Chat log from the meeting on 2008-01-29

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: as well as being head bending mathematics [11:16] You: nope [11:16] You: relog didnt help [11:16] Teravus Ousley: .. probably have that done in a few days.. however, the asserts are in there to help discover what we're doing wrong. [11:16] You: hey chris [11:16] Charles Krinkeb: And now we have differing results on differing test setups as Tervaus cannot see these errors happen on his local test setup, so it gets tougher to diagnose. [11:17] Teravus Ousley: So. Parhaps a library with asserts and without. Because some regions need to be up [11:17] Teravus Ousley: :D even if something wrong is done. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting idea! [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi mircea [11:17] Hiro Protagonist: very good idea Ter [11:17] Charles Krinkeb: Teravus. That might work if it is an OpenSim.ini setting. [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: floating above the fllor again... brb [11:17] Teravus Ousley: no, it's a completely different library [11:17] Charles Krinkeb: Hi, Mircea, I love your lights and the awning. [11:17] Teravus Ousley: it'll be a 'swap out the odelib.so file [11:17] Mircea Kitsune: thank you :) [11:18]  Mircea Kitsune: we seem to be floating a little above the floor. This happened to me many times [11:18]  Charles Krinkeb: That makes it difficult for me to test as one of my goals is to stay as close to svn as possible. [11:18]  You: yea its a side effect of POS [11:18]  Hiro Protagonist: so not unlike when we were using the 'debug' version of ode, back before it was really useable at all? [11:18]  Mircea Kitsune: ah yeah, it happens in POS [11:19]  You: floating fixes all [11:19]  You: lol [11:19]  Charles Krinkeb: Why dont we just make POS a little better and wait for ODE to catch up. We can scare the ODE logic by having POS work better. [11:19]  Teravus Ousley: well, as always, it's up to you sir. :D I'm just proposing ideas to make *your* life easier [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: but is anybody willing to work on POS? [11:20]  You: yea if we can tweak out POS it would actually be a better fit here on Wright Plaza than ODE [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: well, I'd be willing to run a 'stable' rev of ode, and switch to a 'test' version when it was time for testing [11:20] Charles Krinkeb: Where in the POS logic would you expect the bouncing issue to be, Teravus? Can you give us a clue with a subroutine name or possible theory? [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: whatever or where ever said 'stable' ode came from [11:21] Teravus Ousley: alas, I've only added two lines to POS [11:21] Teravus Ousley:. [11:21] Charles Krinkeb: Can you contact DanXor and see if you can get him fired up a little bit, Teravus? [11:22] Teravus Ousley: send it to the opensim-dev list :D [11:22] Chris D: I see that sationary avatars are showing continours updates (those not floating or sitting on prims). Is this a POS effect? [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: +1. Perhaps you could make the appeal Charles? [11:22] Charles Krinkeb: ?? DanXor is our physics guy. Isnt he the one that brought you in? [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: oh god, not that problem still [11:22] Teravus Ousley: mostly.. I note that I have a hard time replicating the bounce on my systems [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, still huge agent updates [11:22] Teravus Ousley: so it seems to also be related to load [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: Chris D: don't know for sure - I can't replicate this on my own test system [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: though possibly I haven't been thorough enough - it could also be a more complicated load issu [11:23] You: maybe we shoud send Teravus a save-xml of wright plaza [11:23] Charles Krinkeb: An appeal needs to be made by someone that is bothered by the bouncing. If I make such an appeal it will not express any of your feelings. [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: Charles, the bouncing doesn't bother you? [11:23] Teravus Ousley: well, that wouldn't explicitly help.. the situation would have to be very similar [11:24] Teravus Ousley: .. I'd need an exact copy of the server config (not just wright plaza.. but all of the plazas) [11:24] Charles Krinkeb: Teravus: You can log onto the Wright Plaza console any time you wish. [11:25] Teravus Ousley: I can however, replicate the '1 meter offset' [11:25] Charles Krinkeb: My only issue is I cannot babysit it 24/7 so it needs to be running without crashing. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: Aren't we auto restarting o ncrash? [11:25] Charles Krinkeb: Doesnt work. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: physics crash, at least [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: was that an ode only thing? [11:26] Charles Krinkeb: Crash is to the bash prompt with ODE latest r3192. [11:26] You: lol omg [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: We should really attempt restart on any crash, in my opinion [11:26] You: my clothes are changing [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: automatically [11:26] You: 15 minutes later [11:26] Mircea Kitsune is using ODE all the time on her sim, but rarely ever had any problems with it [11:26]  Teravus Ousley: well, the ODE asserts 'suck' [11:26] Teravus Ousley: in that you can't try/catch them [11:26] Charles Krinkeb: The little mice in the squirrel cage had to get up to speed to send the files to you, Nebadon. [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: crap [11:27] You: lol [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: BulletX is good, but i have a bug with it in which when you land ona surface, you keep slowly sliding forever [11:27] You: My Packets are being delivered by Horseback messanger today [11:28] Charles Krinkeb: Can we make a little progress in chatting about assets for a while. I think we have perhaps beat the physics horse to death for one meeting. [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: To come back to the ODE asserts... are they giving you useful info Teravus when they happen on other people's sytems? Would we lose much by disabling them in an alternate ODE library? [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey never tires of whipping horse flesh [11:28] Charles Krinkeb: Ok. No problem. [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey wonders if Teravus is lost altogether since he dropped off irc [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: Charles, anything in particular you wanted to say regarding assets? [11:29] paulie Femto: :) [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: Hey Paulie :D [11:30]  paulie Femto: Howdy. :) [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey realizes the sim could also lag out at any momenmnt... [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: those damn agent updates [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: why on earth are they happening....? [11:30] You: HE LIVES [11:30] You: i saw him typin [11:30] You: lol [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: random twitching [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: :) [11:30]  Teravus Ousley: It's hard to say. When developing vehicles it might be useful information [11:30]  Charles Krinkeb: The assetserver is not evil. It just needs a bit more TLC. We, as testers, should strive to get unambiguous Mantis reports for the developers to help them work through the issues. [11:31]  Mircea Kitsune: Yes, yesterday i built here a lot. It has been dozens of times since primitive sizes, texttures, positions, and everything kept slipping back and i had to struggle to set them [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think the problem is the testers don't see any data to work with [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are no statistics and the exception traces are often uninformative [11:31]  Charles Krinkeb: One data point is that we see the assetserver loosing its mysql connection a couple of times each week. [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, we should see if we can get better at handling that [11:32] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. there is something else i wanted to say about. I was wondering if there is anyone still working on implementing lsl functions [11:32] Charles Krinkeb: Should we return a default asset when an asset cannot be found, instead of no asset? [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: Mircea, I think some of the problems here are caused by the constant agent updates bug [11:32] You:. [11:32] Kurt Stringer: Mircea: yes, I am but VERY slowly at the moment [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: Mircea, this is causing constant traffic between sim and client, potentially crowding out other packets [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: Could do, I think that's low priority though [11:33] Charles Krinkeb: Yes, Mircea. About 110 or the 328 are running now. We need to gain a little more momentum on implementing LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs again. [11:33] Chris D: if we all fly just above the ground, the updates cease. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: just seeing if we can get everything a little more stable should be high pri, imho [11:33] Mircea Kitsune: yeah indeed, its more high-priority then scripts. i still wondered though [11:34] Kurt Stringer: Charles: agreed, good momentum at this point [11:34] You: hmm so maybe its POS related? [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe this updates issue is connected with pos [11:34] You: yea thats what i was just thinking justin [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: yep :) [11:34]  paulie Femto: gotta run but I'll read teh backlog l8r. [11:34]  Hiro Protagonist: brb, must have fluids :) [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I'd be really interested in seeing an ODE without asserts, as long as that doesn't lose useful debug data [11:35] Charles Krinkeb: I can see updates on those who are standing, but not those who are floating. [11:35] Chris D: Currently Teravus and Paulie are showing continuous updates. [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: see you soon Paluie [11:35] paulie Femto: bye 4 now [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: POS seems to have