Chat log from the meeting on 2020-08-11

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hello Andrew

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Everyone is here?

[11:03] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Not yet, Kayaker.

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Ubit.

[11:05] Ada Radius: back. Hi Andrew, Ubit

[11:05] Kayaker Magic: WB

[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Ada

[11:06] Object: Meeting chat logging has been enabled.

[11:06] Bill Blight: howdy

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: so ppl what is new on opensim ?

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you probably know that better than any of us. :)

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I finished writing an AO based on CHANGED_ANIMATION, trying to spread it around now.

[11:08] Kayaker Magic: Based on the popular ZHAO

[11:08] Bill Blight: cough cough, viewer AO ... :P

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks like it was a busy week for Ubit. I see quite a few changes.

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: well most are just code details

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: there was a bug fix that i remember

[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I would have taken one of the existing ones and just changed it from using a timer to an event for detecting a change in animation.

[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Yes, that is what I did.

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: script target events where disabled by the backup code :(

[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok. :)

[11:10] Kayaker Magic: ZHAO seems to be the most popular one, so I started there.

[11:10] Ada Radius: people like to hand them around. They'll get used.

[11:10] Kayaker Magic: The Z in the name was the last guy to work in it 13 years ago, so I changed the name to KHAO and added an S so I could pronounce it like CHAOS!

[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ZHAO is popular but it is based on the other popular Franimation AO, IIRC.

[11:12] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I left all the comments about the history in it, including GNU General Public License

[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: duhhh

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: i did add a few patchs ppl offered on mantis

[11:15] Kayaker Magic: WHAT? I thought all patches would always be ignored.

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: one from Bill with some settings from tampa and my fixes :p

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: that adds osSetParcelMusicURL

[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I see llTargetedEmail was implemented.

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: another one from stolenruby adds that llTargetedEmai

[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it was a contribution from a third party.

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well i changed it to include emails to the creator

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: that ll did had then removed

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: it is a problem

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: i added a little safeguard.. lets see

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: you can only send emails to creator using that, if you are the root prim and script creator...

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ie to have the thing send emails to you as creator

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ( something we should have a option to disable )

[11:19] Kayaker Magic: I recall that email is not set up to work from OSGrid regions, how hard is that to set up?

[11:19] Ubit Umarov: but then llemail is opent also

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: osg does not provide a mail service

[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Added for compatibility with SL. Not strictly needed if the setting in the ini file is set to restrict outgoing email.

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: you need to have your own

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and it does have ssl/tls

[11:20] Ubit Umarov: you may need a ssl tunnel to yr isp

[11:21] Ubit Umarov: at osgrid that is a region owner thing

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: kept making floatsam expires slower and slower, so it does not eat the machine resources

[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I had been looking at replacing the mail support by using functions available in .NET since the current mail module doesn't support more than basic authentication with the SMTP based mail server.

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: .but .net ones are heavy toys

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( like several things we use from it.. toys for simple programs.. )

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: our dependency on .net http is bad :(

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps but they are functions already available without need for any add on libraries and it supports a lot more of the current authentication methods.

[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.

[11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeah

[11:25] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi :) Sorry late

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Cuga.

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: but email is a very questionable thing to have

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: it is a very problematic thing

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: at least if use is allowed for everyone

[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, which is why I added the ini setting that can restrict outgoing email so it only goes to the script/object owner.

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: very easy to have a region turned into a spamming tools etc

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: ( well there are better ones.. but.. )

[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: The current email code uses DotNet which is ancient and hasn't been maintained in years.

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and it has a operational nasty issue ill need to try to fixx

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... DotNetMail.

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:27] Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been enabled.

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: restrictions on auth etc are from it

[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Right.

[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't handle anything more than basic password authentication, IIRC.

[11:28] Bill Blight: hence the need for something like stunnel to secure it

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ah add xengine option to run attachment scripts on a appdomin

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: That could lead to needing a secured/firewalled mail server just for outgoing mail.

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: they wil be slower. use more memory.. but in theory deleted from mem when ppl leavees

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: its a option...

