Chat log from the meeting on 2009-09-15

[10:10] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[10:10] Connected

[10:10] Adam Frisby: LL's talking about megaregions?

[10:10] Adam Frisby is Online

[10:10] Penny Lane: Yep

[10:10] Kitto Flora: I got a Tako sort-of working last nite, except for the obvious missing stuff and some tuning it sorks fairly well 'out of the box' so far

[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: heh

[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: haha

[10:10] Penny Lane: It's got them panicked

[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: LL have noticed?

[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: awesome Kitto

[10:10] Richardus Raymaker: LL & megaregions. must be be withg megaprices to

[10:10] Bri Hasp: yep they are in panic mode over in San Fran

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: sorry im late

[10:10] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Neb

[10:10] Adam Frisby: I know LL were browsing around the simhost website yesterday, I lol'd.

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: my 22 inch monitor is dieing

[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: oh crap

[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i had to smack it around to get it to turn on

[10:11] Adam Frisby: I tried doing a customer service chat with them, and they rejected it. :(

[10:11] Richardus Raymaker: LL (hehe) dont understand the are to high in price

[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: In what way?

[10:11] Penny Lane: JCC: yep, they've taken Latif's megaregion setup to test

[10:11] Penny Lane: Funny as hell.

[10:11] Dahlia Trimble: LL took Latif's?

[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: who is Latif?

[10:11] Kitto Flora: Heehee - LL gets the double-whammy?? OS has super-regions AND vehicles?

[10:11] Snoopy Pfeffer: I did also hear that LL sees us more and more as a competition

[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats funny Adam

[10:11] Bri Hasp: I had 2 Lindens sailing on my Sea

[10:11] Penny Lane: It's great. LL are chasing Opensim tail lights

[10:11] Snoopy Pfeffer: one reason seems to be that we even support Vivox voice

[10:12] Adam Frisby: Kitto has been doing some impressive work on Vehicles I hear.

[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I'd rather they saw us as supporters rather than competitors, lift the boats for everyone

[10:12] Adam Frisby: Justin: it's quite possible if they ever finished the interop work

[10:12] Hiro Protagonist: I actually have it upmerged with this mornings trunk and up on github kitto :D

[10:12] Bri Hasp: I am cordial Adam

[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it looks like slow going

[10:12] Adam Frisby: There'd be a lot of room for LL to make a buck in the 'hypergrid', through currency & exchange services, content marketplaces, etc.

[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: I think the Lindens are their own worst enemies

[10:12] Adam Frisby: although their hosting prices would probably be forced into more competitive rates

[10:12] Penny Lane: JCC: neither supporters nor competition. Opensim is doing something much more important: leading the development of VWs.

[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: competition is always good

[10:13] Kitto Flora: Hiro: Great! You will have to show me how to upgrade Sea-3

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think the reason SL is the way it is

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: no competition for long time

[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: to spur them into inovation

[10:13] Penny Lane: Neb++

[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: there certainly is a lot of experimentation here - we're freer than LL in that respect

[10:13] Hiro Protagonist: will do Kitto - btw, I tested it on my mega region this morning, and it was not so good as on a 'normal' region

[10:13] Penny Lane: Yep

[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: we don't need permission to innovate

[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: we may want to set up a mega for your to work with

[10:14] Bri Hasp: we can do that easy Hiro

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: im ready to test Kittos stuff on Arizona Bay when its ready

[10:14] Adam Frisby: Btw guys - we are going to need to do a protocol bump on friday

[10:14] Kitto Flora: What was not so good, Hiro?

[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: but progres is tremendous nonetheless :D

[10:14] Penny Lane: And not constrained by the past either. LL are imprisoned by their content creators.

[10:14] Bri Hasp: I dunno how much Linux can handle

[10:14] Adam Frisby: I know everyone hates those bumps, but we gotta do it for some inventory related issues.

[10:14] Kitto Flora: Nebadon: Grab it off Hiro's git

[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: I think the mega confused the steering somehow, and there was some vehicle tumbling

[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok i will

[10:14] Adam Frisby: (specifically you lot killing our inventory server)

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: we have a ton of people who have not upgraded sims in long time

[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, we're free to upset people

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: and its causing massive spew and occasional crash on inventory server

[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: oldest i have seen is 10108

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt those regions cant even access their inventory anymore

[10:15] Bri Hasp: Kito can test on my Net Super Sim next door

[10:15] Penny Lane: JCC: hahah :P

[10:15] paulie Flomar: We're free to upset people. YOu have to PAY LL to upset people. lol.

[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:15] Penny Lane: Lucky I wasn't drinking coffee there, the keyboard would have suffered

[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: :D

[10:16] Nas Messing is Online

[10:16] paulie Flomar: zing :)

[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i tell you one thing though

[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: Bri you should probably pull the merged code for the work from my git site

[10:16] Adam Frisby: Speaking of mandatory updates

[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: prolly be easier though to reconfig his

[10:16] Adam Frisby: now we've got 'revisions' back

[10:16] Adam Frisby: could a dev who has some free time, please, please, please implement a 'min/max version allowed for connect' option pair into the grid server?

[10:17] Adam Frisby: It'd be a lot easier if we could say 'revisions from 10,000+ are fine' rather than == NetworkInterface version.

[10:17] Bri Hasp: give me the link or files

[10:17] Adam Frisby: therefor we can range some of these transitions better.

[10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: In mainline OpenSim I think that's a bad idea, since it looks people to our source control system

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: also make it so we cant start dup region names

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to fix this

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: once and for all

[10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: Of course, anyone is free to do what they like in a spearate module

[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: dupe*

[10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry looks = locks

[10:17] Adam Frisby: Justin: I'm not particularly caring about 'how' we do it - but the NetworkInterface must == versus > X && < Y is a problem

[10:17] Hiro Protagonist: Bri here's the url for the git repo: git://github.com/JamesStallings/opensim.git

[10:18] Hiro Protagonist: the branch is KittoFloraODE

[10:18] Adam Frisby: It would be nice if we enforced a minimum network interface version (and optionally a maximum), but not a specific one.

[10:18] Adam Frisby: Then we can update it more regularly wihout so much pain

[10:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.6 (Dev) git# efc43aa 2009-09-13 18:24:00 +0100 (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:True

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: nice

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: certainly the very thing could be improved, but I don't like typing it in to git 'revisions'

[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya be good to have a window of sorts

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry very thing == interface version

[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: my head isn't the best today

[10:19] Baba Sucks: I agree.. git revisions are not the right thing to tie this to

[10:19] Bri Hasp: overserved Justin?

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: we dont do we?

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: we have a protocol revision

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: we have to code in

[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yeah :)

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the revision just tells you where the break is

[10:19] Hiro Protagonist: conditionals other than '==' against the protocol version sound like a good idea though

[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: its not the determining factor for protocol

[10:20] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the single protocol version was the simplest possible thing that could possibly work

[10:20] Bri Hasp: 10713 was bad for me earlier.. reverted to 10707

[10:21] Hiro Protagonist: I running head/master from that same repo right now with no issues

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: if there's a case for making that a range then cool. Or if osgrid wants to implement its own module to enforce OpenSim revisions then that's cool too, though I don't think such a thing should be in core OpenSim

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: me to Hiro

[10:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: Hiro the current git head?

[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly we could provide more ifnormation than just the network version when regions attempt to connect to the grid service

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: welll couldnt the ragne just be based on the protocol revison

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: say v 2 / 3 are allowed

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: but 1 is not?

[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: something like that?

[10:22] Hiro Protagonist: more or less - it's master from the github repo I made earlier this morning when I got kitto's changed into the fork and pushed it

[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: sure - though I would like to see a good use case before we start making things more complicated

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: makes sense

[10:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: thanks HIro, I will upgrade to that after this meeting

[10:22] Hiro Protagonist: kitto's stuff is in the branch I gave earlier on that same repo

[10:23] Bri Hasp: acted like a race situation for me.. red text on grid comm.. took 25 starts to even run

[10:23] Bri Hasp: then was cloud Av

[10:23] Salima Barzane is Online

[10:24] Bri Hasp: reverted all was normal

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: that is odd

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: this was linux or windows box?

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive only tested in windows

[10:24] Bri Hasp: I ONLY run Net these days

[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: hmm interesting

[10:25] Penny Lane: Headsup on IBM committing their Agent Domain finally, early version with code on github. http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/ogp/ -- nothing of much interest to anyone outside OGP though. Apparently they've hacked Opensim regions to do some kind of asset reflection.

[10:25] Richardus Raymaker: need to test more linux nebadon :)

[10:25] Bri Hasp: and a hot server hosted in CA

[10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: is that new work or just the original code they had way back?

[10:25] Penny Lane: JCC: the first time their internal code sees light of day

[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I imaigine that stuff is pretty much dead right now waiting for VWRAP to start proper?

[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: ping

[10:27] Penny Lane: Heh, I don't want to get into that. Let's just say it's typical LL ...

[10:27] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol

[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I lurk on the ml - always interesting discussions but I don;t have the time to get involved, unfortunately :)

[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: (or always the will ;)

[10:27] Chris D is Online

[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: so anybody want to talk about any other OpenSim issues, or lynch me, or anything liek that? :)

[10:28] Penny Lane: Personally I don't think it matters at all, because you guys are leaving them miles behind. But gives me something to do :P

[10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we can do a lot of experimentation, but I suspect getting everything shipshape to a point where people could really rely on it is much more of a challenge

[10:29] Baba Sucks: That IAR stuff is really great.. It exposes so many flaws

[10:29] Teravus Ousley is Online

[10:29] Bri Hasp: is terrain load-tile ok? I had problems but was ok last year

[10:29] Snoopy Pfeffer: true Justin, the goal should be an opensim 1.0 package, maybe end of this year

[10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[10:29] Bri Hasp: handy for ther new Super Sims

[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: snoopy: I would personally be pessimistic about that, but that's just my opinion

[10:30] Snoopy Pfeffer: much experimentation is cool, but can cause loosing focus

[10:30] Ideia Boa: hey all

[10:30] Dahlia Trimble: 1.0 in 3 months? dont think it's going to happen

[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: baba: yeah, can't hide through obscurity forever

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: Bri did you see my notes yesterday on load tile

[10:30] Snoopy Pfeffer: :)

[10:30] Baba Sucks: I want to put native super region support into the viewer still ;0

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: load tile changed from 1 year ago

[10:30] Bri Hasp: yep Neb

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: you no longer put meters

[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: you put # of regions

[10:30] Chris D is Online

[10:30] Bri Hasp: tiles

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: that didnt work either?

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: heh i think we just GCd

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: could we also implement something like the opposite of mega regions??

[10:31] Bri Hasp: only with an f32 format Neb

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: I mean 4 servers handling 1 region?

[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: picoregions?

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: to be able to handle many avatars

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi Teravus

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ok thats Adam land we need to tlak to him

[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: i guess he crash?

[10:31] Snoopy Pfeffer: right topic, now lol

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: i was on phone

[10:32] Baba Sucks: snoopy, you would have to find a way to break up the work or have the servers run a virtual machine

[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: came back he is gone

[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: snoppy: Yeah, you might want to suggest that to Ter - might not be too hard now :)

[10:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes Justin

[10:32] Kitto Flora: The people working on megaregions: Can we have 'vector osGetRegionSize' ?

[10:32] Teravus Ousley: Snoopy: I don't think that it's reasonable to do that in a way that the linden client will like without something like the load balancer

[10:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe the same code can nearly do that already

[10:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes

[10:32] Bri Hasp: thats would be handy Kitto

[10:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: well the outside interface looks like on region

[10:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: but inside are 4 regions

[10:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: one*

[10:33] Penny Lane: Hiya Tera --- mega gratz on the megaregion hack, t'is wonderful :-))

[10:33] Bri Hasp: keep from crashing off world

[10:33] Teravus Ousley: In truth, it can be done already in units of 4, but the Linden client will not see it as a smaller region

[10:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh ok

[10:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: can we not make the viewer believe that it is one region?

[10:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: while 4 servers handle the traffic?

[10:34] Teravus Ousley: Did I mention the load balancer?

[10:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm yes

[10:34] Kitto Flora: Snoopy: the problem is the physics engine.

[10:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: do we have that already??

[10:34] Teravus Ousley: No, the problem is the Linden client

[10:34] Teravus Ousley: not the physics engine.

[10:34] Dahlia Trimble: I think the load balancer can make it work in 4 cores (last I checked)

[10:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: and we cannot make the client believe it is just 1 server?

[10:35] Teravus Ousley: Again, I mention the load balancer! :)

[10:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: ok :)

[10:35] Dahlia Trimble: I think it's on forge somewhere

[10:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: I will look for it

[10:35] Kitto Flora: The problem with running multiple server machines supporting a Region(whatever its size) is that there must be one Physics Engine for the whole region, and it must runon one server machine.

[10:36] Dahlia Trimble: dunno if it ever made it into core

[10:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: some guys working on business regions might need it

[10:36] Penny Lane: In principle, SL-compatible hacks to the client that allow megaregions to improve should be possible to commit to Snowglobe. IBM would probably support that for their commercial product, now that everyone wants megaregions.

[10:36] Richardus Raymaker: write bigger teravus. :)

[10:36] Penny Lane: Bingo,Snoopy

[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the load balancer was in core but got moved into a forge module, on the last attempt to slim down the core

[10:36] Bri Hasp: I am thrilled with my SuperSim, mega regions a few trivial prim and texture issues but all can workaround

[10:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: hm I will ask some friends from IBM

[10:38] Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat

[10:45] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[10:45] Connected

[10:45] Hiro Protagonist: 0.2.2 crashes my region

[10:45] Bri Hasp: since new version

[10:45] Michelle Argus is Online

[10:45] Baba Sucks: Hiro, crashes it?

[10:45] Baba Sucks: do you know what is causing that?

[10:45] Hiro Protagonist: no idea Baba

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: sorry guys

[10:45] Hiro Protagonist: it doesnt even toss an exception

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: that crash was my fault

[10:46] Bri Hasp: same here.. get 'just in time' errors

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: i let the log file grow to 4gb

[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: and log4net threw a fit

[10:46] Hiro Protagonist: just stack trace outta no where

[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: i crashed my region because a telkeport failed last time

[10:46] Baba Sucks: neb, you should break up the log more often

[10:47] Baba Sucks: hiro, send me the stack trace ;0

[10:47] Hiro Protagonist: ok, I have to repro

[10:47] Bri Hasp: we better not crash again I bet once

[10:47] Hiro Protagonist: it is on a mega region, that could have something to do with it

[10:48] Baba Sucks: in any case nothing the viewer does should crash the sim

[10:48] Baba Sucks: but if we can avoid it we should

[10:49] Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat