Chat log from the meeting on 2010-06-22

[09:16] xena little is Online [09:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [09:26] Entering god mode, level 255 [09:28] Edie Stewart is Online [09:39] Matto Destiny is Online [09:46] Richardus Raymaker is Online [09:46] Richardus Raymaker is Offline [09:46] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed [09:47] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed [09:47] UUID Speaker: Renia Grabowska: 63c7adee-4304-0f29-36aa-72d5002d54ed [09:47] Richardus Raymaker is Online [09:51] Erich Burner is Offline [09:51] Richardus Raymaker is Online [09:52] Deana Later gave you OSG 3B Balloons. [09:53] Selected engine unavailable. Running script on XEngine [09:53] Selected engine unavailable. Running script on XEngine [09:53] Repudiator quann is Online [09:54] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon [09:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello [09:55] Richardus Raymaker: do you know if there's a freeswitch expert ? [09:55] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not sure really [09:55] Nebadon Izumi: Snoopy maybe [09:55] Richardus Raymaker: ok, then its trail and error. [09:55] Richardus Raymaker: yes, snoopy use it [09:56]  Matto Destiny: hi all [09:56] Richardus Raymaker: how can my viewer says 0fps and opensim syays nothing wrong ? [09:56] Richardus Raymaker: helloo matto [09:56] Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku [09:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, been on 64-bit for about a week now. It does seem to run a little smoother, though at the cost of about 25% more memory usage (not an issue for me personally though). And I'm seeing the memory leakage now lol. [09:57] Warin Cascabel is Online [09:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya [09:58]  Richardus Raymaker: in what way memory leakage ? i start to work with64bit soon to [09:58] Nebadon Izumi: it wont run out as memory as quickly though [09:58] Nebadon Izumi: if you have enough physical ram that is [09:58]  Vampir Draken: hiya [09:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello [09:58] OtakuMegane Desu: In that the leak is noticeable. On 32-bit it was there but it could take a week or two before it was really noticed. 64-bit shows in a day or two [09:58] Matto Destiny: hiya Vampir [09:58] Richardus Raymaker: are there more that have the idea internet is bad the last few days ? [09:58] Richardus Raymaker: hi vampir [09:59] Richardus Raymaker: hope someone find the right cork for the leak soon. [09:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny [09:59] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-) [09:59]  Warin Cascabel: Hi, everyone. Sorry if I'm standing on someone, I am blind today (Radegast) [09:59]  OtakuMegane Desu: One of the later mono releases. It's pretty much mono's fault [10:00]  Richardus Raymaker: i use 2.4.2.3 and i will use that for 64bit to [10:00]  Penny Lane: Hi Warin. Move 1 meter to your right, and select Sit. [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: i think your ok Warin [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: oh wait [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: no i didnt see penny [10:00]  Richardus Raymaker: aha there hi warin [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: Far as I know any real memory leaks in opensim itself were plugged a while back [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: until i cammed a bit [10:00]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: there you go [10:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: Mono just has no useful garbage collection [10:00]  Warin Cascabel: Hope I'm sitting on a chair - it just says "Primitive". :) [10:00] Penny Lane: Perfect, Warin, you're sat next to me, and Neb on the other side of me [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: you are Warin [10:00]  Warin Cascabel: Excellent, thanks. [10:01]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online [10:02]  Richardus Raymaker: you have a black face warin [10:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: Anyway, only other thing is 64-bit seems to bump base memory usage about 20%-25%. On the plus side things do seem a bit smoother and of course you can go much longer before running out of RAM, depending how much you have installed. [10:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi armin [10:02]  Richardus Raymaker: oops. sorry. hi justin [10:02]  Penny Lane: Hi Armin [10:02]  Penny Lane: Hi JCC [10:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello richardus, penny, gentlepeople [10:02]  Penny Lane: Gentle? [10:02]  Warin Cascabel: Hello, Justin [10:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hey Jusitn [10:02]  Penny Lane sharpens teeth [10:02]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin* [10:03] Tesira Luco is Offline [10:03] Matto Destiny: hiya :) [10:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: alright then. not so gentle :) [10:03] Penny Lane chuckles gently [10:03] Warin Cascabel: Heh [10:03] Penny Lane: Hi Matto [10:04] Justin Clark-Casey burps [10:04] Penny Lane: Over in today's AW Groupies meeting in SL, we've just proposed holding 1 meeting per month in OSgrid, starting next week I think. [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: So justin did you see that bug about Xengine that seems to have cropped up in 0.6.9 post fixes ? [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: i breifly looked at the mantis [10:04] Warin Cascabel: Nice, Penny. What does AW stand for in this context? [10:04] Penny Lane: That'll stress OSgrid nicely :-) [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i think its post-fixes anyway [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I did see the note - but I thought the original report was that it was fine in 0.6.9... [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: ah, so it might be okay in 0.6.9 but broken in post-fixes? [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i thought that too unless i misunderstood it maybe [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i gotta read it again [10:05]  Penny Lane: Warin: AWG was Architecture Working Group, and AWG Groupies is the SL community arm of AWG. [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that was my take [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: that would be interesting [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: apparantly its