Chat log from the meeting on 2013-11-05

[11:00] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi [11:00]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi ArieAnna [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone :) [11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: last seat. must be bluewall ? [11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon [11:00]  ArieAnna.Winterborn @logicamp.dyndns.org:8002: everyone is invisible, or somewhere else. ol [11:00]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi Vivian [11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: oh no its vivian. hi vivian [11:01]  Vivian Klees: hello [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: upstairs ArieAnna [11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: well, neadon. my world is alread upside down before is terted. lol things go fats in development [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: vars can solve lots of headaces [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: just created 36 ini files. and still need todo around 20 ini simulator files. well. 90 degree starboard and changeing plans [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: btw, it seems bullet + oar crash 0.7.6 on my system [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: i have a 9 region simulator i want to convert to var [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: not all btw. [11:03] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: looks like HG visitors are going to outnumber here ;) [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE can have similiar issues loading large oars [11:03]  Vivian Klees: UCI? [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: best to put it on basic physics and disable xengine until oar loads [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: i made a design. and cant do it smaller then 6x6 :O i need water and enough land for all verhicles and flying [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon. how can you change physics withoyt shutting regions down ? its all automated [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: Vivian i would definitely like to convert Universal Campus to a var version as well [11:04]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i didn't knew that nebadon [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be awesome [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: anything that is already a mega is easy to convert [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus you cant you need to restart it [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: No nebadon. if you still need to start from scratch is easy [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya if your switching from say a 9 region simulator (Non-Mega) to Varregion [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: you are probably going to have to first convert it to a mega-region [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: then save an oar as mega-region [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: lucky i keeped the design in megaregion requirements. tahts why i get 6x6 [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: then load that oar into a varregion [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi jusrtin [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi [11:05]  ArieAnna.Winterborn @logicamp.dyndns.org:8002: Hello [11:05] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi justin [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: well for now on 0.7.6 i switched back to ode nebadon. oh does opensim not have console command to check what physics is used ? saves some headaces with config errors [11:06] Vivian Klees: how to differentiate a var enabled region from non-var on map [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: you probably wont be able to via the map [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: vivian. om without maptile visible hard. with maptile easy to see [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest im not even sure if we will be able to have var regions on OSgrid [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: config show Startup would effectively show which physics engine was configured [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: because you only have 1 region name i guess [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I Think robert said Var regions will need to basically be isolated [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: can you put a normal region next to a var ? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: cant have neighbors [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: they may work on OSgrid but they will be pretty much isolated [11:07] Vivian Klees: yes that could create a problem for grids [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: ok. well its like mega.. then i kepe that in mind. think also not good to use var as welcome region [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but who knows how teleports will work and such [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: teleporting beyond 256m may not actually be possible [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: no idea [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine it means changes on the viewer side for that kind of thing [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: there will likely be a bunch of gotchas [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: lol. its long way swimming to mainland nebadon :) [11:08] Cuteulala Artis is Offline [11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: has robert said anything about how one would tell the grid manager not to allow overlapping regions? [11:08]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: well its just 1 region [11:08]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially what they think about how big a sim is [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: so im not really sure it would actually overlap [11:09]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: those viewers [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: you dont actually use multiple region coordinates I dont think [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: that would kind of defeat the purpose [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: well as soon i know how and where to download it i like to test it as standalone first. [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: so how would they show up on map? [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: how would that defeat the purpose? [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: probably as a 256x256 cell [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. [11:09] Robert Adams is Online [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: well here he comes [11:09] Nebadon Izumi whispers: lets ask him and not speculate :) [11:09]  Vivian Klees: ah the guy that can answer [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: by the pricking of my thumbs [11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: why ot generate the extra maptiles to show the otehr coordinates ? [11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: hi robert [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: do you really want to have to lock down 50 sets of coordiantes [11:10]  Robert Adams: hello all [11:10]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi robert [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: i sure dont that makes setting them up very difficult [11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: 50 ? you start to think big neb ! :) [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: locking down blocks of 256*256 would be easiest [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: but I guess that would stop other things [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: yes thats what i mean. but then you still can generate the maptiles to show the full size [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: so maybe you can explain to us a little bit how varregions work [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: with the coordinates and such [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: will it be grid mode compatible [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: i hpe it works in robust grid otehrwise i hav eproblem [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: will say a 768x768 varregion actually take up 9 256x256 cells on the map? [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: thats ho i would show it on map [11:13] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i like to fly :D [11:13] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: lost connection? [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: only bullet need to handle then 330K porims withoyt getting crazy [11:13] Robert Adams: teleports are going to take some work... EntityTransferModule is packed with references to the fixed region size [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i thought that might be the case [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:14] Robert Adams: Once I have terrain saving and restoring, that is my next area to attack [11:14] Robert Adams: seems there is a lot of code doing 'sanity checking' to the constant region size [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: how would variable regions show up on the grid map? [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds like legacy within code to me [11:15]  Robert Adams: most of the viewers loose it with over 130K prims or so [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya 32 bit viewers anyway [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i was able to get 1 million in 64 bit [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: but its absolutely terrible performance [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: 350k is really pushing it [11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm. but why would viewers tryu to load all prims. also the one sthat are out of range ? [11:16] Robert Adams: well, maps are after that... I am not going to do anything for adjacent regions -- no code for trying to match up non-legacy sized regions [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: however with the mesh capabilities we have now you should never need more than 100k prims honestly [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: even on really large builds [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: well its possible less then 350K but i counted 15K region and not water sims [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: ok - that would be hairy [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i mean nebadon [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine there would have to be an extensio nto the grid service to idenitfy whether a particular region was ordinary, variable, mega, etc. [11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: anyway wanted todo all mesh [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: will it be possible to put multiple vars next to each other if they are identical in size? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that would be something i would very much like to see [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mega could be improved by having the grid service know expicitly about them but that might become rather redundant now [11:17] Robert Adams: a region does register its size with the grid service... once can find out from there [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: It would be even more interesting to see different sizes of regions against each other. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the models I will be working on in the future could be 100's of regions that would really be awesome to reduce that down to like 10 or less [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: I think you have to start with the most basic case and get that working [11:18] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that sounds like a placing different sized cookies next to each other ;) [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's already difficult enough to do as it is [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: ihi andrew, i think it good to have first square full implemented vars [11:18]  Robert Adams: that's how Aurora got rid of a lot of cruft in EntityTransferModule... rather than trying to do distance math, just ask the grid service [11:18]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: even math guys get a good pile of problems with that [11:18]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i have problems to resize models to fit a megaregion 2x2 (more than one sim) [11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: Freaky, people always wants the biggest cookie [11:18]  Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:18]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I know [11:18]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, indeed. There are likely lots of places in the code that are only set for 256 square regions. [11:19] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially grid owners [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I have 2 models right now that I would love to convert to var [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Universal Campus and Sundbyberg [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: with var's whats best 0.7.6 robust or do you need 0.8dev robust ? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: a 2x2 and a 3x3, so i will be testing the hell out of it when you think its ready for that level of testing [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: What performance impact do you think var would have? [11:20] Robert Adams: I want to make the region loaders be able to load larger images -- just larger BMPs, etc [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: i have like i told nothing. but i need 6x6 land with 14 wtare sims inside that [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: One is going to be loading potentially more data and avatars onto a single set of UDP, scene loop, inventory handling threads, etc. [11:20]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds like boating area ;) [11:20]  Robert Adams: performance-wise, I expect zero impact... memory will be more (larger heightmap in the physics engine mostly) [11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: boating, flyiong, train [11:21]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i have enough memory :D [11:21]  Robert Adams: most of the work if changing references to Constants.RegionSize to RegionInfo.RegionSizeX :) [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I have to disagree - one is going to be loading much more stuff into a single 'scene' [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: same here. and i can expand still [11:21] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hopefully trains looking better than those I encountered on grids already ;) [11:22]  Robert Adams: well, ok... if you mean that performance.... yes, people will put more stuff in larger regions and that will make it slower [11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: well. my while idea's or a bit mixed exploded and scrambled. right now [11:22]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi dahlia [11:22]  Vivian Klees: hi Dahlia [11:22]  Robert Adams: but if you currently have a 3x3 set of regions, you are already loading all those objects into the viewer so you can see all the regions... should n't be much different in one region [11:22]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what does OpenSim internally use to put those terrain meshes together for e.g. bulletsim or ode? [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just wondering what scalability is like, because there are single threads which handle aspects of scene comms [11:22] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hash