Chat log from the meeting on 2010-02-09

[11:04] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:05] Bri Hasp: must be contigous [11:05] Dahlia Trimble: hmmm textures arent downloading at all for me [11:05]  Krahazik Dragon: not sure if thatw a sa good thing or not though [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, maybe the ones I am seeing are cached [11:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: does the asset server have problems? [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia part black [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: justin grey [11:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: Dahlia is black [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: locally I appear to be naked - so be thankful for the grey :) [11:06]  Snoopy Pfeffer: Marc grey [11:06]  Dahlia Trimble does a quick vanity rebake... [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: we hyave all colors today [11:06]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:06]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and sim with many colors hehe [11:06]  Bri Hasp: a lot of Wright has not rez'd.. unusual here [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: lets see what a force update does [11:06]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        5dc278b: 2010-02-06 01:05:58 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: an I still all black? [11:06]  Krahazik Dragon: some poeple look normal to me, other gray, others not at all [11:06]  sim core trying to rebake 10 min ago :-J [11:06]  Bri Hasp: yep [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: your grey to me so far [11:07]  Bri Hasp: what are ya running Neb here [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: certainly looks like something is on the blink [11:07] Krahazik Dragon: no your gray Dahlia [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: I did experience the same 2 hours ago - rebake did not help [11:07] Dahlia Trimble: Im not receiving any textures [11:07] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev)        5dc278b: 2010-02-06 01:05:58 -0800 (Unix/Mono) [11:07] Hiro Protagonist: me neither [11:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: as well as going into edit appearance mode [11:07] Hiro Protagonist: I have a very few [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, just got your coverings dahlia [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: let me try to kick asset server [11:07] Krahazik Dragon: Dahlia, would you be the same Dahlia that wa sjust at the AWG metting in SL? [11:08] Dahlia Trimble: thats me :) [11:08]  Bri Hasp: I am very happy with r/12197 [11:08]  Krahazik Dragon: that im still at tehcnically [11:08]  Krahazik Dragon: im Krahazik Zaytsev over there, Dragon wasn't an option for a last name when i created the av on SL. [11:08]  sim core: Replacing outfit now [11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: wich date is that ? i still use the 3-0-10 [11:08]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: 3-1 [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ok i just restartd asset server [11:08]  Bri Hasp: not had a crash since I started that ver [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: see if that makes any difference [11:08]  OtakuMegane Desu: Still on that one too [11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: may need a relog of something [11:09]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Andsim [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hi andsim [11:09]  Krahazik Dragon: should we all rebake? [11:10]  Andsim Hammerer: hi guys [11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not seen any change so far [11:10] Revolution Smythe: hello [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hello andsim [11:10] Hiro Protagonist: me neither [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: possible its just the sim acting up [11:10]  Bri Hasp: have a feeling WP wont hold today :( [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, we'll just have to see :) [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon, itakumegane [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: the old girl might make it yet [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: seems to be running ok [11:11]  Snoopy Pfeffer: are there new stable opensim versions worth to update to? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: just not delivering all the textures in a timely fashion [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: more ductape then [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise the stats are very low [11:11] Bri Hasp: black Av's non textured prims [11:11] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i only see 2 prims that are grey myself [11:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you still use r.482dcb7? [11:12] Bri Hasp: I am 35 mb down [11:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: that is the last version communicated on osgrid.org [11:12] Krahazik Dragon: im still on r.482dcb7 i think [11:12] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: k [11:12]  Krahazik Dragon: let me ask the server right wuick [11:12] Snoopy Pfeffer: I use a version close to that [11:13] Krahazik Dragon: yup [11:13] Snoopy Pfeffer: are newer versions too risky to use? [11:13] Hiro Protagonist: so whats on the old agenda today [11:13] Snoopy Pfeffer: because of the onging refactoring? [11:13] zaphrod zenovka: opensim_5dc278b-r12198 on linux seems to be working for me [11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: im still at 9c4 dont se much use for a few days older version [11:13] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks zaphrod [11:14] Krahazik Dragon: So far I try to keep up with the current version posted on the OSgrid.org website [11:14] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes that version is quite old [11:14] Andsim Hammerer: 482dcb7: this my [11:14]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that was posted 27 days ago! [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya I can update that [11:14] Krahazik Dragon: so ther eis a newer version neb? [11:14]  Snoopy Pfeffer: ok Neb hehe [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ive been waiting for other patches [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but i can get another revision out [11:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: cool [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure it will change much of anything though [11:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks Neb [11:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: how close are Melanie and Diva to finish the refactoring? [11:15] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:15] Snoopy Pfeffer: does anybody know? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not sure, 2 weeks? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:16] Revolution Smythe: i heard a week or two [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: days to weeks [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: to quote the movie "money pit" [11:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: still two weeks, like 2 weeks ago?? ;) [11:16] Bri Hasp: I ride the trunk.. pick certain devs that appear to run/test .Net [11:16]  Hiro Protagonist: depends on how things go [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: done when it's done [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: :) [11:16] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:16] sim core: :-J [11:16] Bri Hasp: weird system huh [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: im joking, i really dont know honestly [11:16] Snoopy Pfeffer: ok lol [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: we'll give ample notice to when its going to happen though [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: right now there isnt even a full migration path yet [11:17] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon when do u go to use "its done when its done" ? :) [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be really good - I think we need some stabilizatio ntime afterwards to work out what will probably be quite a few kinks [11:17]  Snoopy Pfeffer: good, best give ppl at least 3 days to prepare for the bumpy ride ;) [11:17] Hiro Protagonist: My suspicion is that migration path will resemble something like running a second set of grid services on 0.7 [11:17] Hiro Protagonist: but that is speculation, and one of several possible ways of doing it [11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: i dunno [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: the dataabase will change drasticly [11:18] Bri Hasp: migration? as in the Donnor party [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think there will be any side by side [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i would expect no grid for 24-48 hours [11:18] Hiro Protagonist: right - I mean on a completely seperate (and new) set of tables [11:18] Andsim Hammerer: oh hw secure is content on 0.7 [11:18] Revolution Smythe: it already has changed drastically [11:18] Andsim Hammerer: ? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it Hiro theres too much data [11:18] Revolution Smythe: the tables are all new [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it could take days just to convert [11:18] Revolution Smythe: all the old user tables are not used now [11:18] Hiro Protagonist: my thinking is, we can migrate the data with oars [11:19] Penny Lane: Probably best if the migration doesn't coincide with April 1st. Might worry some people. [11:19] Hiro Protagonist: it's operator-directed and distributed [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: it could take over 24 hours to migrate data to new tables [11:19] Bri Hasp: Uuuuuuu [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: possibly more [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: hope SL is not down in the 48 hours. [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: theres no way to sync the data [11:19] Snoopy Pfeffer: not again such a 1st April fools joke ;) [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we would have to convert twice [11:19]  Hiro Protagonist: one thing is for sure, its a game-changer [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: he he he, I suspect we won't see anything too crazy this april after last year :) [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: but who knows [11:19] Bri Hasp: maybe run Lit? [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:19] Bri Hasp: Lite^ [11:20] Revolution Smythe: the scene object refactor will be coming up sometime after .7 [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but ya we'll see right now there is no real migration path yet [11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: migration will need manual intervention - I hope all will be able to do that properly! [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but i can tell you alot of tables are getting trashed completely [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: some of the main tables too [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so migration could take a bit of time to complete [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I would think there will be a migration path. Otherwise we'll talk a bit credibility hit [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is the grid will be offline during that time [11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes that is very important Justin [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: even if we are able to run side by side [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bit = big [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: which i dont think is possible [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: I dont think it would be possible for them to share data [11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: well many things could be done with a script that provides options to choose from [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I really think there will be pretty automatic migration - everybody has data that they don't want to lose [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: short of something odd like a table format adapter [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya this is a very complicated migration [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: alot of the database conversions will not be actualyl part of core [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but i think something we have to do manually ourselves [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: who was saying that? [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: people need to have long enopugh the time to get and read and make updates then. say 1 week at least before it happens [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but luckily Melanie will be helping with it all [11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: it has to be made as simple as possible [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: wb dahlia [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: ty :) [11:22]  Dahlia Trimble couldnt tp back [11:22]  Bri Hasp: not black anymore [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: oh I am not sure thats sorta what i heard on opensim-dev [11:22]  Bri Hasp: grey now [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: that it might not be a clear migration for osgrid [11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but as far as I understand it all region owners will also face that changed database structure [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont know about in general Justin [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i just mean for osgrid [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and Melanie cannot help all of them [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think I may well send a query to opensim-dev to get the definitive answer - we really need to know up front on this one [11:23]  zaphrod zenovka: <-- volunteers to help test any migration process, playing part of dumb enduser [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh okya. Otherwise Melanie is gonna be helping a helluvalot of people :) [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: its just our tables are so freakin large [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: some waving pitchforks, no doubt [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:23]  Revolution Smythe: i dont believe that the core is going to make an update for the tables [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yyep [11:23]  Bri Hasp: think I'll create a mirror standalone during [11:23]  Fue Overlord: hey all [11:23]  Revolution Smythe: everyone will have to manually fix it themselves [11:23]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Fue [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: we've always had the migrations in core in the past - not sure why that would change even if large grids have to do things manually [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: yes but its supposed to be well documented [11:24]  Krahazik Dragon: lol @ zap [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: at the time it will be released too is my understanding [11:24]  Krahazik Dragon: hekc I'd volunteer for that role [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: that Diva and Mel will have clear instructions [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: even if its not automated [11:24] Fue Overlord: I'm relatively new, is this a meeting of some kind? [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: yes

[11:27] Bri Hasp is Online [11:27] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:27] Connected [11:27] Snoopy Pfeffer: wb [11:27]  Penny Lane: Oh no! Not the bad old days of crashy crashy again :-( [11:27]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:28]  Bri Hasp: pfft [11:28]  Biribi Bagration: ooppsss [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well after the big update it will be worse I expect [11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: it would be perfect if oar worked good. but im told oar is not perfect for everything. [11:28]  Snoopy Pfeffer: 1 or 2 weeks will be a quite bumpy ride [11:28]  Penny Lane: After all the effort the group went through to remove the crash bugs a month or two ago .... what's happening again? [11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: what wil be worser snoopy ? [11:28]  Adelle Fitzgerald is Online [11:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, but sort of a good bumpy lol [11:29]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well after the big update I expect problems [11:29]  Richardus Raymaker: i dont expect bugfree weeks after the bump [11:29]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes exactly Rich [11:29] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:29] Penny Lane: Sure, but that's a Big Bang thing. Won't be the norm. [11:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes sure that is normal for developers - but not for normal residents [11:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: ;) [11:29]  Andsim Hammerer: lol [11:30]  Penny Lane: Huge structural changes of that kind won't be common in the life of the project. [11:30]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Arielle [11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: well i dont see any missing textures now [11:30]  Adelle Fitzgerald: wow that was bizarre, just sat and ended up in the next sim [11:30]  Arielle Popstar: Hi Snoopy [11:30]  Bri Hasp: what does all this improve? [11:30]  Snoopy Pfeffer: really Adelle? [11:30]  Adelle Fitzgerald: yeah [11:30]  Penny Lane: Adelle: ah, so it's becoming SL-compatible then ^_^ [11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: hin arielle [11:31]  Adelle Fitzgerald: not just the next one either, diagonally next [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: its not about really improving though ti will improve [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: the ability to continue deployment of new features and chase bugs out of old ones [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim is not complete [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: its about completing this very incomplete peiece of software [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we are alpha .6 [11:31] Bri Hasp: is it just academic then? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: expect more breakage [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: for a long while [11:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Less bubblegum and paperclips. [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: we are far from done [11:31] Krahazik Dragon: I crahsed [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: / [11:31] Revolution Smythe: 1.0 is still very far away [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but mostly its about getting to 1.0 there is soo much to do still [11:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: the goal should be 1.0 this year! [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: ,7 may actually get it's own branch with some more significant development [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: more ductape otaku ? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: wont happen [11:32] Penny Lane: Krah: we were all dropped [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: we wont see 1.0 this year [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I doubt we'll see 1.0 this year too [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so dont hold your breath on that [11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: Ducttape would be an improvement lol [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: we might see .8 this year [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: if were lucky [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: or end of alpha - possibly next though [11:32] sim core: :-j [11:32] Bri Hasp: I doubt 1.0 till 2012 [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: we dont even have a viewer people [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, that's very downplaing expectations Nebadon :) [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: wel, as long region come back in new version after restart without hopping first to plaza and IM's work betetr that would be very nice [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: how can we get to 1.0 without our own viewer? [11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: someone tell me that? [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: the naali 0.1 looks quite impressive [11:32]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: it would be nice if it did sl avatars [11:32]  Hiro Protagonist: we dont have an -official- viewer [11:32]  OtakuMegane Desu: We probably can't, neb [11:33]  Hiro Protagonist: speaking of viewers, how did naali work out? [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: exactly, I dont think we can [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: Naali did not run good for me at all [11:33]  Bri Hasp: I ran it for hours.. is very very slow and rough Justin [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: i crash very fast [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: kk [11:33]  Penny Lane: Neb, 0.7 is the completion of ROBUST. What are the 0.8 and 0.9 watershed developments? [11:33] Revolution Smythe: Naali is still .1 [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: or get very low fps [11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes for me too [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: at tops i get maybe 5-6fps [11:33] Revolution Smythe: think of when opensim was .1 [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: oh really? That was with taiga? [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: even on Rex sims [11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: Naali crashes all the time [11:33] Bri Hasp: yes [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya it crashes within about 2-3 minutes [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: nobody knows yet :) [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and gets very low fram rate right now [11:33]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and under linux compiling is really tricky [11:33]  Revolution Smythe: opensim crashed all the time at .1 as well [11:33]  Penny Lane: JCC: hahaha [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: oh sure [11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's somewhat new that there's even some rough idea for .8 [11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: er .7 [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: im not complaining, its just not useable yet [11:34]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and the new sl viewer will change expectations [11:34]  Hiro Protagonist: howso? [11:34]  Bri Hasp: on Wn not tried any other [11:34]  OtakuMegane Desu: Most of last year was spent just in .6 range [11:34]  Snoopy Pfeffer: well it will have 3d meshes [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so still very early for naali yet - they're honest that it's alpha after all [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: actually [11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: and other extensions [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: Naali is good with Rex server [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: its much much better [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but in terms of OpenSim [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt work very good [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no sculpties [11:34] Bri Hasp: true Neb [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: crashes every 10 seconds [11:34] Bri Hasp: no lots of stuff [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, be ineteresting to see the new sl 2.0 viewer - may well be a rush to bung the functionality in opensim [11:35] Penny Lane: Naali is certainly the dark horse with ramjets attached. I think it's going to be big. [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: as many sculpts as there are, thats almost as bad as avs rendered as spheres [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya i expect its going to be awesome [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: but it will be a good year or more [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm susprised they dont' spend some effort on getting it to work with sl - would boost their uptake [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: before its to a use it all the time level [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: so is radegast/looking glass [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: it works at least that good [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya i would say all the open viewers including naali are at the same level in terms of OpenSim [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: they all work about the same [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: look about the same [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I think we should draw a big release plan [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: with what is in what realease [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: and what isnt in it [11:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: ... [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i would say Naali is no further along right now than Idealist is [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: I suspect someone has: those actually writing the code [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: otherwise we always tend to say 1.0 has all in it! [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: so it will never end! [11:36] zaphrod zenovka: Snoopy, that would be like.... organization [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of OpenSim connectivity and rendering [11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Alpha doesn't quite work that way lol. [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes lol [11:36] Penny Lane: JCC: it would tie them in chains. Chasing tail lights is neither fun nor a good way to make progress. I think reX are doing the right thing in ignoring SL. [11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: many open source projects are organized ;) [11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: back again [11:37]  Hiro Protagonist: this one is too - it just morphs over time [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: maybe. Makes it difficult for them to get traction though. I'm also not sure if people don't overestimate the importance of meshes - particularly with the inability to edit them in -world and current hardware [11:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: Part of the issue with that is it's not settled exactly what the final form will be. [11:37]  Hiro Protagonist: and if you arent at the center of the action, you arent at the center of design ether [11:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: Especially since user inoput is a factor. [11:37]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Otaku that is a problem [11:37]  Revolution Smythe: i heard naali was going to have the ability to edit meshes inworld at one point [11:37]  Penny Lane: JCC: textures can't be editted in world either, nor sculpties. [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya via Blender plugins or something [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: true, true [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i heard that too [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Neb [11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Not like a lot of software that the company plans something out how they want to do it. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: I think its great what Naali is doing the direction its heading [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its just long road to the end [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: years [11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I think without some clearer guidance to a goal we will continue to wait for 1.0 much longer [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you're in the long view mood today :) [11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: if you cannot edit meshes inworld like JCC says . then dump it for a while [11:38]  Hiro Protagonist: lol [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: well its highly complex the viewers [11:38]  Bri Hasp: me too...lol [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: especially cross platform [11:38]  Penny Lane: JCC: working in VWRAP, I'me very conscious of the damping effect LL has on progress, to suit their business interests. I wouldn't wish that on reX. [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: it could take years just to get all the hardware worked out [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'm just saying that there's a lot of different communities using virtual-environments. Different things are important to different sections. The more of those sections you can hit the better off you'll be [11:39]  Bri Hasp: neede stuff to play with in retirement [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: hardware thats constantly changing [11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: do we want to develop until all requirements we can think of have been realized? ;) [11:39] Catherine Pfeffer: Salut sim, hi snoopy [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: you think that dampening effect improves the stability of the process or is it all -ve? [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: starting from scratch is tough for sure its nothing like the servers [11:39]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Catherine [11:39]  Hiro Protagonist: hi Cat [11:39]  Catherine Pfeffer: hi hiro [11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: hi cathrine [11:39]  sim core: Hi catherine, and all [11:40]  Krahazik Dragon: i don't mind not being able to edit meshes in world, as long as I can say import them easilly without distortion form say a .OBJ file [11:40]  Fue Overlord: yo [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: But i think right now Naali is the best chance we have of seeing a viewwer through to the end [11:40]  Revolution Smythe: naali is our best chance i believe as well [11:40]  Snoopy Pfeffer: meshes will be the standard in some months [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: it certainly has the most momentum behind it [11:40]  Snoopy Pfeffer: we need them [11:40] Krahazik Dragon: a true 3d format, that would be nice [11:40] Revolution Smythe: naali needs to be semi-finished first though [11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: and ppl will expect some compatibility with sl [11:40]  Snoopy Pfeffer: unfortunately [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: hope someone find a mesh editor with the easy use of sl editor [11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: They may just have to get over SL :P [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya in terms of a viewer Naali is great [11:41] Revolution Smythe: yes it is [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: especially on the Rex servers [11:41] Penny Lane: By the way, we gave you guys a nice mention in IEEE INternet Computing --- see the PDF in http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ogpx/current/msg00806.html --- Hurli, Darren and Steffan got mentioned by name. (Issue was published a couple of weeks ago) [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: im talking about connecting to OpenSIm right now [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its not good [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks Penny [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: if your in a full Rex environtment its really awesome [11:41] sim core mostly would need a way to make the neighbouring regions invisible, not the other way around like it is possible in the opensim.ini :-J [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the question is how can we get that to OpenSim [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: when can we connect rex regions to osgrid? [11:41] Revolution Smythe: well, naali is meant to connect to rxt servers natively [11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes exactly Neb [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Adam keeps telling me we already can [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: theoretically you already can [11:42] Revolution Smythe: rex regions CAN be connected to the OSG [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but i dunno no one has done it [11:42]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [11:42]  Revolution Smythe: ive done it before [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: but I dont know how to do it yet [11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: can we?? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I have had zero luck myself [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: nice idea sim [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer crashes to much for me [11:42]  Snoopy Pfeffer: the user authentication is very different! [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: so i cant ever know [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see why some bits of taiga shouldn't move into opensim with time, though with care to make sure it's accessible to anyone who wants to write a viewer and that it makes good architectural sense [11:42] Revolution Smythe: i use modrex modules [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I crash about 30 seconds to 2 minutes after logging in [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: no matter where i am [11:42]  Snoopy Pfeffer: and we need mesh avatar models as well as sl ones in parallel [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: generic stuff. Well, some mesh support may well come in soon [11:43] Andsim Hammerer: neb clo7uds be ur graphic card? [11:43] Penny Lane: Early days. Miracle it works at all really :-) [11:43] Revolution Smythe: well, after the scene object refactor, opensim will be able to store the mesh data [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a Nvidia 250 GTS [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it [11:43]  Andsim Hammerer: ooh [11:43]  Snoopy Pfeffer: that is good news Revolution [11:43]  Revolution Smythe: the scene object refactor will allow for other properties to be added to objects [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ive never had much luck with Rex viewers though [11:43]  OtakuMegane Desu: Meshies [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: even the SL based one crashed constantly [11:43]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but we need support for different avatar models in parallel [11:43]  Revolution Smythe: can't see why you couldnt attach a mesh to it [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: on all my computers [11:44]  Snoopy Pfeffer: I hope that's also included [11:44]  Penny Lane: Snoopy++ [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: but i still think its our best chance [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:44] Bri Hasp: on my 295 I see clouds, black and greys here.. rarely on SL [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: well this aint SL lets not start comparing it to SL [11:44]  Penny Lane: Neb++ [11:44] Penny Lane: :P [11:44] Krahazik Dragon: agreed neb [11:45] Bri Hasp: well he asked [11:45] Fue Overlord: yes yes, you know how to code in C++ [11:45] Fue Overlord: and C I suppose [11:45] Andsim Hammerer: now what about TOS? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not to far a leap to C# then [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: if you know C [11:45]  Snoopy Pfeffer: so the goal is to split form sl de facto standards and develop our own protocols and viewers beside the server? [11:45] Friendly Harbour: hello everyone .... i managed to get in at last [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: andsim, i think it need some more lines [11:45] Snoopy Pfeffer: from* [11:45] sim core: ( Actually, ++C is supposed to be faster ;-J [11:45]  Penny Lane: SL semi-compatibility was just a stepping stone. I'm pretty sure the future of Opensim will leave SL in the dust. [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: c++ and c# are very different [11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: hi friendly [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: oh i know [11:46]  Revolution Smythe: yeah [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: but if you can understand C++ [11:46]  Andsim Hammerer: k [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: you can understand C# [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh, yeah :) [11:46] Bri Hasp: I never forget we are 80 or so inworld.. they are 35000 so meta say [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: C++ is monumentally harder [11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: well te viewer side is very important [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yeah, people do get a bit ahead of themselves [11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: then Naali really has to become a big success [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but ya actually if you know C++ [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but it's always difficult to judge how much usage is out there [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you should be working on the viewer [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and not the simulator [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:46] Bri Hasp: true [11:47] Fue Overlord: Is naali a viewer? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: we neeed viewer devs [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: we need more devs everywhere really [11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Concurrency here is pretty accurate I think. SL has a lot of bots and camper clones [11:47] Fue Overlord: why is hippo no being mentioned? [11:47] Revolution Smythe: im starting to learn C++, as I plan to work on the viewer as well [11:47] zaphrod zenovka: <-- buying coffee/redbull for devs [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya the great thing about Naali [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: Hippo is dead [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: is all of the OpenSim devs can work on it [11:47]  Fue Overlord: oh? [11:47] Snoopy Pfeffer: not developed anymore [11:47] Revolution Smythe: Hippo has been dead for awhile [11:47] Bri Hasp: Hippo is old reliable :) [11:47]  Revolution Smythe: Bri: yep :) [11:47] zaphrod zenovka: nods at Bri [11:47] Andsim Hammerer: yes [11:48] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Hippo still is the most stable viewer [11:48] Fue Overlord: then why is it that its the recommended for use on the main webpage? [11:48] Fue Overlord: ah [11:48]  Arielle Popstar: for some [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if you have worked on a SL based viewer you are excluded from submitting patches to OpenSIm or Naali for minimum of 6 months [11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: depending on your involvment [11:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Hippo is more stable than Meerkat for me but worse than just about everything else [11:48] Penny Lane: Use Imprudence instead of Hippo. It has the same reliability in OSgrid, but is much more modern [11:48] Richardus Raymaker: imprudence works pretty ok for the 1.2.0 [11:48] Krahazik Dragon: I only mention hippo to ne users ot OSgrid as a quick way og getting in-world till they can get in with their regular viewer, IE emerald [11:48] Snoopy Pfeffer: Imprudence did not work stable for me [11:48]  Dahlia Trimble: I have teleport problems with Imprudence on osgrid [11:49] Fue Overlord: ok, so I'm using hippo, which one should I be using? [11:49] Krahazik Dragon: I can't gett Meerkat to stay running for veryr long on my system. [11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Fue: WHichever works [11:49] Friendly Harbour: i still use hippo in opensim and impludence 1.3 in sl [11:49]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Meerkat is very unstable [11:49] Krahazik Dragon: agree with Otako [11:49] Andsim Hammerer: i been on emerald viewer it work fine as long u know hard coded of login [11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: It's still mostly your own choice of whatever suits you best [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: and Emerald has problems with opensim in general [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy did u used the secondlife dll to replace openjpeg [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: Im using the standard SL viewer right now [11:49] Krahazik Dragon: it does snoopy? [11:49] Fue Overlord: well so far I have heard of about 4 or 5 different ones [11:49] Snoopy Pfeffer: Rich, for the viewer? [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: aha dahlia, i have teleport problems to [11:50]  Krahazik Dragon: basiaclly FUe, you will have ot try severla and see what works best for you and oyur system [11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw Meta7 says that they use a modifier Emerald [11:50] Fue Overlord: hm [11:50]  Krahazik Dragon: its like internet browsers [11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: does anybody know about that? [11:50] Fue Overlord: sure [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: My Undestanding is Meta7 requires a special server back end [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but i could be wrong [11:50] Fue Overlord: which should I try first, in your opinion? [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: yes. i tell you after the meeting more [11:50] Krahazik Dragon: several to chose from, now all work well on all systems and the rets is personal preferance [11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes they use a modified opensim version [11:50] Revolution Smythe: I think that in the future, we should support the SL viewer, and allow for it to be used, but move toward another viewer (perhaps naali) for what we need opensim to do [11:50]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but it is based on opensim [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:50]  Krahazik Dragon: im biased toward GreenLife Emerald myself [11:51] Andsim Hammerer: i end up build viewer for my grid [11:51] Fue Overlord: ok [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: the modifications are for sharing Windlight settings [11:51] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Revolution [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: you can pass people your windlight with Meta7 [11:51] Krahazik Dragon: but it take a bit of work to get loge din with emerald [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats the only difference [11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: I've gotten to like Emerald too [11:51] Snoopy Pfeffer: but that means that we also need support the sl 3d meshes [11:51] Bri Hasp: I like Snowglobe [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but eventually i suspect windlight will go away [11:51] Krahazik Dragon: need to push the Emerald team a bit more ot ad din a grid selection menu on the login screne so its easier ot login to differant grids [11:51] Bri Hasp: fastest [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its why the lindens have not integrated to the servers [11:51] Richardus Raymaker: Meta7 dont like that name ^^ [11:51] Revolution Smythe: Snowglode is a good viewer [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect its going to die in the next 12-18 monrha [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: months* [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: be replace with new lighting system [11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, the lack of grid options is probably my only real complaint [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i personally think Meta7 is wasting time playing with windlight [11:52] Snoopy Pfeffer: they anyway waste time not giving us their bug fixes ;) [11:52]  Krahazik Dragon: another option for emerald mite be the option meerkat has ot TP from one grid to another [11:53]  Krahazik Dragon: assuming you have a matching acocunt/av on the grid your tyring to TP too [11:53]  Revolution Smythe: the old realxtend viewer had that; it worked well [11:53]  Krahazik Dragon: got that to work once TPing form SL to OSgrid with my othe rOSG av [11:53]  Fue Overlord: google.com [11:53]  Penny Lane: Emerald devs don't think "open grids". They're basically focussed on SL, they'd said so. [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya Emerald is a SL viewer [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: not intended for use really here [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: though im sure it works [11:54]  Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Penny, but the Meta7 did some things with Emerald [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: as most standard viewers should [11:54] Krahazik Dragon: I have noticed few problems with emerald here [11:54] Krahazik Dragon: havn't noticed that is [11:54]  Fue Overlord: gonna try emerald [11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: buying land does not work with emerald [11:54] Arielle Popstar: no [11:54]  Krahazik Dragon: havn't tried that [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: you have to add teh helperuri [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: thats why it doesnt work [11:54] Andsim Hammerer: i have sorce code emerald i could make one. [11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh ok [11:55]  Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe they forgot that [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: add helperuri to shortcut [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and it will [11:55] Andsim Hammerer: i have it work to buy land [11:55] Krahazik Dragon: there's an idea, make an OpenSim verison of Emerald [11:55] sim core: I'm mostly going to try one that will keep: A- the full perm inventory an B- the avatar full perm clothing :-) [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe its called Imprudence [11:55]  Revolution Smythe: yep [11:55]  Penny Lane: Neb: should *for now* .... but the future is very different. Even if Opensim maintains backward compatibility, you''ll get progressively less and less Opensim feature support from LL-based viewers. The future really isn't in that direction, which is why I'm looking with hope at Naali, [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats basiclly the OpenSim version of emerald [11:55]  Krahazik Dragon: I just might give Imprudence a try [11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: hope one that dont remove my secondlife password from the sl viewer. emerald is a bit to nested with secondlife viewer [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no reason the emerald patches cant be put into imprudence [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: both are opensource and GPL [11:56] Arielle Popstar: neillife talking of focusing his viewer for opensim [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: someone just has to port it [11:56]  Friendly Harbour: i am quite happy using imprudence in SL ... and i love the minimap+radar solution they use [11:56] Snoopy Pfeffer: well the new sl viewer will have changed the source code a lot from what some ppl told me [11:56]  Krahazik Dragon: oh whats that? [11:56] Revolution Smythe: yeah, in the future, i don't see the SL viewer being a real option for opensim [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its just people who can work on opensim and the SL based viewers dont exist [11:56] Friendly Harbour: but i still prefer hippo on opensim grids [11:56] Penny Lane: The Imprudence devs are very supportive of Opensim. We held our UXIG meeting here a fortnight ago instead of in SL. [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: krahazik, if imprudence crash. try this. [11:56] zaphrod zenovka: Is there an 'official' viewer testing program with opensim? [11:56] Richardus Raymaker: Do you have a copy of llkdu.dll from a second life viewer install lying around you can try? Putting it in the Imprudence folder will cause it to be used instead of openjpeg. [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: so that area is seriously lacking devs [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to fly all [11:57] Hiro Protagonist waves [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: me too, RL time [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :) [11:57]  Snoopy Pfeffer: this month ll should make the new viewer available for testing [11:57]  sim core: See-you, hiro :-) [11:57] Fue Overlord: See ya, deliverator [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya were about wrapped up here with todays meeting [11:57] Bri Hasp: ciao [11:57] Marc User: bye [11:57] Revolution Smythe: Snoopy: really, that soon? [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [11:57] Bri Hasp is Offline [11:57] sim core: Bye, dahlia [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: not too bad, things were not 100% [11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect i need to incrase