Chat log from the meeting on 2021-12-21

 [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby, Andrew, Motoko [11:03] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Hello ^_^ [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Hihi Andrew [11:05] Kayaker Magic: Hello Andrew, and everyone else [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie. [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Kayaker, Jamoie [11:06] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Not much in the way of news about OS code changes made this past week. Most of the changes were code clean up and updating some dll files. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: brb [11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That did end up breaking some things with DTL money by the way requiring rebuilding of that with a fresh OpenSim as base otherwise the mysql connector for that fails [11:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Jamie, Kayaker [11:09] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Selby [11:09] Kayaker Magic: Hmmm, I always rebuild DTL every time with OpenSim anyway.... [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Ubit. [11:10] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: wb ubit [11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Mariadb 10.7 is set to enter the second to last round of testing before release soon, that will finally bring a UUID type along for it, which could be quite useful as it might reduce database size and access times as that will be about 20% less bytes to be sent compared to varchars [11:10] Ubit Umarov: ty [11:10] Ubit Umarov: my viewer was doing things :) [11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Think we had a discussion on that on irc not long ago [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I hope it is not mine... [11:11] Ubit Umarov: oops [11:11] Ubit Umarov: no gavin it isn't :) [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see? :-) [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: speaking of which, there was a new version released on Friday at https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/ [11:12] Ubit Umarov: ty [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I was just about ask you if you had any news on the viewer front. :) [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and LL released a viewer with both the new cache and the 360 panorama camera [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The whole object cache thing blew up all the way to LL, feel like I stepped on a landmine [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I'll have to implement the new cache for release next year [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the 360 panorama, IDK - have to test it first [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Next Year is only a few weeks away! [11:14] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: :) [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I thi9nk the cache change is less than 50 commits [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so [11:15] Kayaker Magic: LL released and took back the "simplified cache" once before, is that when you had trouble with it Vincent? Or more recently? [11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I can't see the LL tickets on their tracker so no idea what the status is on that, but I hope that gets fixed [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, but not this year [11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: At least I am not just seeing things and it's actually a bug, though given how relatively simple it is to run into it surprising it took this long to be found [11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Would think between all the users of SL someone would have run into this at some point [11:17] Ubit Umarov: not sure the 360 thing will work here [11:17] Ubit Umarov: is is a very silly idea [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Not exactly a first for LL. [11:18] Ubit Umarov: contrary to what one wants in terms of interest management [11:18] Ubit Umarov: maybe ok for sl tiny regions with no more than 20k prims [11:18] Ubit Umarov: even so... [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have seen so many 360 implemementations since QuickTime in 1994, and they are all wow immedeately, but the use fade away almost instantly [11:19] Ubit Umarov: it is a nonsense [11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: What's that even supposed to be for? Making videos? VR? [11:19] Ubit Umarov: this are suposed to be 3d (on 2d) this already [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are for panoramas on 2D [11:20] Ubit Umarov: yeah not sure.. to export 360 snapshots? [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes something like that [11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So just like firing up recorder, turning avatar around and then using imagick to splice the individual frames [11:21] Ubit Umarov: wel guess another thing someone offered making noise abotu it, and they just accepted :) [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of development time wasted if you ask me, but [11:21] Ubit Umarov: i did read somewhere that they had to make region side changes to suport it [11:22] Ubit Umarov: so.. may not work here [11:22] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If it was complete photosphere that might be nice to create some sort of streetview thing, but really then that makes more sense as sort of full 3d video for some attractions of particularly pretty regions [11:22] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That I can see being a somewhat cool thing to promote virtual worlds, but beyond that [11:25] Ubit Umarov: i had idea viewers where already 360 things.. but well [11:25] Ubit Umarov: details [11:26] Ubit Umarov: btw that issue vicent did report on mantis about viewer object cache was reproduced by fs at sl [11:26] Ubit Umarov: and even with SL viewer [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the