Chat log from the meeting on 2021-12-14

 [11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew [11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't been using my laptop after lunch so I am on time today. :) [11:01] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi andrew [11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Did all of you spend some time at the OSCC this past weekend? [11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I did [11:03] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: I did [11:03] Ubit Umarov: yeah been there :) [11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep [11:03] Ubit Umarov: ( specially at the end dance party ) [11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't attend any of the post conference activities. [11:03] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: that's why I figured you were busy Ubit [11:04] Ubit Umarov: welcome Lyr :) [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: There are so many talks yet the weekend goes by so quickly. [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr. [11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr [11:04] Ubit Umarov: talking about oscc, Lyr was a major star :) [11:05] Ubit Umarov: i mean participant [11:05] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles [11:05] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great to see everyone! [11:05] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks [11:07] Ubit Umarov: so guess oscc still dominantes most out minds [11:07] Ubit Umarov: our... [11:07] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: workshops all week *grins* [11:07] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:07] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: what I love is how it inspires us to use the software in new and interesting ways [11:07] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, pretty much as it was just a couple of days ago. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: ofc whne no one tries to use it, the software is perfect.. no flaws at al~l [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: My mind is shifting a little as I just discovered Blender 3.0 was released about a week or two ago. [11:08] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Loved the comments during the Q&A... good to know your thoughts on it Yes! [11:08] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: was looking at that [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Ubit. [11:08] Ubit Umarov: but it supposed to be used yes :) [11:09] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/3.0 [11:09] Ubit Umarov: and to see reports on how ppl is using it is great [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I started looking in to a timing issue I've run across in the behaviour of KeyFrameAnimation. [11:09] Jagga Meredith: many changes between 2 and 3? I bought a course and still haven't taken it [11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: That would depend on which point release of v2, Jagga. [11:10] Ubit Umarov: they need to learn with us.. release notes:  "yes we changed a few things" [11:10] Ubit Umarov: who needs to be scared by details? ;) [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ...or read the code. [11:11] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: To me, the morning Keynote and the Q&A both seemed really short. [11:11] Ubit Umarov: or git commits coff cofff coff [11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: For CoolVL no such thing exist [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... git commit messages. "I changed something" [11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: ;) [11:12] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:13] Ubit Umarov: admit it your still stuck on those CO2 commit messages :p [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZIFWEY3l6k [11:13] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins [11:13] Jagga Meredith: thanks [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It did take me a little while to understand the reference to CO2. [11:14] Jagga Meredith: *passes gas* [11:15] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sitting comfotably, Ubit? [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC was a good opportunity to announce the latest release of OS as some of the attendees may not have seen the notice on the website. [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, maybe someone put a tack on his chair [11:16] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins [11:16] Jagga Meredith: Question from one of my people. Excuse his English: "I wanted to know a way to backup the FSASSETS folder without having to take the grid offline and that also doesn't break the assets inside the folder. I wanted to backup to another folder, make a copy of this folder with millions of files to another folder, but without having to take the grid offline. Do you know any way" [11:16] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: he's demonstrating his dismount [11:17] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: very smooth [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Whoopee cushion maybe [11:17] Jagga Meredith: I'm thinking some sort of snapshot? [11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: CO2 filled, of course [11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:17] Ubit Umarov: jagga, file cp should mostly work [11:18] Jagga Meredith: Windows [11:18] Ubit Umarov: seems he sees some locked files. not sure why [11:18] Jagga Meredith: ddid he talk to you? [11:18] Ubit Umarov: at discord, where he asked, sara gave some sugesions [11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, that is a good question. It is something I've wondered about. How to make sure a backup of the assets table and a backup of the fsassets folder are in sync. [11:18] Jagga Meredith: ah ok [11:19] Ubit Umarov: thre should be no locking.. but all that was mostly tested in linux [11:19] Ubit Umarov: in fact one big copy going on as we speek [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: File locking