broke since the last OSgrid release [10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I saw you were having problems with meshing in 0.7-rc1? [10:05]  Warin Cascabel: Aha. :) When will the next meeting here be? [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: so sometime maybe since 06-04-2010 [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that sounds about right... I assumed that Melnaie was looking at it by the updates she made to the mantis [10:06] Penny Lane: JCC: we haven't picked a victim ^W host sim yet :P [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok ya i wasnt sure what was going on [10:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: might be good to confirm that with her. If it's also broken in post-fixes then it shouldnt' be so hard to track down [10:07] Warin Cascabel: Penny, perhaps you can stress-test the OSgrid Welcome Station. [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: i did see she commented didnt notice if anyone took ownership though [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok [10:07]  Warin Cascabel: But let me know how many people you expect, Penny; I can put out additional seating if it's needed. [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: melanie usually handles these scripting issues. If I look at it then it will take me some time to figure everything out, though I will if that becomes necessary [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok no problem [10:07] Penny Lane: Warin: I didn't even know there was a Welcome Station. Lbsa seemed the closest to that :-) [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: only reason i asked you is because i know melanies not really working on 0.6.9-post-fixes [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i wasnt sure if you thought maybe something you might have done had some kind of effect [10:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I understand it's broken in 0.8-rc1 as well though [10:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: no, it's definitely due to one of her patches [10:08]  Region Showcase Kiosk: Received 24 regions from database. [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ok [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt know she had any recent patches in post-fixes [10:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I shouldn't say that... definitely = almost certainly :) [10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh yeah, she has been putting stuff in [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ok i'll go over it better then [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: not that much, admittedly [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i was mostly assuming [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: but it's broken in 0.7-rc1 too, I understand [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: so maybe something that got back ported then [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: that should also help make it easier to find [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: exactly [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: alright i guess that was my confusion then [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i assumed it was post-fixes only [10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: remind me the mantis number? [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: 4775 i think [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: hoi dahlia [10:10] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [10:10]  Richardus Raymaker: hi daena [10:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [10:10]  Penny Lane: Hoi Dahlia! [10:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie assigned it to herself [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ok good [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i just pulled it pu [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i had not noticed she did ok i'll chat with her then see what she thinks [10:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: and yeah, originally reported against 0.7-rc1 [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: cool ya mostly i had heard it from WhiteStar hes only been testing post-fixes [10:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: how is the 0.7-rc1 testing going, btw? [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ok we gotta figure out the mysql thing though [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: other than that it seems ok so far [10:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: the mesh problem disappeared? [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:12]  Dahlia Trimble: mesh problem? [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva did something not really sure exactly what [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: whats wrong with mysql ? still the connection string ? [10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: oh interesting - I saw some changes go in but they were reverted [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i thought she was putting in more logging / debug messages [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: and ended up fixing the problem [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: it also prints the UUID now of the broken mesh [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: and i made sure to get Dahlia a copy of the object [10:13] Dahlia Trimble: you mean that problem with the sculpties on that ipad model? [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:13] Dahlia Trimble: I think that's a problem with decoding the sculpt map [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: the actual meshing prblem is not fixed [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: but now its not a fatal error [10:13] Dahlia Trimble: jpeg2000 thing [10:13] Warin Cascabel: Is it by any chance an oblong sculpt map? [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: i wonder what was the resolution on that sculpt map? [10:14] Dahlia Trimble: oblongs should work [10:14] Dahlia Trimble: well they were working on my last testing [10:14] Warin Cascabel: I've noticed an issue with recent Imprudence builds with sculpt maps less than 64x64 pixels, mostly on oblong. I don't know if it's uploading them improperly, or decoding them improperly. [10:15] Warin Cascabel: well, any texture less than 64x64, really - but I