Chat log from the meeting on 2020-03-24

Todays meeting was held in Hurliman Plaza in osgrid as the Dev Outreach region was offline.

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: he seems afk at irc

[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew and all

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: This place looks familiar. Haven't seen it in a long time.

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: if you see ppl that may want to be here on friends list plz offer tp

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know how many other people will appear here.

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: The OSGrid meetings still take place here on Saturdays

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: white gavin rebake :)

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can someone offer Selby a TP?

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: don't see him online

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: He is online on KItely

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: he may try direct tp to dev outreach

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I just sent a TP to Selby

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but since I already HG-ed here my TP request don't work for him

[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: we also had meetings here before dev outreach

[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that was up in the sky somewhere?

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of the newer people may not know about this meeting location.

[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Can you IM Selby the name of this region?

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: yes but we just found that meeting is down just now

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I did.

[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I noticed it was down earlier in the week when I popped in to osgrid.

[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Welcome Hairton, you here for the Dev meeting?

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nah

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... I just noticed Kayaker is wearing a gas mask. :D

[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit a surgical

[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is Selby

[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone

[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: HI Selby

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: we just noticed outreach is down, and bill is afk :(

[11:16] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Bill has health problems.

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: yes

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: but recovering

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it worse now?

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, good

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: the corona is the worse danger for him now, like all

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed Ubit

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Spain and Italy is really bad, and the rest will follow

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: seems number of new cases in italy did flatten

[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I heard the UK has mostly gone in to lockdown.

[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I have an OpenSim question for Ubit:

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: was totally gone into lockdown

[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least for a day, but 743 new deths today there

[11:19] Kayaker Magic: On both x86 and ARM processors, the native IEEE floating point format is doubles. Using floats in a calculation causes them to run slower because they must be converted. I also know that even if you declare something a float in MySQL, it internally stores it as a double. So MySQL has to go to extra steps to convert doubles to floats on reads. So why Ubit are you converting everything to floats? It seems like you should be converting things to doubles.

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: there is no native on ieee

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: a standard can't define a native.. thats a cpu implementation thing

[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but there is a native format on the CPUs. and that is doubles.

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: no it is not

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: cpus have direct code for both doubles and floats

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: on the fpus

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: your thing mb about the old 8087

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: that one made all ops as doubles internally

[11:22] Kayaker Magic: I'm told that modern x86 CPUs have only double code and do an extra conversion step for floats.

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: that can't just be

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: the 8087 also did floats io with no penalty

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: no cpu can do that to float, since it is the most used format

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: specially on games like

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: use of doubles is more stress on caches etc etc

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: no one uses doubles unless the precision is needed

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Changing the database from doubles to floats has created an incompatibility, grids can no longer run 0.9.1 and 0.9.2 regions at the same time any more.

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: yeack not feeling that well today

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: of course you can

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: just use other table

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: or db

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what do you mean by that?

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well i have been had some less pleasent IMs with a guy that claims the be the alchemy project leader

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: he was on a meeting here as drake arconis

[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what did he say?

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: at sl uses nick Rye

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: let me look

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ...

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: 2020/03/23 13:24] Rye (sovereign.engineer): O any opensim grid that doesnt support viewer benefits just gets everything set as S32_MAX now

[2020/03/23 13:25] Ubit Umarov: if you say so

[2020/03/23 13:25] Rye (sovereign.engineer): I mean

[2020/03/23 13:25] Rye (sovereign.engineer): Me and Liru decided this for the alchemy-singularity universe.

[2020/03/23 13:25] Ubit Umarov: yr call

[2020/03/23 13:26] Ubit Umarov: other viewers made it work for current opensim

[2020/03/23 13:26] Ubit Umarov: you don't.. well as i said, your call

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ...

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: this means he says they decided that alchemy and singularity will no longer work on opensim

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure they even work on SL

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the Singu guy was going on and on about how hard it was to get it working in the last TPV meeting

[11:31] Kayaker Magic: I thought Singularity was abandonware.

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: "viewer benefits" is a new SL change.. all upload costs, how many groups one can join etc etc will be sent at login by the login service

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: that will just not work with HG.. if so

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: later on same im ( 2 days ago) he said even worse:

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ...

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: [2020/03/23 13:40] Rye (sovereign.engineer): I added a tool to alchemy :D

[2020/03/23 13:40] Rye (sovereign.engineer): only avail for opensim!

[2020/03/23 13:40] Rye (sovereign.engineer): it lets you shit garbage data into caps.

[2020/03/23 13:41] Rye (sovereign.engineer): automatedly.

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ...

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: one possible interpretation of that is that he did add a kinda of ddos tool to alchmy

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ..

[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or sim crasher

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: well i really don't understand what this people is smoking this days

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some of them seem extra bitter

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: A statement like that would make a person inclined to stay away from that viewer.

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: i did remove from out list

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and it may be banned from osgrid

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: just in case

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: singularity viewer team is the same.. so if alch is a problem so is singu

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Alchemy does not run on any of my machies any more. Just crash in a pathetic way

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: machines*

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: they are cooking a new version

[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cooking

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: well i didn't knew him.. since we started talking some weeks ago i only get bad comments about opensim

[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they ran it through tis bug checker tool while the repo was still open, and it generated an insane amount of errors and falws

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... the virus makes me make all these typos today. Hah!

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I have several viewers on my machine. Alchemy is not one of them.

[11:40] Kayaker Magic: Ditto

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well no idea why this agressive attitude to opensim

[11:40] Kayaker Magic: I have an old singularity, but it is very old.

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: but its what it is

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: But apart from that Ubit made some changes to libomv, so the latest master will run on the PI

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that was good!

[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice. :)

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Also published a new Mac viewer today with FMOD Studio replacing the old FMODEX sound libs.

[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Win version in a day or two

[11:42] Kayaker Magic: Question for Gavin: Is there any hope of getting the LSL pre-compiler in Dayturn?

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is always hope

[11:43] Kayaker Magic: lol

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Just as long as it isn't slim and none. ;)

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is on my todo list absolutely

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right now there a far too many RL distractions for comfort

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is moving slow - the viewer I mean

[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone told me about the additional script compiler features in Firestorm(?). I always forget about them. I don't know where they are or how to use them.

[11:45] Kayaker Magic: There is a Firestorm page in preferences,

[11:45] Kayaker Magic: in tab Build1 I think,

[11:45] Kayaker Magic: there is a pre-compiler option.

[11:46] Kayaker Magic: You can enter the folder path for include files on you hard drive.

[11:46] Kayaker Magic: even without that, it adds #define, #ifdef

[11:46] Kayaker Magic: and a bunch of other useful pre-compier options.

[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Ubit thinks pre-compilers are dangerous.

[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Nothing turned up in my preferences search.

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it looks like it is a pretty well contained piece of code, so probably not hard to integrate

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: they are a bad idea

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: in fact #define and #include are not part of some modern lang

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: like c#

[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or Swift

[11:50] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, but then many modern languages have request or other functions that include code and libraries from remote sources.

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and it is more garbage added to the asset

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: the source asset

[11:51] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, the pre-processor adds a ton of hidden comments at the start of every script, making them larger.

[11:52] Kayaker Magic: Doubling the size typically.

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: not good karma

[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess only a minority of scripts will use it anyway

[11:54] Kayaker Magic: But the pre-processor allowed me to build a single script that supported multiple user interfaces, multiple simulator versions (SL, IW, OpenSim).

[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Fix a bug in one version, then build for all variations.

[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: That is one use case for that sort of feature. The only other way to do it would be using something offline that can do the pre-processing so you can upload the fixed, grid specific, version.

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: While I remember, someone said Dayturn did not work on Discovery grid, so I tested it yesterday and it works fine as far as I can see

[11:57] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I was pretty sure it worked fine there.

[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but if they want to mae it to the default grid list, they have to have a DL link on their website

[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make*

[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: And just like that, our hour is up. Any last thoughts or comments before we wrap up the meeting for today?

[12:00] Kayaker Magic: Nope, I'm good for this week!

[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: good. :)

[12:00] Kayaker Magic: hehe

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I certainly hope everyone will make it through the shitstorm that happens out there in RL

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:01] Kayaker Magic: More people are showing up in OpenSim worlds to get their social fixes!

[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to head out for a walk as soon as I finish an email. I haven't been out in about 3 days.

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: I should do that also!

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: remember to keep 2 meter distance to other folks

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: The last time I went out I photographed the sign at a gas station showing the incredibly low price of gas.

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Tonight I hear it may drop another 8 cents a liter.

[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which made our currency tank completely

[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: price of $ went up 30% last week

[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: My dollar value has tanked. It has me holding off buying stuff from outside the country.

[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Euro not quite as much but a significant jump uo there too

[12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am thankful for virtual worlds -- bye all

[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby.

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Selby

[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Bye all!

[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hope everyone stays safe at home.

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Kayaker

[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: That marks the end of another gathering. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: next week

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I say that but by the time I do several people have already left. :)

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: stay safe and healthy everone