Chat log from the meeting on 2008-08-05

[11:11] Park Bench: started

[11:12] You: Hello everybodeh

[11:12] Johanna Hyacinth: Hello

[11:12] Homer Horwitz: Hi again

[11:12] Warin Cascabel: Hello again...

[11:13] Kurt Stringer is Online

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: I think we will probably be a bit informal today.

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks

[11:13] Torrance Miles: hello

[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: Morning, Justin.

[11:13] Digi Fly: hello

[11:13] Warin Cascabel: Hi

[11:13] You: the region is spewing exceptions to the console like mad

[11:13] Homer Horwitz: Hi

[11:13] Kurt Stringer: Re-Hi

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: uh oh

[11:13] You: Hey Justin, gratsies man

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi is Online

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yo Hiro, Homer, Kurt, Nebadon, Warin, Digi, Charles, Torrance

[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: new gig for Justincc

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yo dahlia, warin, joanna

[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: hi jcc :)

[11:14] Homer Horwitz waves.

[11:14] Johanna Hyacinth: Hi, Justin :)

[11:14] Charles Krinkeb: Do you want to tell us anything about your new gig, Justin? Or should we segue into OpenSim issues?

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, new job, new laptop (new appearance finally)

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: eventually

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going to be working as Lead Developer for the Black Dress Technology subsidiary of the Fashion Resarch Insittute

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: for Shenlei, in other words

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: using OpenSim as part of an open source platform for their apparel design enterprise solution

[11:15] Charles Krinkeb: Does that mean dress, purses, undergarments, shoes, or what, may I ask?

[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: becoming a fashion designer?

[11:16] Homer Horwitz grins

[11:16] Johanna Hyacinth: Neat!

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: pretty much all of those, I think

[11:16] You: Neb reports the region is unreachable

[11:16] You: he cant get logged in

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I never imagined I would end up working in fashion

[11:16] Charles Krinkeb: Let me segue into something that has been mentioned to me recently that might affect FRI a little bit.

[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: I didnt know Shenlei was that serious

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, pretty serious :)

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi is Offline

[11:17] Dahlia Trimble: nice to see :)

[11:17] Charles Krinkeb: The subject is SQLite to MySQL migration of sim datastores which I suspect might affect some fashion designers who work on their laptops.

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: looks like a user server issue on the console

[11:17] sacha Magne: Charles, mysql works fine on laptop

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi is Online

[11:17] Charles Krinkeb: And away we go with with exceptions again.

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I see it's spewing like crazy

[11:18] You: my face just turned lime green rofl

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: migration should now be possible using load-oar/save-oar

[11:18] Homer Horwitz: Mysql works nice nearly everywhere, but SQLite is far smaller nevertheless

[11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I saw a bunch that mentioned libsecondlife

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: for the local region datastore, at least

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi is Offline

[11:18] Charles Krinkeb: I think the issue is that some sims have started with SQLite and it has been suggested that we need a good way to get existing sim prims. primshapes, land and the rest to MySQL

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: use save-oar/load-oar

[11:19] Homer Horwitz: Does that include terrain-settings?

[11:19] Homer Horwitz: (textures, land-values, and so on)

[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: I did it with load/save xml2 but it didnt take scripts

[11:19] Charles Krinkeb: I am told that save-oar/load-oar have problems relating to setting the ownership of everything to the master avatar.

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: homer: it includes terrain, but not currently estate settings

[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: or terrain

[11:19] Homer Horwitz: No parcels either?

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yep, load-oar/save-oar takes all the assets required as well as the raw shape data

[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: I only bring it up as I think it partly, but not completely works based on what others are telling me.

[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: cool I'll have to try it

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yes, it is still experimental so needs bug reports

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: anything would be helpful - I'm most driven when I know accurately what people need

[11:21] Charles Krinkeb: Thats good, and my next subject. I want to exhort all us users and testers to add Mantis relating to SQLite->MySql migration, save-oar/load-oar, save-xml2/load-xml2 and backup restore to help development.

