Chat log from the meeting on 2013-12-10

[11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: core services mostly working [11:05] Mircea Kitsune: Oh, I was wondering about something [11:05] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that mono patch was broken so I had to select what was easier to do [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: well, solved my problem with grid. its now matter of installing the rigth system makeing a pile of config files and configure everything right [11:05] Mircea Kitsune: VERY unlikely. But, has there been any talk with Linden at all recently about integrating the SL main grid with Hypergrid? To even the slightest level [11:05] Mircea Kitsune: Though it seems they cut opensim off entirely [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, it always comes down to configuring it right. ;) [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: Huh mirc ? thats new for me [11:06] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it looks more like they go closed grid [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi JCC [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: hi Justin [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew [11:06] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: from what I found [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Richardus [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: Richard: Such talk existed long in the past [11:06] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi justin [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: i know micr. but thats 5 years in the past [11:06] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Since then I assume the idea was and will remain dead [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: and simnce then the opposite happend [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Kayaker [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi kaya [11:07] Kayaker Magic: Hello! [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: when justin is settled and rezzed i have maby intressting question [11:07] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: it was a year-long experiment from 2008-2009 without asset access which was talked about during 2008-2009 [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm as settled as I'm going to be :) [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: ok. where missing nebadon ? [11:07] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Mircea - I think LL fired everyone that had any ideas about doing that a good while ago, lol [11:07] Tiffany Sicling: no voxeling! [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: BlueWall: They fired Lindens who supported Opensim? [11:08] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: or made them doing other stuff [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: OGP [11:08] logger sewell: hey all [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin: FYI, I provided a patch to mantis 6881 the other day. [11:08] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, logger [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Reading notecards has had a (very?) long standing bug. [11:09] Mircea Kitsune: Hmm... Justin and Kayaker are clouds for several minutes [11:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: to me too [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: interesring. Why isn't there a } seen on every notecard... [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: Ok, jusin. why is DefaultPermissionsModule not coded th be enabled default in core. so you connect forgot to enable it. it seems if that module is not enabled lots of weird this happen and other things start to generate errors. like opening 'preference' in the viewer, possible V2 groups that do weird. last one i need to retest [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: is this because it's on the "last line"? [11:10] Mircea Kitsune: I should relog [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I don't know. I puzzled a bit about that too. Must be something to do with the UTF-8 coded characters in the input somehow messing up the character count. [11:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: mircea did it change for you? [11:11] Mircea Kitsune: Strange. The sim didn't remember my logoff position [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: I don'#t understand, it is enabled by default [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: could it be domething to do with non-latin characters? [11:11] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Mircea - there is a landing point enforced here. [11:11] Mircea Kitsune: Ah, that explains it. Thought it could be a bug [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I think so but I don't use non-latin in my text input so I am limited in how much I could test the original code. [11:12] Kayaker Magic hates enforced landing points. [11:12] Mircea Kitsune: Should landing points also apply to logging in from where you logged out? [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Not in git. i used permissionmodules = PrimLimitsModule and started to get weird problems, bluewall knows. after studio i found DefaultPermissionsModule where not enabel;d/. after enableing that lost of pronlems seem disappeared that [11:12] Dahlia Trimble is online. [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: Landing point are very good [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: and sometimes bad [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ricahrdus: you need to have DefaultPermissionsModule there too [11:12] Mircea Kitsune doesn't hate them, just making sure they always work as intended like anything else [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: Yes i have. but why is DefaultPermissionsModule just not laoded always. and then you can load different on top of that [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: did you test with the notecard and script in that matnis? I ask because I have a regression test which actually tests notecards and doesn't see a }, but that only uses latin chars [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: to allo wpeople to shoot themselves in the foto [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: foot [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, the default perms module should be a default setting but isn't last time I looked. [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: it looks for me, more things need the DefaultPermissionsModule then only prims [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: confg file says it is a default setting [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: lol justin [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, it might not be that way in the code, which would be the bug [11:14] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haha Justin - that is the only way to teach some to dance :) [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, it is commented out in the OpenSimDefaults.ini file. [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: yes [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: correct andrew [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: look in OpenSim.ini.example [11:14] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:14] Mircea Kitsune: hello [11:14] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi Dahlia [11:14] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Dahlia [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, so it depends whether it's the default in the code. It should really also be set in OpenSimDefaults.ini [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, it is also commented out in the .example file. [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: need to say my own fault to, becaue where messing with the primlimits. and forgot to enabeld that to for soem reason. [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: and in the files it says it is the default, which would normally mean it's that way in the code itself [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: But whey the viewer gives some error then if DefaultPermissionsModule is not enabled when you open preferences is weird [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I don't trust the comments in the file as to the defaults. I'm sure I've seen another case where the ini file said something is a default and OpeNSIm didn't behave that way. [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: anyway. it seems fixt [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: in the code that module is the default [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ? It says if the modules doesn't contain DefaultPermissionsModule it returns. If it drops through that if, then it sets it to enabled. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: where? [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: but if you load the primlimits module and dont enbaled the DefaultPermissionsModule the viewer generated "error requesting preferences" when i tried to open preferences. so it get unlaoded as soon you load soem other module ? [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, line 165 of OpenSim/Region/CoreModules/World/Permissions/PermissionsModule.cs [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: well yes, and just 2 lines above that it sets DefaultPermissionsModule if there is no permissionmodules setting [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: er, 5 lines [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, where it says "new string", it means it will check both of those sections for the setting? [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: ok [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: But i am right it get disabled as soon you load some line with permissionmodules =  ? [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: this is the legacy of moving settings around - the old location it still checked [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I suspected that but wasn't sure. [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Good thing in the case of perms [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: yes, so you have to also specificy DefaultPermissionsModule explicitly if you also use primLimits [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Makes sense. If you provide a setting, you override the built-in default. [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: I kow. but just asked myself why not always load defautlpermissionmodule. seperate line ? and then can specigie otehr modules [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it's so crazy people can use a different permissions module [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: if they do now want the defaultpermissionsmodule [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: expect the combination permissionmodules = DefaultPermissionsModule,PrimLimitsModule is more used at some point maby [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks hasn't tried the PrimLimitsModule permission checks [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: not tried, want to try it. and there things got wrong :O [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: do not want, I meant [11:22] Nebadon Izumi is online. [11:23] Richardus Raymaker: i know, its user error. only try to look if that can improved to avoid loseing perms when soemthing is confihured wrong [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: hi nb [11:24] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi neb [11:24] Mircea Kitsune: Hello [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon [11:24] Dahlia Trimble: hi Nebadon [11:24] logger sewell: hi neb [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hello sorry im late [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: hi neb [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: crazy morning of meetings [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: besides is ,PrimLimitsModule anyway soemthing todo with permissions ? [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I don't think what you ran across is a bug. Perhaps the comments near the setting could be improved to indicate that you need both if you want prim limits. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: meetings get in the way of work :0 [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: and still want perms checks. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: prim limits enforces prim limits on parcels [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: i kno. going to test that. [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: ok.. well thats it for now. [11:26] Fearghus McMahon: hi all [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: but like andrew say, comments maby good for fix. [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: but can only blame myself.. [11:27] logger sewell: hey Fearghus [11:27] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi Fearghus [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: hi [11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, there are lots of gotchas in the setup when first starting out. [11:27] Mircea Kitsune: There's something I wanted to ask about BTW [11:28] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed took me three setups until I managed to get everything to work right [11:28] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev         8b3a436: 2013-11-29 02:51:35 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Freaky [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Last time I was at this meeting, there was talk about supporting native regions larger than 512 x 512. With viewer changes so that correct positions and sim size can be reported [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: The code isn't good about telling you if you are missing (required) some setting [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: Variable regions [11:28] Mircea Kitsune: Someone on the main grid however said that Linden is doing the same thing. And default regions are going to be 1024 x 1024 in the future. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea that work si still ongoing, there is a branch named "varregions' [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: mega regions [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Will we be able to use the same viewer implementation? [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: s/(required) some/some (required)/ [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Richardus: It's the predecesor of mega regions [11:29] Franziska Bossi: eep!! [11:29] Franziska Bossi: evening all [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, probably not [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Idea is, Linden want to add this to the viewer. Or one person said that [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: Ok. They probably understood wrong then [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: that would be surprising [11:29] Mircea Kitsune: It was in a scripters group chat IIRC [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea, the only thinked once about large regions in SL in the future. but not default. [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, we have no way of knowing how LL is implementing such a thing, assuming they really are [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: and for now LL is not working at large regions at all [11:30] Franziska Bossi: hi Neb [11:30] Franziska Bossi: hi rich [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: hi franzi [11:30] Mircea Kitsune: True. Until it will be in the viewer at least [11:30] Fearghus McMahon: hiya Franziska [11:30] Franziska Bossi: cookin something brb [11:30] Franziska Bossi: hi Fearghus [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: only curious how far var regions are processed now [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: you mean size wise? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i recall hearing something about 2048 limit maybe [11:31] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I guess general usability [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: for mircea, this the only news i have read about it http://modemworld.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/considering-sl-large-regions/ [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: usability wise I would say not quite ready yet, might be ok for standalone purposes [11:32] logger sewell: thats what 64 regual regions ? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: there are going to be issues with map and teleports [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, no just function wise [11:32] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: looks like mega region talk on that page [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: I think Robert has a lot of code not in the branch yet [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: http://misterblue.com/ [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: he said he was working on being able to have neighors and stuff [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: hehe i hope not smaller then 8x8 because thats the size i need. and yes thats already takeing amount of memory [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: he has been putting some info there << [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: I think he has a lot of small good incremental patches in his local branch that are kind of jammed up by larger incomplete work he is doing simultaneously [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: eventually it will all go in at once and we will probably see a big jump in useability [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Once it's worked out I doubt there'd really be a needed size limit, aside from say what a grid might impose. [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: aha good webpage [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so OtakuMegane, I think there are limits [11:34] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: "Seems that 8192 is a good maximum for region size" [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: with terrain and stuff like that [11:34] vegaslon plutonian: ya the terrain is a real killer a large sizes [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: size limits are necessary for precision [11:34] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I guess the most probable limit will come from viewers [11:34] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: yes, and terrain too [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Imagine the size of an oar file for a region that is 8192m square [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: I can't imagine a region larger than 4096 x 4096 personally [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: if 8192 is good i would use 4096 to stay dafe [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Considering current ones are 512 x 512 [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: thats still HUGH [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: I want to say the limit is 2048x2048m [11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Well in that regard yes, there would probably be processing limits on various things. [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: Robert would need to confirm that [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: thats the 8x8 sims i want tu use. [11:35] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and floats are not good on the whole value range; differing accuracy depending on E [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: but he is working on the ability to neighbor varregions too [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: so once melanies border cross code is in, should be a nice combo hopefully [11:35] Mircea Kitsune: What viewer support var regions for the time being, if any (I haven't understood the exact stage of the code currently) [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: the larger you makea region, the less precision you have for small objects [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: yeah. but verhicles like trains and simbrders. sound diffiuclt [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: 2048 is a long way to go without having to cross a border [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia. aha. hmm [11:36] vegaslon plutonian: 2048 is almost the size of the blake sea in secondlife [11:36] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: dahlia it is even more weird because the positions between 0 to 256 are same accuracy as before [11:36] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but decreases with larger numbers [11:36] Kayaker Magic used to think 256 was a long way to travel in-world... [11:37] Fearghus McMahon: wakes up.......border cross code? [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: nothing fearghus. you can sleep again :) [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yes, the abiltiy for phsical objects to cross borders [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: like vehicles and such [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: So how exactly do you have the lower precision for small objects with bigger region size? [11:37] Kayaker Magic is holding his breath since Melanie is going to add border crossing any second now. [11:38] Fearghus McMahon: cool...cross borders between instances even then? [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: well maby betetr try to use 7x7 for more reasons [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Can't wait. Any major improvement like border crossing code is awesome and exciting [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: Kayaker looks rather blue :( [11:38] Fearghus McMahon: looking forward to it [11:38] Kayaker Magic: where is the skin color UI on this viewer? [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: justin and Kayaker are clouds for me [11:38] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually the final coordinates of an edge is the problem due to differing accuracy floats depending on the actual exponent [11:38] Mircea Kitsune: Same for me and apparently everyone else here [11:39] Fearghus McMahon: now all i want is a drivable motorcycle that leans in the corners ;) [11:39] Mircea Kitsune: Probably means they're wearing something which the asset server is having a hard time delivering [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: if the work now on more var's next to each other its easy to create water. only shame that you still need to be square. so more 2x2 sims then [11:39] Kayaker Magic: I have a sailbot that heels over in the wind [11:39] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: they were clouds since the start for me and never changed [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: Freaky.. clouds other word for snow ? :O [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Fearghus, do you also want the nice metal on ashphalt scraping sound if you wind up leaning over too far? ;) [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: depends on viewer I guess [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: Firestorm provides red clouds [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: or more to orange actually [11:40] Fearghus McMahon: lol Andrew [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: first thing i do is change that terrible color freaky [11:40] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: did not bother with that normally you see them only for short time in that way [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: not in Opensim. just dont want to see red at all. and for your cam you need to be tehre anyway [11:42] After Life is offline. [11:42] Kayaker Magic: And now it is time for my monthly mention of mantis 6121 (et all, moving a seated avatar) I have results from a sort of user survey [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Hmm... there is another question that's been bugging me. About something less important but still [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: 2048x2048 would be a nice vat size. so i hope thats working at least [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: no red? I just got this new red dress :( [11:43] Dahlia Trimble pouts [11:43] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: It looks good to me Dahlia [11:43] Kayaker Magic: In the InWorldz grid they accadently introduced a way to move a seated avatar. I used it to get a posing system (sort of like AVsitter) to work there. [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: :) [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I saw some commits(?) re: seated avatars this past week [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Kayaker. sofar i know things are fixt for big deal [11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Looks good here too [11:44] Kayaker Magic: In which version? [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: think justin maby know that better [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: the seated avatars related to sitting on child prims, not moving them [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. [11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Anyway. Has Opensim thought when / if it's going to have its own version of path finding? I found it pretty useless on the main grid personally. But since all viewers have it now, it would be cool if OS made its own with ODE / BulletX [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Will this happen anytime? [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: not moveing. uhmm so llSetPos as example is not fixt or keyframe motion ? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Mircea it has not been discussed [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea. i think pathfinding ot really usefull at this point. better have a good physics engine complete. [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: ok [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: I put it on my monitor list. I am hoping we can get some of this stuff merged in soon. Otherwise I will fix things myself at some stage, as I did with child prim sitting [11:45] Kayaker Magic: That pose system with move-a-seated avatar sold 10 copies in 6 days, just an indicator of how much people need that feature. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: having the viewer do pathfinding is difficult [11:45] Mircea Kitsune: The NPC system could make use of it too BTW, apart from prim objects that could use it to navigate [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, no path finding in OS yet? good to know, not that I have had time to look at how its done. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: because the LL viewer relys on Havok DLLS not available to the TPVs unless they make their viewer SL only [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: it would be very very difficult to recreate those modules, not impossible but difficult [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew. i looked short at it tried it while ago. but need more studio [11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: The viewer only relies on Havoc to generate a preview of path finding on meshes when uploading them. Nothing sim-related and crurial [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: BS for TPV's? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: that is somewhat outside the scope of opensimulator itself [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: I have a couple pathfinding modules but they aren't very reliable so I haven't released them and I have little incentive to continue work on them [11:46] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: a lot of people have encountered several problems to go through path finding stuff [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Although I didn't check the code, I'm pretty sure Opensim can use any physics engine or system to bake its own path finding, and integrate it with all viewer functions [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: i would say instead pathfinding. make time reliable sensors etc. so that works faster. then you can do much to [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: pathfinding != physics [11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Only Havoc stuff in the viewer is for the mesh upload [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: maby its beter fixt when bullet riuns on own threat [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Dahlila: True, but can rely on them sometimes IIRC [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: I thought they used some proprietary havok formats [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: for the path finding models [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Only to generate previews on meshes at upload time [11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, ok. I thought someone was indicating that LL uses Havok in their viewer as part of path finding support. [11:48] Mircea Kitsune: The server handles generating the paths and baking them [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: only thing common with physics is LL uses Havok as their supplier for both pathfinding and physics [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: ah' [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew, sofar i know the do [11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: I wouldn't expect too much on pathfinding for a while. If for no reason other than just not a big demand, especially compared to all the other things being worked on. You'd need someone really into making it work. [11:49] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: path finding needs a model to know where an actually path is. That is the same problem the unmanned card projects in RL face [11:49] Mircea Kitsune: Dahlia: Of course, for the main grid they use havoc. In Opensim we'd need our own code [11:49] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: card shoule be car [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: does the pathfinding stuff work well in SL? [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Freaky: It does. But all of that is handled by the server [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: Gives freaky helmet. good luck with finding your path :P [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: pathfinding in opensim: https://vimeo.com/51836266 [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: all i ever saw was the LL demos they did initially [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think ive ever seen anyone else use it yet [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Nebadon: Didn't use it in my own works, but haven't heard people complain [11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Seen it once in action. It seemed to work OK [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: its more used in SL then you think. but its hard to spot to i think [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't heard if it works well or not but I have heard from a few that they had to weaken physics in a few ways to accommodate it [11:51] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: path finding gets pretty complex when you take wright plaza as an example; try to make a NPC go from here to let's say Nebs shop [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, I can do that :) [11:52] Mircea Kitsune: From what I imagine, the only implementation concern is if Opensim can detect all faces and vertices of any object on the simulator (and of course terrain). If it can, the only hard part is the maths to generate the paths [11:52] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the path calculation is what gets complex not the actual move [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Dahlia has a sim with hunter/killer robots :) [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: You cna run, but you can't hide [11:52] Mircea Kitsune: If the sever knows all surfaces, doing it isn't impossible. But it should take a part-genius for the codeI think [11:53] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and that is pretty commonly done wrong with path finding too; more commonly NPCs have a x-ray vision. [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: I think there' enough other things that need attention and time to [11:53] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: a lot people forget non-transparency on walls [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: ? [11:54] Fearghus McMahon: unfortunatly the coders here are only full-geniuses...not partly [11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: If anyone needs an open-source path finding example BTW, you might waant to check the one in Blender's Game Engine. Recently, Blender added that to BGE [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: x-ray vision? [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: You can bake a navigation mesh from the world [11:54] Kayaker Magic: I'm a member of the Chirch of the Sub-Genius, is that partially-genius? [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: more like a-star vision :P [11:54] Kayaker Magic: *Church [11:54] Mircea Kitsune: Kayaker: If you know complex codes and maths for generating paths, sure [11:55] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: means a lot of people code their path finding to the wireframe model instead of letting it know where it could actually see [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: It's one of those things you'd need a coder or two that really wanted to make it a serious project themselves. There's just so much else to be worked on of greater importance at this point. [11:55] Kayaker Magic agrees. [11:55] Vivian Klees: well said [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, it's not a priority. Just thinking it's something that should be given some thought too every now and then, a little [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ditto [11:55] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah [11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: It'd be cool to have, granted. [11:55] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that is the problem, the list on interesting topics gets really long quite really easy [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Verhicles / border crossing and large regions are more neededand important. [11:56] Kayaker Magic: And moving seated avatars! [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:56] Mircea Kitsune: Thought to bring it up since I got the imI got the impression that at this day, Opensim is slowly reaching the point of "as good as it can get" (not yet but much closer). So new features might be a priority too perhaps [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I second vechicles [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: -c [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: what do you mean moving seated avatars? [11:56] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Why is it that our avatars capsules are so large? [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: man, I can't type properly today. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: BlueWall because it was easier at the time [11:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: however, Robert claims he has a new capusle in the pipeline [11:57] Kayaker Magic: I mean mantis #6121 et all [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: that is one of those things i mentioned earlier [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: that are being jammed up by other things at the moment [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim has many open issues, such as the 6121 [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: I can't answer for capsule size in ODE, Teravus would know but he has not been around [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya ODE likely will not change [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: Roberst work is for Bulletsim only [11:58] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if we expect a huge code contribution/merge, we have to be careful - especially if the merge might contain code touching certain paths. [11:58] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: So, some things have to wait. [11:58] vegaslon plutonian: yes robert has the capsule sketched out in the code it is just not hooked up yet [11:59] Fearghus McMahon: could of course always try to bribe...err i mean sponsor a developer ;) [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: are particles btw improved ? [11:59] Dahlia Trimble: sponsor? o.0 [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: well its not that simple with Robert [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: this kind of merge is not a good thing, imo [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: robert works for Intel [11:59] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds like the bounty system of some other open source projects ;) [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: Justin has been experimenting with that [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: if anyone wants to sponsor justin [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: he has a link he can give you [12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Harder since IIRC Opensim doesn't have an economy system [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but response, has not been high :) [12:00] Dahlia Trimble: *cough* sponsorship might be a good way to get pathfinding *cough* [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: there ya go [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think there's a s lot of interest in sponsoring opensim work [12:00] Mircea Kitsune: Sadly [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia why dont you setup one of those things like Justin has? [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: Still like to know whats not simple with bullet [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya you might need to give it some more time justin [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: December is not a good month to launch that [12:00] Fearghus McMahon: hope it works out though [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe not :) [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, Particles is a recent interest of mine as I was working on a particle generator. There are a few features that are not implemented in SL. I have several reports to file related to particles. [12:01] Fearghus McMahon: nod...december is indeed a bad month [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: A lot of people say they are itnerested but not many actually do it;) [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya this is a bad month to get people to dish out on that [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we need to push on it more is all [12:01] Fearghus McMahon: still need to get my salery and already not know where the money went [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: give it time [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: true, I wasn't relying on it anyway ;) [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: I just wante dto see if there was interest in the route. But as you say, Dec is not a good month really [12:01] Fearghus McMahon: donations for osgrid still coming in neb? [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: what is your gittip url Justin? [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: can you paste it here? [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: well, priority one is the servers running. and energy is no free. no nabedan that hamster wheel did not worked [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Gotta feed the hamster at some point though. [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: https://www.gittip.com/justincc/ [12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: So requires monies anyway [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: heh [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: heheh [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: thanks, feel free to pass that around everyone, its a good experiment [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: not sure what I will do with my $1 a week, maybe buy a car :) [12:02] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: my personal list of interest points is just pretty long with things related to opensim [12:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: hahah [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: what is gittip? [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: Virtual car [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: can you explain gittip a bit Justin? [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it's a way of trying to crowdfund patronage for individuals, mainly people doing open-source work [12:03] Mircea Kitsune: Wow... someone is trying to support people doing open-source work? Sounds too good to be true [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: Other words, if you want to get sits fixt pay justin :) [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: A bit of a version of flattr but for people, not projects? [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: is there still problem with sitting? [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: not really, I still spend my own time where possible - getting money would just allow me to spend a bit more time on all the issues people need fixed [12:04] Mircea Kitsune: I haven't tested sitting, someone probably should [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: I have, Justins fixes worked great for me [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: I'll try too [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yep [12:05] Kayaker Magic: Sitting works fine for me, it is moving the avatar after sitting that I need. [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: works perfect [12:05] Mircea Kitsune: yep, looks all good [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: mouselook works. if this linked set [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: it is Richardus [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: stand works too [12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Mouselook view position is also correct [12:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: nice fixes [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: nice, finly dont need to look at dust anymore [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it took quite a lot of time to work this stuff out [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: haha ya [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: that was a very long running hard to catch bug [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: how to force more rotation/quaternion knowledge into my head, which is never pleasant [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: but probably good in the long run [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: next week this moon bench is linked ? [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess I should link that up now [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: its a good test [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I did link up all the couches at Lbsa [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: Let's do it now :) [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: but forgot about moon couch [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: lunch time for me, bye all :) *waves* [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: The script might need updating though [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [12:07] Kayaker Magic: I found an undocumented feature in the InWorldz grid that lets you choose your exit location from a seat! [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: Unless each pillow has its own llSetPos IIRC. That makes it sittable in a linkset [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Dahlia [12:07] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: bye dahlia [12:07] logger sewell: bye Dahlia [12:07] Mircea Kitsune: Later [12:07] Kayaker Magic: Will have to try it here and see if it works... [12:07] Fearghus McMahon: tc Dahlia [12:08] Mircea Kitsune: I can still be hare for a bit to test it, if anyone's linkig the couch now [12:08] Kayaker Magic: ..No wait, it depends on the ability to MOVE A SEATED AVATAR! [12:08] Mircea Kitsune: Could be a good occasion since many people are around [12:08] Fearghus McMahon: exit location of a seat? [12:08] Fearghus McMahon: ejector seats? [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: i dont see the use in "move seated avatar" i cannot place that option [12:09] Kayaker Magic: move a seaed avatar == mantis #6121 [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yay [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: moon couch is fixed [12:09] Mircea Kitsune: Working fine here! [12:09] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: now you know that the seating places belong to the couch ;) [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: and it still works [12:09] Mircea Kitsune: Yep, all perfect [12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Nifties [12:09] logger sewell: have a good week all i need to scoot :) [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, logger [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: seems to work fine [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: honestly, I hear you. Really do hope to get some progress on that soon [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I should be going soon. I need to setup another test of 0.7.6 [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: If I click the main prim, it chooses a pillow. If I rlick a specific pillow, it sits on that one. Perfect behavior :) [12:10] Mircea Kitsune: Later [12:11] Kayaker Magic: Great work Neb! [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok moon couch is copyable if anyone wants one [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: most times i move avatar the set in linkset with root. and sofar i know that works fine. [12:11] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I should be trying out that git commit state ;) [12:11] Mircea Kitsune: Yay [12:11] Kayaker Magic: Love the sit fixes! [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: bye anbdrew [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: moon included [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: haha [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Richardus [12:11] Fearghus McMahon: cool [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go too. Bye folks [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: want to see something else i made [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [12:11] Mircea Kitsune: The sit fix and mouselook jumpy camera fix are some of the best changes this week [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:11] Kayaker Magic: Ditto, bye all! [12:11] Fearghus McMahon: tc justin [12:12] Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: bye justin [12:12] Mircea Kitsune: sure [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: what has neb made now? [12:12] Mircea Kitsune: Bye [12:12] Fearghus McMahon: and kayaker too [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you want me to wait? [12:12] Mircea Kitsune: Is it scripted? [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Mesh objects for the state outlines? [12:12] Fearghus McMahon: oh i saw that one on G+ [12:13] Mircea Kitsune: Ah, mesh. Nice\ [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haa