bit rotted over the last month [11:35] Charles Krinkeb: Bet if Teravus floats, the updates will decrease. [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: bye paulie [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: what are asserts exactly? Sorry i dont know [11:35] paulie Femto: someone capture a log of this and post it for those who are missing this? [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: asserts are statements in the code which check if a certain condition holds true [11:35] You: paulie float too [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: back :) [11:35]  Charles Krinkeb: Voila, no updates for Teravus now. [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: if not, they blurt out an error, or something analagous [11:36]  Mircea Kitsune: wb. and nice, i see now [11:36]  You: oh or just leave [11:36]  You: lol [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: .. parhaps POS is sending out all of the updates. [11:36]  Charles Krinkeb: Maybe there is a clue there. [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm [11:36]  Mircea Kitsune: From my experience, i would suggest using ODE on wright plaza all the time, but without enabling the physical flag [11:36]  You: thats how it was [11:37]  You: but it crashes once a day or so [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: does anybody know for sure if they are animation updates? I heard that they were, but this might not be true or confirmed [11:37]  Mircea Kitsune: ODE is the only one that never caused any trouble, such as floating, being thrown, misscoliding, etc [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: hmm.. thats weird [11:37] Charles Krinkeb: Mircea. The plazas crash within 16-24 hours of enabling ODE. It is important that they do not crash. [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: maybe there are some physical prims under the terrain or something [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: In that case dont, but i find that weird [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: charles, how about a duct tape solution? A watchdog process that checks if the regions are running and restarts them if necessary [11:37] Mircea Kitsune: I wonder why [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: checking every minute or so [11:38]  Mircea Kitsune: hmm... i wonder if my sim crashes because of ODE too now... [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: Charles, how do you feel about basicphysics? [11:38] You: personally Justin i think that should be a permanent feature of OpenSIM [11:38] Charles Krinkeb: I would rather we fix it right or we will be plagued with this when traffic starts increasing to other regions. I can see this becoming an issue with the IBM internal test grid. [11:38] You: whenever a sim is not running it should restart itself [11:38] You: unles a shutdown is issued [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: I live bulletX, but it makes me slide like an ice cube like i said [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon, yeah, it depends on whether these things are detectable from within the vm. As Teravus says, they may not be throwing exceptions [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: but in principle I would hope there is some way to tell [11:39] You: yea i found BulletX also doesnt like border crossing [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: yeah its possible [11:39] Kurt Stringer: Hi Sean [11:39] Neas Bade: sorry folks, I was off futzing on things [11:39] You: hmm maybe we can make a small app that runs along side of OpenSIM [11:40] You: to check if its running [11:40] Mircea Kitsune: its ok, wb [11:40]  You: and if its not it relaunches it [11:40]  Neas Bade: man, what's up with the bouncing still? [11:40] You: lol [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that would be good [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: neas - welcome to the last 40 minutes :) [11:40]  Kurt Stringer: hehheh [11:40]  Neas Bade: fortunately it looks like I've got scrollback :) [11:41] Neas Bade: is that why everyone is hovering? [11:41] Teravus Ousley: something in POS is causing tons of updates.. [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, yep :) [11:41]  Teravus Ousley: the updates stop when you hover [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: if your feet don't touch the ground (well a bit more than that) you're okay [11:41]  Mircea Kitsune: yeah i can sense a lot of lag and server stress here [11:41]  Neas Bade: is there a reason we are using POS instead of ODE? [11:41]  Teravus Ousley: .. so it'll be the collisions that are at issue [11:41]  Charles Krinkeb: Neas. ODE crashes within 16-24 hours of enabling it. [11:41]  Teravus Ousley: .. under high load, the collisions seem to exhibit erratic behavior in POS [11:42]  Mircea Kitsune: What happens if we stil try BulletX on wright plaza? [11:42]  Neas Bade: I think that sorting that out with ODE would be a better use of time than spending it on POS [11:42]  Neas Bade: I like the posters in here [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: neas, Ter suggested that perhaps we could take the asserts out of ODE for a 'stable' version, but have the assert filled version as well (as