Chat log from the meeting on 2014-09-02

[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://opensimulator.org [11:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: And it seemed that after a process crashed and went zombie, the rest were there, hanging [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: Urgh, I spent 1.5 days looking for a bug only to just discover it was probably coming from debug code I inserted in OpenMetaverse.dll and accidentally introduced into master opensim [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: :( [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: that sucks [11:04]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ahhhh [11:04]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi justin [11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: it sucks big balls [11:05]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Configuration#Running_OpenSimulator_0.6.7_to_0.7.6.1_in_64_bit_Windows [11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yiks 0.7.6.1 ? [11:05]  vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: the camera on vehicles is messed up now since commit r/25154 [11:05]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: what was the consensus about that - is it still useful? [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, I never knew that was a major reason [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: My opinion is that it causes more difficulty than benefit now [11:07]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: do you want me to start removing it? [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though I would prefer not to start removing it and then stop unless there's a very good reason [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: should we take it to the mailing lists? [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I would just remove it and see if anyone complains [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: it can always be reinstated [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I will study it before starting to remove it. [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think is is probably not that much [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: it's just a shell which forces execution in 32-bit mode, nothing more afair [11:08] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: If I start it, I'll finish [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: and doesn't appea rto work properly if you actually are 32-bit... [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey nods [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: great [11:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok, on my TODO list [11:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: [11:11] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: the camera on vehicles is messed up now since commit r/25154 [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, which commit is r/25154? [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect that was one of the friday changes [11:10] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: ya the very last one [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: for sitting avatars reutrning velocity? [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: 473c55? [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya i meant to test that [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: never did [11:10] Mata Hari: that's the very last commit...odd that it would affect camera [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect cameria is assuming something about vel settings that i didn't realize [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: vegaslon: could you confirm that's the one? [11:11] vegaslon.plutonian @vegaslon.ddns.net:9000: it effects camera becouse the veiwer is getting two versions of velocity now and thinks the avatar is moving [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: kind of makes sense [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: you were trying to fix that problem where if you were still walking when you sat [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: vegaslon: ok thanks, I will either revert or fix soon [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: your avatar would keep its velocity? [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that change was because script functions didn't return velocity properly when avatar was on vehicle [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: was always 0 [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but clearly something is relying on it being zero, ho hum [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: vegaslon: thanks for the info [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim topics today? [11:15] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi [11:15]  Mata Hari: it's been interesting using HG standalone for the last couple of weeks....reminded me of a number of bugs I reported 12-15 months ago that are still broken [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: there aren't enough developers [11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi Mata, more ductape [11:15] Mata Hari: things like online/offline HG friends notifications that appear in console but never get transmitted to the viewer [11:16] Mata Hari: or standing in the same region as an HG friend and your IMs to one another are all prefixed with the (Saved <date time) even though they're being transmitted instantly [11:17] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: "patches are welcome" :) [11:17]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have noticed that during the HG friend process, 2 calling cards are created. [11:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi dahlia. yes mata now i see. i have soemtimes problems that IM word one way fine but sending it back gives offline message [11:17]  Mata Hari: you're probably prefer to receive them from someone with a passing familiarity with C# [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, if it compiles and helps the problem then it can always be refined [11:18]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Mata - do you have a Hypergrid? [11:19]  Mata Hari: also on login to my own regions my viewer is stuck showing "Fetching" even though there's 0 http traffic [11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: the hardest part can be finding exactly where the issue is. [11:19]  Mata Hari: but if I empty trash it instantly clears [11:19] Mata Hari: and will clear even if my trash is empty [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: Yes, there are bugs [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: look in mantis and you'll see thousands of tehm [11:20] Mata Hari: that one could conceivably be related to the other main inventory fetch bug since OSG handles the trash folder differently than some other grids [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: that seems unlikely [11:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Can anyone explain how asset duplication occurs, if it is convoluted I'll pass. [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: Billy: how do you mean? [11:21] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Keep hearing about the de-duping? [11:21] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: 100% same content with different uuid [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: deduping works by doing a hash of the asset [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: usually SHA256 hash [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and comparing all new assets with hash [11:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: importing objects [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: billy: there are ways in which it occurs, thuogh I couldn't detail all of them 100% [11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Bluewall. that is the answer [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: anything that matches an existing asset gets shed and only a new reference is created to the already existing asset [11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Billy, upload the same image twice (for example). You have two asset records in the database with the same data blob. [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the chance of 2 assets having same hash that are not identical is like a trillion to one odds [11:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if several users import simliar object, they may create collisions [11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I wondered how 2 identical UUID could exist [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: that's a good example [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: OAR import may actually use the same asset in many cases [11:23] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: kk [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: so there's a small level of avoidance of dupes, but it's not great [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: justin, I've often wondered how OAR import works re: loading assets. I was hoping it would check for existing asset before creating a new one. [11:23] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont think the default asset server hashes [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: assets have their original UUID in OARs [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It doesn't, AFAIK. [11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: That last comment of mine was for Dahlia. [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: so if it's imported and an asset exists with the same UUID, then that is used instead. Which is not a great approach but at the time the only alternative was to insert yet another copy of the asset [11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: always where thinking oar checks with asset server if asset alread exists, means same uuid = no upload [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: which would have been probably worst [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: worse [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Richardus, I was hoping it does that. [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory, you could use the hash of the asset also as its UUID directly [11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've been trying to decide if I switch a grid to SRAS or whether to wait for some built-in deduping of assets. [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: the block to switching to built in, for me, is working out the complete migration strategy [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: it actually will already auto-migrate as you go along - the question is whether that's sufficient or if there needs to be a final command to complete migration for rarely accessed assets [11:26] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: theres a hashing routine in the materials module that would probably work for other assets [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I have a migration method for my version of a debuping system. [11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: s/debuping/deduping/ [11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: The time consuming part is the exporting of the asset blobs to disk. [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002 makes a note to update his asset blobs to disk patch to make sure it can be applied to 0.8 [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I did get my local HG working again, after puzzling through some insanity in the code [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lokl [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: it turns out that things don't work very well if you have your simulator configured for HG but not your robust... [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: what did you find in there JCC? [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: but because of the insane code it's difficult to actually notify the user of that fact in a sane way [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Ahh [11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yeah, configure iot right or you have fun [11:31] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes, last week I had the errors popping up because of a mis-config [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: amazingly, some code assumes that a lack of certain return data signals success and not failure. So if the HG tries to contact a robust endpoint that simply isn't there, it apepars to assume a form of success... [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey sighs [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, couldn't you have the instance make a query to Robust during start up to check that both are HG or not HG? [11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: just how many testers are you loading on today neb? [11:32]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: is there a quick way to drop attempts to reach a misconfigured url? [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it depends on the misconfiguration [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i was hoping for 80 [11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, Could it be done during the HG version check ?? [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: like mine last week [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have still the problem that i used in the past a wrong url for objects. and i dont see a way to fix it [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: maybe, though I'm always cautious about introducing more service calls [11:33] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online [11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wrong \ i think [11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin: would it need a new call or just extra piece of info returned from an existing call/check? [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe blacklist a url after 3-5 attempts ? [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I don't know, it's not something I have had the time to think about [11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, np. Just throwing out some ideas. [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I just spent an age chasing down ghosts in UDP acking :( [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: though hopefully I have found why the keynotes had enormous outbound resend counts [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I was just super annoyed that opensim didn't report more obviously what was going wrong, and then spent a few hours invesitgating just to find that changing that would involve checking a whole bunch of other stuff :( [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, anything else to discuss today? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: all 80 bots are in [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: i was able to get all 80 on 1 machine [11:39] Mata Hari: one thing I've noticed with HG tping is that there seems to be a ton of data that has to get sent in a very short period of time or the tp will fail [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: trying for a new record? [11:40] Mata Hari: but if you then immediately re-try the tp it works instantly [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: attachment related? [11:40] Mata Hari: prossibly [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Mata, Might be a timer in the viewer end that is too short. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: well previously Justin [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: when i was using Ragegast to sit my avatars [11:41] Mata Hari: this was also happing with inbound people to my region who had very little in the way of attachments though [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: there is some sub-optimal stuff going on with HG as well when parsing XML, though not quite as bad as the previous attachments insanity [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i would get to around 50 or 60 and it became impossible to sit them anymore [11:41] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya Ive noticed that too [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: now that I dont have to sit them with the client [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i can have 80 logged in and sat in 20-25 minutes at most [11:41] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lots of stuff, looks like assets or something [11:41] Mata Hari: it seems like it wants *all* appearance data inside that (15-second?) window or it will just sit there for 2 minutes and then fail [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I have a nasty suspicion I have to audit all the HG comms, just to get an idea of what the difficulties may be for the conference [11:42] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: its as if it wants all the assets before it teleports you [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: if i dont have to run the region scanner to find a chair radegast uses a lot less memory [11:42] Mata Hari: but the data still gets there somehow [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: i have 80 clients running [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and still have about 5gb ram free [11:42] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we should put soem #ifdef in the code and set some counters for various url handlers [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: out of 16gb total [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly it's cached on first failure [11:42] Mata Hari: then on next attempt the data is all cached so it works instantly [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: so doesn't need to be re-sent on the next attempt [11:42] Mata Hari: right [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's what I would assume [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: how do you know it's sending a lot of data. You're looking at a network monitor or similar? [11:43] Mata Hari: just reams and reams of messages in the console about getting textures, etc [11:43] Mata Hari: an inbound tp from a friends gerates 100-200 lines in the console about that stuff [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: have you chased down what those textures are? Whether they related to attachments on the avatar [11:43] Mata Hari: (using default loggning) [11:44] Mata Hari: no [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: hg stuff is very debug log heavy. The non-HG has been slowly worn away [11:44] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: there are a lot of console messages [11:44] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: wear an avatar with a lot of attachments and watch the console as you hg to a new place [11:44] Mata Hari: yeah [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, that's easy with neb's aliens [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: logging in general when you get heavy console spew can actually degrade overall server performance [11:44] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that is probably the bulk of the messages? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: there is a point where logging becomes counter productive [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: attachments. [11:45] Mata Hari: I guess the question is more whether it wouldn't be possible to tranfer the agent and let the attachments finish as fast as they can [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, it's an avenue that I need to check for the conference so may get some attention soon, or at least I will write up/understand exactly what is happening [11:45] Mata Hari: vs the current method seems to be an all or nothing thing [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: probably inventory folder requests too [11:45] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: even though they are protected [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya i notice here today [11:45] Mata Hari: yes, tons of folder requests as well [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: when some people log in i get a ton of yellow warnings [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: about cant read folder [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: our old inventory friend, eh? [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: theres a glitch in the protocol. It shouldnt impede the teleport waiting for asset transfers [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we should nix those [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i always assumed that was HG invnetory hitting protected folders [11:46] Mata Hari: but all of that has to complete before it will let the tp happen [11:46] Mata Hari: and the time window is something like 15 seconds [11:46] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: maybe its a http queue issue [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: for HG, we should only request the My Suitcase [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: depends if the warnings are important or unavoidable problems [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: that wouldnt be so for OSgrid [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: would need to be careful how that is implemented [11:46] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Bluewall++ [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: not everyone uses suitcase [11:46] Mata Hari: I think most HG users would be content to get there, then let their stuff catch up to them [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: even if unavoidable, I would prefer to see them recorded somewhere accessible via a console command, just to avoid the frustration of having bugs connected with unrecorded errors [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think a lot of it is R&D releated [11:47] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: like if it creates a bunch of http requests and then tries to send a tp request via rest, the request might sit for a while [11:47] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe a separate log file? [11:47] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Has to be suitcase, all other inventory folders are marked unavailable [11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Mata, sounds reasonable. We often have to wait for our appearance to rez after logging in to a grid or after TPs. [11:47] Mata Hari: exactly [11:47] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it tries to get all folders [11:47] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the remote server refuses [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: you know [11:47] Mata Hari: I can live iwth being a cloud for a minute or two if I can actually get there reliably [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i know what this might be [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:48] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: and tha ttakes cycles and bandwidth [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: [InterestManagement] UpdatePrioritizationScheme = FrontBack [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: this [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if you are running anything other than this [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: Avatars will jam up the simulator on login [11:49] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well I'm amazed hg works as good as it does but it still has a few rough edges [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: giving avatars priority on login is bad news [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: i'm amazed hg works at all [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: some grids like it because of RPG stuff [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect if you switch to FrontBack [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: you will see major improvements on logins [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise if its BestAvatarAppearance [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: avatasr pull priority [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and it can be super nasty [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: its not as noticeable with single file loigins [11:50] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: need to switch computers, brb [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but 2 or 3 simutlaneous logins [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: its not good [11:51] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I didnt think the interest stuff worked [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: oh it does [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: the only one that works good though is FrontBack [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: in my opinion [11:51] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Is that only for HG grids? [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: its for everything [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but using BestAvatarApperance [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if you get someone who gets super long delays [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: that could jam up threads [11:52] Mata Hari: maybe FrontBack ought to be made the default then? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: because it pushes all priority to loading avatar apperance over everything else [11:52] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: "Hey! You like my threads?" [11:52] Mata Hari: I've just now changed to that....will be interesting to see if it makes any different to inbound tps [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya definitely [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: let us know for sure [11:53] Mata Hari: (I had it set at the default) [11:53] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'll have to try that FrontBack setting and see what effect it has. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: I beleive the default is still BestAvatarAppearance [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: let me check [11:53] Mata Hari: yes, it is [11:53]  Mata Hari: I'm looking at it right now...that's the default [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: it is [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i suspect you will see some improvement there [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it probably wont fix all [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but you should see gains [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have a scene octree in a private module. I wouldnt mind donating it but it probably should be integrated directly into scene rather than being a region module and I'm not sure of what anyone's plans are for scene [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: that is how all the OSGrid plazas and this entire grid is configured [11:54] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it would be awesome for interest management [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya to be honest [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the interest management stuff never worked well [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i saw major problems after it was instituted [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: performance tanked bad [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: it was never the same after that [11:56] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya you need to use an octree or its horribly slow [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: other things have improved and its gotten considerable better [11:56] Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002 still hears some thunder rumbles [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but prior to it existing things ran much better [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: though it probably didnt scale well [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: thats when all the avatar apparance problems started [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lots of clouds etc.. [11:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: also LL started baking all the textures on the avatar and sending them vrom the viewr [11:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: so, that makes a lot of sense [11:57] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well clouds could be any one of hundreds of potential failure points [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya I just remember arguing about it a bunch with jhurliman and jradford [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: who did most of that work [11:58] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lol [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: then melanie made some adjustments later [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: man, how many years ago was this? [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ages [11:59] Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 wonders where the hurlicane is blowing now.... [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: he does move around a lot [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: he was clever :) [11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: and knew when to up sticks [11:59]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: he was, at that [11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: that music site was cool [12:00]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: cull.tv? cant remember [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: i occaisionally get updates from linkedin saying he changed jobs [12:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that was it [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: ya cull.tv i still get requests in SL for people wanting that TV i made for them [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:01]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Does Opensim only support V3 viewerss now? [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: no [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's 12 btw [12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I gotta run - I'll jump home then back to keynote 1 to park while I'm AFK [12:01] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: are V1 and V2 gone?