Chat log from the meeting on 2014-02-18

 [11:02] Vivian Klees: over there if it's not mesh it's old school [11:02] Lani Global: it seems that Sci Fi is quite a popular theme for OpenSim. [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks is online. [11:03] stiofain nbmcmedia: hi folks [11:03] Lani Global: there are many sci fi grids. also, many regions in OSGrid that are devoted to sci fi. [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi stiof [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:03] Mircea Kitsune: Hi Justin [11:03] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: Mircea, I have not noticed that issue, but then I do not use a lot of attachments [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:03] dan banner: hey justin [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:04] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. I do, and noticed it when teleporting to my sim from another. Now I teleported from a sandbox sim here to Wright Plaza, and attathments were forgotten, but added when re-logging [11:04] Lani Global: if anyone has images for it, they can upload to osgrid gallery and point to it at http://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5066&sid=0c527446ae77292a5acea1f20f4bf330 [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: nice avatars [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: mine is not finsihed. with textureing. also because io always lost textures [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: are they freebies? [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea, that happens some times, could be a difference in versions, could be network issues, hard to say [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: ok [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: anything in particular holding up another osgrid release atm? [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Latency is a big problem here on OSgrid [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: well for me its time to make one, not sure what Dan thinks [11:07] Mircea Kitsune: I'm working on a city really, which will be slightly futuristic, so a little scifi [11:07] dan banner: i can do it but it wont have Xbakes [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I want to know if the stuff Melanie added fixes appearance issues [11:07] Mircea Kitsune: But it will probaby take months to even do much [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I need to update robust too [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: which is a bit complicated [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't worry about that [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I meant the xbakes. [11:07] dan banner: until we work in the robust changes [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: Since my plan is to make it very detailed. Such as ALL buildings having an interior... no boxes textured with fake windows [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya I updated my regions [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: and they work fine without the Robust update [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: why is updating robust complex? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: so we do not really need to wait I dont think [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: well because I dont know exactly which robust console will run the xbake stuff [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: or what I need to do to get it into its own console [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i just havent had the time yet to talk to melanie more about it [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, I wouldn't worry about enabling it for now unless you want to [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: right [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: everything has to continue to work without that stuff enabled [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: from what I can tell we dont have to do it to use newer versions of opensim [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: my regions seemed fine [11:09] dan banner: okay so i'll just leave the xbake changes disabled in the ini [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: as soon as I can I will look into that [11:09] dan banner: thanks [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just saying this because I may well get some more time to work on master soon, and it would be nice to know if some things are still an issue or not [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: so I can prioritize what I work on [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ok no problem [11:10] dan banner: ya i'll do a new build today justin [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: when do you think you can get a new version up dan? [11:10] Lani Global: is it just me, or does it seem that 0.8.0 has more memory leak? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: great thanks man [11:10] dan banner: np [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I have not noticed that Lani [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks dan [11:10] Dahlia Trimble is online. [11:10] dan banner: ya plazas dont seem to use any more memory than usual [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but there are a lot of factors that can influence things like memory leaks [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: i guess some scipt stuff [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: could be a bad script or something [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:11] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: any chance to make osSetLinkPrimitiveParams work for avatars? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: that sounds risky [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: you mean on attachments? [11:12] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: it is issue of all furniture and vehicles [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: oh [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm guessing we mane directly adjust the avatar position, etc. [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: mean [11:12] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: we can not adjust position of sittind avatars [11:12] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: only in moment od SitTarget [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya that makes more sense [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Moving seated avatars was supposed to be one of Melanie's changes [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: it will be on my agenda though I can't say when I would get to it [11:13] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: if you change animations you are in fin air [11:14] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: Justin Clark-Casey: May be we can help some how? [11:14] Mircea Kitsune: Wish I knew the C# to occasionally help [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: probably not - it involves looking at the code in detail. But once something is done, testing is very welcome [11:14] AlexRime SiLiSiLi is online. [11:15] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: Justin Clark-Casey: thanks a lot [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: no guarantees as to when but it is certainly on my agenda [11:15] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia. [11:15] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: we have furniture store freebie and it is about 500 sitting positions:) [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: everything loading really slow [11:16] Kayaker Magic: Melaine has moving a seated aatar