Chat log from the meeting on 2010-08-10

[09:56] Penny Lane is Online

[09:56] Penny Lane is Online

[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[09:59] Hiro Protagonist: Hi Penny :)

[10:00] Master Dubrovna: Hi everyone

[10:00] Hiro Protagonist: Hello Mr. D

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi

[10:00] Hiro Protagonist: Rira :)

[10:00] Richardus Raymaker: hiro

[10:01] Penny Lane waves and heads for the coffee

[10:01] Hiro Protagonist: heehee, I opted for an energy shot ftw

[10:01] Hiro Protagonist: cutting into my siesta hour lol

[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[10:03] Hiro Protagonist: I got a new desk fan, so I no longer have the excuse it's too hot

[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: Hi justin

[10:03] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Justin :)

[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello gentlepeople

[10:05] Snoopy Pfeffer is Online

[10:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all :)

[10:05] Dave Coyle is Online

[10:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow not many ppl today

[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi snoopy

[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, seems to be like that right now. perhaps due to summer

[10:06] Richardus Raymaker:, still vacation time

[10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes true

[10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: I had a look at the email module

[10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: it looks like receiving emails is not implemented yet

[10:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: right?

[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: I think there's some problem with remote admin.

[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: don't know

[10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well there is no code that requests emails from the mail server

[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: need to keep eye on it. but it seems when you shutdown it goed in some loop and then dont accept shutdown. or the region where already crashed to much

[10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: just sending is implemented

[10:07] Penny Lane: Hey Dahlia :-)

[10:07] Dave Coyle is Online

[10:07] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)

[10:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Dahlia

[10:07] Chikura Ciaco: hi all

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: hello

[10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Rich crashed regions sometimes cannot be restarted using remote admin

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: thats bad

[10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: worst case you have to kill the process

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: youi get some error about filename. need to search it back in log then

[10:08] Richardus Raymaker: that happend tonigh snoopy

[10:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: k

[10:09] Chikura Ciaco: can someone tell me why i cant delete my Trash folder?

[10:09] Dave Coyle is Online

[10:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Have you ever been able to delete the trash folder?

[10:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow true I experience the same

[10:09] Chikura Ciaco: nope

[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: its disabled for now. else it deletes more then you want

[10:09] Snoopy Pfeffer: is it?

[10:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If you delete the tarsh bin, where do items you delete later on go to?

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: strange things seems to happen. thats why its disabled

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: we send then to a black hole andrew

[10:11] Chikura Ciaco: so i cant actually del. my trash :)

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello, sorry was afk from this computer

[10:11] Penny Lane: Does anyone know whether Revolution Smythe succeeded in his sim mods last week to work with viewer object caching?

[10:11] Snoopy Pfeffer: wb Neb

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: had to get jhurliman some data

[10:11] Richardus Raymaker: wb neb

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: Neb, a question: how to you check for 0 fps from outside?

[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: From the sound of it I thought Revolution had completed them, but maybe not

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: we use Monit

[10:12] Richardus Raymaker: use json snoopy

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: me too

[10:12] Penny Lane: JCC: cool, hopeso

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use the remote admin function Neb?

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: there is a blog post dave wrote some where

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: health status?

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: cool

[10:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you have the url?

[10:12] Richardus Raymaker: what blog ?

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: http://coyled.com/

[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: yes, ofcorse i solved it different

[10:13] Dave Coyle: http://coyled.com/2010/07/07/monit-and-opensim/

[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: nothimng new in that blog

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: oh hey dave

[10:13] Dave Coyle: hi

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: everyone stop talking bad about dave now

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm that info is old

[10:14] Dave Coyle: hehe

[10:14] Dave Coyle: no it's not

[10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe

[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: onoly the console port is used. that never worked for me

[10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: well that does not catch all crashes

[10:14] Dave Coyle: we're using it on some of the plazas

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya Lbsa uses it

[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: oops sorry gotta run... bye all :)

[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: console port seems not to be remote admin. i never got a clear answhere about that

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya Dahlia

[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia, thanks for the 15 minutes :)

[10:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Dahlia

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: you have to set the remote admin port

[10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: well there is a remote admin function to check the health status of a region

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: but monit doesnt monitor remote admin port

[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: i hope 0.7 have a seperate remote admin port. remote console is not really usefull for now.

[10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus it already does have a seperate port

[10:15] Frank Northmead is Online

[10:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: but that remote admin port responds if there is a 0 fps crash

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: even in 0.6.9

[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: have you considered getting the region stats over json?

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: we are Justin

[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: i never found a working remote admin port, seperate

[10:16] Dave Coyle: that post explains how we detect 0 fps. doesn't require remote admin.

[10:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: a 0 fps add could be added to the health check remote admin function

[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: so, tell me later how to set remote admin port

[10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I have 0 fps crashes your scripts would not detect

[10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: I see the rules

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: under [Network]

[10:17] Dave Coyle: such as?

[10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok I see

[10:17] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ConsoleUser = "Test" ConsolePass = "secret" http_listener_port = 9000 console_port = 0 default_location_x = 1000 default_location_y = 1000

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: console_port = 0

[10:18] Richardus Raymaker: under network i only see console port

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: you set the port there

[10:18] Richardus Raymaker: tried that once, i will try again, but it seems remote admin dont worked on that port set

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ah Remote Admin is something else

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: we dont use that do we Dave?

[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: have you used Melanie's remote console?

[10:19] Dave Coyle: i've never used it

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the GUI is a bit slow

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the command line one works great

[10:19] Dave Coyle: justin: yes, we use it on a bunch of plazas

[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: console is not really needed, i need a secure remote admin port. just seperate port number is enough

[10:19] Dave Coyle: well, the rest console, if you mean that

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i thought Richardus meant

[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: yes. works well? I've never tried it

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus we dont use Remote Admin module

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: works great Justin

[10:20] Dave Coyle: it doesn''t reconnect when the sim gets restarted, so you have to do that manually, but that's only a minor inconvenience

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya that would be typical of any rcon really

[10:20] Richardus Raymaker: is there a good howto about remote console on the wiki ?

[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not sure Richardus might be

[10:20] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha ha

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: good one, Richardus :D

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/RestConsole

[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: will study coyleds one at least

[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: but, remote admin works very good

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya i have never tried it

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: my worry about the remote stuff is its not very secure

[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: only ffault. it dont have own port. so you cannot firewall it

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: our use of rest console is all local

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: we do not connect from external servers with it

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: problem is there is no encryption

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: or any level of protection at all

[10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: holy unexpected documentation, batman

[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: rest console i need to use the same as remote admin

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: so if you use it

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: get familiar with firewalling ports

[10:23] Richardus Raymaker: same wite remote console. thats not encrypted to

[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: so only your IP can connect

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise your leaving yourself exposed in my opinion

[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: yes, but you cannot firewall Remote admin now. then you bnlock the whole sim

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you cant isolte the port right

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: remote console you can though

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: Remote Admin i think was one of the IBM things they did

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: which is not really being maintained anymore

[10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, IBM started that

[10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: still get regular patches for it, but there isn't really a maintainer...

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:25] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, bad job from IBM. you expect the know something about security :)

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: im sure an option for alternate port could be done though

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: you might send email to the opensim-dev group

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: requesting it

[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: one of the IBM guys might pick up on it still

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: or someone else with interest

[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: i cannot send any mail to the mailing list. it needs always admin inspection

[10:26] Richardus Raymaker: recieve works fine

[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: hmm it will get through

[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: i think btw to know the problem

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats just standard response

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: though i have not seen that response in a long time

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect thats been turnd off Rich

[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: we turn that on when dumbasses show up starting flame wars

[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: has anybody else tried migrating a large database to the most recent master code, btw?

[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: = always on ..

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: depends on your definition of large

[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: no, run 0.7 only as HG standalone

[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not large in your terms ;)

[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: large = >= 500MB

[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: seen one report of faiulre, which Diva thinks might be down to our Mysql.Data.dll

[10:29] Arielle Popstar: does upgrading a diva install count as a db migration?

[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't (yet)

[10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: if it's to the very latest, yes

[10:29] Arielle Popstar: ok, theni have

[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: justin

[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle

[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: what doyou consider large?

[10:30] Arielle Popstar: Hi Richardus

[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I'll go for 1000 rows at a pinch

[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: so 1000 prim region, which I suppose is not large. The bug report came in for a 100,000 prim table

[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: that you only find at more regions at1 instance

[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a region with over 16k prims

[10:31] Hiro Protagonist: I've basically sidestepped all migration issues by using oars and iars; but that is not an ideal solution for everyone

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: I have one with 22500 prims and 10500 scripts hehe

[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: tried migrating recently?

[10:31] Arielle Popstar: i have had problems with the latest diva upgrade

[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, no. Been waiting for 0.7 to stabilize first

[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, oars and iars are okay for small cases but not for big. And of course you lose avatar info and other stuff

[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: Andrew: wise man :)

[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)

[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: yes, that avatar info need te be fixt really fast. else we have 1 big CB.

[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a 50G opensim DB. Don't want to mess with it.

[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, I wonder if a command to dump all regions and inventories for an entire simulation would be good

[10:33] Hiro Protagonist: I do have reports from one of my users with some success with a similarly large migration, but I believe it's a bit old to be relevant

[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: er, entire opensim instance, I mean... wouldn't work for grid though....

[10:33] Hiro Protagonist: he migrated early in the 0.7 release cycle

[10:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a copy on an external hard drive. I could set up a MySQL instance that uses the external drive for its data files and do a migration with it.

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ah so you mean simulator migration Justin?

[10:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, a dump command could be useful. Why wouldn't it work for grid if its a form of db dump?

[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok i thought you meant a grid

[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: for a standalone you could pluck out all the inventories in principle. For a grid you'd have to that separately...

[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: 100,000 prims in 1 region?

[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: would also mean extending the OAR format to multi-region tbh

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is its the new MySQL connector

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: it sucks

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: most migrations will fail if your using it

[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: very disappointing, considering it's release code. However, somebody refuses to go back

[10:35] Hiro Protagonist: one thing I've seen, along the lines of extending oars

[10:35] Richardus Raymaker: does 0.7 still have the new mysql dll ?

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: actualyl the release 0.7

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: uses the old one

[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: i would hope the 0.7.0.1 release does also

[10:35] Hiro Protagonist: is the use of a console command script set that dumps all sims on a grid and an alternate that loads them

[10:35] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i know. ok

[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it will

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: all sims on a grid?

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: so worst case people use the relaease to run the migration

[10:36] Hiro Protagonist: errrr, regions, sorry

[10:36] Hiro Protagonist: yes

[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: then move up after the migration is done

[10:36] Hiro Protagonist: but the grid is a small prvate grid with just a dozen or so regions

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be very difficult to achieve because you'd need to communicate with all the distributed region servers

[10:36] Hiro Protagonist: yes, it would not work at all for a distributed grid

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: 0.7.0.1 doesn't contain any db migration

[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: so for a standalone....

[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I don't think Diva will let a 0.7.1 go out the door with that problem, and neither would I

[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya shes well aware of the problem

[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: we both ran into it while i was testing robust migrations

[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I see

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: one of the problems too with that connector

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if your mysql database is external to your sim server

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: it wants to do a reverse DNS lookup

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: for security reasons

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: which is probably good

[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: but for people who are not very savy with those kind of issues its kind of a pain

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly meaning if the server doesnt get the same address that was sent when it does its reverse lookup it will fail

[10:39] Hiro Protagonist: there's a point where you have to stop catering to simple configurations -- it comes along at about the point people are using external database servers ;3

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: that problem is an easy fix though

[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: just a matter of editing the host file on the server machine

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: and make sure the IP resolves the same name thats sent

[10:40] Hiro Protagonist: actually, that might be a good deal more secure than a reverse dns lookup

[10:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: Neb that is a good security feature, but it makes running it more difficult for ppl with less IT know how

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: right

[10:40] Hiro Protagonist: as dns is pretty easily spoofed

[10:40] Hiro Protagonist: and hosts, not so much

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: well you should also be relying on firewalls too

[10:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep Hiro

[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: you dont really want to expose your mysql server to the entire world anyway

[10:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: better not :)

[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: thats never a good idea

[10:41] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:41] Dave Coyle is Offline

[10:42] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: any more progress on the great eventual 0.7 migration? :)

[10:42] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: a bit, we ran into some issues with our proxy and HG

[10:42] Richardus Raymaker: how's the 0.7 website ?

[10:42] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: the new HG doesnt like running behind a reverse proxy

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: so we need to change how were going to approach it

[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: probably with DNS Round Robin instead

[10:43] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:43] UUID Speaker: doodles mcroy: 0ab1352f-e26f-c67d-2834-729aeed06cd8

[10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: but things are progressing, now always as smooth as we like

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: being no one is really running OpenSImulator like we are

[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: twas ever thus :)

[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, you guys are really beating it silly and showing the flaws

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think we should get past this issue pretty quickly

[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: we wasted a whole day yesterday though

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: trying to make it work with nginx

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: as soon as we enabled HG though it stops working

[10:45] Hiro Protagonist: wasnt an entire waste though, much was learned

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya mostly just alot of frustration

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: not knowing why it wasnt working

[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: glad I'm in another country ;)

[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: trying to fix a few basic-ish bugs today. I think I've discovered why shift-copy makes non- root -prims seem phantom

[10:47] Hiro Protagonist: oh nice

[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: aha nice, because thats the 99% way you copy prims

[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: and hopefully I've squahsed the bug where setting all the textures ona prim sometimes doesn't set all the faces

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: that bug sucks

[10:47] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) c313126: 2010-08-06 00:00:50 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: nice, that bug hits me the last time a bit more

[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's very annoying

[10:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I've seen that about the textures not going to all faces in 069PF. Thought that was an odd bug.

[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: It's basically because the client is sending 6 different texture entry updates (for a dube)(

[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: cube

[10:48] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: but we were handling every update on a seperate thread, which means occasionally the writing order was wrong

[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm making that stuff synchronous (which is a one liner) which I think should get rid of the problem

[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: cool.

[10:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Will that make it in to 069 if it works?

[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: nice, ya if you hollow and cut a cube its even more

[10:49] Hiro Protagonist: goes up to 7 faces ;)

[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: it would be trivial to port back, though I'd prefer someone to test it first on 0.6.9 - I don't have much time to do it myself

[10:49] Hiro Protagonist: the hollow being all one face