Chat log from the meeting on 2009-06-23

Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I think the people to really talk to about this are Nebadon and Charles. They run this meeting nowadays

Starky Rubble: There's also the question of resources

Master Dubrovna: I think people at LBSA and here overloaded things this time

Penny Lane: They were running it ... until it crashed. :P Vicious circle

Monk Zymurgy: hi OtakuMegane

Carissa Raynier: hi everyone

Starky Rubble: all the plazzs are on one of two servers AFIK

Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, if this is your only opportunity to talk to them then that is a little problematic :) You could also try taking the temperature on this topic on the opensim-dev list

Carissa Raynier is Online

OtakuMegane Desu: Hey

Orion Hax: might a suggest for large meetings to use a sim with less of a prim/script load

Penny Lane: JCC: I'll talk to CK. He probably doesn't appreciate being cut off in mid sentence every week.

Starky Rubble: prolly not lol

Penny Lane: Proper stress tests would be cool, btw

Starky Rubble: I like to attend for the social aspect but mostly for the background info on current dev thinking

Penny Lane: Actually looking at the metrics as the load rises, plotting the graphs etc

Justin Clark-Casey: intel have done some work on this kind of thing in a controlled manner

Penny Lane: What you don't measure you don't really know.

Starky Rubble: there are graphs in the corner over there

Penny Lane: JCC: you mean John?

Justin Clark-Casey: no, dslake

Penny Lane: Ta

Kitto Flora: Right Penny. A stress test that does not gather data and have a path to dealing with problems encountered is of little use.

Penny Lane: And I'm up for social gathering and chewing the rag too. ;-) But those things sometimes conflict :-)

Starky Rubble: sure

Richardus Raymaker: hi starky

Kitto Flora asks his usual question: Anyone here working on server ode physics/vehicles? (Yes I kow 'teravus is').

Starky Rubble: Hey Richardus

Dahlia Trimble: not lately

Justin Clark-Casey: I believe somebody from IBM made a small change recently

Justin Clark-Casey: but yeah, nothing apart from that

Penny Lane waves at Dahlia :-)

Starky Rubble: hee - I always say Kitto Flora is...

Dahlia Trimble waves back :)

WhiteStar Magic: I believe that Snowcrash has a coupleof ideas in regards to using MRM and Vehicle Movements

WhiteStar Magic: we were discussing that along with a few other items yesterday

Kitto Flora: Where, ShiteStar?

Kitto Flora: White...

OtakuMegane Desu: Lawl

WhiteStar Magic: in one of teh IRC's

Brent Seidel: :-O

WhiteStar Magic: snow is making up a few MRM based courses for people

Kitto Flora: Pse expand MRM

Starky Rubble: for the C# cvlasses?

WhiteStar Magic: Adam MRM Mini Region MOdule

Wordfromthe Wise: i will try that

WhiteStar Magic: http://www.adamfrisby.com/blog/tag/mrm/

WhiteStar Magic: save that till later

Starky Rubble: Hi Static!

Wordfromthe Wise: i just run the official 9841

Dahlia Trimble: anyone try the snowglobe viewer with opensim yet?

WhiteStar Magic: Not yet... still playing with Meerkat

paulie Flomar: :)

WhiteStar Magic: I was gonna install snowglobe this week and play with it

Dahlia Trimble: I use it with SL but I've been using emerald with opensim lately

Static Sprocket: Ello Starky

paulie Flomar: Happeh SL6B!

Penny Lane: I'm on Snowglobe on SL currently.

tx Oh: what so new with snowglobe?

Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: emerald is another viewer flavour?

Penny Lane: I've found a few crash problems, but nothing major

Dahlia Trimble: emerald has some nice building and radar features

tx Oh: i mean why should i try snowglobe?

Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.5 (Dev) .9867 (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur)

Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True

Dahlia Trimble: snowglobe seems to have a higher FPS and loads textures faster but bump maps dont work

Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: seems to be invisible to Google :) Is that a Linden codename or just the name of somebody else's viewer branch?

Penny Lane: Nothing particularly new with Snowglobe, other than the map textures coming straight from S3 over HTTP. But it's supposedly a more open LL viewer, in the sense that there are a select number of residents with commit access to the LL SVN for it.

tx Oh: i would like to see bumpmap applied by user textures

Dahlia Trimble: snowglobe is that open source viewer that Philip is sponsoring

Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia; I meant emerald rather than snowglobe

WhiteStar Magic: based on LL code ?

Justin Clark-Casey: Penny: any sense of how that is going? Co-operation working well there?

