Chat log from the meeting on 2008-09-16



[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: say list [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Visitor List: [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Nebadon Izumi [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Audoa Giha [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Charles Krinkeb [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Teravus Ousley [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: BlueWall Slade [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: danx1 danx0r [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Dahlia Trimble [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Justin Clark-Casey [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Melanie Milland [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Homer Horwitz [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Richardus Raymaker [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Chris D [12:15]  Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Whump Linden [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: danx2 danx0r [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: eaglefx Binder [12:15] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Total = 14

[10:42] Charles Krinkeb is Online [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Visitor List Maker started... [10:42]  Visitor List Recorder v1.1: The owner can say 'help' for instructions. [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: say list [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Visitor List: [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Audoa Giha [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Charles Krinkeb [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Teravus Ousley [10:42] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Total = 3 [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:43] Charles Krinkeb: And away we go. [10:43] Teravus Ousley: attachments are epic failing for me [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: i think i got all my attachments [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: i do see your missing some [10:43] Teravus Ousley: I'm a uni-wing [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: Draguno? [10:44] Charles Krinkeb: I figured out how to make two prims talk to each other where one moves the other using xengine on this region last weekend. [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: i see an attachment failure on console [10:44] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:44] Teravus Ousley: well, that'll work for now.. a ghost wing.. or something [10:44] Charles Krinkeb: I put up a little sign for my experiments in the far corner of the sandbox. [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: nice [10:45] Nebadon Izumi: i see it [10:46]  Teravus Ousley: oh noes, the spinning nebadon sign of death [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:46] Nebadon Izumi: i have a new alien [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: the 1700 prim version [10:47] BlueWall Slade is Online [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: she gave me last night [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have to bring it over and rebuild it [10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: should be fun [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: its about 20 peices [10:47] Nebadon Izumi: the detail is nuts though [10:48] Nebadon Izumi: she is making a Predator Alien now [10:49] Charles Krinkeb: My personal thrust right now is validating LSL functions. I think if we can get folks to concentrate on functions instead of complete scripts we might make more progress. [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: she made Torley a watermelon alien [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea im concentrating on some of that myself [10:49] Teravus Ousley: The ever patient ckrinke [10:49] Nebadon Izumi: trying to find the common falure points in a bunch of scripts i have [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: its just so time consuming [10:50] Charles Krinkeb: It really means getting into the functions a bit and understanding a bit of their care and feeding. [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: yea [10:50] Teravus Ousley: well, the solution is to turn it into a 'producer' of time.. that way you have more of it! [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling we need to tweak some of the already implemented functions a bit [10:50] Nebadon Izumi: tune them in [10:50]  BlueWall Slade: that test harness on the LL wiki might work, but it has been a piat so far [10:51] BlueWall Slade: pita [10:51] Charles Krinkeb: On my tombstone they will probably write "Here lies ckrinke. He may have been an asshole, but he patiently worked through details to find truths" [10:51] Teravus Ousley: Do you see two wings now? [10:51] Charles Krinkeb: just one. [10:52] Charles Krinkeb: back in 5 [10:52] Dahlia Trimble is Online [10:53] Teravus Ousley: now do you see two? [10:53] BlueWall Slade: yes - 2 [10:53] Teravus Ousley: okay! [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: i do [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: what did you do? [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: use a backup? [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :) [10:54]  BlueWall Slade: Hello [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: hello dahlia [10:54]  Teravus Ousley: no, I replaced the old one with a skull attachment [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: ah yea [10:54]  Teravus Ousley: .. then wore it again.. [10:54]  Teravus Ousley: I seem to have lost all animations though [10:55]  Chris D is Online [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: is it an AO? [10:55]  Teravus Ousley: no. [10:55]  Teravus Ousley: just there is no animations running for me. [10:56]  Teravus Ousley: heh [10:56]  Teravus Ousley: looks silly indeed [10:56]  Chris D is Offline [10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: yea maybe just slow [10:56]  Chris D is Online [10:56]  Teravus Ousley: I'm flying.. but nobody can know! [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:57]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: the asset server has been running for 5 days 17 hours without a restart [10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: thats good stuff [10:57] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [10:57] Dahlia Trimble: so thats the problem [10:57] Richardus Raymaker is Online [10:58] Teravus Ousley: I think it was a broken 'edit appearence' that caused the animation malfunctions [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: when i last restarted it, i only restarted it because assets seemed slow [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: restarting did nothing to fix that [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: it remained slow [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: the user server [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: has been running 9 days 20 hours [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: the asset server would have been to [10:58]  Melanie Milland is Online [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: had i not tried that restart [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: hi peeps [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: wow, we're a bit lumpy in here today [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: hi Neb [10:59] Dahlia Trimble: yo JCC [10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: Yo MIssy T [10:59]  Teravus Ousley: yay, I have animations again.. [10:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea so slow eh? [11:00] Teravus Ousley: no.. I had to edit appearence again [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: oh interesting [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: well, frametime appeared to take a massive jump about 30 seconds ago [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: and now again [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: logins [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect justin [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: it spikes [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ouch [11:00] Homer Horwitz: Hi everyone :) [11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey homer [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: mass logins are way better though [11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: no doubt about that [11:00]  Dahlia Trimble: what happened to the login thread thing a while back? [11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: good [11:00]  Teravus Ousley: well, anything 100 ms or over in total frame time is bad [11:00]  Melanie Milland: people were leery about it [11:01]  Melanie Milland: i use it a s aprivate patch [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, from my analysis we were spawning a new thread for logins anyway [11:01]  Melanie Milland: so far no bad effects [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: so the patch wouldn't have made any difference [11:01]  Melanie Milland: it does [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, the rpc was already taking a thread from the thread pool.... [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: yea CPU is 100% [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: bot cores [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: not good [11:02] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: when is this - not now, right? [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes right now [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: this machine is pinned [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: at 100% cpu [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: on both cores [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: it doesn't look like that from top thugh... [11:03]  Charles Krinkeb: Why are we still working then? [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: oh hang on [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see it now [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea seems to be running ok though [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: but that seems wrong [11:03] Homer Horwitz: Movement was a bit slow... [11:03] Teravus Ousley repeats [11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps someone or something is doing something naughty.... [11:03] Homer Horwitz: Taking ~.5s until it reacts [11:03] Teravus Ousley shouts: Anything over 100ms in frame time is BAD! [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: we could try bumping up the client thread priorities.... [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment everything is on the same level [11:04] Dahlia Trimble: one mono is like 190% [11:04] Charles Krinkeb: Maybe turn scripts off? [11:04] Homer Horwitz: Oh. Got a *lot* over 100ms [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: im sure its this mono [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:05] Teravus Ousley: well, it's either a small group.. or nobody else can get on [11:05] Richardus Raymaker is Offline [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: Would anybody object if I tried raising the client thread priority? [11:05] Homer Horwitz: Hm and CIA is either very slow or down. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: im killing Lbsa [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: for now [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, lbsa wasn't eating any cpu though :) [11:05]  Homer Horwitz: I'm getting frame times around 200-250ms, with spikes up to 1300ms [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: yea i know [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: but i want to free up every spec fo this region [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: for now [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah now, we have some idel time [11:06]  Whump Linden: Hey. [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Whump [11:06]  Teravus Ousley notes that for our regions the maximum frame time for it to be 1.0 time dilation is 100ms [11:06]  danx2 danx0r: hi folks [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh, we haven't been at 100ms for a looonng time [11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: I quit looking at stats in the viewer, seemed I would always be dosconnected when I had them on [11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi whump [11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: yo Whump [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: at least, not here in Wright [11:07] Charles Krinkeb: Shall we let Whump go ahead with interop discussion? [11:07] Teravus Ousley: Hello [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea strange [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: CPU dropped [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: right after i killed lbsa [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody stopped being naughty? [11:07] Homer Horwitz: Hi Whump [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: whats up with that i wonder [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think it was immediately after [11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: events are almost certainly uncorrelated I should think [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea it wasw only a minute or 2 though [11:07] Teravus Ousley: Hmm.. Dan you using an experimental client? [11:07] danx1 danx0r: pls excuse my friend, he's blind as a bat [11:07] Whump Linden: Okay, so three things. We've pubished Draft 3 of the OGP spec. Teravus already has it implemented for OGP, we're working on AD and Region updates this week. [11:08] Dahlia Trimble: Go Teravus! [11:08] Charles Krinkeb: Coolness. Moving forward. [11:08] danx2 danx0r: actually I can tell how close you all are [11:08] Whump Linden: 2) We're moving discussions on AWG/OGP to a new list, I'll have the info on that this afternoon. [11:08]  Teravus Ousley: excellent [11:08]  Dahlia Trimble: which list? [11:08]  danx2 danx0r: hmm how did I end up here? [11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: hee hee [11:09]  Charles Krinkeb: its magic, danxor. [11:09]  Whump Linden: 3) I'd like to grab some cycles to help move things forward with the issues you all are running into with grid mode and OGP. [11:09] Teravus Ousley notes that JustinCC is not Video card malfunction black.. first time ever.. . [11:09] danx2 danx0r: ckrinke, I'm running my Python viewer! [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, I have a new laptop! [11:09] Dahlia Trimble: cycles? [11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: which doesn't have that blurdy bug [11:09] Richardus Raymaker is Online [11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Are there things we need to do on the interop end as OpenSim other then get the patches into svn at this time? [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: danx0r, nice :) [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: danxor: how advanced is it? [11:10]  Whump Linden: I'll also note there's been a lot of disucssion about IM in the AWG, so check the recent meeting notes. [11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: thats betetr. [11:10]  Teravus Ousley was at that meeting. [11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: whump: where are the details of the new list going to be posted? [11:10]  danx2 danx0r: someone's updating prims somehwere [11:10]  Whump Linden: Charles, I tink there's additional work on grid mode teleport. [11:10]  danx2 danx0r: this is like the Matrix, with all the green text running down -- [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, some naughty guy manipulating massive prim obnejcts? [11:11]  Whump Linden: Justin: I'll announce on the SLDev and Gridnauts lists. [11:11]  Teravus Ousley: dan, that's my tail probably [11:11]  BlueWall Slade is Offline [11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: whump: cool [11:11] danx2 danx0r: heh, it's interestng [11:11] danx2 danx0r: seeing all the packets as text (well not *all*) [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: ah, don't tell me you're the cause of it all :D [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:11] danx2 danx0r: I'm looking at av and prim updates mostly [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i must say [11:11] Teravus Ousley: arn't I always? [11:11] danx2 danx0r: and chat of course [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 6 of those tail wag scripts [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: will crash a sim [11:11] Charles Krinkeb: On to "what developers need in the next week?" ?? With the proviso that anything previously mentioned is fair to come back to? [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: atleast a version i have [11:12] Whump Linden: Also, are all of the core devs who want to be participating in the Beta there? [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I need an ice cream [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: and a good woman [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: beta for what? [11:12] Charles Krinkeb: Hah. I have both, Justin. [11:12] Teravus Ousley: the OGP beta [11:12] BlueWall Slade is Online [11:12] Dahlia Trimble: me [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: parhaps you should spend more time courting ice cream scoup girls [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: ah, you lucky so and so :) [11:12]  Whump Linden: Charles, I need 30 hour days if you have one in your back pocket. [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh yeah! oh YEAH! [11:13]  Charles Krinkeb: me, too. [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:13]  Homer Horwitz: Want one too [11:13]  Homer Horwitz: Or two, if you have :) [11:13] Teravus Ousley: alas, the ultimate limited resource. upon which everything else is based [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: whump: I don;t have time to participate but I am interested in following the discussions from a little distance [11:13] Dahlia Trimble: I dont have time either, but I'll do it ;) [11:14]  Whump Linden: Justin: the new OGP list will be a good resource to follow. [11:14]  Charles Krinkeb: Ok. What are the things that developers need help from the testers in the next week? ScriptFunction validation? Inventory testing? Region Crossing? Bash crashes? [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: do we know if inventory has improved? [11:14]  Teravus Ousley: I'd like to know if that LSL Test harness will work for us! [11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: I know cmickeyb did some big fixes - possibly they might have an impact on appearance issues too [11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: sofar i see inventory works fine [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: improved yes, fixed i dont think its 100% [11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: needs more testing [11:14]  Homer Horwitz: Well, Teravus is still gray for me [11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: no say 99% [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:15]  Homer Horwitz: So, appearance is still an issue, I guess [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: danx is grey [11:15] Charles Krinkeb: I get the impression that local assets running on a grid region is a problem for an avatar that visits that region who is set to grid assets. [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: yea i guess login baking could be considered part of that problem [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: that's true [11:15] Melanie Milland: yes. but it seems i can't raise a majority for removing that outdated mode [11:15] Melanie Milland: i tried three times noe [11:15] Homer Horwitz: I might take a look at baking... [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: if nobody is saying anything then I would take that as approval to go ahead [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: after a reasonable tiem period [11:16] Melanie Milland: to get some consensus on removing that cruft [11:16] Charles Krinkeb: I also have been looking at "grobe". Google "grobe lsl" and the kan-ed test scripts have been resurrected. [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: only since some time arrachments dropping sometimes after TP. [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: cool [11:16] Teravus Ousley: yeah, I don't have an issue with removing local assets in *GRID* mode [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: yea i noticed every few logins im missing some attachments [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: reattaching fixes the problem [11:16] Chris D: The patch from cmickeyb fixed all of my inventory problems. I have tested with new vatar and minimal inventory as well as my usual inventory. [11:16] Teravus Ousley: local assets in standalone mode.. *I do have a problem with* [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: no consitancy to the problem [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: chris d: good to hear that - good work on that [11:16] Teravus Ousley: .. and I don't really see how you're going to remove the cruft without taking that out also [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: well, one could fairly simply just remove the local assets option [11:17] Homer Horwitz: Teravus: Why? [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: without taking out that code [11:17] Charles Krinkeb: I have no strong opinions other then to not corrupt inventory of existing users. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, that option that only comes into play if you're on grid mode [11:17] Teravus Ousley: because you'd have to launch a second server in standalone for assets.. and that doesn't 'fit' with the design specs of standalone [11:17] Homer Horwitz: Couldn't a (local) asset service be used in that case? [11:17] Homer Horwitz: Hm, we have lot of services running in that one server (one per region, for example). [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I think I'm leaning towards the extended local cache camp [11:18] Homer Horwitz: Would adding an asset service be counterproductive? [11:18] Teravus Ousley: well, there *is* one.. [11:18] Homer Horwitz: Net-based, I mean. [11:18] Homer Horwitz: So, the client side is the same for local and grid [11:18] Teravus Ousley: Well, I have no issue if the process is embedded in OpenSim.exe [11:19] Melanie Milland: well, i would completely revamp the grid mode asset code [11:19] Teravus Ousley: .. just running the separate server in standalone mode is against the specs [11:19] Melanie Milland: and the local asset mode stuff is in the way [11:19] Melanie Milland: it needs to go to really streamline things [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: in the way? [11:19] Melanie Milland: yes. in "needing to keep a certain code structure" [11:20] Melanie Milland: to keep the cruft working [11:20] Homer Horwitz: If we could start another service within the standalone-server for asset, then the client-side could use only grid-based assets (connecting to localhost: in standalone mode) [11:20] Melanie Milland: and, homer, that is where i would like to go [11:20]  Melanie Milland: make standalone an "autoconfigured grid mode on one host" [11:20] Melanie Milland: but not at this stage [11:20] danx1 danx0r: please excuse my pal [11:20] Homer Horwitz: Embedded in standalone, you wouldn't need to start another process for it [11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont see how we can get rid of asset storage in standalone mode [11:20] Teravus Ousley: Sure.. I would have no issue with that really.. so long as the user doesn't have to start up an instance of 'OpenSim.Grid.AssetServer.exe' and then startup OpenSim.exe [11:20] Melanie Milland: right now i'm gunning for "local assets in grid mode" [11:20] Charles Krinkeb: Are we nearing the point where in ordere to move forward, we need to break trunk or reset some mysql tables on OSGrid to help move OpenSim along? [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't have an issue as long as it's develoepd in parallel if at all possible [11:21] danx2 danx0r: hah! SL crashed but my client keeps on trucking [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: how easy would it be to minitor an embedded process to recover from crahes in it, etc? [11:22]  Teravus Ousley: my interest in standalone is for the easy config and test scenario.. the fact of the matter is.. it's really easy to set up.. and that's what it was meant to be. [11:22] Melanie Milland: quite easy. from my experience. we do that in telecoms all the time [11:22] Teravus Ousley: Running a