Chat log from the meeting on 2010-10-05

[18:01] Teleport completed from http://slurl.com/secondlife/Zaius%20Plaza/208/175/26

[18:01] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[18:01] Richardus Raymaker has entered chat range (13.9m)

[18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hello Richard

[18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hi Neb

[18:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi neb. if wright plaza where not down i could fly from my home to here. i want a chopper !

[18:02] Richardus Raymaker: ok, verhicles dont work good.

[18:03] Richardus Raymaker: but just good signb that i can fly to here

[18:04] Dave Coyle is Online

[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: scripts cant cross borders

[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: you cant drive vehicles over borders

[18:05] Justin Clark-Casey is Online

[18:05] Richardus Raymaker: yes. so for now i play for plane myself :)

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: even worse, physics cant be passed over borders either

[18:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi dave

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: quite alot to work out still for border crossing vehicles

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello dave

[18:06] Dave Coyle: hi

[18:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi Justin

[18:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus, hi folks

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: hey there justin

[18:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin

[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: heh i just did a sqlite migration from 0.6.9 to 0.7 using sqlite

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: sorry using Wright Plaza

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: man talk about excruciating

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite is soooo horible

[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah

[18:07] Richardus Raymaker: dont tell me

[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it's horrible when one tries to shove vast amounts of data through it

[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: it's very good for lots of other things

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: on sim startup it sat for 6.5 mintutes looking like it was frozen

[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: i restarted sim several times thinking it was not working

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: finally i just let it go

[18:08] Richardus Raymaker: i wish we would have 1 ini file for all database settings and conenction strings. makes life more easy

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: it took 9 minutes and 14 seconds just to get to [Startup Complete]

[18:08] Richardus Raymaker: excluding scripts ?

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes excluding scripts

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: scripts are still starting

[18:08] Justin Clark-Casey: But Wright Plaza isn't on sqlite, right? Or are you talking about a different instance?

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: probably take about 30+ minutes for sim to startt

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: im using it as a test

[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: testing all possibilites for migration issues to 0.7

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: i figured go extreme

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: make sure even the worst sims can be migrated

[18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: *all* of them? YOu going to try MSSQL too, nebadon? ;-)

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: mssql doesnt work in 0.7 does it?

[18:09] Richardus Raymaker: lol

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt think it did

[18:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it doesn't?

[18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: no idea. I don't use MSSQL.

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone made it work?

[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: usually Strawberry does that

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: and shes just getting on 0.6.9 recently

[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: the RG people are still on 0.6.9 I should think

[18:10] Richardus Raymaker: mssql dort work under linxu sofar i know :p

[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: that's hardly surprising :)

[18:10] BlueWall Slade: Reaction Grid haven't been on 0.6.9 too very long

[18:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that would stop me from using it.

[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: RG are very conservative - they won't upgrade now for a v long time

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not sure but i dont think anyones done the MSSQL migration routine for 0.7 yet

[18:10] BlueWall Slade: and it seems they have become infactuated with the Unity3d stuff

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: the only person i know who works on it is Strawberry

[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: and unfortuantly i havent used MSSQL in like 10 years

[18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: there were some other people once - but nothing for a long time

[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt even know how to set it up anymore

[18:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny

[18:11] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-)

[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: anyway minus todays sqlite annoynances, the move to 0.7 testing is going well

[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: the MYSQL migration was perfect

[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: nice - you guys sorted out the problems with osprofile?

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: Dave migrated all the users/inventory stuff to our 0.7 test grid

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: from the main grid

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: osprofile dont work

[18:12] Andrew Hellershanks: oh? No more issues moving large amounts of stuff to 07? That will be good

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no ones touched it for 0.7 yet

[18:12] Richardus Raymaker: OAR's from 0.6.9 -> 0.7.x are no problem ?

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya no prolem there Richardus

[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so I presume that would block any actual migration?

[18:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, osprofile will be working soon.

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no

[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: we decded to move forward without profiles

[18:13] BlueWall Slade: for what it's worth - the things in OMW work that dont' work in the forge one

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: it will have to get fixed after likely

[18:13] Richardus Raymaker: not sure what the best way is. i hope use the existing mysql works fine.

[18:13] Dave Coyle: we'll keep the profile data, but it won't work on day 1

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: unless someone works it out in the next week or two

[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: k - command decision from the osgrid council? :)

[18:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm about to commit the change to fix profile picks. That leaves just classifieds. Once those are done, I'll forward port to 07

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: great Andrew

[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: nice going

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: anyting i can do to help test let me know

[18:13] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, ty

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: if it works before we migrate we'll certainly do it asap

[18:13] Richardus Raymaker: not the basic profile data we have now ?

[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: but if not were still moving forward

[18:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I'm working on the osprofile module to make all the tabs in the profile dialog of a viewer operational

[18:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I have just classifieds left to work on.

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the topic of Sqlite again justin

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: am i correct to say mono 2.4.x uses legacy

[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: and 2.6.x uses new sqite driver?

[18:15] Richardus Raymaker: oh classifieds we can mis

[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: no one in opensim-dev could remember

[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.4 can use legacy or new. 2.6 can only use new

[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: ok 2.4 failed on new for me

[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: but when i went back to legacy it worked fine

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: odd - I'm using it fine with 2.4 on new

[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: just took 10 years

[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: let me pastebin the errors i got

[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm interested in making Teravus' managed sqlite the main driver after 0.7.1

[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: that would resolve our problems with mac as well, if everything works okay

[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/huY83MWD

[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats the error i got on new sqlite driver with 2.4 mono

[18:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yeah, classifieds aren't too important. They more or less work at the moment. I'm seeing an exception being triggered so its mainly cleaning up that.

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: doh

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: wrong pastebin

[18:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I was just going to say :)

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/6FPm8UYg

[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry about that

[18:17] Richardus Raymaker: as lonbg opensim dont crahs, no problem

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: but on legacy this error did not occur

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if it was fatal

[18:18] paulie Flomar is Offline

[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: but it was scary enough for me to stop it and start over on legacy driver

[18:18] paulie Flomar is Online

[18:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, you didn't previously somehow create estate tables?

[18:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ahmmmmm

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: no

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: it was a brand new database i made last night on osgrid

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: i loaded the Wright Plaza oar into a new sqlite based region

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: in this grid

[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: then moved it to danger

[18:20] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is that the legacy sqlite isn't being properly updated for the latest db changes

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that the migrations had already been done before you stopped it which allow legacy to keep working

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: urf, this is a pita

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh well apparantly the new driver isnt working either though

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: nope

[18:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I was saying to nebadon that it didn't look right to me that all those create table statements were inside a transaction.

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: i deleted that db

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: and copied in the 0.6.9 db again

[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: you're using master?

[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm quite surprised legacy is working at all there

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt reuse the same OpenSim.db either after the initial migration failed

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i just logged in

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: seems to be working

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but i dunno

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: maybe somethings not right

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but ya i freakin hate sqlite

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: id needs to just die

[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: you might get some failures on things like media manipulation

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok

[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm

[18:23] Andrew Hellershanks: SQLite has its uses.

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: well like i said the new driver seemed to fail too

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno

[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ngggff

[18:23] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but how to find a replacement for noobs. thats not sqlite ?

[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: is mysql really that hard to set up, really? :)

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: someone else on opensim-dev mentioned it failed for them also

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: well some people do struggle

[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: installing mysql is easy

[18:23] Quilzie Xemax: It's not hard... it's just people stick to something if it works for them anyway

[18:24] Quilzie Xemax: Well, "works"

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: setting up the user account is where people seem to flounder

[18:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, its not hard. You just have to get all the connection strings set up properly

[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, then there are big problems when someone imports a big oar

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya think

[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: it takes an age to do that into sqlite, though part of it is big inefficiencies in the import process too

[18:24] Richardus Raymaker: ik know nebadon. under linux its easy. under winows its getting a bigger problem especialy 64bit did not work good with xammp or lamp

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: it took 8.5 hours for the WP oar to load into the sqlite region

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats absurd

[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: the db is 28mb

[18:25] Andrew Hellershanks: There are install packages for MySQL for Windows which make it fairly painless to setup

[18:25] Richardus Raymaker: and wright plaza only have 17K prims

[18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes

[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya Xampp is good

[18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so you tried the non-legacy adapter with no existing db whatsoever and that failed?

[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: apache did not worked with 64bit i think. long time ago

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: mysql is probably huge overkill for people that just want a private standaolone region

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: no justin

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i only am testing migrations

[18:26] BlueWall Slade: or simple regions in grid

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: from 0.6.9 to 0.7

[18:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that shouldn't be an issue any more

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i could give a crap about anything else

[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: ok.

