Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-15

[10:58] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit.. [10:58] lCastRayTimingTest: starting [10:59] Kayaker Magic: I have a problem I wwas going to turn in as a Mantis, but it changes from grid to grid. [11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: What is really improved in 0.8.2.1 i do not see any need to install that version [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: There is fixes for attachments [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: mostly [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of problem Kayaker [11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That where already in 0..8.2.0 right ? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so Richardus [11:01] Kayaker Magic: In Kitely it now takes llCastRay >600 ms to run in 0.8.2.0 but here it is a more reasonable time, sort of like it used to be before 0.8.2.0 in Kitely [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: thats the whole point of adding a version lol [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: if it didnt change why would we change the number? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hmm wierd not sure Kayaker [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: there was some changes to it [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: you can change the version you run in OpenSim.ini [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: for llCastRay [11:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, the need to be more clear about what is improved compared to 0.8.2 [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: it was to fix an incompatibility [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: that came up at OSC [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC* [11:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i would swear the fixt that already in 0.8.2 [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: nope [11:02] Kayaker Magic: I asked at Kitelty what version of llCastRay they were using and they said V1, the same one as they were using before [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it was all in post-fixes [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: diva was going to update it but then she said she would wait [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: and do new version instead [11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh well, good time to update/ it's only the code that need to be replaced [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: did they change physics engines or anything Kayaker? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: xengine hasnt changed much if at all [11:04] Kayaker Magic: I do recall hearing at one of these meetings, someone had a complete version of llCastRay that was huge and slow... [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I guess no one is coming today [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hmm well we have v2 and v3 now [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: while they are improved [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: they are crazy slow compared to SL [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and not super accurate [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: many things seem to be able to trip it up [11:05]  Kayaker Magic: Kitely lets you change between ODE and BulletSim, and there  didn't used to be a difference in llCastRay [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: but its fairly good [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea i was mostly just wondering if anything else changed [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: that could maybe be the cause [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: v1 behavior should not have changed [11:06] Kayaker Magic: V1 of llCastray was easy to trip up also, but it wasn't so slow. Which castray is running here on Wright Plaza? [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i am not sure id have to look 1 sec [11:08] Lucy Afarensis: No meeting today ? [11:08] Kayaker Magic: Yes! [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: there is no one showed up but us so far :) [11:08]  Kayaker Magic: I am already bugging Neb about a Mantis I want to submit [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: christmas time everyone disappears :) [11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nahm neb. cannot believe there so many bad guys :) [11:09]  Kayaker Magic: InWorldz has some help from PhysX to do llCastRay, and it is blindingly fast there. [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Wright plaza doesnt have llCastRay version set [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: so its whatever the default is [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see [11:10]  lCastRayTimingTest: starting [11:10]  lCastRayTimingTest: time per llCastRay call: 0.029665 [11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: castray is nasty thing to understand [11:11]  Kayaker Magic: I am running a timing test, do you see the results? [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the default appears to be v1 [11:11]  lCastRayTimingTest: time per llCastRay call: 0.030088 [11:11]  Lucy Afarensis: yes [11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: so i can safely say this region is v1 as well [11:11]  Kayaker Magic: 30ms is crazy slow, but on some grids it is 100ms and on Kitely it  is >600ms!!!!!???? [11:12] Kayaker Magic: They say they have the default V1 llCastRay on Kitely [11:12] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: blames cloud computing ? [11:12] Kayaker Magic: lol [11:15] Kayaker Magic: I just ran the timing test on InWorldz (using PhysX for physics) and lLCastRay takes only 3ms there. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: InWorldz is not opensimulator [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: do not compare it to opensim [11:15] Kayaker Magic: It has taken around 25ms here until recently. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: the code is very different [11:16] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, they say the same thing in InWorldz. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya nothing wrong with that [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but the code diverged long ago [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: so its not really a fair comparison at this point [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: we just do things differertly [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you though that is because of xengine [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and how it handles threading [11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I hope the whole HG friends, IM offline get fixt soon. it's important part [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: its terrible [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: we really need a new script engine [11:17] Kayaker Magic: How Xengine handles threading here or in InWorldz? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: here [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: they dont have xengine [11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That too neb. [11:17]  Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I know they don't have the llSleep problem.... [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya we need something like that that can handle threading in more sane way [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i do not beleive their engine is cross platform though [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it is windows only [11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. booting sdims with 0.8.2.1 [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: or i should say for .net [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: maybe eventually that will work on linux [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: not now though [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: that is the problem we have [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: we could make an engine that is comparible to inworldz [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but it would only work on windows, or only on linux [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to make a truly cross platform solution to this problem [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it can be done though im sure [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: avination has a way improved engine [11:20] Kayaker Magic: Switch to Java! [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but it only runs on mono [11:20] Kayaker Magic: (hehe) [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so its not suitable for core [11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Bleh. mono. am complete done with mono [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol it works good enough [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC ran on mono :) [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ist mostly a matter of using what you know [11:22]  Kayaker Magic: I'm happy with mono. [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: there is really very little difference in performance [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: generally the performance diference is a result of lack of expertise [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: in the platform [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: more than the platform itself [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: you should always use what feels most comfortable [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing wrong with that :) [11:23] Kayaker Magic: Just ran the timing test on SL, it takes 15ms to call llCastRay, more like I used to get here. [11:23] Lucy Afarensis: I'm running both on different servers works about the same [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Kayaker i had a though [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: the xengine timer thing [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: might be a factor [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: MinTimerInterval = 0.08 [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its probably this [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: is why its faster here [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: than kitely [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: be the first thing to try anyway [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: if you even can [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its in the [Xengine] sectino [11:24] Kayaker Magic: How come Kitely used to get faster results from llCastRay? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: that i can not say [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i am not a kitely user or even know how their system works [11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and you told kitley is extreme slow ? [11:25] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but I thought I would try it here and submit a mantis if the same thing happened. [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Oren is a core developer [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: that is fine [11:25] Kayaker Magic: As I wander the Metavers though, I get different results... [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: that is to be expected [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: probably forever [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:26] Kayaker Magic: On a sandbox here in OSGrid I got 100ms [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: plaza? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: or private? [11:26] lCastRayTimingTest: starting [11:26] lCastRayTimingTest: time per llCastRay call: 0.029801 [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: you can use "Sisyphus" to test [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its running mono 4.3 [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: with Bulletsim [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its a large var though [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 1536x1536 [11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh that is a nice var size. is that size working a bit this days ? [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: seems fine [11:27] Kayaker Magic: Paradise was where I tried it, Wave Beach [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: Sisyphus runs very well [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: thats my physics sandbox [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i beat the hell out of it [11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: whgat is Sisyphus ? [11:28] Kayaker Magic: I will try Sisyphus next [11:28] Lucy Afarensis: osgrid ? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Sisyphus was punished by greek gods [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: to push a big stone up a hill for all eternity [11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: how many prims did you fire into that var ? [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i had over 100k spheres once [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: someone turned on my rezzer and left [11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: He's lucky the stone did not push him [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: 2 days later i noticed [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it still had not crashed [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i was even able to log in and delete all the spheres [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and it recovered normally [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a picture [11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Can you test 540000 prims ?:) [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/116133_physical_spheres_bulletsim.png [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/116133_physical_spheres_bulletsim2.png [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hehe that one [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: the entire sim was full of spheres [11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if it works with 540000 prims it's really good and beat SL [11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what viewer you use now neb ? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: well once you get to a certain point [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: you dont even see all the movement anymore [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its just too many updates [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so you mostly just see a lot of static spheres [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: so, it's not the server possible but more bandwidth [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and some very choppy movement [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer is only capaable of handling so many updates [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its very far from 100k [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: more like 20k maybe [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: if that even [11:32] lCastRayTimingTest: starting [11:32] lCastRayTimingTest: time per llCastRay call: 0.030277 [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: it may even be below 10k [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to really know [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: you cant really track that many objects [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its just not possible [11:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SOme smart code in the server that not send updates to avatars that are to far away mabye helps. and only start send it when you close enough ? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: hardware is a factor [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That explains also why the move modern things more client side [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: yes any FPS type game [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: would have very limited to no server side physics [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: mostly just object location tracking [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: with very limited amounts of objects [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: mostly just delivering variables [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: that inflluence the client side physics [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: also they fake stuff a lot [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: with scripted physics [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and particles [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: its all about overwhelming you enough you dont notice [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: we could do that kind of stuff here too a bit [11:35] Kayaker Magic: I'm starting to think I don't want a physics enging, perhaps just a collision engine and scrited physics for things that want it. [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it takes very skilled artists [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: to create that kind of stuff though [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: in convincing manner [11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If we get rid of the SL viewer much more is possible [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: in time [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not want to say to much right now. but i expect next year we come back on it [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: in time yes [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya its interesting what melanie was talking about [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that sounds promising [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: have to see what comes of that [11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: did i mis something neb ? i read so much this days [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: at OSCC she was on the viewer panel [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: she was saying they are creating a new viewer [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: with a modern game engine [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: they are exploring different options [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: very light on details so far [11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha.. the ... viewer i guess [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it sounds good [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: not many showed up today :) [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: I will show up next week to [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: if you guys want we can meet [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: i know everyone is busy with holidays [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: there wont be much in terms of opensim updates im sure over the next couple weeks [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure Ubit will continue his work no doubt [11:40]  Kayaker Magic: I'll be visiting with poor bandwidth and a laptop, might make it here.... [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ok well no worries if you cant [11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Then i hope ubit is shooting the right stuff in the sky :) [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: looks like he is working on parcel stuff now [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: parcel bans and i guess calculating land area for that [11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: DOes he implement the parcel privacy option tou you now hav ein sl ? peolle seems intressted in that [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yep [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: he is working on it [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure its 100% yet [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but im sure it is mostly working [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: some math errors i think [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes the privacy is extending beyond borders [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: because of rounding issues [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: or something [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: he is trying to figure it out [11:43] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's funny because those settings should be integer math ... [11:43] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: parcel borders are along flat integer values [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its non square parcels [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that are the problem i suspect [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: you can make crazy patterns [11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: are there round parcels? [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: no but they can have more than 4 sides [11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no, tetris parcels [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: L shapes [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: or O shapes [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: etc.. [11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: i thought you can only cut along numbers every 4 m [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: grin, O shape in tetris would be mean. [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but you can make non square shape parcels [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: you could make a parcel that is a + [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: also it joins parcels [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: owned by same person [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: even if they dont touch [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its complicated [11:45] Lucy Afarensis: Been interesting but I must leave early [11:45] Lucy Afarensis: bye [11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sure, but the borders would be on numbers dividable by 4 [11:46] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ciaoo Lucy [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea I can only really say what ive been seeing him say in IRC [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and from his patch comments [11:46] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye lucy [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i havent actually looked at his code [11:47] Wright Plaza reception desk linked shouts: I am sorry, you have taken too long to make a choice. Please click on me again to re-select the menu [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: sheera I suspect some of this parcel stuff [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: has to do with landing spot too maybe [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its not just the parcel boundry possible that is the problem [11:49] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ok, I guess he'll figure it out ^^ [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: or maybe when you are clicking on the map too to teleport [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: hey Ubit [11:50] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        7d8b783: 2015-12-05 08:30:30 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:50] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi Ubit :-) [11:50]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi ubit [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: you can explain now :) [11:50] Ubit Test: (oops a meeting :) ) [11:50]  Ubit Test: hi [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I was just relaying kind of what you were doing with the parcel issues [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont fully know myself even [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: not enough to explain it anyway [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:51]  Ubit Test: well last changes where math fix/simplification [11:51]  Ubit Test: but i did changes on overall regions access [11:52]  Ubit Test: we had diferent criteria about telebugs landpoins even bans in several places on code [11:52]  Ubit Test: so did tried to make them identical... [11:52]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: quite a bit of cleanup then ... [11:52]  Ubit Test: access check on Query to region... [11:53]  Ubit Test: then again on newclient [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:53]  Ubit Test: and on agent makeroot the excution of telehubs and lanpoints.. if active [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i know there are certain times those fail a lot for me [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: expecially on login [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: to my own regions [11:54] Ubit Test: well i changed a few rules [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i seem to not always land at the hub or landing spot [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but at like 128/128 [11:54] Ubit Test: now gods and estate manager are nor affected by bans or telehubs etc [11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sofar telehub works fine for me. [11:54] Ubit Test: err and region owners [11:54] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: would there be a possibility of checking the accessibility of a region or better even of a parcel via OSL script? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but only when god mode is active? [11:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: like in a teleporter script [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: please do not make it do that when god mode is off [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: that would be a disaster [11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: also i can TP to my own parcel without ending at the telehub [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: telehubs should always work when god mode is disabled [11:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: to know in advance if the target is online and capable of receiving an avatar [11:55] Ubit Test: well i read the active permitions.. [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: just being a god should not be crieria for ignoring telehub [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: that would be a complete break in my opinion [11:56] Ubit Test: and if you do break a telehub ? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: im definitely reliant on that functionality [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: being a god in literally like every grid [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: means i would never land at a telehub ever [11:56] Ubit Test: yeap you wont [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: noooo [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: seriousl;y [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: do not do that [11:57] Ubit Test: its a needed safe issue [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: it should be you turn god mode on [11:57]  Ubit Test: i was like this neb [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: then it works [11:57] Ubit Test: i think [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: nOOO [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: you have to ctrl+alt+g [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: then it ignores [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: please do not change this [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: you are breaking it if you do [11:57]  Ubit Test: i think godlike already skiped checks [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: it worked [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i use it every day [11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Never found that option ok know it where there. but when your at the telehhub you can TP around the sim [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: 1000 times a day [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: it needs to work that way [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: it always has [11:58] Ubit Test: welel godlike only is checked on access control [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ok well as long as if you have god mode turned off [11:58] Ubit Test: then its current permissions [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i land at a telehub [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i wont complain [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: if that changes I am going to protest for sure [11:59] Ubit Test: but i see god active by default on grid gods here [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we are very reliant on this working [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: its not [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: im a grid god and my god is turned off in viewer [11:59] Ubit Test: ohh yes it is [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: i only activate it when i need it [11:59]  Ubit Test: i changed with dan [11:59] Ubit Test: it has been like that [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: you cant just change this stuff [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: people are reliant on it [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: not without discussing it first [12:00] Ubit Test: ( i actually didn't change objects rights.. it was like that ) [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its litereally always worked this way [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: god mode needs to be off by default [12:00] Ubit Test: well on objects acording to dan grid gods can change without asking in viewer [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: you can seriously destroy aregion accidentyly [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ive done it [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: having god powers on by default is asking for disaster [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: if i can do it [12:01]  Ubit Test: i know.. messed up a swiming pool at avination :) [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: anyone can [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ive literally erased 1/2 a region [12:01]  Ubit Test: but that is objcts... [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: on accident [12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That is why i turn grid gods always off in the ini file. not sure why it seems enabled [12:01]  Ubit Test: i was talking region access telehubs and landpoints [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: those need to work for gods [12:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: or it's metropolis config i compare with that is doing it wrong [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have ctrl+alt+g enabled [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: if your bar is not green [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: telehubs should work [12:02]  Entering god mode, level 255 [12:02]  Entering god mode, level 255 [12:02]  Ubit Test: well since i do read current permitions, guess the bypass is a side effect [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: its handy [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: otehrwise i can never test a telehub [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: unless i have an alt [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: that is insanely inconvienent for me [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and for lots of people [12:03] Ubit Test: but SL rules are no telehubs or landpoints for gods, region owners or estate managers [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt matter [12:03] Ubit Test: and thats how it is now in master [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its been this way for ever in OpenSim [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: please dont just break it becasue of SL [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: seriously [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: bad reason [12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh, it would suck if region owner cannot test the hub [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: not only region owner [12:04] Ubit Test: well don't see telehugs and landpoints as a break [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who is a estate manager it seems [12:04] Ubit Test: but as a security issue [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: if you ctrl+alt+g [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it ignores telehub [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: EASY [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: dont break this [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: this is how it has always worked [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i think even in SL [12:04]  Ubit Test: and how do you do that if the region has a broken telehug and doesn't let u get in ? [12:04] Ubit Test: telehug? lol [12:05] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: why is it a security issue for a god to land on a telehub? [12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think in estate manager the telehib or landing point still worked [12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: in secondlife. but long time ago [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: why would telehub prevent you acess? [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i dont understand [12:05] Ubit Test: not acordig to sl docs [12:05] Ubit Test: well bc this is opensim sim :p [12:05] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ah, ok, I can see it [12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sounds a design flaw from LL. [12:06] Ubit Test: it is not a design flaw.. makes all sense [12:06] Ubit Test: its a basic securtity thing [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: its super annoying for grid gods [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: can you make it so its only region gods? [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: and not grid gods? [12:06] Ubit Test: well being one as costs [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i can see region gods and estate managers needing it [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but as a grid god [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i dont need that [12:07] Ubit Test: i keep my fingers im my pockets at avn all the time :) [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: infact its very painful for me [12:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it start to get confusing. one thing i know for sure. only telehub override in god mode. [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: you would think grid gods would have console access [12:08]  Ubit Test: well as i said, current master, does not do them to gods, region owers or estate managers [12:08]  Ubit Test: landpoint also doesn't work for land owner [12:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Neb. grid gods sounds scary for me. that means the grid owner can mess on my server and sim ? that is how it sounds fo me [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: only if you enabled it [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a setting to allow or disallow grid gods in your region [12:08]  Ubit Test: grid gods are needed on many grids [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: yea this is going to be so annoying [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: this seriously makes my job a lot harder [12:09] Ubit Test: and do have lots of work helping ppl and fighting griffers [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i hate fixes that make things harder [12:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i know. but some grid suse wrong settings i think [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: means i need to have 2 avatars always now [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: one who is a god and one who isnt [12:10] Ubit Test: well i do agree on the object edition [12:10] Ubit Test: that is scary [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: that really sucks [12:10] Ubit Test: at avn i did tried to change that.. but mel didn't allow [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I am conerned [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we are replacing one security risk [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: with 10 others [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: not a good sollution [12:10] Ubit Test: mel wants full access so to fix griffing issues [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: we will be turning gods into griefers [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: as they all accidently destroy their regions [12:11] Ubit Test: well you also login at linux as root all the time? [12:11] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: shouldn't there be backups? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: if we do that for objects that is [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i never login to linux as root [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: i disable root [12:11] Ubit Test: well gods its same thing :) [12:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SHeera. backups are only good when you not need them :P [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: right [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: having god always active is a horrible idea [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we need options [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: if mel wont budge [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we need options [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: to configure it how you want [12:12]  Ubit Test: think it was always active already neb [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe some things [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: not all things [12:12]  Ubit Test: unless i did cam with merge... i didn't change that [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i can say for sure a lot of stuff didnt work [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: unless i ctrl+alt+g [12:12]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I do backups often [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: if you are saying stuff will work without that [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: get ready to hear about people destroying other peoples sims [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: its going to happen [12:13] Ubit Test: well i asked dan abotu that and seems he things it has always been like that [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya some things probably were [12:13] Ubit Test: the worse.. objects edition for grid gods [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not so worried about gods [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: as Estate managers [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: you said estate mangers have same power? [12:14] Ubit Test: only on telehubs and landpoints [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok good [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess thats not so bad then [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: i was more thinking objects was extending to estate managers too [12:14] Ubit Test: objects is another issue i didn't change... [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: that would have been disasterouis [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: still the telehub thing is annoying more than anything [12:15] Ubit Test: i changed region access... no bans for those privs [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: it annoys me when i have god mode enabled [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: you have to understand [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: Encitra has no LL terrain [12:15] Ubit Test: i also don't like it [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: this is seriously going to screw me up bad [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: we have Mesh terrain [12:15] Ubit Test: i also messed up regions [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: telehub failing == very very bad [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: sigh [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: this ruined my day [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: seriously [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know what i will do [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: im going to have to ask crista to undo this [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: for encitra grid [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: guess thats probably my only option [12:16] Ubit Test: Neb.. this things are never final :) [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: well you have valid points [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i see what you mean [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to argue against that [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting not everyone has grid god level access [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i take that for granted [12:16]  Ubit Test: sure im just defending what i did.. not that im enforcing it againts you [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i have that power on like 10 grids [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: so for me its super inconvienent [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: if literally every grid i can ever land at telehub [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: like OSCC [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the keynotes [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: also no terrain [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: its at like -10000 [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the terrain [12:17]  Ubit Test: well i did another change [12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: no telehub means falling forever [12:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not forever. you stop at 0 [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: this is same thing at Encitra [12:18] Ubit Test: do.. with that exceptions.. telehubs will always work... [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: no [12:18]  Ubit Test: landpoints will only work on some teleports [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: i have terrain set at like -1000 [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: you fall forever lol [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise you see the terrain [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: in the water [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: unless you sink it super deep [12:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol. i culd set terrain lower then 0. but my avatar never did go lower then 0 [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: there might be an option for that [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure now [12:19] Ubit Test: nahh you stop at -100 or -150 or -500 acording to physics engine lol [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: there might be differences too [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: between bullet and ode [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: even falling 100m under water feels like forever [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok. it's long ago i digged so deep. afraid i end at the other side of the world [12:19] Ubit Test: well put normal flat terrain there [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: you can see it [12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it visually scrtews up the model [12:19] Ubit Test: tps do check against' it [12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: you can see the terrain through the water in certain conditions [12:20] Ubit Test: transp textures don't work on terrain ? [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: you end up seeing a big square [12:20] Ubit Test: never tested [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: from high photos [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: looking down [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: you see a huge squarte in the water [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: unless its like really really deep [12:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes you always see a blue color [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: i have had people mention it and complain [12:21] Ubit Test: viewer places a ugly blue plane [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: anyway im sure we can figure something out i guess [12:21] Nebadon Izumi: maybe an option [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: how how telehubs are handled for gods [12:22] Ubit Test: yeap [12:22] Ubit Test: actually the objects thing also [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:22] Ubit Test: its worse imo [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: id love to give students god powers [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: if i could prevent them from erasing everything [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: so they could do parcel stuff and other things [12:23] Ubit Test: well changing the objcts part will impact my checks on telehubs also [12:23] Ubit Test: well but im also not doing that for the estate people [12:24] Ubit Test: (owner and managers ) [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: yea there is no reason we should not have more control than SL [12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its fine to have the options SL has [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: but that shouldnt be the only way [12:26] Ubit Test: well is also a security thing.. [12:26] Ubit Test: giving some powers, so ppl don't need to ask for gods help all the time [12:27] Ubit Test: well worse is the bugs i added and still don't know about lol [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: we need to be able to delegate more than SL offers [12:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well. late enough. going tom run [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks guys [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: good talks [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera 1 sec [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: i will send you the chat log [12:28] Ubit Test: well after that im tring to clean up some land issues [12:29] Ubit Test: some funtions where ok for 256m regions... terrible on large ones