Chat log from the meeting on 2014-01-08

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi is online. [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi justin [11:05] logger sewell: Hi Justin [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: Weather's fine here, although there's lots of fog. It looks pretty nice tho [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: wheater is good here. still not to cold snow or ice. i hope its staying that way [11:07] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: same here ;) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya dont come to New Jersey right now [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its pure hell [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:07] logger sewell: lol [11:07] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: blizzard hell I guess ;) [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: no all the snow melted couple days ago luckily [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its just so damn cold [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: i was outside for maybe 5 minutes [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: felt like i was in freezer for 6 hours [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: wasn't North USA and Canada awaiting -60°C this night [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: ? [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: i see terrible much clouds. but lets blame that on the wheater [11:08] Wolfgang Balehawk: hello everyone, I hope you don't mind me sitting in [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya something nasty like that Freaky [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: count 4 clouds [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: sure Wolfgang this meeting is open to all [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: and yes there will be some clouds today [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi feaky [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I got three counted for me [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: there are some breaks that will probably force people to have to upgrade [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: so we are going to have some clouds for a bit [11:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what happened to get clouds happening more often? [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I am snodering doing opensim 0.7.6.1, 0.7.5.1 and maybe earlier [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: yes i heared melanie talking about it. only 0.7.6 is ok ? [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: well there was a protocol change by LL for wearable things [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: which exposed a bug in our code [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: she talked about 0.7.6 [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: 0/7/5 [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: unforunately there is not much we can do to get around it [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: teleporting from old to new or vice versa will end in being a cloud [11:10] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: do you have some wireshark traces of that? [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: I think its not bad to have a 0.7.6.1 version top fix soem important bugs. i dont expect 0.8dev befeore fall [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I do not freaky, i am going on what Melanie has said [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: not my own testing [11:10] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I did some testing recently after going through OpenSim code for a few weeks for understanding grid level [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: let me find a snippet of what she said [11:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that is where my issues come from anyways [11:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi@all others I have not yet greeted [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: http://www.mail-archive.com/opensim-users@lists.berlios.de/msg11950.html [11:12] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         8b3a436: 2013-11-29 02:51:35 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: Jan 05 14:02:12  the 0.7 code base accesses an array without bounds checking Jan 05 14:02:31  so the SendAppearance method in LLClientView crashes out Jan 05 14:02:49  it's therefore unable to send the shape to the viewer of third persons [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, this is the rfact that the physical boob/boot params were added [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: but in older opensim versions a hardcoded number was used, which is a problem [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and causes an exception on teleport, etc. [11:13] Vivian Klees: the one I reported? [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: still prefefr to run grid on 0.8dev then 0.7.6 [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: hi vivian [11:13] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: I cannot see any clouds [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks is online. [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Fred what is you standalone running on? [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe, I haven'tcaught up with everything after my hols [11:14] Vivian Klees: anything past the 11/29 you will [11:14] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:14] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: master [11:14] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: I see fred and Wolfgang as clouds [11:14] logger sewell: hey Andrew [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks waves hello [11:15] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: 0.8.0 Dev 38148bd [11:15] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Is that also the explanation for the red avatar names on some viewers? [11:15] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: Let me rebake [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: Bob, wolfgang, andrew, fred are cloud [11:16] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: for me only Wolfang left to be cloudy [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Is Robert on holidays? [11:17] Dahlia Trimble is online. [11:17] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: yes, Wolfgang is a cloud. sorry [11:17] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: I just rebaked... any better Rich? [11:17] dan banner is online. [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: yes bob is back [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: I see him as cloud too [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: clouds, do we ever get rid of it ? [11:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: related to Bob, they recently updated to 0.7.6 on their grid [11:18] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: yes we did upgr5ade to 0.7.6 end of Dec [11:18] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: now finally Wolfgang is unclouded [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: only fred is cloud now [11:18] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi dan [11:18] Wolfgang Balehawk: <-- rebaked [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: Something else BTW: When I logged in to this sim to come to office hour, my AO wasn't working, althoug hthe HUD object was attached. Only after 10 minutes it started to work again [11:18] logger sewell: hey Dan [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: I could move and all else worked fine [11:18] dan banner: hi everyone [11:19] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: seems to work well but having trouble with making ewxport flags work [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: hi dan [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, dan. [11:19] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:19] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... it's Snoopies ZHAO AO, just if that matters [11:19] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: using 0.7.6 and latest Singularity I see an export flag in the viewer but its greyed out... any ideas/ [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: Hi [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I was trying out a touring hot air balloon in 0.7.6PF the other day but it uses impulses for movement and that doesn't seem to work very well. [11:20] Kayaker Magic: I have some questions again about mega regions [11:20] Kayaker Magic: I've found mantis 6596 [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: oh, if you talk about AO always think in viewer AO. thats much betetr [11:20] logger sewell: and Dahlia as she sneeks up behind us :) [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew in bullet or ODE? [11:20] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: when looking through the source code in comparision to viewer code; I came across one difference that the viewer actually allows to send bad_folders in FetchInventoryDescendents2 as a failure response: mantis here 6914 [11:20] Vivian Klees: if you landed in a no script zone then yes the ao/hud won't work [11:20] Kayaker Magic: but apparently it is not included in any release yet? [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Bullet. I don't use ODE any more. [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Custom viewers have their own AO system. Though usually I didn't rely on that since each viewer might have its own [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: This is something LL should have added to the viewer automatically years ago... dunno why they didn't [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ok, ya I have tried doing some tests with big prim vehicles and experiece was also bad [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure we are measuring mass correctly [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: atleast compared to scripts that run in SL [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, it just jerked around a bit and didn't really move anywhere. [11:21] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, and Wolfgang is no longer cloud, I see him fine [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that is not surprising [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't tried it with git master. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: flying vehicles are hit or miss [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: LL was going to add viewer ao but the viewer devs said it was a terrible hack and really the server needed AO functions [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: same problem like we talked a few meeting ago with the test script you tried nebadon. at the end it seems to have worked [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: generally scripts from LL still need major adjustments [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: since the server controls animation anyway [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: if you have some example vehicles or scripts make sure Robert gets a copy [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, the same issues would probably apply if it was still just a ground vehicle. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: or Vegaslon [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: Hi Ogeywon [11:22] Ogeywon Stromfield: hi [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its possible Andrew [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:22] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: remember to the default max physical prim size is 10m [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, yea. I haven't seen Robert in several weeks. I have my fireworks launcher working but there are still issues with it when it first launches effects where I need to talk with Robert. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you need larger physical prims be sure to set that in OpenSim.ini [11:23] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed him to be online a few times but was involved elsewhere [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, the primset is bigger over all but none of the prims are bigger than 10m [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya that is fine [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its singluar prims not linkset size [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Ogeywon is being cloud for a bit too long I think [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, I'm online pretty much every day. Haven't seen him in about 3 weeks. If he has been on it wasn't when I was around. [11:24] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: A few times but not often I saw him [11:24] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: listed as onine [11:24] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: online [11:25] Ogeywon Stromfield: rebake is not working o well [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: as misterblue isn't he [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: think i have seen robert to. but its new year he's maby busy [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yes he is Misterblue [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I finished one of my project so I plan to file all the bug reports I have accumulated before doing the documentation for another of my projects. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: when he is not at work he goes by misterblue [11:25] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: one time was two days ago [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: when he is at work he goes by radams1 [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the only nick I know for him. [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: robert is in usa to ? maby cold problems [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: he is in California [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: probably not [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Andrew why not file them as you go, when you are confident [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: about them [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: nah.. :) [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Andrew, I was busy working on some complex scripts at the time and wanted to get them done. [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: s/Andrew/Freaky/ :) [11:26] Mircea Kitsune can say pretty surely that I've seen cases where assets attached to avatars or from inventory had trouble loading, and would either never load or would take minutes to at best. Pointing out as confirmation, if improvements can be done in this area further [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: am i a cloud btw? [11:26] Mircea Kitsune: From inventory less really, I just think I remembered a case from a while ago [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, I also need to recheck a few of the reports against 0.7.6PF and git master. [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea, and thats on the same grid as where the assets are stored ? not HG ? [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: But there's still cloud avatars that never load, which likely means there are circumstances when the asset server simply jams for one asset or forgets to send it or such [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Ah. That I don't know [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: I only seen it here on OSGrid [11:27] Dahlia Trimble: arielle, yes [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: I didn't wonder if they might be from Hypergrid [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: kk thx Dahlia [11:27] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I meant when you are confident about one so to add that at that time [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Ogeywon could help confirm that. I still see him as a cloud [11:28] Ogeywon Stromfield: he is [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Ogeywon: Are you wearing anything from another grid, via hypergrid? [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: onoy see oge as cloud [11:28] Ogeywon Stromfield: as am I [11:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I encountered a few cases but it is mostly related to asset transfers [11:28] Ogeywon Stromfield: not that i am aware of [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, likely a problem with asset server [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. If not, there's still issues with the asset server at times. When it comes to avatars [11:28] dan banner: probably the visual parameter deal theres a lot of exceptions in the console [11:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but interestingly I had that mostly with OSG accounts on a OSG connected sim [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, Ogeywon is the only cloud I see [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya anyone who teleported from master git region would be a cloud right now [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: possibly [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: Readed a few days ago that with HG there's a hugh change you get broken assets if the orginal grid wipes the whole assets server and restore things from iar and oar [11:29] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: for me yes and specifically came from newest master with Firestorm [11:29] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and it seemed to be viewer dependent as well [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its not gauranteed, in my testing about 10% of the time with Singualrity i got clouded [11:29] Ogeywon Stromfield: my new ISP is 50 down and 5 up [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: I use Kokua x64 on Linux if that matters [11:29] Ogeywon Stromfield: im surprised [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: about about 50-60% of the time with Firestorm i got clouded [11:29] Ogeywon Stromfield: that my inventory has not come in [11:29] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: FS is buggered in a number of ways [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua probably has same success rate as Firestorm [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: People in sl have problems to [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: It's a great viewer :) [11:30] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Firestorm was more common to that issue from the cases I know [11:30] Strachan Ofarrel: What viewers to devs here prefer to use / develop with? [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: Firestorm is slow and big and bloated. I only use it when I have to [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: I use Singularity mostly now [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: FS and singularity or thebest ones to use [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: however i tend to do Machinima with Kokua [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to log in to a grid that wants people to use FS to avoid issues of some other viewer but it was the one viewer I couldn't use to log in to the grid. :) [11:30] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the main problem with firestorm is the outfits logic which takes time for updating [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: but use singularity because FS is already in use [11:30] Kayaker Magic: I use FireStorm because of the script pre-processor [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: I usually use singularity because it's the only one I can build [11:31] Mircea Kitsune: I only use V3 based viewers. That means Firestorm when I have to, and Kokua when that works well [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: FS comes with a bad script that has something to do with a bridge. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is now a v3 viewer [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: incase your wondering [11:31] dan banner: v1 UI tho [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its no longer considered a 1.x viewer [11:31] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: with sing it is best to use the newest alpha [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya it just looks 1.x'ish but its not at all [11:31] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, not a fan of the v1 UI. It was nice back in its day tho [11:31] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: the last stable was crashy [11:31] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Singularity is V3 type as FS and Kokua [11:31] Strachan Ofarrel: Thanks ... I'm thinking I should switch codebase for CtrlAltStudio Viewer [11:32] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: HI Key [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: SIngularity with voice enabled gives my machine problems when I try and move my camera view. [11:32] Key Gruin: hi Arielle, hi all [11:32] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: had done some tests to see the protocol differences the viewers do [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks thinks he has more bug reports to file but for viewer issues. [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Have a seat Dahlia. [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Hi Key [11:32] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact singularity tends to show people as Unknown UserUMTGUN due to precaching [11:32] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: noone else having issues logging into the opensim wiki? [11:33] Dahlia Trimble prefers to stand but ty :) [11:33] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi Key, hi Arielle [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: Anyway, any ideas why Ogeywon is still a cloud? Just wondering if the issue that causes cloud avatars is known [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: Unless he teleported from a GIT sim like Nebadon said. I think I seen this issue for a long while tho [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is he may have teleported in from a region that is running Git Master [11:33] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I ran into one issue that a viewer did not upload rebaked textures correctl [11:34] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: y [11:34] dan banner: mircea: [SCENEGRAPH]: Error in Wright Plaza: System.IndexOutOfRangeException: Array index is out of range. [11:34] Key Gruin: not sure if I can speak for myself, but I was amazed at how fast the scene rezzed here for me and how fast tp's have been [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: Mircea best fix for older cloud issues is the blnak avatar fix [11:34] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and left out one body part [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, usually a cloud is because something failed in the appearance process, which could be many things [11:34] Mircea Kitsune nods [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: often though its slow inventory loading [11:34] dan banner: will probably require a relog to rez [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: yes thats the know index, already be some talk about [11:34] dan banner: ari you're a cloud to me? [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: To me too [11:35] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and as the affected user you will not know it because your viewer has a local copy [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: newest git and FS Dan [11:35] dan banner: then you know [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: but at least i didnt crash coming here [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya for anyone running their own robust services [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: you would be best to avoid updating it to master git right now [11:36] dan banner: the sideways sit issue needs to be addressed so we can put out a new osgrid build [11:36] Key Gruin: Arielle and Ogeywon are clouds to me [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: if you have regions running older git code and have master git robust [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Firestorm crashes on log in [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: we had to revert OSgrid [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Robert is aware, we suspect its something from varregion stuff in git master [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: I not seeing the crashes Nebadon [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: he has pushed some varregion stuff into git master so it can be tested on OSgrid [11:37] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: at the moment I get the avatar data through Wright Plaza sim, so I have to take that data what OSG teleport provides [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: but apparently do have te cloud [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: only stuff in master git for varregion is for robust stuff [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: in FS [11:37] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: no involvement in robust with me [11:37] dan banner: ari we reverted or nobody would be able to use fs [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you still need varregion branch for simulators [11:37] dan banner: if they hit an older sim [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: in other words, stay far away from git master [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: ?ž.* LoL *.ž? [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: on my own grid it isnt a prob Dan [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: only here [11:37] dan banner: with an older sim? [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: yes [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thats a safe bet, dont push git master into anything you need to be farily stable right now [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: come check it out late if you want [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: How is that going to work with final 0.8 ? do peole get problems between older opensims and the betetr new one ? [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yes, unfortunately the cloud issue will probably be around until everyone updates [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think there is anything we can do, however we may be able to push the fix back into 0.7.5-post fixes [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Haven't tried myself. I only bring up my own sims occasionally [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: am I a cloud? [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm, but still some think <0.7.5 is betetr :O [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its already in 0.7.6-post-fixes now [11:39] dan banner: no dahlia [11:39] Vivian Klees: your fine Dahlia [11:39] Key Gruin: not to me Dahlia [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Dahlia: No [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: so anyone who is stuck on 0.7.6 can use post-fixes and the problem will go away [11:39] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i think other testers need to try it out to see if it is a prob exclusive to Osgrid [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but its not in the actual binary release [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and won't be [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: I came here from a region running month-old code [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: ywonArielle still is tho, and so is Oge [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: not sure wicj 0.7.6 i run [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: this region is not updated Dahlia [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: *Ogeywon [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: this regino is also about a month old, little more 11/29 i think [11:39] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         8b3a436: 2013-11-29 02:51:35 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Ogey just got fixed :) [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: yep [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we have been updating and reverting a lot [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: once we are happy with performance a new OSgrid release will come out [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: and you will know its safe on master once again [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: so.. nothing new nebadon :) [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: not yet [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: tbh though, my inventory is not fully loaded either which cou;ld have a bearing on being a cloud [11:40] dan banner: biggest issue right now is the sideway sits [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebado: sorry, distracted atm [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: what are the major issues atm with master? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: no worries Justin [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: Robert has a break in Robust on master [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: with some of the varregion code [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: where if you have master git Robust and Older regions [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and you directy log into old region, Firestorm crashes [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: he is aware, and has the info needed to fix [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: is the varregion supposed to work on master? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but I dont know where he is with that [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle no [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: only Robust [11:41] dan banner: var isnt in master git [11:41] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... speaking of avatars and appearance: Has the dev team thought if they'll also implement server-side baking of avatar appearance? The main grid added that some months ago, so all avatar skins and textures are sent as one [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: simulators still need varregion branch [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: ok [11:42] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Arielle you should have waited for the loading process on your own sim [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: once rober fixes this last bug, you will be able to hopefully hook up varregion simulators to master git robust [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: Worse, viewer debvs need to implement the old code for opensim if its not there. because LL removed it [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: any links to that branch? Have looked for it but cant find [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Varregion [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: everything you need is here [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: couldnt get GitExtensions to clone it [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: oh and Justin, speaking of wiki [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: or even find it [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Var regions sound promising [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: a few people have reported seeing a blue bar on the wiki after logging in [11:43] dan banner: justin: this is one of the problems that we ran into [11:43] dan banner: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6892 [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but so far I am unable to make that happen [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: the link wasnt there [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: clone os then checkout varregion branch. [11:44] dan banner: sits on single prims or root prim in a linkset are sideways [11:44] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i tried Andrew [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Varregion#Branch_in_the_Repository [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: here is the info for getting the code [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: you first have to clone master [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... the branch is just called varregion. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: then change branches [11:44] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i have that [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember git branch creation/checkout command atm. I have often used git gui to create and checkout branches. [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: i use. [11:45] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: git checkout varregion ;) [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: git clone git://opensimulator.org/git/opensim git branch --track varregion origin/varregion git checkout varregion [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, yes but IIRC, you have to create the local branch first. [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, you need to checkout to a local branch [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: make sure once you clone opensim [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: you go into the opensim folder [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: GIT branches and origins can be tricky at first, till you learn the commands or GU [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: then do the branch commands [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you need to be in the root of the project [11:46] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: not necessary since that happens alongside the git checkout [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: yes.. that you always forget :O [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, I made my own git survivors guide as I learned how to do some things via command lines. [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Nice [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks notes that command with --track. [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew i have my own documents to [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact the git always checks out all branches during pull [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: you only select the active one [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: BTW. There's something I wanted to bring up for a while, on a less technical note [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: If there's still time in this meeting [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: sure Mircea [11:48] Key Gruin: is there a Git Guide For Dummies book somewhere, I need a kickstart [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: hi key [11:48] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: TYhere is Key [11:48] Key Gruin: hi Rich [11:48] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i will look for the link after [11:48] Key Gruin: ok ty Arielle [11:49] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: another topic for short note: I added some information to the HGfriends when it failes in mantis 6769 [11:49] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: not that it helped me but then i am a real dummy with Git [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a link for how to use git if you are coming from SVN IIRC [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: I can't help noticing on every sim on every grid, that the Main grid has a lot of higher quality content than Opensim grids (at least OSGrid). I can't say the content here is of low quality, but IMO it's of the quality the main grid had around 2007. I'm wondering if that can be fixed, and help with the dream of making Opensim grid at least a lot more used and popular [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: GIt is rather different in some ways than the previous RCS/CVS/SVN VCS's [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: I have one question about mantis. i have the idea not many checlk mantis reports after some time and see if the are fixt and if close it ? not sure if that happens much. or at least marked as fixt [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Being a free grid, it's harder to ask people to make very high quality stuff, onlike Main grid where there's real money involved [11:50] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: good quality stuff is just hard to find ;) [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea best way would be for people who have created high quality stuff to share it [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Good quality stuff takes longer to make. [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Freaky: Truth be told, it's everywhere on the main grid. But on OSGrid and Opensim it is hard to find [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: put out good oars and iars [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: Arielle, pulling git stuff is not so hard. when you have wrote the right document for yourself [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: It does make me sad to see [11:51] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: some of the higher quality stuff went to other grids over the past year. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea the big difference on main grid is you have to buy most of that stuff [11:51] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: And if you look for scripts a lot of bad scripts, so you go through with a haystack search [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: go visit the freebie junk yards in SL [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: Anyway, I did think of a possible way to fix this problem. But it would take people to organize [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: you will find the quality is much lower than OSgrid [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: I think the idea is worth considering [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: or other grids [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: /mtries toscroll the history and fails [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: there is tons of high quality free mesh content out there [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately not everyone is a good builder [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just dealing with shoes in avatars being given out in a grid. The shoes contained a script that cause high runtime. It was a script, probably written for SL, back in 2004. [11:52] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I have seen a few places already with real good stuff on [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: something from varregion put into master is currentlyc rashing firestiorm? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is a lot of good stuff out there [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: Justin sort of [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: its only if you have Robust running master git [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: i really for soem reason dont get to the building point. its now just waiting for the right 0.8dev version [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: and regions running older code [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: I thought of this: What if we could have a periodic (possible yearly) initiative on the Main grid, in which artists that no longer need to sell and protect their works can use a custom viewer to export and offer their creations via xml / png sets, which could be re-uploaded on OSGrid. Those willing to donate could come to said meeting and send the OSGrid admins xml's + textures + scripts + etc [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Is it only crashing the FS viewer/ [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: Firestorm crashed on log in to old reginos [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how curious [11:53] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: when doing my tests I managed to crash FS a few times maybe I can help on that [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: regions* [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: Would organizing such a thing make sense and be possible? What do you think of the idea? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya, Robert is aware [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: im sure he will figure it out [11:53] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: some other Opensim Grids do that sort of thing Mircea [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: anything else? I hope to start sorting issues soon [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: Nic [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there is a problem with sitting [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i was told you were aware though [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but it seems that sit rotations can still be wrong [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it sounds like that was before melanies stuff thuogh? [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: I was thinking of having a monthly / yearly event on the main grid. With creators of high quality avatars,vehicles, etc. [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, yes, I'm aware - on my list [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it was according to her, however I had not verified it [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: she said it was mantis'd [11:54] Cuteulala Artis: hello all [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ok great thats all I can think of [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: hi cute [11:54] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi cute [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: Dan Banner you have anything? [11:54] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: checkout opensim-creations, kitely, Littlefield [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: so are region crossings, for instance, better? [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: can one cross vehicles now? [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: Many main grid artists that did great stuff 2 - 3 years ago might say "Ok, I stopped selling this either way, here's an nml so you can take it to OSGrid" [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: not yet Justin [11:54] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea, i think with 0.8 final things start to look way betetr for opensim. i expect verhicles etc. work much betetr to then [11:54] dan banner: just the sit issue mainly [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: however you can sit on a cube and push it accross border and that works [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: justin ? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but full on scripted vehicles is not quite right yet [11:55] dan banner: we kind of need that to update plazas and offer a build for the grid [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Richardus: Yeah, but I'm nnot talking about opensim features. Mostly the content on Opensim compared to the LL grid [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I think its physics engine problems [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: not actually melanies code yet [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm sure I've asked before but is there anyone in particular who has been dealing with particle system issues? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: maybe some more there to do still though [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks didn't mean to whisper that just now [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew not that I know of [11:55] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: then it would be resolved by switching to Ode? [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Technically, Opensim is almost (almost) as good and complete as the Main grid. But most content is years behind the main grid in quality sadly [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ok. ty [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia has touched some of the new functions [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but in terms of improving old code, I dont think anyone has really taken ownership of that [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: ARielle. ODE is worse then bullet [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Main grid? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I think opensim is still considerably far behind the ll grid [11:56] dan banner: mircea: try opensim-creations [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: but at some point it becomes 'good enough' for various things [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Main grid = sl righht ? [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Richardus: Yes, the Linden grid [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, that is what I was thinking [11:57] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: The Shrinking Grid, to be honest. [11:57] dan banner: lol [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: IMO, I think such an initiative should be considered. Various people could talk to artists on the main grid, and see who's willing to donate high quality works to Opensim [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I've noticed a number of other minor deficiencies in OS vs. the main grid. Mostly a lot of trivial things like missing date info in dialog boxes. [11:57] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: The Incredible Shrinking Grid... [11:57] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I think when the HG teleports get less prone to failing more people would probably consider opensim [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: hg is an area which it would be great to improve - it's a pity diva hasn't been around [11:58] Cuteulala Artis: i prefer a sim on osgrid directly [11:58] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: And I would hesitate before calling it the "Main Grid." Original Grid would be a better and more accurate term, IMHO. [11:58] Cuteulala Artis: lol [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: she will be soon [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: she is finishing up her book Justin [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: Ig only LL accepted to integrate with Hypergrid. Instead of using the Havoc physcis engine as an excuse to kill off Opensim support... [11:58] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: justin I did detailed stuff on the HGfriends alongside that source code analysis on grid functions [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: if you see HG as the homes of people and big central grid as event and shopping. [11:58] Cuteulala Artis: clumsy with keeping up with data lol [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: I will be meeting up with Diva in a few weeks in Santa Cruz [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: maby soem medium grids for special things like flying [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: tbh, I don't blame them - what we do is arterial edge stuff [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: yes HG can be big thing [11:58] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: HG TP's are not that prone to failure in my experience [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Pathfinder, or mother/father land :) [11:59] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Bullet can be doing as much as Havok can do [11:59] Cuteulala Artis: Honestly i think HG makes alot of grid feel smaller Lol! Because! u cant find there sims on the map to explore and requires a url to find it [11:59] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it is just a matter of integration [11:59] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: mostly it is people not knowing the proper syntax [11:59] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: That is why HG needs a better method of finding regions anyways [11:59] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: HG is the magic sauce. Interconnectivity changes everything. It just needs to work well. [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: It's understandable, because LL makes most money from offering regions and Opensim allows hosting them for free. If they put the idea of an unified virtual world on top of that though, they could have accepted Hypergrid [11:59] Cuteulala Artis: ya i wish HG was able to report its grid better [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, hg is the big change - and the most complex :) [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: Hi cuteulala, give it time and soem fixc oidea comes for that [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Pathfinder, HG can also bring with it issues of permissions relating to objects. [12:00] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: It is one thing I planned to investigate possibilities on anyways [12:00] Cuteulala Artis: plus i tend to lose data to much haha [12:00] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: Diva did some wqork at one point for seeing avi's on an HG region but it got broke [12:00] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: In fact the asset logic on teleports is not as good as it could be [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: My problem and frustration soemtimes and did slow things terrible down. still stuck with train stuff. but hope todo a new round as soon 0.8dev [12:00] Ogeywon Stromfield: hi Cute [12:01] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Andrew, yep, and that same argument was made when the Web first came about. A problem like that is very solvable. [12:01] Cuteulala Artis: Im desperate for working Var [12:01] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:01] dan banner: everyone is [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: pahtfinder: we still need a berners-lee though :) [12:01] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Rich I got into some thing like that due to another script I saw recently [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Pathfinder, sure. Just need people to work out how to do things right and make the needed changes. [12:01] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Justin, dude, I believe that's you! [12:01] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: lol [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: though it's hard to see through to a nice regular protocol atm with all the ad-hocness about [12:02] Mircea Kitsune: Heh... and regarding hypergrid: I always wondered if a hypergrid variant would ever be doable in a viewer. By having the viewer log into multiple grids at one time, but allow the avatar to select which to go on and have an unitied inventory [12:02] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Justin I came across all relevant protocols due to my analysis [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: Freaky, started to think one way. that mkae things already less complex. but this time i go build it on own grid then i know whats going on at both sides [12:02] logger sewell: see everyone next week i need to scoot :) [12:02] Cuteulala Artis: id personaly donate money twards a GUI osgrid setup instead of a CMD window [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: I wish :) I need to get some time off dirty bug squashing and other work to think things through properly [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: More consistency amongst the protocols may also be helpful. [12:02] Mircea Kitsune: That would automatically mean LL + Opensim Hypergrids. Although I'd think LL would be upset if that happened [12:02] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: inventory tied to viewer instead of robust [12:02] Mircea Kitsune: And viewer-side it would be somewhat weird [12:02] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I think the setup can be simplified a lot by letting the sim know the actual URLs for repos on connect [12:03] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: which is another point I did investigation on [12:03] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: Mel and Diva mentioned it is where they want it to go in future [12:03] Mircea Kitsune: Still, a viewer could be customized to login to multiple grids, and unify the inventory and group / friend chats between grids [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, what? You weren't taking time off to think over the holidays? ;) [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah. I know what you mean. Once in a while you have to take a step back and have a hard look at stuff. [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: nah, that was time off to eat christmas pudding and play mindless video games :) [12:03] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Justin, you'll get there. You've got a great team of devs all banging away. Seriously, I'm always excited to just watch how Opensim is evolving and growing. It's a long runway, but it's definitely moving. [12:03] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Mircea the inventory logic currently is switching when you jump into a another grid [12:04] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: so I am actually using my grid for that; whereas you use OSG [12:04] Mircea Kitsune: ah [12:04] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: opensim needs the willingness to forge ahead of S/L instead of always catching up [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I see lots of mostly little issues that I'd like to see fixed. When I have time I will bang away at a few things. [12:04] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: because that is communicated on the teleport as the serviceURLs [12:04] Cuteulala Artis: i need osgrid for dummies [12:04] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: thanks. I think the community is responsible for a lot of innovation [12:04] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Seriously, if I had to pick one thing I loved most about working at LL is that it prompted the development of Opensim. [12:05] Cuteulala Artis: my coaster more inovative then the iphone o.o [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: Arielle, I don't think the user community wants Opensim to forge ahead [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuteulala, having a good development IDE helps. I started using MonoDevelop when looking at the OS source code and it has often helped me to find what I needed. [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... you are a former Linden, Pathfinder? [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: That's very nice [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: Arielle, yes. but with things like lsl its good to stay the same. until the day there are more wiki and devs to make new comamnds. we have ossl commands. but the documentation still can be expanded [12:05] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Pathfinder Linden 2005-2010 :P [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: How did working at LL help with Opensim though? [12:05] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: you might be right Dahlia though there are wishlists out there that sound really cool [12:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: in fact to do a nicely rolling roller coaster on a 0.2 timer is requiring innovative steps to get that done [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: i am a linden now [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: :o [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: ultimately script engine needs major improvement [12:06] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Pathfinder I read that on your blog anyways ;) [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: on my sim lol [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks watches lots of weapons being pointed at the "enemy". ;) [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Awesome. There are a lot of Lindens (or former Lindens) here than I expected [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: Cute? really? [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: im a linden in my osgird sim lol [12:06] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I do not bother about that [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice that someone knows some of what is going on inside LL. [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: heh [12:06] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Mircea, working at LL helped with Opensim simply because that, without SL, there would have been no creation of Opensim. [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: OH. [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew, who's the enemy ? depedns maby on wich dirt you stay :) [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: :P [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: Ah. True in that sense [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah absolutely. opensim can only exist because of ll's work and their open-sourcing of the viewer [12:07] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: precisely [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: well I have an osgrid avatar named "Governor Hippo" ;) [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: Some dont like to hear it, but opensim and sl i need both. the keep things in balance [12:07] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: The open-source step of LL was the initial starting point of opensim from what I noticed [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: also good to find bugs [12:08] Mircea Kitsune: Need both of what? [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: If you make an avatar with god perms (level 200 or up) you become a LL employee in your profile. [12:08] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, I think opensim started before LL went open source [12:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: on your own payroll ;) [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: you cant without opensim and you cant without SL. [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, yeah. I haven't seen a cheque from LL. :) [12:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but I think the actual open source step was allowing better progress on opensim [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: LL is also helping OS based grids by causing so many issues in world that people look for alternatives. [12:09] Ogeywon Stromfield: all i really want is a tax deduction on all the ll i spenty [12:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: before that you would require a lot reversing [12:09] Mircea Kitsune: LL is a paradoxal company sometimes. When you look at some decisions they take as a corporation, you see some of the weirdest and wrongest things. Though when you meet individual Lindens, they all seem like nice and involved people. They're hard both to love and hate, or to not love and hate :) [12:09] Cuteulala Artis: i know one thin osgrid allot faster then sl [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, it's all reverse engineered [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Makes you think some of the top people in LL aren't grid users. [12:10] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what helps opensim grids is the shared review you can actually use [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: hmmm. in what way cute ? [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: Opensim is reverse engineered yet [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: without osgrid i think id quit sl forever lol due to harsh limitations [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: i dotn see uch diufference. as long you dont use sculpts in sl [12:10] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: on server code [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: Linden wanted to release the SL server software at some point, but changed their mind. [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: Cuteulala: Same. I still use the main grid, but I don't trust it [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: Money changed there mind [12:11] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: not really [12:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I have read that being one step when I lost track on going on with that [12:11] Mircea Kitsune: I only use the main grid because it has one thing Opensim doesn't: Users. As in, users logged in at the same time [12:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: The problem with companies is quite commonly they need profit [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: the new plansa for a grid are "high fidility" [12:11] Mircea Kitsune: About 10000 more than OSGrid [12:11] Ogeywon Stromfield: its about over head [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: I wouldn't call that a problem - I think it's a necessary discipline [12:12] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: the viewer was opensourced first because that was much easier to do than opensourcing the server. Opensourcing the server eventually was always in "the plan" back when I was at LL. [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: LL is not public tho so profit doesnt necessarily need to be a primary goal [12:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: It was not meant in that harsh sense of the word [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it' show you look to get that profit which is important [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, the large number of people online at a time, and overall population of a grid is why some people chose to stay in SL. [12:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: only depending on what you consider what is happening [12:12] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: But personnel changes at LL caused priorities to change, and "the plan" just went poof. [12:12] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         8b3a436: 2013-11-29 02:51:35 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [12:12] Mircea Kitsune: On the main grid, you can find something going on (with hundreds of people participating) in any domain / theme at any hour or moment. On Opensim (or OSGrid), the only time I'm aware of when 20 users gather together is at these office hours once a week, that's all. [12:12] Richardus Raymaker: Correct ANdrew [12:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: you need at least money to live on but companies tend to want more [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: pahtfinder: do you thiink it was a feasible plan? Could LL have moved on to another business model? [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: Loves being alone in a quiet sim with no one to bug me but only friends who wont grief me lol [12:13] Dahlia Trimble: path, you mean "M"? [12:13] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Justin, yes. Many of us felt that way. [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: FOr live music events you can see lots of people show up although lots can mean only 10 and up. [12:13] Mircea Kitsune: Andrew: Yeah, it is. That's what I hoped could be changed ever since I discovered Opensim in 2007. At that day I dreamed that today, we'd have nearly half users at the main grid. Yet the online user count rarely goes over 50... [12:13] Mircea Kitsune: **as [12:14] Cuteulala Artis: I know the answer to that one [12:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I think when opensim reaches the point of being considered for the people without technical expertise on the server itself [12:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: then that will change [12:14] Cuteulala Artis: EVERY!!!! friend i brought in number one complaint was (Script Engine sucks) [12:14] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: But, as is true with any business that decides to change a business model, it would have been very tricky to do. It required folks who were willing to take short term risks for long term benefits. And those people, like I said, eventually left. [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: It's a really tough problem to produce a reliable sim for more than some users that doesn't need expert technical knowledge [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: The "if you build it, they will come" thing sounds great but isn't as simple to accomplish in reality [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: yes, it was a real pity [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: I think there 3 problesm for SL uers and opensim. [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: 1. not enough people (when you build it the come) [12:14] Mircea Kitsune: Freaky: I think it is pretty much at that point. At least for people who don't want to host their own regions. Opensim and Main grid work pretty much the same way [12:14] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: So LL was left with "well, this cow is still giving milk, so let's not talk about hard things like trying to raise emus instead" [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: 2. Money [12:15] Richardus Raymaker: 3. perms [12:15] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: You need credibility and repudiation [12:15] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: biggest issues are not technical but social and economic [12:15] Dahlia Trimble: path, or maybe they were encouraged to leave :( [12:15] Richardus Raymaker: Yes arielle [12:15] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Company cultures can change rapidly too. [12:15] Cuteulala Artis: I think if we find a way to secure someones work in other sims then they will come its all about being able to protect ur work yet share it(Id love to be able to give my coaster to everyone if i knew it was protected [12:15] Mircea Kitsune: I used to think the lack of real money is the reason Opensim isn't used. Yet I heard about Opensim grids that use real life money just like Linden's, yet there's still few people online on those too [12:16] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: if you give those people a platform given a similar basis but without the grief the probably change [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of big content creators stay with main grid as the OS ones don't have the populations that might make it worth their time to move their items over. [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: i think things have to be done difffently. You can't have a central money system without central control [12:16] Richardus Raymaker: Cutuulala, your did hit the nail.. [12:16] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: But all this hindsight is not the important thing. The important thing is right here, you all have a chance to control your own destiny and the destiny of some really neat software. [12:16] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: One important thing that HG can provide is sharing costs by the way [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: that is a difficult proposition [12:16] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Grab that and run. :) [12:16] Mircea Kitsune: Personally, I think it could help if Opensim could have some initiative in which anyone could easily bring their full-perm inventory content to Opensim. Full perm only though, so it won't seem like copybotting [12:16] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: its also social [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: even LL cant secure peoples content [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: but here people are free to try innovative things, like Kiltely with their marketplace [12:17] Richardus Raymaker: But secure is like its secure in sl :O [12:17] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: and i dont mean chat social [12:17] Sentra Delight: When a novice like me can download, install and bring up regions much the same as Sim-on-a-Stick is packaged, then you will have the ultimate virtual world I think... Just my humble opinion [12:17] Cuteulala Artis: Security is the number 1 flaw in opensim [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: security is a big issue with hg [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: thats an internet issue not a OpenSim issue [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:17] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: lot of s/l is still with undertones of the sexual in some way\ [12:17] Dahlia Trimble: security is a big issue in SL too [12:17] Richardus Raymaker: strong point with opensim, lower costs you have more. and with var's for soem things opensim would be betetr like flying [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: anything that renders on your screen can be copied [12:17] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Justin you are right on that [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: there is no way around that [12:18] Mircea Kitsune: Cuteula: Security will always be a problem in Opensim, sadly. Primarily because anyone can rez an object they bought on their sim, edit the sim database to remove permissions (and make the object full-perm), then take that back to inventory. [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Having access to viewer code means that a lot of (current) security measures can be bypassed by someone who can modify the viewer code. [12:18] Mircea Kitsune: Unless of course encrypted databases can be invented [12:18] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i see more security issues in grids then HG [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: every big builder in SL i know has had their content ripped and resold on the SL marketplace [12:18] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: It is not just about encryption it also needs the protocol security features as such [12:18] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, that's really not nice [12:18] Richardus Raymaker: security is hard thing to fix. then you need some keys that check the perisisons with the main grid where the object is found and .. but. [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: many of the really big builders in SL that I know personally, spend like 75% of their time trying to get content removed [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: it's complicated. You could compare it with people ripping pictures off the web - but I think with 3D programmatic objects it might be another order of complexity [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: personally, i hope that's wrong [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: its really not Justin [12:19] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: The music and movie industry hasn't collapsed with the ability to make DRM-free copies of content. Virtual worlds won't, either. Folks just need to find new business models and add value in ways that cannot be achieved with copying (like Apple with iTunes, Netflix, etc.) [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately [12:19] Mircea Kitsune: I'm rarely a builder that sells anything. But even if I do, I don't care as much if it gets re-uploaded. Wouldn't like it either [12:19] dan banner: ripping 3d models is easy [12:19] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: ( am I still a cloud)? [12:19] dan banner: from most anywhere [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, db's can be encrypted but you have over head of decrypting everything so it can be used. The fact you can decrypt the db to use it means that you don't really gain anything from the encryption. [12:19] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Justin, yes, the problem is more complex, definitely. [12:19] Mircea Kitsune: Actually, it doesn't need to, because I only sell full-perm things (or at least most of the time). How funny is that :) [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: anything that is visible on your screen, can be copied [12:20] Mircea Kitsune: yeah [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: i want a neb doll then [12:20] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: anything that is in the viewer cache too [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: however that doesnt mean you cant be succesful [12:20] Dahlia Trimble: with an open source viewer, security is virtually impossible except maybe for scripts [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: its just part of doing business [12:20] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: nobody is a cloud to me [12:21] Mircea Kitsune: me neither, I see veryone fine [12:21] Dev Random: You stopped being a cloud a few minutes ago [12:21] Dahlia Trimble: I see Arielle now [12:21] Mircea Kitsune: Same [12:21] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: ok cause i switched to Singularity [12:21] Cuteulala Artis: Arielle doll [12:21] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:21] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000 is using Singularity [12:21] Dahlia Trimble: nice hat :) [12:21] Richardus Raymaker: Its not the problem of giveing things for free. its the prpoblem that some people make money from your stuff [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I have recently made a gadget for sale which I think will be the first one that will be of wide interest to other people and may make me a few $. [12:22] Richardus Raymaker: and thats what happens in sl to [12:22] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: safe fro falling objects ;) [12:22] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Arielle Singularity should be somewhat faster on appearance updates [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Most stuff I have built so far doesn't sell much. [12:22] Key Gruin: only one cloud I see is Fred Appleby [12:22] Cuteulala Artis: omg i found Arielle on the internet! http://summerlandkinsmen.com/gfx/under_construction_gif.png :PPPP [12:22] Dahlia Trimble: ?ž.* LoL *.ž? [12:22] Mircea Kitsune: Avatars here BTW are another pointer about the content matter: They do look nice, and everyone in this room has a pretty appearance. But we do all have rather simple avatars, similar to those you'd see around 2008 or earlier. [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see any clouds any more. [12:23] Mircea Kitsune: None of the big high-res sparkling appearances most people on main grid have [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: so is git messed or Firestorm? [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: master^ [12:23] Richardus Raymaker: maby FS messed [12:23] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, I still a cloud avatar: Sentra [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: There are people making photorealistic skins but they cost money. You rarely will find someone giving away those types of skins. [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea thats mostly because making those things is very difficult [12:24] Mircea Kitsune: True [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: the only reason SL is so popular is because people are under the notion they can get rich [12:24] Mircea Kitsune: Sad part is that the difficult stuff stays on the Main grid but rarely reaches Opensim [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: honestly thats why i got involved initially [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, a few have been able to make some decent money. [12:24] Richardus Raymaker: well, nebadon knows what i say now. TRU textures is selling for opensim worlds to now. not cheap. but its a sign [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i saw a thing about Anshe Chung on CNN becoming a millionaire in SL [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: But very few. [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: and i was like i want some of that pie [12:24] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: and not everyone wears everything in full view [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: getting rich is certainly not a bad motivation :) [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: honestly if it wasnt for that thing on CNN im not sure i would have ever tried SL [12:25] Richardus Raymaker: Justin, thats why we get closed opensim grids :( [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it has to be a necessary part of any successful system, or at the very least making a living [12:25] Mircea Kitsune: Honestly, I'm hoping I can make a living off SL myself. Enough to pay bills and such. [12:25] Mircea Kitsune: Still need to look into it [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: you know how I made money in SL [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, it encourages you to make products of high quality to stand out from the crowd if you want to really have a chance of making money. [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: and in OpenSim [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: it was not by my creations [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: it was by building whole sims for people [12:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: TV stations a few years back were all hyping SL as an income source [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: using other peoples content [12:26] Mircea Kitsune: No job IRL and father's pissed, so maybe I can discover the wonders of living from SL :) [12:26] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Mircea, you should visit Vbinnia's Emporium here on OSGrid. Just look for the region Steam. She's creating lots of high quality stuff, including mesh stuff. [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: so many people in SL want a really nice layed out regino [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: The people behind the hippo vendors have done a pretty good job of making decent money from the vendors. [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: but dont have the skills to pull it off [12:26] Mircea Kitsune: Thanks Pathfinder, shall keep that in mind [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: so i would take people out shopping and then build their region for them [12:26] Richardus Raymaker: Freaky, the where right. big income from Linden Lab [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: basically the samething I do no using opensim [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: i made pretty good money doing this [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: cool [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: without ever really creating much of my own stuff to sell [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Mircea, the other thing now is with many commercial grids based on OS you can sell the same products in more than one place. [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i would use other peoples creations to build really nice clubs, and familly zones [12:27] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: heh, cute Cute ;) [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i did lots of land scaping [12:27] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah [12:27] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Neb, you were a Sherpa! :) [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: waterfalls, and mountainy areas [12:27] Mircea Kitsune: I should probably visit the commercial grids too. OSGrid is still my favorite place of course [12:27] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: And an Interior Decorator, from the sounds of it. :) [12:27] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, only 1 little problem. its almost impossible to hav ea rewgion in sl [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: if you ever saw my pink princess castle [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: that was from SL [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i build for someones kids in their famillys region [12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently registered in 10 different grids. [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i made like 15,000L$ from that [12:27] Mircea Kitsune: Heh. I still get scared when I hear how much it costs to have a region on the main gird [12:27] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: oh the one Jaelyn redid for me [12:27] Mircea Kitsune: What was it... 400 US$ a month? [12:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the main problem with OS based commercial grids is that they have competing currency systems [12:28] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: i still have that up on my grid [12:28] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Freaky, good point. [12:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to pop off now to eat. Hope you all have a good coming year, folks [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: I was making about 50,000L$ a month [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: just hopping around building regions for people [12:28] Mircea Kitsune: Later Justin [12:28] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: yes i wished Kitely would have gone Virwox [12:29] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what is that in US$ neb? [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice, nebadon. I can make stuff but I don't always have the creative side to know what to make that would something really interesting. [12:29] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, holy cow. Amazing. [12:29] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.dyndns.org:9015: Tc Justin [12:29] dan banner: bye justin