options). Any opinion? [11:43] Neas Bade: nice job whoever did those [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: yeah theyre nice [11:43] Neas Bade: anything that helps us debug would be great :) [11:43]  Charles Krinkeb: Babblefrog and Nebadon. [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: Teravus, I presume the assert must crash the ODE? [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, this would lose debug information... [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: removing the asserts, presumably [11:43]  Teravus Ousley: no, the errors are 100% handle-able within the ODE library [11:44]  Teravus Ousley: the developers of ODE are scientists and mathmeticians though [11:44]  Teravus Ousley: .. so their idea of a simulation is absolute rigid perfection [11:44]  Charles Krinkeb: 8 avatars, 50% CPU, 1235Mbyte VIRT [11:44]  You: wow [11:44]  You: thats really high [11:45]  Teravus Ousley: .. and so they assert on every little issue instead of handling it effectively [11:45]  You: 1235mb [11:45]  You: thats absurdly high [11:45]  Mircea Kitsune: wow... 50% cup for 8 avatars is enormous. If its a bug though its understandabel [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: *cpu *understandable [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: What do you reckon - could we remove the asserts? [11:45] Teravus Ousley: Yes, we could. The only issue is they provide needed feedback from the library [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: cpu is probably not helped by the constant agent updates, though they have dropped off some [11:45] Teravus Ousley: .. for solving issues [11:46] Teravus Ousley: .. essentially.. without them, doing something.. that is wrong, will end up in the action not being done and possibly no way to figure out it wasn't done. [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: looks like we're in a hole then [11:46] Teravus Ousley: so, it'll have to be done carefully [11:47] Teravus Ousley: .. in such a way that it's possible to know that the the action wasn't done. [11:47] Teravus Ousley: like.. 'Invalid operation for locked space', for example [11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Can you wrap the assert logic in console debug messages? [11:47] Teravus Ousley: .. there is a locking bug somewhere in the ode library. [11:47] Teravus Ousley: unfortunately I have not been able to discover it [11:48]  Neas Bade: ODE is still contained to a single thread, right? [11:48] Teravus Ousley: yes, but the collisions sometimes return at odd times compared to the actions [11:48] Neas Bade: ok [11:48]  Teravus Ousley: .. this causes the locked space issues [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: Teravus: this is all code within ODE rather than within OpenSim? [11:49] Teravus Ousley: the Asserts are [11:49] Teravus Ousley: and they're currently hard coded to basically call 'stop' [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: ennggggggffff [11:49] Teravus Ousley: yep [11:49] Teravus Ousley: evil [11:49] Teravus Ousley: which is why a better system needs to be in place for it [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, perhaps we shall just have to see what comes to pass in this area then [11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Your blue update cloud just stopped, Neas. [11:50] Neas Bade: yeh, because I flew up [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps duct tape it with some kind of watchdog to restart the region for now [11:51] Charles Krinkeb: I know [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: from outside the virtual machine, possibly [11:51] You: wtf [11:51] Neas Bade: my suggestion would be that if we can make a mod to ODE to get real data on crashes, which should switch WP back to it even if it means crashing [11:51] You: why is the water bottle moved? [11:52] Teravus Ousley: heh, someone moved it? [11:52] You: somewone moved the column i guess [11:52] You: ya know [11:52] You: we really really need to fox that [11:52] Charles Krinkeb: Which gets us to permissions, methinks. [11:52] You: fix it too [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: perms? [11:53] You: we should not be able to move stuff by clicking on it [11:53]  You: no if you click a prim it will slide [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: yes, i noticed that. it has caused a lot of trouble for me [11:53] You: its really bad [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: sometimes i think the editor is open and when i click somethingl, i deset it [11:53]  Teravus Ousley: that's 'grab' [11:53] You: people dont realize and move prims out of place very easily [11:53] Mircea Kitsune: there should be a 0,35 second necessity to hold the click or so, before it moves [11:53] Charles Krinkeb: Can you lock the water bottle and the column, Nebadon? [11:53] You: you should only be able to grab in edit move [11:53] You: edit mode [11:53] You: no [11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: it's really a perms thing - we shouldnt have perms to do that [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: i dont really want the click-drag removed, but not for it to be so fast either [11:54] You: click drag should only work in Edit Mode [11:54] You: it should not work