Chat log from the meeting on 2010-03-23

[08:58] Sarvana Cherry is Online [08:59] Tesira Luco is Online [09:00] Revolution Smythe is Online [09:01] Revolution Smythe: hey nebadon [09:13] Nebadon Izumi: yo [09:13]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry was afk [09:14] Alby Damden is Online [09:17] Tesira Luco is Offline [09:18] Tesira Luco is Online [09:18] Revolution Smythe: hey [09:19] Revolution Smythe: whens the meeting today? [09:19] Nebadon Izumi: heh not sure actually were still in the grey zone this week [09:19] Nebadon Izumi: thats why im here early [09:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [09:19] Revolution Smythe: hehe [09:19] Nebadon Izumi: i think next week we should be back to a normal [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: EU will be on summer time [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: or maybe it is now [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [09:20] Revolution Smythe: lol [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: i hate this stupid timzone stuff [09:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [09:20] Revolution Smythe: yep [09:21] Nebadon Izumi: we finally got a SSL cert last night for osgrid [09:21] Nebadon Izumi: were probably going to make the new Web interface all use SSL [09:21] Revolution Smythe: great [09:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya start tightening things up a bit [09:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [09:31] Nebadon Izumi: brb afk a few [09:34] Ella Trinie is Online [09:53] Ella Trinie is Offline [09:54] Adelle Fitzgerald is Online [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: im gonna head inside building and have a seat [10:03] Revolution Smythe: k [10:03]  Nebadon Izumi: adelle should be here in a minute [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi :) [10:05]  Revolution Smythe: hey Adelle [10:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hiya :) [10:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: do i ahve my top on this week? lol [10:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya [10:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: cool [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe this server got shut down last night [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i guess there might have been some kind of maintence going on at the data center [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: was scheduled i think [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up calling them cause 20 minutes later it still hadnt come back [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: but right as i am talking with the guy it came back [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: of course [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: guess it was doing a fsck or something [10:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe [10:07] oggie wingtips is Offline [10:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe im just glad it didnt die [10:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: this region is on Plaza02, right? [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:08]  Adelle Fitzgerald: oww that could have been nasty [10:08] Nebadon Izumi: did you get disconnected from the SSH ? [10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: i havent had SSH to either of the linux boxes running for the past could of days [10:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh [10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ah [10:08]  Adelle Fitzgerald: im connected to plaza04 [10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: just not 02 [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya that ones been running well [10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe i was [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: though i gotta look at sandbox plaza II soon [10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have that many windows open these days, my taskbar is a nightrame to navigate some times hehe [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i see 1000's of bullets on the console [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: looks like it might need some cleaning [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha [10:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, just load the oar over it [10:10]  Adelle Fitzgerald: that worked a treat last time i did them [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just worry im gonna screw up someones work [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i like to look 1st [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: before i just eradicate it [10:10]  Adelle Fitzgerald: oh yeah, i do that [10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: just go and return a load of stuff [10:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: and then load the oar [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling the most of the meeting people wont be here for another 50 minutes [10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: also, ive noticed the past coupld of days that Lbsa has stayed up for like 8 hours when i check it in the morning [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: its been running pretty good [10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: so, all this crashing thing with it, im wondering if it is a user there [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: 8 hours is good for lbsa [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: oh likely it is [10:11]  Adelle Fitzgerald: apparently it was crashing like every 20 mins or something [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: people start throwing inventory around too [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats when it starts getting bad [10:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: according to skelito [10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: right [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: if you and i just started throwing inventory to everyone it probably wouldnt last a whole 20 minutes even [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: but seems every time i check it, its been running for a good couple of hours [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:12]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe eyah [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i still blame inventory for most thread locks and region badness [10:12] Tesira Luco is Offline [10:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, if i even open my inventory sometimes the sim will start locking threads [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: if a few people do it it never recoverrs [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: why were seeing so many 0fps i think [10:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: right [10:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, makes sense [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: though things like physics are a factor too [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: needs lots of optimizing [10:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: usually, if i clear my cache and log into one of my regions, the incomming packets thread locks or dies, i think that is inventory related, as it never sems to do it once my inventory has loaded on that region [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its requesting your entire inventory to fast or something [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: needs throtteling [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: it overwhelms everything else [10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald nods [10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: im ove 9k now [10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: *over [10:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: so i think its starting to get even more wobbly hehe [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: 21323 here [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: i could prolly loose 2k though if i just cleaned the damn thing out lol [10:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha, thats loads [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [10:17]  Adelle Fitzgerald: oh i think i found a problem with sculptie meshing [10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i need to test on head really [10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: seems that if you mirror a sculptie, the mesh doesnt mirror with it [10:17]  Nebadon Izumi: interesting [10:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: it may do after a restart though, i havent tried that [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: how about if you phantom and unphantom it? [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: tried that, same thing [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: be interesting to know [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ah [10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: if that doesnt work [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect a restart wont either [10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia will want to know about that [10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: i still want to test all options though before submitting a mantis [10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes [10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: i only found out whilst getting stuck in tree roots lol [10:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive made a giant treehouse lol [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ah nice [10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: with big roots on the ground, and you can walk into them (the mirrored sculpties) and never get out [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ahaa [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: is this starting with my tree? [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: that makes total sense [10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: no, this is Franta's [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: why we cant walk down the paths in some of my sims [10:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: right [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its like you hit an invisible wall [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: i was testing with one of the tree stumps from the freebie garden [10:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt be bothered with trying to figure it out at the time [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: was doing so much other stuff [10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: if you get a stump, and mirror it, you can fly half into one side, but hit an invisible wall on the other, where the mesh used to be when not mirrored [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: nice find [10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: it shifts the sculpt over to one side, but not the mesh [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: im sure Dahlia can fix that up quick [10:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, its prolly a quick fix [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh id say at this point its confirmed though [10:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: i want to doubly check though, and also find something real obvious i can give Dahlia that she can test with [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: cool well the pink tree outside i know [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats the one giving me greif in all these spots [10:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: see [10:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: thats mirrored now [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [10:26]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [10:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: it needs to be about 3 times the size really to get the full effect [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its pretty obvious with this [10:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: infact i may be able to find a sculpt that is completely offset to one side that would make it even more obvious [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: dang did we freeze? [10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: dunno [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: oh no there goes [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe [10:27] UUID Speaker: john sutten: a4a1a782-d081-92c0-d4fd-0db9ca8f814f [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah someone logging in [10:27]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh [10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe at least we have good sculptie meshes though, not like the old cube in SL [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i need to pack up the beast bike prims one of these days [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: as prim kits [10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: buld your own? [10:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe [10:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think you may have given me a copy of the prims or maps [10:29] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: i could build a V-Twin supercharged uni-cycle with it lol [10:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: hmm no, amybe not [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya at one point i did post a link on IRC with a zip to the textures [10:31] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh taht might have been it [10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ive been sorting them out at my sandbox to put into kits [10:31] Revolution Smythe is Online [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hope at some point were able to assmeble it into some kind of bike [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: lots of cool shapes anyway [10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: hahaa [10:32] Nebadon Izumi: for all kinds of stuff [10:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [10:32] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hello... and excuse me for interrupting... :) [10:32] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hoping to speak with you Neb... [10:32]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hello lisa [10:32]  LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Adelle [10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: k [10:37]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [10:37]  UUID Speaker: john sutten: a4a1a782-d081-92c0-d4fd-0db9ca8f814f [10:50]  UUID Speaker: XO XAL: 9d86e8c2-1d43-80f8-1958-fa0f7fe250c0 [10:53]  Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:54]  Ruben Haan: hello everybody [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Ruben [10:54]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hello [10:54]  Ruben Haan: :) [10:54] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Ruben [10:54] LisaKathleen Kaligawa: hihi Rich... [10:54]  LisaKathleen Kaligawa: yay! [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya dunno if anyones showing up today or not [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: been kind of a dead week for patches too [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to try to setup a Simian backed grid later today [10:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: running from my godaddy.com shared website [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: for 15$ a month [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:59] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: you can run it from a webserver? [10:59] Juicy Babii: Greet'n's [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: its pure php [11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: nice [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya should be interesting [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: might be something we eventually move too here [11:00] Edie Stewart is Online [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: since simian stuff is starting to hit core now [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: it makes it more feasible [11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: so it simply uses apache for serving assets? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: for everything [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: not just assets [11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: the whole grid? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: awesome [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justinc [11:00] Richardus Raymaker: Things seems to get a bit unstable the last time. and newer viewers are not ok. [11:00] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Justin [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hey nebadon, adelle, folks [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: with Simian Richardus? [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: talking about siminagrid? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: simiangrid [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to setup a simian grid maybe today [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i started last night [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: cool [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: got all the files in place [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: now just gotta figure out how to configure it [11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i bought a new godaddy website for onikenkon [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: No. here. but its also my memory on server. but with viewers. imprudence 1.3b2 not ok to. only 1.2.0 seems ok [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: www.onikenkon.com [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: figure i'll setup a small simian test grid there [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: someone told me more viewers have problems [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: website coming soon? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: if it works you will be able to run a grid from a 15$ a month shared web account [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya theres not much there [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: i just signed up about 2-3 nights ago [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey grins [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: whats siminian grid ? [11:02] Juicy Babii re-greets [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: its the Intel/Libomv PHP grid services [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: replaces the URM [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: or Robust [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: pure PHP running in Apahce2 [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: nothing like a bit of competition [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: its probably about 10-20 times more efficient than even the best C# http server is [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: not sure why imprudence seems only to crash at WP [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: aah [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it probablyi is going to be considerably better [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: be very interesting to see the results [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its got a long way to go though before its useable in this scale too [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: you've been talking with jhurliman? [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: but it might be a good way for OSgrid to go in the future [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya a bit [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: and Mic too [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: though ive been neck deep in OSgrid stuff lately [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: few weeks late on the testing [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: cool. How is the 0.7pre test stuff going? It seems the Intel folks have a test grid which isn't suffering too many problems [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ive not gotten into the Intel simian grid yet [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: the emails im getting though make it sound like its working mostly [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: the Web Interface is very basic though [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: its like create account and login [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: but its a start [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: curious how it wil go work with apache. because i run virtual servers on it to [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounds like everybody has to reconstruct their web interfaces with the database changes [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: /need to make maby some [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm thinking of starting to push properly on 0.6.9 though - which would be pre-ROBUST [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: er, pre presence0-refactor, that is [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya pretty much its the Web Interface holocaust [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: they all either need to be refactored or rebuilt from scratch [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: were getting there [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it needed doing though [11:08] Edie Stewart is Online [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: this is one of the reasons i tried stressing to everyone not to devote to much resources to the older stuff [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: like Redux [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i did about all I could do to warn people [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but no one listened [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. But is there any doc on the new db structures? Hard for people to adapt if there isn't [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: not yet, diva and mel are actually still working out the migration routines [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then documentation comes [11:09] Juicy Babii cringes at the question about doc [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: things "may" change [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. I'm seriously starting to think about proposing some kind of big warning in trunk by default [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: though it would easily be turned off by changing an ini setting [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to think people would listen to us [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: but the fact is they wont [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe even something on the 'default' island - like a big red sign saying "DON@T USE THIS!" [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: they wont have concern until after its too late [11:10] Revolution Smythe: they should have finished migration before they pushed presence refactor into core [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: well it requires testing [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, master isn't meant to be working all the time - it's very hard to do a big change like that outside [11:11] Revolution Smythe: yes, but not as its being put together [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: a refactor of this magniture [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its just not something thats going to be easy [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we need to move away from a culture of people updaing directly from Master unless they are testers or developers [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i think after this refactor though [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely to happen on this scale again [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I bloody hope not :) [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: to me though things are going well [11:12]  Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [11:12]  Edie Stewart is Offline [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: were not ready to migrate anyway [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: even if the migration routines were ready today [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be weeks/months before OSgrid could migrate [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: because of the web interfae [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: uh huh [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: interface* [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [11:12]  Adelle Fitzgerald: we need to test migration, over and over until we get it 100% first time [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: thats the real deal killer right now [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: not the migration [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's real tricky for you folks [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: the reason they are dragging their feet on the migration routines [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: because not one single person has started a new web interface yet [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so even if it was all ready by mel and diva [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: no one could migrate [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so its good we have time to do it right [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: i think you can get 99.5 100% thats really good if you get that [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: better to take the time and do it right [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, too many people update from Master [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: than rush it out because people are impatient [11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: Richardus, if that 0.5% is the user database or something, it will destroy the whole grid, we need to get ti 100%, imho [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: 101% [11:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe ya [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: needs testing before we pull the trigger for live use [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: ok. sorry missed the line. you talk about 100% ugaim.. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: and were there [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: testing is going well [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but it will never be fast enough [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as it's in process I think that's okay. Better to be patient and get it right than rush it and have a grid meltdown [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: otherwise we will be doing big refactors again [11:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol 3000 screaming users, nope thanks lol [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, and they're not even paying ;) [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya but people are paying with their time [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: and we do have a lot of people donating [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess so [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: donations are doing quite well [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: plus we have alot of stuff going on behind the scenes too right now [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: like developing our TOS [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: lots of the typical corporate nonsense stuff [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah yes - people on the linden open source list seem to be quite unhappy about the third party viewer policy [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: considering our lack of resources and staff, were still moving pretty good [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: the bane of any charity perhaps :) [11:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: probably so [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya has their 3rd party policy changed recently? [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: there have been revisions, but the legalese is difficult to reconcile with the gpl [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: most of the current viewers probably dont have much life left on SL anyway [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: some people think it effectively prevents them from doing any third party development [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: once 2.0 gets forced [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: no? [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know - I feel that the development side of Linden do want to improve their open-source engagement [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: well its likely sometime in the next year they will cut off 1.23 viewers [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: and probably most of the mgmt too [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but 2.0 code will be open-sourced, at least the core parts [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: but its starting over for all these projjects [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: im back to emerald, because sl1 is bad and missing options. (about 2 i dont talk) [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are porting much old code over [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: all those viewer projects are fragmented anyway because linden don't really do public development [11:20] Juicy Babii: They might be porting over the memory leaks [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: they just push code drops out from their behind-the-firewall source repository [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya well SL needs to do something [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: theft and abuse is so rampant there [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: their viewer policy has not benefited SL [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: its benefited the users [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but not the core system [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the core system gets soo abused over there [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: but isn't benefitting the users benefitting sl? [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean? [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not suprising tehy are removing liberties [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: well all these hack viewers [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that let people steal [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: and abuse regions [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: im sure thats not the picture LL was trying to paint [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: when they did open source viewer [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with the LL method of OpenSource [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I think Linden always wanted to be more like the web than like a traditional MMORPG [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: is the back end is closed [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: were back at the microsoft way of things [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: a small group of people fixes a large pool of problems [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and meanwhile its hackers delight [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: where as with say linux its totally open, and the hackers get the shaft [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: hehe [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: JCC, i think opensim wil win that [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: well, some of that stuff would be very difficult to prevent, such as content stealing [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya true [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: they get the shaft? [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly not the same issue [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: well Linux ends up being the most secure platform [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: I think it's in the balance - I don't think we have enough comitters, to be honest [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: because everyone knows where the bugs are [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and everyone can fix them [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unlike microsoft [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: where hackers know about bugs months before microsoft does [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: true. But content stealing is almost unfixable [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: theres no real easy fix [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but its not suprising to me to see LL pulling liberties away [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: that was my point i guess [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno though i guess im just getting tired of hearing about the SL problems [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: JCC. its neve rfixable. with nothing [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i know alot of top builders there [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and i seriously dont know any that are happy [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: most are contemplating leaving SL [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: but have no where to go [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: so tehy linger [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we can stop talking about it :) But SL problems will have a big impact on us for quite a while [11:25]  Juicy Babii: or are downsizing [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: they still see osgrid/opensim as too immature? [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya i dont mind talking about it [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: but what im getting tired of is hearing from the user base there and LL not responding it seems [11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: the call it wild west here [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: well most want more protections [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: not less [11:26]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: most are talking of moving to bluemars [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: because its more restrictive / harder to steal [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: but bluemars is blowing that opportunity [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: with their feet dragging [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I need to go back and try bluemars. Seemed very clunkly last time i tried [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: oh its unchanged [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: dont even bother [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I did go on Sony Home recently though and it was pretty good! Lots of new content [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its not changed 1 bit in 12 months [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: bluemars, where you cannot build inworld. still sounds a useless grid [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i was there about 3 weeks ago [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: really? That's poor [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: and absolutly nothing has changed that i could tell [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not a fun experience [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its a confusing/ disappointing experience at best [11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: i can still not get it to even run :-/ [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: theres absolutly nothing there you can do as a user [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: except walk around and go [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ooh pretty [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey laughs [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: my hair is bouncy [11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: i wanna see this floaty wavey hair Diva went crazy about lol [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, sound like sl. cannot do much tehre to if you dont have land. :O [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well in SL there is 1000s of interactive sims [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: agree [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: go find something you can do interactviely in bluemars [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dare you [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i have no problem promoting bluemars [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: i deleted me beta account.. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: cause its so bad [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: never been there when others sayed its bad [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: people will run back here begging for lessons [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey grins [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmmm, we have our own issues ;) [11:29]  Revolution Smythe: lol [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: we do, but from the user end [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: most "users" have fun here [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: server admins might not have the funnest of times [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: but i think the users to enjoy being here [11:29]  Revolution Smythe: except when things go wrong [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ive yet to have even 1 second of fun in bluemars [11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's still extremely early days [11:30]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think on the whole the attitude here is pretty positive [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ive scratched my chin raw trying to figure out what the heck their plan is [11:30]  Revolution Smythe: Adelle: yes [11:30]  Adelle Fitzgerald: once people accept the limitations of opensim [11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: some people worry that opensim isn't improving fast enough [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya but whats fast enough too [11:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: once they get over the 'zomg there is no monies??' then they are pretty much 'oh, ok, lets go party' lol [11:30] Revolution Smythe: lol [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i think the people who say its not happening fast enough, have financial stake in it [11:31]  Juicy Babii: :) @ Adele [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: i dont know how sl where in the begin. but it cant be much better the OSGRID now [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, and don't seem to contribute much... [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: personally i think anyone who is truly contributing to opensimulator could not possibly think that [11:31]  Revolution Smythe: heh [11:32]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Richardus, 5 years ago in SL was very much less than what opensim is now [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: they do promote it in other ways though, and try to use it... I'm not sure - I'm just worried that we haven't had a new comitter for quite a long while now [11:32]  Adelle Fitzgerald: except it had economy [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it is suprising we dont have more people contributing patches [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I think economy ultimately does have to happen via the web and out-of-world [11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think it is the economy there that drove it to what it is now [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but this codebase is so huge too [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes - it's my chief worry. [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its also not that suprising people are indimidated [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: intimidated* [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah that's one of my theories - the codebase is so big and complicated that people have a hard time getting their head around it [11:33]  Richardus Raymaker: yes adella, but it seems many people dont think sofar back [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder if anything can be done about that [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya its like jumping into MySQL year 3 [11:33] Revolution Smythe: maybe its not just the code as well [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: teach me C# and i will patch stuff hehe [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: didn't you do a few patches? I seem to remember a few [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe im still working on the time travel phase of the learn C# in 21 days [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: nope, never submitted any [11:34] Revolution Smythe: lol [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol neb [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have submitted a few mantis' though [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: but never any patches [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's really people who would be fanatical about OpenSim working properly [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: and are l33t coders.... :) [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: i think too after this refactor is done [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: people may be more inclined to get involved [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: right now its so foncusing [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: confusing* [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I hope you're right :) [11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think that too [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right now OSgrid isnt running core [11:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: people are just waiting for it to all start up again [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: thats a big reason too that patches have stalled a bit i think [11:36] Adelle Fitzgerald: and its not going to start without some form of WI [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the real kicker, the web interface that no one wants to work on [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: this is one counter-argument to core being too broken. If it's too broken then people don't run it and we get a drop off in patches [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: oh i agree [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: alot of testers/devs live on osgrid too [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: like dahlia [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and have stated their work is on hold [11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: people do run the simulator from core though [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: until the refactor is more complete [11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: that has never changed [11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: only the grid services [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, didn't know that [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but we got dahlia on danger grid [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so she was able to resume her dev work [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but thats just 1 person [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt others feel the same [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: Revolution probably has similar feelings [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but i wont speak for him [11:38] Revolution Smythe: yep [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it has been a pretty confusing last 9 months and I'll be glad to see the back of the ROBUST changes [11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: the main problem is that devs dont have an environment where they can test patches properly [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: btw revolution [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: what do you mean? [11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: its one thing testing in standalone, but different in a grid environment [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: if it in anyway could help you for patches we could put you onto the danger grid also [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: same for you justin [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: just say the word [11:38] Revolution Smythe: i wont be submitting any more patches to opensim core [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: true - I never look forward to testing in grid since it's a pain to set up [11:39]  Adelle Fitzgerald: there are some thing that can be done in standalone, but others that require a grid backend [11:39] Lee Oldrich: Do we have a changeover date for the refactored codebase to go live in OSG yet? [11:39] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh you will love the post p-r then Justin [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: no Lee [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: maybe one day :) [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: not right now [11:39]  Adelle Fitzgerald: it took me about 10 minutes to set up a grid at home [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if theres anything we can do to accomidate your testing needs [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: just let us know [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, just starting one robust executable should be easier in the future [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: after going through the new robust [11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: assuming that the bugs properly show up if everything is in one place :) [11:40] Adelle Fitzgerald: one DB, one exe, and very little config [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: once its fully documented and were past the migration / web interface [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be monumentally easier to get opensim grid running [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it will be the same to get a grid running as it is to get a standalone [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: there will not be much difference [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it will have been worth it [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, it will involve starting two executables rather than one and setting up OpenSim.Server.ini [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i can state that without hesitation [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but it makes so much more sense in the end [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: a year ago it took 5 services [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: to get a grid [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: so to get it down to 2 services is awesome [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: overall its alot easier i would have to say [11:42] Revolution Smythe: it took 6 last year [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but the lack of documentation right now makes it very confussing [11:42] Revolution Smythe: UGAIM + R [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: ya hehe [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i meant for the back end [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - and it's difficult to write ti unless you wrote the code [11:42] Revolution Smythe: then its one this year [11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: the first test grid i set up took me best part of 4 hours (agreed i didnt knwo what i do now), but I didnt setup a grid until a couple of weeks ago, post p-r, and it literally took 10 minutes [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: otherwise you have to spend ages working out what the hell [people have done and testing stuff - very discouraging [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: cool [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i think Divas biggest problem is shes also a full time college professor also [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: if she was full time opensim this would haev probably been done already [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: well, pretty much all of us have full time jobs [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya Melanie aside who has made opensim dev her full time job [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and also Adam [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: but they have such a high work load with opensim its not much differnt [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: are you still doing OS stuff primarily justin? [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I'm working for Intel atm [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: application stuff though - not so much that requires OpenSim core changes [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: doing some interesting boundary pushing stuff - hopefully the generic parts can become public at some point [11:46] Lee Oldrich: Sounds to the untrained ear like things are stalling? [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: probably not - I just like to focus on the negative to see where we can improve :) [11:47]  Lee Oldrich: I like that [11:47]  Lee Oldrich: So we don't have any date for the switchover Neb? I thought I heard you say that a while back.... [11:47]  Adelle Fitzgerald: no date yet [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: as it stands we dont even have an idea of a date [11:48]  Lee Oldrich: ok [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: there is a lot of work to be done still [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: mainly getting an new web interface written [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: once we have some form of usuable WI, then we can start testing further [11:49]  Lee Oldrich: Well - again from the untrained ear - I can tell you that the uncertainty of that switchover is what's causing a lot of the general unease about OSG right now among the user base [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: heh sorry back, had rice on stove almost burned it [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: nice though [11:49] Lee Oldrich: Burnt rice = hammer and chisel time [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: well, this is not historically unusally - traditionally open-source project stuff happens when things are ready [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: give nebadon webcam with videoprim [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: very difficult to timetable volunteer-led projects [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya things can change drasticly over night [11:50] Lee Oldrich: nods [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or not happen for months [11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: the switch over wont affect users at all, and all that will be required of region ops is that they update [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: one of the pitfalls of such an open project [11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: it really will be as simple as that [11:50] Adelle Fitzgerald: so there is no need for unease at all [11:50] Lee Oldrich: Completely understand that - I'm just trying to fairly convey emotions and sentiments I've been hearing is all - it's just another data point. [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya once things are perfected it will be pretty much download the new simulator/configs from website [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: :) fair enough [11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: and restart [11:50]  Adelle Fitzgerald: at least that is the way we are planning it, so its not something we are going to rush into in the slightest [11:51]  Lee Oldrich: How certain are we that the changeover will in fact be that painless? [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: well right now its pure pain [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why we have not started the process yet [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:51]  Lee Oldrich: I ask because I know of more than a few people who are so scared they're preparing for a post OSG world if they can't transfer their regions over easily [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect when we are ready [11:51]  Adelle Fitzgerald: it will be no different than a regular region bump, and a reconfig of the config files [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: it will be no differnt than any other update people will do [11:52]  Adelle Fitzgerald: its been done before, on a few occasions [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: remember we have backup servers too [11:52] Lee Oldrich: nods [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if things go horribly wrongt [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we will simply just fall back to the old methods [11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: sure people ahve hiccups and stuff, but that will always happen [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: and regroup and figure out what it takes to move forward [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: as long the regions have backups to [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: well thats standard operating procedure [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have backup methods right now [11:52] Lee Oldrich: So - let me throw a thought out there - could we put something out that will asuage these fears? Maybe something that is more PR than tech. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: your already screwing up [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: perhaps but right now its just hang tight [11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: we have already been saying this over and over Lee [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you look at the login screen it should talk about some of this [11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: i suspect something of chinese whispers are happening [11:53] Lee Oldrich: Well - not exactly - atleast that's not what I've been hearing the interpretations to be [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: right now we cant say much of anything but sit tight and hang in there [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: well the best thing to do is direct those people to post on the forums [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: with their specific concerns [11:54] Lee Oldrich: The statements on the front page of teh OSG splash screen when you log in can be taken badly if read the wrong way with little knowledge of the process [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: from a user perspective though [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: nothing will change [11:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: if people dont understand that notice, they shouldnt be running opensim, imho [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i agree [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: if its just users were talking about and not grid ops [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: then there wont be any noticable change in the end [11:55] Lee Oldrich: Adelle: Maybe - but unfortunately it's the cultural norm for people to passively react and collectvely cause a general dissatisfaction "Chinese Whispers" if you will. [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the process will likely be almost the same it is now, the website will change [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: posibly drasticly but not so much you wouldnt be able to understand those changes [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: im just used to this one. lol [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: our goal is to recreate it like it is now, atleast functionality wise [11:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: Lee, there is little we can do about that in all fairness, how people interpret stuff is upto them really [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Lee no matter what we do [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: people are going to be that way [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: we could post a new warning everyday [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and then when the time comes [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: a few 100 people will act like we didnt warn them [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty typical, and probably not something we should spend all our time on either [11:57] WhiteStar Magic is Online [11:57] Lee Oldrich: I thin maybethinking a little less about warnings and maybe more about positive messages conveyed in multiple channels could yield some better feelings among the users is all [11:57] Revolution Smythe: hey Whitestar [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: well right now i just cant really do that honestly [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not without lieing [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: must see, i always only look for the image and the login button [11:57] WhiteStar Magic: hey folks [11:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: as with any major bump, we will perform it at the grid, we will supply a rev of opensim that people can download, already pretty much configured, and those that want to compile their own, they ahve IRC for help [11:57] Lee Oldrich: Hi Whitestar [11:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi WS [11:57]  WhiteStar Magic: I guess I'm kinda late for teh meetin eh [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: people are just going to have to be patient [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if they arent nothing i will say is going to change that really [11:58] Juicy Babii: This is the fun part of the meeting: the after-meeting free-for-all [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we do have to bea rin mind that openSim is very primtiive. If anything, it's better to actively discourage people who don't know what they're letting themselves in for [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hey whitestar [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: your more likely to find me chasing people away from this grid still [11:58] Juicy Babii: for which I've been patiently waiting to ask a question about Voice. But I can wait. [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: than trying to make people who dont belong here feel good [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: juicy: hey, you can ask any time - don't think it will be positive though :) [11:59]  Juicy Babii: lols [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: what i dont want to do is sugar coat things [11:59]  Juicy Babii: just wishing to get Voice active for more than 1 Region [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: just to make people feel better [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: voice is languishing a bit [11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: hi whitestar [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: id rather people be uncomfortable a bit and then get directly involved in making it better [11:59]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i really really hope there is some juicy april fools joke goes on this year, to remind people of what opensim exactly is hehe [12:00]  Revolution Smythe: lol [12:00]  Juicy Babii: we have people here trying to plug in speech recognition and machine translation of Voice [12:00]  Lee Oldrich: Justin: I agree that pepole coming into this should have a certain understanding of the technicalities. Unfortunately you don't have that controlled influx now. What you have is a mass influx from SL of people with expectations that are being reshaped very quickly. This is a social problem - not a technical one. [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: Do you think there are any solutions to that? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortuantly OSgrid should not be considered a social platform [12:00] WhiteStar Magic: it's a mix of social & technical [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: while yes it can be used for social interactivity [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its not a social platform [12:00] Lee Oldrich: As I said - I think a more well crafted communications strategy could help [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya perhaps [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: are you volunteering? ;) [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: the way i see it though [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: is i see LL making alot of claims about stability [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: and things to come [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: and none of it being true [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: im not going to do that [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: id rather see people leave [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: than us getting into pandering and making excuses [12:01]  Lee Oldrich: Justin: I would but I'd be hopeless as I don't know enough about the technicallities to be effective. I'd be chasing you guys down constantly. [12:02]  WhiteStar Magic: is tehre something I could prepare ? [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: Lee: Well you know, that's where everybody starts. However, I don't speak for OSGrid - I'm just an opensim developer [12:02]  WhiteStar Magic: of course with a Spell Checker used [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe whitestar if you want to make some statements about stuff [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont think we could be any more clear about it [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i personally think people just dont read what we say [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we all do it even i dont read everything all the time [12:03] Lee Oldrich: I understand that Neb - but I think you maybe have to take some of those other opinions into account. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: theres just to much to read and take in [12:03]  WhiteStar Magic: I think it also needs to be bouiled down to teh simplest of language, because I see many folks with another primary klanguage having the worst of it. [12:03] Lee Oldrich: nods [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya that makes sense [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but according to our stats too [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, interesting conversatio nbut unfortunately I have to go - duty calls [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: like 90% of our users are english speakers [12:03] Lee Oldrich: We get a LOT of germa / Dutch / UK people [12:03] WhiteStar Magic: people are tripping over teh long dialogues and material. [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks [12:04] Revolution Smythe: cya Justin [12:04] WhiteStar Magic: TTYL JCC [12:04] Lee Oldrich: (Although UK should be capable of understanding yanks I guess :-)) [12:04]  Adelle Fitzgerald: cya Justin, tc [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: but ya i agree [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: infact [12:04]  Lee Oldrich: Bye Justin [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: has anyone seen the wiki page that dave posted long ago [12:04]  WhiteStar Magic: I am seeing a lot of South American's and Spanish folks [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: for people who speak languages natively to translate certain things for us [12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: by justin [12:04]  Lee Oldrich: That would be a cool move [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: http://osgrid.org/wiki/Translations [12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: Lee germand, dutch/uk not the problem. brazil, portugal seems more language problem [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: if anyone is a native speaker of anything other than english [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: if your interested take a stab at translating these terms for us [12:05]  WhiteStar Magic: yes and it has to be simple and easily translated by whatever translation SW is being used [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: then we can start to expand some of this stuff [12:05] Lee Oldrich: Richardus: Agreed - they do seem to have the most difficulties [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Whitestar id rather not use translation services [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: if your not a native speaker [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: please do not edit this page [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: do not use software [12:06] WhiteStar Magic: I agree, but people are using them [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: software is always wrong [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: and sometimes offensive [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:06]  WhiteStar Magic: LOL... I Know that all too well [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: blame the softawre. but finaly its always the user [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:07] WhiteStar Magic: I speak, engklish, French, Hungarion, some German & Russian... Translation Softwware assumes very basic language and no idioms [12:07] WhiteStar Magic: OK... and TYPONESE is my Best Language [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: mine too! [12:08] WhiteStar Magic: I have a good excuse though, so I'm good with it [12:09]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i actually like Justin's idea of having some big fat warning when you first fire up opensim [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: it seems im good in mistyponees [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not a bad idea [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: yes adelle. font size 70. [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:09] WhiteStar Magic: something that appears on teh Console of teh Server ? [12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: if something like were done, it would be nice to have it customised for OSgrid [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually thats not hard to do at all really [12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: DO backups, DONT forget [12:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe [12:10] Revolution Smythe: MessageBox.Show(MESSAGE HERE); [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but really [12:10] WhiteStar Magic: maybe a simple file that any operator could mod [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: if you as me [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ask me [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: you should know this before you download it [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: if you downloaded it then find this out after you spend time setting it up [12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its too late [12:10] Lee Oldrich: I don't think it's the server end where the general issue lies though - won't most have their only interaction be the viewer itself? [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: the warning needs to be at the download points [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: IMHO [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: not after you have configured and started the software [12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: people dont read them, you said it yourself! [12:11] WhiteStar Magic: +1 Neb [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: if anything thats just a reminder, not really a warning [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: agree. and easy to [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: you cant warn people after the fact [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats a fail [12:11] Lee Oldrich: Well - yes - but I'm talking about peple who have just joined OSG and not had anything to do with the server software [12:11] Richardus Raymaker: some pop-up screen before you download ? [12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: what the need is a big, massive even sign on their brand new shineh pimple [12:11] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Adelle [12:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: when they see that they will read it [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we can probably do more at Lbsa Plaza then [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: if your talking about users [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: or even at the sign up page [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: on the website [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we can be more explicit about eh alpha nature of this grid [12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: people wont read it [12:12]  Lee Oldrich: Well - I was going to suggest that something very large and flashy at LBSA could help [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: remember too [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: a TOS is coming [12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: they wont, wont wont wont.... [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: 1st the User TOS [12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: its on the way [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: then a grid op TOS [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: will come shortly after that [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: as well as privacy statements etc. [12:12]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i bet half of people wont read the ToS [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: the TOS will clearly spell out the alpha nature of things [12:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: they will click 'i accept' without knowing the full details [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: i bet 99% of people dont [12:13] WhiteStar Magic: Half is being Generous [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: honestly [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what we write most people wont read it [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: or retain it [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: even if they do it read it [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: most will forget within hours [12:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: so, a big sign on their new shiney pimple will catch their attention, and especially if they ahve to go edit the bit in opensim.ini to remove the sign [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: actually [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: there is a .txt file [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: that you can inject your logo on sim startup [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: any kind of startup message actually [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: we could easily do that for osgrid relasases [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: inject it where? [12:14] WhiteStar Magic: Good Idea there [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: if you guys think that would make a difference [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: how is it displayed? [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the console [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its ascii [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: nah [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the sim console [12:14] Lee Oldrich: I don't read the notices for software agreements I know that. It could say "You agree to have your nuts stapled to a passing bus three times a year" and I would n't even know [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: people dont understand the console when they first run it [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:14]  WhiteStar Magic: LOL Lee [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but we could pop up a Wearning [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: its just a load of whizzing characters [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: in big ascii letters [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ALPHA!! [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:14] Revolution Smythe: i like my console lol [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha [12:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: i like my console too [12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: but when i first ran opensim, i didnt even know whether it har started up properly or not [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [12:15]  Revolution Smythe: if it doesn't explode, it started up properly [12:15] Revolution Smythe: hehe [12:15] Lee Oldrich: I like my console -even if it does make me feel like one of those Matrix people - just watching the data..... [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya if you dont see a million errors [12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: i expected a big sign saying 'your sim is ready for use!!' [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: your good [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: but no... all i got was Root > [12:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [12:16]  Revolution Smythe: and Startup Complete [12:16] Revolution Smythe: [!]:STARTUP COMPLETE [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh thats probably fairly new [12:16] Nebadon Izumi: it didnt always do that [12:16] Revolution Smythe: its been around for awhile [12:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: Startup complete didnt come in until about 12 months ago, i think [12:16] Revolution Smythe: yep [12:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, how about hijacking the startup.txt, Neb [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: there is another file i thought [12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: to load an oar of a big sign [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: though it may have been eliminated [12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: merge oar [12:17] Nebadon Izumi: let me look [12:17] Revolution Smythe: theres timer.txt [12:17] Revolution Smythe: and shutdown.txt [12:17] Revolution Smythe: err [12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: merging a 1 prim 1 texture oar should be fairly quick [12:17] Revolution Smythe: shutdown_commands.txt [12:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: and would require intervention to stop it too [12:18] WhiteStar Magic: Timer is off by default [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: hmm damn [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember the name of the file [12:18] WhiteStar Magic: Startup_Commands is set to run in Default [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: you used to be able to create a txt file [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: that would display on startup complete [12:18] Revolution Smythe: spyware for opensim, loads up a new oar every time you start it [12:18]  WhiteStar Magic: and that is what actually makes teh pimple island [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: it would print whatever was in the txt file on the console [12:18] Nebadon Izumi: at [startup complete] [12:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol Rev [12:19] Nebadon Izumi: it was undocumented i think [12:19] Lee Oldrich: Well folks, I gotta get back to work. Thanks for listening. Looking forward to what happens next as always :-) [12:19] Revolution Smythe: cya Lee [12:19]  Adelle Fitzgerald: okies, Lee, catch uya later [12:19]  WhiteStar Magic: Take Care Lee [12:19]  Lee Oldrich: ttfn [12:19]  Richardus Raymaker: bye lee [12:19]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe i love it when people walk round the big couch, so human like [12:20]  Lee Oldrich: IT'S CALLED IMMERSION DAMMIT! [12:20]  Adelle Fitzgerald laughs [12:20]  WhiteStar Magic: HAHAHHAHA [12:20]  Lee Oldrich: :-) [12:20] Revolution Smythe: lol [12:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:21] WhiteStar Magic: Things with startupCommands is that it excutes when teh regions are loading so things may not appear and remain long enough for people to see it [12:22]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hmm, but how quickly does a pimple load? [12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: im talking about a one time, first startup thing [12:22] WhiteStar Magic: but if there is another mechanism that can be used to put a "NOTICE - WARNING" Banner, it should appear @ end of all loading [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with doing the oar at startup [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: is how do we prevent the oar from running a 2nd time? [12:22] WhiteStar Magic: That's easy enough [12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: we dont [12:22] Nebadon Izumi: on the 2nd restart? [12:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: they do [12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya directions would have to be uber clear [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: we put on the notice removal instructions [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its not a bad idea though [12:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: goto startup_commands.txt and delete the text contained [12:23] Nebadon Izumi: i sorta like it [12:23]  Adelle Fitzgerald: if they dont understand those simple words they they definatly SHOULD NOT be running opensim [12:24] WhiteStar Magic: AHA [12:24] WhiteStar Magic: Use teh Startuplogo.txt [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: awesome [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive been searchign for that [12:24] Richardus Raymaker: 2e start ? with firts installs i start. if it runs i shutdown and start it with screen [12:24] WhiteStar Magic: then no messing with the startup commands [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: man thats not documented [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:24] Richardus Raymaker: so i never see the oar [12:24] WhiteStar Magic: hehehhee [12:24] Nebadon Izumi: someone needs to document that [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats how you can have your company logo print [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: when the simulator starts [12:25] WhiteStar Magic: I still can't see Wonder Womans Airplane [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: i could have it show a ASCII osgrid logo [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: with links to docus [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: wiki's forums [12:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: nonononono [12:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: have it print 'this is alpha, use at your own risk, abckup backup backup' then a load of links [12:25] Richardus Raymaker: dont spam my console [12:25] Nebadon Izumi: well in addition to the oar loading [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: sure [12:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: we could do all of that [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: warnings, links to documentation [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yanno [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: in Lbsa, we could ahve a noob detector [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: that hands them a notecard [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: check their age? [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: a lot of that could be explained on that [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya but that could get old [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: if you keep revisiting [12:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: Warin and I talked about it once [12:26] Nebadon Izumi: but ya have to make it like 24-48 hours [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: then never again [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: check fo one day old, and keep a list of people [12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: then reset the list every 2 days [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya or that too i guess [12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: or when the sim restarts heh [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [12:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya sounds good, id like to see that for sure [12:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: it could basically say where to get help, grab a fee avatar [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: stuff like that [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: just simple [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:28]  Adelle Fitzgerald: then they can click the new users sign for more info [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: so they arent bombarded with too much too quick [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya theres no reason we couldnt give