[11:21] You: hmmm, what I'm seeing justin is that some sculpts seem to work and others not

[11:21] You: I thought you were aware of that though

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: don't assume I'm aware of anything :)

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: any data is good

[11:22] You: oh it was more gossip than assumption *winks*

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, mantises are the most convenient format

[11:22] Charles Krinkeb: Lets help Justin and the other developers out by adding notes to existing Mantis, duplicating tests between Windows & Linux and between dotnet and xengine.

[11:22] You: but I'll file a mantis

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: also making the actual archive available would be helpful if possible

[11:22] Charles Krinkeb: Confirming between Windows and Linux would help also.

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: then I can just try a direct load on my own systems

[11:22] You: I can do that

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yep, all good stuff

[11:23] Charles Krinkeb: Justin. Can I suggest the OpenSim.db on Wright Plaza??

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: excellent suggestion

[11:23] Charles Krinkeb: It is the oldest OpenSim datastore in existence.

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that would be a real challenge

[11:23] Charles Krinkeb: And you can scp it at your leisure.

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: I may well try that myself at a quiet period

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yep, excellent suggestion - I shall put that on my agend

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: agenda

[11:23] Charles Krinkeb: Also, there are a whole bunch of backups in ~/ named OpenSim.db.wright.mmdd

[11:24] Kurt Stringer fondly remembers quiet periods...

[11:24] Charles Krinkeb: Feel free to work with any of them.

[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: I wouldnt mind having a clone of WP for meshing testing sometime

[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect an archive of wp will be pretty damn big

[11:24] Charles Krinkeb: Feel, free, Dahlia. You also have console privilege and that includes copies of any of the files on the server.

[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: ty :)

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: do we know what license the content of wp is under? Is it republishable?

[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: I wouldnt redistribute it

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: finally

[11:25] Charles Krinkeb: Its 9 MBytes in size. i would suggest that we dont re-distribute but use it as an engineering test for software development.

[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: welcome nebadon

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: okay

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know what aspect of it is 9mb? is that the save-xml file?

[11:26] Charles Krinkeb: The SQLite datastore, OpenSim.db is 9MByte

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: okay

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: the archive will be much much bigger of course, since it will contain all the asset data

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it's funny, the user server looks okay and yet the region keeps timing out on trying to contact it

[11:27] Charles Krinkeb: There are some OpenSim.db in ~/ that are 54MByte, and some that are 9MByte. A more recent one reflects reality a bit better, methinks.

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: sigh

[11:28] Charles Krinkeb: All the assets are grid assets, so these OpenSim.db files are the SQLite data of the region which includes the prims, primshapes, land, estate stuff.

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it looks like the viewer effect problem from last week has been solved

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: at least

[11:29] Charles Krinkeb: What is the biggest issue from the developers viewpoint that the testers can help with?

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: jeez i keep getting tossed around

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: whats up with that

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline

[11:29] Charles Krinkeb: You must be full of "Hot Air".

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: wow chat lag too

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: some of that i said a few miunutes ago

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: atleast on my screen

[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: anyone tried llSetForce or llAxes2Rot yet?

[11:30] Warin Cascabel: Not recently, but I will

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: dang inventory is hosed also for me

[11:30] You: I was not aware that llSetForce had been implemented

[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: I implemented it last week sometime

[11:30] Charles Krinkeb: Is eveyone comfortable with both dotnet and xengine? Are their differences creating any angst?

[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: or 2 weeks ago

[11:31] Warin Cascabel: Is there a Web page showing all the recent changes, for those of us who miss it in the IRC channel?

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i havent tested xengine in a month

[11:31] You: I've only been waiting for that for months now lol

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: SVN log

[11:32] Charles Krinkeb: The recent changes are on the wiki, that is, the last 10 SVN log changes. Beyond that, tortoiseSVN can describe all 5752 revisions.

[11:32] You: I have no problems reading commit logs

[11:32] Charles Krinkeb: Isnt there a cia site tha will show differences?

[11:32] You: except I have lots better things to be doing most of the time

[11:32] Charles Krinkeb: ??

[11:32] Kurt Stringer: Charles, stay tuned on the SE merge to Shared...

[11:32] Charles Krinkeb: Are there things that used to work but are now broken??

[11:33] You: Nice prim hair Joanna :D

[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: No problem, Kurt.

