Chat log from the meeting on 2018-03-27

[11:07] Sheera Khan: Ubit, how's your httptest going? [11:07] Ubit Umarov: did not mess much with it [11:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use the test branch everyday ... Well a flavor of it ... [11:08] Ubit Umarov: last work/pending.. Yengine .. needs more cleanup, and decision abotu features we really want, from the xmrones [11:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yengine is pretty smooth, I think people will complain about it being a tad bit more strict to syntax though [11:09] LaNani Sundara: is the Yengine the main difference with that dev master? [11:09] Ubit Umarov: bf that i was changing some serialization on inventory fetch, still more to do [11:09] Ubit Umarov: Yengine ( from xmr) should be closer to SL on syntax [11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: httptests has a LOT of differences to master, increased .NET version is one of them [11:10] Ubit Umarov: well its error reporting is just BAD [11:10] LaNani Sundara: hmm ok [11:10] Ubit Umarov: most cases gives useless line numbers, and totally useless stack dump [11:10] Ubit Umarov: scripters do not care about internal c# stack [11:11] Ubit Umarov: well X used to do that also.. [11:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: there are some really nice C# functions, that it has that would like to use, such as arrays [11:11] Ubit Umarov: but Y error reporting is as now a lot worse than X [11:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Was going to say, "What error reporting?" concerning Yengine [11:12] Ubit Umarov: well thing about those extentions is that they look like c# but are not [11:12] LaNani Sundara: remind me again, besides you enjoying it, why you are making a new engine? [11:12] Ubit Umarov: some are non standard.. so.. not sure we should keep them as they are [11:12] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Is the commit to master ok, dos'nt seem to do much? [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: The new engine is quite a bit faster, [11:12] LaNani Sundara: faster sounds good [11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yengine is not in Master [11:12] LaNani Sundara: uses less CPU? less RAM? [11:13] Ubit Umarov: well faster is not WHY lol [11:13] Kayaker Magic: Hopefully the new engine has a fix for the llSleep bug. [11:13] Ubit Umarov: it does solve the llSleep issue [11:13] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: did not say it was, there was a comit to naster today [11:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: NO faster is not WHY but is a result [11:13] Ubit Umarov: it does "micro multithreading" [11:13] LaNani Sundara: hmm [11:14] Ubit Umarov: llSleep and similar do actually release the thread, that can do somethign else [11:14] Sheera Khan: I really would like to see real arrays with multiple dimensions ;-) [11:14] Ubit Umarov: and, not tested, deleted scripts should release memory [11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: State changes are faster on Yengine and do not seem to stutter [11:14] Ubit Umarov: and the parsing is a lot more like SL one.. [11:15] Ubit Umarov: it does parse somethings X does fail to [11:15] LaNani Sundara: *looking at the commit... [11:16] Ubit Umarov: of course it is a LSL( OSSL) only engine.. no options fo use c# VB etc that X can co [11:16] Ubit Umarov: it does its own IL code generation [11:16] Kayaker Magic: Does anyone actually use those VB, etc options? [11:16] Ubit Umarov: a few use C# [11:17] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I use c# [11:17] Ubit Umarov: but that can only be used on a very closed region [11:17] LaNani Sundara: VB? i doubt it... [11:17] Ubit Umarov: another thing about Y is scripts passing [11:17] Ubit Umarov: on crossings and tps [11:18] LaNani Sundara: what if you cross from a region with xengine to one with yengine and teh other way round [11:18] Ubit Umarov: it does not send binary dll, but a previus step data ( AST ) that compiles to IL faster and hopefully safer [11:18] LaNani Sundara: different sims ofc [11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Scripts will reset and if they did not exist they will need to recompile [11:18] Ubit Umarov: so "trustbinary ) is more safe.. well it actually ignores that option :) [11:19] Ubit Umarov: yes not that compatible with X [11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: So regardless of how good Yengine may be, we will see the, "OMG IT IS DIFFERENT , KILL IT!!" cries ... HAHA [11:19] Ubit Umarov: that is a issue.. some scripts that depend on script state lose it [11:19] LaNani Sundara: if it doesnt have obvious benefits or improvements, yes probably Bill [11:20] Ubit Umarov: ie those things from sl that are sold with  paramaters on scripts variables, will fail [11:20] LaNani Sundara: same reason