Chat log from the meeting on 2018-07-03

Summary: - Ubit announced the release of OpenSimulator 0.9.0.1 - the post-fixes - development continues in a branch called httptests for now - Throttles vs. heavy mesh avatars - the new viewer option FSEnforceStrictObjectCheck is causing invisible meshes due to faulty parameters during the upload of those meshes - abandoned projects on forge.opensimulator.org - prims vs. meshes [11:04] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: What happened to that other bench? [11:04] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: what bench ? [11:05] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: the line of orange and blue seats to the right of my avatar [11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is still there, Eldovar. [11:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i see it [11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i do see it [11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and can sit on it [11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: rez thingies :) [11:06] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ok, maybe I didn't wait long enough :) [11:06] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: sorry [11:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: plaza is a bit  slow [11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sometimes things take a while to rez here. [11:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: running the latest release [11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Welcome to the OS developer meeting, Cristoph. [11:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well latest release of opensim in 0.9.0.1 [11:08] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: hi andrew [11:08] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Arielle, the French would disagree with the "same language" [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You put out a new release since I last checked, Ubit? ;) [11:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: just purists [11:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: no just typo :) [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe, I realized that. [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Even the person who made the release has trouble getting the version number right. :) [11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but yes it does more or less match this osgrid release [11:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: shh [11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: nah just that person keyboard :) [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That would be the main news for this week for those who didn't already know. Ubit released 0.9.0.1 this past week. [11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Ubit assured  me  this is the post fixes release  too [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Links to the files are on the front of the main page of opensimulator.org [11:10] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it is basicly a fixes release so the tiny inc on version number [11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: exception to that is the bullet suport to raycasts and the mutesmodule [11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but i did not want those to force a Release Candidate cycle alone [11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The new release doesn't include those features? [11:12] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it does.. i mean they are the things not exactly bug fixes on it [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, ok. You could have included a mention of them in the release note. [11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i did :) [11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. Last time I saw the release note it was a one liner. [11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yes but since you had not time to improve it i did [11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :) [11:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you recommend  this release? [11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well i made it... guess you need ask that someone else :p [11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc my answer is yes, of course [11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well no as  you are the  one  who made  the release :) [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, I wouldn't have remembered the mutelist module inclusion or the change to raycasts. [11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: my ao wont  work here  even after  taking  it off  and  putting back on [11:16] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: if i knew major issues i whould had delayed it until a fix [11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what do you consider  major? [11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: opensim.exe    KUBUMMMM [11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :p [11:17] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: scripts disabled here? [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe [11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: lol [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: TG.Lucan, yes they are disabled here. [11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: we  should  move to a  region where stuff  works [11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we are just guests here [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: pfft [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i am sure there is plenty of places  that would allow  full access  to the region  this meeting  takes place in [11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i may put a snapshot of 0.9.1-Dev bin online, not sure [11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i mean on site to dwonload.. [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: good idea  if  you want some teesting  done on it [11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ( well ok i know its confusing  being on a region that says 0.91Dev and talking about another 0.91Dev lol [11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not  really  but  ok :) [11:22] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: You mentioned that you had changed (httptests) HttpServer_OpenSim but not the available sources? If true will the source be made available? [11:22] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Ubit [11:23] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: sources are at opensim-libs [11:23] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: k [11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: actually the source missing on that is the version in use on master [11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: the one there is the httptests one [11:24] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: kk [11:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why work  on a branch you can't  make  into a master  anyway? [11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: again that question ? [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i haven't heard  an answer [11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it will be master [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: its been asked and answered several times, IIRC. [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: a year from now? [11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: with luck yes [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: isnt that what you said a copuple meetings ago? [11:26] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yes and most like will boo on telling the same [11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc imediate solution [11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: no [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the .9.0.1 release has  issues [11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we do not have another machine [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so there will be no fixes for it for over a year ? [11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i said that? [11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, just use the httptests branch. [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you said this was  the post  fixes [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not an RC version [11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i had the idea we where talking about 0.9.1Dev [11:29] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: that will require a full release cycle [11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: so another 0.9.0.X may still be released [11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: httptests will be  .9.2 [11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ? [11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or .9.1 [11:31] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: idea for not is 0.91.. lets see what time tells [11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but well this is kinda academic.. no one really cares [11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the ones  on  the  .9.0.1 release  will [11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: reading g+ anything is just better than 0.9x [11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: so why bother.. [11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: whatever [11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well you been told  what the issues  were [11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yeah really ... those issues on g+? [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: are you referring to a  specific  one? [11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: in fact most of them... [11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: recently there is only one i want to look in detail if possible [11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but like always no mantis report .. nothing [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: too often mantisses are  either  ignored  or closed  without resolutions [11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you know about  the  slow  loading  avatar  meshes  in busier  areas [11:37] Ubit Umarov: that had got answers more than once [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: your answer  but  no soluion [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so people go to  a solution  offered  by others [11:37] Ubit Umarov: stop making nonsense huge avatar meshes is a answer [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: A mantis should not be closed without some form of resolution. The message supplied when it is closed should tell you why the report was closed. [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have a complexity  of  46k [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: takes me 5 minutes  to rezz  to myself\ [11:38] Ubit Umarov: she his looking to some other mantis.. [11:39] Ubit Umarov: we only close things that are very old and outdated, even not all of those [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, right but the message provided when it is being closed would say as much. [11:39] Ubit Umarov: or very simple and really "fixed" [11:40] Ubit Umarov: but its typical g+ post also.. its cool to say Core ignores mantis :p [11:40] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: brb .. RL interrupt [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Are you having the avatar rezzing problem in all grids you visit or just some? [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: osgrid [11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: most other grids  can  fix  it outside  of  releases [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: osgrid is stuck  with  master [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: go to an event plaza  when it is  busy  Andrew and you will understand [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or lbsa plaza  even [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: If other grids have fixed the problem it would be nice if they were to provide the fix so it can be included in the main code. [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they have [11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Ubit has  it [11:42] Ubit Umarov: "fix" is Arielle word [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I don't think I'd see the problem you are having as I don't use a mesh based avatar. [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but you  will see the issue  on anyone who does  Andrew [11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: avatar meshes  are throttled  in master  so  it  takes  ages  for them to  load  to a viewer [11:43] Ubit Umarov: the same way you see that issue at SL and made the lindens actually kill the damm things with the Jelly thing [11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have mine set to no limit [11:44] Ubit Umarov: that is the wrong answer [11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: to you maybe [11:45] Ubit Umarov: they added that to mk sure you do get the good ones in reasonable time [11:45] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there has  been  plenty of testing  of  unthrottled   meshes   with no issues  seen [11:45] Ubit Umarov: and send to trash the damm bad ones [11:46] Ubit Umarov: removing the limit is not a fix, is ignoring the problem [11:46] Ubit Umarov: here or sl [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i rezz much faster  in any  s/l  region then  i see  avatars  rezz in lbsa [11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and the  modified  code  rezzes  even  faster then s/l [11:47] Ubit Umarov: are you comparing the amount of internet infrastructure linden labs has to the osgrid one? [11:47] Ubit Umarov: get serius.. [11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: when a viewer  is  set  to a  limit of  1500, the  network  has little to do wwith it [11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: anyone  with a 2 MB download  speed  should  have no issue [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll throw out this question/comment. If the mesh download throttle is causing a problem what is the throttle limit? Does it need some fine tuning? [11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeah on servers that to not have that per user and also need to send higher priority data, or a avatar will not pass cloud stage [11:50] Ubit Umarov: etc etc [11:50] Ubit Umarov: bahh [11:51] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: dont see those  issues  anywhere  but on .8.2 [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: 0.8.2? [11:51] Ubit Umarov: textures are meshes are part of data with lowest priority [11:51] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what are you  trying to save? The server or the user? [11:51] Ubit Umarov: both [11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the user crashes  now  because  of the slowness [11:52] Ubit Umarov: BS [11:52] Ubit Umarov: a user does not crash because what others see [11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or stands there  for  20 minutes waiting  for the  other  avatars to rezz [11:53] Ubit Umarov: take that g+ talk to g+ [11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'd really like to know what amount of data there is in a mesh-avatar ... [11:53] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: less then on some prim hairs [11:54] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: my concern is that  new people  will see  this  as  a reflection of the  quality of  opensim [11:55] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they come to osgrid  and see  how  long  it  takes  to rezz  and  never come  back [11:56] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: what is the g+ channel called? [11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prob here  is that most  in attendance  have  no idea  what i am talking  about  because  the  issue  was not  on .8.2  nor  even early versions  of  .9.0\ [11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you will mostly see in  area  where there are  5-10+ mesh  avatars [11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: https://plus.google.com/communities/116284417302234467612 [11:57] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: thks [11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats the one he  likely  means  but there  are  other places  too [11:58] Ubit Umarov: well any issues ( other than this? :p ) [11:58] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have seen that one, has a kind of commercial agenda, don't remember seeing tech discussions [11:58] Ubit Umarov: any of you had the chance to see/test the 0.9.0.1 bin pack ? [11:59] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Only test httptests and dev/master [12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: this is  another  where there  is  more  techtalk  TG https://plus.google.com/communities/100189142861137606972 [12:01] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: well, a completely unrelated question: there were once a number of mostly obsolete or abandoned projects on forge.opensimulator.org. i remember Melanie moved some of them ... Are they still available somewhere? [12:01] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: k [12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: :) [12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i remember her  mentioning  she  was  going to upload  them   when she  found  them [12:02] Ubit Umarov: no idea :( [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, Are there any projects in particular you are thinking about? [12:03] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: nope, but when you start a new project, i find it interesting to see what others have been done in the past [12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there were  some  interesting  ones  on it [12:04] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: just to learn [12:04] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they are sort of  community property.... [12:05] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: maybe i should ask on the mailing list if someone made a copy... [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Cristoph, good idea but you may get asked the same question about which module(s) you are looking for. [12:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: should not matter  Andrew [12:07] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: some of  those  projects  could still be relevant  for  those  on .8.2 [12:07] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: actually, i don't know, a list of what has been there would be nice ... i am mainly interested in work that has been done for xmpp modules and in the area of scripting [12:07] Ubit Umarov: the new FS option FSEnforceStrictObjectCheck is causing some confusing, as expected, being set to true by default [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, only if someone saved all of them. Otherwise, you can check the web archive to see if a page can be found listing what used to be available. [12:08] Ubit Umarov: that will make some prims invisible. [12:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: melanie....a core  dev....said  she has  them on her  hardrive [12:08] Ubit Umarov: prims that in past viewers did allowed to create with bad parameters [12:09] Ubit Umarov: that never the less did work fine [12:09] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: ok thanks, i will try to ask her [12:09] Ubit Umarov: so better set that option to false [12:09] Ubit Umarov: that includes some meshes uploaded with 0.9.0.0 [12:10] Ubit Umarov: it does have a bug that will that the mesh base prim with parameters fs now does not like [12:10] Ubit Umarov: should be ok now on 0.9.0.1 [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: A list of projects that used to be on forge can be seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20160617142438/http://forge.opensimulator.org:80/ [12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: doesnt FS  have a  compatibility checkbox  somewhere  to allow  seeing  prims  of .001 dimension? [12:11] Ubit Umarov: FS devs are not suicidal ppl [12:11] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: ahh web.archive, i didn't think about that ... i will see what i find there :-) [12:11] Ubit Umarov: ( well most the time :p ) [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, FS has a search feature for its settings. If it has such a setting a search should help you find it. [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, many of the projects were marked legacy as they were no longer in development or had not been updated in a long time. [12:13] Ubit Umarov: that option does prevent some prims to reach the rendering engine, even if they currently don't cause issues ( so we can disable it ) [12:14] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: yes i know, the code may still be interesting [12:14] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: i am aware that i can't use them as they are [12:14] Ubit Umarov: guess in future a improved rendering engine will have issues.. so the option now.. but just guessing ) [12:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: improved would be  more  fault  tolerant [12:15] Ubit Umarov: NO [12:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: :) [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, the webarchive is unlikely to have the actual files. You may have to do other searches to see if the code is available elsewhere. [12:16] Ubit Umarov: fault detection is that option! [12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: bloody mesh wannabe purists [12:16] Ubit Umarov: what mesh? [12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the  ones  trashed  or invisible   because  of  a setting [12:17] Ubit Umarov: about that option? i said prims not mesh..  those may have more checks.. [12:17] Ubit Umarov: but it is PRIMS [12:17] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: Andrew, yeah, but now i could ask for example specifically for the "JabberIMProxy" [12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prims  are  mesh arent they? [12:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap another g+ statement prims are meshes [12:18] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: anyway, a lot of it may be lost [12:18] Ubit Umarov: NO THEY ARE NOT [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, true. [12:18] Ubit Umarov: they are converted into meshs before the rendering stage, after those checks [12:20] Ubit Umarov: prims are decriptions of a object that contain parameters that can be decoded to generate a meshs for GPUs [12:21] Ubit Umarov: or pointers to a sculpt map, or mesh asset that can also be decoded to produce a mesh [12:21] Ubit Umarov: they are not meshes [12:21] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you could  ask  Dahlia  about that  one Chris [12:22] Ubit Umarov: ( have more data also like textures color materials pointers etc ) [12:22] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: thanks Arielle [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what does the  decoding  Ubit? [12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prims to Mesh? [12:24] Ubit Umarov: viewers [12:24] Ubit Umarov: and physics engines for if the prim does not match a geo primitive they know ( like a true sphere) [12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok Ubit [12:26] Ubit Umarov: but they are a very compact representation that alone without sculpt maps or meshs can represent a lot of chapes [12:26] Ubit Umarov: as we seen before meshes on scultp maps.. and still see [12:27] Ubit Umarov: on == or [12:27] Ubit Umarov: credits to LL on that, well the prims we know.. others use similar ideas also [12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: read they could  be  made  even more  complex