Chat log from the meeting on 2017-05-30

[11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA Proposed Working Group: Test Management [11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/05/2017-oshg-ima-proposed-working-group.html [11:06] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: i downloaded and compiled the master from last week and it worked fine [11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I diffed it with RC2 today and they now look almost identical [11:07] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: a bit laggy at times but eventually everything rezzes' [11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 3 additions and 1 removal since the RC2 was built, but that should be updated for the final version [11:08] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: what is the date of the RC2? [11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at the top of my head at least 6 weeks back [11:09] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: ok [11:09] Arielle Popstar: nods [11:10] Arielle Popstar: looks like andrew and  ubit  are  mia [11:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit is having nightmares about mono and DNS .... [11:11] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: ubit might have been working late hours [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have noticed [11:11] Arielle Popstar: heh yes  he was telling me that yesterday [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not dared to take the latest updates [11:11] Arielle Popstar: assuming that is the new mono  versions [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Mono 5 appears to run fine, but still suffers from very high mem usuage [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does master compile on 5-0? [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes [11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit has been testing on my linux box with 5 [11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: quick question what is the issue with mono and DNS? [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: glad you asked Leighton because that beats me too [11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well dns caching .. although Ubit just discovered that it may be linked to an old linux issue around resoved [11:14] Arielle Popstar: something about a lack of caching  the addresses [11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no too much caching [11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It would be good to have a case scenario to test [11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Is that the same issue raised by Shaun Emerald of Sanctuary grid [11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: disabling the resolvd service on linux seems to mitigate the issue [11:15] Arielle Popstar: he mentioned it on ops virtual yes [11:16] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thanks Arielle [11:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the addresses are being cached for too long, so if dyndns is involved you end up with a discrepancy [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: disabling resolvd will not the rest of the system lose name resolution? [11:16] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi Andrew [11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone. Sorry I'm late. I side tracked myself on something. :) [11:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not if you have your dns-servers set in your networking config [11:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: resolved is the caching dns service [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: https://askubuntu.com/questions/907246/how-to-disable-systemd-resolved-in-ubuntu [11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Has anyone run OpenSim in Docker? [11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: there were some other command line tweaks and env variables we were testing with mono on linux that seems to give some better peformance [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What is Docker? [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: most of them were posted to my mantis about high mem usage [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Docker is a light weight virtual machine of sorts [11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs a linux at the core [11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok, ty. It made me think of something else. I've used virtualbox for a VM [11:19] Basil Sosides: light Whight is Healthy [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.docker.com [11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: BTW, If I disappear unexpectedly it is likely due to the thunderstorms in my area. [11:21] SkyFlier.NorthStar @chimerus.com:8002: where are you located Andrew? [11:21] Arielle Popstar: oh thunderstorms coming? [11:22] Arielle Popstar: so docker doesnt  work  for windows? [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, yes. [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs on Linux, Windows and macOS [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, re: thunderstorms. [11:22] Arielle Popstar: (sunny and blue skies here atm) [11:22] Arielle Popstar: ok Gavin [11:23] Arielle Popstar: is it free? [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you pack an application with all it needs into a docker container, that is deployed to one of those systems [11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is free [11:26] Arielle Popstar: ok [11:26] Arielle Popstar: so Bill, does  that change for mono  fix  the issue or  why is  Ubit still having nightmares? [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I received an offline IM that a Permissions Testing Workgroup has been initiated but hasn't started work yet. [11:27] Arielle Popstar: Andrew, what about the automated testing  config   that Diva was working  on? [11:28] Arielle Popstar: any word on it? [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't heard anything recently from diva as to how the automated testing framework is progressing. [11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The WG is forming -- we have 3 members [11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA support not