Chat log from the meeting on 2009-11-10



[10:59] Charles Krinke: morning. Hope all is well. [10:59] Friendly Harbour: hello charles [10:59] Adelle Fitzgerald: yep, things are good :) [10:59]  Kitto Flora: Not all is well :} [10:59]  Charles Krinke: Hi, Friendly [11:00]  Adelle Fitzgerald: whats not well, Kitto? [11:00]  Kitto Flora: #4336 [11:01]  BlueWall Slade: hmmm [11:01]  Friendly Harbour: hello justin, strawberry and blue [11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: Greetings folks [11:01]  Strawberry Fride: evenin' all :) [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hey Friendly [11:01] BlueWall Slade: sim is misbehaving badly [11:01] Kally Rakan: hi all [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: oh Bluewall? [11:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello [11:01] Friendly Harbour: .... and kally :) [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone [11:03]  Charles Krinke: Morning, Nebadon [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: so hows everyone doing? hows OpenSim treating you? [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: like a bitch [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:03]  BlueWall Slade: hawaa, finally made it [11:03]  Friendly Harbour: O.o [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: things have been pretty stable overall for me [11:04]  Kitto Flora: I check it now and then, same problem still there, blocking progress [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: whats blocking progress? [11:04]  Kitto Flora has shelved the vehicle project [11:04]  Charles Krinke: What would you suggest,Kitto [11:04]  Kitto Flora: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=4336 [11:04]  Kitto Flora: Since about the time 'prioritization' was worked on the client viewer no longer receives updates about physical objects that are only rotating. This wrecks such effects at 'VERTICAL_ATTRACTOR' and llRotLookAt. [11:05] Kitto Flora: I suggest that JH be convinced to fix his mess. [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: your welcome to fix it [11:05]  BlueWall Slade: there are other things that don't get updated in the scene - maybe they are related [11:05] Kitto Flora: I'd sooner work on a better version of the project [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: all suggestions and patches are welcome [11:06] Charles Krinke: Perhaps a PM between yourself and JH, Kitto? [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ok so then you would rather not try to work it out? next subject? [11:07] Kitto Flora: Er - he reads Mantis - he even poseted one question on the subject. [11:07] Charles Krinke: Or more discussion o #opesim-de of th issue [11:07] Kitto Flora: I'll answer any questions he has [11:07] Kitto Flora: But in two weeks he has asked one thing only [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: have you spoken to him other than 1 message with no detail on a mantis? [11:07] Kitto Flora: No [11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: kitto: Well, he's a busy guy right now, I think [11:07] Nebadon Izumi: well then why do you expect results? [11:08] Kitto Flora: He has not contacted me other than that one Q on mantis [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its not his job to contact you [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: you should be contacting him honestly [11:08] Charles Krinke: I understand. Sometimes a PM or a discussion on #opensim-dev helps to break a log jam in perception. [11:08] Kitto Flora: Be cause the Mantis is assigned to him and it is clearly still outsatnding [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: well then you should be speaking directly to him [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it seems to me the ball is more in your court in that regard [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: dont wait for him to contact you [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it wont happen [11:09] Kitto Flora: That is very strange reasoning [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: he is busy [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: SC09 is coming up [11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: Intel development of OpenSimulator is on hold [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: probably another week or two [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: before jhurliman has time to devote again [11:09] Kitto Flora: OK [11:09]  Kitto Flora: I have plenty of other projects to get on with [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i think once SC09 is over they will have a lot more time [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its sort of a big thing for them as the Intel CTO or something is the key speaker [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, v busy time for them [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: they are presenting OpenSimulator at the event [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: could be some really good exposure of OepnSim for the long term [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: during the opening speech [11:10] Kitto Flora: Is that a public RL event? [11:10] Kally Rakan: hope noone creates a folder or tries editing hair >_< [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: Super Computing 2009 [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: its a very big thing [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: http://sc09.supercomputing.org/ [11:11] ARADTech KoolKam: Hello all :) [11:11]  Kitto Flora: Maybe I'll see if someone can ask at the meeting why they broke OS [11:11]  Andress Renault waves quietly listening. [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: Kitto are you just here to be counter productive? [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: is that why you came today? [11:11]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think thats a bit unfair, Kitto [11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: cause it sure sounds like thats why your here [11:12]  Kitto Flora: No, I'm here to try get OS moving along. [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: by offending people? [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: that wont work [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, this is a dev talk, so sometimes things will be broken for a period [11:12]  Kitto Flora: You asked whats broken [11:12]  Kitto Flora: I told you [11:12]  Kitto Flora: If anyone getting offended around here, its me [11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya but your acting like jhurliman broke it just to annoy you [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its not appreciated [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, maybe we should move on [11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya lets please [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: next topic [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: anyone have anything productive? [11:13] Kitto Flora: Leaving it broken for 2 weeks ... it gets suspicious [11:13] BlueWall Slade: Neb, remember when we were looking at the objects that wouldn't go after llDie ? [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya i noticed thats still happening too [11:13] Charles Krinke: The trick is always to find ways to communicate. If one doesnt work, perhaps another will. [11:13] BlueWall Slade: also, llSetPos [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we were shooting guns off in Sandbox plaza the other day [11:14] Charles Krinke: Another option is to expand the note on the Mantis with a simple example someone can duplicate. [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i noticed alot of the projectiles lingered [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: most did poof but some didnt [11:14] BlueWall Slade: I made a script that drivers a cube all over a sim, and rezez objcets that live for a few seconds [11:14] BlueWall Slade: the cube never moves according to the scene [11:14] BlueWall Slade: and many of the rezzed objects never die [11:14] Charles Krinke: Are we needing to set up some simple example scripts again to help shed light on issues? [11:15] BlueWall Slade: I think that is releated to what Kitto sees [11:15] BlueWall Slade: just some communication breakdown from teh sim to the client [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: possibly, its some kind of packet problem no doubt [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: packets not getting back to the viewer maybe [11:15] BlueWall Slade: umm, I'll post the scripts that do that [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or perhaps out of order [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: so they are ignored [11:15] Kally Rakan: does every see the same undead objects? [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: no Kally [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: they do not [11:15] Kitto Flora: Blue: Is the object really gone? Can you walk through it? [11:16] BlueWall Slade: I have started playing with WinGridProxy [11:16] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:16] Kally Rakan: that sounds like a comms problem then [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect something got lost while jhurliman was refactoring object update sending [11:16] BlueWall Slade: kitt - yes [11:16] Kally Rakan: similar to the attachment editing [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya probably [11:16] BlueWall Slade: ebadon and I saw different objects [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: if not lost its just not aligned properly [11:17] Kitto Flora: Blue - if you llDie the object, still see it - and can walk through it .. then IF someone else enters the Sim - do they the n SEE the object? [11:17] BlueWall Slade: he had 2 avatars seeing different objects and I saw different ones from those [11:17] BlueWall Slade: can't edit it [11:17]  BlueWall Slade: it is not there [11:17] Andress Renault: I have a topic when this one is finished. [11:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive also noticed stuff that would relate tot he same, editing attachments then removing and wearing again, sometimes the changes dont persist, shift-copy objects and then delete the old one will leave an invisible 'ghost' until the region is restarted [11:18] Kally Rakan: there seems to be several different display update problems here all seeming to stem from packet issues [11:18] BlueWall Slade: I wil mod the cube script to shout the location with llGetPos [11:18] Kitto Flora: Then yes - I agree its likely a lost packet, the client update is not sent [11:18] Penny Lane: How much of it is run through regression testing after changes to catch mishaps? [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [11:18]  BlueWall Slade: also [11:18]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i think most of this is probably related to the same problem [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i suspect also [11:18]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: packet is either not getting or ignoring packets [11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: because perhaps the order is wrong [11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: ho ho, regression testing, you're having a larf, surely? :) [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia [11:18] BlueWall Slade: also - if you restart a region, it beciomes invisible to neighbors [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: I have a regression test for collision geometry [11:19] Penny Lane: JCC: I know it's a laugh, but it's also serious. You can't expect a project this size to be hand tested. [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: takes 4 hours or so [11:19]  Kally Rakan: wonder if it would be possible to autobuild a region from an oar and do some scripted bot tests on scripted objects [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: kally: don't see why not. Just requires man-days of brainpower to do it all, and then maintain it :) [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: generally simpler to knock up some automated tests to catch 80% of that, I feel [11:20]  Kally Rakan: actually, would that new region module <-> script interface that just went in help there? [11:21]  BlueWall Slade: the other 20% are brought to the surface by nut-cases like us [11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe, if we knew what it actually did :) [11:21] Kally Rakan: I think melanie said it allowed lsl scripts to directly communicate with region modules [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: an example would be really nice [11:22] Andress Renault: My issue is, group chat is not working, is that something I should take up with SimHost or address as an OS issue? [11:22] Kally Rakan: yes, but beyond my knowledge alas. Melanie or diva are probably the only ones who know [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Andress i would start with simhost [11:23] Nebadon Izumi: go from there [11:23] Andress Renault: Thank you Nebadon [11:24] BlueWall Slade: opensim: Hook IScriptModuleComms.OnScriptCommand to see commands and use [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: so what are the worst outstanding issues right now? The physics update problem, the large inventory issue, maybe the landing problem... anything else that seems really major? Oh, and the unresolved linking issues but they've been around for ages :) [11:24] WhiteStar Magic: not being able to Land on a prim [11:25]  Kitto Flora: Whats the Landing Problem? [11:25]  ARADTech KoolKam: Im having Hypergrid issues with latast version as well [11:25]  WhiteStar Magic: Texture Corruptions [11:25]  Adelle Fitzgerald: avatar textures not baking properly, CSJ2K exceptions [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: the landing issues is the inability to land on a prim, in my head [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: huh, thought the texture issues were largely resolved [11:25]  BlueWall Slade: the invisible regions are pretty bad, sometimes avatars are locked out unti lthey relog [11:25]  Kally Rakan: is attachment editing still broken? [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: the CSJ2K messages are warnings [11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: I must admit, hand't heard of the invisible regions issue until today [11:26]  Kitto Flora: JCC - is there a desc in Mantis for the landing problem? [11:26] WhiteStar Magic: Vanishing HUDS [11:26] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure they are releated to baking issues [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: kitto: not afaik - but I'm not getting mantis updates right now (need to fix that) [11:26] ARADTech KoolKam: I think I have that invisible region issue too [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a mantis somewhere for it [11:26]  Adelle Fitzgerald: for the most part yes Justin, but seems the more avies there are in a sim, the more CSJ2K exceptions are thrown, resulting in not fully rezzed bakes or corruption [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: interesting. Worse than back on openJpeg? [11:26] Sydney Idealist: Hi :) [11:27]  ARADTech KoolKam: Hello :) [11:27] Andress Renault waves to Sydney [11:27] Aufwiff DePixies: hello all [11:27] BlueWall Slade: last week Teravus asked me to check it the issue with the region to see if it was 100% and it was [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: hello sydney, arad, aufwiff [11:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: its hard to compare, so much happened during the time it was changed to CSJ2K, from what I remember earlier, it was mostly grey avatars, now is baked avatars with some corruption [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: I take it jhurliman knows? [11:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: there is a mantis for it: #4331 [11:28] BlueWall Slade: I will try to organize what information I can gather an make or add to a mantis [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ah [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: that could be the viewer they are using too AdelleF [11:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: some of the viewers are using OpenJPG [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: like meerkat [11:28] Kally Rakan: and missing clothing [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: and maybe emerald [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: and not using llkdu [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: the texture corruption could be from these viewers [11:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: it happens in Hippo too [11:28] Kally Rakan: I had that earlier, jacket was worn but didn't appear until I tried editing appearance [11:28] WhiteStar Magic: it's either teh "Buck Shot Look" or the Multi-Coloured Pixelated look [11:28] Andress Renault: I had alot of problems with textures in Meercat Im using Hippo again. [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: when you rebake do you see texture errors at that moment [11:29] Adelle Fitzgerald: it could, thinking about it, be related to the prims issue, if some packets are not making it through [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: is see a bunch of this on the console [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: 14:28:37 - [J2KDecoderModule]: CSJ2K threw an exception decoding texture 59b1c952-b9dc-2f6d-4def-fbacb6b8ea8b: Requested bitra te is too small. 