Chat log from the meeting on 2009-11-24

[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi hiro

[10:59] Warin Cascabel is Online

[11:00] Hiro Protagonist: Hoedeh

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello all

[11:00] Kally Rakan: hi all

[11:00] Penny Lane: How's everybody doing today?

[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi adella

[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[11:01] Penny Lane: Hi Richardus :-)

[11:01] Penny Lane: 'Lo Neb

[11:01] Samantha Fuller: Still strugling with enventory problems

[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: hi neb

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of problems?

[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: well there will be laways some inventory struggling :O

[11:01] Samantha Fuller: I

[11:02] Samantha Fuller: is lbsa down

[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks

[11:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello

[11:03] Yea- ti: hallo

[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin

[11:03] Penny Lane: Hiya JCC

[11:04] Hiro Protagonist: 'sup y'all

[11:04] Penny Lane: Hi Hiro

[11:04] Hiro Protagonist: dont mind me if I'm not immediately responsive, my brother is here with me looking on

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon gone for a pee?

[11:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: Justin, quick question.. if i save my entire inventory as one IAR, is it possible to cherry pick bits from that one IAR, or do I have to load it all?

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: im here

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: sorry was checking the other servers

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: we had some plazas down

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: at the moment you have to load it all

[11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: kk, if i load it all, will it overwrite existing inventory, or create duplicates?

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: it will craete duplicates

[11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: okies, thanks :)

[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: that explains my login problem first time

[11:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: im glad i asked first hehe

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle; any feedback will be appreciated - it's still an evolving facility

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: heh, there is wiki (and blog) documentation if you google

[11:07] Lafe Baxton: I finally got the SL viewer to connect! W00T

[11:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: i saved my entire inventory a couple of days ado, and am just loading it onto my tester alt now

[11:07] Nalani Moleno: meinst du nicht dass dann inworld shlechter geht?

[11:07] Samantha Fuller: I had a inventory failure sunday, yesterday it showed up off and on as a second set of top level folders with reduced functionality

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: Samantha you need to contact Adam Frisby

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: i had a brief look over the wiki, but didnt see anything about loading it creating duplicates

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: he can fix it for you

[11:08] Lafe Baxton: I even have clothes on!

[11:08] Penny Lane: Lafe: if you have trouble, Imprudence 1.2-beta2 is ultra-stable here. Slow as heck, but stable :-)

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: im not really sure or i would do it myself

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: hmm, I probably assumed that. I should make it cleaer

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: clearer

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we can get you fixed up though

[11:08] Lafe Baxton: I was wondering a both the Hippo

[11:08] Lafe Baxton: it lock up a lot

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I do have one question for folks

[11:08] Fly Man: Morning everyone

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Fly Man

[11:09] Penny Lane: Hi Fly

[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi fly

[11:09] Fly Man: Been a while but back :)

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: what do people think about starting a 0.6.8 release cycle now that the landing and physical prim bugs have been fixed? I think it would be good to do one.

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: sounds good

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: things are running really well

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: better than they have in a long time

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: might as well take a picture

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, I'd like to catch that before it deteriorates again ;)

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it will probably last longer :P

[11:10] Lafe Baxton: I have Imprudance too, so it is stable?

[11:10] Samantha Fuller: recently ive have been trying to bback up the problem folders :) only copy paste of folder contents works

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: samantha: do you run your own region?

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I think the idea of a perfect and stable viewer is a myth

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: they all have issues

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSimulator is buggy and can confuse any viewer

[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: look to webbrowser and you know enough.

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if your seeing viewer lockups my 1st tendancy is too blame the simulator

[11:11] Samantha Fuller: i have it hosted Hiro hasent yet built a consol so i can do an iar

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: though its possible you also have driver issues

[11:11] Lafe Baxton: Yeah that is reallt true, but I love it here! LOL

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: samantha: ah okay, never mind then :)

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: well just so everyone knows

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: we have implemented a new system

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: say your inventory gets erased maliciously or accidently

[11:12] Penny Lane: Lafe: not crashed here yet with that one (on Linux). All others have crashed. So yeah, currently I'm marking Imprudence 1.2-beta2 as the most stable for Opensim use, on Linux.

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: we have a new system now in place to easily restore it

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunatly it came after the last incident

[11:12] Fly Man: Darn

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: so a few people have dupe folder sets

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: as we restored your data

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but, Adam has said anyone with the problem just contact him

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: he will fix you up

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i think only 20 people were effected

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so it wasnt a huge deal

[11:13] Fly Man looks around "Adam here ?"

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: no he is probably sleeping at the moment

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: he is on Australian time

[11:14] WhiteStar Magic: Adam would be in Bed now

[11:14] Fly Man: Yupz

[11:14] Fly Man: Had a Q about the My Received Items folder

[11:14] Fly Man: which number it got internally

[11:14] Samantha Fuller: I was just worried that my corrupted file system was causing grid problems, I had a simlar problem on OpenLife and my av inventory caused grid problems there

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: you mean UUID wise?

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Samantha it is not

[11:14] Fly Man: Yes, so the viewer ppl can add the icon for it

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: it will only effect you

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its Random UUID i think Fly-Man

[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: Smanatha: I will let Adam know your inventory is borked so he can get that fixed up

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: all folder UUIDS are random when they are created

[11:15] Fly Man: Hmm, then the viewer people need to dive deeper to fix that

[11:16] Hiro Protagonist: we havent gotten in a hurry about the employment of IARs yet as they are only just recently being tested thoroughly on osgrid

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: its like any other folder really

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: even the default folders are assigned random UUIDS

[11:16] Fly Man: yeah, but there's a nice icon for it now

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: when they are initially created

[11:16] Fly Man: so it's a viewer thing

[11:16] Fly Man: then the viewer ppl will need to think themselves how to get the icon right

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya i think that might operate off folder name

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and not UUID

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: everyone cant have the same UUID folder

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: or we would all be sharing the same folder

[11:17] Samantha Fuller: Np if its not causing grid problems it can wait a day or two :)

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya yor oK samantha, it will only effect you

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: but we can probably get you fixed up quick in the next 24 hours

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i could do it manually but it would take me hours

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: id like to see if adam has a more automated way he is doing it

[11:18] WhiteStar Magic: he was working on a process last night

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure how far along he is

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: its been a good 12+ hours since ive spoken to him

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: he actually said he planned on fixing everyone

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i think he knows everyone who was broken

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: so i think at this point its wiser to wait for him

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: and not mess him up

[11:19] WhiteStar Magic: There seems to be more broken then he thought at first, he found some way to check it, last I saw

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya i probably dont have the whole story yet

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully he will be around later today

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: so what else is going on? anyone have anything else they wanted to talk about today?

[11:21] WhiteStar Magic: I've been having good success testing with teh fixes that Terravvus put in

[11:21] BlueWall Slade: ++

[11:21] WhiteStar Magic: it seems to be behaving exceptionally well

[11:21] BlueWall Slade: the updates on the llSetPos are fixed for me

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: great

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i had planned on updating my sims today

[11:22] WhiteStar Magic: RAM use is very steady, no sinking and everything is smooth as silk for a change

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: doing some testing

[11:22] BlueWall Slade: yeah, landing on prims is good

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: that was some great work by teravus

[11:22] WhiteStar Magic: Heya JCC !

