Chat log from the meeting on 2013-10-01

[10:53] Teravus Ousley: hello early birds [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:54] Marcus Llewellyn: Heya Neb [10:54] Teravus Ousley: click here ---> http://www.nasa.gov/ :) [10:54]  Marcus Llewellyn: Hiya Teravus [10:54]  Andress Renault: Hey Neb good to see you. [10:54]  Andress Renault: Hey Teravus [10:54]  Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... Nasa sent out tweets to the same effect. [10:54]  Andress Renault: How you doing Neb? [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: things are good, crazy busy :) [10:55] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:55] Andress Renault: Great, oh do they do this voice or text? [10:56] Andress Renault: Wonder if I need to fiddle with my sound settings. [10:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Text [10:56] Andress Renault: Ok good [10:56] Andress Renault: Im writing the blog for Virtual Highway right now, keeping me busy. [10:56] Andress Renault: Speaking of the lady herself, Ms Magic [10:57] Andress Renault gives Tiffany a hug [10:57] Tiffany Magic smiles and hugs her back [10:57] Andress Renault: Was your ears ringing? I just mentioned writing for the blog [10:57] Andress Renault: Logger! [10:57] logger sewell: Hi all [10:58] Teravus Ousley peeks at basefook [10:58] Andress Renault gives him a hug. [10:58] Tiffany Magic: I think my ears constantly burn. Not so sure that is a good thing. lol [10:58] Richardus Raymaker: hi all [10:58] Andress Renault grins [10:58] Andress Renault: Hey Rich [10:58] Richardus Raymaker: uhhh tiffany. to close to the rocket exchaust pipe ? [10:59] Richardus Raymaker: hi andreas [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:00] Teravus Ousley: Hello MrCC [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:00] logger sewell: hey Justin [11:01] Marcus Llewellyn smiles amicably. :) [11:01] Andress Renault: Hey Justin nice to see you [11:01]  Andress Renault passes out hot tea, coffee, and a delicious pumkin spice cake. [11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's the kind of thing which makes you want to be in the real :) [11:02] Teravus Ousley: a smaller meeting today [11:02] Andress Renault: For sure. [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin, marcus (nice page you have) [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i am sure more will show up [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: always late people [11:02]  Marcus Llewellyn: Hi Rich. I have a page? [11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi neb [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I have not run into any more teleport issues with the latest code Justin [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: whooo [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: things seem to be holding up quite well right now [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, good to know [11:03]  Tiffany Magic: We certainly have your share of them in VH, Nebadon. [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: VH? [11:03]  Tiffany Magic: Virtual Highway. [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: your running the latest code? [11:04]  Tiffany Magic: But, we are running 7.6PF [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: if your talking about hypergrid teleports to its completely unrelated [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: marcus, blog right ? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: Hypergrid teleports are going to continue to be problematic for some time [11:05] Andress Renault: I also blog [11:05] Tiffany Magic: We are not hypergrid enabled. I'm just talking about regular teleporting. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: k [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: what kind of problems? [11:05] Tiffany Magic: Crashing almost every time. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: odd [11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Oh, yes, I do have a blog. It only gets written to when I feel like it, though. :) [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: I have not heard anyone else mention this [11:05]  Andress Renault: Oh Neb? Should I keep it off on my personal in your opinion. [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Hypergrid? [11:06]  Andress Renault: Yes Sir [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: no, but just don't expect it to be perfect is all [11:06]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Rich [11:06]  Tiffany Magic: No other grids are having teleport crashing problems? [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Tiffany I have not heard a single person say it crashes everytime [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: this infact is the first time I have heard anyone say that [11:06]  Arielle Popstar: i seeing more issues but hard to tell if opensim or viewer [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: well, i crashed with TP in 0.7.5 grid. but thats old version [11:06]  Tiffany Magic: Almost everytime. [11:07]  Arielle Popstar: there was a recent mantis Neb [11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: i guess its not running newer [11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: I was doing a bit of sim hopping around OSgrid the other night. I wasn't having any crashes myself. [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: I know were not seeing anything like that on OSgrid [11:07] Andress Renault: Ok thanks Neb [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and I have not heard anyone on IRC mention anything like that either [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: are you getting any kind of specific messages on the console? [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: waiting for 2 things now. new ups battery and 0.7.6 final. then we can have fun [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: if you are getting specific crash messages make sure you are mantising these issues [11:08] logger sewell: nothing on the robust that I have seen I need to look at the region log files [11:09] Tiffany Magic: All I know is, we crash even when standing still doing nothing. Blink of an eye and we are looking at our desktops. [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't do anything about issues unless they are reported with good data. It's hard enough addressing them even then [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: and realistically, it's too late for this release now [11:09] Arielle Popstar: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6755 [11:09] Teravus Ousley is generally waiting for 0.7.6 also.. but doesn't want to kick bees nest insert foot [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: Justin, i thing its getting oe clear when more run on 0.7.6 [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I have not seen enough wide spread complaints to hold up a release [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: one grid having issues, i would suspect more some kind of configuration issue at this point [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: last week issues were way more wide spread [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: I dont think its bworse then before :) [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: but since the latest fixes I have not heard a single complaint [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: until right now [11:10]  Andress Renault: Off topic but is Diva keeping up with her distribution? [11:10]  Arielle Popstar: seems so [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: she is, but her distro is only based on releases [11:10]  Andress Renault: Ok thanks Arielle and and hello [11:10]  Arielle Popstar: she is anxious for the release so she can update [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: so until the official release is out, there wont be a new diva distro [11:11]  Andress Renault: Ok sounds fair enough [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully soon [11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe, more are doing the releas dance [11:11]  Teravus Ousley: On a side note, I did a javascript prim viewer and a JavaScript PrimMesher port: http://173.216.136.104:8081/example/PrimTypeEditorUsingTHREE.htm [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi teravus [11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: I saw that, teravus! I tried the example. Very cool! [11:12] Teravus Ousley: :) [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: Tube is rendering wrong Teravus [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: its a Torus [11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: you know the fps square is on top of the edit screen ? [11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: not sure what you can do there [11:12]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          e24edad: 2013-09-26 00:39:32 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:12]  dj phil is Online [11:13]  Marcus Llewellyn: I was under the impression that AAA, super happy, award winning UI for the example wasn't on his priority list. ;) It did the job. Hehe. [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: whats wrong with the torus ? [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: ohh [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: is there any aim behind this or is it just for fun? [11:13] Teravus Ousley: I probably don't have the params set up properly for a tube yet.. Have to compare the viewer on that probably [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: yes tube show wrong [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: e.g. would ppl be able to use this to create prim objects entirely offline? [11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Presumably it could be part of a web client. [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: well.. it looks and works good. [11:14] Teravus Ousley: https://github.com/Teravus/JSPrimMesher/ You can use this library to create prim objects entirely in browser [11:15] Arielle Popstar: so could be combined in pixie viewer? [11:15] Teravus Ousley: I'm thinking that at some point grids may want to show previews of inventory objects or something on their website [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:15] Teravus Ousley: He could use it in PixieViewer if he wants to [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: was jhurliman once doing something similar in libomv? [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: never heared about picieviewer [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: I have still not been able to try pixie viewer [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: always tells me it cant connect [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: pixieviewer is somewhat curious in not connecting to a live opensim server, but some other pixeviewer server [11:16] Marcus Llewellyn: That's something I've always felt the viewer could do better; previews of most inventory objects. [11:16] Marcus Llewellyn: But then, viewer inventory leaves a lot to be desired all around. [11:16] Teravus Ousley: jhurliman was doing a C# port of the linden prim builder.. but that was gpl and all that [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: right [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I suspect its going to be a very long time before we see opensimulator regions in a web browser window [11:17] Teravus Ousley: Most attempts to use javascript for prim involve connecting to a server and downloading a mesh that's built by the server [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: Ar eyou guys aware that LL is planning on doing a massive overhaul of it's inventory APIs? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: atleast in any kind of useable way [11:17] Arielle Popstar: is it of value for radegast? [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: ?? marcus !! ? [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: LL doesn't have any APIIs [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik [11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, how they handle inventory between server and client, then. [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: where did you hear about this Marcus? [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: things are always changing - I prefer to worry about what's right in front :) [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: and some of those changes never come about or are hugely delayed [11:18]  Marcus Llewellyn: Inara Pey's blog. She's generally a very reliable source. [11:18]  Teravus Ousley: WebGL is a bit too slow to show full OpenSim scenes.. so I wouldn't do a webgl viewer yet [11:19]  Teravus Ousley: .. but a small inventory preview window is within WebGL's capability [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: have a link? [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: not even simplified ones with just mesh and sensible use of textures? [11:19]  Marcus Llewellyn: I'm trying to find one. [11:19]  tx Oh is Online [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: WebGL is cool, but its not very good yet [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: performance wise [11:20]  Teravus Ousley: JCC: not really.. The max you could hope for with poor performance is 4000 prim and 1 avatar [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: you dont mean SSA/SSB marcus ? [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: rendering scenes with massive amounts of geometry and textures is just not possible [11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: No, I don't mean SSA, although the CoF folder apparently is a factor in it. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: most of the cool WebGL stuff i have seen that performs well [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: is very low poly [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: like Ninentdo 64 type graphics [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: hehm quakegl? [11:20] Andress Renault is Online [11:21] tx Oh: hello [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: quake is aincent [11:21] Teravus Ousley: I also still have my previous live test: http://173.216.136.104:8081/example/livetest.html [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the graphics are horrible [11:21] Andress Renault: Thanks [11:21] tx Oh: still no webgl client in sight? [11:22] Arielle Popstar: yes but could run Q2 on a pentium 2 with 256 mb ram ;) [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: quake came out in 1996 [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: that is like dos era level graphics [11:22]  Marcus Llewellyn: https://modemworld.wordpress.com/2013/09/29/sl-projects-update-week-39-3-viewer-interest-list-http-ssa-and-more/ [11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: horrible. it looks likem vista terrain generator for dos :O [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: seems just like yesterday [11:22]  Marcus Llewellyn: Read down to the section named: Server-side Appearance / AIS v3 [11:22]  tx Oh: i'm in with my new notebook with gtx 765m on linux with optirun :-) [11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: She's mentioned if before as well, but that's the only mention I can find quickly. [11:23] Teravus Ousley: (I purposely striped the terrain during testing) [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya she doesnt say much there [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: we'll probably just have to wait and see unless some of the other dev viewers have some insight [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: I doubt  that LL has divulged much about it yet. [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: wait and see if the only realistic policy [11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: I just put it out there so it wasn't a complete surprise to anyone. [11:25] tx Oh: teravus are you going to write a webgl client? [11:26] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: I think there are some major stumbling blocks with a webgl client [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: like UDP [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: might be able to do something on very small scale [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: well, as teravus has already demonstrated, you stream things over websockets instead [11:27] tx Oh: there are already udp proxies [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: would be really difficult [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounds like performance is a major blocker [11:27] Marcus Llewellyn: It's just more work, is all, as I assume you'd need an alternate protocol stack. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya, but hes not doing teleports and stuff [11:28] Teravus Ousley: Perf is the major blocker right now [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i guess it depends on the end goal [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: replacing the SL viewer i just dont see it happening, even if building isnt a factor [11:28] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:28]  Marcus Llewellyn: RealXtend's protocol might be suitable for it. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia :) [11:28]  Marcus Llewellyn: Heya Dahlia [11:28]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Dahlia [11:28]  Teravus Ousley: It would also be helpful to get a structure in place server side so that people can connect these clients to regions universally.. but .. it's probably still too early for that [11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:29]  logger sewell: i need to go and dig into some code I'll see you all next week [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye logger [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, I have done very basic testing with Three.js, even with just 1 model, performance is pretty bad [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: you have to really spend a lot of time optimizing your models and textures [11:29]  Tiffany Magic: Good bye all [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think quite a lot depends on browser too [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: something we just dont do in opensimulator [11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: new viewer? [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's what people on sl and opensim should really be doing too [11:29] tx Oh: well, i think webgl is fast enough [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: this is one reason all this stuff performs so badly relatively speaking [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: yes, i totally agree [11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: I agree that replacing LL's client is aun unrealistic goal any time soon. What I would love to see is a parallel fork of it that actually has a somewhat official status under the OpenSimulator project umbrella. [11:30] Arielle Popstar: @ Justin, now that .7.6 final is almost upon us, do you have some ideas of what opensim will be working towards for ,7,7? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but a native OpenGL client handles it a lot better [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers in general dont handle tons of content well [11:30] Teravus Ousley: I don't really think it's feasable to use a webgl client right now on OpenSim content. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I can't speak much for other people but I expect better region crossings and maybe variable region support [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: Better bullet ? maby simborder verhicle crosing arielle ? just 2 guesses [11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: There's *always* better bullet. ;) [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: for my part, I hope to move to co-op script termination, deduplicating asset store and update .net version, etc. [11:30]  tx Oh: i usualy use chromium, it has fast javascript engone [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I know Melanie has a ton of stuff waiting to go in [11:31]  Arielle Popstar: with variable regions then border crossings arent really a priority? [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: Border crossing stuff is one of them [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: more physics stuff [11:31]  Marcus Llewellyn: Speaking of scripts, has anyone revisited mono's current status when it comes to AppDomain handling? [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: as usual, people are working on their different ideas [11:31]  Andress Renault: Better physics for sure [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: Robert is working on var regions [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: he couldnt make it today [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: i think your better with normal regions then mega. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: he said he is stuck behind firewall [11:32] tx Oh: there is also a port of bulletphysics [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: man :) [11:32]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Neb, you are showing to me as UserUMMAU4 ... [11:32]  Arielle Popstar: how about easier networking for opensim ? :) [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: thats a tough one [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: one thing that does suck though [11:33] Arielle Popstar: but would benefit so many new people [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: i think my problem list will grow the next 12 months :) [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: is you pretty much can not buy a router anymore that supports loopback [11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I pretty recently bought a tp link that supports it just fine [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: there is some kind of consipiracy with router manufacturers to stomp out loopback support [11:33]  Teravus Ousley: tx Oh: Yes there are two bullet ports.. One that's already an option in BulletSim. The other bullet port is called 'Ammo' and it's a JavaScript port of bullet [11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: you can, it just takes secret commands to enable it [11:33]  Marcus Llewellyn: I'm all for easier networking for the averga joe, but it shouldn't be part of core, but rather a third party wrapper. OpenSim needs to be flexible on the networking front, and that means that it needs to allow for complex/advanced networking. [11:33] Arielle Popstar: the cheap routers are the best for loopback support imo [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: yes there are some, but as more time passes its getting worse [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i think if you really look right now you will find a much higher % of hardware does not support loopback than does [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: at one time, I was asked to investigate a scheme for giving different IPs to different connections [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: so for instance, somebody that was detected as connecting from local lan would get a local ip from the region, and somebody external would get the external ip [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: and its nearly impossible to know for sure when your buying [11:34] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Loopback support has ZERO to do withj OpenSim. Any service that you offered to the Internet and wanted access yourself would have the same issue. [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: time someone creates a rasberry pi router :P [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: my experience is the more expensive routers arent necessarily the best choice [11:34] Teravus Ousley wishes the client resolver was a little bit smarter, but yeah.. it would be a lot of work [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: I was on the phone with Asus for like 40 minutes, and none of the techs I spoke with even know what loopback was [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: however, implementing it I estimated as 6 person weeks [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: which isn't exactly much, but is an awful lot to spend unpaid on one issue [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: then after getting some higher up people they said they are disabling it for security reasons, and not providing anyway to turn it back on [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I dont think there is any easy answers [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: that i have read more nebadon [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: networking is going to get much more complicated in the future with ipv6 too [11:36] Teravus Ousley uses DMZ in cases where loopback is not working [11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: One possible solution to loopback/port forwarding issues is IPv6 support in OpenSim. That's slowly (slowly!) rolling out, and it generally gets rid of NATs. [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, not having the clinents do ipv6 is already an issue in some contexts [11:36] Arielle Popstar: the gaming devs seem to be able to do it [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: uhuh. but not found a nice hardware gigabit firewall. thats doing ipv6 [11:36] Arielle Popstar: so must be posible [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: e.g. contracts which mandate ipv6 support unless you get an exception [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle most games dont need loopback [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and if you were running like a Dedicated game server [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you would run into loopback issues [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: no sense in implementing ipv6 if the LL protocol needs ipv4 [11:37] Andress Renault waves silently sneaking out. [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: if you were trying to connect to your own server from same network [11:37] Andress Renault is Offline [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but very few people actually do that [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: bye andreas [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I think thats why most router companies just dont care [11:37] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: It's a networking issue, not an OpenSim issue. [11:37] Arielle Popstar: back in my Q2 days i had servers locally and never once had to deal with loopback [11:38] Arielle Popstar: didnt even hear the word till i came to opensinm [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Q2? [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: well its only an opensim issue in the fact that at some point it will be very difficult to run your own opensim server from your home [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: in some instances it already