Dahlia Trimble: oh lemme try to find the emerald link

Brent Seidel: Look for GreenLife Emerald Viewer

Justin Clark-Casey: got it. thanks brent, dahlia

Penny Lane: Only two residents currently have commit access. Yeah, it's just the LL viewer with more patches and a less onerous acceptance path .... allegedly

Justin Clark-Casey: only two? Oh, I thought it was more than that

Penny Lane: JCC: cooperation is going very well atm, but it's early days. So far the LL people who vet patches haven't said "No"

Richardus Raymaker is Online

Penny Lane: They will start rejecting patches of course. The big question is when ... at the slightest hint of divergence from LL's plans? Or will it be more flexible? Who knows

tx Oh: i like to know when the next hippo will be there. as far as i know the obscure 4096 tp limit is eliminated

Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's the issue that interests me, esp. if people try to start to generalize things more for non Linden servers such as OpenSim

Dahlia Trimble: heh at one time I had some stepping store regions set up on osgrid so I could tp between my islands and WP

Dahlia Trimble: *stone

WhiteStar Magic: well... are we Linden Server or not ? Why remain anchored in teh concrete galoshes of LL code ?

Penny Lane: There's a good likelihood that OGP stuff will go into Snowglobe early. That's not particularly interesting though, since OGP is so threadbare currently.

paulie Flomar: HG ftw!

Dahlia Trimble: heh we need grider in snowglobe :)

Monk Zymurgy: paulie : +1

paulie Flomar: Anyone playuing with Meerkat viewer?

Penny Lane: White: we're not anchored to SL at all. The only problem is that we don't really have our own viewer (despite many future candidates), plus the fact that the peeps who use Opensim actually want compatibility with SL.

Dahlia Trimble: tried it

Maik Galaxy: yes, it a nice stable viewer..

Penny Lane: Meerkat's interesting, but for me on Linux, very flakey.

Justin Clark-Casey: don't underestimate the amount of weight that existing SL code has

Justin Clark-Casey: and its mindshare

tx Oh: i get dizzy with all this viewer names droped in

Justin Clark-Casey: and the fact that they have paid developers :)

Dahlia Trimble: we have Idealist but the momentum seems to be lacking

Maik Galaxy: the gemini-viewer is nice for builders

tx Oh: i made me an own viewer, just for machinema

Penny Lane: Would be great if there were a concerted push for our own viewer. Idealist certainly sounds likea great candidate.

tx Oh: it's not linux compatible nor mac

Dahlia Trimble: it runs on linux

Dahlia Trimble: should run on a mac

Penny Lane: tx meant his own viewer :-)

tx Oh: sure? with wine?

Brent Seidel: That's the thing. Any "OpenSim" viewer would have to support Window, Linux, and MacOS.

Dahlia Trimble: idealist should run natively

Maik Galaxy: own viewer based on meerkat

tx Oh: my viewer is linux only :-)

Dahlia Trimble: well not natively, it would require mono and possibley X

Penny Lane: HGehe

Penny Lane: libc probably helps too

Richardus Raymaker: wine is not nice. small font. dont like to run viewer under emulator or something like that

tx Oh: oh got, more mono.

Richardus Raymaker: besides that, wine is not stable with SL viewer.

Richardus Raymaker: noo, not again mono ! :P

Dahlia Trimble <3 mono

Penny Lane: Wine isn't stable with anything, really. Even when it works with something, you upgrade either Wine or the app and it's broken again.

tx Oh: i think the hippo is cool. why not support that in a way?

Richardus Raymaker: right penny. but iwould not make it worser

Dahlia Trimble: hippo is cool but it's derived from the LL codebase

Penny Lane: Wine will never be stable, simply because it's chasing Microsoft's tail lights, and that's an impossible tastk.

tx Oh: so what? ll viewer is gpl'ed

Dahlia Trimble: :)

Richardus Raymaker: which form ? bsd ? gnu ?

Justin Clark-Casey: I gather the issue is the complexity of the LL codebase and the difficulty in adapting it

Penny Lane: Some people have a religious problem with GPL. Not engineering, religion.

Justin Clark-Casey: well, and license too, arguably

tx Oh: i love gpl, i love debian

Dahlia Trimble: I think the GPL issue is the desire to use opensim commercially rather than religious

Static Sprocket: I suspect some developers also have issues with the archetecture of the LL viewers, and would prefer to start from scratch

Richardus Raymaker: i loe linux

Penny Lane: Yeah, that's true, lot of arch problems there.

Justin Clark-Casey: static: developerse always love to start from scratch. But a lot of man years have gone into the LL veiewer

WhiteStar Magic: /??

Richardus Raymaker: how long is opensim now ? 2 years ?

tx Oh: thats what i mean. it's hard to stomp something of the ground

Justin Clark-Casey: two and a bit

Dahlia Trimble: well Idealist can display collada content alongside prims and sculpties in the same scene, How long would it take the LL viewer to be modified to do that?

Static Sprocket: Based on previous projects I've worked on, sometimes it takes even more man hours to fully understand an existing project's code, and then adapt it to your goals, then it would take to start from scratch.

WhiteStar Magic: will LL give out the new code to SL 2 when it arrives ?

Richardus Raymaker: right, and see how hhard it is to get opensim good.