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey hopes the mention of enterprise doesn't sned everyone to sleep

[11:33] Charles Krinkeb: Question: "What is broken now that used to work??"

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: seems like inventory is a big issue for people still

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: lots of people saying no inventory

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: from what i hear

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: after a sim sits for some time

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: your no longer able to access your inventory

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: and the sim has to be restarted to be able to access your inventory again

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: how recent is this?

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: today

[11:35] You: yeah the 'secure inventory' patches that went in reduced inventory reliability by a considerable factor

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right now as we speak

[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: Good point. "How can we create some more non-ambiguous tests for inventory functionality and reliability?"

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: has it been happening before today?

[11:35] You: yes

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: since all these security cahnges

[11:35] You: it isn't really the sim I think either

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I did make some small changes which shouldn't have affected things but you never know

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: everythings been horrible

[11:35] You: for instance, my inventory is presently working

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: to be frank

[11:35] Dahlia Trimble is Offline

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: might be worth changing the default to non-seucre pending more testing

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: and ask the secure to be tested until we know it's stable

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: have you tried changing to non-secure?

[11:36] You: the problem is, the region configuration has to match the UGAIM configuration

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: no

[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: +1, Justin. That has been bothering me for two weeks, but I didnt want to make a big deal of the 3di changes.

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the grid is the end that needs to change

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: things can't be changed from the region server end

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea but alot of people have it forced in their opensim.ini

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: because they were told thats why it wasnt working

[11:37] You: is there not a corresponding region configuration point?

[11:37] You: exactly

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, that will just stop them working altogether....

[11:37] You: we dont manage the regions

[11:37] You: if we change the grid, a lot of regions break

[11:38] Chris D: There was apatch that allowed grid secure to ignore the region secure

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: have we heard of problems from other grids?

[11:38] Charles Krinkeb: Our #opensim is in a bit of chaos with more opinions then knowledge right now. This is not a criticism of anyone here, just expressing some angst.

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: heh no

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: the other grids rarely contribute anything

[11:38] You: what about a patch to have the region ignore grid secure though?

[11:38] Chris D: Therfore you could turn off secure inventory on the grid

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: going to have to look at the console spew as well

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Chris D: yes, it is turnable offable though the switch is undocumented

[11:39] Charles Krinkeb: Justin. Can we modify one or more sims to serve as a testbed for some of your FRI ideas? I would eagerly volunteer one or more of mine.

[11:39] Chris D: If the grid is secure then the regions have to be secure

[11:39] You: that's the whole problem ChrisD

[11:39] You: security isnt really working right

[11:39] You: the grid is configured for securioty

[11:40] Charles Krinkeb: I would also say that I would vote to change grid configuration to allow Justin and others to focus on problems more easily.

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: Thanks, I will definitely bear that in mind. At the moment I still need to finish up at IBM before I can get my feet properly under the table

[11:40] You: if we reverse that, all those who have it forced will break what little works for them

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: Should we change the default, or document the existing switch properly?

[11:40] Charles Krinkeb: Hiro. I don think the secure inventory stuff works right.

[11:40] You: I *know* it doesnt

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yea either way 80% of the people are screwed

[11:40] Chris D: Yes, you just turn off grid ecure inventory and it will ignore the rgein settings. Both secure and non secure regions will still work

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so whats it matter

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:40] You: I feel like I'm shouting into a gale here

[11:41] Charles Krinkeb: Then, lets just turn it off. how do we do that?

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i can do it

[11:41] You: ChrisD: that's good. that was my concern

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: after the meeting

[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: so do all the regions need to be reconfigured?

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: no

[11:41] Chris D: Sorry, I should have been clearer in the first place :)

[11:41] You: not according to Chris

[11:41] Charles Krinkeb: If there is a substantila change, that tells us something. If there is no substantial change, that also tells us something.

[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: restarted?

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i recall the patch chriss is talking about now

[11:42] Charles Krinkeb: And, we are talking about the UGAIM configuration, right?

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:42] You: yep

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i will change asset server

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and restart it when meeting concludes

[11:42] Charles Krinkeb: Justin. Is this what you had in mind??

[11:42] Digi Fly: helps turn grid security off, the asset loading from inventory ?

[11:42] Homer Horwitz: He was thrown out again.

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: aah

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea we are going to disable secure assets for now

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: 1st as a test

[11:43] Homer Horwitz: Ah, and back again :)

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: man, this is really peeing me off

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: then perhaps we'll keep it off if it is better

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and work towards fixing it

[11:43] Charles Krinkeb: My opinion is that catering to Justin in our grid configuration will help us move more *better*.

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: we 1st need to determine wether or not it truly is secure assets

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: so step one is turn it off

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm minded to switch the default to non-secure....

[11:43] Charles Krinkeb: Exactly. If no change, we know it is not secure assets.

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: well, maybe that is too hasty

[11:44] Digi Fly: yes

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: how about if I properly document the turn off switch, and then we try turning it off on osgrid?

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: And see if that improves things?

[11:44] Charles Krinkeb: So, we learn something either way, methinks. ??? Hrmm ??? Justin.

[11:44] TARDIS Wiki-Lith whispers: Without A Doubt.

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its easy to disable

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: just change the asset server xml

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and restart it

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: whalla

[11:44] Charles Krinkeb: That would be awesome. Justin, we want to cater to your thoughts to allow logic to prevail.

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: no need to provice me with docs

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: provide

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think the switch will be in the inventory configuration ;)

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: sure, if you're happy to go ahead then no problem

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[11:45] Charles Krinkeb: My selfish motivation is that if we help you focus with OSGrid a little bit, then we get some additional benefit as you slide into FRI.

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: though I will document anyway

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i knew it was one of the two

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: heh, the self-interest ploy, I like it

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: definatly docs are good

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly one of our big concerns is going to be stability

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and reliability

[11:45] Homer Horwitz: Don't forget performance.

[11:46] Homer Horwitz: Inv takes *ages* to load at the moment

[11:46] Charles Krinkeb: Is that Ok, with you Nebadon and Hiro? We selfishly cater to Justin in hopes of gaining some attention as he slides into FRI?

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: to some extent, though it's actually probably less of a concern for us directly....

[11:46] Homer Horwitz nods

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but as a simple core OpenSim developer it's still an issue for me ;)

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but the immediate issue of this damn console spew and user server contacting problems is getting to me too

[11:47] Homer Horwitz grins

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure that can't be helping with the client disconnects

[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Dahlia. For your tests, you need someone to test the llRot2Axes and llSetForce stuff, methinks. Are there other tests that would help you?

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: not sure, just would like to know if people have used them

[11:47] Charles Krinkeb: I underestand, Justin. I'm trying to dance fast and quick to help us get stability again.

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: okay

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: I'v done a lot of testing myself

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: oh man

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: script engine is freaking now

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: this is the same problem i get on Zaius Plaza

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I see it

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: looks liek the event execution queue has been exceeded again

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: yea i get this on Zaius now

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: last week

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: you're running lots of scripts?

[11:48] Homer Horwitz: Nice thing such a load test. With, erm, 13 users?

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: about 125

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i would say no

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: thats miniscule

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the thing is, we were happily accomodating 30 not too long ago

[11:48] Charles Krinkeb: not a whole lot.

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: in the grand scheme

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: so we seem to be going backwards a bit

[11:49] Homer Horwitz: Sounds like it :)

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: but then the script issues are quite possibly unrelated to avatar numbers

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: there are still unimplemented areas of physics that may make llSetForce look strange when you try to stop things, but it's not a problem with llSetForce

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: script issue occurs on Zaius Plaza

[11:49] Charles Krinkeb: It should clear itself up after we leave. i think one of our issues is we are not handling multiple logins on the same sim as elegantly as we would like.

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: with just me standing in it

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that issue is almost certainly still around too :-(

[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: looks to me like an event queue is overflowing

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm beginning to think that starting to make the investment in more programmatic tests is going to be worthwhile

[11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Ok, pulling back a step, we need to find a way to get more objective data for Mantis observations other then "its broke"

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: too many events and not enough cpu to support them?

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I would suggest starting a mantis thread, even with not very goo dinfo, and people adding to it

[11:50] Charles Krinkeb: dual-core, 2GByte RAM, 125 scripts, 4000 prims.

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: how's the load?

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: inventory performance has been terrible

[11:51] Charles Krinkeb: Almost 200%

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ouch

[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: lol that could mean something

[11:51] Kurt Stringer: Not a new or critical problem, but the ghost av issue is getting really irritating (#510), we could really use some more data on this problem

[11:51] Digi Fly: wow

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and see if things improve

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: all the time

[11:52] Homer Horwitz: At least one instance is easy to reproduce (added it to #510)

[11:52] Warin Cascabel: I dunno, at least the ghosts let me see who's been visiting. :)

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: homer: oh cool

[11:52] Dahlia Trimble: seems events might need to be throttled? I think the Linden scripting engine can lose events too

[11:52] Charles Krinkeb: I would suggest we can help by adding observations to any Mantis. The mere act of adding a confirming observation, puts the Mantis on the top of the list.

[11:52] Chris D: The ghost issues also occurr in OGP testing ang Zha is looking into it

[11:52] Kurt Stringer: yeah, it is pretty easy to reproduce, but hard to debug...

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: oh excelent, more eyes the better

[11:52] Homer Horwitz: Right Kurt

[11:53] Kurt Stringer: yes,

[11:53] Charles Krinkeb: Turning this around: "What are the things the users and testers need help from the developers on in the next week?"

[11:53] You: sdague told me he had a lead on the ghosting problem

[11:53] You: that he intended to investigate it on return from holiday

[11:53] Dahlia Trimble: the ogp ghosting problem?

[11:54] You: he also said its related to a certain class of lost connections with the inv server

[11:54] You: the opensim ghosting problem

[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: the 128/128/70 problem?

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ok i set the inventory server xml to (session_lookup="False")

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: after the meeting i'll restart it

[11:54] Kurt Stringer: it happens on standalone multi region as well as grid

[11:54] Homer Horwitz: That one, Dahlia, right.

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: cool

[11:54] You: in my estimation, the ogp test is not being run under controlled enough circumstances at present to produce valid results

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I think if that does identify an issue then lulurun will be happy to take a look at it

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool

[11:55] Dahlia Trimble: the ogp test has a lot of PR associated with it

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: we'll give it 24 hours to soak in

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: then let you know

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: perhaps a bit longer?

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe 72 hours?

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: sounds good

[11:55] You: dahlia: "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." -- Feynman

[11:55] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:56] Homer Horwitz: Thanks for the reference, I'll use that in my job ;)

[11:56] Charles Krinkeb: Can I suggest until Saturday morning and we re-evalute then?

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: sounds good

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: chances are we'll keep it on for a while

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: if it helps

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: no reason we cant keep updating with info throughout

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: if it helps then I think we should switch the default unless lulurun can identify a problem quicly

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: id like to hear from everyone myself

[11:56] Charles Krinkeb: Certainly, sounds like a good plan.

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: there experienes over the next few days with inventory

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble is neutral on the secure inventory thing

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: security is nice

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it doesnt hinder stability

[11:57] Homer Horwitz: Yes, but only if it works.

[11:57] You: yup+1

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: performance i could handle

[11:57] You: scurity is good

[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yes, it definitely needs to be there... but we need some serious thought as to how we do it

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: if it affected performance

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but stability is important

[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a pretty fundamental architectural thing

[11:57] You: but only if it functions as designed

[11:58] Charles Krinkeb: I'm kinda negative on it as it is not a secure inventory so much as an architectural change that appears to be causing instability.

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i think of the problems really

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: is any delays

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and OpenSIM barfs

[11:58] Charles Krinkeb: I dont really think the name reflects what is happening. But, I have to admit that is an opinion and not fact.

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: this secure inventory causes delays

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and i think thats where the problem is

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its probably nothing wrong with their code

[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: I really haven't kept up with it

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but opensim doesnt handle delays well at all

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it did at first

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: it used to be that every inventory request needed a user server request

[11:59] Charles Krinkeb: That could be. The testing they did does not consider the real-life load and use case.

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: to check that you were logged in

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: even milisecond delays can be fatal in opensim

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: but lulurun changed that so things would be cached, which should have alleviated any issues in that area....