14:28:37 - [J2KDecoderModule]: Failed to decode layer data for texture 59b1c952-b9dc-2f6d-4def-fbacb6b8ea8b, guessing sane def aults [11:29] Kally Rakan: I see texture errors from the automatic rebake the sim does when it doesn't already have baked textures [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: but this is for any texture that loads [11:30] Kally Rakan: on login or teleport [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its not just baking or avatars [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, the holy mysteries of texture encoding [11:30] Kally Rakan: manual rebake usually works fine [11:30] BlueWall Slade: I see those - I think they 're harmless [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i think so too [11:30] Kally Rakan: automatic almost always fails [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think they are related to the texture corrupting in the viewer [11:30] Adelle Fitzgerald: I did have the thought that maybe it is some incompatibility between encoding with openJPEG and decoding with CSJ2K [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: not everyone sees the same corruption [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thats the oddest part [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: only a few people will see it [11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: somtimes only 1 person sees it [11:31]  WhiteStar Magic: and depends on viewer with different drivers too as to how they will present [11:31] Kally Rakan: more packet problems? :P [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: probably kally [11:31] BlueWall Slade: that points back the the packets [11:31] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes, i have seen myself with blury bakes, when others have seen me fine [11:32] Kally Rakan: hmm, when bakes fail, they tend to do it repeatedly don't they [11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: not that I have noticed [11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: it seems to me to be a lottery which bake will fail next [11:32] Adelle Fitzgerald: one rebake could be the head, the next the legs [11:33] WhiteStar Magic: I think its just that llKdu will represent it one way and OpenJpg another ... but it's the source packet that is being interpreted buy the Viewers driver is why it shows differently. [11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: baking seems to me an area which should be really ripe for isolated testing - but I think a lot of that stuff is cutting edge in open-source terms [11:33] Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:34] WhiteStar Magic: heya Hiro [11:34] Sydney Idealist: Hi again :) [11:34]  Hiro Protagonist: Hiyas :) [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: also, it seems it may affect 64bit systems more than 32bit, but havent confirmed that [11:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Hiro [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: Hello everyone [11:34] Andress Renault: Hi Hiro! [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: hey Hiro [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Hiro [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: hey hiro [11:36] Strawberry Fride: hiya hiro :) [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i have a feeling those warnings are more prevalent on x64 [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: the CSJ2K warnings [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: so far though ive not notived any wierdness other than the warnings [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont see any texture corrupting here today yet [11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: does anyone? [11:38]  Adelle Fitzgerald: have a close look, i see some blury textures [11:38]  Andress Renault: No folks looks good [11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, all looks good to me [11:38]  BlueWall Slade: before the change, the textures would hardly rez on 64 [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: Friendly Harbors shirt is wierd [11:38]  Orion Hax: i have it happen but no one here [11:38]  Kally Rakan: yes, I saw corruption on my textures right after arriving [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: thats the only one i notice [11:38]  BlueWall Slade: but, they are crisp now [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: texture corruption, especially corruption of the stock textures (e.g., plywood) started to be very severe about three days ago [11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: Friendy's top, WhiteStar's pants [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: then suddenly stopped [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: I see some bluffy textures [11:38] Kally Rakan: I see it after every tp and every login [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: *blurry [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: are you sure that's not how friendly's top is supposed to loko :) [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: Whitestars pants seem ok to me [11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: look. It is pretty garish.... [11:39]  WhiteStar Magic gave you Snapshot : OSGrid Meeting Center, Wright Plaza (140, 146, 32). [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: heh weird [11:39]  Friendly Harbour: did a rebake now ... did it help? [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya see thats not how i see friendly harbors shirt whitestar [11:39]  Andress Renault: My skirt is a very trim black and red, if you see any blurring then its a problem. [11:39]  Kally Rakan: it's white to me [11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: hmm I think the rebakes are making Sydney crash [11:40]  WhiteStar Magic: your worse now Friendly [11:40]  Friendly Harbour: wow [11:40]  Charles Krinke: Well, shoot. We have a problem with many variables. So, when that happens, usually the best thing is to simplify the problem until it can be solved. [11:40] Friendly Harbour: that pic was before of after the rebake? [11:40] WhiteStar Magic: your pants just went funkylicious [11:40] Friendly Harbour: whitestar [11:40] Adelle Fitzgerald: thats how Friendly's top looks to me [11:40]  WhiteStar Magic accepted your inventory offer. [11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Andress, I saw some blurring when I first got here. That usually indicates a texture that hasn't fully loaded at my end IIRC. [11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: andress: your skirt is appearing all white to me [11:41]  Friendly Harbour: <- afraid to touch the rebake button again [11:41] Andress Renault: Oh dear [11:41] WhiteStar Magic: That is what I see Adelle [11:41] BlueWall Slade: lol, my camera was gonig crazy [11:41] WhiteStar Magic: and your picture will not rez clearly for me [11:41]  Warin Cascabel is Online [11:42] WhiteStar Magic: It finally caught up and I can see it now [11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: teh pic on the right is from WS [11:42]  Friendly Harbour: hmm ... 2 very different result, are both pics taken with the same viewer? [11:42] Andress Renault: Yes pixulated [11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: im on hippo [11:42] WhiteStar Magic: MK RC2 with J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.3.0, Runtime: 1.3.0 [11:42] Andress Renault: Im on HIppo as well [11:43] Friendly Harbour: i'm on hippo myself, but i took the llkdu file from the normal viewer to help out when i use emerald [11:43] Dahlia Trimble: try my new web viewer: http://dahliaisland.wwweb3d.net:8099/dahliaUnityPlayer/dahliaWebPlayer01.html [11:43] Andress Renault: Is this a viewer issue most likely? [11:43] Adelle Fitzgerald: i did today Dahlia, nice work :) [11:44]  Dahlia Trimble: :) [11:44] WhiteStar Magic: The Emerald folks have been gracious enough to put us a separate download with optimized drivers you can plug in [11:44]  Andress Renault: Very nice made with Unity, you go :) [11:44]  Andress Renault: Oh let me check that.. [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: does that work in firefox? [11:44]  Dahlia Trimble: it should [11:44]  Adelle Fitzgerald: it worked in FF for me Justin [11:45]  Friendly Harbour: i'm testing it in FF now [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: I havent tried it in FF but it worked in IE and Chrome [11:45]  Dahlia Trimble: no linux tho :( [11:45] Andress Renault looks.. [11:45] ARADTech KoolKam: checks it out too [11:45] Friendly Harbour: ah .. haven't tried on linux ...i'm on winxp/FF [11:45] Adelle Fitzgerald: i will add the findings here today to the mantis open for the avatar bakes [11:46] Andress Renault: I use FF will test it later today [11:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think there is a possibility the packets are being lost/corrupted/whatever between to simulator to the viewer if people see different results [11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: there have been recent changes to packet handling [11:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: and again pointing to the same/similar problem as ghost prims etc [11:47] ARADTech KoolKam: wow thatis awesome :) [11:47]  Warin Cascabel: I agree, Adelle. Every time I rebake and see myself as speckly, there's a huge upsurge in dropped packets on my meter. [11:47]  Adelle Fitzgerald: how recent Justin? [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I think everyone is hitting your webserve at once [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: within the last 2 weeks, definitely 3 [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh yes, those I know about, this issue is since then, i think [11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have FF on Linux if you want me to try something [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: my startup only got half way - wonder if I should start pounding reload [11:48]  Adelle Fitzgerald: though during that marathon it was hard to tell when it was introduced [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: yeah [11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: JCC, if you get a delay, sometimes it's a UAE asking for an OK that is hidden behind another window [11:49] Andress Renault: BTW compliments on however loaded the cool machinima videos. [11:49] Andress Renault: whoever [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: should take less than a minute to load [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, worked on the retry. Is that a live region somewhere? [11:49] ARADTech KoolKam: yeah loaded fast for me worked fine :) [11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: not yet, just some dyanmic content on my web server [11:50]  Adelle Fitzgerald: on a more positive note, the sim stability and uptime has been fairly persistant since all the big changes a few weeks ago :) [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: all http protocol [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Dahlia: not the LL protocol? [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: libomv problems with unity :/ [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: yes, that's a plus - hoping it will stay that way for a bit [11:51] Warin Cascabel: Yes - I've had a region up nearly seven days now, still under a GB of RAM in use - right next to Lbsa Plaza, too. [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: I think it will take a new protocol to work [11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: From what I read, tcp is too prone to pauses to be usable in a viewer protocol with any real-time pretensions [11:52] Andress Renault: If I have a suggestion for the website is that best to put in the forum? [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: collision rather, perhaps [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: andress: the osgrid website? [11:52] Andress Renault: Yes \ [11:52] Kally Rakan: isn't nagles algorithm the cause of those delays? [11:52] Dahlia Trimble: dunno, it's a very early prototype :) [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: andress: in that case, yes [11:52]  Andress Renault: Thank you [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: kally: maybe. I hear the worst thing is the delay when a packet is lost, since no comms can go on until it has been successfully retransmitted [11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: leading to big pauses over any connectio nless than 100% reliable [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: which I guess Nagle's algorithm would considerably excarbate [11:54]  Kally Rakan: true. You could increase the buffer sizes but if you overrun those you'll still have problems, just less often [11:54]  Kally Rakan: socket buffers that is [11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: isnt that what happens when someone tosses ya in the fire? you get excarbated? *wink* [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: ha ha, stonking [11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: sorry justinCC it was low-hanging fruit lol [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: 27 agents and we're still here again almost at the top of the hour :) [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: nice [11:55]  Adelle Fitzgerald: :) [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya great meeting [11:56] Andress Renault: Thank you for inviting me Adelle [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: even though there are still some lingering issues [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: things have greatly improved [11:56] BlueWall Slade: ++ [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: the next 30 days should yeild even more improvements [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: yes - hopefully we're back on the upswing.... [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: would be nice to try and hit a release at the top of the curve :) [11:56]  Adelle Fitzgerald: we had a halloween party on the 31st, that went great, 12hours long, must have had at least 60 people come and go for that duration and it crashed once [11:56]  Kally Rakan: I suspect a lot of them problems can be tracked down withsomeone sitting with that viewing proxy then beating up the code a bit :) [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: adelle: cool [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya the Halloween party was awesome [11:57] Andress Renault: Adelle is there going to be another 'general meeting this week? [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: kally: yep :) [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant wait to have some more parties soon [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: we had some fun on Sandbox Plaza the other day [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: experimenting with some weaponry [11:57]  Andress Renault: That was fun [11:57]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Andress, yes for OSgrid, tomorrow [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: guns, land mines [11:57]  Andress Renault: Im sorry wrong issue. [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: and i even drove a tank around [11:57]  Andress Renault: Thanks Adelle [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: using Kittos car [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: was pretty cool [11:58]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe llPush works well :D [11:58]  Charles Krinke: Perhaps a "Social Hour" once a week as a sort of ongoing party? [11:58]  Andress Renault: Ill be having a grand opening party when my sim is ready, bit a little bit yet. [11:58]  Morgaine Dinova: TCP isn't prone to pauses, it 's not like it has a will to be lazy. It stops to wait for missing packets, what else do you expect from a reliable protocol? There's a lot of FUD in this area. [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: morgaine: yeah, the pauses are to retrieve missing packets, as far as I read [11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Pause, wait for missing packets, when you need a constant stream, unlike the WWW or something, they come out the same. [11:59] Kally Rakan: it resends packets that it hasn't received an ack that should have arrived [12:00] Kally Rakan: now... why do I have this evil thought of RTP and similar protocols... [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:00] Kitto Flora: If you have a bad net connection, sim <> client, then either you have to accept lag (tcp) or accept missing updates (udp). Quicktime offers you the options. [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: kally: :) I do think the protocol area is ripe for research with the demands of potentially generic virtual environment protocols [12:01]  Morgaine Dinova: It's a case of matching your data needs to the protocol you select.  LL screwed up badly in the choice, as they all freely admit now.  And we're living with the consequences. [12:02]  Kitto Flora: Morgaine: I agree with that [12:02]  Kally Rakan: yes, RTP or a similar real time connection would probably have been a better choice [12:02]  Kally Rakan: says I with only sketchy, outdated knowledge ;) [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, nice meeting folks. I need to go. See you later [12:03] Andress Renault: Thank you.. [12:03] Morgaine Dinova: VWRAP's moving everything to TCP, but I don't think you want to wait 3 years for that to happen ... [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: are you still posting transcripts? [12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin :) [12:03]  Kally Rakan: btw, there's a meeting tomorrow you said? [12:03]  Kally Rakan: cya justin [12:03]  Andress Renault: Kally yes for the general users. [12:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald: yes Kally, for OSgrid [12:03]  Morgaine Dinova: See ya JCC [12:03]  Charles Krinke: I ned to go too, ater [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: morgaine: so what are they going to do about the delays for reliability? [12:03]  Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Charles :) [12:03] Kally Rakan: I don't see it in the event calendar from the osgrid website feed [12:04] Morgaine Dinova: JCC: hard to say. The current plan is unworkable :-( [12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: Kally, its at 00:00 UTC Thursday morning/ Wednesday midnight [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: morgaine: Ah [12:04]  BlueWall Slade: g'bye everybody - good meeting! Thanks! [12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay, see you folks [12:04]  Kally Rakan: ah, the one I missed last week :) [12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: bah, coyled slacking again ;) [12:04]  Andress Renault: It was, interesting and productive in some areas. [12:04]  Morgaine Dinova: JCC: early days.  Which is why I think you guys need to be thinking about it independently. [12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: eeks rl... bye all :) [12:05] Kally Rakan: it would be nice to have those on the calendar feed [12:05] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Da..... [12:05] Kally Rakan: looking at google calander and see this meeting and test hours [12:05] Kally Rakan: cya dahlia [12:05] Morgaine Dinova: Cya Dahia :-) [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: I am hoping soon we can improve the website usability [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: for things like scheduling and communicating better [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Elgg is good [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: but i think we can maybe to better [12:06]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Nebadon, do you think we could turn the events board back on at Lbsa? [12:06]  Andress Renault: I put a suggestion on the forum about a possible idea for the Os website and I love the marketplace [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: sure AdelleF [12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: do you have it? [12:07]  Andress Renault: That would be very helpful having the event board at the plaza. [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont, i deleted it hehe [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald: Adam has it [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ill give him a shout [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald accepted your inventory offer. [12:07]  Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh, thanks Neb [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: no problem [12:07] WhiteStar Magic: OSG really needs a working map [12:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: Its being worked on WS [12:08]  Kally Rakan: Would it be possible to do something like have a website module that sends a group notice to subscribed groups for events? [12:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: im not sure Kally, that would take some doing to integrate groups with events [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: maybe but im not sure we are able to push events from the website into just any region [12:09] WhiteStar Magic: getting serious chat lag now [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: that requires a bit of trust from the grid ops [12:09] Nebadon Izumi: not sure its something we will have anytime soon [12:10] Kally Rakan: well, it's something to think about for the future [12:10] Kally Rakan: most integration of the website into the VW [12:10]  Kally Rakan: or outside things in general [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya it comes back to the same notion of why the general store doesnt work right [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: why you have to clear cache and relog [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we can not send the packets from website to viewer [12:10] Nebadon Izumi: to tell it to update inventory [12:11] Kally Rakan: I noticed it seems to work if you move anything already in the recieved items folder out of it [12:11]  Kally Rakan: next relog they're usually there [12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya anything that triggers inventory update [12:11] Kally Rakan: maybe the viewer isn't receiving an update unless you poke [12:11] Kally Rakan: it [12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: will force it to show up next login [12:12] Andress Renault: Its been a pleasure all back to swatting pixels..