separate asset server from OpenSim.exe is against the heart of that design scheme [11:22] Homer Horwitz: Embedded into where? [11:22] Melanie Milland: ter, i mean to keep that intact throughout [11:22] Melanie Milland: a zero configuration click and go mode [11:23] Teravus Ousley: That's super then. [11:23] Melanie Milland: but i really would like to get some support on changing HOW it is achieved [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: is it going to be possible to develop something alongside the existing code before a possible switchover rather than ripping up the xisting code as you go along? [11:23] Dahlia Trimble: and standalone shouldnt require an external database like mysql [11:23] Melanie Milland: i believe user inventory, assets and caches should be modules [11:23] Melanie Milland: but the current standalone and asset mode cruft ties things fast into core [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: is it going to be possible to develop something alongside the existing code before a possible switchover rather than ripping up the xisting code as you go along? [11:24] Teravus Ousley: justincc x2 [11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey you know, I'm just looking for an answer :) [11:24]  Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:24]  Melanie Milland: justin, only in limited ways [11:25]  Teravus Ousley: are you sure that wasn't a UDP resend? :D [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:25]  Melanie Milland: stage one would be validating that a locally run asset server WILL actually work like local assets in grid mode does now [11:25]  Melanie Milland: and making it so, if it doesn't [11:25]  Charles Krinkeb: Is it also fair to say that the use case of running an OpenSim region on a laptop to develop or demonstrate in standalone is a use case we need to keep? This also plays into the "simple to set up" scenario. [11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: I think so [11:25]  Melanie Milland: charles, that is standalone [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: I feel that it should be possible to get a resonable way without removing the existing standalone structure [11:26] Melanie Milland: justin, yes. +1 [11:26] Melanie Milland: standalone as a mode will be one of the very last things to tackle [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, well that sounds reasonable to me then [11:26] Melanie Milland: there is lots of cruft to resolve, lots of refactoring and modularizing to do first [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: in principle it sounds like a good idea to me - I just would rather not have a period where everything is broken [11:26] Melanie Milland: until it becomes a seasy as sticking lego brocks together ina different way :) [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: and migration paths should be simle [11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: *simple [11:27]  Melanie Milland: brick* [11:27]  Teravus Ousley: house* [11:27]  Whump Linden reads scrollback. [11:27]  Melanie Milland: lol ter [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: are you planning on doing a persistent local asset cache still? [11:27]  Melanie Milland: you need ot make an into/advert for yourself, too [11:28]  Melanie Milland: yes, justin [11:28]  Melanie Milland: configurable, too [11:28]  Teravus Ousley: well, I don't think it would be right for me to write it [11:28]  Teravus Ousley: I'll speak it.. but not write it. [11:29]  Charles Krinkeb: I think one of the keys is to make sure we dont "over support" grid mode and loose our users in business use cases where a standalone region on a laptop helps move their business along. I dont think we hear from any of those on IRC or our mailing list at this time. [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: oh don't worry, I will be representing that corner :) [11:29]  Charles Krinkeb: whew. one less thing to worry about. [11:29]  Whump Linden: and how would it affect regions running OGP? [11:29]  Chris D: I will support you on that justin :) [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: standalone on a laptop probably sells a lot of opensim use cases [11:29] Homer Horwitz: Hm, we could break standalone mode for a while to get feedback about the numbers. [11:29] Homer Horwitz ponders [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: eeeeeehhhhhh [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: :D [11:30] Homer Horwitz grins [11:30] danx1 danx0r: heh first time I sat right-side up around here [11:30] Charles Krinkeb: Good point. We also dont want to loose the OGP standalone compatibility. [11:30] danx1 danx0r: homer -- pls do not break stand-alone! [11:30] Teravus Ousley: hmm. Well, if it's implemented properly.. Whump.. it wouldn't. Except maybe for a new testing period [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: there is ogp standalone capability? [11:30] Homer Horwitz: I don't intend to. [11:30] Teravus Ousley: Yes [11:30] Teravus Ousley: @justincc [11:30] Charles Krinkeb: Thats how the gridnauts started out. [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: standalone is the most popular OGP mode for now [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: you mean, something apart from using the region server to connect to the agent domain? [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: that mode doesn't have its own asset, inventory, etc. in process services does it like orindary standalone? [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhhhh [11:31] Melanie Milland: charles, i have absolutely no intention of removing the plug & play that standalone represents [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: i'm being dumb I think [11:31] Teravus Ousley: It does.. it *is* an ordinary standalone instance.. [11:31] Whump Linden: Justin: there's no inventory at the moment. [11:31] Melanie Milland: only change the way it works internally [11:31] Charles Krinkeb: I think the standalone compatibility gets back to local assets which hold instanced prims, scripts and terrain on OpenSim regions. [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, it's not hooked up to the rest of those services [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: right, right [11:32] Whump Linden: er, no inventory via the Agent Domain. [11:32] Melanie Milland: charles, standalone is not to be confused with grid mode+local assets [11:32] Whump Linden: the sim has it's own asset services. [11:32] Charles Krinkeb: right, whump. We all are not ready to jump off that bridge. [11:32] Melanie Milland: there are 3 ways to skin that asset cat [11:32] Charles Krinkeb: +1. Melanie. [11:32] Melanie Milland: one is as useful a a bike to a fish [11:32] Teravus Ousley: right.. you can log in with the legacy method and everything still works as normal.. or you can log in via the OGP method and the spec-ed things work [11:32] Charles Krinkeb: We could merely disable local assets when gridmode is enabled. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: that would flush out anybody using it [11:33]  Homer Horwitz: Then you'd still need the local asset code [11:33] Charles Krinkeb: And declare that local assets are consistent with standalone mode only. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: as an initial step [11:33] Homer Horwitz: It's not about the usage, it's about the code. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know who else does apart from Taoki [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I think we also need to consider our user community when making these changes [11:33] Charles Krinkeb: How, about a big, red warning message when we startup in gridmode with local assets, in CAPS TO GET THE REGION OWNERS ATTENTION. [11:34] Chris D: Taoki has moved to grid assets now :) [11:34]  Charles Krinkeb: It *might* be a non-event. [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: I dunno - people seem to tend to ignore that stuff :D [11:34]  Melanie Milland: again: [11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think just stopping open sim starting if that option is on would be a first step [11:34]  Melanie Milland: it is NOT m intention to disallow local assets [11:35]  Melanie Milland: it IS my intention to remove it from the code paths [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey wonders how much chat is lagging [11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: ping [11:35]  Melanie Milland: anyone who can run gid mode can also run an asset server [11:35]  Homer Horwitz: Mel: But the local asset mode, right? Local assets via the grid code-paths will stay in [11:35]  Melanie Milland: grid node is NOT plug and play [11:35]  Teravus Ousley: right.. it was never meant to be plug and pray [11:35] Charles Krinkeb: Melanie: disabling it allows wriggle room to change the underlyinig C#. [11:35] Melanie Milland: if you want local assets, you run an asset server locally [11:35] Melanie Milland: easy [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: just simply disable it first and see who cries [11:36] Teravus Ousley: in grid mode, right [11:36] Teravus Ousley: .. in standalone mode.. you won't. [11:36] Charles Krinkeb: right. disable when gridmode is active. [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:36] Melanie Milland: befiore i disable anything, i have to make sure that the esiting regions can run with a local asset server [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the setting has absolutely no effect in standalone mode anyeay [11:36] Melanie Milland: i don't want them to lose their data [11:36] Dahlia Trimble: what database would you propose for a local asset cache? [11:37] Melanie Milland: none [11:37] Homer Horwitz: Whatever is configured? [11:37] Melanie Milland: filesystem-based [11:37] Charles Krinkeb: We will support you as you go throuogh this rocky road, Melanie. [11:37] Homer Horwitz: Ah [11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I think it's worth disabling first to see if anybody out there is actually using it [11:37]  danx2 danx0r: heh, did that without looking [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: +1 on filesystem based [11:37] Homer Horwitz: Makes sense [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it could be that no-one is using that option anyway, in which case you don't have to worry about it [11:37]  danx2 danx0r: can someone say if they see me? [11:37] Homer Horwitz: Especially for assets [11:37] Melanie Milland: ii have a generic cache framework [11:37] Charles Krinkeb: Green shirt, Danxor. [11:37] Melanie Milland: and it's filesystem based [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: or you must have missed that line in config [11:37] Dahlia Trimble: dont see you danx2 [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i sdo [11:37] Teravus Ousley: yea.. by the bushes on the path at the corner of the building.. danx2 [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: over by the Htmlo board [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: other side of bushes [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: behind me [11:38]  Homer Horwitz: Yep, see you [11:38] Charles Krinkeb: May I make a plea for patches to get the last 60-70 LSL function implementations into our commands/api file, again. We are so close now. [11:39] danx2 danx0r: not sure who friended me -- I can't handle that yet [11:39] Teravus Ousley: haha [11:39] Charles Krinkeb: dont worry, dan. The next stop after friend is ostracize. [11:39] Dahlia Trimble: Charles, the vehicle code will probably need to be last and will take a lot of work [11:39] Melanie Milland: dan - is your client graphical yet? [11:39] danx2 danx0r: teravus, thanks for the offer [11:39] Homer Horwitz: I'll have a look at the non-physical LSL functions [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, before doing any major architectural changes it would be nice if we could take a version [11:40] Charles Krinkeb: The vehicle code is about half of the remaining 60-70 functions. Its the other half I am trying to get implementations for. [11:40] Teravus Ousley: agreed! [11:40] Teravus Ousley: take a versioN! [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: +1 version [11:40] Homer Horwitz: The physics parts I consider dragon-infested. [11:40] Charles Krinkeb: 0.5.10 or 0.6 ?? [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yea with a capital N! [11:40]  Teravus Ousley: 0.5.10, of course [11:40] Richardus Raymaker: some lsl for animations seems to miss. [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: 0.5.10 sounds good [11:41] Charles Krinkeb: Aiming for this weekend to tag and bag 0.5.10?? [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: +1 [11:41] Teravus Ousley: Melanie, does that fit your schedule? [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: anytime by my scale [11:41] Charles Krinkeb: Aiming for Sunday at 2000UTC ?? [11:42] Teravus Ousley: Earth to Ms. Milland? [11:42] Homer Horwitz: lol [11:42] Charles Krinkeb: we are not on the earth anymore, Teravus. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Im her it will make a noise [11:42] Dahlia Trimble: maybe we should grab one soon and let it shake out real well in the plazas first? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i literally just upadted this region to head 30 minutes before the meting [11:43] Homer Horwitz: Hm, actually... Should we wait until SQLite is up to speed again? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: just so everyone knows [11:43] Charles Krinkeb: Lets tentatively aim for Sunday at 2000UTC to tag and bag trunk for 0.5.10 and try to concentrate on bug fixes and little or no new features twixt now and then. [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: +1 sqlite [11:43] danx2 danx0r: not sure what's happening but y'all is moving alot [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: sounds good [11:43] Homer Horwitz: It *is* still on the wiki as one of the two supported DBs. [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: you might want to broadcast that out to the mailing lists too :) [11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: is that list still in use ? i hav not seen posts for a long time. [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: homer: yes - how is it at the moment? It seems to be a little sickly [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: sqlite is not that far out of line with mysql [11:44]  Charles Krinkeb: As long as we 1) Dont crash a lot 2) No veto from a core developer 3) No great angst from grid admins, I would say Sunday at 2000UTC is achievable to tag and bag 0.5.10 [11:44] Melanie Milland: yeah. i'm fine holding off [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: Richardus: users or dev? [11:44] Teravus Ousley: ok, I've got agreement from Melanie [11:44] Melanie Milland: still got scripting stuff to verify/fix [11:44] Dahlia Trimble: if we dont have sqlite, we need something just as acompatable that doesnt require admin privileges to install [11:45] Teravus Ousley: .. Sunday we'll tag 0.5.10, and melanie will begin implementing the asset changes [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we want sqlite - I think the issue is that perhaps not so many of us use it.... [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i think its more important to get sqlite inline that torch it [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: I use it [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: certainly a lot of my stuff in mysql now, though I do use sqlite occasionally [11:45] Homer Horwitz: I just remember Mel's post about the table differences in SQLite and MySQL [11:45] Charles Krinkeb: Well, we have sqlite. Its just hurting a bit right now. But, I am running six regions on sqlite right now to the SouthWest. [11:45] Richardus Raymaker: i think its the osgrid one.. :O [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite is good for standalone and dev boxen [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: not for grid [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: oh okay - I was referring to the opensim lists [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I think sdague was writing some unit tests for sqlite [11:46] Homer Horwitz: Yep [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: though I know that's only a fraction of the story [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: though technicly theres no reason you cant run sqlite if you so choose [11:46] Dahlia Trimble: seems to work well fo region storage in grid mode [11:46] Homer Horwitz: Currently, some features are missing. [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: it just wont ever measure up to mysql [11:46] Melanie Milland: i believe we should make some changes [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: very true - that's what the creator of sqlite himself would say [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: Leo Laporte did a podcast with him a few months ago [11:47] Charles Krinkeb: Is there a reason to downplay sqlite in grid mode? It seems a reasonable use case for region prim, script and terrain storage. [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: maby good for the asset cache ? [11:47] Melanie Milland: in the openSim.ini, move the database connect string into standalone and network sections [11:47] Dahlia Trimble: its great for low prim count regions [11:47] Melanie Milland: and create defaults that strongly suggest mysql fir grid mode [11:47] Melanie Milland: make MySQL the default for all grid servers [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it should be fixed, it's just having someone interested in doing that [11:47] Richardus Raymaker: yes [11:48] Melanie Milland: and change the documentation to the effect of"For grid mode, MySQL is stringly recommended for performance reasons" [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: right now i still defauly the osgrid opensim build to sqlite [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: mysql is alraedy the default for grid (non region) servers [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: since we have good tools now [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its not really a huge concern [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: for people to test grid in sqlite [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: then convert later [11:48] Melanie Milland: "If you cannot use MySQL, SQLlite will work, butprovides somewhat reduced overall performance" [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: it makes for a better start experience [11:48] Charles Krinkeb: grid servers, that is UGAIM running on MySQL only is just fine and reasonable. But, I also think it is reasonable to run regions on sqlite or mysql on a grid. [11:49] Melanie Milland: ii believe dsqlite regions are not what we should recommend in grid mode [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I think we're happy to stick with sqlite as a default - just need people to implement the bits and pieces :) [11:49]  Melanie Milland: sqlite is a crutch [11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: reduced performance is understandable but reduced functionality will cause problems [11:49]  Teravus Ousley: I'm sorry,I must depart this meeting early. I'll see you next week, same bat channel.. [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: we are by all means a test grid [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: not a dictating production level grid [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm a little surprised people don't do it since it's not as awkward as doing MSSQL [11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: laterz Ter [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: see you Teravus! [11:49]  Homer Horwitz: bye Teravus [11:49]  Teravus Ousley is Offline [11:49]  Melanie Milland: bye ter [11:50]  Whump Linden: Zero's office hour starting in a couple. [11:50]  Charles Krinkeb: I need to head out also. Thanks for the meeting. Lots of good technical discussion. See you guys and gals on IRC a little later this afternoon. [11:50] Melanie Milland: justin, i believe sqlite is not a suitable defaultfor a grid region [11:50] danx2 danx0r: later teravus [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Charles [11:50] Charles Krinkeb is Offline [11:50] Melanie Milland: i believe a grid region should be sqlite only if the owner makes a conscious decision to use sqlite [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: sqlite seems to work well for low prim count regions in grid mode [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: that goes against the ease of setup argument [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: how much is the speed difference ? [11:50] danx2 danx0r: hey, I'm Linden-free [11:50] Melanie Milland: grid mode is not easy [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: theres no reason you cant switch after testing with sqlite [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: from sqlite to mysql [11:51] Melanie Milland: testing is standalone [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its real easy now [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: some people dont know about standalone melanie [11:51] Melanie Milland: i think grid mode should be mysql as a default [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: alot of poeople just wonder into osgrid [11:51] Melanie Milland: it will save lots of people lots of pain later [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and download our build [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: well, perhaps one could separate out the config stuff so that sqlite remains the default in standalone but mysql is the default in grid mode [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: not aware of svn [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: not everyone can run mysql [11:51] Melanie Milland: that was my plan [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: though then people might just simply change it in grid mode [11:51] Melanie Milland: see above [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: who cannot? [11:51] Melanie Milland: if they change it, fine [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: it's not universal [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:52] Melanie Milland: then they have chosen [11:52] Melanie Milland: power to the people [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: in my opinion that change does require an ask on the mailing list [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: with xammpp or wampp it must be easy to run mysql [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but if it doesnt fireup [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: I cannot run it on my ubuntu server [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: on the 1st tr [11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: we failed [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: under linux its much easyer [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: it wont work [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: it won't? why not? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats the argument [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: it hangs the server [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: its incompatable [11:52] Richardus Raymaker: myql under ubuntu dont work ? [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: not that i agree 100% [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: not on that server [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: on ubuntu 8.04? [11:53] Homer Horwitz: Hm, right, in a hosting environment, you might not have the environment, nor the rights to install it yourself. [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: 8.04 [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, you mean it's some hardware issue?? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: oh right, hosting? [11:53] Homer Horwitz: SQLite will run anyway. [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: i run ubuntu and have done it more times mysql + ubuntu 7.1 & 8.04. no problem [11:53] Homer Horwitz: ... then [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea sqlite always runs [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I dont have the rights to install it [11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: regardless of pre-req [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ah I see [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: I *CAN* use swlite [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: *sqlite [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: aha, now i see [11:54] Melanie Milland: i believe that a lot of people _could_ be using mysql [11:54] Melanie Milland: but don't. [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: hmm, arguably we should have a differnet prim limit with sqlite by default.... [11:54] Melanie Milland: because sqlite is the default [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: once we actually enforce prim limits [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea i try to encourage everyone to switch [11:54] Melanie Milland: then they hit 2000+ prims [11:54] Melanie Milland: and start saying oopensim is slow as shit [11:54] Melanie Milland: and get turned off [11:54] Melanie Milland: if you can't use mysql [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but i think we would be excluding alot fo people from trying if they need to learn mysql [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:54] Melanie Milland: why, then you write sqlit ein there [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: I think sqlite is slow with high prim counts, but I have a 22,000 prim region with sqlite [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: with physics on? [11:55] danx2 danx0r: hmm that's wierd [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: yes [11:55] Melanie Milland: andrun sqlite. the choice remains [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: and the performance is okay? [11:55] Richardus Raymaker: 22.000 cool [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: its a little slow starting up [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: what i think we need [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: honestly [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: are example OpenSim.ini files on the wiki [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: for differnt configurations [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: sounds good [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you want this [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: use this one [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you want that use that one [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I think enforcing the prim limit might be good [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: that would be good [11:56] Melanie Milland: i thought we did [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i heard it doesnt work [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: as far as I know, we don't yet [11:56] Melanie Milland: i see [11:56] Dahlia Trimble: I think the 45000 prim limit that some people are advertising is ludacris [11:56] Melanie Milland: well, that should be made to work [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: when I last lokoed there was no code to do it, and I haven't seen any go in since [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: even that is not a real limit [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, shouldn't be too compilcated [11:56] Melanie Milland: yes. it is [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: from my understanding [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: you can go beyond 45k [11:57] Melanie Milland: 15000 is hard to achieve without top notch hardware [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, the 45000 is just cosmetic [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer just gets mad [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not enforced [11:57] Dahlia Trimble: people are selling 45000 prim regions [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats bad [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody just decided that was a good number :D [11:57] Richardus Raymaker: whats top hardware. i think my hardware is not the probblem. maby my bandwidth is the killer [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, mayube we should just change that number to 10000 then ;) [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: 15k regions are out of reach as of right now [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: IHMO [11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: you may get 45000 boxes with no physics on a 3gb box [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i think 10k is a reasonable # for stability [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: anything beyond that is risky [11:58]  Dahlia Trimble: 10k sounds ok [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: 10k and enforce with a setting in OpenSim.ini could be good [11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: \10K for on region onm a server or more 10K regions ? [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be great [11:58]  Dahlia Trimble: 10k prims/instance [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: although that would need to be enforced across all regions on a server [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: 10k but you can change it [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: to whatever [11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: which could be tricky with our current structure [11:59] danx2 danx0r: well when we support cluster computing these #s will all change for the better [11:59] danx2 danx0r: any decade now [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe hopefully [11:59] Dahlia Trimble has to go.. laterz all :) [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: see you Dahlia [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ok dahlia [11:59]  Homer Horwitz: See you dahlia [11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [11:59]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:00]  Melanie Milland: i don't think a hardcoded limit is a good idea [12:00]  Melanie Milland: but i doo support enforcing parcel prim limits [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: well a configruable limit [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, definitely configurable [12:00]  Melanie Milland: which will work out to whatever is set up [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but have 10k be the current svn default [12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: i have set it anyway already at 10.000 [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: so not to oversell things [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, we can change that number to 10k now [12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: our proclimation that this is what is stable [12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: but it will make sod all difference :) [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, that's true [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: anything beyond this is danger town [12:00] Melanie Milland: i think 10000 is a bad idea, -1 [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps that's a good point [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but its true [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:00] Melanie Milland: it's psychologically bad [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: truth hurts [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its like a bed of pins [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: :P [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: what do you think woulld be a good number? [12:01] Melanie Milland: we should go 15000 [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ok can handle that [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: 15k sounds fine to me [12:01]  Melanie Milland: so people don't see us as "less" [12:01] danx2 danx0r is going to implement /me and name completion [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehehe [12:01] Melanie Milland: COMPARING TO ll [12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: yes. then its at least for the eye the same as sl. [12:01] Melanie Milland: oops [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i can live with that [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: something less outragoues than 45k [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: thats the goal [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, 45000, heh :) [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's nothing like a stretch target :) [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I'm going to pop off now as I'm on the clock [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: hey if we can get there great [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys later [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: later [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i'll post chat to wiki [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: cool [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [12:02] Homer Horwitz: See you Justin [12:02] Melanie Milland: the region prim limit also needs to be moved out of the economy secitons and module [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: indeed [12:03] Melanie Milland: it should be in startup [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i thought that was bad [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its confusing [12:03] Melanie Milland: also, currently, the combat stuff in rolled into the economy module [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but being it doesnt work [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt make a big stink about it [12:03]  Melanie Milland: i propose a combatmodule [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:03] Chris D: Got to go too. Bye All [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ok chris thanks for coming [12:04] Chris D is Offline [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: did you ever get a chance to look at that train script melanie? [12:04] Homer Horwitz: Combat stuff? Did I miss something? [12:04] Melanie Milland: yues [12:04] Melanie Milland: it now works in XEngine [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: oh cool [12:04] Melanie Milland: unmodified [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i'll test it out [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: an get the train working today [12:04] Melanie Milland: that script unciovered a nasty casting bug [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: awesome [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: 25k wasnt wasted [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: cool [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i might put that one in for use as a default script [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: in the default lbrary [12:06] Melanie Milland: it needs work [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:06] Melanie Milland: in opensim, prims don't move as smoothly as in sl [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it can be better im sure [12:06] Melanie Milland: the motion is jerky and very abrupt [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: cant wait to see it working [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i'll mess around with it [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: any prim movement [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: is horrible [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: so it seems [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: important pictures you can betetr store on hdd or somewhere esle .. [12:07] Richardus Raymaker: oops. wrong chat [12:07] danx2 danx0r: melanie, are you on Wright Plaza? [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: other things work great [12:07] Melanie Milland: yes [12:07] danx2 danx0r: strange -- my code reports that you are 176 meters away [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:08] Melanie Milland: i just pushed you [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: 176cm maybe [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:08] danx2 danx0r: but your coordinates say otherwise. I think my client has its furst bug! [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: woooo [12:08] Melanie Milland: that happens to the ll client, too [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea radar always seems wrong here [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: from my script testing [12:09] eaglefx Binder: evening [12:09] danx2 danx0r: someone got some prim action going [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i just stood [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: from a scripted seat [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: say list [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Visitor List: [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Audoa Giha [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Charles Krinkeb [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Teravus Ousley [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: BlueWall Slade [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: danx1 danx0r [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Dahlia Trimble [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Justin Clark-Casey [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Melanie Milland [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Homer Horwitz [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Richardus Raymaker [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Chris D [12:09]  Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Whump Linden [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: danx2 danx0r [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: eaglefx Binder [12:09] Visitor List Recorder v1.1: Total = 14 [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: and now [12:10] Homer Horwitz: Erm. [12:10] Homer Horwitz: That's a bit more than expected. [12:10] Homer Horwitz: Or, at least more than I see. [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: whats that [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: when you stand? [12:10] Melanie Milland: we are all prim and proper [12:11] Homer Horwitz: I only see 8 avatars, not 14. [12:11] Homer Horwitz: Or does the list collect? [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: thats visitor list [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: eveyrone who attended today [12:11] Homer Horwitz: Ah, ok. I thought it lists the current [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: only time i see problem is distance radar [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: the actual proper distance isnt displayed [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: you can be right on it [12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: and it says 24m [12:12] Homer Horwitz: Hm, interesting. [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: woo [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: im rich [12:12] BlueWall Slade: hehe [12:12] Homer Horwitz: You are? [12:12] BlueWall Slade: that works [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: someone sent me 12k [12:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:12] Homer Horwitz: I'm not. L$0 [12:12] Richardus Raymaker: the steal always my money here :) [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: money fight [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: GO! [12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:13]  Homer Horwitz: Thanks. Whoever it was :) [12:13] Melanie Milland: /nme has no helperuri and no money [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehehe [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: im using hippo [12:13] Nebadon Izumi: its all automatic [12:14] Homer Horwitz: Well, hopping out for now. See you on IRC [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok guys [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: my radar seems to work good [12:14] Nebadon Izumi: good meeting [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: bye homor [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: homer [12:14] Homer Horwitz: No crashes :) [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: any meeting that doesnt crash the region is a good one [12:14]  danx2 danx0r: we need a way to be 'away' that is socially acceptible [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:14]  BlueWall Slade: ha [12:14]  danx2 danx0r: like on IrC [12:14]  Homer Horwitz waves and poofs. [12:14]  danx2 danx0r: I'm leaving physically but I'm going to stay logged [12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ok guys see everyone back on IRC [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker: just make a gestare with away comamnd ?! [12:14]  Melanie Milland: you could go to aqway or busy mode [12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: with my large trout cannon [12:15]  Richardus Raymaker: gesture [12:15]  danx2 danx0r: dunce cap?