Chat log from the meeting on 2014-03-25

 [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: assets dont update, thats probably a misworded message [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Mata Hari: so when that involves mesh the entire mesh deometry is being sent [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, this is a simulator issue -I would be incredibly surprised if anything is going from viewer to simulator [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: inventory does update but inventory is not assets [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: apart from bakes, I guess [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:06]  Mata Hari: yeah, you're probably right Justin....it's a communication between the region and something at OSG [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: a new asset does get written on detach [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: in various circumstances, because information is different embedded in there [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I'm suprised if that triggers a seperate mesh update [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:08]  Dahlia Trimble: it shouldnt write a new asset, it should store state data in inventory [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:08]  Mata Hari: this is just for regular stuff though...if I unwear everything I'm wearing right now (when in my own region) it will have to send all the geometry of the meshes to OSG and wait for whatever response, even though I haven't changed anything [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:09]  Mata Hari: but since mesh geometry can't change after upload it really should never need to send that [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to pop off and do some stuff now [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have some documentation to finish. I'm going to head out. [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think next meeting is still an hour earlier for eu but then dst changes [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:10]  Dahlia Trimble: me too, bye all :) [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Fearghus McMahon: doh...totally forgot about that [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: See everyone next week. [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Fearghus McMahon: tc andrew dahlia and justin [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Mata Hari: bye all [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  fine.Dreadlow @come.2fine.de:8002: bye [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Master Dubrovna: Gotta get back to work....Good day all [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: bye everyone leaving, thanks for coming [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: bye andrew dahlia justin [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: see you all next week, or in 5 minutes on IRC [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:01]  [2014/03/18 12:12]  Fearghus McMahon: c ya Neb [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:12]  Freakys.Clone @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: byeall [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey waves [11:01] [2014/03/18 12:12]  dan banner: bye justin [11:01] Robert Adams: the building should be procedural and change every day [11:01] Mata Hari: I guess next week most of the Euros will be joining us on daylight savings time [11:01] Nebadon Izumi is Online [11:02] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:02] Connected [11:02] vegaslon plutonian could just imagine the building changing while a meeting is going on [11:02]  Robert Adams: that sickness has spread throughout the world [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks [11:02] Mata Hari: hi Justin [11:02] Nebadon Izumi is Offline [11:02] dan banner: hi justin [11:02] Nebadon Izumi is Online [11:02] Mimetic Core: or it relocates every day like the castle in Krull [11:02] Robert Adams: hi cloudy justin [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [11:02] Eliopod Beaumont: hi Justin [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm only happy when it rains [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: 30 march nmata [11:03] Robert Adams: it is raining in RL here :) [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: lol mime. [11:03]  Robert Adams: I'm sure could whip up some virtual rain here if need be [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey smiles [11:03]  Sarah Kline: ) [11:03] Mimetic Core: yes, more lag please [11:04] Caro Fayray: hi Neb and justin [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, it was raining in the uk all of jan and feb so i think I've had enough for a good long while [11:04] Caro Fayray: has rainedall winter in the uk:) [11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Afternoon, everyone [11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: radams: So what i did want to ask you is whether you think it would be possible to have the next opensim release in april [11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: once a few of the worst bugs are nailed down. [11:05]  Robert Adams: do we have a list of bugs? [11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: Just don't release it on April 1. :) [11:05] Caro Fayray: lol [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: no, the only list is the informal one in my head at the moment. I can make a list [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: e.g. there's an issue with a crash going back and forth across a border when sitting [11:06] Robert Adams is remembering previous April Fools source checkins [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: there's also that issue with everything floating a little above the ground [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: Justin. do i hear it correct. you think about a final 0.8 ? [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, the last major release was in setp 2013 and april has often been a good window [11:06] Sarah Kline: is the height thing to do with avatar size? [11:06] Robert Adams: I'm working with Melanie to commit most of the Avination fixes into OpenSim... hope to have the border crossing stuff all in in the next week or so [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: though time might be short even for that [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: i go retest i hope 0.8 soon but first on mega. see how loading and edit works [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: cool. Would that fix this issue with avatar floating as well? [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: i did nut expect a release before summer :O [11:07] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:07] harry Herbit: Are there instructions for upgrading from previous versions or is it just a matter of using the new one? [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think 0.8 needs ot be perfect but it can't have huge regressions [11:07] Robert Adams: 'floating' meaning not standing on the ground? [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have more of a window in April to crank out another release. After that things get dicey [11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: yes [11:08] Mata Hari: I have a question about how Opensim handles mesh objects...easiest to ask vian an example: say you have a single mesh Greek column model of 1000 verts that you want to use to make a building. I can either upload the single column and then place 20 of them on the outline of the building, or I can make the outine via array in Blender and upload as a single item....the question is, would they require identical amount of geometry data sent to the visitor from the sim, or would the single-column one only use about 1/20th of the data of the array one? [11:08] dan banner: some avatars sink some float it depends on height [11:08] Sarah Kline: it seems to vary how high the avatar has made themselves [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: floating, depends how much floating. but i see that problem in sl top, not really a biggy [11:08] Robert Adams: I think the floating problem is terrain height -- standing on a prim works but terrain is displayed a little low [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: most you can correct that in the viewer [11:08] Sarah Kline: ah [11:09]  Robert Adams: that is my understanding at the moment... and it is due to the change in terrain compressor [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: oh ok. From what I heard I thought it was related to avatar size [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: robert in sl floating most appears on mesh [11:09] Sarah Kline: yes you only see that though i think rich [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: chiefly the changes Melanie made [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: I am far from an expert, but I think that the bigger mesh would be more efficient [11:09] Robert Adams: it is probably severl problems interacting [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: fewer triangles, right? [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: ugh [11:10] Robert Adams: avatar height is a kludge with a lot of parts and many tweaks [11:10] Dev Random: Floating is really bad if you have negative elevation. Avatar doesn't like to drop below zero. [11:10] Mata Hari: well, if you did it via sculpt the "geometry" data only gets sent once as a texture for column #1 and the other 19 just get sent prim params [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:10]  Mata Hari: but with mesh I am assuming it's basically identical [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I think negative z should be prevented [11:11] Sarah Kline: most avatars like to max out their heights lol [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not used on linden grid and viewer has some odd bugs at negative z [11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: Sarah, then the need hardhat maby on my new sim [11:11] Mata Hari: hence my suggestion today re handling mesh geometry data as a texture rather than as a prim property [11:11] Dev Random: justincc: I thought so too, but I read in a mantis somewhere that it's a "feature" in OS. [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: if so, it's a feature that won't work peroly anyway [11:11] Sarah Kline: we already have that Mata...sculpties ) [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: and I end up seeing people using negative Z and encountering problems [11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: as a texture? thats what sculpties are [11:12]  Robert Adams: BulletSim sets a ground plane at zero to catch anything that falls through terrain [11:12]  Mata Hari: handling it *like* a texture as opposed to sending it every single time for every instance of it in a sime [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: how does that work if you have a terrain below zero? [11:12]  Mata Hari: and obviously I'm talking about objects that can't be made a scultps [11:12]  Mata Hari: a column was just an example [11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: brb. cat is making a fuss [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: yeah, I don't believe mesh works like that. It sends geom data instead, not like sculpties [11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: which did work with a UV texture, I think [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm whats zero. zero is with terrain the lowest [11:13] Robert Adams: justincc: I don't think you can go below zero... but then I haven't tested negative elevations much [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: it's possible on ODE certainly [11:14] Cuteulala Artis: you cant lower a terrain to -1 [11:14] Dev Random: you can terrain fill -327 [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: if you set terrain at 0, its really lowest point you can go [11:14]  Cuteulala Artis: its definatly zero [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: but I don't think it should be allowed tbh, because of viewer bugs [11:14] Mata Hari: exactly.....which I think is a huge part of the cause for it messing up TPs and the very long lag when unwearing as it sends all of that geometry data from the sim to the asset server [11:14] Robert Adams: I believe taht ODE can do it [11:14]  Dahlia Trimble: mesh and sculpties work pretty much the same way in opensim, except for upload and physics. In fact, the same prim property is used for both mesh and sculptie [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: oh yes right dev [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: but the avatar cant [11:14] Dev Random: you can load terrain with negative elevations too [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: how is mesh communitcated to the viewer? [11:15] Mata Hari: it goes in a very large hex block I think [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: Ah, GetMesh, of course [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: if the prim is a sculpt or a mesh, it has a uuid in the sculpt field of the object update [11:15] Sarah Kline: the thing is to be efficient with your mesh as much as you can [11:15] Mata Hari: kk...so why does it need to resend the entire geometry data when you unwear something? [11:15] Dahlia Trimble: and sculpttype indicates which type of asset to request [11:15] Robert Adams: in SL, mesh is still sent via UDP.... they haven't HTTP'ed it yet [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ah right I see, so it is still requesting mesh assets via uuid [11:15] Robert Adams: not sure about OS [11:16]  Dahlia Trimble: yes [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: so if the viewer already has the mesh it shouldn't download it again [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: really Robert thats odd [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: as there's no need [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: considering sculpty is just a texture [11:16] Mata Hari: shouldn't it just be sending the UUID associated with that geomery? [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: correct [11:16] Cuteulala Artis: Bullet is like a Seismic Monitor it is extremely to over sensitive hehe but that is also good hehe [11:16] Cuteulala Artis: hehehe [11:16] Sarah Kline: its cached [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: if it is, viewer has a bug [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: it doesn't, as we discussed [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: you would think it would go over texture pipeline [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: not from viewer to simulator, anyway [11:16] Cuteulala Artis: hey rober? [11:16] Mata Hari: no, from simulator to asset server [11:16] Cuteulala Artis: robert [11:16] Mata Hari: viewer takes it from cache if it has it [11:16]  Cuteulala Artis: i think i know a way in my form of language that can improve bullet physics [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: it's not sending mesh afaik, it sends object information, because positional information is being encoded there [11:17] Mata Hari: it's sending the entire geometry, not just the prim-params [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: how do you know? [11:17] Robert Adams: what's that, Cute? [11:17] Mata Hari: because I watch it happen [11:17] Dahlia Trimble: if its sending the mesh to the asset server, thats probably a bug [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: you've seen actually packets with the data on the wire? [11:18] Mata Hari: no, but I unwear a 10MB mesh and watch as 10MB of data gets sent to OSG and then 4-5 seconds later the sim gets a response [11:18] Cuteulala Artis: I noticed that physical objects react instantly. for example a physical ball imediatly falls at tis full speed down if you could somehow simulate a real object in rl that falls slow but then gains to max velocity it migth improve the way physical cars work not sure if it make ssence or not [11:19] Mata Hari: if prim params is 10MB then something is hugely wrong [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: but you dont know whats in that 10 mb [11:19]  Mata Hari: true [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: the xml files for large linksets can be extremely large [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: which is a problem in itself [11:19] Mata Hari: single mesh, not a link set [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know, maybe there is a bug [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: and you're not wearing anything else? like scripted attachments? [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: if its a bug, its not healty one [11:20] Mata Hari: I am making no other changes at all [11:20] Mata Hari: and the mesh has no scripts in it [11:20]  Cuteulala Artis: hehehe [11:20] Cuteulala Artis: idk how to call it hehe [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks is back [11:21] Cuteulala Artis: bullet reacts at a instant [11:21] Cuteulala Artis: like in a car [11:21] Cuteulala Artis: if i apply same breaking power as forward power it stops instantly [11:21] Cuteulala Artis: it doesent come to a slow stop like in sl [11:21]  Cuteulala Artis: that causes cars to turn to fast [11:22] Dahlia Trimble: F=MA :) [11:22]  Robert Adams: Cuteulala: I'd hae to play with that... falling is done by applying gravity forces which should interact with the object inetria... it should start falling slowly [11:22]  Mata Hari: I am almost 100% sure that for whatever reason the sim is being told to send the entire geometry data each time you unwear a mesh, even if it hasn't changed at all....hence my persistence in asking whether that's intended and, if not, suggesting the cause be tracked down and fixed [11:22]  Cuteulala Artis: hehehe [11:22]  Cuteulala Artis: think of it as rubber band turning hehe [11:22]  Robert Adams: but it is not like there has ever been a bug before :) [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: cute, you want swamp turning [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: it's in my mind to look now but unfortunatley so is a plie of other bugs [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: ask Melanie, maybe she knows [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: you might even want to post to the mailing list to see if anybody can corroborate or comment further [11:23] vegaslon plutonian: objects are falling slower at a short height then at a great height. they just do not have any wind resistance [11:23] Robert Adams: is there a Mantis for the mesh reloading? [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: she did a lot of the attachment/teleport stuff [11:24] Mata Hari: kk, I can do that [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: I think you created a mantis for this? [11:24] Mata Hari: there's a mantis on it already [11:24] Mata Hari: yeps [11:24] Cuteulala Artis: bullet is so sensitive that if u program a Seismic Monitor using bullet it would beat a real one haha [11:24] Mata Hari: and it might also be a part of the culprit for tp failures [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: mantis 7038, right? [11:25] Cuteulala Artis: i showed robert the first physical coaster that can reach 100mph Ah HAHAHA... :O [11:25] Mata Hari: correct....7038 [11:25] harry Herbit: yes, Caro was offering me a TP and it timed out yet when I used the map I TP'd ok [11:25]  Lissa Paige: o.o [11:25]  dan banner: lures are occasionally an issue [11:26] Lissa Paige: i just made that server region [11:26] Robert Adams: I did some working trying to make BulletSim vehicle perform the same as SL vehicles (http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim/VehicleTuning)... haven't finished, though [11:26] Richardus Raymaker: robert, looks like terrain edit and loading is fixt ? just did quick test with latest release. need to testr more [11:26] Mata Hari: did you get anything useful from my last batch of login data? [11:26] Cuteulala Artis: you are doing a fantastic job so far! [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus its good if your terrain is flat [11:26] Robert Adams: excellent Richardus [11:26] Lissa Paige: [11:25 AM] Could not teleport. Teleport refused: Logins Disabled [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: but if you really rough the terrain up it still loads slow for me [11:27]  Dev Random: Robert, one more terrain issue... Have you noticed this mantis? http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7076. I think your shorts are overflowing there... [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: mata: I think I know what the issue is but I've been waylaid by other things this week so far [11:27] Robert Adams: although I have even more changes :) (sending terrain patches from the avatar out and only sending patches within view distance) [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: If I'm right, the solution will be a little complicated [11:27]  Mata Hari: np....let me know if you want any more data :p [11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: aga nebadon, that terrain is flat [11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:28]  Robert Adams: another fix in the pipe is to send multiple terrain patches in each UDP packet... that will make terrain updates a lot faster [11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: 10 mb is pretty large for a mesh [11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, that's possible and we're not already doing it? [11:28]  Robert Adams: yes, justincc [11:28]  Cuteulala Artis: robert also note that the terrain also makes cars misbehave and bounce sometimes even thot he terrain is 100% flat it seems that it bumps off the ground [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, within the existing protcol [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: Sounds like a good move potentially [11:29] dan banner: ya terrain loading on a large var is painfully slow [11:30] Robert Adams: Cuteulala: yes... the Bullet physics engine has problems with intersecting mesh vertices...also why vehicles tend to bounce when going over flat terrain [11:30] Cuteulala Artis: aurora can load a 8000x8000 var in 3 seconds [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: Mata, do you mean the collada file is 10 mb? the actual mesh asset should be a lot smaller [11:30] Cuteulala Artis: the terrain [11:30] Robert Adams: there is a partial fix in the Bullet forums but I haven't ported it over yet [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: dan tried it on 2048x2048 it takes some time on the older version. not sure on the latest. but i think its good if thats fixt before release [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: the biggest thing that bothers me about Bulletsim right now is floating avatars [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: avatars float like 0.2-0.3 meters above ground [11:31] Robert Adams: Auruora loads terrain quickly because it send multiple patches per packet... that code has been ported ot OpenSim but not hooked in yet [11:31] Cuteulala Artis: ground is a magnet [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: another thing i noticed [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: in the Appearance settings [11:32] Cuteulala Artis: this video i made of teraforming in aurora is mind blowing and im surprised wedont got this yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6LmH8Yv2C4 [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: there is a "Hover" setting [11:32] Robert Adams: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height you can help figuring out the right tweaks [11:32] Caro Fayray: yes [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: which lets you push your avatar down to the ground [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: it appears to only be local [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: others dont see it [11:32]  Caro Fayray: that u can altert o make u not hover above the ground [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: right but only you see it [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: others dont [11:33] Caro Fayray: mm..i saw the change when someone didi t? [11:33]  Sarah Kline: I noticed any sort of terrform on a var slows loading compared to a dead flat one..could the default pimple have a flat sea surface instead the very bumpy surface? [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:33] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: thats the speed we have in 0.7.6.1 for terrain edit [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i need to test it again i was logged in with 2 avatars other day and the other avatar didnt see the change [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: let me try it now [11:33] Sarah Kline: would be loading mostly 0's [11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: do you see it? [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yea, I think the default pimple should be changed [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i should be like 1 meter off the ground [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps still and island but larger and a flat sea surface sounds good [11:34] Caro Fayray: yes i see [11:34] Sarah Kline: ) [11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: why ? i love the default pimple for some reason [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:34]  Caro Fayray: now u oin the ground [11:34]  harry Herbit: no, I'm on firestorm [11:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: Darn viewer crashed again on switching workspaces. [11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: wierd i wonder why my other avatar wasnt seeing it other day [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: default primple is not exactly the nicest initial experience :) [11:34] Caro Fayray: i see u on the ground [11:34] dan banner: force update ;p [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: you have to immediately learn about terrain tools to do any non-trivial building [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: you see me on the ground? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: does anyone see me hovering? [11:34] Luisillo Contepomi: i see you well over the ground [11:35] Caro Fayray: when u walk [11:35] Robert Adams: it is possible that BulletSim needs to take hover height into account but it is not.... wonder where it is stored [11:35] harry Herbit: no your on the ground [11:35] Mimetic Core: i see you hovering about .4 meters [11:35] dan banner: i see you like 1" above [11:35]  Caro Fayray: not standing [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: this is where i should be [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I find it quite hard to tell if avatars are hovering or not [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: i should be standing on the red box [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think this is what I'm talking about though re the hover? [11:35]  Robert Adams: pimple generation is compute intensive... can take a really long time on a large varregion [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh... you're not [11:35]  dan banner: justin turn on shadows [11:35]  Eliopod Beaumont: hovering [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: ya so it must randomly fail [11:35]  Mata Hari: your feet are about 0.3m above the floor in my viewer [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: cause it was failing for me [11:36]  Eliopod Beaumont: same for me [11:36]  harry Herbit: though when I look at ground level you are above the ground [11:36] Richardus Raymaker: aha\ [11:36] Caro Fayray: walk? [11:36] Robert Adams: Mata: is that 0.3m standing on a prim or on terrain? [11:36] dan banner: http://i.imgur.com/Mapmt2Q.png [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i cant move now [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: wtf [11:36] Cuteulala Artis: i bet the floating issue might be related to But Why? cars bounce off the groudn when riding in a smooth surface [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: thanks. But curious, singularity won't allow me to enable them [11:36] Caro Fayray: u raise up when u stand still [11:36] Luisillo Contepomi: because you have a prim over you [11:36] Luisillo Contepomi: doit ghost [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya something is fubar with hover setting [11:36] Mata Hari: Neb's currently standing on a prim [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: that red prim is preventing me from moving [11:37] Caro Fayray: i dont see a prim? [11:37] Mata Hari: but I notice it on solid ground as well [11:37] Luisillo Contepomi: you are now 20 cm over floor [11:37] Luisillo Contepomi: your feet [11:37] Mata Hari: the floor of the building is a prim.... [11:37] Caro Fayray: oh lol [11:37] Caro Fayray: opk [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ok well ya then something is not right with hover [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, nebadon is a tiny bit above the floor [11:37] dan banner: 1.429 inches above the carpet fibers [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: could be something is wrong with avatar position and height [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i was logged in with 2 avatars using the latest Singularity [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: i see the same. maby 0.1 or 0.2 [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and only the avatar setting the hover could see it [11:38]  Cuteulala Artis: hes jesus [11:38] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: The default pimple also comes with strange looking peaks under water, which don't look good [11:38] Cuteulala Artis: that But Why? he float [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: He's a very naughty boy [11:38] Richardus Raymaker: but its on prim. how on terrain ? [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: also the viewer does some IK to try to place the feet on the ground, it might be getting some confusing data [11:38] Mata Hari: on terrain I still hover a little [11:39] Sarah Kline: oh noes my feet sink [11:39] dan banner: wash em [11:39]  Caro Fayray: lol [11:39] Mata Hari: but seems as though I hover higher on prims than on ground so I can't set my avi shape to "fix" it [11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: on terrain your feet should touch the ground even if you stand on a slope [11:39] Robert Adams: I'll have to spend some time with the default avatar retweaking the height computation.. [11:40] Luisillo Contepomi: i have this problems sometimes with singularity but i solver cleaning my cache in both viwers. The problems is the same with animations desync. A avatar is stoped and the other is dancing. One avatar see both dancing and the other only one. [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: It might that ODE now needs to be tweaked as well [11:40] Luisillo Contepomi: never have with firestorm [11:40] Sasha Copperfield: hola a todos [11:40] Sarah Kline: try and make it relate to rl scale maybe [11:40] harry Herbit: did the prims you just created also hover above the ground? [11:41] harry Herbit: no they appear to be on the floor [11:41] Mata Hari: the other thing that I guess can be a partial cause if if the stand animation isn't correctly set to place them on the ground in the first place...I should really test that with the default SL stand just to be sure [11:41] Sarah Kline: 5ft37 [11:41] dan banner: you just need the right size soles [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... nebadon is trying to walk on stilts [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: HEH YA [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: oops caps [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i made stilts [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i guess no one else see them though [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:41] Caro Fayray: they in the floor [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: They go through the floor quite a distance. [11:42] Mimetic Core: just the very tops [11:42] Caro Fayray: yes [11:42] vegaslon plutonian: weird that the hover on rigged mesh works though [11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: The feet appear to be right on top of those prims. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: well apparantly some people can see me? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: does anyone see me hovering? [11:42] harry Herbit: no, your on the stilts [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: well ya but am I up in the air? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: or are my stilts poking through floor? [11:43] dan banner: http://i.imgur.com/cqQJSaN.png [11:43] Eliopod Beaumont: yes [11:43] Mata Hari: through the floor [11:43] Luisillo Contepomi: i have a little avatar then i have much problems with the hight position of my avatar over floor. [11:43] Sarah Kline: through floor [11:43] Luisillo Contepomi: i solve configuring in opensim.ini bulletsim [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya bummer [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon your still above the floor [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. Your feet are right on the top of the stilts but a little above the floor. [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: you might want to compare with 0.7.6.1. This has been broken recently [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i guess we are not capturing and transmitting this data [11:43] harry Herbit: the stilts go below the floor but do not reach the ground below [11:43] Sarah Kline: I think best whatever the avatar height, they should all touch ground [11:43] dan banner: just need longer stilts [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:44] Luisillo Contepomi: singularity have few cache disk space and i have this problem only with singulraity.. never with firestorm (10Gb cache) [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: let me take a screenshot of what it should look like [11:44] harry Herbit: do you lower if you shorten the length of the stilts? [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: there [11:45] Luisillo Contepomi: omg [11:45] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [11:45]  Caro Fayray: right..thats stilts [11:45]  Andrew Hellershanks: wow. THat is *not* what I'm seeing. [11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: oh no nebadon. your stils are 1 flor lower [11:45]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          8ecab21: 2014-03-25 09:53:02 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:45]  dan banner: ya i dont see that [11:45]  Caro Fayray: why do yours go thru the floor? [11:45]  Mata Hari: I sent you a screen of what it looks like on my scree [11:45]  Luisillo Contepomi: you problem is biger. my problems was only by some centimeters [11:45]  Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i guess hover setting in Appearance is borked [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: maybe it never worked [11:45] Sarah Kline: any height adustment in viewer is client side [11:45] Sarah Kline: only [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: the stils are 99% lower on my screen [11:45] Sarah Kline: *hover [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it shouldnt be though [11:46] Caro Fayray: mine too [11:46] harry Herbit: I have a similar problem in SL so it's there as well [11:46] Caro Fayray: only the topsshowing [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: oh really? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: why on earth would they make a setting where only you see it [11:46]  Caro Fayray: the rest is under the floor [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: thats the stupidest thing ever if its the same in SL [11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: i would need to test [11:46] dan banner: maybe its a feel good setting [11:46] Mimetic Core: yeah, it's all about vanity [11:46] Mata Hari: like bouncy boobs was for the last year [11:47] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [11:47]  harry Herbit: bouncy boobs are good [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: well it would solve a lot of these physics hovering issues if it worked right [11:47]  Sarah Kline: sure would [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and i could walk on wood stilts too :( [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:47] Nebadon Izumi hits head on chandelier on his viewer only [11:48] Robert Adams: my avatar has all this great body fat but it doesn't bounce :-( [11:48]  Luisillo Contepomi: are you try with other viewers mister Nebadon? [11:48]  Dahlia Trimble: how could you walk on stilts? attachments are phantom [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: with the hover setting in Appearance Dahlia [11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm using one of the nightly builds of the Kokua viewer [11:48]  dan banner: strange i dont see the chandelier either [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: walking on stilts is actually quite a cool hack [11:48]  Richardus Raymaker: always where thinking everybody see it [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:49]  Robert Adams: need physics for belly fat [11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: explains maby whty some other avatars walk to deep ? [11:49]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: doesn't it take an offet animation? [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i thought so to until I was making a new avatar and had 2 viewers side by side [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i was bummed [11:49] Luisillo Contepomi: mister Nebadon try with firestorm. I have much problems with hight .. sync animationts with singularity 64 [11:49] Sarah Kline: that height info is not sent to server obviously [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: there is an issue with changing height and then walking actually, though that might have been only with ode [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: Luisillo i see it fine [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: its everyone else that doesnt see it [11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: movement would become extremely jerky until relog, though I never looked externally to see if avatar was hovering or other effects [11:50] Luisillo Contepomi: then your viewer is not sending the information about your real position to the region [11:50] Luisillo Contepomi: and then we can not see as you see [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ok let me relog [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i'll relog with 32 bit sing [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: brb [11:51] Nebadon Izumi is Offline [11:51] Mata Hari: it might not send shape updates until relog, perhaps? [11:51] Sarah Kline: it does [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I thin kit's some more exotic error [11:51] Nebadon Izumi is Online [11:51] Robert Adams wonders if I could get better avatar height if I use a cube rather thand a capsule for the avatar shape [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: but i also believe there is an issue right now with avatar heigh and hovering, which will be complicating things [11:52] dan banner: neb your cloud is hovering now [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: cube or oblong? [11:52] Robert Adams knows there is a problem with Bullet's computation of the rounded end of the capsule [11:52] harry Herbit: so not all viewer are equal, perhaps changes need to be tested on all viewers to know which ones can handle new changes [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: how about now? [11:52] dan banner: neb your cloud is hovering now [11:52] Luisillo Contepomi: please rebake [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: give it a second [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: region is still loading [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: now ? i see only a cloud [11:52] Robert Adams: there is a half implemented mesh for avatars... another thing that has not finished debugging [11:53] Robert Adams: needs more than 24 hours in a day [11:53] Sarah Kline: sounds interestinng [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: interesting [11:53] dan banner: same as it was neb [11:53] Luisillo Contepomi: i see you as before [11:53] dan banner: sunk in the floor [11:53] Luisillo Contepomi: some centimeters over floor [11:53] Sarah Kline: same as it ever was [11:53] Caro Fayray: metoo [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ok so its not a 64 bit viewer issue then [11:53] Mata Hari: you're still the same height in my viewer....about 0.3m off the floor [11:53] dan banner: try firestorm [11:53] harry Herbit: same [11:53] Caro Fayray: i see the tops of the stilts [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: hmm let me see if I have firestorm [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec [11:53] Luisillo Contepomi: yes i have much problems with singularity 64 and my hight over floor [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: still the same nebadopn [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ok brb [11:54] Nebadon Izumi is Offline [11:54] Sarah Kline: its not sent to other peoples viewers lol [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I have problems with every viewer I've tried these days. [11:55] Luisillo Contepomi: i report a issue about robust and regions flags ... is not asigned [11:55] Luisillo Contepomi: when restart the grid... robust forget the flags writen in Robust.ini about regions [11:55] Sarah Kline: Robert I swear you get more good looking every week [11:56] Mata Hari: maybe you're drinking more before every meeting? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: bugs don' t generally get assigned until someone picks them up. And unfortunately there are many times more bugs than developers to fix them [11:56] Sarah Kline: lol [11:56] Luisillo Contepomi: yes is true [11:56] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [11:56]  Luisillo Contepomi: much testers few developers [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi is Online [11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:57]  Kev Brinner: hi neb [11:57]  Luisillo Contepomi: thank you to all developers .. all you are doing a very good job.. thank you [11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: thats because the otehr develoeprs are to busy running behind the otehr bugs with wisk [11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: :) [11:57] Caro Fayray seconds that [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a bump road but things improve over time [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: bumpy [11:57] dan banner: now works fine neb [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: god i hate this viewer [11:57] Sarah Kline: omg [11:57] Luisillo Contepomi: beautiful shoes mister Nebadno [11:57] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [11:57]  Mata Hari: now you're on top of your stilts [11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: that looks good neb [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: those... are huge stilts [11:57]  Sarah Kline: its sent to firestorm lol [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm ok [11:58]  Sarah Kline: i see it [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: Singularity bug [11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: That works. I see you standing on stilts with the stilts on top of the floor. [11:58]  dan banner: yup [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll talk with them shortly then [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: really? [11:58]  Caro Fayray: yay...neb is stilt walking [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: huh [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: yea seems so [11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, I've given up on using Singularity. [11:58]  harry Herbit: now I see them [11:58]  Eliopod Beaumont: me too [11:58]  Caro Fayray: i hate singularity [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: the only thing thats good in singularity is that its a bit faster. but i hate the wrong menu design [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Caro, it used to be good but they picked up (?) some bad code that has made it not very useable for me. [11:58] Luisillo Contepomi: i like for build only [11:58] Eliopod Beaumont: its buggy [11:59] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I'm using Hippo \0/ [11:59] harry Herbit: and the fans on my PC don't run as fast [11:59] harry Herbit: using S [11:59]  Caro Fayray: i keep crashingafter a bit if i use it [11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't tried Hippo in quite a while. [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: firestorm is really slow for me [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: getting really bad framerate here [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and I have a Nvidia 780 GTX [11:59] Dahlia Trimble: hippo is ancient [11:59] Richardus Raymaker: the menu's in singularity start to confuse me. its outside in my 5 different viewers [11:59] Luisillo Contepomi: i like firestorm because you can have 10Gb in cache... some regions full in your cache..all more quickly in your viewer... less lag [12:00] Nebadon Izumi feels tall [12:00] Richardus Raymaker: but FS cache still conflicts with FS cache [12:00] Mata Hari: watch out for beavers [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Some vIewers often crash when switching workspaces. Others won't let me cam around when on voice without just about locking up the viewer or the whole computer desktop, or voice chat goes bad soon after I start using it then I can't understand what is being said. [12:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Dahlia, my workstation is dying and cant run my nvidia :/ [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: now I can make a nice 15m tall Mech warrier avatar [12:00] Mimetic Core: now you can windex those screens [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I've actually found viewers very stable on linux [12:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: on an old notebook atm [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: for me the viewer runs much better on Linux than windows [12:01] Richardus Raymaker: hi bluewall. thats bad [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: but most of the time they are just runnin gon an empty island to test something, so maybe don't get a huge workout [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i get much better frame rates in linux [12:01] Dahlia Trimble: Bluewall, same thing happened to me. I think the nvidia x server stuff is buggy [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: I think microsoft hobbles opengl or something i dunno [12:01] Caro Fayray: mines not bad o n fs [12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: firestorm runs good fr me when my hardware is up [12:01]  Caro Fayray: 39 - 42 [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, Send me one of the machines they are stable on. They aren't stable for me under a 32-bit Linux. [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:01]  Luisillo Contepomi: i test your var region here and only detect problems with teleports from out to var region with map. Other type teleports as avatar to avatar have not problems... only using map [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm currently on my windows laptop wand getting a mighty 2.4 fps :) [12:01] dan banner: ya i got decent fps on firestorm here too [12:01] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Dahlia, it's hardware - motherboard [12:01] Luisillo Contepomi: from out var region to var region [12:02] dan banner: 30+ on ultra [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im getting like 13fps [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and it stutters when i move [12:02] Caro Fayray: ouch:( [12:02]  dan banner: what gpu? [12:02]  Sarah Kline: I get 19 [12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: wow. stats here are a bit low. 14.4 fps [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats horrible for a Nvidia 780 [12:02]  Eliopod Beaumont: 9.9 [12:02]  Mata Hari: I'm getting just under 20 on FS ultra [12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: you have shadows on nebadon. and oh FS or newer viewers have alpha bug [12:02]  dan banner: oh 780M [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: I get 40 [12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: nVidia geForce 9500GT [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: gg [12:02]  Caro Fayray: me too mostly [12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: old alpha images if there are to many decrease framerate terrible [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: errr 44 [12:02]  Sarah Kline: i have GTX760 [12:02]  Luisillo Contepomi: 44fps [12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: the new alpha mapping or something seems to not have the problem [12:03]  Ogeywon Stromfield: 9.7 [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: 670M [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ahs [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: aha* [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The 8600GT I had before seemed better than my 9500 (before the 8600 blew out 3 capacitors). [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i turned on Advanced Lighting Model [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: now im getting 40dps [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: fps* [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya much better [12:03] dan banner: ya ALM helps [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya now it feels normal [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: was horrible before [12:03] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [12:03]  Sarah Kline: ) [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: I have everything on except dept of field [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: ALM off, thats horrible [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: where is the advanced light module feature? [12:04] Luisillo Contepomi: its funy mister nebadon you discover a new funy game [12:04] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [12:04]  Caro Fayray: graphics [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its a Firestorm setting Andrew [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: oh [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: in the Graphics settings [12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: no singularity have it to. but maby named different [12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: looking [12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: I get 44ish with ALM on or off [12:05]  Luisillo Contepomi: XD [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: woohoo stilt dancer [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: ALM was off in my copy of FS [12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: singularioty its "advanced lightning model" [12:05]  Caro Fayray: mine too [12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: ah, Kokua already had it on. [12:05]  Caro Fayray: but fpsis higher without it on [12:06]  Richardus Raymaker: well, i hate the bad lightning witout alm. btw nebadon if you turn occlusion on lights are betetr with alm [12:06]  dan banner: ya occlusion smoothes out shadows too [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, got to go away for a bit now. Thanks for the meeting, folks [12:07] dan banner: okay justin [12:07] Sarah Kline: Bye Justin [12:07] dan banner: tc [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya dang that hour went fast [12:07] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: see ya JCC [12:07] Caro Fayray: ty justin for all your work [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [12:07] Eliopod Beaumont: Bye Justin [12:07] Caro Fayray: for us [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: guess the saying is true [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:07] Luisillo Contepomi: mister Robert is experiencing seriously the bulletsim engline with this dangerous dance. [12:07] Luisillo Contepomi: :-) [12:07]  Robert Adams: MAKE IT DANCE, VEGAs!! [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: time flies when you have railroad ties stilts strapped on your legs [12:07]  Caro Fayray: lol [12:07]  Robert Adams: bye Justin [12:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... Kokua viewer is just a few fps faster with ALM Off [12:07]  Mata Hari: bye Justin [12:07]  Eliopod Beaumont: bye all