Chat log from the meeting on 2020-10-27

[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:04] Bill Blight: Greetings Andrew

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I hear we are getting to that time of year when clocks start changing in various parts of the world.

[11:05] Bill Blight: across the pond already changed

[11:05] Bill Blight: I think the US changes this weekend

[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yea

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Sh*t. I call it "Daylight Wastings Time"

[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If we were not on winter time it would not be daylight till after 9.30 in the morning here

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not up that early so whichever clock settings give more light late in the day suits me.

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we could be on winter time all year. In the summer the sun is only down 3 hours if at all

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I have some clocks that need manual changes, others that change automatically, some that change according to the old date, some to the new date (the US changed it recently). If I change one of the late ones they fall back another hour a few weeks later. So for a month or so I'll have no idea what time it is.

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I understand it takes 19 hours to set the clocks in Buckingham palace

[11:08] Bill Blight: only clocks I trust are my PC and my Cell Phone,

[11:08] Bill Blight: they have not let me down yet

[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I don't have cell reception out here, so I'm down to my PC.

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Arielle

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: My old PDA allowed me to tell it when the clocks change so I was able to set it to the new schedule.

[11:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Hi Loading :)

[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Hi Arielle!

[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: am I loading?

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle

[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: HI Kay

[11:10] Bill Blight: I have an old clock that still uses the old "Atomic Clock Radio Signal"

[11:10] Kayaker Magic: How can you know if you are "loading" to someone else?

[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: turns on bubbles

[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have one too

[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually not that old

[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a Casio

[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: reminds me I have to move it so it picks up the signal overnight

[11:11] Bill Blight: yeah mine is kind of old, have to smack it once in a while, still uses the old RED crystal display

[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Next week some of us are going to be an hour early, and others an hour late to this meeting.

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: /hi)

[11:11] Bill Blight: should get a new one

[11:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: were we supposed to dress up?

[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Costumes are no required, but it is almost Halloween!

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I forgot. This is the last meeting before Halloween.

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: there are still some emissons of time references in short wave

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: or long wave

[11:13] Bill Blight: over here, it is still maintained by National Institute of Standards and Technology

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Halloween is a total non even in this country

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: event*

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: but all those suffer from rf noise, but worse phase changes

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Yup. CHU in Canada on shortwave. WWV/WWVH in the use on shortwave. WWVB in the US on longwave.

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: due atmosfer changes,  sun acivity etc etc

[11:14] Kayaker Magic: Halloween in the USA is sort of like Marti Gras in Latin countries. An excuse to party!

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: best time reference no is GPS, galileo or the russian thing

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might turn into a superspreader this year

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: ...now..

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: that allows ns precision with proper equipment

[11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: meh they dont hug for halloween

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: each gps sat has its own small atomic clock even

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: cesium ?

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Is this region supposed to look like high noon on Mercury? Is that EEP? Can I get normal lighting back?

[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ctrl+shift+y

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at quarter past. About everyone who will be attending this meeting are already here. Might as well start.

[11:16] Bill Blight: try using an eep viewer

[11:17] Kayaker Magic: I have FS 6.3.9 isn't that the EEP one?

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: no

[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 6.4

[11:17] Bill Blight: might as well get on board, because at some point they will drop windlight

[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: let FS fix its eep issues as well as LL

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: 6.4.5  .. 6.4.11..

[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: linden water seems to hit the fps pretty good

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you shoudl add beta after that

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have not released an eep viewer

[11:19] Bill Blight: considering Opensimulator is still "alpha" people should not be scared of betas

[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, care to summarize your changes this week. I see a change related to HG and some connector changes.

[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: FS team only allows a few to have their betas

[11:19] Bill Blight: there is a link to it on the table behind me

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: current master is broken for standalone HG :(

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: working on it

[11:20] Bill Blight: has been there for months

[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thought it was you own version

[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: your^

[11:20] Bill Blight: well see what thinking gets you

[11:21] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i get mine from fs up till now

[11:21] Bill Blight: that is a link to the FS page

[11:21] Bill Blight: geeze

[11:21] Bill Blight: paranoid much

[11:21] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but my desktop is down so on the laptop which hasnt been updated

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: other code.. accepted a patch to fix undo/redo position changes on attachments

[11:22] Bill Blight: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_eep_beta_downloads ?

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: fixed llGetLinkKey to support LINK_* constants

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: did remove some memory only asset caches, that are bad with garbage collector

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: rest, some reorganization of region assets connectors

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: seem working ok except for standalones...

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: so im remaking them all again

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: there will be some changes on in files

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: well think that's it abotu code changes

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: What happens if you call llGetLinkKey(LINK_ALL_OTHERS) and there is more than one?

