Chat log from the meeting on 2008-08-05

[11:10] You: Well, that was fun. [11:10] AB_Bar Stool: started [11:10] 1942: 1942 started. [11:10] UUID Speaker: reset [11:10] Dahlia Trimble: whahappen? [11:10] You: I restarted the region as it was throwing exceptions everywhere. [11:11] Park Bench: started [11:12] Hiro Protagonist: Hello everybodeh [11:12] Johanna Hyacinth: Hello [11:12] Homer Horwitz: Hi again [11:12] Warin Cascabel: Hello again... [11:13] You: I think we will probably be a bit informal today. [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:13] Torrance Miles: hello [11:13] You: Morning, Justin. [11:13] Digi Fly: hello [11:13] Warin Cascabel: Hi [11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: the region is spewing exceptions to the console like mad [11:13] Homer Horwitz: Hi [11:13]  Kurt Stringer: Re-Hi [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: uh oh [11:13]  Hiro Protagonist: Hey Justin, gratsies man [11:14] You: ?? [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yo Hiro, Homer, Kurt, Nebadon, Warin, Digi, Charles, Torrance [11:14] Dahlia Trimble: new gig for Justincc [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yo dahlia, warin, joanna [11:14] Dahlia Trimble: hi jcc :) [11:14]  Homer Horwitz waves. [11:14]  Johanna Hyacinth: Hi, Justin :) [11:14] You: Do you want to tell us anything about your new gig, Justin? Or should we segue into OpenSim issues? [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, new job, new laptop (new appearance finally) [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: eventually [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going to be working as Lead Developer for the Black Dress Technology subsidiary of the Fashion Resarch Insittute [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: for Shenlei, in other words [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: using OpenSim as part of an open source platform for their apparel design enterprise solution [11:15] You: Does that mean dress, purses, undergarments, shoes, or what, may I ask? [11:15] Justin Clark-Casey hopes the mention of enterprise doesn't sned everyone to sleep [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: becoming a fashion designer? [11:16] Homer Horwitz grins [11:16] Johanna Hyacinth: Neat! [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: pretty much all of those, I think [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: Neb reports the region is unreachable [11:16] Hiro Protagonist: he cant get logged in [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I never imagined I would end up working in fashion [11:16] You: Let me segue into something that has been mentioned to me recently that might affect FRI a little bit. [11:16] Dahlia Trimble: I didnt know Shenlei was that serious [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, pretty serious :) [11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: nice to see :) [11:17] You: The subject is SQLite to MySQL migration of sim datastores which I suspect might affect some fashion designers who work on their laptops. [11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: looks like a user server issue on the console [11:17] sacha Magne: Charles, mysql works fine on laptop [11:17] You: And away we go with with exceptions again. [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I see it's spewing like crazy [11:18] Hiro Protagonist: my face just turned lime green rofl [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: migration should now be possible using load-oar/save-oar [11:18] Homer Horwitz: Mysql works nice nearly everywhere, but SQLite is far smaller nevertheless [11:18] Dahlia Trimble: I saw a bunch that mentioned libsecondlife [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: for the local region datastore, at least [11:18] You: I think the issue is that some sims have started with SQLite and it has been suggested that we need a good way to get existing sim prims. primshapes, land and the rest to MySQL [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: use save-oar/load-oar [11:19] Homer Horwitz: Does that include terrain-settings? [11:19] Homer Horwitz: (textures, land-values, and so on) [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: I did it with load/save xml2 but it didnt take scripts [11:19] You: I am told that save-oar/load-oar have problems relating to setting the ownership of everything to the master avatar. [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: homer: it includes terrain, but not currently estate settings [11:19] Dahlia Trimble: or terrain [11:19] Homer Horwitz: No parcels either? [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yep, load-oar/save-oar takes all the assets required as well as the raw shape data [11:20] You: I only bring it up as I think it partly, but not completely works based on what others are telling me. [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: cool I'll have to try it [11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yes, it is still experimental so needs bug reports [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: anything would be helpful - I'm most driven when I know accurately what people need [11:21] You: Thats good, and my next subject. I want to exhort all us users and testers to add Mantis relating to SQLite->MySql migration, save-oar/load-oar, save-xml2/load-xml2 and backup restore to help development. [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: hmmm, what I'm seeing justin is that some sculpts seem to work and others not [11:21] Hiro Protagonist: I thought you were aware of that though [11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: don't assume I'm aware of anything :) [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: any data is good [11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: oh it was more gossip than assumption *winks* [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: of course, mantises are the most convenient format [11:22]  You: Lets help Justin and the other developers out by adding notes to existing Mantis, duplicating tests between Windows & Linux and between dotnet and xengine. [11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: but I'll file a mantis [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: also making the actual archive available would be helpful if possible [11:22]  You: Confirming between Windows and Linux would help also. [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: then I can just try a direct load on my own systems [11:22]  Hiro Protagonist: I