Chat log from the meeting on 2019-05-07

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: I have a question this morning for Bill Blight, anybody know if he is coming?

[11:02] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Good evening

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if he is online in IRC

[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bill almost always comes

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Evening Bernd, it is still late morning for me in California.

[11:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: :waves: to everyone :)

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see him online right now. Perhaps he will drop in soon.

[11:03] Kayaker Magic: In fact, I have to leave for lunch in about 20 minutes, so I'll ask my question without him:

[11:03] George Equus: Hi Leighton, Andrew, Bernd

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Sure. Go ahead, Kayaker.

[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Leighton.

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: I heard that Bill had a lot of trouble with the Open Sim Fest with people arriving from OSGrid, and their inventory swamping his servers because OSGrid doesn't have My Suitcase enabled.

[11:04] Kayaker Magic: So the question is: Does OpenSim have an inventory throttle? I know Kitely added one of their onw.

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: *own.

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: And rumor has it that Bill fixed the OpenSimFest problem, so what did he do?

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I know there are various throttles in the code. Ubit may know if there is one in the inventory side of things.

[11:06] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: there are several things that we are doing next year to mitigate that spike when people arrive. I cannot speak for the tech side though as that is Bills wheel house.

[11:07] Kayaker Magic: I've heard that SL has a layerd approach, loading folders only first and not contents, loading worn items before general inventory items....

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: (phone)

[11:07] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: that sounds like object culling by distance and some throttles but not sure

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, that sounds like a reasonable approach.

[11:09] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: osgrid in particular gave Opensim Fest a severe hit when they landed which they obviously dont see when they are on OSGrid.

[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Lazy loading is a design pattern commonly used in computer programming to defer initialization of an object until the point at which it is needed. It can contribute to efficiency in the program's operation if properly and appropriately used. The opposite of lazy loading is eager loading. The performance gains are especially significant if the initialization of the object is costly, such as in case of accessing network services. This makes it ideal in use cases where network content is accessed and initialization times are to be kept at a minimum, such as in the case of web pages.

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill will be here in a moment.

[11:10] Arielle Popstar: more throttles?

[11:10] George Equus: Hi Arielle

[11:10] Arielle Popstar: Hi George

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... Firestorm shows time in seconds in the corner of the screen but I can't find where to make it show just hour and minutes.

[11:10] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: in some cases throttles are needed to make inworld experience tolerable for more avatars.

[11:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: when you are handling 30-50 up avatars in the same region throttles are sensible

[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Bill, I was asking what you did to mitigate the inventory load problem in OpenSimFest.

[11:11] Arielle Popstar: extreme cases of usage

[11:11] Arielle Popstar: very rare for that amount of avatars in opensim regions

[11:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: well you say extreme I would like to get to a point where that is normal

[11:12] Bill Blight: We used a php based asset connection

[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: Howdy Bill gtsy

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Bill and Arielle.

[11:12] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew

[11:13] Bill Blight: Throttles again?? Wow basic networking escapes some people ..

[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: we learnt allot from our first Opensim Fest

[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Yes, and I am hoping to lean what you learned!

[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: hopefully enough to smooth out the rough edges

[11:13] Arielle Popstar: would be nice Leighton but even s/l rarely sees those sort of numbers in the majority of its regions

[11:14] Kayaker Magic: (without having to make ALL the mistakes myself)

[11:14] George Equus: Hi Bill

[11:14] Bill Blight: We seem to regularly get 30ish at our events

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, if you don't feel throttles in the code is the way to do it, how would you do it?

[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: for things like conferences, live music events we need that type of capacity if we had we could do more

[11:14] Bill Blight: No no, I was saying throttles are a good thing

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, ok.:)

[11:15] Bill Blight: for instance if there are no throttles, and like myself I have a gigabit internet, I could soak up all the bandwidth and leave NONE for the rest of you

[11:15] Arielle Popstar: well a good thing perhaps as long as they arent being applied to a region with 5-10 avatars in it and it takes 10 minutes + to see everyone

[11:16] Bill Blight: Never had it take 10 minutes to see people on current code, even on a busy region ..

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Not immediately loading someones 30,000 inventory as soon as they arrive would help.