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hey WhiteStar

[11:23] Aaron Duffy: woohoo. landing on prims :>

[11:23] Entering god mode, level 255

[11:23] BlueWall Slade: heh, much more of that kind of work and we should run as good a BlueMars

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha ha

[11:23] WhiteStar Magic: There seems to be a slight issue with XMLRPC timing out but that may just be an isolated issue

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1:

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 1) extatique [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 2) chaos theory [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 3) Linger In Shadows by Plastic

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 4) Tension - Aenima

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 5) 720p HD: Only One Wish by Fairlight and The Black Lotus (FLT / TBL)

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 6) frameranger [demoscene] (720p HD)

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 7) ASD Rupture [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 8) masagin [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 9) 				- metamorphosis [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 10) 				- iconoclast [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 11) 				- sts-02 [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 12) 				- lifeforce [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 13) 				- stargazer [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 14) 				- elements [HD] [demoscene]

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 15) 				- Röyksopp - What Else Is There? (HD)

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 16) 				- Röyksopp - Happy Up Here (HD)

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1:

[11:23] Youtube Video Player v1.1: Enter the title number OR a youtube URL at /4

[11:24] Samantha Fuller: ive noticed some strange script problems, i have a door that works well E-W but twist oddly N-S also some partcile hoses that get twisted but when i move but strangely dont undwind when i stop twisting

[11:24] Hiro Protagonist: thats kid of interesting

[11:24] Hiro Protagonist: *kind of

[11:24] WhiteStar Magic: something unpleasant noted though too though a coupel of revs back in Trunk, Scripts are not clearing again when deleting a prim

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: there's a mantis?

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: samantha: yeah, I think there is some odd behaviour in that area

[11:25] WhiteStar Magic: I don;t think so, as it appears to be isolated ... still some more tests to do to verify it before a mantis is worthy

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: linking problems are also an issue (and have been for a long time)

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: Whitestar: cool

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: what do people think of the plan to have a new website? The wiki component will be relegated and no longer be the front page

[11:26] Fly Man YAY's

[11:26] Fly Man: Finally

[11:26] Fly Man: Took about 4 months of waiting

[11:26] WhiteStar Magic: +1 BUT what will go infront ?

[11:26] Richardus Raymaker: the opensim site. yes

[11:27] WhiteStar Magic: I been playing with several CMS systems as of late

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it will be drupal based

[11:27] Fly Man yays even more

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: adam made a call for potential contirbutors in the opensim-dev list

[11:27] Fly Man: then we can ask Melanie for advice

[11:27] WhiteStar Magic: Why not WP ?

[11:27] Penny Lane: JCC: the website will succeed or fail based on whether devs update it when they change relevant things in code. It's fail if they wash their hands of documentation and expect others to do the work.

[11:27] WhiteStar Magic: What about WP ?

[11:27] Fly Man: as she made many of plugins for Drupal

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I agree asbolutely

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: absolutely even

[11:27] BlueWall Slade: Drupal is a good one

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: adam and melanie have been handling this

[11:28] WhiteStar Magic: as long as it is NOTHING like ELGG

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: I think the devs are good at documenting

[11:28] WhiteStar Magic: chat lag... ugh

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but i think Media Wiki is a terrible way for us to be presenting it all

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: you do???!!!

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey grins

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: well maybe :)

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: media wiki ?

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: not all but most are good at starting the process

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but the thing is the search doesnt work

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: on the website

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so its 100% impossible to find anything after they wrote it

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think the process starting is the important part. The worst thing is when an existing facility changes with absolutely zero documentation

[11:29] Fly Man: hey, where have i heard that before

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: our website has zero search capability right now

[11:29] Fly Man looks a xstreet

[11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Huh

[11:29] Fly Man: at*

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah agreed - non high-traffic wikis seem to have a tendency to go that way

[11:29] Hiro Protagonist: actually. uou can get a lot of use out of the current wiki by using google to search it

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:29] Hiro Protagonist: sometimes you just have to get a little creative

[11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Why doesn't search work?

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but most people dont know that Hiro

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: cause mediawiki in general sucks

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: unless you hack it to peices

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and add on 100 things

[11:30] WhiteStar Magic: The Search has actually gotten worse recently, it's an abomination

[11:30] Fly Man: to find something on the website:

[11:30] Fly Man: Google

[11:30] Fly Man: site:osgrid.org

[11:30] Fly Man: works for me

[11:30] WhiteStar Magic: Goodgle works well in the Wiki

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya that works great

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i generall do "site://opensimulator.org/wiki "

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: on google.com

[11:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Search works fine for me on most mediawiki installs. *shrug*

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: you should get good results

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: Otaku most people replace the search

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: there are tons of search options available for media wiki

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we are currently using the Lucene one

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but i think it broke

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its never worked right though ever

[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: I've done searches on others with the default still in, seems fine.

