Chat log from the meeting on 2008-06-10

[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: is it really 1052 AM PST? [10:52] Charles Krinkeb: I see the same thing on the windows server with a duplicate of this region. That is, gray for a while until everything loads. [10:52] Neas Bade: hmmm... yeh, that's od [10:52] Teravus Ousley is Online [10:52] Charles Krinkeb: Nah. [10:52] Hiro Protagonist is Online [10:52] Dyne Talamasca: Should be 12:10 PST [10:52] Dyne Talamasca: pm [10:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: how bizarre [10:53] Teravus Ousley: Hi! [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: that's what it says on my viewer [10:53] Charles Krinkeb: Time clock on the server from bash says 11:52AM, so its a little slow, but not an hour slow. [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Teravus [10:53] Kurt Stringer: Hi Teravus, Neb [10:53] Dyne Talamasca: Same for me, Justin [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ah I see [10:53] Teravus Ousley: haha, it says 10:53 on my client [10:53] Xantor Welesa: time to install ntps? [10:53] Xantor Welesa: ntpd even [10:53] Charles Krinkeb: Looks like 10 avatars, 706Mbyte VIRT [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: hi kurt, charles, neas, xantor, bluewall, crhsi d, dyne, nebadon, drank [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: er frank [10:53] Charles Krinkeb: sorry, 11 [10:54] BlueWall Slade: hi [10:54]  Dyne Talamasca: howdy [10:54] Xantor Welesa: Hi Justin :) [10:54]  Frank Corsi: Hi All [10:54]  You: hey sorry distracted for 1 more minute here [10:54]  Neas Bade: hey all [10:54]  Xantor Welesa points at the http displayer, my local time :) [10:54] Neas Bade: we need to get mo in here and build us some chairs [10:54] Dyne Talamasca: Now there are 21 people on OSGrid :) [10:54]  Charles Krinkeb: Yes, the clock is a little fubar. [10:54]  Charles Krinkeb: I am more concerened if the region will run for the full hour. [10:55]  Xantor Welesa: hehe aye, first things first :) [10:55] Neas Bade: yeh, we'll see [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: let us see [10:55] Teravus Ousley: One bit of news. Yesterday, I *finally* completed DuplicateOnRay [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: want to place a bet? [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: good stuff Teravus [10:55] Teravus Ousley: .. so you can get perfect single prim alignments now. [10:55] Charles Krinkeb: Fantastic. [10:55] Dyne Talamasca: Yeah, I want to test that on SP Plaza [10:55] Neas Bade: no betting with justin, because then he'll create an army of bouncing balls to make it try to crash [10:55] Radar HUD: Active objects detected: 10 [10:55] Radar HUD: 1. Name - Radar HUD,  Owner - Nebadon Izumi [10:55] Radar HUD: 1 UUID: 7431abba-e420-4e4e-9a00-641844370c1c Decription: "" Position: <128.996918,129.475418,22.192179> Rotation: <0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,1.000000> Velocity: <0.000000,0.000000,0.000000> Owner: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Group: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 Creator: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Mass: 0.000000 [10:55] Radar HUD: 2. Name - Justin Clark-Casey,  Owner - Justin Clark-Casey [10:55] Dyne Talamasca hasn't checked to see if it's updated to that rev yet [10:55] Teravus Ousley: hahaha [10:55] Neas Bade: ter, nice [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: bah, you saw through my cunning plan :D [10:56] Charles Krinkeb: Bet he cannot beat Nebadons bouncing video screens. [10:56] Kurt Stringer: lol [10:56] Xantor Welesa: is wright running on a not-compiled-with-debug version now? [10:56] Teravus Ousley: haha, Neas. Make sure to inform JClark. he was the first one to report it, back in September or October. [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: that sounds like a good idea [10:56] Neas Bade: we do an internal meeting every tuesday morning on my test sim, and justin is always bouncing balls everywhere [10:56] Charles Krinkeb: no. Same as default. That is, debug version and "mono --debug OpenSim.exe" [10:56] Neas Bade: I think he has ADD :) [10:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I have very bad ADD [10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: I need to be more imaginative though, actually devote some time to think what I'm going to do in that meeting [10:57]  Charles Krinkeb: I used to be able to add, but now can only subtract. [10:57]  Xantor Welesa: ah so the culling of the towering inferno saved some ram then [10:57]  Neas Bade: heh [10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles, lol [10:57]  Dyne Talamasca: hee [10:58]  Charles Krinkeb: I dont know. Simplfying the sim has helped. Also there were some config options I reverted. That is back to dotnetengine and no currency helper. [10:58]  You: yea