[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just wanted to make sure our migration goes smoothly

[18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: could you try again but ignoring the errors this time? The ones I see are just for duplicate columns anyway

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok sure can

[18:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that it might work anyway

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: what should i test sepcificly you think?

[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure its actually working

[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: obscure music on parcel media would be a gfood setting to try

[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, actually the simplest one would be media on a prim

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: ok

[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: i'll start that now

[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: this should fail to work with the legacy adapter

[18:29] Justin Clark-Casey: man, this is going to be a pita

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya tell me about it

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:29] Quilzie Xemax: Migrations are always joyous happy fun times

[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite was supposed to make things easier for everyone

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: so far its uber fail in that regard

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I wouldn't say so. sqlite just makes it easier to get an initial system up and running

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:30] Justin Clark-Casey: but it comes back and bites you in the arse in various ways

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly not made things easier for devs

[18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we had a debate a while ago about stopping it being the default but there were big complaints about changing it

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: but i think our database functionality in general needs a shit load of lovin

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: it shouldnt take 2.5 hours to load Wright Plaza into mysql either

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: or 8.5 hours into sqlite

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: for a 28mb database

[18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.5 to migrate or load an oar?

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: to load oar

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: the migrate took seconds

[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: in mysql

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: but for some reason

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: the datastore on OAR loading

[18:32] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there are big inefficiencies there..... Loading could be vastly better though that means change the db adapters

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: takes years

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its not the asset upload either

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: asset upload goes fast

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its the write to database takes hours

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: literally over 2 hours for 28mb of data

[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: in MySQL

[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's done in a very naive way

[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: it has to be improved

[18:33] Penny Lane: Pen and ink?

[18:33] Nebadon Izumi: heh

[18:33] BlueWall Slade: chisle and stone?

[18:33] Richardus Raymaker: typewriter penny

[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: one at a time :)

[18:33] Penny Lane: BlueWall -- ah, strong persistence, good thinking :-)

[18:34] BlueWall Slade: assets: you can checkin any time you like. But, you can't ever leave.

[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I thin kthe chief problem is that once the oar is loaded, storage of the objects is done in the usual opensim way (i.e. one at t eim)

[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you've got thousands of objects this takes an absolute age

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: ok region is migrating on new sqlite driver

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: we'll know in about 10 minutes

[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: actually it wont be safe to login for about 30 minutes

[18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: migration is just a db operation - it doesn't flow through the opensim code itself....

[18:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If you just loaded an oar, why does it still do the saving prims to the db. It should already have them there from the load

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i dont get it must be doing it serialy

[18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the load just places them in the region. Saving to the db is carried out by the usual opensim persistence process

[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: 1 prim at a time

[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the same mechanism as when you just create a prim in-world - it doesn't actually get stored to the database until some time afterwards

[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it isn't going to be an easy thing to address...

[18:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, oh. That explains the comment yesterday about having to wait for the process (or backup command) to complete before doing a region shutdown

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: right

[18:38] Justin Clark-Casey: yes

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: when you load an oar it will appear to be done in minutes

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it can literally take hours for the datastore to complete

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: and there is no indicator its actually happening

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: or that its done

[18:38] BlueWall Slade: what if you force it on the command line?

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: other than peer into the database

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you force it it will lock up the console until its done

[18:38] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. When I was loading up 9 oars, I was seeings lots of messages on the console about saving to db

[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it could also feel like its not working and just frozen

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you really need to know ahead of time what to expect

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: or your going to kill the sim likely

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: in sqlite though your pretty screwed

[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you cant open a db that opensim is using and check tables

[18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: persistence could be forced at the time of save, which at least would allow a warning to immediately preceed it

[18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, at the time of load

[18:39] Richardus Raymaker: yup. mysql delete database and start over. if you only have 1 region

[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: any other news about 0.7.x ?

[18:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ya lots of room for improvement to databases

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: right now im more worried about getting to 0.7 though

[18:41] Richardus Raymaker: still get some earplugs in range :)

[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: as long as these errors are not fatal thats the important thing

[18:41] Dave Coyle: sqlite migrations is pretty much it for things holding osgrid back from 0.7

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: what threw me totally off kilter was it takes literally 9+ minutes to get to startup complete

[18:42] Richardus Raymaker: as long people make oar's it can go fine. people that try to upgrade oar. gives noise.

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: it looked like the sim was frozen and not doing anything

[18:42] Dave Coyle: as we said, profiles is going to have to wait until right after the switch

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: now i know it just takes forever i can move forward

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully sqlite really isnt even a problem

[18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: well, upgrading db's directly isn't so bad. Loading oars is a problem though this isn't a new one

[18:42] Richardus Raymaker: better put that as warning (h1) on the migration page

[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it finishes

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: i really dont care if it takes 10 hours

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it eventually does finish

[18:43] Richardus Raymaker: so someone with sqlite and many regions is busy for 1 week.

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: it certainly would be nice if it took 15 minutes instead of 8 hours

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: but we can worry about that later

[18:43] Richardus Raymaker: some progress message wopuld be fine.

[18:43] Dave Coyle: richardus: someone with many regions probably isn't using sqlite

[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya you would think

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect a large portion of this grid is using sqlite

[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: i know someone the do and did. i hope she switched to mysql

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: i know like Greybeard is

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: he seems unable to get mysql working

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: even with help

[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: windows nebadon ?

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: hes tried to switch but has a very hard time

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: as long xampp works and apace and phpmyadmin it must work

[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: someone who is not very computer savy to begin with i can see mysql being a struggle for sure

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: well his problem

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi whispers: was he is leasing a Windows VPS

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: that had IIS and MSSQL

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: when he tried to install XAMPP he got all kinds of port conflicts

[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it ruined his day

[18:45] Richardus Raymaker: that makes things harder

[18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how many region service providers are there on osgrid?

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: unique servers?

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: http://osgrid.org/stats/detail.php?graph=13&tree=&filter=

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: this says we have about 900 servers connected

[18:46] Andrew Hellershanks: He should have been able to shutdown IIS and MSSQL services somehow

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: but its probably more

[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: i think this stat uses Unique IP's

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: not neccesarily unique servers

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: so somewhere between 900-1500 is probably a good estimate

[18:47] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia

[18:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia

[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I mean, ppl providing regions for other ppl

[18:47] Dave Coyle: no way to know

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: oh

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya hard to say

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: if i had to guess

[18:47] Richardus Raymaker: the drop half jun ? where the grid cleanup ?

[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: maybe 1 dozen

[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just curious as to how many individuals are going to be attempting this migration

[18:48] Andrew Hellershanks: bit sudden drop in servers about latter part of June

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: a lot

[18:48] Dave Coyle: hundreds

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: i thin its probably safe to say 90% plus of the grid

[18:48] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, im for a while busy with the migration 2 servers + 1 from someone else

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: wil be migrating their own servers

[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: gonna be fun then

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: ive been having nightmares

[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: you're going to head straight to a version off master rather than something like 0.7.0.2?

[18:49] Dave Coyle: that's why we get paid the big bucks! oh, wait....

[18:49] Richardus Raymaker: and the worse thing. you need to wait with testing till end of the week right ?

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: lol

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think so Justin

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: were gonna head right for 0.7.1 (dev)

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: seems riskier

[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be migrating to 07 by the end of the year (maybe). I have a few things to do before I'll be ready to migrate

[18:49] Friendly Harbour: i know i shut down some test servers b4 the summer ... only 2-3 ip's but 10+ regions .. think i will ready the wiki carefully b4 starting them up again if there are mayor changes coming

[18:49] Friendly Harbour: read*

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: mysql migrated fine on the new mysql driver

[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza that is

[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: God to know

[18:49] Dahlia Trimble: 0.7.1 for osgrid?

[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's a good point - the mysql driver has random failures when migrating

[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: achh.. Good to know

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: all of our current testing is on 0.7.1

[18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie refuses to allow the mysql driver to be reverted in master.

[18:50] Dave Coyle: dahlia: yes

[18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: the one in 0.7.0.2 is the old one that works ok

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: honestly the stable releases are no more stable than master

[18:50] Dahlia Trimble: nice. when?

[18:50] Richardus Raymaker: im already useing 0.7 as standalone hypergrid. so know some things

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: i find the releases to be less stable

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: in most cases

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:50] Friendly Harbour: lol

[18:50] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)

[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: i never run them

[18:50] Dave Coyle: dahlia: don't have a date yet. just have to make sure sqlite migrations are working.

[18:50] paulie Flomar is Online

[18:50] Richardus Raymaker: how's the scripting problem nebadon. last week it did not work well

[18:50] Dave Coyle: hopefully this month

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: no scripting problems i am aware of Richardus

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: can you be more specific?

[18:51] Richardus Raymaker: ok. last week things did not work for you

[18:51] Dahlia Trimble: what about services migration? will there be a period when both newer and older versions will still work?

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya right now i think were good

[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: on master

[18:51] Richardus Raymaker: 0.7.1 version head

[18:51] Dave Coyle: dahlia: no

[18:51] Lalinda Perhaps is Offline

[18:51] Dave Coyle: it'll be switched all at once

[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: tbh, part of the reason why we have these difficulties is becuase you guys have been on 0.6.9 for so long :)

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: blame the modules

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: not me

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:52] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)

[18:52] Richardus Raymaker: i hope the download serve ris ready for the big run.

[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: if you'd been updating ppl would have faced the prressure to make master work properly :)

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: master works pretty good now

[18:52] Dave Coyle: that's why we don't want to wait anymore

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: the problem was no modules worked

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt we didnt want to upgrade

[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: we just couldnt

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I know - that was partly why I fixed the osgroups stuff

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: i wish we could have updated months ago

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: its one thing for a few modules to not work

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: but when non did that would have just upset everyone

[18:53] Richardus Raymaker: somewhere you need to upgarde. or you can delay it until V1.0

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: and tehre is not enough people to fix them fast enough to calm everyone down

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: but ya were close

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it shows there isn't that much manpower about - those modules languishged for ages

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: no turning back now

[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nice to hear - but don't take too many risks, please :)

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: well osgrid has always run master

[18:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I would have looked at the groups one sooner but I was in the middle of ossearch at the time

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: we have never ever ran so called "stable" releases

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: like i said i have never found the opensim releases to work better than master

[18:54] Dahlia Trimble: I have personal modules on some of my regions that (fortunately) I've just ported to post 0.7. There may be other people who arent quite as ready :(

[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: they are usually missing important things we need

[18:55] Richardus Raymaker: the only reason i use osgrid realease. is to avpoid the git troubles. until i made my own manual

[18:55] Andrew Hellershanks: The one difference with the releases, all the issues and bugs are known

[18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm surprised - I spent ages on 0.6.9 :p

[18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: but I know what you mean, it's all very alpha

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya the releases tend to go weeks without hot fixes we need

[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont want to maintain our own branch

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: i already dont have enough time as it is

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: heh

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we get things like really nasty security holes

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: that are only available on master

[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: they need to go out to our users immediatly

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: the fix is only available in master that is

[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: and even though we stayed on 0.6.9 forever

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: i really pestered the hell out of you guys to back port stuff to post-fixes

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: melanie probably said 50 times no more patches

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: only for me to pester her into more

[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[18:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[18:58] Friendly Harbour: :)

[18:58] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

[18:58] Richardus Raymaker: i wish the disapeared sims after restart are fixt. crossing fingers

[18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there's not enough of us to maintain these things properly

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think once we move to 0.7 though alot of others will too

[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to confess, I myself was only able to update 0.6.9 because I needed it for a project

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: and that should make things easier for everyone

[18:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Once I get done with osprofile stuff, the next thing I want to do is to start looking at some of the prim linking issues.

[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I think thre might be a lot of problems, but it has to be tackled sometime

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: Reacton grid tends to wait for OSgrid

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: as do other grids

[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you're a brave man, but that would be really cool

[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd Rock grid too

[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: they generally wait for us to prove a version is worthy

[19:00] Dahlia Trimble: ReactionGrid is the only grid I'm aware of that runs the core distribution

[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah. I suppose I am. I'm just going after things I want to see working properly and I figure they are isolated enough that I have a change to fix them.

[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd rock does too

[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: change->chance

[19:00] Dahlia Trimble: besides OSGrid of course ;)

[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: Science sim does for their regions

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: If you want any code guidance pls don't hestitate to ask.