first noticed it with sculpt maps. [10:15] Richardus Raymaker: does armin know it ? [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i remember having issues even with 32x32 while back [10:15] Warin Cascabel: I believe he was in Lbsa when McCabe was testing it, yes. [10:15] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties <64x64 are not well defined, they should be at least 64x64 for any viewer [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: for a long while SL was 32x32 wasnt it? [10:16] Warin Cascabel: For an oblong sculpt map, is the important thing the total pixel area, or the linear dimensions? [10:16] Dahlia Trimble: no, 32x32 is too small, some appear to work tho [10:16] Warin Cascabel: 32x32 vertices is the standard grid, but 64x64 images produce better results for some reasons. [10:16] Dahlia Trimble: best practice is 64^2 pixels [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i have found that also [10:17] UUID Speaker: Prince Umarov: 08230471-d430-d9d5-6dc9-8660a3f96620 [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: does your latest 0.6.9-post-fixes distro appear to be working as before? I want to know if my gelding of the group permissions checking worked [10:17] Dahlia Trimble: standard is 33x33 [10:17] Dahlia Trimble: which is why 32x32 fails [10:17] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: this simulator is running our release version [10:17] Dahlia Trimble: but it needs to be a power of 2 [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: it would basiclly be the same thing as release accept mysql [10:18] Dahlia Trimble: so they use 64x64 and samplke [10:18] Warin Cascabel: oh, 33x33? no wonder. [10:18] Dahlia Trimble: *sample [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, thanks [10:18] Dahlia Trimble: and anything larger than 64^2 is wasted space [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: feels ok [10:18]  Dahlia Trimble: and dont use alpha channels [10:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 85c20e1: 2010-06-11 19:40:09 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya at one point the Lindens hinted at HD sculpty support [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: but that never came to be [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i saw video of it on beta grid [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: It looks like they're concentrating on mesh now [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: really high res sculpty with flexy [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:19]  Dahlia Trimble: mesh is just better [10:19] Warin Cascabel: At one time there was a proposal to use the alpha channel of a sculpt map as a "stiffness" parameter for flexi sculpts, but I don't know if it was ever actually implemented. [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya loads faster im sure [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: Flexi dont work atm with sculpt :( [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: sculpty have the nasty habbit of flooding the asset server out [10:19]  Warin Cascabel: Some viewers support it, Richardus. [10:19]  Dahlia Trimble: I think hippo does [10:19]  Dahlia Trimble: it;s not pretty tho [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: if you made an entire sim out of sculpty using 15,000 uniquie sculpties [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: omg [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be not good [10:20]  Warin Cascabel: Meerkat did, but yeah, not pretty there either. [10:20]  WhiteStar Magic is Online [10:20]  Warin Cascabel: In what way do sculpties flood the asset server? [10:20]  Deana Later: ... [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: well i just mean its alot of assets loading down [10:20]  Richardus Raymaker: I use sculpt rocks, but only 4-5 different ones. more types you dont need [10:20]  Deana Later makes a note [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL terms [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its huge difference [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: when you have 100,000 active users [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: concurent users i mean [10:21] Dahlia Trimble: hmmm laggy today [10:21] Warin Cascabel: No worse than the textures - better, I would imagine, given many creators' propensity for using unnecessarily large textures on every surface. [10:21] UUID Speaker: Prince Umarov: 08230471-d430-d9d5-6dc9-8660a3f96620 [10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: texture tax! [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: sim stats look solid [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, internet seems a bit weird anyway last 2-3 days [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: im starting to wonder if 10mbs internet connection isnt enough [10:21] WhiteStar Magic: maybe cause I just logged directly here [10:21] Deana Later hangs her head and tries to not look guilty [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: right Warin im comparing Sculpty to Mesh though [10:21] Dahlia Trimble: maybe they are playing with the "kill switch" [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: if what LL says is true about no vertex limit [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: you talk about the abuse of 1024x1024 textures warin ? [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: and it would load considerably faster [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: then you could make 1 mesh that = 100 sculpty [10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:22] Warin Cascabel: Yes, Richardus. [10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Shouldn't need 1024x1024 unless you're in the 20m+ range or it's an animation [10:23] Deana Later: omg i'm a texture abuser now to boot? [10:23] Warin Cascabel: Of course, it depends on their vertex-to-prim ratio, Nebadon. [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:23] Dahlia Trimble: I think people like to believe that a larger sculpt map means a better sculptie, but actually it's worse because you get compression artifacts [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: well sure im just saying a really complex mesh will load considerably faster than 100 sculpty would [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: does seem rather laggy today [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: regardless