Chat log from the meeting on 2017-05-23

[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There were some questions about BulletSim physics last week. [11:07] Misterblue Waves: like what? [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'd have to go back through last weeks notes to remember what exactly. IIRC, it was related to crossing regions with a vehicle. [11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The vehicles stopped working after a crossing and the person had to stand up and sit back down again. [11:10] Misterblue Waves: do you have a link to last week's minutes? [11:10] Arielle Popstar: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2017-05-16 [11:10] Arielle Popstar: around 11.55 [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok, ty Arielle. [11:11] Arielle Popstar: Logger sewell [11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: He is currently busy but he may be able to get to this meeting soon. [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I saw on the mailing list today Diva said the changes to permissions are OK to use now. Are they safe for production or still in flux? [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Other issues are being worked on at the moment. There is still at least one object related perms issue to be addressed. [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:14] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: The hanging on exit for newer monos seems difficult to nail down. [11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: when that is done will that mean 0.9 will be released? [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I thought that had been addressed some time ago but it appears to have popped up again [11:15] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It's still happening on anything newer than 4.0.4, I tried 5.0.0.100 today, but it still hang on exit. [11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Leighton, I don't know if that is the only issue holding up 0.9 [11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Oh ok [11:16] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002 silently nods and [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Many of the mono 4.x series have caused problems. I thought there was one version of 4 that was ok to use but now I'm hearing perhaps not. [11:16] Misterblue Waves: Diva has been building a test suite for permissions [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I used the brute force method suggested in #7743 and after taking Ubit's changes this morning it works a bit more graceful. On mono 4.8.1 [11:17] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I've been using 4.0.4 without any issues so far. [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, she has. That will go a long way to verifying if perms are working as expected. It will also allow testing future versions of code to catch any regressions. [11:17] Misterblue Waves: the main outcome has been thinking through a lot of the permission hairyness and then writing tests that confirm them [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: up to 4.4.2 works fine in my experience [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anything above hangs [11:18] Misterblue Waves: I don't know if she wrote anything up... but there has been a lot of fixes and cleanups of permissions... if anything, they are much more correct in the latest master [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I had seen hangs on other earlier versions of mono. [11:18] Arielle Popstar: there is  a thread  in metro forums  mentioning  probs with mono on new ubuntu  and IPv6 [11:18] Arielle Popstar: https://forum.hypergrid.org/post30661.html#p30661 [11:19] Misterblue Waves: mono versions have become a real problem.... we need some devs to work on compatibility with the newer monos [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Misterblue, part of the problem with writing tests for perms is knowing what the proper behaviour should be. [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ...now that Microsoft installs mono 5 with their editors.... [11:20] Misterblue Waves: very much so Andrew [11:20] Misterblue Waves: there were lots of discussions on #opensim-dev [11:20] Arielle Popstar: striving for s/l compatibility on perms? [11:21] Misterblue Waves: mostly trying to have SL compatibilitiy while allowing for HG [11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, not 100% on that. SL has some perms issues. [11:21] Arielle Popstar: HG is just a transport system [11:22] Arielle Popstar: are perms changing on HG jumps? [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think it is the effect on the visitor after the transport we are talking about [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: perms change to the extent there are differences between OpenSim versions running on grids, including local forks and adaptations [11:23] Misterblue Waves: Arielle: not changing prermissions just making sure that extensions to the permissions for being in 'non-home' grids are what one expects [11:24] Arielle Popstar: nod [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kitely non export is one example [11:24] Arielle Popstar: that might be beyond  control   in view  of  the potential compatibilities [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, Kitely market has an export control setting that is not the same as the in-viewer export option. [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not everything on Kitely happens on the marketplace [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one example is free items given away in sims that you cannot bring home [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. I thought that might have been the option you were referencing [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, that would suggest the export bit on the item was not set. [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure, but it is a local adaptation [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meeting HG travelers [11:28] Arielle Popstar: so might have to relook at how hypergrid  is done. Reading some historical aspects  of  how HG was brought in, it struck me that  the current method  is a second  choice  because at the time, the core devs  didnt have  the ability to look at or modify  viewers [11:29] Arielle Popstar: which isn't the case now [11:29] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: OpenSimulator can be configured to disallow object transfer between grids. That's not the same as the Kitely Market export flag. They're very seperate things. [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, that is what I said. :) [11:29] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Oops. I should read this with both eyes. lol [11:30] Ubit Umarov: Diva forgot to mention the worse issue with mono [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The Kitely export flag on Kitely non marketplace items is proprietary [11:30] Ubit Umarov: that is its DNS [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have not shared the implementation with anyone [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, np. You said it in a bit more detail. [11:31] Ubit Umarov: 2 issues on that depending on mono version [11:31] Ubit Umarov: A) does not respect TTL, with that breaking dyndns things [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: An object could be full perm but that doesn't automatically mean the object creator wanted to allow people to carry the item to other grids. [11:32] Ubit Umarov: B) seems there is a issue with invalid reverse.. that kills most real life IPV4 [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I would expect the default to be no export allowed on objects. [11:32] Arielle Popstar: not good for legacy items  Andrews [11:33] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Full perm only confers the rights explicitly stated. Grid transfer is not one of those rights. To respect copyright. you have to consider all other rights reserved. [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, if it is a legacy item it could be difficult to contact the original creator to determine their wishes about an object. [11:33] Arielle Popstar: copyright  has  no clue  about different "grids" [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: @Markus, an avatar, who is the legal entity behind ownership of an item has the right to use that item everywhere it is technically possible [11:34] Arielle Popstar: that is manufactured  thing  because  of Opensim [11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, is the reverse DNS issue a problem with looking up the IP of the main grid server or the IP address of a server running a region? [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: connected grids and virtual identities are not legal entities [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only the person behind is [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: behind the avatar [11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Gavin, in theory yes. In the US, things like the First Party Doctrine ought to apply, But so far case law regarding digital goods doesn't lean that way. [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Half of the grids are in non US locations [11:36] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: And there is a big difference between an owner's rights and a creators rights. Copyright is about the creators rights, and those often trump owner rights. [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I wish this post beside me wasn't in the way. Makes it hard for me to see everyone properly. Can't remove it without the roof coming down on hour heads. :) [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You said that Andrew [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: move the cam [11:37] Arielle Popstar: anyway what about this  mono thing? [11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, I might be able to make that work if I look at people from behind. [11:37] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Ubit has been eyeballing the mono thing, and misterblue has at least dipped a toe in, from the looks of the mantis report. [11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: But there are other posts that will get in the way [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: If it is a mono issue a proper fix may be on hold until it gets fixed by the mono developers. [11:38] Arielle Popstar: so is relevant for those running  linux  but not windows [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, yes [11:38] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Getting upstream mono to fix things on our behalf has always been easy. >:) [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Linux and macOS [11:39] Arielle Popstar: most home users  on windows  probably? [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I doubt it is a pure mono issue given they have released at leat 3 version since it was first detected [11:39] Misterblue Waves: my fear is that Mono is being 'improved' and we cannot expect perfect backward compatibility [11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, that would be a safe bet but I haven't seen any stats to back it up. [11:39] Misterblue Waves: in that case, OS will have to change to adapt to the new 'improved' version [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is a LOT of Microsoft code flowing into mono these days [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there are changes [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Misterblue, the mono devs may also still be in the middle of making use of the code released by MS. [11:40] Ubit Umarov: well im really "blind" about those mono issues.. for the moment i can't test with mono [11:40] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It is getting harder to build old version of mono. I couldn't build a 3.x version on Ubuntu 17.04 for example. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: Mels view   was apparently  is that home users  will be history [11:40] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: well that's why targetting .NET core would probably a good thing to work towards. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: according to one poster [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Cinder [11:40] Misterblue Waves: I bet they don't have unit tests to make sure everything that worked just-so before working exactly the same after code merges [11:41] Ubit Umarov: cinder, many opensim users run old machines.. that does limit us [11:41] Ubit Umarov: we are "stuck" on XP suport [11:41] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: dot.net core is even more of a moving target than mono is. Don't get me wrong, I love dot.net core, but porting to it would not be trivial... it makes more than a few breaking changes, and we'd have to be certain of full support for the assemblies we use. [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Code breaking between versions is a common issue. I have seen working programs on my system break after updates. [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Most likely due to lack of test suites [11:42] Ubit Umarov: (and well, we have tons of code that is actually .net 0,1 ;) [11:42] Misterblue Waves: OS will have to move on someday [11:42] Arielle Popstar: move on how? [11:43] Ubit Umarov: yeap we do move... just can't rush to top [11:43] Misterblue Waves: I'm not totally sure about Mel's 'home is dead' view.... there are some OS functions that rely on reverse lookup but I don't know if they are cast in stone [11:43] Ubit Umarov: ( and rushing to top is rushing into tons of new bugs hard