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: get nothing

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: rtfm

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I've wondered now and then about why Standalone seems to be such a special case. I would have expected it to just be the same as regular regions but with less connector things.

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: only this and root are allowed

[11:26] Bill Blight: "Caveats

link needs to be either an actual link number or a link constants that equate to a single prim, such as LINK_ROOT and LINK_THIS.

LINK_SET, LINK_ALL_CHILDREN and LINK_ALL_OTHERS will not work.

All Issues ~ Search JIRA for related Bugs"

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: standalones have shortcuts

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: to connect directly to own db etc

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: that all over the code

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: their own grid is not standard

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and that on all services..

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: on assets we have basicle 4 default cases

[11:28] Bill Blight: Seems to me that standalones are showing how much of a "hack" they have been, considering what it is based on was never meant to run without support infrastructure ... Just my .02 cents worth ..

[11:28] Bill Blight: Meaning showing how much of a pain to make them work with modern code ..

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well they could had got a true attached robust with is own tcp

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: but that whould be a waste

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: so "shortcuts"

[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: reading early dev opensim e-mails, it was actually grids that were the hack as the original intention was standalones

[11:30] Bill Blight: I'm speaking from code/viewer perspective not the dev perspective

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: yeach guess original code was basic standalone

[11:30] Bill Blight: SL viewers/code which opensim was reverse engineered from was never meant to be "standalone"

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: and later several versions of grid where tested

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.

[11:31] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Everyone

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: last survivers that i remember where current Robust and simian grid

[11:31] Bill Blight: Howdy Selby

[11:31] Kayaker Magic: What is the progress on your viewer Shelby?

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: i removed simian recently

[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh how come?

[11:32] Bill Blight: Simian is dead, has been for years

[11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: No new developments,Kayaker

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well all a confusing mess as you see on the ini files

[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wouldnt that have been better for  a ds sort of  setup?

[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: cds

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I was thinking that if Standalone mode could use connectors, etc. to do things locally it would eliminate some of the special handling it seems to have. Would have fewer issues where something works in grid mode but not in Standalone mode.

[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well thought there was consideration for eventually going in that direction

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: full http connectors would be a waste

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember Simian being in use when I first got wind of OpenSim quite a few years ago.

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: would made code more coerent and simpler

[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i tried it and some others did'

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: think the ppl that used simian was the intel group, long gone

[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there was talk of going in that direction but justin decided against it  figuring it woud be too hard for most

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MOSES

[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: that was before moses

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: moses also used simian?

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ok

[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: hybrid

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: simian like

[11:36] Kayaker Magic: So the Halcyon branch still uses simian?

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ask halcyon devs

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least partly is my understanding

[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes a hybrid i thought

[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but that is also where the hypergrid went kaput i believe

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: btw fs 6.4.11 has some code to do 1024px bakes

[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: simian wasnt capable of HG

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: some ppl said they work..

[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Beq mentioned thst

[11:37] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Right. Arielle

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: for me on the simple tests i made it looked as 512px :)

[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: she said it would be heavy

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: but i don't have 1024px things to test

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: well thats viewer side only thing

[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: do we have server side baking or not?

[11:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: getting conflicting answers

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: opensim will just see larger data to move around

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: we only have viewer side baking

[11:39] Kayaker Magic: I tried some BoM capable mesh bodies by Ada on this FS 6.3.9 and they worked pretty good.

[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the option is there for server side just not configured?

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: no option

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: no code

[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but we did have it a while back?

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: no opensim NEVER had server side baking gezz

[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thought there was a config option for it in the ini files at one time

[11:41] Bill Blight: server side baked storage, baking is still viewer side I do believe

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: xbakes is grid wide storage only

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: to reduce need for slow viewer rebakes on tps etc

[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what does that mean, how is it different?

[11:43] Ulric Thandor is Offline

[11:43] Bill Blight: server side baking means that the actual baked texture is created by the server, not by the viewer, what we have is creation by the viewer

[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok thx Bill

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: baking is a heavy operation.. you do notice the time it takes on viewers with GPU help

[11:46] Bill Blight: would bring many "older" servers and PC's to their knees

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: SL has a cluster of machines to do server side

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and increased it when moved to 1024px bakes

[11:47] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so i was playing with an old server i have on one of my machines and noticed my system avi with clothes and hair is heavier in complexity then  my typical mesh outfit

[11:48] Kayaker Magic: ?system avi heavier than mesh? IMPOSSIBLE!

[11:48] Bill Blight: depends on mesh attachments and if the complexity is actually getting calculated right

[11:48] Bill Blight: I made a "ring" to wear that had over a million complexity, just to prove a point a while back .. was just a plain silver band

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: some old hair is very heavy

[11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: typical prim hairs are pretty heavy especilly if flexi

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: tons and tons of prims

[11:49] Bill Blight: yeah flexi hair is a nightmare

[11:49] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but it used to be the norm

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: nahh bf that just system hais

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: see how pretty gavin.Hird hair is..