them a starter kit too [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: not just a noteard [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: could be a box of stuff [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: both mala and female avies [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: no, a folder [12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya true [12:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: they wont be able to rez it [12:29]  Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, or, we could have every newbie land on noob island, and leave them there [12:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: like a bunch of binars all bumping into each other confused [12:29] Richardus Raymaker: thats why we have it, right [12:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: umm, sorry [12:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: justthe thought of that makes me giggle though [12:30] Richardus Raymaker: and in the notecard the find the key to other places. like lbsa [12:30] WhiteStar Magic: how do you want teh txt Logo, generating it now [12:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: THIS IS ALPHA SOFTWARE, IT IS NOT FIT FOR PRODUCTION USE! [12:30] WhiteStar Magic: I have a Graphic to TXT generator [12:31] Richardus Raymaker: ALWAYS WEAR YOUR HELMET [12:33] WhiteStar Magic: Dang, Notecards mulch it [12:33]  WhiteStar Magic: proportional fonts [12:33] WhiteStar Magic: Grrr [12:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: can you take a screen shot? [12:33] WhiteStar Magic: no good if you want ASCII [12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont understand [12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: did you want to show us something? [12:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: or are you copy/pasting into the converter [12:35] WhiteStar Magic: I pulled teh OSG Logo into the generator and generated a TXT Logo [12:35] WhiteStar Magic: but mulches in a Notecard because of teh font [12:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha [12:36] WhiteStar Magic: I can transfer it via IRC File Transfer [12:37] WhiteStar Magic: http://ascgendotnet.jmsoftware.co.uk/ [12:37] WhiteStar Magic: Windows Applet [12:37] WhiteStar Magic: easy to use and works like a charm" [12:38]  WhiteStar Magic: you can select whatever gfont you want, likely best to use std Courier [12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: nice, back again [12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: had to eat my rice this time [12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:39]  WhiteStar Magic: LOL... [12:39]  WhiteStar Magic: <--- Likes Rice [12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: was starving [12:39]  WhiteStar Magic: That link above Neb will let you make any Graphic into a TXT Art file [12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: awesome [12:40]  WhiteStar Magic: very simple and easy to use [12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: it will probably be a while before another release [12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: but maybe i can make a test release [12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: same version as current release but with these new features [12:40]  WhiteStar Magic: I am using r12400 from 0.6.9-post-fixes and it is quite well mannered [12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: we can get some people to give it a test run in prep for the next big release [12:41] Nebadon Izumi: cool [12:41] Nebadon Izumi: i guess i could do the post-fixes release too [12:41] WhiteStar Magic: I dunno if you guys have noticed, but a lot of folks are trying now to use teh Binary Packages from OpenSim.org to connect to OSG [12:42] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thats not suprising [12:42] WhiteStar Magic: Maybe a small notice on OpenSim.org to say NOT for use with OSG [12:42] Nebadon Izumi: i certainly dont use our releases [12:42] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:42] Richardus Raymaker: there binary's on opensim.org ? [12:43] WhiteStar Magic: yep [12:43] Richardus Raymaker: i only use the osgrid page for the git code. and then build it self [12:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: how do you get post fixes? [12:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: is it a different branch? [12:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya people actually use the windows installer still too [12:43] Nebadon Izumi: on forge [12:43] WhiteStar Magic: Accessed from Main-Page: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Download [12:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya its diffrent branch [12:43] Nebadon Izumi: tagged branch [12:44] Nebadon Izumi: we generally do it for every release [12:44] WhiteStar Magic: There is no tagged for 6.9 yet [12:44] Nebadon Izumi: but thits time its most important because of the big refactoring [12:44] Nebadon Izumi: this is actually the only time its actually made a difference really [12:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont understand the tagging thing [12:44] WhiteStar Magic: yeah, sorry, I still feel PR merge should have been 0.7 [12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: so if 0.6.8 post fixes better than the last head pre p-r? [12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: *so is [12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt say "better" [12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: by better i mean more patches etc [12:45] Nebadon Izumi: but its got some fixes in there you cant get on OSgrid any other way [12:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: it has fixes that are post-refactor [12:45] Nebadon Izumi: but in a version thats still compatible with this grid [12:45] Nebadon Izumi: and older grids [12:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh cool [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: so ya [12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: might be worth it for us to have a test release [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats post fixes [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: with some of these new things we talked about [12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: so i just git checkout -b 0.6.8-post-fixes origin/0.6.8-post-fixes? [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: the startuplogo [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: new oar [12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: and thats it, carry on as i normally would ? [12:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think so [12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not done it yet [12:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: kk, ill have a go [12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: but its just a matter of changing branches [12:46] WhiteStar Magic: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim&h=refs/heads/0.6.9-post-fixes works with OSG and I use teh latest without major issues [12:46] Richardus Raymaker: bye adella [12:47] Revolution Smythe: cya Adelle [12:47] Nebadon Izumi: cool Whitestar [12:47] Nebadon Izumi: shes not leaving [12:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol, im not going, i meant ill try that [12:47] WhiteStar Magic: TP Safely Adelle [12:48] WhiteStar Magic: of course I did have to mod the OpenSim.ini in it and add teh search module and the other usuals but it's fine and I have abused it a fair amount in SA & Grid Attached mode [12:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya search is still shut off [12:49] Nebadon Izumi: hope we can fix that up soon [12:49] Nebadon Izumi: im hoping actually to write our own search stuff [12:49] Nebadon Izumi: thats incorporated directly into our web interface [12:49] Nebadon Izumi: and not an external module [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: it sholdnt be too hard to recreate the search stuff [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty basic [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: heh so much stuff to do [12:50]  Nebadon Izumi: oh btw [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: i got osgrid a SSL cert last night [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: sent all the info to dave [12:50] Nebadon Izumi: 2048bit cert [12:51] Nebadon Izumi: we want to make the entire website run in SSL connection [12:51] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if we'll implement it into Elgg, likely not, but the new interface will be secure [12:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool [12:52] Richardus Raymaker: ssl is good idea [12:52] WhiteStar Magic: Burn ELGG to the ground [12:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya [12:53]  Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [12:53] WhiteStar Magic: Fracken Nightmare [12:53] Richardus Raymaker: not to deep whitestar [12:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: i do like the features of elgg [12:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya its concepts are sound [12:53] Nebadon Izumi: its just not a good use of code i dont think [12:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: right [12:53] Nebadon Izumi: its too complicated [12:54] Nebadon Izumi: for the little we use it for especially [12:54] Nebadon Izumi: if we were embracing elgg in all its goodness [12:54] Nebadon Izumi: it would do sooo much more [12:54] Nebadon Izumi: but we have widdled it down to a fraction of its former self [12:54] Nebadon Izumi: overkill [12:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [12:55] WhiteStar Magic: a Simple CMS is fine [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: i really wish i havent grown to hate making websites [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: its just gotten so complicated [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: the fun is gone [12:55] WhiteStar Magic: but ELGG and Heavy weights like that are a royal Pain to manage [12:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont even understand why we need a cms [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: well CMS is a generic term [12:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: or is that so we can easily edit pages? [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: we need a custom CMS [12:55] Nebadon Izumi: not a readily available one [12:56] UUID Speaker: Howard Karre: 165a45eb-a27c-e2b1-9451-9700e358acdf [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: but managing regions/groups/friends is still managing content [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: ie Content Managemtn System [12:56] WhiteStar Magic: Actually, I use 2 Light CMS systems that are so simple and moddular it would make ya sick and it's so easy to plug whatever to them [12:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: gotcha [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: most modern cms though [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: try to do everything [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: they try to be google, facebook, yoututbe, twitter, and a shitlaod more [12:56] Nebadon Izumi: all in one [12:57] Nebadon Izumi: thats exactly what we dont need [12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe yeah, and use a billion cascading include files that make your eyes bleed [12:57] WhiteStar Magic: http://razorcms.co.uk/ & http://lightneasy.org/ [12:57] WhiteStar Magic: Those are simple, Light, Easy and totally modular, you use what you want / need [12:57] Nebadon Izumi: what we need is GCMS [12:57] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:57] Nebadon Izumi: new term [12:57] Nebadon Izumi: Grid Content Management System [12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: lol [12:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: how about a GMS :P [12:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya thats more the admin stuff though [12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: make the new WI a GMS [12:58] Nebadon Izumi: but ya somnething more custom [12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: oh i see [12:58] Nebadon Izumi: we need a special 6 finger glove [12:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: hahaa [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya the way i see it is there will be 2 parts [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: the Grid Managment [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: which is what you and I use to manage the back end [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: then the GCMS system which is the front end / semi-social interface [12:59] WhiteStar Magic: Shame, Hippo Finesmith just finished reworking WI to work with StandAlones too [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: it extends the grid [12:59] Nebadon Izumi: gives users a blog/group management/ scheduling [13:00] Nebadon Izumi: with the idea of in the future accessing this pannel in world [13:00] Revolution Smythe: SL 2 viewer features perhaps? [13:00] Nebadon Izumi: as time moves on the requirement to actually visit the website in IE/FF will diminish alot [13:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya [13:00]  Nebadon Izumi: with new veiwers [13:00] Nebadon Izumi: SL2/Nali [13:00] Revolution Smythe: its backported into 1.X supposedly [13:00] Revolution Smythe: as well as the new clothing stuff [13:00] Nebadon Izumi: ah nice [13:01] Nebadon Izumi: thats nice to hear [13:01] Nebadon Izumi: suprising infact [13:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: new clothing stuff? [13:01] Nebadon Izumi: probably a lot of server changes then [13:01] Revolution Smythe: tatooes and alpha [13:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya the no transprim dealio [13:01] Richardus Raymaker: the words "SL2" lets me always jump :O [13:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: ooo cool [13:01] Nebadon Izumi: lol [13:01] Revolution Smythe: i should finish up those features.... [13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Kirsten is reworking SL2, Toxic has done it and adapted / FIXED ui issues [13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Beta-2 is up and they are chopping it apart right now [13:02] Nebadon Izumi: cool [13:02] Nebadon Izumi: its still not real safe to use here right? [13:02] WhiteStar Magic: Even Boy Lane is fiddling with the SL2 code [13:02] Revolution Smythe: i used it here [13:02] Revolution Smythe: but i used it on my sims [13:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya i did too [13:02] Nebadon Izumi: but i undestand it can mess up your inventory [13:03] Richardus Raymaker: i hope there's a developer that can cobine SL2 with SL1 onterface [13:03] Revolution Smythe: i have some basic support for the stuff [13:03] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped using it after i heard that [13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: openmetaverse was updated, but to what length i dont know [13:03] WhiteStar Magic: it's pretty quirky with OpenSim [13:03] Richardus Raymaker: wel, since i tried it i have some extra folders in my inventory in sl [13:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ya opensim has not updated libomv yet [13:03] Revolution Smythe: think they did on trunk [13:03] Nebadon Izumi: not 100% i dont think anyway [13:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya i saw that too [13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, the changes went into trunk [13:03] Nebadon Izumi: but there is a note in that revision [13:03] WhiteStar Magic: it ate some of my stuff, killed teh textures on clothing and other items I was wearing when I logged in with SL2 [13:03] Nebadon Izumi: that says more work is required to actually use 2.0 [13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i dont think everything [13:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: right [13:04] Nebadon Izumi: jhurliman upgraded OpenSim’s versions of libomv to SVN r3268. This adds protocol support for Viewer 2.0 though work is still required in OpenSim to actually implement any features. [13:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: im laying off for now [13:04] WhiteStar Magic: and I cannot repair the stuff I do not have teh textures for [13:04] Richardus Raymaker: i think there more important things then some sl2 functions [13:04] Revolution Smythe: yeah [13:04] Revolution Smythe: libmov is done though [13:04] Richardus Raymaker: as long there's no good sl2 viewer its useless [13:04] Revolution Smythe: since i have one of the new packets in [13:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: atm though Richardus, the devs have little to none feedback for trunk, so they might as well play with stuff [13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: if they want that is [13:05]  Adelle Fitzgerald: though it really comes down to what devs do is what they want to do, when they want [13:05] Nebadon Izumi: well i didnt find the SL 2 viewer to be that bad [13:05] Nebadon Izumi: its just a lot differnt [13:05] Nebadon Izumi: mostly its the same [13:05] Revolution Smythe: yep [13:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive still not tried, even in sl [13:05]  Revolution Smythe: i hate not having the pie menu and the sidebar [13:05] WhiteStar Magic: I actually kinda like it [13:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its just all moved around [13:05] Revolution Smythe: yeah [13:05] Nebadon Izumi: but all the same stuff is there really [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya [13:06]  Nebadon Izumi: the pie menu is frustrating [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: but someone will fix that [13:06] Richardus Raymaker: it need to many clicks to do something simple [13:06] WhiteStar Magic: and now that panels can shrink and detach and go transpareent, it's a bit better [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: someone is going to put the pie menu back [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol [13:06] Revolution Smythe: hehe [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like that is easy [13:06] Nebadon Izumi: it would have nice to have it some of the changes be optional [13:07] Nebadon Izumi: able to revert back to the old ways [13:07] Nebadon Izumi: with a toggle [13:07] Richardus Raymaker: aha, the finaly made that [13:07] Revolution Smythe: yep [13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: i hope detaching panels and transparency doesnt cause a load on FPS [13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: thats one thing that bugs me about all the SL1 viewers [13:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: i open map, or inventory and my FPS drop slightly [13:07] Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont blame them for not wanting to drag old stuff forward etiher [13:07] Richardus Raymaker: can you add buttons add bottom ? like inventory map mini map friend ? do the have put the chat bard back in the chat window ? [13:08] Nebadon Izumi: my understanding is the new viewer should be easier for making built in huds and menus [13:08] WhiteStar Magic: Toxic & Kirsten did that [13:08] Nebadon Izumi: like customized stuff [13:08] WhiteStar Magic: and they are playing with teh PlugIn interface for stuff [13:08] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant say ive been following it too good lately [13:08] WhiteStar Magic: <--- has been keeping an eye on it [13:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya supposed to be able to make drop in modules [13:08] Nebadon Izumi: for the viewers [13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: i signed up for the SL opensource-dev mailing list, and quit 2 days later lol [13:09] WhiteStar Magic: "NOT looking at the code though" [13:09] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya me too Adelle [13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: it filled my inbox with utter junk and people fighting [13:09] Nebadon Izumi: no human could possibly read all that [13:09] Nebadon Izumi: and still have time for work [13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: haha [13:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: im not human :P but still, i dont care for their ramblings [13:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [13:10] Richardus Raymaker: did the put the old volume bar back. (at the bottom !) [13:12] Nebadon Izumi: last i saw it was at top right corner [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: very mac like [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [13:13] Richardus Raymaker: wel, for now SL2 upset me still pretty. [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya right now its a hassle [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not bothering either [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: let otehr people work out the bumps [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [13:13] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but you still cannot turn off audio seperate or set volume right ? [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: you can i think [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: the mixer is just moved [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: everythign is all scrambled [13:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [13:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will take a few weeks/months of using it to fully adjust [13:14] Nebadon Izumi: pretty much everything is there still though [13:14] Richardus Raymaker: that means 2 years for me :O thats what it costed me to get used to xp before i really started with it. lol [13:14] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [13:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya big changes are never fun [13:15] Richardus Raymaker: hmm i need to test it on other pc with new version. i give it 5 minutes [13:15] Nebadon Izumi: but generally in hind sight are worth it [13:15]  WhiteStar Magic: Neb, Q re LBSA [13:15] Nebadon Izumi: i think more good than bad will probably come of it [13:15]  Nebadon Izumi: sure [13:15] WhiteStar Magic: have you ever run /sstats on that region ? [13:16] Nebadon Izumi: we were until sqlite broke [13:16] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [13:16] WhiteStar Magic: IE, do you know what viewers are hiting it as displayed by sstats [13:16] Nebadon Izumi: no but our server proxies do [13:16]  Nebadon Izumi: we might be able to work that out [13:16] WhiteStar Magic: it works ok now BTW, I use it on my instances [13:16] Nebadon Izumi: last i looked there was like easily 50-100 differnt viewers [13:17] Revolution Smythe: hehe [13:17] Nebadon Izumi: that access osgrid [13:17] Revolution Smythe: i still use 1.18 from time to time [13:17] WhiteStar Magic: There is a theory that the New Hippo is causing some issues [13:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah, a scary amount [13:17] Revolution Smythe: so theres one uncommon one [13:17] Revolution Smythe: the new hippo is buggy [13:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are a crazy amount of custom viewers [13:17] WhiteStar Magic: yep [13:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya im still on hippo 0.5.1 [13:17] WhiteStar Magic: major mem leaks in it [13:17]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ive not seen any problems, its just the regions they all crash when im there.... [13:17] Nebadon Izumi: we should probably make a posting on how to stay on 0.5.1 [13:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: j/k hehe [13:18] WhiteStar Magic: I reverted to using only SL+CV now [13:18] Nebadon Izumi: how to edit the settings.xml [13:18] Bri Hasp is Online [13:18] Revolution Smythe: and how to remove the annoying setting [13:18] Nebadon Izumi: to disable auto update [13:18] Revolution Smythe: we could repackage the viewer [13:18] Revolution Smythe: with that already done [13:18] WhiteStar Magic: Good Idea Rev [13:18] Nebadon Izumi: well not really [13:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: im still using 0.6.2 and apart from a few apparent bugs, have not seen any impact on regions [13:18] Nebadon Izumi: the installer source code is not included [13:18] Nebadon Izumi: Mana has never release the installer source code [13:18] Bri Hasp is Offline [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: that downloads files from the linden svn [13:19] WhiteStar Magic: what about just posting a fixed XML for it [13:19]  Nebadon Izumi: no one knows how mana did it [13:19]  Revolution Smythe: that would work [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya [13:19]  Richardus Raymaker: i tried imprudence 1.3b2. but im back to 1.2.0 still the best one. something in 1.23 & opensim seems to bite [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: we can make a link to download the xml [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: and also explain the changes [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: for parainoid folks [13:19] Nebadon Izumi: who dont like dropping in alien files [13:19] WhiteStar Magic: That may be the simplest and cleanest option [13:20] Nebadon Izumi: we could even post a link to adelles ui changes [13:20] Nebadon Izumi: all in 1 posting [13:22] Adelle Fitzgerald: i gotat run, grab some food [13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: *gotta [13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill catch yas later [13:23] WhiteStar Magic: Have a Good One Adelle [13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: byeee! [13:23] Adelle Fitzgerald is Offline [13:23] Revolution Smythe: cya Adelle [13:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        1d4d6c8: 2010-02-09 20:25:24 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [13:27] Richardus Raymaker: aaargh. [13:27] Richardus Raymaker: sorry. try to open search in sl 2 no button [13:27] Richardus Raymaker: i mean map [13:27] WhiteStar Magic: Their search changed [13:28] WhiteStar Magic: SL2 uses a diff search mechanism then 1.2x viewers [13:28] Richardus Raymaker: what the did wrong. the move the sidebar buttons. [13:28] WhiteStar Magic: you tthink your having fun now, wait till you try to uninstall it [13:29]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm the dropped some stuppid non important move button at the bottom. instead of usefull buttons [13:29] Richardus Raymaker: oh noo. i dont do that. btw no problem. copy datadir unstall copy datadir back. buit its on other test pc [13:29] Richardus Raymaker: but i go out. the interface is still bad. [13:30] Richardus Raymaker: something impoirtant like map is not findable [13:31] WhiteStar Magic: see ya'll around, have a good one [13:31] Revolution Smythe: cya Whitestar [13:31] Richardus Raymaker: bye whitestar. [13:31] WhiteStar Magic is Offline [13:31] Richardus Raymaker: will look again later at sl2 [13:31] Richardus Raymaker: ok. i go home to [13:31] Revolution Smythe: cya RiRa [13:32] Richardus Raymaker: bye nebadon, revo [13:32] Richardus Raymaker: btw my server needs more ram im afraid. or opensim/mono need to use less [13:39] Tesira Luco is Online [13:43] Entering god mode, level 255 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 6 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 8 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 9 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 10 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 11 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 12 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 13 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 16 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 18 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 19 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 20 [13:47] mediawall: loaded 15