Chat log from the meeting on 2017-06-06

[11:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-ima-oshg-ima-test-wg-suites-needed.html [11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone [11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I thought Ubit was online as he shows in my friends list but an IM to him says he isn't online. [11:15] Arielle Popstar: mine too but when i tried contacting it said  he was  offline  so suspect  he  crashed [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit has made more commits to the code based this past week. [11:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Was there a fix for the llListen failure? [11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: A number of the changes were related to DNS and/or mono issues. [11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Hey made a change a while back to mitigate the listen failure [11:18] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: mitigate? [11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Not that I see from the ChangeLog [11:18] Arielle Popstar: bet he is working on : bug fix: handle current region on GetChildAgentsToClose [11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it seems to be better but not fixed .. [11:21] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: We were saying that some llListen issues have been "mitigated" a while ago. Is that Mantis 8135? [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I thought there was .. maybe I dreamed it ... LOL [11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Is it odd that I dream of opensim stuff being fixed .... [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org looks up mantis #8135 [11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: 0008135: llListen starts to fail after it is used > 720 times in temp rez objects [11:24] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: That was the simplest test I have come up with that demonstrates the problem. [11:24] Ubit Umarov: reading mantis seems i did fix it [11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Great! I'll go test it. [11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: How do I make a mantis turn green? By marking it closed or fixed? [11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, you referenced mantis #8135 in a changelog entry but that was all so I didn't see that it had been dealt with at all, at first. [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ahh yes so I didn't dream it .. Now I feel less insane .. [11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :) [11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What else has been happening this past week? [11:30] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was talking to Joe Builder this morning who says that there is a speed limit in ubODE and he cannot make fast vehicles. Is this true in ubODE? [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: lol .. you should come see the vehicles on my grid [11:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL [11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have a little flyer that is too fast for an 8x8 you blink you are off the other side of the sim [11:31] Ubit Umarov: yes there is a limit hmm somewhere [11:31] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: He also said that when vehicles go fast they move in a jerky fashion and he implied that does not happen in Bullet. [11:32] Arielle Popstar: seen that  in both [11:32] Arielle Popstar: but is  inconsistent [11:32] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: turn camera smoothing down to NOTHING if in Firestorm seems to make the jerkyness go away [11:32] Arielle Popstar: think it is viewer [11:32] Ubit Umarov: yeap viewers do odd things in some cases [11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think with smoothing on or higher, the viewer tries to compensate for the movement, with it off it just goes with the flow [11:33] Arielle Popstar: more noticible when there is a passenger  in the vehicle too [11:33] Ubit Umarov: specially for the passenger [11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If you script the camera in their seat so it takes camera control away from the viewer, no jerkyness [11:34] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is that the jerkyness that goes away if you focus the viewer on your avatar? [11:34] Arielle Popstar: not tried that [11:35] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I recall a problem where the riders jerked fore and aft, if I focused on one it stopped but not the other. [11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I saw that Kayaker, that is when I started using scripted cameras in the passengers seats [11:36] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Good idea, I will try that. [11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hm... I'll have to check the camera smoothing option when I'm riding a ferris wheel I have built. [11:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I am not trying to brag, ok maybe a little, but you shoupl pop over to my jet ski track or my tropical sim and take some of my water toys for a spin .. [11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXRgSmRGEd0 [11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: oops wrong link .. but a good one anyway [11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unLJxpq3rmo&list=PL6KNWgPRDK06Bbkje2SzBQ7ENmZ9gQkZz [11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, is the speed limit in ubODE there by design or a side effect of something? [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm not sure how fast Joe wants to go, but you can make them so fast they are uncontrollable now .. [11:41] Ubit Umarov: think limit is 50m/s or something [11:42] Arielle Popstar: seemed to me  it  is like that when i was trying  out  a couple vehicles  last week [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, ok. [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't tried driving any vehicles for some time. [11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is there an INI file option to change that speed limit? [11:42] Ubit Umarov: rotations do have a lot lower limit to avoid aliasing [11:43] Arielle Popstar: maybe in opensimdefaults.ini? [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: 50m/s sounds about right that is about 110mph so even on a 8x8 that being only 1.34 approx miles across you are flying pretty fast .. [11:44] Ubit Umarov: no no config on that [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so while 50m/s sounds relatively slow, with our region sizes it is actually pretty fast [11:46] Ubit Umarov: if (len > 100000.0f) // limit to 100m/s {               len = 100.0f / (float)Math.Sqrt(len); newVel *= len; } [11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ahh so it is 100? [11:46] Ubit Umarov: guess so [11:46] Ubit Umarov: avatars is lower [11:47] Arielle Popstar: unless they using a speedhud? [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so it is even faster than I thought, never really measured it .. LOL [11:47] Ubit Umarov: no speedhuds [11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: That is about 224 mph [11:47] Ubit Umarov: a limit is a limit :p [11:48] Arielle Popstar: a speedhud i got from Joe  a few years  ago at  max  setting   is  as  fast  or faster then the vehicles [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yeah the osSetSpeed does seem to kind of blow past that [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: For avatars [11:49] Arielle Popstar: OSSL Runtime Error: osSetSpeed permission denied. Script creator is not in the list of users allowed [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: No speed hud for YOU [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [11:49] Arielle Popstar: why do i get that  error   so much now? [11:50] Ubit Umarov: maximumAngularVelocity = 0.49f * heartbeat *(float)Math.PI; maxAngVelocitySQ = maximumAngularVelocity * maximumAngularVelocity; [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: because it is not in the ossl permissions for being true [11:50] Ubit Umarov: this is the omega limit [11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: At full speed it would take about 21 seconds to fully cross an 8x8 region [11:50] Arielle Popstar: bloody pain [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is an ossl function that has to be allowed by the regions config/owner [11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: osSetSpeed has a threat level of moderate. [11:51] Arielle Popstar: whats the worst   thast can happen....i run off the sim? : [11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: People don't allow it because it can ruin the "ambiance" of their builds with people playing "The Flash" around their sims [11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:52] Arielle Popstar: does setting the threat level to severe  have  any actual effect  on the ossl  functions  or do they need to be enabled  individually? [11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: They have to be set in each region instance [11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: now in the osslEnable.ini [11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes  but  it used  to be that setting  ossl function to severe,  it would enable all [11:54] Arielle Popstar: no longer seems the case [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, you have the choice of simply setting the threat level you want to allow or you can keep the threat level low and enable specific OSSL functions [11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: even at severe functions can be limited to specific groups or users [11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if setting the threat level doesn't enable all functions with the specified threat level and lower that would be a bug. [11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: unless it is set to True .. [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: And by groups I mean, region owner, parcel owner, god , etc [11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I haven't tried adjusting threat level up a bit and then trying to use Allow_os... to disable a function that would otherwise be allowed. [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have some settings like that I have not noticed anything not working as it is set in the ini [11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but maybe I have just not hit the right set of circumstances [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you find that the Allow_ setting will override the threat level setting regardless of whether it is to enable or disable a given OSSL function? [11:57] Arielle Popstar: behaviour in .8.2  was  that setting it to severe  allowed  all functions  without having to enable each  individually [11:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well it was, I have not tested those specific things lately, I can do that before the next meeting or if it does not work I'll post a bug on the mantis [11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it enables them if set to True [11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if they are still restricted to users or types of users then only those can use them even if severe is set [11:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: example: Allow_osSetSpeed =                ${XEngine|osslParcelO}ESTATE_MANAGER,ESTATE_OWNER [12:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: by default it is not set to true [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I just looked at the code and from what I can tell the first thing checked is whether the function was specified in an Allow_ line. If so, that line controls the use of the function. If no Allow_ line was given it checks that the function threat level is lower or equal to the max threat level. [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so if you take the allow line out it just enables it for all if it is below the current threat level? [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: below or the same as [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that seems a little scary [12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: with new functions being added [12:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that may not be in someones osslEnable.ini [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: That is why the default threat level is VeryLow [12:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Right but what I am saying is what if a new function is added that a user is not aware of, and uses their old osslEnable.ini [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: then the new function is unlimited if equal or below the current threat level [12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That seems to me, that it could be a unwanted situation .. [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. But if a user has set their max allowed threat level to something rather high it is partly their own fault for doing that if a new function is added that they wouldn't want to allow. [12:04] Arielle Popstar: yes but  the setting is a degree of trust [12:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is my point you trusted all the functions you knew of, but a new one you may not know about .. [12:04] Arielle Popstar: so if a new  function  is assigned  to a certain level of trust  then  the user  can  understand  that   the new  function  has a certain level of risk [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not everyone reads the release notes [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: If a new function is added a new Allow line would be added to the osslEnable.ini if the new functions needs to have its use restricted. [12:05] Arielle Popstar: i dont  really  have a clue about the ones  that are there [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: a lot of people don't update their configs [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they use the old ones [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: A grid operator should see the new line when they check for changes when performing a grid upgrade. [12:05] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so they don't have to go make all their mods [12:05] Arielle Popstar: i just  want them on so that when i get a new  item  with a script, it works [12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you are right a grid operator should pay that close of attention, but someone running a home region may not .. [12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I don't see a need to protect people who know better, protection is for the people who don't know better [12:06] Arielle Popstar: but they are a grid  operator  at that  point [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you are right about that. [12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not if they are attaching to osgrid [12:06] Arielle Popstar: no need to be big brother [12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if they are just attaching a region to osgrid they would run into the issue [12:06] Arielle Popstar: a home user  is  going to have  a problem  finding the right  function to enable [12:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: So enabling them all, even if they don't