[11:29] Bill Blight: stunnel will let you proxy to TLS/SSL options works with almost all existing secure mail providers

[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: My cat is after me for play time. :P

[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, how easy is it to set up?

[11:30] Bill Blight: very

[11:30] Bill Blight: has windows and linux versions

[11:31] Bill Blight: https://www.stunnel.org/

[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, good. Thanks for the link.

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably less work to use that than mess about with updating the current email code in OS.

[11:32] Bill Blight: even has an android version ... silly

[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Where's Gavin today? I still have a couple of viewer questions.

[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin and Selby are both missing.

[11:34] Ada Radius: Hi Gavin

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Here is Gavin.

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Gavin.

[11:34] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Gavin

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Time flies when you are testing stuff

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi all

[11:35] Bill Blight: Howdy Gavin

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: hi

[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I know that all too well.

[11:35] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: BRB.. relogging with FS Beta

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: finally got the (Mac) viewer to build with the boost.fiber lib

[11:35] Kayaker Magic: Gavin! Hello.

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: boost what?

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: gezz :)

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: There are so many libraries under the Boost umbrella.

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: viewers are strange things :)

[11:36] Bill Blight: Boost.Fiber sounds like a drink to fix your internal plumbing ...

[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: during the VS2017 conversion they found they could not get the boost coprocedure lib to recompile at all on it

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: btw also did migrate to 2017 ?

[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if boost.fiber allows you to make enough rope to hang yourself. ;)

[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they had to redo a lot of stuff including use a different boost library called fiber

[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ahh part of that migration

[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is a mess the whole thing

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: well thats a c++ thing.. you need code for each compiler

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Fun stuff.

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep

[11:38] Kayaker Magic: So with Apple going to ARM, does this mean one day there will be a viewer that runs on the Pi

[11:38] Kayaker Magic: ?

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no

[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the PI needs to support proper OpenGL first

[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, Deca.

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the ARM Macs will not support OpenGL at all

[11:39] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: hihi

[11:39] Ada Radius: Hi Deca

[11:39] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: wow all unknown users

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: thats HG for you :p

[11:39] Kayaker Magic: Deca, you rezzed slowly for me. Just a pair of eyeballs at first.

[11:39] Ubit Umarov: ( viewer side thing!! )

[11:39] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Names will appear in a couple minutes

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: yeah i removed code that did respond a name... so now viewers do retry later

[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, There is no current support for OpenGL on a Pi?

[11:40] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: oh

[11:40] Bill Blight: Howdy Deca.Dence ... Good anime name

[11:40] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: how come?

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OpenGL ES on the Pi

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the viewer does not build with it

[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer use the old OpenGL 2.1 profile

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: there are several versions of opengl

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: inc light ones

[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok.

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess all for arm are made thinking abotu mobile phones

[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: also I really don't think the GPU is up to it

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ( and their simple games.. )

[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know what the difference is between OGL and OGL ES. Perhaps someone might figure out how to make it work, if they want it badly enough.

[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Requires someone who knows the viewer render code....

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, and in a lot of embedded system boards.

[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think we might have to wait one iteration to get a PI with a more performant GPU before attempting it

[11:43] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: what about radegast>?

[11:43] Ubit Umarov: long since i looked to cinder version

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IDK - I have given up on it

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: but is 3d was.. well simple

[11:44] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: might that work on the pi

[11:44] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: ?

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: with 3d

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: without

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: well its 3d was bad on any platform

[11:45] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: nods

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but it is optional

[11:45] Ubit Umarov: you can use it as a text viewer

[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is pretty boring, but useful in some instances

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:46] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: names still not coming in

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: names are overrated

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: :p

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: a old problem with viewers

[11:47] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: when did you put the code in that broke that?

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: now also affect enviroment

[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I published anew set of viewers over the weekend with an updated cache that looks like it works well

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: we can tp and get the enviroment of the start region

[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Oooh! What did you do to the cache?

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a LL change to use standard llsd

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: ( ie the env of the parcel on start region with same localID )

[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it is faster and since it also updates llsd there are some other loading issues that works better

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: gave up asking viewer devs to fix it :p

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: guess not that easy to fix either..

[11:48] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: the name thing Ubit?

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: beeing a timing issue

[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bonus is the copybot programs don't know how to read the cache any more :-O

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: yes, but its is all region capabilities

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: viewers keep asking to start regions, about things on the new one

[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually the name thing works better after the llsd update

[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen that Unknown User thing in a long time.

[11:50] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: so names need a new viewer and a new release?

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and it is a timing thing during tp

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: i did tried to slow region tp code.. so far no result

[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't slow things...

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: bc there is nothing viewer sends when it is actually ready

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ive no way of telling

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and on same cases viewers do very heavy things

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: like remaping all prims on the regions it needs to keep

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: ( or removing the other ones )

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: tp is a heavy point

[11:53] Kayaker Magic: Gavin, I'm confused about the lineage of Dayturn, is it based on FireStorm? Why does Dayturn still have a few 256m limitations that have been fixed in FS?

[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not based on Firestorm at all

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: fs fixed it?

[11:53] Ubit Umarov: i did ask for then.. seen no fix

[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is based on Imprudence --> Kokua

[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is very littel FS code in it

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeap not fixed

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: 256 hard limit

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: think dytunr does have a option no gavin?

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and dayturn

[11:55] Ubit Umarov: a damm pain ppl need to use singu to edit large prims

[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only FS code in Dayturn is the built in AO, legacy profiles, legacy search and the exporter

[11:56] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: i see you making changes to the HG code

[11:56] Bill Blight: pretty sure there is still a debug option in Dayturn to DisableBuildConstraints

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: gavin what is daytunr option to not cap prims to 256m on edit?

[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DisableBuildConstraints

[11:56] Bill Blight: Or it is in the advanced menu, don't remember

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: ok ty

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from teh Advanced menu

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well the edit limit on opensim should just be 1024 by default

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: regions do cap if not set for it

[11:57] Kayaker Magic: I was editing prim positions on a var, and the jumped down to be inside the sw 256 corner.

[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then they can use Disable Build constraints with Dayturn :-)

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: thats other story

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: other issue somewhere

[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Just a couple of minutes left in the hour. Does anyone have a question they need to ask before people start leaving?

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: prim position is other code path

[11:59] Ada Radius: Increased verts on an avatar - it doesn't affect Avatar Complexity much. Does it affect the server side?

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: server does not have av complexity

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only more storage and time to send to the veiwer

[12:00] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The avatar orange cloud never rendering on login problem... any new developments?

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: does have some for of LI

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer*

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: but only informative

[12:00] Ada Radius: I know. And I don't trust the av complexity calculation much anyway. I want to know what avatar resources hit the server the most

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ( for now.. )

[12:00] Ada Radius: avatar assets I meant

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: the sizes of things

[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn does not have the complexity calculation code at all

[12:00] Ada Radius: size measured in meters or in verts or?

[12:01] Bill Blight: bytes

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: how much data server need to send to show a av

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: byes

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: i mean for server cost

[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: filesize of the dae will tell you

[12:01] Ada Radius: bytes. OK ty

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: meters are irrelevant

[12:01] Bill Blight: it's all just data to the server, more data more clogged up pipes

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: except mb on collisions

[12:01] Kayaker Magic: one vertex = 12 bytes

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: but worn things have no collisions

[12:02] Ada Radius: the dae files for avatars don't include relevant data for materials - those can only be added inworld. Though they might be in the dae.

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well a bit more.. but 12 is ok

[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ( in memory )

[12:02] Ada Radius: OK

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: a tru has 3 indexes also so 12bytes also

[12:03] Ubit Umarov whispers: ( in memory with current 32bit indexes mode )

[12:03] Kayaker Magic: Plus 12 bytes for a normal, plus 9 bytes for a UV co-ord....

[12:04] Ada Radius: so vert count on an avatar would make a difference if there were hundreds or thousands of avatars (as Kitely is working on), but not if there are only dozens.

[12:04] Ubit Umarov: vert count mks a diference evenry time

[12:04] Bill Blight: well getting that data to the viewers matters

[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the owrn meses probably count a lot more

[12:05] Kayaker Magic: I'm looking at the llm (linden lab mesh) file format and it has a binormal for every vertex also. Is that really used anywhere in the viewer?