removing the prims did alittle [10:58]  Xantor Welesa: still 100's of MBs seems rather excessive compared with a plain windows build, though on windows the 'debug' flag is default off [10:59]  You: but overall it was maybe 50-60 meg in the end [10:59] Charles Krinkeb: I can certainly see that with a large amount of traffic, the memory footprint does keep increasing however. I suspect we have more traffic on this sim and most others. [10:59] Neas Bade: so, I have a question on the migration code. I'd like to be able to remove a lot of the logic for database migrations that's inlined now, but I'm a little affraid of breaking too many people. How bad would it be to pull some of the upgrade code in there now and assume people have either no db, or the latest version in our tree? [10:59] You: i also removed about 60 scripts [10:59] Charles Krinkeb: Thank, you, sir. [10:59]  Xantor Welesa: I seem to remember a wiki page that mentions about 32MB / sim orso :) [10:59]  You: yea for an empty sim [10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: I hope to start looking at that a little in the coming week [10:59]  You: with no physics and scripts [10:59]  You: hehe [10:59]  Teravus Ousley: Eh, pretty bad, Neas. hehe [10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: also it would be really good to work on that user login problem we were talking about last week [10:59]  Teravus Ousley: people in older revs updating to this one will be lost [11:00]  Neas Bade: ok [11:00]  Neas Bade: well, I'll leave around the manual sync path [11:00]  Teravus Ousley: .. what was the last stable release. [11:00]  Charles Krinkeb: r4804, [11:00]  Charles Krinkeb: Are we ready for the next one? [11:00]  Teravus Ousley: .. because if you assume that the person has the r4804 database, then you might be ok. [11:00] Neas Bade: I don't think we've done a db rev since the last table [11:00] Kurt Stringer: I have seen good results with r5055 [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: another version sounds good if we're stable [11:01] Radar HUD: Active objects detected: 11 [11:01] Radar HUD: 1. Name - Radar HUD,  Owner - Nebadon Izumi [11:01] Radar HUD: 1 UUID: 7431abba-e420-4e4e-9a00-641844370c1c Decription: "" Position: <129.554459,129.139969,23.465721> Rotation: <0.000000,0.000000,0.000000,1.000000> Velocity: <0.000000,0.000000,0.000000> Owner: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Group: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 Creator: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Mass: 0.000000 [11:01] Radar HUD: 2. Name - Primitive,  Owner - Nebadon Izumi [11:01] Radar HUD: 2 UUID: 7431abba-e420-4e4e-9a00-641844370c1c Decription: "" Position: <129.118454,129.010727,21.287642> Rotation: <0.000000,0.000000,-0.958818,0.284020> Velocity: <0.000000,0.000000,0.000000> Owner: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Group: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 Creator: 7b2022f0-5f19-488c-b7e5-829d8f96b448 Mass: 1.250001 [11:01] Radar HUD: 3. Name - Nebadon Izumi,  Owner - Nebadon Izumi [11:01] Teravus Ousley: though, you'll also have to consider the last *point* release [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: it does sound best to just leave the existing code in [11:01]  Neas Bade: ok, before another rev, I'd like to get the migration code in there, because it will make future rolling forward a lot better [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: the existing 'migration' code [11:01] Charles Krinkeb: Can we aim for the end of this weekend for a minor release? [11:02] Teravus Ousley: yay to database migrations easier! [11:02] Teravus Ousley: can I get get a here here, on that!? [11:02] Neas Bade: well, the new stuff is somewhat orthoginal. So it will be "odd" to say the least. I'll see what I can do without geting too odd [11:02] Teravus Ousley: :D [11:02] Charles Krinkeb: Ooops. We have 13 avatars. Unlucky number, we need a 14th [11:02] Xantor Welesa: aye there's a lot of stuff to be persisted in the databse, which needs new fields, which need migration [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, +1 [11:02] Charles Krinkeb: VIRT=767MByte [11:02] Neas Bade: Ter, check out OpenSim/Data/Migration.cs if you want to see [11:02] Teravus Ousley: cool, thanks [11:03] You: ok dont get me wrong and all, maybe i am misunderstanding something, even though it seems relativly stable here right now [11:03] You: isnt 767mb a bit high? [11:03] Teravus Ousley considers working on finding a good sit position and rotation next... [11:04] Xantor Welesa: no, Neb, not a 'bit' high :P [11:04] Commodore Amiga: Ask, and ye shall receive [11:04] Charles Krinkeb: Yes, it is higher then I would like, no question. We are not discounting the observation one iota. [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: it does to me - but then I always somehow feel we should be able to fit everything into a 48k spectrum [11:04] Neas Bade: we know mono is on the mem heavy side. Honestly, the constant "this takes less memory on windows thing" gets old :) [11:04] Charles Krinkeb: No computer will ever need more then 640k of RAM. [11:05]  Xantor Welesa: bah I still feel the pain of shelling out for the 16K ram module on the ZX-81 [11:05]  You: im just trying to understand why the size is so difernt between windows and linux [11:05]  You: why this region requires 600-700meg at start [11:05]  You: on linux [11:05]  You: but 200-300 on windows [11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:05]  Teravus Ousley: Well, you might test the debug flag. It's a good idea [11:05]  You: what am i missing [11:05]  Teravus Ousley: who knows. Maybe it'll reduce mem consumption a bit. [11:05]  Neas Bade: neb, try mono on windows, I bet you'll see the same numbers [11:05]  Neas Bade: it's about how much space a string takes, for instance [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, definitely worth a look without --debug [11:06] Xantor Welesa: hmm good plan, I'll setup a mono region under windows tomorrow orso [11:06] Charles Krinkeb: Actually, .... the last two days I have been studying the startup. Both WP and LP start out at 200-250, then this region climbs to 600 after all the scripts load. [11:06] You: yea we havent tested the no debug yet [11:06] Neas Bade: and how often the byte arrays are garbage collected [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: mono on windows too [11:06] Xantor Welesa: so we can test both ways [11:06] You: ok makes sense [11:06] You: i just still felt like i was missing something [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, perhaps mono allocates memory differentky for all those dlls? [11:06] You: not trying to kick a dead horse [11:07] Xantor Welesa: if we find out what's causing it we can look towards fixing it [11:07]  Neas Bade: I think the real issue is that some of the basic structures end up taking up more space on mono because they didn't bother to size optimize them [11:07] Charles Krinkeb: not at all, Nebadon. You are one of the most highly respected members of this community and your opinion is very important. [11:07] You: thanks charles :D [11:07] Neas Bade: +1 :) [11:07]  Xantor Welesa: +1.5 :) [11:07] Teravus Ousley: yay, Nebadon, [11:07] You: lol [11:07] Charles Krinkeb: I'll even go so far as to say that if Nebadon says something is working, one can take that to the bank. [11:07] You: is my skull blushing [11:08] Dyne Talamasca: heh [11:08] Neas Bade: anyway, as we go forward, I think we'll sourt out some ways to be smarter there [11:08] Charles Krinkeb: Nebadon, look at the 2 notes I put on Mantis#1522. [11:08] Neas Bade: but, for right now, I think we shouldn't worry about it too much. I think the massive instability here was largely due to running out of real memory [11:08] You: i saw them thank you [11:09] Charles Krinkeb: I really mean that. [11:09] You: yea i agree sdague [11:09] You: dipping into swap doesnt help [11:09] Xantor Welesa: swap = death [11:09] Neas Bade: yep [11:09] Frank Corsi: on myt servers running windows they range from 460mb - 780 mb 10-15 regions on each [11:09] You: same here [11:09] You: i have a server with 25 regions [11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Certainly, there are memory problems. I admit to holding it together with duct tape. And it is fragile. But, it is the most highly trafficked region and there is a lot to learn by studying this plaza. [11:10] You: total consumption is around 850 meg [11:10] Neas Bade: I also think that .net does vm memory sharing [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yes [11:10] Neas Bade: so you don't take multipliers for each new env [11:10] Frank Corsi: I have one server using 970 mb has 99 regions of water sims [11:10] You: can that be achieved in mono? [11:10] Charles Krinkeb: I also admit to shutting off "Lbsa Plaza" for this meeting. [11:10] Neas Bade: not in the short term [11:10] You: k, bummer [11:11] Neas Bade: we should try to get more active with the mono guys, as we are stressing the heck out of mono, and would make some good testing for them [11:11] You: i'll have to check with adam, he said he would try to make contact with Novell [11:11] You: hes been real busy this week [11:11] Neas Bade: yep [11:11] You: i'll ask him in a few days [11:11] Neas Bade: cool [11:11] Charles Krinkeb: 14 avatars, 780 VIRT [11:12] You: Does IBM have any one who submits code to the mono project? [11:12] Neas Bade: not at the moment [11:12] You: :D had to ask [11:12] Teravus Ousley: Hi Dahlia :D [11:12] Charles Krinkeb: If we were to turn on heavy duty particle rezzing and moving lots of prims around, and downloading textures, we would probably add 300-400MBytes to the memory footprint. [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [11:13]  Charles Krinkeb: 15 avatars, 784 VIRT [11:13]  You: hello Dahlia [11:13]  Neas Bade: I think particles should be low memory for the server [11:13]  Dahlia Trimble: new chair? [11:13]  You: hehe yea [11:13]  Neas Bade: though textures are probably a big cause [11:13]  Charles Krinkeb: Its an "Electric Chair" [11:13]  You: actually this is the unfnished one [11:13]  You: i never took a copy of the final [11:13]  Neas Bade: mel and I were talking about better cache modules the other day [11:13]  Neas Bade: I suspect that will be part of our way forward [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: textures are usually fairly benign unles sthere's a lot of really big stuff [11:14]  You: nice [11:14]  Dahlia Trimble is overcached [11:14]  You: I can say [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect scripts in the dot net engine are very memory consuming on linux [11:14]  You: while im not 100% happy with xengine yet [11:14] You: at 1st glance [11:14] You: memory consumption is way lower [11:14] Neas Bade: yeh, mel did a good job stripping out non require assemblies [11:14] You: between 50% and 10% lower [11:14] Charles Krinkeb: Let me ask you all. Should we move Wright Plaza to the xengine or leave it as the default? Keeping in mind that dotnetengine is our OpenSim.ini.example default. [11:15] Xantor Welesa: yeah dot net pulls in a lot of stuff it doesn't necessarily need to, but I'm sure mel and tedd will figure out a nice merger [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: what does xengine doa/ [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: *do? [11:15] Neas Bade: it's nice to see all that effort around scripting [11:15] You: its a differnt way of handeling script engine [11:15] Neas Bade: I'd suggest staying on dotnetengine for now [11:15] Dyne Talamasca: script persistence [11:15] You: yes i ran xengine here for 72 hours [11:15] You: last week [11:15] You: i was quite impressed [11:15] You: especially on linux [11:15] Charles Krinkeb: Any objections to staying with the default for this region? [11:15] You: my concerns lie with windows now [11:15] Neas Bade: it looks like lots of people are going to be working in the next couple of weeks towards pulling the engines together [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: whichone has llMessageLinked? lol [11:16] Kurt Stringer: my tests ran overnight on windows [11:16] Neas Bade: so I'd waint on that [11:16] Dyne Talamasca: No objections. What about the other plazas? [11:16] Charles Krinkeb: I agree. Any scriptengine needs to work on both. [11:16] You: yea i actually had a good 24 hours of running [11:16] Teravus Ousley: I think Script persistence is going to be an issue if you want old revision regions talking to new ones most likely [11:16] You: but when i restarted 100% of my scripts were not running [11:16] Neas Bade: charles: no objections from me to stay on default [11:16] You: i need better udnerstanding [11:16] You: i didnt experience that here on linux [11:17] Kurt Stringer: I did have to delete and recreate scripts and pri,s when I enabled xengine [11:17] You: yea [11:17] You: i started fresh [11:17] You: just to be sure [11:17] You: i need to go over it all 10 more times [11:17] You: to be sure [11:17] You: hehe [11:17] Charles Krinkeb: Do we believe our reference scripts on the osgrid.org/forums work on both dotnet and xengine? Anyone up to testing that if the answer is no? [11:18] Neas Bade: that's something that should be worked out. switching scripting should be like switching physics engines, you don't need to rerez stuff [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: restarting the scripts is probably an easy fix [11:18] You: nice [11:18] Dyne Talamasca didn't bother to rerez anything, but then again, isn't heavily script using at the moment [11:18] Teravus Ousley: haha, I'm not sure that's a great reference.. each time you start up the region, everything gets re-created in the physics engine.. [11:18] You: hehe [11:18] You: indeed [11:19] Neas Bade: yeh, but the user doesn't need to do anything :) [11:19]  You: but yea thats true also [11:19]  Kurt Stringer: I wish I could pitch some of the other stuff that is sucking up all my time right now, I'll do what I can to help pull them together [11:19]  Charles Krinkeb: Not to be a PITA, but bringing new folks into the project has been asking them to add LSL functions to Common/LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs and one of our 0.6 goals is completing the LSL subroutines in Common/LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs [11:19]  Teravus Ousley: yes, no user intervention required.. unless of course you want to have physical prim in a region where it isn't allowed. [11:19]  You: Question Charles [11:20]  Teravus Ousley spotted nebadon's unlink hax [11:20]  You: do we have a comprehensive list of what is not done