know about it is a "better" option? [12:07] Arielle Popstar: mmhmm :) [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Not really. The error message will state what function wasn't allowed. They just need to know to look at the log file or the console for their region. [12:08] Arielle Popstar: whats the levels  based  on? [12:08] Arielle Popstar: the degree of  threat from outside  source? #[12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: cool .. I could really trash someones region if they had all the functions enabled for everyone!! #[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :) #[12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Would not do it, but it is true [12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, the potential for abuse, or impact a function can have on a grid if (ab)used. [12:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not just a grid, but a simple attached region as well, personal regions [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Some functions could let a person do nasty things in a region a region owner may not want others to do. Some functions could be useful to griefers. Some could just cause lag in a region. [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Maybe there should be an setting to ENABLE ALL OSSL, for people who want to live dangerously [12:10] Arielle Popstar: yes like it used  to be Bill [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Let's talk console commands from OSSL [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I could wipe your region if they were ALL enabled [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: lol [12:10] Arielle Popstar: shrugs [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, there is, sort of. You have to set allowed threat level to Severe then comment out all the Allow_ lines. [12:11] Arielle Popstar: thats why they  suggest backups [12:11] Arielle Popstar: oh ok Andrew [12:11] Arielle Popstar: that new [12:11] Arielle Popstar: having to comment  out the allow_ [12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: With all the stink and bad press that Opensim gets about security and permissions, this is a dangerous direction Arielle [12:12] Arielle Popstar: its how it has always been Bill [12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That does not make it right [12:13] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I've been testing mantis #8135 in another window, it is FIXED! How do I mark a mantis green? I've tried "fixed" and it does not change color. [12:13] Arielle Popstar: it changed  with the ossl.ini [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: one would be better off putting their avatars UUID in to the Allow functions for ones they want to be able to use rather than giving everyone who visits their region the ability to use all OSSL functions [12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Or stick with .8x :P [12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, change it to Resolved. You will be prompted for a final comment and can set the status to FIXED [12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if they are items you are putting out you should know what functions the items use and what OSSL functions (if any) need to be enabled for all to use so that they can use your items. [12:16] Arielle Popstar: i am  a user  Andrew, not a scripter  or programmer [12:16] Arielle Popstar: i run regions [12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, the settings were to make the use of OSSL functions safer for those people who don't, or won't, review the settings. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: i shouldnt need to know every specific   function  for visitors  to enjoy  the items on my sim [12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: then there is common sense ... You don't leave your car unlocked an running in the mall parking lot .. Or would shutting it off and locking it be considered bad .. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: i dont leave it running  to conserve  gas  and not pollute [12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, you can set the threat level how you want as long as you know the implications of doing so. [12:17] Arielle Popstar: the rest is  well..... :) [12:18] Arielle Popstar: yes but as  you pointed  out, setting the level is no longer enough [12:18] Arielle Popstar: you also  have to now   comment out the allow_ [12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: No, it isn't. You also need to comment out the Allow_ lines. [12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ossl has mod functions that can issue commands to the console [12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if someone sets the threat level to Severe they are allowing people to use the osConsoleCommand function. [12:20] Arielle Popstar: when did the osconsolecommand  functions  come  in? [12:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: .69 [12:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think [12:21] Arielle Popstar: though i thought there was a setting for allowing access to the console from within  world  seperate  from ossl [12:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and that is fine .. but making it the default, then EVERYONE would know it was ON for EVERYONE [12:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not if you override it by taking out all the permissions from OSSL [12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, you are talking about settings for everyone to use. I would suggest a max threat level of VeryHigh would be safer as it prevents anyone from using console commands [12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and setting the level that high [12:22] Arielle Popstar: ok Andrew [12:22] Arielle Popstar: makes sense [12:22] Ubit Umarov: its Resolved :p [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, it is still a lot safer to figure out which other functions are needed by objects people are supposed to use in a region. [12:23] Ubit Umarov: ( mantis 8135 i mean ) [12:23] Arielle Popstar: but a user who  runs  their own regions  but doesnt  know  about  the  ossl  functions  other then the  frustration when scripts  dont  work, the tendency  is  just to set everything to max  allowed [12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: The ones that are often disabled by default but wanted by some script writers are the ones to make a notecard, some of the animation related functions, and some of the NPC ones. [12:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: most items that use OSSL functions of not standard levels the creators include notecards telling you as such .. [12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL Andrew [12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: we were on the same thought [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: It is also one of the reasons I want to finish updating the OSSL wiki on the web site to specify what the default threat levels and permissions are for each of the functions. [12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Or at the very least there are notes in the script itself [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, :) [12:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You should never use a flame thrower without reading the instructions first, that is how you get burned [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of script writers see an OSSL function listed in the wiki and assume they can use it without knowing that it may be restricted in some regions/grids. [12:26] Arielle Popstar: yes andrew [12:26] Arielle Popstar: and therefore dont include  a notecard  to the effect