[11:50] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: one of my faves is 200 complexity by itself

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: even very light

[11:50] Bill Blight: I remember when even in SL 10 avies per region caused major lag, after flexi hair became "popular"

[11:51] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: just curious because of the need to throttle  because well MESH!

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: yeah system hair is the light thing.. prims hair is like mesh

[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I remember prim shoes causing so much local lag I could not use them

[11:51] Bill Blight: prims are mesh

[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I recently discovered how region crossings in OS are much better than in SL. I was riding on the local tram system in an SL region and everytime it got to a region crossing I fell off the tram.

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: grrr prims ARE NOT mesh, on this context

[11:51] Bill Blight: just actual mesh can get overly complex

[11:52] Bill Blight: where prims are simple mesh

[11:52] Bill Blight: oh

[11:52] Bill Blight: ok

[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the my GPU oly had 64MB so probalby had something to do with it

[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the idea of mesh it was said because the users machine had to do the rendering, not the server

[11:52] Bill Blight: but in general as far as the viewer renders them, they are the same as mesh

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: in this context a mesh is a PRIM that has a mesh to replace its space

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: as a scultp is a prim that has a map to replace its shape

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: My hair has 113 prims in it.

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: both "mesh" and sculpts include a base prim

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: again.. in the context we are talking..

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ie as object types..

[11:54] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so is the  world heavier today then it was  7-10 years ago?

[11:54] Bill Blight: by far

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: well BOM may had help to reduce that just a bit

[11:54] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and how does the mesh  load compare to the texture load?

[11:55] Bill Blight: still mostly viewer side

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: potatos and beens

[11:55] Bill Blight: big difference between server lag and viewer lag, most of what we are talking about is viewer side

[11:55] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i lag less today then i did 5 years ago

[11:56] Bill Blight: viewer is better, pc's are better, servers are better

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: test same pc and viewer of 5yrs ago

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: gezz

[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok i will

[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: easy enough

[11:57] Bill Blight: 5 year old viewer does not even have many the features of current viewers

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: only BOM did show up to reduce lag a bit

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: but then EEP did arrive..

[11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 5 year old viewer for FS is the 4.** series

[11:58] Bill Blight: Only problem I have been able to really see with EEP, as far as lag, is if  you you have a lot of parcels all with EEP

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: it was a retoric sugestion :p

[11:58] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ^^

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: all that changed..

[11:58] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: try turning off the water bill to see if there is a difference

[11:58] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ctrl+shift+alt+7

[11:59] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: see if you gain fps

[11:59] Bill Blight: I only saw it with many parcels, and don't normally see it, but it did occur

[11:59] Bill Blight: of course you will see an FS gain, viewer has to work less

[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in s/l its significant difference

[12:00] Bill Blight: prime example of viewer vs server lag, that is all viewer, server not even involved

[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 20-30 fps

[12:00] Bill Blight: I get about 60fps her all the time anyway

[12:00] Bill Blight: here

[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and without water o?

[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: on

[12:00] Bill Blight: chaged by 10

[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: nod

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: hmm fs 11 seems to have ll fixes for water

[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i get 74  right now with the view i have but on a pre eep atm

[12:01] Bill Blight: I need to bail, real life calls

[12:02] Bill Blight: see you all next week

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bill. tc. See you next week.

[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: waves

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tc

[12:02] Bill Blight is Offline

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Same place, maybe different time? :)

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: Make sure you show up an hour early!

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: [12:01] (You): never noticed water lag

[12:02] (You): guess has to do with some reflections

[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: hour early?

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Turning off water does give me a 5 FPS boost.

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: fs 11 seems to have some ll fixes for that

[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: should be the same time for us in north america

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't look right without the water.

[12:03] Kayaker Magic: Daylite wasting time starts next week in the USA

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: ofc any thing you turn off increases fps.. gezz

[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: is looking forward to it

[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: too dark in the mornings

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: we changed last sunday

[12:04] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Andrew FS is not happy with the fps drop with eep because of the water

[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... My info says my clocks change on last sunday in October. If that's the case it would have happened last weekend.

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Oz Linden told them it is basically thier issue to fix as they don't see the same in the SL viewer

[12:04] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh

[12:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i better test that

[12:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i do see a difference even at 2900 meters in the sky

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well ll did change code bc the water issue

[12:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh?

