Chat log from the meeting on 2015-03-24

[10:56] Connected [11:00] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello [11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia [11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi neb [11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 waves [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: Justin messaged me on skype earlier he will be unable to attend today [11:00] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: he seems busy lately [11:01] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hello everyone :) [11:01]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Alicia [11:01]  Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:01]  Ubit Umarov is Offline [11:02]  Ubit Umarov is Online [11:02]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I saw your response to Sean on mailing list about PhysX Dahlia [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: my feelings are pretty mixed on it [11:04]  Dahlia Trimble: I saw yours [11:04]  Dahlia Trimble: people are going to do what they want [11:05]  Kayaker Magic: I saw no response that indicated there was going to be a Physx binding for Linux. [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that is quite obvious, and he has good and valid points for sure [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: but my worry is that it will very much be a one way valve [11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: probably [11:05]  Hiro Protagonist: could one of y'all summarize a little? [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: if we bring their code into OpenSim and change it things would likely split / fork at that point [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: MOSES grid is talking about integrating Nvidia PhysX into their OpenSim branch [11:06] Hiro Protagonist: ahh [11:06] Dahlia Trimble: just because they release it doesn't mean we take it [11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: https://www.mail-archive.com/opensim-dev@opensimulator.org/msg00727.html [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if am right you talk about that one [11:06] Hiro Protagonist: thanks RiRa [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and making it available to everyone of course, but that would mean an OpenSim dev would need to bring the code over [11:07] Hiro Protagonist: question: why wouldnt we? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: no its not that one [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: PhysX can be intressting. but it need to work with lsl the same as SL. and then you can expand it with OSSL [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ohh. ok. [11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sorry, wrong one indeed [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/pipermail/opensim-dev/2015-March/025540.html [11:08] Nebadon Izumi whispers: well if you read the thread, they make it clear that they do not really intend on staying compatible with "SL [11:08]  Kayaker Magic: I don't understand that argument: Why must PhysX work with LSL the way SL does? ODE does not. BulletSim does not. Why not PhyX also? [11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: https://www.mail-archive.com/opensim-dev@opensimulator.org/msg00765.html [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: which i assume means making sure that LSL works correctly etc.. [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: and that vehicles work as expected [11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Kayaker. i mean with how verhicles are handled. [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: the question really comes down to also, is it better than BulletSim [11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi otaku [11:09]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hi [11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: vehicles break in SL when they update havok from one version to another [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: bringing in physX likely means BulletSim development would either slow considerably or worse stop [11:09] Robert Adams is Online [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ah cool Robert is here [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wanted to try a plane in inworldz. but there's no free one. only expensive ones [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: maybe he can share what he thinks [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: if SL cant keep them working across havok versons, I dont see how we can [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: at least not found one. [11:10] Hiro Protagonist: I think it's good to have options, but it helps if everything works fairly well and moves forward more or less on the same curve [11:10] BlueWall Slade is Online [11:10] Hiro Protagonist: it irks me somehow when it becomes a 'this' vs 'that' conversation [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: well that is true and I am not so much worried about that [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert :) [11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi robert [11:10]  Hiro Protagonist: hey-o, Robert Adams :) [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: we were just talking about the PhysX email thread [11:11] Robert Adams: hello all [11:11] Robert Adams: what should I be thinking about? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: pros and cons of bringing what they do into core, if indeed they get that far to share it [11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: they are going to do what they want. We may as well make some acceptance critera known at the start [11:11] Hiro Protagonist: Uhm, a classic genoa salami submarine sandwich with olive relish [11:11] Robert Adams: are we talking about the PhysX thing? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:11] Hiro Protagonist: lol yes [11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: Unless PhysX can give something(s) significant that Bullet can't then BulletSim really should at least have dev priority. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: just tossing thoughts around is all, its really too early for anything but speculation at this point [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:12] Robert Adams: my opinion is they should go for it if they need it for their grid [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea well of course, I have no problem with that [11:12] Hiro Protagonist: my opinion is they should go for it if they plan to do (most of) the work [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: my thoughts were more around bringing anything they do into core [11:12] Robert Adams: as to putting it into OS, it would need to support multiple platforms and otherwise fit into the physics module system [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and how that may or may not effect BulletSim [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: Otaku, priority usually goes to whatever the *unpaid* devs want to work on [11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah if their changes dont play nice with opensim, I think they are effectively forking [11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: lol, well yes [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: what I would hate to see is work on BulletSim slow or stop to work on yet another physx engine [11:13] Robert Adams: and, while it would be nice if their engineer time could be spent on improving what we already have, they are going to do their own thing [11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what is it that makes them want to go that route rather than spending the time expanding/improving Bullet? [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Richardus: Look up Judy Dressler's shop in InWorldz, she leaves demo planes out to try. She was into planes in SL once, so the scripts are similar to SL ones. [11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: what are your thoughts on BulletSim 3 like Sean mentioned Robert? [11:14] Hiro Protagonist: they probably have personnel with skillsets they can leverage in that tech Aine [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: having the ability for Multithread / GPU [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: is that a pipe dream for BulletSim? [11:14] Robert Adams: I haven't talked to them about why they chose PhysX... could be some GPU vendor has been talking to them :) [11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Robert, is tehre a trick ton avoid shaking camera on slope terrain when you walk. [11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Maby the want to move the load from cpu to GPU ? [11:14]  Robert Adams: Richardus I haven't seen that problem [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: check Seans last response on that email Thread Robert [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: he lays out in detail why they chose it [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: and I can tell you pretty much exactly what brought this on [11:15]  Dahlia Trimble: There's probably a lot going on behind the scenes related to their funding that we know nothing about which may influence their decisions [11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. robert. i come back on the problem when im done with the stronger pc. maby that helps [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: at FCVW InWorldz did a presentation that included showing off their physics engine [11:15] Robert Adams: Bullet3 has multi-threads and GPU... I'd hoped it would have happened years ago because that was the origional reason I started on BulletSim [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: which to me honestly wasnt that impressive, but aparantly it caught dougs eye [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I stay with bullet [11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and opensim use bullet 2 ? [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: yeah Robert and company have worked mircales moving bullet forward. So far, its a decent fit. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: would it be hard to transition from the version of bullet we use to Bullet3? [11:16] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it would be nice to have multi threads [11:17] Robert Adams: PhysX does MUCH better than Bullet on mesh to mesh collisions... InWorldZ can build pretty impressive engines (pistons, gears, ...) [11:17] Hiro Protagonist: And if that can be improved upon and/or complimented, thats great, but I dont think we should really try to prefer anything except it excite some dev passion [11:17] Dahlia Trimble: the thing that bothers me about adding more physics options is how distributing physics based objects and vehicles over the hypergrid may be impacted [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: btw for those that got here after I mentioned it earlier, Justin messaged me on Skype earlier and said he would be unable to attend the meeting today [11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: That's a very good point Dahlia [11:17] Robert Adams: I know MOSES wants realistic vehicles (springed wheeles, ...) [11:17] OtakuMegane Desu: Vehicles are tricky as it is [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: we do have the ability with OSSL to detect the physics engine [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: of course it does make development more difficult [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: you could just make your script not work on anything but bullet though [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Thats why i say physx need to be lsl SL compatible with verhicles [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: ODE offers wheel suspension I believe, but I dont think our APIs expose it [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: to prevent to much pain for folks [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: we sort of do with Ninja Physics [11:18] Hiro Protagonist: yes dahlia it does [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but its not good enough for use in vehicles [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: infact its down right dangerous to even try [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i do not suggest it [11:18]  Robert Adams: I started adding flexible linksets to BUlletSim mostly for fancy vehicles [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: unless you like hacking your database to get your region to start again [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:19] Hiro Protagonist: ode does a lot of stuff we never tried to take advantage of; it simulates a little more deeply than we usually try to accomplish (or need to) [11:19] Robert Adams: 'flexible linksets' means changing linksets links to hinges or springs or ... [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: yea that would be awesome Robert [11:19] Robert Adams: The other alternative is a whole new vehicle model -- replace the SL legacy vehicle [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: they could also try doing vehicle suspensions client-side [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: one thing I completely disagree with MOSES on the topic of Bullet and their justification for not using it [11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: OSSL verhicles [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: is High CPU [11:20] BlueWall Slade: + [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: when its been said many times that not much optimization has gone into Physics [11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: What walks down stairs alone or in pairs... :D [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bullet = high cpu ? [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: When I first started in SL in 2004 the viewer actually exposed a sprung link [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: but it was very unstable so no one used it [11:20]  Hiro Protagonist: it eventually disappeared [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to be on of Seans justiification for abandoning Bullet for PhysX [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: that it uses to much CPU [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: I think bullet used to use more cpu than ode but not sure it still does [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: yeah I havent seen high cpu use with bullet vehicles at all [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i mean, not see in how i use bullet strange cpu usage [11:21] BlueWall Slade: they are talking GPU as well [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately I think their methodology for justifying that is flawed [11:21] BlueWall Slade: And that don't fly with datacenter hosted [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but i guess that could be argued either way [11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi b leuwall [11:21] BlueWall Slade: Hi RiRa [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: well you have to understand, MOSES team has a considerably large Hardware Budget [11:21] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: and access to crazy hardware [11:21] BlueWall Slade: yes [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: they are the army lol [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: so i can see their desire for wanting to use GPU acceleration [11:22] BlueWall Slade: but, probably 99% of our user base does not [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: they can afford it [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: the server we used for FCVW [11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: GPU shouldn't be that big an issue for datacenter these days. You don't have to throw top-end stuff at it, a mid-range AATI will run circles around most CPUs in raw processing. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: has 100 cpu cores and 1tb of ram or something [11:22] Robert Adams is Offline [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: it was absurd [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: ya you can get servers with gpus [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: we lost Robert [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: im sure he will be back [11:23] BlueWall Slade: gpu == more power though, and when multiplied across a datacenter it would add up. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: MOSES does not run out of a standard Data center [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: you dont need it if you dont need it :) [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: they would have to charge more as well. [11:23]  Hiro Protagonist: I would think not [11:23]  Robert Adams is Online [11:23]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: most datacenters wpuld blow fuses with to many GPU cards :O [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: there are lots of data centers [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: right - that is what I'm saying. [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: where you can send a Full Tower machine for Colocation [11:23]  OtakuMegane Desu: Depends what GPU. Some of those low-end ones have similar or better processing abaility than Xeons but use the same power [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: and its ultimaitely not super expensive [11:24]  Sarah Kline is Online [11:24]  Shez Oyen: WB Robert :) [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: maybe 25-50% more than renting a 1U machine [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: wb RA [11:24]  Robert Adams: sorry about that [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: at home i would add low-end in if i would do it, just because power usage [11:24] BlueWall Slade: Hi Robert [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wb robert [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: thats what that big X does... :p [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: you could build yourself a nice machine with 4 Nvidia Titans :) [11:24]  Jim Jackson: Hi Sarah [11:24]  Robert Adams: when I've tried Bullet with OpenCL, my first discovery was that all the OpenCL libraries are different, multi-versioned, and incompatible [11:24]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Now thats bloweing 'something' nebadon [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: but even so, what I think is ultimaitely more attractive [11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: I really dont have a use for a machine with 4 titans [11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi sarah [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: is CPU with a GPU onboard [11:25]  Robert Adams: it will be Really Hard to build one OpenCL DLL that will work in many places [11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: ^ [11:25]  Sarah Kline: hi [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: like an i7 with a HD6000 or something [11:25]  Hiro Protagonist: +1 neb [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: that could be interesting [11:25] Hiro Protagonist: and SSD on MB [11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: Even if we ignore discrete GPUs, the built-in ones are improving rapidly [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: PhysX i beleive only works with Nvidia? [11:26] Dahlia Trimble: not sure [11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But, i dont know if robert ansered the question if its difficult to go from bullet2 to bullet3 [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: does anyone know if you can do GPu hardware acceleration with AMD GPU? [11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Last I checked it was Nvidia, at least for the GPU stuff [11:26] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:26] Robert Adams: Neb, accelerated,yes.... there is a soft fallback for PhysX [11:26] Dahlia Trimble: I think it works on cpu if no capable gpu is available [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ok i wasnt sure if PhysX was Nvidia only [11:26] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [11:26] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it kind of makes sense it would work on more than Just Nvidia [11:26] Dahlia Trimble: unity uses physx [11:26] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it may just be not as optimized [11:26] BlueWall Slade: if there is no gpu, then what is the performance gain? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: well multi-thread [11:27] Robert Adams: PhysX is an NVidia product.... it and CUDA are their interfaces [11:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Bullet will use OpenCL so it'll run on any GPU that has a driver for it [11:27]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: downside i think [11:27] Jim Jackson: hi Hiro [11:27] BlueWall Slade: -vs- Bulletsim [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: where current bulletsim is single thread [11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But that can be solved nebadon [11:27] Robert Adams: there is needed work to allow multiple threads for physics -- there is already a problem of thread starvation in OpenSimulator [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: even if we do get Multithread CPU support on Bulletsim we still need to optimze what a single thread can do [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: personally I dont have a physics bottleneck [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: run 2 of my racers :P [11:28] Dahlia Trimble: I have [11:28] Robert Adams: there also needs to be a new physics API for linksets (the current one is ugly, ugly) [11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: + Neb [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i admit my racer isnt great though [11:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only useing keyframemotion mostly [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: I havent had much time or desire to improve it lately [11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: It would depend some on what you're doing with physics and the hardware it's running on. [11:28] Hiro Protagonist: Robert is that something that can only be soved with mor eprocessor e cores [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but I have seem some awesome vehicles [11:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: how is opensim run out of threads, intrestsing to know [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: the Mars Rover from Cutuelala [11:28] Hiro Protagonist: (less the typos) [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: is just awesome [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it runs awesome even on BulletXNA [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: on my raspberry pi [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: had 2 of those running around on the Pi [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and it was actually quite good [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: one of the people testing my llLookAt fix had over 300 objects running at the same time [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: bullet :) [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:29]  Robert Adams: there are lots of other OpenSim bugs to fix :) [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: yep [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup [11:30] BlueWall Slade: not many resources to fix them [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: and some devs have their own pet projects :) [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: yea opensim in general as good as it runs, could definitely stand for some major optimizing [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: we did a load test for vehicles (impromptu) involving two or three aircraft, a dozen sailboats, and a couple of powerboats, plus random cars... all on a var at osgrid international [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: it got laggy, but it worked [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: Xengine for one [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: is definitely a weak link [11:30]  Robert Adams: long term, OS had to think about its architecture and extensions.... when SL2 comes out expectations will change [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: it was no worse than sailing blake sea in sl on any sunday afternoon [11:30]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Scripting seems to be a big weak point right now. And threads. [11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Or people run screaming away from SL2 [11:31] Robert Adams has been thinking of fixing C# to be a usable scripting language [11:31] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the single viewer being able to kil a region is a slight issue too.... [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: much credit to Melanie for getting scripting as good as it is, but I think it could be better still [11:31] OtakuMegane Desu needs to learn C# -_- [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: yea for sure, Xengine is pretty good for sure [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: things like sleeps though [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: suck [11:32] Robert Adams: it's not just SL2.... HighFIdelity and all the VW and AR stuff coming out... the pure client/server/viewer model of SL will be expanding [11:32] BlueWall Slade: it does a good job [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: preemptive multitasking.... [11:32] BlueWall Slade: some things are bottlenecked in it though [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: SL2 i dont see being much of a threat honestly [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: HighFidelity also not super impressed with what I have seen to date [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: unless they are hiding something from everyone [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I lost my head a bit in the new stuff. it only showed me that opensim is much better at points then the new things [11:33] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: LS2 goes to early alpha this summer supposedly, for peole with Maya skills [11:33] BlueWall Slade: they can wiggle their eyebrows when they talk [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: Highfidelty seems way to difficult to use for the masses [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and from what ive heard about SL2, it wont have collaberative prim style building [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Neb, it's just did the opposite for me. it showed me how good SL1 and opensim is [11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: SL2 will probably get marketed as a prettier 3D social network. :P [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i cant imagine how SL2 will succeed if they dont follow that model [11:33] Robert Adams: HiFi is the SL people making their second system [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: if its just pro modelers selling to consumers [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: thats a flawed plan [11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ++ [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: BlueMars flopped for same reason [11:34] Robert Adams: wonder what happened to Cloud Party... I thought that was a good thing before it disappeared [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, thats the first Meh Step. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: Yahoo bought them [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and shut it down [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think opensim need to spend more love in Hypergrid systems [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: god knows why [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but ultimately cloud part was also to difficult for the masses [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: was awesome display of what WebGL could do [11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it would be nice not to get spammed with FRs every time I come here [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: SL2 will probably have some neat technical aspects but I honestly doubt as to it being a raging success or anything. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but i think it was way to hard to use [11:35] Sarah Kline: they are developing it with Maya, but ordinary users will be able to use Blender ect when it comes out [11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: The say, SL2 will be more easy to use then SL1. uhmm SL1 where never hard to use. until the made SL3 viewer. :O but there still TPV's [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: use and create are 2 different things though [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: yes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: I suspect SL2 will be 2 different things [11:36] Robert Adams: when thinking of the future, rather than fretting over physics engines we need to think how to increase the number of OS developers and users [11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sarah, if i look at hifi. and i can. it dont gives me much trust in SL2 [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: webgl can do a lot but is still way behind what native opengl apps can do, and opengl is starting to become depricated in favor of newer API concepts such as vulkan [11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: The only thing that was ever a big learning curve for SL was building and scripting. Navigation and communicating was no worse than most MMOs [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Consumers and Sellers [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: Robert Adams, yes [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there will be very clear distinct lines and very little crossover [11:36] Robert Adams: what can we do differently than all those other systems to make us The One [11:36] BlueWall Slade: ++ Robert [11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: And that made me the comculsion that opensim is not bad and only can get better [11:36] Robert Adams: our current strength is that people can run their own regions/grids.... is there more we can do? [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure we can ever be "The One" [11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: better HG suppose [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: I've been in SL a bit lately, and jaws start dropping when I start talking about opensim [11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's the big selling point of opensim, really [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its david and goliath [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Also, the say its not hard to relearn lsl to C#. but are people willing to realearn everything ? [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: SL and Hifidelity literally have millions, 10's of millions of dollars in investment and development [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: DO yopu see people the whoel day with voice or oculus rift oin the head ? [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: david di come out ahead in that confrontation ;) [11:37]  Dahlia Trimble: I think animation is a big empty hole in SL/OpenSIm [11:37]  BlueWall Slade: But, Apache has great success as a web server. [11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's viewer-imposed as much as anything I think Dahlia [11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Opensim get at the point more people can go to it. [11:38]  BlueWall Slade: It doesnt' have to be backed by huge money. [11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: Aine, yes, but it needs to be addressed [11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Also virtual world on mobile phone. hmmm [11:38]  BlueWall Slade: Just huge interest [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:38]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: one armature that's pretty much locked is a major issue [11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: Too much money without proper management is more hindrance than help [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: I agree [11:38] BlueWall Slade: ++Desu [11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but getting away from that is a major task [11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: And frankly LL's management has sucked. Badly. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: Highfidlity seems to focused on wearable and HID type interfaces [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: within the last few days, a viewer has been released on android [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I have not tried it, I do not have an appropriate devcie [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you mean SL:GO Hiro? [11:39] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there would need to be support for armature transmission and handling in the viewers [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: or something else? [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: Hiro, a viewer for what? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: SLGO has been around for a while [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I'm not sure, I saw it in passing while rebuilding this box y/d [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and its not free [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: no this is new [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: and free [11:40] Robert Adams: and HiFi is trying to be the grid backend for multiple services (they provide accounts and asset store and people use their own servers) [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: To Google! [11:40] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That sound slike a bad direction nebadon. hid control [11:40] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: being able to put an armature on an object would be uber-cool though [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: intresting, ive not seen any free graphical android viewers [11:40] BlueWall Slade: Is HiFi their new version of OGP? [11:40] Robert Adams: if I win the lottery, I'm funding a new viewer.... but that's low probability [11:40] BlueWall Slade: haha [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: Robert Adams, sounds like they've been taking notes [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think there will be any interop between HiFi and SL2 [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: it's hard to render a lot of prims on android [11:40] BlueWall Slade: any news on that Mumble project? [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: SL2 will be a walled garden pretty sure [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: very hard [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: bbiaf [11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: in the view of all this. opensim is missing own viewer code. so you can go away from SL stuff if needed [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: well we should work on OnLook viewer [11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes neb, i dont see SL2 betetr as SL1 [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: we have no inetion of following SL with OnLook viewer [11:42] BlueWall Slade: I hope it can make a V3 styled interface :) [11:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hiro, this the one? http://mobilegridclient.com/ [11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: OnLook is fine, but I have no intention on working on LL code [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: one of the goals of OnLook is to have the Interface be programmable by the simulator [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: possibly with Javascript [11:42]  BlueWall Slade: we should make some things operate off web applications [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: so you can have custom hud automatically attach when you enter a sim [11:42]  BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: force different styles of view [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: like mouselook only [11:43]  Robert Adams: and I still use my Lumiya viewer on my phone.... in fact I attended last week's meeting here on my phone :) [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: no menus [11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhmm, did OSSL not have already command like that. or do you want experience tools nebadon ? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: relying on server side scripting is not good [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: we are talking about complete viewer mods [11:43] Robert Adams: but there have been no updates to Lumiya in a while... don't know what happened to the developer [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: controlled by the simulator itself [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: the ability to have different user levels have differnt huds [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: stuff you can not over ride [11:44] Ubit Umarov is Online [11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That spounds somethinmg to drive people nuts with :O [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: well it may not be suitable for an environment like OSgrid [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but say you want to do a RPG [11:45] Robert Adams: sometime you want RLV, sometimes you don't [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: or shooter style game [11:45] Dahlia Trimble: I could never figure out how to teleport to another sim in lumiya [11:45] BlueWall Slade: haha, if it changes so much from sim to sim that the user can't recognize the controls, yesh. [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: You'd need some kind of tag or warning about it, like the mature/PG thing. [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: nm lol [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Landmarks is the only way Dahlia [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:45] Robert Adams: both options should be possible, even in the user interface [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: its fs mobile [11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It's sounds still like you want some experience style tools. that can be intressting [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: avail only apr 1 [11:45] Ken Savage: I just got here, so I apollogize if it has already been discussed, but the only serious issue I hear complaints about anymore is teleports between var regions. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ah fs mobile is SLGO [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: :3 [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its not free [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: there is a monthly subscription [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and it doesnt support OS yet [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but will [11:46] BlueWall Slade: in what wy to teleports fail? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Diva emailed them about having OnLook be in that same portal [11:46] Robert Adams: Dahlia, to do a TP, you goto seearch, select 'place', and search for the destination region... when found, you can teleport to it [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if we ever heard back on that yet [11:46] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: TP in var regions work fine on my 0.8.1 [11:46] Robert Adams: took me a while to figure it out [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I have a mix of var + normal regions and they are pretty solid. [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: Robert, ty [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ah nice Robert [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i thought it was Landmarks only [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i could never find that either [11:47] Shez Oyen: Ken I have only seen that problem with Firestorm.. Replex lets you TP to any corner. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have to say though, lumiya runs pretty terrible on my devices [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have Galaxy Note 2 and Galaxy Note 8.0 [11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhmm, bad me, still need to test that viewer [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: not very good experience [11:47] Ken Savage: TP between 2 vars usually fails for most users if you stay very long on the var [11:47] BlueWall Slade: Yes, Firestorm does't figure out the region size, so you can only click the SW corener. [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i never have problems teleporting between vars myself [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and I do it a lot [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: dozens of times per day [11:48] BlueWall Slade: me either. [11:48] Shez Oyen: hmm haven't noticed that Ken. [11:48] Hiro Protagonist: I've not seen it on fs beta 64 [11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is FS aware of the problem? [11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only problem i see sometimes, and it happend straight after teleport, ;presence not found on the grid' message (or something like that) [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: I have problems with border crossings but could just be the old code running my vars [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: my vars are 100% 768x768 though [11:48] BlueWall Slade: maybe something else is causing it? [11:48] Ken Savage: For some reason it usually fails on the sims I am hosting Windows Server 64 [11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhmm, straight after login last time [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its possible larger vars could be problematic [11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not after TP, sometimes it happens random [11:48] BlueWall Slade: ++ on the 768m regions [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: I found 768x768 to be the most stable [11:48] Ken Savage: These are mostly 6x6 vars [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i once had a 4x4 and it was not stable [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: I have a few 1024s [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i use 3x3, but thinking about bigger [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I had a lot of junk though tere [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: so could be part of my problem [11:49] Robert Adams: there are problems with some viewers about the region size changing -- the original viewer code didn't expect region size to change so some values are static or global [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: I've found 512s suffer the least from the 'right click lag' issue and still arent tiny [11:49] Ken Savage: We have to TP to a normal sim, then we can go to the next var without issues [11:49] Robert Adams: I need to add some message suppression code to reduce that lag [11:49] BlueWall Slade: I have not been able to repo that click thing [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: I canr repro the right click thing [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: these are 6x6 you say Ken? [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: thats awful large if so [11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: *cant [11:50] BlueWall Slade: haha Dahlia [11:50] Shez Oyen: 768 is perfect for me too.. any bigger it seems to take the land too long to rez [11:50] Ken Savage: I saw the right click issue today too [11:50] Ken Savage: Yes 6x6 [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ken, for me TP is complete broiken. until relog. but maby it's soem othe rproblem too. so need to test it different [11:50] Robert Adams: it's caused by OS sending the WHOLE region parcel info whenever you right click [11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: It was easy to reproduce the right click issue on a var. On a normal region I couldn't. [11:50] Robert Adams: it doesn't need to be sent that often [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: I couldnt on a 768 [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: I recall Latif getting huffed up about going larger than 1024x1024 vars because of the terrain [11:50] Hiro Protagonist: it doesn't seem to affect regions noticably at 512 and less [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not that it too much to get him going [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:50] Ken Savage: TPs between normal sims seem to work fine for us, its just the vars [11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. 3x3 its only shame you cannot moved Keyframemotion avatars from one var to the other [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: ya terrain memory in the viewer is a problem [11:51] Robert Adams: the parcel info can get very big with large varregions [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: From my testing the right click issue would not be problematic as a single user but multiple users could bring a var to a halt [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:51] BlueWall Slade: I have not had a chance to try the Freaky Tech terrain patches. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: you can use like a gb of memory [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: because of the terrain if i recall [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: going to large [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: like 2048x2048 [11:51] BlueWall Slade: more parcels == worse ? [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: why do people need to right click so much anyway? [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: I run a couple that size [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: to build and script dahlia [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: many times a second? [11:52] Robert Adams: it will be worse for people with slower network connections [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: yea I mean if your willing to pay the price there is nothing wrong with going large [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but there is definitely a toll [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wich toll ? lol [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: A single user wouldn't but if you had say 6 or 8 users, it becomes more an issue [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: got to pay the terrain trolls [11:52] Hiro Protagonist: the right click problem is the only problem I have had witrh them [11:52] BlueWall Slade: pay the toll & don't be a troll [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: I only had to do 3-4 clicks per second to hit the lag on my attempt [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: when I build and script I probably right click maybe once every several minutes [11:53] BlueWall Slade: you right click the terrain? [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: your mileage will vary [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: not everyone works the same way [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: when I build I can right click prims a lot but you are talking about terrain? [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: welll, good infop about the var to think about [11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Right click terrain or objects [11:53] Robert Adams: slower connections and large varregions it is hard to edit -- the right click ot get the menu (parcel info), select object (parcel info), move (doesn't move) .... [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: it does this when you right click prims too [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dadix [11:53] Ken Savage: I ended up building on normal sims, then taking it to the var. [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: when you right click *anything* [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I may right click the terrain or objects to bring up the menu [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: same here Ken [11:53] BlueWall Slade: I havent' really seen it. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: that is odd for sure [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I dont seem to have the problem on my grid [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i do an insane amount of building in vars [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever have problems in vars [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: is building over the border [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: if you arent running vars >512m you probably would never notice [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: there is insane delays when building over borders [11:54] Robert Adams: the simulator is updating the parcel permissions in the viewer for edit and such [11:54] Ken Savage: Its more noticable on vars with lots of prims I think [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: sim edge borders [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: into a neighbor var [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have not seen it in 0.8.1 sofar [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: I have 1024s [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: As a single user you probably won't see it unless you or the server is on a slow connection [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: omg it drives me nuts [11:54] BlueWall Slade: ahhh, ok [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: but if i stay inside of the region i am standing in, never a problem [11:54] BlueWall Slade: groups calls too, I guess? [11:54] Robert Adams: like I did for terrain updates (only sending close by patches and updates), I need to reduce the parcel info transmissions [11:55] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        5b31bb9: 2015-03-16 23:48:16 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:55] Ken Savage: It seems vars dont like to be close to other sims either. It makes them laggy [11:55] Robert Adams: saddly they are not patched -- it is one block for the whole region [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: that sounds like some good work waiting to happen Robert [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: didnt Freaktech submit a patch to help with terrain? [11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: robert, the terrain is loading so much betetr in 0.8.1 [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: if you get something to test, let me know [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: to make the terrain peices fit inside MTU or TTL or something? [11:55] BlueWall Slade: Robert, did you see the Freaky Tech terrain patch mods? [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: I dont think it's just terrain [11:56] Ken Savage: Yes, terrain loading speed seems great now. [11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh. if larghe var's domnt wrok i want more small one stogheter [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: there are other parcel bitmaps [11:56] Robert Adams: 8.1 only sends terrain patches within your view distance... and it keeps track of what was sent for each avatar in the region [11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, I noticed that. Nice idea :) [11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and that works good. now the same for prims [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that threw me when we upgraded Encitra grid [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: you can no longer see the terrain in the nieghbor vars [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you move very close to them [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was a bug initially heh [11:57]  Shez Oyen: :/ [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: I was so used to seeing 1000s of meters of terrain [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: now i only see like 768m [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: then it turns ot ocean [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: which is fine because we use Mesh terrain anyway [11:57]  Robert Adams: I get flickering ocean on my system -- hate that [11:57]  Jim Jackson: hey Sam [11:58]  Samuel Greenway: Hi Jim [11:58]  Robert Adams: I want to figure out how to fill all the regions in that are in the distance [11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh robert, thats problem in sl to. uh,mm ctrl-shift-o i think solves it [11:58] Shez Oyen: Robert Firestorm seems to be worse on the flickering ocean than Replex... that's why I use Replex (I like a long draw) [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: what does ctrl+shift+o do? [11:58] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [11:59] Ken Savage: Yea, overall Sing or Replex behaves a lot better than FS. [11:59] Robert Adams: I want to build a single mesh representation of a populated region and then use those for distant views [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea i only use Replex lately [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: I tried FS recentllly while testing the var region tp issue. Horrible performance. :D Sticking to Singularity for now [11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only shame the use V1 menu style. and that start to bug me [12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: nothing is where it need to be [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: thats one of the reasons i like replex v1 style menus [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: the v3 menus are terrible [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: everythings hidden [12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: webpage say - ctrl-shift-o = Rendering > Object-Object Occlusion [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok thanks [12:00] Robert Adams: if I could get transparent dialogs to work in Singularity I'd be happy [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: I use Replex mainly for the skin [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yea same Dahlia [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: definitely the best skin in town [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:01] BlueWall Slade: control keys dont' work right in Sng if you press shift with multiple keys [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its not hard to move that skin to singularity though [12:01] BlueWall Slade: Fwd + Shft+ Right [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: I have really bad vision and the skin in singu doesnt help me at all [12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ++ [12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: really need to install replex [12:01] Ken Savage: Yea, FS is even worse with the var tp issue for sure. [12:01] dadix forever: maybe it;s time to talk about voxel integration in opensim ? :) [12:02] BlueWall Slade: talk to the viewer peeps [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: heh voxels [12:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: this one right ? http://www.replex.org/wp/ [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Richardus [12:02]  Robert Adams: again a viewer problem... we do need an OS viewer [12:02]  BlueWall Slade: ++1000 [12:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: The problem is getting enough people together to make it [12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Oh dahlia, about bad vision. one of the reason why i dont like SL2 it seems not on the priority list. and hifi am not sure. [12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: voxel integration in opensim http://dahliaisland.wwweb3d.net:8099/screenshots/wtfMinecruft.jpg [12:03]  dadix forever: yes a new viewer with voxel suport is the best idea [12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: robert ++++++++++unlimited [12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: unfortunately the viewer didnt like all those voxels :/ [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I am not a huge fan of traditional boxy voxel [12:03] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: seems like a step backwards to me [12:04]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think the boxy voxels is not the right way [12:04] BlueWall Slade: C64 Sim [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it just looks so terrible to me [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i hate minecraft [12:04] Cuteulala Artis is Online [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: burns my eyesz [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: The Minecraft way XD [12:04]  dadix forever: lol, voxel it's the future, what do you say ? [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: lol [12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: I love Minecraft but it's a block world, so the look works. Opensim is not a block world. [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: well i like voxels that interpolate and look smooth [12:04] Robert Adams: most of the voxel viewers (that don't do blocky but do heiarchical object representation) move all the display logic into the shaders... that's how they get the performance [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: but voxels represented as chunky ass non aliased boxes [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: looks like poo to me [12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: voxels get a lot of hype but I still haven't seen the killer voxel app yet [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: cept maybe minecraft [12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Neb, craft some ace to shape the voxel [12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ace = axe [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: there was one app i saw that was not really voxels but worked like voxels [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: that totally blew my mind [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i forget what its called now [12:05] dadix forever: there are so many nebadon. just search on youtube [12:06] Robert Adams: and the voxel model lends itself to procedural generation which is all the rage at the moment [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: the problem with voxels is they are very difficult to render, and SL-like content is already very difficult to render [12:06] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: mixing them would kill a GPU [12:07] Ken Savage: But if it doesn't look more realistic, its not a valid option. [12:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But, what you want with voxels if you still dont have some real opensim viewer [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: here [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClzSvcwdGx9v66YRza5u_Mg [12:07] Robert Adams: and the heiarchical representation enables infinite view and such... whole worlds [12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Minecraft you'd think is easy, you'r just rendering cubes but it's not an especially lightweight thing [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: Atomontage Engine [12:07] Cuteulala Artis is Online [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: pretty insane [12:07] dadix forever: voxel system is the most realistic system [12:07] dadix forever: look at voxel farm and teravoxel [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: rendering a zillion cubes is NOT easy [12:07] dadix forever: oun youtube [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea I agree its cool [12:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Nop.e BUt most people think it is lol [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: but I have not seen anyone do a Complete virtual world [12:08] BlueWall Slade: are they real time multi-user? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: transimitting that data in realtime to 100s of users is not easy [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: no ones done it yet [12:08] BlueWall Slade: they may render like blender moves? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: other than terrible looking minecraft [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Minecraft can look pretty damn good, especially with shaders [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: its still cubetastic though [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: just nice shaders [12:09] Robert Adams: and it is how hollywood is representing space... check out OpenVDB which is a Dreamworks project for storing rendering spaces [12:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the only thing with voxels. if its small scaled. it could be a new way to create mesh objects. build it with voxels convert it into mesh [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is cool too Robert [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its one thing to make cool Voxel demos [12:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Well if ya don't like cubes then yeah, you'll never be happy with MC. :) [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its another to make a complete Massively Online world with one [12:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and transmit it real time [12:10]  Dahlia Trimble: ya a cool looking demo doesnt mean a practical application [12:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Minecraft is sometimes fun. it's simpel. so it reset the mind :P [12:10]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [12:10]  Robert Adams: HiFI uses a hiearchical data structure to store its meshes and objects.... rather than 'fetch the contents of a region' it is 'fetch the objects in this space' [12:11]  Dahlia Trimble: usually a lot of smoke and mirrors in those cool looking demos [12:11]  OtakuMegane Desu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7esJZJcK6kg [12:11]  Ubit Umarov is Online [12:11]  BlueWall Slade: I made a 3d movie in the '90s, but it took a weekend on several machines to render it :) [12:11] Hiro Protagonist: hahah same here Blue [12:11] Dahlia Trimble: lol [12:11] Hiro Protagonist: lets try this with replex [12:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I remember rendering stuff back then [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: I have a 3ds max scene that takes 45 minutes per frame to render :D [12:12] dadix forever: please look at this clip about voxels in games : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouqZIfOe8E [12:12] BlueWall Slade: :) [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone ever use Autodesk Animator in DOS [12:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: try doing really good cloth simulations if you really want long rendering times.... [12:12]  dadix forever: when you will have some time [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: that program is what single handidly got me interested in Computer graphics [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: awesome program [12:13]  BlueWall Slade: that might be what I used - it was Autocad with some architectural packages [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodesk_Animator [12:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: making stuff for Morrowind and Oblivion is what got me hooked [12:14]  Hiro Protagonist: I used cinema4d+aftereffects (on a g4 powermac :D) [12:14]  Lance Fang is Online [12:14]  Ubit Umarov is Offline [12:14]  Robert Adams: I've gotta run.... if anyone would like to talk about making an OS renderer, send me email [12:14] Robert Adams: I'd like to explore that impossible problem [12:14] Hiro Protagonist: :O [12:14] Nicklas Hansome: hello guys how are you [12:14] Hiro Protagonist: tc Robert [12:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bye Robert [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia has some good starts :) [12:15]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bye [12:15]  Dahlia Trimble: ya I guess I go too, bye all :) [12:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye robnert [12:15] Shez Oyen: BB Robert [12:15] Hiro Protagonist: thanks man! [12:15] ladyjo martin is Online [12:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and actually I need to run too...have a great week everyone [12:15] Ubit Umarov is Online [12:15] Robert Adams is Offline [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks everyone, same time next week :)