Chat log from the meeting on 2019-02-26

[10:47] Ubit Umarov: glad to see Bill managed to upgrade the region, or you all be dead [10:47] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yeah because Ubrokeit [10:48] Ubit Umarov: i did not compile this region, you did [10:48] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Oh so that's how it is ... Ok I'm keeping an eye on you [10:48] Ubit Umarov: :) [10:49] Ubit Umarov: damm only a few hours and it did reached mantis [10:49] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yeap [10:50] Ubit Umarov: well should be that way all the time.. [10:50] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Certainly beats the likes of those just using it to complain about things [10:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though something is definitely up with 1.2.2 and textures are behaving a bit odd, they don't fully "resolve" and stay blurry [10:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Have not done a full config reset yet though [10:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you just reset the cache? [11:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Come to think of it have not done that yet either, though the textures do load, when I zoom in on them closely [11:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'll check after nuking the user settings directory and cache maybe that helps [11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There are quite a few changes in 1.2.2 that also could affect texture loading from an old cache version so I would go for that as the start [11:02] dj phil: Waves :) [11:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I can overlook such small things given how much smoother it runs compared to half the framerate over on FS [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I read a blog post that the latest FS has a lot of issues on uploading mesh to opensim [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: has anyone experienced that? [11:05] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: say there Gavin / I was looking for the download page for your Version of Kokua that works with Open Sim / all I could find was the Second Life specific one [11:05] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: not if you change the debug setting they put in just for us [11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for Linux or Windows? [11:06] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: Linux and Windows [11:06] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: both [11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Most folks just hop on Singu to upload from what I hear [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The Linux version is sort of frozen in time [11:06] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: ok then the Windows one [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Windows versions can be downloaded from here https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/ [11:06] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: thanks [11:07] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: "FSIgnoreClientsideMeshValidation", Treat the errors from Clientside mesh validation as warnings and do not block upload. This setting allows you to fall back on server side checks and per Grid quality control levels. [11:07] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I resolved most of the issues I was having uploading complex mesh by including a physics shape from file. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: hmm mb i should put more checks like that on region side uploads :p [11:09] Ubit Umarov: nahh have a simple one and some ppl told 0.9 was broken and placed on blogs how to remove the check grr [11:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: heh guilty :D [11:10] Ubit Umarov: no comments :p [11:10] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: People would rather have it easy, and have crap overloaded mesh than do it right the first time [11:11] Ubit Umarov: in that case broken mesh even [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I finally spent a few hours replacing about 280 meshes on the grid that you could walk through like butter on ubOde [11:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I recently looked into some of the courses given on professional level toward gamedesign and frankly the theme goes toward rapid-development instead of actually giving care to optimize models and tricks to reduce tris [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A certain lack of care and more talk about how to do things quickly, but dirty, because deadlines [11:13] Ubit Umarov: yeah, on games no one cares [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They care... once the games stop running at 60fps [11:13] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Yes but they have AAA rendering engines, we still have old OpenGL [11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: that may well be how they prototype maybe for clients but I assume the final product is optimised for the game engine. [11:14] Ubit Umarov: know a game that took 1 year to update some 10 maps ( more or less 10 regions) to changes on the engine [11:14] Ubit Umarov: 1km regions.. [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Also they don't usually put all their good tricks out in the open. Competitive element. [11:15] Ubit Umarov: editor tools are improving on automatic optimization... but still not full [11:16] Ubit Umarov: original 3d creator must know what he his doing [11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Frankly the notion to just stuff everything into Unity or UE with the end result being you hit the wall head on, because without direct source access only so much you can do to squeeze performance out of them [11:16] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: but first and foremost if we want better mesh we need a better render engine [11:16] Ubit Umarov: im playing with a beta version of a game.. [11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: and hammers, lots of hammers to beat users with [11:17] Ubit Umarov: parts of the map... SLOWWWW [11:17] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: Whats up with Vulcan as oppesed to Open GL ? [11:18] Ubit Umarov: ( a unity based game actually, but its optimization.. the previus release version was fine everywhere on map ) [11:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Each new api, like vulcan, will have the issue of min hardware level however [11:18] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yep [11:18] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Vulkan is the modern direct replacement for OpenGL, but not as direct as they make it seem [11:19] Ubit Umarov: guess directx12 is taking the lead now [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple deprecated OpenGL, so it is Metal2 there [11:19] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: dx11 at min [11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: You have to remember how many still run on systems not supporting that stuff [11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I know folks still running XP for crying out loud [11:20] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: then stop complaining about mesh [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Do they also run Imprudence on XP? [11:21] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: you can't have AAA quality, on a deprecated engine, and then complain you don't have AAA quality [11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I never did complain... [11:22] Ubit Umarov: ok, so what opensim news do you have today ? [11:22] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org refers to his blog post "fixing" the mesh upload [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Metro [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which version will they migrate to? [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean latest beta or something stable-ish? [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm awake. Phone call ran long. :P [11:23] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: master is more stable than the RC [11:24] Sheera Khan is back from reading the backlog [11:24] Ubit Umarov: think seem mention to 0.9.1 guess a hybrid [11:24] Sheera Khan: Metro will run some sort of 0.9.1.X where I don't know the X eXactly ^^ [11:25] Ubit Umarov: well x == 0 for now :p [11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so master++? [11:25] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Bigger question would be whether to stick with the defaults or switch to ubode Yengine [11:26] Sheera Khan: it is a relativly recent one but I don't know where Zak started the cherry picking :-( [11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right [11:26] Sheera Khan: well, my guess is Bullet and Xengine ^^ - just bc ... [11:27] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: we had 48 peeps at our load test on Saturday, and other than viewerside lag, everyone could move fine, and had no complaints, and it is based on current master [11:27] Ubit Umarov: nahh old master [11:28] Ubit Umarov: several days old! [11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe [11:28] Sheera Khan: well, there was a bit of traffic in the git lately ^^ [11:29] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: LOL [11:29] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: it is current now [11:29] Sheera Khan: so some hours could make a difference ^^ [11:29] Ubit Umarov: nahh ive a commit waiting [11:29] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: hope Ubrokeit, was not messing around in the code again, you know Ubit's evil twin [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :) [11:30] Ubit Umarov: will be called something like do terseUpdates the ugly way :p [11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the one singing "Oops I did it again..." ;-) [11:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It is good to see things being fixed and worked on though, can't deny that, even if the changes sometimes cause problems elsewhere [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well only made the agents ones.. need do prims [11:32] Ubit Umarov: but well class of changes i call "useless changes" [11:32] Ubit Umarov: no visible effects grrr [11:33] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: From going through mantis it is clear that there are still some things left untouched for quite some time. Getting those up to date or up to newer better standards can only help long term. Though I have to say I do feel dirty for bringing the old stuff from 2011 and so on back to the front [11:33] Ubit Umarov: well that combat module does need update [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Put on your hazmat gear first, Vincent. ;) [11:33] Ubit Umarov: ( why do we have it?? ) [11:34] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I don't really know what to do with the freeswitch tickets though, I can't test them so would be nice if someone could either confirm or resolve those [11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: A combat module would be useful to people making regions for roleplay. Probably was created for that purpose. [11:35] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: as far as freeswitch goes only a fairly old version of it will work with Opensim [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why is that Bill? [11:36] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: freeswitch changed a lot of things the biggest being only accepting secure connections [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Getting Freeswitch working was a bit of a pain at the best of times. [11:36] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: yep [11:37] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: and the old version will not even compile correctly on newer Linux without standing on your head chanting to the gods [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks grins [11:37] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That is what I keep running into [11:37] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: haha know that chant well Bill [11:38] Bill Blight: I got it running on ubuntu 18 but it blows up after a while [11:38] Bill Blight: doesn't like the newer system libs [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been several years since I last tried to use FS. [11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I found mumble easier as FreeSwitch seems you need to be a SIPS phone engineer to follow the instructions [11:39] Bill Blight: well yeah [11:40] Bill Blight: Freeswitch is a SIP/voIP phone system [11:40] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: mumbles audience seems more aimed at gamers and communities rather than engineers (read FreeSwitch) [11:40] Bill Blight: I worked for a CLEC/small telco, and we sold voip services so not a stranger to it [11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though that mumble integration has been in the works for how long now? [11:42] Bill Blight: Nobody seems to want to pick it up unless they get paid [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If/when that OS specific viewer is released let's hope it will include support for Whisper/Mumble. [11:43] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A sad, but understandable sentiment given how notoriously annoying dealing with comms is [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can always hope :-) [11:44] Bill Blight: well supposidly there is a working version out there, but they will not come off of it without money [11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It does surprise me somewhat that vivox is still able to keep to their pricing models given the high competition in the market of realtime comms. Just recently found even the big shots of Teamspeak getting a run for their money by a homebrew project of their protocol. [11:47] Bill Blight: yeah and Teamspeak sued them [11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There is a growing distaste among a certain group of people in regards to SaaS models, though the more average user seems generally thrilled about them moreso [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is not for nothing IBM sees private clouds as their biggest growth area [11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Clouds are like everywhere now [11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Even in places they make no sense [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed [11:52] Bill Blight: Cloud is a fancy way of saying someone else's computer, and brilliant marketing scam [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but both private and corporate users are getting increasingly tired of kleptomanic US agencies and corporations siphoning off their data [11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Still rather that than docker, the notion of just stuffing things into docker vs. proper implementation usually just results in a mess that runs poorly and crashes all the time. [11:55] Bill Blight: well, the users made clouds popular so no one to blame but themselves, you freely give your data to a cloud and while they should be honest about it, most people don't trust their next door neighbor , yet they trust a faceless corporation with their data .. [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, there was just a relatively big disclosure of a number of health related apps, that just sent off all the date to Facebook without telling anyone [11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such behavior is completely unacceptable [11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Convenience is a hell of a drug for many [11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: Who couldnt see that coming from a mile away [11:57] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: GDPR seems to make a bit more sense now [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: BTW I have removed anything Facebook from the viewer [11:58] Bill Blight: everyone should watch Idiocracy, that movie was meant as a comedy not a roadmap [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Another good reason for me to never get a Facebook account. [11:58] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though all that has one positive effect, handling of big data like that requires new structures and system OpenSim may benefit from given it too likes to create lots and lots of data [11:58] Bernd.Steinhardt @mevos.net:8002: Good decision * smiles [11:58] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: The sad thing Andrew is you will still show up in their data sets [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps. I'm all over the net. [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they build shadow profiles of everyone [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Is there any other OpenSim related topic someone wanted to discuss which hasn't come up yet? [11:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: nods @ Gavin its not as detailed as the sets they have on their users but still its creepy as hell though