Chat log from the meeting on 2012-12-11

 [11:09] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:09] Connected [11:09] Taarna Welles is Online [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:09] Vivian Klees: hi Justin [11:09] Sarah Kline: hi Justin [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hey guys [11:10] Arielle Popstar: Hi Justin [11:10] Tiffany Magic: Hello Justin.... nice outfit. *grin* [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: we did the very first BulletSim load test this morning [11:10] logger sewell: Hi all [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: little bit of a rocky start, but I think Robert got some good data none the less [11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Ohh, up to load testing now? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: maybe next week will go a little better [11:11] Arielle Popstar: oh Justin changed the color of his long underwear :) [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: not really load testing, more like physics testing [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: testing vehicles and various aspects of physics functionality [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: we'll be doing it every tuesday morning [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the sim is "BulletSim" here at OSgrid [11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:11]  OtakuMegane Desu: Either way, sounds like progress :) [11:12] Sarah Kline: it is...my things finally move around [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: Ya bulletsim is always getting better [11:13] Arielle Popstar: its been getting a lot of love lately [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but as todays test shows, still needs to improve a bit, but thats what these tests are all about [11:13] Robert Adams: I have soooooo many great crash dumps to dig through :) [11:13]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well c ertainly, it would need more work. Physics engines are not simple to begin with, much less integrating them into another system. [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: nice Robert [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: also shows it's a hugely complicated area :) [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: crash dumps eh? :) [11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: But it's already looking quite good. [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: is that maybe why it was running a bit slow at times? [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: were you doing a profile or something? [11:15]  BlueWall Slade is Offline [11:15]  BlueWall Slade is Online [11:15]  Robert Adams: the BulletSim sandboxes log a lot of extra, detailed data about anything physical [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ok [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i guess that could reduce performance a bit [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: my catapult tests went pretty good [11:16]  Robert Adams: probably a little... I have log write flushing turned on to better catch crashes [11:16]  Vivian Klees: yeah he rolled like he was in a barrel [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: I need to add some more stuff to the physics arena [11:17]  Robert Adams: just like ODE, BulletSim takes the avatar out of the physical world when it sits on something [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe a chain and a catapult test [11:17] Robert Adams: adding a physical avatar on sit objects is on my todo list... but hard to do without animations on the server [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Physical sitting avatar would be interesting [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: they dont do that in SL i dont think [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope [11:19] Arielle Popstar: Ubit did that on Ode didnt he? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I doubt it, the way the avatar capsule is in ODE, it probably wouldnt work well [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it would collide as if you were standing up [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: even when you were sitting and if the sit animation moved you away from the capusle it would get even more odd [11:21] Robert Adams: agreed... OpenSim has been using just a pill shaped capsule to approximate the avatar shape [11:21] Tiffany Magic: Dummy question here (my speciality)... if it doesn't work in ODE or in Bulletsim, is it actually the physics engine or is it something else? [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: Something else nebadon. do you see more memory usegae after a few days on simulator. it where pretty stable for me for a while. but this days i see its going up. can be because visitors. but it looks like it dont go down [11:22] Robert Adams: it doesn't bend... it's only resized to the avatar size [11:22] BlueWall Slade: $#%# [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the 3rd option is poor viewer design Tiffany [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:22] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: animations were never designed to interact with physics [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: maby its dropping a little bit :O [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried my flying sleigh from SL today. It doesn't fly well in OS in either ODE or Bullet [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is to do that correctly, it would require viewer overhaul [11:23] Tiffany Magic: Ok... why does it work on Avination and SL then? [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: An object is an object to the physics engine. By itself it can't distinguish an avatar from a plywood block. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it really doesnt [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: when you animate and avatar in Avination or SL they are phantom [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: of course if your sitting on a physical vehicle you then become part of the vehicle itself, but the avatar does not actually collide [11:24] Arielle Popstar: if [11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: animated avatra would give plenty of collisions [11:24] Arielle Popstar: it becomes part of the vehicle why does it rubber band? [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: it would be funny if it wasn't turned to phantom. Dance too close to a wall, or other object, smack with a hand or arm while spinning around and see the object move or fall over. :-) [11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: tl;dr version: animations don't work well with physics because LL made it that way so many years ago. :P [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: sure, but what I mean is, if the animation moves the avatar away from the center point of the capsule [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: which a lot of animations do [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: the avatar physics do not follow the animation [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: look at avatars that dance [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: that move away from the pose ball [11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: how far are verhicles now robert ? [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: you can walk right through them [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: but if the dance ball is not phantom you would collide with it [11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: The avatar itself never moves. Kind of like it turns invisible and a hologram follows the animation. [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: right [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Vehicles are not quite as good as ODE yet [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: my racer works pretty good [11:27] Arielle Popstar: does it crash physics engine when hitting sim borders? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: turning was way to fast [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: it probably can Arielle [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: though I dont recall crashing it in that manner myself [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: robert, its this caps that triggered my scanner. c136855f-d4d0-421d-a9ec-fc239c9ed2e80000 [11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Sim borders seem to crash the object more than the physics :) [11:28]  Mike Kayaker: I've found that just moving prims non-physically can mess up the whole sim, don't blaim physics for that. [11:28]  Mike Kayaker: across the edges i mean [11:29]  OtakuMegane Desu: Moving them by script or with the viewer tools? [11:29]  Mike Kayaker: script [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: 1 problem ii have sometimes with ode. if a verhicle start to get crazy. the script get a bit deaf or the verhicle dont want to turn back to solid. you need to be quick jump in edit and disable physics. then take it back to invenmtory and rezz it again. but can have maby code bug in my lsl script to [11:30]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, that's a whole other mess happening there. Not a new issue either. [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: uhh mike ?? that i hav enot really seen with normal prims [11:31]  Mike Kayaker: I used to blame physics for crashing the sim, but it is just an easy way to run proms off the edge, and then the sim goes crazy [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, bugs and bugs and bugs [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: and now xmas is coming :) [11:32]  Mike Kayaker: While searching for lost prims, I found just walking my avatar off the edge (with no sim on the other side) and the FPS numbers will start to fall. As low as 13 [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: i shoot so many times prims of the edge when the are physics are in the state between it. nothing happens. once i shot it 5 sims coordinates far [11:32]  Arielle Popstar: bugs seem circular. here for a while then fixed then come back next year [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: Mike, linux ? [11:32]  OtakuMegane Desu: You shouldn't be able to walk off the edge to begin with [11:32]  Mike Kayaker: Tiffany's sims, Windows I think [11:33]  Tiffany Magic: Yes, Windows. [11:33]  Mike Kayaker: But if you try, things start to get funny [11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: mike: fps numbers in the viewer? [11:33]  OtakuMegane Desu: Especially in larger applications, it can often take many bug fixes to actually find the root problem. [11:33] Mike Kayaker: Seems to get worse as you have more prims haning off the edge [11:33] Mike Kayaker: Yes, the FPS numbers for sim and physics both go down [11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: You end up fixing a lot of things that are just symptoms, so it comes back if something else is changed [11:34] Mike Kayaker: Even though I have NO physical objects on the sim, except for the avatar [11:34] Arielle Popstar: been seeing the t-pose again lately [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Wow, I haven't seen that in so long I forgot about it. [11:35] Mike Kayaker: I'll try to write something that causes the problem and submit a mantis. [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: okay thanks. I know you've got quite a few bug reports out there - hope to look at them at some point [11:36] Mike Kayaker: LOL [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: xmas and other problems are displacing everything atm [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: not that xmas is really a 'problem' [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:36] Mike Kayaker: tell me about it.. [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks is planning to do wrapping of Christmas presents today. Haven't gotten to it yet. [11:37] Mike Kayaker: So soon? [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: My mother had done all her wrapping almost a week ago. [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't want to leave it to last minute like often happens with last few gifts. [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Once its done, I can spend more time with grid stuff. [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm working on attachments to group notices. [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I have it saving the attachment data to the database and the attachment data is retrieved. Problem is somewhere after it makes the call to send the notice to the viewer, the binary bucket data is lost. [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: You can't view data from past notices that have attachments and new notices won't send if there is an attachment. [11:39] Vivian Klees: a suggestion to not have a dev meeting the weeks of xmas and new years [11:39] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine it might be best to skip the one on xmas day itself : [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: unless ppl are really mad keen [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I get lost in the code finding what it call the routine to send the IM data to the viewer. [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I won't be here [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, the 25th is Tuesday? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:40] Vivian Klees: yes [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I'm not likely to be here. [11:40] Arielle Popstar: put it to the net day [11:40] BlueWall Slade: so it new years [11:40] Arielle Popstar: next^ [11:40] BlueWall Slade: is [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though I am more liekly to be around on new year's day [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: heh wow how odd [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: i like to go to the mall on boxing day and see just how bad the crowds are at the local mall. [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: so 25 and 1 sounds anyway not useable for dev meetings :) [11:41]  Tiffany Magic: Anyone have a solution to what Andrew is addressing on the attachments to notices issue? [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think 1 is okay myself [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have never looked at the area - I don't know why the binary bucket data would get null'd [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: other things that use the binary bucket are fine afik [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: afaikl [11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: Tiffany, I was stating how far i've gotten. help will have to come after I post the experimental code (unless someone knows where the code goes to do the IM sending of the notices) [11:42]  BlueWall Slade: I will need to go in a sec... [11:42]  Mike Kayaker: Will there be more bulletsim office days this month? When is the next one? [11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: why a binary bucket ? you cant use on;ly the uuiid to retrive the notice attachment ? [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, the bucket is either getting nulled or there is some sort of error parsing it. [11:42] BlueWall Slade: wanted to say something about the windows atm [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: binary bucket is a container used by the viewer for extra data - we cannot change this [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: sure. I'm curious why you reinsted libopenjpeg into bin/ [11:42] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: ok.. [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: In one area of the code, SendInstantMessage is expecting a base64 coded bucket where I have either binary or hex coded string. [11:43] BlueWall Slade: there is a lib that I'm having to replace in a utility [11:43] Teravus Ousley: Hello Dahlia [11:43] BlueWall Slade: JCC, that is used by libomv and it is hard coded [11:43] Basil Sosides: hello, good Afternoon [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks wonders why convetion to hex coded string has to stick in newlines every 16 bytes. [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: you talking about group chat messages? [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: s/convetion/conversion/ [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: how did you hit thte problem? It should be handled fine by the OpenMetaverse.dll.config [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: it was strange Justin [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but once that file was removed stuff broke [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: the thing is .config [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: is only for mono [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I was talking about attachments to group notices. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: .net ignores that file [11:44] BlueWall Slade: yes, it doesn't work on windows [11:44] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.5 Dev          acc01bb: 2012-12-06 01:12:12 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:44] BlueWall Slade: and the dll is only used by windows [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: also the .config has nothing about windows in it [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: .net doesn't ignore it but it's true the dllmap stuff will be ignored yb windows [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmmmm [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: only !windows [11:45] BlueWall Slade: and mono-addins slipped in a dependancy that is GPL [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm really surprised it hasn't been noticed until now since that file has been moved for a loong time [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: speaking of that file, i had to fix it about a week ago [11:45] BlueWall Slade: I'm needing to replace that [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i don't know if you noticed what i did [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but openjpeg was not working on 64 bit OSX [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: uhhh, that's bizarre [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we were referencing wrong dylib [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: one that didnt even exist [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I'm using that Ionic Zip and $%$^#$% [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I did see that - possibly I got something wrong when I had to change the library with lkalif's built version [11:46] BlueWall Slade: they use Windows path separaters for everything [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: it would be nice if you could disable the crash dialog windows give if opensim crash. yes you can disable it in windows. but on opensim would be handy to for soem tools [11:46] BlueWall Slade: I plan to look at making that dll thing after I get this zip [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: Bluewall. you need a new box with #$@ :) [11:47] BlueWall Slade: it's a convoluted and long story [11:47]  BlueWall Slade: lol yeah [11:47]  BlueWall Slade: like I need a hole in the head [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: I must admit I'm confused - is there are link describing what haas happened with mono.addins? [11:47]  BlueWall Slade: a cross platform development system that isn't cross platform [11:47]  BlueWall Slade: lol [11:48]  BlueWall Slade: will you be in irc later this evening? [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though maybe not for long [11:48]  BlueWall Slade: it has to do with that GPL file being distributed in mono... [11:48]  beatrice briand: bonsoir [11:48]  BlueWall Slade: so, windows doesn't have it [11:49]  BlueWall Slade: it is a compression library [11:49]  BlueWall Slade: this Ionic uses "\" for the path separator [11:49]  BlueWall Slade: doesn't try to get the platform - lol [11:49]  BlueWall Slade: cross platform [11:49] BlueWall Slade: pfffft [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: and mono.addins references this library? [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: links? [11:49] BlueWall Slade: the Mono.Addins.Setup does [11:50] BlueWall Slade: << that is what does the magic w/plugins [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: but wouldn't a link made mono.addins itself gpl? [11:50] BlueWall Slade: I have forked it [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: have probuild working on it, etc. [11:50]  BlueWall Slade: getting GPL out [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: why can't we simply ship the gpl library? mono.addins is still x1 right? [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: x11 licensed [11:51] BlueWall Slade: MIT [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: according to GPL you can not even link in BSD if i recall what we read yesterday [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if your module is dependant on it [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: which it is [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: its reliant on ziplib [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: or whatever its called [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: which would mean that mono.addins.setup would have to be gpl - yet it isn't [11:52]  BlueWall Slade: that is what I didn't understand [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: the GPL license is in the mono repo [11:52] BlueWall Slade: also.... [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: so what? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya it sort of doesnt make any sense [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: diva explained it though [11:52] BlueWall Slade: since this library is shipped with mono, I didn't have any indication it was used [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: what kind of compression do you need? I think I added another compression library when I added the mesh physics code [11:52] BlueWall Slade: it just worked [11:52] BlueWall Slade: that one doesn't do files [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I thought it did [11:53] BlueWall Slade: but, then this one doesn't write them because of the da author [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is, if we use a forked version of mono.addins.setup that's potentially a huge pita both now and down the line [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: well have to add a little code to do files [11:53] BlueWall Slade: well, I think it only provides the compression [11:53] BlueWall Slade: need to open streams [11:54] BlueWall Slade: I will have another look at it since I hit a wall on this one [11:54] Taarna Welles is Offline [11:54] BlueWall Slade: becuase I'll need to do that anyway [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: actually maybe it only does gzip [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: but files shouldnt be a problem [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: .net itself contains code to handle gzip [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: that's what the archiver code uses [11:55] BlueWall Slade: this is using pure zip [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: yes but there was a compatability problem with the .net implementation [11:55] BlueWall Slade: I need to take off for a few... [11:55] BlueWall Slade: I will be back, then in IRC [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:55]  Dahlia Trimble: laterz :) [11:55]  BlueWall Slade: I have most of it worked out [11:55]  sim core: :-J [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: if you use windows and hit an error, bear with me just a bit till I get this worked out [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: WIP [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6457 [11:56]  BlueWall Slade: laterz... [11:56]  sim core: Cu, bluewall [11:56]  Sarah Kline: bye [11:56]  Mike Kayaker whispers: Thanks bluewall! [11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: your right robert or nebadon. that whole domain is tagged as bad. [11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: i only hit sometimes a crash bluewall [12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: *crickets* [12:00]  Tiffany Magic: New topic: Does anyone have any idea as to why we can't seem to pass items or files to other avatars across simlines? [12:00]  Vivian Klees: any of them on a mac? [12:00]  Tiffany Magic: No [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: why do i not see a git version in that mantis ? [12:01] Mike Kayaker: ?mac? I run Firestorm on a Mac? [12:01] Basil Sosides: i have the new OpenSim version, on .net (Win7), no Problems !!! [12:01] Vivian Klees: the regions [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: Tiffany. it happens sometimes. but the last time it seems to happen pretty much. not sure if it dotn work at all. [12:01] Vivian Klees: I only get that from one person who runs her regions on a mac [12:02] Sarah Kline: bye all [12:02] Vivian Klees: bye Sarah [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: i run windows. and eryn could not give me long distance object. same for tiffany. it failed to [12:02] sim core: :-J Cu, Sarah and everyone [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: bye sarah [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: see you sarah [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: was item passing over simulator borders working before? [12:03] Tiffany Magic: Any idea how to fix it? [12:03] Tiffany Magic: It was working way back in version 7.1 [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: drop it on their profile, or maybe in IM window [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: to send something accross a sim border [12:04] Tiffany Magic: We upgraded to 7.4... problem was there.... rolled back to 7.3... problem is still there. [12:04] Tiffany Magic: Doesn't work either way, Nebadon. [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: Yes justin, it worked in the past. but in rare case it failed. but it seems to get worse [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: it should, I know ive sent people objects that were not in same sim as me [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: occaisionally it fails [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: and says something about cant find object [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: i did profile drop nebadon [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: or something [12:05] Cuteulala Artis: can i make a comment :P [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: sure [12:05] Tiffany Magic: It works occasionally.... but, more times than not, it doesn't. [12:06]  Cuteulala Artis: it apears i figured out why we shake on child prims [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: in second life no matter were we sit and were a sit target is we always sit on the root prim [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: right [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi cute [12:06] Mike Kayaker: mantis! mantis! [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we sort of knew that Cuteulala [12:06] Cuteulala Artis: but in osgrid we are sitting on the child prims [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: the link order of the avatar is wrong [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think it really is a matter of root or child [12:07] Cuteulala Artis: really need focus on fixing that so i can make awesome content for osgrid :P [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm - how do you know one always sit on the root prim? [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: if you have more than 1 avatar not everyone can be root [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its more about the order [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: we have something out of order [12:07] Cuteulala Artis: Most of the things i make will work but not as expected [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: however yes a single avatar should be root [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: cute: you depend on link order? [12:07] Cuteulala Artis: not all the time [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: I thought a sitting avatar was a child of the root prim [12:07] Mike Kayaker: I have lots of SL content that fails on OSGrid because of seated avatar issues [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant remember exactly [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: Justin. is there aroot prim if youuse 10 sits in a bus ? [12:08] Cuteulala Artis: i think we need to focus on the bugs that are to common and not whats under the hood to much :P [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: I think our problem is more about the order [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: every sit would be child for me [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its the same reason that if you sit on a child prim in a linkset [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: the mouselook camera goes to root prim [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and not the avatar [12:08] Cuteulala Artis: two major bugs that puts osgrid bellow is teraforming and sitting issues [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: but if you sit on root prim its ok [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why it occasionally works [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: thats more a problem nebadon, the avatar cam [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: is this all about link ordering? [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: in opensim the avatar can really only sit on the root prim [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: I think so [12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: ricra: I can't understand you [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: when an avatar sits it becomes part of the linkset [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and the viewer expects it to be in a specific order [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: there is only one level of grouping in code, child prims cant have children [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: Justin, sit on prim and go into mouselook [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: do we know what the exepcted order is? [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: Osgird has that issue since it started i was just wondering why it hasent been addressed yet since it is literly a 100% common bug lol [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: if you do that in linked sit you cam to the root prim. [12:10] Mike Kayaker: I have a mantis, 6421, about an avatar sit issue [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: because nobodyt ever filed a mantis and/or nobody has got around to fixing [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: whats a mantis [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: there are probably a bunch of mantis [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: rira: yes, I know that [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: cause id gladly fill one out lol [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: and its always been a problem [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its never worked right here, not ever [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: well [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: Aurora has finaly gotten it right [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but I wasn't aware this might be at base a link order issue [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: there are other issues with avatar sitting too [12:10] Cuteulala Artis: perhaps ask revvy [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I thought it was some protocol message problem [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: take this couch for instance [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: its not linked [12:11] Basil Sosides: lol, iknow that Problem [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: because if i link it, and everyone sat on it [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: things get really wierd [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: like when you stand up [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: you stand at the root prim [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what cushion your on [12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: cutuela mantis is bug report syste. http://opensimulator.org/mantis/my_view_page.php [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: sitting on prims in OpenSimulator, is broken in many ways when compared to SL [12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so basically opensimulator isn't matching the viewer expectations regarding link ordering [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: even sitting on a single cube is not anything like SL [12:12]  Cuteulala Artis: i really have high hopes for a fix to that as i really want to start bringing in content that will needs that sitting bug fixed for it to be awesome lol [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: do we know what the order should be? [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: cute: don't hold your breath [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: link ordering? why would that matter? [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya I have been barking up this tree for a long time [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: no its not the linkset order itself [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its the order once the avatar sits [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its wrong [12:12] Cuteulala Artis: then money will get it fixed right? [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: the viewer should move all children of a root since it renders them relative to the root [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: once an avatar is added to a linkset, ie sit [12:12] Cuteulala Artis: Money can fix bugs! [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: its easy to test [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: a lot of money can fix bugs. a little bit of money will do nothing [12:13] Mike Kayaker: I don't even count on seated avatar order, track them down each time, and still things don't work [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just interested in a description of the order [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I know the problem exists [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: e.g. if there are three prims root-2-3 [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and avatar sits on 2 [12:13] Cuteulala Artis: I so cant wait for that sititng bug to die lol [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: what is the new link order? [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: stand up from couch please [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: sit on this couch [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: and then go to mouse look [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: you will see the camera goes to root prim [12:14] Cuteulala Artis: i see behind it on floor [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: yup. terrible with verhicles [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: becaue your not sitting on root prim [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but [12:14] Mike Kayaker: Justin, in SL the avatar is always the last in the link order after a sit. It is in the wiki [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: if i relink this couch and make the cushion your sitting on root [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it works [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: so root-2-3-avatar(4)? [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: and this is the problem [12:15] Cuteulala Artis: who fixes this kind of stuff whos the person [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: I beleive its the same reason the camera and avatar bounce [12:15] Mike Kayaker: that is what the wiki says [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: if your say sitting on a child prim [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: you will notice if the avatar sits on root prim [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: bouncing disappears [12:15] Allen Firethorn is Online [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: sit on child prim it bounces and jerks around like nuts [12:15] Cuteulala Artis: So maby a temp fix is to create a multi sittting target for the root prim [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i beleive all these problems stem from the same issue [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that would work probably yes [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: we would need to test it though [12:16] Cuteulala Artis: hmmmm [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: but [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: there would still be 1 central mouse look location [12:16] Cuteulala Artis: alright ill program a multi target script for the root and see how it goes [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it would only fix the jerky behavior [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: not the mouselook [12:16] Cuteulala Artis: Beef jerky is good Osjerky not so good [12:16] Mike Kayaker: fixing jerky would be good! [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: mouselook will go to the exact center of the root prim [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: the reason it jerks is because the viewer is getting to sets of directions i beleive when the avatar is on the child prim [12:17] Cuteulala Artis: we cant let thoes peeps beet us in these bugs lmao [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: so its constantly bouncing between the avatar and the root prim [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: like its trying to fight for priority or something [12:17] Mike Kayaker: There are some nice things you can do with llLinkSitTarget that don't work here because of the avatar sitting problem. [12:17] Cuteulala Artis: Who works on this kind of bug person name? [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: I honestly have no idea what the real problem is [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: these are just 6 years of observing this same problem [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: since day 1 [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its always worked this way [12:18] Tiffany Magic: Or not worked. [12:18] Cuteulala Artis: As a scriptor i balieve the issue is when a sit target is places in a child we sit on that child when we sapose to sit on the root no matter were the target is [12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: right [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: and thats what I mean about order being wrong [12:18] Basil Sosides: but llLinkSetPrimParams works good [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: has nothing to do with the linkset itselfs order [12:18] Robert Adams: it's teh way my grandfather did it, it's the way my father did it, and by gosh.... oh, and get off my lawn [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: just the order we place the avatar once it becomes part of a linkset [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol Robert [12:19] Mike Kayaker: Using llLinkAvatarOnSitTarget, I wrote a single script that can sit 100 avatars on a build with only one script and one set of animations. Don't work here. [12:19] Tiffany Magic: lol [12:19] Cuteulala Artis: Anyone tell me the name of the person who fixes this kind of bugs? [12:19] Cuteulala Artis: for osgrid [12:19] Richardus Raymaker: We got used to the porblem nebadon. so we wait until there's more time to look at it. the last yeasr other things where important with opensim [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: heh maybe you can tell me once you find out :P [12:19] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:19] Cuteulala Artis: well [12:19] Cuteulala Artis: im willing to invest some money in a fix for this [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: there are many people capable of fixing these kinds of issues [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: this drives me CRAZY [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: the real problem is we don't fully understand whats wrong [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not like LL documents all this stuff [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: well i will saythat [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: when i made tetris [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: and linked it right [12:20] Robert Adams: not like there is a paid team being assigned to bugs (although, any renumeration would be welcome) [12:20] Cuteulala Artis: the game had blocks in the wrong places [12:20] Mike Kayaker: I also vote for going CRAZY because of this sitting problem. [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: there is another issue [12:21] Basil Sosides: ?¸.•* LoL *•.¸? [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: thats not as apparant with this small couch [12:21] Cuteulala Artis: haha [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: you see that [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: watch me [12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: im sitting [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: but watch where i stand up [12:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's certainly true that opensim sends the viewer information that it's sitting on a particular prim, and that prim can be a child prim [12:21] Nebadon Izumi makes loud error buzzing sound noises with mouth [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: if it's true that child prims should never be 'sat' on, then that has some siginificant implications in the code [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: wouldn't be a simple bugfix [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not as obvious with this small couch [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but with the big moon couch everyone is sitting on [12:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: cute: nobody is specifically in charge of fixing these kinds of bugs - people tend to fix the bugs they wan tto fix because of all kinds of reasons [12:22] Cuteulala Artis: i am gonna create a multi target script on a root prim and see if we sit right i can also guide the camera using each target and see [12:22] Richardus Raymaker: scale it up.. ! :) [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: you literally go flying across the room [12:22]  Mike Kayaker: I feared it would not be simple... [12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: to other side [12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: very strange [12:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: cute: it's probably the kind of thing I would get to eventually but I am overloaded at the moment and xmas is squeezing everythign [12:22]  Robert Adams: MIke, you said sitting was documented on a wiki page... what's the URL? [12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: another one thats drove me nuts for long time [12:22]  Richardus Raymaker: aha, the famous eject seat.. [12:23]  Cuteulala Artis: indeed [12:23]  Cuteulala Artis: i understand its not a major issue thats gonna crash us all [12:23]  Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I actually looked at this problem before but could not see any issues with the messages being sent to the viewer [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: so maybe the problem is more a conceptual one [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: well its something that would be great if it could be fixed [12:23] Mike Kayaker: Heres the one about how to move the avatar: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlSitTarget#UpdateSitTarget [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of people complain about it [12:23]  Cuteulala Artis: yes i am willing to do what ic an for it [12:23]  Cuteulala Artis: maby ask linden labs [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: lol [12:23] Cuteulala Artis: what the issue is [12:24]  Cuteulala Artis: even tho they hate us [12:24]  Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:24] Cuteulala Artis: maby if we show them money lmfao [12:24] Cuteulala Artis: jk [12:24]  Justin Clark-Casey sighs [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: Well, this probably has been around for a long time and certainly needs to be fixed, but someone has to do some careful work finding out exactly what's wrong [12:24] Cuteulala Artis: show me were to start [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: at the opensim software level and it's interactions with the viewer [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: do you know c# [12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: ? [12:25] Cuteulala Artis: i am a intermediate scriptor [12:25] Cuteulala Artis: C++ very little [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: first step is learn c# [12:25]  Cuteulala Artis: to low if u sak me [12:25]  Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: then I'll reveal the next step [12:25] Cuteulala Artis: well i learned Lsl im sure i can tackle C [12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: mmmm [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: C# is not nearly as hard as C++ [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:25] Richardus Raymaker: learn C# and know it on the tumb are 2 different things :O [12:25] BlueWall Slade: back [12:26] Richardus Raymaker: need to look and play with it anyway to [12:26]  Cuteulala Artis: least i did fix the shaky on my coasters by root prim sititng [12:26] Cuteulala Artis: now i will try a multi sit [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: do what openjpeg lib did you put back? It's not obvious from the commit message [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I've got a feeling at the back of my mind that I knew about the windows issue already but forgot it [12:26]  BlueWall Slade: I think that avatar sit thing is related to our physics too [12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I should think they are separate [12:27] Cuteulala Artis: well no because we become none physical when we sit on a root thats not physical [12:27] BlueWall Slade: ./openjpeg*.dll [12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it's all about camera positions, etc. [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: right, but which versions? [12:27] Cuteulala Artis: <think [12:27] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:27] Teravus Ousley: what isn't separate about physics and sitting.. is the avatar's position when /not/ sitting [12:27] BlueWall Slade: I looked at it once, and we have the avatar and the prim from the same root entity [12:27] BlueWall Slade: so, it really didn't look th at hard [12:28] BlueWall Slade: but someone told me it was harded than it looks because of the physics [12:28] Robert Adams: the physics engine needs to do proper raycasting to allow selection of the sit target [12:28] BlueWall Slade: harder [12:28] Teravus Ousley: If the avatar stops sitting and isn't 'moved' to the new place it's standing.. it'll jump back to the old place [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya the ray selection thing is only for sitting on unscripted prims [12:28] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: which versions of openjpeg did you put back? [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: while that would be nice to have working [12:28] BlueWall Slade: it would be good to get that behavior here [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: its less popular than the scripted sit issues [12:29] Cuteulala Artis is Online [12:29] Mike Kayaker: Justin, this wiki link has a discussion of the avatar landing on the end: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlAvatarOnLinkSitTarget [12:29] BlueWall Slade: justin, I thin the same ones I removed [12:29] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: you removed them?? [12:29] BlueWall Slade: yes [12:29] Cuteulala Artis: i really want to program a high quality media tv [12:30]  Cuteulala Artis: and sitting issue [12:30] Cuteulala Artis: :P [12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: oh ok, I thought I had. When was that, in the addins branch? [12:30] BlueWall Slade: when I was working on the plugins [12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: that page implies you can sit on child prims [12:30] Nebadon Izumi: media tv is easy [12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: e.g. "If the prim that is clicked on has a sit target..." [12:30] BlueWall Slade: it is just the windows ones [12:31] Nebadon Izumi: the sitting thing not so easy :) [12:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: prim rather than 'object' [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: no not that kind of media tv [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: :P [12:31]  BlueWall Slade: the *.so files are in lib[32/64] [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: i want a complex one [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: even ones that can play game son the internet and such [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: and browse [12:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: ah ok, that explains things, thanks. Yes, windows unfortunately doesn't obey the config stuff and so those dlls still need to be in bin/, which is annoying [12:31]  Cuteulala Artis: and youtube and movies [12:31]  Mike Kayaker: You can sit on a child prim, but then you just become another one of the child prims. [12:31]  BlueWall Slade: but, the path is hard coded and windows does't look at the confi [12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: that should all be possible [12:31] Cuteulala Artis: yup [12:31] BlueWall Slade: yes [12:32] BlueWall Slade: I plan to fid it in libomv and ask for them to pull the patches [12:32] Mike Kayaker: Each child prim can hav it's own separate llSitTarget, so you can have 4 seats in a car. [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: make: that does imply your link should lawys be the last one [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmmmm [12:32] Cuteulala Artis: i want to program soemthing like this [12:32] Cuteulala Artis: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/VEA-2-Full-HD-1080p-Ambilight-MP3-Live-Yahoo-Music-Subtitles-Milkdrop-Visualizer-Youtube-Megavideo-Justin-Movies/1792408 [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: so that would imply that setting parent ID in SP to the child prim is wrong - as dahlia said, there's only one level of linking [12:33] Mike Kayaker: There is only one lievel of prim linking, including avatars. [12:33] BlueWall Slade: in sl, they add agent links to the end [12:33] Mike Kayaker: but multiple ways a avatar can get linked. [12:33] BlueWall Slade: so, they are the high numbers [12:33] Cuteulala Artis: and since that creator of that tv wants my coaster engine so bad and i want his tv well seems it may just happen a osgrid tv like that lol [12:33] BlueWall Slade: and prims to the beginning, so they are low [12:33] BlueWall Slade:  [12:33] Basil Sosides: bey all....good Night [12:34] Nebadon Izumi: see you Basil [12:34] BlueWall Slade: bye Basil [12:34] Justin Clark-Casey: well you see, in LLClientView.CreateAvatarUpdateBlock, there is a ParentID parameter which is currently always set to the prim sat on (i.e. possibly a child prim) [12:34] logger sewell: tc Basil [12:34] Richardus Raymaker: bye basil [12:34] Justin Clark-Casey: but that might be wrong - perhaps it should always be the root parent id of the linkset [12:34] Mike Kayaker: The order is interesting, but I can code around that. It is other functionality, like moving the avatars, that I need. [12:34] Cuteulala Artis: one thing lolol [12:34] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect all of these problems Mike, lead back to the same issue [12:34] Nebadon Izumi: the order [12:34] Cuteulala Artis: Why would we pick this sim as the meeting sim i get like 9 FPS here lol [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: thousands of rpims [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:35] BlueWall Slade: if I remember right - the avatar and the prim has the same root entity [12:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats one of the reasons we do pick this sim [12:35] Nebadon Izumi: this meeting sort of couples as a weekly load test [12:35] Richardus Raymaker: graphics settings to high ? [12:35] Nebadon Izumi: this sim is the worst case scenario [12:35] Mike Kayaker: Justin: Each prim has a sitposition, but each script has the requested permissions for each seated avatar. It's complex! [12:35] BlueWall Slade: and I guess you would need the movemebnt to act on that [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: its high haha [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: but my poor viewer at 10fps now [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:35] Cuteulala Artis: unsuauly [12:35] Nebadon Izumi: depending on which way your camera faces has an effect on FPS [12:35] Nebadon Izumi: if you face the fireplace it will go up [12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: if you face the mall, it will drop like a rock [12:36] Mike Kayaker: 10FPS! Lucky you! [12:36] Richardus Raymaker: 10fps, DD256, HIGH setting [12:36] logger sewell: I'm running 24.5 [12:36] Cuteulala Artis: well i am glad the osgrid comunity is having fun with thoes rides i making :) [12:36]  Cuteulala Artis: cause now they getting more rides soon lmao [12:36]  Cuteulala Artis: and in mesh [12:36]  Richardus Raymaker: hope its better when i ever get a new card. 2014 or so [12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: well if anyone does want to take a stab at fixing the sit issues, let me know I can test, give examples, show specifically how its broken etc.. [12:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: If I ge time, I might do a quick test today to see if setting ParentID different does make a difference [12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be great Justin [12:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: tbh, pointers to a mantis or a new one would be really heflpul [12:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: summarizing that kind of data [12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: give me a shout i can test [12:37]  BlueWall Slade: Cuteulala Artis, the roller coasters and nice [12:37] Nebadon Izumi: ok, i'll see what I can find on Mantis [12:37] Nebadon Izumi puts on his spelunking gear [12:37] Mike Kayaker: You saw min? #6421 [12:37] Cuteulala Artis: I redesigned the park for users with lowerend pcs it now only has 3k prims [12:37] Cuteulala Artis: and 6 rides [12:37] Cuteulala Artis: more for less! [12:38] Mike Kayaker: Mantis #6421 [12:38] Cuteulala Artis: what on earth is a mantis the one that prays [12:38] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:38] Nebadon Izumi: its our bug tracker [12:38] Nebadon Izumi: its like Jira [12:38] Nebadon Izumi: for SL [12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: http://www.opensimulator.org/mantis [12:38] Cuteulala Artis: checks [12:38] Nebadon Izumi: I like mantis better [12:39] Nebadon Izumi: you don't need to be a PHD to understand it [12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:39] Andrew Hellershanks prefers bugzilla [12:39] Cuteulala Artis: oh a bug report [12:39] Richardus Raymaker: only thing on mantis that could betetr is search [12:39] Cuteulala Artis: forums [12:39] Nebadon Izumi prefers anything but jira [12:39] Cuteulala Artis: Multiple UUID Gatherer errors at startup of instance :P i had this many times [12:39] Cuteulala Artis: lol [12:39] Justin Clark-Casey: mike: yeah, unfortunatley I don't think the code is in LSL_Api at the moment to handle scene presences [12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: it only handles prims, which is probably why you're seeing nothing happen [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't like how mantis sends out email when a bug was changed. It includes the original report so you have to scroll down to find the new information. [12:40] Mike Kayaker: Oh, let's drop everything and gfix that! [12:40] Richardus Raymaker: or click the link and look on web [12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, nebadon: I was running tests re: link order some time back. I can use my test objects to check the link order when an avatar sits on a prim. [12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: on a prim in a linkset. [12:41] Nebadon Izumi: might be good if you can run identical tests [12:41] Nebadon Izumi: here and in SL [12:41]  Andrew Hellershanks: sure. np [12:41] Justin Clark-Casey: well, in thie case it's because the code simply isn't there to handle scene presences [12:41] Nebadon Izumi: and report any differences you see [12:41] Justin Clark-Casey: nothing to do with link order per se [12:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are various problems here but I don't believe that they are connected to each other [12:42] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to go and do some other things today [12:42] Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys later [12:42] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:42] Cuteulala Artis: byes ty for comming [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I should get going to. I'm halfway through sculpting a milkshake machine. [12:42] logger sewell: tc Justin [12:42] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:42] Andrew Hellershanks waves to Justin