Chat log from the meeting on 2008-02-05

[11:29] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: hi again [11:30] Teravus Ousley: hehe, just disabled physics again to make sure it's working [11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. I seem to be stuck. [11:31] Lawson English: I be ruthed (Saijanai here) [11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not fly 4 me [11:31]  Teravus Ousley: yep. that's what it means to disable physics [11:31] Teravus Ousley: .. no physics updates get done [11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok [11:31]  MasTuVu DansLaNuit: lol [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: mass login [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: thats good though it actually is able to handle that [11:31] Teravus Ousley: everything gets completely locked into place that would have been done by physics [11:32] Lawson English: I appear to fly, clientside though [11:32] Teravus Ousley: it's good for testing and debugging [11:33] You: charles: where are you getting your stats from. top? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: wooooo [11:34] Lawson English: does one mod appearance in rgular SL sim and then come here? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: you have to create new parts [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in your inventory 1st [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: nah, you create new clothes/shape etc in inv [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: then wear 'em [11:34]  Babblefrog Ballistic: Then you can mod appearance [11:35] Charles Krinkeb: justin. Yes, stats were coming from top [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:35] You: anyway, where were we? [11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I think the comment was just made that we need to be more concerned about working on our memory footprint. [11:36] You: heh :) [11:37]  You: Certainly it's something I will start thinking about, though there may be more experience people who can get to the root of the issues quicker [11:37]  MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not delete my cube [11:37]  You: it may also be a multi-area problem [11:37]  MasTuVu DansLaNuit: as yesterday ;) [11:37] Teravus Ousley: well, I have a feeling that in this case.. it might have been unacked bytes overload [11:37] Charles Krinkeb: There is a universal law that goes "All software will expand to fill available RAM plus 20%" [11:37] You: hmm okay, do you intend to look at that, Ter? [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: lmao Charles [11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. then a slowdown in clientview.. which just exasperated the problem [11:38] Babblefrog Ballistic: Do we need to do a better job of marking packets reliable/not [11:38] You: I ask only so we don't dupe effort [11:38] Charles Krinkeb: Question: If two avatars cross a region boundary, are they still ANPC to each other and can they "wear" their shape/skin across said region boundaries yet?" [11:38]  MasTuVu DansLaNuit: where are pizza and hamburgers here ? ;) [11:38]  Teravus Ousley: well, that might help [11:39]  Babblefrog Ballistic: Or implement some way to toss packets if more recent ones supersede the old ones [11:39]  Teravus Ousley: it would be a good point of investigation, [11:39]  Neas Bade: Babblefrog, that would be really good to do [11:39]  Neas Bade: honestly, that should help a reasonable amonut on the network front I think [11:39]  Teravus Ousley: the other thing that will help is joha's packet patch. Which he said he was testing now and may have something ready two weeks [11:39]  Babblefrog Ballistic: Not that I have any clie how to do that :-) [11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: I think that the network is really starting to become an issue for me [11:40]  You: Teravus: this is on top of the patch we saw a month or so ago? [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I think that one got rolled back [11:40] You: I thought it did but then it got back in once it was fixed [11:40] Teravus Ousley: yep, it wasn't quite ready for prime time [11:40] You: oh okay [11:41] Teravus Ousley: so Joha made it function by generating new packets again [11:41] You: I take it he's not working on it all the time then? [11:42] Babblefrog Ballistic: My bandwidth is really spiky here. Looks like a symptom of something [11:43] Babblefrog Ballistic: less than 20 for a few seconds, then about 450 for a few seconds, then back down again, repeat [11:43] You: anybody have anything else they want to bring up? Apart from our memory footprint :) [11:43] Teravus Ousley: yeah, on the textures for me [11:43]  Teravus Ousley: 0---450kb/s and back again.. over and over [11:43]  Babblefrog Ballistic: yeppers [11:43]  Diva Canto: so which one of you is working on search? [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: strange [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: oh, I wanted to bring up temp assets [11:44]  You: huh, so it is [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: specifically, the purging thereof [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone is working on search currently are they? [11:44]  You: Diva: I don't think anybody here is currently doing anything on search [11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: I dont think so at present [11:44]  Diva Canto: ok, cool, just wanted to make sure I don't step on anyone's foot :-) [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: might be something thats thought about in the next release [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: .6 [11:45] You: diva: in my opinion, it would be good if it could be done largely outside the opensim codebase [11:45] You: which would give you more freedom to just get stuff done with any language/license you like [11:45] Babblefrog Ballistic: you can mark assets as "temp" in the region server and they don't get sent to the asset server. Terrain is handles this way, but I don't think anything else is [11:45] Diva Canto: yep, that's what I think too [11:45] Charles Krinkeb: I'm a bit distracted by two meetings. [11:45] Diva Canto: the only thing that would need to be dome here are two things: [11:46] Diva Canto: (1) the data representations and the sims [11:46] Teravus Ousley: parhaps some kind of packet that we can send the client to use a cached version? [11:46] Teravus Ousley: instead of requesting a new one? [11:46] Teravus Ousley: (with the textures) [11:46] Diva Canto: (a) the open search facility, which we now host at metaversink.com, but we'll be happy to pass it on to you [11:46] Diva Canto: sirry that was (b) :-) [11:47]  Babblefrog Ballistic: textures: if it has a cached one, I don't think it should ever ask for another one, unless I misunderstand how things work [11:47]  You: babblefrog: yeah, that's true [11:47]  Hiro Protagonist: wrt temp assets, I think my concern is to see them be truly temp, and purged from existence period regardless of grid/standalone mode [11:47]  Teravus Ousley: you'd think... but it is appearing to ask for them over and over again. [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: yea thats really odd [11:47]  Hiro Protagonist: *periodically, sorry :) [11:47] You: hiro: yueah, you're talking about never passing them up to the asset server [11:47] You: ping [11:47] You: is there some way to specify that currently in the client? [11:47] Babblefrog Ballistic: what should be temp? that's the question. [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: that, or being able to pass on to the asset server that they may be safely discarded [11:48] You: diva: yeah, I think it's going to be a long process - I think you'll need considerable persistence unless somewhere is really taken with it (dalien sounded quite keen?)_ [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: well, BF, for instance, textures that are supplied via URL [11:48] You: sorry s/somewhere/someone [11:49] You: arse [11:49] You: diva: though I'm happy to help somewhat - I'm constrained by the fact that IBM doesn't allow me to incorporate 3rd party code into opensim [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: LoL [11:49] You: chat lagging [11:49] Babblefrog Ballistic: you should be able to flag them as temp when you load them, and they will never get to the db, though they stay in the asset cache indefinitely [11:49] Neas Bade: any of the 3Di guys around? [11:49] You: babble: oh, there's somethign int he client? [11:49] Charles Krinkeb: Chi was here. [11:49] Neas Bade: I just noticed a press release by them on open source voice [11:50] You: babbleforg: can't see anything obvious [11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: no, I was thinking in the region. Are URL assets loaded directly by the client? [11:50] Diva Canto: Justin: I don't think we need to incorporate much code, almost nothing really [11:50] You: diva: hmm, sounds good [11:50] Hiro Protagonist: They would seem to be from looking at the logs [11:50] Diva Canto: from what I understand OpenSim already has the ability to generate XML representation of the things inside, right? [11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: And do they get sent to the region, then? [11:50] You: diva: yes [11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Diva, Yes [11:51] You: babblefrog: I think so, then the region passes them on to the asset server [11:51] Babblefrog Ballistic: why the heck would they do that? :-) [11:51] Diva Canto: so, that should be pretty straightforward. The server just needs to respond to requests to send those xml files to whoever asks [11:51]  You: if you're talking about vanilla client upload... (I might have the wrong end of the stick) [11:52]  Babblefrog Ballistic: I may be completely confused... [11:52]  Diva Canto: There's some issues we should have in mind about access controls, ,security, privacy, and that stuff; I'm not sure exactly what it's being spit out, but I'm sure that can be worked out [11:52]  Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 30% CPU, 768MByte VIRT [11:52]  You: diva: permissions are largely unimplemented at the moment (in terms of opensim native perms) [11:53]  You: charles: yeah, asset cache is low, so it's definitely not that [11:53]  Diva Canto: ok, so we can start with that -- no permission. They can be added later [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: crashed again [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: anyone have chat logs enabled? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i dont [11:53] You: diva: persumably you need t the location of objects in regions? [11:53] Diva Canto: but essentially, all a search engine needs is to be able to get those XML files [11:53] Diva Canto: yes, locations would be good [11:53] Babblefrog Ballistic: I'm still not sure what permissions we should implement. Are we thinking of replicating the LL permissions? [11:54] Teravus Ousley: nope we're still missing a packet that allows for the chats to be logged [11:54] Diva Canto: I would hope you would do better than LL's permissions [11:54] You: well, I guess we're a little constrained by the client atm [11:54] Teravus Ousley: disabling physics again. looks like thigns are starting to get out of controll possibly [11:54] You: untl other clients come along it will be difficult to do anything different with perms...? [11:54] You: teravus: you can disable physics on the fly? [11:54] Teravus Ousley: I'm disabling physics to see if they start to get under control [11:54] Teravus Ousley: yes [11:54] Diva Canto: so is there any way that I can ask a grid to give me the names of the sims in it? [11:54] Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 25% CPU, 905MByte VIRT [11:54] Teravus Ousley: physics is disabled [11:55] Diva Canto: (I tried with libsecondlife here, but it didn't work) [11:55] You: teravus: cool [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: Diva: http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/list_regions.php [11:55] Charles Krinkeb: OSGrid can read the regions table and present it at http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/sims.php now, Diva. [11:55] Teravus Ousley: are we getting any better on memory, Charles? [11:55] You: I suspect Diva wants an automated method? [11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: what is the CPU used for this server ? [11:55] You: 917mb [11:55] Diva Canto: yes, automated would be much better [11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: 386DX40 ? ;) [11:56] Diva Canto: and not just the regions but, in the case I grab XML files, I need to know the server names [11:56]  Teravus Ousley: ok, alas. was an idea [11:56]  Diva Canto: I'd like something like this: tagus.ics.uci.edu:9000/tagus.xml -- or something to that effect [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: man crash party 2008 [11:56]  You: Diva: well, I think most region communication is udp to clients atm (apart from caps) [11:57]  You: Please someone shout me down if I'm talking out of my arse [11:57]  Diva Canto: ok, I can write a little client to do that. I still need the names of the servers to contact, though [11:57]  Babblefrog Ballistic: and the interregions stuff which is dotnet remoting [11:57]  You: Diva: so exposing the xml will require an open port on the servers for some kind of rest like request, I iomagine [11:58]  Babblefrog Ballistic: Can we add a rest server to the existing http service on the regions? [11:58] Diva Canto: have yo uguys thought of sticking an HTTP server along with the opensim server? [11:58] Lawson English: UDP is 95^ of all packet types and 99% + of all packets [11:58] You: well, there already are http servers running for things [11:58] Diva Canto: that would be really handy! that way, the sims can serve images too, which are nice to show in search results [11:59] Diva Canto: all done by the individual sims, no need to put that at the grid [11:59] Lawson English: careful you don't get into the trap LL is currently in where sims do too much [11:59] You: sometimes sims are people's boxes sitting in their garage [11:59] You: connected over a DSL :) [11:59]  Diva Canto: yes -- like mine, for example. not im my garage, but here in my office :-) [11:59] Lawson English: even so, design-wise, might be better to factor it off to the side [12:00] Babblefrog Ballistic: this should be small, just serving up whatever data the search server needs to index [12:00] Hiro Protagonist: that's me :) [12:00]  Babblefrog Ballistic: one xml file [12:00]  Charles Krinkeb: 11 avatars, 28% CPU, 1015MByte VIRT [12:00]  Hiro Protagonist: (box, garage, DSL lmao) [12:00]  Diva Canto: yep -- an xml file for the indexing is a great start [12:00]  Diva Canto: them, the images for the search results would be nice too. but we can talk about that later if you are concerned about performance [12:01]  Diva Canto: *then [12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: time for me to grab some lunch :) [12:01] Hiro Protagonist: see y'all soon [12:01] You: bye hiro [12:01] Teravus Ousley: take care man [12:01] Diva Canto: bye [12:01] Hiro Protagonist waves [12:01] You: we're up to 1100mb I see [12:02] Teravus Ousley: paging territory [12:02] You: just pushed up to 1139mb even with the log off :) [12:02]  Charles Krinkeb: Me. Too. I need to go. Its great that we can support as many as we did. It is unfortunate we seem to be up against memory