Chat log from the meeting on 2011-12-06

[11:22] BlueWall Slade: hi Key, MD [11:23] Dutchy Daredevil: Astra is fuine now [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: btw Neb, have you ever seen a phenomena where a scene opresence is completely invisible to someone? [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: not even a name tag [11:23] Master Dubrovna: Hi everyone [11:23] Ubit Umarov: (greetings) [11:23] Key Gruin: HI VivK L, Arielle, BlueWall, Justin, Neb, all [11:23] BlueWall Slade: Hi Ubit [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: not completely Justin [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hi key [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hi ubt [11:23] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ubit [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: but there have been times lately where parts of the scene turns invisible [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ive noticed it myself [11:23] BlueWall Slade: with Imp 1.4x? [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:24] VivK Lowlag: I've seen it in Astra once or twice [11:24] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I noticed that parts would go missing when it came out [11:24] Dutchy Daredevil: Cool Neb [11:24] BlueWall Slade: I still use 1.3.0 because of that [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: stop with that, its way to load the media. dont understand why the slider refuse. [11:24] Dutchy Daredevil: no more frozen now [11:24] Richardus Raymaker: music / media almost at zero [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall, don't move a muscle [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus, I think its stuff that plays through flash [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: the volume slider does not work [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: anything that goes through gstreamer or quicktime would though [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: ok, you can move if you want [11:27] BlueWall Slade: what was up? [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: you were grey but resending your appearance data fixed it [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: uch.. i disanled media complete now. youtube always to load [11:27] BlueWall Slade: ok [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: which implies I didn't receive it properly originally [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: hum [11:27] BlueWall Slade: hmm [11:27] Richardus Raymaker: hum, no inworld is maby not hard enough. [11:27] BlueWall Slade: ok, I did a rebake to see if I got error messages [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: when did you rebake? [11:28] Key Gruin: oops I just rebaked too, hope it did't confuse the data [11:28] BlueWall Slade: a few min agao [11:28] BlueWall Slade: after I relogged [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: pff, thanks a lot key :) [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: hi key [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I see everyone fine [11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: apar tfrom bluewall just now [11:29] Key Gruin: hi Rich [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: heh dave your looking mighty oompaloop [11:29] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: :) [11:29] Key Gruin: I'm amazed the scene rezzed so fast for me here [11:30] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: i just created the grid i came from a few mins ago and don't have any inventory. so might as well go oompa loompa. [11:30] Dutchy Daredevil: Hi dave [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: lol [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ah cool [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: simiangrid? [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: or robust? [11:30] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: robust [11:30] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: i don't know the current state of HG in SG [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: cool, was wondering if you were testing simiangrid HG stuff [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: was having an interesting conversatio nwith Mic earlier about reaping stuff from the asset db [11:30] VivK Lowlag: I miss the sombrero [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: hi dave [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: he thinks it should be possible with access times and backups of old ata [11:30] Ubit Umarov: so that's wah yr a bit short dave? [11:30] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: i have it somewhere [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya i just don't kow Justin, its risky business for sure [11:31] Ubit Umarov: (.. why...) [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt its theoreticly possible [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but id be afraid to mess with peoples assets myself [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's easier in a situation where one entity controls and entire grid, for instance. [11:31] Richardus Raymaker: you mean cleanup the database to compress it ? [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: even if you tell people to backup t ooars/iars they don't necessarily do it.... [11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: no, just delete unaccessed assets [11:32] Ubit Umarov: iars are a bit painfull to save [11:32] Arielle Popstar: i better stop procrastinating on a new iar [11:32] BlueWall Slade: how big is the assets data now? [11:32] Nebadon Izumi: 1.1tb [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: yeah. it feels sometimes bad to build or rezz :O more load on db. [11:32] BlueWall Slade: @.@ [11:32] Richardus Raymaker: but sooner or later it must be done soemway [11:33] BlueWall Slade: that's with dups removed too? [11:33] Ubit Umarov: ( and not counting trash? ;) ) [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: well we are going to instiute compression soon, that should buy us some time I think [11:34] Richardus Raymaker: trash, i think many never empty that. [11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I thought you were alreayd compressing in sras? [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: might take a moth to compress [11:34] Ubit Umarov: i did it once already big [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no im talking about gzipping assets [11:34] Mimetic CoreMimetic Core empties his trash... [11:34] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: sras supports compression. osgrid isn't presently using it. [11:34] Key Gruin: just got for of these viewer errors after a rebake: http://i.imgur.com/ExZ7k.png [11:35] Ubit Umarov: can't it be automated ? [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: trash emptying doesn't help anyway [11:35] Key Gruin: four* [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: ah, right [11:35] Richardus Raymaker: right [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:35] BlueWall Slade: we update timestamps on access? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:35] BlueWall Slade: :( [11:36] BlueWall Slade: that makes it hard [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: you don't need to update very time anyway, just occasionally [11:36] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: makes what hard? [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: say if last update time was more than a month ago [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: access time, I mean [11:36] BlueWall Slade: to know when it is last accesssed [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno to me that sounds potentially expensive, someone mentioned updating it only when it was about to expire or something, but I don't know how that would manage to work [11:36] Ubit Umarov: possible robust etc needs some love to optimiza better db use [11:36] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002 doesn't understand why anyone is intereted in last access time [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: something has to be done about assets evnetually [11:36] BlueWall Slade: yeah, I noticed we use replace into [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: Dave.Coyle: the idea is to archive assets which have not been accessed, say, in the last 6 months [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya but then what [11:37] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: why? disk is cheap. [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but you think you can grow forever? :) [11:37] Richardus Raymaker: what about script, do the get updated, or everytime a new one ? [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: a distributed hash table to cover the planet, perhaps? [11:37] Arielle Popstar: what is the rate it is increasing by? [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: every time you save a script that's a new copy [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: it makes a new asset? [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: we have not really monitored it to that level Arielle [11:38] BlueWall Slade: yes [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: eep [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the architecture of sl [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: copy on write [11:38] Dutchy Daredevil: in events they using different times to be used [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but the grid is 4 1/2 years old [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and its got 1.1tb of assets [11:38] Dutchy Daredevil: its not GMT in been told [11:38] BlueWall Slade: I had a lot in my grid [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: It should save only the current version of a script [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: compression might get that down to 600gb maybe [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you knew some of those assets hadn't been accessed for 4 years [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: 600-700 i suspect [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I think they would be good candidates for archiving [11:38] BlueWall Slade: yeah [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya but what happens when someone wants them? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: then what [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: they should have kept backups? :) [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah yeah, I know :) [11:39] BlueWall Slade: I noticed that some things took a while when I went to SL one day [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ok how do they get to the backups? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:39] Arielle Popstar: so could be another 2 years before you have 2 Terybytes\ [11:39] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: justin: no, it won't last forever. but it doesn't need to. [11:39] BlueWall Slade: I suspect they dumped my stuff to an archive [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: dave.coyle: You're expecting global warming to do us in? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:40] BlueWall Slade: haa [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: 2012 is coming up here quick [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: we should be alright ti'll then [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhhh :) [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, who sees grey people! [11:40] BlueWall Slade: UNIX time runs out in 2038 or something [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: ? [11:40] Ceecee Flores: I see world and avatars fine [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how that will get fixed [11:40] Key Gruin: I can see all fine [11:40] BlueWall Slade: no Grays [11:40] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: justin: who is having real problems with asset storage? [11:41] BlueWall Slade: Daloona Lyle is clear [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: Dave.Coyle: no actual problem, I admit - just people nagging me [11:41] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: all this talk about culling assets... what real problem is this solving [11:41] BlueWall Slade: except for the attached clothes [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: ok [11:41] BlueWall Slade: if you want to solve it, start charging per-inventory item [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: any difference? [11:41] BlueWall Slade: storage [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: charing gis not appropriate in all use cases [11:41] Richardus Raymaker: neb can say how hard the database crow with user count [11:42] BlueWall Slade: nope [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I see Daloona just fine, I have to say [11:42] BlueWall Slade: I know - but as long as it's free, it will grow [11:42] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: 5 years worth of osgrid assets... all of them, can fit uncompressed on a $150 hard drive. where's the problem that needs to be solved? [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya i suspect in reality culling assets would save us at most maybe 10% of space [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of work for little reward i suspect [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I tihnk you're vastly underestimating neb [11:42] BlueWall Slade: I think this have slowed down since the last SL policy about exporting inventory [11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: that is a good argument. I'll present that the next time I'm nagged :) [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: and see what people come up with [11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: it's probably more a problem having assets in the db in robust [11:43] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: yeah [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya that def has shelf life [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: 10% only? [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno Andrew its hard to say [11:43] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: with the asset deduping [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: alot of the old assets are already gone [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: into 1 asset [11:44] Richardus Raymaker: it would be nice if a prim you only use once and onloy private would be deleted complete [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: plus alot of that old stuff is still used [11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, true. deduping due to sras already saves a lot of space [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: your assuming none of it is being used [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, does anybody else have any other opensim issues today? [11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I still don't see profile working on my standalone OS instance :-) [11:45] Key Gruin: http://i.imgur.com/ExZ7k.png [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: Key Gruin [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: did you see that today here at WP? [11:45] Key Gruin: is that an opensim issue or viewer [11:45] Key Gruin: yes Neb [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ack [11:45] Key Gruin: just a few minutes ago [11:45] Key Gruin: after a rebake [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: blah [11:45] Key Gruin: 4 of them [11:45] Arielle Popstar: inventory losses with hg jumps [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: they do happen [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but frequency may be changed [11:46] Ubit Umarov: No handler resgister for lldd request ? [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: hmm [11:46] Arielle Popstar: one way of reducing assets ;)\ [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: yeah, I think diva may look at that soon [11:46] Ubit Umarov: lsld i mean [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: 3rd time lucky? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess 1 out of 16 isnt too bad [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: If anyone here has been using the ossearch module, there have been some updates in the last week. Some bugs were fixed, some improvements made to a few searches, and it will now show events on map [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: 1 out of 16? [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i just have not heard anyone mention that llsd thing for a long time [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: 1 out of 16 avatars [11:47] Nebadon Izumi: getting that error [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: it was a lot higher before? [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its just been a long time since anyone has mentioned it [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i dont recall anyone mentioning it for a long time [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: until this week [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i cant really say, ive never experienced it [11:48] Key Gruin: it just started popping up again [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I did make a change which might have increased the frequemcy [11:48] Ubit Umarov: go it on lbsa yesterday checking apperance neb [11:49] Dave.Coyle @osrv.vw.coyled.com:8002: fwiw i got a 'failed to upload' popup here earlier too but i didn't read the message enough to know if it said the same thing. just assumed it was new grid + hg wonkiness. [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: we reverted it for this meeting. So I'm not sure if the one you saw is at the previous level of frequency or whether reverting the change had no effect [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya i need to update lbsa to really know [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: that is where everyone has been talking about it happening the most [11:49] Arielle Popstar: i saw it coming in also for 4 different things [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i'll get that updated asap [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: 8 people there at the moment [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, update lbsa then let me know [11:50] Key Gruin: I'll go there and try after you upate Neb [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:51] VivK Lowlag: you can count me to help test [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ok cool, that would be good anyone who is experiencing it often [11:51] BlueWall Slade: try after a teleport-vs-direct login too [11:51] BlueWall Slade: I got them after teleporting here [11:51] Key Gruin: ok [11:51] BlueWall Slade: after relogging, I don't get them [11:52] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.3 Dev         8721841: 2011-12-06 18:37:13 +0000 (Unix/Mono) [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya dan has been telling everyone to relog [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: well, one thing with doing asset reaping is people would feel more comfortable uploading baked textures to the asset service [11:52] BlueWall Slade: and, I was re-routed too [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: usually it won't happen after they do [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: then we wouldn't need to ask for rebakes on every teleport/login, which would improve appearance [11:52] BlueWall Slade: is there a way to make the region cache them? [11:52] Key Gruin: I wonder if it was necessary for me to rebake at that point? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: region already caches them [11:53] Ubit Umarov: about assets saw what's wrong around or about that multicast delegate i showed you justin ? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: but the mechanism not to ask doesn't yet exist [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ubit: it looks fine to me [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: couldnt we just save bakes in a special way? [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: need more evidence that there's a problem [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: so they always get overwritten? [11:53] BlueWall Slade: is there a good reason to put them on the assets server? [11:53] Ubit Umarov: but it is not justin.. pragmaticly speaking [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I don't know off the top of my head [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: so if you teleport elsewhere the regio ncan juts fetch them [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: instead of doing the tricky rebake [11:54] BlueWall Slade: could we send them with the avatars other assets? [11:54] BlueWall Slade: I guess that could get out of hand [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not fond of that approach since it leaves you at the mercy of bad simulators [11:54] BlueWall Slade: yes [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, faulty rather than malicious [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: the same problems that might be occuring around teleport [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: or even just bad network connections rather than faulty [11:54] Ubit Umarov: and that does assets requested 'at same time' as i said [11:55] Ubit Umarov: does afect [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ubit: the code appears correct [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ubit: I couldnt' see any reason that all event handlers wouldnt be called [11:55] Ubit Umarov: justin.. you say well apears [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I dont' have the time to actually test it [11:55] BlueWall Slade: so, maybe we can come up with some scheme to remove those after a while? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: yes, have access times and reap aftre a period [11:55] BlueWall Slade: my avatar is probably the only one in the metaverse that never changes [11:55] BlueWall Slade: lol [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: we even know that the assets are marked temporary in this case.... [11:56] BlueWall Slade: do the dynamic textures act that way too? [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [11:56] BlueWall Slade: it's too bad we can't probe for unused assests [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: it's impossible except in closed systems [11:57] BlueWall Slade: how about oars? [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: what about them? [11:57] BlueWall Slade: they keep a copy [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: so? [11:57] BlueWall Slade: I'm just thinking [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:57] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey is getting increasinly cantankerous in his old age. [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: you could save all oars, but that doesn't help with inventory [11:57] BlueWall Slade: what are the cases that probing for unused assets would hang us? [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: you could stop the grid, save all oars and all iars, maybe [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: but you have to persuade all regions to do it [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: which is okay if you control them all [11:58] BlueWall Slade: no, I was thining the reverse [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: you can't identiyf unused assets wihtout taking all oars and iars [11:58] BlueWall Slade: if we probe for unused assets and remove some - maybe an oar is using them... [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as the oar saved the assets it's fine [11:58] BlueWall Slade: but, that is the purpose of an oar, lol [11:58] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey doesn't understand [11:59] Ubit Umarov: and how to kknow it is a unused thing ? [11:59] BlueWall Slade: we would have to probe all the prims/primitems in each region [11:59] BlueWall Slade: all objects, scripts, notecards...... [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya the stuff i worry about is stuff in inventory [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: that is coded in script [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: for a certain UUID [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: oars and iars chase that stuff down [12:00] VivK Lowlag: some firewalls wouldn't take to kind to a probe [12:00] BlueWall Slade: like calling up textures by the uuid [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: it would be impossible [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: or sounds [12:00] BlueWall Slade: there woudl have to be code in the region [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: someone logs out for a year [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: the code already exists for oars/iars [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and comes back, all their stuff is broken [12:00] BlueWall Slade: hehe [12:01] BlueWall Slade: yeah, think the sit pos thing was an issue [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we have people all the time coming into IRC saying i havent logged in for a year [12:01] BlueWall Slade: O.O [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and i forgot my password [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: or forgot what email i used [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, as it's not an issue for osgrid I wouldnt' worry about it [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: might do access times at some point, but reaping woul dbe an extenral opeeration anyway [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: and even then. access times are purely service side [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: alright ) [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: hmm I think of more importance [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: would be to figure out why the damn simulators leak memory [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: WP has almost trippled memory usage [12:03] BlueWall Slade: haa [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: since start of meeting [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: empty fresh sim is like 500mb on show stats [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its now reading 1331mb [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know [12:03] BlueWall Slade: I have had a single script in a region with almost nothing else eat up 7G in less than an hour before. [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya me either [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: mono issue or OS isssue causing leaks? [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to go. See you around, folks [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it would make a bit more sense if we were all building and scripting or something [12:04] Ubit Umarov: wel it got us.. our prims our texts etc [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but we have just been chatting [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: cya, Justin [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:04] BlueWall Slade: thnkas JCC, have a good evening [12:04] Key Gruin: bye Justin [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ok later Justin, thanks for coming [12:04] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves