Chat log from the meeting on 2017-08-22

[11:06] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I have a question [11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Go ahead, JayR [11:08] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: The OpenSim PowerBoat Association on the KazGrid is running os0.9.stable and both Bullet and ubODE physics power boats are working / how is this possible ? [11:09] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: why wouldnt they [11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are both engines loaded in the sim? [11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is possible due to all the recent work on both BulletSim and ubODE. [11:09] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: hey I am not complaining [11:09] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: its great to see both able to function [11:10] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: i just a bit stupidified [11:10] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i have bullet  and ubode  race cars  that  both  work on the  same  physics  engine [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what engine is loaded on the sim? [11:10] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Bullet [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely runs Bullet and ODE -- you can choose which one you want and switch any time [11:11] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: we were not able to do that with 0.9. RC2 [11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit has been making lots of changes to ubODE. [11:12] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what problem did  you see  on that RC? [11:12] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: on the RC2 we were not able to cross sim borders with ubODE [11:13] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: with Bullet we were [11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: on a  var region? [11:13] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: its all cleared up now [11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: They are both modules and should be interchangeable from the standpoint of the calling software. [11:13] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: standard 256x265 regions [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ideally, yes, but they are not completely script compatible [11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: sim crossings is one area of physics that was getting some attention [11:16] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: we are currently interested in having Power Boat Aficionados visiting out Grid and taking helping out with further development [11:16] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: thekaz.ddns.net:8002:ChibaSea1 [11:17] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: we could use some Full Perm boats and people that just have a love for the sport [11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: And I would like to get some video of a race [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: In case any of you don't yet know, this week saw a new milestone with the official release of the 0.9 version of Open Simulator. [11:18] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Selby / yes me too [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes was   good  to see [11:19] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes -- noted [11:19] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: any one that wants to participate in some power boat racing / everyone is welcome [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: it lends  credibility  to tyhe idea  that  Opensim is  still an active  project [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I got the macOS version of Bulletsim both upgraded and recompiled for both 32 and 64 bit mono. It is now on master [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The release notes for 0.9 are not yet complete. It will take a while to finish them. [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: it now  remains  to be seen  how  many grids  will adopt the upgrade [11:20] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: congrats to the devs for getting 0.9 release out. [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: On master we have libopenjpeg-dotnet-2-1.5.0-dotnet but I can only find the source for 1.2 [11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, true [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyone who knows where 1.5 is? [11:21] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Hi Andrew - I heard something about 0.9 release last Weds from Mal. I've been traveling so missed other news, but wow, very exciting. [11:22] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I posted an article per previous discussion here: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/08/2017-new-hg-shop-smart-in-opensim-check.html [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: any word on  Kitely's intent to upgrade  to .9? [11:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely Is still reluctant about 0.9 -- so far [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: or Metro's? [11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think Kitely has a lot of custom code they need to upgrade too [11:24] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: But resistance is lower [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I don't know anything about their plans. You will need to ask the grid owners. [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: was hoping Sheera  might respond  for Metro [11:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Gavin -- Kitely has to rework a lot of code before is can shift [11:25] Sheera Khan: I'm back at reading the backlog [11:26] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: 0.9.stable is working well for us on the KazGrid [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: have they  not  been  looking  at  it  already Selby? [11:26] Sheera Khan: yes Metro is preparing for the upgrade [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: any resistancer to it  Sheera?? [11:27] Sheera Khan: during the update the database has to be migrated... ours being at 4TB+ it will take a while... [11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: jeepers thats a hella db @Sheera [11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely has been looking at the 0.9, yes, Arielle. They also have a big project in progress and don't want to divert time to the transition. [11:28] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that sounds intriguing Selby [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think the will have some time to spend about the middle of Sept. [11:29] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: kk thx Sheera [11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Marketplace for Hi-FI? :-) [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Anyone planning to upgrade to 0.9 needs to pay attention to the migration path. They need to be on 0.8.2 before going to 0.9 [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if there exist mega regions they need to handle that too [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The release notes (as they are so far) can be found at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9.0.0_Release [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, Very true. The 0.9 version no longer supports mega regions. [11:31] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: TY for the link Andrew. [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yw, James [11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely no longer uses megaregions. [11:33] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Physics engine ODE (the original one) is maintained for compatibility purposes only. Please avoid creating new content for it. Use it only if your region has a lot of content you can't upgrade now. [11:34] Sheera Khan: In the last weeks we had some discussions about mesh and physics and so on... Freaky did some investigation and found a problem in the handling of the physics mesh. [11:34] Sheera Khan: More about that: https://plus.google.com/+FreakyTech/posts/fic4Lwaztmu [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes was  a  good  post Sheera [11:34] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: thx for posting the link [11:35] Sheera Khan: I hope it is helpful :-) [11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Not so much. It talks about the "Analyze" button. AFAIK, you aren't supposed to use that when uploading mesh. That page mentions what happens if you do, or do not, use it. It doesn't state that it should not be used. [11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It does talk about the convex hull. I don't know if the information is accurate. [11:39] Sheera Khan: but it seems to talk about why the button doesn't work and what it does to the mesh. Having found out about it maybe one could fix the problem... [11:39] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes [11:39] James atLLOUD: Elevate the fix in the viewer roadmaps too. [11:40] James atLLOUD: (fix? wrong wording maybe) [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, misterblue or Ubit would be the ones to answer whether the use of the button will be supported in a future release of the physics engine. [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is actually not so interesting to find out why it does not work, as it is programmed for the Havok engine Opensim don't use [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Ubit just logged in. :) [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: simply DON'T use it [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Just in time for more physics discussion. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: ;) [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: At this time my understanding is "don't use it". [11:40] Arielle Popstar: if he comes here [11:41] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: it would be good to put Freaky's information with viewer upload instructions as they compliment and explain each other. [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: too much information can be confusing [11:42] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: *giggles* [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the clear message is DON'T use the Analyze button [11:42] Ubit Umarov: that information is not correct [11:42] Arielle Popstar: seems to be  hinging  on this: [11:42] Arielle Popstar: The most optimal solution towards physics would be a correct physics convex hull list implementation in the viewers [11:42] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: confusing for the users: yes, absolutely ... [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is the only thing people on openSim needs to know [11:42] Arielle Popstar: the list thing [11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will carry Freaky's comments in my blog as invited article. [11:42] Ubit Umarov: that information is not correct [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, which part is not correct? [11:43] Ubit Umarov: only partial correct [11:43] Ubit Umarov: we say about analyse step2 problems on our site for months now [11:43] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will carry comments from Ubit if he gives them to me. [11:43] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and _that_ is why I wanted to place it here so it can be discussed by people knowing about those things ;-) [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that is what we were also talking about. Not using Analyze. [11:44] Ubit Umarov: analyse step 2 can work... [11:44] Arielle Popstar: Freaky doesnt  disagree  wityh that  but mentions  why it is  a problem [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is great Sheera, but I am not sure placing it on Selby's blog is particularly useful for the general user [11:44] Ubit Umarov: just it is a heavy thing.. can fail..  both on havoc mesh tools or hacd [11:45] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Not useful for general user -- Will have Keyword TECH: [11:45] Ubit Umarov: it just happens to fail a bit more on hacd ( the opensource replacement of havok tools  viewers use for us ) [11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: if the info is partially wrong it can be corrected, but the other part might be helpful [11:46] Ubit Umarov: then it is wrong on physics engines use of that [11:46] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: If it is wrong, we need it corrected -- [11:46] Ubit Umarov: ubODE does not do convex decompostiion.. it undo it [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Since the Analyze button should not be used