Chat log from the meeting on 2013-06-18

 [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:03] Marcus Llewellyn smiles affably. :) [11:04] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Justin [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: Hello Justin [11:04] tx Oh: huhu [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin. hmm no network bandwidth slider ? [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: ah there [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: ? [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: trying kokua, because astra not good chgoice. but kokua is far from good to [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi marcus [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: moved bandwidth up. think that helps [11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Hi, Rich. [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: aha, TX oh. see what you mean whit compact view [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: Just a heads up we are not going to be doing the load test today [11:07] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: ID check from Fred.. I see 4 clouds [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: problem is i cannot close chui without closeing local chat [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully next week and if things go well maybe some small tests before next tuesday [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: 4 clouds here [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: found some issues with HG teleport we really need to address [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: do you have any ideas about why they are so heavy? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: just got time to install 0.7.6dev sandbox. what poblems neb. [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: Diva said that every asset / attachment etc generates 1 HTTP request for HG teleports right now [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think I will be looking to put in some diagnostics to detect things like number of outbound requests [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ohh [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: she mentioned something about zipping things up [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yah, fat-pipes [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: and outbound requests per second, etc. [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: so it becomes just 1 request instead of 100's [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm still not sure that will actually help, but I will defer to crista :0 [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: because you still need to request the assets, etc. [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly local teleports are already doing it, ya fat packs [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: i guess HG is not using them yet [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not sure either Justin, but every little bit helps [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: we need to eliminate the low hanging fruit [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we need to idenitfy the low hanging fruit first, of which you have at least one [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: right [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: well does this HG bug not push the connection / seconds for ineternet conenctions to the limit without fat pipe ? [11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Have you tried a mass teleport with very simple avatars, like ruths? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: having diagnostics will certainly make things easier to identify [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: works fine on non-hg but not hg [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Marcus I did previously but I didnt think it was a good test [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it will at least give us better clues [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: than looking at the black box and dribbling :) [11:11] Christina.Vortex @lfgrid.com:8002: yea hg tp right now is abit of a lag but i did hear that cinder is working on the firestorm end of the teleport [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya, actually with local avatars i teleported 20 fully dressed avatars [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps I should say the monolith [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: no problem [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i did it many times in a row [11:11] tx Oh: re [11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: If simple avatars see the same problems(or don't), then that's a valid data point. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: over HG with 10 Avatars I dont think there was even 1 fully succesful teleport [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: well fat packs need to be implemented [11:12] Primitive: Script running [11:12] Primitive: Script running [11:12] Primitive: Script running [11:12] Primitive: Script running [11:12] Primitive: Script running [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: if you recall how drastic border crossing improved when fatpacks got implemented [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, I think most people would still say borders crossings are terrible :) [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it was a significant improvement [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yes but it was way worse before [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: especailly with avatars like my Alien [11:13] Primitive: Script running [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. on my regions it dont work to bad.. hehe not sure how the connection is route. its 10ms round trip time [11:13] Primitive: Script runnisng [11:13] tx Oh: well, i have no problems with border crossing or hg (it works or it doesn't :-) [11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: I can remember much worse "limbo" times in the past cross borders. But we're nowhere near as smooth as SL has it. [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: HG teleporting is only bad when you have a mass of people teleporting simultaneously [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: well, melanie wants to donate her avination code for improving this [11:14] Christina.Vortex @lfgrid.com:8002: ha, sl sim crossings are still laggy for me [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: though we have agreed to wait until 0.7.6 release process starts because it could bring in regressions [11:14] tx Oh: and i don't loose attachments when i cross borders [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I think we still have plenty of time to make many improvements [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of the Community Conference that is [11:15] tx Oh: but i see still problems with link sets (programming them, edit them..) [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: easy for those weeks to tick by [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: and at some point we probably have to move off master in case a late change causes problems [11:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Is a 0.7.6 release on the horizon? [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: one chief issue is resolving the "unknown user" problems with hg visitors [11:16] Dahlia Trimble is online. [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: this is especially noticeable on the oscc regions [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: since everyone practically comes in via hg [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: It doesn't make OpenSim look awesome when there's a dozen of em. [11:17] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: have we nailed down how much of that is due to viewer caches [11:17] tx Oh: oh, do we test oscc today? [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's a major issue [11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: No load test today, tx. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: that does make life more difficult, though I have confirmed that my last change for this issue did not appear to help much [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: no I felt like we would just be wasting everyones time with another load test today [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: Well, old viewer keep used for long time. V3 viewers still have to much useibilty problems. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm hoping crista can come up with something - I still needto become more familiar with how hg works [11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: heh, maybe we need a NO-CACHE tag [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i am able to trigger some very nasty behavior with 10 of my own avatars [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: Diva wrote me a little dll to mass teleport everyone in the region [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: i wish avatars never where cached [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: type > teleport all "Wright Plaza/128/128/30" [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and it shoots everyone in region [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and over HG its bad [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: local grid performs much much better [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: it;'s quite easy - that would just be a slight addition to the existing "teleport user" console command [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya I just didnt want it out in the wild [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: or in core [11:19] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev         d7f3d7e: 2013-06-13 09:27:13 -0400 (Unix/Mono) [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: why not? [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: well you could use it to Dos regions at the moment [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i would be ok with it going into core once things improve [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: well, that's not particularly hard [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya once we tighten things up I think it would be good to be in core [11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: The same functionality would be pretty trivial with a script and osTeleportAgent. [11:21] Dahlia Trimble sees lots of clouds [11:21] Marcus Llewellyn: I see 5 clouds. [11:21] Vivian Klees: my inventory hasn't budge since I got here [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey sees 2 [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: hi robert [11:21] tx Oh: yeah, some white eggs sitting around [11:22] Robert Adams: hello all... I'm late again [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey mutters server side baking [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hello robert [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... why am I still a cloud? This doesn't normally happen to me. [11:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Robert [11:22] logger sewell: Hi Robert [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: hi robert :) [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah. Inventory is still trying to load. [11:22] tx Oh: justin, logger, andrew, dubrovna are clouds [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: robert, testing 0.7.6 sofar pretty happy with the 2 things i tried [11:22] Robert Adams: I just a go an "unable to upload xxx. Try again later." Oddness [11:22] logger sewell: yeh same here Andrew the sim dont like us today ^^ [11:22] tx Oh: robert and reborn are white [11:22] Fred.Appleby @hg.viewtwo.net:8654: I use a LibOMV system that HG teleport 20 ruth avatars, granted on a local network, seems to work well. More than 20 then the the home location seems to be lost [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: well I probably should have restarted the region before meeting [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Something changed since last week. [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: robert yeah, there's somelong standing race in that area [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: not even sure how long its been running [11:23] Robert Adams: is there a stress test after this meeting? [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: 4 days 9 hours [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: no load test today Robter [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Robert* [11:24] Robert Adams: k... thanks [11:24] tx Oh: i think my uptime record ist 60 days or so [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: memory is really high here too, I probably should have restarted it [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: MEMORY STATISTICS Allocated to OpenSim objects: 4458 MB OpenSim last object memory churn : 12.22 MB/s OpenSim average object memory churn : 14.747 MB/s Process memory : 6415 MB [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Is that all? ;) [11:25] tx Oh: 6gb [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: what is "memory churn"? [11:25] tx Oh: thats something [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: how much memory is going in and out Dahlia? [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: you dont use sgen here neb ? [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i Think anyway [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: no Richardus [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: in and out of what? [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: how much memory is being allocated per second [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: I have not seen any kind of improvement with sgen [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: i have sgen working with appdomain true. anyway appdomain true or false. it feels like with sgen you use a bit more memory [11:26] Dahlia Trimble: by objects? [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: not much point in using it [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: only not sure when sgen start to work :O [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: on the heap - some of the terminology needs improvement [11:27] Dahlia Trimble: or just a good definition [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: i keep useing sgen. want to know more [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: "help allocation rate" might be better [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: heap [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: sounds good :) [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: btw, what threadpool are you usingon oscc? SmartThreadPool? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: hmm let me check Justin [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: async_call_method = QueueUserWorkItem [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: ok. I recommend using unsafe - the unsafe simply refers to a security issue that is not relevabnt to us [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: it's quicker [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: aha. ok still use the default [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: will do [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: default might change after next release - it has been stp because older mono did not have a good threadpool implementation [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: but it seems much better with later mono [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: still on 3.0.7 [11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Is the minimum mono version gonna be bumped up soon? [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I would count 3.0.* as very much "later mono" [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: seeings as it's not out of beta yet [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: yes, will probably become 2.10 after next release [11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Cool. [11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: I noticed jenkins still used 2.4, and wondered. [11:32] tx Oh: i use mono 2.10.9 [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: 2.4.. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, 2.4.3 is currently the earliest mono opensim will work with [11:33] Marcus Llewellyn is using 3.0.3 at the moment. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: but this prevents things like being able to switch the default threadpool or use newer language features [11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: I presume Debian gets the blame for 2.4 [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, it was one of the factors [11:34] tx Oh: ok, so we all need to switch to 3.0.x ? [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: but even stable debian is now 2.10 [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: tx: ? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: 2.10.6+ i would say [11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. I use Debian, but compile mono myself. [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: really 2.10.8 would be my choice [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: i never use the build in mono (thats 3.0.4) but compile my own in userspace [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i think 3.0.7 works better then 3.10 [11:35] tx Oh: on debian is 2.10.8.1 [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm 2.10 :O [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ah btw if anyone was having trouble compiling libgdiplus because of libpng15 [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i found a repo on github that has this problem fixed [11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: I tried going up to 3.0.9 recently, but there's some problems with it's build process. [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i could not compile 3.0.9 [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: all the 3.0 are still beta [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: https://github.com/jsr38/libgdiplus [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i would try 3.0.7 first marcus [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i am running 3.0.12 [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: from git [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: using the above libgdiplus [11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: 3.0.3 is doing the job for now. I don't have to be on the very latest and shiniest. Hehe. [11:36] tx Oh: well just, i think it's ok if you developers can find a cut if you need mono 3.x [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: requiring people to use mono beta paCAKGES, let alone comilingit themsleves, is a barrier to using opensim [11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yeah, I think it is good to wait [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya mono 2.10.8 is nice and stable [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: but 2.3 is really getting old [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: 2.10 worked nice [11:38] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if we need features, we can fork our own repo and work from that [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: plus very few operating systems have mono 3 in thier repos [11:38] tx Oh: but if you need it for better gc, threading or syntax improvements... i think you should use best mono you can get things solved [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: opensuse actually does which is kind of surprising [11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: I was suprised when you told me Suse was using 3 [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks only uses mono (2.10.8) on a standalone or local mini grid. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but not all do yet [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: suse 12.3 is useing 3.0.4 [11:39] Robert Adams: does moving to 2.10 mean movement to .NET 4? [11:39] Dahlia Trimble uses and likes 2.10.8.1 [11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: but not all vps hosters have recent linux versions. so 2.10 is best available i hope [11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we can change our toolset [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya that will be fine Richardus [11:39] Kayaker Magic: I was having scripting issues in mono 2.4, now all better in mono 3.0.2 [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.4 is aincent [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: it really is [11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to upgrade to Mint 15 soon. I don't know what version of mono it has. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: probably whatever ubuntu has [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: 2.10.8 likely [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: i use mono 3 because the say you have less problems with http connections [11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Ubuntu 13.04 has 2.10.8.1 [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't know about that. Some features in Ubuntu that are over two years old aren't in Mint. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: then thats likely what mint would have [11:40] tx Oh: is mint based on ubuntu? i thought it's debian [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: they have both flavors tx [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ubuntu and debian [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Mint 14 has 2.10.8 [11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Mint is an Ubuntu variant, but also has a Debian version available. [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: I think the http stuff should be moved to a separate process anyway [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the ubuntu version is the more popular of the two [11:41] tx Oh: then i would favour the debian flavor of mint [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Mint has several versions available. [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the Ubuntu(?) versions uses Cinammon desktop and the other uses MATE. [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the Debian version is based on the development branch of Debian [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: wheren Ubuntu is based on LTS [11:42] logger sewell: i use Mint and really like the interface of it [11:42] tx Oh: i think i should go slackware :-) [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: thats a good choice too [11:42] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Haa [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: you should try opensuse 12.3 [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... I used that years ago before moving to Fedora. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: its really improved [11:42] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I was a die-hard Slacker, but love Suse [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: um... correction. Slackware to Slackware 96, then RedHat before Fedora. [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: dont oike ubuntu anymore. only the 10.04 version is good above that ubuntu is useless [11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't think I've used slack since the 90's. Hehe. [11:43] tx Oh: i remember me traveling the world with slackware floppies and install them on all continents [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:43] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: "D [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: kubuntu 12.04 isnt bad [11:43] tx Oh: thats true, i did this [11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: I tend to use Ubuntu for a desktop, Debian for server. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: tx, can't do that now. People don't have floppy drives on computers any more.. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lol [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: except me... [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: I do have an old Pentium II that still has a floppy drive. [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: but use the "usb" version very rare [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, any other opensim issues anybody wants to discuss this week? [11:44] tx Oh: thats true, too. but i still have a working 5 1/4" [11:44] Kayaker Magic: In a private conversation, Melanie told me the Avination fix to mantis 6121 would not work in OpenSim, but then she added a cryptic note to the mantis about donating the code with some other fixes. I've also heard her mentioned here today about donating some HG code. Does this include the seated avatar fixes? What is the status of this? [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I submitted three mantis reports with patches a few days ago. [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes, I saw the e-mail [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Kayaker let me pull up mantis [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe we need her work merged first? [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, np. Just minor issues. [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe she fixes it [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that will be after the release though [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: just started to play a bit with 0.7.6 verhicle stuff. so not found much sofar [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, question. Are the only messages from groups that can be sent out to offline users ones generated by group notices? [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: you expect to have 0.7.6 before auguust justin ? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya that wont happen until after the Stable release is posted [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: which should be soon [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: her work involves sitting avatars, so maybe it works [11:46] Richardus Raymaker: oh. one thing when i digged in the 0.7.6 configs. i hope there's good documentation for the new settings for users [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: I imagine that means it requires extra changes. I have not had a chance to look at seated avatar changes - atm I am focussing on the pref issues of oscc and fixing things which block the next release [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: new settings? [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: question, think bluawall maby knows. whats not in core with grid services in 0.7.6 ? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: generally when we get close to a release date, big potentially breaking changes are set aside until after the release [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: andrew, yes lokie offline IM, and groups if im right [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't think we've actually ever done that before [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: this would actually be a new thing [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: although it's what should happen really [11:47] Kayaker Magic: OK, I run into people all over the metaverse dying for fixes to seated avatars and I just want to keep the isue warm. [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: fair enough. [11:48] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: i agree with nebadon. lots of people dont agree with Linus Torvalds thats saying the same for kernals [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: well its not really my policy, I am a bit more of a risk taker [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: bah, that's because you're not a professio nsoftware engineer.... [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: haha [11:49] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lol [11:49] tx Oh: i love the way how the darktable photo developer software get managed. this project really evolves like hell. a pleasure to see this phantastic open source project. if you need a good raw developer for your photos, try this (*n*x only) [11:50] tx Oh: i wish the developement of opensim could have these kind of spirit too [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't agree with dropping the odd/even kernel release thing they used to do. [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: oh TX, this days you can implement linux very good in windows with virtualbox. seamless ! [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I saw that e-mail - I will try and take a look soon [11:50] Kayaker Magic: Hey! We have great developers also! [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: conference organizing is a real time eater as well :) [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin is repeating himself :) [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: comparing opensimulator to a photo app is a bit unfair hehe [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: opensimulator is an extremely complicated beast with many heads [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: we have a bunch of maniacal egotists who can just about work together [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, and accomodates people with different goals [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Justing: Isn't that rather typical of big projects? ;) [11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if you think about all the installations and projects built on OpenSim, iot's a little like walking on eggshells to do major changes [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: well. i wish i could do more. then i could fix the viewer to :) [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: true :) You have to be a little crazy to do open-source [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: especially cross platform [11:52] tx Oh: i'm the last who would say the developers are lame. it's just the way how they work together. if i read here, what melanie like to 'offer'.. [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: and, it's almost like running in front of a firing squat to push them in :D [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: yeah, not helped by the fact we don't even control the 'protocol' [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: its different when you have only 1 platform to worry about [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: firing squad, lol [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: and your software only does 1 particular thing [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd like to be able to do more with OS development but its just too big and complicated and Ihave too many other projects to do for me to spend the time to get in to something as large as OS. [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a pretty big project [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: with a lot of different areas [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: cross platoform really complicates things [11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: one thing I would like to throw out is a feature for HG... [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Largest project I worked on was only around 50,000 lines of source. That was at a company I used to work at. [11:53] tx Oh: what feature is it? [11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: when jumping from grid to grid, some things should be set [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: heh, opensim is 500k+ [11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: they should come from the grid you are entering... [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. [11:54] tx Oh: i'm actually in a project with 1mio. lines of perl source code :-( [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: so, what do people think about the idea of a "hgresponse" ? [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: 1mill of Perl code? eek [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: ewwww perl [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx0BiTh8NEs&hd=1 [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: what would be in that response? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: :) [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: one thing that is needed is the map url of the gird so the V3 can see what is there [11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: For things like map urls, Bluewall? [11:54] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes [11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: Nevermind. :) [11:55] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that is one thing [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently working on Perl code to convert schematics created in one program for use in another [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall diva said that should be possible [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: sounds like that's getting into the realm of having hg support explicitly in a viewer [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the map thing [11:55] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I can't think of any others ATM, and it would need to be secure [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think i also recall her saying its not a simple fix though [11:55] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: justin, it would need to be there [11:55] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: << in the viewer [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: Unknown UserUMMTGUN2 is Bluewall? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: seems reasonable o me, as a capability