is, but could get worse [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, thats becasue years ago [11:38] Arielle Popstar: quake 2 [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: all routers support it [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, in the past i think more software did have problems. like skype [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: like i said manufacturers are systematically removing support [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: in the name of added security [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: security for who i know know [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but thats what they are claiming [11:38] Arielle Popstar: nod [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: they dont even know [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: meanwhile the keep upnp enabled and other things wide open [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: they cant answer the question [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: in the end it worked out ok for me [11:39]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: Anyone can, with PC, two NICs and a Linux distro, create a firewall router pretty easily. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i loaded Tomato Linux Firmware onto my router [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but i mean thats a horrible solution [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: it instantly voids your warranty [11:39] Arielle Popstar: not user friendly Shaun [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: i knowshuan, but rasberry pi is nicer for energy bill. but nobody made it [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: brand new router, within an hour i void the warranty [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we cant really be recommending people do that [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: as a solution [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: omg tomato linux. thats haveing a bad loopback support [11:40] Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: I'm just telling you there is a solution. If you don't want to use it. *shrug* [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its awesome Richardus [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: flashed the orginal netgear back to get things working [11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm a huge third pawrt firmware fan.... and no. It's not a resolution to issues that ought to be lightly offered. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its working great for me, i couldnt be happier [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, perhaps minecraft has the same issue [11:40] Arielle Popstar: try guiding someone through thtt solution [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: No nebadon, i enbaled the loopback support and still could not TP to my regions [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: everything does [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: even Apache web server [11:40] tx Oh: i use freifunk on my router [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt even load my own websites [11:41] Teravus Ousley thinks OPenSim needs a special option name resolver that can be configured for multiple interfaces [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its super frustrating problem [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: I think you can also use an old windows computer as a firewall if you are linux challenged [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya you can I have done that before [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: "internet connection sharing" [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: NCS [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: its not a good experience but it works [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: The difference with something like Apache or many game services is that you can just type in your local IP to access those services. OpenSim's grid mode won't let you work like that. [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: eep, dahlia. noo. sofar i know there linxu firewall distro's [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt marcus [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i use vhosts with names [11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Ah... yup. [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes, and that could be fixed I think but takes a fair bit of work [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: can opensim not get its won vhost file ? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not a easy answer, Adam experiemented with a loader [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: that got around the NAT issues [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but it failed like 75% of the time [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: hmm [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: im sure if he spent a lot more time we could have gotten past most of those issues [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but it is a lot of work [11:43] Arielle Popstar: the one from new world studio works pretty good [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: so many variations of hardware [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: skype is useing a third server to solve it. but thats no option for opensim [11:44] Teravus Ousley thinks a lot of the networking issues could be resolved by altering OpenSim's default region DNS resolution procedure [11:44] Arielle Popstar: Oh Teravus? [11:45] Arielle Popstar: so opensim uses an overly complicated method? [11:45] Teravus Ousley: It's too simple :) [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:46]  Arielle Popstar: resulting in complications for the user [11:46]  Teravus Ousley: using DNS to get a name resolution to an IP address is meh in our case [11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: Teravus, just guess. send the souyrce ip with opensim pckets to robust. so it knows to who it need to send back and where ? [11:46]  Teravus Ousley: especially over multiple networks [11:47]  dj phil is Offline [11:47]  Arielle Popstar: and to fix that would take someone 6 man weeks? [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: longer than that probably [11:47]  Arielle Popstar: or is there any plugin solutions? [11:47]  Teravus Ousley: If there was a bit of code that checked for an explicit name/mapping for the region first, and then used DNS if one wasn't set would be a proper solution to that [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: would require a lot of testing [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: I recall one of the problems Adam and I ran into back when we were trying to make a loader to traverse nat [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: was mono and .net did things very differently [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and that complicated things a lot [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: that may not be as true today [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: write once is great when it works :) [11:49]  Teravus Ousley: Yeah, the DNS solution.. you'd still have to forward your ports and everything.. but the explicit mapping would send clients from different networks to the correct place [11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: well, routers are one of the painfull problems [11:50]  tx Oh: SOCKS5 ? [11:50]  Arielle Popstar: this would circumvent the need for loopback support? [11:51]  Teravus Ousley: internal clients, assuming the mapping was set up, would connect to internal IPs, external clients would connect to external IPs, Loopback not needed [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be nice [11:51]  Arielle Popstar: that would be nice [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: probably improve performance a bit [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: if done right [11:52]  Marcus Llewellyn: Someone once wrote a proxy that did just that. I used to recommend it to people with loopback issues as an easy fix. It's no longer available, unfortunately. [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: how so? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: well if your routing outside of your local network [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: to get to something inside your local network [11:52] Teravus Ousley: I'm not going to say it's quick :) It would probably take a good chunk of man hours [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: your going to get a performance hit network wise [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: the router is interecpeting the requerts and directing it sppropriately [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have to imagine perf impact is negligible [11:53]  Marcus Llewellyn: Well, any changes get *definitely* get tested here on OSgrid like mad. I feel very safe saying that a very high percentage of simulators on this grid are behind NATs. [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe, i guess it depends on how much traffic your router is handling [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: that sounds like a vrey similar solution to mine - I can't remember exactly why I thought 6 man weeks [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think there are some complexities about it [11:53]  Marcus Llewellyn: Because of the 5 other eggs you're juggling, perhaps. ;) [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:54]  Arielle Popstar: ;) [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: or I'm missing something, always possible :) [11:54]  tx Oh: but what is the problem with local loopbacks? with a openwrt based router you can use iptables to do what ever you need here [11:54]  Arielle Popstar: not user friendly Tx [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: Yep, last I checked, you'd have to tweak the way the region asks for a name resolution [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: well thats the problem we cant really recommend WRT as a solution [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: it voids your hardware warranty [11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: I think you can with dd-wrt also but it takes some secret iptables commands [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: we should not be encouraging people to do that [11:55]  Arielle Popstar: dd-wrt has issues with HG [11:55]  Teravus Ousley: .. and promotes itself. Maybe some grid machinery needs to be updated on initial login [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its a solution for sure though it worked for me [11:55]  Arielle Popstar: in my experienc [11:55] Bri Hasp: how many home servers remain and aren't they only OSG [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: just buy a cheap tp-link replcament router, they 're pretty great [11:55] tx Oh: one could write a lua plugin for opensim support for openwrt routers [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: 25 USD [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: lots of home servers and grids [11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: OSG isn't the only open grid. There's a few others. Many people run HG standalones/grids from home as well. [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: tx oh, openw rit have worse loopback then orginal firmware. or maby i got a few problems. also it worked not so nice as tomato [11:56] Arielle Popstar: and even more would like to [11:56]  Shaun.Emerald @sanctuary.homelinux.org:8012: There are plenty of home-served OpenSim installs that have nothing to do with OSG. [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: but.. if people already cant configure port forwarding. how do you want them update router firmware ? [11:56] tx Oh: i have no problem with our local freifunk distro [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya people who are exprienced with networking hardware wont have problems [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but those people are the minority [11:57] Teravus Ousley: the other option for port forwarding is write a UPnP module.. but again.. you probably shouldn't have UPnP active [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: besides, manty cant access router, because the are 70% locked by isp because the are borrowed [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: cheap routers often just work [11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: I would only every, ever recommend a router firmware change with a user who is technically literate and experienced. [11:57] Arielle Popstar: i think the one from NWS is open source Teravus [11:57] tx Oh: as i said, one could write a opensim lua plugin for the openwrt web interface [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: I am very experienced with networking hardware [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and flashing WRT firmware was absurdly frustrating and stressful [11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: It was. It was funny if you weren't him. :) [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: uhh wrt where not to bad. [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: just something we need to consider in the future [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway I wasnt looking for a solution [11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: maybe it was difficult and frustrating because