unless your have edited the object [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: is it like that on the linden grid? [11:54] You: yes [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: i remember click-dragging prims on the linden grid [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: ah wait, only physical ones physicallt [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: *physivally [11:55] Teravus Ousley: well, Estate managers can move any prim in a region. .. and there's a lot of prim in wright plaza with no owner.. that's set to 'everyone can move' [11:55] You: yea physical prims yes [11:55] You: yea but that column isnt [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: ah yeah, in that case its all correct. Click-dragging normal prims should be disabled [11:55] Teravus Ousley: yep, that had to be an estate manager or the owner [11:56] You: some times i go to cam on a prim [11:56] You: and i move it [11:56]  You: drives me nuts [11:56] You: lol [11:56] You: plus theres no undo [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: indeed, something else i have missed [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: undo [11:56] You: wouldnt be so catastrophic if there was an undo option [11:57] Teravus Ousley: I'm not entirely sure undo would help 'grab' options [11:57] Charles Krinkeb: Asset question: Is there a way to manipulate the mysql database to give an owner to prims on the plazas that do not have owners? [11:57] You: yea me either [11:57] Teravus Ousley: .. as a lot of things get done in grab operations [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: I also discovered a bad problem with linking/unlinking; if the parts of a linkset/prikmset you want to link/unlink are toated, when you do the link/unlink they all roate at random [11:57] Mircea Kitsune: *roated [11:58] Teravus Ousley: There's a patch that doesn't apply for that on mantis [11:58] You: yea i find that linksets only really work well if there are no wierd rotations [11:58] Teravus Ousley: .. I put it as feedback [11:58] Teravus Ousley: so the person who submitted it can fix it [11:58]  Charles Krinkeb: 9 avatars, 48% CPU, 1309 MByte VIRT [11:59] You: hmm wonder why its consuming so much memory [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey thinks immortal asset cache [11:59] Charles Krinkeb: gamma rays [11:59] You: lol [11:59] You: must be American Made Ram [11:59] You: Obesity Ram [11:59] Mircea Kitsune: :) [11:59]  Teravus Ousley: How many regions are running on this server, out of curiosity? [11:59]  Charles Krinkeb: 3 [12:00]  You: or Oram for short [12:00]  Charles Krinkeb: Wright Plaza, Lbsa Plaza and Prior Plaza. [12:00]  Teravus Ousley: yes, seems very high [12:00]  Charles Krinkeb: Its in a colo in San Diego with a fat pipe. [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: could do approx asset cache memory usage as a stat on the region server [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: see if I can prove my theory [12:00]  Mircea Kitsune: Ah i thought you asked about how many sim the grid has. was curious about that too [12:01]  Mircea Kitsune: think there are around 50 sims on this grid [12:01]  Charles Krinkeb: 143 [12:01]  Mircea Kitsune: sweet [12:01]  You: heres the speedtest results from Underverse server [12:01]  You: http://www.speedtest.net/result/227327572.png [12:02]  You: wish i could get this kinda speed at my house [12:03] You: mic check 1 2 1 2 [12:03] You: lol [12:03] Hiro Protagonist: no kidding! [12:04] Teravus Ousley: Child agents item bugs me still -2 child agents :P [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: I hade to scrape my chin off the floor LoL [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: ok, if noone else wants to say anything, theres something i wanted to suggest [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: please Mircea [12:06] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to fly - I'll catch y'all later [12:06] Chris D: Bye Hiro [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Well, if many people would work on oepnsim, it would grow faster. The reason i dont is because, even after reading falf of a C# tutorial, i cant understand a thing. So, I have been thinking about something, [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: see you soon [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Well, [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: bye hiro [12:06] Charles Krinkeb: I need to go also. [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: bye charles [12:06] Chris D: bye Charles [12:06] Teravus Ousley: take care Charles [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: I have been thinking if, someonce could try and make a "C# opensim tutorial", easy to understand for people who dont know the code well [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: later charles [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: It would probably be a lot, but i dont think its possible for new ones to learn it without one from those who know [12:07] Teravus Ousley: C# tutorials would be 900 pages and months of work to put together. [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah.... [12:07]  Teravus Ousley: .. [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: codebase is already big (imo) [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps if there was some particular area... ? [12:09] Kurt Stringer: there are bits and peices already, however, a refreshed architecture- level overview might help [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: We wouldnt need to understand absolutely everything, but at least for small modifications, i touhgh [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: *tought [12:10] Kurt Stringer: whew, I thought I was stuck in chat mode again [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, each different small mod would require a different knowledge set [12:11] Mircea Kitsune: yeah [12:11] Chris D: Mircea, is there a particular area that you are interested in? [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps if there was something in particular - I don't mind writing what little I know up if there's a specific need [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but I find it very difficult to motivate just for the general case :) [12:12]  Teravus Ousley: yeah, IMHO, it requires an advanced understanding of programming in general. [12:12]  Mircea Kitsune: Not exactly. I usually just try to go over the parts i notice i would like to fix or implement, but i stand no change :) [12:12] Teravus Ousley: .. however, not necessarily in C# [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Mircea, do you know other programming languages? [12:13] Mircea Kitsune: no, ive never been into that till now [12:14] Mircea Kitsune: i only used to do small little things in qbasic 7 years ago really [12:14] Chris D: It is difficult to advise the best approach as we do not know how much software exprience you have [12:14] Mircea Kitsune: yeah i dont have much, but i thought it could be easy to learn the small things for opensim [12:15] You: best be is buy some books [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I'm afraid I think it would be tough [12:15] You: with tutorial DVDs [12:15] You: then sift through the code [12:15] You: microsoft has a good C# reference on their MSDN website [12:15] Kurt Stringer: actually there are some really good tutorials [12:15] Kurt Stringer: yes Neb [12:15] Teravus Ousley: Walking the animals.. brb [12:16] Kurt Stringer: the VSCSEE has a good tutorial also [12:17] You: hah who wants to hear something funny [12:17] Mircea Kitsune: well, the reason why i said a opensim specific tutorial is that i seen there are many files, with parts one from another. and its hard to find where each belongs, and where to go to to work on a certain thing [12:17] You: you might have read it in the IRC last night [12:17] You: but MaltoSosa came into IRC channel last night wanted to know if Central Grid could donate to OpenSIM project [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea, the trouble is you would have to drill down very far to get anything more than a general idea [12:18] You: so i suggested to him that he package up his website and make it available to everyone [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: would be a big doc, too much for one person I think [12:18] You: and he made up about 5 excuses why he couldnt [12:18] You: lol [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: how about just money? [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: A personal donation, perhaps? :) [12:18] Mircea Kitsune: yeah. I cant even read 5 pages cuz my head starts to spin >.> I guess its harder then itought. my idea falls then [12:18]  You: Yea thats what he originally wanted to do [12:18]  You: but we really have no structure in place for acccepting donations [12:19]  Kurt Stringer: Mircea - without knowing namespaces, classes and instances, it would be very confusing [12:19]  Mircea Kitsune: yeah [12:19]  You: i just thought it was funny he made a bunch of excuses why he probably couldnt donate the website [12:19]  You: lol [12:19]  Kurt Stringer: once you get that part understood, it will make better sense [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, sounds like a straight no would have been better :) [12:20] Chris D: RL calls, must go. Bye all. [12:20] Mircea Kitsune: later [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bye chrisd [12:20] You: yea mainly he reason was is because it was written in Cold Fusion and no one would know how to use it [12:20]  You: then the next was becasue they use ODBC to tie to database [12:20] You: lol [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: right, time for me to go too I think [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: see you all later [12:21] You: ok i'll post up the log to the website [12:21] You: not that anyone really missed much [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: excellent [12:21] You: but i will anyway [12:21] Neas Bade: yeh, I'm emerging packages on this power box to get opensim up there [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we've missed a few logs recently [12:21] Mircea Kitsune: yups.. same here im aadraid. i want to stay too but its getting late and i must finish the daily things for this hour [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: trying to remember but I keep quitting the client before I do [12:22]  You: alrighty talk soon everyone