Chat log from the meeting on 2013-02-19

[11:02] Vivian Klees: walk along on a mega prim like this with the viewer recorder walking then play it back watch what it does [11:02] dan banner: ahh [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, justin [11:02] dan banner: hi justin [11:02] Teravus Ousley: Hellow Justincc [11:02] Vivian Klees: Big Buck in the house [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, but he isn't dressed as a Bunny. :-) [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, hello nebadon [11:03] dan banner: i'm wearing my big buck fan shirt [11:03] Sarah Kline: hi [11:03] dan banner: hi sarah [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... so you are, dan. [11:04] Vivian Klees: I showed my friends the video, they said his dance was better than Psy's [11:05] Teravus Ousley was just commenting on how it was a really quiet tuesday [11:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev         036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... 0.7.6 (dev) :-) [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it does seem pretty quiet [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: which is what I need, quite frankly [11:06] Teravus Ousley: heh [11:06] dan banner: justin, i changed lbsa to co-op and that user has not ended up being a ghost [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ah, interesting! [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: co-op? [11:07] dan banner: its a wait and see tho [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: there's also a patch from oren that I need to look on that might touch on this issue [11:07] Teravus Ousley: script abort -> script time coop [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: though I personally still think it's a script abort issue [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: could be combo though [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah [11:08] dan banner: i did notice something else tho [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to give avatars their own app domains [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, it would be good to have that as an option [11:08] dan banner: when ghosted, trying to teleport the avatar or kick the avatar both result in locking the console [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: still? [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: with co-op termination enabled? [11:09] dan banner: i havent seen it with coop [11:09] dan banner: yet [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: did you clean out the script directory when you turned co-op on? [11:09] dan banner: just saying, its not the kick user [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: both those commands will end up using the same code to remove the current avatar from the scene [11:09] dan banner: right [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: just to confirm, you cleared out the existing scripts? [11:10] dan banner: everything has been running well at lbsa [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I only emphasize this because if one doesn't, one still uses scripts compiled to thread abort [11:10] dan banner: no i recompiled them [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ok, great. [11:10] Cuteulala Artis is offline. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: if it does happen again, a vm thread dump would be much appreciated [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: everytime we do a plaza update [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the dlls get purged [11:10] dan banner: sure justin [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully this time it would show properly if there's a deadlock [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so just updated will force that [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, great to know [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we do save states though [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's fine [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's only the compiled DLLS that need to be purged [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i figured it was safer to purge the dlls every update [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: takes a lot longer for that initial startup [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but avoids wierd issues [11:12] logger sewell: Hi all made it [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory there should normally be no wierd issues [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hello Logger [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right, but we are constantly testing [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but I can imagine that something interesting might sometimes occur, esp. with dev code [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt want our bug reports to be clouded by issues that sneak in [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that could be avoided [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, absolutely [11:13] Teravus Ousley: FYI, I swapped out the WebGL test page with a video.. since I'm not going to be here for a week :) http://teravus.wmcv.com/googletester/vstest/index.html ---> the page has the test page linked.. but as it says, no guarantee if the instance will be available while I'm away. [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hi logger, hi robert [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert, glad you made it :) [11:13] Sarah Kline: HI Robert [11:13] dan banner: hey robert [11:13] Robert Adams: hello all [11:13] logger sewell: HI Robert [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: heh [11:13] Teravus Ousley: Hello [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I always forget about the Bullet testing that happens before this meeting. [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's an impressive view of the region in webgl [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to make a video for you as soon as I could Teravus [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: busy day for me today though [11:14] Teravus Ousley: heh, no worries. [11:14] Robert Adams: the bullet office hours didn't happen today... I had other commitments... but next week for sure [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: great [11:15] Teravus Ousley visited and smashed the chain links .. but that was it. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, sounds good although I'll probably miss next weeks. :-) [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i have a wierd issue with chains on my serer [11:15] Robert Adams: LOL [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: server* [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: they move really slow for some reason [11:15] Joe Radik: redvet-77 [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not sure what is up with that [11:15] Robert Adams: I need to add a special RLV mode so chains won't be as much of a problem for you :) [11:16] Sarah Kline: ) [11:16] Cuteulala Artis is online. [11:16] Teravus Ousley: well, the black hole will smash the chain links to bits.. :) [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya its ok here [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: odd [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: your server is windows? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: nno [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Linux [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: same as this box [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0.3 [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mono 3.0.3 still working out fine? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: working great [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: the bells, the bells [11:18] Sarah Kline: LOL [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: bells? I don't hear any bells. [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if justin has been working so hard that he is starting to hallucinate [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ;-) [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a rare species of spinally dformed rabbit [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its tinitus [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:19] Teravus Ousley: It's 5 people replacing all of your roof shingles [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a pounding noise not a ringing one. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i need to check the mesh stairs [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: someone told me that was working now in bullet [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hoild on [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they are phantom at moment [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, mesh stairs. I can't see mesh objects. I've returned to using Imprudence on my laptop as I was having problems using other viewers. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: still tough [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: even going up the ramp seems tough [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: what is the spacing between treads on the stairs? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its 0.36m [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: the stair spacing [11:24] Robert Adams: and would this work in SL? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not sure honestly [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive never uploaded stairs in SL [11:24] Robert Adams: like you visit there all the time :) [11:24] dan banner: seems any height stairs work in sl [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably work with regular prims [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, not true unless you use a ramp [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the spacing was .362 [11:25] Robert Adams: I'll play with that [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That is a bit on the high side. [11:25] dan banner: andrew: its a whole lot higher there than opensim [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I find a spacing of .25 seems to work better. Not sure what the upper limit is before you start having problems climbing a set of stairs. [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it works with reg prims [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: same spacing [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. [11:26] dan banner: i know in ODE its also directional... [11:26] dan banner: spin that around nebadon [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: .25m is actually closer to the virtual equivalent of real stairs [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: still make it up [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its not super smooth [11:27] dan banner: ya [11:27] dan banner: nice [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but it goes up [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: on the mesh stairs its like you hit a wall [11:28] Robert Adams: I use a different stair climbing mechanism that ODE [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya in ODE [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: you are lucky to walk up 0.20 prims [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a good job I've largely overcome my screen-induced motion sickness [11:28] Robert Adams: ODE relies on the rounded bottom of the avatar capsule -- that is why some of that stuff about capsule tilt [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is basically ramps or nothing [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even ramps have trouble in ODE [11:29] dan banner: heh [11:29] Robert Adams: I look for collisions close to the avatar's feet and then move the avatar up to try and get over the barrier [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: like dan said, dpending on their rotation / orientation to the sim [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: how much do you move them up, Robert? [11:29] Robert Adams: that could be some problem with meshes, though [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: makes sense [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: cause you see if i put the ramp in the stairs its fine [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even if i don't make it phantom [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so its not artifacts [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no odd invisible triangles or something [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: the only problem I have with ramps is that people skip adding a guard rail and I sometimes fall off the stairs before making it to the top. [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thats how these were [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: just like real life [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will unphantom all the stairs and leave ramps for now [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to work fine [11:31] Robert Adams: there are three configuration parameters. AvatarStepHeight (height looking for collisions under ( default 0.3) [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't recall when i last had trouble with .25m spacing on stairs. I don't use ramps when I make stairs. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it depends Andrew [11:31] Robert Adams: AvatarStepForceFactor (multiplier for force to get avatar up (default 2.0) [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the avatar capsule in ODE never rotates [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: and its tilted [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps I got lucky or my avatar is more coordinated. ;-) [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so sometimes your walking like your dragging a board behind you [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: other times its like your plowing it into the grund in front of you [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i haven't looked at the avatar capsule [11:32] Robert Adams: and AvatarStepApproachFactor (controls how directly one has to approach the step (default 0.6) [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: when your plowing it into ground [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: going up stairs and ramps is difficult [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes impossible depending on the angle of incline [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the same goes for terrain [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes going up hills you avatar is floating off the ground [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its because your capsule is plowing into the terrain mesh [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:33] Robert Adams: the step height is the main one... come force is applied up and the avatar is moved up 1/2 the step height... so a step about .2 works well [11:33] Teravus Ousley: dot product against the face normal.. :) [11:35] Robert Adams: I can increase the default if a target step height is about .25 [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: woah [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: this is pretty cool. It would be radical if this meeting space were just a bunch of chains extending from the moon down to the land surface [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: might be a bit stressful on the phys engine though :) [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: be neat to try something like that [11:37] Vivian Klees: anyone tried to simulate a baseball pitching machine on bullet? [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Chain seats for everyone [11:39] Robert Adams: or egg chairs suspended by chains [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:39] Robert Adams: can't get the links too small, though [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens then? [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: not tried Vivian, that might be tough [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably be somewhat unpredictable [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I need to try the axis locking [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: do you have an example script for that Robert? [11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald is offline. [11:43] dan banner: . [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey farts discretely [11:43] Vivian Klees lights a match [11:43] Teravus Ousley makes a random comment about this video: http://youtu.be/PHSJCMkUa9Y, Why would you do something like that!? [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks prepares to call the fire department [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: If I knew that then I would probably be doing it [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol omg [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: horrible video haha [11:45] dan banner: teravus: lack of common sense? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ive had like 2 or 3 spikes from those cactus in me [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it was excruciating [11:45] Robert Adams: axis logging is not enabled yet... this job thing is distracting me :) [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: ha [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok [11:46] Robert Adams: making chain links too small causes them to jump around and break [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i saw a commit said something about experimental axis locking [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and assumed it was sorta working [11:46] Robert Adams: I need to scale the collision margins and forces by the size of the object [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Teravus, I don't think that person will be doing it again any time soon (if ever) [11:46] Robert Adams: yes... the code is there but turned off.... i'm using a Bullet constraint to lock the axis [11:47] Teravus Ousley: 0.o [11:47] Teravus Ousley: o.0 [11:48] Robert Adams: I've added all the bullet constraint types... won't be long before you can set any link in a linkset to be a constraint: hinge, slider, spring, ... [11:48] dan banner: nice [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the center of gravity fix gone in to Bullet? [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks rembered something about it from the mailing list or a previous meeting. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i think I saw some work for center of mass go in [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if its the final word yet [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll have to check that out sometime. I think that was what made my flying sleigh hard to control. It was off balance. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=fb903ff49089d5fd7a56aa2401528c3e7cf1800c [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: this was last thing to go in for it [11:51] Robert Adams: another feature that's almost there... not enabled, though [11:51] Robert Adams: it will be user settable when it is done [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:51] Robert Adams wonders what people will do with setting center-of-mass outside an object :) [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Being able to change cog will be good for sailboats [11:53] Teravus Ousley notes that whatever you do.. you don't want your game controls to be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2F3ZWEEbF4 (swearing) [11:53] Robert Adams: I would like a bunch of OpenSim extensions to be enabled by default.... modInvoke, os function, ... [11:53] Robert Adams: OpenSimulator is not SL any more [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see anything wrong with enabling them. But it will be a battle to have any OSSL threat level be default [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol thats funny Teravus [11:57] Robert Adams: There should be a "UsualPermissions.ini" file that keeps thread level at RediculuslyHigh (or whatever it is now) but has Allows_ for useful but not usually dangerous functions [11:58] Robert Adams: I know there is one person out there who thinks nothing should be allowed by default but that is not true for 99% of anybody's regions [12:00] Robert Adams: and OpenSim-ness should be enabled by default (os functions, ...) and turnoffable if you want SL compatibility [12:00] Sarah Kline: Maybe if the term Threat was changed people would feel different [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I agree. but if we are to 'move beyond' ll in that manner than I thikn everybody would have to accept that some non-sl functinos have to be always available [12:00] Robert Adams: at least that's what I think [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Threat is certainly a paranoid way of putting it [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: although tat's not neecessarily inappropirate with a region running other people's code [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well there are quite a few OSSL functions you definately do not want or need on by default [12:01] Robert Adams: I agree with you there, Nebadon... [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can have something like Robert said [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: have an example file people can rename [12:02] Robert Adams: I'm not saying any script should be able to do console commands :) [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: then you uncomment out a line in Xengine [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: to enable the ini file [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I think one day those ini files really have to move out of bin/ [12:02] Sarah Kline: set security levels [12:02] Robert Adams: or rename it and put in the bin/config directory [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a ridiculous situation at the moment with practically everything piled in there [12:02] Robert Adams: all INI files are read in that directory [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i mean if you look at like apache [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it nots like apache can do much out of the box either [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: things like php and java have inherit risks [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: enabling them [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true [12:04] Robert Adams: on the other hand, the default OpenSimulator setup is what most people run... so what should be common across OpenSim regions [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the opensimulator/web server comparison isn't perfect because I see OpenSimulator as having to do so much more with its content [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right [12:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev         036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: whereas a vanilla webserver implements http and serves html without having to know what that html is [12:05] Robert Adams: at the moment, most people don't use the os functions because they are usually turned off [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: but then I guess that breaks down if you consider php [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i am just saying a lot of web facing software comes crippled out of the box [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: forcing the person enabling them to be the one taking the risk [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not the developers [12:06] Robert Adams: but the 'enabling them' step is not part of the normal installation instructions [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we could certainly make things easier [12:06] Robert Adams: the 'wimp out' would be to add more documentation :) [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hahha [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: heh, - I was just about to type that :) [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to admit, I don't have stomach for that fight right now [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I just think about all the hoops I have to jump through to make apache work how I like [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel I have to fight on too many other fronts [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: opensim seems easy by comparison [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of time too documentation is usless [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: even good documentation [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i end up finding the answer on some 15 year old kids blog [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: would be a start to have good doc though [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: reminds me of when i was learning wings3D [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i spent weeks trying to figure something out [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up finding a video on youtube was a 13 year old german kid [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: speaking german [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and i figured it out from that [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but i don't disagree about any of it [12:10] Unknown User: can these things be enabled by the console, or is that a bad idea? [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i was just making comparisons [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: at the moment they can not [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I think they are good points [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it requires a sim restart [12:10] Fearghus McMahon: i think making proper documentation is the thing most developers hate ;)....next to not haveing proper documentation [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: what's needed is reasonable discussion on these things [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to pop off now [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks [12:11] dan banner: bye justin [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I do as well [12:11] Sarah Kline: bye justin [12:11] Teravus Ousley: Ok, take care :) [12:11] dan banner: laters everyone [12:11] Fearghus McMahon: take care justin and Neb