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: worn*

[12:05] Bill Blight: more verts more data to send to viewers

[12:05] Ada Radius: ya

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: must be the small as possible to achive desired visual effect

[12:05] Ada Radius: though if you had a thousand avs on a sim, you wouldn't want everyone to actually seee everyone

[12:05] Bill Blight: so can cause lag due to clogged pipes of there are dozens of "vert heavy" avatars

[12:05] Ubit Umarov: or prims there is the materials map to try to reduce that count

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you look at the DAZ base models which are in the 25k range, they all look pretty good

[12:06] Ada Radius: yes.

[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the highrez versions typically are at 65k

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but .. a tradeoff .. less verts and triangles but a "texture"

[12:06] Ada Radius: texturing matters more. But the Athena and other SL ripoffs are hugely dense in vert count.

[12:06] Bill Blight: There is a big diff between Viewer Lag, and Server Lag, and Network Lag

[12:06] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: really?

[12:06] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: or you meaning the old versions

[12:07] Ada Radius: if you hit control-shift-r, you can see the wireframe, and look at vertex density

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: at sl avatars seem a lot ligher now

[12:07] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: their complexities on new models equal that of ruth

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: use of bom also i guess

[12:07] Ada Radius: bom seems to reduce the avatar complexity number

[12:07] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: less onion skins

[12:07] Ada Radius: yes

[12:07] Ubit Umarov: ( textures sizes and other parameters also count a lot for complexity )

[12:07] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: layers\

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[12:08] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: but few were used in opensim

[12:08] Ada Radius: alphas are the most, viewer side. I wouldn't think so much viewer side.

[12:08] Ada Radius: server side I meant

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: guess bom things are bit harder to steal

[12:08] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: not really

[12:08] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: easier i think

[12:08] Ubit Umarov: nahh

[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep

[12:08] Ada Radius: if someone can access their cach they can access all the textures

[12:08] Bill Blight: Biggest issue with creators, is the use of HUGE textures when they don't need to be huge, causes viewer lag when it is not needed

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: yo don't get the needed wearables

[12:09] Ada Radius: yes

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: so stuck with current baked

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: and those will not work on opensim

[12:09] Ada Radius: no- you're right, if several textures are baked together, less useful to thieves

[12:09] Bill Blight: you don't need a 1024x1024 texture for a piece of jewelry

[12:09] Ubit Umarov: you do need the wearables

[12:09] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: st5ill using the textures on the system avatar

[12:10] Ada Radius: @Bill, you're preaching to the choir. I have had many pitched battles with artists over texture size.

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ( that opensim also no longer sends to others )

[12:10] Bill Blight: I've seen them ... LOL

[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well ill kill them more as we go

[12:10] Bill Blight: I always start with the smallest and only use the largest texture I need to make it look right

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: have issues seening tons ov ppl using imprudence

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: grrr

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: seems a lot of people only has win XP

[12:11] Bill Blight: You can't have a Modern Opensim, and use a ancient viewer

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: using imprudence?

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: last update was in 2014

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: bc they only have win XP

[12:11] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: so still on .8.2?

[12:11] Ubit Umarov: opensim is not only used on "1st world"

[12:12] Bill Blight: When People ask for "New Features" they have to realize many will not work with OLD viewers .. This stuff is not magic ..

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: no at lbsa 0.9.2 :p

[12:12] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: yes but they HG there?

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: no

[12:12] Ubit Umarov: native users

[12:12] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: well they want new features without braking old

[12:12] Bill Blight: too bad

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: and im told that most of them only have win XP

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: so not many viewer options for them

[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn up to 1.5-ish might work on XP

[12:13] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: opensim is for more then just you Bill

[12:13] Bill Blight: There is a reason SL blacklists viewers after a certain amount of time

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: so that did old me from removing some code

[12:13] Ubit Umarov: or changing

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: well but opensim is not only for "1st world" users

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: well or i would not be here :p

[12:14] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: yes but stuff is getting broke that didnt need to be

[12:14] Ubit Umarov: this stupid country is not 1st world either

[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to install it on an XP VM and see if it works

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: code devs are forced to drop old os suport

[12:15] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Will recent OS releases blacklist viewers that are known to break on them, or do we have to do that manually from ini?