of the conversion ratio [10:24] Richardus Raymaker: 1024x1024 is only usefull with very large prims to [10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: though im not really sure how optimized Collada is for streaming either [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: i guess time will tell [10:24] Haku Mhia: is this turning into a plan to drop sculpts for meshes ? [10:24] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties can transmit very efficiently [10:24] Warin Cascabel: I doubt sculpts wil be dropped, Haku; that would break a lot of existing content. [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess they can, but we nor SL does [10:24] Richardus Raymaker: are the easy to make compaered with sculpts ? [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: just go visit SL7B [10:24] Dahlia Trimble: from what I've heard, I dont think the new LL mesh encoding is all that efficient for space [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: tell me if they load "efficiently" [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: hi haku [10:25] Haku Mhia: it's the same really [10:25] Haku Mhia: you make a mesh and convert it into a sculpt map [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya collada files are big [10:25] Haku Mhia: hai rich [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dont undestand how they are gonna pull off no vertex limit collada [10:25] Dahlia Trimble: keyword: "can" [10:25] Sarah Kline: much easier..you extrude the shape you want rather than tweak a 32x33 mesh [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: are they going to allow 50mb mesh upload [10:25] Haku Mhia: wtf? [10:25] OtakuMegane Desu: Too many sculpts and it's not gonna matter much anyway if the end user can't even get it all to rez without waiting half an hour or something [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: argh nebadan. then a sim takes hours to load [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: i made a collada export of the beast bike i was making out of sculpty in wings [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: the file was pretty big if i recall [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: and it wasnt even textured [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: it was just meshes only [10:26] Dahlia Trimble: SL meshes also count against prim allocation, the more complex the mesh, the more prims it costs [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:26]  Richardus Raymaker: aaah, so thats why LL wants meshes [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: have they hinted at all what the conversion would be? [10:27] Richardus Raymaker: more prims needed more land needed [10:27] Dahlia Trimble: so you can have "unlimited" verts, but only of you have enough prim allocation [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:27]  OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Their move makes more sense now [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: still, that wont prevent people from wearing the massive meshes [10:27] WhiteStar Magic: you bet there was always a L$ factor involved.... [10:27] Dahlia Trimble: so be carefule with subdivision ;) [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: as far sa I know there wont be limits on avatar scores [10:28]  Edie Stewart is Offline [10:28]  Warin Cascabel: Regarding efficiency, it depends on how much they can compress down the mesh data. A 64x64 sculpt map, uncompressed, is about 12KB for 1089 vertices - about 12 bytes per vertex. [10:28]  Dahlia Trimble: scores? [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: or sorry cost [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: whatever that score point thing rating you get [10:28]  Richardus Raymaker: Avatar rendering costs [10:28]  Sarah Kline: would the mesh just not draw like a prim would? [10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya they are both mesh [10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: prims are mesh too [10:29]  Dahlia Trimble: prims are meshes [10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its just very simple shapes [10:29]  OtakuMegane Desu: Just very simple ones [10:29]  Warin Cascabel: heh [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: reduced to the most minimum of vertexs [10:29] Dahlia Trimble: not always simple [10:29] Sarah Kline: torus being the most vertices when tortured [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: well ya torus are pretty nasty, spheres [10:29] Warin Cascabel: They're transmitted parametrically to the viewer, which then converts the parametric data into a mesh to be rendered. [10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: And for the majority of stuff, they're plenty to work with [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: but simple compared to some of the meshes you will find on say turbosquid [10:30] Warin Cascabel: Standard prims are much more efficient to transmit than either sculpts or true mesh data. [10:30] Dahlia Trimble: some prims are around 4000 vertices [10:30] Dahlia Trimble: but most are far fewer [10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: Then if you need more complex structures you go on to sculpts and such [10:30] Edie Stewart is Online [10:31] Haku Mhia: i suppose easy of use for the end user is also a factor [10:31] Warin Cascabel: According to... I forget his name, but the Linden who developed the sculpts... a sculptie has the same number of vertices as a torus. [10:31] Haku Mhia: is it easyer for them to get the shape they want tourtureing prims or creating a mesh ? [10:31] Warin Cascabel: Depends on the shape. [10:31] Dahlia Trimble: sculpties usually have 33x33 verts, ~1024 [10:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Depends on complexity and what it is [10:31]  Richardus Raymaker: wich side does the shape creation of sculpt ? client or server ? [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: client [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: server just feeds out raw data [10:32] Richardus Raymaker: ok, then its only textures that are the pain [10:32] Dahlia Trimble: server for collisions, on OpenSim [10:32] Dahlia Trimble: not on SL tho [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya i figured he meant visually [10:32] Warin Cascabel: It's transmitted as an image where the X coordinates of the vertices are held in the red channel, Y in green, and