working on Avination, are you saying that she DID NOT port that back to OpenSim? [11:16] Arielle Popstar: oh good, not just e [11:16] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... [11:16] Arielle Popstar: me^ [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: maybe because of how many avatars today [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: not as of yet. But like the sitting on child prims, I will simply implement it myself [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: loaded surprisingly quick for me today though, considering I have 3 viewers running and 2 of them are uploading bit mesh files [11:16] Arielle Popstar: no more then usual [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: bit=big [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: I filed this little Mantis a few days ago: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7006 The Online / Offline status of avatars is never shown in the group member list. Making it somewhat harder to get in touch with people in some circumstances [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats complicated for sure [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: especially considering osgrid is using flotsam groups and not core [11:18] Arielle Popstar: this ruthing sucks too [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm presming the profiles module would have to communicate with the groups service [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: Does core groups have this feature at least? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I do not think it does Mircea [11:18] Mircea Kitsune: ok [11:18] Lani Global: I wanted to express my appreciation for the dev work that has been done to enable region crossing while sitting in physical land vehicles. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I am not even sure its a profile thing [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: thats more of a core service, last login [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: lani: that works? [11:19] Lani Global: yes [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: lanI: I think that was a Melanie thing [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I didnt think that worked 100% yet either [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: unless robert also had some hand in it [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i know you can sit on a physical prim and cross [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but scripted objects I didnt think it was 100% yet [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: did not know verhicle crossing wher ebut in. only prim crossing [11:19] Lani Global: it works with some small modification to vehicle script to add states to sense 'new region' [11:19] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: Any chance to give regions some place in PLAZA to advertising and TP points? We build UserInWorld billbord based on www userInworld page. any chance install it in Plaza somewhere? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I did however see a few people figured out how to trick it [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: by resetting script after cross [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its a rough crossing but it works [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Also, out of curiosity (since I don't use these myself): Does IM group chat work, between avatars in different sims? Not to mention voice group chat, since I assume most certainly not yet [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: i stay with var. gives less headaces [11:20] Lani Global: flying vehicles have some hiccups. [11:20] delta zed is online. [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I think showing people in a group online might be a case of querying the griduser service from the profiles module [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yes for profiles [11:20] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, nice [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but in groups it would be groups making that same request [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but on mass [11:21] dan banner: alex: we can discuss that after the meeting [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it could potentially be making 1000+ requests [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: which is nasty [11:21] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: ok. sorry [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: voice group chat and group im would be very different mechanisms [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i where thinking to nebadon. its the same as checking if user online when sending message [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I even wonder how alive Vivox is at this point [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: If Vivox dies, Opensim might have issues too [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I think vivox is ok they are still giving out accounts [11:22] Kayaker Magic: What is the status of llCastRay? Is it working on Avination? Scheduled to be worked on here? [11:22] stiofain nbmcmedia: has there been some major change to addressing in links? eg hop. etc? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: it should work here Kayaker [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: has for a long time [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: stiofain: not afaik [11:22] Mircea Kitsune: Ah, right. I forgot you need accounts on them. Talk about a free and open-source vopice system, on a region ran with free open-source software :P [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: somebody is alive there - or perhaps there's just an automated script ;) [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: for vivox opensim voice can be a free sandbox area to test things :O [11:23] Lani Global: It would be wonderful, since BulletSim Physics is now widespread, if the default PhysicalPrimMax be set to = 64m in default region.ini to support the widespread use and distribution of physical vehicles content in the OpenSim Community. With more and more mesh being used, this has become an important issue. [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: that would involve getting mumble integrated [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: this laser uses Raycast [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can see it hitting my avatar [11:23] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         966ab21: 2014-01-24 00:17:39 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: llCastRay works in core but doesnt do shapes accurately. No idea about Avination [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: 64meterts. whaa no.. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: pretty sure we have the Avination code [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: Does a mono / c# version of mumble even exist? Would be nice if so [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: no, it's c++ [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer is not C$ though [11:23] Mircea Kitsune: hmm [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: err C# [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, but for an integration of mumble, it would need to be C3 likely [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the existing mumble implemetnation is a harness of functions which emulate SLVoice.exe [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: *c# [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: you wouldnt really run mumble on the simulators [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: on the client side [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: just as Vivox is a separate executable [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: whats wrong with typeing c# ? lol [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, you run mumble server as a separate server [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: much like freeswitch [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator would just pass info to the viewer and the viewer would connect to the mumble back end server [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: but freeswitch is poor qlaity etc. [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, it's an idea I'd personally avoid generally [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik, freeswitch can only use a poor quality backup codec with the vivox SLVoice.exe [11:25] Mircea Kitsune: Requiring multiple software for an opensim region to hafe full functionality [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: hmm I cant move [11:25] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002 is online. [11:25] Mircea Kitsune: lag moment [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: oh there goes [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: though the MOSEs guys keep giving me the impression that they found a way to use a higher quality codex [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: codec [11:25] delta zed: teeports into this region have been hit and miss [11:26] Mircea Kitsune: I'll keep hoping a voice module is coded originally in Opensim at some point. Though I can't do more than hope... not good enough at coding nor want to annoy the developers with it [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: unlikely Mircea [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: to much bloat [11:26] Mircea Kitsune: Maybe some years in the future or so [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nobody is going to implement a voice system in c# [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: you will almost cwertainly alwyas have to interfaec with a separate server [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya even if they did [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i would -1 inclusion in the core code [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: meh. Well, the core devs know best... [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: would need to be a addon module [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Could work as that too [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: the opensim core code is already to bloaty [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: cant have a 1gb download lol [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: Could be a separate code you can add to opensim whe compiling [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: that would make a lot more sense [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but its very difficult [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: the best bet would be to get mumble somehow included into the viewer [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Why would the code be so big though? Does decoding of voice chat happen server-side? I thought the viewers do it, and server just relays the data [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: and somebody do a clean-room implemenation of the GPL mumble region module [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: do you know how moap works? [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: no, sorry [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, there are three components to the vivox system [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: ears up [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: a client side executable (SLVoice.exe) [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: an opensim region module (VivoxModule) [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: and the vivox server (hosted by vivox) [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: all the region module does is co-oridnate setting up voice channels with the server and SLVoice.xe [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: once these are set up, SLVoice.exe exchanges voice data directly with the vivox server - it doesn't route through opensim [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: I see [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: this is similar to how moap is implemented - the viewer gets webpages directly from websites - the data doesn't flow through opensim at all [11:30] dan banner: what about the positional metadata? [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: ok. thats what i always where thinking [11:30] dan banner: thats implemented in the siren codec [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Idea was that Opensim also included its own "vivox server", and we'd be down to 2 components too (SLVoice.exe and OpenSim-voice module) [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: yeah, anbd that's the part which woin't happen [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: because writing a voice system from scratch is an entire project in itself [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: mumble need sopme voice server to right.? [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: for which you need very different expertise [11:31] Arielle Popstar: tie in google hangouts for voice or skype [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: yeah, I'm not sure - I presume that gets handled by SLVoice.exe or the client code itself (proabbly more likely) [11:33] dan banner: does mumble have same positional sound in opensim as vivox? [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: good question - I can't remember. [11:34] Mircea Kitsune: Still, what does or doesn't the SL viewer do regarding voice? More precisely, why isn't it as simple as an Opensim module to just relay voice streams from viewer to viewer, with a few lines of cude? [11:34] Mircea Kitsune: *code [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: only if the Slvoice.exe is completely replaced [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: what i rememeber from reading that muble where better then freeswitch and supported more fucntions [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: that's hardly simple in itself [11:34] dan banner: i know freeswitch doesnt and one of the reasons i have never had much interest [11:34] Mircea Kitsune: I see [11:35] delta zed: @dahlia,, there are still issues with llcastray, it fails to accurately return the UUID of any child prim when it hits a linkset... [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: if fs is used with the normal SLVoice.exe it can only use a very poor quality debug codec afaik [11:35] dan banner: to have positional sound the codec must support the metadata and afaik only vivox's siren codec (closed source) has that [11:36] Mircea Kitsune: Ah. Yes, I forgot sound needs to be positional too [11:36] dan banner: and it also moves the avatar's lips [11:36] Mircea Kitsune: Well a hacked slvoice.exe could work around that now [11:36] Mircea Kitsune: yeah, that is indeed anoher complex thing [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: apparantly mumble can do positional audio - http://mumble.sourceforge.net/Positional-Audio [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: it seems vivox expect soon anew sdk tpv viewers can use. to update old slvoice.exe files [11:37] dan banner: mircea: hacked SLvoice.exe isnt any use without the codec that has positional data [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: Positional audio should theoretically be easy, and not have to be dome by vivox / mumble. Since... couldn't the information aabout the stereo balance and