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: man, I've never used that search - it's google all the way

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: small wikis do ok

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: large wikis tend to crap out on the search

[11:32] WhiteStar Magic: count yourself lucky then JCC

[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: the wike search. i have tried it. but the results are 70% useless

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya the wiki is pretty useless IMHO

[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: the wiki search

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: all around

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: not just the search

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: \the whole layout is less than desirable

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah.

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: confusing, too many dead ends

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: to much wrong data

[11:33] Penny Lane: I don't think the problem is *which* CMS or wiki is used, or any at all. (But good search is essential.) The problem is writing docs, and having some commitment to maintaining the site.

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: And restructuring an existing wiki is a horror

[11:33] WhiteStar Magic: I've tried to keep sections updated and running and adding info in as I have time

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: hi

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: Penny having that is no good if no one can find anything on the site

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: Wikimedia and CMS are not the answer in my opinion

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: most CMS are wretched

[11:34] Penny Lane: Yeah Neb, search is mega important.

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: including drupal

[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I think opensim wiki's search is just screwy for whatever reason it is behind the fail.

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: we are using software thats overly complicated for docmetnting

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: CMS is overkill for documentation website

[11:34] WhiteStar Magic: I'v ebeen playing with Concrete5 CMS which is pretty slick but a tad too immature yet

[11:35] WhiteStar Magic: it's really easy to use and setup but still buggy

[11:35] BlueWall Slade: Drupal has some pretty good built in modules for writing docs

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think most of the CMS are a bit that way

[11:35] Penny Lane: Are there any major re-orgs coming in the near term like happened with connectors / ROBUST? Will a docs site have time to settle down a bit?

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: Robust isnt done

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: its like 50% or less done

[11:35] Penny Lane: Ouch

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: CMS is overkill or badly suited for a lot of things but the INternet is lazy and that's the easiest way to construct a quick site. :P

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but Penny likely yess

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: refactoring is not done

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: lots more to come

[11:36] Penny Lane nods

[11:36] WhiteStar Magic: ;) Gently Elbows Otaku in teh arm

[11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: this is one of the reasons i am so pushy in terms of telling people we are not ready for production levels

[11:37] Richardus Raymaker: lol, inworld wiki is a step to far (or standalone) lol

[11:37] Penny Lane: Hard to know these things when little info tends to make it to the dev list.

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: how can anyone think we are ready for production when we are 50% through a major refactor and still in alpha is beyond me

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: people always want to push the envelope - we should be thankful for popularity :)

[11:37] Kally Rakan: people are too used to using "eternally beta" code

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: I dunno. But some people have said we shouldn't hang on to "alpha" status since I got here.

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: or relative popularity

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya true Kally

[11:38] Kally Rakan eyes google

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Nothing new

[11:38] Strawberry Fride: I would say production is a little relative depending on how pioneering you feel :)

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: realistically, two and a bit years is avery short time for a project such as this

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: I think alpha is misunderstood, though.

[11:38] Strawberry Fride: alpha means new features and breaking changes

[11:38] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Mic

[11:39] Mic Bowman: hi

[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: i cannot agree with beta atm.

[11:39] WhiteStar Magic: Hi Mic !

[11:39] Strawberry Fride: which opensim does well

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: Hello Mic

[11:39] Kally Rakan: since so-called beta code seems so reliable they think that all released code is like that

[11:39] Strawberry Fride: Hi Mic :)

[11:39] Penny Lane: You can't be alpha forever though, otherwise people will quite rightly treat you as a joke.

[11:39] Mic Bowman: now i really wish i know what the conversation was like before i got here

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: we will become beta when the code is of beta quality

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: 2 years is hardly forever

[11:39] WhiteStar Magic: SUGGESTION for new website, on First Page a Definition of ALPHA Software

[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: we digress

[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Not a lot of development uses the term alpha any more. They either go to beta way too early and pass it off as normal or they don't even announce anything till it is beta.

[11:39] BlueWall Slade: Beta would mean that the interfaces and such are settled in

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i think most people consider SL beta

[11:40] Mic Bowman: alpha lasts as long as you want it to (and i mean that in both directions)...

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: and look how well thats going

[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: as example, does the restart button already work under estate tools ?

[11:40] Mic Bowman: until there is a commitment to a "release" you'll continue to be in alpha

[11:40] Strawberry Fride: Microsoft started doing "community tech previews" as a way to bypass traditional alpha/beta/release candidate/rtm models

[11:40] Michael McLuhan: the term Feature Compete is what the industry likes now to transition from alpha to beta LOL

[11:40] Mic Bowman: (and that's OK... by the way)

[11:40] Strawberry Fride: :)

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: sure one thing we have to remember

[11:40] Kally Rakan: beta is when all the basic functionality is in and things just need tested and evil bugs shaken out

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we are not paying the devs

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we can not say hey be here on saturday

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: or no paycheck

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: feature complete is a very difficult term in this situation - I don't think we'll ever support absolutely all the stuff in the Linden viewer....

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: like microsoft can

[11:41] Strawberry Fride: exactly

[11:41] Mic Bowman: feature complete is whatever you decide it means

[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Actually they tend to perform BETTER than if it was a sytandard paid job... :)

[11:41] Mic Bowman: the developers have already built something VERY cool

[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: If most software these days is any indication.

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we'll know we're ready for 1.0 when we get there - it'll be a feeling :)

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the developers do want to do it some day...

[11:41] Mic Bowman: a feeling of bliss?

[11:41] Kally Rakan: is there a list of functionality that's being aimed for anywhere?

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya 1.0 also doesnt mean we are now Second Life

[11:42] Penny Lane: Code is ready when it's ready, and saying it's "ready" before it is is a recipe for disaster. But that does mean you should not care twopence when alpha state continues for years. That just means you haven't planned your stable points along the dev path.

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i think most people will never truly undestand that

[11:42] Hiro Protagonist: on the wiki Kally

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i think alot of these people waiting for 1.0

[11:42] Penny Lane: Doesn't mean*

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: are waiting for Second Life

[11:42] Strawberry Fride: hehe

[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: asking myself, is ther ethis days realy soke software thats out of beta ?? :O

[11:42] Kally Rakan: then when all of that is done, that's when people can think of beta

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: mic: I think bliss will have to be reserved for 2.0 :)

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[11:42] Michael McLuhan: LL used to have patch wednesday, just to increment their minor version number.

[11:42] Teravus Ousley is Online

[11:43] WhiteStar Magic: I guess it could be debated whether or not SL is Even out of BETA... I think it is perpetually stuck there

[11:43] Mic Bowman: well.. so long as 1.0 isn't when everyone decides to move on to other projects

[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: One of the problems is that the unfortunately less clueful will take beta software and assume it's production-level regardless of what you say. So we have to make sure it's at least not going to blow everybody up before leaving alpha

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is my point

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: SL is production levels

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and everyone still complains

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: changing our status changes nothing

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: does anybody seriously think opensim is anything other than alpha level at the moment?

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: infact it gives people more reason to complain

[11:43] Mic Bowman: yes

[11:43] Kally Rakan: 1.0 means "This should be useable"

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: when it doesnt work

[11:43] WhiteStar Magic: Hey Teravus

[11:43] Penny Lane: Code never stops changing (until it's dead). That means that you have to plan for points of stability. It's not enough to say "It's be stable when we've finished", because that means it'll never be stable, until it finally dies.

[11:44] Teravus Ousley: hello

[11:44] Michael McLuhan: im thinking you have people *already* using this in products they monetize. so ya, its 1.0

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: hey Teravus

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Penny we are not keeping OpenSIm at alpha because we want to

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: our code is truly at alpha level

[11:44] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we cant provide the long term stability people want

[11:44] Michael McLuhan: marketing would tell you its already out the door

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: to say its going to stay stable for more than a few weeks

[11:45] Strawberry Fride: not arguing pro or con leaving alpha, but even after 1.0 arrives, there'll be more alpha with the next version - whatever that may look like

[11:45] Kally Rakan: it's alpha because basic functionality is missing and/or broken and things can change totally with each version

[11:45] WhiteStar Magic: but stability is also relative to teh platform peopel are running it on

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that will be different

[11:45] Strawberry Fride: but I understand the sentiment around what 1.0 means

[11:45] BlueWall Slade: stabiltiy i s the code base

[11:45] BlueWall Slade: erfactoring can break configuratins and mosules

[11:46] Penny Lane: I know it's truly really alpha. :-) But you need to have a plan for what needs doing so that you know when you've finished with alpha :-)

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: yes

[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: hi bluewall

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think our biggest problem with planning

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: is we cant force devs to work on stuff

[11:46] Hiro Protagonist: heya Ter

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i cant say Justincc your doing this today

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and Mic your doing this today

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: we cant do that

[11:46] BlueWall Slade: beta means you can develop things that stand a snowballs chance in hell of living a month or two

[11:46] BlueWall Slade: Hey RiRa

[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: its hard for anyone to herd the opensim cats

[11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: We did get off onto feature creep for a while. I think the focus is doing fine right now, though.

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: we are unherdable

[11:47] Michael McLuhan: EDS would do it for pay - remembers the superbowl commercial

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I think maturity will actually concentrate minds

[11:47] BlueWall Slade: not unheard-of though

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that appearing in the Intel SC conference is doing some of that

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:47] Penny Lane: Oh, it's not about dates --- dates have never made sense in FOSS. :-) It's just about making boxes, and ticking them when done. :-)

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: the more people we get involved the better

[11:47] Kally Rakan: a possible way to emphasise it is a list of features that someone can point at and say "When those are done and we're pretty sure it won't randomly crash, then it's beta" :)

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: the better chance we have of someone saying what should i be doing today

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: but one thing I think that we really need are more developers with that kind of mentality

[11:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: how about a roadmap?

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: instead of sorry im busy for the next 8 weeks working on this inventory problem etc..

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya i agree justincc

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: there have been roadmaps in the past which nobody took much notice of

[11:48] Bartholomew Kleiber: I see

[11:48] Strawberry Fride: half the fun with stability is that what is relatively stable in one configuration could be completley unstable in others

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: the more people we have the more surpluss of brain power we have that will be looking for something to work on

[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: instead of working on 1 tiny peice that soley benefits the devs project

[11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Except nobody can agree on all the boxs

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I think maturity will concentrate minds - we are already seeing some of this

[11:49] Penny Lane: A checklist would help answer questions by those trying to use it in production. "See those empty boxes? That's why it's alpha."

[11:49] WhiteStar Magic: there's been HUGE progress in teh past few months with remarkable results

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, maybe something like taht would be useful

[11:50] Penny Lane: Yeah, stability++. /me loves

[11:50] BlueWall Slade: Morgaine brought up a good point on the mailing list about the project switch to git

[11:50] Kally Rakan: a list of missing features would help

[11:50] Penny Lane: Morgaine's me, btw :-)

[11:50] BlueWall Slade: that opens a lot of possibilities if a workflow supports it well

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure how much we actually *are* missing apart from the ability to take groups of objects

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: all the rest is bugs :)

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: well, and vehicle physics right now I guess

[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: ^^ thats also the biggest problem

[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Feature-wise I think we could be fine with what's currently in if all current bits and pieces worked. It's stability and performance that are the real issues at the moment.

[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: the bugs

[11:51] Kally Rakan: pointing people to it is better than saying "Physics is broke, inventory is broken, vehicles are broken, linksets are broken"

[11:52] WhiteStar Magic: Speaking of Physics, any clue as to when ODE 11.x will make it in ?

[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: "It r all broked lolk?"

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: kally: If anyone wants to start such a list on the wiki I think it would get positive attention

[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: anybody in the community can do that - it doesn't need to be a dev

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: WhiteStar ive not seen anymore talk about ODE 11 yet

[11:52] Kally Rakan: well, I was thinking more of a list of what should work and work well before beta can be announced

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully soon

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: the sooner we embrace 64 bit on windows the better for me

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: right now ODE is the last puzzle peice i think

[11:53] WhiteStar Magic: yes... hopefully as it has several things updated in it

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: maybe openjpeg too

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I wish Charles was still around - sounds like something he would be very good at doing

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: not sure about that in windows

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: around more, I mean

[11:53] Penny Lane: Some people might like a matrix of implemented features, like we made for viewers a few weeks ago -- http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlcKaO7Zo-3UdEx3N1NkWFVNd3lDUG4xdUFQQU9XNFE&hl=en

[11:54] Penny Lane: JCC: CK not around any more? :-(

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah that 's a good one - would actually be very nice to see such a matrix comparing opensim with over virtual environments, esp. project wonderland and croquet

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: he is, busy will RL stuff

[11:54] Penny Lane: kk

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: charles has been busy lately

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: damn that real life

[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: I figured he was.

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: also he has been working on the OSgrid tax stuff

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: with our lawyers

[11:54] Bartholomew Kleiber: ouch

[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh boy. Taxes. And lawyers.

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: man, that's far too RL for me

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: being Charles is the OSgrid Treasurer on of his responsibilities

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but ya not fun

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: especially for Non profit organizations

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: always a bit more work involved

[11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: Neb: He still interested in the monorail project and such eventually?

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya no doubt he is

[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: osgrid tax stuff. hmm you have more info ?

[11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: K. Just figured I'd check.

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: we all are for sure

[11:56] Kally Rakan: just tangling with lawyers is more work than almost any amount of coding

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus its just tax time soon, we are finalizing our Tax status

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and doing our taxes

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but since everyone here is volunteer we need to get started early

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: we cant wait until the last second

[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: im still lost,maby you have some time to explain afetr the meeting short

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: our lawyers are doing most of the dirty weok

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: work*

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: who pays/need to pay tax

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: as a corporation we have to file taxes

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid, Inc.

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: we have to pay taxes to the government

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: like any other corporation does

[11:58] Kally Rakan: OSGrid is a non-profit right?

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: ok. because the donations ?

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt mean no taxes

[11:58] Bartholomew Kleiber: indeed ...

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: or because people that rent sims ?

[11:58] Kally Rakan: So you have even more complicated tax setup stuff

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: no one rents sims from us

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we are strictly donation based operation

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we do not charge money for anything

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and we do not offer hosting

[11:59] Michael McLuhan: any income; to maintain profit/nonprofit status, you need to keep the taxes right

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: then i dont know why to pay tax :O

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: ok.

[11:59] Kally Rakan: Non-profits have to register for taxes too

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we get lots of donations

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we get donations eveyr day

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: cash donations

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and hardware

[11:59] Kally Rakan: it's just a different and more complicated setup than for a normal corporation

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: it all adds up when your non profit

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we an only take in so much money

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: or we get penalized

[12:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Tere's enough to deal with anyway, renting sims is probably the last thing to jump into.

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its the not fun side of the grid

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:00] Richardus Raymaker: yes..

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but dont worry none of the tax stuff comes back to our users

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its all corporate stuff

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: any taxes we owe will be paid from donation pool

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, it's the top of the hour so I'm going to escape. Good meeting folks :)

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: which btw is around 3500$ about

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: we have in our account

[12:02] Penny Lane: Love this stability

[12:02] WhiteStar Magic: Dump the tea overboard and say NO MORE

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: bye everybody

[12:02] Bartholomew Kleiber: bye

[12:02] Penny Lane: See you JCC

[12:02] Kally Rakan: cya jcc

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: bye justincc

[12:02] Warin Cascabel: Bye, Justin

[12:02] Michael McLuhan: the stability is awesome.

[12:02] julius balogh: bye

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin

[12:02] BlueWall Slade: bye justin

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: one thing we will be doing sooon with some of the donations

[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: is buy a new backup server

[12:02] WhiteStar Magic: besides teh Horror of TAX. WHat about a new Binary for OSG ?

[12:02] Kally Rakan: it's really nice that we can have meetings without the sim dying so often

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: to act as a website/URM/ and backup system

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: incase the main server were to die

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we are doing backups currently

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but not to a dedicated server

[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Stability is vastly superior to what it was but there's still a lot to go.

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we are looking to consilidate all the backups into 1 backup server

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but ya nice to be able to complete a meeting and then some

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: last week the simulator continued to operate fine for atleast 24 hours after the meeting

[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: That's doing pretty good

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: it's getting better all teh time

[12:04] Kally Rakan: that reminds me, are we doing any more of those stability tests with loads of avis?

[12:04] Penny Lane: Are backups trickled continually, or just daily or something?

[12:05] WhiteStar Magic: Trunk is pretty sweet right now too

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right now its like once a week

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: once we get new dedicated server it will probably be more like 2 times a week

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right now our backup system is a bit scattered

[12:06] Penny Lane: Those must be full backups then, not incremental.

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we are doing full backups but not in the most optimal way

[12:06] Michael McLuhan: are the regions also backing up? terrain and such? or is that our problem when we connect?

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: right now restoring takes forever

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Michael no

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we only backup the user data and assets

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we dont have access to simulators

[12:06] Michael McLuhan: just curious; so its basically asset?

[12:06] WhiteStar Magic: The regions are up to the individuals

[12:06] Fly Man: k, time for me to go :)

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: everyone is responsible for thier own regions

[12:06] Fly Man: Neb, talk to Phreach

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we do backup your assets though

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: about what?

[12:06] Fly Man: he would like to try something if needed

[12:06] Fly Man: WebMap

[12:06] Michael McLuhan: ok. cool. good reason to ask for donations ;)

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ok sure

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: will do

[12:07] Fly Man: k

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: thanks FLy Man

[12:07] Fly Man: Have a good evening all :)

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: talk soon

[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: YES.. The WebMap !

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya

[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: GNight Fly

[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye fly

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: lots to fix

[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: well, memory usage seems good. how cpu usage will be with more avatras i need to test on my server. when i have found some avatars :)

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[12:08] Penny Lane: Well I regularly crucify LL for running a non-scalable, centralized asset service, and I'm going to be fair to all. Once Opensim gets closer to being production ready, OSgrid is in for some finger pointing if it makes the same errors. :-)

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: the record right now is somewhere around 65 users

[12:08] OtakuMegane Desu: CPU Usage seems to spike on the first avatar then it's fairly minimal for each additional after that.

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes the 1st avatar initiates the scene i beleive

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: so it does more than any other login will

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: thus creating a spike in CPU

[12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: there is no avoiding that right now

[12:09] WhiteStar Magic: we need to load test with teh new fixes

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: we can set up a load test this week

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great i wanted to do that anyway

[12:09] WhiteStar Magic: I think that Ter's fixes may improve that as well

[12:10] WhiteStar Magic: every gram adds up to Kilo's

[12:10] Richardus Raymaker: would be nice if someone can yell if he need a test in SL :O

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: you mean announce in SL we are testing here?

[12:10] WhiteStar Magic: hahahahaha

[12:11] Michael McLuhan: sure. go for it.

[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: No, call for testers in SL. then i can jup to here.

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya