Chat log from the meeting on 2010-09-07

[17:30] Frank Northmead is Online

[17:37] Frank Northmead is Offline

[17:41] Richardus Raymaker is Online

[17:46] Frank Northmead is Online

[17:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon

[17:47] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[17:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello

[17:57] Richardus Raymaker: hi adella

[17:57] Master Dubrovna: Hi everyone

[17:57] Richardus Raymaker: its still quite. but..

[17:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: Nebadon, do you mind if i test something this meeting? a meeting chat logger

[17:58] Richardus Raymaker: the last 48 hours or so i talk to people that have TP problems to there region. dont know why

[17:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: i couldnt tp here, but logged in fine

[17:59] Richardus Raymaker: i try to TP there region to, most times i see auth failure

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: sure Adelle

[17:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool, thanks

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: as long as yuo dont think it willcrash the sim or anything

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[17:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: nah, it shouldnt at all

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Richardus ive not heard anyone mention that

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: people have been having TP problems pretty much forever

[17:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku. you really need a rebake

[18:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably

[18:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: hmm, cant rez it, can you please Neb

[18:00] Penny Lane is Online

[18:00] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[18:01] Adelle Fitzgerald gave you Meeting Chat Logger.

[18:01] Richardus Raymaker: Hi Justin.

[18:01] Meeting Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been enabled. You can view the log at:

http://www.dreamtechnologies.co.uk/meetinglog/meetinglog.html

[18:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hello richardus, hello guys

[18:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool, thanks Neb :)

[18:01] Nebadon Izumi: no problem

[18:02] Andrew Hellershanks waves hello

[18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny

[18:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Here we are on another Tuesday afternoon

[18:02] Andrew Hellershanks: or morning based on the local clock of this region

[18:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin, and everyone

[18:03] Justin Clark-Casey: evening, actually

[18:03] Justin Clark-Casey: well, where I am

[18:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello everyone

[18:03] Penny Lane: Hi open peoples :-)

[18:04] Penny Lane: (Being simultaneously in a meeting of closed peoples too :P)

[18:04] Richardus Raymaker: still curious why this tv works fine

[18:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been fighting with OS today. I've got a problem with groups all of a sudden and an instance I can't

TP to any more.

[18:04] Nebadon Izumi: thats pretty cool script logger AdelleF

[18:04] Nebadon Izumi: you can watch in realtime the chat

[18:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:04] Richardus Raymaker: someone else told me his region stopped working

[18:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: yep :)

[18:04] Richardus Raymaker: after it worked a short time fine

[18:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: if today goes ok, ill release the code on the scripting forum

[18:04] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: groups on 0.7?

[18:04] Andrew Hellershanks: 069

[18:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that code needs some love even on 069

[18:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: it uses php to log to a text file, and ajax for the realtime web viewer

[18:05] Richardus Raymaker: i think on lbsa someone else where there with group problems to

[18:05] Andrew Hellershanks: They used to work. I'm getting error with it connecting to I something connector.

[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: Groups definatly doesnt work on 0.7 yet Justin

[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: hippo's version he was using was aincnet

[18:05] Justin Clark-Casey: ho HUM

[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: it was basiclly made to work no matter what

[18:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hacked up? :)

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: and have virtually no security to it

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya its a very old version

[18:06] Richardus Raymaker: stil bad news nebadon

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: probably like 2 years old

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes it seems that the longer I have OS running and the more I update/fix things, the more problems I

run in to. Including breakage of things that used to work.

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: it was just so old, that most of the stuff was made to just work no matter what

[18:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Gets annoying after a while

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: lots of hackery

[18:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a complex system

[18:06] Richardus Raymaker whispers: 0.2.1 ? :O|

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: what problem are you having with Groups Andrew?

[18:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I type a message for a group and nothing happens.

[18:07] Andrew Hellershanks: the text I typed never appears.

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: Group IM/

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: ?

[18:07] Richardus Raymaker: ohhh. that one

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: that is a setting for the group

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: one sec

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: i have a solution

[18:07] Richardus Raymaker: not tryed the trick myself

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: there is no trick

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: its a setting

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: http://news.osgrid.org/2010/07/14/enabling-group-im/

[18:08] Andrew Hellershanks looks...

[18:08] Justin Clark-Casey: but didn't you say it was working before?

[18:09] Richardus Raymaker: ill wait with testing

[18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... let me check that setting...

[18:09] Frank Northmead is Offline

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: probably using older version of groups maybe? is this on OSgrid or somewhere else Andrew?

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: some of the older versions of groups php had things short circuited so they just worked

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what perms you had etc..

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: so if you upgraded to the latest groups code you might find things just stop working all the sudden

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: not sure, but it could be why

[18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: this is going to be another annoying thing with groups, there might need to be separate branches for any

0.7 fixes

[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe, if the breaks are truly in opensim

[18:11] Penny Lane: Hey Justin, any news on the possible Opensim contrib policy changes re LL's junk? That's got so many people

excited. :-)

[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i still dont know even where to look or what to look for honestly

[18:11] Key Gruin is Online

[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: still waiting for our pro bono legal advice. Unfortunately there were some incidents with spam

buckets

[18:12] Richardus Raymaker: poenny, do you have more info about that. think i missed something

[18:12] Penny Lane: Rich: I have no info on that.

[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it's a debugging exercise

[18:13] Richardus Raymaker: what policy changes do you mean then ?

[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: complicated by the fact that bugs could be either in opensim or in flotsam. Probably both and to do with

the interaction between them

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya sounds good, im certainly up for testing whatever

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: i just dont even know where to start honestly

[18:13] Frank Northmead is Online

[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, if I do anything serious in that php I'll get the urge to rewrite it...

[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and I really don't have that kind of time

[18:14] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ty. That seems to have fixed it. Can't set the flag for owners but I've set it in all roles of

the group that gave me a problem.

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya we thought about gloablly setting it for all groups

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: but decided that it wasnt a good idea

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: better to let the group owners set it themselves

[18:15] Penny Lane: Rich: I merely check on progress on the topic here. Nothing's known except that Opensim is considering changing the

contrib policy w.r.to looking at LL's code, after LL changed their license to LGPL. No info beyond that. Justin's giving us updates if any

appear. :-)

[18:15] Richardus Raymaker: aha, that story. ok read more about that on irc days ago

[18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I will definitely update.

[18:16] Jor3l Boa: hello

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: would you say that the snowstorm community is sympathetic to opensim requirements?

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: hello jr3l

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: jor3l

[18:17] Jor3l Boa: hey Justin

[18:17] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, my groups problem was not on osgrid

[18:17] Andrew Hellershanks: and I haven't updated grid support files recently

[18:17] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia

[18:17] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia

[18:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello Dahlia

[18:17] Dahlia Trimble: small crowd today

[18:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: btw, are you still using the AppDomainLoading switch?

[18:18] Justin Clark-Casey: to false, that is

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes its set to false

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: this region is set to false right now

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: all the plazas are

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: runs 1000 times better

[18:18] Justin Clark-Casey: no memory leak accumulation over time?

[18:18] Penny Lane: JCC: Most of the Snowstorm community doesn't really care much, they're focussed on SL (and LL doesn't care at all).

But the few people who do care realize that it would break the grip that LL has over Opensim through its viewer, so we're dead excited for

what it would mean for Opensim :-)

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: there is but not nearly as bad

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: now after 24 hours the sim is using like 1.4-1.6 gb ram on top

[18:19] Nebadon Izumi: vs 4 to 5gb

[18:19] Nebadon Izumi: and cpu is much lower too

[18:19] Nebadon Izumi: this still go pretty horrible after 12-20 hours though

[18:19] OtakuMegane Desu: What is this setting, exactly?

[18:19] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty much impossible to have any plaza run more than 24 hours without being restarted

[18:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum

[18:20] Justin Clark-Casey: otakumegane: in OpenSim.ini there is a setting called AppDomainLoading

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: AppDomainLoading = false

[18:20] Richardus Raymaker: thats a new switch option for me.

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: is what you want it set too

[18:20] Justin Clark-Casey: by default this is true, meaning all scripts load in separate app domains (which allows memoery to be

reclaimed when they go away)

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: which is false

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: it never ever ever ever in a million years gives any memory back ever

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, I wonder if Melanie knows that

[18:21] OtakuMegane Desu: So basically a well-meant feature that's utterly broken.

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: pretty much, there are some security risks too

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know. But loading in spearate app domains definitely has a much much higher memory overhead and

makes scripts slower

[18:21] Richardus Raymaker: whats that setting do, does someone know ?

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: but nothing thats worth trading 4-5 times more memory usage

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: problem now is if one script blows up the domain, all scripts die

[18:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: but either way sims crash so often it doesnt matter

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: you've seen that happen?

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: nope

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: it runs much better with it set to false

[18:22] Jor3l Boa: I'm working a web based .ini generator we should document the current .ini better

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: the sim died much more with it set to true

[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I wouldn't have thought it any worse than with separate app domains

[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: ok,

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya but the potential is there

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: say we do get things running really awesome

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: it could happen maybe 1 in 10,000 times

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but I'm not sure app domains even helps with that. Anyway, I need to read up further - nearly up to

that chapter in my c# book ;)

[18:23] Richardus Raymaker: and, any luck with 2.8.1 testing ? i like to test it when i finishd my other problem. but i cannot lock my

coordinates in osgrid

[18:23] Frank Northmead is Offline

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: not really Richardus

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: things pretty much suck right now in 2.8.1

[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, ppl running regions with lots of scripts might want to try AppDomainLoading = false

[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: on linux at least

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: there is pretty much zero memory usage changes even running the new Garbage Collector

[18:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill give that a shot

[18:23] Dahlia Trimble: ini creation tools would be nice but difficult to keep in sync with trunk and various other versions in use

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: it seems most of the memory issues with OpenSimulator

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: are not related to mono

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: they are internal issues with our programming

[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: there is already a 'configger' tool in trunk, but no doc afaik

[18:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[18:24] Richardus Raymaker: ok. so no use to test it for now then

[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that's what I would think. We are more likely to be the problem

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: nah i wouldnt even bother

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: there are major comms issues with mono 2.8.1

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: for instance

[18:24] Frank Northmead is Online

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: in Danger grid i have a region running mono 2.8.1

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: if i isolated it away from all other regions it runs fairly well

[18:25] OtakuMegane Desu: I kinda figured by this point. Mono is far from perfect but it was seeming odd that after months and months

they improved nothing in mono for memory problems

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: if i place it next to a region running mono 2.4.2.3 as soon as i log into the region running mono 2.8.1 it just

crashes to bash

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: no error nothing

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: just boom, welcome back bash prompt

[18:25] Richardus Raymaker: curious what the are doing then..

[18:25] Dahlia Trimble: seems the last good version was 2.4.2.1

[18:25] Dahlia Trimble: downhill since

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya pretty much Dahlia

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: I'm on 2.6.4

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: some people are running 2.6, but there are issues

[18:26] Penny Lane: Justin: the key observation is that Snowstorm is in Hg. That means that control is no longer with LL, they're

merely the initial focus --- the wonders of distributed SCM. That focus will become fuzzy and go to whichever repos have the best changesets,

and LL can't stop it. And when FOSS devs are free to hack on Snowstorm code at the same time as work on Opensim, non-SL changesets will

inevitably appear, and all the TPVs will grab them. Only LL will be left behind and not work well with Opensim, but that's their choice.

[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: hi blue

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: but, past that sux

[18:26] OtakuMegane Desu: My two regions on danger grid are running with 2.8.1. Not bad by itself but dunno of any benefits I've seen

either.

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: Hi

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: we cant run 2.6 here bluewall

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: the sim deadlocks every hour almost

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: on all the plazas

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: hmmm

[18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: yeah, it could get interesting

[18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm running 2.6 on some things without problems

[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: i removed the last 2.6.7 since i lost almost a spot because shutdown worked 50%, it told the gridserver i

go down. but keeping running

[18:27] Justin Clark-Casey: my main dev machine will become to 2.6 when ubuntu 10.10 is released

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: some of those problems have gone away in 2.8.1 but many more problems are now introduced

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: to the point its also not useable with opensim

[18:27] Dahlia Trimble: I still have crash problems with 2.4.2.1 and I dont want to upgrade

[18:27] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I can't run it

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: i have a sim on Danger grid running it

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: pretty well

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: as long as i dont put it next to any other regions

[18:28] Richardus Raymaker: give 1 take 5 :O

[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.8.1 is a dev release though, right?

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: it has to remain isolated

[18:28] Dahlia Trimble: many of my regions run on windows anyway, they're far more reliable

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: right Justin

[18:28] Jaroslav Leitner is Online

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: its the Master GIT version of mono

[18:28] BlueWall Slade: 2.8.1 gives messages about physics / meshing then blows up when loading regions

[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: niiiiice

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya Meshmerizer explodes alot

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: especially when loading oars

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: its impossible to load an oar

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: meshmerizer freaks

[18:29] BlueWall Slade: no prims on OS master is ok

[18:29] Richardus Raymaker: still curious how a webserver can run mono without a good garbage collector. so reboot the webserver every

week ?

[18:29] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) accdd9d: 2010-09-02 00:59:00 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[18:29] OtakuMegane Desu: I dunno. My server just...runs lol

[18:29] Richardus Raymaker: so strange the not fix it

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus there are no Mono based web servers

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:29] Dahlia Trimble: interesting, there used to be a floating point glitch in older mono versions on 64 bit which messed up meshing

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: nothing anyone uses anyway

[18:29] BlueWall Slade: OS servers a lot of pages/ second, lol

[18:30] Dahlia Trimble: maybe a regression?