when uploading mesh it would be good if viewers disabled the button when they detect they are connected to an Open Simulator based grid. [11:46] Ubit Umarov: BULLET is the one that needs to do it [11:47] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: But we can't ignore Freaky [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I agree Andrew [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will do on Kokua [11:47] Ubit Umarov: so.. well that post is wrong [11:48] Arielle Popstar: partially you said [11:48] Ubit Umarov: ( and has no relation at all with the use of visual part of meshes on physics also) [11:48] Ubit Umarov: well the partial correct things don't make it good [11:49] Ubit Umarov: just adds up to the confusion [11:49] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ah -- Gavin -- send me info on what you are doing to Kokua for that -- a reason why we need an OS viewer. [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is actually pretty easy [11:49] Ubit Umarov: and there is another issue about step 2 for ppl not good with meshes [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just adding some xml to it [11:49] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I know it is annoying as heck to discuss the mesh topic (again), but it is a big thing for our user base, so I try to get the best infos about it ... [11:49] Ubit Umarov: even when it works fine. it is a mesh simplification [11:50] Ubit Umarov: so even when it works, the result may not be what ppl wanted [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( it even has a option to close holes ) [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, Yes. Unfortunately Ubit missed the earlier discussions about the release of 0.9 [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ( and it may close them on same cases. even with that unset ) [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: best result is always to make an optimized physics model for the mesh [11:51] Ubit Umarov: the same applies for the visual LODs actually [11:51] Arielle Popstar: but  that  has  been  discussed  many times,  that will not  always be  possible  Gavin [11:51] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's why I'll post the log later ;-) [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Ubit [11:51] Ubit Umarov: viewer tries to make some... and may fail [11:51] Ubit Umarov: you see that all over [11:51] Ubit Umarov: odd shapes looking far away [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have the original upload files it is always possible to make a physics model [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it may take a bit of extra work, but it is always possible [11:52] Arielle Popstar: yes but  in  many cases  they will not be available [11:52] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: but sometimes we really don't have those files :-( [11:53] Ubit Umarov: and sometimes people do select a visual LOD for physics.. other than high [11:53] Arielle Popstar: unless the devs   code  some  way to download  them in a usable format? [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if not available, then it is transfer from one grid to another by means of oar or iar [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or direct transfer via HG [11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: not everyone is proficient in Blender... [11:53] Ubit Umarov: that can also result on bad physics [11:53] Arielle Popstar: but stuck  on  bullet  only. Could never  migrate to  Ubode [11:53] Ubit Umarov: bc viewers code to make LODs has diferent criteria than the oens needed to make physics [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wrong [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: many meshes work on both [11:54] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and sometimes the creator isn't available anymore [11:54] Arielle Popstar: ok glad  i am  Gavin [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: When I've been uploading I tell it to use the Highest level LOD for the other LOD's. [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have regions on both and generally the meshes transfers without problems [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in a few cases one would have to use an invisible prim if the original upload is not available [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is of course also work [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but doable [11:55] Ubit Umarov: in many cases the use of invible prims is the best option to start with.. [11:55] Arielle Popstar: depends on the complexity  of the build  i guess [11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeap [11:56] Arielle Popstar: like that one  from Cuteulala [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually you run into having to fix things such as phantom walls and floors [11:56] Arielle Popstar: the big  castle  one [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then prims can provide the physics [11:56] Ubit Umarov: most houses i've seen are just some dozen of boxes to make physics [11:57] Ubit Umarov: and i alrady explained how true spheres and boxes ( all untortured ) are special on physics [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course if you have very big meshes it gets more complicated [11:58] Ubit Umarov: those meshs "creators" should go back to sl to actually see the pain [11:58] Ubit Umarov: how much it costs them to upload a not so good mesh [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [11:59] Ubit Umarov: and how sometimes they do pay and have no land where it can be rezzed because of LI [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for bigger meshes getting the texturing and physics right is 80% of the job [12:00] Arielle Popstar: well land is cheap here ansd so are uploads. Yay opensim [12:00] Ubit Umarov: well on 0.9 meshs uploads can be charged [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Qestion to Ubit, do you know where the source for libopenjpeg-dotnet-2-1.5.0-dotnet-1 is? [12:00] Ubit Umarov: and there is a test mode free of charge [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Question* [12:01] Ubit Umarov: but that wasn't even used at AVN.. so may need some fixing [12:01] Ubit Umarov: hmm i don't gavin.Hird [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cause the one on unmanaged spits out a version 1.2 [12:02] Ubit Umarov: guess that is at libomv [12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [12:03] Ubit Umarov: ohh we do have a source at opensim-libs [12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes but 1.2 and not 1.5 [12:04] Ubit Umarov: well so you know where the 1.3 came from :) [12:04] Ubit Umarov: 1.2 [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unmanaged haha [12:05] Ubit Umarov: seems someone did update our bin and not the opensim-libs [12:05] Ubit Umarov: well don't know [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: commit e50b6b5334270436ece8c2c5bdfe792395d044bf Author: Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)  Date:  Thu Sep 20 01:26:35 2012 +0100    Update libopenjpeg libraries used by libopenmetaverse back up to 1.5, this time using lkalif's linux libraries built against a much earlier libc (2.7) [12:07] Ubit Umarov: seems it was me lol [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: That should give you an idea where to go looking for the source [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [12:08] Ubit Umarov: ok i see [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: You could also check the contents of an SRPM and extract the 1.5 source files. [12:08] Ubit Umarov: we use the one on libomv [12:08] Ubit Umarov: the 2.... is on libomv [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: linky? [12:09] Ubit Umarov: ( see gavin ? ) [12:10] Ubit Umarov: libopenjpeg-dotnet-2-1.5.0-dotnet-1--- cames from libomv [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: The opensim buildnotes for libopenjpeg that is in opensim-libs references svn://opensecondlife.org/libsl [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I got that [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but where is the source :-) [12:10] Ubit Umarov: libomv [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does libomv have a link? [12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: duh - it's in the source tree [12:12] Ubit Umarov: url = https://github.com/openmetaversefoundation/libopenmetaverse [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Thanks! [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll get the macOS version built also 64-bit [12:13] Ubit Umarov: so our opensim.libs is not in use now [12:13] Ubit Umarov: i mean the one at [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe make a commit or edit or readme update and say it is obsolete [12:14] Ubit Umarov: u guessed my mind :) [12:15] Ubit Umarov: well did i miss any important thing about 0.9 release ? [12:15] Ubit Umarov: ( and sorry i was late.. i was lost at rl then my local dns box was dead ) [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR commented earlier -> The OpenSim PowerBoat Association on the KazGrid is running os0.9.stable and both Bullet and ubODE physics power boats are working / how is this possible ? [12:17] Ubit Umarov: no idea [12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I wrote the script [12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I wrote the boat script they are using [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I just pointed to the work you and MB have done to the physics engines since rc2. [12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it walks a fine line [12:18] Ubit Umarov: guess they mean the script suports both.. not that the region runs both [12:18] Ubit Umarov: but you need ask them [12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes that is what they mean [12:19] Ubit Umarov: im really loosing pacience to read g+ comments [12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the script works fine to cross from ubODE to bullet, as well [12:19] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The region has signs indicating that it runs both' [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you also weren't here for the comment by Leighton.Marjoram -> congrats to the devs for getting 0.9 release out. [12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are wrong, it does not "Run Both" the boats "run on both" [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did not think it was even possible to run both [12:20] Ubit Umarov: firing 2 engines on same instant will most likely smoke badly [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I read it as the scripts work with both engines. [12:20] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ah -- I will talk to Kaz on that [12:21] Ubit Umarov: well remove the "most likelly" from sentence above.. will smoke badly :) [12:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I did not get the impression that the region ran both at the same time -- [12:22] Ubit Umarov: guess just EN thing [12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Well I can tell you 100% that they are talking about the scripts because, I just talked to Kaz the other night, and talk to Jay almost every day ... He just needed to be more specific in his post [12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I did not get that from it either, but can also see where some people might think that too [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: You can't run two different physics in a single instance as there is only one setting used to select which physics engine to use. [12:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yep [12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Not to mention you can't tell an object/script what engine to use , so just not a case where it is even posssible [12:24] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will be talking to Kaz -- There are 2 boxes that tend to give the impression that the region runs both -- I took that to mean that it could run either -- at different times [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: At different times, yes. Not at the same time. [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ossl can aks the region which physics engine it runs on [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you could have different code paths in the same script [12:25] Ubit Umarov: yes Selby.Evans [12:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Kaz does switch back and forth between engines, when they are testing, and I know she runs a mix on her regions .. [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: That is easily done. [12:26] Ubit Umarov: changing btw bullet/ubode in different runs works ok [12:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The