people stay on older opensim versions [11:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Benefits don't have to be a flashing neon sign to be relevant, and unfortunately that is what it seems people look for .. [11:20] LaNani Sundara: *nods [11:21] Ubit Umarov: opensim is a open source project, people use what they want [11:21] LaNani Sundara: as you know i do Ubit ;) [11:22] Ubit Umarov: the reverse of that, is that we can ignore people and move on :p [11:22] LaNani Sundara: haha :p [11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( well within reason .p ) [11:22] LaNani Sundara: i do stay uptodate with the master, even if i merge it with my code [11:22] Ubit Umarov: well master is outdated [11:23] Sheera Khan: leaving Windows XP behind is reasonable imho ;-) [11:23] Ubit Umarov: current master is httptests [11:23] Ubit Umarov: we are having a organizational issue on that.. [11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: httptests is so far ahead of master it is not even really the same version any more [11:23] LaNani Sundara: o idk... :) its ahead or the offcial release still [11:24] Ubit Umarov: basicly our machine is now outdated, we can't upgrade it to a new kernel etc [11:24] Ubit Umarov: so we can't use a recent mono.. [11:24] Ubit Umarov: as you know httptests now targets -net4.6 [11:24] LaNani Sundara: why not?i have build on the latest monos [11:24] Ubit Umarov: that means a mono 5.x [11:24] Ubit Umarov: and win vista at least [11:25] LaNani Sundara: i always use last mono and update mono [11:25] Ubit Umarov: so, at least for me, current master is 0.9 bugs fixes [11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: The Core Dev system that runs their jenkins and build environment cannot be upgraded so it is tough [11:25] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I run on LInux 4.5 and windows 4.6.1 with a few small adjustments [11:26] LaNani Sundara: ah ok [11:26] Ubit Umarov: its a ubuntu 10 thing [11:26] Ubit Umarov: if we try to upgrade it, we may lose it :p [11:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Mono 5.x really has better memory managment and is compatible to a higher level of .NET [11:26] LaNani Sundara: ok i understand [11:26] LaNani Sundara: ts just that one machine thats the issue [11:27] Ubit Umarov: but well im not a linux sysadm.. so can't do much on that [11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think there is also some resistance to moving to a newer .NET codebase, as some people who are very LOUD would also need to upgrade [11:27] Sheera Khan: well, do it anyways... [11:27] LaNani Sundara: upgrade from win 7 [11:27] LaNani Sundara: :D [11:28] Ubit Umarov: " Project opensim » mono-2.10.8.1 build #5869: SUCCESS in 8 min 59 sec: http://jenkins.opensimulator.org/job/opensim/MONO_VERSION=mono-2.10.8.1/5869/" [11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I cringe everytime I see that Ubit [11:28] Ubit Umarov: well mono 2.10... not really good anymore [11:28] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Maybe a 12 months notice would soften the blow :) [11:29] LaNani Sundara: seems mostly just a funding issue? [11:29] LaNani Sundara: to get a better test machine [11:29] Ubit Umarov: well httptests has 4.6 as target.. may change to 4.6.2 ( losing vista suport ) [11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Could the machine run 3.2.8 at least? [11:29] Ubit Umarov: mono 3 is also useless now [11:29] Sheera Khan: Anyone using Vista around? [11:30] LaNani Sundara: Vista... i hope not [11:30] Ubit Umarov: most 4,x suports .net4.5 only.  and most are bad [11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Perhaps but it would still be newer than 2.10 [11:30] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Mono master at  5.13 [11:31] LaNani Sundara: master builds and runs fine on uptodate mono [11:31] Ubit Umarov: what?? was 5.10 a few days ago [11:31] Ubit Umarov: lol [11:31] Sheera Khan: Support for MS Vista ended on 11th of april last year [11:31] Ubit Umarov: well you need to fix prebuid to use msbuild [11:31] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: odd number are pre release [11:31] Kayaker Magic: msbuild does not like our makefiles. [11:32] Sheera Khan: anyone using it still will have a lot of security issues by now and most probably a locked down computer due to some ransomware^^ [11:32] Ubit Umarov: httptests has a hacked prebuild that does msbuild projects fine ( hacked bc was not a proper fix :p ) [11:32] LaNani Sundara: i use monodevelop [11:32] LaNani Sundara: GUI [11:32] Ubit Umarov: well what made me move on from 4.0 was a security issue on .net [11:32] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: you can manually preset prebuild.xml to 4.5 and things should work [11:32] Ubit Umarov: i mean .net4.0 [11:32] Kayaker Magic: The documentation still