ready yet [11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Pls remind us what the purpose of the group is? [11:31] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am posting general plans in my blog. [11:31] Arielle Popstar: take testing load  off of the developers [11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Just a min [11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: WG: Test management Objective: support development of open source software for user-built virtual worlds. Need: testing needed to characterize bugs, evaluate alternatives, and validate betas. Who: The OpenSim community can do this. (We, the users.) Rationale: We need not and should not put the burden on the developers. Support: IMA will undertake to organize and support an OpenSim Working Group for test management. Lead: Selby Evans will undertake initial organization of this WG. Selby hopes to turn the lead over so someone more capable in the future. Objective: To design and implement a test capability to support the development and selection of open sim and related code. [11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Expected output (deliverables) A document giving the categories of tests required for the cited development Road-maps showing how to execute tests in each category Approval of these items by developers and other users of the test results Formation of a self-maintaining tester team intended to continue indefinitely. Output may change by decisions of the WG [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks Selby [11:34] Arielle Popstar: in what way will IMA  support  such an entity? [11:36] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: just a min [11:37] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: What will IMA do? Publicize tests under development and tests needed Archive and curate tests and test protocols ready for use. Archive and curate tests results. Seek to become the go-to place to find tests useful in OpenSim. [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: code tests [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: user tests [11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It will be a big help to take some of the repetetive testing load off the shoulders of the developers. [11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: performance tests [11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: will the curated and archived tests be publicly searchable [11:39] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: As needed, handle date collection for tests [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to test the code you have to work very close with the developers [11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: nods @Gavin [11:40] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: All IMA curated content will be public [11:40] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thank you @Selby [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Will these tests be "laboratory" or "Real World" tests, many things will preform well in a "perfect" environment ... If the tests do not survive contact with the end users then they become a moot point .. [11:41] Arielle Popstar: agreed Bill [11:41] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: with real human controlled avatars (not bots) [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: + much of the test needs a significant amount of kit and users to flesh out the issues [11:41] Arielle Popstar: thinking especially  for example between .8.2.1 and .9.0 [11:41] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: simulated use can be useful initially but real world use is much better data [11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: for QA tests, the coders will supply test scripts. We will only run the tests and collect data. [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Just my two cents, you cannot quantify the X factor, which is the end user, so spending too much time in the laboratory and not in the real(virtual)World, you can just end up spinning your wheels .. [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure how that takes the load off the developers? [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually you build your unit tests and make it part of the automated build procedure [11:43] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: details of operation will be TBD by the test group. To offer advice, join the test group. [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, the developers won't have to spend time running some of the tests every time code changes. [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs automatically if you set it up the right way [11:44] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I understand Diva is writing test scripts for the permissions problems. [11:45] Arielle Popstar: thing with Ubit  is that he  makes  changes  and tests   immediately to see the results [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but complex tests where you involve mutliple versions of OpenSim in a real grid running on different operating systems and with users doing unexpected things, thats what help is needed on [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Some tests of OS require many avatars to do the tests under load to see how the code holds up. Some tests are not impacted by a system load and either show something works or doesn't work as expected. [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks hears thunder (again) [11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: That thunderstorm has gotten a lot closer. [11:46] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: If the devs don't want tests we won't do them. There are comparison tests to do and problem analysis [11:46] Arielle Popstar: bottom line is that  we need  cooperations from the devs [11:47] Arielle Popstar: with some idea of expected  behaviour  on changes [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: All I'm saying there is a whole class of tests that handing over to someone else is more hassle for the developers than doing it themselves [11:47] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have an informal test going now [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, Diva was writing some automated tests that will check for object related perms testing, IIRC. [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Something Leighton and I are tossing around, is an Oar file with scripts, physics and perms testing objects in the oar, to test on TOP of the code, not as the code compiles ... Something you can just load up and have everything you need for "In-world" tests.. A little less code oriented and more end-user focused on how it actually behaves .. [11:48] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: If the devs dont want us to do tests, we won't do them [11:49] Arielle Popstar: good idea  Bill and Leighton [11:49] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: smiles @Bill [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a good idea, Bill. [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is a lot ot end user tests that can be done including viewer behavior [11:50] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: .we are plannning to have OAR with test suites [11:50] Arielle Popstar: i really like that  oar  idea  thing [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yeah and that would be the focus of what we are doing .. End users don't care about the "code" they care about their experience .. and at the end of the day that is what is going to make or break opensim .. [11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Developers are not always very good at testing end user cases as they have too intimate knowledge of the code, so they will test in different patterns and even avoid known issues [11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so a test group detached from the developers could be good in that respect [11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have that issue Gavin, I tend to accept bugs for what they are, and even avoid some without conscious thought ... [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course giving feedback both in terms of recommendations, feature requests and bug reports [11:52] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Idea is to have OARs and test scripts archived and curated for future use. [11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Quality Assessment is never done by the developers [11:53] Arielle Popstar: so the support of  IMA  is  mostly  in  handling the data output [11:54] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: And any user can do tests for their own purposes [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Developers can do basic QA but they can miss things. [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Quality assessment is also never very useful if it is done from the 1000 mile view, it needs to be at ground level, with the people that actually use the product. [11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IM support is in making the test resources available (oars, test scripts, etc, managing data collection, and archiving results. [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Having an OAR file will make it easier for others to do testing using a standard set of objects and scripts. [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you say test scripts, do you mean in-world lsl/ossl scripts? [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I did. [11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That is what I am talking about Gavin [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. Thanks for what you are doing with the workgroup. [11:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: As we know the code can be ugly and still work well for the end-user, so there needs to be someplace to meet in the middle, and without data from both sides you can end up with something that works great and people hate. . [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:03] JayR Cela: I have been helping to develop a new grid running 0.9RC2 on Ubuntu server 16.04........ [12:03] Arielle Popstar: newer mono [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (my entire grid runs on MASTER, mono 5) [12:03] JayR Cela: when we try to log into the grid with the Singularity Viewer we keep getting Packet out of Order errors ... [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what version of singularity? [12:04] JayR Cela: expected packet 10xxxx/ recieved packet 11xxxx [12:04] JayR Cela: etc... [12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cause it is getting seriously outdated in terms of functionality on master [12:04] JayR Cela: all versions of Singularity [12:04] JayR Cela: including the Alpha's [12:04] JayR Cela: and the old 32 bit version as well [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, what version of mono are you using? [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You may need to modify your sysctl.conf to optimize the networking .. by default it is really turned down in Ubuntu [12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for all practical purpose any version of Singularity is old [12:05] JayR Cela: you can Guest TP into the Grid and it works fine [12:05] JayR Cela: just a native login is when We see the Packet out of Order errors [12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: this may help some what ... https://wwwx.cs.unc.edu/~sparkst/howto/network_tuning.php [12:07] JayR Cela: thaks Bill :_) [12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ubuntu 16 networking is a little anemic by default [12:08] JayR Cela: :_) [12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: this is how I have mine set .. [12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: net.core.wmem_max=12582912 net.core.rmem_max=12582912 net.ipv4.tcp_rmem= 10240 87380 12582912 net.ipv4.tcp_wmem= 10240 87380 12582912 net.ipv4.tcp_window_scaling = 1 net.ipv4.tcp_timestamps = 1 net.ipv4.tcp_sack = 1 net.core.netdev_max_backlog = 5000 net.ipv4.tcp_keepalive_time = 3600 net.ipv4.tcp_keepalive_intvl=150 net.ipv4.tcp_retries2=90 net.ipv4.tcp_syn_retries=30 net.ipv4.tcp_tw_reuse=1 net.core.somaxconn=5000 net.ipv4.tcp_max_syn_backlog=2048 net.ipv4.udp_mem = 10240 87380 12582912 net.ipv4.udp_rmem_min = 32768 net.ipv4.udp_wmem_min = 32768 [12:09] JayR Cela: ok / thanks again Bill [12:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: No problem [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before everyone vanishes? :)