Chat log from the meeting on 2014-12-16

[11:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I wonder about thoes things and HG [11:00]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: on a 50-ping test he had 0 drops but his *average* time was just over 1000ms [11:01] Connected [11:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: becuase, technically, you are still on your grid. [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and max was up around 2000ms [11:01] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Yikes. [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya bad latency is never good [11:01] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: What's he on, satellite? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: anything over like 300 you will have a bad experience [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's what happens when you bounce off a satellite [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and he understands that [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hello [11:01] Mal.Burns @grid.avacon.org:8002 is Online [11:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Justin [11:01] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Still shouldn't ill a sim for everyone, though. [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but what he didn't understand was that *his* latency wouild cause the entire region to come screeching to a halt until it was restarted [11:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi blue [11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and IMO it shouldn't [11:02]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Yep, it should deal with each one individually [11:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi RiRa [11:02] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: we had a sim fetched down by a hg user the other day, bad networking caused it [11:02]  Jak Daniels: Hi all [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justin i was speaking with Mic earlier about Adaptive Throttles [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: he wants to do more load tests [11:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha, avatar that got stuck in the door entrance ? [11:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Fetched Down - LOL [11:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that is a new one :) [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: he will probably contact you at some point if he already hasnt [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, I think we are going to run out of time though, as you are away [11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: latency is going to happen -- and bad connections -- but the sim shouldn't suddenly choke on it...only the "faulty" user should experience any serious issues [11:03]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: before we found the problem, the region had locked up all networking and was still trying to process xinventory requests to the users home grid so all networking was timing out [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: you mean this week? [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right, that's what we were seeing Alicia [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: and there are already enough problems holding up any next release [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think HG need more love soon. its getting important [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea this week is tough for me for sure [11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it wasn't even an HG user....this was a local user with severe latency [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ok well some time in the near future probably after the holidays is what I was thinking [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and standing in a region hosted on the same server as the grid [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: for me it has to be off hours anyway [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i mean for Mic [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: he cant connect during his work hours [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: but really there is no reason to not do more load tests on this grid, its certainly available [11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so hopefully someone can figure out a way for the sim to throttle (or completely ignore) those on a per-user basis so he can't kill us [11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure I have the time. I'm having enough trouble finding motivation to do things already [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: That was a huge benefit os OSG back in the day, a nice testbed [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya it will be back again soon [11:06] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: the sim shouldnt be still trying to pull the users inventory an hour after they were dropped for no packets being received [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: we can get a bit more crazy here without worrying about disrupting others [11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think it will queue up thousands and thousands of requests if he's there long enough and it takes hours to chew through them [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: alicia: outstanding requests should be cancelled if a user goes away. there is currently no mechanism to do this [11:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: yea and when each one has to time out its gonna kill the sim [11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: there's no per user query ? [11:08] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: ah ok justin, well i will add our log from this event to the mantis at some point [11:09] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: wow. I made it to the meeting! :) [11:10] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi andrew [11:10]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Main computer is down (bad motherboard?) and the HD in my laptop died several days ago. [11:10]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Ouch. :( [11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Your playing with dead bodies and zombies andrew ? [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'm using the drive from my old laptop that died with a hardware failure. [11:10] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Heh, Andrew - Me and you need to rob a liquer store and buy some new hardware :S [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: yea, pretty much Richard [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: us [11:12]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Blue, yea. If I have to replace my MB in the main computer I would need different CPU and RAM all costing about $500. Not an expense I want at Christmas time. [11:12] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: NickyP is working on a fix for Kokua var region map crash [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i will test it later today [11:12] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia and Robert [11:13] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: How's your frame rate in Kokua, Neb? It's been oddly slow for me. [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: and everyone else just arriving :) [11:13]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: In another day or so should be able to start looking at code changes/fixes for OpenSimulator once more. [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: Great Andrew [11:13]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Hi, Alicia [11:13]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: hey all... have my standalone up so I can HG.... too long since OSGrid :-( [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Good thing I have backup drives. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: any updates on Bulletsim or anything Robert? [11:15] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: I will have an axis locking feature out in the next few days (locks both linear and rotation) [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:16] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: it requires ExtendedPhysics enabled in the region [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: time for some physical trains :) [11:16]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: and I'm still noodling over a solution for physics region crossing.... but the holidays are coming up :) [11:16] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: what does ExtendedPhysics do? [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: it extends physics :P [11:16] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: :P [11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: still breaking my head on that train stuff. offcorse there some new progress. but then stuck on other problem :O [11:17] Mal.Burns @grid.avacon.org:8002 is Online [11:17] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: goes where no physics has gone before? [11:17] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: it is a region nodule that adds a bunch of "phys*" functions to LSL [11:17] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: like quantum entanglement? [11:18] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: the simple one is to get physics engine name (always on) but there are now the axis lock ones and not-yet-debugged ones to change the types of contsraints in a linkset [11:18] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Thanks to HG, I can already be in two places at once. ;) [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dont get used to that marcus. at the end its a bad idea [11:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Marcus - you can be in two regions on the same grid [11:19]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I can be in two grids at once as well. [11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bluewall, does that not give a hugh exp[losion ? [11:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: or more :) [11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: nope [11:19] Mal.Burns @grid.avacon.org:8002 is Online [11:20] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but if you are seen in one grid you are no longer in the other? [11:20] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: It works surprisingly well. If you get a friend request on on grid, it will repeat on the other, though. So there's minor gotchas. [11:20] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: someday, BulletSim could do ragdolls and such [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: nice [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: being logged in twice on the same grid is a terrible idea because it messes up some service stuff [11:20] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: How about full puppeteering? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: that would be fun Ninja was fun to play with [11:21] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: do ode ragdolls still work? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: was risky though, could easily crash your sim to a state that required database hacking to fix [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia probably [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: I have a ragdoll dumby I made [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTDCSEPVC8U [11:25] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Wouldn't that sort of thing work better on the viewer side? At least for anything more than the main position on the object? [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: some engines can map it to character skeletons. Would be kinda hard in opensim tho since animations need to pre-exist [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya it could definitely be better, but Ninja was pretty fun to mess with [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i also had some ball and chain setups [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it was super risky, i crashed my sim bad a few times [11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's called "marriage" Neb? [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: the one thing I miss was that planetary bodies simulator module [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: MICASIM [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: man i would love that back [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i wish someone would revive that it was amazing [11:28] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya that was fun [11:29] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: you could ride the planet prims [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM4fmL6dLdY [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i really miss playing with it [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: I still think its one of the coolest uses of opensimulator ever [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the code is on forge [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it just no longer runs on master git [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/micasim/ [11:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: probably just needs some minor changes [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tap, tap... [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes its still working [11:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the chat... :O [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:34] Nebadon Izumi whispers: everyone mesmeriized by micasim :P [11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: heh [11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nice choice of music in that planet prims video,. [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: would be cool to see it updated for bulletsim [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: would be a nice showcase of the technology [11:36] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559 is back... was called away [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: welcome back :) [11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: think nebadon found a new stress test for bullet :) [11:37] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: the BulletSim model is to take a linkset and change any of the links into physical constraints (springs, hinges, 6Dof, ...) [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: do you think it would be possible to do planetary body type simulations, gravational attraction etc.. [11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: springs :) [11:37]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: that way you can have vehicles with springed wheels or doors that really hinge [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: im not even sure bullet can or not [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE was kind of designed with that kind of use in mind [11:38]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: This needs to be updated to the current addon module [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure if you ever saw or tried micasim Robert [11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: do i hear cars that fall apart ? :) hehe [11:38] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: I'd build the planetary thing in a new region module that computed object location and gravity forces and did the update [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: thats probably what micasim is [11:39]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: there is no reason that people can add additional actions to objects [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its been many many years since it workd though [11:41] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: the module could hook the before-frame event and, if the object has certain dynamic attibutes, compute its next location in orbit [11:42] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Seems to me as a practical matter that the question isn't whether or not Bullet can do these sorts of things, but whether it can be communicated to a viewer in a smooth and useful way. The NInja ragdoll was cool, but also very messy. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt look like its a lot of code [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/micasim/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Ftrunk%2FNewtonPlugin%2F [11:43] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: viewer movement prediction is only linear... there is smoothness problems with curving paths [11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I need to log out early today. My cat is calling for me and I have an errand I was supposed to be doing this afternoon. [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: I can't say I undersatnd much of it though [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: kk Andrew [11:44] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: I think that was built by Mic... indeed it hasn't been updated in a while [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It would take a bit of work to get it to load [11:44] Nicky Perian is Online [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: robert knop was the last commit [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: he was IBM? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: or Intel? [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: SL [11:44]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: not Intel [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: oh maybe he was Genkii [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: He was a Linden [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: was he/ [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ok hmm [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Prospero [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: thats interesting for sure [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ahh [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: MICA was big in SL [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: probably not so anymore [11:45] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: who knows what is 'big in SL' any more [11:45] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Breedables. :) [11:45] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: LOL [11:46]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: when i go to sl it seems to be full of women in leather looking for their "master" lol [11:46]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I haven't been there in almost two years, but it's a safe bet. Heh. [11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Robert, the prices are big in SL [11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Alicia, not seen any leather [11:47]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: you go to the wrong regions, Richardus :) [11:47] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Or the right ones, depending on one's point of view. ;) [11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or the right ones.... [11:47]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha, what does that say about Alicia?? [11:48]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: 0.0 [11:48]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: very illuminating :p [11:48]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: will this core group stick with OSGrid (when it comes back) or should these core meeting move to another grid? [11:48]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: lol [11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hehe. :O :) [11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Is there a reason we shouldn't go back to OSgrid when it returns? [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: We will probably return to OSgrid [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: once its back and functioning [11:50] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559 is still wondering when it is getting back (since the core team is not being too communicative) [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Easter, if lucky, I suspect [11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I don't think many in core have much to do with it anymore [11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wich year ? [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (notice I didn't specify 2015) [11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: According to the OSgrid forum latest update, a month from now may be the target. [11:52] Jak Daniels: osgrid doesn't completely use all of core for it's grid services, so there's less mass of people testing some things in robust? [11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Actually, that reminds me.. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: sorry had a call reading back [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: the only service osgrid doesn't use is the asset, for very good reasons [11:53] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: OSgrid had been using SRAS for assets. The forum post with the latest news from Allen states that it will now be using ROBUST for assets. If that correct? [11:53] Jak Daniels: i thought profile and search were different too? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: and anyway, the robust services are not meant to scale up to any size grid [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: things are moving Allen is setting up and exploring some possibilites on new asset services [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: we don't want to give any kind of ETAs because if we fall short it will only upset people more [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: If I was setting up a grid I would likely look at writing all services in php or similar [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: But theose services are used less than the region [11:54] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: PHP is not a core OpenSim thing to test on a test grid, however [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: The services are almost dead by comparison [11:54] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: I'd look at replacing the asset server with a scalable blob store (Haystack, ...) [11:55] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: ROBUST, Asset services, and such are core OpenSim - if OSG is a grid to test OpenSim with... then using core OpenSim should be a pretty firm requirement [11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there hasn't been any testing on a test grid in 4 months....why worry about it? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: any alternative requires someone who knows what they're doing to put significant work in [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: right now I think Percona is being explored [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: is that right Allen? [11:55] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: I know Hiro was going to ask Dan about it [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its a good option [11:55] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: or they had talked about Percona before [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: good tools, lots of optimizations over mysql [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: originally coyled wanted to use it too, but ultimately not enough time [11:56] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I thought percona was just a hot backup tool for MySQL. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: anyway, hopefully communications will improve a bit, we are still bringing Allen into the fold [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: as soon as we have something important to tell everyone we certainly will [11:57] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: i am not fully pushed under the bus, no [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: Percona is a full mysql replacement [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: with hotswap tools [11:57] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Huh, didn't realize that. [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yes its very tuned for enterprise [11:58] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: yes, Percona is a full drop in MySQL replacement with add-on hotbackup, tooling, and monitoring plugins [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: over stock mysql [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: even compared to MariaDB its way more optimized [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: most important thing is backup? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we will have a full backup server [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: a clone of the master asset server [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: atleast to begin with [12:00] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: how about the other services? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: other services will likely backup in a similar manner [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: with a mix of mysql replication and rsyncing things etc.. that is my guess nothing is quite final yet [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: still exploring options [12:01] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: "will likely" implies "not currently backed up" [12:01] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: there are better databases for storing large, binary blobs.... SQL solutions are best for indexed records of fields [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im talking about once things are back functioning Dahlia [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine nobody is going to put the work into writing an alternative asset storage backend to avoid sql [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: that will take you even further from 'core' opensim [12:02] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: OSgrid is kinda constrained by what DB servers OpenSim and ROBUST have support for. :/ [12:03] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: justin, simian or sras? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I am slightly removed from the process a bit I am not a whole lot more informed than most of you at the moment [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it is true sras was already different and not sql [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: im leaving things in the capabale hands of the admins, Allen, Dan and Hiro [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: im more there for moral support and guidance when i can right now [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: time is limited [12:04] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I think sras uses sql to resolve multiple uuids per asset [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: HASH reference [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: and uuids in the database [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: blobs on the disk [12:05] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: something faster than a sql database could probably work for that tho [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: sras did work quite well [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: until the raid failure [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: it has a 99.99% uptime [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: from my reading there is no concensus that storing blobs as files is any better than stroing them in a db [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: sras2 did anywa [12:06] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: a file system is a database anyway [12:06] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: one could add an asset->Azure bBob storage connector to core.... or any of the other blob services... probably one of the open source projects [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sras2 was far worse [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sorry sras1 was far worse [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: the Ruby on Rails version was absolute disaster [12:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It would probably be easier to restore the data if the weer in a table [12:06] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: but a file system probably has more memory available for caching [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we had a crontask to restart apache every 30 minutes [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: cause rails was so terrible [12:06] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The motivation may have been more of an administrative than speed concern. A file system has simpler tools for managing large amounts of binary data. [12:06] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: specialized blob databases are just constructed internally to handle large blocks of data.... specialization of databases [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: when everything is in a db it is easier to backup [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is definitely a curve there [12:07] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well large asset databases make some pretty huge backup files [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: rsync works great for up to maybe a few 100gb maybe 1TB [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: the chief benefit of sras was deduplication of assets [12:07] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: shouldn't build your own blob storage from scratch unless you do something simple like SRA [12:07] Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: and SRAS would require modifications to support an asset database backup scheme of some sort - or more expensive or complex backend storage [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: once you get beyond a TB rsync is not so viable anymore [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: from my perspective [12:08] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and what happens when the total assets requires multiple disks or servers? [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: easy [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: you use NGINX to cycle through servers for requests [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and only one server gets posts [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: pretty simple in nginx to do a proxy like that [12:08] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: some of the nosql databases are designed to work with ginormous key-value stores that require many servers [12:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: is that the way the inventory is setup ? [12:09] Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: all the cloud service providers have solutions for this.... we're just trying to build something for free :) [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem with this stuff is that people have to start tackling scalabilty problems at exponentially lower request numbers than you do when running a webserver [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well most web servers are far more optimized than opensim [12:10]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: justin, lower because the regions serve to viewers? [12:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. i see a pile of lsl errors [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: ya ignore that its my version checkker [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i need to enable OSSL [12:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ossl it looks [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i just put it out 20 minutes ago [12:11]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I believe the CDN that LL is implementing has the viewers retrieve assets from the CDN [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: I did update this region to master about 20 minutes before meeting [12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i just see the error :OP [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: I guess I'm really thinking in terms of asset storage. [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe not such a well thought-out statement [12:13] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I wonder how simple it is to keep one's own backup of an asset service that was provided by a CDN? [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to go. See you later, folks [12:13] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: bye jcc [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ok, see you Justin [12:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I should really get going too since I still have a few more things I need to finish this afternoon....is it safe to assume no meeting for the next 2 weeks (Dec 23 and Dec 30) considering people's likely holiday schedules? [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: tahnks for coming [12:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: See ya Justin [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya I guess we can have a meeting next week if anyone is interested [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I assume we will have meeting still as they don't fall on xmas holidays themselves [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: i sure everyone will be busy, i'll try to be around [12:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: okies [12:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: have a good week eveyone [12:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I'll be here [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: bbfn [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey waves