Z in blue. [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: SL doesnt do server side physics? [10:32] Warin Cascabel: The viewer then converts that data to a mesh (and in OpenSim, the server converts it to a mesh for physical interactions). [10:33] Dahlia Trimble: no sculptie collision shapes, it's more of a rounded box shape [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: oh i see [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:33]  Warin Cascabel: Really, Dahlia? [10:33] Dahlia Trimble: in SL, yes [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [10:33] Warin Cascabel: Oh, in SL, right. [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: atleast the meshes will have proper collision [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: from the video i saw [10:33] Warin Cascabel: I was gonna say - I can walk on them just fine here. [10:33] Dahlia Trimble: OpenSim will use the actual sculptie shape if it can [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: In SL sculpties look pretty but by themselves are rather limited in function. [10:34] OtakuMegane Desu: You end up having to add normal prims for surfaces to walk on or collide with [10:34] Dahlia Trimble: good deal with a prim economy ;) [10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:35]  Richardus Raymaker: yes warin, thats so nice to walk on sculpt [10:35]  Haku Mhia: you have to do that sometimes with mega's aswell thou [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: well i think the amount of people leaving SL for OpenSim and BlueMars [10:35]  OtakuMegane Desu: Opensim on the other hand does it right and renders the sculpt physically as well. [10:35]  Dahlia Trimble: most of the time lol [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: is costing their prim economy more than actually limiting it is helping it [10:35]  Haku Mhia: make the mega's phantom and use non-mega's for the collision [10:35]  OtakuMegane Desu: Most is better than never lol [10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: they gotta change that thinking soon, or their doomed [10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: i am still wondeirng if mesh data has to be appplied to prims [10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: like a sculpt [10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Except they make most of their land profit off the whole prim limit mess [10:36] Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, I think it's similar [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: and if the video showing the meshes was using illegal Mega prims [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: or they are actually going to allow mega meshes now [10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Very, very few people would buy half-sim or larger if they didn't need the extra prim count [10:37] Warin Cascabel: It does, Nebadon, so you can walk through a "door" that opens up via the hollow parameter, etc. [10:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: LL has used megaprims pretty much since they appeared [10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: They just don't allow their normal creation [10:37] Dahlia Trimble: well prims arent really free in OpenSim either, you have more prims and it will increase your server load [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: is it not a violation to rez Megas on mainland? [10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope [10:38] Haku Mhia: yeah if ll really didnt want ppl useing mega's they would remove them from the asset servers [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: it used to be [10:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: Long as it stays on your land of course [10:38] Warin Cascabel: No, only if it interferes with others - like rezzing a megaprim on the corner of your parcel [10:38] Dahlia Trimble: its just you;re free to account for it as you wish [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: man that makes Ivory Tower of prims even more lame [10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: I think that may have been back in H1 when megaprims could screw with the physics [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: they constantly yell at me for rezzing mega prims there [10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: H4 handles megaprims just fine [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: ive been told i would be banned from the sim [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if i didnt erase them immediatly [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:38] Warin Cascabel: By LL? [10:39] Deana Later: they'd hate my house of cards [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: by Sandbox Staff [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol. I've built with some rather large megaprims before and nothing was ever said [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: not actual Lindens [10:39] Warin Cascabel: That's the region owners' policy, then, not Linden Lab's. [10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya but thats like the premeir sandbox on the grid too [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: used to be anyway [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Some region policies forbid them. [10:39] Dahlia Trimble: only problem I've had with megaprims in SL is getting the right size [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: The Linden homes don't allow them either [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:40]  Sarah Kline: through lack of understanding maybe [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: i have a couple 1000 mega prims in SL [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: finding the right one is a pain [10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Salt HUD [10:40] Richardus Raymaker: i have a 7000 mega prim box in sl [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: but its not like i even build in SL anymore [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: seems like a lot of the free sandboxes have closed [10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: search for "Sandbox" in LL [10:41]  Richardus Raymaker: Nah, dot know what to build there, and for who ?? [10:41] Dahlia Trimble: well I'm going to build a new house in SL when they ever open up meshes [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: you get 