Chat log from the meeting on 2021-06-08

 [11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Ada, Jamie, Gavin [11:04] Ubit Umarov: here he is :) [11:04] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew - all [11:04] Kayaker Magic: Andrew! [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Andrew [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Finally made it. TP from Hurliman failed so I had to relog and come here directly. [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:05] Ubit Umarov: well possible several knew and not that big news but Bill called our attention to https://opensim.vivox.com/opensim/ [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Now four people are just clouds to me today. [11:05] Ubit Umarov: that is vivox for opensim is going to terminate [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Right, had a mail from Maria of HGB [11:06] Kayaker Magic: I discovered some strange behaviors in texture animation this week, wrote a great script to demo it, but foolishly tried it on SL and discovered it fails in the same way there... [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, Jeff, Kayaker, and Vincent are just clouds to me. Perhaps a rebake is in order. [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, and welcome to the group Vincent. [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it did not exactly come as a suprise [11:06] Ubit Umarov: tex anim is mostly viewer side kayaker [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a few clouds too [11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Gavin, Jeff, Andrew and Kayaker are orange clouds to me [11:07] Bill Blight: Only Jeff is a cloud to me [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Has Ubit been messing with something in the code since last week? [11:07] Kayaker Magic: Everyone looks Fabulous to me! [11:07] Ubit Umarov: jamie was .. no more [11:07] Ubit Umarov: only jeff is for me [11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: avatar complexity not the proglem [11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: problem [11:08] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: rebaked, should be better now [11:08] Ubit Umarov: guess you lost a bone somewhere :) [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I can now see Jeff and Vincent. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: but worked [11:08] Ubit Umarov: u see all now [11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: doesn't matter [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby has popped in. [11:09] Ubit Umarov: i see [11:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Reason I am actually here for a change is due to vivox, because I have spent the last three months trying to kick off a project to replace vivox with something else, mainly driven by the lack of voice quality they provide with their service. Unfortunately it seems directly replacing their backend with something people can run themselves is quite the task and "fixing" the existing replacements is not a much lesser task either. [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker is the last cloud. [11:09] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: something is up today the region rezzed in from scratch today [11:09] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: for me [11:09] Ubit Umarov: well scenegate has a voice solution in devel [11:09] Bill Blight: LOL .. [11:10] Kayaker Magic: rebaking [11:10] Ubit Umarov: i had it promissed to opensim like 3 years ago ;) [11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: rebaked [11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose it went out the wrong gate [11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have talked to a few people that have knowledge of both OpenSim and viewerside, but so far tackling the tricky part is the whole voip stuff, because that's not easy, especially if we want to get feature parity with vivox in regards to audio modulation for positional audio [11:11] Ubit Umarov: on last oscc seems the issue was that some parts used aren't realy opensource [11:11] Ubit Umarov: ICE ?? [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, there is already a project under way to replace Vivox. [11:11] Kayaker Magic: The angry music, plus Ada's Dinkie reminds me of this video: Dinkies meet heavy metal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-mT9D4fdgQ [11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Most of the available libraries out there that have the required parts are not designed for the type of voice delivery OpenSim provides or they cannot be integrated with the channel system [11:11] Ubit Umarov: the music is not angry :p [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I can now see Kayaker. Thank you for the rebakes. I hope I'm also visible to everyone. [11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Not a Dinkie, am a Chompy. See teeshirt mwahaha [11:12] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya lov that video [11:12] Bill Blight: https://www.highfidelity.com/guides-getting-started-with-spatial-audio-api-documentation-high-fidelity [11:12] Ubit Umarov: Ahhh [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Now we need an overriding term for (Tiny or Dinky or Chompy) when we want to include them all. [11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The initial complication of directly stuffing the voice system into OpenSim seems too much as well, it also would have meant additional overhead on the region process, so that's out, but even as standalone app it's not an easy task [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: NodeJS project? [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think such a viewer exist [11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Both Dinkie and Chompy derived from anime Chibi, but Dinkie has a mesh head, Chompy not yet, and Chompy is Bakes on Mesh and Dinkie has to have special clothes. There are other mesh weefolk too. [11:14] Kayaker Magic: FiFi sound would be great, but won't that require starting yet another development project> [11:14] Bill Blight: the server type matters less than making a module that works with the viewers .. [11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: HiFi sound is great, the only think I liked about the platform actually [11:14] Ubit Umarov: AHH folks [11:14] Kayaker Magic: So "weefolk" is the all inclusive term? [11:15] Bill Blight: speedbump is a term also ... LOL .. j/k [11:15] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes, weefolk, so named by Snoots Dwagon in one of his blogs. Now a separate category, even, at Kitely Market. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I did a quick search and found a page that lists 17 alternatives to Vivox. Not sure whether any of them would be viable alternatives for use with OpenSim. [11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I looked at integrating with Teamspeak, Teaspeak, mumble and an sdl applayer for freeswitch, but while they all promise to provide the functionality needed for vivox in principal the actual inner workings are quite different and sadly not compatible in a drop-in replacement sense even considering a new layer to translate the calls and data [11:15] Ubit Umarov: one should mention that Ebbe Altberg, ll CEO did passed away [11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here we say kvinnfolk for women, mannfolk for men and just folk for all inclusive [11:16] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, he will be missed [11:16] Kayaker Magic: Some of the alternatives have incompatible licensing requirements. [11:16] Kayaker Magic: Or worse yet COSTS! (shudder) [11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That's another thing the licensing for Teamspeak, Teaspeak and a lot of others are not very becoming at all to the point that it would cost more in licenses than to pay for what vivox once offered as paid service [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I had no doubt that some of the entries on the list would cost $$. Licensing is another issue. [11:18] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: what about mumble ? there was a viewer plugin once upon a time [11:19] Bill Blight: yes but it required you swap out the slvoice.exe when in opensim or use the stock one with SL [11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The mumble setup that still exists out there is far from done and frankly would just barely offer what freeswitch does now as well [11:20] Ubit Umarov: Considering we sail on similar waters, this LL loss is a loss for all community [11:20] Kayaker Magic: Which voice system did MOSES use? [11:20] Bill Blight: vivox and freeswitch depending on who you talk to [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I've forgotten the name of the project mentioned during the past (couple) of OSCC events where a replacement voice system was mentioned. it is still ways off though. [11:21] Kayaker Magic: The one MOSES used did not have the green waves or the animated mouth movements, it was hard to tell who was talking. [11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I planned to send off an email to vivox asking them to donate at least the documentation of their protocol to the OpenSim project so we could potentially attempt to write a cleanroom implementation of their backend, but more than likely that will just be ignored [11:22] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: While the service is still up we have the opportunity to poke around however [11:22] Ubit Umarov: Well Rest in peace Ebby [11:22] Ubit Umarov: about mumble tnat is the scenegate voice solution [11:22] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes Rest in Peace Ebby. [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is Ebbe [11:22] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably the most Swedish name there is [11:23] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: if I could actually type today [11:23] Ubit Umarov: Ohh yes... Rest in peacew Ebbe [11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Reverse engineering is not exactly anything new and given we have both client and the vivox module at hand figuring out the protocol should not all that difficult. The complex part is handling the voice channels, which evidently there is only one or two libraries that could provide what is needed to interface with the protocol [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, annoying but at least people could talk with each other. [11:24] Ubit Umarov: i also don't remember the scenegate voice module name, but is is a updated mumble solution for opensim, including viewer side, at least scenegate side [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Scenegate! That's the name I couldn't remember. [11:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I now have three people looking into this, but in the end it comes down to providing some form of funding so any of them can justify sitting down for hours poking around in the protocol, which I am happy to provide to the best of my abilities [11:25] Kayaker Magic: Selby, can you chime it with a Scenegate status, and especially news about voice? [11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://www.slideshare.net/LisaLaxton/oscc19-vo-ip05 [11:27] Ubit Umarov: ahh yes EchoVoice, thx Selby.Evans [11:27] Ubit Umarov: it is a devl from IMA and Thales [11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I hear work is going on, but progress is slow -- [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the other name I couldn't remember. :P [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, If you want to work on a replacement to Vivox you might want to touch base with the people working on EchoVoice. [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sdWCluyMbY [11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: "This presentation from Infinite Metaverse Alliance® (IMA) and Thales Group discusses research and development progress towards improving open source code for: SceneGate and Future Viewer efforts, EchoVoice server and bridge applications, and a platform agnostic IMABox solution. The discussion is focused on the development work progress to provide modernized solutions advancing virtual world technologies for everyone. The work of IMA and Thales is in general directed toward broadening use of the Metaverse for Public, Education, Industry and Government sectors but the community as a whole benefits from open source." [11:30] Ubit Umarov: wel the voice solution is the part that matters here today :) [11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Frank Rulof Lisa Laxton Troy Schultz/Seth Nygard [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: indeed [11:31] Ubit Umarov: people seem to had some sucess using freeswitch also [11:31] Ubit Umarov: never tested it [11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I guess I can go on record to say that if someone does eventually come around with a solution as compensation for the inevitable hard work that likely involves I'm willing to help out with $2000 to get the ball rolling [11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Webworlds are using Freeswitch [11:32] Bill Blight: Other than loosing spacial audio freeswitch does work ... it has one added bonus, you can "dial into it", with a sip phone if you configure it as so .. [11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Likely more funding is needed though given the task is not trivial [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I did have success once (a long time ago) using FS. I just remember it was a real pita to get it configured correctly. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I hope the docs for setting it up have improved, or that the process is easier now than it used to be. [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It might be possible to build a telegram client into the viewer, but then telegram is a bit controversial with some folks [11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeah think original vivox as a SIP thing also.. [11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but at least NSA cannot decrypt it [11:33] Bill Blight: unless you are real familiar with SIP, freeswitch uses alien terms ... [11:33] Ubit Umarov: with extras [11:33] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Works fine, but no dropoff on distance, no lip movement [11:33] Ubit Umarov: i had idea lip was viewer side thing [11:34] Bill Blight: setup many a freeswitch PBX in the past, so I just use a big hammer .. [11:34] Ubit Umarov: the old muble module did it [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Bill [11:34] Ubit Umarov: i mean old mumble solutio did lips [11:34] Ubit Umarov: see kayaker not angry music at all [11:35] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: gotta have lips [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Is the lip movement and waves above an avatars head viewer side issues that just require the voice server to send start/stop messages? [11:35] Bill Blight: since freeswitch does not really know the location of your avatar, I don't think it produces the directed audio stream that the lip movements use [11:35] Bill Blight: location/relationship/position [11:35] Ubit Umarov: lips are a fake thinj [11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Correct me if I'm not up to date, but the vivox implementation currently doesn't support IM calls either? [11:36] Ubit Umarov: and been viewer side, viewer has all [11:36] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Webworlds have talking indicator. [11:36] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ya, viewer side. but need it [11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It doesn't for opensim [11:36] Ubit Umarov: it does support, but for some reason stopped working vincent.Sylvester [11:36] Bill Blight: Privcal is peer to peer, but I think currently does some type of authentication, so it is broken .. [11:36] Ubit Umarov: it is p2p actually [11:37] Ubit Umarov: well server did its part [11:37] Ubit Umarov: viewers.. not really [11:37] Bill Blight: it did not used to do anything to verify who was calling who, but I think I have stumbled on it when looking via the proxy [11:38] Bill Blight: a way to find out, would be drop in the old slvoice.exe and required libraries and see if they work with the new viewer .. [11:39] Ubit Umarov: one can replace new slvoice by old one i think [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, you can't [11:39] Ubit Umarov: the api changed? [11:39] Bill Blight: yeah but I think you need some libraries that were updated recently .. At one point you only needed the .exe but they changed too much since then [11:40] Ubit Umarov: i did the oposite once with no issues [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: encryption keys used by the lib changed [11:40] Bill Blight: changing may work for openism but break SL [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus api too [11:40] Ubit Umarov: wlel if the api changed.. then it will not worl [11:40] Ubit Umarov: all rest should [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the thing is SLVoice is a black box, so we don't know exactly what changed viewer side [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, perhaps that's not that big an issue with the separate of viewers in to SL only and OS only. [11:41] Bill Blight: only real hope for that is find an old combination of the exe and libraries that work together .. [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the encryption changed, so the old will not connect to their servers [11:41] Bill Blight: opensim server did not change [11:41] Ubit Umarov: servers for opensim where old servers [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they would still accept connections from the old Linux client, but not form macOS or Win [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even for opensim [11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Breaking open a binary isn't ideal to figure out what it does, but I don't think there is much inside the slvoice as is [11:43] Ubit Umarov: old slvoice had public spec [11:43] Ubit Umarov: even source? not sure [11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That was my plan anyways, open up as much of it as possible and then wireshark the voice comms to figure out the protocol [11:44] Ubit Umarov: and its api id visbie on viewer source [11:44] Ubit Umarov: and there is the old mumble slvoice.exe [11:44] Ubit Umarov: hmm somewhere [11:45] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: do we know how the viewer send position and voice activity to the plugin ? [11:45] Bill Blight: you can see what it takes to connect by looking at the freeswitch module and freeswitch config requirements , [11:45] Ubit Umarov: did they released their slvoice.exe source back then? [11:45] Ubit Umarov: it is on its source code jeff.Kelley [11:45] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Far as I understand it OpenSim handles signing the user onto the channel and then it directly interacts with the backend to send data and receive voice [11:45] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Been a while since I look that deep into it [11:46] Bill Blight: Last time I checked it is not real position but relative to each other .. [11:46] Ubit Umarov: you understand wrong vicent [11:46] Ubit Umarov: opensim only registers the user [11:46] Ubit Umarov: and handles voice channelrs [11:46] Ubit Umarov: nothing else [11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: By it I meant the viewer [11:46] Ubit Umarov: viewer does all the work [11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: vivox plugin is only a negotiator [11:46] Ubit Umarov: well slvoice most of it [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sl voice does the heavy lifting [11:47] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:47] Ubit Umarov: viewer only comands it [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer keeps track of the state machine for the voice channel(s) [11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So really going onto an empty region with two avatars both on voice and just recording the network traffic should tell you books worth on what it does [11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: From there is just understanding... all that [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except all the traffic is encrypted [11:48] Ubit Umarov: don't think old slvoice uses enc [11:49] Ubit Umarov: i do remember that was a scenegate thing [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: their backend will not support the old client [11:49] Ubit Umarov: on how vivox was not secure [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is why they switch it off [11:49] Ubit Umarov: the only backend for opensim, is the same since ever [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it MUST be encrypted or not connect [11:49] Ubit Umarov: they never did update it [11:50] Ubit Umarov: well and it is not :p [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they just obsolete it :-) [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ofc we should anyways thank vivox for keeping that free service for opensim all this years [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes [11:51] Ubit Umarov: So our official Thank you Vivox for your suport all this years [11:51] Kayaker Magic: Who are now owned by Unity.... [11:51] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: thanks Vivos for the fish [11:52] Bill Blight: yeah and I'm going to say, they might have kept it going for longer, if people did not bitch at them about the service level of their FREE service, like all the nasty emails they got when it went down over a DNS move ... [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: As I was reading through the announcement I was half expecting them to mention some sort of paid option for those users who want to pay something so they could continue to use Vivox. [11:52] Kayaker Magic: I know grids who would pay.... [11:52] Kayaker Magic: Doesn't Kitely do that now? [11:52] Ubit Umarov: Think some grids kept paying [11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That used to start at $100 a month for like 25 users [11:53] Bill Blight: yeah crazy .. [11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think Kitely pays [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think thre is anything keeping you to pay for a full fledged Vivox solution that can be built into the viewer the same way LL does [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is it cost $$$$ [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch. That would eliminate paid use by some of the smaller grids. [11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the small opensim grids cannot afford it [11:53] Ubit Umarov: that metions "free" [11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I actually have a contract from them they sent me years ago, but the terms in there are just horrible [11:54] Bill Blight: but they have a dev portal, and it is free for 10000 concurrent users, so all someone would have to do is engineer a new layer to lay between us and their free dev platform ... LOL, that is all .. LOL [11:54] Ubit Umarov: so possible payed solutions will keep working.. [11:54] Kayaker Magic: Lots of OpenSim users are just using Discord or something in the background while in-world. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: But.. current vivox code as nothing to do with the one viewers use [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean by that Ubiit? [11:54] Ubit Umarov: they are on, at least, version 5 [11:54] Bill Blight: Just don't mention Opensim when you sign up or they will refuse you a dev account .. [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, does Discord do voice? I've only used it with one group of people for text. [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Discord does voice, but someone bought them recently [11:55] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Discord does voice [11:55] Kayaker Magic: Yup, discord has voice chat. Sounds pretty good the few times I used it. [11:55] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: ans Discord is closed [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Microsoft bought them [11:55] Bill Blight: No discord was not sold, they decided to stay private [11:55] Bill Blight: no they didn't [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Never used Discord for voice. [11:56] Ubit Umarov: yeah i did mention opensim and they refused to give me access to the portal [11:56] Ubit Umarov: "nothing there useful for you" [11:56] Bill Blight: https://www.geekwire.com/2021/report-discord-ends-acquisition-talks-microsoft/ [11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Problem with discord is privacy still, Teamspeak at least does not collect data, but it's more difficult to use and the non profit licenses are not longer available [11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Teaspeak looked like a good option having reverse engineered Teamspeak, but it seems to just be a rather shady setup now [11:58] Bill Blight: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/25/discord-ceo-on-microsoft-bid-we-did-receive-a-lot-of-offers.html [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OK, then somone else will buy them :-) [11:59] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:59] Bill Blight: They are talking future IPO so not for a while I'm guessing, willing to bet they just used the offers to fuel their IPO offering .. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. If someone else has something they want to discuss we can put the discussion about voice support on hold for the moment. [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It might be possible to build a telegram client into the viewer, but then telegram is a bit controversial with some folks [11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( Gavin it thinking Apple.. shhh don't tell ) [11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'm still hoping that I can get some tracking in the direction of a drop-in replacement for vivox rather than having to break open the clientside of things as well, especially since it is not clear what viewer support for that will be in the end [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Aplle just announced iMessage fro Android [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or actually anyone with a web browser [12:00] Ubit Umarov: well freesw seems the direct replacement for now [12:00] Ubit Umarov: if it does really work and with its limitations.. [12:01] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: what should we do with iMessage, Gavin ? [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Is FS a "replacement"? It was around before Vivox so perhaps it is more of a "fallback option". :) [12:01] Kayaker Magic: I'm going to ignore iMessage, and anything else Apple does. [12:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: freeswitch is an option if you cannot live without voice, but it's like buying a small car when you used to drive a tank [12:02] Bill Blight: it works, but best with an older version, or someone needs to write a guide that people not familiar with it can follow ... I've made it work with newer versions, but I have no idea why it works .. LOL  Newer version of Freeswitch really wants SSL, so the module might need updated .. [12:02] Ubit Umarov: another person on our mail list reporting to had received a warning from Unity [12:02] Ubit Umarov: abotu the termination of free vivox [12:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I got a bunch of mails from them as well since I kept signing up for new voice accounts over the years heh [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The announcement already mentioned dropping support for Unity. [12:03] Bill Blight: Unity owns Vivox, so expected this much sooner [12:04] Ubit Umarov: they do offer a free voice solution, for new Unity games :p [12:04] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Unity is cutting old stuff left and right trying to stay in the game from what it seems [12:04] Ubit Umarov: until they reach 5000 sales or so.. [12:05] Bill Blight: yes that is what I was saying earlier, the offer a free dev portal and free service for voice, and an SDK ... [12:05] Ubit Umarov: they have similar free lic for the entire engine [12:05] Bill Blight: but seriously don't mention opensim when you sign up or they will deny you [12:05] Ubit Umarov: until you reach X sales.. it is free [12:05] Ubit Umarov: 2 late.. i already did.. like 3 times [12:05] Ubit Umarov: :p [12:05] Bill Blight: it is like 10000 concurrent users [12:06] Ubit Umarov: im on their black lists i guess [12:06] Bill Blight: yeah they really don't want to support opensim at all ... Vivox didn't and now they REALLY DON'T want to .. [12:06] Ubit Umarov: it is not easy to see how to make $ from opensim [12:06] Ubit Umarov: so the don't want it [12:07] Kayaker Magic: i tried to get a vivox account for my OSGrid regions, got rejected 4 times, but a year later they gave me an account when I asked for the 5th time. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: wel wonder if anything did happen to make them dislike us, then the $ model [12:07] Ubit Umarov: than.. [12:08] Bill Blight: well they had their pricing setup like all opensim users had Linden Lab money ... [12:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Which is strange given I would suspect grids would have no problem paying for service if it wasn't $100 monthly and more in line with a dollar per user or something, which given the user numbers would probably been a good grand or two a month [12:08] Ubit Umarov: Bill many game engines just refused any lic, fi they seen no $ on your game project.. [12:09] Ubit Umarov: some did demand rights to see all your firm accounts.. [12:09] Ubit Umarov: insane [12:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'd have no issue paying for it, but frankly I suspect the quality wouldn't change compared to the free service which then just really isn't worth it at all [12:09] Bill Blight: well I actually chatted with one of the Vivox guys, right before they got bought, and on that phone call, he told me, that the devs hated opensim, because people complained incessantly about a free service [12:10] Ubit Umarov: well there is that.. ppl don't understand what a free service is [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the devs hate it, just imagine what management do [12:10] Ubit Umarov: and demand full premium support :) [12:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Their terms of service, lack of voice quality and sometimes weeks to respond I am not surprised it rubbed people the wrong way [12:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That demand is always there, how you react to it defines you, if the reaction is more resentment instead of seeing the business opportunity that present itself there [12:12] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Make em pay for support why not, plenty would I'd imagine [12:13] Ubit Umarov: well we had voice for free for years [12:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well now that's good advice into the wind anyways [12:13] Ubit Umarov: i only used it at oscc .. details :) [12:14] Ubit Umarov: fun vivox works fine at sl, but is a total fail at world of tanks [12:14] Ubit Umarov: there all use discord now [12:14] Ubit Umarov: or teamspeak bf discord [12:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A result of stagnating development more than anything, they are probably now being restructured internally [12:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Trying to get back into the game they once dominated [12:15] Ubit Umarov: as i said current vivox is very diferent [12:15] Ubit Umarov: they did change it a lot [12:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Teamspeak used to not have the cash to buyout the teamspeak.com domain and now look where they are [12:16] Ubit Umarov: well and there is other issue [12:16] Ubit Umarov: any other solution like mumble or freesw means girds need to run the voice servers [12:16] Ubit Umarov: that is extra cost and bandwidth [12:16] Ubit Umarov: and low latency network [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: What's wrong with a grid running the voice server for themself? It means not relying on someone else. [12:17] Ubit Umarov: i just said.. :p [12:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well now with hardware shortage sure, but normally such is cost of doing business as they say [12:17] Ubit Umarov: low latency networking [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My viewer was out a few days ago with an updated Windows version including an updated slvoice library and with the same rendering updates as the Mac viewer- https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/ [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, well someone will incur the cost of extra bandwidth. [12:18] Ubit Umarov: when some grids can't even handle regions trafic [12:18] Ubit Umarov: add voice to that.. [12:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Don't you like watching explosions hehe [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If they can't handle region traffic they need better servers. [12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or fatter pipe [12:20] Ubit Umarov: in this long run, really not sure if free voice for opensim was that good [12:20] Ubit Umarov: possible a better pricing would had been better [12:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: More reasonable pricing, better quality, proper privacy terms of service would have been a guaranteed seller I'm sure [12:21] Ubit Umarov: vivox devs would at least see some $ getting in [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:22] Ubit Umarov: with the free offering.. who payed ( but a few that did ) [12:22] Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been enabled. [12:22] Kayaker Magic: Does that mean the end of the meeting? [12:22] Ubit Umarov: nice script error [12:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye all [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It wasn't me. [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby. [12:23] Ubit Umarov: err enabled now? [12:23] Ubit Umarov: lol [12:23] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bye everyone! [12:23] Ubit Umarov: cya selby [12:23] Kayaker Magic: Bye all! [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the hour and a half mark. About time to wrap up todays meeting. [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last quick(?) comments (or questions) for today? [12:23] Jeff.Kelley @grid.pescadoo.net:9000: bye everybody [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Jeff. [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tested the viewers on macOS 12 beta today - did not go so well [12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it is still early beta days [12:24] Ubit Umarov: oops :) [12:25] Ubit Umarov: well rl also calls me [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week. [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL viewer bombed out with end of support for PY 2.7 [12:25] Ubit Umarov: cya here and there