says you should use nant for testing. But it does not work. [11:33] Ubit Umarov: docs are for mono 2.10 :p [11:33] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: you nay need to clean up old assemblies, manually though [11:34] Kayaker Magic: My observation on projects like this are that the makefiles are a write-only language that seems to have more code in them than the project itself. [11:34] Ubit Umarov: master does not even compile on some mono installs if you do not tell tools to use .net4.5 [11:34] Ubit Umarov: bc .net4.0 is no longer suported [11:35] Ubit Umarov: but that was a issue on some installs.. that did only install things for .net4.5 comp [11:35] Ubit Umarov: guess master does compile on mono5x using xbuild [11:36] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Win 10 complains for 4.6, likes 4.6.1 [11:36] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but it gets ~150 warning errors. I HATE THAT! [11:36] Sheera Khan: it would be nice to have a working description of the newer build environment [11:36] Sheera Khan: not one about mono 2.10^^ [11:36] Ubit Umarov: hmm mine does not complain about 4.6 [11:36] LaNani Sundara: i use VS 2017 on win 10 [11:36] Ubit Umarov: but win10 does like 4.7.x now :) [11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: get 3 warnings on proper mono version and .NET version on linux .. [11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: on httptests [11:38] Kayaker Magic: Most of the warnings are about linking multiple copies of object files, i.e. bugs in the makefile. [11:38] Misterblue Waves: we're probably supposed to change everything to '.netstandard2.0' [11:38] Ubit Umarov: yeah i did clean up some warnings on httptests [11:38] Kayaker Magic: The rest of the warnings are about variables set but never used. [11:39] LaNani Sundara: master sure has plenty warnings... unused variable here and whatever there [11:39] Ubit Umarov: hidding warnings is not a good idea.. some are really valid :) [11:39] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: TRue Mr Blue [11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yep most of those are gone in httptests [11:39] LaNani Sundara: :) nice clean up then [11:39] Ubit Umarov: 2 soon to think about .netstandard2.0 [11:39] Ubit Umarov: and that is a subset of 4.7.x [11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Core needs a upgraded dev box before can cleanly work current let alone future standards [11:40] Ubit Umarov: and actual code revison to really change a framework is .. a pain [11:40] Ubit Umarov: there is no backwards comp anymore [11:41] Ubit Umarov: at least on same things.. [11:41] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Good that people do experiment with current versions, avoids nasty surprises down the road [11:41] Ubit Umarov: and MS seems to had deleted all code migration informatiion from older versions [11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: There comes a time when in war(coding) you need to burn the bridges to keep the enemy from following you .. [11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: When master is compiled with mono 5.10 it spits out 52 warnings. A far cry from the days I remember seeing around 300 warnings. [11:42] LaNani Sundara: its 2018... time to stop worrying about win and linux and mono version from the previous century [11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ^^^^^ [11:43] Sheera Khan: Bill - the Klingon code warrior ;-) [11:43] Ubit Umarov: well i do like machines and code from last century.. but there is a point when we must change :( [11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: IMHO, a lot of the same people that scream that opensim is going nowhere are the same ones holding it back .. [11:43] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I see 138 warnings compiling the current master on mono 5.x, and the roslyn compilers [11:43] Ubit Umarov: well for any new users, what hold us if the LOOK [11:43] Ubit Umarov: this viewers rendering is getting outdated :( [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yep [11:44] LaNani Sundara: i am new, basicly, 0.9.1 was my first opensim version [11:44] LaNani Sundara: :D [11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( yes just seen a game i play upgrade to a new rendering engine :) ) [11:44] Ubit Umarov: uff dam good visual now on all games [11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: One of the reasons I forked httptests, was just to give Ubit a stroke, when he sees my changes ... [11:45] Ubit Umarov: of course my cpu and gpu does smoke :) [11:45] Ubit Umarov: gpu at 100% all its 2GB internal ram in use :) [11:46] Ubit Umarov: you forked to have your own funny crashs :p [11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hey I crash very rarely these days ... I have one sim that has