Chat log from the meeting on 2010-03-23

[08:58] Sarvana Cherry is Online

[08:59] Tesira Luco is Online

[09:00] Revolution Smythe is Online

[09:01] Revolution Smythe: hey nebadon

[09:13] Nebadon Izumi: yo

[09:13] Nebadon Izumi: sorry was afk

[09:14] Alby Damden is Online

[09:17] Tesira Luco is Offline

[09:18] Tesira Luco is Online

[09:18] Revolution Smythe: hey

[09:19] Revolution Smythe: whens the meeting today?

[09:19] Nebadon Izumi: heh not sure actually were still in the grey zone this week

[09:19] Nebadon Izumi: thats why im here early

[09:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[09:19] Revolution Smythe: hehe

[09:19] Nebadon Izumi: i think next week we should be back to a normal

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: EU will be on summer time

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: or maybe it is now

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[09:20] Revolution Smythe: lol

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: i hate this stupid timzone stuff

[09:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[09:20] Revolution Smythe: yep

[09:21] Nebadon Izumi: we finally got a SSL cert last night for osgrid

[09:21] Nebadon Izumi: were probably going to make the new Web interface all use SSL

[09:21] Revolution Smythe: great

[09:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya start tightening things up a bit

[09:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[09:31] Nebadon Izumi: brb afk a few

[09:34] Ella Trinie is Online

[09:53] Ella Trinie is Offline

[09:54] Adelle Fitzgerald is Online

[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: im gonna head inside building and have a seat

[10:03] Revolution Smythe: k

[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: adelle should be here in a minute

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi :)

[10:05] Revolution Smythe: hey Adelle

[10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: hiya :)

[10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: do i ahve my top on this week? lol

[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya

[10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe this server got shut down last night

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i guess there might have been some kind of maintence going on at the data center

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: was scheduled i think

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up calling them cause 20 minutes later it still hadnt come back

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: but right as i am talking with the guy it came back

[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: of course

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: guess it was doing a fsck or something

[10:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe

[10:07] oggie wingtips is Offline

[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe im just glad it didnt die

[10:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah

[10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: this region is on Plaza02, right?

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: oww that could have been nasty

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: did you get disconnected from the SSH ?

[10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: i havent had SSH to either of the linux boxes running for the past could of days

[10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh

[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ah

[10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: im connected to plaza04

[10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: just not 02

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya that ones been running well

[10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe i was

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: though i gotta look at sandbox plaza II soon

[10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have that many windows open these days, my taskbar is a nightrame to navigate some times hehe

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i see 1000's of bullets on the console

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: looks like it might need some cleaning

[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha

[10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, just load the oar over it

[10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: that worked a treat last time i did them

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just worry im gonna screw up someones work

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i like to look 1st

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: before i just eradicate it

[10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh yeah, i do that

[10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: just go and return a load of stuff

[10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: and then load the oar

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling the most of the meeting people wont be here for another 50 minutes

[10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: also, ive noticed the past coupld of days that Lbsa has stayed up for like 8 hours when i check it in the morning

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: its been running pretty good

[10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: so, all this crashing thing with it, im wondering if it is a user there

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: 8 hours is good for lbsa

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: oh likely it is

[10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: apparently it was crashing like every 20 mins or something

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: people start throwing inventory around too

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats when it starts getting bad

[10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: according to skelito

[10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: if you and i just started throwing inventory to everyone it probably wouldnt last a whole 20 minutes even

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: but seems every time i check it, its been running for a good couple of hours

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe eyah

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i still blame inventory for most thread locks and region badness

[10:12] Tesira Luco is Offline

[10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, if i even open my inventory sometimes the sim will start locking threads

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: if a few people do it it never recoverrs

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: why were seeing so many 0fps i think

[10:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[10:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, makes sense

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: though things like physics are a factor too

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: needs lots of optimizing

[10:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: usually, if i clear my cache and log into one of my regions, the incomming packets thread locks or dies, i think that is inventory related, as it never sems to do it once my inventory has loaded on that region

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: its requesting your entire inventory to fast or something

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: needs throtteling

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: it overwhelms everything else

[10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald nods

[10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: im ove 9k now

[10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: *over

[10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: so i think its starting to get even more wobbly hehe

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: 21323 here

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: i could prolly loose 2k though if i just cleaned the damn thing out lol

[10:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha, thats loads

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh i think i found a problem with sculptie meshing

[10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i need to test on head really

[10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: seems that if you mirror a sculptie, the mesh doesnt mirror with it

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: interesting

[10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: it may do after a restart though, i havent tried that

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: how about if you phantom and unphantom it?

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: tried that, same thing

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: be interesting to know

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ah

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: if that doesnt work

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect a restart wont either

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia will want to know about that

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: i still want to test all options though before submitting a mantis

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: i only found out whilst getting stuck in tree roots lol

[10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive made a giant treehouse lol

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ah nice

[10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: with big roots on the ground, and you can walk into them (the mirrored sculpties) and never get out

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ahaa

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: is this starting with my tree?

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: that makes total sense

[10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: no, this is Franta's

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: why we cant walk down the paths in some of my sims

[10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its like you hit an invisible wall

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: i was testing with one of the tree stumps from the freebie garden

[10:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt be bothered with trying to figure it out at the time

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: was doing so much other stuff

[10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: if you get a stump, and mirror it, you can fly half into one side, but hit an invisible wall on the other, where the mesh used to be when not mirrored

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: nice find

[10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: it shifts the sculpt over to one side, but not the mesh

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: im sure Dahlia can fix that up quick

[10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, its prolly a quick fix

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh id say at this point its confirmed though

[10:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: i want to doubly check though, and also find something real obvious i can give Dahlia that she can test with

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: cool well the pink tree outside i know

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats the one giving me greif in all these spots

[10:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: see

[10:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: thats mirrored now

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya

[10:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[10:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: it needs to be about 3 times the size really to get the full effect

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty obvious with this

[10:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah

[10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: infact i may be able to find a sculpt that is completely offset to one side that would make it even more obvious

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: dang did we freeze?

[10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: dunno

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: oh no there goes

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe

[10:27] UUID Speaker: john sutten: a4a1a782-d081-92c0-d4fd-0db9ca8f814f

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah someone logging in

[10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh

[10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe at least we have good sculptie meshes though, not like the old cube in SL

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: i need to pack up the beast bike prims one of these days

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: as prim kits

[10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: buld your own?

[10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe

[10:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think you may have given me a copy of the prims or maps

[10:29] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[10:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: i could build a V-Twin supercharged uni-cycle with it lol

[10:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: hmm no, amybe not

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya at one point i did post a link on IRC with a zip to the textures

[10:31] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh taht might have been it

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ive been sorting them out at my sandbox to put into kits

[10:31] Revolution Smythe is Online

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hope at some point were able to assmeble it into some kind of bike

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: lots of cool shapes anyway

[10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: hahaa

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: for all kinds of stuff

[10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah

[10:32] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hello... and excuse me for interrupting... :)

[10:32] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hoping to speak with you Neb...

[10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello lisa

[10:32] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Adelle

[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: k

[10:37] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[10:37] UUID Speaker: john sutten: a4a1a782-d081-92c0-d4fd-0db9ca8f814f

[10:50] UUID Speaker: XO XAL: 9d86e8c2-1d43-80f8-1958-fa0f7fe250c0

[10:53] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[10:54] Ruben Haan: hello everybody

[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello Ruben

[10:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello

[10:54] Ruben Haan: :)

[10:54] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Ruben

[10:54] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Rich...

