Chat log from the meeting on 2009-07-07

[09:50] Dorothea Lundquist is Online [09:50] Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Nas Messing to LBSA Plaza. [09:50] Nas Messing is Online [09:51] Nas Messing: Hi arain [09:51] Nas Messing: again [09:51] Nas Messing: hihi [09:51] Orion Shamroy: Interesting... Crossing regions sets you in the landing point now? [09:51] Nas Messing: i crash [09:51] Nebadon Izumi: yes [09:51] Nebadon Izumi: thats the MRM telehub Orion [09:51] Orion Shamroy: COOL! :D I'll have to play round with that :) [09:52] Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Quarterly Sideshow to LBSA Plaza. [09:52]  Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Rowland Larkham to LBSA Plaza. [09:52]  Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Xingyun.shan 76.188.209.193:9000 to LBSA Plaza. [09:52]  Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 to LBSA Plaza. [09:53]  Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: hi neb [09:53]  Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Adam Frisby to LBSA Plaza. [09:53]  Nas Messing is Offline [09:53]  Adam Frisby is Online [09:53]  Adam Frisby: much better [09:54]  Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: hello adam [09:54]  Adam Frisby: Been getting lots of hypergrid visitors here [09:54]  Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: have just change grid coord of cyberlandia [09:54]  Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: from 1000.1000 to 7000.7000 [09:55]  Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: i can teleport here directely [09:55] Carlos.Roundel @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002: secondlife://grid.cyberlandia.net:9000/ [09:55] Adam Frisby: Ah heh. yeah probably a good move. [09:55] Nebadon Izumi: welcome back [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: hey Adam [09:56] Lbsa Plaza Telehub: Welcome Jamiez Rascall to LBSA Plaza. [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: request [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: on peoples profiles [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: if your logged in and its your profile [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: can you have it list the UUIDs [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: of your regions [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: for just you [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: oh crpas [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: meeting [09:56] Adam Frisby: meeting? [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: Tuesday Meeting [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: is starting right now [09:56] Adam Frisby: oh cool [09:56] Richardus Raymaker is Online [09:56] Adam Frisby: TP me. [09:56] Adam Frisby: what sim? [09:56] Nebadon Izumi: kk [09:56]  Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza [09:57] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Lbsa%20Plaza/120/131/38 [09:57] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details. [09:57] Penny Lane: LL has a habit of calling a "security risk" everything that they haven't put into SL [09:57]  WhiteStar Magic: Hey there JCC [09:57] Penny Lane: Hiya JCC [09:57] Compile successful [09:57] Friendly Harbour whispers: grrrr .. am i sitting or standing now??? [09:57] Compile successful [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Reading notecard (will retry in 30 seconds). [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: NOT ADDED: stand3 - Not found in inventory [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: AO is now active [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Friendly Harbour arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: WhiteStar Magic arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Mojito Sorbet arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Master Dubrovna arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: dz ozb arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Justin Clark-Casey arrived [09:57] Nebs AO v0.3: Adam Frisby arrived [09:57] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Penny, or more usually something they cannot get to work! [09:57] Penny Lane: Standing [09:57] Penny Lane: Now sitting [09:57] Friendly Harbour: finally [09:57] WhiteStar Magic: hence why llTextBox still is not implemented [09:57] dz ozb: my understanding is the volume of notecards is the issue preventing SL from allowing createable/writeable notecards [09:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone [09:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hey neb [09:58] Penny Lane: Hi Neb! [09:58]  WhiteStar Magic: Hey Neb [09:58] Mojito Sorbet: It also changes the Asset Server from a write-one/read-many store [09:58] Mojito Sorbet: And thus requires locking, etc [09:58] Master Dubrovna: Hi Neb [09:58] Penny Lane waves at Mojito :-) [09:58]  Adam Frisby: The write-once thing is an important one. [09:58]  Adam Frisby: Because it means you cant do caching anymore. [09:58]  Adam Frisby: At least caching off UUID [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1:  [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 1) ASD Rupture [HD] [demoscene] [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 2) masagin [HD] [demoscene] [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 3) fr 025 final2 720p [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 4) [demoscene] Synesthetics - STS-02 Electric Kool-Aid [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 5) [demoscene] NCE - Demoscene Activist [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 6) [demoscene] plastic - 195-95 [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 7) [demoscene] Haujobb - Elements [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 8) [demoscene] MFX - Deities Final [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 9) [demoscene] ASD - Planet Risk [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 10) [demoscene] ASD - Iconoclast [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: 11) [demoscene] ASD - Aphorism for the Masses [09:58] Youtube Video Player v1.1: 12) [demoscene] ArtCity - Anadune and Nah-Kolor [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1:  [09:58]  Youtube Video Player v1.1: Enter the title number OR a youtube URL at /4 [09:58]  Penny Lane: Spammer! [09:58]  Mojito Sorbet: I am, pretty sure THAT is why LL does not allow writing [09:58]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [09:59]  Adam Frisby: Yeah, not being able to cache is a very significant problem. [09:59]  Adam Frisby: Especially given the high volume of requests [09:59]  Adam Frisby: Frankly, if you want R/W db-like access, use a f'ing database. ;) [09:59] Mojito Sorbet: Perhaps a new object type, stored separately, JUST for that purpose though.. [09:59] Adam Frisby: Might be better to ask for something like osRunSql(server, command) [09:59] Friendly Harbour: anyone have a url to a webpage/wiki with info about the new ini fileformat for use with regions? [09:59] Nebs AO v0.3: Richardus Raymaker arrived [10:00] Adam Frisby: or use MRM [10:00] Mojito Sorbet: There are outside servces that provide writable storage via HTTP. Seems to work [10:00] Adam Frisby: http://maxping.org/technology/platforms/open-simulator/more-experiments-with-mrm.aspx <--- using MySQL with MRM [10:00] Nebs AO v0.3: Strawberry Fride arrived [10:00] Nebs AO v0.3: Orion Shamroy arrived [10:01] WhiteStar Magic: LOL... I was just about to post that [10:01] Nebs AO v0.3: Brent Seidel arrived [10:01] Penny Lane: VWs don't have a good fit with RDBMSs, they're essentially hierarchical and not table-structured. [10:01] WhiteStar Magic: it;'s a great example [10:01] Adam Frisby: Hey Strawberry [10:01] Strawberry Fride: hi folks :) [10:01]  Penny Lane: Hi Straw [10:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: Hello Strawverry [10:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: oops, Strawberry [10:01]  Adam Frisby: Neb, your map is up side down. [10:01]  Charles Krinke is Online [10:01]  Strawberry Fride: meh - I take whatever's thrown at me :) [10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha [10:02]  Nebadon Izumi: lol ya [10:02]  Nebadon Izumi: your right [10:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:02] Adam Frisby: I'm always right. >_> <_< [10:02] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi all [10:02] Nebadon Izumi: on could argue the entire sign is upside down [10:02] Brent Seidel: Good [morning, afternoon, night] all [10:02] Charles Krinke is Offline [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: actually i think the upside down signs is the issue [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi Richardus [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: the photo one keeps returning to 90 rotation too [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: not sure why [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello brent [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: i never noticed the map was doing it too though [10:03] Nebs AO v0.3: Warin Cascabel arrived [10:03] Penny Lane: Hi Richardus [10:03] Mojito Sorbet: Depends on the orientation of the screen when it was created. [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: its scripted to update every 15 minutes [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: that might be resetting it [10:03]  Nebs AO v0.3: Charles Krinke arrived [10:03] Charles Krinke is Online [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool charles is here [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: once he settles in we can get started [10:04] Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello Charles [10:04] Adam Frisby: there we go [10:04]  Charles Krinke: Morning [10:04] Adam Frisby: Morning [10:04] Penny Lane: Hiya CK [10:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: Good morning Mr Krinke [10:05] Strawberry Fride: Hi Charles :) [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: everyone remember to rebakke [10:05]  Richardus Raymaker: moreving charles [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: so your not grey [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: for the meeting photo [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:05]  Penny Lane: I wonder why my viewer clock says 10:05 AM PST, not 11 [10:05]  Charles Krinke: Ah, yes. Thats a good point. [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: our server is set for UTC [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its a problem [10:05]  WhiteStar Magic: hey Wrin, I just setup your visitor list. Marvy code there [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: since the viewer wants PST [10:05]  Adam Frisby: If anyone is bored and looking for something to do; go put all the weekly meetings into our new event calendar. [10:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its doing funky math [10:05]  Warin Cascabel: THanks, WhiteStar. :) [10:05] tx Oh: huhu [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi whitestar [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi tx [10:06]  Charles Krinke: Time has always been funky and some time we need to harmonize everything to UTC [10:06] Dorothea Lundquist is Offline [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i think if our UGAIM was running on PST it would show the correct time [10:06] Mojito Sorbet: UTC for a grid clock makes much more sense that PST [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: but [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: if we change now [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: our stats get whacked [10:06] Adam Frisby: Nebadon: it's mroe than that. [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: the website could have issues [10:06] Adam Frisby: Our calculator is busted there too [10:06] Strawberry Fride: would be lovely if there were a timezone packet thing that could be sent to the client so it reflected grid timezone and time [10:07] Charles Krinke: I guess the first question is "How is recent reliability and stability for trunk for everyone?". This leads to the question of advancing the "recommended" release for the week. [10:07] Richardus Raymaker: then wait till wintertime and whack it [10:07]  Strawberry Fride: the 0.6.6 tag looks good - couple of minor issues with it I've seen so far [10:07] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [10:07] Adam Frisby: I've been seeing mixed results with revisions this week. [10:07] Dorothea Lundquist is Online [10:07] Penny Lane: UTC is the only way to go. I suspect that SL is going to be small-minded and stay PST-based though. [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya seems to be some decline on Lbsa with 9960 [10:07] Adam Frisby: mostly good; but I've been seeing an odd physics bug on lbsa plaza [10:07] Adam Frisby: Where ODE shoots to 100% usage [10:07] Adam Frisby: after about an hour or two [10:07] Adam Frisby: it's nearly completely reproducible. [10:07] Adam Frisby: Just leave it alone and it'll die. [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya but its related to logins adam [10:08] Orion Shamroy: Well, 9975 has been working pretty well for the past few days on my end? [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: if lbsa had no logins [10:08] Charles Krinke: Can anyone help confirm ODE CPU usage shooting up for Adam's testing? [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: that wouldnt happen for weeks [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: that ODE issue [10:08] Warin Cascabel: I've been having issues with r997x - mostly related to inventory and the region (and neighboring regions) recognizing when an agent has left. [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: its directly related to the number of logins occuring [10:08] Nebs AO v0.3: Hiro Protagonist arrived [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt about that [10:08] Hiro Protagonist is Online [10:08] Strawberry Fride: I have seen CPU rise to 100% for bursts of about 5 seconds and falling on an otherwise idle machine [10:08] Charles Krinke: So, last week stability was a bit better then this week? [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: IMHO i say its unchanged [10:09] tx Oh: i have strange tp issues. halfe here, half there [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: looks ok for me, not sure how many visitors i get [10:09] Charles Krinke: Leave "recommended" at last weeks 9961 or advance to near trunk? [10:09] Warin Cascabel: Last week I didn't have to restart a region just so it would retrieve inventory. Now it'll say "Ignoring repeated requests for inventory" at least a couple of times a day. [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: reset list [10:09] Penny Lane blinks slowly not to panic the server [10:09] Nebs AO v0.3: Nas Messing arrived [10:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Script running [10:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Visitor List Maker started... [10:09]  Visitor List Recorder v1.1: The owner can say 'help' for instructions. [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: lol penny [10:10] Strawberry Fride: melanie fixed the load balancer module after 9961 - not sure when she did that but a fixed load balancer in a tagged branch would be nice [10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: do you use the load balancer? [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: thats probably not to hard we just need the svn revision # [10:10] Adam Frisby: I think load balancing probably isnt as valuable as suggested. [10:10] Strawberry Fride: would like to try it [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i dont expect it works all that well [10:10] Adam Frisby: Give it a shot; but if it's anything ilke the old 3Di one, the cost of balancing is almost as high as the savings. [10:11] Strawberry Fride: :) [10:11]  Charles Krinke: I would concur. I dont recall anyone using the load balancing feature. [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: it is the old 3Di one [10:11]  Nebs AO v0.3: Hiro Protagonist arrived [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: its unchanged Adam [10:11]  Mojito Sorbet: Which load is it attemp@ting to balance? [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: she just updated the module code i think [10:11]  Adam Frisby: Then yeah, the benefit is very minimal. [10:11]  Adam Frisby: Mojito: It load balances your circuits. (sort of like TCP sessions in LLUDP) [10:11]  Richardus Raymaker: hi hero [10:11]  Adam Frisby: it works well for handling packet acks, etc. [10:11]  Adam Frisby: But they arent the major killer of opensim anymore [10:11]  Adam Frisby: so the other gains are very minimal [10:11]  Strawberry Fride: not having tried it I'm unsure exactly on the benefits [10:11]  Strawberry Fride: but I heard it might help spread chat over a border [10:12] Doing HUD: Script running [10:13] BlueWall Slade is Online [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: i remember at one point we had chat going across the borders [10:13] Nas Messing is Online [10:13] Adam Frisby: Bordercross capable chat isnt that hard to do [10:13]  Adam Frisby: just mod the chatmodule [10:13] Adam Frisby: it's already a shared region module iirc. [10:14] Strawberry Fride: I have alternatives that help with that in place [10:14] Strawberry Fride: but that sounds good [10:14] Orion Shamroy: I've noticed that if the two sims are on the same OS instance chat will cross? :) [10:14] Penny Lane: Is vicinity chat treated like group IM but with a distance parameter? Or totally separate? [10:14]  Adam Frisby: Vicinity chat is handled via a seperate path [10:14]  Adam Frisby: Group IM goes via a groups service [10:15]  Adam Frisby: I'm a little concerned about scalability there; but I guess until it begins affecting things, I'm not going to do much [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i remember long while back we had it going over borders [10:15]  Nebs AO v0.3: Nas Messing arrived [10:15]  Charles Krinke: Are we at the point where we need to harmonize OpenSim.ini files a bit on OSGrid to help get more consistent results? Maybe have folks look regularly at the OpenSim.ini for this plaza on the osgrid.org web site? [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: it might even be a configurable option [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: that is not documented [10:15]  Nas Messing: Hi everyone [10:15]  Nas Messing: am i invited here too [10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: hello nas [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: though that was long ago [10:15] Penny Lane: Hi Nas [10:15] Charles Krinke: certainly Nas [10:15] Nas Messing: or must i go away [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: might be refactored since then [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: no all are welcome Nas [10:15] Brent Seidel: It's open to anyone [10:15] Nas Messing: thank you [10:15] Nebs AO v0.3: BlueWall Slade arrived [10:15] Richardus Raymaker: hi nas [10:15] Brent Seidel: They let me hang around. [10:16] Charles Krinke: Welcome. This is our regular Tuesday "Offce Hour" meeting and things might go a little fast for someone not used to it. [10:16] Nas Messing: will we have party [10:16] Nas Messing: or just sit here [10:16] Nas Messing: hihi [10:16] Mojito Sorbet: Hold still, lest the server crash. lol [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: we mostly are discussing hot topics of the week [10:16] Charles Krinke: Question: "What are the things we can do to tighten up our testing results this week to help the developers?" [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: in relationship to development [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: hello bluewall [10:17] Penny Lane: Hi Blue! [10:17] BlueWall Slade: Hi [10:17]  Strawberry Fride: hi Bluewall! [10:17] BlueWall Slade: everyone having a good day? [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: hey bluewall [10:17] Charles Krinke: Personal aside: "I need to go to a luncheon in a little bit for a fellow leaving the company today" [10:17] Penny Lane: Yes thanks :-) [10:17]  Richardus Raymaker: hi blue [10:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya great day so far :) [10:18] Penny Lane: BlueWall += cookie [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: no problem Charles [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ok [10:18]  Adam Frisby: I ate all my cookies. :( [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: something i would like us to talk about [10:18]  Penny Lane: Awww [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: is the OSGrid 2nd Birthday [10:18]  BlueWall Slade: cookies? [10:18]  Penny Lane: Adam += cookie [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: we need volunteers [10:18]  Hiro Protagonist: we shall continue to endeavor to persevere [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: people to have events and coordinate with others who are [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: Adam might have something to add too [10:19]  Adam Frisby: Oh yeah [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: in terms of the Birthhday discussion [10:19]  BlueWall Slade: nice [10:19]  Adam Frisby: So we're like 2. We want to get some events organised, etc. [10:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: will osgrid have a cake? [10:19]  Adam Frisby: Since no-one else has volunteered for the job, I'll probably take over organising it. [10:19]  Penny Lane: Neb: perhaps you could outline how testing is done, for those who haven't yet? Is there a test harness, unit tests, regression, etc? [10:19] Nas Messing: i am here [10:19] Adam Frisby: Penny: that stuff is done by automated means at panda (panda.opensimulator.org) [10:19] Nas Messing: i can help [10:19] WhiteStar Magic: maybe Nakad Hippo's can jump out of teh cake too [10:19] Nas Messing: if anyone wants me [10:19]  Brent Seidel: I can probably help out. Just tell me what to do. [10:19] Penny Lane: Adam: brill! Looking [10:20] Nebs AO v0.3: Carlos Roundel arrived [10:20] Adam Frisby: For OSG2B - We want to get some events and things organised. [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: great, just coordinate with Adam primarily and then me if you cant reach Adam [10:20] Adam Frisby: Anything anyone wants to contribute; just throw it up on the osgrid.org event calendar (on the website) [10:20] Adam Frisby: I'm off IRC for a few days, because my IRC box kinda died. [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya start by creating a event on osgrid.org website [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: offline messagine works on the plazas [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: so if you want to be sure Adam and I get a message on the grid when were offline [10:21] Warin Cascabel: Oh, nice. [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: go to a plaza then IM us [10:21]  Hiro Protagonist: that is sweet [10:21] Charles Krinke: The pertinence to this meeting of OSG2B is it becomes a giant stress test of the entire grid and successfully making it happen indicates good stability and reliability for OpenSim. [10:21] Adam Frisby: Yeah, fingers crossed we can set a concurrency record [10:21] Charles Krinke: Those issues that happen during OSG2B should be Mantised with additional notes by those finding similar bugs. [10:21] Adam Frisby: Crucial date is the 22nd, but we'll try be running stuff through to the 26th [10:22] Nas Messing: am i just ghost here [10:22] Nas Messing: sorry [10:22] Charles Krinke: Absoslutely, Adam. Concurrency is the key. We have the chance to stress concurrency and see how well OpenSim will hold up under heavy duty concurrency. [10:22] Adam Frisby: So yeah; keep an eye on the event calendar. I'll post the opening gala details there in the next day or two [10:23] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:23] Adam Frisby: We just need to organise first where we're going to host the official events. [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: I heard that concurrency just hits a wall after 21, at least on mono [10:23] Adam Frisby: need to dig up some additional servers. [10:23] Nas Messing: nobody need me [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: if anyone needs graphics for their sims [10:23] Adam Frisby: Justin: definetely true. [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: OSGrid logos [10:23] Adam Frisby: Mono has issues at 20-30 users [10:23] Nas Messing: i am just a problem here [10:23] Adam Frisby: Windows can do 30+ fine [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: anything just let us know [10:23] Nas Messing: sorry to all [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting [10:24] tx Oh: what kind of issues are that [10:24] Charles Krinke: Justin. I think we are talking concurrency for the UGAIM, but you have a good point. We are seeing UGAIM concurrency pushing 100 at times. [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: oh okay, sorry [10:24] Adam Frisby: Yeah, Saturday evening, we get 100+ on OSGrid [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: you mean 100 users with session at once? [10:24] Adam Frisby: http://osgrid.org/stats/detail.php?graph=9&tree=&filter= [10:24] Strawberry Fride: not had the chance to do a load test in a while but we did get 40 on my sim on ReactionGrid a couple of months ago. Had less stability of late, though tried out 0.6.6 on our event sim at the weekend and all attendees to movie night survived intact for first time in weeks [10:24] Charles Krinke: But, we need t know both region and grid concurrency limits. And, Justin, I was talkling about the entire grid. [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: well this event is doing ok [10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: we can have a load of this size for a good hour or 2 [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: without much issue [10:25] Adam Frisby: We've got 71 sessions on the UGIM right now [10:25] Adam Frisby: Should hit 20K signups today too. [10:25] Strawberry Fride: excellent! [10:26] Charles Krinke: Anyone testing HyperGrid lately? Anything to share on success (or not success) ? [10:26] Adam Frisby: HG has been working well for me. [10:26] Adam Frisby: I've been visiting all over the place since we enabled it on Lbsa [10:26] WhiteStar Magic: I'm running 9962 server and HG is certainly working much smoother on this version of OpenSim [10:26] Sean Dague is Online [10:26] tx Oh: works like normal tp. sometimes it goes, sometime not. [10:26] Nebs AO v0.3: Sean Dague arrived [10:26] Adam Frisby: Hey Sean [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that's probably due to a lot of the perf work IBM did [10:27] WhiteStar Magic: 9964, sorry [10:27] Adam Frisby: Justin: Intel [10:27] Charles Krinke: Coolness on HyperGrid. Setting up demoes of that for OSG2B is a very good thing. Anyone testing modrex lately? Anything to share on success (or not success) ? [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: diva still working on grider? [10:27] Adam Frisby: Intel's been the one doing profiling [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i think so [10:27]  Sean Dague: afternoon folks [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i think Diva is on summer break [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: hey sean [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: probably not much time for opensim [10:27] WhiteStar Magic: Actually, if you would like, I could provide updated and revised HG portals for the party [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, lucky her, very sensible :) [10:27]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Sean [10:28]  Agnes Chalet is Online [10:28]  Charles Krinke: Sean. Welcome, oh great grand wizard from the Hudson Valley. [10:28]  Nebs AO v0.3: Niek Bergman arrived [10:28]  Adam Frisby: Charles: I have been meaning to test Modrex 0.5 - now that Rex is finally opensim-trunk compatible. [10:28]  Sean Dague: well at least lesser wizard apprentice [10:28]  WhiteStar Magic: JCC Diva patched it a little while and let it set till after holidays [10:28]  Adam Frisby: I wanted to hack it up to work with opensim grid mode earlier, so we could try it on osgrid [10:29]  Charles Krinke: I am hoping to see some momentum in deploying a few modrex enabled regions on OSGrid and getting reports on modrex and the RexViewer. [10:29]  Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:29]  Adam Frisby: The new rexviewer is interesting. [10:29] Adam Frisby: but also, I havent had time to take a look yet properly. [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya im excited about the new viewer [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: i hear it only can render 1 region though [10:29] Adam Frisby: It IS nice to see a proper ground up viewer done though. [10:29] Adam Frisby: Nebadon: sounds right, it's only 0.1A [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i need to test it [10:30]  Charles Krinke: Gotta go to a business luncheon, sorry guys. [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: ok Charles [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: no problem [10:30] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:30] Charles Krinke is Offline [10:30] Brent Seidel: bye Charles [10:30] Nebs AO v0.3: dz ozb arrived [10:30] tx Oh: a client is just more then a render engine. sighs [10:31] Adam Frisby: tx: Yeah, UI is a very important factor [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: i hope we can soo have Rex meshes on osgrid [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: that would be really cool [10:31] Nebs AO v0.3: Starky Rubble arrived [10:31] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:31] Adam Frisby: Yeah; be nice to get Meshes -- the catch is we've still got the bulk of users logging in with the SL viewer. (alas!) [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: the SL based rex viewer still doesent run for me either [10:31] Strawberry Fride: pesky SL viewer - now if they only supported meshes [10:31] Adam Frisby: The meerkat devs have been interested in adding meshes in. [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: that would be cool [10:32] Adam Frisby: actually the meerkat devs seem open to making viewer changes for us [10:32]  tx Oh: has anyone tried the blender client plugin? that might help to get a builder tool in a new client [10:32] Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: is it possible for us to currently store meshes as a blob? [10:32] Sean Dague: Adam, per previous, Dirk's been busy on perf fixes. Hopefully we'll have some more flowing from us [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: if we had a proper viewer [10:32] Adam Frisby: nebadon: yes. [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:32] Adam Frisby: we can upload meshes as assets and they dont get mangled [10:32] Adam Frisby: it's how modrex works [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:32] Adam Frisby: Sean: Oh great. [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: without modification to the asset services adam? [10:32] Adam Frisby: Hopefully between that an the Intel/Sciencesim profiling - OpenSim should begin to really soar. [10:32] Penny Lane: Snowglobe crashed, OSgrid didn't. OSgrid wins ;-) [10:32]  Sean Dague: he put in 13 patches already with some of the early stuff that was discovered in the network stack [10:33]  Adam Frisby: Nebadon: correct. [10:33]  Niek Bergman is Offline [10:33]  Adam Frisby: Sean: did you see MS's mono announcement? [10:33]  Strawberry Fride: great to hear Sean :) [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: nice ADam [10:33] Sean Dague: yep [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: i assumned it would require back end mods [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: thats awesome [10:33] Adam Frisby: I'm happy to see that finally happened. [10:33] Penny Lane: Which announcement Adam? [10:33] Nebs AO v0.3: Orion Hax arrived [10:34] Sean Dague: yeh, I get sick of answering that question :) [10:34]  Adam Frisby: MS's adding royalty free patent licenses to the whole C# + .NET standard that's under ECMA. [10:34]  BlueWall Slade is Online [10:34]  Penny Lane: Excellent [10:34]  Brent Seidel: Good [10:34]  Adam Frisby: So basically MS cant sue anyone using Mono; or at least the subset of mono that opensim uses. [10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: nice i saw that, but didnt fully understand the implecations of it [10:34]  Adam Frisby: which clears up a lot of the anti-Mono FUD. [10:34]  Sean Dague: once the mono split packages are out there we'll need to verify that OpenSim runs under the patent free stuff [10:34]  Adam Frisby: Sean: the only concern I have is ADO [10:35]  Adam Frisby: I think we might be using ADO in places; although I'm not sure. [10:35]  Sean Dague: yeh, but I don't think we need to use it any more [10:35]  Sean Dague: so it will just be a scrubbing session to clear that out [10:35] Adam Frisby: Probably not. Although that might make MSSQL incompatible [10:35] Nebs AO v0.3: BlueWall Slade arrived [10:35] Strawberry Fride: MSSQL code uses the SQL server specific code in .net for native data comms - not much use for mono there [10:35] Adam Frisby: Strawberry: what do you think about moving the MSSQL adapter to the forge? [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: use mysql :) [10:36]  Strawberry Fride: I would maintain it - I understand your concerns - would be a bit disappointed but that's not my call :) if someone can explain to me how the heck to get it back in to opensim then that would be lovely [10:36] Nebs AO v0.3: Arthur Valadares arrived [10:36] Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:36] Strawberry Fride: and no, would never use MySQL (spits on the floor) ;) [10:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: another MySQL hater? :) [10:36] Adam Frisby: pfft. MySQL is fine. [10:36] Nebs AO v0.3: Arthur Valadares arrived [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:37] Strawberry Fride: lol - I wrote a book on MySQL, MSSQL, Oracle and Access once [10:37] Strawberry Fride: never again [10:37] Adam Frisby: Except when InnoDB crashes and we have to de-corrupt a table without tools. (Hi OSGrid UGIM Database circa January) [10:37] Penny Lane: Horses for courses. Let everyone use what suits their business and worldview. That's why there are adapters. [10:37] Brent Seidel: Hey, anyone for PostgreSQL? [10:37] Strawberry Fride: exactly [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:37] Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:37] Nebadon Izumi breifly curls into fetal position at thought of january asset table [10:37] Adam Frisby: Irony is that MySQL is now owned by Oracle. [10:37] Strawberry Fride: I just know MSSQL and happen to kinda like it - no issues with anything else [10:38] BlueWall Slade: it would be good to have PgSQL [10:38] Strawberry Fride: yes! Oracle based opensim would be interesting [10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: deal hasn't completed yet though? [10:38] Adam Frisby: Justin: I thought it's just being finalized and is all but done? [10:38] Adam Frisby: I would like to see PgSQL too [10:38] tx Oh: postgres would be nice [10:38] Brent Seidel: Oracle should be possible using NHibernate. [10:38] Adam Frisby: I think Rex' NHibernate adapter could be easily done. [10:38] Adam Frisby: to add PgSQL support [10:38] Nebs AO v0.3: Orion Hax arrived [10:38] Brent Seidel: I use PostgreSQL at home [10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: yeah, you're probably right - I'm not completely uptodate [10:38] Orion Hax: my issue with mssql is it eats everything in sight [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: isnt there postgresql support project on forge? [10:38] Strawberry Fride: lol [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: there was anyway [10:38] Penny Lane: Oracle for Linux used to be free (as in beer) for non-commercial use ... is that still so? [10:38] Adam Frisby: There was a postgres project on the forge [10:38] Brent Seidel: I'm currently running r9961 with pgSQL via NHibernate [10:38] Sean Dague: yeh, the nhibernate layer kind of sucks though [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: that might have been Fly Mans baby [10:39] Adam Frisby: oh there we go [10:39]  BlueWall Slade: lol, I have always shyed away from projects that didn't support PgSQL [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: so did flyman disappear off the face? [10:39] Strawberry Fride: the schema on nhibernate, at least for mssql parts, is bad [10:39] dz ozb: penny : i think it is [10:39]  Strawberry Fride: unnecessarily large column sizes [10:39] Sean Dague: I was also disappointed that the nhibernate people bounced my bug report [10:39] Adam Frisby: Nebadon: NHIbernate is Mikko from Admino's project [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya long story Justin, but he jumped into the pit of despair [10:39] Sean Dague: "mono support is not a primary goal" [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: wow [10:39] Richardus Raymaker: PgSQL, dont work well with phpmyadmin i guess. [10:39] Adam Frisby: Sean: ugh. [10:39] BlueWall Slade: isd a native adapert hard to do? [10:39] Adam Frisby: Justin: it was very ..... precious. [10:39] tx Oh: linux support is [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:40] Sean Dague: bluewall, not really, it's just time [10:40] Sean Dague: we were hoping that nhibernate would save us time there [10:40] BlueWall Slade: it is a heavy lifter [10:40] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:40] Sean Dague: but the reality is that it seems to just slow things down [10:40] Nebs AO v0.3: Strawberry Fride arrived [10:40] BlueWall Slade: ya another layer [10:40] Sean Dague: which, honestly, isn't a huge deal for a lot of the data persistance, as it's not really the bottleneck (except for assetss) [10:41] Adam Frisby: Assets arent too much of a bottleneck [10:41] BlueWall Slade: I ran into issues with SQLite on Linux a while back [10:41] Brent Seidel: I had to do a dump and restore of my PostgreSQL database this morning (updateing) and everything came back fine. My fountain was even fountaining. [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:41] Adam Frisby: If anyone wants to see scary charts: http://assets.osgrid.org/stats/detail.php?graph=9&tree=&filter= [10:41] Adam Frisby: That's running fragstore tho. [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [10:42]  Strawberry Fride: splendid :) [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: we need an accurate dupe count one of these days [10:42]  Sean Dague: adam, any recent news on vivox relationship? [10:42]  Adam Frisby: Sean: I can put you in touch with the guys - it needs time and manpower I dont have to give right now. [10:42]  Adam Frisby: They seem keen [10:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: adam: 3 milion assets? [10:42]  Adam Frisby: Yep [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: lol ya 3 mill [10:42]  Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:43]  Penny Lane: 2.9m of them plywood cubes :-) [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:43] Adam Frisby: Nope; I did a plywood cube count actually [10:43] Warin Cascabel: Heh :) [10:43]  Adam Frisby: Only like 200K plywood cubes in the DB. ;) [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya it was low [10:43] Penny Lane: Haha [10:43] Richardus Raymaker: the problem is that there so many unused inventory things. that never get deleted [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: that's a lot of gb [10:43]  BlueWall Slade: lol [10:43] Strawberry Fride: haha [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: my guess Justincc [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: under 100gb still [10:43] BlueWall Slade: well, they all started as lowly plywood cubes [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: I just guesttimated 143gb at average 50kb per asset (which might be a little high) [10:43] Adam Frisby: Justin: we do duplicate elimination. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: well we are doing dupe compression [10:44] Adam Frisby: So if you upload the same asset twice, it's only stored once. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: so its defiantly under 100gb i think [10:44] Adam Frisby: We get about a 30% saving off that. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: its probably close though [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: cool. You're doing dupe compression using hashes? [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt im responsible for atleast 50k [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: of the assets [10:44] Adam Frisby: Justin: 256bit SHA hash [10:44] Bri Hasp is Online [10:44] Nebs AO v0.3: dz ozb arrived [10:44] Adam Frisby: sufficiently long to eliminate the change of a random collision [10:44] Adam Frisby: (or deliberate collision for that matter) [10:45] Nebs AO v0.3: Arthur Valadares arrived [10:45] Penny Lane: A histogram of assets by size vs number would be interesting [10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: from the last chart, looks like you're gorowing at about 400,000 assets pe rmonth :) [10:45]  Adam Frisby: I can fish that data out; we can query the table reasonably safely. [10:45]  Nebs AO v0.3: tx Oh arrived [10:45]  Bri Hasp is Offline [10:45]  Adam Frisby: Justin: It's about 10%/mo give or take [10:46]  Adam Frisby: It's been that way since near day 1. [10:46]  BlueWall Slade: lol, that is from debugging scripts [10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: is that s sustainable rate? [10:46]  Adam Frisby: Justin: We think so. [10:46]  Penny Lane: No, lol [10:46]  Adam Frisby: We think we can keep up for at least 18 months [10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool - I guess strorage _is_ continually getting cheaper.... [10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: :) [10:46] Adam Frisby: Yeah [10:46] Adam Frisby: In 2 years, we'll have about 3TB of assets we guess. [10:47] Adam Frisby: so it's not too bad. [10:47] Adam Frisby: Of course, if growth suddenly spikes - we might have more. [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya 3tb of HD is cheap [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: even in 10k SCSI-3 [10:47] Brent Seidel: Makes backup a bit tricky. [10:47] Adam Frisby: yeah dont get me started on that. [10:47] Sean Dague: heh [10:47] Richardus Raymaker: 24/7 backup :P [10:47] Adam Frisby: We're still waiting to get our failover equipment for this. [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: man, sounds like a gargantuan problem :) [10:47]  Adam Frisby: It's been fun. [10:47]  Adam Frisby: I've spent the last few weeks focused on getting osgrid going [10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: id say it was a bigger problem 6 months ago than right now [10:48]  Penny Lane: There's no centralized DB on the planet that can grow to Internet size nor a tiny fraction of it, so unless OSgrid membership is capped, or the DB is distributed, then it's definitely going to hit the stoppers. [10:48]  Adam Frisby: Penny: it's highly distributable. [10:48]  Adam Frisby: We have a 256bit key on everything; with an even distribution of key bits [10:48]  Adam Frisby: We can very easily cluster that. [10:48]  Adam Frisby: It's mostly a cost of bandwidth & storage problem, rather than a software one. [10:48]  Sean Dague: osgrid will be incentive to solve distributed asset services :) [10:49] Penny Lane: Hehe [10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha, necessity is the mother [10:49] Sean Dague: exactly [10:49] BlueWall Slade: and accidents the father :) [10:49]  Sean Dague: it's always better to solve a problem that's real and in front of you [10:49]  Justin Clark-Casey grins [10:49]  Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:49]  Hiro Protagonist: word, Sean [10:49]  Adam Frisby: Document storage isnt too bad. [10:49]  Penny Lane: Well Cable Beach now has a formal reference site, since last week. So that'll help on the asset front. [10:50]  Adam Frisby: I think our real problems are going to really be in other areas [10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: a formal reference site? [10:50]  Adam Frisby: Inventory is growing scary [10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: but isn't that order of magnitude less than assets? [10:50]  Adam Frisby: Inventory has me worried actually; since we could very easily have a table with 1 billion rows. [10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: orders [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its like 1,000th the size [10:50] Adam Frisby: No; we've got 1M inventory rows right now. [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: but ther ows [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: *rows [10:50] Adam Frisby: sorry 2M actually [10:50] Adam Frisby: I'm a million off. [10:50] Hiro Protagonist: :# [10:50] Adam Frisby: but that's growing faster than assets. [10:50] Penny Lane: JCC: http://code.google.com/p/cablebeach/wiki/CableBeachCore1_0 [10:50] Niek Bergman is Online [10:51] Nebs AO v0.3: Niek Bergman arrived [10:51] Adam Frisby: and I have a horrible feeling at about 50M inventory items, something's going to break. [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmm - time to charge? [10:51] Adam Frisby: We've still got a while before hitting that point - probably a year. [10:51] Nebs AO v0.3: Penny Lane arrived [10:51] Adam Frisby: Justin: I've been giving it a lot of thought [10:51] Nebs AO v0.3: Niek Bergman arrived [10:51] Adam Frisby: We can switch to other databases; but that only buys us time. [10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: thanks [10:51] Strawberry Fride: hoping that if HyperGrid goes in the right direction, distributed asset storage would be a nice option [10:52] Adam Frisby: We need a new inventory schema that can let us distribute a users inventory across multiple servers. [10:52] Strawberry Fride: micro-grids that are more seamless together [10:52] Hiro Protagonist: +1 Adam [10:52] Adam Frisby: Eg, we have two inventory servers and half the users are on one, half on the other. [10:52] Adam Frisby: But yes, Strawberry has the ultimate long term solution - a web of tiny little grids, all alike. [10:52] Nebs AO v0.3: Philippe Debevec arrived [10:52] Sean Dague: how much load is actually down that inventory path? [10:52] Hiro Protagonist: or even, two inv servers and some of my inv is here and some there [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya sorta of fracture OSgrid into multiple hypergrids [10:52] Penny Lane: Yes, the HG model is distribution without the pain, so all you need on top of that is asset caching. [10:52] Adam Frisby: of course; I kind of envisage OSGrid being like the gmail of email -- it's there you can get an account easily; and it's convenient. [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: that act as 1 major grid [10:53] Strawberry Fride: change the terminology actually - grid could be standalone.... however it's worked [10:53] Strawberry Fride: that's our thinking on it - encourage splitting out and teleporting between [10:53] Adam Frisby: Sean: there's not much load right now - but it could become problematic because some of the indexes can get large. [10:53] Adam Frisby: Like the owner_key index could end up being problematic. [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: I'm a little surprised that's not possible today, behind the inventory service interface [10:54] Sean Dague: large indexes shouldn't really be an issue should they? [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, splitting things between two different dbs.......... [10:54] Adam Frisby: Justin/Sean: Oh it's quite doable today - it just requires some more software to be written for it [10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah ok :) [10:54]  Adam Frisby: Sean: large indexes can be a problem in cases. [10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: more of a solvable problem than runaway asset growth, I would have thought [10:55]  Adam Frisby: I'd say it's slightly less solvable; assets is already solved. [10:55]  Adam Frisby: We can look at things like distributed filesystems used by Hadoop, etc. and directly employ them. [10:55]  Penny Lane: Scalability isn't "just more software" though. You've got to have a scalable design, or more software won't prevent meltdown. [10:55]  Sean Dague: yeh. I'm also hoping to get an informix driver from that team in the next couple of months [10:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: assets: solved on a technical level but not a monetary level? I guess who cares about the money though... (shades of most web 2.0 companies) [10:56] Adam Frisby: Justin: for osgrid, yes. We've had good donations recently and we've got enough to keep us going for a while - which I'm really happy about. [10:56] Adam Frisby: But we're going to need to get donations increased for next year. [10:56] Adam Frisby: Since no doubt our load will be higher. [10:56] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.5 (Dev)        .9960  (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: yeah, that was a cool thing to see [10:56] Adam Frisby: I think OSGrid is beggining to get popular though [10:56] Adam Frisby: We've grown 25% in the last month alone. [10:56] Adam Frisby: Which is impressive given OSGrid is nearly 2. [10:57] Sean Dague: yeh, well the snowball starts small [10:57] Adam Frisby: New website has been a fun project too [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we did do quite a bit of promotion this month [10:57] Adam Frisby: if anyone hasnt taken a peek yet - go look at www.osgrid.org -- sign in using your avatar name & password [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt 1000+ people saw our booth ath SL6B [10:57] Adam Frisby: eg; http://www.osgrid.org/elgg/pg/profile/Adam.Frisby [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: which acutally [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yeah, it's not every day that something like this comes along :) [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: will be erased today [10:57]  Sean Dague: the twitter stream around opensim has gotten all kinds of fun as well [10:58]  Penny Lane: Time to think about a scalable design then. If the response to growth is "We'll need more donations", then it's not a scalable design, it's a centralized one. [10:58]  Sean Dague: I used to know everyone that put opensim in a tweet