Chat log from the meeting on 2014-12-02

 [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin [11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: my ISP was doing major work somewhere between me and their main stuff [11:04] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Kayaker, Justin [11:04] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Justin :) [11:05]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: Changed_region events do not happen very often when you cross border between two regions on the same standalone or instance [11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so for about a day I was getting 10-15% packet loss [11:05]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ouch [11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: during that time, when I selected anything that had some inventory in it, if any of the inventory items failed to fetch it would say "loading inventory" forever [11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi justin [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hey sorry everyone i had to step away a moment unexpected, back now though [11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so it's a non-bug in the sense that it was my ISP dropping crap-loads of packets [11:06]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi nebadon [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: our Cub Cadet lawn mower being repiared [11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but a bug in the sense of "should that really hang forever if a packet gets lost?" [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and of course they ring door bell at exactly 2pm [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: figures [11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still a big aine because it seems opensim dont recover from packet loss [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :) [11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin did you get divas email? [11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I don't even know how to report that in Mantis :p [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, I will need to look in to that [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: reliable packets (I don't know if task inventory are such) are resent a number of times [11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk [11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I guess in theory it will eventually get them all to me? [11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: what happens - you teleport into a var region and neighbouring var regions do not appear? [11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (the next time the ISP does that to me) [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: right, or even direct login [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: if it fails 3 times then it's droped permanently [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ah [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: once you teleport to the regions they become visible [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: That sounds like what was hapening with OSG and some [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: neb: but the rest of the var region appears just fine? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: the neighbors that is [11:08]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the inventory hanging [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: the var your in is visible yes [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but all the nieghbors are not [11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...any way to have that send a "failed to fetch inventory" message to the viewer? [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: inventory is over http which is a different process [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: neb: ok [11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (or error message to console) [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: there is not [11:09] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: do you have load terrain in view distance on? [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: but that shouldn't be permanent, if you switched to ad ifferent prim and then back it should redeliver the data [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: these are var regions running in different opensim processes on the same machine? [11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: of course when that was happening I rather urgently needed to fetch the inventory of a dance ball with 300 animations in it [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin correct 1 var per simulator [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so any time it fails it has to start all over again [11:10] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: I have seen other var regions not showing up at all until you have a veiw distance that is bigger then the var region, then the neighbors always apear [11:10] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: I missed Neb's problem.. I have 2 768 vars in an instance and can see both from either and edit them both from either.. but crossing on a boat kills the whole thing. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: in this particular instance its 4 768x768 in a 2x2 [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: once you visit all 4 then everything stays visible [11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and at the 10-15% packet lost I was getting that means anything more than 25-30 items in contents is basically a guaranteed fail [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: shez: neb says latested head that isn't happening, withvar regions in two different processes [11:10] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ok [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: I believe task inventory delivery might be weak but I've never looked into whether that's an opensim issue or a general sl protocol issue [11:11] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: so it is like you are not becoming a child in thoughs other regions unless your view distance when you teleport in or login is big enought to need to see them [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know if we were running 100% against mster [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but we were close last couple days [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: has something changed that would have addressed that? [11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was wondering if that same issue could in any way be related to the initial "hang forever" inventory fetch bug on login [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i can say that when we reverted the code [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it was fine again [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: with a large inventory if even 1 item got lost.... [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: neb: what woudl be helpful of course, is if you could identiy the actual revision it stops working [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: thats very difficult [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: no, the mechanisms are entirely different [11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: this is an active project [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i cant bisect the simulator [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: why aren't you trying this stuff on a testinstance first? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not sure maybe diva has some input there [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: well when we found out the project was just setting up [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: we found the problem within a few minutes of starting to setup the new model [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but now we are into it [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant bring it down [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we do have an area that can be tested [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but diva has to do it [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: but you could setup an entirely difference instance and help me :) [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its her dev zone [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I expect I'll have to do it myself anyway [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see what she thinks [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont have anything i can easily bisect it on right now [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: id have to replicate the enviornment [11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's very likely going to be a fundamental issue with no relation to actual content [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i am not sure its probably going to require some input from diva [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'm either going to replicate it or not before then [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: it not then I will need further input, of course [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: �18�<��27diva�>�� 2x2 varregions with very large draw distance �18�<��27diva�>�� tell him to set up a 1x2 varregion side to side �18�<��27diva�>�� and set the server-side draw distance to 1024 [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: bah [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: frigan irc [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: 2x2 varregions with very large draw distance tell him to set up a 1x2 varregion side to side and set the server-side draw distance to 1024 [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: so are these 2z2 regions or 1x2? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ours is a 2x2 [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but i think she is suggsting it should fail the same with 1x2 [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: if it fails on 2x2 then that's the one to try replicating [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if I beg and plead very nicely could some kind-hearted dev have a look into fixing the broken ability to stop the default animations? The Mantis I made for it (http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7357) identifies a fairly narrow window when the bug was introduced...it's a pretty big issue being unable to stop them. [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: so what is the orientation? lhorizontal or vertical? [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: aine: I plan to look at this regression [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its a 2x2 shouldnt matter [11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: great :) [11:20]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: none of the neighbors are visible in any direction [11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 will back e-cookies [11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *bake [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so you have 4 neighbours? [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: 34 [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: 12 [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: like that [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright [11:21]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: hello dahlia :) [11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Aine, what does Firefox have to do with OpenSimulator and viewer programs? [11:21] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh right, so you're saying it's a 2x2 arrangement or 768x768 regions [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: for some reason I was thinking 2x2 = 512x512. Alright [11:21] Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Dahlia :) [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: its a 2x2 arangement of 768x768 vars [11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: maby its firestorm ? easy to ix both [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia [11:22]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, yea, that would make more sense. [11:22]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lol...yeah...Firestorm [11:24]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: did I crash? [11:24]  Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: everyone just quiet? [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: quiet lol [11:24]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: ::blink:: [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i was filling diva in on IRC lol [11:25]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess so...there was a big chat lag spike when Dahlia arrived so I thought maybe I'd been ejected [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: oh didnt notice any lag [11:25] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Noticed when I arrived, some visitors already here listed by their UUID. After around 5 minutes their names appeared. Seen this when visiting other grids, anyone else seen this? [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: not me! not my fault! [11:25] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 blames Justin... [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Billy i have not personally seen that, don't think ive heard anyone else report it either [11:25] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: billy, i see that here aswell some times, no where else tho [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Has anyone experienced entries going missing from the UserAccounts table? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew definitely not [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've had it happen to two different avatar accounts. [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: however i have seen on many occasions people forget the name they use [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It is rare. [11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @BIlly I've experienced that on occasion in busier regions [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: swear up and down they used this name [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: then they give me their email address and its to a different name completely [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim has no mechanism for deleting things from useraccounts [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, yea I've seen that too. [11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: seems to happen a lot at Close Encounter but I thought perhaps it was an Ariba bug [11:27] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Long ago I saw OpenSim WMI eat user acounts [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: that could be indicitive of mysql injection from website [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: All other data seems to still exist for the avatar but just no entry in UserAccounts. [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: it seems unlikely that could be done via opensimulator directly [11:28] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I would say a mis-behaving Web UI would be suspect. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: OpenSim WMI had something that would remove temp accounts if they did not confirm their email ... [11:28] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: a case of little billy tables [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Divas Wifi has that too [11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: To delete just asingle entry requires a very specific SQL command. Seems a bit unlikely it would happen via SQL injection. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but the accounts are in a temp table [11:28] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If they wer in ther ew/o an email addres or something like that, it would take it. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: not in main table [11:29] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Anie, thanks I will take more note of timings in future [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew i would say check logs [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure that the account actually existed [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: if it did there would be traces in logs [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: more than likely the customer is wrong [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: The account exists. I confirm the name/uuid by checking for entries in the inventory tables and the profile tables. [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: it happens a lot on osgrid [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: people swear they have an account [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes they have wrong account, sometimes they have nothing that traces back to them [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: yet they swear they were in 3 months ago [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It gets reported when someone can't log in to their account. Then a friend of theirs is reporting "user unknown" showing instead of the avatar name. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: that isnt good [11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: gack... rl is calling. bbiab. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ive not seen that happen [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: could be a bug in the webUI [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: reusing uuids or something i dunno [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i just cant imagine thats happening because of opensimulator itself [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: there is no code in core opensim that deletes useraccounts entries [11:32] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Yes, we never even reccomend to delete the UserAccount [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya or even overwrite an old account [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: seems very unlikely [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I vote Web UI [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if i had to guess that would be the first place i was looking for sure [11:33] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: delete account = blindly change password to some random 32-character string and don't make a note of it :p [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I had to rebuild a few by hand before. [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: Never tried, somewhat interesting to hear things start to show up as Unknown User - it is what I would expect [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: I recall at one point osgrid website had a bug [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: where you could reuse name and that caused some chaos for a bit [11:34] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: was able to on one grid competely lock out myself from an account by making another account with exact same name and password [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: thats bad for sure [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: osgrid had that bug accidently pop up at one point [11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm surprised that's possible [11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: back [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it is if you write your own UI and you make a mistake or dont do checks [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: its not possible via opensimulator itself [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: this is why touching db tables directly is bad [11:36] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: no unique index on full name? [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that's only one reason too :) [11:36]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, no, it isn't good. It has happened on two occasions to the same user. Now it has happened to someone else. It is very puzzling. [11:36]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: sanitize thoughs database inputs :) [11:37] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: touching tables is bad but everyone does it [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: true [11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: in some cases you have to....when appearance gets borked, for instance [11:37] Nebadon Izumi has a Table Touchers anonymous meeting later today :( [11:37]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :D [11:37]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Someone in our group was pondering on creating an addon module for database maintenance, any thoughts. I was concerned about liability should things go wrong [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: in the long term, I would like to have service calls that allow you to do everything required without touching tables directly [11:38]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: nebadon, :) [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: depends on what kind of maintenance you mean [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, that would be good. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you mean clean up assets and inventory, i would say horrible idea [11:38] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We do our own migrations [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I have documented a lot of calls from http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Services but it's a big task. And they can be rough and ready as they were delieved originally for internal use only [11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It's pretty simple to create a backup cron job [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: developed [11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: So, other than doing 'clean up' work what is left? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you dont ever want to deleted any assets or inventory unless you have advised a very simple way to put the stuff back [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: once it inevitably blows up in your face [11:40] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think remove inventory you can only do with some script that removes it from the main DB and saves it in new one. so it canbe restored [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: asset embedding runs deep, you cant just do a simple database sweep for uuids and be safe [11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: One call that would be very useful is one to remove all all wearable data for an avatar when they get stuck as a cloud due to some badkitem they are wearing. [11:41] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I have done' that before for some DCMA type things. [11:41] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I worked all day on scripts to make sure I didnt' blow up everything. [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew you should be able to erase everything in Worn Items folder [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and acheive that [11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nope [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: from the viewer itself [11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you actually have to go into the database sometimes and wipe it [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: its been a long time since ive had to do that [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that culd be done with calls to SetAvatar in the avatar service but the operation is not yet documented http://opensimulator.org/wiki/AvatarService [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, doesn't help if it is skin or shape. [11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: OSG had a handy web thing to do that when you were logged into your account (along with emptying trash) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: hmm it should though [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Current Outfit folder i mean [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: those are just links [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and if you erase them it should remove it [11:43]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it refused to remove something from me [11:43]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Sometimes, I think you need to wear other base body parts. [11:43] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: You can't just remove those. [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ok ya maybe some wierd bug where things get into some kind of stuck state [11:43] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Skin, shape, etc. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ya possible [11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Some items have been hard to remove. ie. bald cap. [11:43] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: delete the ones you can, then wear another set of those. [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: very hard to recreate those situations [11:43] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Good point the services interface. Makes note, RTFM [11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and also removing physics is close to impossible.....you need a professional exorcist from the Vatican to detach those [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid we had a link on our website [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that would purge all attached items for your avatar [11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes...that's a handy one [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: There is a reset avatar call on IAvatarService which appears to blow everything away [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It deleted the items and replaced them with the basic avatar? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: nope [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it just deleted BlueWall next login you were a cloud [11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is still almost always essential to wipe the database data by hand if you make the mistake of HG-tping to a region running code where attachments don't arrive with you [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but you could attach stuff again [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: funnily enough not used by opensim itself internally and first time I'[ve come across it [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but for a while now i never had to use that [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: for a long while now ive always been able to fix myself just by deleting it from Current Outfit [11:46] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: xbakes has also made that harder to do [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: i havnt had to do a complete avatar purge in couple years [11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the only time's ive needed it are after HG tp when attachments get borked [11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (which only happens on sims running old code) [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think there for a while, we had some isues with the items whether they were from V1 days or V2+ [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you tp to Lost World wearing a mesh avi you'd have to do it [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: also remember when you HG to old simulator [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: scripted objects would break, infixable [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: unfixable* [11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeps [11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It would be nice if you get warning before [11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I really wish there was a way to know *before* tping that the region you're going to is running ancient code [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya that would have required great forsight Richardus [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: really, I think ultimately this stuff has to be managed more by the viewer instead of reliying on the servers to co-operate [11:48] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Different topic for a moment. If I HG TP back to the grid I came from am I back to being in the original grid as if I had logged in to it directly? [11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I believe so [11:48]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, ok. I'll find out after this meeting. [11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: actually would just be nice if a few people would stop clinging to 0.7.5 and 0.7.6 and update their dam sims [11:48] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Technically, you're still there [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: on each hg tp, there's a constant checking with your home grid for various things [11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes aine. but the think 0.7.6 and older is betetr [11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ok. I generally don't use HG except for these meetings. [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I wrote up a bit more about the flow recently at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Hypergrid_Protocol#Teleport_of_an_agent_into_a_foreign_grid [11:50] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 thinks 0.8.2 should be designed to be completely incompatible with anything <0.8.0.3 [11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, yes. I've heard some comments along that line of some things were better in 076 compared to 08 [11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'm waiting for the next release so I can TP from a var to a regular region without crashing. [11:50] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: anyone up for a quicky load test after this meeting? http://grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wrong plaza [11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It sounds hard, but in some way it would be nice to make old ones not working anymore. well at leasy with HG. [11:51] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, I think that could be done as there is that HG protocol version setting(?) in the ini files. [11:51] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Andrew, that should be covered by the Simulator Version limit? [11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We should do some protocol checks before alowing TP's I gues. And we might anyway. [11:51] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there's a query that already happens about HG method...that could be told to only do a tp if it gets a query with format XXX [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: there's no explicit hg protocol version [11:52] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: the varregion does some checks I think [11:52] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Billy, that wouldn't help. Its the same code across all regions in the grid. [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes [11:52] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Dahlia, I will be there [11:52] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (the one that in console tells you that they should consider upgrading) [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++Dahlia [11:52] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: ok. I may be thinking of that thing that was something like Simulator/1.1 [11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have seen it in the viewer to [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's a tp version thing [11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but.... ? [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya the before 4069 and after 4096 bug version i assume [11:53] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: justin, ok. I don't use HG. I thought there was discussions a while back about a version for the HG protocol. [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Do we send the assets or agent first? [11:54] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Some grids I am sure have custom configs. One I know where I can get there, but returning it crashes my viewer [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: agent goes first [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hmm, I gues need the agent there first to attach assets to [11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bugs go next :) [11:54]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Its a pain having my main computer down. I can't do a lot of work, or testing, on OS stuff. [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's not hard for a grid to trap your session until relog [11:54]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: returning from here crashes my viewer 90% of the time [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is another reason i believe ultimately this stuff has to be more in the control of the viewer, like web browsing [11:55]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: its still not fixt andrew ? omg [11:55]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: JC, that hapens in SL :) [11:55] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, I was trying to determine if its MB or CPU that died. I got a replacement CPU and no joy so its likely MB, although someone suggested a power supply issue could have cause a problem but the supply is relatively new. [11:56] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Andrew, those things are powered by smoke - if you ever let it out, it will not work again. [11:56] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, replacing the MB means I might as well upgrade but that means trying to find a MB that can be used in my machine with the PCI slots I need and then new CPU and RAM then I'm looking at around $500 which is not an expense I want just before xmas. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: gpu genie escaped [11:57] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Blue, hehe, yeah. I work with Electronics. I know all about the magic smoke. [11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, thats the price. [11:58] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Once, a trainer told use in a class to return EPROM - I asked if they needed to change the color of the smoke in them? [11:58] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lol [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not sene much smoke, unly glowing power supply's after i tried what blow the fuse [11:59] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've built myself an ESR meter so I can test the caps on the MB. [11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it would be nice if electronics smoke more. then its easy to see what broke :) [11:59] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: someone was testing the EBRS instruction (emit burnt resistor smell) [11:59]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, :D [11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Quicky load test!!! :D (5 minutes) http://grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wrong plaza [12:00]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Oh,I remember how to use the HG TP. Paste it in to the map [12:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 finds that soaking the MB for an hour or two in warm salt water usually eliminates any questions about what it broken [12:00]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: hehe [12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i need todo other things so cannot come this time [12:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It was fun watching people in the NCR R&D lab turning over loose boards and parts when they smelled smoke. [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, top of hour, thanks everyone. going to go to dahlia's address [12:01] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: For 5 minutes I can head over there as long as I can get HG TP back to my starting grid. [12:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If we had a part burn, we would sit and watch them