Chat log from the meeting on 2020-09-22

[11:00] Ada Radius: Hey Andrew

[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:01] Kayaker Magic: Lively crowd so far....

[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah

[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Leighton

[11:02] Ada Radius: I just dropped my mouse and now it's cranky

[11:02] Ada Radius: Hi Leighton

[11:02] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: Hi Gavin and Ada

[11:02] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: howdy to everyone :)

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Leighton

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to start things off this week with a question for Ubit.

[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Go!

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, You made a recent change to only store map image asset on local cache. The commit message said it "will break viewers v1 map, osGetRegionMapTexture, etc".

[11:08] Bill Blight: he then turned it off by default ,

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a scripted gadget that uses that osGet function to retreive region map tiles. Is there some work around for this change to allow maptiles to be retrieved?

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill: ok, good to know.

[11:09] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commitdiff&p=opensim&h=0877c00658df13ccf52a0aa9676e1ca4733db4f0

[11:09] Bill Blight: commit where he turned it off by default

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure if the FS viewer is still using a v1 map or not. Breaking script functions doesn't sound good if the feature is turned on.

[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Ubit? Are you really there?

[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't appear to be with us right now.

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Has anyone used the new language extentions? switch, case, try catch?

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I just noticed them, when were they added?

[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: In terms of activity this week, Ubit has made some changes to YEngine and also made some changes to the wiki pages.

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I assume they are only in YEngine.

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Have those features been made available for YEngine?

[11:18] Kayaker Magic:

[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, have you tried them? AFAIK, they are extensions for XMREngine but are not (yet?) part of YEngine.

[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Nope, I have not tried them yet. Just noticed the wiki changes about them last week.

[11:20] steevithak x: Here's the updated wiki page showing what ubit has added http://opensimulator.org/wiki/YEngine

[11:20] Bill Blight: switch

break

continue

try catch and finally

constant

short circuit AND and OR

[11:21] Bill Blight: are in Y

[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't notice the commit message stating they were added to YEngine.

[11:21] Bill Blight: they just have never been documented

[11:21] Kayaker Magic: I noticed the example usage of try/catch was to recover from a failed OSSL function, something I have tried to find a way to do in the past.

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Popstar!

[11:25] Arielle Popstar: Hi Gavin

[11:25] Arielle Popstar: hey all

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Welcom Arielle!

[11:25] Arielle Popstar: anything new and exciting?

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: It has been a quiet meeting so far.

[11:25] Arielle Popstar: oh nothing broken this week?

[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle

[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wb Ada

[11:27] Ada Radius: ty!

[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew

[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ada

[11:27] Ada Radius: Hi Arielle

[11:28] Kayaker Magic: WB Ada

[11:29] Arielle Popstar: so whats going on?

[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not much my end

[11:30] Kayaker Magic: We were talking about the language extensions to YEngine

[11:30] Arielle Popstar: read you got the rlv in?

[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the rlv in?

[11:30] Arielle Popstar: in your viewer?

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: (hi ppl )

[11:30] Arielle Popstar: thought i read that in the logs from a few weeks back

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it's been in the windows version all the time, but currently not in the Mac version

[11:31] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit

[11:31] Kayaker Magic: WB Ubit!

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually it is a separate download so people can have a RLV free viewer

[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: evening Ubit

[11:32] Arielle Popstar: ohh kk

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, ubit

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: yes kayaker i did add a option to not upload map image asset

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Checking the history I see the extra scripting features were added in February.

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and doing that does break several things

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: gezz u typed a lot in 30min

[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:34] Arielle Popstar: was he doing the placeholder thing?

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: and yes, tried to ad some documentation about Yengine

[11:37] Kayaker Magic likes the new documentation in the Wiki

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: even the orange and red parts?

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. People might even read those parts. :)

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:39] Arielle Popstar: is there a spellchecker on the wiki edit ?

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: i have a person, that will do it in time :p

[11:41] Arielle Popstar: ohhh nice! :)\

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and what news do have about opensim ?