sim said it was running Bullet when I was there [12:26] Ubit Umarov: to make sure sit on a box :) [12:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: The script I wrote for them does not bother with detection, it just walks a fine line down the middle of them, works good on both but not great on either, they just wanted something "universal" [12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: It is encouraging to hear about a set of scripts that are running the same (or with no noticeable different) with both physics engines. [12:27] Ubit Umarov: a simple physical box.. bullet and ubOde sits are diferent [12:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok -- puzzle resolved [12:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and I wrote it in an hour, and have not got a chance to update it [12:27] George Equus: bullet=sit mid air - ubODE sit on the prim  right? [12:27] Ubit Umarov: one should expect diferent dynamics on both engines [12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yes [12:28] Ubit Umarov: yes george [12:28] Ubit Umarov: ( unless the prim is phantom.. then ubOde sits as bullet ) [12:28] George Equus: ahh. so got that clarified :)  Thanks [12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Some people see their preferred as the greatest and everything else as broken, so regardless of the facts, some people just don't allow for "differences" [12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: A sit position offset between the engines will annoy some people. [12:29] Ubit Umarov: it is not sit offset [12:29] Ubit Umarov: it is unscripted sits [12:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it is un-scripted sit position, sit pos in the scripts work fine [12:29] George Equus: ubODE sit seem the "natural" expected [12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of confusing info on G+ presented as truth [12:29] Ubit Umarov: this is ubOde sit [12:29] George Equus: right [12:30] Ubit Umarov: try that on bullet [12:30] George Equus: no thanks  :) [12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, right. That was due to the avatar height calculation? [12:30] Ubit Umarov: no andrew [12:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: there is a lot of people talking about how bad ubODE or .9 is that  have not even touched it, and they should not be allowed to state opinions as facts ... [12:30] Ubit Umarov: a bit more complex than that.. [12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. [12:31] Ubit Umarov: it is sits done by physics [12:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and is very cool [12:31] Ubit Umarov: uncripted sits ! [12:32] George Equus: very practical [12:32] George Equus: and natural anywhere on the ground [12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the viewer [12:33] Ubit Umarov: its something sl always had.. [12:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (this is a good example of why we need to have this meeting on a sim running master with ubODE LOL) [12:34] Ubit Umarov: then removed? then added? no idea :) [12:34] Ubit Umarov: well this is using ubOde [12:34] Ubit Umarov: AHH [12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ground sit is in the viewer and it works on Bullet too [12:35] Ubit Umarov: seen last meeting there was a talk why i did not want meetings at Wright [12:35] Ubit Umarov: and you all missed the point [12:35] George Equus: lag...? [12:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: 50 bazillion prims? [12:35] Ubit Umarov: it is just because it makes not sense to do meetings on a 35K prims MALL [12:36] Ubit Umarov: wright plazza is a 35K+ prims freebies place [12:36] Ubit Umarov: not a place to have meetings  with ppl coming via HG etc etc [12:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Is it too much to ask for the Devs to have a Dev Meeting sim? [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If the region isn't laggy why should it matter if there is a mall nearby? [12:37] Ubit Umarov: we have no box [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is owned by the devs [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm [12:37] Ubit Umarov: so i did ask osg admin to give us another place [12:37] Ubit Umarov: they decided this... [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'll offer again, I can connect a perm place to meet [12:37] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: so they can access the console maybe? [12:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I keep an OSG connected region all the time anyway [12:38] Ubit Umarov: guess they where preparing this region.. so we are here temporary [12:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I can give access to a login for the console, I do it for customers [12:38] Ubit Umarov: 3600 prims is a lot better than 10x more :) [12:39] George Equus: Mayby speak to Dan directly about this Bill? [12:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I can try [12:39] George Equus: If no security issues involved I see no problems... [12:39] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Bill is offering such a place... all is needed is the devs saying: "That would be a good thing:-)" [12:40] George Equus: precisely [12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have the conference center, but it is not connected to OSG [12:40] George Equus: no costs involved at all [12:40] Ubit Umarov: ppl its simple [12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid.xmir.org:8002:Barcola [12:40] George Equus: for OSGrid that is [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't really matter to me where we meet. [12:40] Ubit Umarov: meeting places specialy open for HG should be as light as possible [12:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: a green place, everyone brings his/her own chair ^^ [12:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I keep a region connected all the time, and do nothing with it, so would not be a big deal to switch it over to an meeting space or add another, I'll talk to Dan at some point soon [12:41] Ubit Umarov: so ppl even with weak hardware can join [12:41] Ubit Umarov: that was my reason.. not the things said on last meeting [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I mainly remember you complaining about region lag at Wright Plaza. [12:42] George Equus: a plain grassy region with some nice trees and some seats... nothing more [12:42] George