Chat log from the meeting on 2008-07-21

[10:58] Bill Humphries: Yes.

[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hey shenlei!

[10:58] Bill Humphries: Hey Dahlia, Charles.

[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia, adam, bill, samuel

[10:58] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)

[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: nice to see you Charles

[10:58] Adam Frisby: Hey guys

[10:59] Dahlia Trimble quickly does a vanity rebake

[10:59] You: morning.

[10:59] You: Nice dress, Shenlei

[10:59] Shenlei Winkler blinks....

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler: hi guys

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler: Thanks Charles

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)

[11:00] You: you guys and gals are shaming me out of my "ruth state"

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler: Hi Justin, it's nice to see you again

[11:00] Strawberry Fride: hi everyone :)

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler grins ruthlessly

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler: good

[11:00] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: well, me in my poor grey/black ruthed state

[11:00] Bill Humphries: Ah, rebaked.

[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: graphics card issues

[11:00] Shenlei Winkler: I lost some of my hair in inventory somewhere. I'm sulking.

[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia, strawberry

[11:00] You: being a nerd, I just barely get my pants and shirt on in the morning.

[11:01] Strawberry Fride: most of you haven't rezzed in any form for me yet - getting disembodied voices :)

[11:01] Shenlei Winkler: they make GR animals for that you know

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting

[11:01] Dahlia Trimble: I cant see Shenlei's dress, she looks like a cloud :(

[11:01] Shenlei Winkler: Match the gorilla to the gorilla

[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: I can see her dress, though there's a lot of grey....

[11:01] Shenlei Winkler: I'm moving content over...or trying

[11:01] Bill Humphries: She's wearing the mother of all crinolines with that dress.

[11:01] You: Shall we start or wait another minute?

[11:02] Shenlei Winkler: Ballgowns are the epitome of virtual worlds, Bill

[11:02] Bill Humphries: No argument there.

[11:02] You: Maybe I need a ball gown sometime so I can keep up.

[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, my graphics card actually appears to be playing ball today

[11:02] Strawberry Fride: can still only see 4 avatars - though plenty more dots on minimap

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, lots more people than that here sf

[11:03] Strawberry Fride: I guessed as much :)

[11:03] Bill Humphries: Well, at some point, maybe Hya will open a branch out here.

[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: everyone is grey but Bluewall and Strawberry

[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: and Bill

[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, we do seem to have avatar appearance issues still.....

[11:04] Strawberry Fride: I can see Dahlia (with clothes), Chris D (also with clothes) and a grey Monk and a grey Adam :)

[11:04] You: I see lots of "AgentHeightWidth" and "MapItemRequest" packets so the sim is loading a bit.

[11:04] Bill Humphries: maybe hitting rebake?

[11:04] Shenlei Winkler: Persistence is getting better

[11:04] Chris D was worried he might be naked

[11:04] You: Adam? Are you here or a zombie?

[11:04] Shenlei Winkler: I teleported today and did not lose my hair

[11:04] Strawberry Fride: my hair on my sim is remarkably resilient

[11:04] You: great, Shenlei

[11:05] Strawberry Fride: especially since we added that missing method to SQL Server. No wonder it wasn't working so well :)

[11:05] Strawberry Fride: nothing in the Agents table at all before Sunday

[11:05] You: Lets try to get started. I think the first item of business is to chat with our LL colleagues and discuss interop issues.

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: mssql tends to lag in opensim

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: strawberry: good stuff

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hey mic

[11:06] Strawberry Fride: mssql not so much any more - whizzy these days

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hi neas

[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean in terms of functionality

[11:06] Bill Humphries: okay, Tess and Greg are coming, if you have another item you can do first

[11:06] Strawberry Fride: :)

[11:06] You: Morning, Neas, Mic.

[11:06] Mic Bowman: morning all

[11:07] Neas Bade: hey all

[11:07] Monk Zymurgy: g'morning

[11:07] You: Ready to get started?

[11:07] Neas Bade: charles, can you turn on build for me?

[11:07] Neas Bade: I want to generate the sit bug test case

[11:08] Adam Frisby: That was weeird

[11:08] Adam Frisby: Anyway

[11:09] Adam Frisby: I have a slight announcement for these hours - can someone add a note on the agenda for me?

[11:09] You: Neas. You are an estate manager just like me and I just rezzed a box.

[11:09] Dahlia Trimble: slight?

[11:09] Neas Bade: yeh, no dice

[11:09] Adam Frisby: Oh, I totally need estate manager privilidges. >_>

[11:09] Strawberry Fride: oo - now I see people! flew into adjacent region and back :) Shenlei - fab outfit!

[11:09] Neas Bade: oh, never mind

[11:10] Shenlei Winkler grins

[11:10] Neas Bade: my build button is just greyed out

[11:10] Shenlei Winkler: Thanks

[11:10] Neas Bade: ok, I'm going to go build this a little ways away

[11:10] Mic Bowman: brb

[11:10] Neas Bade: back shortly

[11:10] You: Adam, Neas. The estate stuff appears to be a bit fubar lately.

[11:11] Zha Ewry: Hah. Shen is a ruth to me

[11:11] Zha Ewry: What a fate

[11:11] Shenlei Winkler: Darling, I can haz hair

[11:11] Shenlei Winkler smiles

[11:11] Adam Frisby: Hehe

[11:11] Zha Ewry: No

[11:11] Zha Ewry: You can haz particle cloud

[11:11] Strawberry Fride: lol

[11:11] You: Lets get going. Sorry about the estate stuff, Neas. I'll have Nebadon look at it a little later. I dont want to loose our hour.

[11:11] G2 Proto: :) hello all

[11:11] Shenlei Winkler: well, there are worse things...+

[11:11] Primitive: Script running

[11:12] You: Lets let Adam go first. Adam, you have the floor.

[11:12] Adam Frisby: Alright, I have shinies.

[11:12] Adam Frisby: Zha, you're going to appreciate this.

[11:12] Dahlia Trimble: shinies? o.O

[11:12] You: Somebody hit you in the eye?

[11:12] Adam Frisby: Myself and Mike just finished setting up forge.opensimulator.org -- it's a install of GForge, which is Source-forge like software. It's for people who are working on opensim related projects, to get hosting and SVN access for it

[11:13] Adam Frisby: Things like say the Perl Gridservers, the ASP.NET gridservers, Zha's interop patches, etc can all be hosted there

[11:13] Adam Frisby: We can make projects, you get mailing lists, bug trackers, etc all included plus SVN hosting (looks like we have Hg and Git too)

[11:13] BlueWall Slade: awesome!

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: +1 Adam

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: Hi All :D

[11:13] Zha Ewry: Cool

[11:13] Zha Ewry: Better still, when the pacth isn't ugly as sin

[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: we need to get Jeroen's 'moo' on there too

[11:14] You: How do we handle keeping the patches in sync with the opensim svn?

[11:14] Dahlia Trimble: good question Charles

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: nice

[11:14] Adam Frisby: Well, doing full opensim clones probably isnt the intent of hosting it there, but I imagine just producing .patches based on SVN revisions might be the way to go.

[11:14] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya WHump :)

[11:14] You: Hiro. Can you figure out how to set Neas so he can build and add Adam to estate managers. I cant tell if it is broken or not.

[11:14] Adam Frisby: In any case, it should help - I'm going to throw up a lot of the internal DTL code onto it so you can play with some of our internal stuff. Anyone else is free to register projects, etc.

[11:15] Adam Frisby: We've got a 15 user limit right now, but that will be removed in a day or two when we get the proper OSS license reg'd.

[11:15] Hiro Protagonist: sure thing Charles one sec

[11:15] Bill Humphries: Sorry about that, I lost my presense.

[11:15] You: No problem, Bill. Anything else, Adam? Any questions for Adam?

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: didn't appear to be directly a server issue

[11:15] G2 Proto: its very cool thanks Adam

[11:15] Bill Humphries: What was the topic?

[11:16] Hiro Protagonist: Ckrinke, need to relog as plaza builder

[11:16] You: [11:12] Adam Frisby: Myself and Mike just finished setting up forge.opensimulator.org -- it's a install of GForge, which is Source-forge like software. It's for people who are working on opensim related projects, to get hosting and SVN access for it

[11:16] Tao Takashi: somehow I seem to be underwater and I cannot see myself ...

[11:16] You: k, Hiro

[11:16] Hiro Protagonist: also the estate managers list for this region is impacted; I'll have to purge a few non-participants

[11:16] You: [11:13] Adam Frisby: Things like say the Perl Gridservers, the ASP.NET gridservers, Zha's interop patches, etc can all be hosted there

[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: Thanks Adam :)

[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: we still have these login issues I see...

[11:16] You: Anything else, Adam? Any questions for Adam?

[11:16] Bill Humphries: okay, thanks for catching me back up

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: are there any criteria for getting hosting?

[11:17] Neas Bade: btw, this is the log off doom. It has funny effects if people log in later as to what you look like. Fun bugs in the sit code

[11:17] Neas Bade: btw, Adam, +1 for setting up gforge

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: apart from that you have code related to opensim?

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: don't log off is you're on the log of doom?

[11:18] You: Lets give Bill the floor and Adam can chime in if there is more, or anyone can ask questions about anything we previously talked about.

[11:18] Adam Frisby: Justin: no criteria other than it's somewhat opensim related.

[11:18] Adam Frisby: Projects have to be approved by a site admin (opensim devs)

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: cool :)

[11:18] Neas Bade: Adam, I thought there was a free version of gforge, not just the commercial version. Or did they stop doing that?

[11:19] Plaza Builder: Ok Neas

[11:19] Adam Frisby: Neas: The free version is crippled.

[11:19] Adam Frisby: Majorly, so we're applying for the full F/OSS one.

[11:19] Plaza Builder: if you select 'Advanced->View Admin Options' it should enable your estate powers

[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: who is Plaza Builder today?

[11:20] Plaza Builder: Hiro, but only temproarily

[11:20] Neas Bade: Plaza, no, it's working for me

[11:20] Plaza Builder: cool

[11:20] Neas Bade: I didn't realize the build button would stay greyed out

[11:20] Neas Bade: that's something we should change

[11:20] Plaza Builder: Ahhhh

[11:20] Neas Bade: but it's a minor bug

[11:20] Plaza Builder: yup

[11:20] Neas Bade: sorry, my confusion

[11:20] Plaza Builder: Charles, what all was it you asked me to do? Neas, and...

[11:21] Bill Humphries: Okay, Tess and Zha are here, so I can go ahead if you all are ready.

[11:21] You: Adam as estate manager. Gryc might have to go off the list.

[11:21] You: Please go ahead, Bill.

[11:21] Plaza Builder: Gryc is off, as are Babble and Pablo

[11:21] Plaza Builder: they can be readded later if need be

[11:21] You: k, Hiro

[11:21] Bill Humphries: Okay, so next week, the 31st, we're kicking off the Open Grid Protocol Beta Program.

[11:21] Adam Frisby: Charles: we should be able to make it so there's multiple admins.

[11:22] Adam Frisby: (FYI: Mike just got the F/OSS license then, he's installing now)

[11:22] Tao Takashi: now this looks better. Hello :)

[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Tao

[11:22] Bill Humphries: As you may know, Zha Ewry developed a patch for OpenSim that enables the protocols for teleport.

[11:22] G2 Proto: hey Tao

[11:22] Plaza Builder: Ok Adam you are set sir

[11:22] Plaza Builder: brb w/Hiro

[11:22] Zha Ewry: FFor some epsilon, around the phrase enables

[11:23] Bill Humphries: At the moment, we need to do a little more work to get Zha's changes in sync with our agent domain.

[11:23] Tao Takashi: I should have tried to login to here earlier to be here in time ...

[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: is the current interop patch on mantis up to date?

[11:23] Zha Ewry: I should have a new on to offer in a day or so

[11:24] Zha Ewry: Among other things, catching up to the current Linden Beta grid

[11:24] Zha Ewry: and.. somewhat better integrated, less horrible

[11:24] Bill Humphries: But what I'm hoping to come out of here with is a plan for people participating in the beta to either be able to build OpenSim out of top of trunk with OGP support, or a well-defined way to get it patched with OGP support.

[11:24] G2 Proto: great!

[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: Zha, is it still the case that applying the patch disrupts the current region login ops?

[11:25] Hiro Protagonist: lol

[11:25] Adam Frisby: >_> <_<

[11:25] Hiro Protagonist: Adam

[11:25] Strawberry Fride: :)

[11:25] Zha Ewry: Less so, but yes

[11:25] You:

[11:25] Zha Ewry: Mostly in the handles

[11:25] Bill Humphries: I saw the blue card, LOL.

[11:25] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:25] Zha Ewry: Once we sort out the current prtocol update, I want to look at that

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, the best thing right now might be just for people to apply the patch

[11:26] Zha Ewry: I think, and this is problematic, for the longer term story

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: or for some kind soul to supply a build with it pre-applied

[11:26] Bill Humphries: So that would be a blocker, then, alright.

[11:26] Hiro Protagonist: Justin, you are in color mate ;)

[11:26] Dahlia Trimble: I have a build with it applied

[11:26] Tao Takashi: btw, it would be great if the protocol docs would be updated or discussion about changes would go about some mailing list so I can keep up with my agent domain implementation. not sure if that's possible

[11:26] Zha Ewry: that you won't be able to login, via the normal path, and teleport, because you won't be on the agent domain correctly

[11:26] You: So, Bill. Is your understanding that the interop is teleporting to an OpenSim standalone region from the betagrid and not to a region attached to OSGrid?

[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: I know - it's wierd - there's nothing different on my machine :)

[11:27] Bill Humphries: Charles, at the moment, yes. But I think teleporting to a grid enabled sim would be a great next step in the beta.

[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: hrmmm

[11:28] Zha Ewry: I clearly want to get this synced with the full grid version

[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: I guess I'll wait for phase 2 then

[11:28] Zha Ewry: Part of that is going to be sorting out handles

[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: I dont have the resources to set up a standalone

[11:28] Neas Bade: so, that means proper agent domain handoff, right?

[11:28] Zha Ewry: (my one attempt to patch that way, was a nightmare)

[11:28] Neas Bade: because I don't think we want osgrid accounts to be dependant on SL accounts

[11:29] Bill Humphries: Neas, this is just a beta.

[11:29] Neas Bade: most people running grids want seperate account controls

[11:29] Neas Bade: Bill, yeh, I understand that :)

[11:29] Tao Takashi: I would more call it alpha ;-)

[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: agent domain handoff is going to be considerably more complicated I imagine

[11:29] Neas Bade: but if we're trying for real grid interop, it seems like doing it early would be a good thing

[11:29] You: For, now it is fair to say that a common username could be used so we dont have to open the openid/liveid/authorization bit yet.

[11:29] Zha Ewry: I think there is a very legitimate concern, in not handling the AD list

[11:29] Zha Ewry: (bit)

[11:30] Zha Ewry: too many SL style meetings, my typoing dies

[11:30] Neas Bade: :)

[11:30] Zha Ewry: There are two, issues, I think, one is the agent domain code, the other, woudl be the client handling the hand off

[11:31] You: Well, I dont want to derail any of the efforts, so I'll stand in the background a bit, and OSGrid is happy to support this effort when appropriate for LL's plans.

[11:32] You: Although one has to understand that the notion of "interop" implies grid<-->grid, both betagrid<->OpenSimGrid *and* OpenSimGrid<->OpenSimGrid

[11:32] Bill Humphries: Okay, so for the short term, if we could host the patch on adam's gforge, until we can work through the issues with merging that would be good. And I can see if we can provide a precompiled mono .exe as well.

[11:32] Adam Frisby: Go ahead - if you make the project right now, I can approve it.

[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: couldnt interop also include grid<->standalone?

[11:33] Adam Frisby: (I'll also add the other opensim admins to the site admins if they care to register accounts. hehe.)

[11:33] Tao Takashi: I hope the patch will then also be published

[11:33] Neas Bade: Dahlia, I think so

[11:33] You: We can run a mono .exe on the OSGrid gridserver as long as both LL and the core developers agree.

[11:33] Tess Linden: Interop means that the code implements against the protocol, and any code taht runs against the protocol should interoperate with each other

[11:33] Bill Humphries: Yes, and that's where, given the time left before the beta starts, where we'll start from.

[11:33] Digi Fly: hi

[11:33] Hiro Protagonist: I think it should also support standalone as well; however, it's important to note, that there is almost no representation of that use case on osgrid

[11:33] Zha Ewry: Well, baring opermisions and all

[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: tao: you mean the zha's existing work? that is already out there

[11:34] Neas Bade: the issue on the opensim side is that we've got to address moving between standalone and grid instances relatively shortly, especially because there is no URL bar in the client

[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: you mean local assets?

[11:34] Tess Linden: we've got code thats working against a protocol that will allow you to TP between virtual worlds, we're talking about making it easy to iterate on

[11:34] Bill Humphries: A patch that will enable OGP on a standalone grid. With the caveats about no inventory, no baked textures coming over.

[11:34] Neas Bade: and if there is no ability to do agent domain handoff, then that is a real issue

[11:34] You: Ok. This may be an important point then. Are you saying that interop has nothing to do with moving from grid to grid, or sim to sim, but merely that certain code communicates with each other in two internet seperated sites?

[11:34] Tess Linden: Neas: Suzy put in a url bar in the client before she left for vacation

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: Justin: I mean, coming to osgrid to look for people running standalone is, well, a little misdirected

[11:34] Tess Linden: it remembers the last 10 region_urls youve typed in

[11:34] Tao Takashi: Justin: I also mean the changes which are happening now

[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: true :)

[11:35] Neas Bade: Tess, ok, so when does that release in a GA browser? :P)

[11:35] Zha Ewry: Interop is a series of steps, and teleport is only one part

[11:35] Tao Takashi: I have Zha's patch running here on a standalone server

[11:35] Neas Bade: oops sorr for the P, I just meant a smilely

[11:35] You: k. I best start correcting a mis-conception that exists in our users.

[11:35] Neas Bade: Tess, those urls include grid?

[11:35] Zha Ewry: We need to make sure it's all the places where we ahve urls

[11:36] Tess Linden: region_urls identify the region you're rezzing into, could be on any grid

[11:36] Zha Ewry: including AD, Region, and login

[11:36] Tao Takashi: and it would be nicer of course to have a branch instead of a patch which you have to apply

[11:36] paulie Flomar waves

[11:36] Zha Ewry: We really want to make it easy to hop to any of the permuations

[11:36] Zha Ewry: and. ideally, without a logout/login

[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: Hi Paulie

[11:36] Tess Linden: sorry CHarles, whats the misconception?

[11:36] paulie Flomar: Howdeh, everyone. :)

[11:36] BlueWall Slade: stand alone seems a good, safe first step

[11:37] Neas Bade: ok, so when do we get to see that in a release client? As it would be really nice to not need to have all these icon links for different OS instances

[11:37] paulie Flomar: thx, d.

[11:37] Digi Fly: stand alone still the required firts step.

[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hey paulie

[11:37] Tess Linden: thats what the Beta is for, so we can all try it out and work out all the kinks to a ready state

[11:37] Tao Takashi: will this beta client also have some cmdline option to change the agent domain?

[11:37] paulie Flomar: Howdeh, JCC.

[11:37] Neas Bade: right, but the beta client won't do old auth, right?

[11:37] You: The prevalent misconception is that the interop implies a full handoff from betagrid<->OpenSimGrid, both ways, in an arms-length manner. I may have to soften the perceptions in the users a bit.

[11:37] Zha Ewry: I think its in the branch

[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: maybe we need to develop some criteria for including the interop patch into core?

[11:38] Zha Ewry: (the various switches, to select all the bits, if not, it needs to be)

[11:38] Tao Takashi: interop4 I guess

[11:38] Tess Linden: +1 Dahlia

[11:38] You: No problem. I just dont want the users to assume it is further ahead then it is. That adds additional pressure on everyone.

[11:39] Zha Ewry: I think handles, grid, whitelisting, good controls, and cleaner code, would begin to do it

[11:39] You: +1, Zha. Thats about where my thinking starts.

[11:39] Bill Humphries: Zha by grid you mean teleporting into a sim in a grid, or a handoff?

[11:39] Tess Linden: Charles: its not a full handoff because your identity lives with the agent domain, and the agent domain is the second life one, but the opensim one doesn't implement against the protocol yet

[11:39] Zha Ewry: Being able to run in grid mode

[11:39] Bill Humphries: Zha: +1

[11:40] Zha Ewry: Full handoff, I think is another good, but, somewhat seperable

[11:40] Zha Ewry: issue

[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we're really aiming for modules for the protocol stuff if possible

[11:40] Tess Linden: do we need all those things for the Beta?

[11:40] Zha Ewry: We need to be able to do it, so we can have both the various unified and seperable cases

[11:40] Zha Ewry: I think we need all of those to exit beta ;-)

[11:40] TARDIS Wiki-Lith: No wikipedia URL found

[11:41] Tao Takashi: these are the times of perpetual betas though

[11:41] Tess Linden: oh yes, there is so much to do during the Beta, I don't think anybody is arguing that

[11:41] Zha Ewry: I personaly have my own list of horrible things inside my code to fix too

[11:41] You: Its ok. One step at a time is just fine. We will move forward faster that way. I just need to make sure the perceptions are not out of line with reality over the next few months.

[11:42] Zha Ewry: (there's also some discussion we need to have about how we signal how the grids cooperate, so w eknow if we do/don't need a AD handoff

[11:42] Tess Linden: but am I hearing that we don't want to apply the patch to trunk until the Beta is done and we're actually releasing the code?

[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: I would hope sooner Tess

[11:42] Bill Humphries: okay, so I'd propose the plan would be to start a branch with standalone OGP support and add the features Zha mentioned above to that branch.

[11:42] Zha Ewry: When the OpenSim core, thinks its appropriate

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: there really is a philosphical question as to whether it would ever be applied directly to trunk

[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: we may well want to keep protocol code in separate modules

[11:43] Neas Bade: no, I think you are hearing that AD handoff and having grids be able to connect but not be in the same AD is really important

[11:43] Tao Takashi: Justin: wouldn't this be more a question of refactoring the code so these things can be plugins?

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Tao: yep, that's certainly a factor

[11:43] Zha Ewry: A bit of both, I think tao

[11:43] Neas Bade: and something short of that, in which OpenSim is largely just extra land is a lot less interesting to a lot of opensim folks

[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: so we may want to work towards putting the hooks into core so interop can work as a module?

[11:43] TARDIS Wiki-Lith: Ask a question with '???' to get a Wikipedia answer

(maybe). Touch me to get the Wikipedia article used

to provide the answer.

[11:44] You: We also have the issue of OpenSimGrid<->OpenSimGrid interop, so there may be more then one implementation of a similar notion.

[11:44] TARDIS Wiki-Lith: Ask a question with '???' to get a Wikipedia answer

(maybe). Touch me to get the Wikipedia article used

to provide the answer.

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: in which case those plugins may be bundled with a separate OpenSim core kernel rather than being part of that core kernel itself

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: +1

[11:44] You: stop typing three question marks

[11:44] TARDIS Wiki-Lith: Ask a question with '???' to get a Wikipedia answer

(maybe). Touch me to get the Wikipedia article used

to provide the answer.

[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: I think kinic is actually working on the wikilith

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: *knio

[11:45] Zha Ewry: I'd be glad to work with anyoen who wants to

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: pffft

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: KINOC

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: lol

[11:45] Zha Ewry: dive into the modularity bits

[11:45] Tao Takashi: having it on a branch should definitiely make it easier to collaborate

[11:45] paulie Flomar: It was me playin with the wikilith. I'll cut it out. :)

[11:45] Daxxon Kinoc: not i

[11:45] Hiro Protagonist: the thing that concerns me about a branch is that the code there will rapidly go stale

[11:45] You: Thanks for clarifying, Zha, Tess and Bill. I was operating under the misconception that this was a full handoff.

[11:46] Neas Bade: Tao, we shot down the branch idea in core. The opensim code moves too fast and no one really wants to maintain a branch.

[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: I dont see how a branch would have any advantages over a patch set

[11:46] Zha Ewry: So far, I've been able to keep on branch wihtout too much pain

[11:46] Neas Bade: branches in svn is the evil

[11:46] Zha Ewry: and. I'm willing to comit to it

[11:46] Zha Ewry: i mean trunk

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: depends if other people also want to work on that code I think

[11:46] Adam Frisby: Zha: well there's an advantage there to having the seperate project on the forge then - since you can maintain that and release your in-dev code

[11:46] Zha Ewry: I've got the stuff in placet o build and test daily

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: patches aren't very scalable

[11:47] Zha Ewry: One thing I'd think we can do

[11:47] Zha Ewry: is break it into two parts

[11:47] Zha Ewry: the hooks

[11:47] Zha Ewry: and the core functoin

[11:47] Zha Ewry: at which point, we can get 90% of it in trunk

[11:47] Dahlia Trimble: that would help

[11:47] Tao Takashi: well, I usually prefer branches to sending patches forth and back.

[11:47] Zha Ewry: and only have the patch out there

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: zha: that would be cool

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: one thing that concerns me is taht I know that a lot of the packet and stack code is being worked over as we speak

[11:48] Zha Ewry: I don't touch that

[11:48] Bill Humphries: and the core function becomes a module, Zha?

[11:48] Hiro Protagonist: it may well be that the very parts you're depending on being stable will be moving the most quickly

[11:48] Tao Takashi: If Zha works alone on it then ok, but if somebody should join I would see some problem.

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: I think that'slargely orthogonal Hiro

[11:48] Zha Ewry: This is 90%, in parsing/responsinf to the AD

[11:48] Hiro Protagonist bows to more knowlegable heads

[11:48] Hiro Protagonist: just makin' sure folks

[11:48] Zha Ewry: and.. calling back into the guts of the OpenSim world

[11:48] Zha Ewry: (and I'm trying to focus on keepiing it seperate that way)

[11:50] Zha Ewry: (There is some really tricky re-facoring that might imply, at some point, but it would be nice to havbe nayway, seperate out the login, fromt he state updates behind it)

[11:50] You: Adam. I would be most interested in your opinion and guidance.

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Zha: I think we're using you as cheap labour to improve our modularity ;)

[11:50] Adam Frisby: Haha

[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:50] Bill Humphries: okay, I think I'm back.

[11:51] Zha Ewry: That's fine with me

[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: wb :)

[11:51] Adam Frisby: Well, I've talked with Zha about this in person - but I think Zha's onto the right track with having some seperate patches for improving OpenSim's modularity, and the interop functionality.

[11:51] Zha Ewry: When I get the core patch done, I'm willign to sort out other thignds I've noticed. I don't miind making thing bvetter

[11:51] You: Oh Great Existential Wizard, Adam. What would you counsel us on the best way to move forward on the interop patch with maximum happiness and minimal frustration to all.

[11:51] Zha Ewry: That involves good beer and decent fajitas, I think.

[11:52] Adam Frisby: Dont look at me, I'm usually the one breaking things. >_>

[11:52] Tess Linden: Neas I understand your concern that the patch to OpenSim doesn't create an opensim agent domain, but just because we've added coded to make the region domain work against the protcol doesn't prevent anybody else writing code to add an agent domain that works against the protocol too

[11:52] G2 Proto: lol

[11:52] Bill Humphries: So we have an offsite in Austin where we can get good beer and fajita's to has this out? :)

[11:52] Adam Frisby: Tess: I think that does actually raise a valid point here -- is there a OSS project to build a agent domain?

[11:52] Adam Frisby: A reference one that is

[11:52] Neas Bade: no, but it prevents the way we can do grid jump today with just the region <-> client protocol

[11:53] Adam Frisby: If not - that strikes me as a major deficiency that all parties would be best trying to fix.

[11:53] Neas Bade: which would be a step backwards, and something that would be good not to loose

[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: neas: can we really do that today though? The raw jump might be possible but we would hjave asset and inventory probs, potentially

[11:53] You: I have RL intruding and must be passive. Is someone going to get the chat log on the wiki.

[11:54] Neas Bade: if you are changing domains of control, you are leaving that behind

[11:54] Neas Bade: but that's ok

[11:54] Zha Ewry: I think, looking intot he code, that, the current OpenSim code gets pretty close to being an easy basis for an agent domain, in some of the UGAS code

[11:54] Neas Bade: it's like moving from myspace -> facebook

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is I don't think you can tell the client to suddenly reload its inventory

[11:54] Tess Linden: that just tells me that there isn't a big push for it. We've been working hard to meet these deadlines to show that interoperability works, and its amazing, but people are pushing back because they want more? why not take steps at a time and work together?

[11:55] Zha Ewry: I think the client, often gets in the way of this

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I think one issue is that we want really to be protocol agnostic

[11:55] Zha Ewry: because it's so hard to do simple hacks, on it end, which would make it easier for people to test and flow between parts of the developing envrionemnt

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: so potentially an opensim server could be on some protocol other than ogp, when/if there is one

[11:56] Tess Linden: if we can get the code patched to trunk then we can all be working on the same code base to improve interoperability, and we can discuss details at this office hours, at the AWG office hour, or Zero's

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: and opensim itself wasn't really meant ot be a full vw implementation, really just kernel of a general vw server

[11:56] You: I need to go. Sorry folks. Please carry on without me.

[11:56] Bill Humphries: Okay, thanks Charles.

[11:57] Hiro Protagonist: See ya soo Charles

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: tc Charles :)

[11:57] Neas Bade: later charles

[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: bye charles

[11:57] You: My heart is with this, but I have to pretend to work.

[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: lol

[11:57] Daxxon Kinoc: happy RL'ing ...

[11:57] You:

[11:57] Adam Frisby: Zha: just quickly heading back 5 minutes -

[11:57] Zha Ewry: yes?

[11:57] Adam Frisby: Adding AD support to the opensim userserver, what needs to be done?

[11:58] Adam Frisby: Is there some specs someone could spend a couple of days nailing out?

[11:58] Zha Ewry: I htink, and this was a quick glance

[11:58] Adam Frisby: And do we have a test scenario we can use?

[11:58] Zha Ewry: you'd need to be willign to handle about four calls

[11:58] Zha Ewry: and.. Tao, ought to be able to drive the test cases

[11:58] Zha Ewry: Bascially, you need to tyake the place_avatar, fromt he client, in the modded form, and pass it on to the regions, as a rez or rez/de-rez pair

[11:59] Bill Humphries: Yes, Tao, Infinity and Lochlainn have been working on a test harness as well.

[11:59] Tess Linden: Justin: we've iterated on the OGP protocol because we think this is the common language that will define interoperability between virtual worlds. We should discuss more if there are specific pieces that a group of people don't agree with that people would want another protocol for

[11:59] Zha Ewry: I'd be game for a discussion on how to do a sprint on that

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Tess: I'm not sure OpenSim really wants to choose protocols

[12:00] Bill Humphries: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/SLGOGP_Teleport_Strawman

[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: which is why separation of the stuff into modules works for most people on the project

[12:00] Hiro Protagonist: OpenSim wants it's users to choose protocols

[12:00] Zha Ewry: I think Opensim, is strctured well enough to allow ipeople to pick and chose sets

[12:01] Dahlia Trimble is going to take a rl break then head to Zero's ... bye all :)

[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: bye Dahlia

[12:01] Zha Ewry: I've plenty of use cases where I don't want or need a full interop set, just some parts

[12:01] Zha Ewry: Oh. Yikes.time.

[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Dahlia

[12:01] Zha Ewry: I think keepign in mind, that OpenSim is a base, which can have mutiple towers is important

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: absolutely. Also there are many people who want to use opensim for standalone applications without any grid concerns

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: zha: +1

[12:02] Adam Frisby is going to head to Zero's hours. (maybe we should look at extending the OpenSim ones since we keep running into Zeros)

[12:02] Adam Frisby: Seeya over there

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey needs to eat

[12:02] Zha Ewry: yeah, I have an hour on Tuesday when I can work. Can't have that

[12:03] Bill Humphries: Justin, OpenSim doesn't need to be hard coded to use one protocol, I agree.

[12:04] Tess Linden: sorry, pushed a funny button

[12:04] Bill Humphries: But, as the AWG and Linden Lab are working on a candidate for an interopt protocol, I would hate to get blocked on moving forward.

[12:04] Hiro Protagonist: step away from the 'big X' LoL

[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. Which is why the module solution will hopefully be a good way forward

[12:05] Strawberry Fride: I'm gonna head off - thanks all, see you later :)

[12:05] Digi Fly: bye strawberry

[12:05] Hiro Protagonist: bye :)

[12:05] Shenlei Winkler: night, Strawberry

[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: so that OpenSim can be bundled with various ogp modules sitting on top potentially (assuming that something doesn't crop up later on in connection with the fundamental architecture of vws)

[12:06] paulie Flomar: I'm off, too. Good meeting. :)

[12:06] Bill Humphries: okay

[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: bye paulie

[12:06] paulie Flomar: .me waves

[12:06] Bill Humphries: So what's the intermediate step?

[12:06] Tess Linden: I think this has been a very constructive and open conversation, and we should continue to work together to create protocols that'll make the metaverse work, whether its standalone or interoperable

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I do agree

[12:07] Bill Humphries: I've heard concerns about developing that as a branch, and as a patch. But we will need a way to develop that will get us to a OGP module.

[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: I dont question the utility of using standalone first as an intermediary step - it's just that few (if any) beyond the devs in this group run standalone

[12:07] Tess Linden: I think the next step is Zha will refactor code to work this way, and after that would it be good enough to merge into trunk?

[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I would think if Zha does the work to put in modular hooks

[12:08] Hiro Protagonist: we're grid operators/region operators who operate grid attatched regions

[12:08] Bill Humphries: How difficult would it be to take Zha's contribution and modularize it?

[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: the modular parts can be put into trunk and then the module itself shipped either seperately or in an opensim bundle

[12:08] Tess Linden: Hiro: I didnt know that.. good to know

[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: there's probably a reasonable amount of work involved since I don't think we currently have modularity in that area

[12:08] Bill Humphries: Hiro, yes, I understand that. And as we work out the kinks in standalone, then we'll be better prepared to develop grid mode.

[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean,in the mean time perhaps someone would want to just supply an opensim build with Zha's patch applied

[12:09] Hiro Protagonist: Understood :)

[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: if you want to widen the testing participation as much as possible...

[12:09] Bill Humphries: thanks, Hiro

[12:10] BlueWall Slade: clean patches against recent svn's would be ok?

[12:10] Bill Humphries: Yes, broad participation, so we can work out bugs in code and the protocoal.

[12:10] Tess Linden: Justin: would it be too much to ask for that to be done during the Beta so we can get the code in earlier?

[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, for what to be done?

[12:10] Tess Linden: for the refactor for modularity

[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I think as long as people put in the manpower then those patches can come in any time

[12:11] Tess Linden: if we keep the code away from the trunk for too long then maintenance on it will be expensive

[12:11] Hiro Protagonist: afaik, we already have much spport for modules in place - in fact, probably all

[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yes

[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: so I guess the way forward is for Zha or other interested parties to submit patches containing the modularity hooks and as much code as possible that isn't ogp specific

[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: those can be tiny little patches at the work gets done, in principle

[12:12] Bill Humphries: okay, so the consensus is OGP lives in a module

[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: for now at least - who knows what can happen in the future in principle. I mean, if it becomes HTTP then things could be different

[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: but I think we're concerned with concensus building in the OpenSim community

[12:14] Carlos Roundel: hola

[12:14] Hiro Protagonist: Hola Carlos

[12:15] Carlos Roundel: in my region higth avatars density

[12:15] Carlos Roundel: :DD

[12:15] Bill Humphries: I understand, I've worked with groups that work by consensus building, and it's work, but worth the effort.

[12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: Bill: Cool - we're definitely much the same here

[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: hard work but very much necessary to our project setup, I would say

[12:16] Bill Humphries: and if you have questions about OGP, you're very welcome to join in on the process

[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I would like too - unfortunately I'm horribly busy for the next couple of months

[12:17] Axaes Xandal: very funny

[12:17] Axaes Xandal: hehe

[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I think OpenSim very much progresses by coalitions of the willing - though there are strong opinions in core about keeping the project 'neutral' right now

[12:17] Bill Humphries: are there other developers who would be interested in participating?

[12:18] Hiro Protagonist: unfortunately, JustinCC is the last dev here

[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: the last puppy in the shop

[12:18] Hiro Protagonist: heh

[12:18] Shenlei Winkler: awwww

[12:18] Bill Humphries: okay, that's a question I can follow up on later.

[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: but I know Adam and Dahlia are on the OGP list

[12:19] Tess Linden: thanks for having me :)

[12:19] Tess Linden: gotta run

[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Tess

[12:19] G2 Proto: cya Tess

[12:19] Tess Linden: bye Justin, bye G2

[12:19] Bill Humphries: Yes, Tess is presenting at Zero's office hours.

[12:19] Tess Linden: bye everybody

[12:19] Hiro Protagonist: Thanks for coming Tess

[12:19] Bill Humphries: Thanks Tess.

[12:19] Axaes Xandal: bye

[12:19] G2 Proto: I'll look into the oGP list and see if we can help

[12:20] Hiro Protagonist: every little bit helps G2

[12:20] Hiro Protagonist: but what they really need is opensim dev representation in the ogp group

[12:20] Hiro Protagonist: core devs

[12:20] Bill Humphries: Great, and I'll follow up there. But I think the final takeaway is short term patch, longer term module?

[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: There are people in there - I'm in there though I don't have a lot of time

[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bill: in my opinion, that is definitely the way to go to move the process forward

[12:21] Hiro Protagonist: this may be heresy, but...

[12:21] G2 Proto: hehe cool ok well I'll get involved I am mostly web mashups but I have others on my team who could help with client stuff possibly

[12:21] Bill Humphries: Yes, as mentioned ablve Adam and Dahlia.

[12:21] Bill Humphries: and otehrs

[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: The problem is, there aren't always people with time :)

[12:21] Hiro Protagonist: I think that you guys need to quit having office hours about this - get our core group together with your engineers, and hammer this thing out

[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: Us not being a corporate entity and all ;)

[12:21] Hiro Protagonist: just my 0.02$L

[12:21] Bill Humphries: Hiro, I've pitched the idea internally about having a sprint.

[12:22] G2 Proto: I'm willing to commit to help represent OpenSim there regularly

[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: I think the situation needs to evolve a bit first

[12:22] G2 Proto: OGP that is

[12:22] Hiro Protagonist: G2: you arent OpenSIm core

[12:22] Hiro Protagonist: no offense

[12:22] G2 Proto: i see

[12:22] Hiro Protagonist: but hat's whats needfull

[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I reckon Dahlia and Adam will do an excellent job there though

[12:22] Hiro Protagonist: Justin: I'm sure it will :)

[12:22] UUID Speaker: Axaes Xandal, your key is 29540840-7c2d-4038-9089-0d429611644c

[12:23] Rip Oxbar: hello folks

[12:23] G2 Proto: hey Rip

[12:23] Axaes Xandal: Hi Rip

[12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hi rip. You're merely 83 minutes late :)

[12:23] Monk Zymurgy: hi axaes...has anyone made a chatlog for nebadon?

[12:23] Bill Humphries: Justin, by evolve, what do you mean, a more fleshed out spec or acceptance?

[12:23] Axaes Xandal: Hi Monk

[12:23] Rip Oxbar: Charlie u here with us

[12:23] Hiro Protagonist: Charles is not

[12:24] Rip Oxbar: heck

[12:24] Axaes Xandal: Next time y'all come to a meeting you should get properly dressed:--)

[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I think more fleshing out really, seeing how things develop

[12:24] Axaes Xandal: Looks like an army of clones here

[12:24] Rip Oxbar: well i would but my clothes didnt DL

[12:25] Digi Fly: rebake.

[12:25] Axaes Xandal: hehe

[12:25] Bill Humphries: hit rebake

[12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I think there is a lot of concern with seeing grid to grid, though I personally think getting opensim properly hooked up to thenew domain stuff is enough work

[12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to imagine that's much much easier than doing grid to grid

[12:26] Rip Oxbar: ok everythings worn