Chat log from the meeting on 2011-05-03

[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: does opensim handle chat and IM different then SL ? [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: opensim handles everything differntly [11:08] BlueWall Slade: probably [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we have no idea how the SL back end runs honestly [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: thats good, just want to double check :) [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: phew [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: heh welcome back [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, the run bad [11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: justin, you have the same problem as i have with sl2. bad chat [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm gonna have to talk to the kokua boys about that :) [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of guessing and speculation as to how the SL back end runs [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hope they're not going with that chat interface [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: there are some known facts, but when it gets down to the code no one really knows [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: important thing you miss, input field in deteachhed chat window [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: the thing that bothers me most is having an individual header for every piece of chat [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: makes it hard to raed [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: I doubt very few people at LL even know [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: for a meeting like this I prefer the chat window open [11:10] BlueWall Slade: https://ascent.bluewallgroup.com:9935/lslhttps/427e533a-e6da-444a-be56-d9d2880b5950/ [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: you can detach it justincc [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: i deteach chat always justin, but then i dont have input field if i ever use sl2 [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: it just takes getting used to [11:10]  Teravus Ousley is Online [11:10] Richardus Raymaker: yes nebadon, but the forgot chat input field [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but can you git rid of the headers everytime someone different speaks? [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I had a quick poke in the preferences but couldnt' see anything [11:11] Dutchy Daredevil is Offline [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya I am not sure [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi teravus [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: whenever i use V2 its in complete isolation from others [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:11] BlueWall Slade: one thing I like - you can have it use vi as your lsl editor [11:11] Sarah Kline: hi teravus [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hello Ter [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I hadn't actualy noticed it before [11:11] BlueWall Slade: hey Teravus [11:12] Teravus Ousley: Favorite Sony Gaffe? 1. PSN/SOE data breach, 2. Removal of OtherOS, 3. War on PS3 hackers, 4. PR guy retweeting PS3 Master key, 5. Rootkit DRM, 6. Any of their Portable Consoles, 7. Sony Pictures CEO, Michael Lynton - 'I'm a guy who doesn't see anything good having come from the Internet. Period.'' [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: give him some msx computer [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: why anyone still buys sony products is so beyond me [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: same reason they buy apple stuff i guess [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its shiny [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how are the null region/oar experiments going? [11:13] Teravus Ousley: Sorry for de-railing, please continue. [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: I have not done much more Justin [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: apple is to closed for me, the decide what you can do... no... [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: there are some major deficencies that make it not really worth doing much more [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but from the testing I did the overall datstoreing performance is far beyond what mysql is providing [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: inability to make it save on exit? [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: nah [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Sculpty not meshing after OAR load [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: #1 issue [11:14] BlueWall Slade: we should look at using the null storage as a first leve, then have it trickle things into the normal database [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:15]  Dutchy Daredevil is Online [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: that would be good [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: still have it load from MySQL [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: you use mysql or mariadb nebadon ? [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: when you say not meshing, do you mean collision detection? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: but have subsequent writes be held in memory until good time [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: right Justin [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: when you load an OAR Sculpty seem to mesh as an oversized cube [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: do you get a lot of exception spew? [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: so a region like this you get tons of invisible walls [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: generally the only way to fix that is restart the region after sim is done storing the oar load [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: and that fixes it? [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but if your always loading from oar you cant do that [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: and sometimes yes i do see errors [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: not always though [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, in principle that should be fixable then, it's just some kind of bug [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i would think so justin [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I know I see consistent proiblems when trying to generate physical meshes on 64 bit [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: hmm thats odd [11:17] Nebadon Izumi: all my servers are x64 [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: it only happens for some meshes [11:17] Teravus Ousley: FYI, there's supposed to be an event that fires in SOP that sets the primitivebaseshape to a new reference to trigger a remesh. [11:17] Teravus Ousley: the event is contingent upon receiving the asset. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: don't see the same failure on 32 bit. dahlia says it is in the jpeg decoding library [11:17] Teravus Ousley: So the issue is there. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: ok, thanks [11:18] Teravus Ousley: It's one of those places where it looks like it's redundant code [11:18] Teravus Ousley: .. so it's likely to get optimized out. [11:18] Teravus Ousley: Remember, the important thing is the PBS(Primitive Base Shape) Reference changes. [11:19] Teravus Ousley: how the data is copied from one to another is irrelevant. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but ya maybe we can come up with some kind of middle ground like Bluewall said [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: a mix of Mysql storage and null storage like middle ground [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so data isnt being instantly written [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno though [11:20] BlueWall Slade: that would still use huge memory [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: probably isnt as simple as it sounds [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: sounds good, first collect all then write at once to db [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: our current system is kind of a middle ground already, the delink issue is just unfortunate [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not just linking [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm sure there's room for massive improvement [11:20] Teravus Ousley: The reason that I say that it's one of those things that's easy to optimize out is it looks like.. [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: making multiple copies of large amounts of prims is equally as bad [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: sounds like poor readability to me ;) [11:21]  Teravus Ousley: PrimitiveBaseShape copy = origpbs.MemberWiseClone ; [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: anything that entails large # of prims is bad [11:21]  Teravus Ousley: origpbs = copy; [11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: especially when multiple avatars are building [11:21]  Teravus Ousley: Hey, I'm 'just saying' :) [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:22] Cai Laval: goodevening:)) all [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: hello Cai [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that's always the difficult case to get good data from [11:22] BlueWall Slade: Hi Cai [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hello cai [11:22] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dutchy [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not been easy to relay what I am seeing for sure [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: what i can say though is people fresh from SL [11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: who are expereinced builders tend to blow sims up fast [11:22] Dutchy Daredevil: hi folkd the blue team is complete again [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and get frustrated and leave [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, does sound like a pain point [11:23] Dutchy Daredevil: i wont leave my partner alone [11:23] Cai Laval: sst dutch [11:23] Dutchy Daredevil: i am stuborn [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: things have been getting better [11:23] Cai Laval: shutup [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: but there is still alot to do [11:24]  Dutchy Daredevil: your balk me dear [11:24] Dutchy Daredevil: bald [11:24] Dutchy Daredevil: dannnn keyboard [11:24] Cai Laval: your invisible.. [11:24] Dutchy Daredevil: i am here [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how much have you been running current master? [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: thats a bug i heared someone else about to, invisible [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if I am 100% fully updated [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: i have been testing the caps branch since yesterday at my sandbox [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: works, ok, no real improvements though [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: the nature of avatar flying has changed since dahlia's patch [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya thats in here [11:25] Nebadon Izumi: this region has that [11:25] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.2 Dev          d4323dd: 2011-04-30 18:08:48 -0700 (Unix/Mono) [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: instead of constant small jitters, I see one big pause after a short distance of flying [11:25] Richardus Raymaker: hmm then i need to fly tonight here [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: it's very noticeable if you just fly in a straight line over a sim [11:25] BlueWall Slade: that is proabbly the "fatpacks"? [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: it takes a little bit of distance though [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: no, this isn't border corssing [11:26] BlueWall Slade: ohhh, ok [11:26]  Teravus Ousley: looks like the velocity is too migh. [11:26] Teravus Ousley: .. high [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: we loose justin? [11:26] Teravus Ousley: .. move forward.. and then bounce back about a meter. [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: nah, I was just trying it out :) [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: oh there he is [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: so far I had only tried on a standalone, but I see the same effect here too [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: it seemed smooth to me [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: fly in a straight line and you slow down before leaping forward again [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm i dotn see much bad. the move hick move hiock is in opensim for long time. but dont see it here to [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: that sounds pretty normal to me [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: seems quite noticeable to me, and it goes away if the patch is reverted [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: I keep meaning to ask her about it but haven't had a chance [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: could be latency i suppose [11:27]  BlueWall Slade: I see [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: what is your ping