Static Sprocket: The man hours arguement is valid however if your goals are minor changes, or changes spread out over a long period of time

Justin Clark-Casey: Static: that's true. Though often the reimplementers end up just repeating the mistakes of the original :)

Richardus Raymaker: SL2 ? i missed something

tx Oh: it's not only the renderer which makes the viewer

Penny Lane: It's daft to throw good code away, and the detailed prim torture bits of the LL viewer for example are good, and very difficult to re-implement. Unfortunately, Opensim has got inself into the stupid position of disallowing its devs to examine and learn from the LL code, and everyone suffers from it.

Orion Hax: the problem to me is its not a technical problem its a social problem, the biggest reason to use LL codebase to be compatible to SL so things can move back and forth, its like asking someone to move from there house to this new place but they cant bring anything with, most people wont do it.

Static Sprocket: Indeed, not argueing for one vs the other -- although, in my personal case, I won't be touching the LL code, because I simply don't want to deal with C++ {and I suspect that's true of some others too}

Dahlia Trimble: I've already implemented tortured prims :)

Justin Clark-Casey: static: oh nor am I - I just like to argue ;)

Penny Lane: lol

Justin Clark-Casey: er, although that's a contradiction

Justin Clark-Casey: yeah C++ - quick I guess but you pay for that in more bgus

Justin Clark-Casey: bugs

Dahlia Trimble: I dont mind c++ but I'm kinda rusty

Starky Rubble: On a fifferent note, Do we have any idea how far through the refactoring project we currently are?

tx Oh: i touch every code.. but i prefer simple k&r c

Static Sprocket: Well, when I only have 20 hours to donate, I prefer not to spend 5 of them oil'ing up old skills ;-)

Penny Lane: You mean Diva/Melanie's latest huge changes?

Justin Clark-Casey: starky: I would say only Melanie and Diva have a good take on that

Nas Messing: Hi everyone

Starky Rubble: yes, I figgered as much

Dahlia Trimble: k&r <3

Static Sprocket: I'd say about 6% complete, but das jus me :-P

Starky Rubble: 6? or 60?

Nas Messing: Hi all

Static Sprocket: six

Justin Clark-Casey: hello Nas

Starky Rubble: Yipes!

Penny Lane: I don't recall them giving any estimates. It's be done when it's ready, there is no other way ... unless we want to help :-)

Penny Lane: It'll*

Static Sprocket: Then again thats 6% of what I personally think needs to be touched, I'm not sure what Diva and Mel's specific goals are

Static Sprocket: seems like each week, they add more as they complete others

Penny Lane: It's an ambitious goal, that connector system

Justin Clark-Casey: static: there's enough refactoring work in OpenSIm to power a city for 1000s of years

Penny Lane: Hehe

Nas Messing: doea anyone know Nebadon Izumi

Starky Rubble: heh

Dahlia Trimble: sounds familiar

Robert Graf: lol

Penny Lane: Never heard of him, right peeps? ;-)

Carissa Raynier is Offline

WhiteStar Magic: he is in SecondLife right now at the SL6B event

Richardus Raymaker: who's he :))

Starky Rubble: nope... a cipher

Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon Izumi - is he like Father Christmas?

Richardus Raymaker: yes. i go see if i can move there

Nas Messing: i see

Nas Messing: tnx

Starky Rubble: The Easter Egg Bunny

Justin Clark-Casey: Nas: Seriously, he usually is here

Justin Clark-Casey: Nas: Look for him in #osgrid on freenode

Justin Clark-Casey: that's irc

Static Sprocket: He's one of the admin's for OSGrid

Philippe Debevec: Hi all

Starky Rubble: He sould be holding the floor

Justin Clark-Casey: but instead the floor held him

Starky Rubble: slurp

Justin Clark-Casey: actually, he is currently in Second Life as SL6B manning the OpenSimulator booth

Jamenai Luik: Hi

Penny Lane: You'll normally find Neb here at 1005 on Tuesdays. By 1010 we've crashed though, and he's gone :P

Dahlia Trimble: lol

OtakuMegane Desu: And trying not to move there. Otherwise he crashes apparently lol.

Richardus Raymaker: region full.

Nas Messing: yes he is on freenode

Nas Messing: tnx

Carissa Raynier is Online

Justin Clark-Casey: np

Starky Rubble: Why Nas... do you have a problem?

Nas Messing: no i just love this speakers

Starky Rubble: heh

Penny Lane: lol

Nas Messing: maybe he will give me some

Nas Messing: hihi

Starky Rubble: He will

Starky Rubble: go look around Zaius Plaza

WhiteStar Magic: theyh are free to copy

Starky Rubble: most of his stuff is copyable

Nas Messing: okey tnx

Starky Rubble: These are copyable too for that matter

Penny Lane: Separate from Diva's area, anyone know what the state of Cable Beach is?

Nas Messing: tnx

Dahlia Trimble: ask jhurliman

Penny Lane: Apparently he gave a talk, but I missed it

Dahlia Trimble: he hangs out on IRC

Justin Clark-Casey: penny: the metaverse U talk?

Penny Lane: |Yep

Penny Lane: I'll google, there's prolly a video

Justin Clark-Casey: penny: yep, there is a youtube video of a login demo

Penny Lane: Cool!

Justin Clark-Casey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePwvlDZRNh4&feature=channel

Penny Lane: Thanks JCC

Justin Clark-Casey: penny: from the sounds of it on the cable beach mailing list, he's currently writing documentation too

Static Sprocket: what!? Documentation!!! pft

Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha. Shocking, aint it?

Brent Seidel: <3 documentation

Penny Lane: He'll get disowned by the Legions of FOSS!

Dahlia Trimble: ewwwww documentation :(

Penny Lane: Cable Beach is running in OSgrid, someone mentioned. Is that true?

Justin Clark-Casey: I believe so - though for some reason they are transitioning back to something more like the vanilla servers bundled in OpenSim

Dahlia Trimble: some of it may be, ask Adam Frisby

Justin Clark-Casey: don't know the exact details myself though

Orion Hax: documentations makes great kindling

Dahlia Trimble: Adam has hacked up the asset server for osgrid quite a bit

Penny Lane: LOL. Opensim isn't a project, it's a flock of developers. Nobody really knows where the flock is flying, nor what the goals is .... everyone just flies! ;-)))))

Penny Lane: Seems to work :P

Starky Rubble: See you all later, have fun everyone

Justin Clark-Casey: penny: very true. Works after a fashion :)

Penny Lane: Cya Starky :-)

Richardus Raymaker: bye starky

Dahlia Trimble: laterz Starky :)

WhiteStar Magic: have a good one Starky

Justin Clark-Casey: bye Starky

Dahlia Trimble: I should go to and do my daily rl stuff.. bye all :)

Carissa Raynier is Online

Penny Lane: Bye Dahlia, tc :-)

Justin Clark-Casey: bye Dahl

Brent Seidel: bye Dahilia

Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia

tx Oh: hmm

Justin Clark-Casey: well, I should be off too. Nice to chat, take care people

tx Oh: ahoi

Brent Seidel: bye JCC

WhiteStar Magic: Take Care Jcc

Monk Zymurgy: cya justin

Penny Lane: Infinity said today that she's likely to put OpenID into the OGP spec, despite not liking it, just to provide options. I hope that works out, since Opensim has both types of OpenID in

Penny Lane: Cya JCC

Carissa Raynier is Online

Penny Lane: Anyone here on Hypergrid?

WhiteStar Magic: yes

tx Oh: whaf do u mean?

Penny Lane: I've never found a working one, so would like to have a look :-)

tx Oh: a hg region?

Monk Zymurgy: you will have to go out of WP..no HG in this simulator

WhiteStar Magic: There is a Teleportal for you

Carissa Raynier is Offline

Penny Lane accepted your inventory offer.

Penny Lane accepted your inventory offer.

Carissa Raynier is Online

Penny Lane: Thanks WhiteStar!

WhiteStar Magic: and a fairly up to date but not entirely accurate locations card to put in it

Monk Zymurgy: tx..is your region HG enabled?

WhiteStar Magic: none of teh Plaza's are HG enbaled right now

tx Oh: sure, your too

Carissa Raynier is Offline

tx Oh: i guess i leave

Penny Lane: Any idea why they're not?

Monk Zymurgy: i switched it off..while trying to fix the asset problems

WhiteStar Magic: troubleshooting issues

tx Oh: ahoi

Carissa Raynier is Online

WhiteStar Magic: assets server now has new IP address and routing a bit different and seems to have solved soem issues

Monk Zymurgy: i will re-enable it later..HG is great

Carissa Raynier is Offline

Monk Zymurgy: yeah..my region is much improved..i can get back to LSL scripting

Penny Lane: I tend to be pushing interop at LL on a daily basis, so I love what's been done with HG. It's so miles ahead of LL thinking.

Carissa Raynier is Online

Monk Zymurgy: yeah..the concept of taking your appearance makes better sense to me

WhiteStar Magic: Divan, Melanie and I chatted about HG and HG 2

Penny Lane: HG2 is HG+perms?

WhiteStar Magic: there is some new stuff coming very soon to further enhance / improve HG

WhiteStar Magic: yes and better hgTP

Monk Zymurgy: HG seems to have perms now

WhiteStar Magic: They are incorporating my suggested osGetSimulatorStatus idea into the process

Penny Lane: I hope the Plazas regain HG soon, as it's a showcase feature.

Monk Zymurgy: you have to have full perms on objects to pass items from one grid to another

Orion Hax: asset security is going to be an issue from here on out

Monk Zymurgy: i think maintaining original perms/creator is most important

WhiteStar Magic: That is a part of the fix

Monk Zymurgy: i am not sure if HG keeps creator details intact

Monk Zymurgy nods

Monk Zymurgy: cool

WhiteStar Magic: to reatin teh orifginal creator ID in the item

WhiteStar Magic: right now it loses it outside of home grid

Monk Zymurgy nods

Monk Zymurgy: it seemed a bit borked

WhiteStar Magic: that also causes reolution issues

Penny Lane: Not really. Look at the web. Do you see many things secured? Less than 0.1%. The web would fall apart if it weren't full visible. And the way I see it, LL's model of access restrictions for normal objects won't work in the metaverse, because it'll cause widescale breakage.

WhiteStar Magic: stucjk with loading......

Monk Zymurgy: just keeping a set of flags..showing who was original maker and there copy intent..seems cool to me

OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

WhiteStar Magic: but right now it is losing that info

Penny Lane: So although currently there is huge preoccupation with perms because of the SL precedent, I don't think that's going to scale to the metaverse. At all. Nobody will be interested in clothes that don't travel with them when they world hop.

Monk Zymurgy: of course ppl will strip this..but they are a fraudsters

WhiteStar Magic: we all want our stuff

Monk Zymurgy: i think overcoming fear is the biggest hurdle..rather than the tech

OtakuMegane Desu: Obviously.

OtakuMegane Desu: All in all the tech shouldn't be terribly difficult.

Penny Lane: I'm not talking about fraudsters. I'm talking about Joe Blogs who travels between worlds and doesn't like losing his pants. Or Annie Blogs. Or her daughters.

Orion Hax: im not saying everything has to be locked down but resonable mesures

OtakuMegane Desu: It's getting the people onboard

WhiteStar Magic: Creator ID, Inistial Perms etc....

WhiteStar Magic: *Initial

Monk Zymurgy: SL creator seem afraid of what will happen to thier items after leaving SL...

Monk Zymurgy: but it will be no different to publishing items within SL

WhiteStar Magic: if someone wants to rip it, they will ... there are dozens of ways to get around ANY security on ANY system

Monk Zymurgy: sure

Penny Lane: There are no such "reasonable measures" on the web, yet it works. Only very special items are locked down, and that's how I think it'll work when the metaverse explodes.

OtakuMegane Desu: If nothing else, it'd be nice if we could have a creator flag. One thing I dislike currently is even with full perm items you can export from SL, it can't retain the original creator.

Richardus Raymaker: SL creators want good permissions and some DMCA / protection. that what i know for now

Monk Zymurgy: yep..flags are a cool feature

Penny Lane: Sure, SL creators want that. But SL creators are on drugs and completely out to lunch.

Monk Zymurgy: and then perms can be maintainedif people handle the goods corecctly

WhiteStar Magic: LOL POenny

WhiteStar Magic: AGREED !

OtakuMegane Desu: Being able to retain the creator alone might loosen up a few on SL.

WhiteStar Magic: Too Much Pixel Crack

Monk Zymurgy: :)

Richardus Raymaker: yes. and how bad it sounds. i think LL need to make extra option. so creators can set it full perm but not transferable outside SL with Second Inventory

OtakuMegane Desu: I don't mind people sharing my stuff around but it is nice if I';m at least still listed as the original maker.

Richardus Raymaker: then you fix that problem to. if its not set you can expect its ok to use

Monk Zymurgy: they spoke of this extra perm flag over a year ago

Monk Zymurgy: nothing comes

WhiteStar Magic: it's old news actually, going back quite some time

Monk Zymurgy: yeah

OtakuMegane Desu: Well, given SL seems to have backed away from the inter-grid ideas, that's not surprising.

WhiteStar Magic: SL wants to remain closed

WhiteStar Magic: and they do not really want to share

Monk Zymurgy: i blame prokofy neva ;-)

OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

WhiteStar Magic: they want to sell SL to corporates for Big Bucks

OtakuMegane Desu: Or rather the technology behind it.

WhiteStar Magic: That is what I meant

Penny Lane: Oh yeah, maintaining creator and owner information is great, and the vast majority of honest people will respect it. But actually physically preventing distribution is a lost cause. DRM can't work for obvious reasons, and Joe Blogs won;t buy another pair of pants from a creator once he's experienced pants loss on travel. So I think the future of the metaverse is exactly like that of the web --- 99.9% free to access.

OtakuMegane Desu: The grid itself is a giant lab full of guinea pigs.

OtakuMegane Desu: And, at times, seems to hold about as much value to LL. :/

Monk Zymurgy: aye..verry little point for DRM

Penny Lane: Those guinea pigs have unfortunately created a mindset among themselves in which everything is restricted. It won't work.

WhiteStar Magic: really, we need better integration with teh viewer or at minimum an HGurl like SLurl

OtakuMegane Desu: Nope

Monk Zymurgy: but SL/OpenSim things are reasonable hard to get at already

WhiteStar Magic: UsingOpenID / LiveID might solve some other issues

Richardus Raymaker: DRM. bad word :P gives so many problems for simple things

OtakuMegane Desu: DRM and limitatioins will keep the honest people honest, but they weren't the problem to begin with.

WhiteStar Magic: Monk... I have tools that can rip anything if I so choose

WhiteStar Magic: Others can too

WhiteStar Magic: just depends on how techie and determined you are

Monk Zymurgy: yeah..but not everyone has the skill/time/inclination

OtakuMegane Desu: I don't know of any DRM or encryption scheme that hasn't been broken eventually.