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[11:59] You: maybe its a simple bug they've yet to chase down

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: tahts why i dont think its so much that code

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: the inventory problems could even be something related to the user server issues (and possibly something esle) I'm seeing constantly on the console

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: but more a opensim issue in general

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: that probably plagues lots of areas

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not just this

[12:00] You: we could really stand to improve our concurrency on the grid services

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: are you seeing strain in that area?

[12:00] You: oh yes

[12:00] You: always and forever

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: as more people add regions to osgrid we are going to see problems in that central chokepoint....

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: yea the servers seem fairly stable

[12:01] Charles Krinkeb: I would settle for seeing the number of open Mantisi start decreasing instead of increasing.

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but i still restart them daily

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: the grid servers

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: I think continuing to write down observations would be very useful for developers

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: atleast now on the new server

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i can do it without anyone noticeing

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its so fast

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: to get some idea of the evolution o fhte state of the nation

[12:01] You: yeah Neb, and another beneift is we can stop suspecting the server as a source of issues

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: another thing to note

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: one suggestion I would also like to make

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: with the majority of the other well known grids

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: the big players

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: they are pure windows environments

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: OpenLife, Tribal and Central Grid

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: are all windows

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: no linux

[12:02] Homer Horwitz: How strange.

[12:02] You: interesting

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I've seen hints that OpenLife are extending OpenSim themselves?

[12:03] You: what suggestion was that Justin?

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: sort of

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: just randomly poking around on their message boards

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: if you can call merging parts of Rex into OpenSIM "their own" work

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: then yea

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think openlife has come up with any improvments or anything like that

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: mostly its making a quazi mixed version of opensim + rex

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounded like some server extensions or something for stability

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: yea hard to say

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if they never republish we're not really going to know much about it

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: thye are using MSSQL too

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: personally if their source isnt open

[12:04] Charles Krinkeb: Any other things that need to be brought up to the developers?

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: which i dont think it is

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: im not interested in what they do

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem interested in sharing what they do

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not with us anyway

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I do find that very disappointing

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: its like a ghost party here

[12:06] Charles Krinkeb: Ok, anything else for the developers?

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: everyones clouds of gas

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: funny

[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, my view of people when they actually have any clothes is okay

[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: though I haven't cleared my cache for some time

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea i cant get any inventory at all

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect thats why

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I think things are going to be a little slow in Auguest now...

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i just see everyone as ball of gas

[12:07] Homer Horwitz: 5 smokies, 2 grays and the rest is ok

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: as most people go on holiday

[12:07] Charles Krinkeb: Justin. You are a cloud in my scene. Also Nebadon, Angelo and Warin.

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: August is gonna be slow month for opensim

[12:07] Warin Cascabel: I see about half glowing clouds, a quarter grey, a quarter clothed... and I'm ruthed.

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: back to school should liven things up though

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea i do see myself ruthed

[12:08] Charles Krinkeb: Ok. I declare the offical meeting over. Informal rumors can get started now.

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hey

[12:08] Warin Cascabel: Ha. :)

[12:08] Homer Horwitz grins

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: can someone do me a favor

[12:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: who didnt crash

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and pastebin the entire chat log

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: from the begining

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: if you have it

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i can update website

[12:08] Homer Horwitz: Wow, who didn't crash?

[12:08] You: I have it, one sec

[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, could you guys do me a favour?

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: wel

[12:08] Charles Krinkeb: I have the last 57 minutes.

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: as much as you can

[12:08] Digi Fly: what about version 0.5.8 ?

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: great

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i have about 1/2 the meeting

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: if that

[12:09] Kurt Stringer: JustinCC - what?

[12:09] Homer Horwitz: Gone again?

[12:09] Digi Fly: wich on ?

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yea i think we lost him

[12:09] Kurt Stringer: lol

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: his gas dispersed

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline

[12:10] Warin Cascabel: He wanted to know whether the console spew goes away after wp is restarted.

[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[12:10] Digi Fly: so where the escape pods ?

[12:11] Homer Horwitz: I'll hop out too. See you...

[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline

[12:11] Charles Krinkeb: Where is the chat log page on the wiki? I cannot seem to find it.

[12:12] Kurt Stringer: bye all

[12:12] Kurt Stringer is Offline

[12:12] Charles Krinkeb: found it