time? [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I see if on local standalone [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: 148ms [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a consistent effect [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: i try it later again [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: wonder why i dont notice it [11:28]  BlueWall Slade: it's not like rubberbanding [11:28] BlueWall Slade: it's more subtle [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: !i dont see it here rigth now to. [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: what viewer are you using? [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence Experimental 10/23/2010 [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe there's a difference there, I'm on a vanilla viewer [11:28] Teravus Ousley: In my personal experience, I'm seeing incremental bounce forward. Like velocity is too low [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: but I suspec tthe effect will be consistent across viewers [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: incremental bounce forward - a bit like a car juddering forward? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: I dunno if this matters at all [11:29] BlueWall Slade: watching others seems pretty smooth though [11:29] Teravus Ousley: .. And, while nebadon was moving around, I saw the opposite.. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but after some experimenting with making a flying helicopter vehicle [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: only seem some hick if you fly straigh turn and fly straight [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: straight is smooth [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: commit 16f6f55 [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i have noticed that avatars in OpenSIm's mass is consideribly higher than SL [11:29]  Teravus Ousley: Flying forward smoothly, and every 2 or 3 seconds, a small jut forward. [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: exactly [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: Teravus, thats a very old problem in opensim. i see that from begin 0.7 [11:30] BlueWall Slade: yes [11:30] Teravus Ousley: velocity is too low in physics [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i modified my sandbox to match the SL numbers [11:30] Teravus Ousley: Specifically... linear velocity [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: hmm wait for mit jut forward for you [11:30] mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: for me its in old version a second slow. maby its a bit the same [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: in that commit, dahlia did remove a magic constant which changed velocity [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: haven't had a chance to experiment yet [11:31] mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: right at the bottom of the diff [11:31] Teravus Ousley: There are a few Magic constants in physics :) [11:31]  Primitive: Nebadon Izumi your mass is 54.178131 lindogram. [11:31]  Teravus Ousley: PID_P, PID_D [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I thought I would mention it in an effort to make sure it doesn't get lost [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: see that 54 lindograms [11:31]  mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL an avatar is like 2-3 Lindogams [11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I wish I had the time to look into physics more closely [11:31]  Teravus Ousley: :) all affect the force that's applied to move the avatar capsule. [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: you probably need to be standing [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: to be wieghed [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: that error i see sometimes to "Primitive: Runtime error: (0): Object reference not set to an instance of an object" [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: stand up [11:32]  BlueWall Slade: it's like you get a little turbo-boost every 3-4 seconds [11:32] Primitive: Nebadon Izumi your mass is 54.178131 lindogram. [11:32] Primitive: Richardus Raymaker your mass is 33.024826 lindogram. [11:32] mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:33] mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:33] Teravus Ousley: the 3 to 4 seconds is the viewer getting an update that puts you further then interpolation would [11:33] mass checker: 1.250001 mass [11:33] Primitive: BlueWall Slade your mass is 53.246262 lindogram. [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: prother one [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel it's like you gradually get slower over 3 seconds until suddently normal velocity is restored and you leap forward [11:33] Primitive: OtakuMegane Desu your mass is 59.588428 lindogram. [11:33] Cai Laval: iam not going to stand afther all tha easter choclate....no way [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:33] Teravus Ousley: for it to appear smooth, interpolation and position over time need to match. [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: like you tell it justin, i dont see it [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, could be subtle - I suspect the previous situation sent lots of constant adjustements, so everything juddered a bit but no bit leap [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: but really that's a subjective description - the underlying system could be completely different [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: as Teravus says. I really don't know enough about this area, but this is deinitely an effect that I'm seeing [11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: Hi [11:34]  Cai Laval: hello [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: hi cai, dutchy [11:35] Cai Laval: hi rira [11:35] Teravus Ousley: :) It's simple. The viewer uses prediction to make things appear smooth [11:35]  Teravus Ousley: When the prediction doesn't match reality.. [11:35]  Teravus Ousley: you get bounce [11:35]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi RIRA [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: if anyone wants the avatar mass script its in this red box [11:35]  Teravus Ousley: So, to make it smooth, match the prediction. [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: you can copy the box [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: could different viewers possibly be making different predictions? [11:35]  BlueWall Slade: I think she is sending less frequent updates when the avatar is moving constantly in one direction and speed [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: It's highly doubtful. [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: They all use the same base code from my understanding. [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it would seem likely all the main stream viewers are the same [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: .. Except 3rd party viewers :) [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's what I would have thought, otherwise they wouldn't work very well with sl [11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: could be a rogue viewer or 2 that have made changes [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, sounds like the predictions are no longer matching the viewre expectations [11:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: I kinda doubt anyone has really delved into the physics side of the viewers yet. [11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi andrew [11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: have the idea i still get double invenmtory items with gifts [11:36]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Andrew [11:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: Probably buried deep in the scary areas [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: There really isn't any physics with the viewers [11:36]  Teravus Ousley: .. there's just interpolation [11:37]  Andrew Hellershanks: Was reading some stuff on the net and forgot my PDA had beeped to remind me of meeting. [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Not physics itself, but communications of movement, etc [11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Dunno what else you'd call it [11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: hia ndrew [11:37] Teravus Ousley: .. For example.. if you're at 1,1,1 and you're traveling east at 4 meters per second.. every second that the viewer doesn't get an update it adds one meter to your position on X [11:38] Teravus Ousley: second 1, 2,1,1 [11:38] Teravus Ousley: second 2, 3, 1, 1 [11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. and so on.. . until the viewer gets an update.. then it resets [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: so by cutting down the number of updates, the eventual correction could be bigger? [11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Which works fine for very small latency spikes or if you really are traveling indefinitely in one direction [11:38] Teravus Ousley: yes [11:38] BlueWall Slade: the viewer should auto-adapt [11:38] Teravus Ousley: That's really a symtom of the issue though [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: are you doing fast fly? [11:39] Teravus Ousley: the issue is that the prediction isn't matching reality. [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: double tapping arrow key? [11:39] BlueWall Slade: just regular [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: like "Run" fly [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ahha [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i was not doing that [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: let me try again [11:39] Richardus Raymaker: ahh [11:39] BlueWall Slade: does it on that too though [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what, there's a run fly? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: still seems fine [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you have to be going a bit longer than that [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya its 2x as fast [11:40] Teravus Ousley: There is a run fly :) [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ok let me fly the entire ism border [11:40]  BlueWall Slade: you can see it over a longer streatch [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: one thing i have noticed justin [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: when you get close to border [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: things lag [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: has nothing to do with flying [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: its border comms [11:40]  Andrew Hellershanks: Seems I missed some interesting and lively discussions today [11:40]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i noticed a bit of lag when i fly right next to border [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i have also noticed incrase console info as you get near a border [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: flying next to the border may be confusing the issue [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: which tends to cause lag [11:41]  BlueWall Slade: try it diagonal from the corner [11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: hard to say. it moved not always smooth. but rezzing objects give hicks to [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I can get this to occur on a single island standalone [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway [11:41] Ruben Haan: hi [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: flying to me though seems pretty good [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi ruben [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: hi ruben [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: fly feels pretty smooth [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya fly felt pretty smooth for me as well [11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: There a way to disable the prediction, so we can see exactly what's happening? [11:42] BlueWall Slade: it is, but the issue is pretty subtle [11:42] Teravus Ousley: The other thing that might affect lag flying next to a region is your viewer all of the sudden starting to download higher detail textures in the border sim because they're taking up more screen real-estate [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya but justin is saying it occurss for him in standalone [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: with no nieghbors [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i mean teravus. so its hard to test here [11:42] Teravus Ousley: Otaku, actually there is.. in the debug tools somewhere [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: this is a more confusing scenario, but it occurs here too [11:43] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: oh hello, [11:43] Helicopter v5.9: Vehicle Mass : 2.019462 [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: does it work neb ? [11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: I have seen the jitter on my own regions which are pretty much empty, ever since about 0.7 [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: wtf [11:43] Ruben Haan: hehe [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: 1 engine fails nebadon [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins [11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: I can't really get meaningful testing here, too much graphics lag lol [11:44] Sarah Kline: lol neb [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: should have guess it was nebadon with the helicopter [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: its the first official UFO nebadon ? [11:44] Teravus Ousley: In Advanced.. in 1X viewers [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I thought we had some kind of issue with sound effects? [11:44] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: but it appears not [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:44] Teravus Ousley: .. in Network.. disable Interplolation [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya sometimes we do [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we dont [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia: commit 16f6f55 [11:44] Cai Laval: hi dahlia [11:45] Teravus Ousley: I think it's 'Velocity Interpolate Objects' [11:45] Dahlia Trimble: commit what? [11:45] Teravus Ousley: .. uncheck it and you'll get raw updates [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh god, yeah, that's the setting [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: "network traffic reduction - decrease update frequency for moving avatars when velocity is unchanged" [11:45] Teravus Ousley: no prediction. [11:45] Dahlia Trimble: ya? [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: where is that hidden teravus ? [11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Velocity Interpolate Ojects [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I've noticed avatar velocity characteristics changes since this patch [11:45] Teravus Ousley: Advanced --- > Network [11:46] Teravus Ousley: in 1.x viewers [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: should [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: if I fly over a sim, every 2-3 seconds the avatar appears to lurch forwards [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but the flight itself is smoother, unlike the previous constant small juddering [11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: About once per second so far I get stuck walking in place, then it starts again [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: 1.5 seconds it makes a correction [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounds like the opensim velocity predictions aren't matching what the client interpolates [11:46] Teravus Ousley: That's your real position update [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: probably [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: i freeze every x seconds [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: +/- [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: so if you're flying in a straight line, do you notice it? [11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Same with flying [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: sometimes [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: it's consistenly noticeable to me [11:47]  Richardus Raymaker: i have already freezes with walking [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: I dont really notice it if network traffic is low [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: but I dont think avatar velocity is correct in opensim [11:48] Ruben Haan: lets put on the heater. its freezing [11:48] Dahlia Trimble: SL doesnt send any updates when flying in a straight line [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: probably not. One hypothesis I have is that with the previous continuous correction, we were getting lots of small judders. But now with the less continuous correction we get one bigger judder [11:48] Teravus Ousley agrees with dahlia. Viewer interpolation and OpenSimulator's avatar velocity do not agree. That's the real problem. [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [11:49] Juicy Babii: time for another magic fudge factor constant [11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm. Maybe it's just the speed, but when physics is taking over (falling) it's pretty smooth [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: previously I had a lot of jecking back and forth [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: especially when downloading content [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I notice you eliminated the *.95 velocity fudge factor? [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: Juicy. your cloud for me [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: yes [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: I thought it was dependant on a specific developer's installation and didnt match my installations at all [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: 1.05 would probably be better for mine [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: why would this vary from installation to installation? [11:51] Juicy Babii presses the uncloudify button [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: anyway velocity in the sim is not correct [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: is the avatar mass factored in at all? [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: dunnno [11:51] Get your Avatars Mass! (CLICK ME): OtakuMegane Desu your mass is 59.588428 lindogram. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: only reason i mention it is because OS avatar mass is like 20-30 times higher than SL [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: do you know why opensim's interpolation isn't correct? [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: no [11:52]  Teravus Ousley thinks that he remembers adding that constant way back to account for the avatar's extra velocity in ODE. But so much has changed.... that it's hard to say now. [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: that script works in sl to nebadon. to compare it [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i know [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i got it from SL [11:52]  BlueWall Slade: too much cookies and milk? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: I thought Diva added it, at least the comment suggested she did [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i used this script to compare [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: never seen it in sl.. [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: my avatar in SL weighs about 2.8 lindo grams [11:53] Get your Avatars Mass! (CLICK ME): Nebadon Izumi your mass is 54.178131 lindogram. [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: and 54 here [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: anyway seems a bad assumption [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I might end up doing some fiddling. I find the avatar pausing extremely noticeable when flying over terrain [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, lurching [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: fiddle away :) [11:53]  Teravus Ousley isn't stuck on having a constant or not.... [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya actually for me before Dahlias change flying was much worse [11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: but I would suggest trying to correct velocity, not adding more updates [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: but i always associated it to border comms [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: so do different physics engine change opensim's avatar position calucations? [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: that would be ideal [11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: because whenever i got near the border the console would start spewing [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: Justin, Yes [11:54]  Teravus Ousley: lots of things come to play with regards to that. [11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: ideally it would only need one update [11:55]  Teravus Ousley: ... mass, number of updates since your last physics movement. [11:55]  Teravus Ousley: ... if something is blocking you. [11:55] Teravus Ousley: ... remember there's a PID controller in there that will add force to get you to a desired point determined by code in ScenePresence [11:55] Teravus Ousley: It uses a feedback loop [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ah yes, I vaguely remember this now [11:56] Teravus Ousley: so the longer it takes to get you there.. the more force it will add to get you there :) [11:56] Teravus Ousley: This is how the avatar is able to travel up hills on terrain and not be 'just stopped' [11:56]  OtakuMegane Desu: Sounds like avatar mass could have a considerable effect [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: from what I could tell, OS avatar mass more resembled real live human body mass [11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: do you know of any good books for simple game physics? I had a look once but couldnt' find anything [11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: the velocity is an output of the process [11:57]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. It seems to match rellatively close to kg [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: apparently in SL they intiially calculated avatar mass wrong [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and then too much time had passed to fix it [11:57]  OtakuMegane Desu: Which makes sense [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: it would have broken 1000's of scripts [11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: all the commit does is skip updates if velocity is unchanged [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: http://lslwiki.net/lslwiki/wakka.php?wakka=lindogram [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: this explains what LL did wrong [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: justin: http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596000066 [11:58] Teravus Ousley: well.. you might have better luck with looking at code examples and wikipedia then with books on PID controllers used as character movement controllers [11:58] Teravus Ousley: PID Controllers are used, generally for precise mechanical processes [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks andrew [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: ok [11:58]  OtakuMegane Desu: So would the mass difference, and how physics handles it differently, confuse the viewer, then? [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: tIf it's expecting values 20x different... [11:59] Juicy Babii: a light breeze would confuse the viewer [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: lol [11:59] Teravus Ousley: It's possible... but it wouldn't have anything to do with the viewer.. more with the way that Linden Lab predicted the movement based on Havok's physics [11:59] Dahlia Trimble: I doubt the mass was ever intended to be measured in grams, they are probably just units, kinda like we assume meters as the distance unit [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you though, I have tested changing the avatar mass from a setting of 80 (default) to setting of 3 to match SL settings [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and have seen no ill effects in doing so [12:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: There is also that. Viewer was deisgned to interface with a Havok environment. [12:00] Teravus Ousley: Physics engines, even though they do the 'same thing', are not interchangable with the same results. [12:00] Teravus Ousley: .. even version differences have 'different results' in physics [12:01] Teravus Ousley: Havok 1, has very different results then havok 5 :) [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: velocity should just be a direction vector in units/second [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE 10.1 and 11.1 were not much different [12:01]  OtakuMegane Desu: Does it seem like the pause doesn't happen when moving in circles? [12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE 11.1 perforamnce seems much better to me [12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: if you've moving in circles then you are constantly changing velocity [12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: if its not moving that many units/second, something is wrong [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, sorry, I mean direction vector [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: or something [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey sighs [12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [12:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm. Explains why faLLING IS SMOOTH TOO [12:02]  OtakuMegane Desu: derp [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: however, I suspect that I wouldn't see the lurch if I was moving around in a circle [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, should test that [12:02] Dahlia Trimble: hmm falling should accelerate for a while [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: does wind affect falling? [12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: When I tried flying up then falling it was pretty smooth. Going in circles relatively so as well. Walking straight though... [12:03] Teravus Ousley: wind only affects falling if it's simulated server side.. [12:03] Teravus Ousley: .. which it's not. [12:03] BlueWall Slade: why do we always land on our feet in OS? [12:03] Teravus Ousley: .. in physics anyway. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: there is no fall animation at all in OS [12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL you can trip over prims [12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Actualllly if you fall from a distance you land like a crab lol [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: cant do that here [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: no fall animation [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey goes to test out changing heading while flying [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: or crash animation ;) [12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey realises that's almost impossible to test with the current ui [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: what viewer are you currently on Justin? [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: what version? [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm using SL 1.23.5 [12:06]  BlueWall Slade: I have to run - I'll stay parked here. [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye bluewall [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ll see ya BlueWall [12:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe [12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, i can see it in other people flying too [12:06]  Richardus Raymaker: bye blue [12:06]  BlueWall Slade: you you guys get a chance, look at the ssl-dev branch and see what you think [12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: will do, though I might not get a chance until friday [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: k you'll have to explain to me what its about later BlueWall [12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: i am not even sure what it does [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:07] Dahlia Trimble: whats it do? [12:07] BlueWall Slade: can use https with remote-admin, llRequestSecureURL... [12:07] BlueWall Slade: that is in the region [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah [12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: cool [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: nice [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: nice [12:08] BlueWall Slade: then, in Robust you can run a main server in https for apps [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: is there a web ui for remote admin? [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: thats cool. need to get that http stuff first configured at all [12:08] BlueWall Slade: or add an aux port [12:08] BlueWall Slade: I guess someone has one [12:08] Dahlia Trimble: I never use remote admin, no clue what it does [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I see the same effect with walking. I guess that makes sense [12:08] BlueWall Slade: me either - it was all in clear text [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get going soon. I have one question to ask about an issue I'm seeing in 0.7.0.2 [12:09] Dahlia Trimble: walk on a flat surface [12:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye andrew [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey is not totally sure what sarah is doing [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Home and Last location info seems to be getting lost for users (ie. zero'd) which causes problems when avatar tries to log in to Home or Last location next time. Its ok if they specify a region to land in after logging in. Any idea of a bug fix for that or how to work around the problem (until 0.7.1 is release)? [12:11] Sarah Kline: very weird [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:11] Sarah Kline: oops [12:11] Sarah Kline: looked rude [12:11] Sarah Kline: but you fall if you have in your ao it seems [12:11] Sarah Kline: splat [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:11]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I don't know, but 0.7.1 should be released very shortly, so if you're upgrading it would make more sense to wait, I think [12:12] Warin Cascabel: Aha, is that what's doing it? I thought for some reason my regions were misconfigured or something. [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm reasonably sure we don't see the issues on that [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I already moved to 0.7.0.2 [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I could update to 0.7.1rc2 if there are no major issues with it. [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: there don't appear to be any major issues [12:12] Dahlia Trimble: gotta run, bye all :) [12:13]  Sarah Kline: bye dahlia [12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: 0.7.0.2 was released in sept, so it's not about 9 months old [12:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Cause I can't have the grid running on 0.7.0.2 with this bug that affects users logging in. [12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, 8 [12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: Explains the long list of changes in the release notes for 0.7.1 [12:13]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:13]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [12:14]  Warin Cascabel: Hm. I'm running 0.7.1-Dev, and I see that. First time I log into my region, it's fine; subsequent logins, I end up at <10,10,10> if I remember correctly. Restart the region, and I login in correctly once. [12:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: warin: locale of os? [12:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I could apply any updates since the release of 0.7.0.2 but I don't see a post release for it. [12:14] Warin Cascabel: Justin: en-us [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: that's odd [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Warin, 10/10/10 would be ok. I see 0/0/0 for coordinate and region ID also has gone to zeros [12:15] Warin Cascabel: More specifically, en_US.UTF-8, if that matters. [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: it's turned into the ministry of silly walks now :) [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:15]  Warin Cascabel: Okay, Andrew, so I'm seeing a different problem then. [12:15]  Andrew Hellershanks: I wondered if it would make a difference if I created an entry in GridUser table for each user before their first log in. [12:16]  Richardus Raymaker: i end sometimes after login in black field going hard below zero. happens very rare [12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats strange your seeing that on OSgrid Warin [12:16]  acryline erin is Online [12:17]  Richardus Raymaker: mos it helps to just click on minimap and teleport to other coordinate [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. Thanks for the chat, folks [12:17]  Warin Cascabel: Happens with all regions that I had running on 0.6.9, but not ones that I started fresh after the migration to 0.7. So it probably is a misconfiguration somewhere that I've missed. [12:17] Sarah Kline: bye justin [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey waves [12:17] Teravus Ousley: OK, I suppose that concludes the meeting