10-12 results [10:41] Dahlia Trimble: and maybe a few avatars [10:41] Warin Cascabel: Costs quite a bit of disposable income to run a free sandbox region. [10:41] Matto Destiny: i use http://megaprim.sl/ to get my mega's [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ya there used to be 100's [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: in the place search [10:41] OtakuMegane Desu: That's a lot of it. The cost [10:42] Dahlia Trimble: were'nt meshes supposed to be released in Q1? [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: honestly i could never really figure out how most people payed for thier sims in SL [10:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Which has gradually been raised over time. On top of people just getting utterly tired of dealing with the bullshit and jumping ship [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: SL has never been cheap [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: its actually cheaper now than previously [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: isnt it? [10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Not really [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: didnt it used to cost 2750$ to sign up? [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: or soemthign absurd [10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Well yeah, the initial cost. BUt that's nothing compared to the tier [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: i never could figure out how anyone could make money doing that [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:43] Warin Cascabel: Tier is quite a bit cheaper for the huge landowners, which is enraging the regular landowners. [10:43] Haku Mhia: moast ppl dont [10:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Especially since it's pegged at $295 for a private sim now [10:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Mainland still sits about $195 though [10:43] Dahlia Trimble is mainland trash [10:43] Richardus Raymaker: thats a server in the past nebadon [10:43] Richardus Raymaker: i lknow server costs, costsed ar0ound 1000-2000$ setup [10:43] Warin Cascabel is a hobo in SL. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats still absurd [10:44] Dahlia Trimble: Hobos are cool :) [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: especially considering there are 4 sims on 1 peice of hardware [10:44]  Warin Cascabel: 8 now [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: man thats some absurd profits [10:44]  OtakuMegane Desu: Of course I pay about $160 a month here for a server that's probably the same power as 3 or 4 of LLs. :P [10:44]  Warin Cascabel: from an article I read [10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:44]  Richardus Raymaker: warin, visit babbage then :) [10:45] Warin Cascabel: I've been to Babbage, why? [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: well the Class 5 servers were powerful machines [10:45] Richardus Raymaker: 4 if your lucky nebadon, or 4+ if you have bad luck [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall the basic class 5 were quad xeon with 8gb ram [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: 64 bit debian [10:45] Richardus Raymaker: 8 full sims on 1 server warin ? [10:45] Warin Cascabel: I read an article indicating that they had doubled up their servers, now putting 2 regions per core. [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya they switched to 6 core AMD i think [10:45] Sarah Kline: yes they do [10:45]  Dahlia Trimble: I thought they used AMD? [10:45] Richardus Raymaker: it looks nice there warin, would be nice here to [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: they were on Intel for a while [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: now they are back on AMD 6 core cpus i think [10:46] Richardus Raymaker: OMG, that explains the bad perfomance of everything [10:46] Sarah Kline: i saw a site that told you who your neighboring sims where [10:46] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. If you dedicated the whole thing to a sim. :P [10:46] Richardus Raymaker: instead the lower the amount the increase [10:46] OtakuMegane Desu: They may be doing 2 per core now, given the power increase compared to a few years back [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:47]  OtakuMegane Desu: They're pretty quiet about exactly what's running on backend though [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: Class 5 was the Core2 level Xeons [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: not i7 [10:47]  Warin Cascabel: OtakuMegane: a bunch of hamsters running in wheels. [10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:47] Deana Later: 30% fewer hamsters since the last lay offs [10:47] WhiteStar Magic: C=64's with Serial Cables... ;) [10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Whatever problems the sims have, is nothing compared to the asset hassles I run into when I'm on there. [10:48]  Dahlia Trimble: takes quite a few hamsters to power a Xeon [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:48]  Richardus Raymaker: hi whitestar,  [10:48]  OtakuMegane Desu: Even the crummy sims run nicely compared to assets [10:48]  WhiteStar Magic: \\yay// a Vic-20 [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: has anyone visited SL7B yet? [10:48]  OtakuMegane Desu: One minute you can rez 200 things instantly the next you can't get a basic prim unless you wait 5 minutes [10:48]  Dahlia Trimble: not yet [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: I was actually kind of impressed with the quality of it [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its slow as shit [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: but the sim is nicely built [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: the whole thing is layed out really nice [10:48]  Warin Cascabel: No, I haven't. [10:49]  Richardus Raymaker: did not know sl7B is open already [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya Yesterday [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: runs all week [10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: A lot of LL's things are nicely built but most are slow as shit too. [10:49] WhiteStar Magic: no osg booth this yr ?? [10:49] Richardus Raymaker: then i need to wait anyway till usa sleeps. :) maby then it runs better [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: when i was there it was really