you were anxious? [11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: to flash, it where more work to get orginal firmware back [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: I have a feeling as more time passes less and less routers are going to support loopback [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: its not such a huge problem right now [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: one of the problems with cheap routers [11:59]  Marcus Llewellyn: It all about careful router shopping. and most people don't do that. They buy by what's on the box and price. [11:59]  Teravus Ousley uses DMZ in places where loopback is broked [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: they cant handle a ton of connections [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: that have tiny NAT tables [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and opensimulator can and does overwhelm them if your trying to do a lot [12:00] Arielle Popstar: DMX doesnt seem to work well for opensim [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: ya dmz might be the answer [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I've go to go hop on another meeting right now [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys later [12:00] Arielle Popstar: DMZ^ [12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Take care, Justin :) [12:00]  Bri Hasp: I am in 3D mode today.. OSG is lovely and Justin is very cute ... no issues other than UI [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Justin [12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: laterz [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:00]  Teravus Ousley: the DMZ strategy has been successful for me many times [12:01]  tx Oh sighs [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: thats ok if you have one opensim server [12:01]  Bri Hasp: are you meshy JCC? [12:01]  Arielle Popstar: i have tried it a couple times for the fun of it but not been successfull [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: i have never seen a router that supports more than 1 ip for DMZ [12:01]  tx Oh: we need a webgl client... [12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: need? [12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: DMZ , never got really done anythimng usefull with it. but thats also because you only get 1 ip [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: I think you would be extremely disappointed with a webgl client right now [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: there is absolutely no way you could replace the standard client with webgl [12:02] Teravus Ousley: Right, it's that way because you're essentially sticking one Computer/Router/Device as the 'default' place to send traffic when the router can't determine where to send it [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not even seen any examples in webgl that are anything close to what we do in OpenSim / SL [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: if you do have some webgl demos that are id love to see em [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think any exist though [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: everything ive seen in webgl is fairly basic, even the really cool stuff [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: normal clients have already problems witgh ALM and/or shadows [12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: The Epic Citadel is one of the best I've seen, and it's not up to what we can do. [12:03] tx Oh: it's not needed to replace the stand alone client. but a webgl solution would help to gain attention and is another way to bring content to the people. [12:04] Bri Hasp: ciao .. putting on my Oculus and wandering.. byes [12:04] Teravus Ousley: the really cool stuff usually utilizes tricks that rely on pre-existing knowledge of how the scene is structured [12:04] tx Oh: nebadon, you have seen what party people can do with webgl. nothing else would be needed. [12:04] Arielle Popstar: personally i think the gamifying is the way to attract attention [12:05] Arielle Popstar: people want goals [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suppose cloud party is not attracting a lot of people [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: if you look at it from that angle [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it would benefit us anymore than it is them [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: cloud party is a ghost town [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: second;life party's aree broing to [12:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: Cuz nobody can afford Maya. Heh [12:06] tx Oh: but cloud party is webgl. [12:06] tx Oh: and it performs pretty well [12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Cloud party is pretty darn cool in a lot of ways. But it's also short of what a dedicated client is capable of in lots of other ways. [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya, but its only doing a fraction of the stuff we can too, I think at some point we will have a webgl client [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: You cant put out nearly as much content in cloud party as you can here [12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Remember. WegGL is a subset oif OpenGL. It' does not, and never will have all the feature of the full OpenGL standard. [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: like Wright Plaza, were never going to see anything like this region in a web browser anytime soon [12:07] tx Oh: again, a webgl opensim client wouldn't replace a standalone client but would be a broader first-contact option [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: one thing that really frustrates me about webgl and web browser [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: is the controls [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: then we better dont talk about mega regions in webgl :O [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: keyboard and mouse controls are quite horrible [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: its way to easy to accidently close the window [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: it gets lost in tabs [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: these are all some of my peeves with it [12:08]  Dahlia Trimble: bye all :) [12:08]  Arielle Popstar: you can get lots of people to connect maybe but if there is nothing for them to do, then what good is it? [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia [12:09]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [12:09]  tx Oh: thats all more or less programming issues [12:09]  Teravus Ousley: probably time for me to go also :) [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: see you Teravus