[18:30] Richardus Raymaker: apache can have asp suport sofar i kow

[18:30] Richardus Raymaker: know

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: its still Apache

[18:30] BlueWall Slade: there is a webserver called Cherokee

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: Apache is not written in mono

[18:30] BlueWall Slade: it is mono

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya i did see that

[18:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: but its not widely used im sure

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: when compared to say Apache and IIS

[18:30] BlueWall Slade: is supposed to fly, but I havent' checked it

[18:30] OtakuMegane Desu: If Apache was written in mono...wow. I can only imagine.

[18:30] BlueWall Slade: lol, maybe we can use it for a frontend, lol

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: and it does have a basic garbage collector

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: a web server wont use a lot of ram

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: it wont have any need to GC often

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim is very memory hungry app

[18:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Nah. Unless you have massive traffic web duty is incredibly light-weight by current standards

[18:31] BlueWall Slade: the pages are mostly static

[18:31] BlueWall Slade: OS is mostly dynamic

[18:31] Penny Lane: Doesn't Mono provide you with the tools to tell you what's breaking? And if the problem is just GC, doesn't it

provide you with the tools to see what garbage is not being freed, so you can tell what to change to help the GC have a better chance?

[18:32] Richardus Raymaker: does someone tell us how to use them..

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: their are tools, but good luck getting them to work with an intensive app like OpenSimulator

[18:32] Dahlia Trimble: perhaps but I dont know if anyone knows how to use them

[18:32] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: last time I tried my machine + profiling tools couldn't cope with opensim. But things may have

changed. I think part of it is manpower to go and look as well

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: the Mono profiler is so harsh

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: you cant even log into opensim

[18:32] Penny Lane: JCC: ouch :-(

[18:32] BlueWall Slade: I am hoping to try the soft debugger with it soon

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its at like 100% cpu as soon as the sim is running

[18:33] Dahlia Trimble: the intel people do a lot of profiling but they probably have the best tools available

[18:33] Andrew Hellershanks: When I've tried using memory leak analysis rpograms, they slowed the application down substantially.

[18:33] Nebadon Izumi: Intel has dropped linux

[18:33] Nebadon Izumi: they use Windows now

[18:34] Penny Lane: I know that Babbage used to beat on Miguel to fix stuff. Doesn't he listen to Opensim peeps? If his stuff is

breaking, give him a hard time.

[18:34] Nebadon Izumi: pretty much all their servers and dev machines are windows based now

[18:34] Nebadon Izumi: they dont use mono

[18:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the intel people are still concentrating on increasing raw avatar numbers rather than combatting

memory leakgage

[18:34] Richardus Raymaker: bad..

[18:34] Dahlia Trimble: linux seems to be a good choice for light duty regions

[18:34] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: heh

[18:34] Nebadon Izumi: Intels conclusion : mono blows, why bother

[18:34] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:34] Frank Northmead is Online

[18:34] Justin Clark-Casey: Intel still use mono, afaik

[18:34] Nebadon Izumi: not according to Dan and Mic

[18:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Well Intel can throw all the hardware and money for Windows costs at the project and not even dent their

budgets so yeah, makes sense for them lol

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: they are using Windows

[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: on sciencesim?

[18:35] Andrew Hellershanks: What's the point of having tons of people able to log in to a region if it will leak so badly that it will

lead to crashes before long making it not too usable

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats what i heard

[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe for some regions, I know not all

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: they might use it for some stuff

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: but ya

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: for simulators

[18:35] Richardus Raymaker: but pay 25,- more for some operatings system thats difficult to handle and give never a safe feeling. hmm.

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: i think its windows

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: atleast for their dev stuff

[18:35] Penny Lane: Well if Mono will always blow, then Opensim is dead, because a Window-only world is not of general interest. So

beating up on Miguel is not optional.

[18:35] BlueWall Slade: they are using xbuild

[18:35] BlueWall Slade: that is mono

[18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: We should rewrite everything in java ;)

[18:36] BlueWall Slade: so, they are using it somewhere

[18:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Re-write OS so it doesn't need mono? ;-)

[18:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Andrew: It's like people trying to find how many prims can be put in a region. Even the most prolific builds

are nowhere near the records but it can be helpful to know where the limits are

[18:36] Richardus Raymaker: go for it andrew

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya well mono is still quite incomplete

[18:36] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I suppose thats true

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: it will always be behind .net

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: no matter how hard they try

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: they dont get million dollar budgets to compete with microsoft

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: thats for sure

[18:36] BlueWall Slade: it does hjave some tools that aren't in .net too

[18:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Heh

[18:36] Dahlia Trimble: doesnt matter if it's behind as long as it does what you need

[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: not necessarily. It just needs to get good enough in the core areas

[18:37] BlueWall Slade: so, if you're not worried about being cross platform, then it could be pretty good

[18:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:37] Nebadon Izumi: it works, its just not nearly as optimized

[18:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Windows isn't an option for everyone, though is the thing of course.

[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: well you know, I'm never going to abandon linux for windows on dev machines. I'd sooner rewrite opensim

first

[18:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:37] Penny Lane: Rewriting everything is not a serious proposition. But it's quite likely that it's just one or two components of

Opensim that are giving Mono heartache, and just rewriting those in unmanaged code could do the trick.

[18:37] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[18:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya most of my machines are linux too

[18:37] Nebadon Izumi: but ive considered going back to windows

[18:38] BlueWall Slade: I use it in everything

[18:38] Jor3l Boa: Will OS run better in windowns then.. never tried

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: to minimize frustrations

[18:38] BlueWall Slade: and, it's not so bad

[18:38] Dahlia Trimble: personally I think it's the linden client stack that's most of the GC problems

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: the biggest thing keeping me back from going back to windows

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: is Lack of x64 support

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: because of ODE

[18:38] Richardus Raymaker: lol nebadon. with windows you move the frustration from mono to new frustration. windows.

[18:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Intel has gobs of money to throw into the costs and licensing for Windows systems as well as people who can

admin and run said servers. Not many individuals have the resources

[18:39] OtakuMegane Desu: And some like me simply would rather not deal with Windows period

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: i have prety much zero frustration with windows

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: quite the opposite

[18:39] Dahlia Trimble: they can do most with a dev license anyway and avoid the replication costs

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: Windows is like taking a nap

[18:39] Penny Lane: A lot of people are pointing at the GC as the source of trouble. Well if the unfreed components could be

pinpointed, you'd know what to rewrite in unmanaged code to avoid the GC troubles.

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: Linux drives me to the edge of insanity

[18:39] Richardus Raymaker: if microsoft would start to implement some basic stuff. thats still misisng.

[18:39] BlueWall Slade: Linux is different

[18:39] BlueWall Slade: you have to understand it

[18:39] OtakuMegane Desu: It can depend which version you're running too lol

[18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I honestly don't think the gc is the real issue. It's much more likely opensim is holding on to things in

my opinion

[18:39] BlueWall Slade: it has great tools, buuilt in

[18:39] Penny Lane: JCC: ouch!

[18:40] Ruben Haan: hi

[18:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya well the odd part is Justin in windows alot of these problems go away

[18:40] Dahlia Trimble: thats possible too jcc

[18:40] Justin Clark-Casey: and anyway, is memory usage really that bad with the app domain switch? Isn't the bigger issue with other

kinds of instability in mono?

[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: windows or linux bluewall

[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: hi ruben

[18:40] Nebadon Izumi: .net is much better at handling the ineffecient parts of opensim

[18:40] Nebadon Izumi: memory doesnt bloat up to inifinity

[18:40] Penny Lane: JCC: but if that were so, how would you explain that it's OK on .NET?

[18:40] BlueWall Slade: Linux Rira

[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: yes

[18:40] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, good poitn

[18:40] Justin Clark-Casey: um

[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: so the devs need to develop under mono to find the nasty bugs :P

[18:40] Roger Kirkman: What Microsoft OS are you using to run OpenSim?

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: so that makes it alot more difficult to figure out for sure

[18:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I think trying to workaround that in opensim would be vastly complicated though. Much better to beat on

Miguel, as you say :)

[18:41] OtakuMegane Desu: True. But switching to Windows just to avoid the inefficient issues is dumb long-run. Those things need to be

fixed.

[18:41] BlueWall Slade: Mono is like OpenSim, under heavy development

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:41] Justin Clark-Casey: switching to windows makes sense for production. But I doubt this kind of thing would make developers

switch

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: the biggest problem right now with linux

[18:41] Penny Lane: I suggest using the phrase "Mono is crap" a lot when talking to Miguel. ;-)

[18:41] Jor3l Boa: at least I have a free windows server license :D

[18:41] Richardus Raymaker: my opinion. you get more trouble if you switch to windows the use linux with mono.

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: is each new version that comes out

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim runs worse

[18:41] BlueWall Slade: and, they will work with issues just like #opensim-dev will work with issues

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: not better

[18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: ha ha - I don't want my head bitten off :)

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: it just keeps getting more and more broken in terms of running opensim

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: and its really difficult if not impossible to file bugs with mono

[18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I honestly haven't experienced the kind of problems you're seeing with 2.6

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: they want working example of the problem

[18:42] Penny Lane: Justin --- the loss is entirely his, if Mono gets a reputation for being crap.

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: how many visitors does your sims get Justin?

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: how much Xenine scripting are you doing

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: are you just running opensim, or are you using it?

[18:43] BlueWall Slade: maybe a lot of the issue is XEngine?

[18:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebdon: Maybe 3 and pretty much 0 scripting. But opensim is being used at various points

[18:43] Justin Clark-Casey: it shows that a lot of this is dependent on the kind of load

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: most of the problems are introduced with scripting

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: and heavy user loads

[18:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Scripting and avatar traffic seem to be the breaking points these days. A lot of the rest is fine.

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: i can run a sim in any version of mono and have it run for a month

[18:43] BlueWall Slade: I load it pretty good, and it does ok for me

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as i dont do anything

[18:43] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I knwo that

[18:44] BlueWall Slade: I reboot them via cron each day

[18:44] Penny Lane: Neb: haha

[18:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just saying that it's not broken for everyone

[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: but wright runs in most cases pretty good

[18:44] BlueWall Slade: and have very little problems

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: here on OSgrid its a huge problem

[18:44] BlueWall Slade: and some of the devices running have 35+ scripts with over 700 lines in each

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: not just for our sims, but alot of people

[18:44] BlueWall Slade: and it runs pretty good

[18:44] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if they would contribute development time that would be very welcome

[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: to bad there no linux devs that rewrite it

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: most are users Justin

[18:45] BlueWall Slade: the only issue, really, if someone TP out of the sim while all those scripts are loading

[18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: so we are pretty stuck. All we can do is wiat

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: its easy for developers to make it run well

[18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: wait

[18:45] BlueWall Slade: and that is an XE issue

[18:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Most of my regions are low-traffic, low-use but my sandbox gets some visitors and use. Have to reboot it

every 1-3 days, depending how badly poor noobs break something lol

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: for people just using it though, its easy to make it run pretty terrible

[18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: the whole project is alpha, after all

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: but if you go into SL say

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: and grab a good builder

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: even a mediocre builder

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: they will do things we dont think of

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: and they can crush a sim within minutes

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: you really have to walk on egg shells and really get to know opensim to make it run well

[18:46] BlueWall Slade: like Second Inventoy ?

[18:46] OtakuMegane Desu: I've done that a few times. :P

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: not saying it should run likeSL or be SL

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: but thats the user base we are getting

[18:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I missed a bit. Too bad there aren't any linux devs to rewrite what, Richardus?

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: these people come in and just destroy sims

[18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: that suits the maturity of the code

[18:46] Richardus Raymaker: opensim, so its optimized for linux

[18:46] Justin Clark-Casey: i.e. not very

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: what im getting at though, is the more you use the sim, the worse it runs

[18:47] Ruben Haan: most builders on sl dont care about the server. becouse they dont see it as server

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: light usage it runs fine

[18:47] Ruben Haan: thats why they build differently

[18:47] Richardus Raymaker: i wish the stability from net, the the userfriendly operatiing system and setup from linux

[18:47] Penny Lane: Following SL has no future, they're only now starting to think about resource exhaustion controls, and they're

doing it wrongly too. Go your own way.

[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. And those are generally the much tougher problems to solve

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: logging in rezzing just a few prims probably impossible to make it crash

[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we should have some resource controls, like prim limits and avatar limits

[18:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Prims and physics are in pretty good shape right now

[18:47] Jor3l Boa: ball physics slow down opensim too, remembers me SL havok 1 days

[18:47] OtakuMegane Desu: It's the otyher parts

[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean SL is the same way, they don't allow you to spray thousands of prims on a sim because they would

break too

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya sorta

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: their limits are pretty weak too though

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:48] BlueWall Slade: lol, I can't even move in SL most of the time

[18:48] BlueWall Slade: it

[18:48] BlueWall Slade: it's not fun

[18:48] OtakuMegane Desu: SL has its own mass of problems

[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: the other point is that no dev is going on now really on 0.6.9-post-fixes

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not saying we should be SL or try to emulate what SL is doing

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: im just saying we get alot of users from SL

[18:48] Penny Lane: Not limits like LL does, Justin, that's a bad engineering model, it makes things collapse and break suddenly. Use

proper engineering controls, which means negative feedback throughout the whole range, not suddenly at the limit.

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I know there are big issues moving to 0.7, but that's where the dev is happening now

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: who come in and use it like its SL

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: and that usually ends badly

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya the sooner we can get on 0.7 the better for sure

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: There are many sophisticated things one could do - but you need to get the basics working better

first :)

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: i think we'll see some improvements

[18:49] Frank Northmead is Online

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to get these modules fixed so we can make the move

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[18:49] Penny Lane: JCC: bah you're no fun :P

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: lol

[18:50] Richardus Raymaker: for me its not running realy bad. runs pretty nice.maby im used to a crash sometimes

[18:50] OtakuMegane Desu: One of the "issues" is simply opensim is getting more than just geeks and devs playing with it. Normal users

clueless about code or debugging are coming around more and more often. And explaining alpha software and other things can be difficult.

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: http://jira.openmv.org/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&pid=10030&status=1

[18:50] BlueWall Slade: maybe after 0.7x is more stable we can do a sanity check to see where the issues are coming from.

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: here are some of the issues holding OSgrid up

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: from moving to 0.7

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: there are actually alot of issues not even there yet

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: like groups

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: not all of these problems will keep us from moving forward

[18:51] Justin Clark-Casey: osgrid has an issue tracker on the omf site?

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: but this is all the stuff we need to do, to get back to where we are now

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: after we do switch

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:51] Richardus Raymaker: breaking groups = osgrid panic. so yes

[18:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I know it's a long haul

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: were like the only ones using OMF site

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:51] Justin Clark-Casey: ha

[18:51] Jor3l Boa: bundle groups, profiles, offline messages ad search :D

[18:51] Andrew Hellershanks: What about that issue of not being able to add new regions? Or is that in 069 only?

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: not sure i know that issue Andrew

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: who is having problems adding new regions?

[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: I see coyled is the only one dealing with issues :)

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya for some of that stuff

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: ive been working on things too, we just have such limited time

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: and so little help

[18:52] Andrew Hellershanks: In 069 there is a known issue in mantis that adding a new region to an instance prevents the instance from

starting (or something like that). Id on't remember the mantis #

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: its taking way to long

[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, the same is true here, unfortunately

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: right now its basiclly me and coyled

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: doing everything

[18:53] Frank Northmead is Offline

[18:53] Penny Lane: Does any of the Opensim scripting engine manage fine-grain microthreading of scripts like LL does yet? (I remember

Miguel writing that that was coming, a while back.) Or is that still in the future?

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: no other volunteers around?

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: and coyled has like couple hours a week at most

[18:53] Richardus Raymaker: ouch, thats not much. thats bad for both of you

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I don't believe so

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: not really Justin, no one seems to have time

[18:53] BlueWall Slade: none of the open ones, Penny

[18:53] Penny Lane: kk

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: I have lots of time, but I also need to keep the main grid working

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: and thats been proving difficult lately

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: we keep getting these disasters happening

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: disasters?

[18:53] OtakuMegane Desu: :/

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: which takes me off danger grid for a week

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya Inventory attacks

[18:54] Dahlia Trimble: Melanie is the scripting engine guru and she designed it around her needs for gamina

[18:54] Richardus Raymaker: again ?

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: Invnetories getting erased on mass

[18:54] Frank Northmead is Online

[18:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm helping with some of the addon type modules where I don't have to deal too much with core code.

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: no not again

[18:54] Dahlia Trimble: *gaming

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: but im still dealing with fixing peoples inventories every day

[18:54] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yeah, that's good stuff

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: we have had 3 distinct incidents in the last month

[18:54] BlueWall Slade: that appdomain switch makes a huge difference

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: of inventories being destroyed on mass

[18:54] Richardus Raymaker: only big scream i hear is when can i empty my trash.

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: its taken 1/2 of the month away from me working on danger grid

[18:54] OtakuMegane Desu: LOL

[18:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: accident or deliberate?

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: dealing with fixing that

[18:54] Andrew Hellershanks: The Scripting engine would be another thing I'd be interested in. I like working with parsers and

compilers. Its just all a matter of having the time.

[18:54] Richardus Raymaker: hope the filling trash dont give new problems

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: Deliberate

[18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: tell me about it :)

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: all are fixed now

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: but it easily chewed up 1/2 this month

[18:55] Penny Lane: Ah, "gaming", haha

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: for me dealing with that

[18:55] OtakuMegane Desu: If this was last year the grid would probably be broken with the size of trash some are getting by now

[18:55] OtakuMegane Desu: Back when large inventories was very bad

[18:55] Andrew Hellershanks: too many things to so. So little time, and the cloning machinery is broken so I'm just one person.

[18:55] BlueWall Slade: the parsers and compilers are there. The part that runs and maintains the objects is where the rubber hits the

road

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we just dont have enough people to get things done in timely fashions

[18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: you should get the people connecting to your services to contribute more ;)

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: were trying though

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been involved with another OS project for about 10 years or more. I know about not having enough

people do get things done as quickly as one would like.

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya we try, but no one really seems to want to step up

[18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, this is kind of the usual situation in the open-source world

[18:56] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[18:56] Penny Lane: Well if manpower is a problem, I'd normally say "Use open source!". :P

[18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I think.

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya well our popularity is our downfall

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: we have incomplete software that literally everyone wants to use

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:57] Richardus Raymaker: did LL something good this time ?

[18:57] Justin Clark-Casey: we're not *that* popular though, in comparison with minecraft or even dwarf fortress ;)

[18:57] OtakuMegane Desu: If you need help testing stuff on danger grid I'm available sometimes. Though it can be a bit erratic

availability

[18:57] Dahlia Trimble: we could fix that by breaking SL compatability ;)

[18:57] Roger Kirkman: I have a SUSE Mono 2.6.7 and Centos running MySQL. I use SUSE due to the close relationship with Novell. I have

OpenSim 7.0.1 running in grid mode (Port 8002 stuff). I want to know what to expect if I connect to OSGrid??

[18:57] Justin Clark-Casey: oh man

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: its like everyone wanting to ride bicycles that have no rubber on the tires

[18:57] Penny Lane: If the contrib policy change happens, the manpower problem might resolve itself. We can at least hope.

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it Penny

[18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: yes

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: it might help a bit

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: but the viewer devs are busier than we are

[18:58] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, maybe a bit

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: they arent going to drop what they are doing to work on opensim

[18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: we'll see. A good few of these problems are deep issues, though - like memory leakage and racce conditions

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: infact they will get more busy working on collaberating new stuff in

[18:58] OtakuMegane Desu: There's also the simple matter of different codebases and languages involved

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: it could go either way honestly

[18:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes I feel it would help me but I'm getting a bit better at digging in to libomv stuff to figure out

some viewer/OS comm stuff

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: im not going to assume though that because we change policy every viewer dev is going to look at or even

understand opensim

[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: we should end on an upbeat note :)

[18:59] Richardus Raymaker: how difficult and bad is it to break SL compatibility. 1 problem viewer(s)

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: at least the sim didn't crash!

[19:00] Penny Lane: Well I expect it to work like it always works: FOSS dev has an itch, FOSS dev scratches it. And when a viewer dev

has an Opensim itch, that means that Opensim gets more manpower.

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: remember when that would always happen?

[19:00] OtakuMegane Desu: Biiig lag thar

[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, things will always get better... eventually :-)

[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya, Crashes are way down for sure

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: lol

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: the sky is always darkest before the dawn, etc, etc.

[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I'm not having to restart regions very often these days.

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehehe

[19:01] Dahlia Trimble: not sure about others but I usually contribute to open source when it's something i find interesting. If it's a

problem I dont care about then I probably wont work on it

[19:01] Richardus Raymaker: send a bus with noobs to andrew sim :)

[19:01] BlueWall Slade: the thing with the contrib policy,. The recent Oracle, Google lawsuit shows some of the reasoning behind that

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: we have to restart most of the OSgrid plazas atleast 2 times a day

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes more

[19:01] Dahlia Trimble: would be different if I were paid

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa Plaza probably restars more like 4-5 times a day

[19:01] Andrew Hellershanks: it would be different for a lot of people if they got paid.

[19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: not sure about that

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: watch this video

[19:02] Andrew Hellershanks sighs... brb... cat is making a fuss

[19:02] Nebadon Izumi: there have been many studies that show

[19:02] Nebadon Izumi: when you pay programmers

[19:02] Justin Clark-Casey: they get fat and lazy?

[19:02] Nebadon Izumi: producitivy declines rapidly the more you pay them

[19:02] BlueWall Slade: like M$ ?>

[19:02] Justin Clark-Casey: so ideally you should actually take moeny from them to code?

[19:02] Richardus Raymaker: so CEO's get to many money ?

[19:03] Ruben Haan: so; better pay the nonprogrammers

[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: watch this video

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: bah :)

[19:03] Dahlia Trimble: I doubt its linear, probably more bell shaped

[19:03] BlueWall Slade: using git should simplify the development process

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I'm going to go and drown my sorrows ( by having lunch). See you around, everyone

[19:03] Penny Lane: FOSS isn't driven by money, but by interest.

[19:03] Richardus Raymaker: pay them for every usefull line the made

[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: it shows that Volunteer workers productivty is much higher than those being paid

[19:03] BlueWall Slade: allow more people to contribute

[19:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin

[19:03] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin.

[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: later Justin

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves

[19:03] BlueWall Slade: by jcc

[19:03] Penny Lane: Cya Justin :-)

[19:03] Dahlia Trimble poofs too, bye all :)

[19:03] Jor3l Boa: bye justin

[19:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, not sure about git helping. I lose a lot of time now and then fighting with git

[19:04] Penny Lane: Cya Dahlia :-)

[19:04] Jor3l Boa: bye all