yet? [11:20]  Charles Krinkeb: Anyone that wishes to help flesh out the remaining LSL functions should study Common/LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs [11:20]  Kurt Stringer: Charles - agreed, only one LSL implementation is needed [11:20] You: the wiki seems dated at times [11:20] Teravus Ousley: llRezAtRoot isn't done.. :D [11:20] You: im not sure its to be trusted for LSL functions or not [11:20] Charles Krinkeb: It is a matter of looking for the string "not implemented" in LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs [11:20]  You: ok [11:20]  Dyne Talamasca sucks at C#, but can look it over later tonight [11:20] Charles Krinkeb: The list is getting smaller. [11:20] You: yea you like taht one Ter [11:20] You: me making more work for you :P [11:21] Kurt Stringer: the wiki is fairly current, its on my todo list [11:21] You: thanks Kurt [11:21] Xantor Welesa: most glaring missing is the physics / vehicle stuff, rest is pretty much nearing feature complete [11:21] Teravus Ousley: haha, no it's good because it distracts me from doing linked prim the *right* way in the physics engine.. [11:21] You: i do my best on the wiki [11:21] You: but i cant keep up [11:21]  Kurt Stringer: Charles, not implemented is not being used correctly- but its close [11:21] Charles Krinkeb: Nebadon. You work harder then anyone else and I cant keep up with you. [11:21] You: lol [11:22] You: i'll sleep when im dead [11:22] Dyne Talamasca: :) [11:22]  Dyne Talamasca will be dead without sleep [11:22]  Xantor Welesa: hence the skull fascination [11:22]  Teravus Ousley: hah, yes. I do need to sleep to get math right [11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:22]  Charles Krinkeb: I am hoping to get the balance of the LSL functions at least implemeted somewhat in LSL_BuiltIn_Commands.cs. Thats one of the key 0.6 goals. [11:22]  Teravus Ousley: !sleep + math = explosions [11:22]  Neas Bade: Ter, so, on the link stuff. I'm kind of wondering if SOG has outlived it's usefulness. I've been thinking about parent referencing with SOP [11:23]  Neas Bade: not in the real near term, but just pondering that approach [11:23]  You: nothing worse than "SOG"gy code [11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: it is if you're making nukes [11:23]  Kurt Stringer:  [11:23]  You: heh [11:23]  Xantor Welesa consults the GPLed TLA FAQ [11:23]  Dyne Talamasca: Scene OBject Group :) [11:23] Dyne Talamasca assumes, anyway [11:23] Neas Bade: the way we do link sets today [11:24] You: ok [11:24]  Teravus Ousley: In a way, I like SOG, in another way, I don' [11:24] You: i have another thing that no ones talking about [11:24] You: Zombies [11:24] You: its night of the living dead grid [11:24] Dyne Talamasca shambles [11:24] Teravus Ousley: tso I'm sort of torn about SOG/SOP [11:24] You: zombies everywhere [11:24] Charles Krinkeb: +1 Nebadon. [11:24] You: Teleporting creates zombies [11:24] Teravus Ousley: haha, yes zombi' grid! [11:24] You: crossing borders does [11:24] Dahlia Trimble: is that why i see my neighbor's avatar floating in my region? [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: what do oyou like about SOG? [11:24] Neas Bade: oh, you mean the visible child agents? [11:24] You: yes [11:24] You: not only visible sean [11:25] You: but moving too [11:25] You: arms moving [11:25] Charles Krinkeb: Could these zombies exacerbate our memory problems?? [11:25] You: legs moving [11:25] Neas Bade: yep [11:25] You: fixed in place [11:25] Dyne Talamasca: located where the user teleported from [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: I dont see them move, they are always flaoting at 128,128 [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: *floating [11:25] Teravus Ousley: mostly, I like that there's one definate place to go for stuff about the overall group of stuff. [11:25] Dyne Talamasca: I've seen them move, or at least change pose [11:25] Neas Bade: oh, so the teleport ones I didn't know abouyt [11:25] You: yea [11:25] Dahlia Trimble: the pose changes [11:25] You: teleport ones show up about 20 minutes after a teleport [11:25] You: the avatar reapoears [11:25] Neas Bade: interesting [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: tearvus: that is true [11:25] You: where he was when he teleported [11:25] You: he or she [11:25] You: sorry ladies [11:25] You: :D [11:25] Teravus Ousley: .. Without that, the root part would have to contain the group's minmax method and all that [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: perhaps it just needs some tidying up [11:26]  Neas Bade: Ter, yeh, we could do it as a property, and cache it [11:26]  Dyne Talamasca: I've ended up talking to zombies a few times [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: both sog and sop seem way too big (and probably shouldn't be partialed with inventory stuff) [11:26] You: yea me too [11:26] You: good 2-3 minute converstaion [11:26] You: before im talking to myself [11:26] Teravus Ousley: haha, yes, Neas loves partial classes. [11:26] You: i realize [11:26] Hiro Protagonist: 'Sup y'all [11:27] You: hola senoir [11:27] Neas Bade ... must ... kill ... partials [11:27] Teravus Ousley: he has this big partial class stick that he pulls out and whacks people with. [11:27] Neas Bade: and eat brains [11:27] Charles Krinkeb: Yes, partial classes for xengine. [11:27] Dyne Talamasca: "Why isn't Hiro responding ... oh ... wait." "Prriiiiiimmmmms" [11:27] You: heheh [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, I may hve seen the error of my ways, I do feel a bit unpartial to partials [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: hello hiro [11:27] Dyne Talamasca: Speaking of, hey Hiro [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: Hiyas :D [11:27] Neas Bade: I think partials exacerbate an issue [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: sorry to be so late, got the kids home for the summer [11:27] Neas Bade: and make people think that nothing is wrong with 8KLOC classes as long as they are in multiple files [11:27] Charles Krinkeb: Now that we have assigned all the action items to Hiro, we can all go home. [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: all the days pretty much start to blend into one lol [11:28] You: he [11:28]  You: heh [11:28] Dyne Talamasca: heh [11:28] Hiro Protagonist: do I get to migrate us to the new server?? [11:28] Charles Krinkeb: not yet. Patience, please. [11:28] Neas Bade: so, on the zombie front, that's got to be not marking things as child agents correctly [11:28] You: yea i have a feeling we are generating alot of network traffic [11:28] Neas Bade: or that marking them isn't sending the right agent remove packet [11:28] You: with the zombie issue [11:28] Teravus Ousley: well, all you need is one SendFull Avatar update to make a zombie [11:28] Teravus Ousley: .. on a child agent. [11:28] You: seems odd they move [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: in re: the zombies, I noted that the client shows them as child agents, but the region does not [11:29] You: interesting [11:29] Xantor Welesa: child agents also seem to get appearance update info [11:29] Neas Bade: not really, once they are alive, the client does the superimpose of animation on all instances [11:29] Charles Krinkeb: 15 avatars, 789 VIRT [11:29] You: ok but can taht be using more memory in neighbor regions [11:29] Neas Bade: yep, that's because the client does the superimposing [11:29] You: than needed ? [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: its funny to watch them if there are more than one and they are experimenting with poses [11:30] You: yea [11:30] Hiro Protagonist: yeah they start looking like shiva lols [11:30] You: mutating zombie clusters [11:30] Neas Bade: yep :) [11:30]  Charles Krinkeb: What would happen if an estate manager tried to teleport a zombie home? [11:30]  Daxxon Kinoc: JCC TO CK and FC still havent rezzed in for me yet (still fuzzy ghost thingies) [11:30]  Teravus Ousley: Just one 'oops' update is all it takes to make a zombie [11:30]  You: they dont seem to regsiter [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: interesting question [11:30]  You: i tried that [11:30]  Neas Bade: the zombies are just ghosts [11:30]  Dyne Talamasca: The gates of hell would be opened. Grim zombie prims everywhere [11:30]  You: hehe [11:31]  Dyne Talamasca: grim, green [11:31]  Charles Krinkeb: A new way to grief? [11:31]  Neas Bade: it means that at some point we accidentally sent a "here is this agent" package with that location on a child region [11:31]  Neas Bade: until you log out, your client will remember the agent was there [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: typically they happen when someone teleports out of the region [11:31] Neas Bade: and it will apply the updates to it that are avatar related, as the client does that overlay [11:31] Dyne Talamasca: I've logged IN and seen zombies. [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: though I *did* see one last night when I know the avie had logged off [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm still a ghost to myself too [11:32] Teravus Ousley: I see grey people [11:32] Neas Bade: that's probably because we've been bad and not downgraded to child status [11:32] Dahlia Trimble: is it related to the big white hole I teleport into when I teleport home? [11:32] Hiro Protagonist: stay frosty guys, we almost have enough data to pin this down [11:32] Hiro Protagonist: (gals, sorry) [11:32] Teravus Ousley: phrosty [11:32] Dyne Talamasca: The first zombie I saw was Hiro. Later went to Lbsa and he was there, active. But he had logged in the meantime, apparently [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm zombies, grey people - this place is creepy [11:33] You: hehe [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: yeah, I saw Dyne log in and 'resume' his ghost avatar [11:33] Teravus Ousley: should you worry when the skull head is in front of you? [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: the big white hole? [11:33] Dahlia Trimble: where my island should be [11:33]  Dyne Talamasca: Yesterday, I logged in and saw zombie hiro in SP Plaza, even though I wasn't there when he had been in region, or indeed in SP all day up to that point [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that skull is creeping me out [11:33] You: i have had that happen also [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I like mine skin covered [11:33] You: hehe [11:33] Neas Bade: :) [11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: I like the skull ;) [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: ah I see - I thought that was some 'returning to heaven' joke [11:34] You: hehe [11:34] You: ive had that happen a few times also [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: no, its like my region doesnt render [11:34] Dahlia Trimble: but the surrounding ones do [11:34]  You: teleport home, and its blank, but you can see nieghbor regions, but yoru invisible and can only fly staight up or down [11:34] Teravus Ousley: that's actually from a song by, They Might be Giants. "Should you worry when the skull head is in front of you, or is it worse because it's always waiting where your eyes don't go" [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: that's something I see if I'm suffering an unexpected bandwidth deficit [11:34] Dyne Talamasca: There's still a bit of weirdness with terraforming. Yesterday I managed to break SP Plaza by trying to flatten a section. [11:35] Neas Bade: ok, I need to drop shortly. But it's nice to see WP chugging along so well at the moment [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: Oh I see [11:35] Dahlia Trimble: I dont think it would be a bandwidth defecit because the region is on the same local lan my viewer is [11:35]  Hiro Protagonist: as a re mine, Dahl ;) [11:36]  Daxxon Kinoc: does same machine count as same lan ? [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I guess you know about the whole 'not seeing the bandwidth slider too high in the client' business? [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: Has anyone noticed... yay no m0r duplicated chat? [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: in fact, my client actually runs on the same box with my regions [11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: ya I set mine at 256 [11:36]  You: yea [11:36]  You: that is gone for me Ter [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist: in fact, my client actually runs on the same box with my regions [11:36]  You: havent seen it since your fix [11:36]  Hiro Protagonist winks [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: keep fingas crossed [11:36]  You: lol [11:36]  You: that was funny hiro [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: they weren't paying attention lols [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey wonders if he should put in a random switch to occassionally duplicate chat, just for the grins [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:37] Dyne Talamasca: :) [11:37]  Daxxon Kinoc: xantor is a grey to me [11:37]  You: he needs to rebake [11:37]  Teravus Ousley: maybe it should duplicate all the prim and rotate it 90 degrees about each axis [11:37]  Dahlia Trimble: Xantor and Chris are grey to me [11:37]  You: CTRL+ALT+R [11:37]  You: will fix your greyness [11:37]  You: lol [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: heh [11:38]  You: there now justin looks right [11:38]  You: :P [11:38]  Teravus Ousley: Justin went from Grey to black! [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, now I feel good [11:38]  Kurt Stringer: right? [11:38]  You: hehe [11:38]  Dyne Talamasca: heh [11:38]  You: hes always black [11:38]  Daxxon Kinoc: yep, JCC rezzed in [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: One day, I shall be of many colours [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: many shall weep on that day [11:38]  Kurt Stringer: yeah, but we like him anyway [11:38]  You: heeh [11:38] Teravus Ousley: haha [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: so, what'd I miss, besides being elected president of the welcoming comitte? [11:39] You: yea im suprised lindens havent fixed that bug yet [11:39] You: its going on 2 years [11:39] Teravus Ousley: Hiro: we talked about stuff. [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: lots of stuff [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: summary? [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: hehee Im in 2 office hours at once [11:39] Teravus Ousley: Nebadon's Electric chair... which is only half finished [11:40] You: heh [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: kk [11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: you know his skull lights upo and flashes if you plug him in [11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: is that really an electric chair? [11:40] You: hehe no [11:40]  Hiro Protagonist: what else lols? [11:40] Daxxon Kinoc: its made out of virtual electrons [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: daxxon: ha, that's true [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: anything of substance? or just the usual freeform comedy show? [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: it really is electric, as are we all [11:41] Teravus Ousley: yes, I yeald to your rationaliztion skills Daxxon [11:41] Kurt Stringer: script engines, databases, etc [11:41] You: we talked about memory situation in linux [11:41] Xantor Welesa: 3am gotta go :) [11:41]  You: ok Xantor, good seeing you [11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: tc :) [11:41] Daxxon Kinoc: enjoy [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: we talked about deleting all the code and starting again [11:41] Kurt Stringer: lol [11:41] Teravus Ousley: Hmm.. I actually have to make a phone call.. so [11:41] Commodore Amiga waves [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: starting over may not be a bad idea, but we should keep this code for reference [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: bye teravus [11:42] Dahlia Trimble teleports into the great white void... bye all :) [11:42] Hiro Protagonist: see ya Ter [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: nah, if we trash it completely, we won't be tempted to go back [11:42]  Daxxon Kinoc: nice prototype ... [11:42]  Hiro Protagonist: hell, we might need it to come back to [11:42]  Hiro Protagonist hates to burn bridges [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: actually [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: I dont think it's quite time to do that yet [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: man, with that attitude we'll never do the rewrite? [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: it would be too much like giving up [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay, so we can wait until we're almost finished, and then delete it all! [11:43]  Hiro Protagonist: and I dont think we've quite hit the limits yet [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: just for the sheer bravado of it, it'll be brilliant! [11:44]  Daxxon Kinoc: do I detect "pave the earth" vs. "destroy earth" themes ? [11:44]  You: anything else we forgot? [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: not at all [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: early choices were of necesity made in the dark [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: in coming this far, a certain investment has been made in time and effrot that is not to be dismissed lightly [11:45] BlueWall Slade is Offline [11:45] Daxxon Kinoc: yea, you don't know whats important untilll you have one [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: precisely [11:45] You: heh [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: man, I am joking you know [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: and it does work quite well on windows [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: I am not Justin [11:45] Kurt Stringer: lol [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: We only need to delete half of it [11:45]  You: im going to test later Mono on Windows [11:45] Hiro Protagonist: rofl [11:45] You: i'll throw up a test region [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: I think some folks have done that before, but I dont know how it worked out [11:46] You: i did before long ago [11:46] You: when opensim didnt work to well [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I'm going to return my sorry black ass to the real world [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: I think it would be very productive to do so in light of what we've learned, and what we think we've learned [11:46] You: heh [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks [11:46] Kurt Stringer: y, I'll contine debuggin/testing xengine [11:46] You: later justin [11:46] Frank Corsi: cya [11:46] Kurt Stringer: bye justin [11:46] Hiro Protagonist: tc Justin [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [11:47] Kurt Stringer: me too, outta here - bye all... [11:47] Neas Bade is Offline [11:47] You: ok Kurt thanks [11:47] Dyne Talamasca will be in Zero's office hour for a bit [11:47] You: thanks everyone [11:47] You: i'll post the chat log on wiki [11:47] Hiro Protagonist: droppin like flies [11:47] Chris D: Just went back to Fermi and evry Avatar at WP was a zombie in Fermi !!