can do that [11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yep, all good stuff [11:23]  You: Justin. Can I suggest the OpenSim.db on Wright Plaza?? [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: excellent suggestion [11:23] You: It is the oldest OpenSim datastore in existence. [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that would be a real challenge [11:23] You: And you can scp it at your leisure. [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: I may well try that myself at a quiet period [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yep, excellent suggestion - I shall put that on my agend [11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: agenda [11:23] You: Also, there are a whole bunch of backups in ~/ named OpenSim.db.wright.mmdd [11:24] Kurt Stringer fondly remembers quiet periods... [11:24] You: Feel free to work with any of them. [11:24] Dahlia Trimble: I wouldnt mind having a clone of WP for meshing testing sometime [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I expect an archive of wp will be pretty damn big [11:24] You: Feel, free, Dahlia. You also have console privilege and that includes copies of any of the files on the server. [11:24] Dahlia Trimble: ty :) [11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: do we know what license the content of wp is under? Is it republishable? [11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: I wouldnt redistribute it [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: finally [11:25]  You: Its 9 MBytes in size. i would suggest that we dont re-distribute but use it as an engineering test for software development. [11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: welcome nebadon [11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay [11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you know what aspect of it is 9mb? is that the save-xml file? [11:26]  You: The SQLite datastore, OpenSim.db is 9MByte [11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: okay [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: the archive will be much much bigger of course, since it will contain all the asset data [11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's funny, the user server looks okay and yet the region keeps timing out on trying to contact it [11:27]  You: There are some OpenSim.db in ~/ that are 54MByte, and some that are 9MByte. A more recent one reflects reality a bit better, methinks. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: sigh [11:28] You: All the assets are grid assets, so these OpenSim.db files are the SQLite data of the region which includes the prims, primshapes, land, estate stuff. [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it looks like the viewer effect problem from last week has been solved [11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: at least [11:29] You: What is the biggest issue from the developers viewpoint that the testers can help with? [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: jeez i keep getting tossed around [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: whats up with that [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:29] You: You must be full of "Hot Air". [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: wow chat lag too [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: some of that i said a few miunutes ago [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: atleast on my screen [11:29] Dahlia Trimble: anyone tried llSetForce or llAxes2Rot yet? [11:30] Warin Cascabel: Not recently, but I will [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: dang inventory is hosed also for me [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: I was not aware that llSetForce had been implemented [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: I implemented it last week sometime [11:30] You: Is eveyone comfortable with both dotnet and xengine? Are their differences creating any angst? [11:30] Dahlia Trimble: or 2 weeks ago [11:31] Warin Cascabel: Is there a Web page showing all the recent changes, for those of us who miss it in the IRC channel? [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i havent tested xengine in a month [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: I've only been waiting for that for months now lol [11:31] Nebadon Izumi: SVN log [11:32] You: The recent changes are on the wiki, that is, the last 10 SVN log changes. Beyond that, tortoiseSVN can describe all 5752 revisions. [11:32] Hiro Protagonist: I have no problems reading commit logs [11:32] You: Isnt there a cia site tha will show differences? [11:32] Hiro Protagonist: except I have lots better things to be doing most of the time [11:32] Kurt Stringer: Charles, stay tuned on the SE merge to Shared... [11:32] You: Are there things that used to work but are now broken?? [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: Nice prim hair Joanna :D [11:33] You: No problem, Kurt. [11:33] You: Question: "What is broken now that used to work??" [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: seems like inventory is a big issue for people still [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: lots of people saying no inventory [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: from what i hear [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: after a sim sits for some time [11:34] Nebadon Izumi: your no longer able to access your inventory [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: and the sim has to be restarted to be able to access your inventory again [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: how recent is this? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: today [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: yeah the 'secure inventory' patches that went in reduced inventory reliability by a considerable factor [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right now as we speak [11:35] You: Good point. "How can we create some more non-ambiguous tests for inventory functionality and reliability?" [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: has it been happening before today? [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: yes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: inventory performance has been terrible [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: since all these security cahnges [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: it isn't really the sim I think either [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I did make some small changes which shouldn't have affected things but you never know [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: everythings been horrible [11:35] Hiro Protagonist: for instance, my inventory is presently working [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: to be frank [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: might be worth changing the default to non-seucre pending more testing [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: and ask the secure to be tested until we know it's stable [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: have you tried changing to non-secure? [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: the problem is, the region configuration has to match the UGAIM configuration [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:36]  You: +1, Justin. That has been bothering me for two weeks, but I didnt want to make a big deal of the 3di changes. [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: the grid is the end that needs to change [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: things can't be changed from the region server end [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea but alot of people have it forced in their opensim.ini [11:37] Nebadon Izumi: because they were told thats why it wasnt working [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: is there not a corresponding region configuration point? [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: exactly [11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, that will just stop them working altogether.... [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: we dont manage the regions [11:37] Hiro Protagonist: if we change the grid, a lot of regions break [11:38] Chris D: There was apatch that allowed grid secure to ignore the region secure [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: have we heard of problems from other grids? [11:38] You: Our #opensim is in a bit of chaos with more opinions then knowledge right now. This is not a criticism of anyone here, just expressing some angst. [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: heh no [11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: the other grids rarely contribute anything [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: what about a patch to have the region ignore grid secure though? [11:38] Chris D: Therfore you could turn off secure inventory on the grid [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: going to have to look at the console spew as well [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: Chris D: yes, it is turnable offable though the switch is undocumented [11:39] You: Justin. Can we modify one or more sims to serve as a testbed for some of your FRI ideas? I would eagerly volunteer one or more of mine. [11:39] Chris D: If the grid is secure then the regions have to be secure [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: that's the whole problem ChrisD [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: security isnt really working right [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: the grid is configured for securioty [11:40] You: I would also say that I would vote to change grid configuration to allow Justin and others to focus on problems more easily. [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: Thanks, I will definitely bear that in mind. At the moment I still need to finish up at IBM before I can get my feet properly under the table [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: if we reverse that, all those who have it forced will break what little works for them [11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: Should we change the default, or document the existing switch properly? [11:40] You: Hiro. I don think the secure inventory stuff works right. [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I *know* it doesnt [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yea either way 80% of the people are screwed [11:40] Chris D: Yes, you just turn off grid ecure inventory and it will ignore the rgein settings. Both secure and non secure regions will still work [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: so whats it matter [11:40] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I feel like I'm shouting into a gale here [11:41] You: Then, lets just turn it off. how do we do that? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i can do it [11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: ChrisD: that's good. that was my concern [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: after the meeting [11:41] Dahlia Trimble: so do all the regions need to be reconfigured? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: no [11:41]  Chris D: Sorry, I should have been clearer in the first place :) [11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: not according to Chris [11:41]  You: If there is a substantila change, that tells us something. If there is no substantial change, that also tells us something. [11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: restarted? [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i recall the patch chriss is talking about now [11:42]  You: And, we are talking about the UGAIM configuration, right? [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:42]  Hiro Protagonist: yep [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: i will change asset server [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: and restart it when meeting concludes [11:42]  You: Justin. Is this what you had in mind?? [11:42]  Digi Fly: helps turn grid security off, the asset loading from inventory ? [11:42]  Homer Horwitz: He was thrown out again. [11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: aah [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: yea we are going to disable secure assets for now [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: 1st as a test [11:43] Homer Horwitz: Ah, and back again :) [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: man, this is really peeing me off [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: then perhaps we'll keep it off if it is better [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: and work towards fixing it [11:43]  You: My opinion is that catering to Justin in our grid configuration will help us move more *better*. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: we 1st need to determine wether or not it truly is secure assets [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: so step one is turn it off [11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm minded to switch the default to non-secure.... [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: and see if things improve [11:43]  You: Exactly. If no change, we know it is not secure assets. [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, maybe that is too hasty [11:44]  Digi Fly: yes [11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: how about if I properly document the turn off switch, and then we try turning it off on osgrid? [11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: And see if that improves things? [11:44] You: So, we learn something either way, methinks. ??? Hrmm ??? Justin. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: its easy to disable [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: just change the asset server xml [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and restart it [11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: whalla [11:44] You: That would be awesome. Justin, we want to cater to your thoughts to allow logic to prevail. [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: no need to provice me with docs [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: provide [11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think the switch will be in the inventory configuration ;) [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: sure, if you're happy to go ahead then no problem [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:45]  You: My selfish motivation is that if we help you focus with OSGrid a little bit, then we get some additional benefit as you slide into FRI. [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I will document anyway [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: i knew it was one of the two [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: yes [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: heh, the self-interest ploy, I like it [11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: definatly docs are good [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: certainly one of our big concerns is going to be stability [11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: and reliability [11:45]  Homer Horwitz: Don't forget performance. [11:46]  Homer Horwitz: Inv takes *ages* to load at the moment [11:46]  You: Is that Ok, with you Nebadon and Hiro? We selfishly cater to Justin in hopes of gaining some attention as he slides into FRI? [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: to some extent, though it's actually probably less of a concern for us directly.... [11:46] Homer Horwitz nods [11:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: but as a simple core OpenSim developer it's still an issue for me ;) [11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: but the immediate issue of this damn console spew and user server contacting problems is getting to me too [11:47]  Homer Horwitz grins [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure that can't be helping with the client disconnects [11:47]  You: Dahlia. For your tests, you need someone to test the llRot2Axes and llSetForce stuff, methinks. Are there other tests that would help you? [11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: not sure, just would like to know if people have used them [11:47]  You: I underestand, Justin. I'm trying to dance fast and quick to help us get stability again. [11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: charles: okay [11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: I'v done a lot of testing myself [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: oh man [11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: script engine is freaking now [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: this is the same problem i get on Zaius Plaza [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I see it [11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: looks liek the event execution queue has been exceeded again [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: yea i get this on Zaius now [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: all the time [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: last week [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: you're running lots of scripts? [11:48] Homer Horwitz: Nice thing such a load test. With, erm, 13 users? [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: about 125 [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i would say no [11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: thats miniscule [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: well, the thing is, we were happily accomodating 30 not too long ago [11:48] You: not a whole lot. [11:48] Nebadon Izumi: in the grand scheme [11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: so we seem to be going backwards a bit [11:49] Homer Horwitz: Sounds like it :) [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: but then the script issues are quite possibly unrelated to avatar numbers [11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: there are still unimplemented areas of physics that may make llSetForce look strange when you try to stop things, but it's not a problem with llSetForce [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: script issue occurs on Zaius Plaza [11:49]  You: It should clear itself up after we leave. i think one of our issues is we are not handling multiple logins on the same sim as elegantly as we would like. [11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: with just me standing in it [11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that issue is almost certainly still around too :-( [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: looks to me like an event queue is overflowing [11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm beginning to think that starting to make the investment in more programmatic tests is going to be worthwhile [11:50] You: Ok, pulling back a step, we need to find a way to get more objective data for Mantis observations other then "its broke" [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: too many events and not enough cpu to support them? [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I would suggest starting a mantis thread, even with not very goo dinfo, and people adding to it [11:50]  You: dual-core, 2GByte RAM, 125 scripts, 4000 prims. [11:50] Dahlia Trimble: how's the load? [11:51] You: Almost 200% [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ouch [11:51] Dahlia Trimble: lol that could mean something [11:51] Kurt Stringer: Not a new or critical problem, but the ghost av issue is getting really irritating (#510), we could really use some more data on this problem [11:51] Digi Fly: wow [11:52] Homer Horwitz: At least one instance is easy to reproduce (added it to #510) [11:52] Warin Cascabel: I dunno, at least the ghosts let me see who's been visiting. :) [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: homer: oh cool [11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: seems events might need to be throttled? I think the Linden scripting engine can lose events too [11:52]  You: I would suggest we can help by adding observations to any Mantis. The mere act of adding a confirming observation, puts the Mantis on the top of the list. [11:52]  Chris D: The ghost issues also occurr in OGP testing ang Zha is looking into it [11:52]  Kurt Stringer: yeah, it is pretty easy to reproduce, but hard to debug... [11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh excelent, more eyes the better [11:52]  Homer Horwitz: Right Kurt [11:53]  Kurt Stringer: yes, [11:53]  You: Turning this around: "What are the things the users and testers need help from the developers on in the next week?" [11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: sdague told me he had a lead on the ghosting problem [11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: that he intended to investigate it on return from holiday [11:53] Dahlia Trimble: the ogp ghosting problem? [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: he also said its related to a certain class of lost connections with the inv server [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: the opensim ghosting problem [11:54] Dahlia Trimble: the 128/128/70 problem? [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: ok i set the inventory server xml to (session_lookup="False") [11:54] Nebadon Izumi: after the meeting i'll restart it [11:54]  Kurt Stringer: it happens on standalone multi region as well as grid [11:54] Homer Horwitz: That one, Dahlia, right. [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: cool [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: in my estimation, the ogp test is not being run under controlled enough circumstances at present to produce valid results [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I think if that does identify an issue then lulurun will be happy to take a look at it [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ok cool [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: the ogp test has a lot of PR associated with it [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: we'll give it 24 hours to soak in [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: then let you know [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: perhaps a bit longer? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: sure [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe 72 hours? [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ok [11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds good [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: dahlia: "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." -- Feynman [11:55] Dahlia Trimble: lol [11:56] Homer Horwitz: Thanks for the reference, I'll use that in my job ;) [11:56]  You: Can I suggest until Saturday morning and we re-evalute then? [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds good [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: chances are we'll keep it on for a while [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: if it helps [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: no reason we cant keep updating with info throughout [11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it helps then I think we should switch the default unless lulurun can identify a problem quicly [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: id like to hear from everyone myself [11:56]  You: Certainly, sounds like a good plan. [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: there experienes over the next few days with inventory [11:57]  Dahlia Trimble is neutral on the secure inventory thing [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: security is nice [11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: as long as it doesnt hinder stability [11:57]  Homer Horwitz: Yes, but only if it works. [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: yup+1 [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: performance i could handle [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: scurity is good [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yes, it definitely needs to be there... but we need some serious thought as to how we do it [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: if it affected performance [11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but stability is important [11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a pretty fundamental architectural thing [11:57] Hiro Protagonist: but only if it functions as designed [11:58] You: I'm kinda negative on it as it is not a secure inventory so much as an architectural change that appears to be causing instability. [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i think of the problems really [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: is any delays [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and OpenSIM barfs [11:58] You: I dont really think the name reflects what is happening. But, I have to admit that is an opinion and not fact. [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: this secure inventory causes delays [11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and i think thats where the problem is [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably nothing wrong with their code [11:58] Dahlia Trimble: I really haven't kept up with it [11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: but opensim doesnt handle delays well at all [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it did at first [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: it used to be that every inventory request needed a user server request [11:59] You: That could be. The testing they did does not consider the real-life load and use case. [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: to check that you were logged in [11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: even milisecond delays can be fatal in opensim [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: but lulurun changed that so things would be cached, which should have alleviated any issues in that area.... [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea [11:59] Hiro Protagonist: maybe its a simple bug they've yet to chase down [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: tahts why i dont think its so much that code [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: the inventory problems could even be something related to the user server issues (and possibly something esle) I'm seeing constantly on the console [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: but more a opensim issue in general [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: that probably plagues lots of areas [11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not just this [12:00] Hiro Protagonist: we could really stand to improve our concurrency on the grid services [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: are you seeing strain in that area? [12:00] Hiro Protagonist: oh yes [12:00] Hiro Protagonist: always and forever [12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: as more people add regions to osgrid we are going to see problems in that central chokepoint.... [12:00] Nebadon Izumi: yea the servers seem fairly stable [12:01] You: I would settle for seeing the number of open Mantisi start decreasing instead of increasing. [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but i still restart them daily [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: the grid servers [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: I think continuing to write down observations would be very useful for developers [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: atleast now on the new server [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i can do it without anyone noticeing [12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its so fast [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: to get some idea of the evolution o fhte state of the nation [12:01] Hiro Protagonist: yeah Neb, and another beneift is we can stop suspecting the server as a source of issues [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: another thing to note [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: one suggestion I would also like to make [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: with the majority of the other well known grids [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: the big players [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: they are pure windows environments [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: OpenLife, Tribal and Central Grid [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: are all windows [12:02] Nebadon Izumi: no linux [12:02] Homer Horwitz: How strange. [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: interesting [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I've seen hints that OpenLife are extending OpenSim themselves? [12:03] Hiro Protagonist: what suggestion was that Justin? [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: sort of [12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: just randomly poking around on their message boards [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: if you can call merging parts of Rex into OpenSIM "their own" work [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: then yea [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think openlife has come up with any improvments or anything like that [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: mostly its making a quazi mixed version of opensim + rex [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: it sounded like some server extensions or something for stability [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: yea hard to say [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if they never republish we're not really going to know much about it [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: thye are using MSSQL too [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: personally if their source isnt open [12:04] You: Any other things that need to be brought up to the developers? [12:04] Nebadon Izumi: which i dont think it is [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: im not interested in what they do [12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem interested in sharing what they do [12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: not with us anyway [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I do find that very disappointing [12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: its like a ghost party here [12:06] You: Ok, anything else for the developers? [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: everyones clouds of gas [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: funny [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting, my view of people when they actually have any clothes is okay [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: though I haven't cleared my cache for some time [12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea i cant get any inventory at all [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect thats why [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I think things are going to be a little slow in Auguest now... [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i just see everyone as ball of gas [12:07] Homer Horwitz: 5 smokies, 2 grays and the rest is ok [12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: as most people go on holiday [12:07] You: Justin. You are a cloud in my scene. Also Nebadon, Angelo and Warin. [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: August is gonna be slow month for opensim [12:07] Warin Cascabel: I see about half glowing clouds, a quarter grey, a quarter clothed... and I'm ruthed. [12:07] Nebadon Izumi: back to school should liven things up though [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea i do see myself ruthed [12:08] You: Ok. I declare the offical meeting over. Informal rumors can get started now. [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh [12:08] Nebadon Izumi: hey [12:08] Warin Cascabel: Ha. :) [12:08] Homer Horwitz grins [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: can someone do me a favor [12:08]  Snoopy Pfeffer: hehe [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: who didnt crash [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: and pastebin the entire chat log [12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: from the begining