been running for over a month and it is one of my vehicles sims that I abuse ... LOL [11:47] Ubit Umarov: ( but that new game was not devel by amateurs.. it took them at least one year to upgrade some 20 maps ( == regions ) ) [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Plus those games have usually a gig of preloaded resources, not everything streamed over the wire [11:48] Ubit Umarov: lol [11:48] Ubit Umarov: 30GB this one :) [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: haha [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Point proven [11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P [11:49] Ubit Umarov: sorry 38.8GB now [11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It is much easier to render "Pretty" if you know what you are going to need to render in advance .. [11:49] Ubit Umarov: and loading a region, my disk makes it freeze for a few seconds [11:50] Ubit Umarov: filling the 2GB of the gpu ram [11:50] Ubit Umarov: ppl now tells that to play games one needs to have ssd [11:50] Ubit Umarov: but well details unrelated to us.. [11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh, I misread the 2GB reference earlier. I thought Ubit was saying his computer only had 2GB of memory. [11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: That is also what a lot of people that talk about Opensimulator performance vs other games, is we stream EVERYTHING over the wire [11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: They just don't grasp that [11:51] Ubit Umarov: no andrew. its the GPU internal RAM .. it uses it all [11:51] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, yes. I did figure that out after I re-read the earlier comment. [11:51] Ubit Umarov: and using all the tricks in the book [11:52] Ubit Umarov: distance dependent terrain tesselation etc etc etc [11:52] Ubit Umarov: ie closer terrain as more vertices etc [11:52] Ubit Umarov: so any kid look to those games, will not stay here [11:53] Ubit Umarov: in fact even the last version was better than this :( [11:53] Ubit Umarov: since ll now has sansar.. not sure they will improve the rendering engine [11:53] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: We aren't likely to see a better rendering engine anytime soon. LL would be keeping something for Sansar/ [11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yeah but that is part of the issue, Opensimulator is not a "Game" it is a simulation, and primarily a social one at that, it is not a "run and gun" game .. [11:54] Ubit Umarov: does not matter its a game or not [11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I know [11:54] Ubit Umarov: look matters :( [11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: we are using 10 year old + opengl rendering in the viewers, not a ton the server side can do about that [11:55] Ubit Umarov: well and with skyrim you can have girls has you like [11:55] Ubit Umarov: err never mind :) [11:55] Ubit Umarov: ( skyrim has allows for mods with more advanced texturing and models than the stock one ) [11:56] Ubit Umarov flüstert: ( so ppl add special looking girls npcs etc to it :) ) [11:56] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Ubit, can you look at the last commit to master, just seems to delete a line, [11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we start losing people just a quick update about the birds module. [11:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right, but yet again, that is all client side ... with gigs of preloaded data, and a much better rendering engine, not much that can be done server side to fix that here ...  Would need a brand  new viewer with a new render engine .. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: errr [11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I made some more updates to it this past week. It is getting its settings properly now. Unfortunately, I also found another few issues with it. [11:57] Ubit Umarov: damm [11:58] Ubit Umarov: ok will fix it [11:58] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: kk [11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I may have to leave it for a while as I have some other projects to work on. I will send Jak a pull request to pick up my latest set of changes. [11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll also file an issue or two against my fork so to remind myself of one bug along with some other enhancement I want to make to the module. [12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Me speak english real good. :P Seem to be having some trouble typing today. :) [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last minute items? [12:01] Ubit Umarov: ok pushed the right source file this time [12:01] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: k Ubit [12:02] Kayaker Magic: I'm still warming up to submit a patch for the arc trig functions. Will bug Andrew for more help with that. [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, hey Misterblue. You were hiding behind the chat window I had open in my viewer. [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, np [12:03] Misterblue Waves: been lurking :) [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: That's a wrap for this weeks meeting. See you again next week. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: kay [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I had a machine crash again because Robust chewed up all the system memory. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: most likely il not accept such a patch [12:04] Ubit Umarov: those resolution issues should be handled on the scripts where and only where needed [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to get the machine up to mono 5 and see if the memory usage improves at all. [12:04] Ubit Umarov: code as is, just follows c# [12:06] Misterblue Waves: how is it this meeting ended up at Hurliman Plaza? [12:06] Ubit Umarov: well region had a rename also :) [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure. Ubit didn't like the lag at Wright Plaza so we wound up moving to Projet Secret. After that we wound up here. [12:06] Ubit Umarov: this is Project Secret renamed i think [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: The region completely changed its look from one week to the next if that is the case. [12:07] Ubit Umarov: still not the best for meetings.. but ok [12:07] Ubit Umarov: just no sense on having working meetings on a 35K prims region [12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps the only good region for you would be an empty region except for a few chairs. :) [12:08] Ubit Umarov: yeap almost yes [12:08] Ubit Umarov: we want ppl to came and not lose time downloading things [12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and really need a region with build and scripting, so if we need to test or demonstrate anything during the meetings , we have that ability .. .then just restore the region to defaults before the next [12:09] Ubit Umarov: yeap [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: The only items that take ages to rez tend to be these chairs behind me. [12:09] Ubit Umarov: the lighter the best [12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: We could look for a sandbox to hold the meeting. [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Is it so hard to find someone to keep a region up for the dev meetings? [12:10] Ubit Umarov: well if not for organization issues, we should to this on several grids also :) [12:10] Ubit Umarov: but just impossible to schedule [12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I suggested that a while back ubit, but as you say, nightmare to arrange [12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeap [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... you mean more than one meeting a week each in a different grid? [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the weekly meeting but on different grids [12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so it is a floating meeting [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: How would that cause a scheduling problem? [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem is for people to find out where it is being held on any given week. [12:12] Ubit Umarov: just summer time changes is a problem, imagine location also :) [12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: people show up late or in the wrong spot now even though it is always in the same place, imagine if it was in different places [12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I know. That's what I was thinking. [12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: have a static region here on OSGRID that has nothing but a hypergate to the current meeting location [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: We would need a device in a fixed location that points to the location for the meeting but that has its own headaches. [12:13] Misterblue Waves: it would be like one of those HG tours [12:13] Ubit Umarov: well if we had another machine, we could run our own region [12:13] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Imagine that, maybe even call the region "Dev Meeting" how complicated ... LOL [12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [12:13] Ubit Umarov: in fact that would be the best.. [12:14] Ubit Umarov: but even the main machine is a issue now :( [12:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I have offered 3 times to put up a perm region here for the dev meetings, not offering again [12:14] Ubit Umarov: well we are osgrid guests here.. so.. wel.. [12:15] Ubit Umarov: we did ask them for a region.. got this