[11:42] Arielle Popstar thinks hard

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I started with that but you weren't here.

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: oops :)

[11:44] Arielle Popstar: whats the news on the opensim developer end?

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i made chahttp://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentationnges also on

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: err

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i made changes at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentation also

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: added orange and so

[11:45] Arielle Popstar: what does Documentationnges mean?

[11:45] Kayaker Magic: It means fumbly fingers

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: the paste ended up on the wrong place :)

[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: copy pasta error

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSL_Implemented

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: old things, but there was no doc

[11:47] Arielle Popstar: so thats exclusively for the new scripting thingamabob?

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: most is

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: also thingamamarley

[11:49] Arielle Popstar: spreading permissions for them over 3 different ini files?

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: you count well congrats

[11:49] Arielle Popstar: isnt that a bit confusing?

[11:50] Arielle Popstar: surprised you didnt count :)

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: :)

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: as text tells, same login as opensimdefaults.ini and opensim.ini

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: err some logic

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: even same

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: yeack

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: -> as text tells, same logic as opensimdefaults.ini and opensim.ini

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: nad yes kayaker try catch should allow a cleaner way to detect ossl permission error

[11:53] Bill Blight: Have a good day I need to bail ..

[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bill.

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: thhink i had said that some time ago on a mantis

[11:55] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but back then I assumed language changes were not an option.

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: this things where on xmr, just waiting some cleanup

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: scriptexception was not there.. i did add is now

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: etc

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: there are a few more things actually in code

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: but i don't like most of them

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i may just delete them

[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: What things?

[11:57] Arielle Popstar: so some are now on by default? "so now many are always allowed wasting no time on useless checks."

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: and try a diferent approch to add some features

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: not by default

[11:58] Arielle Popstar: says always allowed

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: scripts need to add the line yoptions;

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: you are talking about yengine or ossl ??

[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: That will flag a script as needing YEngine.

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yes and enables those things

[11:59] Arielle Popstar: I'm looking at that page as a server admin trying to get an idea of what i need to do to have my residents scripts work

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well what page?

[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, what is wrong with the scripts of your residents?

[12:00] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: I need to head off to prep for another meeting

[12:00] Arielle Popstar: i am talking in a what if instance Andrew

[12:01] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: bye for now and see you all again next week

[12:01] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: :)

[12:01] Arielle Popstar: is the documentation sufficient for me to sort out the issues my residents might have

[12:01] Ada Radius: bye Leighton tc

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: It has always been true that a server admin has to edit the ini files to enable/disable OSSL functions for their users.

[12:02] Kayaker Magic: What must a server admin do to enable new YEngine language features?

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: about ossl, yes i did change the old decision of having permissions on all funtions

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: no sense on things like osMin etc

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: OSSL is our set of extensions.. that also means short and fast things

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: need to enable Yengine Kayaker

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: that info is there

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: then features is per script

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: line with yoptions;   at start as text tells

[12:06] Arielle Popstar: so the new ossl features are not backported to X-engine?

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: ossl is same for Y and X

[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 is changing sort order to asc

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: ( and nothing that new on that.. think those changes where already on 0.9.1.1

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: just nothing on wiki

[12:07] Arielle Popstar: nods

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and one thing is ossl, other is yengine features

[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It will get interesting when people start using scripts with the YEngine extensions then start travelling the hypergrid.

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: that is why it is a optional feature and per script

[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: traveling the hypergrid is already interesting...

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: those who do not update, will not have it

[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: True, Gavin.

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: like will not have eep, even bom or animesh

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: nothing new on that

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or the stuff you need in suitcase

[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: No. Nothing new on whether a grid that has updated to 0.9 is using X or Y engine.

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well some things there will need 0.9.2

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: as i said exception type scriptexception i just did add it

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: sure could be done with just exception..

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: but it is safer to only catch scriptexception

[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: That will be useful when a region is using Y. If it is still on X it will cause a different kind of exception to be thrown. :)

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yeah :)

[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now a quarter past the hour. Any last items for today?

[12:15] Arielle Popstar: all good here

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: did fix a little bug or 2 also

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: during last week

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and made a few changes to "internals"

[12:16] Arielle Popstar: uhm

[12:16] Arielle Popstar: what sort of internal changes?

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: internal :p

[12:16] Arielle Popstar: ^^

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: ie how things are done,

[12:17] Arielle Popstar: in what regard?

[12:17] Arielle Popstar: uploads?

[12:17] Arielle Popstar: permissions?

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: no

[12:17] Arielle Popstar: loading?

[12:18] Arielle Popstar: throttles?

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: how things are done.. reduce amount of temporary objects allocations.. etc

[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Ubit is referring to code cleanup. No change in function. Just nicer looking code.

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: saving peek memory use, and cpu

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: actually one commit is "make it ugly" LOL

[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: that means i did not care about some silly things ppl say abotu code style etc

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: like fields should be internal to classes, only properties exposed

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: thats BS

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: i do it when matters.. do not when it is folish

[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: and also made some code a bit harder to read, bc that gens a bit faster code

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: that was the meaning of "ugly" on that commit

[12:22] Arielle Popstar: .0000001 ms?

[12:22] Arielle Popstar: faster?

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: or less :p

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: but time.. adds up :p

[12:23] Ubit Umarov: each microOp not needed is waste

[12:24] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, an infinite number of infinitely small wasted instructions adds up to modern bloatware.

[12:24] Arielle Popstar: if S/L closes tommorrow, what would you consider for new Opensim features?

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: bahh don't tell me about modern soft

[12:24] Arielle Popstar: lol@ Kay

[12:24] Ubit Umarov: its so bad

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: specially c# and .net

[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Swift for Windows was announced today, so now you can rewrite in server Swift

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: somehow it got into many programmers than memory is cheap, and cpus are fast

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: so they use totally unnecessary memory

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: some type on blogs like, a 10% performance improvement does not matter

[12:26] Ubit Umarov: bahh

[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I've thought about how people should be forced to learn to program on machines with (very) limited resources before being let loose on big machines.

[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... when a 1 MB rack of core cost $1.5M

[12:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah

[12:27] Ubit Umarov: c# strings totally irritate me lol

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: a c# char is utf16

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: that means at leat 2 bytes

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: when all or chat here used one byte letters

[12:28] Ubit Umarov: all our..

[12:29] Ubit Umarov: and utf16 has problems

[12:29] Arielle Popstar: i ran my first diva distro in 2009 on a P3 with 512MB ram

[12:29] Ubit Umarov: c# string lenght does not count real characters

[12:29] Ubit Umarov: because some need 2 of such char

[12:30] Arielle Popstar: and 1MB down and 600 KB up

[12:30] Ubit Umarov: utf16 was a very poor choice

[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I needed to add UTF-8 support to a program and had to be switching between that and unicode for some char/string related operations. :P

[12:30] Ubit Umarov: on .core they are thinking adding a trye utf8 string type

[12:30] Arielle Popstar: so my i7-7700 with 16GB of ram and 1GB pipe should be capable of that and a few region more

[12:30] Ubit Umarov: i actually already did add it.. osString

[12:31] Ubit Umarov: now used to parse notecards and a few other things

[12:31] Ubit Umarov: wel it is not only c# ms made that on win also

[12:31] Arielle Popstar: should code be more efficient so i can run 2 servers on my P#?

[12:31] Ubit Umarov: win uses uft16 also i think

[12:31] Arielle Popstar: P3

[12:32] Arielle Popstar: crickets :)

[12:32] Arielle Popstar: ok i am off

[12:32] Ubit Umarov: and stupid garbage collector.. same idea

[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Arielle.

[12:32] Arielle Popstar: thx for the meeting

[12:32] Ubit Umarov: memory is cheap.. no need to free things

[12:32] Kayaker Magic: Bye!

[12:32] Arielle Popstar: waves

[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at half past the hour now. Good time to wrap up the meeting.

[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Arielle

[12:32] Ubit Umarov: cya

[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.