slow [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: some of the sims were getting SimFPS of 4 [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: PhysicsFPS of 5 [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:49]  OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:49]  Dahlia Trimble: how many avies? [10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: it was crap shoot [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: some were ok [10:50]  Warin Cascabel: ...but the PLUMAGE! [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: at the time i was there the most i saw in any one sim was 30 [10:50]  Penny Lane: I'm more interested in how Opensim is going to scale in the future, not in SL. [10:50]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well yeah, of course [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: it was 15 or 17 sims [10:51]  WhiteStar Magic: we need some OSGF Load Tests to liven things up [10:51]  Dahlia Trimble: I'm hoping Dan Lake commits some of his magic to core [10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure they will [10:51]  Richardus Raymaker: i have around 25 avatars for testing. lol [10:51] Dahlia Trimble: (speaking of scalability) [10:51] Richardus Raymaker: full clothed [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: there is a ton of optimizing we can do [10:51]  Warin Cascabel: What kind of magic, Dahlia? [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: the stuff they are doing with the load tests Warin [10:52] Penny Lane: Well magic is good'n'all, but I'd prefer scalable design, not tinkering with efficiencies. [10:52] Dahlia Trimble: his experiments with hundreds of avatars [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: alot of that is being put through analyzers and stuff [10:52] Warin Cascabel: Oh, right - I hadn't known his name. [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: after every test i send them a series of logs the simulator has generated [10:52] Dahlia Trimble: ya he's very analytical, but that's a good thing [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt they are sniffing out all kinds of things [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: though last weeks test didnt go off as we hoped [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: how it goes sometimes [10:53] Penny Lane: Not just good, but crucial. What you don't measure and analyse, you don't really know. [10:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Efficiency and scalability go together eventually. [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be doing more load tests soon im sure [10:53] Dahlia Trimble: Penny, agreed, but not always easy to accomplish in a community project [10:54] Penny Lane: Otaku: only partially. You can have a very efficient system that is utterly non-scalable, that's quite common. SL is a good example of it. [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest hitch wtih analyzing OpenSimulator [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: is the vast amount of hardware it requires to do so [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: the sciencesim loadtest is 11 servers [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: all very powerful [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: on fast pipes [10:54] Penny Lane: Nope, scalability has nothing to do with hardware. It's about algorithms. [10:54] Sarah Kline: what is the most agents we have had on an osg sim before it fell over [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: they can afford the best [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean to run these analysis [10:55] Richardus Raymaker: is it possible that a griefer can use your land owners uuid ? that sounds strange or config error. [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: to be able to run opensim through analyzers [10:55] Dahlia Trimble: and can probably use hardware that's not available to the public [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: it requires vast amount of processing power to make the sim run and still be able to collect all this data [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: its not realistic to run OpenSim this way really [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but its almost required to do this kind of analysis [10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: The max actual user agents (not bots) I think was 87...unless something beat that since then [10:56] Dahlia Trimble: Teravus has done some work improving instrumentation fairly recently [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya the most we ever got here and could still move [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: was 68 [10:56] Dahlia Trimble: well a few months back [10:56] Sarah Kline: thx Otaku [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: it froze on 69 [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but we could still log in and chat [10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: THat was with scripts turned off and such too, though [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: up to 87 [10:56] Sarah Kline: not bad ^^ [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya but under full load we had 54 or 47 at OSG2B [10:56] OtakuMegane Desu: I think it's been a while since we really pushed a fully-enabled region [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: one big problem with scalability is the protocol [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: 54 or 57* [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: forcing the region to deliver assets to each viewer is a huge load [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:57]  WhiteStar Magic: would be interesting to see how the extra threads being available will handle it [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and physics too [10:57] Penny Lane: Neb: not sure I understand why Opensim can't collect data as it runs. It costs next to nothing, as the data only goes to disk when collection buffers become full periodically. [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: physics can probably be improved tho [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: under full load Penny [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: with 1000 avatars [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: etc.. [10:58] Dahlia Trimble: Penny it does [10:58] Warin Cascabel: Gotta run, work. Bye, all [10:58] Warin Cascabel is Offline [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: its an incredible amount of data [10:58] WhiteStar Magic: Have a Good One Warin [10:58] Dahlia Trimble: bye :) [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: infact i gotta upgrade my bandwidth on my server [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: because 10Mb isnt enough [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: for these tests [10:58]  OtakuMegane Desu: Have better hardware to work with now than way back, so that can be more easily wqritten off the list of limiting factors [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: im gonna ugrade to 100Mb soon [10:59]  Penny Lane: Neb: even under full load. Collecting numbers takes no time (if it does then the code is wrong), and the memory used for buffers isn't a lot. [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: exactly [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: we know opensim is about as far from perfect as you can get [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: your assuming opensim is perfect [10:59]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [10:59]  Penny Lane: No no, there's no point analysing a perfect system, hehe :-) [11:00] Dahlia Trimble: it's a hodgepodge [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: in time i hope we do get there [11:00] OtakuMegane Desu: I can offer my server for load testing once in a while. :) [11:00] Dahlia Trimble: also good profiling tools costs $$ [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but try running OpenSimulator through a memory analyzer [11:00]  Dahlia Trimble: Intel can afford them [11:00]  Dahlia Trimble: I cant :( [11:01] Penny Lane gives Dahlia OS$1 ... oh, wait [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: like jetbains DotTraace [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:01] OtakuMegane Desu: 10mb I've always figured can work fine for moderate stuff but heavier loads and traffic it would surely be an issue [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: its absordly harsh, i couldnt even log into my own sim locally with it running [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: well profiling isnt one of my better skills, best to give the tools to another dev [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya i think alot of good data is coming out of the Intel testing [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: im positive it will all feed back into core at some point [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: once they are happy with the results [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: last weeks test was actualyl a step back [11:02] Penny Lane: Does Dan have his own team, or is part of another? [11:02] Dahlia Trimble: hope so, he's done a few nice commits in the past [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: so im sure there is a few more rounds of testing before we see anything back [11:03] Dahlia Trimble: I think he works for Mic [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: he works iwth Mic Bowman [11:03] Penny Lane: kk [11:03]  Dahlia Trimble: and he has commit access to our master repo [11:03] Penny Lane: Dan gave a very nice presentation at an IBM conference a few months ago, I enjoyed that. Showed off his scaling work. [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I will see what i can find out from Dan, im sure he'll be contacting me soon anyway for more testing [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: nice Penny ya dan is cool for sure, he has shown interest in scalability and physics [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt we'll see alot more good stuff come out of that group [11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Physics is good. [11:05] Dahlia Trimble: and he's smart [11:05] Dahlia Trimble: and skilled [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh :) [11:05]  Penny Lane: Note that scaling and scalability are two different things. You can scale an implementation a bit by tinkering with it to make it more efficient, but to make it more scalable you have to change algorithms. They're not directly related. [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: I think thats one of the requirments Intel has on the job application.. hehe [11:06]  Penny Lane: Good req, hehe [11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: or in this case, the protocol also [11:06]  Penny Lane: Yep, the protocol is key. Which is why Opensim needs to get off LL viewers to become scalable, because protocols have to change. [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe, there is still no gaurantee that new protocols would be any better [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: really depends whos writing the code i guess [11:08]  Penny Lane: You design them to be better. It's maths :-) [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: then make a new protocol [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: whoes maintaining it [11:08]  Region Showcase Kiosk: Received 24 regions from database. [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its not always good to try to keep re-inventing the wheel either [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we can probably lend to making the protocol better overall [11:09] Dahlia Trimble: time for me to turn into a large yellow squash... bye all :) [11:09] Penny Lane: See you Dahlia :-) [11:09] Sarah Kline: byes [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: kk Dahlia, ya these hours blow by so fast anymore [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, lengthy phone calls are never fun [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [11:09] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: i know i readed in the past something about new http protocol. that would be much faster and betetr for this days internet. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the stress of not worrying if the meeting would make the whole hour though is pretty much gone [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: that makes for much more relaxing meetings that just fly by now [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: huh, time for a massive refator then! [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: refactor, even [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:10] Penny Lane: Haha