Chat log from the meeting on 2014-06-17

[10:59] Hippo Finesmith: ewwwwwwwwwww [10:59] Shez Oyen: Didn't see the little plastic round thingie [10:59] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [10:59] Connected [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:00] Hippo Finesmith: hi Justin [11:00] Shez Oyen: Hi Justin [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:01] Sarah Kline: hi [11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: nice 0.8 is out then i can install that on my new system [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah [11:02] Alicia Raven: hello :) [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, 0.8 is now out [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: and dev has already just moved on with Alicia's bullet patch ;) [11:03] Alicia Raven: will be nice to fly over the curb next to roads now lol [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: What do the bullet patches fix? [11:03] Alicia Raven: just a push up so u dont skim the floor when flying [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, patch isn't in dev yet - just testing here I think, neb? [11:03]  Alicia Raven: will push up over terrain aswell when flying into land [11:04] Hippo Finesmith: sounds good [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: so, any opensim issues to discuss today? [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: summer is coming on, people are going outside I think :) [11:05]  Mata Hari: speaking which, walking in here today I had trouble walking over the round world carpet [11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have a family member over today as they couldn't be here on Father's Day. [11:05]  Mata Hari: and it's maybe 0.01m thick [11:05]  Hippo Finesmith: i was wondering how hard it would be to implement a weather system in os or if its even feasable ? [11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hi hippo [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing here really [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: hippo: weather system in what sense? [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: just a heads up I think Diva is going to pick up with Melanies merges where Misterblue left off [11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hippo, A lot of weather systems are particle based. Lightening uses hidden textures that get momentarily seen. [11:06]  Hippo Finesmith: as in make it rain without having to script something [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: so that is some good news [11:06] Hippo Finesmith: or snow for example [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: just use particles [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: things always have to be scriped in some sense. A region module might be easier for complex behaviour though [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: it would be very difficult to incorporate something into the viewer [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: as none of us here are viewer devs really [11:07] Hippo Finesmith: yeah thinking about it, it would probably require a modified viewer [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: well, depends how sophisticated it needs to be [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: also its impossible to stop particles from penetrating prims [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: thats really the biggest obstacle to making a proper weather system [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of heavy work [11:08] Mata Hari shudders to think of all the alpha glitching it would cause too [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: really a shame yes [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be interesting to have particles that were more physical and could be stopped by objects or bounce off them. [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: you can bounce them off of the terrain i think [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: just not prims [11:09] Mata Hari: a related thing that would be nice, though, is to be able to change windlight setting via script and have any viewer pick up that change [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, right [11:09] Hippo Finesmith: yes i agree [11:09] Mata Hari: currently that doesn't trigger an update on most viewers [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: could that just be an opensim bug? [11:10] Mata Hari: not sure [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: does it happen on the ll grid? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: scripted windlight? [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, hm... they will bounce off the plane the emitter is in. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: there is no scripted windlight in SL [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: is there? [11:10] Mata Hari: don't think so....not certain [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think there is [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: on another note, you got your inventory issues sorted out mata? [11:11] Mata Hari: but there is the ability here to change it via script [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: opensim had it for a while with lightshare [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Mata, I've run across a case of a scripted device that can affect windlight settings. [11:11] Mata Hari: with lightshare, yes [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but no viewers support lightshare anymore I dont think [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: oh? [11:11] Mata Hari: no, just one and it's dead [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not just more or less ientical to windlight? [11:11] Mata Hari: but that would be a very, very nice thing to have [11:11] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: I'm pretty sure FS still has a setting for it [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the original creators of lightshare were impossible to work with [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: meta7 people [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks will have to find the windlight script (if he has a copy) or find the person who did have it. [11:12] Mata Hari: it won't detect a change via script....if you leave the region and return you'll see it but not if you're in the region [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that could possibly be a bug [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: does that same thing happen in SL? [11:12] Mata Hari: so the change is stored but there's never a message sent to the client viewers saying "new setting....change to it" [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: or is it immediate for everyone in SL? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not easy to test that [11:13] Mata Hari: I've never tied that in SL [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you own a region [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: parcel owners cant set that [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: need to be estate owner or manager [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: not sure but i think i have seen trhe same probnlem in sl. but tried it long time ago [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: i talk about parcel windlight [11:13] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: I liked LightShare because it could work at the parcel level. [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, If I could get a script I could test it in SL. I know people who own a region there and I have perms on the land. [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: there is no parcel windlight [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its not a script [11:13] Mata Hari: FS supports parcel windlight [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its in the Estate Panel [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: there is in soem viewers [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: there is no windlight scripting in SL that I am aware of [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: oh interesting [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: you can put a special line in about land description [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but does SL support it? [11:14] Mata Hari: yes [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: do parcel level windlight get stored? [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: its not official [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought there was windlight scripting in OSs though. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: oh interesting is that new? [11:14] Mata Hari: a year or two [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: no. not sure if every viewer is supporting it [11:15]  Sarah Kline: you can also set at different heights on the parcel [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: so LL didnt officially do this? [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix:parcelwl [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was against the TPV TOS to implement things without LL permission, and without LL doing it first [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: Really? Then how are viewers able to do var regions, etc/ [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: it where implemented beforr that [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: LL doesnt have Var [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: so it would not change the SL experience [11:15] Mata Hari: no idea.....I'm sure they would hav freaked out at FS if it was an issue [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: or is that the mechanism where they make use of LL stuff to implement things LL doesn't want (like encrypted IM)? [11:16] Mata Hari: and FS would have pulled it [11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: justin, SL dont support var. so thats no problem [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: anything that changes the SL experience is forbidden without LLs permission and also they have to implement it first before TPVs introduce it to the public [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't that why some viewers have separate versions? One for SL and one for non-SL? [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: couldn't one argue they also dont' supported scriptable windlight? [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: huh, ok [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I think chiefly because of Havok licensing, but the split tends to pull in other stuff too [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: they dont care about things that change the opensim experience going into the viewer as long as it doesnt effect what you see or experience inside of SL [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: :) [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: so they can turn on scriptable wl just for os ;) [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:17] Mata Hari: if it's there [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: the reason for asking whether this stuff happen sin SL is that if it does already, it means there is already a viewer implementation for doing it [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya however, if LL were to implement it after the fact [11:17] Hippo Finesmith: i smell a plan coming on lol [11:17] Mata Hari: and if the region/parcel sends a "windlight changed" notice [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: that could cause problems because LL tends to do things very differently than us [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it isn't, then it probably requires viewr-side work [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes [11:18] Mata Hari: in some respects there must be a viewer inmplementation [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, to actually change anythig nin the first place [11:19] Mata Hari: if you change windlight settings at a region level using yur viewer then it will update [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: if there's a missing part it's some inbound udp mesasge to tell the viewer to to trigger a change or something liek that [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: but does that change other people's viewers? presumably not [11:19] Mata Hari: and everyone in the region sees that change [11:19] Mata Hari: yes it does [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: oh really? [11:19] Sarah Kline: yes [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, then there's very likely a useable mechanism [11:19] Mata Hari: if region owner changes windlight everyone sees it [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: even for parcel level? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: in SL [11:19]  Mata Hari: it works here too, alreadu [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: then it's more likely one could implement change via script server-side [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i wonder how they are storing and delivering that info if LL doesnt officially support it [11:20]  Sarah Kline: there's a popup option to accept setting or it can be auto like media [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: uh, so what are we arguing about? :) [11:20] Mata Hari: being able to change it via script [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: right [11:20]  Sarah Kline: it goes in the parcel info area [11:20]  Mata Hari: at present only estate owner can make a chenage "live" [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: we actually already have the OSSL scripting for lightshare too [11:20]  Mata Hari: or estate managers too I guess [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: so those could probably be adapted or replaced [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, so lightshare used different UDP message? [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: we should probably drop support for lightshare at some point [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: if and when its replaced [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:22]  TBG Renfold: I don't think lightshare works properly with pgsql anyway, think there's a mantis I forgot to drop on that subject [11:22]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: aslong aswl can do anything ls can, sure [11:22] Mata Hari: that would definitely be nice to have, anyway....as a 0.9 project :p [11:23] Mata Hari: won't give you snow or rain but would be a step in that direction [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: on another topic, you got your inventory issue fixed? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya it would be cool [11:24] Mata Hari: nope [11:24] Mata Hari: still infinite fetch loops all the time at non-plaza [11:24] Mata Hari: roughly 1/4 of all logins [11:24] TBG Renfold: anyone seen the black dragon (think that's it) that has god rays? not able to try myself, but that does look cool [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey wonders what a god ray is [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: then we could do cool stuff like this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wep9WTDm9w [11:25] Hippo Finesmith: ^ [11:25] Mata Hari: nicer than a devil ray? [11:25] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          b59812b: 2014-06-16 22:20:30 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:26] TBG Renfold: the rays of the sun through trees etc [11:26] Alicia Raven: that would be nice, need a good gpu tho [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya opengl is not so great at doing stuff like that in realtime [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: and still auto-play is working when you have auto-play disabled :( [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: even just shadows clobber my 780GTX [11:28]  TBG Renfold: yeah, thats the problem, there are alot of people out there who are not hardcore gamers that just dont go and buy good gpu's unless it's really needed [11:28]  Mata Hari: grats on the official 0.8 release Justin & Co [11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm gald to finally get it done [11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: i wish SLK / opensim would run more smooth with everything enabled [11:28]  paulie Flomar: Grrrrrr...appearance issues. :( MY alpha mask isnt rendering properly. :( [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: good gpu dont help [11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: now just the usual slightly nervous period that some release breaking regression doesn't pop up [11:28]  TBG Renfold: the nvidia I'm currently using became obsolete a few months back :) [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks couldn't sit through more than the 1st minute of the 7 minute long windlight demo. [11:28] paulie Flomar: GOnan clear cache / relog. [11:28] Hippo Finesmith: is there a page documenting the 0.8 changes? [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: and i have GF670 [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol Andrew, i made that one day when i was bored [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: google for opensim 0.8 release notes [11:29] Arielle Popstar: were the mega region issues fixed? [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I know what you mean. I had problems with 0.7.6 when it first came out. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. At this point, anything really bad can always be fixed in a 0.8.0.1 [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: but hopefully that won't be necessary [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, we've had rc's for a while now and people have been using them successfully [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried testing 076 before deploying it but still didn't discover the issues until I let users in to have at it. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I think this release has had the longest RC period so far :) [11:31]  Mata Hari: do you know how many actually d/l it? [11:31]  Mata Hari: (the rc's) [11:31]  TBG Renfold: Is opensim still at rc2 (being lazy not looking) because I noticed the RC3 tag being pushed to the master [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't been monitoring numbers [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: no its been release [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: no more RC [11:31]  TBG Renfold: lol [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: TBG: That was me pushing the tag I forgot to apply previously [11:32]  TBG Renfold: agree with you Neb, been bit of a drag this year. [11:32]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:32]  TBG Renfold: not that I am blaming anyone, just the way it goes. [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: you mean slow going? [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: really its been pretty normal from my perspective [11:32]  TBG Renfold: yeah [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: it will never go fast enough [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:33] TBG Renfold: true [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: this release does incorporate some major stuff, like bullet and varregions [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and from my experience slow and stead always wins the race [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: but that also meant more testing and regressio nfixing than normal which took time [11:33] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: And Melanie's half finished merge. [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: those who tend to think they can do better and faster on their own, only burn their wings when they fly to high [11:33] Alicia Raven: firestorm need to fix the map for var regions, i posted bug reports on that to them [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: Yeah, the point of a release is to try and having something more stable for ppl to use that don't want to risk the bleeding edge [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: shaun: yes, took quite a lot of time to fix those issues [11:34] paulie Flomar: Does anyone know where to post Kitely Bug reports? [11:34] TBG Renfold: ohh yeah, don't get me wrong, I appreciate seeing something to pull from the master [11:34] Shez Oyen: Varregions was a huge leap (to me) [11:34] TBG Renfold: and know that core dev do have a life to lead [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: paulie, ask orenh on IRC when you see him [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, few of us get paid to work on this stuff ;) [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: he is one of the lead engineers at Kitely [11:35]  paulie Flomar: neb: thx :) [11:35] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: You know, she made a big dealout of giving that region crossing stuff to Core. Might be nice if we actually got it. :) [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: and even then, it's pay to work on ppl's immediate issues, not necesssarily core stuff that benefits everyone [11:35]  Arielle Popstar: R. Adams will not be doing any more patches that Diva is taking over? [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Shaun [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to happen soon [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva is taking over [11:35]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Oh? [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue seemed not interested anymore I guess got overwhelmed by the work [11:35]  Mata Hari: don't know Shaun.....if it's as bugged as part 1 was maybe it's better we not get it [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and Melanie has been in the hospital for some time [11:36]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: She was just saying in email that region crossing stuff doesn't interest her - co-something did instead. [11:36]  Shez Oyen: burn out seems to be part of a natural progression [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but Diva said she is going to pick it up and get it done here soon [11:36] paulie Flomar: Mels in hospital? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: shes been in and out yes [11:36] Arielle Popstar: i ran into Ubit on s/l the other day [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know exactly what for [11:36] paulie Flomar: :( [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I also dont' want to merge in someone else's work if they can't help [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but shes been ill [11:36]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: I knew Melanie had been ill earlier this year. I was not aware she was in the hospital. [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but yes, Diva and Melanie have a good working relationship [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: I already had to do it for one merge and that was a pita [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva will get the job done [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:36]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Yes, they do. [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there are different relationships in the team [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: we're not a single corporate entity [11:37]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Okay, I'll shut my yap then. :) [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so ya some good news there [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: everyone just hang in there good stuff is coming [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: would have happened sooner if it wasnt for this release [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: there is always going to be delays, just have to stay patient :) [11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: so diva is out of the books again ? [11:38]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: for the summer [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: yes book is done [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: available for purchase at Amazon :) [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: book? [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: oh really. You have a link? [11:38] Shez Oyen: title? [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: althuogh I thik it's not to do with virtual worlds iirc :) [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: http://www.amazon.com/Exercises-Programming-Style-Cristina-Videira/dp/1482227371/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403030337&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=excersizes+in+programming+styles [11:39]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: So what kind of good things are coming, Nebadon? [11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: Um... I think I should be rejoining the family soon. There is something going on where I should be in attendance. [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: oh well vehicle border crossing stuff etc.. [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: Melanie has tons of improvements [11:39]  Shez Oyen: hoooooray!!! [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that once this merge is done should bring a floodgate of improvements [11:39]  Shez Oyen: ::happy dance:: [11:39]  Arielle Popstar: wont it require merging mel's version of ode? [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: no [11:40]  Alicia Raven: sounds like christmas eve hehe [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: diva's book: http://www.amazon.com/Exercises-Programming-Style-Cristina-Videira/dp/1482227371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1403030395&sr=1-1&keywords=cristina+lopes [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: once the big merge is done then bulletsim can finish up [11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: as long as it doesn't hold up other development unnecessarily then that's fine [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think it will, but its hard to predict stuff like that, but I know Diva has limited time [11:40] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: This is what branches are for ... [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so I dont think she intends on keeping this open ended [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: use a new branch for the merge testing ? [11:40] Mata Hari: would be nice if it got some preliminary testing before commit too.... [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, doesn't help if ppl refuse to use them [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be a lightning strike when it happens [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I honestly don't like the sound of that [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: big patches make it very hard to peer review changes [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: well have a chat with Diva [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: she can fill you in better [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont want to speak for her [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it will be one big patch [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i just mean she is going to move fast when it happens [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think diva likes big patches either [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: last time it was one big patch and that made for a load of difficult bugs to fix [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: and regressions [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:42]  Arielle Popstar: so mel's merges were not completed in january"? [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: correct [11:42]  Mata Hari: they're still not completed [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue had started it, and then because Melanie had her medical issues, she didnt have time to commit to it [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: and I think Misterblue just got overwhelmed on his own [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: but melanie and diva are much closer and mesh better as a team for sure [11:43]  Arielle Popstar: is Mel allowing merges right up to where avination is currently? [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: I don't know all the details [11:43]  Arielle Popstar: nod [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: what is merged is up to the ppl involved. As loing as it doesn't unnecessarily hold up proper open-source development then that's fine by me. [11:45]  Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:45]  Arielle Popstar: just strikes me that so much of it must be interrelated [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: well the problem is Avination and Core code have merged considerably [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: but I don't really like this kidn of merge - it brings in a bunch of code that was developed out of the public eye and the usual peer review [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie wants to get back to having Avination be very near what core code is [11:46]  Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, the merge should get close to that., [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and thats what Diva is going to help her do, then once that happens the other patches can flow into core much more easilly [11:46] Arielle Popstar: is avination gone over to bullet too? [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: A bunch of stuff needs to be merged in to Avination then that will allow Avination stuff to be merged in to OS. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so Arielle [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but I think that may be a possibility in the future [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie has expressed interest in that in the past [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and Andrew yes [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: that is the goal [11:48] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:48] Arielle Popstar: sounds like potentially messy business for a bit [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:48] Mata Hari: *shudders* [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: it can't be like last time [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: well I trust in Divas ability [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: having the master broken for such a length of time was a huge pita [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya I do not expect that will be the case honestly [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: We can certainly discuss that when the time comes, she should probably be around today [11:49] Juicy Babii: no shortage of testers, counting everybody here :-/ [11:49] Arielle Popstar: any eta for when Mel will be out of hospital? [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: I think shes been in and out [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: well, today is hair for me but I'm sure the subject will come up sometime [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: If you will excuse me, I better get going and rejoin the family. See you all next week. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: I don't know exactly what she is going through, I just know shes been quite ill of late [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I'm sure Diva isn't just going to merge in huge unrelated blocks in single commits [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: bye andrew [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks waves [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:50] Arielle Popstar: tc Andrew [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: no I dont think so, and I think initially most of the work is being done ont he Avination side [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the poiint is to bring Avination up to near core first [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: bye Andrew [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: then push stuff from avination into core [11:51] Razor.Laser @infinity8.org:8002: bye Andrew [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: so I think the plan is to push most of the pain to avination [11:51] Sarah Kline: we get the new script engine too? [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: unlikely [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: Avinations script engine is not suitable for core [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its mono only [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: does it rely on mono hacks? [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I beleive so [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: script engine is a really intersting area, which hopefully will get some good work one day [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we can probably borrow good stuff from Aurora [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: however thats not always easy [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's a hard problem to fairly partition out processing power to all those scripts but avoid a bad impact on the sim [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but it is my understanding that the Aurora engine is better than ours [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but I cant quantify that with facts [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: they always say that :) [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: and maybe it's true, no idea [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant say for sure either [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: just what I hear [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is true that xengine hasn't had too much serious work, apart from some of the stuff I did on co-op termination [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: which needs to become default really [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: from what i have heard though [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: Aurora xengine supports microthreading [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but I could be wrong about that [11:53]  Alicia Raven: i came from aurora and havnt noticed much difference myself [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: microthread is just a fancy name for co-operative multi-tasking afaik [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds about right heh [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: for things like timers though that is important [11:54]  Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: and sleeps [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:54] TBG Renfold: I tested a port of the display names module about a year ago, not too much difference, script engine maybe a different story [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: atm, it's too easy for scripts to cause problems [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: TBG: there's a port of display names to opensim? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: indeed [11:55] TBG Renfold: I done a proof of concept on my own grid when I had it running [11:56] TBG Renfold: for my own satisfaction test really (ego) [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya script engine is a complicated beast [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: biggest problem is finding a cross platform solution for threadng [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: something that works equally as well on .net and mono [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I do wonder if an interpreted solution might work better [11:56] Mata Hari: a hammer might..... [11:56] Hippo Finesmith: lol [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: both have their own different ways of handling threading [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: transform script code into an internal bytecode ;) [11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: lol, that dont repair a broken window mata [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I don't think that it's a simple area for sure [11:57]  TBG Renfold: there were a few methods I had to convert over, but they really were not so much of a problem [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: well like i said I think aurora has it [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: but also a reasonably self-contained challenge which I'm sure must have been solved by other projects [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: thats probably the only big difference between aurora and opensim engines [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: when I have some of that mythical free time I will take a look :) [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: angelscript, but that's c++ [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and while its not obvious the improvements I am sure there are some [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: I think the bigggest improvment would be sleeps not hogging whole threads [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and timers beingmore accurate [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hm [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: llSleep sucks in opensim [11:59] TBG Renfold: Thread.Sleep sucks anyway lol [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: you get 20 or 30 scripts doing 10 second sleep [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and forget it [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: if i use sleep i stay below 1.1 sec [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think one really wants to just save the stack and free up the thread rather than sleeping it [12:00]  Sarah Kline: did we have to use a timer hack for a vehicle script once because of no microthreads? [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: from what I understand SL uses "Yield Injection" for multitasking which seems might be possible to do at compile time [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm not sure exactly how one woujld pause execution in an arbitrary place without taking a different approach such as interpreting scripts [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: hi pauli [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess 'microthread' is what one would call such a solution (or co-operative multi-tasking/yielding :) [12:01] paulie Flomar: Howdeh, RR. :) [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: I kinda thought "microthreading" was like coroutines [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ya multiple processes sharing same thread? [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: well the threadpool allows multiple *uses* of the same thread [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: one at a time [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i mean i remember years ago in SL seeing casino regions running 15,000 scripts [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: almost flawlessly [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: your operating system already shares processes amongst cores [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: even higher I recall seeing regions near 20k scripts [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: their server is written in C++ where I think you have more latitude [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: comapred to running on top of a VM [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and these were casinos [12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: uhmm, not sure if SL then already where using microthreading [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: must have been tons fo timers and sleeps [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: unless you start doing super-messy stuff like hacking that vm... [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: random number generators out the wazoo [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: one at a time may not be so bad. From what I understand, an entire SL sim runs on one core [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: thats been a design goal [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: whichi s much better than we can do [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: opensim runs badly on a single core in my experience [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: well it wasnt a design goal for us [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh, "design goal" [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: LL wants 24 simulators on 1 box [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: justin 1 core for opensim, dont mean the OS runs on the same core [12:05] TBG Renfold: I would say dule core minimum for the specs of OS [12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, everything has to run on the same core if you only have one [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: when you have 30k physical servers [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, dual core is the realistic min I have found [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: squeezing blood from stones becomes more prudent [12:05] TBG Renfold: unless dedicated [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: im sure LL is probably more in the 4000-5000 server range now though [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: if you have the discipline for single core programming it's also a lot simpler and less buggy [12:06] TBG Renfold: I squeeze blood from stones [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: when you starting having more than one thread flying about, complexity increases dramatically along with race condition bugs [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: but on the other hand, processors aren't getting faster but cores are increasing, so making better use of cores is ultimately a good thing [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: not getting much faster I mean [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: or not so quickly as previously [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully graphene changes that soon :) [12:07]  TBG Renfold: yeah [12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: well a bunch of cores all spinning on locks may not be better than a single core [12:07]  TBG Renfold: sooner the better [12:08]  TBG Renfold: It's like waiting for blu-ray all over again. 10 years later :( [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:08] Mata Hari looks at stack of 8-tracks [12:08] Juicy Babii: at least the clear winner in the format wars betweeen Blu-Ray and HD-DVD has been decided: streaming video. :P [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: dont wait. Just use opensim as it is and you wont be disappointed by delays :) [12:09] TBG Renfold: ummm, my wife's currently clearing out the VHS if that makes you feel any better ;) [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: going todo that, when i have the energy to finsih the server and enough to start building [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to get something to eat [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the conversation, folks [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: bye jcc [12:09] Arielle Popstar: waves [12:10] TBG Renfold: bye Justin [12:10] Hippo Finesmith: tc jcc [12:10] Dahlia Trimble: I'm going too. bye all :) [12:10] Shez Oyen: bb [12:10]  Mata Hari: bye Justin [12:10]  Razor.Laser @infinity8.org:8002: cuya Justic [12:10]  Hippo Finesmith: bb Dahlia [12:10]  Razor.Laser @infinity8.org:8002: Justin* [12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:10]  Mata Hari: and Dahlia