limits. [12:02]  You: 1181mb [12:02]  You: I'm going to stand here until ewverything go boom [12:02]  Teravus Ousley: it seems to curve faster as it gets worse [12:02]  Babblefrog Ballistic: I need to go too. nice talking to everybody. [12:02]  Charles Krinkeb: Diva. Try to take some time and walk around the plaza here and see a) hall of scripts and b) video booths. [12:02]  You: 1197mb [12:03]  MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok but what is the proc ? ;) [12:03] You: bye babblefrog [12:03] Diva Canto: same here. I'll try the IRC later to continue this conversation about search. I think it can happen very quickly, with a little help on your side :-) [12:03] You: 1209mb [12:03]  Diva Canto: it'd be very cool! [12:03]  Charles Krinkeb: Bye [12:03]  You: Diva: hmm, I think actually there's quite a few complications in the way [12:03]  Diva Canto: yes justin? tell me [12:03]  You: it's something which really needs to be kicked around on sldev imo [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: wow its almost like we are making a microsoft product [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i know how we can fix it [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: make 8 gig memory requirement [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: baam [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: prolem solved [12:04]  You: nebadon heh [12:04]  You: diva: well, I think it's getting something which is solid and can be used by anybody who wants to come along an implement a search server [12:04]  You: which always takes time to nail down [12:04]  You: but then, some other dev may come along and hack something up quickly to make me look silly :) [12:05] You: it;'s happened before (more than once) [12:05] Neas Bade: it would be nice to get the search bar in the client to come back to us [12:05]  Diva Canto: ok, I understand. We've been doing SL search fr several months, so I know a lot about what it takes to make one. But I think this needs to be discussed amongst yourselves. So that's cool. [12:06] You: Diva: oh I'm sure you're correct on the search front, it's just the interface that concerns me [12:06]  Diva Canto: yeah, I know. It should be pretty solid there [12:06] Diva Canto: and make a coherent story with lots of other things [12:07] Neas Bade: honestly, I'm not sure that we actually need a seperate database for search [12:07] You: but to be honest, unless a dev is really intetested, I don't think all that much will happen unless you push it [12:07]  Neas Bade: though I should get in on the thread [12:07] You: lots of other things to fix (such as this memory issue) [12:07] Diva Canto: How can I push it without being "pushy" ? :-) [12:07] Neas Bade: pulling in lucene (or another Open Source search engine) based on object metadata probably will work pretty well enough [12:07]  You: diva: heh good question - patches are always good ;) [12:08] Diva Canto: ok, I'll start lookign at your code for generating XML [12:08] You: 1221mb, but we seem to bhave stablizied somewhat [12:08] Teravus Ousley: well frame time is getting longer? [12:08] You: diva: you're going to be frightened I think [12:08] Diva Canto: is it that ugly, hey ? :-) [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:08]  You: ugly duckling [12:08]  Teravus Ousley: well consider that the simulator is running slower then it should be right now [12:08]  Teravus Ousley: .. maximum frame time should be 100ms *total* [12:09]  Teravus Ousley: otherwise we're doing too much [12:09]  You: Teravus: I see what you mean [12:09]  You: that pesky (Other) time again [12:09]  Diva Canto: ok, I'll take a look at the ugly duckling, and see how frithened I get [12:09]  Teravus Ousley: 100 ms is how much time in between frames at 10 frames per second [12:10]  You: 1279mb [12:10]  You: rate of increase has slowed but still increasing [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: oh btw incase everyone doesnt know, i fixed the forgot password form on http://www.osgrid.org [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe seeing More Wrights name reminded me [12:11]  Neas Bade: heh [12:11]  Diva Canto: ok, nice to meet your avatars in person! [12:11] You: nice to meet you Diva [12:11] Diva Canto: ttyl! [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: later [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: check out the usage of the OSL over by the video screens too [12:12] You: 1298mb [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: using the Dynamic Texture load [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that bounce is wierd [12:15] You: did anybody get the chat log before the interregnum? [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i crashed about 5 times [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i got nohin [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: nothin [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting to turn on chat logs [12:16] You: ah,I forgot to save it when I relogged when charles rebooted the region server [12:16] Teravus Ousley: no, we still have not implemented the packet that turns chat logging ability on.