Chat log from the meeting on 2018-05-22

Summary Effect of the GDPR (european law for the protection of data) flaw in llMoveToTarget maptiles mono will be able to do coop mode soon [10:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: just chasing my tail on this GDPR stuff [10:53] Sheera Khan: awwww, you've got a fluffy tail? [10:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Had one, the GDPR chewed it off [10:54] Sheera Khan: GDPR - is that the european data protection law? [10:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It is overly draconian, but it is what it is, I'd rather do my best to be compliant than take chances .. [10:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Better chance of surviving it if I try to be compliant than if I thumb my nose at it .. [10:55] Sheera Khan: would be so easy if the viewer devs could enter a disclaimer page each time you change the grid you're on [10:55] Sheera Khan: I think the viewers should know when you're switching between two grids [10:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: when you try to HG to my grid you will get a popup that you have to authorize your avatar and accept the privacy terms [10:56] Sheera Khan: they just would have to pull up some page from the server where the grid owner could write something upon [10:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and if I change that all I have to do is clear the auth table and you will get it again [10:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is exactly what mine does [10:57] Kayaker Magic: Where is that code Bill, in Robust? [10:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well, it is part of the external system I use, jopensim, I modified it and use it as external auth, required no changes to OS code other than a couple of INI changes. [10:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @ Bill [10:59] Sheera Khan: most viewer devs won't bother with that as they concentrate on SL where there's no need for that [10:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: does not require any viewer changes as is [10:59] Kayaker Magic: Where can I learn more about jopensim? [10:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: jopensim.com [10:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: the best web front for OpenSim [11:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use a modified version of it that I mess with, I kind of have a good relationship with the developer [11:01] Sheera Khan: so your solution basically needs an externel module to opensim? [11:01] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: a nice set of components that hook into joomla seamlessly (ok I am a fanboy I admit) [11:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: just external php [11:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the remote auth is part of opensim [11:02] Kayaker Magic: Where can I learn about the remote auth part of opensim? [11:02] Kayaker Magic: (do I sound like an AI? Converting every statement into a question?) [11:03] Sheera Khan: Maybe you're a NI... 11:03] Kayaker Magic: Non Intelligence? [11:03] Sheera Khan: (natural intelligence) [11:03] Sheera Khan: *giggles* [11:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: You are showing self awareness, so if you are an AI the Turing test should be easy. [11:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'd say dig into the code that is how I discovered it .. LOL [11:04] Kayaker Magic: Give me a hint, where should I look for that in the code.... [11:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It is a region module, if you want to just auth when people land on the regions [11:06] Sheera Khan: might there be some hook in the core code authentification? [11:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: \OpenSim\Region\CoreModules\ServiceConnectorsOut\Authorization [11:06] Sheera Khan: where one could hook calling a disclaimer page onto? [11:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well mine does just that, calls a link to the privacy policy/HG auth page [11:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: presents it in a viewer popup [11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: OpenSim/ApplicationPlugins/RemoteController/RemoteAdminPlugin.cs [11:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: we are not talking about remote admin [11:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: remote auth [11:08] Sheera Khan: due to the new european data protection law... [11:08] Kayaker Magic: I was thinking of finding a way to poke people about the TOS when they arrive, to comply with ... yes Sheera has it. [11:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hg to grid.opensim.life:8002:Desert Oasis, you will see mine in action, only gotcha is FS will not let you click the link you have to right click and open in web browser [11:10] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: what happens if someone doesn't agree to the policy? [11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they can't HG to the grid [11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it blocks them [11:10] Kayaker Magic: Thanks Bill! This sounds great! [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I find it interesting that Europe changed their privacy laws and so many things are affected that are not in Europe. [11:10] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ok, that should do the trick [11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they will then continue to get the popup each time [11:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so they can decide later to autorize [11:11] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, the US does so too^^ [11:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: it only effects non Europeans if you have customers there [11:11] Kayaker Magic: Europe learned this trick from the Evil USA Government passing laws that require banks all over the world to track USA citizens for them. [11:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but I'm playing it safe and doing it for all HG visitors [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, :) [11:11] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: part of being a global village [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: because of the pesky use of VPN's you never know where the person actually is .. [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I've already been notified by a half-dozen sites where I have accounts that their privacy policies have been updated because of the change in Europe. [11:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ikr Andrew I didnt know I had so many accounts ... [11:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'll say it again, I think the GDPR is overly draconian, but I'd rather put on my life preserver than drown in their pool .. [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't be bothered to read the updated (and usually long) privacy policies of all the sites I use that have been updated. [11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: a website is fairly simple to bring up to regulation, opensim makes things a little bit more complicated. [11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: little [11:14] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Our website is now GDPR compliant, and the grid is, as much as it can be [11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well , I have to finish rolling out the auth changes but yeah .. [11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: better to be almost there than no where near [11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yeah improving your chances of not getting hit by a bus just involves not jumping out in front of them .. [11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: What is going to happen (or could happen) to all the grids that don't update to comply with the new European policy? [11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Well at worst, a 20 million euro fine [11:16] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: all depends if they catch the eye of a supervisory agency [11:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: at best they get banned from doing business in the EU, and ISPs are required to start blocking them .. [11:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the chances are slim, but they grow exponentially the more you thumb your nose at them .. [11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the other downside, is when eu customers start shunning you for not protecting their privacy like others .. [11:18] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: most regulators dont enough people or resources to target everyone, the noisiest or the worst most vocal offenders are selected first. [11:19] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: then use a representative sampling strategy each year. [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think the worst thing that may affect grids, will come from the customers themselves .. [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: "What do you mean you don't care about protecting my privacy, I'm just not going to use you!!" [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I see that coming [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Look at the response to people dropping FB like it was HOT [11:20] George Equus: Only, as it turned out it seem, not that many actually did [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: people are more conscious of people intentionally NOT protecting their information than they used to be .. [11:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: actually they lost about a million [11:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: which is a drop in the bucket [11:21] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: stock is sliding, still significantly high but they did feel it. [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but in a community like the grids, where a bad word goes way farther, this could be a significant hit [11:22] George Equus: and probably will be covered in a short time.. but it did give them a jolt I suppose [11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: when the usefulness of FB slides lower than the moral outrage, FB will be done for. [11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: it still has a powerful network effect [11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm not telling anybody what they need to do, just saying what we are doing, and we are not willing to take a hit, for something that we can technically achieve in a short time .. [11:23] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: like web 2.0 maybe this will be the dawn of the web-user 2.0 [11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @ bill [11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: IMHO, most of the people who are fighting against it are either actually using peoples data for nefarious purposes, or they are just not technically capable. Or it could be they are making a stance on some "Moral" high ground that in turn does not benefit their customers. [11:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 puts soapbox away [11:27] George Equus: Money always supersede morality.... [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep [11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: sadly nods @ George [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: What other OS topics do you want to talk about today? [11:28] George Equus: except on osgrid :))) [11:28] George Equus: .... I hope... [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It took me about 3 days to read the GDPR, another 2 to find the clauses in it that I could "exploit" to apply to a grid ... and another week to find a solution ..  which we are rolling out now. .. [11:29] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: regulations are hard going I have read 100's over the years. This was one of the better written ones for sure. [11:29] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: as a remark regarding compiling the new httptests branch: I tried compiling that using mono 5.x and got only three warnings, mono 4.x delivered awhopping 182 ^^ [11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well yeah [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: httptests does not support mono below 5.x [11:30] George Equus: Legalese can be daunting [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: because mono below 5.x does not support .NET 4.6 [11:32] unregi Resident: i am currently making a Kiss and Hug Hud, like the one that is popular in SL.... and a simple follower script, to get started [11:33] unregi Resident: but OpenSim has the strange feature that llMoveToTarget makes the avatar appear to fly [11:33] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: right now we're dealing with the legalese fallout of some european legislation ;-) [11:33] unregi Resident: so it looks like a baloon [11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: fixed in .9x httptests I believe unregi [11:34] unregi Resident: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8250 [11:35] unregi Resident: hmm, doesnt look like it.... but i already found some weird workaround [11:35] unregi Resident: or some other guy did, in the bugtracker, and i am using it [11:37] unregi Resident: now everyone is silent [11:37] unregi Resident: i didnt want that ^^^ [11:38] Kayaker Magic: you missed the lively chat about the GDPR [11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: waiting for new topic [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: unregi, it happens. I was looking at that bug report you mentioned. [11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: comment on that mantis again unregi, with your issues, maybe someone will pick it back up [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the noisy wheel gets the grease [11:39] unregi Resident: i am not done yet with my follower and hug scripts... i am probably able to make it work nicely... and if not, i can provide a nice example on how it doesnt work [11:39] George Equus: Seem db have been purged on osgrid, map look cleaner now :) [11:39] unregi Resident: i will probably comment on the bug when i am done with my simple scripts :) [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: maptiles are not stored in the DB, but you are right George [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they have to be cleared in the filesystem [11:40] Kayaker Magic: Adding scripts that demonstrate the problem is a very good thing to do in a bug report. [11:40] George Equus: dead region map tiles gone on the Web page m world map but not in-world map [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep, hard for a dev or anybody to replicate what you see if they do not have what you are using to test with ... [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Oh George you meant the web map ... [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yeah in world map is pulled from the filesystem of maptiles, so cleaning the DB does nothing to help that [11:42] George Equus: so need to be done by hand, tile by tile? [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or blast them all, and let every sim re-register [11:42] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I hope you've got some interns ^^ [11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or a really savy bash shell or php scripter [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: There is also the generate map command. [11:43] George Equus: should this not be fixed so that it can be automated, not practical to do it by hand is it... [11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is what I meant by re-register andrew, should have been more clear [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, ok. I thought you meant something else by that. [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Practical no, but when you have people that crash their regions left and right, it would keep the server pretty busy cleaning that [11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if you do a safe shutdown it should be removed, but just crashing out leaves them .. Unless you have something wrong in your filesystem permissions that is not allowing them to be removed [11:46] George Equus: hmm.. must test that. Never thought as far... [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: when you have windows users just clicking the X rather than typing shutdown, it causes that issue, or just crashed sims .. [11:46] George Equus: yep [11:46] George Equus: I stopped doing that, no always quit properly. [11:47] George Equus: supposedly protect you from someone grabbing your spot, just killing console prevent that :) [11:57] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Bit of mono news, runtime cooperative suspend (coop) will be available in the next release. The runtime needs to be able to suspend threads to perform all sorts of tasks, the main one being garbage collection. historically Mono used signals The problem of using signals is that threads are suspended at arbitrary points in time, which requires the suspender thread to run in the equivalent of signal context - a very  restrictive setup. Not only that, but the fact that threads could be suspended while holding runtime and libc locks meant that not even basic things like printf were available. [12:00] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: And  ...from Microsoft, the next update (presume win10) Notepad will use Linux line endings. :) [12:00] Ubit Umarov: you mean will understand them [12:00] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: For those who have taken scripts from students, quite a big thing :) [12:00] Ubit Umarov: like other ms things already do [12:01] George Equus: Just found another telemetry function on my win8 box to kill [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: TG.Lucan, yes I read that one a while ago about the line endings support change. [12:01] Ubit Umarov: use notepad ++ [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I installed a copy of gvim for Windows. [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I used notepad++ and have replaced windows notepad with it, so yeah [12:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: notepad++ has an LSL plugin