[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: but their backend is simiangrid

[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: there are some unit tests for linking which might help get a handle on the code

[19:01] Dahlia Trimble: I thought ScienceSim had their own fork

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: when i spoke to Mic last

[19:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Particles are another thing I'd like to see working properly but I think that might be more difficult and is not as high a priority right now

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: he said Sciencesim has like 6 or so patches that are not in core

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: they used to Dahlia

[19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: no, sciencesim are now almost completely running stock

[19:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I haven't hesitated so far

[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: but since they moved to simiangrid they are on stock opensim regions now

[19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: cool :)

[19:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to get back to work. You're thinking of doing the migration within a month?

[19:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin

[19:02] Andrew Hellershanks: cya, justin

[19:02] Dave Coyle: yes

[19:02] Nebadon Izumi: ok justin, thanks for coming

[19:02] Dahlia Trimble: bye JCC :)

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: that is really good to hear - I think it would benefit dvelopment a lot. Good luck!

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves

[19:03] paulie Flomar: :)

[19:03] Dave Coyle: bye

[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: so anyone else have any questions before we wrap things up?

[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline

[19:04] paulie Flomar: doh. I missed the boat.

[19:04] Andrew Hellershanks: One things about profiles

[19:04] Richardus Raymaker: just on time, to jump on.

[19:04] paulie Flomar: Just the question of OSGRid migration. Sorry I missed it.

[19:04] Nebadon Izumi: ah were close Paulie

[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: i'll send you notecard with the log of meeting

[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec

[19:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Some info is maintained in core tables in 069. If moving to osprofiles, some of that data needs to be copied to the profile module tables. I don't have a procedure or set of scripts to do that yet

[19:05] paulie Flomar: dont put yourself out .thx. :)

[19:05] Notecard saved

[19:05] paulie Flomar accepted your inventory offer.

[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: there you go

[19:05] Dave Coyle: we're not using any of opensim's migrations for the backend data

[19:05] Richardus Raymaker: Do you move the servers to new place before migration. i thionk its bgood to have at least 2 weeks between both

[19:05] paulie Flomar: got it. thx. :)

[19:06] Dave Coyle: so one more script would be no big deal. :)

[19:06] Dave Coyle: richardus: no machines are moving, though we are using a new one

[19:06] Dahlia Trimble: guess Im out of here too, bye all :)

[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya OSgrid.org will shift to a new server in Texas

[19:06] Richardus Raymaker: ok. the cool ones :)

[19:06] Dave Coyle: bye dahlia

[19:06] BlueWall Slade: see you guys

[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya Dahlia, thanks for swinging by :)

[19:06] paulie Flomar: bye, d.

[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: see ya Bluewall

[19:06] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I'm out of here too. I want to get this change log done and commit some changes

[19:07] Richardus Raymaker: still good to have some time between both to fix problems

[19:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye bl;uewall

[19:07] Nebadon Izumi: later Andrew

[19:07] Dave Coyle: richardus: no, we need a clean break

[19:07] Andrew Hellershanks: tty on IRC. See everyone next week

[19:07] paulie Flomar: I'ma pop back to Cameo. My Mate is building it out. :)

[19:07] Nebadon Izumi: nice Paulie

[19:07] paulie Flomar: :)

[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: we are doing texting prior to the actual grid shift

[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: i dont want anyone to think were going to just migrate withotu testing

[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: its just not going to be available after the big switch over

[19:08] Richardus Raymaker: ok

[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: the old grid that is

[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: texting=testing*

[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: so its possible with migration we have noth servers available 0.6.9 and 0.7.x ?

[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: no

[19:09] Dave Coyle: no

[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: noth = both

[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: auuw. thats so painbfull point

[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: once we go live with 0.7 thats it

[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: well were working it out though

[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: you migrate the region location to ?

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: by the time we go live i pretty much will have tested all migration scenarios

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: it will just be a matter of downing your region

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating softare

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating ini files

[19:10] Richardus Raymaker: crossing fingers

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: restart your sim

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: no one should loose locations

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: we'll migrate the region table as well

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: so if you cant migrate that day

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: you will have time

[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: your sims just wont be accessible

[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: the migration im not worried about. its more the pile of config files x 23

[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: but your location wont be lost

[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya it wont be so bad

[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: we'll have new configs posted on the website

[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: and we'll be around to help people

[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: still need to adjust every one for ports and database for mysql etc.

[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: but it saves work

[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya its gonna be a bit of work

[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: but its not that bad

[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: most everyones update scripts will still work

[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: its not change that drasticly

[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be some new files eventually

[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: for osprofies

[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: but that probably wont be immediate

[19:13] Richardus Raymaker: i saw already some new ini files

[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be 1 new dll people who dont use osgrid releases will have to drop in

[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: http://download.danger.osgrid.org/OpenSim.ini.txt

[19:14] Richardus Raymaker: what about osserach ? still dll ?

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: http://download.danger.osgrid.org/GridCommoni.ini.txt

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: are some examples

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: they wont be exactly the same

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but its a good sample

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: ossearch yes

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but there is a new dll

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: same name just newer version

[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will be available in downloads

[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be sure to make sure all this is known in the announcment

[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: and i'll probably have a release available atleast 24 hours prior t the actual switch over

[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: for those who want to get an early start on converting to 0.7

[19:16] Richardus Raymaker: maby idea to have all the needed modules on the migration page as download

[19:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the plan

[19:16] Dave Coyle: we'll make a few announcements. when we pick the date we'll announce it at least a week in advance.

[19:16] Richardus Raymaker: do it at least 2 weekends before migaryion. its done at workday or in weekend ?

[19:17] Richardus Raymaker: migration

[19:17] Nebadon Izumi: its not going to matter really Richardus

[19:17] Nebadon Izumi: if it takes people a few days to update that wont be a big problem

[19:17] Dave Coyle: no, we can't guarantee 2 weekends notice

[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: even if we did people probably still wouldnt know

[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: people tend to not read our announcments anyway

[19:18] Richardus Raymaker: ok. i dont have problem with that. but you can wait for strange noise

[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya people are gonna complain no matter what we do

[19:18] Richardus Raymaker: the in the viewer dont work. best works on the activity screen at lest there.

[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll make sure we give ample notice

[19:19] Dave Coyle: scheduling is really about when we admins are free for a long block of time to actually run the migration. regions can be upgraded at the operator's leisure.

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: honestly

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: somtimes dave will make news announcments

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont even see them on the loginscreen

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: until days later

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[19:19] Richardus Raymaker: dont tell LL. :O

[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: the loginscreen is usually a big blur for me

[19:20] Richardus Raymaker: sounds like some cache dont get refreshed

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: no they are there

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: i just dont see em

[19:20] paulie Flomar is Online

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: brain fail

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: just moving to fast

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: dont take the time to look at it usually

[19:20] Richardus Raymaker: for some reason in the viewer i look at thge bottom, clikc login.

[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever really take notice of the loginscreen is when i myself post news

[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: lol

[19:21] Dave Coyle: so hows that WP sqlite migration coming?

[19:21] Quilzie Xemax: I usually go: "Hm, okay no red thing, huh nice picture. Right time to login..."

[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: wel, fonts are small for me. so important things you miss easy if its not big

[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: looks ready

[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: let me log in and test MOAP

[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: brb

[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm ehh. its here more clikc -> click -> clikc

[19:22] Nebadon Izumi: heh music channel is working right off the bat

[19:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats a good sign

[19:23] Nebadon Izumi: prims are there

[19:23] Richardus Raymaker: wich viewer nebadon ?

[19:24] Nebadon Izumi: SL 2

[19:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya this seems to be working

[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: its SL Viewer 2.1.1

[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: MOAP is working though

[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: so i guess it worked fine

[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: everything looks fine otherwise

[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: regualr media works too

[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: videos

[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: heh i have music / moap and video stream all going at same time

[19:26] Richardus Raymaker: wrong viewer. so i need to wait

[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the only way to test MOAP is viewer 2

[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: no TPV's accept kirsten have MOAP

[19:27] Dave Coyle: i'm gonna log out of here and pop over w/ V2

[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: but kirstens doesnt even run for me

[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok Dave

[19:27] Dave Coyle is Offline

[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: doh

[19:27] Richardus Raymaker: still waiting for the old gui

[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence is moving to SL2 soon

[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: but their plan is to emulate the old interface a bit more

[19:28] Richardus Raymaker: i know.

[19:29] Richardus Raymaker: as long the keep the chat input box in the chat window. thats really painfull in kirsten.

[19:46] Richardus Raymaker: bye penny, nebadon

[19:46] Gennifer Eros is Online

[19:58] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)