Chat log from the meeting on 2020-10-13

[11:07 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I have several regions running Yeti on OSGrid, and one of them is crashing with a mono error. I don't recall when I built that version but I wonder if there was a time in the last month when there was a version that had a crash in it?

[11:08 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: The error is Assertion at lock-free-alloc.c:145, condition `sb_header' not met, function:alloc_sb, Failed to allocate memory for the lock free allocator

[11:08 AM PT] Bill Blight: yep, yesterday

[11:08 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: This was puled at least several weeks ago...

[11:08 AM PT] Bill Blight: what is your mono version?

[11:09 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: 6.12.0.90

[11:09 AM PT] Bill Blight: was that what it was when you compiled it?

[11:09 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: yup

[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: after fixing the viewers crash issue i got into a regions crash issue :)

[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but fixed now, we hope

[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but this was just in last days..

[11:10 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I was planning on just pulling and compiling a new one after this meeting.

[11:10 AM PT] Bill Blight: maybe should update mono, and recompile it, I'm not sure but I had an issue with a version of mono

[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and meeting did unoffially started :)

[11:10 AM PT] Ada Radius: Hi Arielle

[11:10 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Hello Arielle

[11:10 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: hi hi

[11:10 AM PT] Bill Blight: Im running 6.12.0.86 here and 6.12.0.93 on my other regions for some reason .90 sticks out in my mind

[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: most code changes where around low level details..

[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: during last week i mean

[11:12 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: When I first got the error I checked and 6.12.0.90 was the latest from the mono devs

[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: evening everyone

[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes that is the current stable

[11:12 AM PT] Bill Blight: First time I got a mono error in a long time was yesterday ...... Thanks Ubit

[11:12 AM PT] Bill Blight: :P

[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i also started making region heights limits a bit more coerent

[11:13 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: hi Gavin

[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: still only really enforced by ubOde

[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: for now..

[11:13 AM PT] Ada Radius: Hi Gavin, Hi steevithak

[11:13 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: When I arrived, Bill and Ubit were talking about doubles vs floats, I missed the start of that. What were you discussing?

[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: terrain heightmap height is limited to -100m to 4000

[11:14 AM PT] steevithak x: howdy all

[11:14 AM PT] Bill Blight: MS is changing some stuff in .NET CORE

[11:14 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Hi Steeve

[11:14 AM PT] Bill Blight: that was what we were talking about

[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: prims and avatars positions are limited to -100 to 50000

[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that 50 000 is a bit absurd.. better stay far from it

[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: kept it that high for now just bc legacy

[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that high you may enconter issues dure to lack of numbers precision

[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: reason why 4000 is a standard max recomendation

[11:15 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: thought it didnt start getting flaky till at least 100k

[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and i reduced max region sizes to 4096

[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now region will also tell that to viewers

[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on opensimExtras section od simulator features

[11:16 AM PT] Bill Blight: The point at which it gets "flakey" is all dependent on how the viewer handles the numbers

[11:17 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: a 4096x4096 var is insane.

[11:17 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: why insane?

[11:17 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: thats 8x8  isnt it?

[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the llsd xml part is

[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ...MinSimHeight-100MaxSimHeight50000MinHeightmap-100MaxHeightmap4000.."

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: math much

[11:18 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Requires the viewer to allocate huge ammounts of memory, download terrabytes of terrain using up all your bandwidth.

[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and was mostly abotu it

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: Â¸.â€¢Â´Â¸.â€¢*Â¨) Â¸.â€¢*Â¨) (`'Â·.Â¸(`'Â·.Â¸  A P P L A U S EÂ¸.Â·'Â´) Â¸.Â·'Â´)  (Â¨*â€¢.Â¸ (Â¨*â€¢.Â¸`â€¢.Â¸

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: (Â¸.â€¢Â´ (Â¸.â€¢Â´ .â€¢Â´ Â¸Â¸.â€¢Â¨Â¯`â€¢                                    â€¢`Â¯Â¨â€¢ Â¸Â¸ `â€¢. `â€¢.Â¸) `â€¢.Â¸)

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: (Â¯`vÂ´Â¯)                                                                            (Â¯`vÂ´Â¯)

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: `*.Â¸.*Â´                                                                              `*.Â¸.*Â´

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: that is a 16x16

[11:18 AM PT] Bill Blight: oops damn gesutues

[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ohh you already did.. how polite of you..

[11:19 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: 256 regions then

[11:19 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: thats ok then

[11:20 AM PT] Bill Blight: viewers tend to start having resource issues at anything over a 4x4 but, on modern PC's this may take a while to notice

[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: man games use 2km or less

[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: many

[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 1km typical

[11:21 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: i've done 10x10 for  car racing and seemed to be ok

[11:21 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: No matter how modern and fast and full of memory your PC gets, bandwidth does not increase by Morre's Law. You will have lag issues just from dowloading terrain.

[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( some will pretented to have more, because they dinamicly load things.. )

[11:22 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: 256 flat and empty  varegions doesnt take a lot of memory for the server

[11:22 AM PT] Bill Blight: many games fool you into thinking the area is bigger than it is, due to LOD and putting you on a "treadmill"

[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: doing that in SL would set you back ... $24 000/mo

[11:23 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: This could be solved by a viewer that is smarter about fetching and storing terrain. I'm going to hold my breath until a new viewer is written.

[11:23 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: or didnt the last time i tried the 10x10

[11:23 AM PT] Bill Blight: Not until we get a much better renderer

[11:23 AM PT] Bill Blight: OpenGL32 is still an issue

[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MIA you mean Bill

[11:24 AM PT] Bill Blight: 10x10 should be ok, I use an 8x8 on a regular basis and don't have any issues,

[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on consoles and possible gpus ppl consider the cpu 2 slow loading from ssd and made gpud read directly

[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thats how streaming time matters a lot

[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a game i play now and there  on one update started to be unplayable on my box

[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they fixed it fast

[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and the fix was to agreegate a ton of small files

[11:26 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: not opensim then :p

[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on a single one

[11:26 AM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi

[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that made the game work fine as before on spinning disks

[11:26 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: Hi Selby

[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just the disk seeks looking for folders info made the game useless

[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah streaming matters a lot

[11:27 AM PT] Bill Blight: be interesting when PC viewers start changing the renderer, wonder if it will nuke

[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and we have Network one.. you all well know the effect

[11:27 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: didnt have a cache ?

[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pc viewers?

[11:28 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: does opensim use the viewer cache?

[11:28 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: for inventory?

[11:28 AM PT] Bill Blight: Well Mac is already changing to MAC's new renderer isn't it Gavin?

[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc it does

[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: always did

[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and mesh/textures ones

[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well if not it will be dead on new HW

[11:29 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: well just wondered because sometimes when i jump to lbsa  it takes a long time before i see my avatar

[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: very old thing.. since ever i guess

[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the more recent one is objets cache

[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: AFAIK nobody has even attempted to write that renderer let alone viewer

[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that we have since hmm 0.9.1.0 ??

[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well since more recent time :)

[11:30 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Metal only works with Objective-C or Swift

[11:30 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the viewer needs to be rewritten ground up

[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: viewers have new rendering code

[11:30 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: why would it take a long time for my own avatar to  render then?

[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess vulcan is kicking in also

[11:30 AM PT] Ada Radius: What Gavin said

[11:30 AM PT] steevithak x: I've noticed all viewers seem to be forks of the SL viewer code. Are there no current projects to write an OpenSimulator viewer?

[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: there was a vulcan on metal thing.. apple killed that?

[11:31 AM PT] Ada Radius: A few of us are thinking about new viewer. My POV is the avatar

[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple is not going to let it run at all

[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will have to be system level driver and Apple, ism never going to sign it

[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well pains for viewer devs

[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess all will wait of ll solution

[11:32 AM PT] Bill Blight: I prefer if everything around me and other avatars render first, I tend to not forget what my avatar looks like since it last rendered

[11:32 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: no but  still your own avatar should be in cache no?

[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: own avatar does not matter on first person view

[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If LL will have to write a new viewer, they may opt to not open source it like the Sansar one

[11:33 AM PT] Ada Radius: Avatar needs to be redesigned from ground up: topology, armature, morphs, material rendering

[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ruth avatars rez fast

[11:33 AM PT] Bill Blight: LOL

[11:33 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: the system one you mean?

[11:33 AM PT] Ada Radius: yes

[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i mean ruth ruth as in system avatar :)

[11:34 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: well so why is that and not the mesh one?

[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( sorry Ada not yr ruth )

[11:34 AM PT] Ada Radius: mesh bodies, as Ubit likes to point out, are a nasty hack

[11:34 AM PT] Bill Blight: well if you get new asset id's when you HG jump, the new location has to add them back to the cache, cache does expire, it is not immutable

[11:34 AM PT] Ada Radius: my Ruth is a hack too. A less resource heavy hack, ya

[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:34 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: but  my viewer has its own cache right?

[11:34 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: you meaning  the region cache now

[11:34 AM PT] Bill Blight: yes but it is told WHAT to cache by the region

[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: had a chat with Beq from fs about improving system avatar

[11:35 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: why would the region do that for my avatar?

[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: she does not see any point.. no idea why

[11:35 AM PT] Ada Radius: is Beq open to the idea?

[11:35 AM PT] Bill Blight: and if the files are too old, they get replaced

[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not really

[11:35 AM PT] Ada Radius: ya. it's a booger

[11:35 AM PT] Bill Blight: your avatar does not exist on ALL grids at the same time

[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think you had chats with her abotu that before also :)

[11:36 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: but it exists in my viewer

[11:36 AM PT] Ada Radius: but worth exploring before we throw our hands up in despair and go play on a different engine

[11:36 AM PT] Bill Blight **facepalms**

[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well on a network streaming thing system avatars ARE the solution

[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: different engine means all content must be redone

[11:36 AM PT] Ada Radius: yup

[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are you suggesting Sansar 2?

[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no not really

[11:37 AM PT] Bill Blight: Not if they go Vulkan, as it supports legacy OpenGL from what I understand

[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ther is no need to change XML defines for example, to have a big improvement

[11:37 AM PT] Ada Radius: but if it's done right, will be easier to make new content. Or have both system avatars in a new viewer for a while, until content creators catch up

[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those llm do need it

[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: more tris on right places with fixes weights.. improved morphs

[11:38 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is needed is the ability to apply an arbitrary rig to a mesh

[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: improved masks.. bumpmap

[11:38 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: why even have a system avatar  if noone uses it?

[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all that

[11:38 AM PT] Bill Blight: not a zillion polys/tris either

[11:38 AM PT] Ada Radius: yes, better and less wasteful UV maps, bumpmaps all of it

[11:39 AM PT] Ada Radius: I've been playing with it. Can be done, including hair and skirt for around 30K verts

[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those files should apply directly witout code chages except on baking

[11:39 AM PT] Bill Blight: almost everyone here is using a system avatar

[11:39 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: or make it better  so a mesh one is not needed

[11:39 AM PT] Ada Radius: yes

[11:39 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: easy for a male avi

[11:39 AM PT] Ada Radius: no

[11:39 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: female ones suck

[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: local baking code does need retouch, namely because it assumes fixes sizes on the source masks etc

[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every male mesh looks like it has female hips if you try it make anything but anorexic

[11:40 AM PT] Ada Radius: male is a morph of female, badly done

[11:40 AM PT] Ada Radius: but same topology in a different shape

[11:40 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: The system avatar mesh is already on your computer, so it does not have to be downloaded over the internet.

[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well the meshs possible alse need weights connected to the relevant bento bones

[11:40 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: so should be easy to replace with one that doesnt have lumpy breasts

[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess original don't have that

[11:40 AM PT] Ada Radius: yes.

[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: retopology is the term?

[11:41 AM PT] Ada Radius: none of it is easy.

[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well th number of morphs is scary

[11:41 AM PT] Ada Radius: retopology is the term, but there are other much better models out there, free, with decent licensing. I'm playing with MBLab right now - male and female have the same topology

[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well keep the main XML things is a must to avoid major code changes

[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thats other stage

[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: imo

[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie in order to have something doable fast

[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: faster

[11:43 AM PT] Ada Radius: ya. It can be done. Kayaker has explained why I need to keep all the same names. We could eliminate some of the morphs

[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: improved backes resolution is something we may get..

[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lets see

[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bakes even

[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: depending on Beq or gavin mood :p

[11:45 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it depends more on my ability to concentrate at all than mood

[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: of no need for eyes to have 4k resolution :)

[11:45 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: ((@Bill, any chance of moving that viewer stats hover text as it blocks/obscures the Bubble text of people on the other side of the bar

[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: who uses bubbles of text?

[11:46 AM PT] Bill Blight: ^^

[11:46 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: i do

[11:46 AM PT] Bill Blight: Yes Arielle I'll move it just for YOU ..

[11:46 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: thank you Bill

[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thats something i totally ignored..

[11:46 AM PT] Bill Blight: we know you are the center of your universe

[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: soce they do a mess on view

[11:47 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: of mine yes

[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: since

[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i like text all on a window

[11:47 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: i try to minimize the windows

[11:48 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: sorry, i didnt think it was such a big thing

[11:49 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: mostly  i use the bubble text to see who is typing

[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not a big thing

[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: use if you like

[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but better not ask ppl to change regions to make them more visible :)

[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you can also relocate the camera

[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i do it all the time when sitting

[11:51 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: i could but the viewer seems to like making me the center of my view(univers) by default

[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or just turn off rendering types

[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah

[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you have a blank screen with text bubbles

[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and camera on sits most time is just odd

[11:52 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: where is that option Gavin?

[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Advanced

[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Rendering Types

[11:53 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: oh have to uncheck all of those?

[11:53 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: try turn off Simple

[11:53 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: oh wow

[11:55 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: huh seem to be able to derender everything but hover text ;)

[11:55 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can turn that off elsewhere

[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bet good fps also

[11:55 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: oh it is

[11:55 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe

[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well getting close to end time

[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: any news abotu opensim ?

[11:56 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: where is Andrew?

[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or about..

[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lost at rl

[11:57 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: you tell us

[11:57 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: you are the new creastor

[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: already did my side of news

[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you where talking while i did it

[11:57 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: i was looking at the throttle stuff in opensimdefaults.ini

[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Oh here is andrew

[11:57 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Andrew has a contractor coming today, apparently arrived at meeting time.

[11:58 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: is that turned off  ?

[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:58 AM PT] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew

[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just in time to close the meeting :)

[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, the contractor has come and gone. They arrived a few minutes before the start of th emeeting.

[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:58 AM PT] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew

[12:00 PM PT] NPC 2014 Jeep Wrangler - Driveable - Beach Version v6: :: is tuned for ubODE

[12:00 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew

[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll check the log to see what I missed.

[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well no news/questions about opensim ?

[12:01 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i did ask but you havent answered yet

[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did.. when you where talking over me

[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I like the commit message "coff cofff cofff". :)

[12:01 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i did check the log  and didnt see any answer

[12:02 PM PT] NPC 2014 Jeep Wrangler - Driveable - Beach Version v6: :: is tuned for ubODE

[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I see some updates to libomv and a couple of changes related to asset handling.

[12:02 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i asked if the  thropttle stuff in opensimdefaults.ini was turned on by default

[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ip do you mind not play with cars during the meeting?

[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thnx

[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes part of those are ignored

[12:03 PM PT] ip den: sorry

[12:03 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: part?

[12:04 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: what part?

[12:05 PM PT] Arielle Popstar assumes there is no wiki page for throttles in opensim?

[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the now irrelevant parts

[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: possible should remove them

[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: even if active.. not for users to mess with

[12:06 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: you mean hide?

[12:07 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: if i am running a server, i am not by definition a user

[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: you are for me :p

[12:08 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: makes you feel good i bet having that sort of power :)

[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl that run regions or grids are opensim users

[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just that

[12:09 PM PT] Bill Blight: if you care to mess with settings you shouldn't, you can take the time to go look where you shouldn't to find them

[12:09 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: are throttles  because there are other parts of the code that cant handle full speed?

[12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: They are to make other parts of the code play fair with the other parts.

[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: most are default values for VIEWERS defined throttles

[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gezz

[12:11 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer can only do so much work between frames

[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and other things that should not have been made user option ever

[12:11 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: including loading stuff from the server

[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeha a lot of lag is viewer side

[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like the missing terrain and prims problem was

[12:12 PM PT] Bill Blight: They are their to make everyone gets their fair share, and one overly self centered person does not steal it all when they land ..

[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: viewers just skipped things they had no time to rez

[12:12 PM PT] ip den: What about a server to server connection?

[12:12 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: when i am alone on my region then there should be no issue with me getting all the bandwidth

[12:12 PM PT] ip den: Viewer with a server build in?

[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i had to slow down lludp on that :)

[12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: still your viewer can only do so much work

[12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no point in flooding the viewer with content it cannot process

[12:13 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but it can doi a lot more work then the throttles seem to allow

[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: after i did speed it up a bit lol

[12:13 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and that puts the onus on viewer devs to  enhance the viewer

[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: specially when viewer wil just skip it and never rez

[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer generates a new frame every 16 ms

[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: remember the missing terrain on 0.9.0 ??

[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i think was 0.9.0...

[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for each frame 14 ms or more goes to the rendering

[12:14 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: seems silly to slow the system down because of a current bottleneck sdomewhere

[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the remaining work will have to be done in the 2 ms between frames

[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is why there are throttles

[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: even so not enough

[12:15 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: because of missing terrain?

[12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: missing terrian is a symptom of overloaded viewer

[12:16 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: viewer or hardware for the viewer?

[12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: combination

[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well 15 min past time

[12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sin ce the viewer use OpenGL 2.1 it cannot take very good advanatage of modern GPUs

[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: andrew wanna close, if ppl has no more opensim issues?

[12:17 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: andrew only been here 15 minutes...he is just warming up his seat :P

[12:17 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: informal chat can go on, ofc

[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I was going to ask Arielle one question first.

[12:18 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: unusual for you to be concerned  how long the meeting goes :)

[12:18 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: shoot

[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, What problem, or slowness, are you having that you believe is caused by the throttles?

[12:19 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: slow loading of  avatars

[12:19 PM PT] Bill Blight: no let's be honest

[12:19 PM PT] Bill Blight: slow loading of YOUR avatar

[12:19 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i was amazed recently at a dance with 50 people and when i  went there, the scene all loaded in 2 minutes

[12:19 PM PT] Bill Blight: which is all you care about

[12:20 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: usually  in Lbsa if there are 10 people, it takes 5 minutes or more

[12:20 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, what part of the avatar was taking too long to load?

[12:20 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LBSA is dead slow

[12:20 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: that tells me the dance region had no throttles active

[12:21 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: the mesh body took the longest Andrew

[12:21 PM PT] Bill Blight: LBSA usually loads in less than 60 seconds for me, even when busy ...

[12:21 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: dentures, wiggs all over the placve

[12:21 PM PT] Bill Blight shrugs

[12:21 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I wear a system avatar and I see all mesh avatars loading slowly at crowded events. I'd like that to be faster.

[12:21 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LBSA can be a grotesque sight before all rezz in

[12:22 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: point is that it is possible to be substantially faster

[12:22 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and certainly was in past

[12:22 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: The dentures and wiggs is strange, that means the mesh has loaded but not the parameters to set size and location.

[12:23 PM PT] Bill Blight: people didn't have bazillion poly avatars in the past

[12:23 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Dentures in an avatar? Interesting.

[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: mesh download is progressive

[12:23 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: people used to have flexi hair that  weighs more then mesh avatars

[12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL mesh avatars even have a brain even if it is never visible

[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: viewer may ask for med resolution then decide needs high

[12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: completely wasted geometry

[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so we see the lower rez in odd places until it gets what it wants

[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or something like that

[12:24 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I think that brain is the hair part of the system avatar.

[12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep

[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: irritating..

[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: brain is a trade prim

[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: "brain"

[12:25 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a tricky thing to find that sweet spot between fast and fair. So many parameters involved.

[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and don't trust it.. it cames with no bateries..

[12:25 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: so Andrew, my question is  why i cannot fiddle with throttle settings for my own grid/region

[12:25 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: why are these settings hidden?

[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some are a most hidden in plain viewe

[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl only needs to know how to read

[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and view also..

[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and untwiddle when something goes wrong

[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah that also

[12:27 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I would hazard a guess that if they were all easily accessible many people would just turn them all off then complain about problems with their regions poor performance when the region is full or with someone who has a particularly heavy avatar.

[12:27 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: perhaps an wiki page woul;d be beneficial?

[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not really

[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is just like averything that can be tweaked in the viewer

[12:28 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: they do anyway Andrew, especially when it is throttled

[12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but you can completely hose it up too

[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: at several points wiki does and must tell people to read current ini files

[12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so most of the vieer settings are not documented anywhere but in the code

[12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer*

[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no point on repeated information

[12:29 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The source code is always available if someone really feels like testing the affects of changing throttles and benchmarking them under various types of loads.

[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: special some that may change

[12:29 PM PT] ip den: Maybe we all should give a hand on the wiki page

[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: mmm standard answer from the devs

[12:29 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: fork it if you dont like it

[12:30 PM PT] Bill Blight: that is the point of Open Source software, and since the devs work for FREE, there is no reason for them to bow to demands ..

[12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: more like test it and if it makes sucha massive difference, make a pull request for it to be changed

[12:30 PM PT] ip den: thats true Bill

[12:31 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: not a demand but asking for an explanation  and  an answer to where the  config options are

[12:31 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: it is OPENsource software after all

[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: assuming tests did consider all use cases..

[12:31 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Anyone who can come up with a better way to set the throttles should do it and report back on what was done so the main code base can be improved.

[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like 10 avatars arriving "at same time"

[12:31 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the viewer Advanced -> Show debug settings

[12:31 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: how often does that happen Ubit?

[12:31 PM PT] Bill Blight: Config options are in the INI files, if you are too stubborn to read them, then you don't need to be fucking with the settings either

[12:31 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: this isnt S/L

[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: happens on all those instances where region should hold  and not fail :)

[12:32 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and never will be if they if it is kept artificially slow

[12:33 PM PT] ip den: But I think core devs should be open about what part of the code does what? :?

[12:33 PM PT] ip den: Labeling? Referencing

[12:34 PM PT] Bill Blight: you can look at the code yourself, it is not the devs job to explain the code, if you have interest in looking to the code, you should learn to understand the code ..

[12:34 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: I like promoting Opensim but its hard when s/l people  complain how slow it is to load

[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( and not play with cars during a meeting :p )

[12:34 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL is glacial in comparison

[12:34 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: not from what i have seen

[12:35 PM PT] Bill Blight: if I had SL's budget, opensim would not be slow either

[12:35 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: its faster again the past  month or so

[12:35 PM PT] Bill Blight: much of that is server and bandwidth

[12:35 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: poinbt is Bill, Opensim didnt used to be this slow

[12:35 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The few viewer devs currently working on the code have other things to work on apart from spending weeks or months adjusting throttle settings and testing their effects under various loads, network loads, and with different viewers.

[12:35 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: and sometimes on occasions, isnt

[12:35 PM PT] Bill Blight: you can't compare, a small private server, to SL's server farn , that is insanity just to try to ..

[12:35 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My Linden home may take minutes before it starts rezzing the scene

[12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even a few more to complete

[12:36 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: that tells me there is hidden variabilities that are hard to access

[12:36 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sl is moving from own farm to AWS

[12:36 PM PT] Ada Radius: Got to go, lively discussion. Ty all

[12:36 PM PT] Bill Blight: yep

[12:36 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: now servers also

[12:36 PM PT] Bill Blight: and getting slower

[12:36 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, You seem passionate enough about the issue to take it on as a project and see what changes you feel need to be made.

[12:36 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: @ip den: the wiki is also open, if you want to add a section to it you can do that.

[12:36 PM PT] Bill Blight: last time I logged into  SL it took 10 minutes for the region to load

[12:36 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ada.

[12:36 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: access to the throttles

[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: how many avatars on it Bill?

[12:37 PM PT] Bill Blight: about a dozen

[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: oh

[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: long time

[12:37 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: indeed.

[12:37 PM PT] Bill Blight: you can really tell when you hit one of their "cloud" regions

[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: but like opensim  sometimes, they have network issues

[12:37 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem with AWS is you will be assigned a server for the CDN that is closest to you geograpically

[12:37 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: especially on weekends

[12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for some reason ll decide to make BOM

[12:38 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if that server has not seen  your region earlier that day or hour, it has to be hauled up from disk somewhere in the deep

[12:38 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: BoM does lower complexity on averafge

[12:38 PM PT] Bill Blight: I see them sharding it, and if they do that, there goes the social aspect down the drain ..

[12:38 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: what is sharding?

[12:38 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: sharding?

[12:39 PM PT] Bill Blight: sharding is an old DB term for breaking into smaller instances ..

[12:39 PM PT] Bill Blight: sharding is what they did with sansar

[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I haven't run across that one before.

[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well on last viewers LL killed the moon look

[12:39 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: multiple asset servers?

[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i so hate that dark moon

[12:39 PM PT] Bill Blight: no multiple identical instances

[12:40 PM PT] Bill Blight: so not everyone lands on the same instance

[12:40 PM PT] Bill Blight: it is what they did with sansar because the cloud servers could not handle it

[12:40 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: isnt that how Intel;s DSG worked?

[12:40 PM PT] Bill Blight: no

[12:40 PM PT] Bill Blight: not even the same thing

[12:40 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I need to run also...

[12:40 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: tc Kay

[12:40 PM PT] Bill Blight: with DSG you can still communicate between instances

[12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers Kayaker

[12:40 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Bye all!

[12:41 PM PT] Bill Blight: shards are separate but equal

[12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker

[12:41 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I need to run too -- bye all

[12:41 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: waves at Selby

[12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bye

[12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Selby. Thanks for coming.

[12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Sel

[12:41 PM PT] Bill Blight: i'm out as well, dogs are doing the pee pee dance

[12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe

[12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)

[12:41 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: i'm doing the pee pee dance too so i am off

[12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Now would be a good time to close the meeting.

[12:42 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:42 PM PT] Arielle Popstar: waves

[12:42 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye Popstar