next thing is to implement LIDAR in the viewer, so you can aorbit around objects and record point clouds [11:26] Ubit Umarov: so fs just passed the problem to ll [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: orbit* [11:26] Ubit Umarov: guess gavin will also wait for ll fix :) [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: really :-) [11:27] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Gavin raycast does that I would think, turning the output of that into a point cloud wouldn't be hard, just really cpu heavy [11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will stop all other development awaiting that fix [11:27] Ubit Umarov: ofc [11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: We all know how to get a 360 view with any viewer. No added benefit that I see. [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: On the latest iOS Apple launched some sw and support to take photos of real world objects and convert to object files with textures and all [11:28] Ubit Umarov: well seems that new ll viewer ( or some beta one) has even a worse issue [11:28] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: dont know ifthis came up before i could get here, but has the log4J issue been discussed already? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: objects just rez do not showup [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will try it to import something in here [11:28] Ubit Umarov: we had no log4j issue [11:29] Ubit Umarov: that is a java specific issue [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: It was discussed in the mailing list. [11:29] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ty andrew. [11:30] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I hadnt had time to sit down and go through all the dependencies yet [11:30] Ubit Umarov: well the discution was actually about a diferent issue on log4net [11:30] Ubit Umarov: not related to the log4j one [11:30] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh ok [11:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We also tend to not discuss security things all that openly for obvious reasons [11:30] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: smh duh [11:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There were some things with xmlrpc in the past, but that's dealt with [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, someone mentioned log4j on the mailing list and it became a discussion about log4net as OS doesn't use log4j as Ubit stated. [11:30] Ubit Umarov: normal xml nonsense [11:31] Ubit Umarov: amasing how some keep "Loving" xml [11:31] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: lol [11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well was amasing how ppl started "loving" it in first place [11:32] Ubit Umarov: unfortunatly that includes LL [11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I thought the current crush was on json [11:32] Ubit Umarov: and was made a lot worse whne they started moving things to http, ofc using a variant of xml [11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeah for many not json the the big thing [11:33] Ubit Umarov: but ll still not there either [11:33] Ubit Umarov: llsd xml is stil their love [11:34] Ubit Umarov: witg a heretic now and then using llsd notation [11:34] Ubit Umarov: ofc we had to had hardcore xml on our robust, oars etc [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: llsdjson [11:35] Ubit Umarov: and ofc not only human readable but very verbose so all clear [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: makrketplace (their) use json. I am going to remove that code completely [11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I was reading up on new http3 the other day and how it implements udp as "reliable" connection and all I could think of was lludp and it's reputation for being so incredibly reliable that we all never have connection issues right. I swear we are turning in circles in some ways with all that lately, going back to the same bad ideas of the last century [11:36] Ubit Umarov: that means things named like <... [11:36] Ubit Umarov: oen needes to use long names for things on serielization only machines will read, right? [11:37] Ubit Umarov: http3 just uses another prococol made on top of udp to replace tcp [11:37] Ubit Umarov: lludp was one, petty ll just broke it, instead if improving [11:38] Ubit Umarov: the use of UDP is just because it was avaiable [11:38] Ubit Umarov: th lowest level is not usable [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: "the cloud" did not want anything to do with udp [11:38] Ubit Umarov: ir the IP level on the stack, is i remember [11:39] Ubit Umarov: well google says yes.. so all will use it soon or later [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless congres splits it before [11:39] Ubit Umarov: congress as no word on that [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on splitting google? [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think they do [11:40] Ubit Umarov: is it still a usa thing? [11:40] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: are we referring to the anti-monopoly laws? [11:40] Ubit Umarov: and dont they own halt to congress? :P [11:40] Ubit Umarov: half even.. [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also the company now known as "the worst company of 2021" could be split [11:40] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: :)) [11:41] Ubit Umarov: well tcp is a stream orented protocol.. it tries to keep a "wire" connected all the time [11:41] Ubit Umarov: http3 thing is a connection oriented thing.. [11:42] Ubit Umarov: more enfasis on fast connect/disconnect that is a pain on tcp [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure but some data can just be blasted out there and nobody cares if it is received [11:42] Ubit Umarov: lludp is a message oriented protocol, suposely even lighter [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: The order of packets is also not guaranteed with UDP. [11:43] Ubit Umarov: look they use UDP bc there is nothitn else on the protocol [11:43] Ubit Umarov: and UDP only adds a bit of things on packets relative to lower level on the stack [11:43] Ubit Umarov: so it is almost as the basic packets any can use [11:43] Jagga Meredith: well, there's Appletalok but I don't think it's routable [11:44] Ubit Umarov: that does have a kernel exposed interface [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Appletalk? - that is last millennia [11:44] Ubit Umarov: any can make a protocol to replace tcp using it [11:44] Ubit Umarov: and many did [11:44] Ubit Umarov: ll and not google just 2 [11:44] Ubit Umarov: and now.. [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it could be routed [11:45] Ubit Umarov: same as tcp [11:45] Ubit Umarov: just depends on what is added [11:45] Ubit Umarov: sure routers are high level things [11:45] Ubit Umarov: that know abotu tcp [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I remember in 1989 when our Microsoft mail servers in Norway started syncing up with the servers in Anchorage because someone established a route that was not intended for that purpose at all [11:46] Ubit Umarov: so that may not get some speedups ( or slow downs) routers do for tcp [11:46] Ubit Umarov: in fact routers even look into http level [11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: these servers only understood Appletalk [11:46] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:47] Ubit Umarov: well guess some of the speedups of that use of udp are misleathing [11:47] Ubit Umarov: to start, UPD packets have priority over tcp, in order to protect video and audio [11:48] Ubit Umarov: so they are riding on that.. possible with very negative impact on "real time" things using udp [11:48] Ubit Umarov: ofc google does not care... they just want their servers faster [11:49] Ubit Umarov: then they did same just a few packets at stat of a connection and on closing [11:49] Ubit Umarov: in fact to close tcp is pretty bad [11:50] Ubit Umarov: resources need to stay allocated for a long time after closing a tcp connection [11:50] Ubit Umarov: like those sockets in TIME_WAIT etc [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In case a turtle pakcet comes in 5 minutes late? [11:51] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:51] Ubit Umarov: bc f multi path [11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It's a battle cry against paying for bandwidth because the large carriers are making billions without actually really upgrading the aging infrastructure, because they know most don't have a choice if they want to remain on the internet. All the major carriers been stuck in that for a few years now, only started to become an issue now with the 20% increase of traffic due to lockdowns [11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Plus all the cloud crap moving stuff around from datacenter to datacenter for no reason [11:52] Ubit Umarov: well google code make a lot for the bandwiht by just increasing the ttl of their DNS entries [11:53] Ubit Umarov: dns is a big part of the traffic [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: We are less than 10 minutes before the top of the hour. Does anyone else have any OpenSimulator related questions? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: ahh that http3 also does ssl at low level [11:53] Ubit Umarov: ssl is mandatory with it [11:54] Ubit Umarov: ( saves one or 2 packets on creating a secure connection ) [11:54] Ubit Umarov: the fact it forces a useless and heavy ssl is a detail they do not care :p [11:55] Ubit Umarov: hate how all think they need "secure" connections [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Did you have something you wanted to ask, Michael? I thought I saw you typing. [11:56] Ubit Umarov: our chat here is even been recorded to put on a public site [11:56] Ubit Umarov: why would we use "secure" connections on it? [11:56] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: OpenSim has some obscure data structures that you can happily send over http because unless you know how to decode that mess you can't get any info from that data [11:57] Ubit Umarov: that is a xml bs claim [11:57] Ubit Umarov: one always need to know what the data is.. no matter the claim [11:58] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: osUTF8 asciibytes I don't even base64 encoded mess lol [11:58] Ubit Umarov: ( and who said humans don't read binary?? jezzz ) [11:58] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:58] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ubit - i can see how end users might have little to no reason for secure connections, but... i dont see how we could allow http for some while securing just the pieces (like for businesses) that need it. [11:58] Kayaker Magic: Gavin, can you give me an overview of what slvoice.exe does? [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no [11:59] Kayaker Magic: LOL [11:59] Ubit Umarov: lol [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a black box [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only LL has the code [11:59] Kayaker Magic: I was wondereing why vivox is necessary for local voice communication between avtars next to each other on the same server. [11:59] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: rofl @kayaker/Gavin - if we had that we'd have our own better version up [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it sits between the vieer and vivox servers, but exactly what it does... [12:00] Ubit Umarov: it also does the messy work of control the mic, and audion things [12:00] Ubit Umarov: audio.. [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [12:00] Ubit Umarov: it is basicly a softwarePhone [12:00] Ubit Umarov: under control of the viewer [12:01] Ubit Umarov: infact it was born as just a SIP phone [12:01] Ubit Umarov: and still is [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what that is necessary? I guess it is set up like that beecause vivox sells additional services that can be overlaid the voice [12:01] Ubit Umarov: reason why freeswitch workds [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for a voice chat (that does not work on opensim) it just establishes the connection, the rest is handled locally [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or peer to peer rather [12:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Essentially generates something the audio stuff can hook into, doesn't directly handle it, just bridges one to the other, but just break it open with a hammer to see what it does in detail [12:03] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. it is a modified SIP phone [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think one viewer developer has the slvoice.exe code, but they don't part with it [12:04] Ubit Umarov: and who cares abotu that code.. it depends on having viviox accounts [12:05] Ubit Umarov: the original spec is open [12:05] Ubit Umarov: somewhere on ll sites [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyone can have that if you pay [12:05] Ubit Umarov: seen their charge rates? :) [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure [12:05] Ubit Umarov: and even no idea if they want any opensim now [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did not say if you can afford to pay ;-) [12:06] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:06] Ubit Umarov: fact is that the need to use the new version is blabla [12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Even if you do I doubt you'd get more bandwidth or higher codecs anyways [12:06] Ubit Umarov: SL is using the same old version [12:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Have you listened to that lately, it sounds like tin cans connected over string [12:07] Ubit Umarov: vivox uses payed codecs [12:07] Ubit Umarov: think now their own [12:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It sounds an awful lot like some variant of speex frankly, given the level of quality we get [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that old mumble or what it is called use a 2.4ish kHz connection [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ppl did wrote in past "...high definition, royalty-free Siren 14 (G 722.1C) voice codec" [12:08] Ubit Umarov: in fact NO.. they did use the closed pay version of Siren [12:08] Ubit Umarov: then added 3d features to it [12:09] Ubit Umarov: and no one has that codec but vivox, ofc [12:09] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ofc [12:09] Kayaker Magic: What is the relationship between vivox (or any voice code) and the fmod library? [12:09] Ubit Umarov: none [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why slvoice.exe is a blackbox [12:09] Ubit Umarov: just both mess with audio :) [12:10] Ubit Umarov: but on viewers fmod is to play things [12:10] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: kayaker, was it you that talked to me last OSCC about trying to work on freeswitch, or have i lost someone? [12:10] Ubit Umarov: no relation at all with voice [12:10] Kayaker Magic: Nor me! [12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: was IMA [12:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ask lisa [12:11] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ty selby [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: slap in a Telegraam voice client in the viewer if people want to chat one on one or conference [12:12] Ubit Umarov: ofc the ppl who made mumble work on opensim back then, made a slvoice.exe replacement [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only objection is it gets handled via Dubai and not some US company [12:13] Ubit Umarov: sources somewhere [12:13] Ubit Umarov: ima is remaking that [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: This appears to be the source for Mumble -> https://github.com/mumble-voip/mumble [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Last code update was two days ago. [12:15] Ubit Umarov: duhh that is the main server thing [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: It is now a quarter past the hour mark. Any final comments or questions re: OpenSimulator for today? [12:16] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: not for today here, thoughts for next week :) [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... while the server should work on anything Qt can be installed on. [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good old Qt [12:17] Ubit Umarov: oops i just made a commit [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lol [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Remove the mumble word off the end of that URL and you will see a lot of related projects. [12:17] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: :)) [12:17] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: thanks everybody have a great week [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it send a "merry Christmas" broadcast to all users? [12:18] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: marry christmas/happy holidays! [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: The VLC program is now showing its icon with a Santa hat on top. :) [12:18] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Merry Christmas [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Merry Christmas to those of you who celebrate Christmas. I hope you all enjoy the holidays. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week. [12:19] Michael.Christopher @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: have a great week all! [12:19] Ubit Umarov: Ohh it that that time of the year again [12:19] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Thank you.. Merry Christmas as well... [12:19] Ubit Umarov: merry xmas ppl :) [12:19] Kayaker Magic: bye all, and thanks for the discussion and information! [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Merry Christmas all! [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost the end of another year again. [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or God Jul as we vikings say