lists ? [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: it may not scale in the same manner as having multiple regions [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: i think if i ever have understand it right. with var's we need soemthing like intressted list if i understand it from SL right. load whats close by first. an dmaby not load anything thats foar away [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have any neighbors it should scale much beter [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: than having say 9 regions in 1 simulator [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats a lot more comms isnt it? [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there is that difference on the other hand [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: yeah nebadon. all the child conections can be killer [11:23] Robert Adams: freaky, OpenSim keeps terrains as heightmaps so merging is done by copying into larger arrays of heightmaps [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: also on the viewer end, you would be dealing with more data coming through a single scene connection [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: instead of multiple scene connectios [11:24] Robert Adams: the terrain meshes are build in the viewer [11:24] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what about those non-phantom objects? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya you would definitely need good distance throttles [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: which opensim lacks at the moment [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: so its not trying to render the entire thing even if you have it set for like 256m [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: i know [11:24] Vivian Klees: might be where the viewer hit problems with aurora with adjacent vars assuming the other region was 256m in size [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I believe we still chuck everything at the viewer when it enters the scene [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: I think so too [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know its giveing all [11:25] Robert Adams: Vivian, Aurora doesn't have adjacent varregions [11:25] Vivian Klees: an adjacent would try to load in scene [11:25] Vivian Klees: they tried [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: whats the advised ditacnce between neigborns robert ? 2 sims ? [11:25] Robert Adams: ya... then Rev gave up on that one :) [11:26] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually sounds like distance culling as done in other 3D applications when having larger scenery [11:26]  Vivian Klees: that goes deeep into the viewer [11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm sure vivian. its not a matter of opensim checks how far the prim is from your avatar. and if its to far dont send anything to viewer ? [11:27]  Robert Adams: Richardus: one sim shold be enough... but it is really whatever the grid service tells the viewer which regions are 'adjacent' [11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: A viewer would have to report draw distance setting to the OS code before OS would know just how much scene data it should chuck at the viewer. [11:28]  Robert Adams: will need to make sure the grid service logic is good for the larger regions [11:29]  Robert Adams: we modified the grid service once to tell the viewer about two or three regions in the distance... improves the view at the expense of a slow viewer :) [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya the Uppsala model that diva and I built you can see 36 regions when you log in [11:29]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: means much more data sent then [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its quite interesting [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire model is 72 regions [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: weird question, are var's good as HG welcome region ? [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i doubt that could be answered until tested Richardus [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: 36 ? wow [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:30]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: If you got one, I would try to go there ;) [11:30] Robert Adams: what Neb said :) [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: Like robert said earlier there are issues with teleporting beyond 256m [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: the same would go for logins [11:30]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i'm afraid that i'm using the 64bit version now :D [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: at this point [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: yok. [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm tried 64bit singulkarity. not sure if its usefull for me [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: yes 64 bit viewers will make the difference [11:31]  Andrew Hellershanks: A TP issue beyond 256m? Last time the TP issue was beyond 4096. :) [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: with how many prims you can load for sure [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: it works, but movement am not sure. need more testing [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: varregions will greatly benefit from 64 bit viewers [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: same could be said about mega-regions [11:32] Vivian Klees: only difference I've noticed is in fps with 64bit [11:32] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: more accessible memory for the viewer [11:32] Robert Adams: I need to find all the corners... like last evening I found that, even though I can move around the varregion, I couldn't rez a prim above 256m.... another check that needs to be found and stomped [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: correct, with 32 bit viewer you will be lucky to get to 150k prims [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: it will simply run out of memory [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: thats prims with no textures even [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: just cubes [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: that's very curious, I'm sure that's ordinarily possible [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: rezzing above 256m [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I've seen enough sky platforms in opensim in my time... [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: wiht the 64 bit viewer i was able to rez 850k primitive cubes [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and 1 million mesh cubes [11:33] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i've never tried [11:33] Robert Adams: sorry, I meant rezzing at a region location greater than <256,256>... not altitude [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: anyway nebadon. you say best to make a megaregion if you want to be ready for var ? because easy to transfer [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: correct [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: oh I see. Yes, there are coded limits somewhere [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: there will likely be no direct path from regular 3x3 simulator to a varregion [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: you will first need to convert it to mega [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: lol justin 'somewhere' thats the problem [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: save that oar, then push that oar into varregion [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: unless someone impliments oar loading offsets [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a nice feature that shouldn't be hard to implement. [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: does the wiki alhave a var page ? [11:35] Robert Adams: a console command the moves all the prims in a region to a different offset in a different region :) [11:35]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: and the problems with resizing models more then 256x256 should be gone ? [11:36]  Robert Adams: Richardus: I haven't created a wiki page yet [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: do you really want bigger models > [11:36]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: or is it viewer related ? [11:36]  Robert Adams: I have a bunch of implementation notes that I should get up [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: wiki page can maby avoid soem double questions etc. [11:37]  Vivian Klees: hi Pathfinder [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I can't find where the rez limits are [11:38]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: hiya Vivian [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi pathfinder [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: robert a var only need 1 ini and 1 regionname right ? and not like a mega 36 ? saves me still 36 opensim.ini files with mega. hhmm [11:38] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: hiya Justin [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: hi pathfindr [11:38] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi pathfinder [11:38] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi pathfinder ; nice place you got at your grid ;) [11:38]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Hi Richard and everyone :0 [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I know megaregions rez objects okay in other regions so I'm a little surprised there's a limit, but obviously there is [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I mean beyond 256 256 [11:39]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Freaky, oh thanks! I noticed you stopped by. Glad you enjoyed it. [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i dont think there is any problem rezzing beyond 256m [11:39]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed your last visitor list [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL they probably rely more on server side checks [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be foolish to trust the viewer to do those limits [11:40]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: should be server side since that knows the limits better [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: or at least the viewer should get those told [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, one should never trust the client [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, how do you ever get to building with all the server and testing stuff ? :O [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:41] Robert Adams: Richardus: yes, only one Region.ini with larger size specified [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: have lots of computers available [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:41] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I saw that list ;) [11:41]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and still some regions offline? [11:41]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i think its a better solution then 2x2 mega :) [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: yeah. but still 2 hands and 1 brain i guess. [11:41] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: the client is in the hands of the enemy... [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: didnt you hear? i have 4 brains [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:42] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: clients are always enemies since they are not under your control at all ;) [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: diva thinks im actually a collective of people [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:42]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D 2 4 work and 2 for wife? :D [11:42]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Freaky, precisely [11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: borg 2 :O [11:42]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: isn't that true for grid owners? [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: but honestly, if it wasnt for all the people at OSgrid testing would be way more difficult [11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:42]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: don't they have multiple identities? [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: osgrid is capable of absorbing a lot of time :) [11:42] Cuteulala Artis is Online [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:43] will barnside: ok [11:43]  Richardus Raymaker: really need to see if i can create a2x2 mega here.. (pretty empty) but thats pushing the dual core) [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: I read of somebody operating 116 regions on a 4 core today [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is.... scary [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: i have already 11 on that dual core [11:44]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: wow isn't it laggy? [11:44]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I am pushing a single core with less than 1G mem so why not give it a try ;) [11:44] Vivian Klees: 2gb of ram right? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya i have seen multiple people running 100+ region megas [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I can see people trying to operate a 16386x16386 megaregio non an amazon single core instance ;) [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: and not complaining too much [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: no 8GB here. with 4GB opensim crash. [11:44]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: wow congratulations :) [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: if they're crazy then i guess they don't mind crazy stuff happening [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: lol justin. well thats really flying space. [11:45] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: have to keep the stuff a bit low profile on the region [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: and lots of mainland [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya I enjoy finding the breaking points [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its fun to see how far you can make it go [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, maybe it's not so bad if most of it is emptyu [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and do things people say you cant do [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and 0.7.6 would perform a lot better with lots of regions [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: they don#t generate the same constant base cpu load anymore [11:45] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hosting a copy of seconlife on a singlecore :D [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: though there is still some [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: why is my todo list only get longer... [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: so how does variable regions interact with dsg? [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: is that then an alternative way of scaling load? [11:46] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I am planning to give it a try on a raspberry b series so [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've never seen opensim run well on a single core [11:46] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: speaking of load and performance, Justin, ty for those 2 recent blog posts you made about the technical side of OSCC13. Really helpful details in there for anyone running a grid. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: getting opensimulator running on ARM hardware will be difficult at best [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky: A viewer on a Pi? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and quite possible not at all [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: no the sim is something I wanna try [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: at least grid will get one [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: opensimulator in its current state is x86 only [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: I doubt the Pi even has enough memory. [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: great you find it useful. Yes, that's my intention with writing that stuff - to try and show people how to replicate stuff like the conference [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think its impossible to get it to run on ARM, but it wont be easy [11:47] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: has 512MB suffices at least for robust [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: Pi have 512MB [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: it wont have 512 free [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: not easy because getting there still requires a lot of expert knwoledge [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, the new ones do (such as mine). [11:48] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I know the kernel has to go somewhere [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: No, some of the ram is used for video. [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: but mono pi. i think its ot strong enough. it seems hd video already pushing it [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: from my expereince with linux running a machine with 512 ram will be lucky to have 300mb free [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: thats really stripped down [11:48] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: mono on a raspberry ?!? i never tried [11:48] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but my current opensim system including grid is not only doing opensim either so pretty loaded on 768MB RAM [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if you need mysql running forget it [11:48]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and it is running mysql [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: mono on ARM is easy [11:48] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: needs swap because of that for loading that machine [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its the other stuff like physics [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and database [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: that complicate it [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: xengine possibly [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: the need to make a quad core pi with more insertable memory [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think you can set aside less ram than 64MB for video so that leaves you 512-64 for programs including the operating system. [11:49] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: running a bunch of scripts [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya im sure you can atleast get opensim to start with 512 [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you wont be able to do much [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: PImple [11:50] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i would say cluster your mysql with 50 raspberry and it can be successfully but not with only one :) [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: spending that much money just buy a nice i7 server [11:50]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: you cannot go probably beyond some 1000 prims with the sims but let's see what it can do ; will pick those up tomorrow [11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: There have been clusters made using Pis [11:51]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I have an i7-4770K with 16G so if wanna toy around with something big I can do [11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: dual pi, 1 for opensim and 1 for the mysql part [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: ya dont get me wrong it would be a fun project [11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: I hear beagleboards are more powerful computers than PIs are [11:51]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: those B series are Dual Core 700MHz [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont think it could be anything you could use on any kind of production level [11:51] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: wanted to toy around with these anyways [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its more of the challenge of can you [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: You would have to turn the caching of MySQL data way down. [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: I use an atom for my regions, it's pretty slow but it works [11:52] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: could you run MoWeS instead of MySQL? Like with simonastick? [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, true. I know someone who wants to try running Unix V7 on an AVR micro controller. [11:52] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: simonapi...? [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia. when you sneaked in [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, almost half hour ago [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: only if it runs in ARM hardware Pathfinder [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: richardus, ive been here but afk :) [11:53]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Neb, ah duh, you're right. [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: there are all kinds of challenges in getting proper libraries for ARM [11:53]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000 wasn't thinking it through [11:53]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the big AVR are ARM based if I remember correctly [11:53]  Robert Adams: Probably run great on a Galileo :) [11:53] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I like challenges to go for [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: but IBM had it running on PowerPC [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, the 32-bit versions might be. Not the ATmega series. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: which is similar to ARM kind of [11:54]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I did not mean ATmega [11:54] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I meant the AVR32 series [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: arm is risc isnt it? [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, my friend did for V7 [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry to interrupt. But before we end, does anybody have any other opensim topics this week? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: well its Reduced instruction set, but not technically RISC no [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm hoping to do the update to using .net v4 soon, which will require all windows users to have the .net v4 package installed [11:55] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i need to send a solution for knowledgebase cause i can't find a email adress to send em [11:55]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I like actually how opensim behaves on mono 3.2.3 ;) [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ok I dont think that is such a big leap anymore Justin [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: no, shouldn't be a problem. [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: XP support officially ends in less than 6 months [11:55]  Richardus Raymaker: well . only problem i found with 0.7.6 is taht i cannot run bullet and save oar on soem regions the go in opensim.exe topped error on windows [11:55]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          2b069a3: 2013-11-02 00:39:12 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm still running xp! :) [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: most everything after XP either already has .net 4 or is only a couple clicks to get it [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well you better upgrade soon [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't relaly want to shell out more money to ms... [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: bah :) [11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure what that will mean for my XP machine. [11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: I still have xp on an old computer [11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: I still have ME on an old Pentium II [11:56]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: delete windows 8 :D [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty soon you wont even really be able ot easily install XP anymore [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe I'll have a go at going pure linux, though that is still painful [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: microsoft will kill all the authentication servers [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: for keys [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: its really going dark soon [11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: No, i just finaly got to 8.1 on this system. nothing wrong with 8 desktop. after you conigured it right. but stil soemtimes.. [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: can they do ythat, really? [11:56]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: they probably already started on XP [11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, always depends on what you do with a machine. I can run Linux almost exclusively. Very few things still require Windows. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yes XP is already several years beyond its support cycle [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, that would be problem.. i dont think the kill the servers. only update serves. the cant forbid you to activate xp [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but those few windows things can come back to bite [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: running XP is like running Ubuntu 6 [11:57] Robert Adams: I hope to get some testing of the 'varregion' branch on regular region setups... it should most mess regular setup and should be mergable into 'master'... but must test first [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: though tbh I do also have a windows 8 machine, just not on my main desktop [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah. [11:57] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially when it comes to 3D support of graphics cards [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: do regressio ntests currently pass on the var-regio nbranch? [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: For me, its mostly to run a 3D modelling program that is windows only or hot syncing a PDA which is quite old. [11:58] Dahlia Trimble needs to play with the varregion stuff [11:58] Richardus Raymaker: its on my list now. but betetr oderr my disk a bit [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: no you will still be able to install XP, but what good is that if you cant install the 675 updates [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:58] Robert Adams: justin: I haven't tested the tests... looking at them, they are all based on 256 regions so there aren't tests for the larger regions [11:58] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: pff, I don't visit dodgy sites with this machine :) [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: i still think you can get win98 updates to [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: the just dont make new updates [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: you can get the Service Packs [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I'm more interested in whether those existing 256m tests work [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway we should not be encouraging people to use unsupported software [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: its irresponsible [11:59]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hmm i think windows 98 goes crazy with 8 cores and 32mb ram :D [11:59]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: gb* [11:59]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually windows 98 has quite a few quirks on newer machines missing drivers and so on [12:00]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002 is Online [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: I think it will be good to move into .net [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: there are other issues [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: like you can no longer downloading Visual Studio 200 [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: 2008* [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yet its still our default [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, part of updating has to make vs2010 the build default [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: am on 2012 if im right [12:00] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i miss the bluescreens :) that was the only function that worked :) [12:01] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed they already removed that from he download page [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: 2010 is going to be retired soon even [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: you can't compile .net 4 in vs 2008 anyway [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: 2013 is out now [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: and compileing opensim with that [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: well 2012 is fine.. knowing icrosoft the maby screwed something in 2013 [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: I like 2010, I dont like 2013 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: I only installed 2013 for first time couple of days ago [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Update to make VS 2012 the default instead of 2008, just as support for 2012 is dropped. :) [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: it was able to compile opensim with prebuild2010.bat [12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: still have i think 2005 express on cd and 2008 and [12:02]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually when starting I compiled 0.7.5 on mono ;) (me being an ArchLinux user) [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: thats about as far as I went though, it looked pretty familiar [12:02] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i think i've started with 0.3.x [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. See you all around. [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: good change that a var works betetr on linux on my amd. [12:04] Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: take care Justin [12:04] fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: bye justin [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: bye justtin [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: kk Justin, talk soon :) [12:04]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: have a nice day justin [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to say I'm going to head out. [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, justin [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we are at the top of the hour, good meeting, thanks everyone [12:04]  Vivian Klees: have a good evening Justin [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :) [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: robert var is indepent from physics engine ? [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks waves [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline