Chat log from the meeting on 2011-06-21

[10:01] Dutchy Daredevil is Online [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [10:03] Dutchy Daredevil: hello alll [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dutchy [10:04] Dutchy Daredevil: Hello Neb [10:04] Richardus Raymaker: hello otaku [10:05] Bri Hasp: Hmmm.. I'z slow here [10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi bri [10:06] Bri Hasp: G'Morn [10:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems that Justin can't sit still today. :-) [10:06] Nebadon Izumi: heh hello Bri and Andrew [10:06]  Bri Hasp: lag checks maybe... [10:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Nebadon [10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I was curious [10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: sim stats look good [10:07]  Bri Hasp: WP seems slower today [10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: seemed ok when I logged in [10:07]  youtube player button: You are not the owner of this screen!! [10:07]  BlueWall Slade: Hello [10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: seems ok to me [10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi bluewall [10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: hello BlueWall [10:08]  Bri Hasp: 25-30 fps.. should be ok [10:08]  Master Dubrovna: hummm I don't see Bluewall, Dutch or Bri [10:08]  BlueWall Slade: it seems slow loading prims [10:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see them either [10:09]  BlueWall Slade: /wave [10:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hi bluewall [10:09]  BlueWall Slade: Hi [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya they are clouds [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: oh there is bluewall [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: I have a question/problem for you [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: sorry, lots of lcouds right now [10:09] Bri Hasp: I see all.. but me [10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i only see 2 [10:09] Richardus Raymaker: or complete invisible [10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall appeared [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: ok i zoomed out and in 2 clouds remaining here to [10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya generally rewearing your avatar/outfit fixes it [10:10]  Richardus Raymaker: yes blue fine [10:10] BlueWall Slade: everyone is rezzing for me, just pretty slow [10:10] Richardus Raymaker: bluewall, you made the regionready.. i found a little problem. [10:11] Master Dubrovna: Bluewall has appeared but Dutch and Bri are still clouds [10:11] BlueWall Slade: I didn't make it, just added some things [10:11] BlueWall Slade: but, what did you find? [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, the sim thinks dutch and bri's textures haven't been updated properly [10:11] Richardus Raymaker: If you have 2 sims next to each other say SIm A and B, and i go stay in sim B and restart sim A. then after complete restart it dont appear back in world. i dont see it from sim B [10:11] Bri Hasp: will switch viewers brb [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: k [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i saw the same thing Richardus did [10:12] BlueWall Slade: ok [10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: its not sending the up signal to child agents or something [10:12] BlueWall Slade: restarting from the same instance? [10:12] Nebadon Izumi: no [10:12]  Richardus Raymaker: no different ones [10:12] BlueWall Slade: ok [10:13]  BlueWall Slade: I'll look into that. [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: i have been next door at Orvonton [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: ok [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: and restarted Wright Plaza [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: and i never see it [10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: i can Teleport [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: then its visible [10:13] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise i have to relog into Orvonton to see Wright Plaza [10:13] BlueWall Slade: ok, yeah, sounds like it needs to update the neighbor regions when it is enabled [10:13] Richardus Raymaker: relog fix it yes, but annoying :) [10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I think so BlueWall [10:14]  BlueWall Slade: yeah, shouldn't have to relog - that sux [10:14]  Richardus Raymaker: if thats fixt i can enable it :) [10:14] BlueWall Slade: I think it works with multi-region instances [10:14] Juicy Babii thanks the server for the textures coming in [10:15]  Bri Hasp: oh well [10:15] Nebadon Izumi: have you tried rewearing your avatar Bri? [10:15] Bri Hasp: on Imp I did [10:16] Bri Hasp: on Kirsten now [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: it seems clouds are a bit less worse now.. [10:16] Richardus Raymaker: but, thats what i saw on lbsa [10:17] Richardus Raymaker: question, why does opensim not have a command to change master avatar ? i fixt it other way now, and can change it easy from db, but still sounds usefull function [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: the sim knows the uploaded textures have a problem in some way. but there isn't enough code yet to pin down the exact issue [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: if you mean the esate manager then yes, there should be a command. It's just that nobody has done it yet [10:18] Bri Hasp: at least I get a map here on Kirsten V2 [10:18]  Richardus Raymaker: yes justin, i mean estate manager. sorry. still confuse both [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: I think you mean estate owner [10:18] Nebadon Izumi: its easy to change estate managers [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: wish he could write C#. maby someday [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: yes, the state owner. [10:19] Juicy Babii: C# is like java only sideways [10:19] BlueWall Slade: M$Java [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: ig program work dont come out anyway. hope it comes back/ neve rdone java :O [10:21] Bri Hasp: will switch off 3D.. see if that helps decloud [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: only bri is a lonly cloud [10:21] BlueWall Slade: Bri - do you see any of your textures blurred? [10:21] Bri Hasp: nope [10:22] Bri Hasp: just Avs.. grey or clouds [10:22] BlueWall Slade: in the past, I have found that if all the parts of the avatar do not get decoded/downloaded/baked, then viewer never sends an update [10:22] BlueWall Slade: your avatar [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: btw i think imporudence 1.4prebeta1 works a bit betetr to. only sad i dont have inworld sounds [10:24] Juicy Babii observed a weird bug with inworld sounds ... forget how it 'fixed itself' [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: its not PG setting, its set to pg/mature/adult already [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: or do i need to set it on pg ? [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: aha, its PG [10:25]  Richardus Raymaker: [10:25] Richardus Raymaker: ok, fixt [10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it's easy to change estate managers? From within the viewer? [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: yes [10:27] Bri Hasp: can add or delete managers [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: World > Region/Estate [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: Justin yoiu can easy add estate managers yes [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: Then the Estate tab [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ah ok, thans [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks [10:28] Nebadon Izumi: but its impossible to change estate owner without editing the database [10:28] Richardus Raymaker: right [10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: right [10:29] Richardus Raymaker: and 1 database for all region that store estate settigs is not a good choice to (i did) reverted back to old way now its easy to change the owner uuid in database [10:29] Bri Hasp: will try Hippo [10:29] Richardus Raymaker: oh hippo, need to install that one [10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: bri: I'm not sure it's a viewer issue. opensim is unhappy about one or more of your appearance items. Unfortunately, it's not possible to get more detail yet [10:30] Richardus Raymaker: best to wear the red cloud fix avatar and then try to go back [10:30] BlueWall Slade: Jucy is a cloud too [10:31] Richardus Raymaker: yes [10:31] Juicy Babii: aww I didn't mean to be cloudy! :) [10:32] Andrew Hellershanks groans [10:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: I need to cut out of here a bit early today. I have a couple things I'm in the middle of doing for an SL8B exhibit. [10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: i tried going to SL8B yesterday it was really slow [10:33]  BlueWall Slade: you can take off all your clothes, change skin, eyes, shape, etc. then wear another outfit [10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: you want to see a ton of clouds [10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: go visit SL8B [10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:33]  BlueWall Slade: I can imagine [10:34]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe, need to try to look there. but SL is very bad with many things. i think all bugs moved from opensim to sl :) [10:34] Master Dubrovna: lol [10:34] BlueWall Slade: next year, they can host it on OpenSim servers and have the best one yet :) [10:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: It usually is a bit slow at SlnB. Can be quite laggy. There is an article about SL8B about how to change viewer settings to minimize lag since a lot of lag can be client side. [10:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine there are a lot of avatars on those servers [10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i was at one of those 4 sim corner spots [10:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. There were 113 at one point in 4 sims just for opening ceremonies. [10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: there was probably like 100+ avatars in view [10:35]  Andrew Hellershanks: in 4 -> across 4 [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: id say 50% of them were grey [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and i saw atleast a dozen clouds [10:35]  Richardus Raymaker: i never understand why (if the do) LL not get seperate servers for sl8b [10:35]  BlueWall Slade: we didn't ask for a place to put up a display? [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: nah [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: but about birthdays. how's the OSG one going ? [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: i cant even be bothered in SL anymore honestly [10:35] Andrew Hellershanks: when is OSG's birthday? [10:35] Nebadon Izumi: 1 month [10:35] BlueWall Slade: heh, I didn't know it was on [10:35]  Juicy Babii: nice [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: right nebadon, always asking myself what im doing there when i login.. [10:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't spend a lot of time in SL but I'm editor for an SL magazine so I'm helping with an exhibit this year. [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: I dont mind exploring around SL once and a while [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: but i cant be bothered to participate in anything they do anymore [10:36] Richardus Raymaker: yes. its good to. then you know whats wrong :O [10:36] Nebadon Izumi: I was a bit disapointed that SL8B sim is identical to last year [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: they didnt change anything [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: the exhibits are of course different [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: but the base sim itself is 100% identical [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think they ever did that before [10:37] Richardus Raymaker: i think that never change [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: nah SL5 and SL6B were drastically different theme [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: but 7 and 8 are identical [10:38] BlueWall Slade: they should just have a giant money bag and let people walk by and throw huge handfuls of money into it [10:38]  Richardus Raymaker: sl5 did have a complete landscape if i remember [10:38] Nebadon Izumi: they proabbly just dont have the same level of internal involvment they did previous years [10:38] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I think sl8b is different this year but I missed a lot of SL7B. All parcels are 32x32 and there are several of the 21 sims that are mostly empty as they are used for some LL functions [10:39] Andrew Hellershanks: sl5 and sl6 were quite different [10:39] Nebadon Izumi: i also heard like a few days before SL8B 2 of the main organizers for it were fired/let go from LL [10:39]  Richardus Raymaker: i think sl8b is a bit more based on sl2 crap :( [10:39]  Richardus Raymaker: - [10:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: 5 and 6 is was like desert land with three regions across the bottom [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya 6 had like a space theme [10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: with the train [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: I might try going over to SL8B again later today [10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: yesterday i didnt get very far i kept crashing [10:42]  Richardus Raymaker: wich viewer ? [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence [10:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: Drop by SL8B Spellbound 24/151/22 if you want to see the display I'm helping with. [10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: ok cool will do [10:43]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, have a good meeting everyone. See you next week. [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: see you Andrew [10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: bye andrew [10:43] Andrew Hellershanks waves [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: looks like we still have some work to do to get the new Mesh format working [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia and I did a little testing last night [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: its still not working 100% yet [10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: she has test code? [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: well it sorta works in OpenSim [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: we can upload mesh now [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: and it creates the mesh object in your inventory [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: but you can not rez it [10:45]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: oh good, so what you're saying is when i tried it earlier today, it wasn't just me. phew. [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: I think were missing a cap and maybe something else [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: you just get some spew on the console when you try to rez it [10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: probably. I'm surprised any of that works at all [10:45] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yah, a lot [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: well there was some work done [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: but its incomplete [10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: who did that? I don't remember seeing anything much recently [10:46] BlueWall Slade: I was wondering if the bulletsim has support for it [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=387b228d68b579bf978c091d8873608e016d0c3d [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: BlueWall i think radams1 said that it probably wont work yet [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: but he didnt see any reason it wouldnt work eventually [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: Bulletsim has a lot of work needed still [10:47] Richardus Raymaker: did you read the mailing about the other psyic engine. ? [10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: ah ok, that was a really tiny tweak if I recall [10:47] BlueWall Slade: and Teravus mentioned that he was doing some work on a nativeC# implementation of it [10:48]  BlueWall Slade: I doubt he has a lot of cycles to throw at it atm though [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i did see that lkalif had posted information on IRC at one point [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: let me see if i can find it [10:50]  BlueWall Slade: the cap? [10:50] Richardus Raymaker: juicy. i would try to flush your appereance later.. still cloud :( [10:52] BlueWall Slade: wheee, seems like assets are going pretty slow [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: .. [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: here is one page he posted [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_Asset_Format [10:53]  Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: hehe got here via HG.. ok Avie] [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: and this [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=DTvidpn2 [10:53]  Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: Gawd.. what fun we have [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: that paste above Justin [10:54]  acryline erin is Online [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: llkalif said "that's what the Linden Mesh sim replies" [10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I saw that before [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: ok [10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: this all looks rather complicated [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya, well hopefully we can figure it out soon, LL is talking about having it live on their main grid by the end of the summer [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: interestsingly though the new viewer that has the new mesh format support [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: still also supports the old format [10:55] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: Blender mesh have been ok this week [10:55] Nebadon Izumi: which was quite a suprise for me [10:56]  Richardus Raymaker: that go to be some weird time then. 50% see's everything fine and 50% see incomplete workd [10:56] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: Kirsten or newest Linden [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya you can view mesh Bri [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but you can no longer upload mesh to OpenSim anymore [10:56] Richardus Raymaker: newest linden is nono. kirsten is nog really good with gui to. besides last time it did not install. [10:56] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: I did today [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: then your using the old viewer still [10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't rely on the old mesh always being visible [10:56] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: will recheck [10:57] Richardus Raymaker: but i now run opensuse [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: it seems unlikely that Kirstens is updated yet [10:57] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: I have several mesh makers working on my D2 [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and the Latest Mesh development viewer you will be unable to upload mesh into OpenSim anymore [10:58] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: they are on new Linden [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: its only a matter of time though before Kirstens stops working too [10:58] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, offcorse i still need to learn blender. the mesh is seperate plugin for bl;ender ? [10:58] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: wow.. that will suck [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: they changed the format Bri [10:58] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: when? [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: its just a matter of someone updating the opensim code [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: week or two now [10:58] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: hmm [10:59] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: has been fine on D2 [10:59]  Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: from Blender or Google [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: if you download the latest development mesh viewer you will still be able to view old mesh format [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: but anything new you upload will fail, wont be able to rez it [11:00]  Us Vemo: why i mesh that hot.? [11:00] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: oki.. ty for info [11:00] Us Vemo: i hear they will introduce lots of primrestrictions for mesh [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: more info ? [11:01] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: many content creators are wanting to use opensim to build [11:01] Us Vemo: yes [11:01] Richardus Raymaker: what primrestrictios ? [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: honestly Us Vemo, 1 mesh wont = 1 prim yes [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: but you will be able to do vastly better quality content with mesh [11:02] Us Vemo: i have read about much fewer prims with mesh [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: especially avatars [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: but there must be some but.... whats max. size ? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes 1 mesh wont = 1 prim [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: but again [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: 1 mesh can do the same as like 100 prims [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: or more [11:03] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: I have a home in work all mesh [11:03] Richardus Raymaker: means LL can put more regions on 1 server... ? :) :O [11:03] Us Vemo: if sl pute restrictions on the use... it will prohibit the development [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: no Richardus [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: it does not mean that [11:03]  Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: so far LL is very pro mesh.. helpful [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont see how Us Vemo [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: they wont put restrictions on standard prims [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: they already are super restrictive [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: it honestly wont be anymore restrictive than it already is [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: quite the oposite [11:04]  acryline erin is Offline [11:04]  Us Vemo: i have read about fewer mesh prims than normal prims [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: they are allowing up to 64m prims now [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its acutally becoming less restrictive [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Us Vemo yes [11:05]  Us Vemo: i will try to find it [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: did you read anything i said? [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: 1 mesh does not = 1 prim [11:05] Us Vemo: yes [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: 1 mesh can literally equal 100's of prims [11:05] BlueWall Slade: prim cost [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: its actually much less restrictive [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: your basically repeating FUD [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: or 1 mesh => 1 prim, right ? [11:05] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: will visit Beta Grid and play with "new" format as around [11:06] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: ask ^ [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and like i said they are now going to allow up to 64m prims [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: no more 10m limit [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: how is that more restrictive? [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: its not... for many its a big improvement. [11:06] Us Vemo: http://sorornishi.blogspot.com/2011/06/prim-mesh-equivalence-cost-of-mesh.html [11:07] Us Vemo: i dont know if that is relevant [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: SL bad framerate ? my rate in opensim is lower then in sl [11:07] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: depends where...lol [11:07] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: WP yeah [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: ok, then im in the wrong places. lol [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: honestly Prims can be very inefficient overall [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: because you waste alot of the shame [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i gaurantee you that quality of things is going to drastically improve [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: and you wont need nearly as many prims [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: most SL builders are just super wasteful [11:08] Us Vemo: that is an interesting blog post [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: ok, read that page later [11:09] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: lol thats just someone freakin out with no actual released information on how ll will handle the actual cost of said meshes [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i started to use more prims. now its possible.. and i still preffer normal prims and not sculpts [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: honestly that article is nonsense [11:09] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: it really is [11:10]  SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: even i recognize that i'm sorry, i'm prety new, but it's fearmongering [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: they are assuming a lot [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: literally every video game on earth uses mesh format [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its like saying every game you played other than SL is doing it wrong [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: honestly its the opposite [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: would be better if the load the map before the display the prim inworld [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: LL has been doing it wrong dince day 1 [11:11] Us Vemo: i agree [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: dince=since [11:11] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: ll imposed costs and limits mean nothing here... although probably good to keep in mind, since they are basing their costs on performance issues and data transfer costs [11:11] Us Vemo: but did you read theblog post [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i did [11:11] SinSeer.Discordia @www.griffonsnest.com: yes [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: and i think its nonsense [11:11] Us Vemo: i think that was fairy critical [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. See you guys around [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: see ya Justin [11:11] Bri.Hasp @metaversesailing.com: ciao JCC [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: oh justin [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: btw [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey waves [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that IAR is in your home folder [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, thanks [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: no problem, let me know when your ready for some testing [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: sure [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: see yasecondlife://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002:Vue-5000/128/128/128