Chat log from the meeting on 2008-02-05

I only caught the chatlog in the second half of the meeting, after the sim crashed through memory exhaustion the first time. Justincc 13:11, 5 February 2008 (PST)

[11:29] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: hi again

[11:30] Teravus Ousley: hehe, just disabled physics again to make sure it's working

[11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. I seem to be stuck.

[11:31] Lawson English: I be ruthed (Saijanai here)

[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not fly 4 me

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: yep. that's what it means to disable physics

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: .. no physics updates get done

[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok

[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: lol

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: mass login

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: thats good though it actually is able to handle that

[11:31] Teravus Ousley: everything gets completely locked into place that would have been done by physics

[11:32] Lawson English: I appear to fly, clientside though

[11:32] Teravus Ousley: it's good for testing and debugging

[11:33] You: charles: where are you getting your stats from. top?

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: wooooo

[11:34] Lawson English: does one mod appearance in rgular SL sim and then come here?

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: you have to create new parts

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in your inventory 1st

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: nah, you create new clothes/shape etc in inv

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: then wear 'em

[11:34] Babblefrog Ballistic: Then you can mod appearance

[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: justin. Yes, stats were coming from top

[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:35] You: anyway, where were we?

[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I think the comment was just made that we need to be more concerned about working on our memory footprint.

[11:36] You: heh :)

[11:37] You: Certainly it's something I will start thinking about, though there may be more experience people who can get to the root of the issues quicker

[11:37] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not delete my cube

[11:37] You: it may also be a multi-area problem

[11:37] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: as yesterday ;)

[11:37] Teravus Ousley: well, I have a feeling that in this case.. it might have been unacked bytes overload

[11:37] Charles Krinkeb: There is a universal law that goes "All software will expand to fill available RAM plus 20%"

[11:37] You: hmm okay, do you intend to look at that, Ter?

[11:37] Hiro Protagonist: lmao Charles

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. then a slowdown in clientview.. which just exasperated the problem

[11:38] Babblefrog Ballistic: Do we need to do a better job of marking packets reliable/not

[11:38] You: I ask only so we don't dupe effort

[11:38] Charles Krinkeb: Question: If two avatars cross a region boundary, are they still ANPC to each other and can they "wear" their shape/skin across said region boundaries yet?"

[11:38] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: where are pizza and hamburgers here ? ;)

[11:38] Teravus Ousley: well, that might help

[11:39] Babblefrog Ballistic: Or implement some way to toss packets if more recent ones supersede the old ones

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: it would be a good point of investigation,

[11:39] Neas Bade: Babblefrog, that would be really good to do

[11:39] Neas Bade: honestly, that should help a reasonable amonut on the network front I think

[11:39] Teravus Ousley: the other thing that will help is joha's packet patch. Which he said he was testing now and may have something ready two weeks

[11:39] Babblefrog Ballistic: Not that I have any clie how to do that :-)

[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I think that the network is really starting to become an issue for me

[11:40] You: Teravus: this is on top of the patch we saw a month or so ago?

[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I think that one got rolled back

[11:40] You: I thought it did but then it got back in once it was fixed

[11:40] Teravus Ousley: yep, it wasn't quite ready for prime time

[11:40] You: oh okay

[11:41] Teravus Ousley: so Joha made it function by generating new packets again

[11:41] You: I take it he's not working on it all the time then?

[11:42] Babblefrog Ballistic: My bandwidth is really spiky here. Looks like a symptom of something

[11:43] Babblefrog Ballistic: less than 20 for a few seconds, then about 450 for a few seconds, then back down again, repeat

[11:43] You: anybody have anything else they want to bring up? Apart from our memory footprint :)

[11:43] Teravus Ousley: yeah, on the textures for me

[11:43] Teravus Ousley: 0---450kb/s and back again.. over and over

[11:43] Babblefrog Ballistic: yeppers

[11:43] Diva Canto: so which one of you is working on search?

[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: strange

[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: oh, I wanted to bring up temp assets

[11:44] You: huh, so it is

[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: specifically, the purging thereof

[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone is working on search currently are they?

[11:44] You: Diva: I don't think anybody here is currently doing anything on search

[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: I dont think so at present

[11:44] Diva Canto: ok, cool, just wanted to make sure I don't step on anyone's foot :-)

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: might be something thats thought about in the next release

[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: .6

[11:45] You: diva: in my opinion, it would be good if it could be done largely outside the opensim codebase

[11:45] You: which would give you more freedom to just get stuff done with any language/license you like

[11:45] Babblefrog Ballistic: you can mark assets as "temp" in the region server and they don't get sent to the asset server. Terrain is handles this way, but I don't think anything else is

[11:45] Diva Canto: yep, that's what I think too

[11:45] Charles Krinkeb: I'm a bit distracted by two meetings.

[11:45] Diva Canto: the only thing that would need to be dome here are two things:

[11:46] Diva Canto: (1) the data representations and the sims

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: parhaps some kind of packet that we can send the client to use a cached version?

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: instead of requesting a new one?

[11:46] Teravus Ousley: (with the textures)

[11:46] Diva Canto: (a) the open search facility, which we now host at metaversink.com, but we'll be happy to pass it on to you

[11:46] Diva Canto: sirry that was (b) :-)

[11:47] Babblefrog Ballistic: textures: if it has a cached one, I don't think it should ever ask for another one, unless I misunderstand how things work

[11:47] You: babblefrog: yeah, that's true

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: wrt temp assets, I think my concern is to see them be truly temp, and purged from existence period regardless of grid/standalone mode

[11:47] Teravus Ousley: you'd think... but it is appearing to ask for them over and over again.

[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats really odd

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: *periodically, sorry :)

[11:47] You: hiro: yueah, you're talking about never passing them up to the asset server

[11:47] You: ping

[11:47] You: is there some way to specify that currently in the client?

[11:47] Babblefrog Ballistic: what should be temp? that's the question.

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: that, or being able to pass on to the asset server that they may be safely discarded

[11:48] You: diva: yeah, I think it's going to be a long process - I think you'll need considerable persistence unless somewhere is really taken with it (dalien sounded quite keen?)_

[11:48] Hiro Protagonist: well, BF, for instance, textures that are supplied via URL

[11:48] You: sorry s/somewhere/someone

[11:49] You: arse

[11:49] You: diva: though I'm happy to help somewhat - I'm constrained by the fact that IBM doesn't allow me to incorporate 3rd party code into opensim

[11:49] Hiro Protagonist: LoL

[11:49] You: chat lagging

[11:49] Babblefrog Ballistic: you should be able to flag them as temp when you load them, and they will never get to the db, though they stay in the asset cache indefinitely

[11:49] Neas Bade: any of the 3Di guys around?

[11:49] You: babble: oh, there's somethign int he client?

[11:49] Charles Krinkeb: Chi was here.

[11:49] Neas Bade: I just noticed a press release by them on open source voice

[11:50] You: babbleforg: can't see anything obvious

[11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: no, I was thinking in the region. Are URL assets loaded directly by the client?

[11:50] Diva Canto: Justin: I don't think we need to incorporate much code, almost nothing really

[11:50] You: diva: hmm, sounds good

[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: They would seem to be from looking at the logs

[11:50] Diva Canto: from what I understand OpenSim already has the ability to generate XML representation of the things inside, right?

[11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: And do they get sent to the region, then?

[11:50] You: diva: yes

[11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Diva, Yes

[11:51] You: babblefrog: I think so, then the region passes them on to the asset server

[11:51] Babblefrog Ballistic: why the heck would they do that? :-)

[11:51] Diva Canto: so, that should be pretty straightforward. The server just needs to respond to requests to send those xml files to whoever asks

[11:51] You: if you're talking about vanilla client upload... (I might have the wrong end of the stick)

[11:52] Babblefrog Ballistic: I may be completely confused...

[11:52] Diva Canto: There's some issues we should have in mind about access controls, ,security, privacy, and that stuff; I'm not sure exactly what it's being spit out, but I'm sure that can be worked out

[11:52] Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 30% CPU, 768MByte VIRT

[11:52] You: diva: permissions are largely unimplemented at the moment (in terms of opensim native perms)

[11:53] You: charles: yeah, asset cache is low, so it's definitely not that

[11:53] Diva Canto: ok, so we can start with that -- no permission. They can be added later

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: crashed again

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: anyone have chat logs enabled?

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i dont

[11:53] You: diva: persumably you need t the location of objects in regions?

[11:53] Diva Canto: but essentially, all a search engine needs is to be able to get those XML files

[11:53] Diva Canto: yes, locations would be good

[11:53] Babblefrog Ballistic: I'm still not sure what permissions we should implement. Are we thinking of replicating the LL permissions?

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: nope we're still missing a packet that allows for the chats to be logged

[11:54] Diva Canto: I would hope you would do better than LL's permissions

[11:54] You: well, I guess we're a little constrained by the client atm

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: disabling physics again. looks like thigns are starting to get out of controll possibly

[11:54] You: untl other clients come along it will be difficult to do anything different with perms...?

[11:54] You: teravus: you can disable physics on the fly?

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: I'm disabling physics to see if they start to get under control

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: yes

[11:54] Diva Canto: so is there any way that I can ask a grid to give me the names of the sims in it?

[11:54] Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 25% CPU, 905MByte VIRT

[11:54] Teravus Ousley: physics is disabled

[11:55] Diva Canto: (I tried with libsecondlife here, but it didn't work)

[11:55] You: teravus: cool

[11:55] Hiro Protagonist: Diva: http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/list_regions.php

[11:55] Charles Krinkeb: OSGrid can read the regions table and present it at http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/sims.php now, Diva.

[11:55] Teravus Ousley: are we getting any better on memory, Charles?

[11:55] You: I suspect Diva wants an automated method?

[11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: what is the CPU used for this server ?

[11:55] You: 917mb

[11:55] Diva Canto: yes, automated would be much better

[11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: 386DX40 ? ;)

[11:56] Diva Canto: and not just the regions but, in the case I grab XML files, I need to know the server names

[11:56] Teravus Ousley: ok, alas. was an idea

[11:56] Diva Canto: I'd like something like this: tagus.ics.uci.edu:9000/tagus.xml -- or something to that effect

[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: man crash party 2008

[11:56] You: Diva: well, I think most region communication is udp to clients atm (apart from caps)

[11:57] You: Please someone shout me down if I'm talking out of my arse

[11:57] Diva Canto: ok, I can write a little client to do that. I still need the names of the servers to contact, though

[11:57] Babblefrog Ballistic: and the interregions stuff which is dotnet remoting

[11:57] You: Diva: so exposing the xml will require an open port on the servers for some kind of rest like request, I iomagine

[11:58] Babblefrog Ballistic: Can we add a rest server to the existing http service on the regions?

[11:58] Diva Canto: have yo uguys thought of sticking an HTTP server along with the opensim server?

[11:58] Lawson English: UDP is 95^ of all packet types and 99% + of all packets

[11:58] You: well, there already are http servers running for things

[11:58] Diva Canto: that would be really handy! that way, the sims can serve images too, which are nice to show in search results

[11:59] Diva Canto: all done by the individual sims, no need to put that at the grid

[11:59] Lawson English: careful you don't get into the trap LL is currently in where sims do too much

[11:59] You: sometimes sims are people's boxes sitting in their garage

[11:59] You: connected over a DSL :)

[11:59] Diva Canto: yes -- like mine, for example. not im my garage, but here in my office :-)

[11:59] Lawson English: even so, design-wise, might be better to factor it off to the side

[12:00] Babblefrog Ballistic: this should be small, just serving up whatever data the search server needs to index

[12:00] Hiro Protagonist: that's me :)

[12:00] Babblefrog Ballistic: one xml file

[12:00] Charles Krinkeb: 11 avatars, 28% CPU, 1015MByte VIRT

[12:00] Hiro Protagonist: (box, garage, DSL lmao)

[12:00] Diva Canto: yep -- an xml file for the indexing is a great start

[12:00] Diva Canto: them, the images for the search results would be nice too. but we can talk about that later if you are concerned about performance

[12:01] Diva Canto: *then

[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to grab some lunch :)

[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: see y'all soon

[12:01] You: bye hiro

[12:01] Teravus Ousley: take care man

[12:01] Diva Canto: bye

[12:01] Hiro Protagonist waves

[12:01] You: we're up to 1100mb I see

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: paging territory

[12:02] You: just pushed up to 1139mb even with the log off :)

[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Me. Too. I need to go. Its great that we can support as many as we did. It is unfortunate we seem to be up against memory limits.

[12:02] You: 1181mb

[12:02] You: I'm going to stand here until ewverything go boom

[12:02] Teravus Ousley: it seems to curve faster as it gets worse

[12:02] Babblefrog Ballistic: I need to go too. nice talking to everybody.

[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Diva. Try to take some time and walk around the plaza here and see a) hall of scripts and b) video booths.

[12:02] You: 1197mb

[12:03] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok but what is the proc ? ;)

[12:03] You: bye babblefrog

[12:03] Diva Canto: same here. I'll try the IRC later to continue this conversation about search. I think it can happen very quickly, with a little help on your side :-)

[12:03] You: 1209mb

[12:03] Diva Canto: it'd be very cool!

[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: Bye

[12:03] You: Diva: hmm, I think actually there's quite a few complications in the way

[12:03] Diva Canto: yes justin? tell me

[12:03] You: it's something which really needs to be kicked around on sldev imo

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: wow its almost like we are making a microsoft product

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i know how we can fix it

[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: make 8 gig memory requirement

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: baam

[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: prolem solved

[12:04] You: nebadon heh

[12:04] You: diva: well, I think it's getting something which is solid and can be used by anybody who wants to come along an implement a search server

[12:04] You: which always takes time to nail down

[12:04] You: but then, some other dev may come along and hack something up quickly to make me look silly :)

[12:05] You: it;'s happened before (more than once)

[12:05] Neas Bade: it would be nice to get the search bar in the client to come back to us

[12:05] Diva Canto: ok, I understand. We've been doing SL search fr several months, so I know a lot about what it takes to make one. But I think this needs to be discussed amongst yourselves. So that's cool.

[12:06] You: Diva: oh I'm sure you're correct on the search front, it's just the interface that concerns me

[12:06] Diva Canto: yeah, I know. It should be pretty solid there

[12:06] Diva Canto: and make a coherent story with lots of other things

[12:07] Neas Bade: honestly, I'm not sure that we actually need a seperate database for search

[12:07] You: but to be honest, unless a dev is really intetested, I don't think all that much will happen unless you push it

[12:07] Neas Bade: though I should get in on the thread

[12:07] You: lots of other things to fix (such as this memory issue)

[12:07] Diva Canto: How can I push it without being "pushy" ? :-)

[12:07] Neas Bade: pulling in lucene (or another Open Source search engine) based on object metadata probably will work pretty well enough

[12:07] You: diva: heh good question - patches are always good ;)

[12:08] Diva Canto: ok, I'll start lookign at your code for generating XML

[12:08] You: 1221mb, but we seem to bhave stablizied somewhat

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: well frame time is getting longer?

[12:08] You: diva: you're going to be frightened I think

[12:08] Diva Canto: is it that ugly, hey ? :-)

[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[12:08] You: ugly duckling

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: well consider that the simulator is running slower then it should be right now

[12:08] Teravus Ousley: .. maximum frame time should be 100ms *total*

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: otherwise we're doing too much

[12:09] You: Teravus: I see what you mean

[12:09] You: that pesky (Other) time again

[12:09] Diva Canto: ok, I'll take a look at the ugly duckling, and see how frithened I get

[12:09] Teravus Ousley: 100 ms is how much time in between frames at 10 frames per second

[12:10] You: 1279mb

[12:10] You: rate of increase has slowed but still increasing

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: oh btw incase everyone doesnt know, i fixed the forgot password form on http://www.osgrid.org

[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe seeing More Wrights name reminded me

[12:11] Neas Bade: heh

[12:11] Diva Canto: ok, nice to meet your avatars in person!

[12:11] You: nice to meet you Diva

[12:11] Diva Canto: ttyl!

[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: later

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: check out the usage of the OSL over by the video screens too

[12:12] You: 1298mb

[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: using the Dynamic Texture load

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that bounce is wierd

[12:15] You: did anybody get the chat log before the interregnum?

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i crashed about 5 times

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i got nohin

[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: nothin

[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting to turn on chat logs

[12:16] You: ah,I forgot to save it when I relogged when charles rebooted the region server

[12:16] Teravus Ousley: no, we still have not implemented the packet that turns chat logging ability on.