to spot) [11:43] Misterblue Waves: but I haven't looked deeply into the problem [11:44] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: That we still base test builds on mono 2.10.8 is kinda weird to me. Surely most reasonable people have upgraded either mono or their distro to something that runs a version of mono that's been released much later than 2011. [11:44] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: well i think that's the version centos still ships with. [11:44] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: but it's less than ideal to actually run opensim on that. [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: centos or 2.10.8? [11:45] Arielle Popstar: any major grids use it? [11:45] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: 2.10.8 [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is slow 2.x compared to version 3 [11:46] Ubit Umarov: we still do compile checks on 2.xx [11:46] Ubit Umarov: that we do need to change :) [11:46] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: gc in mono 2.x is rotten. [11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: And that's saying it nicely. lol [11:46] Ubit Umarov: guess no one uses that now [11:46] Arielle Popstar: it was Justin in past  who kept the mono versions  from being upgraded [11:47] Ubit Umarov: well i will also slow that down..  just not that down ;) [11:47] Misterblue Waves: there was some method to that madness :) [11:47] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Well, to be fair, it wasn't that long ago that distro were very poor about updating mono packages. That's changes in the last 4 years or so. [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: How about stating minimum requirement for 0.9 is some suitable version of 3? [11:48] Arielle Popstar: seem to remember Justin mentioning it was debian  holding it  up  back then [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I have access to some machines running CentOS but I can't tell which version of mono is available to them as packages. [11:48] Ubit Umarov: we need to fix issues with mono 4x... ( the not broken versions of it ) [11:48] Misterblue Waves: is it acceptable to specify a Mono version that is required? [11:48] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Debian (which i use) was a major bad actor in mono upgrades, yes. [11:48] Ubit Umarov: we do need better working GC etc [11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: They've since improved, and xamarin has it's own mono repos for debian as well. [11:49] Misterblue Waves: most Linux distributions have Mono 4.x [11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Yup [11:49] Ubit Umarov: boehm doesn't seem to be holding well with the caching etc [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't had a chance to do some code updates to see if the recent changes to OS re: which GC to makes any different to the amount of memory is used by Robust. [11:50] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Boehm is still there as an option, but hasn't been the default in ages. Mono 5.0 has an even newer GC. I forget what it is. [11:51] Ubit Umarov: yes marcus.Llewellyn but those DNS issues prevent osg for example to use mono 4x on robust [11:51] Ubit Umarov: we do need to find them [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so what should you run Robust on Ubit? [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs up to 4.4.2 [11:52] Ubit Umarov: osg is stuck on 3.2.8 [11:52] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Centos 7.3 has mono-core 4.2.4 [11:52] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Verfügbare Pakete Name      : mono-core Architektur : x86_64 Version   : 4.2.4 Ausgabe   : 7.el7 Größe : 15 M Quelle     : epel/x86_64 [11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Curious. Why is that a problem for OSgrid? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: with 4x regions using dyndns fail [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ah, IC [11:53] Ubit Umarov: but im talking from reports i get.. can't really test [11:53] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: 4x regions? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: ( mono 4x ) [11:53] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Ah [11:54] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I'm running a grid with robust under mono 4.0.4. Seems to run just fine, and I use dyndns. [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, which version of OS are you using? [11:54] Ubit Umarov: well Dan and others do report issues [11:55] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Oh lord... dunno. lol. Some oldish version of master at the moment. [11:55] Ubit Umarov: an initial one was the TTL.. mono caching dns entries for ever [11:55] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: that can be changed. [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the open connect regions with dyndns is an issue when on OSGrid? [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I've got memory issues with Robust using a master from December with mono 3.2.8 and 4.3.2 [11:55] Ubit Umarov: that showed on early 4.X i was told.. hope fixed on more recent ones [11:56] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: i've got a patch somewhere for that even. it's opensim caching those not mono. [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the run higher than 3.2.8? [11:56] Ubit Umarov: don't think we do much dns caching [11:57] Ubit Umarov: hmm if any.. hmm [11:58] Ubit Umarov: the reverse dns issue mb ours.. i'm just failing to find where :( [11:58] Misterblue Waves: are the memory issues only with Robust use? [11:58] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: what's the reverse dns issue? is there a mantis? [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, yes. I haven't noticed the problem with the regions. [11:58] Ubit Umarov: yes [11:58] Ubit Umarov: ( looking ) [11:59] Arielle Popstar: does it have to do with this thread Ubit? https://forum.hypergrid.org/post30661.html#p30661 [11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7908 ) [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: 7908? [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... Ubit and I found it about the same time. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I don't think Logger is going to make it to todays meeting as we will soon be wrapping up for today. [12:01] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: I have a simple question about the latest master versions [12:01] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: @ Arielle: In that case the IPv6 address got entered into the grid database and the clients couldn't connect to it since it wasn't even bound to opensim [12:01] Arielle Popstar: ahh ok. Thx Sheera [12:02] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: these versions seem to have fewer items, dlls [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in bin you mean? [12:02] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: yes [12:02] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: i have an old master from october 2016 which works fine [12:03] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: so what I don't quite understand is why an IPv6 address gets entered into the grid database even though opensim isn't even using it [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pick up the release candidate zip and they missing should be there [12:03] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: and wanted to upgrade [12:03] Arielle Popstar: Sheera that  was  why  i wondered  if the issues  were connected [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Sky, a lot has changed in master since 2016 [12:04] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002 snorts. [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Andrew if you just download a zipped version of the latest master, it does not have all the binaries needed to run [12:04] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: fewer dlls are necessary Andrew? [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you have to get them from elsewhere [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the RC zip has them [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: SkyFlier, I have never counted the DLL files. [12:05] Ubit Umarov: ( there are also mantis for the ttl issues but older and im not finding them ;) ) [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the OSGrid zip probably does too [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, what binaries are missing? [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a bunch [12:05] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: so these older dlls are no longer necessary? [12:05] Ubit Umarov: hmm what is missing other then VS 2008 runtime for ode ? [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: try just download the zipped version of master from git [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will not run [12:06] Ubit Umarov: what is missing gavin? [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: There may be items missing from the package but nothing required to run OS. There may be some things that a typical grid would like to have but that may not be included by default. [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I cannot remember at the top of my head [12:07] Ubit Umarov: i use git clone and see no issues :( [12:07] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: when you get to release version you expect to have pretty much whats in the master now? [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: SkyFlier, yes. [12:08] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: i guess i was an hour late sorry [12:08] Ubit Umarov: hmm RC2 is old now [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: download the RC and download master and do a diff on the two bin [12:08] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: yes it is [12:08] Arielle Popstar: meeting usually goes  2  hours  but some leave after the first [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: SkyFlier, I count 124 DLL files but that would include about 3 that are unique to my setup and not part of a stock version of OS. [12:09] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: if you say RC2 is old then i dont need it right? [12:09] Arielle Popstar: .9 RC2? Thats  only a couple months  i thought [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the missing binaries are things that don't change often if at all [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, check on what you think is missing and get back to us next meeting. [12:10] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: that would be great [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Yeah I'll diff the two and see [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before we start more people need to leave? [12:11] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: in the mean time i will see how the master works for me [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: SkyFlier, you will need to check the ini files and update your configuration. There has been a number of changes to the ini files. [12:12] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: thank you Andre [12:12] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: yes [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: yw [12:12] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: i always check the new ini files [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: SkyFlier, the OSSL enables are kept in a separate file. That might have changed from the master you are using from 2016 [12:13] Arielle Popstar: and ossl.ini [12:13] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: is visual studio 2010 still good enough to build the code? [12:13] Arielle Popstar: should have all the ini's in one folder  instead  of spread  all over :) [12:13] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: some said should use vs 2017 [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Does anyone here know that who builds under Windows? [12:13] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: the details on that mantis are a little slim. i'm assuming opensim is calling DNS.GetHostEntry [12:14] Ubit Umarov: ( and ppl plz report issues also mantis so we can see them ) [12:14] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: ok Ubit [12:14] Ubit Umarov: yes it is cinder :( [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, that makes things easier. I have been keeping my changes in a single separate file now instead of customizing the main files. [12:15] Ubit Umarov: and we only call DNS.GetHostEntry on local things [12:15] Ubit Umarov: some i actually removed like that non op NAT code [12:15] Ubit Umarov: well it was doing nothing anyway... [12:15] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: ty Ubit [12:16] Ubit Umarov: Adam disabled it while he was doing it :) [12:16] Arielle Popstar: Cinder, any idea why the viewers on some routers  pick up the internal router IP  instead of the external? [12:16] Arielle Popstar: causing  a mismatch  on  HG jumps [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but Melanie submitted a commit not very long ago with a setting for how the internal vs external IP should be handled [12:16] Ubit Umarov: Ari o told you that already [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I never understood how it worked [12:17] Ubit Umarov: is how some routers do lookback [12:17] Ubit Umarov: not viewers [12:17] Arielle Popstar: mhmm  but  if viewer can be configured differently in those cases.... [12:17] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: because that's what the interface is telling them it is. it's not a viewer thing. [12:17] Ubit Umarov: some routers loopback using internal IP [12:17] Ubit Umarov: not external one [12:17] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: damn, and it looks like GetHostByAddress is deprecated too. :( [12:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap seen that also [12:18] Ubit Umarov: well i still fail to find where we to look for reverse :( [12:18] Ubit Umarov: but im kinda blind ;) [12:19] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: mono is handling GetHostEntry wrong. instead of doing what it should be doing, it's discarding any dns result and returning the interface ipv4 address. [12:19] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: looks like they broke it trying to fix ipv6 resolution. :O [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Make resolving the IP on startup optional. Adds ResolveAddress boolean to regions.ini [12:20] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: i'm trying to think of some alternative method that could be used. [12:20] Ubit Umarov: IPHostEntry rDNS = Dns.GetHostEntry(end); [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Commit: 9ef9dde0f3ea9185bb9aca03d173e5312e1ba308 [9ef9dde [12:21] Ubit Umarov: we only use it directly on ban checks [12:21] Ubit Umarov: but that code was not working at all since 2 days ago [12:21] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: the irony here is if ipv6 worked on mono, we wouldn't need any of this NAT crap, :^) [12:21] Ubit Umarov: ) but mono does use it internally i fear ) [12:22] Arielle Popstar: suppose it would  be  a challenge to have  opensim use ipv6? [12:22] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: but the IPv6 address isn't stable either... [12:22] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: impossible with the state of support in mono. [12:22] Ubit Umarov: i would hate to bypass mono on dns [12:22] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: You've have to drag the viewers along to IPV6, which would also mean a major change to their protocol stack. [12:22] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: due to the privacy extensions the IPv6 changes regularly - even more often than dyn IPv4 [12:23] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: not really. most of the resolution is done in curl, ipv6 in the viewer would almost be free. [12:23] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: you wouldn't need a static ipv6 address, that's what AAAA records are for. [12:24] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well then we are back at square one with the reverse DNS problem ^^ [12:24] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: no because reverse dns isn't an issue in ipv6. [12:24] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: because there's no need for NAT transversal. [12:25] Arielle Popstar: every appliance has  its own external address? [12:25] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: DynDNS I meant, sorry [12:25] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: in my experience, every iface gets about 3 addresses. [12:25] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: time-warner gave me 500 ipv6 addresses to use. [12:26] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: normally you get at least a /64 net [12:26] Cinder.Biscuits @login.digiworldz.com:8002: yeah [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: one IP per IF. The only time you see "multiples" is if it uses something like wlan.0, wlan.1 [12:26] Ubit Umarov: well we dont have all that much info on the reverse dns issue.. just that its there ;) [12:27] Ubit Umarov: i can't make Dan break osgrid to test it ;( [12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:27] Arielle Popstar flüstert: aww : [12:27] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: It's been broken before. I say make him. ;) [12:28] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: couldn't the robust server simply use the IP-address the region uses to connect and put it into the database? [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't test reverse DNS issues as the machines I've been using to run OS all have proper reverse DNS [12:28] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: the grid server should see the correct IP, shouldn't it? [12:28] Ubit Umarov: it sees the direct one [12:29] Ubit Umarov: thing is that many ISPs don't have correct reverse [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, it is why I asked Ubit whether the reverse DNS issue is at the upper grid level, or affects servers running regions and their reverse mappings [12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: He didn't answer so may not have seen the question [12:30] Ubit Umarov: they buy IP ranges from others, set the FW and ignore the reverse [12:30] Ubit Umarov: or dynamic IP.. they don't care about reverse. [12:31] Ubit Umarov: so real world IPv4 reverse cant be used [12:31] Ubit Umarov: except on mail machines and similar where you want a proper peer [12:31] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I have a question there: is there any kind of regular traffic between the region server and robust with the uuid of the region in it? [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, I think so. How regular. [12:32] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: then the robust could use those packets to determine the current IP without any DNS at all [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ? [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: real world IPv4 reverse can't be used?? [12:32] Ubit Umarov: i said why andrew [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: why what? [12:33] Ubit Umarov: why it can't be used [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, you were talking about dyndns [12:34] Ubit Umarov: more than that [12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you run your own DNS can't you create a reverse record that is fits the bill? [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: sure. [12:34] Ubit Umarov: most ISPs smaller ones specially don't care about reverse tables [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: or if you have your own domain name then you have access to the DNS entries for the domain and can set reverse mappings. [12:35] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Metro Grid uses an extension which gets rid of the whole DynDNS problem... [12:35] Ubit Umarov: mine does not care [12:35] Ubit Umarov: my reverse does not point to my fw [12:36] Ubit Umarov: well today my fw points to someone else its broken :) [12:36] Ubit Umarov: AHHH its fixrf Yiiipiii [12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else for today? [12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's leave it at that for today.