Penny Lane: You don't design for the commercial pirates, that just gets you into an arms race which you wil never win.

Richardus Raymaker: but legal tools like SI can do it to... at least it sound legal. but yes the name get wiped

Carissa Raynier is Offline

WhiteStar Magic: only safe & secure system is one that is Not Turned on or plugged in

Penny Lane: Yep

OtakuMegane Desu: True

Carissa Raynier is Online

WhiteStar Magic: People freaked cause Meerkat can backup your objects

Monk Zymurgy: sure..but if a good multi-grid id could be incorporated SI will adhere to it

WhiteStar Magic: I have scripts that will do that

WhiteStar Magic: SI will do that

WhiteStar Magic: Many things will do that

OtakuMegane Desu: So can SI and copybot

OtakuMegane Desu: Nothing new

WhiteStar Magic: so why the hell can't my Viewer have a simple Backup ?

Penny Lane: Not seen anyone freak at that. If anything everyones dead glad that the FOSS crowd pulled their fingers out finally, instead of forcing everyone to pay for SI.

Monk Zymurgy: yes..a 'save as' button for your work would be good

WhiteStar Magic: Screw SI

Richardus Raymaker: i know its difficuklt. and its in a fog. but protect things is almost useless. but give them free away sometimes to

WhiteStar Magic: sorry for the ladies here

WhiteStar Magic: but they are a PITA

Orion Hax: the fear i think is not that stuff gets copyed, i think the fear is you build something and set it for sale on one grid only to find it for sale on 3 other grids at half the price by someone thats not you

OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

WhiteStar Magic: agreed Orion

Monk Zymurgy: this will happen i guess

Penny Lane: SI are leaches, simple as that. Libomv did all the hard work.

OtakuMegane Desu: Ultimately it comes down to money for many.

OtakuMegane Desu: A lot probably don't care if their work spreads as long as they still get paid.

WhiteStar Magic: SLmyInventory is teh base they used to do it

WhiteStar Magic: and guess what, that works and works well too

Richardus Raymaker: i need to say some money to pay server here would be nice. but get money in sl is more a big dream

WhiteStar Magic: and it is FREE

Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.5 (Dev) .9867 (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur)

Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True

Carissa Raynier is Online

Monk Zymurgy: really .. people should encourage some more groups to come to OpenSim, there are many social groups in SL..and also link to already existing forums, that dont yet utilise 3d space

Richardus Raymaker: some say clear only for ....

Richardus Raymaker: i have pick in profile

Richardus Raymaker: i mean some say, only for sl.

Penny Lane: Yeah, making money in SL is a bit like making money from iPhone apps or making money as a musician on signing to a label. In all cases it's a dellusion, because for 99.9% of cases, you pay more in costs than you ever actually earn.

Orion Hax: one thought i have is with the original creator embeded into an item is to have mabey a profile page where there shops are listed and if you see it somewhere else it dosent pass the sniff test

WhiteStar Magic: well... for peopel to come to OS ... we need stability

WhiteStar Magic: ease of use

Penny Lane: Monk: people will come when it's easy to being stuff across. Starting from scratch is painful. And of course when there's stability.

Monk Zymurgy nods

Penny Lane: Hehe, exactly

WhiteStar Magic: we need to have an environment where they have something to do

Orion Hax: SL is going to become less and less inclinde to let stuff leave there network

Monk Zymurgy: maybe at some point freeze feature in favour of work towards stability..but, we are still in infancy

OtakuMegane Desu: And more importanly can do it in. Wihtout crashing.

WhiteStar Magic: Someone is developing a MMORPG to go ontop of OpenSim

OtakuMegane Desu: Or losing gravity or something.

Monk Zymurgy: WhiteStar..that is the kind of thing we need imo

WhiteStar Magic: yes

WhiteStar Magic: we do

WhiteStar Magic: but there are underlying issues

WhiteStar Magic: for one thing

Monk Zymurgy: i think standalone works better for this type of project..and thats where HG comes into its own

WhiteStar Magic: Just something I have been digging into on teh side

OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

OtakuMegane Desu: HG is going to play a crucial role in the future

WhiteStar Magic: is how to change the environment, sky, water, terrains and have teh Server push it instead of it relying on teh viewer

Penny Lane: LL have no option but to let stuff leave their network now. The reason is that they own xstreet now, and they get a commission for every sale of SI on xstreet. As a result, they can't claim that transferring items off SL is against the ToS when they are earning money from the massive sale of a tool that is used for that.

WhiteStar Magic: Imagine a Sci-Fi Sim with Weird Planetary views, and red waters and more

OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Some more control server-side for environment might be nice.

Monk Zymurgy: maybe LL will incorporate windlight setting into the estate settings

WhiteStar Magic: but we shoudl really consider moving Physics to teh viewer and not have teh server do it

Monk Zymurgy: might be a bit early to build it into OS, if we will be using lindens viewer

Penny Lane: "You can't only transfer items off SL to open grids if you use the tool that gives us a commision" is not going to stand up in court.

Penny Lane: can*

WhiteStar Magic: The server shoudl just be info transfer not function calculation and math

OtakuMegane Desu: WhiteStar: There's one problem though.

WhiteStar Magic: but LL code can;t do it

OtakuMegane Desu: Coordinating the information for physics calculation isn't a tiny bit of data

Richardus Raymaker: monkyz, that makes it much beter for many servers. and also makes the memory load lower i hope

WhiteStar Magic: Every real Game System does it on Client

WhiteStar Magic: SL does it on server

Brent Seidel: So, what if my client and your client come up with different physics solutions?

Orion Hax: but that also keeps the client footprint down as well when its on the server

Monk Zymurgy nods..at the expense of accurate scenes..each client may have a different view of the scene

WhiteStar Magic: Picture running an MRM on your server and it is doing the vehickles and executing the physicfs... no region bouandaries if all regions are on same server

Penny Lane: WhiteStar: devolve physics computations to the viewer, yes, just as a way to harness client power. But the region has to be in ultimate charge, since a sim represents a single physical simulation.

Monk Zymurgy: or thats how i saw it in online games

paulie Flomar: It would have to be some version of "physics at home" (like folding at home) where clients can help crunch physics data and send ti to the server. The server would have final say.

OtakuMegane Desu: Most game systems just have to coordinate the location of objects. This would be closer to playing say Street Fighter online. The latency and bandwidth needed for coordinating so much information at high speeds could mkae it horrible.

paulie Flomar: yeah.

WhiteStar Magic: and it's good now ?

Penny Lane: Can't have one client decide there's been a collision with another, when that other says otherwise. The sim has to be authoritative in that

WhiteStar Magic: There has to be a server control module yes

WhiteStar Magic: and 2 way traffic

WhiteStar Magic: coordinator

OtakuMegane Desu: No, but at present levels distributing the full physics systemn would be even worse.

Orion Hax: it would be a disaster

paulie Flomar: this video (of dirt racing) is kewl. :)

OtakuMegane Desu: There may be some parts of the physics calculations that could be offloaded to clients. But most is still going to have to be on the server.

Penny Lane: Not all a disaster. Only some aspects of physics have high realtime requirements.

WhiteStar Magic: agreed

WhiteStar Magic: but there is better ways to split the load and response

OtakuMegane Desu: True

WhiteStar Magic: and take some of the stuff off teh server

Orion Hax: i think a better idea would be to make use of a server side GFX card

OtakuMegane Desu: Other things like working on asset distribution would help for server load too.

WhiteStar Magic: but we come back to being dependent on teh LL Viewer base "for now"

OtakuMegane Desu: Everything goes through the region then to the client right now, correct?

WhiteStar Magic: yep

WhiteStar Magic: pretty much

OtakuMegane Desu: See, that's...silly when you think about it.

WhiteStar Magic: it's a choike point

OtakuMegane Desu: Why not download assets direct from grid to client and the regions simply tells the client where things go?

Penny Lane: Yep, it's gotta be done. SL's sims are not scalable because they don't attempt any parallelism or devolving computations, and that's how LL wants it, because they sell more sims. But Opensim doesn't want to go there --- we need scalable sim technology.

paulie Flomar: client P2P? :)

WhiteStar Magic: agredd 125% Penny

WhiteStar Magic: There are good working P2P models now

WhiteStar Magic: even Solaris can kick butt and do more

WhiteStar Magic: and it is P2P

WhiteStar Magic: but it has major limits we don;t

Penny Lane: Is anyone running Opensim on OpenSolaris?

OtakuMegane Desu: Example: You have a box with a texture. The region tell the client the box's parameters and the UUID of the texture and that's that. The client then does the rest of the work downloading things from the gird's asset server.

Penny Lane: Heh, I don't actually know if Mono runs on OpenSolaris

OtakuMegane Desu: grid*

Penny Lane: Otaku: yeah, that's the Cable Beach model

WhiteStar Magic: http://www.solipsis.org/

paulie Flomar: even LL is moving to textures over HTTP, probably from various sources...

WhiteStar Magic: is what I meant ,.... no solaris

Penny Lane: I know Solipsis, Jesrad told us about it on MMOX

Richardus Raymaker: how long can the keep things save if the start already to download textures frome verywhere

WhiteStar Magic: Worlds and several other platdforms pull textures from teh web

WhiteStar Magic: wow Major Chat Lag

OtakuMegane Desu: I think you have it right for why LL designed things the way they did, Penny. And possibly some degree of laziness just like originally storing everything as blobs in the database.

Penny Lane: Richardus: keeping things safe and scaling the metaverse aren't on the same game plan :P

Penny Lane: Is Wright about to take a dive?

Orion Hax: most likely

WhiteStar Magic: wasn't it about a year, yr & a half ao the opic of stuffing a lot of assets on HTTP servers and setting keys for access to peopel started ?

Richardus Raymaker: ilooks like

OtakuMegane Desu: I wonder...if you took the region out of the constant stream of asset data, how many avatars might you be able to support, then?

OtakuMegane Desu: Proibably

Penny Lane: Otaku: certainly a lot more!

WhiteStar Magic: likely a lot mnore

WhiteStar Magic: NZ is testing an idea with his collectiosn of regions by splitting out the MySql DBS

Orion Hax: my thought would be to use amazon cloud as a service and people pay for however much storage they use

Penny Lane: Why the poor little non-scalable sim CPU is dealing with asset downloads, running scripts, and vicinity chat and IM is anybody's guess. Designer on drugs? ;-)

Penny Lane: Or LL just wants to sell more sims ...

Orion Hax: or both

Penny Lane: Heh

WhiteStar Magic: on cheap, lame hardware that doesn;t work

OtakuMegane Desu: Lag letting up a bit?

Penny Lane: Yeah, we'll probably be meeting up in LBSA shortly

OtakuMegane Desu: Until we manage to lag it into obblivion too. Then it's on to Zaius! Hahaha

WhiteStar Magic: I think... Honestly, splitting teh MySql System to another Server on it;'s own, allowing access to OpenSim Servers via a backbone Ethernt would certainly improve the capability

Richardus Raymaker: -

Richardus Raymaker: if LL want to sell more sims, then simple solution is to drop the price and tier with 50%

OtakuMegane Desu: I'm thinking the core structure of asset delivery and region coordination is going to have to change eventually. A lot.

Richardus Raymaker: and think more to customers

Penny Lane: A sim crawl. It's like a pub crawl where you drink every pub dry, but in this case you consume all the sim resources until they crash, and head for the next one :P

WhiteStar Magic: Have you looked at Land for Sale in SL lately ?

Orion Hax: back to physics can we have a set of server side GFX cards process the massive amount of calculations instead of trying to divy it up

OtakuMegane Desu: Not gonna be easy though

Richardus Raymaker: must be posisble. not sure if works for linux. i know for windows its possible.

nurbsPlane9: DynamicTextureModule: Error preparing image using URL http://grid.bubblecloud.org/~osoperator/osgrid_central_osgrid.jpg

OtakuMegane Desu: Orion: That WOULD be immensely helpful. Especially since a graphics card on a remote server would usually have nothing else to do.

OtakuMegane Desu: It's certainly possible. But there's not been large enough interest till more recently.

Orion Hax: the reason i ask is nvidias new toy the tesla computational card

Orion Hax: some 960 stream processors

OtakuMegane Desu: Nice

WhiteStar Magic: but the data still has to be pushed down the wire to the client to run it there

OtakuMegane Desu: If you could utilize a graphic card for physics though, that'd give vast amounts of headroom compared to what we have now

Richardus Raymaker: test

Penny Lane: Instead of buying a hot graphics card for the sim, buy a PS3. Those SPUs are extremely fast, and really wiped the floor on Folding@Home with all other clients. Physics calculation would be ideally suited.

OtakuMegane Desu: Spend a couple hundred to stick a 4850 in a server rather than a couple thousand buying a second one to handle the CPU loads.

Richardus Raymaker: dont tell me 4-20Mbit down is not enough ?

Monk Zymurgy: ps3 runs linux .. would be an interesting project

Richardus Raymaker: upload. uhmm. opensim at home is anyway not so good

OtakuMegane Desu: You need to assume about 1mbps per avatar to be safe.

Penny Lane: Monk: just the physics, not Opensim --- not enough memory for Mono on PS3

Orion Hax: that was my thought is its not any one process hoseing the system its a 1000 little ones

WhiteStar Magic: the code is getting less and less performant

OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

Monk Zymurgy: ah..has anyone tried to run a client on ps3..i want to try

OtakuMegane Desu: Tat's something we need to keep an eye on. Opensim development has become freature-creeping lately rather than optimizing what we have.

Monk Zymurgy nods

Penny Lane: Not enough memory, nor is there access to the GPU on PS3

Monk Zymurgy: aww

WhiteStar Magic: I've been noticing it and so have manyothersthat things are slowing down and getting fatter

Monk Zymurgy: maybe i will not try then

OtakuMegane Desu: It actually seems LESS robust than it was. Used to be we were pushing 30+ avatars on this meeting but now it's having trouble in the 20s again

WhiteStar Magic: there ae issues on this and LBSA regions

OtakuMegane Desu: The problem with consoles is they actually tend to be very skimpy on RAM.

Richardus Raymaker: and thats the cheapest part.

Richardus Raymaker: whats in a console this days ? 512MB ? 2 GB ?

Monk Zymurgy: not sure richardus..i just had a little fun setting up yellow dog linux on a friends ps3

Monk Zymurgy: good meeting..but i must run..take care and see you all around :)

WhiteStar Magic: see ya Monkz

Brent Seidel: Bye monk

Richardus Raymaker: bye monks

WhiteStar Magic: gonna head out to

WhiteStar Magic: have a good one everuyone

Brent Seidel: Bye WhiteStar