may be a Windows thing. I've seen Windows complain about locks on files before. [11:19] Ubit Umarov: the osgrid assets [11:20] Ubit Umarov: from old datacenter to new [11:20] Ubit Umarov: as you know [11:20] Jagga Meredith: yup [11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it a real datacenter? [11:21] Ubit Umarov: yes think dan gaveup putting servers under his bed [11:21] Ubit Umarov: :p [11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some put them in the bathroom [11:22] Ubit Umarov: well osgrid ones at least :) [11:22] Jagga Meredith: Mine's on my bedside table [11:22] Ubit Umarov: bathroom should have water closer in case of fire.. but who knows [11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or for water cooling [11:22] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, Off the top of my head, I think the best sequence is to backup the assets table then the FSASSETS folder. If any assets are created after the table backup you will still be sure to have all the assets referenced by the table and possibly a few extras. [11:23] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Copying the files should be done by something that can check if a file exists in the target directory (e.g. rsync in Linux) to make copying of asset files faster when backed up on a regular basis. [11:25] Ubit Umarov: yeah Sara did recomend rsync and a windoes identical tool [11:26] Ubit Umarov: ( sara from fireandice i think ) [11:26] Jagga Meredith: ok [11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Do you remember which panel covered that topic? [11:27] Ubit Umarov: opensimworld then opensimulator? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: or #opensimulator of opensimworld.com?? [11:28] Ubit Umarov: bahhh hate discord [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I have Discord because I occasionally help a group of people with things related to OS and they use Discord to keep in touch with each other. [11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't look at it that often. I am in perpetual Away mode. :) [11:31] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I use it more now that we plan the conferences using it [11:31] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and for coordinating games [11:31] Ubit Umarov: wel at least it is not FB [11:31] Ubit Umarov: or Meta.. [11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I mostly ignore FB unless I heard of a posting on it that is public and I want to see. There is one such video posting at the moment I haven't watch. [11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If I disappear it is just because of a test... [11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. Thanks for the heads up. [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it still works - logging myself in again on the home grid [11:35] Ubit Umarov: and he does all testing with no helmet or even hair !! [11:35] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins [11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't like hair on fire [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I know someone who is interested in sending messages output from an embedded system in to something visible in-world. I've only just started testing inbound HTTP again. It has been a while since I last tried it. [11:36] Ubit Umarov: :) [11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ...which the prim hairs of the time did: setting the GPU on fire [11:37] Jagga Meredith: security implications? [11:38] Jagga Meredith: don't want to open door to griefedr code [11:38] Jagga Meredith: griefer [11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hackers launch over 840,000 attacks through Log4J flaw [11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't thin opensim is the target right now [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: It is something that has been possible for a long time. If one has any concerns about it you can always set up a firewall to control the source of the incoming data. [11:40] Ubit Umarov: ofc they did [11:40] Ubit Umarov: as soon someone reports a issue in public, all kids in world go mess with it [11:41] Ubit Umarov: i many case turn a minor thing, into a gib issue [11:41] Ubit Umarov: big also [11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: A central government site has closed here because of it [11:42] Jagga Meredith: used to do network security. loys of Chinese "script kiddies" attacks [11:42] Ubit Umarov: bet had been running fine for years with no issues [11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course :-) [11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it may even have had visitors for some time [11:43] Ubit Umarov: adn think that is above all a XML bug [11:44] Ubit Umarov: or a processing bug of a xml nonsense thing [11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we must stop using XML... - Oh, wait! [11:44] Ubit Umarov: well all xml is nonsense.. details [11:44] Ubit Umarov: now all say that gavin.Hird [11:44] Ubit Umarov: new "god" is JSON [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all XML in the content must be converted to JSON [11:45] Ubit Umarov: dotnet 5 changing all to json [11:45] Ubit Umarov: bahh [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it? [11:45] Ubit Umarov: yeah [11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that sounds like a major setback [11:45] Ubit Umarov: well as recomended thing etc [11:46] Ubit Umarov: main serielizer for c# things blabla [11:47] Ubit Umarov: how sad how ll also loves xml [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will soon love json [11:47] Ubit Umarov: most viewer/region http protocol is just a crippled xml variant [11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah [11:48] Ubit Umarov: net load is 95% xml overload for 5% of real data [11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: object storage, inventory [11:48] Ubit Umarov: our oars are insane also [11:48] Ubit Umarov: huge waste of space just because xml [11:49] Ubit Umarov: well oars we can change.. one day [11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot more text to pass back and forth and a bit more overhead to parse all that text to extra the data you want from it.. [11:49] Ubit Umarov: adding other format [11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: - but tehy are tokenized, or? [11:51] Ubit Umarov: and opensim devs, not happy, do love to use long names lol [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: One panel at the OSCC that I particularly made a point of attending is the one talking about the progress on SceneGate, EchoGate, and voice system replacement. [11:52] Ubit Umarov: a linkset name.. must be  ofc [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least boolean and DteTime_ISO8601 will be available in the viewers soom [11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 whispers: DateTime_ISO8601* [11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: What's worse is xml structure that ends up not being used for anything, like in iars saving group data when inventory items cannot be group owned in the first place [11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Mostly fake news Andrew [11:54] Ubit Umarov:    just the amount of bytes wasted just on this names [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-) [11:55] Ubit Umarov: when would had been great [11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can't use TLAs [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, It might not be so much about being fake but just showing they still have a lot of work to do before we will be likely to see their work deployed for users other than alpha or beta testers. [11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A lot of things also parse strict sets of data that never changes, so technically  would suffice even [11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what I mean by fake news is they pretend it is "official" opensim, when in reality there are big companies behind [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope they can get done what they envision. There have been several attempts at making a new viewer and most of them haven't gone anywhere. [11:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Can always change things to write different so long as reading is kept compatible [11:57] Jagga Meredith: number them similar to Goedel equations? [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they can't. I had a long talk with Frank after [11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the renderer has no features to handle dynamic content whatsoever [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks will have to look up Goedel equations. [11:59] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for those who read this chat and missed the conference, the point was the viewer panel for SceneGate, DreamGate, EchoVoice and IMABox asked for the ability to decouple the rendering engine [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Diva had worked on a viewer that was using a game engine that wouldn't normally handle dynamic content. I think it was working. Not sure to what extent it was tested with changing content. [11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: + the rigging system and vertex mapping is completely differnt [11:59] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: OnLook [12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so all content must be transformed [12:00] Ubit Umarov: Uff [12:01] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: What do you recommend? [12:01] Ubit Umarov: tell story right [12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for what it is worth the LL renderer is one of the very few that handles dynamic content with any grace [12:01] Jagga Meredith: *mutters* having enough trouble copying it [12:01] Ubit Umarov: Melanie did work on a game engine based viewer ( i did something on it also) [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: It is not a trivial task. [12:02] Ubit Umarov: then she made it public.. but that engine license was just not compatible with opensim uses [12:02] Ubit Umarov: so other engine was selected [12:02] Ubit Umarov: and Diva did some bootstrap codinf on that new engine... [12:03] Ubit Umarov: the engines where Unreal and Xenko [12:04] Ubit Umarov: within the closed scope of a viewer for a closed grid like Avination, possible unreal could be made to work [12:05] Ubit Umarov: with still a lot of efford [12:05] Ubit Umarov: to possivle acheive 1/ of the firestorm fps on same conditions [12:05] Ubit Umarov: when we stopped it was doing like 6fps where fs did 40 [12:06] Jagga Meredith: any engines support NFT's yet? [12:06] Ubit Umarov: reason the well known one [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, that's becoming the latest "buzzword" [12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dunno [12:06] Ubit Umarov: all game engines depend on pre compiled and optimized content [12:06] Jagga Meredith: yeah, I know [12:07] Ubit Umarov: no can do dinamic content with any performance [12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think tehre was an ARS article on that a few days back and it said it did not work [12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: must go -- bye all [12:07] Ubit Umarov: much less user content [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. tc. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour mark for today. Is there anyone with any questions related to OS that they have been waiting to ask? [12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/12/ubisofts-first-nft-plans-make-no-sense/ [12:08] Ubit Umarov: tpvs we use do have a rendering engine made for dynamic content [12:08] Ubit Umarov: and actually do well comparing to game engines [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, and some performance improvements are in the works [12:09] Ubit Umarov: on this note the most games engines just do not try to optimize dynamic content at all [12:09] Ubit Umarov: they just do not use it [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the biggest want, from my side are support for arbitrary rigs [12:09] Ubit Umarov: or do ver limited use of it [12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most game engines want all content to be known at compile time or startup time [12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with arbitrary rigging, Kayaker could make his sails and so on [12:10] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you, no questions *smiles* [12:11] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I like Gavin's request [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The engines used in Blender are able to handle changing conditions in pretty much real time. They may be amongst the few systems that can. [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: changing conditions and adding content in real time is not necessarily the same [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: One other ask that came up was inworld mesh editing. That is a big can of worms. It would be hard to do a decent mesh editor inworld compared to external tools. [12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose Blender cannot handle adding physics objects in realtime [12:12] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: I gotta go yall be well [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jamie. [12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Cheers Jamie [12:13] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Jamie [12:13] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you [12:14] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I plan mine in advance and have not used 3.0, Gavin [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, not quite the same but the video showing how quickly a scene was updating when they dragged and dropped assets in to a scene is quite impressive. That is similar to how we drag items out of inventory to be rezzed. [12:14] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: impressive features in 3.0 [12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and no Andrew [12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does avastar work at all with 3.0? [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure if they have updated it to work with 2.9 [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is an update for 0.9.2 [12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which I paid for a few days back [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 2.9.2 [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't updated my copy of PrimStar in ages. [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not 0.9.2 of course, haha [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, they now want people to pay for updates? [12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 1 year sub [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: :P [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: It used to be free updates, IIRC. [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but not any more... [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: everything is sub now [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: annoying [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Definitely. I don't see myself updating Primstar any time soon. [12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Substance painter is like $30 or more per month [12:19] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: didn't realize primstar was updating...mine's old [12:19] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I need to renew avastar...was waiting for 3.0 *grins* first [12:19] Ubit Umarov: clever girl :) [12:19] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: all things change [12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It could add the avastar rig or character to the scene in 3.0 [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, I haven't updated my copy in a long time. I'm thinking there may be an update. I just haven't used it in so long I haven't even checked. The copy I have may not work in the version of Blender I now have. [12:20] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for years, Primstar was frozen at about 2.6.8, I though or a little before it. But I get distracted by work and lose track of these things [12:21] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I subscribe to CG Cookie, but am behind there, too [12:21] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://cgcookie.com/ [12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: The last version of it I have is 2-dev-309 for blender-2-59 [12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I never bothered to upgrade Substance painter after Adobe made it sub [12:23] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes that's it [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Adobe seems to be moving a lot of their things to subscriptions. [12:23] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I thought mine was for a 2.6 release, but could easily be wrong [12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all, Andrew - all [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: If you make money from using a program or use it enough it could be worthwhile. Not so much for the casual user of a program. [12:24] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, I pay a monthly fee to them, despite my love of GIMP [12:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There are free versions of software like substance painter, one I recall is Material Maker, it's on itchio [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: We are starting to stray rather OT from OS. If there are no other OS related questions/comments for today I'll wrap up todays meeting. [12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Sure Vincent, but when you have content already made in substance, it is a drag to remake it [12:25] Jagga Meredith: *passes Andrew a bowq* [12:25] Jagga Meredith: bow [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Jagga. [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks puts the bow on todays meeting [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks grins [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.