Umarov: don't worry ill crash it as soon i ride one of those things [11:11] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Any free beer here? [11:11] Bill Blight: Ucrashit [11:11] Sheera Khan: You have your name for a reason @Ubrokeit [11:11] Ubit Umarov: yes Eldovar.Lamilton but its Bill's beer.. drink at your own risk [11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, true. In which case you need to update the OAR or I won't be able to sit after a roll back. [11:12] Bill Blight: I'm making a new oar right now [11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I see Bill even put an appropriate description for this region [11:12] Ubit Umarov: so what news do you have for us today ? [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The only thing I could mention in the way of news is that there have been four code changes since the last meeting. [11:13] Sheera Khan: A new region :-) Var with several components some peple say are broken in OS 0.9... [11:14] Fu Barr: lol - no news is good news... [11:14] Bill Blight: well, things like that is why this is a var with all the bells and whistles [11:15] Sheera Khan: will this place remain on between the meetings? [11:15] Bill Blight: yes [11:15] Bill Blight: it is in my datacenter [11:15] Bill Blight: so it will be up always [11:15] Bill Blight: unless Ubit breaks it [11:15] Ubit Umarov: ( that is when is not crashed ) [11:15] Sheera Khan: so I could tell people to come here and test their hearts out on master? [11:15] Bill Blight: yep [11:16] Sheera Khan: cool :-) [11:16] Bill Blight: it is my code, but it is soooo close to httptests that the diffs are not worth mentioning [11:16] Sheera Khan: I'll sure do :-) [11:16] Bill Blight: I mean master [11:16] Bill Blight: old habit [11:16] Ubit Umarov: ( or when Bill does not mistake the power switch and turns off servers instead of lights ) [11:16] Bill Blight: Servers are 2000 miles away from me, so my arms are not that long [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is some custom changes to this version of code that isn't in master. [11:17] Bill Blight: very few [11:17] Bill Blight: very very few [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Care to tell us what changes? [11:17] Ubit Umarov: yes as a few minor bugs added.. hope minor [11:17] Bill Blight: haha [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, will this be kept up-to-date with master or only updated now and then? [11:18] Bill Blight: Well the only significant changes are the variable LSL delays and the neutering of the watchdog [11:18] Bill Blight: I stay in line with master patches [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. ty [11:18] Bill Blight: usually within a matter of minutes [11:18] Sheera Khan: maybe we could organize a load test here? A party "Bring on your most heavy mesh outfits"? [11:18] Ubit Umarov: ie that patch proposed by tampa ? [11:19] Ubit Umarov: hmm or someone.. adding variable delays.. [11:19] Bill Blight: well the LSL delay change he actually got from me, and submitted it as a patch, so was mildly annoyed by that [11:19] Ubit Umarov: oops [11:19] Ubit Umarov: well and that i pretended ive not seen? [11:20] Bill Blight: if you remember we talked about it a long time ago on Project Secret [11:20] Ubit Umarov: oops oops i was not suposed to said that [11:20] Ubit Umarov: well i didn't seen much gain and losts of code [11:21] Ubit Umarov: lots.. [11:21] Bill Blight: well, when you script with fast timers, those delays do come at a cost [11:21] Bill Blight: and they add up quick, LOL [11:21] Ubit Umarov: just don't be fooled by the word "fast" and you will be fine :p [11:22] Bill Blight: but more of a personal pref, that is why they are configureable or can be set to defaults in that patch [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Which mantis has the proposed LSL delay change patch? [11:22] Ubit Umarov: well if i add that, all conf will soon be set to 0 delays everywhere [11:23] Ubit Umarov: so nahh [11:23] Bill Blight: well for instance there is a 1 second delay on llInstantmessage, so if you want to use it for vehicle throttle updates rather than whisper or llsay it causes your vehicle to pause for a second [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Simple fix. Don't use that function. :) The delays are listed in the LSL wiki so people should be aware of them if they actually read the web page about the functions they use. [11:24] Sheera Khan: might it be reasonable to limit the amount of IMs send via llInstantMessage instead of having a fixed delay? [11:24] Ubit Umarov: not sure the mantis andrew  was sometime ago i think [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, ok. I may have a look for it later. [11:25] Sheera Khan: I can see some abuse in changing those values to zero [11:25] Ubit Umarov: you seen the mantis i added about viewers crashes? [11:25] Bill Blight: but we are not SL or LL, so using that as mantra is not really a needed thing [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I