[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, they did but FS sees it after taking that code

[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least that is what they said

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: dunno

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so Oz said it is not his problem unless they can repo it on the SL viewer

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: ofc

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: not ll job to fix forks :)

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right

[12:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i was thinking that Opensim needs some new features to stay ahead of s/l

[12:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i was noticing they have npc's on the marketplace now

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: animesh are not npc

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: as we have npc

[12:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so i was thinking it would be cool to have that Mirror that whirly fizzle created code for

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: viewer side only

[12:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but s/l rejected

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: and wasn't whiley

[12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh thought it was

[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it was dead slow

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: don't remember who was.. seen it also

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well now gpus have more help for that

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: even so slow

[12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: slower than eep?

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: gammes are very careful where they do apply it

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: more like sleep

[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: any other good feature ideas?

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: not many that can be done server side only

[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm - how about TP to a real location?

[12:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: haha

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: already done gavin.... its alt-f4

[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: or similar :)

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)

[12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well Beq might be interested in putting code in viewer side

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: beq is very busy rl

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: only considers minor things for opensim

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: like the 1024px if it works

[12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i was trying to convince the black dragon  dev to put in a grid manager again

[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there's been a bit of discussion on the opensource-dev list about the Mac viewer and OpenGL 3.2 the last few days

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: well other than dayturn and fs no other viewer dev talks

[12:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not sing either?

[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL has pretty much painted themselves into a corner with the ARM Macs

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: no not singu

[12:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh how come  Gavin?

[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewers will not run on those machines

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: it told liru about changes due to eep... total ignore

[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless a completey from the ground up rewrite

[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what about a mobile viewer for ios?

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from the grouns up rewrite

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: chat with rye is to listen how crap opensim is and how much he money he makes in one year

[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they are working on that though only text atm

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is peanuts in comparison

[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: besides nobody has seen or tested it

[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well i did a couple months ago and  it really was nothing

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: promiseware

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: did ll even look to those tables? err macs?

[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have to put that test app on my mothers tablet to get the new version

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: ie tables that look like desktops :p

[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tables?

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: ( im teasing u :p )

[12:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: tablets i think he meant

[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you mean the Microsoft big ass table?

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: err yes tablets also :)

[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: iPads

[12:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well they have the beginnings of it

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: not sure ll did look to those apple "tablets"

[12:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they did

[12:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: are

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: guess worse issue is metal

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the new Macs and iPads and iPhones will all have the same generation of processors and gpus

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which all will only run metal

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: rest is normal c++ pains on other cpu

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for rendering

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the metal librareis only works with Objective-C or Swift

[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not c++ at all

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: metal is a big code diference

[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not being able to use c++ is almost bigger

[12:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i cant see why s/l would bother as i doubt s/l will be allowed  for macs anyway with all the adult content

[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as all the code must be rewritten

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: guess ll will just drop those macs

[12:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: maybe thats why they are focusing on a text viewer only

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: ( ll and a ton of other sotware houses )

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with Xcode 12 you write one set of code and compile for both Mac, iPad and iOS

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: deploy the same application to all

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they reach a very large market

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with one app

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: let apple had their tables limited and controled market :p

[12:21] dj phil is Offline

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: have..

[12:21] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: macs are a big market?

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: damm tablets.. tablets.. not tables :)

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tthey have about 2 billion devices

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that the the app can be deployed to

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: phones are not table.. tablets

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same processors

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same gpus

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: who cares..

[12:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but sounds like metal wont be backward compatible

[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: iPhone bencharks as fast as the Macbook Pro with i7 Intel

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: mobile cpus pretending to be desktop ones.. only mac uses buy that

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: like a model tehy sel l with a i5

[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we shall see Ubit ;-)

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: no heatsink at all.. the i5 is always in thermal throttle

[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well my android phone is pretty quick

[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the  6 GB of ram makes a difference

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: and if the user pushes more, it also does power thottle

[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and thats just a mid level phone

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: so the thing is very thing and batery lasts

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: pure cheating.. a i5 running as a arm

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ofc the new arm will possible outperform THAT crippled i5

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: pure marketing bs

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ripe off

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: even

[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ripe

[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the market is ripe for a viewer on mobile

[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes

[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Lumiya is getting old

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: what do you call on selling a i5 totally in thermal and power throttling

[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: We are coming up on half past. ANy other last minute topics for today?

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: way a i5 doing the work a atom would with similar performance..

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: gezz

[12:27] Ubit Umarov: why..

[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: smaller form factor

[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: small is cute

[12:27] Ubit Umarov: just bc the name 'i5' sells

[12:27] Ubit Umarov: well at least with the arm they can be honest on that

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: well details :)

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: and about opensim?

[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: lumiya support needs a bit of tweaking

[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it too run on arm

[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today we can call this one done and dusted. I need to be leaving soon anyway.

[12:29] Ada Radius is Online

[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That will do it for today. Let's hope the clocks changing this coming weekend don't mess things up too much.

[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok

[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: see ya next week'

[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you next week. Have a safe Halloween (for those who have that event coming up).