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: i did that forced to migrate to -net 4.6

[12:15] Ubit Umarov: there is no -net4-6 for xp

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: and just bc ms decided

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: like 4.8 is win7 min

[12:16] Ada Radius: It might be a good idea to think more about how what we're doing will work 15 years from now, rather than 15 years ago. I'm thinking a lot about avatar body topology, looking forward.

[12:16] Bill Blight: How do you know it didn't need to be?? How do you know what in the new features the old stuff may have broken?

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: all industry wants to sell new things

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: reuse of old hardware etc is a crime

[12:16] Ubit Umarov: in their eyes

[12:17] Bill Blight: Not to mention, opensim needs to stop living in the past if it is going to keep moving forward

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: bill a lot of things could work fine

[12:17] Ada Radius: taking into consideration that not everyone can buy new hardware nor get reliable connections

[12:17] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: because they still work in other  forks that have the new features also

[12:17] Ada Radius: I have to go play RL. Thank you for answers!

[12:17] Bill Blight: then go to their dev meetings

[12:17] Ubit Umarov: well as i said, opensim is not only for 1st world ppl also

[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Bye, Ada. Thanks for dropping by.

[12:18] Kayaker Magic: bye Ada! oh poofed already...

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: and waitng to see what happens when ms releases .net5

[12:18] Chat Logger: Meeting chat logging has been disabled.

[12:18] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I should go too.. Take care everybody :)

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: that is the new name for core

[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga. See you again next week.

[12:18] Ubit Umarov: original .net core was very incompatible with .net framework

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: and missed a lot of things

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: like image processing

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: no bitmap things

[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who needs that

[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably about time to wrap up the meeting. I still have my cat asking for my attention.

[12:19] Ubit Umarov: for us that meant no maps... no dinamtic textures etc

[12:19] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: anyway the names never did arrive   except steevithak's

[12:20] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: so looks like names need fixing

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: ( think they did add bitmaps to core 3.x bc found how stupid that was )

[12:20] Bill Blight: gavin can you see names ?

[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: names arrived fine for me

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: yeah i asked viewer devs a lot

[12:20] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: or is unknown names a new feature?

[12:20] Ubit Umarov: but that is hard .. i think

[12:20] steevithak x: Hey, new here, was wondering if anyone could activate my account on the opensim wiki

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the llsd update made it better than before as it then often took a few minutes

[12:21] Kayaker Magic: Names worked for me.

[12:21] Bill Blight: Broken for one person at a meeting does not mean BROKEN

[12:21] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: compatibility issue then

[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so thest with my viewer https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/

[12:21] Ubit Umarov: nahh yr bad luck only :p

[12:21] Kayaker Magic: LLSD means, try a new viewer soon to see if names are fixes? No need for a server update to go with that?

[12:21] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: i see changes to HG code so since i am from the HG, maybe there

[12:21] Bill Blight: Gavin is from HG

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes HG

[12:22] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: his grid maybe on new master

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not entirely

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: open people floater

[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: steevithak, you have some changes you want to make to the wiki?

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: or close/open

[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not have any of the http server updates yet

[12:22] Ubit Umarov: no idea when viewer decides to retry those

[12:23] steevithak x: yes, wanted to update the Centos-related init stuff to include systemd unit example

[12:23] Kayaker Magic: Ha! Steevithak, I have that T-shirt in RL!

[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: steevithak, IM me your user ID and email. I can activate the account.

[12:24] steevithak x: cool, thanks!

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: yw

[12:24] Deca.Dence @decadence.ddns.net:8002: waves

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything more for today? I need to go soon to deal with this cat. :)

[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Deca

[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Deca.

[12:24] Kayaker Magic: I'm done.

[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Kayaker

[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Let's call this meeting concluded for today.

[12:25] Ubit Umarov: thx for the scripts kayaker

[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:25] Kayaker Magic: Bye all!