Chat log from the meeting on 2010-06-08



[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: sorry im late everyone [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadonm [10:09] Fu Barr: hello Neb :) [10:09]  Penny Lane: JCC: that's VERY good to hear. With caps, the general idea is that you'll be able to request only those things you want info on, so your interest list could be minimal (eg. no graphics data sent to a text client). So the interest list is a key issue. [10:09] Penny Lane: Hiya Neb [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: to busy screaming in #opensim-dev [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: screaming? [10:10]  Richardus Raymaker: ohoh... lol [10:10]  Richardus Raymaker: what happend ? [10:10]  WhiteStar Magic: Good Day Folks [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: oh nothing just trying to figure out better tools for region owners for dealing with griefers [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: im just getting tired of it [10:10]  Armin Weatherwax: hehe, richardus ... I'm alsready too spammy about that ... ;) [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: not so much that their is people griefing [10:10] Penny Lane: He just means that his keyboard got a stuck CapsLock :P [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: im getting tired of hearing about how we have no tools to deal with it [10:10]  Lani Global: Trans-Grid tracking radar. [10:11] WhiteStar Magic: it's getting really bad [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah - good to scream about this - squeay wheels tend to get more grease [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: squeaky [10:11] Lani Global: Shared trust network ban IP/Mac addresse. [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: well some troublesome news i heard [10:11] Richardus Raymaker: oh thats nice nebadon. go on with yelling [10:11] Mojito Sorbet: About griefer tools? [10:11] WhiteStar Magic: This all came about today, actually cause of my Mantis [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if you heard it Justin [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: but it appears sqlite is unable to do region bans [10:11] Nebadon Izumi: or Estate bans i mean [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: hi WS [10:12]  Mojito Sorbet: Some missing functionality in a SQL database prevents bans? [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly I am hearing that if you want to do Estate Bans you must switch to MySQL [10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok - but is anybody really using sqlite beyond an intro? [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:12] Penny Lane: What's a database backend got to do with that? [10:12] WhiteStar Magic: not quite, works under MySql but not SqLite [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunatly a large swath of this grid is using it [10:12]  Fu Barr: surely that means adding the fields [10:12] Mojito Sorbet: I thought use of SqlLite was discouraged beyond sandbox mode [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: no [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: apparanrtly melanie says there is an issue with estates [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: justin, to bad many use sqlite way to long or for ever [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: Sqlite is unable to do something [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: let me get a quote from her [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [10:13] Mojito Sorbet: Maybe a particular query fails [10:13] WhiteStar Magic: BTW: JCC, WebStats got busted i 6.9-PF [10:13] WhiteStar Magic: .. [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: teravus is the person who did all the work on webstats [10:13] WhiteStar Magic: May 23rd was teh last time it updated [10:14] Penny Lane: If SqLite doesn't do exactly what MySQL does (just slower and less scalable), then it either needs to be brought up to par with MySQL, or else removed entirely. The backend can't dictate from-end features, that's just nuts. [10:14] Penny Lane: s/from/front/ [10:14] Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/CqGudHiP [10:14] Fu Barr: speaking of databases, has anybody ever used PostgreSQL or the newwer MySQL forks like Drizzla and MariaDB? [10:14] Penny Lane: Or NoSQL [10:14] Fu Barr: *Drizzle [10:14] WhiteStar Magic: there was some effort there but removed due to no maintainers [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: let me explain the issue better [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Estate Bans are greyed out in estate manager if your estate ID is 1,2,3,4,5 [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: these are linden reserved IDs [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: bascilly the entire grid is using them mostly [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who has older databases [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: and by older i mean weeks/month maybe [10:15] Mojito Sorbet: Hard coded estate IDs? [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: so basiclly for the entire grid to fix this [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly everyone has to edit their database manually [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: what a freaking disaster [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: according to the web it is possible to set an autoincrement start value for sqlite [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/692856/set-start-value-for-autoincrement-in-sqlite [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ok thats good [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: this is only with sqlite ? [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i cant say i know one way or the other [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: im going on what was said on IRC [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: you might want to point melanie at that page [10:17] Penny Lane: I don't see how that related to SqLite [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: looks like it's a bit of a workaround but it does appea rpossible [10:18] Penny Lane: Is the autoincrement something that Opensim assumes but isn't available in SqLite? If so, Opensim shouldn't be assuming it. [10:19] WhiteStar Magic: JCC did your patches into 6.9 make any chances to ReprioritizationEnabled [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: cool i pasted it into opensim-dev [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: no [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be really nice to find an automated way to bring everyone up to like level 6 Estate or something [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise what happens [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: if your estate ID is 1,2,3,4,5 [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the estate ban window is greyed out [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: more screaming.. [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly these are linden reserved IDs [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: they use for special purposes of some kind [10:20] Penny Lane: Why is Linden controlling what Opensim estate managers can do? [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: new versions of OpenSimulator use level 100 [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: its a viewer thing [10:20] Richardus Raymaker: we dont want linden ID's [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: if the viewer detects Estate ID 1 [10:20] WhiteStar Magic: just FYI: Testing now with "MaxPoolThreads = 45" & "ReprioritizationEnabled = true" and responses & updates are excellent [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: it goes into lockdown mode [10:20] Penny Lane: Well don't use a stupid Linden viewer. [10:20] Nebadon Izumi: well all the linden derivatives do it [10:20]  Fu Barr: hmmm if it;s a viewer thing surely the 'fix' should be in the viewer code? [10:21] Warin Cascabel is Online [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: even Imprudence [10:21] Penny Lane: Get Imprudence or Hippo teams to remove that Linden control [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: that might be bad for LL [10:21]  WhiteStar Magic: I did Estate Bans with Imprudence and no issues [10:21] Fu Barr: or to be clever enough to see you're not on a linden grid [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: they might really frown on that [10:21] WhiteStar Magic: BUT I have a clean and correct MySql DB [10:21]  WhiteStar Magic: and everything shows but older DBS may not work [10:21] Penny Lane: Nebadon: Linden Lab does not control Opensim by frowning. [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: and actualyl Penny [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: there is a good reason for it [10:21]  Nebadon Izumi: some private grids are using that [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: how to know if youyr mysql db is correct ? check estate settings / [10:21] Nebadon Izumi: we just need to fix our Database [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: modding the viewer to fix opensimulator issues is bad [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: we should not get into that practice [10:22] BlueWall Slade: estate managemnt is pretty tought anyway [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: i just want estate ban to work right [10:22] BlueWall Slade: tough [10:22] Penny Lane: Letting Linden Lab control Opensim through their viewer is equally bad. [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: for most people on OSgrid unless your sim is very new it dont work [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not Linden Labs controlling opensim [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: its part of the Protocol Penny [10:23] Warin Cascabel: Howdy, all. Missed the meeting announcement on IRC. :/ [10:23] Fu Barr: maybe you should send out a missive to all connected region owners [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: estate ids 1-5 are reserved [10:23] Penny Lane: Hiya Warin [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: do you ship a distro with sqlite still the default or mysql? [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite [10:23] Rosey Button: Hello [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: its too hard to ask everyone to use mysql right away [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: most people leave in 10 minutes [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: hi warin [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: asking them to spend a week learning mysql to try opensim for 10 minutes is not gonna work [10:23] WhiteStar Magic: In the Interimn, I Put forward this suggestion (recomendation) Everyone should restrict Build on their lands and tighten their Beltsl, the Griefers have found this playground and it will NOT get better in the near future. [10:23] Mojito Sorbet: I find MySQL a snap to install. [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: and most people are not MysQL DBA's [10:23]  WhiteStar Magic: Hey Warin [10:24] Fu Barr is with mojito [10:24] Penny Lane: WhiteStar++ [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: sure, but the majority doesnt [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if we can at least fix for new setups then that is something [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: new setups are already fixed [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: what im dreading [10:24] Mojito Sorbet: You do not have to be a MySQL DBA just to install OpenSim, do you? [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, ok [10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: is asking 75% of osgrid [10:24] Mojito Sorbet: Doesn't it create all the tables itself? [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: to edit their database to fix this problem [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: anyone with old databases has ids 1-5 [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: and not 100 [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: soryr, I'm a bit lost - why does this a problem now? [10:24] Fu Barr goes off to check his ids [10:24] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, why is this a problem just now? [10:24] WhiteStar Magic: it takes 5 minutes to installl MySql ... BUT some Hosted Systems it may not be a simple or easy task pending on host [10:24] Mojito Sorbet: So supply a little patch that does the necessary UPDATE commands [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: no problem [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: if your estate ID is 1-5 [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: with wampp or xampp mysql must be pretty easy to install for most people. [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer will grey out estate controls [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: like estate ban window [10:25] Mojito Sorbet: In fact, put the "patch: inside the Sim startup code [10:25]  Penny Lane: WhiteStar is dead right. There's no governing provider to appeal to in open worlds, so it's going to get overrun with griefers. Strong controls are much more important here than in SL. [10:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: and there's suddenly an upswing in griefing? [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: its only going to worsen [10:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah ok [10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: not get better [10:25]  WhiteStar Magic: +1 Richardus, XAMPP and Similar make it really easy [10:25]  WhiteStar Magic: it's gotten bad JCC [10:26]  Mojito Sorbet: Another reason to run your sim on your basement machine. IPTABLES is the ultimate griefer defence [10:26]  McCabe Maxsted is Online [10:26]  WhiteStar Magic: We built it, They found it and they are coming now [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya IPtable bans work good [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: if you can get an IP [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: but people can easily change their IP and come back too [10:26] OtakuMegane Desu: The lack of a big overlord will avoid some varieties of griefers. The individual control region owners have makes it a somewhat better situation for dealing with them as they appear too. [10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly somebody could produce an indepednent tool to fix an sqlite db rather than try to do something in opensim itself? [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: if you cant ban them by username too [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: then its less effective [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great Justincc [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: i was hoping for a console command honestly [10:26] Warin Cascabel: Yeah, our Italian friend seems to change IPs every time he comes in; apparently Vodafone Italy is highly dynamic when assigning addresses. [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: 2 console commands [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: 1 to change Estate Owner [10:27] Fu Barr: ya - maybe jsut a page of 'installation tips' on the osgrid.orrg site next to the download page? [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: by name or UUID [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: and 2 to change estate ID [10:27]  Mojito Sorbet: I block whole IP subdomains where my system log shows attempted probes coming from [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i think console commands would work the best [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont know what that entails either [10:27] Richardus Raymaker: cable isp most work here ip m-> mac adres. spoof mac = new ip. [10:27] Warin Cascabel: We don't want to do that, Mojito, because we do have some legitimate Vodafone Italy users. [10:27] Mojito Sorbet: I was htinking more, Peru, Singapore, etc [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya we cant get into blocking entire ISPs [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:27] Lani Global: I propose a trust network of sim owners to exchange griefer IP/Mac addresses correlated with avatar name and UUID. With alarms via IM/email. A built in security auto-ban system. [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: people use proxys [10:28] WhiteStar Magic: but Mofito you could block off people that are not involved and with DHCP it's pointless and a pro griefer will spoof IP or use a Proxy [10:28] Mojito Sorbet: Where I see unauthorized attejmpts to log into my SSH server coming from [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: we would be potentially blocking a few 100k people to stop 1 person [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: who could simply use a proxy and still gain access [10:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Be very, very careful with trying to establish such a system, Lani [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: unfortunatley I'm tied up with other things right now - anybody in osgrid who could step up to the plate? [10:28] t an: i came in with Naali. let's see how quickly it crashes cause i run out of vram .. creates extra materials now for all prims for some default shaders, guys will optimize those things out now [10:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Anyone heard of Ban-Link? Yeah... [10:28] Lani Global: sim owners can decide who they trust [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: t an: cool - how are things looking? [10:29] WhiteStar Magic: Hi Strawberry ! [10:29] Lani Global: there is already a verbal network, passed notecards. [10:29] Strawberry Fride: hi all :) [10:29]  Penny Lane: Armin: have any ideas been discussed for additional security / anti-griefing features for Imprudence? Neb and WS are promoting more control on the Opensim side, but the viewer side needs love too. It's gonna get scary. [10:29]  t an: this is on a linux laptop even .. going ok so far [10:29]  WhiteStar Magic: Lani, banning a name is pointless for Griefers [10:29]  OtakuMegane Desu: THat's fine, as long as you can account for troublemakers like the JLU in SL. [10:29]  WhiteStar Magic: they makes suites of names and go to it [10:29]  Lani Global: i said IP/MAC address, correlated with UUID [10:29]  OtakuMegane Desu: Who will submit stuff if you say the wrong thing in front of them [10:29]  Warin Cascabel: My unease with the "ban list notecards" is that the one I've seen being passed around has nothing other than names - no dates, no information about the type of griefing that was done... no accoutability for whoever put the names on the list... [10:29] BlueWall Slade: one thing you can do is have a flow for the new user [10:29] Mojito Sorbet: That is still dealing with them one alt at a time [10:29] Lani Global: capture alt cross-references [10:30] BlueWall Slade: like a particular region they MUST go to [10:30]  Penny Lane: The vigilantes are as bad as the griefers. In fact they're a partnership, playing a game with each other. [10:30] WhiteStar Magic: remember, accorfding to that one Psycho, I am a Griefer ! [10:30] Mojito Sorbet: Diminished perms for people under a certain age; how about that? [10:30] BlueWall Slade: then a new account is at a place where they have to be ok'd to go to the next step [10:30] Armin Weatherwax: how would viewer anti griefing tools look like? (apart from fixing griefing related crashes and such) [10:30] OtakuMegane Desu: #1 protip for dealing with griefers: Don't give them attention. Ban them and quietly clean up their junk. [10:30] Lani Global: we have no "guardian" here in osg... no linden mommy to run to. [10:31] Lani Global: we need much better networking for sim owners [10:31] OtakuMegane Desu: Boredom will chase away griefers faster than anything [10:31] Mojito Sorbet: As a lparcel permission setting. "Can rez objects if age > N" [10:31] Penny Lane: Armin: the "You do not exist in my world" approach --- ie. ability to identify and totally ignore everything from a given party, mute on steroids. [10:32] Mojito Sorbet: "Can rez up to M objects per hour if age > N" [10:32]  Warin Cascabel: And how do you verify age? [10:32] Penny Lane: Nothing is known about participants, Mojito. [10:32] Mojito Sorbet: Account age [10:32] McCabe Maxsted: so "mute plus mute all objects owned by this person" [10:32] Lani Global: sim owners can decide who they trust to provide cross-reference information, just like we do informally now, except we would have a larger database with more information to make beter informed decisions, and alarms/auto-bans [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Warin: No RL age, age of the account [10:33] Warin Cascabel: I'd dislike that if I were a new user... [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: So if someone made their account 2 days ago you can set it so they can't rez anything on your region till, say, 7 days old [10:33] Mojito Sorbet: At least a griefer would have to pre-create his alts and let them "age" for a bit [10:33] BlueWall Slade: things like that get used for political assasinations [10:33] WhiteStar Magic: Lani ... That has been tried in other venues and failed miserably and in some cases resulted in litigation. It's just not smart to have "Black Lists" [10:33] Lani Global: the alternative is just to allow them to continue to run rampant [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Or you could turn it off for a sandbox or if you just don't want to limit it [10:33]  Penny Lane: Mojito: flywheel effect will be used to counter account-age controls --- register lots of new accounts continually, let them age, use oldest one for griefing. [10:33] Armin Weatherwax: Penny : mute currently mutes the person, the sounds doesnt render the attachments and doesnt play the animations and renders the rest grey [10:34] Mojito Sorbet: Or, "Can rez objects here if first visit to THIS PARCEL was over N days ago" [10:34] Mojito Sorbet: Might be able to implement that in a security Orb [10:34] Richardus Raymaker: i would say if you need a parcel wit rezz for all, turn object entry around that parcel off. [10:34] Warin Cascabel: Also, some people scream "griefer!" if someone bumps into them. How do you know that people getting added to blacklists are really griefers, or if the person who added them was just overreacting (or has a vendetta against them)? [10:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Tat's getting a bit overly complex [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya gotta worry about the spiteful bans [10:34] Penny Lane: Armin: all objects created by that muted user need to be ignored as well. [10:34] BlueWall Slade: the grid infrastructure just needs some more control over where initial accounts are allowed to go, and when they can go to the next stage [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: people just banning cause you looked at them wrong [10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: Griefers are the ones who utterly disrupt things. The rest are usually just trolls or annoyances. [10:35] BlueWall Slade: then that policy can act as a firewall to stop attacks [10:35] Fu Barr wants a copy of this looking wrong anim [10:35] BlueWall Slade: as long as the new accounts have free range - you will have the issue [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya to me griefing is disrupting sim operations [10:35] McCabe Maxsted: I wonder if we can store that information along with the mute list, or how much overhead that would cause. Just turn the objects gray and disable the scripts.... or could perhaps derender [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: not arguing or pushing folks [10:35] Lani Global: that is where, the use of selective trust comes in. you get to decide who else you trust to tell who is a real griefer or not [10:35] Penny Lane waves at McCabe [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: is there a wike page that explains whats a griefer and what not. if i hear that people already ban when you look. uch [10:35] BlueWall Slade: if they have to go to a specific place first, then that can be closed off in case of attacks [10:35] McCabe Maxsted: evenin' Penny :) [10:36]  Penny Lane: :-) [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: eitehr destuuction of the environement or some kind of denial of service attack taking the sim offline [10:36] Warin Cascabel: I have even seen someone accused of being a griefer because they had an ugly avatar (the rationale being that griefers tend to make their avatars deliberately ugly). That seems a bit of an overreaction, to put it mildly. [10:36] Richardus Raymaker: hello mccabe [10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Basically, yes. Wandering around with a singing hat or something is annoying for most but hardly disrupts function. Just mute it and go about your business. [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive seen people ask me to ban people for pushing folks off the landing zone at Lbsa Plaza [10:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [10:37] Armin Weatherwax: Hi McCabe :) [10:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: I should do that [10:37]  McCabe Maxsted waves to everyone ;) [10:37] Warin Cascabel: Hello, McCabe [10:37] Fu Barr promises not to race about in lani's thone thing on lbsa.... [10:37]  Lani Global: standards are what can make it work. [10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hi mccabe [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: what we really need is good tools each sim operator can selectively use when they need them [10:37] Lani Global: but, we are totally wide open for the worst attacks right now [10:38] Richardus Raymaker: ? hmm depend per region [10:38] Penny Lane: Sim bugs is a different issue (griefers play a *useful* role in identifying those). Here we're talking about sim resource exhaustion by griefers, which is a different matter. [10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Yes, but there's still time to get people to learn how to deal with things properly before the bigger waves arrive [10:38] Lani Global: they attack one sim, turn everything into rotation salad... move to the next. [10:38] Warin Cascabel: Set your regions to no-build, or short autoreturn, with no scripting by regular users. Bam, no longer wide open for the worst attacks. [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: well it is possible to join multiple servers / regions/sims to the same estate [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: if we can make estate bans work [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: then it would only require you to ban once [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: for your entire estate [10:38] Mojito Sorbet: Part of the problem is sim code that does not gracefully prevent itself running out of resources [10:39] Mojito Sorbet: Don't wait for "malloc" to fail. Its too late then [10:39] Penny Lane: That needs addressing. [10:39] Richardus Raymaker: warin, autoreturn is not correct sofar i know. i dont use it anymore [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: but right now we need to figure out how everyone can easily set their Estate id's into the 100 range [10:39] Dahlia Trimble is Online [10:39] McCabe Maxsted: warin: can those be set to the default for newly created opensim? Good defaults help a lot [10:39] Warin Cascabel: Autoreturn's been working right on my regions. [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - we don't even have prim/avatar limits yet [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: I've had no problems with autoreturn [10:39] McCabe Maxsted: most people never change from the default settings [10:39] Warin Cascabel: Good point, McCabe - another default that I think should be changed is allowing everyone to terraform. [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: That [10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: That's the one setting I shut off universally as soon as I create a region [10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: I think it depends on the situation. For a download where people want to play sandbox, the defaults should be permissive. For an osgrid.org distro there's certainly an argument for having mor e restrictive defaults [10:40] Richardus Raymaker: prims came back after restart with auto return. [10:40] Richardus Raymaker: or it must be fixt with latest opensim [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus that could be the mono your running [10:40] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.6.4 has a terrible time with threading [10:40]  Richardus Raymaker: 2.6.4 now nebadon [10:41]  OtakuMegane Desu: Only very rarely had prims come back after restart in ANYsituation. And the last time it happened was months ago. [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: if you delete things with lots of scripts [10:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia :) [10:41] Warin Cascabel: Justin: Perhaps a setting could be added to OpenSim.ini or the region .ini to configure the default behavior, then? [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: chances are when the sim restarts they will all be back [10:41] Penny Lane: Misterblue, everyone's rezzed here except you (you're white), what client are you running? [10:41] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia [10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: yeah, that sounds reasonable to me [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus mono 2.6.4 is horrible [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: i would fall back to mono 2.4.2.3 [10:41] Penny Lane: Hi Dahlia :-) [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: your problem will go away [10:41]  Misterblue Waves: running Imprudence [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: it did for us [10:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: really, mono 2.6.4 is bad? [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: it has major threading issues [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: opensim runs horrible [10:42]  Richardus Raymaker: i cant fall back to mono 2.4.3 and it use more memory.. [10:42]  Fu Barr: ah - that;s good to know [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: it took me 1-2 months to figure that out [10:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: urrrrrgh [10:42]  BlueWall Slade: I think it is more the XEngine threading [10:42]  Richardus Raymaker: or tell me later how to do that with suse [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: its Xengine [10:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: The differences in memory usage shouldn't be anything that significant [10:42]  BlueWall Slade: I have been following that tim Melanie gave [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: personally id rather deal with high memory than sims crashing every few hours [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: any progress Bluewall? [10:42] Fu Barr: neb: is that the whole 2.6.x series? [10:42] BlueWall Slade: naah, just researching it [10:42]  Richardus Raymaker: my sims run fine for days [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: Fu Bar likely yes [10:42] Fu Barr: i;m running 2.6.1 i believe - seems to be ok... [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: it depends [10:43] BlueWall Slade: the scripts need to be de-queued when the prims is disposed or moves [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: you might not notice if you dont have heavily scripted items [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: alls it takes is 1 prim with 20 scripts [10:43] Fu Barr: but i;m not running super heavy avaatar in.out stuff [10:43] Richardus Raymaker: only want to know if auto return finaly deletes it from database to [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: as soon as you erase it the sim will crash [10:43] BlueWall Slade: and, I suppose in-progress ones need to be canceled [10:43] Fu Barr: okay - me will go test [10:43] Key Gruin is Offline [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya its worth testing [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: you might see higher memory usage [10:43] Richardus Raymaker: need to talk after meeting with you nebadon. not right moment now [10:43] BlueWall Slade: then the thread should keep rolliong instead of timing out [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: but you will see increased uptimes if your crashing alot [10:44] Penny Lane: Misterblue: there's 6 people running Imprudence here, and yours is the only one not being identified. A very old version? [10:44] Fu Barr: hmmm me not crashing at all... *know wood* [10:44] WhiteStar Magic: I have teh majority of servers and 142 active regions uptime over 12 days solid now [10:44] Fu Barr: *knock [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya Fu Barr its likely your just not abusing xengine enough then [10:44] Fu Barr: fair enough [10:44] Warin Cascabel: Penny: Imprudence can be configured to not identify itself, I think. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: it doestn take much, but alot of people probably dont have use for heavily scripted items much either [10:44] McCabe Maxsted: yup [10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: You've expanded, WhiteStar lol [10:44] WhiteStar Magic: I run 3RD Rock Grid now [10:44] Penny Lane: Warin: really? In menu somewhere? [10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Ahh [10:45] McCabe Maxsted: penny: preferences > advanced [10:45] OtakuMegane Desu: I just have lots of regions [10:45] WhiteStar Magic: I been rebuilding their entire architecture [10:45] Lani Global: is there an active effort to improve memory leak in sims? [10:45] Penny Lane: McCable: thanks, looking [10:45] Warin Cascabel: Preferences>Advanced>Broadcast Your Client Name to Others [10:45] WhiteStar Magic: and it's 95% full automation now [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: Lani alot of the memory leaking is limited to Linux [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: its mono [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: not so much OpenSim [10:45] Richardus Raymaker: high memory usage for mono is the biggest p [roblem for me [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: though we do contribute a bit, you wont find Windows .net servers leaking nearly as bad [10:46] Fu Barr: wow - is there a Godwins law for 'mono being the reason everuthing is fubarred' on osgrid :) [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: mono is just realy bad at managing memory [10:46]  OtakuMegane Desu: I don't encounter any major leaks. Not like it used to be [10:46]  Penny Lane: McCabe: cool, I see the checkboxes [10:46]  WhiteStar Magic: actually with teh most recent NET Patches, the leaks have pretty much vanished [10:46]  Warin Cascabel: There ought to be, Fu. [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ya memory usagine in windows with OpenSim is easily 4-5 times less tha under mono [10:46]  Fu Barr: so that would be an argument to use the latest mono [10:46]  McCabe Maxsted thinks his point about people just running the defaults has been proven :) [10:46] WhiteStar Magic: I have a coupelof "Problem" regions running with the increased threads and they settled right down [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: actually the very latest mono [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.7 Trunk [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: opensim wont even start [10:46] Mojito Sorbet: I heard that MONO 2.6 is better with leaks [10:47] Mojito Sorbet: Better than < 2.6 I mean [10:47] BlueWall Slade: I see pretty stable memory [10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I had to dump trunk a few months ago when everything broke [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: man, we really should rewrite this whole thing in java :) [10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: ya memory actually was great in 2.6.4 [10:47]  BlueWall Slade: I see threads increase and stay [10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: its just the threading thing [10:47]  OtakuMegane Desu: Pity, cause it was running very nicely [10:47]  BlueWall Slade: and the memory rises with them [10:47]  Richardus Raymaker: with mono 2.6 yes memory is stable. mono 2.4 i never loved in the past. because it eats memory [10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: Xengine is failing bad in 2.6.4 [10:47]  Warin Cascabel: Heck with Java, rewrite it in DCL! [10:47]  Richardus Raymaker: lol justin [10:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: warin: I'm not a masochist ;) [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: yes memory is super high here at WP on 2.4.2.4 [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: we averagae 4gb on top [10:47] WhiteStar Magic: BleuWall Try Setting "MaxPoolThreads = 45" & "ReprioritizationEnabled = true" [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: but it stays up for 48 hours [10:48] Penny Lane: It's worrying that Novell is doing such a bad job. Lack of competition I guess. [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: on 2.6.4 WP was lasting 1-3 hours tops [10:48] WhiteStar Magic: Pending on yoru machine of course [10:48] Fu Barr recons novell just provides marketing stooges not engineers [10:48] BlueWall Slade: they have the hots for the iPhone, lol [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I doubt they're doing a bad job - I just think it's immaturity - and I'm not sure any other project pushes mono in these ways [10:48] OtakuMegane Desu: 4GB for a plaza that can stay up for a couple days seems a good deal [10:48] WhiteStar Magic: don't put threads that high on a Dual Core and defenitely not on single core [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya for us 2.6.4 is not an option [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: for some it may work just fine though [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: for very light builds [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: with minimal traffic [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: But Melanie and Bluewall might be onto the why [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: so it could be something we get past pretty quickly too [10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: That'd be great [10:49] BlueWall Slade: that is the only thingt I have seen, and it has been for a while [10:49] Penny Lane: Damn, C# needs a translater into something else. :-) [10:50] Richardus Raymaker: so better dont try to downgrade ? that will be a pain in opensuse anyway. [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: not really Richardus [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: you could compile mono into the userspace [10:50]  Richardus Raymaker: yes. i know that. [10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: i have several versions of mono on my SuSe 11.2 servers [10:50]  BlueWall Slade: I had an issue I had to sort out, then I should be able to look at it [10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: great BlueWall [10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to get back to better memory usage [10:51]  BlueWall Slade: been trying to get Imprudence running on my WS too, (Thanks Armin) [10:51]  Penny Lane: Presumably the Gnu version of C# is completely unusable, or even a dead project. DotGnu or something like that. [10:51]  Fu Barr: so bottom line - what's the config du jour for good opensim runs on *nix? mono 2.4.x for the threading and 4gb for the memory issues? [10:51] Richardus Raymaker: i will try older mono. but i think it will not run for days with old mono [10:51] Lani Global is Online [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya my guess is performance on DotGNU is bad [10:51] BlueWall Slade: I am hopeful of the next generation GC on Mono [10:52] Richardus Raymaker: shame we need mono [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya me too [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.8 should have it [10:52]  Fu Barr: 2,8 is 2010 [10:52] BlueWall Slade: that has always been the kicker for me [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: mono trunk its supposdedly partially functional [10:52] Fu Barr: 2012 [10:52] BlueWall Slade: I find, that the regions run excellent if I kkeep them out of the swap file [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: but the problem is mono Trunk doestn run opensim at all [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: even on the standard gc [10:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: I'd have to try very hard to push into my swap file lol [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: no mono 2.8 is sooner than 2012 [10:52] Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0 is 2012 [10:53] Penny Lane: Well nothing works well until 3.0 :-) [10:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: do the mono developers know this? I hear somewhat mixed reports about their support attitude :) [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: probably not Justin, melanie suggested i try it [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: to solve my mono 2.6.4 problems [10:53] BlueWall Slade: lol, Penny or '95 ? [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: thats when i found out [10:53] Penny Lane: Hehe [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: ODE dies [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: you get something about libode.so cant be found [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: even though it exists [10:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol ODE [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: ho hum [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully its nothing to drastic [10:54] Fu Barr: might that simply be some stupib symbol/versioining thing? [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: melanie said something about we might have to be more explicit with paths or soemthing [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: they might have changed how it looks for addons i guess [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I dunno. Don't have time to try it myself or do good bug reporting unfortunatley [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no point in us adjusting for a non-release mono [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: if its broken in the next rlease [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: then lets deal [10:55] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, though it they don't knwo there's a risk it could come out broken. Of course, it could also be up to us to adjust something [10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: don't know [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: right [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say [10:55] OtakuMegane Desu: 2.7 trunk was fine up until whatever happened. It might vanish just as suddenly before release [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: i'll keep trying every few weeks [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: it could just be that one particular day [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: they broke everyting [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: we have had those days too [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, very true [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: especially since they are bringing in the SCgen [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt thats as bad as our 0.7 refactor will be [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: probably worse [10:57] Fu Barr: SCgen? The South Carolina Genealogical Society?? [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: its the new Compacting GC [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: for memory [10:57] BlueWall Slade: 0.0 South Carolina?? [10:57] Fu Barr: 1st hit on google :) [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: oh lol [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: type mono scgen [10:57]  BlueWall Slade: haa [10:57]  Fu Barr: lol [10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: anywya, seeing as we're nearly at the end of the meeting ,any other topics [10:58]  McCabe Maxsted: yes [10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: ? [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: http://www.mono-project.com/Compacting_GC [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: SCgen-GC [10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: go head mccabe [10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: is the correct term [10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: ahead [10:58]  WhiteStar Magic: There waas a Bounty posted on our Forums for soemone to dev something for OpenSim. Can't locate the post now [10:58]  McCabe Maxsted: I want to start hosting viewer-specific office hours (for imprudence, mainly, but also stuff that the viewer could do better/doesn't do well, etc) for opensim [10:59]  McCabe Maxsted: I was told after this meeting would be a good time :) [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: sure [10:59] t an: McCabe - sound like a good idea (at least for a viewer dev like me :) [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: the Meerkat team used to have it right after these office hours [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: well, after is when I vamoosh - but maybe that's a bit egocentric :) [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: some of the OpenSim Devs usually poof though [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: if not all of them [10:59]  t an: were there already some office hours for imprudence? ah perhaps it was meerkat [10:59]  McCabe Maxsted: it'd be great to have other viewer devs there :) [10:59] WhiteStar Magic: Imprudence had tehir "grid Tour" going [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: wasn't there going to be an imprudence meeting on 3rd rock? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: McCabe if you want to type up a news artice [11:00] McCabe Maxsted: we've gotten a lot of feedback from people on the forums/blog, but inworld office hours are a good way of talking ot people [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: article, we can post it on our http://osgrid.org/news [11:00] WhiteStar Magic: the have a space on 3RG for their use [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: you could announce the hours etc.. ask for feedback [11:00] McCabe Maxsted: sure, awesome [11:00] WhiteStar Magic: **They (Imp Team) [11:00] McCabe Maxsted: what time does this meting normally end? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: now [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: its usaully 1 hour [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: we tend to run over alot, but its usuaully alot of BS'ing after the 1st hour [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: but then it can rumble on - you might need to be firm to wrench it around :) [11:01]  McCabe Maxsted: okay. From 11 to noon then is a good time for me :) [11:01] McCabe Maxsted: haha [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:01] Dahlia Trimble: now? hmmm poofing time, bye all :) *waves* [11:01] Warin Cascabel: Bye, Dahlia [11:01]  McCabe Maxsted: break out the poking stick [11:01]  McCabe Maxsted waves. Take care Dahlia! [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Dahlia [11:02]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:02]  McCabe Maxsted: plus I figure since LL's shutting down all their OHs, and we like to be different.... [11:02]  Armin Weatherwax is back in 10 minutes [11:02]  McCabe Maxsted: :) [11:02] Fu Barr: OHs? [11:02] McCabe Maxsted: Office Hours [11:02] WhiteStar Magic: LL killing Office Hours ? ! [11:02] WhiteStar Magic: WOW... That's really listening to teh User Base [11:02] Fu Barr: ah - yes ofcourse - reduce interaction with the populace enven further [11:02] McCabe Maxsted: WS: most OHs are gone [11:03] Warin Cascabel: Not even pretending to give a rat's ass about the user community anymore, are they? [11:03] McCabe Maxsted: hehe nope [11:03] Strawberry Fride: catch you later folks :) [11:03]  WhiteStar Magic: Phuckin ArseWipes [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: heh well im not suprised [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: have you ever gone to a LL meeting [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [11:03]  OtakuMegane Desu: Me either [11:03]  Fu Barr: anybody seen some of secondlice's youtube vids? [11:03]  McCabe Maxsted: some keep on, but all the major ones have been discontinued [11:03]  WhiteStar Magic: only for teh TPV ones [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: the 1st 35 minutes is always 100% off topic [11:03]  Fu Barr: some of them are really funny [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: oH's ? [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: OH [11:03]  McCabe Maxsted: but anyway [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: ohh ok [11:04]  McCabe Maxsted: if anyone has something viewer (or specifically imprudence)-related, would love to talk about it :) [11:04] WhiteStar Magic: Tey are positioning for teh sale so who knows what will be up next year [11:04] Fu Barr: big up on the weekle that played quictime video tracks - [11:04] Fu Barr: hope audio will come soon too :) [11:04]  Warin Cascabel: McCabe - any possibility of being able to mute particular sounds? [11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: how's the satus with corrupted textures ? i now its SL bug [11:04]  McCabe Maxsted: like, particular sound ids? [11:04]  Lani Global: McCabe: I'm asking for a feature in the Estate section. Upload region map tile texture. [11:05]  WhiteStar Magic: Mute is not stored by OpenSim so it can't persist [11:05]  Warin Cascabel: Yeah... there are certain gesture sounds that absolutely drive me insane. [11:05]  McCabe Maxsted: Richard: it's coming along nicely, although the latest fix introduced a bad memory leak that some people are seeing (such as armin, for example) [11:05]  WhiteStar Magic: the mute.php interface for teh viewer is empty [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure you can overcome the Upload map texture with the viewer honestly [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: everytime you restart your simulator there is a function that generates the map tile [11:06] McCabe Maxsted: Lani: would love to have that! If any opensim dev will do the server implementation we can do the viewer ;) [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and loads it into memory [11:06]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [11:06]  Warin Cascabel: But I don't want to mute altogether the people using them. And I wouldn't mind having to mute the sound once per session if it doesn't persist. [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: map tiles are not persisted [11:06]  OtakuMegane Desu: You can, however, hack opensim :D [11:06]  McCabe Maxsted: heh, the "Hooo!" gesture comes to mind [11:06]  Fu Barr: oh yes, i doo have one perhaps viewer related thing [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it would require changes on both sides [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: i see sometimes corrupted textures mccabe. but its not so bad [11:06]  Lani Global: I've contacted one opensim developer who says can do it. [11:06]  McCabe Maxsted: shoot, Fu [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: cool [11:06]  Fu Barr: can we have a switch/check box to put off 'copy to trash' deletion behaviour [11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: I did set up opensim once to where Icould assign custom maptiles [11:06] McCabe Maxsted: how do you mean? [11:06] Lani Global: the dev says, "need a viewer feature" [11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Had to muck with some of the code though. Bit of a pain [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya it is possible, they just dont persist [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: every restart you have to do it [11:07]  Penny Lane: Neb: I just looked around DotGnu, and it's been basically dead for a year. One person is still occasionally sync'ing the Git site to external libs, but there's really no development. Dead project. [11:07] Fu Barr: it would make a huge difference in delation large sets of prim from a region [11:07] Lani Global: so, will put you 2 together soon, to make it happen. [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya not suprising Penny [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: everyones working on mono [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its the safer choice, Novell has deep pockets and lots of staff on payroll [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: even microsoft chips in to mono dev [11:07] McCabe Maxsted: fu: you mean toggle whether or not to delete or move to trash by default? [11:08] Penny Lane: Novell is looking for a buyer I thought. There's no telling what happens after that [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: novell has been for sale for 10 years now [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:08] Penny Lane: lol [11:08] McCabe Maxsted: warin: would it help if the viewer told you who is emitting what sound where? [11:08] Fu Barr: yeah - it would make things speed up reallyseveral magnitudes because the server wont need to move stuff into inventory [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: they always say that [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: thats how they get microsoft to give them more money [11:08] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) bdeda18: 2010-06-04 18:54:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: they threaten to sell [11:08] McCabe Maxsted isn't sure he sees how that would speed things up [11:09]  Fu Barr: well i need to wait for thins to get moved into trash by the server, i look at my console and all this prim gets moved about [11:09] Lani Global: a sound scanner would be good. [11:09] McCabe Maxsted: (I've often wanted a 'gestures' slider in the audio controls, but I'm not sure if it's possible to distinguish with the viewer) [11:09] Key Gruin is Online [11:09] Lani Global: ?¸.•* LoL *•.¸? [11:09] Lani Global: <<< would love to silence the gesture permanently. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:10] Fu Barr: so i;m assuming when I delte something the reference gets removed, but also copied into my trash folder - there's an overhead there [11:10] Fu Barr: and it's slow if you delete stuff that; over 200 prims or so [11:10]  McCabe Maxsted: hehe, same here Lani [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: you mean in inventory? [11:10] Fu Barr: yeah [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: well yes [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: here is the thing [11:10] McCabe Maxsted: it's definitely possible to mute by sound ids... could maintain a list in user_settings [11:10] Warin Cascabel: McCabe - I can see who's emitting the sound by enabling beacons. I don't want to mute the people, just the sounds that set my teeth on edge. [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: we dont support coalesced objects yet [11:10] Fu Barr: i know what i;m deleteing it doesn;t need to go into trash for 'safety' [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: in SL they send 1000 things back as 4 items [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we dont do that [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we send 1000 things back 1000 times [11:11] Fu Barr: yeah - i know - been a major headache for me - lol [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: melanie is working on that [11:11] WhiteStar Magic: cluttering the system [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: i have that with chat gestures. the are really aponfull. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have any eta but shes working on it [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: some code is actually in core now for that [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its not live yet [11:11] McCabe Maxsted: I feel you, Warin. Was thinking about how to find out who's emitting what sound in a useful way [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but once its live that should improve a lot [11:11] Fu Barr: but i found that the faux build thing rezzer works a charm so that's half the coalesced object story seen to... but the deletion would be lovely if it could be fasster [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: good tool warin [11:12] WhiteStar Magic: hows teh 0.7 to OSG Tests going, any notable progress ? [11:12] Lani Global: many people resort to "MUTE" to stop certain other people from abusing them with gestures, but are still interested in what that muted person might have to say. [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right now the hold up is the Web Interface mostly Whitestar [11:12] Fu Barr: oh tell us about the 900 pavvy test run neb.... [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its being worked on [11:12]  McCabe Maxsted was going to add "emitting sounds" to the radar, but that's not selective [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: we have been waiting to be absolutely sure there were no more changes [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: which is a good thing we did [11:13] WhiteStar Magic: McCabe isn't there a beacon for sounds ? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: cause there was changed recently that would have really messed up a web interface [11:13] Warin Cascabel: McCabe, could the viewer maybe display a list of playing sounds (probably by partial UUID, like the texture console does) in a small window, highlighting them as they play and maybe keeping them around for a few seconds in case someone's not quick enough selecting them? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but i think we are now past the drastic database changes [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ive been told there are no more [11:13] McCabe Maxsted: there is, but I'm not sure if it works on avatars either [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: for 0.7 anyway [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: so we should be able to get moving better i hope now without fear of time being wasted to bad [11:14] Lani Global: Question: is there a way for the server to send the avatar's location in altitude Z axis in more than the present <700 or 1000m level? [11:14] McCabe Maxsted: warin: yes, could do that. Something like the Animation List then? [11:14] Warin Cascabel: Well, the beacons do highlight when played by an avatar. [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it seems the lack of clarity about whether more database changes will occur is as much a factor as the changes themselves [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:14]  McCabe Maxsted: ah, good to know [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: it seems most everyone agrees the drastic changes are done [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: atleast for Robust side [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: good [11:14] McCabe Maxsted never uses beacons [11:14] Warin Cascabel: Haven't seen the Animation LIst, McCabe - where do I find that? [11:15] McCabe Maxsted: Advanced > Animation List [11:15] McCabe Maxsted: shows all the animations currently playing on your avatar with an option to revoke them [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: Warin do you have anything to Add about Web Interface? [11:15] Warin Cascabel: McCabe: Ah, yes, precisely like that. [11:15] Warin Cascabel: Nebadon: Still getting up to speed on CodeIgniter. [11:15] WhiteStar Magic: spiffy [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: k ya we have decided to use SimianGrid [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: as our front end [11:16] Warin Cascabel: But once that's done, I should be able to burn through a lot of the items on the list pretty quickly. [11:16] Fu Barr: yeah - me learning CI too atm. [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: we are going to make it work with Robust and SimianGrid backends [11:16] Lani Global: currently all the viewer radars are unable to show avatar locations above a certain height because AFAIK, the server doesn't provide it to the viewer. Can this be worked out so that the higher Z information can be delivered? [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: SimianGrid Frontend is built on CodeIgniter [11:16] Fu Barr: yeah [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and it uses API to connect to backend [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: so reworking it for robust shouldnt be too bad [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: its not like starting 100% over [11:16] Warin Cascabel: RIght. [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and it makes simiangrid more useful in the end [11:17] BlueWall Slade: not going to retro-fit Elgg ? [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: hehe [11:17] WhiteStar Magic: BURN ELGG !!!! [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: we are going to puor gasoline on it and dance naked over the flames [11:17] WhiteStar Magic: lol [11:17] McCabe Maxsted: out of curiosity, has anyone tried the alpha/tattoo layers in imprudence? [11:17] BlueWall Slade: mv elgg /dev/null [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: whats also nice about CI, it has tons of plugins [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: like PHPBB interface [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not an elgg fan? [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: mediawiki interface [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: not really Justin [11:18] Fu Barr: ion-auth [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: there's no option to have a prim search in the viewer ? (ok ok i go try auto return) [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: its so overly complicated [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: much more than we need [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, I see [11:18] BlueWall Slade: is it some Windows IDE ? [11:18] McCabe Maxsted: richard: not any reliable way [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: whitestar is going to give a burn ellg party :) [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we do however hope to keep the look and feel of elgg [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: so its not too drastic for everyone [11:19]  Fu Barr: booo hhissss [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont be exact of course [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: more like our main theme [11:19]  Fu Barr: grey and greyness [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: not the default elgg theme [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: but hopefully unlike Elgg [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we can maybe offer options [11:19]  Richardus Raymaker: as long its compatibly wiith larg/custom fonts on desktop... [11:19]  WhiteStar Magic: a Warm Comfortable "VISIBLLE" format is preffered IMO [11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: differnt color schemes or soemthing [11:19]  WhiteStar Magic: VISIBLE [11:20]  WhiteStar Magic: too damn hard to read right now [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: Themeing Elgg is one of my nightmares [11:20] WhiteStar Magic: the Grey on Black parts anyways [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: thats really the #1 reason i hate elgg [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya we can improve all that [11:20] Warin Cascabel: I plan to implement the visual style in CSS, so that "retheming" will be as easy as possible. [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it wont be exact [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: but we are trying to make it less a shock is all when it happens [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it will be obviously differnt and hopefully improved [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: our goal is not to capture elggs crap stuff [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but Elgg the concept is sound [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: Facebook etc.. etc.. [11:22] Warin Cascabel: I would actually like to make the front page a little more informative for people who don't know what "the largest running OpenSimulator grid" actually *means*. [11:22] Lani Global is Online [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: the content should all be repalced in my opinion [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i really just mean the flow of the site, what tools will be available [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: not so much the content [11:22] BlueWall Slade: the event things is crazy [11:23] Warin Cascabel: Right. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya events and calendar will die [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and be reborn to something sane [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:23] BlueWall Slade: I tried that, and can never get the time set right [11:23] Warin Cascabel: Heh :) [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: then they never display [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its horrible [11:23]  BlueWall Slade: or people game it, something I guess [11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: very confusing, clumsy [11:23]  Richardus Raymaker: need to admit, i look not much on the page :( [11:23] Warin Cascabel: Yes, one thing I definitely plan is a timezone setting for users, so that all times in the calendar and events are displayed in something individually relevant. [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya i try to avoid the website as much as possible too [11:23] BlueWall Slade: I have to look at moving [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: mostly stay in the forums [11:24] BlueWall Slade: I was hoping Jesus would copme back first, but noooooo [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:24] Warin Cascabel: Heh. [11:24] McCabe Maxsted: that'd be nice, Warin. I looked into that for the viewer, and it's a mighty pain [11:24] Warin Cascabel: I'll bet, McCabe. [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya we also want the website to be more viewer friendly [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: so all the tools can work in a viewer web window [11:25] BlueWall Slade: that would be cool [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the map sorta works [11:25] Fu Barr: i just hope the next version of the viewer login screenis going to be prettier.... the current one is just too ugly for words [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: which i was suprised to see [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: mccabe can we not have some timezone calculator in trhe viewer ? (set timezone in prefernce or so ?) [11:25] Warin Cascabel: It'll be all 1990s-vintage animated GIFs, Fu. [11:25] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:25] WhiteStar Magic: I updated teh WebStats Mantis Neb. [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: click on clock in viewer to get local time .. [11:26] Fu Barr: ! [11:26] Warin Cascabel: UNDER CONSTRUCTION!!!! [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i wonder if webstats broke because of Sqlite and Sqlitelegacy [11:26] Fu Barr: *chuckle* [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: since its 100% reliant on slqite [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite* [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: not completely impossible [11:26] Lani Global: does OSg plan to continue on San Francisco time zone? [11:26] WhiteStar Magic: 69PF-dd1b99-12757 is teh last working version according to my Repo Distro history [11:27] McCabe Maxsted: you can, although finding what time zone a user is using is a lot of work. Probably in the next weekly you'll be able to switch between 12/24/UTC time though [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i wonder how hard it would be to make webstats work with mysql [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: have to ask teravus [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: although in principle there shouldn't have been any breakage at all [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya especially on windows [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: both should work on windows right? [11:27] Warin Cascabel: Awesome, McCabe. [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: wierdness [11:27] Lani Global: How about GMT? [11:27] Fu Barr: gmt++ [11:28] Lani Global: UTC or GMT is the "open" standard [11:28] BlueWall Slade: would be cool [11:28] McCabe Maxsted: isn't UTC more widely used now? [11:28] BlueWall Slade: that or control it by the grid services [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya we tried to focus on UTC here [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but the viewer makes that difficult [11:29] WhiteStar Magic: maybe selectable UTC or GMT ? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid servers are all UTC i think [11:29] Lani Global is Online [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: id have to check them all again [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but they should be [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: we'll definatly audit that soon [11:29] McCabe Maxsted: naw, should be one or the other [11:30] McCabe Maxsted: does opensim have support for events and classifieds yet by the way? [11:30] McCabe Maxsted knows inworldz does, I mean. But trunk [11:30] Dorothea Lundquist is Offline [11:30] BlueWall Slade: there are addons for the WI on gforge [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya, that was the only implementation it hink [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt complete either was it? [11:31] WhiteStar Magic: That is presently 3.4 busted MacCabe [11:31] WhiteStar Magic: 3/4 [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya no doubt not 100% working either [11:31] BlueWall Slade: ya [11:31]  WhiteStar Magic: We been plugging it up in 3RG with Flyman and is not lookin good [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya we really need to rethink how it works [11:32] WhiteStar Magic: basically threw hands in air as it's moot with 0.7 [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the Redux method was not good [11:32] McCabe Maxsted: ah okay. So can put off the question of making sure they're usable with timezone changes etc then [11:32] WhiteStar Magic: I believe that McCortez said he was ggonna put an effort in that Direction for Simian Grid and other... [11:33] McCabe Maxsted nods [11:33] WhiteStar Magic: He was tallking a working Search & Web Interfaces similar to SL 2 type of stuff, along with a coupleof others. PHreach is also working along similar lines too with HWIOS & Simian ... [11:34] WhiteStar Magic: Althoigh I think phreach is more convcerned with gettinga good mapping enging together [11:34] WhiteStar Magic: *engine [11:34] WhiteStar Magic: bah... damn hands [11:34] Lani Global: any plan to extend the normal Draw Distance slider to 1024m, McCabe? [11:34] McCabe Maxsted: yes, I'm very excited with what prearch is doing. Hope to add it to Imprudence [11:34] Penny Lane: How about giving Imprudence two time fields, Region Time in the region's chosen TZ, and User Local Time in the user's TZ? [11:35] WhiteStar Magic: Local Time is on yur OS Task Bar anyways [11:35] Fu Barr: local time is in the win7 ribbon or the finder menu - no? [11:35]  WhiteStar Magic: All Win versions and most of teh NIX Desktops I have seen [11:36] WhiteStar Magic: Local Time = User looks at PC/Watch or Wall Clock. [11:36] Lani Global is Online [11:36] McCabe Maxsted: penny: mainly because it's frustrating as hell to get timezones working right. I coded a quick test using boost's date and time, hehe [11:36] Penny Lane: If you're running fullscreen you don't have desktop data like local time showing [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya time zones and DST has been a real pain in the ass since day one of this project [11:37] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:38] Penny Lane: McCabe: how about avoiding the problem of TZ detection entirely, and letting the user simply choose a TZ setting for the Local clock from dropdown? [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: we have never really come to a good solution [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: after endless debate [11:39] Fu Barr: how about a simple 'time server' on the grid loginservice? [11:39] Fu Barr: you connect to grid x - and get time fo that grid [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well time should always be local to you [11:39] Fu Barr: then advise a grid owner to set it to GMT [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: everything should be stored in like Unix epoch or something [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: then adjust for your local time [11:39] Fu Barr: also good. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: that makes most sense to me [11:40]  Penny Lane: Time should not be a grid parameter, but a region parameter, otherwise you're putting policy into the protocol. A grid may contain many separate areas, eg it could be a solar system of planets. A single grid time is wrong. [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but that requires a viewer to support that [11:40] WhiteStar Magic: WOW JCC Nice Batch of fixes there [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: oh, i want a 24 hour clock [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: the LL based viewers assume LindenLand [11:40] Lani Global: almost everyone already has a time display on their computer or their wrist watch. it is just a matter of how we standardise on our inter-related matters, like the clock tower in the village square. [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: just backports [11:41] Lani Global: <<<says yes to 24hr time [11:41] Fu Barr: me too [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: yes lani, but the viewer one is pm / am = calculation errors [11:41] Lani Global: <<< says yes to GMT [11:41] Fu Barr: 24 hr time is sooo much simpler [11:41] Deana Later: For pratical purposes there should be a grid standard time [11:41] WhiteStar Magic: +1 Fu [11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: so 24 hour option in prefernces would be nice [11:41] WhiteStar Magic: 24hr clock is reasonable in a Global Community [11:41] Deana Later: as someone who does promote events and would like ppl to attendf [11:41] Deana Later: it helps [11:42] Fu Barr: as is GMT :) [11:42]  Penny Lane: Yeah, 12h time is useless. Next to impossible to know whether the 12:00->1:00 period is just after midday or just after midnight [11:42]  Haku Mhia: tbh 24 hour clock is more logical anyway as it will srtop user confusion about hte am pm issue [11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: hi haku [11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: just backports [11:42]  Lani Global: or... do we want to be the same as SL for some reason (yuk yuk) [11:42]  Haku Mhia: hai rich [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: well storing time events in Unix epoch eliminates all those problems [11:42]  Fu Barr waves at haku [11:42]  Warin Cascabel resolves to write a highly configurable clock HUD. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: then its up ot the end user to determine what timezone etc.. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: what time format [11:43]  Lani Global: is "linden time" hardcoded anywhere? [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer [11:43] Fu Barr wonders where haku is... [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its why the opensim team hasnt had a solution [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is in the viewer [11:43] Penny Lane: Lindens don't control all viewers. Talk to McCabe [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just mean up to this point [11:43] Haku Mhia: well the thing with one time zone is ..... no1 is telling the user what time there liveing in but it will give grids a uniformed time frame for planning events and help people cordinate over multiple timezones [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: none of the viewer devs have really wanted to take on the time issue [11:44] Lani Global: how about this: provide both/either standard.. either "linden time" or GMT? [11:44] Lani Global: in GMT, provide 24hr. [11:44] Haku Mhia: i dont thing the time zone choosen is the issues [11:44] Haku Mhia: *think [11:44] Deana Later: it doesn't really matter what time zone you set as the system standard [11:44] Warin Cascabel: McCabe said earlier to expect a UTC/GMT thingy within the week. So at least one viewer dev is taking it on. :) [11:44] McCabe Maxsted: penny: mainly because there are over 300 different tz settings. Finally learned you just have to get the info from the OS. I like the idea of 24 hour default. Most users are international anyway [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: use centrol osgrid time is fine. only in 24 hour format as option. [11:44]  Penny Lane: McCabe: yep! [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: cool, any kind of change at this point would be good [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: the current system obviously doesnt work well [11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: if you say 11:00 in 24 hour clock i know its 11:00 (and not 23:00) [11:45]  Warin Cascabel: Definitely not. [11:45]  McCabe Maxsted: yeah, it's very frustrating [11:45]  Lani Global: using GMT for the OSg "official time" would make a loud statement of "international open standard" [11:46]  Penny Lane: In VWRAP, I guess we could add Time Service as yet another (noddy) service, running on grids and on regions. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: right now we our focused on UTC [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: the website forces UTC right? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: as i beleive all our servers are set to UTC [11:46] Haku Mhia: well the website is a lil confuseing [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya its very confusing [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: but im pretty sure its based on UTC [11:46] BlueWall Slade: would be fun to get a network dump to see what services are defaulting to LL [11:46]  McCabe Maxsted: so opensim doesn't use dst [11:46] Haku Mhia: it opperates on california time but converts to utc or summin like that [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya the disconnect between the website and viewer is the issue [11:47] McCabe Maxsted: (and the timezone issue is kinda important, considering you can't just assign for example PST based on a timezone. States like Arizona and countries in south america totally break that) [11:47] Lani Global: need a separate checkbox for 24hr UTC vs Linden Time. [11:47] Haku Mhia: well wouldnt in that case it be the option to make the viewer time compatable with the website ? [11:47] McCabe Maxsted: *based on a time, rather [11:47] Warin Cascabel: Yep. [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya no DST here in Arizona [11:48] Haku Mhia: if it'a a pain to change the website [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: well Elgg isnt going to be changed [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: thats for sure [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: the new website we can do whatever we gotta do [11:48]  Penny Lane: Arizona the only sane place on the planet, at least in timezones :-) [11:48]  Lani Global: actually, more people use Beijing time than any other timezone. we should adopt it :) [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: nothings set in stone there yet [11:48] McCabe Maxsted agrees :) [11:49]  McCabe Maxsted: hahaha Lani [11:49]  Lani Global: shows you how silly linden time is. [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: cool though, it will be nice to see some progress in this area [11:49]  Penny Lane: Yeah [11:49]  Warin Cascabel: Agreed. [11:50]  Lani Global: there is current progress in Imprudence in improving the radar. [11:50]  McCabe Maxsted: it'll be in preferences: a combobox for selecting "sim" time (no lousy "linden" time in imprudence :) [11:50]  Fu Barr: hello deana :) [11:50] Deana Later: Hiya [11:51] Fu Barr tips his goggles to haku [11:51] Penny Lane: I also want to see the "You have been disconnected from Second Life" message disappear unless appropriate :-) [11:51]  Lani Global: for sim owners to better keep track of their own sims, and the griefers... we need better radars for all the sim, including high altitude. [11:51]  McCabe Maxsted nods at Lani. So far the rewrite's fixed the spam/presence bugs. Trying to figure out what to do with all the buttons [11:51]  Penny Lane bets it's done in a weekly already :P [11:51]  Warin Cascabel: Oh, that reminds me. [11:52]  Haku Mhia grabs a cloth breaths on it and gives fuu's goggles a quick wipe [11:52]  Fu Barr: fanks :) [11:52] McCabe Maxsted: it has hehe ;) [11:52]  Penny Lane: Haha [11:52]  Warin Cascabel: Sometimes when a region dies, Imprudence just dumps you out to the desktop without warning - so if you've been working on a script that you haven't saved in a while, all your work is gone. Any chance the "Would you like to stay in to view chat, etc." dialog could be popped up in those instances? [11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: and get lost of the ghosts helps to [11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: hi deana [11:52]  McCabe Maxsted: ah, yes. Penny was just mentioning that to me in IM [11:53]  Deana Later: Hiya Rich [11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: not sure if ghosts is viewer or opensim bug. [11:53]  Lani Global: the imprudence viewer radar developers have run into the limitation of not enough avatar height information from the server. [11:53]  Warin Cascabel: Jeez, I haven't seen ghosts in months. [11:53]  Haku Mhia: somehting i'd like to see in the viewers thou is translators and possably ao's since it all opperates client side it will take off the server strain ie less scripts running and esp with the translator work in no script zones [11:53] McCabe Maxsted: seems to only happen on opensim... what happens is the region becomes invalid, but somehow the viewer finds it anyway, and the collision is an obscure force quit that shouldn't ever really be run [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i see them almost daily [11:53] Penny Lane: Longer term ... if the sim dies, the viewer stays up and lets you choose a new region. [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: maby its gone with mono 2.4 ? :) [11:53] Deana Later: we had one just the other day [11:53]  Warin Cascabel: Haku, there's already an AO in Imprudence. [11:54]  Richardus Raymaker: good one penny [11:54]  Lani Global: we had a ghost yesterday in my regoin [11:54]  Haku Mhia: what about thranslator ? [11:54]  McCabe Maxsted has lookint into it on his todo list, but not sure when that will happen. Trying to get things done for beta5 [11:54]  BlueWall Slade: mouse gestures? [11:54]  Warin Cascabel: There's not currently a translator in any viewer I know of. [11:54]  BlueWall Slade: lol [11:54]  Haku Mhia: and im shure you could just ri [p the emmeral code for that feature [11:54]  McCabe Maxsted: there's one in snowglobe [11:54]  Penny Lane: Warin: there's a translater in Snowglobe [11:54]  Haku Mhia: emmeral viewer usues google to translate [11:54]  UUID Speaker: The Gearz: 63d44333-e226-0ab3-f711-56b839bc2035 [11:54]  Warin Cascabel: Oh, is there? Cool. [11:54] McCabe Maxsted: emerald got it from there [11:55] Fu Barr: is there a simple way of disabling/removing chunksof features in the viewer - w/o diving into the code? [11:55] Fu Barr: sya for example i need a kiosk style setting w/o build tools. [11:55] Warin Cascabel: Und ich habe meine Zeit verschwendet auf einen Übersetzer HUD ... [11:55]  McCabe Maxsted: fu: other than disabling them in the skin (i.e. the xml code) or in some cases settings.xml, not really [11:56] WhiteStar Magic: will teh Translator get into Imp ? [11:56] Fu Barr: might be handy to have - specially in standalon/private grid situations [11:56] McCabe Maxsted: I'd like to put translation into 1.4, prolly in the first round of feature development [11:56] Haku Mhia: well i suppose you could make the features plugin based and have an extra menu for enableing / disableing them on the preferences menu [11:56] Lani Global: Crash to desktop is still happening often for me, on the weekly. [11:56] Fu Barr: ya -something like that would be pretty fab. [11:57] WhiteStar Magic: We are getting more & more foreign language people in now, almost flood levels... it's getting really to be a poit [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: i have seen it to lani. windows or linux ? [11:57] Penny Lane: Hehe, 1.3 is still just the merge test release really. Getting lots of nice features anyway though :-) [11:57] Lani Global: windows [11:57]  McCabe Maxsted: Lani: can you post your logs and crash dumps? It's really hard to debug "random crashes" without them [11:57]  Lani Global: yes, i will. but every time i look at the logs they are blank. [11:57]  McCabe Maxsted blinks [11:57]  Lani Global: yep. zero bytes. [11:58]  McCabe Maxsted: that's a new one [11:58]  Haku Mhia: one thing i heard about imp was it was suffereing from some memory leaks... have they been identified yet or maby even patched up ? [11:58]  Warin Cascabel: About the only times I've crashed in the past week was when the region dies. [11:58]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [11:58]  Lani Global: << XP SP3 [11:59]  Fu Barr will give the new weekly an outing [11:59]  McCabe Maxsted: haku: the one leak we know about was introduced in the last weekly, and we know where but not particularly why (it's an odd one, only leaks for certain users or in certain ways that we can't see yet). If there are other leaks, I haven't heard about them, but would love to :) [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: warin, the viewer did not crash to desktop ? [11:59]  Fu Barr: i';ve beenusing hippo still saince it was more stable [11:59]  Fu Barr: but have installed the latest weekly on the mac so will see how that goes. [12:00]  Lani Global: i often see ping times to USA of 600mSec to 1.2Sec. perhaps i'm one of the worst cases [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: i have hippo, but its so old and missing important things. i stay with imprudence. hippo = 2e viewer if needed [12:00]  McCabe Maxsted: it's actually been very interesting for me to follow the pattern of feedback from the 1.0 release up through the latest ones [12:00]  Lani Global: ... [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: test [12:00]  McCabe Maxsted: it's a process. As things get fixed, other bugs that are less important become more important, or become more relevant [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ok back sorry phone rang [12:01] Haku Mhia: wb [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: reading back.. [12:02] McCabe Maxsted: for example the people noticing that our media system needs an update now that we've fixed a lot of crash bugs, hehe [12:02] WhiteStar Magic: Wright is doing well today [12:02] Penny Lane: McCabe: no leak in beta4/Linux that I can see. However, I always run with KDU now, so might not see OpenJPEG-derived leaks, like used to happen. [12:02] McCabe Maxsted: penny: yeah, the one I'm talking about is openjpeg related [12:02] Lani Global: the bugs that make the viewer crash to desktop tend to be harsh on the mainstream users... most of us are hardcore so we just keep coming back. [12:02] WhiteStar Magic: openJPG is horrible [12:02] McCabe Maxsted: indeed. I'm impressed it's become as usable as it even has [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: did you guys ever consider trying CSJ2K instead? [12:03] Lani Global: the latest weekly is a lot more stable. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its considerably faster at decoding than openjpeg is [12:03]  WhiteStar Magic: Snoopies csj2k fix works great BTW [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive not had any issues really since then either [12:04] McCabe Maxsted: well, the viewer was already using openjpeg for opensource, so we went with that. I don't know anything about csj2k [12:04] Warin Cascabel: Yeah, they've pretty much vanished for me. [12:04] Lani Global: Snoopy has talked about providing the hooks to enable world map tiles to be set by the estate manager. [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: C2J2K is part of libomv and opensim [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it replaced openjpeg [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: mostly we still partially use openjpeg but hopefully not for much longer [12:04] McCabe Maxsted: is it cross platform? [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: yes [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: works on anything opensim runs on [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: we use it primarily for decoding [12:04] Penny Lane: Neb: CSJ2K is C#, so using it inside the C++ viewer would bloat it beyond belief, and add a huge dependency [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ah [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: true [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its considerably faster though [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont know how much it wouldbloat it up though [12:05] WhiteStar Magic: "Ruckus Stuckus Frickkus Fruckus" Fred Flintstone [12:05] Penny Lane: By a factor of all of Mono :-) [12:05]  BlueWall Slade: I think, only the osDynamicTexture things use the old one [12:05]  Armin Weatherwax: it would add mono as dependency for linux :/ [12:06]  WhiteStar Magic: osDynamicTexture* won;t render properly with openJPG [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya that would suck i guess [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably because of differnt vrsions Whitestar [12:06]  BlueWall Slade: but, it would open the way for Silverlight / Moonlight medai apps [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: we use openjpeg also [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: for osDynamicTexture [12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: yuck, not mkono [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but thats the only place we use it [12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: mono [12:07]  Edie Stewart is Online [12:07]  WhiteStar Magic: neb, look at any osDynText* with a viewer that has openJPG 1.3 or 1.4 and no good [12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: that sound intressting bluewall, means opensim in webbrowser ? [12:08] BlueWall Slade: well, media inside the viewer [12:08] Penny Lane: Maybe the Java JJ2000 implementation can be translated into C++, bet there's some Java translaters around. [12:08] McCabe Maxsted: moreso than we'd get with webkit, you mean? [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, no. then i dont want mono for the viewer [12:08] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) bdeda18: 2010-06-04 18:54:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:09] WhiteStar Magic: OpenWonderland uses j2K Packages [12:09] WhiteStar Magic: but they are Pure Java for that system [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt changing java into C++ be about as hard as C#? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: C# into C++ that is [12:12]  Richardus Raymaker: would be nice if that works. then we can dump mono i hope. [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: well no wouldnt be able to dump mono for the simulators, their concern was making mono a requirement of the viewer [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: which would be not good [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: thats bad to.. but its a dream to not need mono for simulators [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya thats not happening for this project [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: unless they make .net for linux some day [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:13] Richardus Raymaker: thats a dream to.. [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:14] McCabe Maxsted dreams of it raining cookies [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but hey atleast mono isnt abondonware or something [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its really just getting started [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of life in mono still [12:14] Penny Lane: Opensim changing language doesn't really make much sense --- it would be an entirely new project. [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker: yes [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: and performance gains arent worth the effort [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, only 500,000 lines of code to rewrite [12:14] BlueWall Slade: write it in PHP [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it wouldnt be that much better [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: and again be a crashdummy ? :P [12:15] Penny Lane: But there's no reason why a new implementation shouldn't be made and retain protocol compatibility with Opensim. [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya im sure others will pop up [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: absolutely - I would love to see such a thing but it's a pretty daunting undertaking [12:15] Nebadon Izumi: its quite an effort though [12:15] Penny Lane: That's an understatement, hehe [12:15] t an: there is cosimus - a ll compat viewer written in c and lua :) [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:16]  t an: also simian, the minimal 'opensim lite' from scratch in c# [12:16]  Penny Lane: t++ [12:16]  t an: and of course all kinds of servers for other protocols [12:16]  Lani Global is Online [12:17]  Richardus Raymaker: is the borked friendslist opensim problem atm, and lost offline IM's ? [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: it might only be viable to reimplement once things settle down a bit and we actually have open standards, not least between viewer and server [12:17]  t an: i'm somewhat interested in nice-versa - supporting other protocols in opensim :) [12:17] t an: vice-versa even [12:17] McCabe Maxsted nods. Both work on SL, only opensim seems to have the problem [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: t an: there is some stub work for MXP and even Sirikata but not much more than that [12:18] t an: Justin - i think it is hard/impossible to comeup with good standards without prototyping, i.e. making implementations first [12:18] WhiteStar Magic: Friends has ALWAYS been borked and completely re written in 0.7 [12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: t an: I agree strongly - and I think that's a large part of what opensim is doing [12:18] t an: Justing, yep i i know, and those are among the ones i'm interested in .. sirikata perhaps when they get the webgl viewer running :) [12:18] t an: Justin. hep [12:18]  t an: yep, even [12:18]  t an: in realxtend naali work i've now started making a js api for the viewer [12:18]  t an: another area where standards work perhaps happens later [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would so love to see standards but in my heart it is too early [12:19]  Richardus Raymaker: ok, whitestar. thanks [12:19]  t an: like web has dom [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: t an: yep [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: t an: cool [12:19]  t an: which for js is the js api [12:19]  t an: naali can now run this much js :) http://an.org/realxtend/door.js [12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool :). What does the js allow you to do? [12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh hang on, I could actually look at your link ;) [12:20] Richardus Raymaker: think gets time to learn js better. then C(++) is easyer to [12:20] t an: but the plan is to expose things like mouse input and camera controlling etc. there, so a sim can e.g. have app specific cam and other ui stuff that is loaded when you load the scene [12:21] t an: Justin, that one has an entity with custom component data for making a door - the door has two booleans: open/closed, locked/unlocked - and it can't be opened if it is locked [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: t an: Ah so the js you have is equivalent to lsl scripting? [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: i.e. server-side? [12:21] t an: kind of, but for viewer side [12:21] UUID Speaker: The Gearz: 63d44333-e226-0ab3-f711-56b839bc2035 [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: oh cool [12:21] t an: in syntensity server and client have same js api [12:21] McCabe Maxsted: awesome, t [12:21]  t an: we may target for that in realxtend too [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think we need that stuff in the future as part of a more dynamic ui for the viewer [12:21] t an: but i'm now doing it in viewer first [12:21] Penny Lane: Cosimus appears to be a C+Lua implementation of Opensim, not of the client at all --- http://github.com/ayourtch/cosimus [12:22] Penny Lane: I think I'll take a look at that [12:22] t an: Penny, yep, wasn't the talk about alternative compatible clients? [12:22] t an: err servers, sorry [12:22] t an: long day :p [12:22] Penny Lane: Hehe [12:22] t an: was fixing a bike as the last thing [12:22] sim core wonders if he heard there was an in-webbrowser viewer being worked on... [12:22] sim core: *flash [12:23] t an: earlier was adding new stuff to the js api .. js handlers can now listen to events for when mouse is hovering over the entity the handler is for :) [12:23] Penny Lane: Jeez, last thing we need, dependency on webbrowsers [12:23]  Lani Global: i've crashed 6 times so far here in these two meetings [12:23]  t an: sim, well sirikata is writing one using webgl+websockets, in js, for future browsers which support those without plugins [12:23]  sim core: Dependency? [12:23]  sim core: Nice, t-an [12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: Lani try lowering your bandwidth setting a bit [12:23]  Penny Lane: t: that sounds good [12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: what is your viewer currently set for? [12:24]  Richardus Raymaker: i hear cool things. hope it works with opensim to [12:24]  Lani Global is Online [12:24]  WhiteStar Magic: 2:hr 23 minutes and Wright Stands To with excellent service !