[10:54] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: yay!

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya dunno if anyones showing up today or not

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: been kind of a dead week for patches too

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to try to setup a Simian backed grid later today

[10:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: running from my godaddy.com shared website

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: for 15$ a month

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:59] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[10:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: you can run it from a webserver?

[10:59] Juicy Babii: Greet'n's

[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: its pure php

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: nice

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya should be interesting

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: might be something we eventually move too here

[11:00] Edie Stewart is Online

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: since simian stuff is starting to hit core now

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: it makes it more feasible

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: so it simply uses apache for serving assets?

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: for everything

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: not just assets

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: the whole grid?

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: awesome

[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justinc

[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: Things seems to get a bit unstable the last time. and newer viewers are not ok.

[11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Justin

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hey nebadon, adelle, folks

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: with Simian Richardus?

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: talking about siminagrid?

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: simiangrid

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to setup a simian grid maybe today

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i started last night

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: cool

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: got all the files in place

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: now just gotta figure out how to configure it

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i bought a new godaddy website for onikenkon

[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: No. here. but its also my memory on server. but with viewers. imprudence 1.3b2 not ok to. only 1.2.0 seems ok

[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: www.onikenkon.com

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: figure i'll setup a small simian test grid there

[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: someone told me more viewers have problems

[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: website coming soon?

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: if it works you will be able to run a grid from a 15$ a month shared web account

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya theres not much there

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: i just signed up about 2-3 nights ago

[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey grins

[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: whats siminian grid ?

[11:02] Juicy Babii re-greets

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: its the Intel/Libomv PHP grid services

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: replaces the URM

[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: or Robust

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: pure PHP running in Apahce2

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: nothing like a bit of competition

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: its probably about 10-20 times more efficient than even the best C# http server is

[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: not sure why imprudence seems only to crash at WP

[11:03] Richardus Raymaker: aah

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it probablyi is going to be considerably better

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: be very interesting to see the results

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: its got a long way to go though before its useable in this scale too

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: you've been talking with jhurliman?

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: but it might be a good way for OSgrid to go in the future

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya a bit

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: and Mic too

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: though ive been neck deep in OSgrid stuff lately

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: few weeks late on the testing

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: cool. How is the 0.7pre test stuff going? It seems the Intel folks have a test grid which isn't suffering too many problems

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ive not gotten into the Intel simian grid yet

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: the emails im getting though make it sound like its working mostly

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: the Web Interface is very basic though

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: its like create account and login

[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: but its a start

[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: curious how it wil go work with apache. because i run virtual servers on it to

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounds like everybody has to reconstruct their web interfaces with the database changes

[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: /need to make maby some

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm thinking of starting to push properly on 0.6.9 though - which would be pre-ROBUST

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: er, pre presence0-refactor, that is

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya pretty much its the Web Interface holocaust

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: they all either need to be refactored or rebuilt from scratch

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: were getting there

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it needed doing though

[11:08] Edie Stewart is Online

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: this is one of the reasons i tried stressing to everyone not to devote to much resources to the older stuff

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: like Redux

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i did about all I could do to warn people

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but no one listened

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. But is there any doc on the new db structures? Hard for people to adapt if there isn't

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: not yet, diva and mel are actually still working out the migration routines

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then documentation comes

[11:09] Juicy Babii cringes at the question about doc

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: things "may" change

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. I'm seriously starting to think about proposing some kind of big warning in trunk by default

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: though it would easily be turned off by changing an ini setting

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to think people would listen to us

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but the fact is they wont

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe even something on the 'default' island - like a big red sign saying "DON@T USE THIS!"

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: they wont have concern until after its too late

[11:10] Revolution Smythe: they should have finished migration before they pushed presence refactor into core

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: well it requires testing

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, master isn't meant to be working all the time - it's very hard to do a big change like that outside

[11:11] Revolution Smythe: yes, but not as its being put together

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: a refactor of this magniture

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its just not something thats going to be easy

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we need to move away from a culture of people updaing directly from Master unless they are testers or developers

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i think after this refactor though

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely to happen on this scale again

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I bloody hope not :)

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: to me though things are going well

[11:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[11:12] Edie Stewart is Offline

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: were not ready to migrate anyway

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: even if the migration routines were ready today

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it would be weeks/months before OSgrid could migrate

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: because of the web interfae

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: uh huh

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: interface*

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[11:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: we need to test migration, over and over until we get it 100% first time

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: thats the real deal killer right now

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: not the migration

[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's real tricky for you folks

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the reason they are dragging their feet on the migration routines

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: because not one single person has started a new web interface yet

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so even if it was all ready by mel and diva

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: no one could migrate

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey nods

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so its good we have time to do it right

[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: i think you can get 99.5 100% thats really good if you get that

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: better to take the time and do it right

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, too many people update from Master

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: than rush it out because people are impatient

[11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: Richardus, if that 0.5% is the user database or something, it will destroy the whole grid, we need to get ti 100%, imho

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: 101%

[11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe ya

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: needs testing before we pull the trigger for live use

[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: ok. sorry missed the line. you talk about 100% ugaim..

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and were there

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: testing is going well

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but it will never be fast enough

[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as it's in process I think that's okay. Better to be patient and get it right than rush it and have a grid meltdown

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise we will be doing big refactors again

[11:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol 3000 screaming users, nope thanks lol

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, and they're not even paying ;)

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya but people are paying with their time

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and we do have a lot of people donating

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I guess so

[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: donations are doing quite well

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: cool

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: plus we have alot of stuff going on behind the scenes too right now

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: like developing our TOS

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: lots of the typical corporate nonsense stuff

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: ah yes - people on the linden open source list seem to be quite unhappy about the third party viewer policy

[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: considering our lack of resources and staff, were still moving pretty good

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: the bane of any charity perhaps :)

[11:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: probably so

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya has their 3rd party policy changed recently?

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: there have been revisions, but the legalese is difficult to reconcile with the gpl

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: most of the current viewers probably dont have much life left on SL anyway

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: some people think it effectively prevents them from doing any third party development

[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: once 2.0 gets forced

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: no?

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know - I feel that the development side of Linden do want to improve their open-source engagement

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: well its likely sometime in the next year they will cut off 1.23 viewers

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: and probably most of the mgmt too

[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but 2.0 code will be open-sourced, at least the core parts

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but its starting over for all these projjects

[11:19] Richardus Raymaker: im back to emerald, because sl1 is bad and missing options. (about 2 i dont talk)

[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are porting much old code over

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: all those viewer projects are fragmented anyway because linden don't really do public development

[11:20] Juicy Babii: They might be porting over the memory leaks

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: they just push code drops out from their behind-the-firewall source repository

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya well SL needs to do something

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: theft and abuse is so rampant there

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: their viewer policy has not benefited SL

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its benefited the users

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but not the core system

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the core system gets soo abused over there

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: but isn't benefitting the users benefitting sl?

[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean?

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not suprising tehy are removing liberties

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: well all these hack viewers

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that let people steal

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: and abuse regions

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: im sure thats not the picture LL was trying to paint

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: when they did open source viewer

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with the LL method of OpenSource

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I think Linden always wanted to be more like the web than like a traditional MMORPG

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: is the back end is closed

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: were back at the microsoft way of things

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: a small group of people fixes a large pool of problems

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and meanwhile its hackers delight

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: where as with say linux its totally open, and the hackers get the shaft

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: hehe

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: JCC, i think opensim wil win that

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: well, some of that stuff would be very difficult to prevent, such as content stealing

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya true

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: they get the shaft?

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly not the same issue

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: well Linux ends up being the most secure platform

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: I think it's in the balance - I don't think we have enough comitters, to be honest

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: because everyone knows where the bugs are

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and everyone can fix them

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unlike microsoft

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: where hackers know about bugs months before microsoft does

[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: true. But content stealing is almost unfixable

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: theres no real easy fix

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but its not suprising to me to see LL pulling liberties away

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: that was my point i guess

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno though i guess im just getting tired of hearing about the SL problems

[11:25] Richardus Raymaker: JCC. its neve rfixable. with nothing

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i know alot of top builders there

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and i seriously dont know any that are happy

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: most are contemplating leaving SL

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but have no where to go

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: so tehy linger

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we can stop talking about it :) But SL problems will have a big impact on us for quite a while

[11:25] Juicy Babii: or are downsizing

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: they still see osgrid/opensim as too immature?

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya i dont mind talking about it

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but what im getting tired of is hearing from the user base there and LL not responding it seems

[11:25] Richardus Raymaker: the call it wild west here

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: well most want more protections

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: not less

[11:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: most are talking of moving to bluemars

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: because its more restrictive / harder to steal

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: but bluemars is blowing that opportunity

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: with their feet dragging

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I need to go back and try bluemars. Seemed very clunkly last time i tried

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: oh its unchanged

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: dont even bother

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I did go on Sony Home recently though and it was pretty good! Lots of new content

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its not changed 1 bit in 12 months

[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: bluemars, where you cannot build inworld. still sounds a useless grid

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i was there about 3 weeks ago

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: really? That's poor

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: and absolutly nothing has changed that i could tell

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not a fun experience

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its a confusing/ disappointing experience at best

[11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: i can still not get it to even run :-/

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: theres absolutly nothing there you can do as a user

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: except walk around and go

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ooh pretty

[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey laughs

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: my hair is bouncy

[11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: i wanna see this floaty wavey hair Diva went crazy about lol

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, sound like sl. cannot do much tehre to if you dont have land. :O

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well in SL there is 1000s of interactive sims

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: agree

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: go find something you can do interactviely in bluemars

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dare you

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i have no problem promoting bluemars

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: i deleted me beta account..

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: cause its so bad

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: never been there when others sayed its bad

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: people will run back here begging for lessons

[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey grins

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmmm, we have our own issues ;)

[11:29] Revolution Smythe: lol

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: we do, but from the user end

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: most "users" have fun here

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: server admins might not have the funnest of times

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but i think the users to enjoy being here

[11:29] Revolution Smythe: except when things go wrong

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ive yet to have even 1 second of fun in bluemars

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: it's still extremely early days

[11:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think on the whole the attitude here is pretty positive

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ive scratched my chin raw trying to figure out what the heck their plan is

[11:30] Revolution Smythe: Adelle: yes

[11:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: once people accept the limitations of opensim

[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: some people worry that opensim isn't improving fast enough

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya but whats fast enough too

[11:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: once they get over the 'zomg there is no monies??' then they are pretty much 'oh, ok, lets go party' lol

[11:30] Revolution Smythe: lol

[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i think the people who say its not happening fast enough, have financial stake in it

[11:31] Juicy Babii: :) @ Adele

[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: i dont know how sl where in the begin. but it cant be much better the OSGRID now

[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, and don't seem to contribute much...

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: personally i think anyone who is truly contributing to opensimulator could not possibly think that

[11:31] Revolution Smythe: heh

[11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: Richardus, 5 years ago in SL was very much less than what opensim is now

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: they do promote it in other ways though, and try to use it... I'm not sure - I'm just worried that we haven't had a new comitter for quite a long while now

[11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: except it had economy

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya it is suprising we dont have more people contributing patches

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I think economy ultimately does have to happen via the web and out-of-world

[11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think it is the economy there that drove it to what it is now

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but this codebase is so huge too

[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes - it's my chief worry.

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its also not that suprising people are indimidated

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: intimidated*

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah that's one of my theories - the codebase is so big and complicated that people have a hard time getting their head around it

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: yes adella, but it seems many people dont think sofar back

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder if anything can be done about that

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya its like jumping into MySQL year 3

[11:33] Revolution Smythe: maybe its not just the code as well

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: teach me C# and i will patch stuff hehe

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: didn't you do a few patches? I seem to remember a few

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe im still working on the time travel phase of the learn C# in 21 days

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: nope, never submitted any

[11:34] Revolution Smythe: lol

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol neb

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have submitted a few mantis' though

[11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: but never any patches

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's really people who would be fanatical about OpenSim working properly

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: and are l33t coders.... :)

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i think too after this refactor is done

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: people may be more inclined to get involved

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right now its so foncusing

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: confusing*

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I hope you're right :)

[11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think that too

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right now OSgrid isnt running core

[11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: people are just waiting for it to all start up again

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats a big reason too that patches have stalled a bit i think

[11:36] Adelle Fitzgerald: and its not going to start without some form of WI

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the real kicker, the web interface that no one wants to work on

[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: this is one counter-argument to core being too broken. If it's too broken then people don't run it and we get a drop off in patches

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: oh i agree

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: alot of testers/devs live on osgrid too

[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: like dahlia

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and have stated their work is on hold

[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: people do run the simulator from core though

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: until the refactor is more complete

[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: that has never changed

[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: only the grid services

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, didn't know that

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but we got dahlia on danger grid

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so she was able to resume her dev work

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but thats just 1 person

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt others feel the same

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: Revolution probably has similar feelings

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but i wont speak for him

[11:38] Revolution Smythe: yep

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it has been a pretty confusing last 9 months and I'll be glad to see the back of the ROBUST changes

[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: the main problem is that devs dont have an environment where they can test patches properly

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: btw revolution

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: what do you mean?

[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: its one thing testing in standalone, but different in a grid environment

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: if it in anyway could help you for patches we could put you onto the danger grid also

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: same for you justin

[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: just say the word

[11:38] Revolution Smythe: i wont be submitting any more patches to opensim core

[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: true - I never look forward to testing in grid since it's a pain to set up

[11:39] Adelle Fitzgerald: there are some thing that can be done in standalone, but others that require a grid backend

[11:39] Lee Oldrich: Do we have a changeover date for the refactored codebase to go live in OSG yet?

[11:39] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh you will love the post p-r then Justin

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: no Lee

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: maybe one day :)

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: not right now

[11:39] Adelle Fitzgerald: it took me about 10 minutes to set up a grid at home

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya if theres anything we can do to accomidate your testing needs

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: just let us know

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, just starting one robust executable should be easier in the future

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: after going through the new robust

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: assuming that the bugs properly show up if everything is in one place :)

[11:40] Adelle Fitzgerald: one DB, one exe, and very little config

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: once its fully documented and were past the migration / web interface

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be monumentally easier to get opensim grid running

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it will be the same to get a grid running as it is to get a standalone

[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: there will not be much difference

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it will have been worth it

[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it will involve starting two executables rather than one and setting up OpenSim.Server.ini

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i can state that without hesitation

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but it makes so much more sense in the end

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: a year ago it took 5 services

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: to get a grid

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: so to get it down to 2 services is awesome

[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: overall its alot easier i would have to say

[11:42] Revolution Smythe: it took 6 last year

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but the lack of documentation right now makes it very confussing

[11:42] Revolution Smythe: UGAIM + R

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya hehe

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i meant for the back end

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - and it's difficult to write ti unless you wrote the code

[11:42] Revolution Smythe: then its one this year

[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: the first test grid i set up took me best part of 4 hours (agreed i didnt knwo what i do now), but I didnt setup a grid until a couple of weeks ago, post p-r, and it literally took 10 minutes

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: otherwise you have to spend ages working out what the hell [people have done and testing stuff - very discouraging

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: cool

[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i think Divas biggest problem is shes also a full time college professor also

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: if she was full time opensim this would haev probably been done already

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: well, pretty much all of us have full time jobs

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya Melanie aside who has made opensim dev her full time job

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and also Adam

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but they have such a high work load with opensim its not much differnt

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: are you still doing OS stuff primarily justin?

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I'm working for Intel atm

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: application stuff though - not so much that requires OpenSim core changes

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: doing some interesting boundary pushing stuff - hopefully the generic parts can become public at some point

[11:46] Lee Oldrich: Sounds to the untrained ear like things are stalling?

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: probably not - I just like to focus on the negative to see where we can improve :)

[11:47] Lee Oldrich: I like that

[11:47] Lee Oldrich: So we don't have any date for the switchover Neb? I thought I heard you say that a while back....

[11:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: no date yet

[11:48] Adelle Fitzgerald: as it stands we dont even have an idea of a date

[11:48] Lee Oldrich: ok

[11:48] Adelle Fitzgerald: there is a lot of work to be done still

[11:48] Adelle Fitzgerald: mainly getting an new web interface written

[11:48] Adelle Fitzgerald: once we have some form of usuable WI, then we can start testing further

[11:49] Lee Oldrich: Well - again from the untrained ear - I can tell you that the uncertainty of that switchover is what's causing a lot of the general unease about OSG right now among the user base

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: heh sorry back, had rice on stove almost burned it

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: nice though

[11:49] Lee Oldrich: Burnt rice = hammer and chisel time

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: well, this is not historically unusally - traditionally open-source project stuff happens when things are ready

[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: give nebadon webcam with videoprim

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: very difficult to timetable volunteer-led projects

[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya things can change drasticly over night

[11:50] Lee Oldrich: nods

[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or not happen for months

[11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: the switch over wont affect users at all, and all that will be required of region ops is that they update

[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: one of the pitfalls of such an open project

[11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: it really will be as simple as that

[11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: so there is no need for unease at all

[11:50] Lee Oldrich: Completely understand that - I'm just trying to fairly convey emotions and sentiments I've been hearing is all - it's just another data point.

[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya once things are perfected it will be pretty much download the new simulator/configs from website

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: :) fair enough

[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and restart

[11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: at least that is the way we are planning it, so its not something we are going to rush into in the slightest

[11:51] Lee Oldrich: How certain are we that the changeover will in fact be that painless?

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: well right now its pure pain

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: thats why we have not started the process yet

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:51] Lee Oldrich: I ask because I know of more than a few people who are so scared they're preparing for a post OSG world if they can't transfer their regions over easily

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect when we are ready

[11:51] Adelle Fitzgerald: it will be no different than a regular region bump, and a reconfig of the config files

[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: it will be no differnt than any other update people will do

[11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: its been done before, on a few occasions

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: remember we have backup servers too

[11:52] Lee Oldrich: nods

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if things go horribly wrongt

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we will simply just fall back to the old methods

[11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: sure people ahve hiccups and stuff, but that will always happen

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: and regroup and figure out what it takes to move forward

[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: as long the regions have backups to

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: well thats standard operating procedure

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have backup methods right now

[11:52] Lee Oldrich: So - let me throw a thought out there - could we put something out that will asuage these fears? Maybe something that is more PR than tech.

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: your already screwing up

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps but right now its just hang tight

[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: we have already been saying this over and over Lee

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you look at the login screen it should talk about some of this

[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: i suspect something of chinese whispers are happening

[11:53] Lee Oldrich: Well - not exactly - atleast that's not what I've been hearing the interpretations to be

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: right now we cant say much of anything but sit tight and hang in there

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: well the best thing to do is direct those people to post on the forums

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: with their specific concerns

[11:54] Lee Oldrich: The statements on the front page of teh OSG splash screen when you log in can be taken badly if read the wrong way with little knowledge of the process

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: from a user perspective though

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: nothing will change

[11:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: if people dont understand that notice, they shouldnt be running opensim, imho

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i agree

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: if its just users were talking about and not grid ops

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: then there wont be any noticable change in the end

[11:55] Lee Oldrich: Adelle: Maybe - but unfortunately it's the cultural norm for people to passively react and collectvely cause a general dissatisfaction "Chinese Whispers" if you will.

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the process will likely be almost the same it is now, the website will change

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: posibly drasticly but not so much you wouldnt be able to understand those changes

[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: im just used to this one. lol

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: our goal is to recreate it like it is now, atleast functionality wise

[11:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: Lee, there is little we can do about that in all fairness, how people interpret stuff is upto them really

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Lee no matter what we do

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: people are going to be that way

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: we could post a new warning everyday

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and then when the time comes

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: a few 100 people will act like we didnt warn them

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty typical, and probably not something we should spend all our time on either

[11:57] WhiteStar Magic is Online

[11:57] Lee Oldrich: I thin maybethinking a little less about warnings and maybe more about positive messages conveyed in multiple channels could yield some better feelings among the users is all

[11:57] Revolution Smythe: hey Whitestar

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: well right now i just cant really do that honestly

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not without lieing

[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: must see, i always only look for the image and the login button

[11:57] WhiteStar Magic: hey folks

[11:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: as with any major bump, we will perform it at the grid, we will supply a rev of opensim that people can download, already pretty much configured, and those that want to compile their own, they ahve IRC for help

[11:57] Lee Oldrich: Hi Whitestar

[11:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi WS

[11:57] WhiteStar Magic: I guess I'm kinda late for teh meetin eh

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: people are just going to have to be patient

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if they arent nothing i will say is going to change that really

[11:58] Juicy Babii: This is the fun part of the meeting: the after-meeting free-for-all

[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we do have to bea rin mind that openSim is very primtiive. If anything, it's better to actively discourage people who don't know what they're letting themselves in for

[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hey whitestar

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: your more likely to find me chasing people away from this grid still

[11:58] Juicy Babii: for which I've been patiently waiting to ask a question about Voice. But I can wait.

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: than trying to make people who dont belong here feel good

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: juicy: hey, you can ask any time - don't think it will be positive though :)

[11:59] Juicy Babii: lols

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: what i dont want to do is sugar coat things

[11:59] Juicy Babii: just wishing to get Voice active for more than 1 Region

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: just to make people feel better

[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: voice is languishing a bit

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi whitestar

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: id rather people be uncomfortable a bit and then get directly involved in making it better

[11:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: i really really hope there is some juicy april fools joke goes on this year, to remind people of what opensim exactly is hehe

[12:00] Revolution Smythe: lol

[12:00] Juicy Babii: we have people here trying to plug in speech recognition and machine translation of Voice

[12:00] Lee Oldrich: Justin: I agree that pepole coming into this should have a certain understanding of the technicalities. Unfortunately you don't have that controlled influx now. What you have is a mass influx from SL of people with expectations that are being reshaped very quickly. This is a social problem - not a technical one.

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: Do you think there are any solutions to that?

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortuantly OSgrid should not be considered a social platform

[12:00] WhiteStar Magic: it's a mix of social & technical

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: while yes it can be used for social interactivity

[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its not a social platform

[12:00] Lee Oldrich: As I said - I think a more well crafted communications strategy could help

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya perhaps

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: are you volunteering? ;)

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: the way i see it though

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: is i see LL making alot of claims about stability

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and things to come

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and none of it being true

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: im not going to do that

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: id rather see people leave

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: than us getting into pandering and making excuses

[12:01] Lee Oldrich: Justin: I would but I'd be hopeless as I don't know enough about the technicallities to be effective. I'd be chasing you guys down constantly.

[12:02] WhiteStar Magic: is tehre something I could prepare ?

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: Well you know, that's where everybody starts. However, I don't speak for OSGrid - I'm just an opensim developer

[12:02] WhiteStar Magic: of course with a Spell Checker used

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe whitestar if you want to make some statements about stuff

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont think we could be any more clear about it

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i personally think people just dont read what we say

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we all do it even i dont read everything all the time

[12:03] Lee Oldrich: I understand that Neb - but I think you maybe have to take some of those other opinions into account.

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: theres just to much to read and take in

[12:03] WhiteStar Magic: I think it also needs to be bouiled down to teh simplest of language, because I see many folks with another primary klanguage having the worst of it.

[12:03] Lee Oldrich: nods

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya that makes sense

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but according to our stats too

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, interesting conversatio nbut unfortunately I have to go - duty calls

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: like 90% of our users are english speakers

[12:03] Lee Oldrich: We get a LOT of germa / Dutch / UK people

[12:03] WhiteStar Magic: people are tripping over teh long dialogues and material.

[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks

[12:04] Revolution Smythe: cya Justin

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: TTYL JCC

[12:04] Lee Oldrich: (Although UK should be capable of understanding yanks I guess :-))

[12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: cya Justin, tc

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but ya i agree

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: infact

[12:04] Lee Oldrich: Bye Justin

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone seen the wiki page that dave posted long ago

[12:04] WhiteStar Magic: I am seeing a lot of South American's and Spanish folks

[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey waves

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: for people who speak languages natively to translate certain things for us

[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: by justin

[12:04] Lee Oldrich: That would be a cool move

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: http://osgrid.org/wiki/Translations

[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: Lee germand, dutch/uk not the problem. brazil, portugal seems more language problem

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: if anyone is a native speaker of anything other than english

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: if your interested take a stab at translating these terms for us

[12:05] WhiteStar Magic: yes and it has to be simple and easily translated by whatever translation SW is being used

[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: then we can start to expand some of this stuff

[12:05] Lee Oldrich: Richardus: Agreed - they do seem to have the most difficulties

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Whitestar id rather not use translation services

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: if your not a native speaker

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: please do not edit this page

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: do not use software

[12:06] WhiteStar Magic: I agree, but people are using them

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: software is always wrong

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: and sometimes offensive

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:06] WhiteStar Magic: LOL... I Know that all too well

[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: blame the softawre. but finaly its always the user

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: I speak, engklish, French, Hungarion, some German & Russian... Translation Softwware assumes very basic language and no idioms

[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: OK... and TYPONESE is my Best Language

[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: mine too!

[12:08] WhiteStar Magic: I have a good excuse though, so I'm good with it

[12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: i actually like Justin's idea of having some big fat warning when you first fire up opensim

[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: it seems im good in mistyponees

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not a bad idea

[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: yes adelle. font size 70.

[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:09] WhiteStar Magic: something that appears on teh Console of teh Server ?

[12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: if something like were done, it would be nice to have it customised for OSgrid

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually thats not hard to do at all really

[12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: DO backups, DONT forget

[12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe

[12:10] Revolution Smythe: MessageBox.Show(MESSAGE HERE);

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but really

[12:10] WhiteStar Magic: maybe a simple file that any operator could mod

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: if you as me

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ask me

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: you should know this before you download it

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: if you downloaded it then find this out after you spend time setting it up

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its too late

[12:10] Lee Oldrich: I don't think it's the server end where the general issue lies though - won't most have their only interaction be the viewer itself?

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: the warning needs to be at the download points

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: IMHO

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: not after you have configured and started the software

[12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: people dont read them, you said it yourself!

[12:11] WhiteStar Magic: +1 Neb

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: if anything thats just a reminder, not really a warning

[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: agree. and easy to

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: you cant warn people after the fact

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats a fail

[12:11] Lee Oldrich: Well - yes - but I'm talking about peple who have just joined OSG and not had anything to do with the server software

[12:11] Richardus Raymaker: some pop-up screen before you download ?

[12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: what the need is a big, massive even sign on their brand new shineh pimple

[12:11] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Adelle

[12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: when they see that they will read it

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya we can probably do more at Lbsa Plaza then

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: if your talking about users

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: or even at the sign up page

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: on the website

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we can be more explicit about eh alpha nature of this grid

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: people wont read it

[12:12] Lee Oldrich: Well - I was going to suggest that something very large and flashy at LBSA could help

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: remember too

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: a TOS is coming

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: they wont, wont wont wont....

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: 1st the User TOS

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its on the way

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: then a grid op TOS

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: will come shortly after that

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: as well as privacy statements etc.

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: i bet half of people wont read the ToS

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: the TOS will clearly spell out the alpha nature of things

[12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: they will click 'i accept' without knowing the full details

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: i bet 99% of people dont

[12:13] WhiteStar Magic: Half is being Generous

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: honestly

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what we write most people wont read it

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: or retain it

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: even if they do it read it

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: most will forget within hours

[12:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: so, a big sign on their new shiney pimple will catch their attention, and especially if they ahve to go edit the bit in opensim.ini to remove the sign

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: actually

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: there is a .txt file

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: that you can inject your logo on sim startup

[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: any kind of startup message actually

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: we could easily do that for osgrid relasases

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: inject it where?

[12:14] WhiteStar Magic: Good Idea there

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: if you guys think that would make a difference

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: how is it displayed?

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the console

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its ascii

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: nah

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the sim console

[12:14] Lee Oldrich: I don't read the notices for software agreements I know that. It could say "You agree to have your nuts stapled to a passing bus three times a year" and I would n't even know

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: people dont understand the console when they first run it

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:14] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Lee

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but we could pop up a Wearning

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: its just a load of whizzing characters

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: in big ascii letters

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ALPHA!!

[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:14] Revolution Smythe: i like my console lol

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha

[12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: i like my console too

[12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: but when i first ran opensim, i didnt even know whether it har started up properly or not

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[12:15] Revolution Smythe: if it doesn't explode, it started up properly

[12:15] Revolution Smythe: hehe

[12:15] Lee Oldrich: I like my console -even if it does make me feel like one of those Matrix people - just watching the data.....

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you dont see a million errors

[12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: i expected a big sign saying 'your sim is ready for use!!'

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: your good

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: but no... all i got was Root >

[12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[12:16] Revolution Smythe: and Startup Complete

[12:16] Revolution Smythe: [!]:STARTUP COMPLETE

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh thats probably fairly new

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it didnt always do that

[12:16] Revolution Smythe: its been around for awhile

[12:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: Startup complete didnt come in until about 12 months ago, i think

[12:16] Revolution Smythe: yep

[12:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, how about hijacking the startup.txt, Neb

[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: there is another file i thought

[12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: to load an oar of a big sign

[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: though it may have been eliminated

[12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: merge oar

[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: let me look

[12:17] Revolution Smythe: theres timer.txt

[12:17] Revolution Smythe: and shutdown.txt

[12:17] Revolution Smythe: err

[12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: merging a 1 prim 1 texture oar should be fairly quick

[12:17] Revolution Smythe: shutdown_commands.txt

[12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: and would require intervention to stop it too

[12:18] WhiteStar Magic: Timer is off by default

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: hmm damn

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember the name of the file

[12:18] WhiteStar Magic: Startup_Commands is set to run in Default

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: you used to be able to create a txt file

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: that would display on startup complete

[12:18] Revolution Smythe: spyware for opensim, loads up a new oar every time you start it

[12:18] WhiteStar Magic: and that is what actually makes teh pimple island

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: it would print whatever was in the txt file on the console

[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: at [startup complete]

[12:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol Rev

[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: it was undocumented i think

[12:19] Lee Oldrich: Well folks, I gotta get back to work. Thanks for listening. Looking forward to what happens next as always :-)

[12:19] Revolution Smythe: cya Lee

[12:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: okies, Lee, catch uya later

[12:19] WhiteStar Magic: Take Care Lee

[12:19] Lee Oldrich: ttfn

[12:19] Richardus Raymaker: bye lee

[12:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe i love it when people walk round the big couch, so human like

[12:20] Lee Oldrich: IT'S CALLED IMMERSION DAMMIT!

[12:20] Adelle Fitzgerald laughs

[12:20] WhiteStar Magic: HAHAHHAHA

[12:20] Lee Oldrich: :-)

[12:20] Revolution Smythe: lol

[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:21] WhiteStar Magic: Things with startupCommands is that it excutes when teh regions are loading so things may not appear and remain long enough for people to see it

[12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: hmm, but how quickly does a pimple load?

[12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: im talking about a one time, first startup thing

[12:22] WhiteStar Magic: but if there is another mechanism that can be used to put a "NOTICE - WARNING" Banner, it should appear @ end of all loading

[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with doing the oar at startup

[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: is how do we prevent the oar from running a 2nd time?

[12:22] WhiteStar Magic: That's easy enough

[12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: we dont

[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: on the 2nd restart?

[12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: they do

[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya directions would have to be uber clear

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: we put on the notice removal instructions

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its not a bad idea though

[12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: goto startup_commands.txt and delete the text contained

[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: i sorta like it

[12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: if they dont understand those simple words they they definatly SHOULD NOT be running opensim

[12:24] WhiteStar Magic: AHA

[12:24] WhiteStar Magic: Use teh Startuplogo.txt

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: awesome

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive been searchign for that

[12:24] Richardus Raymaker: 2e start ? with firts installs i start. if it runs i shutdown and start it with screen

[12:24] WhiteStar Magic: then no messing with the startup commands

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: man thats not documented

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:24] Richardus Raymaker: so i never see the oar

[12:24] WhiteStar Magic: hehehhee

[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: someone needs to document that

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats how you can have your company logo print

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: when the simulator starts

[12:25] WhiteStar Magic: I still can't see Wonder Womans Airplane

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: i could have it show a ASCII osgrid logo

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: with links to docus

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: wiki's forums

[12:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: nonononono

[12:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: have it print 'this is alpha, use at your own risk, abckup backup backup' then a load of links

[12:25] Richardus Raymaker: dont spam my console

[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: well in addition to the oar loading

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[12:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: we could do all of that

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: warnings, links to documentation

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yanno

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: in Lbsa, we could ahve a noob detector

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: that hands them a notecard

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: check their age?

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: a lot of that could be explained on that

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya but that could get old

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: if you keep revisiting

[12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: Warin and I talked about it once

[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: but ya have to make it like 24-48 hours

[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: then never again

[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: check fo one day old, and keep a list of people

[12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: then reset the list every 2 days

[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya or that too i guess

[12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: or when the sim restarts heh

[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya sounds good, id like to see that for sure

[12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: it could basically say where to get help, grab a fee avatar

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: stuff like that

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: just simple

[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: then they can click the new users sign for more info

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: so they arent bombarded with too much too quick

[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya theres no reason we couldnt give them a starter kit too

[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: not just a noteard

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah

[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: could be a box of stuff

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: both mala and female avies

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: no, a folder

[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya true

[12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: they wont be able to rez it

[12:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, or, we could have every newbie land on noob island, and leave them there

[12:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: like a bunch of binars all bumping into each other confused

[12:29] Richardus Raymaker: thats why we have it, right

[12:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: umm, sorry

[12:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: justthe thought of that makes me giggle though

[12:30] Richardus Raymaker: and in the notecard the find the key to other places. like lbsa

[12:30] WhiteStar Magic: how do you want teh txt Logo, generating it now

[12:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: THIS IS ALPHA SOFTWARE, IT IS NOT FIT FOR PRODUCTION USE!

[12:30] WhiteStar Magic: I have a Graphic to TXT generator

[12:31] Richardus Raymaker: ALWAYS WEAR YOUR HELMET

[12:33] WhiteStar Magic: Dang, Notecards mulch it

[12:33] WhiteStar Magic: proportional fonts

[12:33] WhiteStar Magic: Grrr

[12:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: can you take a screen shot?

[12:33] WhiteStar Magic: no good if you want ASCII

[12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont understand

[12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: did you want to show us something?

[12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: or are you copy/pasting into the converter

[12:35] WhiteStar Magic: I pulled teh OSG Logo into the generator and generated a TXT Logo

[12:35] WhiteStar Magic: but mulches in a Notecard because of teh font

[12:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha

[12:36] WhiteStar Magic: I can transfer it via IRC File Transfer

[12:37] WhiteStar Magic: http://ascgendotnet.jmsoftware.co.uk/

[12:37] WhiteStar Magic: Windows Applet

[12:37] WhiteStar Magic: easy to use and works like a charm"

[12:38] WhiteStar Magic: you can select whatever gfont you want, likely best to use std Courier

[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: nice, back again

[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: had to eat my rice this time

[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:39] WhiteStar Magic: LOL...

[12:39] WhiteStar Magic: <--- Likes Rice

[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: was starving

[12:39] WhiteStar Magic: That link above Neb will let you make any Graphic into a TXT Art file

[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: awesome

[12:40] WhiteStar Magic: very simple and easy to use

[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: it will probably be a while before another release

[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: but maybe i can make a test release

[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: same version as current release but with these new features

[12:40] WhiteStar Magic: I am using r12400 from 0.6.9-post-fixes and it is quite well mannered

[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: we can get some people to give it a test run in prep for the next big release

[12:41] Nebadon Izumi: cool

[12:41] Nebadon Izumi: i guess i could do the post-fixes release too

[12:41] WhiteStar Magic: I dunno if you guys have noticed, but a lot of folks are trying now to use teh Binary Packages from OpenSim.org to connect to OSG

[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thats not suprising

[12:42] WhiteStar Magic: Maybe a small notice on OpenSim.org to say NOT for use with OSG

[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: i certainly dont use our releases

[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:42] Richardus Raymaker: there binary's on opensim.org ?

[12:43] WhiteStar Magic: yep

[12:43] Richardus Raymaker: i only use the osgrid page for the git code. and then build it self

[12:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: how do you get post fixes?

[12:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: is it a different branch?

[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya people actually use the windows installer still too

[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: on forge

[12:43] WhiteStar Magic: Accessed from Main-Page: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Download

[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya its diffrent branch

[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: tagged branch

[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: we generally do it for every release

[12:44] WhiteStar Magic: There is no tagged for 6.9 yet

[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: but thits time its most important because of the big refactoring

[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: this is actually the only time its actually made a difference really

[12:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont understand the tagging thing

[12:44] WhiteStar Magic: yeah, sorry, I still feel PR merge should have been 0.7

[12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: so if 0.6.8 post fixes better than the last head pre p-r?

[12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: *so is

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt say "better"

[12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: by better i mean more patches etc

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: but its got some fixes in there you cant get on OSgrid any other way

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: it has fixes that are post-refactor

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: but in a version thats still compatible with this grid

[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: and older grids

[12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh cool

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: so ya

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: might be worth it for us to have a test release

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats post fixes

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: with some of these new things we talked about

[12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: so i just git checkout -b 0.6.8-post-fixes origin/0.6.8-post-fixes?

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: the startuplogo

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: new oar

[12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: and thats it, carry on as i normally would ?

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think so

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: ive not done it yet

[12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: kk, ill have a go

[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: but its just a matter of changing branches

[12:46] WhiteStar Magic: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim&h=refs/heads/0.6.9-post-fixes works with OSG and I use teh latest without major issues

[12:46] Richardus Raymaker: bye adella

[12:47] Revolution Smythe: cya Adelle

[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: cool Whitestar

[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: shes not leaving

[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, im not going, i meant ill try that

[12:47] WhiteStar Magic: TP Safely Adelle

[12:48] WhiteStar Magic: of course I did have to mod the OpenSim.ini in it and add teh search module and the other usuals but it's fine and I have abused it a fair amount in SA & Grid Attached mode

[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya search is still shut off

[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: hope we can fix that up soon

[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: im hoping actually to write our own search stuff

[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: thats incorporated directly into our web interface

[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: and not an external module

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: it sholdnt be too hard to recreate the search stuff

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty basic

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: heh so much stuff to do

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: oh btw

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: i got osgrid a SSL cert last night

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: sent all the info to dave

[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: 2048bit cert

[12:51] Nebadon Izumi: we want to make the entire website run in SSL connection

[12:51] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if we'll implement it into Elgg, likely not, but the new interface will be secure

[12:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool

[12:52] Richardus Raymaker: ssl is good idea

[12:52] WhiteStar Magic: Burn ELGG to the ground

[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[12:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:53] WhiteStar Magic: Fracken Nightmare

[12:53] Richardus Raymaker: not to deep whitestar

[12:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: i do like the features of elgg

[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya its concepts are sound

[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: its just not a good use of code i dont think

[12:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: its too complicated

[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: for the little we use it for especially

[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: if we were embracing elgg in all its goodness

[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: it would do sooo much more

[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: but we have widdled it down to a fraction of its former self

[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: overkill

[12:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah

[12:55] WhiteStar Magic: a Simple CMS is fine

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: i really wish i havent grown to hate making websites

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: its just gotten so complicated

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: the fun is gone

[12:55] WhiteStar Magic: but ELGG and Heavy weights like that are a royal Pain to manage

[12:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont even understand why we need a cms

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: well CMS is a generic term

[12:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: or is that so we can easily edit pages?

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: we need a custom CMS

[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: not a readily available one

[12:56] UUID Speaker: Howard Karre: 165a45eb-a27c-e2b1-9451-9700e358acdf

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: but managing regions/groups/friends is still managing content

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: ie Content Managemtn System

[12:56] WhiteStar Magic: Actually, I use 2 Light CMS systems that are so simple and moddular it would make ya sick and it's so easy to plug whatever to them

[12:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: most modern cms though

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: try to do everything

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: they try to be google, facebook, yoututbe, twitter, and a shitlaod more

[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: all in one

[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: thats exactly what we dont need

[12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe yeah, and use a billion cascading include files that make your eyes bleed

[12:57] WhiteStar Magic: http://razorcms.co.uk/ & http://lightneasy.org/

[12:57] WhiteStar Magic: Those are simple, Light, Easy and totally modular, you use what you want / need

[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: what we need is GCMS

[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: new term

[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: Grid Content Management System

[12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol

[12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: how about a GMS :P

[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thats more the admin stuff though

[12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: make the new WI a GMS

[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: but ya somnething more custom

[12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh i see

[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: we need a special 6 finger glove

[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: hahaa

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya the way i see it is there will be 2 parts

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: the Grid Managment

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: which is what you and I use to manage the back end

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: then the GCMS system which is the front end / semi-social interface

[12:59] WhiteStar Magic: Shame, Hippo Finesmith just finished reworking WI to work with StandAlones too

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: it extends the grid

[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: gives users a blog/group management/ scheduling

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: with the idea of in the future accessing this pannel in world

[13:00] Revolution Smythe: SL 2 viewer features perhaps?

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: as time moves on the requirement to actually visit the website in IE/FF will diminish alot

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: with new veiwers

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: SL2/Nali

[13:00] Revolution Smythe: its backported into 1.X supposedly

[13:00] Revolution Smythe: as well as the new clothing stuff

[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: ah nice

[13:01] Nebadon Izumi: thats nice to hear

[13:01] Nebadon Izumi: suprising infact

[13:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: new clothing stuff?

[13:01] Nebadon Izumi: probably a lot of server changes then

[13:01] Revolution Smythe: tatooes and alpha

[13:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya the no transprim dealio

[13:01] Richardus Raymaker: the words "SL2" lets me always jump :O

[13:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: ooo cool

[13:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[13:01] Revolution Smythe: i should finish up those features....

[13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Kirsten is reworking SL2, Toxic has done it and adapted / FIXED ui issues

[13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Beta-2 is up and they are chopping it apart right now

[13:02] Nebadon Izumi: cool

[13:02] Nebadon Izumi: its still not real safe to use here right?

[13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Even Boy Lane is fiddling with the SL2 code

[13:02] Revolution Smythe: i used it here

[13:02] Revolution Smythe: but i used it on my sims

[13:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya i did too

[13:02] Nebadon Izumi: but i undestand it can mess up your inventory

[13:03] Richardus Raymaker: i hope there's a developer that can cobine SL2 with SL1 onterface

[13:03] Revolution Smythe: i have some basic support for the stuff

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped using it after i heard that

[13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: openmetaverse was updated, but to what length i dont know

[13:03] WhiteStar Magic: it's pretty quirky with OpenSim

[13:03] Richardus Raymaker: wel, since i tried it i have some extra folders in my inventory in sl

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya opensim has not updated libomv yet

[13:03] Revolution Smythe: think they did on trunk

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: not 100% i dont think anyway

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya i saw that too

[13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, the changes went into trunk

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: but there is a note in that revision

[13:03] WhiteStar Magic: it ate some of my stuff, killed teh textures on clothing and other items I was wearing when I logged in with SL2

[13:03] Nebadon Izumi: that says more work is required to actually use 2.0

[13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i dont think everything

[13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: right

[13:04] Nebadon Izumi: jhurliman upgraded OpenSim’s versions of libomv to SVN r3268. This adds protocol support for Viewer 2.0 though work is still required in OpenSim to actually implement any features.

[13:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: im laying off for now

[13:04] WhiteStar Magic: and I cannot repair the stuff I do not have teh textures for

[13:04] Richardus Raymaker: i think there more important things then some sl2 functions

[13:04] Revolution Smythe: yeah

[13:04] Revolution Smythe: libmov is done though

[13:04] Richardus Raymaker: as long there's no good sl2 viewer its useless

[13:04] Revolution Smythe: since i have one of the new packets in

[13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: atm though Richardus, the devs have little to none feedback for trunk, so they might as well play with stuff

[13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: if they want that is

[13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: though it really comes down to what devs do is what they want to do, when they want

[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: well i didnt find the SL 2 viewer to be that bad

[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: its just a lot differnt

[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: mostly its the same

[13:05] Revolution Smythe: yep

[13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive still not tried, even in sl

[13:05] Revolution Smythe: i hate not having the pie menu and the sidebar

[13:05] WhiteStar Magic: I actually kinda like it

[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: its just all moved around

[13:05] Revolution Smythe: yeah

[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: but all the same stuff is there really

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: the pie menu is frustrating

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: but someone will fix that

[13:06] Richardus Raymaker: it need to many clicks to do something simple

[13:06] WhiteStar Magic: and now that panels can shrink and detach and go transpareent, it's a bit better

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: someone is going to put the pie menu back

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[13:06] Revolution Smythe: hehe

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like that is easy

[13:06] Nebadon Izumi: it would have nice to have it some of the changes be optional

[13:07] Nebadon Izumi: able to revert back to the old ways

[13:07] Nebadon Izumi: with a toggle

[13:07] Richardus Raymaker: aha, the finaly made that

[13:07] Revolution Smythe: yep

[13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: i hope detaching panels and transparency doesnt cause a load on FPS

[13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: thats one thing that bugs me about all the SL1 viewers

[13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: i open map, or inventory and my FPS drop slightly

[13:07] Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont blame them for not wanting to drag old stuff forward etiher

[13:07] Richardus Raymaker: can you add buttons add bottom ? like inventory map mini map friend ? do the have put the chat bard back in the chat window ?

[13:08] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is the new viewer should be easier for making built in huds and menus

[13:08] WhiteStar Magic: Toxic & Kirsten did that

[13:08] Nebadon Izumi: like customized stuff

[13:08] WhiteStar Magic: and they are playing with teh PlugIn interface for stuff

[13:08] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant say ive been following it too good lately

[13:08] WhiteStar Magic: <--- has been keeping an eye on it

[13:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya supposed to be able to make drop in modules

[13:08] Nebadon Izumi: for the viewers

[13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: i signed up for the SL opensource-dev mailing list, and quit 2 days later lol

[13:09] WhiteStar Magic: "NOT looking at the code though"

[13:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya me too Adelle

[13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: it filled my inbox with utter junk and people fighting

[13:09] Nebadon Izumi: no human could possibly read all that

[13:09] Nebadon Izumi: and still have time for work

[13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha

[13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: im not human :P but still, i dont care for their ramblings

[13:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[13:10] Richardus Raymaker: did the put the old volume bar back. (at the bottom !)

[13:12] Nebadon Izumi: last i saw it was at top right corner

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: very mac like

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[13:13] Richardus Raymaker: wel, for now SL2 upset me still pretty.

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya right now its a hassle

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not bothering either

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: let otehr people work out the bumps

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[13:13] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but you still cannot turn off audio seperate or set volume right ?

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: you can i think

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: the mixer is just moved

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: everythign is all scrambled

[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will take a few weeks/months of using it to fully adjust

[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: pretty much everything is there still though

[13:14] Richardus Raymaker: that means 2 years for me :O thats what it costed me to get used to xp before i really started with it. lol

[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya big changes are never fun

[13:15] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i need to test it on other pc with new version. i give it 5 minutes

[13:15] Nebadon Izumi: but generally in hind sight are worth it

[13:15] WhiteStar Magic: Neb, Q re LBSA

[13:15] Nebadon Izumi: i think more good than bad will probably come of it

[13:15] Nebadon Izumi: sure

[13:15] WhiteStar Magic: have you ever run /sstats on that region ?

[13:16] Nebadon Izumi: we were until sqlite broke

[13:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[13:16] WhiteStar Magic: IE, do you know what viewers are hiting it as displayed by sstats

[13:16] Nebadon Izumi: no but our server proxies do

[13:16] Nebadon Izumi: we might be able to work that out

[13:16] WhiteStar Magic: it works ok now BTW, I use it on my instances

[13:16] Nebadon Izumi: last i looked there was like easily 50-100 differnt viewers

[13:17] Revolution Smythe: hehe

[13:17] Nebadon Izumi: that access osgrid

[13:17] Revolution Smythe: i still use 1.18 from time to time

[13:17] WhiteStar Magic: There is a theory that the New Hippo is causing some issues

[13:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, a scary amount

[13:17] Revolution Smythe: so theres one uncommon one

[13:17] Revolution Smythe: the new hippo is buggy

[13:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are a crazy amount of custom viewers

[13:17] WhiteStar Magic: yep

[13:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya im still on hippo 0.5.1

[13:17] WhiteStar Magic: major mem leaks in it

[13:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive not seen any problems, its just the regions they all crash when im there....

[13:17] Nebadon Izumi: we should probably make a posting on how to stay on 0.5.1

[13:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: j/k hehe

[13:18] WhiteStar Magic: I reverted to using only SL+CV now

[13:18] Nebadon Izumi: how to edit the settings.xml

[13:18] Bri Hasp is Online

[13:18] Revolution Smythe: and how to remove the annoying setting

[13:18] Nebadon Izumi: to disable auto update

[13:18] Revolution Smythe: we could repackage the viewer

[13:18] Revolution Smythe: with that already done

[13:18] WhiteStar Magic: Good Idea Rev

[13:18] Nebadon Izumi: well not really

[13:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: im still using 0.6.2 and apart from a few apparent bugs, have not seen any impact on regions

[13:18] Nebadon Izumi: the installer source code is not included

[13:18] Nebadon Izumi: Mana has never release the installer source code

[13:18] Bri Hasp is Offline

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: that downloads files from the linden svn

[13:19] WhiteStar Magic: what about just posting a fixed XML for it

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: no one knows how mana did it

[13:19] Revolution Smythe: that would work

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[13:19] Richardus Raymaker: i tried imprudence 1.3b2. but im back to 1.2.0 still the best one. something in 1.23 & opensim seems to bite

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: we can make a link to download the xml

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: and also explain the changes

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: for parainoid folks

[13:19] Nebadon Izumi: who dont like dropping in alien files

[13:19] WhiteStar Magic: That may be the simplest and cleanest option

[13:20] Nebadon Izumi: we could even post a link to adelles ui changes

[13:20] Nebadon Izumi: all in 1 posting

[13:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: i gotat run, grab some food

[13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: *gotta

[13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill catch yas later

[13:23] WhiteStar Magic: Have a Good One Adelle

[13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: byeee!

[13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald is Offline

[13:23] Revolution Smythe: cya Adelle

[13:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[13:27] Richardus Raymaker: aaargh.

[13:27] Richardus Raymaker: sorry. try to open search in sl 2 no button

[13:27] Richardus Raymaker: i mean map

[13:27] WhiteStar Magic: Their search changed

[13:28] WhiteStar Magic: SL2 uses a diff search mechanism then 1.2x viewers

[13:28] Richardus Raymaker: what the did wrong. the move the sidebar buttons.

[13:28] WhiteStar Magic: you tthink your having fun now, wait till you try to uninstall it

[13:29] Richardus Raymaker: hmm the dropped some stuppid non important move button at the bottom. instead of usefull buttons

[13:29] Richardus Raymaker: oh noo. i dont do that. btw no problem. copy datadir unstall copy datadir back. buit its on other test pc

[13:29] Richardus Raymaker: but i go out. the interface is still bad.

[13:30] Richardus Raymaker: something impoirtant like map is not findable

[13:31] WhiteStar Magic: see ya'll around, have a good one

[13:31] Revolution Smythe: cya Whitestar

[13:31] Richardus Raymaker: bye whitestar.

[13:31] WhiteStar Magic is Offline

[13:31] Richardus Raymaker: will look again later at sl2

[13:31] Richardus Raymaker: ok. i go home to

[13:31] Revolution Smythe: cya RiRa

[13:32] Richardus Raymaker: bye nebadon, revo

[13:32] Richardus Raymaker: btw my server needs more ram im afraid. or opensim/mono need to use less

[13:39] Tesira Luco is Online

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