thought llInstantmessage was trottled to take some of the edge of im flooding / griefing [11:26] Sheera Khan: @Andrew: reading the docs is for wuzzies only ^^ [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe, I know. :) [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure it helps on server performance if things get busy too [11:26] Sheera Khan: @Gavin: that's what came to my mind [11:26] Ubit Umarov: yes gavin.Hird some have that goal also [11:27] Bill Blight: It is but, those throttles were put in place when servers where slower as well, but it is a risk, not going to say it isn't, but it should also be a risk that each server admin can choose to take or not [11:27] Sheera Khan: that's why a cap on the number of IMs in a period of time might work also [11:28] Bill Blight: that is why I / tampa left the defaults to the LL defaults [11:28] Sheera Khan: @Bill: Problem is: an offender can chose a region where the setting is set to zero without the admin knowing about that [11:28] Bill Blight: you have to actually change them and at that point you are taking your own risks [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a reasonable approach [11:28] Ubit Umarov: well that mantis was a about something we had the idea viewers had done in var regions suport code, they did not [11:28] Bill Blight: big deal, what are they going to do chat spam you to death, kick them, restart the region [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The script delay for llIM as defined in the SL wiki is 2 seconds. There is a limit specified for the number of IMs an object can send in a 30 minute period. [11:29] Sheera Khan: would be if they decided to spam the admin... [11:29] Ubit Umarov: viewers suport to var regions is still not fully done [11:29] Sheera Khan: but what if the victim is a mere visitor or even in a different place? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: ( kokua 4,2,1 has even more issues gavin ) [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I know [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only work on the macOS code [11:30] Bill Blight: then the admin chose to take that risk, it was not forced on them [11:30] Ubit Umarov: ok [11:30] Bill Blight: Admins are ultimately responsible for their regions, not users [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to at all keep it running [11:30] Ubit Umarov: alch minimap is not good also [11:30] Sheera Khan: but the victim has to endure it without any measure to defend against it [11:30] Ubit Umarov: no idea about singu.. not testing it for ages.. [11:31] Sheera Khan: well muting could help though [11:31] Ubit Umarov: FS actually seems having less issues now [11:31] Ubit Umarov: but all that mantis one [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so to be able to fix stuff I have started to convert over 13900 BOOLs defied as S32 to real bools in the viewer [11:31] Bill Blight: there are much worse ways without delays I can, if the right things are enabled, do nasty things to an avatar, so it is just like any other setting. [11:31] Bill Blight: you accept the risk [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: defined* [11:32] Bill Blight: Like certain peoples regions who have set all OSSL functions to TRUE [11:32] Ubit Umarov: well tradional c bools where ints :) [11:32] Sheera Khan: oh yeah :-/ [11:32] Bill Blight: Chat spam really is low on the list for griefers [11:32] Ubit Umarov: "c bools" [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I am deBOOLing [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, someone who does that is just asking for trouble. [11:33] Bill Blight: well, they are out there [11:33] Bill Blight: but again, personal choice [11:33] Sheera Khan: some people really do ... [11:33] Bill Blight: which is what opensource code is about [11:34] Bill Blight: You can't protect people from themselves [11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill, true. [11:35] Bill Blight: my reason for doing it was less about doing it and more about, "Why should we do it that way just because LL does it that way?" [11:35] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: This region lacks an NPC refilling the drinks ^^ [11:35] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: lol Sheera [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some of what LL does is from hard gained experience [11:35] Bill Blight: well the bartender will be back, at some point [11:36] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: invite Berta over? ;-) [11:36] Bill Blight: and some of what LL does is for the sake of control [11:36] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: something like that Chris ;-) [11:36] Bill Blight: also to lighten their server load to decrease costs [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or for the sake of scalability [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or for the sake of not having to kick 40 agents out of a region because "you can just restart it" [11:37] Ubit Umarov: Bill yr the host .. you should be servicing drinks [11:37] Bill Blight: but again there is no reason that the defaults can't stay, as I have done, but allow admins to make their own choice without needing to edit the code. [11:37] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Bill [11:37] Bill Blight: HAHA, I'm not serving you anything but a hard time Ubit [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:38] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: :-) [11:38] Bill Blight: so, anyway [11:38] Bill Blight: did not mean to sidetrack the meeting with the delay conversation [11:38] Aiden Frimon: I agree with you Bill, we shouldn't be soing things just because SL is oing them ... only if it suits our needs [11:38] Ubit Umarov: what delay? [11:39] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, it sure is development related ;-) [11:39] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:39] Bill Blight: there is already too many things we are slave to LL for, why not break the chains at every point we can [11:39] Aiden Frimon: agree [11:39] Ubit Umarov: well about that.. [11:40] Ubit Umarov: stop that :p [11:40] Ubit Umarov: lol [11:40] Bill Blight: well, without breaking the viewer [11:40] Bill Blight: LOL [11:40] Ubit Umarov: many things LL did do make sense [11:40] Bill Blight: and a million things don't [11:40] Ubit Umarov: well possible,, but some do make sense.. [11:40] Aiden Frimon: Well, yes but we need to start doing things that will work for us [11:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: @ Ubit: bc of Ruth and Roth I'ld like the Metro Admins to look into 0.9.1.x as our next release and skipping 0.9.0 entirely. Do you have an estimate how far 0.9.1.x from having a release candidate/release? [11:41] Ubit Umarov: yes Aiden, again where it does make sense [11:41] Ubit Umarov: no Sheera.Khan [11:41] Ubit Umarov: it seems stable now.. we are on it [11:41] Bill Blight: beat it up [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Why would two new default avatars mean a big jump in version number? [11:42] Bill Blight: beat the crap out of the sim [11:42] Bill Blight: one of the reasons I put it here [11:42] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: bc of scriptable materials [11:42] Bill Blight: You don't actually need those for Ruth and Roth, but people want them [11:42] Ubit Umarov: well i don't see direct relation with avatars either, but ok :) Ahh that [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Do we have scriptable materials or is that still "coming soon"? [11:43] Bill Blight: they work [11:43] Fu Barr feels more stupid than usual... scriptable materials? [11:43] Bill Blight: they break sometimes once in a few thousand [11:43] Ubit Umarov: hm ? [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I haven't looked at the new functions to do that. [11:43] Ubit Umarov: what do u mean they break ? [11:44] Bill Blight: I was able to break it by changing materials a lot and fast with a script, but that was a, see if I can break it test, and it took a LONG TIME [11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: @Fu: you can set the specular and normal maps in 0.9.1.x [11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: via script that is [11:44] Ubit Umarov: hmm ok [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, did the grid code break or the viewer? [11:44] Fu Barr: ah. ok. penny droppeth. [11:44] Fu Barr: thnx :) [11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: :-) [11:44] Bill Blight: well the viewer quit getting the updates [11:44] Bill Blight: so take your pic [11:44] Bill Blight: console looked fine [11:45] Ubit Umarov: opensim.life and a few other grids are on master i think [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok. WGP would indicate if the grid code is still sending updates or not. [11:45] Ubit Umarov: osg will .. after the osgb celebrations [11:45] Bill Blight: but litterally I was in like 10000 changes [11:45] Bill Blight: before it started to fail [11:46] Bill Blight: so to me it was not worth reporting [11:46] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sorry - AFK for a moment [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps a throttle kicked in? [11:46] Bill Blight: that is possible [11:47] Ubit Umarov: .. back on the street... [11:47] Ubit Umarov: .. so many times.. it happens 2 fast... [11:47] Ubit Umarov: .. the eye of the tiger.... [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: What are the names of some of the materials scripting functions? I'll read up on them after this meeting. [11:47] Ubit Umarov: oops [11:48] Bill Blight: llSetPrimitiveParams [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what viewer was it tested on? [11:49] Bill Blight: I tested on FS, and Singu, singu lasted longer, I did not test on Kokua because there has been no newer windows version for me to compare recent viewers [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the most recent FS? [11:50] Bill Blight: well at the time [11:50] Bill Blight: this was a bit ago when the functions were added [11:50] Bill Blight: almost 4 months ago [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok ... there has been a little trickle of LL changes to the material handling code over the last few months, so things might have changed [11:51] Ubit Umarov: i just installed last FS. almos no testing so far [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some is part of the "Love me Render" project and some is general cleanup [11:51] Ubit Umarov: from the changes log.. well [11:51] Bill Blight: As I said, since it took around 10k of iterations to make it seem to fail, and they were not slow changes I felt it was not worth reporting [11:51] Ubit Umarov: again they just killed things for opensim [11:52] Ubit Umarov: that should had stayed as options [11:52] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: like what, Ubit? [11:52] Ubit Umarov: like the new FSEnforce... [11:52] Ubit Umarov: if the prims are bad to the viewer, we should had a option to see them [11:52] Bill Blight: I'm using a custom version of FS with the httppipeline re-enabled for opensim [11:52] Bill Blight: based on their latest code [11:53] Bill Blight: but was not back then [11:53] Ubit Umarov: but no.. apparently just disabled for opensim [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok. I'll have a closer look at the changes to the primitive params call. [11:53] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=ee6034f75159b0cc623533fd86e4ff45a11890db [11:53] Bill Blight: that was the commit on the materials [11:53] Ubit Umarov: and the mesh upload physics analise, wll issue is not opensim its the viewer code [11:54] Ubit Umarov: but they disabled it for opensim.. [11:54] Bill Blight: not in my viewer ... LOL [11:54] Bill Blight: I turned that back on [11:54] Bill Blight: LOL [11:54] Ubit Umarov: most like same viewer on sl wil have exaclty same problems [11:54] Ubit Umarov: ie the version for SL and opensim [11:54] Bill Blight: yes they did an ifopensim on that decompose [11:55] Bill Blight: and disabled it, same for the httppipleline [11:55] Ubit Umarov: adn i did upload meshes with that option.. and worked. just we do not recomend bc of the viewers issues [11:55] Bill Blight: but the worst part is they did not remove the pipleline from the menu, you can still think you turned it on, but it is force disabled [11:55] Ubit Umarov: well works on ubode.. don't remember if i did test with bullet.. but should work also [11:56] Ubit Umarov: if the viewer does not upload a broken mess [11:56] Fu Barr: ehhh, that seems a bit 'silly' - why are they disabling stuff vis a vis opensim in the first place? [11:56] Ubit Umarov: fast "fix" fu [11:56] Bill Blight: again the whole, "Protect people from themselves" thing [11:56] Fu Barr: hmmm. how tedious. [11:56] Bill Blight: people learn things from screwing up, LOL [11:57] Fu Barr nods [11:57] Bill Blight: "Don't stick that fork in the wall socket!!" [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because the difference in behavior becomes wider and wider between SL and OpenSim, and FS is basically a SL viewer [11:57] Ubit Umarov: well no big deal those 2, for now at least [11:57] Ubit Umarov: they do follow our own recommendations after all [11:58] Ubit Umarov: but then.. we can't test.. well whatever.. there are other viewers [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that was the reason for splitting the codebase [11:58] Ubit Umarov: and also on this.. [11:59] Ubit Umarov: even considering the "excelent" relations btw opensim devs and viewer devs [11:59] Ubit Umarov: coff coff coff [11:59] Ubit Umarov: well one must understand that mixed mode viewer is beening harder and jarder to keep [11:59] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: As far as I see from the viewers, they all are SecondLife first, and if the viewers accidentally can work with Opensim, they don't care. Does anyone see any chance that we get someone interested in building an Opensim specific viewer (and if that happens to work with SL too, it's ok)? [12:00] Ubit Umarov: adding conditional code for opensim here and there is not that easy [12:00] Ubit Umarov: so we must give some consideration to the viewer dev that keep doing it [12:00] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I thought about the Kokua people ... making Kokua an Opensim viewer ? [12:00] Ubit Umarov: viewer devs.. [12:01] JayR Cela: Metropolis Grid has an update HIPPO viewer available for download / I have not tried it [12:01] Bill Blight: Well that would be Gavin [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Eldovar, There are (or were) a couple of people who have talked about making an OS specific viewer. I don't know if anything much happened code wise. [12:01] Bill Blight: Gavin is the only Kokua dev that is active [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hippo? hehe... I haven't used that viewer in a very long time. [12:01] Fu Barr: seems like a major endeavour... [12:01] Aiden Frimon: What of the "Moses project" or was that just a military function? [12:02] Ubit Umarov: well it is easier to say than do... [12:02] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Oh, good to know. And especially happy to meet you, Gavin :) [12:02] Aiden Frimon: they were suppose to be making a viewer for opensim [12:02] Bill Blight: MOSES is dead [12:02] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Moses seems to be closed shop now [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I can suggest a one line change to viewer code for you. [12:02] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I dont think the MOSEs project is about any more. [12:02] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: The lead left [12:02] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: back :-) [12:02] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ok [12:03] Aiden Frimon: yeah, haven't heard much from it [12:03] Fu Barr: is there a viewer that is sort of semi sprinkled with opensim holy-pee? [12:03] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: welcome back,. Sheera [12:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: They were working with Halcyon on the web viewer but not much happened. [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am unfortunately only maintaining the macOS code because in addition to all the LL code changes, Apple makes a heck of a lot of changes in addition that keeps it hard to make the viewer running [12:03] Ubit Umarov: openGL is still there ? [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I am working on repositories where all the Windows and Linux code has been stripped out [12:04] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Yes, heard about that, Gavin .. and Apple is going to stop the support for OpenGL too, just to make things more interesting right? [12:04] JayR Cela: yeah APPLE has dropped support for OpenGL / I think [12:04] Ubit Umarov: adn will be for hmm years gavin ? [12:04] Fu Barr: for better or worse I;m still running singu - it seems to just get the job done unless I'm working on builds with more than 50k prims [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OpenGL will be around for another 5-6 years [12:04] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ok [12:04] Ubit Umarov: yes but apple does not delete things imediatly [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course they might introduce new hardware that connot run OpenGL, but all existing kit does [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: What prompted apple to decide to drop OpenGL? [12:05] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: greed, Andrew [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: They have developed Metal as a replacement [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: NIH? [12:05] Fu Barr: probably NIH [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: now 4-5 years old [12:05] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: yep [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus they have developed their own GPUs [12:05] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ty Eldovar :-) [12:05] JayR Cela: Apple has their replacement called METAL or Bare Metal ??? [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Metal [12:05] Bill Blight flüstert: before we wrap up the meeting here soon, I want to invite anybody with time to play around on the region and see how it performs for you, just so I know if I have to [12:05] Bill Blight flüstert: dev proof it [12:06] JayR Cela: thanks Bill [12:06] JayR Cela: :_) [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, dev proof it. :) [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Metal-2 was introduced at the developer conference this summer [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: together with the deprecation note for OpenGL [12:06] Bill Blight: well If I don't break it on any regular schedule, you should be ok [12:07] Ubit Umarov: they totally skiped Vulcan ? [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ok [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: We have passed the top of the hour. Does anyone of you who needs to leave shortly have any other topic to raise before we wrap up for today? [12:10] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: not me [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a deBOOLed llprimitive just built, so will go test it now [12:10] Ubit Umarov: well if you want to crash the region.. [12:10] Ubit Umarov: i mean drive a bit.. [12:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: challenge accepted [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers everyone [12:11] Ubit Umarov: bill did places those cars and boats.. [12:11] Ubit Umarov: placed.. [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I see there are a couple of other primitive param options since the materials changes. I will check the code to see if they are implemented or not.