Equus: 25 prims [12:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Could just sandbox the place, and as was said, bring your own chair, and have it clean up after itself [12:42] Ubit Umarov: the odd part on this, is that i was forced to take a somewhat strong position to make the change happen... [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: As long there isn't a grassy knoll nearby. [12:42] Ubit Umarov: but details [12:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 takes note, build grassy knoll .. [12:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid.xmir.org:8002:Sandbox is more or less empty of stuff [12:43] Ubit Umarov: actually having meetings on several grids could be a option.. if logistics allow [12:43] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: if it is ubOde-powered we only need to rez a prim to sit upon ... [12:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that may not be a bad thing .. [12:43] Ubit Umarov: ( of course grids on 0.9 :p ) [12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: We would just need a way to direct people to the right place. [12:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Seeing how Opensim .9 is being used by various grids could be, "enlightening" [12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: With ubODE enabled region we could sit anywhere. [12:44] Ubit Umarov: well some times physics sits give odd results [12:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: how about having a group for all the regular attendents of the meeting? [12:44] Ubit Umarov: again mesh makers need to take that into consideration [12:44] Ubit Umarov: a example here [12:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and just put a TP here that gets updated with the new HG address .. [12:45] Ubit Umarov: lol [12:45] Ubit Umarov: see ? [12:45] Ubit Umarov: the sits are on the physical mesh [12:46] Ubit Umarov: and it may not match the visual.. like on this spot [12:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so on cubes and such it works fine, on mesh, not always the best [12:46] Ubit Umarov: ( i tried to sit on the bar below me ) [12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: set a sit target [12:46] Ubit Umarov: yeap.. scripts work as before [12:47] Ubit Umarov: for precise sit control [12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If I want a mesh object to be sitable unscripted I set a sit target for it and delete the script after [12:47] George Equus: railing didn't work that great :) [12:48] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:48] Ubit Umarov: yes george [12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: that is still a scripted sit as you set a location [12:48] Ubit Umarov: the physical mesh is simplified [12:48] Ubit Umarov: aaron did nto consider sits on the rail [12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but the sit target I stored in the prim /mesh [12:48] Ubit Umarov: oops [12:48] Ubit Umarov: Aaach [12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the script deleted [12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: unscripted sit refers to no sit target being specified for a prim. [12:49] Ubit Umarov: yes [12:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: someone throw some rotation on this and we have an amusement park ride [12:49] Ubit Umarov: you all remember that SL did this [12:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I have some scripts for rides. :) [12:50] Ubit Umarov: opensim did not had the code till ubOde [12:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but setting the target is a cheap way of fixing sit issues on a mesh object [12:50] Ubit Umarov: ( bullet can have it in future also.. ) [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also helps of course to get the object rotated correct on upload [12:51] Ubit Umarov: we use script sits to control the position and animations etc [12:51] Andrew Hellershanks: It also limits the number of people that can sit on a prim [12:51] Ubit Umarov: im simple cases.. like this meeting cylinder no need for that now :) [12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: true, but many objects are designed for one sitter :-) [12:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 waits patiently for uBullet .... [12:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 hides [12:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: lol [12:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, keep that up and someone may send a bullet your way. ;) [12:52] Ubit Umarov: :p [12:53] Ubit Umarov: :) [12:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 is not scared of ego bullets [12:53] Ubit Umarov: like at SL viewers AO may get in the way [12:53] George Equus: I'd like to try a script here if I may?  Giving me troubles back home since 3 or 4 updates back from Dan, refuse to run properly now. Is in a "surveillance Bot"  Now it just sit and occasionally twitches a bit...regardless of physics (run ubODE) [12:53] Andrew Hellershanks: With that I think it is time to wrap up the meeting for today. [12:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the camera direction determines if you sit on the outer or inner periperal [12:54] George Equus: Not urgent, can wait if no time now [12:54] Ubit Umarov: i have no control  on this region [12:54] Ubit Umarov: mantis it [12:55] Ubit Umarov: always better to mantis issues [12:55] George Equus: well, can't word it right, just stopped working, no idea how to fix it [12:55] Ubit Umarov: well bugs happen :) [12:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: have you recompiled it George? [12:55] George Equus: need someone good at scripting to see what's wrong/need change [12:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (i know silly question) [12:55] George Equus: recompiled yes [12:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'd be happy to take a look at it for you george [12:56] Ubit Umarov: and sometimes fixing a issue does break scripts that did depend on the bad behavour [12:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes [12:56] George Equus: Ooops-... prim ran away... seem to work here [12:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have said it before, "Sometimes you have to burn a bridge to keep the bad stuff from following you" [12:57] George Equus: looking for it... [12:57] Ubit Umarov: hope it was temp :P [12:57] George Equus: nope... lol