Chat log from the meeting on 2017-10-10

[11:12] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: I saw and spoke with Ubit this morning for  a bit [11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: then he was  off to real  but didnt mention how long [11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: He is working on Ode apparently [11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: was getting him to look at some code changes  by  non core dev  that helped  with laggy mesh rezzing [11:15] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: mesh stuff rezzes  faster  so it makes quite a difference  when there is a room full of mesh avatars [11:17] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I'd try pinging an OSgrid admin, but don't see any online at the moment. [11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: a few weeks back i mentioned  one method  whereby the unknown creator/hypergrid creator  names  were replaced  with region owner names [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: that worked to get rid of  lag  but  now zeroing in  more where the prob is with caching [11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so trying one method involving  commenting out  a line in UserManagementModule.cs [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: scene.EventManager.OnPrimsLoaded += new EventManager.PrimsLoaded(EventManager_OnPrimsLoaded); [11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: that helps avatars  to rezz faster [11:22] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Arielle, is the issue only hypergrid users? [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: no, general [11:23] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ok thanks. [11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: go to lbsa for example  and  people coming in  with mesh can take  a bit to rezz [11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: people already there  will take  quite  a while 5+  minutes  for all to show [11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: if like 5-10 peoople there [11:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: A lot of those types of issues can be fixed with faster servers, and the improved HTTP server that Ubit is working on. I don't ever seem to have an issue seeing mesh most places. Some texture lag but not mesh .. [11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is slow it normally takes about 1 1/2 minutes for me on Safari to see everyone [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: how much mesh Leighton? [11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: people often pare down if going out on the HG [11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: A fair amount I would assume both avatars and environment rez in a about 2 minutes. Textures are the worst for me. [11:26] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: textures seem to be the last thing for me too. [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i dont have an issue with the  region stuff  but do see a lot of slowness  for  any avatar stuff [11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: if their avatar complexity is near 400000 then that is a problem [11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: especially for products picked up on the  HG [11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: times that by 10 people thats a huge problem right there [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: As an example, went to a event on SL he other day EVERYONE, had mesh avatars, complexity over 200k for each one some over 300k, LAG LAG LAG, with 12 avatars, region on OS with 30 avatars and almost the same amount of lag .. I think you will find that a LOT of mesh lag is viewer side, not server side .. [11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @ Bill [11:27] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: well viewer or server it is still lag [11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: and with commenting out that line  avi's rezzed a lot faster [11:28] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: there are distinctions between the two one the user can do something about the other only a server admin can manage [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If turning complexity down on your viewer stops the lag, then there is NOTHING that the server can do to change that, it is already on your system [11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (of course I mean for a region that is fully loaded, not loading) [11:30] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: would it be possible for a viewer to have a performance tool that identifies server v. client? Does that already exist? [11:31] Sheera Khan: If the HTTP-server component of .net resp. mono is such an issue why not use nginx or apache? Since the region cache is acting as a proxy we could use squid as a substitute too I guess [11:31] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: advanced > performance tools [11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Firestorm has lag meter, but not sure what it means. [11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: All is normal at the moment. [11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: :P [11:32] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Sheera: OSgrid uses nginx for load balancing. I don't remember if it caches or not. [11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: One thing is the OS server renders NO graphics, it does not render anything graphically, everything you se is rendered locally, Physics are calculated on the server and then sent, but displayed locally ... 85% of what you see in OS or in SL for that matter is all done on your local PC [11:34] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Arielle, did your earlier comment about unknown user have something to do with the lag? [11:34] Sheera Khan: @Marcus: I guess that's why they use a filesystem based asset server [11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes apparently to do with trying to  retrieve  creator  names  from  grids  that are down or otherwise inaccessable [11:35] Sheera Khan: but mostly the viewer gets the assets from the region cache... and there is no nginx buffering it [11:35] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ok, ty. [11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: @Sheera: in part. That's also just much more scalable than MySQL is, and easier for things like deduplication. [11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I also use filebased assets, much easier to manage, overall [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i can put  on some  hairs   and  you can  see  how long  it takes  for you to see  the hair  complete  on my head [11:37] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: OK / any thoughts on the Kokua viewer ? [11:37] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Kokua needs more devs. [11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: only thing i dont know  if  the code here  is  different  from master  in that regard [11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: How long it takes me to see it here, and how long it might take me to see it someplace else is relative to the speed of the servers, [11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: not just the speed of the servers [11:39] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: the last time I used Kokua it seemed to be noticeably faster at rezzing things / sad to see it go [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the speed of the asset server and internet connection is going to make the biggest difference [11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: are there still plans to develop Kokua as an Opensim specific viewer? [11:39] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Kokua used to be my favorite viewer. Sadlty, it has a terrible framerate these days, and the OpenSim version lags behind LL code. [11:40] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was, however, able to HG here from Kitely. [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is because the OS version is not trying to keep up with the LL code [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it can't [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: over the next couple of versions of the LL code, the LL code will no longer be compatible with OS [11:41] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: yeah / so whats that mean for FireStorm ? [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they have already said they will focus on SL first [11:42] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I have talked with Jessica and there is little support planed for OpenSim [11:42] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: oh no not my Firestorm ... [11:42] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: at the current  speed of Opensim development  it will be  a while before  the  current viewers  are  outdated  for opensim [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yes, moving forward OS support from FS will only be as an afterthought [11:42] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know, right? @leighton [11:42] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: /a tear rolls down my cheek [11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm addicted to the script pre-processor in FireStorm, can't live without it! [11:43] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Alchemy is pretty nice [11:43] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: isnt that based on the Firestorm code base? [11:43] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: it runs well on my Linux box's [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Cinder kind of does her own thing, so no telling what there is in Alchmey, LOL .. but it works good [11:44] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use it as my backup viewer? It reminds me of the SL viewer. [11:44] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I had thought Alchemy was based on Singularity code / I was wrong / it is based on SL code [11:44] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what is s/l doing to make  it incompatible? [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Has Alchemey started to support 1024 draw distance yet? , need that 1024 [11:44] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I could be wrong JayC [11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: SL is totally changing their comms protocols [11:45] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: physics too? [11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: physcis has nothing to do with the viewer [11:45] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Bill is that something that Opensim will have to do in the future? [11:46] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ohh? they are dumping Havok as the physics engine ? [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: At some point maybe, or maybe OS will take a left turn and go a new direction all together [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: No they are keeping Havok [11:46] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: ah I see so there are different ways of updating the comms protocols. [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: what I am saying is the physics engine you are using has nothing really to do with how the viewer talks to the servers [11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: OpenSim has depended on libOMV for the LL protocol stack. Since Latif passed away, I don't know how well that has been maintained. And I'd dare to say that nobody knew the protocol as well as he did. [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: EXACTLY @Marcus [11:47] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah [11:47] Arielle Popstar: isn't Cinder maintaining them now? [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But that libOMV is not going to matter anymore, once LL takes their turn, and they don't plan on at this point opensourcing it like they did before [11:47] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I know Cinder decided to maintain Radegast, but I don't know about libOMV. [11:48] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: libOMV was created before the viewer was open sourced. ;) The protocol was not derived from viewer code, it was reverse engineeered. But that's not a trivial undertaking. [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right I meant they don't plan on opensourcing the viewer this time, for reverse engineering [11:49] Arielle Popstar: https://bitbucket.org/cinderblocks/libremetaverse [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think FS said they had to sign some new agreement or something [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: to use the LL code [11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Viewer isn't needed. All you need is a proxy. LibOMV comes with one. [11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: That's interesting. [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Once LL changes the comms protocols libOMV becomes useless for talking to SL [11:51] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: As long as they aren't encrypting the protocol, using a proxy to see the data isn't hard. The hard part if making sense of it. [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are eliminating UDP all together, going totally HTTP, and from what I read some propritary thing they wrote [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: similar to what they are using for sansar [11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Yeah, that's been in the cards for quite some time. [11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: LLUDP is an antiquited monster. [11:53] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: UDP is as old as dirt / stupid idea in todays times [11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yeah don't get me started on LLUDP, it is like the bastard child of 14 other bastard children [11:53] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: made sense back in 1960 [11:55] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: To be honest, this could be the kick in the pants OpenSim has needed for a long time. We've been to reliant on LL protocols and clients for far too long. [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I agree with you Marcus [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: We need a wakeup call, a real one, not just breakfixes [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but considering how many people don't like .9x, imagine what is going to happen when things REALLY CHANGE [11:56] Arielle Popstar: whats not to like about .9?