[11:16] Arielle Popstar: no longer on current but it is on the current opensim release

[11:16] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: nods @ Andrew

[11:17] Bill Blight: Suitcase, it does not load the inventory only indexes it

[11:17] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: which is bad enough

[11:17] Kayaker Magic: But suitcase is an option, and OSGrid doesn't have it enabled.

[11:17] Bill Blight: There is a big diff between amount of calls, and size of calls

[11:18] Bill Blight: Mesh uses way more bandwidth that inventory loading

[11:20] Kayaker Magic: I have to run, so last word Bill: What did you do during OpenSimFest to help with this problem?

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ok. back from phone call, sorry

[11:20] Bill Blight: We used a php based asset connection

[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Was the Fest asking for the Suitcase information from osgrid in a loop and that was causing the problem?

[11:20] Bill Blight: osgrid does not use suitcase

[11:20] Bill Blight: that was part of the problem

[11:21] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: it was indexing their entire inventory

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: yes there is some serialzation/throotle of inventory requests

[11:21] Arielle Popstar: so what was  Fest using for code?

[11:21] Bill Blight: Our as of yet unreleased fork

[11:21] Arielle Popstar: the latest head at the time or the stable release

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: but one should not even notice it if only one person in region

[11:21] Bill Blight: will be released once we make it a bit more end user friendly

[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: awaits eagerly

[11:22] Bill Blight: but yes based on latest head always

[11:22] Arielle Popstar: sounds scary

[11:22] Kayaker Magic: bye!

[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Thanks Bill!

[11:22] Arielle Popstar: user friendly for who?

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.

[11:22] Bill Blight: people with triple digit IQs

[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: a technically competent sysadmin

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: folder requests id done by viewers

[11:22] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: bye Kayaker

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: they decide what to ask for ( FS for example does ask for some forlder several times )

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: cya kayaker

[11:23] Arielle Popstar: we need triple digit dev's to make it friendly for double digit users maybe

[11:24] Bill Blight: "This version is NOT targeted at MORONS, yes I said MORONS.

It is designed for "Server Guys", Geeks, "Propeller Heads", "Nerds" and people with more than double digit IQs.

I will not now or in the foreseeable future EVER put out a "Easy to use" version.

Suck it up Buttercup and grow a few IQ points."

[11:24] Bill Blight: that is right from my readme

[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: chuckles

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :D

[11:24] Arielle Popstar: as long as it isnt the Opensim official release

[11:25] Bill Blight: Bullet removed, POS physics removed, Yengine default,

[11:26] Arielle Popstar: ahh so backward compatibility out the window

[11:26] Arielle Popstar: have fun with that

[11:26] Bill Blight: yes no stone age compatibility

[11:26] Bill Blight: When the guy that wrote bullet says it's time to move on, that is something to pay attention to, and he did ..

[11:26] Arielle Popstar: does it help with anything  in the end?

[11:27] Arielle Popstar: he said because  he moved on to a different  thing

[11:27] Bill Blight: LOL, that and the fact there is too much to "FIX" in bullet

[11:28] Arielle Popstar: so it is the intention to make this fork the new Opensim head?

[11:28] Bill Blight whispers: NO NO

[11:28] Bill Blight: hell no

[11:28] Arielle Popstar: oh so why we talking about it?

[11:28] Bill Blight: because Kayaker asked me a question

[11:28] Arielle Popstar: ahh kk

[11:28] Bill Blight: not all about you

[11:29] Arielle Popstar: good thing

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: No more questions from Kayaker today as he has left. Who else has questions?

[11:29] Arielle Popstar: i'm already responsible for stopping the release of anothe stable. Dont need more on my shouldeers

[11:31] Arielle Popstar: is there anything else to discuss if all development resources are  focused on Bill's  project?

[11:31] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: when is the next release?

[11:31] George Equus: Got a Bin question

[11:31] Bill Blight: yeah all development resources, ME .. LOL

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, George.

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: still no idea about next release ETA

[11:31] Bill Blight: core has nothing to do with my fork

[11:31] George Equus: Got a small issue concerning the Inventory for my alt. One deleted linkset, window frame from years back but called Primitive. Refuse to go away no matter what. I regularly empty the bin before log off and yes, from the web page too. Next time I log on it is back. Sharing it is fine but is no copy. Just did that to this avatar but still have not showed up. Despite loosing it on share it still return to the Bin... Any ideas?

[11:33] Bill Blight: Is this Osgrid George?

[11:33] Bill Blight: if so that might be a question for Dan

[11:33] George Equus: Yes, sorry  :)

[11:33] Bill Blight: sounds like something is wonky in the DB for that object

[11:33] George Equus: Yes, been looking for him, not online that much

[11:33] Arielle Popstar: you meaning the Trash bin?

[11:33] George Equus: Yes

[11:34] Arielle Popstar: tats done by the website  so maybe Paela?

[11:34] George Equus: I am clue less myself, been like it for  ohh  6  months at least

[11:34] Bill Blight: all the website does is purge from the DB if it is not leaving the DB that would be dan

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, right. I seem to remember hearing about a grid that doesn't actually delete things in-world. You have to do it via a web page.

[11:35] Bill Blight: Yeah it's called OsGrid

[11:35] Bill Blight: :P

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: That's going to confuse a lot of users. :)

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: yeah think it is called osgrid.. but its not delete things, its delete trash

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and not a new thing

[11:36] Bill Blight: right delete trash, osgrid been like that for a while

[11:36] Arielle Popstar: no, been like that a long while

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. Not new but not something I heard about often.

[11:36] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: they were working on the website maybe something got unhooked somewhere. I think that was about 6 months ago

[11:36] Bill Blight: to empty trash you have to do it from the website

[11:36] George Equus: Right :)  and OSGrid isn't along using that procedure

[11:36] George Equus: *alone

[11:36] Arielle Popstar: they had recent issues too i think

[11:36] George Equus: Security issue of some sort apparently

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: guess that was set that way bc a problem in past, where things where lost

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: no details

[11:36] Arielle Popstar: yes it was George

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Did osgrid patch the grid code to implement that feature or is an ini setting?

[11:37] Bill Blight: so it just sounds like it is stuck in the DB, as no assets ever get truly deleted, (without godlike intervention) just seems like that one is borked ..

[11:37] George Equus: No idea, always used it, from day one i think

[11:37] Bill Blight: it's in the code, but you have to do custom PHP to use it

[11:37] Arielle Popstar: does other trash get deleted properly Geeorge?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: if its osgrid, you may try to ask dan to take a look

[11:37] George Equus: Always Arielle

[11:38] Arielle Popstar: maybe a issue with the uuid?

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: George, You are unable to delete the item after using the website to make the deletion?

[11:38] George Equus: Just though you server guys might pull some ideas from top of heads :)

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: remember osgrid did had a few crashs on grid services

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: something may had got stuck

[11:38] George Equus: Totally and utterly un deletable

[11:39] George Equus: Will check right now ...

[11:39] Arielle Popstar: always good to have access to triple digit IQ's  :)

[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked and found that dan is not currently online.

[11:40] Arielle Popstar: saw him saturday for the first time in a while

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: guess that needs to be a async ( im, email) request to dan :)

[11:41] Arielle Popstar: what does it matter if it is in trash?

[11:41] George Equus: Will send him Note card I think, as he isn't online that much currently

[11:41] Bill Blight: George, have you cleared the regions asset cache? It could just be getting put back from the cache ..

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: yeah give him all the data you have about the thing... (name, your uuid, the thing uuid etc )

[11:41] George Equus: When I empty my trash I don't want that old banana peel sticking in the bottom for ever...

[11:42] Arielle Popstar: oh

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:42] George Equus: But for al practical purposes probably doesn't matter

[11:42] Arielle Popstar: i usually have a few hundred to 1000 items there all the time so just wondered

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If you can't empty trash from the website that is a problem for one of the grid staff.

[11:42] George Equus: Unless is messing up something elswhere

[11:43] George Equus: I asked here as a general tech question just in case someone happened to have an idea.

[11:43] George Equus: But is osgrid issue absolutely

[11:44] Arielle Popstar: kept it being too short of a meeting :)

[11:44] Arielle Popstar: kept it from being^

[11:44] George Equus: Sorry 'bout that :)

[11:44] George Equus: lol

[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: np, George. :)

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: yeah other grids do direct trash delete

[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: 15 minutes remaining before the top of the hour. What is the next topic for today?

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but that may fail a lot

[11:45] George Equus: well Arielle, your turn then, 15 min to fill

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: or any objects delete

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: on older versions

[11:45] Arielle Popstar: so what needs finishing before another stable release Ubit?

[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen a problem with deleting trash inworld as long as the grid prevents that.

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: think it is a lot better on master now

[11:46] George Equus: Reason why osgrid use the web delete procedure apparently is related to security

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well i did not commit all code changes i made on inventory.. but guess most there

[11:46] Arielle Popstar: oh and was there ever a wiki made up of the changes from .8.2 to .9.*?

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: yes seems in past some items where lost

[11:47] Arielle Popstar: like meaning whats better about .9?

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yes there is a wiki with some changes from 0.8

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: Andrew is doing that

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: (coff coff coff )

[11:47] Arielle Popstar: yes was just sort of throwing that out there :)

[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Been busy with some paying work that has a bit of time pressure on it.

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well a bit outdated not.. it is 0.8 -> 0.9.0.0.0

[11:48] Arielle Popstar: ?

[11:48] Arielle Popstar: .8->.9.0?

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a massive number of changes from 0.8 to 0.9

[11:49] Arielle Popstar: changes yes, but what are the benefits and additional features  that were not in .8.2?

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9.0.0_Release

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: that is there since the release

[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: That's just the very brief highlights.

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: of course, we do not want to spoil the fun of users discovering the diferences by themselfs duhhh

[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: By the time I finish going through the change logs for a more detailed set of changes I'll have to do it again for 0.9 to the next release.

[11:51] Bill Blight: I don't think this document has ever existed, was there one for .69 > .7x > 8x

[11:51] Arielle Popstar: looking attht list the only additional featre is UbOde physics

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: hmm bill ??

[11:51] Arielle Popstar: with a list of caveats about its usage on mesh from .8.2

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: there is even a 0.9.0.1 release notes

[11:52] Bill Blight: there are over a dozen new ossl functions, just for starters

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Right.

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well tells to read the 0.9.0.0 ones.. details :)

[11:52] Arielle Popstar: Justin always listed new features and benefits  of new releases

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: bahh spoilers..

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ;)

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, remember that 0.8 to 0.9 included two years worth of code changes from Avination. There were over 3,000 changelog entries for 0.8 to 0.9

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I still have 2,000 to review.

[11:54] Arielle Popstar: yes Andrew but a lot of that was  code doing  the same thing but  done in a different way

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: plus some 2000 more from 0.9.0.0 to 0.9.1.0 :)

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: well mb 500

[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: It would make more sense to track the changes somewhere as they are being done to make it easier to generate detailed release notes. That would be wishful thinking though. :)

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well to tell about diferences from 0.82 there is a minor issue.. what hell was 0.8.2 ???

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: :p

[11:55] Arielle Popstar: that would need documentation ...which i am told is in the code

[11:56] Arielle Popstar: pretty much does the same as .9 with the addition of a new physics engine

[11:57] Arielle Popstar: thats what i get from the linked page

[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit makes very brief change log entries which makes it difficult to know what actually changed in the code without looking at the changes. That complicates making a detailed release doc. I know I'm not going to look at every set of code changes.

[11:57] Arielle Popstar: not so many clouds anymore

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: read it better.. not a new physcis engine, just some improvements on bullet

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: oops the 0.9.0.1 release notes i mean

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.0.0 does tell about ubode as new engine and does mention all outstanding diferences

[12:00] Arielle Popstar: ok

[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: That brings us to the top of the hour. Any last minute item before we wrap up for today?

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: very hard/ impossible to list all details of changes

[12:01] George Equus: Thanks everyone.

[12:01] Arielle Popstar: probably only really the ones that make a difference to the user community

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: the ossl pages are kept more or less up to date

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd settle for some highlight of a change. :)

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: the new things even in test are there already

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Category:OSSL_Functions

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: like

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you next week.