volume of the sound be separate? [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: I mean you have the audio stream. You could separately tell it if to play more on the left or right [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Like llPlaysound [11:38] dan banner: its sent with the stream in vivox's codec [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its part of the codec [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Ah [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and vivox is not an open codec [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: and not forget the distance to avatar [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: we just got really lucky that freeswitch even partially worked with vivox [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: mumble is nothing like vivox in that regard completely different codecs [11:38] Vivian Klees: all of this was work Armin was needling around before he disappeared [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: for now we still can use vicox. nad that give smumble more time [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and its probably not a problem to make Mumble just work [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Since Vivox is closed source, I at least hope Opensim won't have to rely on it for long. Sooner or later, it might simply stop working [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but the problem is the only easy way to just make mumble work is completely break vivox [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: the trick is keeping both functional [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: it will require new login flags [11:39] dan banner: ya myself i stick with vivox [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: that can tell the viewer which voice module is being used [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so the viewer can seamlessly switch, otherwise its one or the other only [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: which no one wants [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: it's true though that one day vivox may simple disappear [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: or withdraw service [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: simply [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya its very possible [11:40] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Which is why if there's a choice, I'd say break vivox and go for any free one. But of course that's just my opinion [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: well. then you still have lots of noise :O [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its part of the terms of service you agree to [11:41] dan banner: i think as long as SL is around they arent likely to disappear [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I dont think so either [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't think sl pays much though [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: No. but the can stop opensim support if the like [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: I think they actually have a bunch of paying OpenSim clients too [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but there are no gaurantees free service will remain free [11:41] dan banner: ya quite a few opensim grids pay for vivox [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: I can't help wondering though... [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think a lot of people actually use the free vivox honestly [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of people sign up [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: no? I know a few universities that do [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but not many actually use it, or they rarely use it [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: i use it sometimes [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yes they use it [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: If positional audio was out of the way, wouldn't a simple media stream codec work too? Like VLC for instance. I can easily use vlc to stream or receive video or voice at any time. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but its not putting huge strains on the vivox cloud [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: thats really my point [11:42] Mircea Kitsune: Opensim could even use VLC for voice? But witohut positioning and lipsync then [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: each node can handle 25000 concurrent users [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: every free opensim account on that same node [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: opensim maby 100 on rare day ? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as were not crashing that node I think it will remain free [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, its a sandbox for vivox maby to [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: yes, actually at one point we had full control of this node [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Adam and I did anyway [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I personally think vivox are just on life support. They haven'#t even put out a press release for 18 months [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: http://www.vivox.com/news/press-releases.php [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya hard to say, I dont think so though [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: they make crazy money even just from SL [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: you say that like you've seen their accounts ;) [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: they have a ton of clients for video games [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: as soon someone figured out what data the viewer need there's maby more possible [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: mm mmaybe you're right [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: I cant seem them just poofing [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I forgot they had eve online as a customer [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: lots of competition in video games. Teamspeak comes to mind [11:46] dan banner: vivox is used in a ton of games [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya but teamspeak isnt integrated [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, sounds like I'm a bit ignorant :) [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Couldn't an opensim module interface with Teamspeak? [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: doesnt need to be integrated [11:46] Henning Lionheart: afraid the old wolf here has to dash now [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Actually, that would be even cooler [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: if anything the viewer would integrate not the simulator [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: you think they might put out a press release once in a while [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: vivox itself dontr disap[ear soon. but if theneed to sade money its always possible the stop opensim. dont think 1 node increase the bill much [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Because then people could tune into parcel voice without using SL even, just with classic TS clients [11:47] dan banner: justin: too busy counting money maybe ;p [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Same way this text chat system could optionally use an IRC channel for example [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: teamspeak. yuck thats poor quality [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya honestly it doesnt surprise me at all Justin, for a communications company, Vivox has never been good at communicating [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: even 6 years ago [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: there better opensource voice clients [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if you really want to, why not just integrate skype ;) [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: if you don't care about lipsync [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: they are actually better now than they were 5-6 years ago [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. If they can drop Opensim support, the question isn't if they will, but rather when they're likely to [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, did LL learned it from vivox or vivox from LL ?:) [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Eh, Skype is close-source [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: And probably a much more different mechanism [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: so, it's always there and it's free! [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: integrate the voice channels and set up a call between everyone on a parcel.. ok, perhaps not that realistic [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: linphone ? [11:48] dadix forever: there are plans to add voxel to opensim? [11:48] dan banner: it hink we have more pressing issues than voice anyway [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Teamspeak is Open-Source IIRC, and uses a much simpler system. It actually could be a realistic module [11:48] Nebadon Izumi is offline. [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: used to use skype in SL before vivox was added [11:49] Nebadon Izumi is online. [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: indeed [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: dadix: Adding voxels to Opensim would probably be a small problem. Adding them to viewers would [11:49] Vivian Klees: there is even p2p voice now [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey wonders what would count as a big problem for Mircea [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: grr I crashed [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: voxels is sofar i see a bit different approch. and i follow that close [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: Usually, I imagine something is a big problem when it could be really hard to code and maintain [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, like transplanting a voxel system into something never designed for that, perhaps? [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Or unsafe, like depending on a closed source service [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya I dont see voxels working well here [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: in simple case i wuld compare 1 voxel with 1 rim cube [11:50] dadix forever: I post on osgrid forum a voxel library [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: eeeh :P [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Truth be told, voxels would be very hard on SL. Though not impossible [11:50] dadix forever: is bsd - licenced [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i see opensim is not easy to change for voxels [11:51] Mircea Kitsune: I believe that for voxels, there need to be viewer changes first [11:51] dadix forever: I talked with the developer of that voxel library and he want to dd his full suport to implement his library with opensim [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: before we close, anybody want to discuss any realistic opensim issues? [11:52] Mircea Kitsune: nice :) [11:52] Mircea Kitsune is sorry if the voice thing was an unrealistic thing in this regard [11:52] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: so this region cross problem for vehicles is solved? [11:52] Mircea Kitsune: Ah, or voxels [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: i need robert for that justion. dont think you know if the var terrain edit/ loading improvm,ents are in master [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I'm not up to date with the status of var regions [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: what is it that people want to do with voxels that they cant do now? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: though clearly robert is working on things - like an effort to fix megaregions support [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i have read justin [11:53] Lani Global suggested physical prim size max default should be increased from 10m to 64m to accommodate mesh vehicles, because BulletSim Phys now [11:53] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: region cross problem for vehicles solved in Avination [11:54] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: any chance to bring it here? [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I auggest you all bug Melanie about it directly [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: which I'm sure will bring about a tempered response [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: ?\B8.\95* LoL *\95.\B8? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: actually [11:55] dadix forever: voxel implementation will add a lots of good things for opensim [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: vehcile cross requires fixes from robert as well [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: dadix, such as? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: because Avination doesnt use Bulletsim [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: dadix: It's a harder thing that needs a lot of thinking first [11:55] dadix forever: terrain editind , [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Considering anyone could even do it [11:56] AlexRime SiLiSiLi: oh I see it is need to talk with Bulletsim team too... [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: voxels. and we still have normal thin gs not right :O [11:56] dadix forever: add default materials [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: We'd need a marching cubes algorithm in the viewer [11:56] Dahlia Trimble: cube terrains? no thanks [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: there used to be a way to snap cubes to there edges [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i forget how now though [11:56] dadix forever: voxel don't mean cube big like in minecraft dhalia [11:56] delta zed: snap to is a viewer option [11:56] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002 is offline. [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: if you know, i like to hear nebadon [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: dadix, voxels are very difficult to render and the viewer is already quite overloaded [11:57] dadix forever: the cube can be 1000 times smaller than a voxel minecraft cube [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: im just new in voxels. the hav efunny intresstings sides anmd question sides [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: Voxels are the future still. I'd like to dream of a day when primitives will disappear entirely even, and be converted to voxels. But that's haaaaaard >.< [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: you really think the SL viewer could render billions of tiny cubes? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya the only way voxels work well is using them like Minecraft [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: It couldn't. Which is why marching cubes is needed [11:58] dadix forever: voxel are not hard to rendind if we use paralel render [11:58] dadix forever: with gpu [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i think current tests get frame drops aroudn 200.000 voxels. [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marching_cubes [11:58] Dahlia Trimble: define "parallel render" [11:58] Mircea Kitsune: It needs this [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: buit thats pre-alpha software [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: to do tiny little pixel level voxels is crazy hard, especially if your mixing it with standard geometry mesh [11:58] delta zed: justin has there been an official post that master is useful again or ar you still in retro-fix fromdump" mode?? [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: but if you go do voxels at piclel size. uhmm (eeps) [11:59] Dahlia Trimble has actually written a voxel-capable viewer so has some idea of the problems involved [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: pixel [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Minecraft can put a good load on a GPU and it doesn't have nearly the eye candy and possible view range Opensim does. And you'd have a lot more to render if you're talking small voxels. [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: Not that I know of sadly [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: delta: I'm still in retrofix mode, though I hope to devote some time to looking at master issues soon [11:59] dadix forever: dhalia http://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/~mschwarz/papers/vox-siga10.pdf [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. For proper voxels, we'll need video cards from the 2025 era [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: minecraft have only one voxel size. looked at it. also at the freee minetest. and someway its attractive to. not much thinking needed lol [12:00] delta zed: and whats being done to support the much larger vieweing distances that var regions present??? will i ver see out of the var region im in into 2 or more neighbors??? [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: but for nice lanmdscAPES YOU STILL NEED OPENSIM. AND NICE LOOKING TRAIN ETC [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: delta: that doesn't happen already? [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: oops [12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Also: If anyone's a lot into voxels and wants an open-source version, look up Minetest. I'm somewhat a developer on there too [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yes you can adjust draw distance in the OpenSim.ini [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: the default is 512 [12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Even thought about using Minetest to make something like Second Life [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that still works for var regions? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: it should [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its just passing info to viewer [12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: Voxels are neat things but I don't see what they offer exactly that mesh and similar doesn't already? [12:01] delta zed: viwere limits in phoenix are 1024??? [12:01] dadix forever: we can ran at this time voxel in webbrowser in html5 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: that says get region data to this distance [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: delta: pheonix is an ancient viewer [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: mircea, looked at minetest. and trioed the minecraft demo. still minecraft have a few nice thinsg for now [12:01] Mircea Kitsune: Otaku: Complete ability to create / destroy fluid geometry first of all. Everything having an interior, etc [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: I have a 3x4 vargrid that consists of all 768x768 varregions [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its like 2 miles wide by 1.6 tall or something [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: dadix, "patches are welcome" [12:01] delta zed: bing in the middle of a 9 region square no even with view distance maxed one or more of the sims blinks out when you move away [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer can only render so much [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what you do [12:02] Dahlia Trimble: the viewer is already overloaded as it is [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: 1024meters is way to much for a computer to handle without crazy low framerates or less smaooth [12:02] dadix forever: voxel with webrowser with this engine http://voxeljs.com/ [12:03] dadix forever: which is free [12:03] dadix forever: bsd license [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: dadix, drawing a couple hundred cubes in a web browser is not the same as drawing several billion tiny voxels in a already overloaded viewer [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: anyway, i read always voxels are heavy. but the want to use voxel world systems for tabelst and smartphones. [12:04] dadix forever: so the ideea is actual pc-s can manage voxels [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Have to look into the voxel thing more cause still don't quite get the current advantage. [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: but, its all open source, feel free to implement it :) [12:04] Mircea Kitsune: If you draw them as little cubes yes. There are alternatives though [12:04] Lani Global: in surveys of opensim users over the past several years, "Vehicles" has consistently been the top issue wanted. It is great to see progress in this area recently, with the region crossing improved. Much appreciation to the devs who have been making this happen! Vehicle content creators look forward to more progress on this popular issue. [12:04] Mircea Kitsune: Marching cubes is the way. Or rather, a realtime meshes. Which can surround a set virtual 3D points with a surface, that has a certain polygon count [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: Otaku. your not the only one. offocrse building can be very easy [12:04] Mircea Kitsune: And LOD support [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and do other things now. Goodbye folks [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: Later, see you :) [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: see you Justin, I need to get running too [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Justin can you update wiki? [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:05] Vivian Klees: bye Justin too bad you sat through this [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i lost big chunk of log when my viewer crashed [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: or if you pass me log I can [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: you could do what minecraft does and convert the voxels to mesh before drawing them :) [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: will do. I also looked at the account moderation/creation plugins lastnight and should be doable [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: i can paste the chat to notecard nebadon [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: awesome [12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: I just don't see exactly what voxels can do better than a good mesh system. [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: if needed. you only need to sort it maby [12:06] dadix forever: http://stoyannk.wordpress.com/voxels-library/ [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: thanks Justin [12:06] dadix forever: look this demo [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Real fluid geometry [12:06] delta zed is offline. [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Wtf r real fluid geometry?