mono threads on this hardware [11:57] Penny Lane: Richardus: there's two KDU files you need to poke in, one goes in bin/ and the other in /lib [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: might be some of our problems [11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: the date I did hear was middle of February [11:58] Catherine Pfeffer gave you Faux Build - 0.1.1. [11:58] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:58] Snoopy Pfeffer: but you never know ;) [11:58]  Revolution Smythe: looks like I might have something interesting to look at here in a few weeks [11:58]  Penny Lane: lib/ [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i use only 1 in the main directory of imprudence penny. it works fine [11:58]  Penny Lane: Odd [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: or do you point at teleport problems penny ? [11:58]  Snoopy Pfeffer: some ppl saw that viewer already and they were impressed [11:58]  Penny Lane: Oh, I mean on Linux [11:58]  Zilla Larsson: hi everybody [11:59]  Snoopy Pfeffer: but I think on the server side we can implement what is needed quite quickly [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: did meerkat ever make any official announcement of their project closure? [11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: no i run windows penny [11:59]  OtakuMegane Desu: Not a very loud announcement if it did lol [11:59]  Penny Lane: kk [11:59]  Catherine Pfeffer: i don't think so justin, and i still use meerkat [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: No everyone just kind of poofed [11:59] Penny Lane: Communication wasn't Meerkat's forte. I think they were a stealth project :P [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: KOW was the only one working on the project i heard directly from [12:00] Friendly Harbour: several meerkat devs moved to imprudence [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: he said things seem to be dead, im moving to imprudence [12:00] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol [12:00] Krahazik Dragon: I'll give Imprudance a lookie. Anoy one know how well it owrks in SL? [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: not tried it in SL myself [12:00] Arielle Popstar: which is why i get the same memory errors with both viewers i guess ;) [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but i used it here and on ScienceSim [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: its not bad [12:00]  Friendly Harbour: i use imprudence as my main sl viewer ... works fine for me [12:01]  Krahazik Dragon: I worked ot get emerald in SOgrid cas I didn't like swithcing clients [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: has a few issues but nothing too serious [12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: its my main osgrid viewer [12:01]  Krahazik Dragon: especially when i get use dot a feature and then change clients for the othe rgrid and now im missing functions [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright, bye folks. btw, I'm v prob. going to make a post to the lists later to clarify the coming migratio nsituation [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I really want it to be clear [12:01]  Friendly Harbour: there are some stability issues, but i am using v1.3 test and that isn't the most stable [12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Justin [12:01] Revolution Smythe: bye [12:01] Krahazik Dragon: had that problem big time when i first got on OSgrid and was using hippo [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:01] sim core: See-you justin, bye all =) [12:01]  Misterblue Waves: bye all [12:01]  Penny Lane: Krah: I use Imprudence permanently in SL and here. On Linux 32-bit, it just stays up and does everything, period. And I never log out on SL. [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:02]  Arielle Popstar: tc Justin [12:02]  Friendly Harbour: bye bye JCC (and everyone else that leaves) [12:02]  Krahazik Dragon: I havn't spent much time on the Science Sim [12:02]  Penny Lane: Cyu JCC [12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: crash ? [12:02]  Snoopy Pfeffer: no I dont think so :) [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: create new note dont work [12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm [12:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer: anybody else here? [12:03] Krahazik Dragon: ooh [12:03] Arielle Popstar: need a pen and paper? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ScienceSim is cool [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its small [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i have a sim there [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: lol arielle [12:03] Andsim Hammerer: viewer crash lol [12:03] Richardus Raymaker: aha there it is [12:03]  Snoopy Pfeffer: :) [12:03]  Krahazik Dragon: is your name the same there Neb? [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and a freebie store on their main island [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: it is [12:04]  Krahazik Dragon: smae here [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I am Nebadon Izumi in SL also [12:04]  Krahazik Dragon: havn't figured out what to do over ther eyet [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: where the name was born [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:04]  Penny Lane: Not been to ScienceSim. Is it an open grid? [12:04]  Andsim Hammerer: brb [12:04]  Krahazik Dragon: oh this name was orn a long time ago [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: it is indeed an opengrid [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: no HG though [12:04]  Fue Overlord: ok, on emerald now [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: their version of OpenSiM is a bit modified [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: you can download it on their site though [12:04]  Krahazik Dragon: I think I have HG working on my sim, just havn't tested it yet [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it is the Intel Corporation grid [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: for those who dont know [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: its owned and Operated by intel [12:04] Fue Overlord: now everyone is grey [12:05] Arielle Popstar: whats the diff mainly? [12:05] Penny Lane: Is anything crystalizing on HG2 yet, at least handwavy? [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: HG 1.5 is coming [12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i think 2 requires new veiwers [12:05] Arielle Popstar: interested in that too [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: SL viewers wont work [12:06] Penny Lane: Hahaha. What's 1.5? :p [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: unmodified anyway [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: 1.5 remains SL viewer compatible [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but increases security [12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Another reason SL viewers will simply have to be dumped eventually. [12:06] Penny Lane: yEAH oTAKU [12:06] Revolution Smythe: yep