Chat log from the meeting on 2010-01-26



[11:03] Sarvana Cherry is Online

[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: it lives!!!

[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: lol

[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: its alive again

[11:04] Entering god mode, level 255

[11:05] Pete Skysmith: hi everybody

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello

[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi, again..

[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Pete

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh scripts are still starting

[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: justin can better rebake, looks black for me

[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see justin black also

[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: this screen is sitting on my 4th monitor, so the avatar is fscked up

[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all

[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: lol 3 screens not enough ? :)

[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: my attachments do not work

[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: grrr

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: no - 4 screens is my minimum :)

[11:08] Adam Frisby: I was wondering why there was so many people logged in.

[11:08] Adam Frisby: I popped in to check it out, without realise it was a meeting day. =p

[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: yaay, no hair or boots... hello everyone :)

[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: hello snoopy, adam, adelle

[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh try rezzing your hair on the ground

[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi snoopy

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then reattach stuff

[11:09] Hiro Protagonist: hey everbodeh

[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi hiro

[11:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh, just lag i think

[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: seems like we are getting some kind of texture queue jam ups under load

[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: isn't it some ridiculous time in the morning over in Australia?

[11:10] Adam Frisby: 6:00AM

[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: not yet gone to bed or just got up?

[11:10] Hiro Protagonist: what is this thing you call 'bed'

[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:11] Adam Frisby: Yeah, I totally dont sleep.

[11:11] Adam Frisby: Been up since like 8PM yesterday

[11:11] Adam Frisby: Australia day fireworks woke me up

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't know about you folks but unfortunatley I need a good 7 or 8 hours - it's my weakness

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if i sleep 8 hours im ruined

[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: :)

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i might as well not get out of bed that day

[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: I need about seven but usually get closer to 5

[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 5-6 tops for me

[11:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: i thought a lack of sleep was an opensim core requirement?

[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but i usually do take a short afternoon nap

[11:12] Hiro Protagonist: lol

[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: not onl;y yours JCC

[11:12] OtakuMegane Desu:.

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'd like to take an afternoon nap too but I don't often get that luxury. Oh well

[11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: i usually make up for it at weekends

[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Adelle: I'm one of the few normal people ;)

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill get maybe 12-14 hours on a weekend hehe

[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya working from home has ruined me

[11:13] Melanie Milland doesn't sleep

[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: have the feeling JCC keeps a mirror in front of me.

[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: how so?

[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: i like a nap in the evening to, wel i need it

[11:14] Adam Frisby: so, anyone seen the video Rex put out of Naali in the last two days?

[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: got a link?

[11:15] Adam Frisby: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iiE66hY-RU

[11:15] Pete Skysmith: i didn't

[11:15] Adam Frisby: Naali is looking really, really impressive.

[11:15] Adam Frisby: I'm glad they begun implementing a standard GUI & application workflow.

[11:16] Adam Frisby: It looks nice, and also looks like some parts have had some forethought gone into how they work; like the communications manager (although I'd still tweak it.)

[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: looks nice

[11:16] Adam Frisby: The good news with Naali is it is apache 2, and they followed the same 'code taint' rules as opensim-core (6 months), so any opensim dev can safely work on it

[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: Andy Naali looks like some kind of zombie

[11:17] Adam Frisby: downside is it's Qt/C++, so it does require a more intensive build toolchain for windows users.

[11:17] Adam Frisby: although Linux users should be at home./

[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: does eclipse not solve the problem for windows ?

[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it builds/works under linux?

[11:18] Melanie Milland: it does

[11:18] Adam Frisby: Yeah it runs under Windows, Linux & mac

[11:18] Melanie Milland: still a couple of hiccups with keyboard input

[11:18] Melanie Milland: last time i checked

[11:18] Melanie Milland: but that is actively worked on

[11:18] Adam Frisby: Richardus: Qt requires a special precompiler called 'moc' (I think that is the right one)

[11:18] Adam Frisby: which has to be integrated into your build chain with visual studio et al.

[11:18] Melanie Milland: adam, that's part of the qt toolchain, yes

[11:19] Melanie Milland: qmake will create a VS makefile

[11:19] Melanie Milland: that you can import

[11:19] Adam Frisby: Great, I want to take a crack at the Naali code when the other half dozen things on my plate are off it.

[11:19] Melanie Milland: or just do an nmake build

[11:19] Adam Frisby: So yeah; soon there wont be much of an excuse behind "well we cant touch the viewer"

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe wont that be nice

[11:20] Adam Frisby: No kidding.

[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: We need something different anyway. There seems to only be so much you can do with the current engine.

[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya the trick is not loosing any of the current stuff too though

[11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: is LL also working on 3d meshes for avatars and objects?

[11:20] Adam Frisby: The current SL engine is opaque to us; we cant edit it -- which means feature extensions are crippled.

[11:20] Hiro Protagonist: it'll be nice to just not have to hear viewer devs complain about that anymore

[11:21] Adam Frisby: Snoopy: yes/no.

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: as long as the trade off is not too high

[11:21] Adam Frisby: LL said they still are working on it; but who knows when it will be shown to the public.

[11:21] Hiro Protagonist: honestly, I dont think it matters as much as it is widely held to

[11:21] Adam Frisby: Given they are busy working on "SL2" which has priority, might be a while.

[11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: ok

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: personally I dont think LL mesh support will look all that much differnt than their sculpty support either

[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i think its going to fall short of everyones expectations of what mesh can be

[11:21] Adam Frisby: I suspect LL mesh import will be 1998-era meshes

[11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: SL2? Great

[11:22] Adam Frisby: No shaders, no material scripts.

[11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh oh

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya

[11:22] Adam Frisby: Just very simple diffuse-mapped meshes.

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be sculpty 2.0

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly

[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: a viewer that can be adapted / have new extensions would be nice. then its easyer to fix bugs to.

[11:22] Adam Frisby: Certainly nothing with say mesh animation.

[11:22] Adam Frisby: deformability, shaders or anything fancy

[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: atleast initially

[11:22] Melanie Milland: tbh, i don't see the existing hardware handle that

[11:23] Melanie Milland: not at the density of SL

[11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: can the realxtend meshes be supported by standard opensim in the future - I mean like on some regions in osgrid?

[11:23] Melanie Milland: and density = money

[11:23] Adam Frisby: Melanie: well with meshes you need less objects to represent the same sscene.

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats why its going to basiclly be nothing more than Sculpty 2.0

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it will be more efficient than sculpt cause the files should be smaller

[11:23] Adam Frisby: Prims are artificially dense --- notice how prim counts on average dropped when sculpties came out.

[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: easier to transport

[11:23] Adam Frisby: It'll be the same thing.

[11:23] Adam Frisby: Megaprims help the situation immensely too

[11:23] Melanie Milland: i mean sim density per cpu

[11:23] Adam Frisby: LBSA plaza is only like 680 prims

[11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

[11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: meshes are not worse than many linked prims

[11:24] UUID Speaker: yukio chun: ea7aed24-6c49-6474-f519-bdb906a1fe77

[11:24] Melanie Milland: of they would do deformable meshes

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well you will have to make things phantom

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats all

[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: But LL makes a lot of their money off land, and one of the best tools to keep people buying more is the prim count

[11:24] Melanie Milland: the physics of it would mean 1 server = 1 sim

[11:24] Adam Frisby: Deformable meshes would be clientside I imagine

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are going to mesh it proper anyway

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: want to bet money their meshes colide as primitive shape?

[11:24] Adam Frisby: No real practical way to do network transmission of that at the current point in time.

[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: only a good simple userfriendly sculpt tool is missing

[11:24] Adam Frisby: Neb: or are phantom

[11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol

[11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: that would be bad

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: oh it will be that way

[11:24] Melanie Milland: it'll look shiny

[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt

[11:25] Melanie Milland: but be functionally lacking

[11:25] Melanie Milland: like all they do

[11:25] Adam Frisby: I'm more interested in the new global illumination model coming with meshes.

[11:25] Adam Frisby: That is much more interesting to me.

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya windlight is cool

[11:25] Adam Frisby: Of course, Naali has that now I think.

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but its highly unrealistic in terms of lighting

[11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: Naali has windlight?

[11:25] Adam Frisby: Nah, global illumination, or something similar.

[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Ogre has a windlight alternative

[11:25] Adam Frisby: Caelum

[11:26] Adam Frisby: http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/Caelum

[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Windlight always seemed fine to me, though a bit crude on some points.

[11:26] Snoopy Pfeffer: do they have voice as replacable module?

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not bad

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its just not realistic

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: at all

[11:26] Adam Frisby: But no, I mean global illumination as in ambient occlusion, etc.

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its very video gameish

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: nintendo type lighting

[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, light going through walls is probably the biggest problem lol

[11:26] Adam Frisby: Otaku: that is what global illumination fixes

[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: I figured

[11:26] Adam Frisby: It's a very significant change

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest problem for LL though is like melanie_T said

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 70% of their population still having crap hardware

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: that can barely play anything modern

[11:27] Adam Frisby: yup

[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: that looks kinda wicked

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its like XP era hardware

[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 2001'ish

[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: :)

[11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Well it wouldn't be so bad if the viewer made better use of resources :/

[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: I had a look at the latest version of the 3Di OpenViewer

[11:28] Adam Frisby: The SL viewer cannot be critiqued on performance honestly

[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: that can be integrated in a web page

[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: that is even worse lol

[11:28] Adam Frisby: It throws so many polygons at the video card it is stunning

[11:28] Melanie Milland: efficient resource usage and multiplatform support are mutually exclusive

[11:28] Adam Frisby: Very simple polygons mind you -- nothing with shaders/etc to process

[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: i know some peolple that run SL on 5-7 year old hardware. and then the complain about problems with building and lag

[11:28] Adam Frisby: But the sheer quantity is impressive.

[11:28] Melanie Milland: since you cen' be efficient on wondows without DX

[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno

[11:28] Melanie Milland: and that's unavailable anywhere else

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OpenGL is no worse on windows than linux

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: from my experience

[11:29] Adam Frisby: Neb; it is more than DX > OpenGL

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: not in video game land

[11:29] Melanie Milland: yes, but DX outperforms OGL on windows

[11:29] Adam Frisby: OGL is dead.

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt about that

[11:29] Melanie Milland: coding to DX means windows-only

[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: and now ? openDX ?

[11:29] Adam Frisby: Richardus: good luck.

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OGL is too driver dependant

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: thas the problem

[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its too dependant on hardware makers

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: to keep it updated

[11:30] Adam Frisby: Honestly, OpenGL is terrible - but there is no alternatives outside of Windows.

[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes

[11:30] Adam Frisby: Not just dependent on hardware makers to keep it up to date -- but also to support each others extensions.

[11:30] Melanie Milland: and as for hardware

[11:30] Melanie Milland: you can't expect gamer hardware

[11:30] Adam Frisby: which results in a mess of half-ass features that break depending on video card

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya its like putting prison gaurds in charge of the prison

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:30] Melanie Milland: not for something billed to be the Next Internet

[11:30] Adam Frisby: it's not just between manufacturers, but even individual cards.

[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: getting them to agree on extension support

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: Idk Melanie_T

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: sorry putting prsisoners in charge of gaurding prson i mean

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: dont work

[11:31] Melanie Milland: so whatever is done needs to run on the standard "utility PC"

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it wasnt that long agon most PCs didnt ship with eth connections

[11:31] Melanie Milland: and with the credit crunch biting deep

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: what is the Alternative to cross platform support though?

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: besides OGL?

[11:31] Melanie Milland: pcs are used 5+ years

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: is there anything?

[11:31] Adam Frisby: Neb: none.

[11:31] Adam Frisby: OGL is it.

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya i didnt think so

[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: Darkness.

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: 2D?

[11:31] Adam Frisby: You could probably write a software rasterizer. ;)

[11:32] Adam Frisby: but that'd likely suck.

[11:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: the performance of graphics cards should increase dramatically this year if the Nvideo CEO is right

[11:32] Adam Frisby: There is some hope re: hardware specs.

[11:32] Adam Frisby: Intel integrated chipsets no longer suck as much as they used to

[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: But the viewer isn't even using all the power higher-end stuff has now

[11:32] Adam Frisby: they are at least on-par with the lowest nvidia/ati offerings.

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: Intel has dropped integration

[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: aargh, then i have my card buyed to early. but new cards are anyway to expensive

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they threw in the towel

[11:32] Adam Frisby: They arent doing video at all anymore?

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: in favor of Nvidia

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: nope

[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: otaku, in dense SL area im still stuck with 25 fps or lower

[11:32] Adam Frisby: Well that is good to hear

[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they bagged the project

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

[11:33] Adam Frisby: That means we're at least dealing with low-end nV/ATI which isnt terrible.

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: here i get now 22fps

[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm even worse lol

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think Nvidia put up to much a stink

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: threatened to partner with Via

[11:33] Adam Frisby: I'm getting 13, but that is at 2560x1920 with 8xFSAA

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and stop alll support for Intel

[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i think intel caved

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: almost full hd here

[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: no filtering sofar i know

[11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow so low?

[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: But I have 1/3-1/2 CPU idle even now and FSAA/ani doesn't even touch fps so the GPU isn't even remotely strained otherwise. So wtf

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya im getting about 15fps here right now

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in 1920x1080

[11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: 10 fps for me hehe

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i seem to get low FPS when sitting though

[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: dont run it in ultra snoopy. its a frame killer

[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if i got up and started moving id get 20-30fps

[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: 4 fps lol but it's 1920x1440 with like 384 draw distance and all the goodies on.

[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: my cpu is doing almost nothing

[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: same here Otak

[11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: it runs on my slow windows laptop

[11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: my linux server is much better

[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: And ATI doesn't work right with VBO in the viewer so that doesn't help

[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i run amd cpu

[11:35] Hiro Protagonist: actually my draw and everything else is maxed out

[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: wow

[11:35] UUID Speaker: Frodo Diesel: cc9fe498-3369-1952-53d9-19cf2ce80e97

[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i try to stay around 20fps, else its terrible with movememnt

[11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I have PCIe 2.0 and a bunch of idle CPU time so I can't see it being an issue of bottlenecks getting stuff to GPU. Not in hardware at least.

[11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: what is the status of the ongoing opensim refactoring?

[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i think its just sl viewer that give lower framerate

[11:36] Adam Frisby: I think the current refactoring is near done isnt it?

[11:36] Adam Frisby: the ROBUST stuff anyway?

[11:36] Hiro Protagonist: Oooh good question

[11:37] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T?

[11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: I think many wait for it to be finished

[11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewer just isn't that efficient. Mch better than in the past, but not what it could be. *shrug*

[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: you would be supprised OtakuMegane, my previous CPU ran at about 50% and i got a lot less FPS, i recently upgraded CPU and it still runs at about 50% but i get lots more FPS

[11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: it would be good if all could continue to develop full speed forward :)

[11:38] Melanie Milland: it's very close

[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think the viewer could be throttling CPU to stop it consuming 100%

[11:38] Melanie Milland: i have to reimplement friends

[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: i wait with opensik upgrade, until there's a good version again ^^ :)

[11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: great Melanie :)

[11:38] Melanie Milland: and come up with a sane migration path for users

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: But I want to to use the resources it has. :/

[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[11:38] Melanie Milland: now i have a few days here

[11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes that is something many will like Melanie :)

[11:38] Hiro Protagonist: that latter one is probably the bigger challenge Mel

[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: it would be nice to have the choice :)

[11:38] Melanie Milland: before heading for London and the meetup

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: uhg ya the thought of this upcoming migration gives me the willies

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:39] Melanie Milland: on Sunday

[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: are there big bumps to expect when we have a new upgrade ?

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: im sure it will go well

[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I'm just gonna toss this out for an idea

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but the database landscape is going to change dramaticly

[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh boy, upgrade again

[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: we should run two grids, at least for a little while

[11:39] Melanie Milland: this upgrade will be raw and wild

[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: mellanie: Oh, I didn't know you were coming

[11:39] Adam Frisby: Yeah

[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: so, OAR's required !

[11:39] Adam Frisby: This is going to be a major upgrade

[11:39] Melanie Milland: it's a rocky one

[11:39] Adam Frisby: ala 0.3->0.4

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well dont worry everyone

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: our backup system is in place

[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: put a box with hardhat's on lbsa nebadon

[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: nothing will be lost

[11:39] Melanie Milland: and it will require manual cleanup

[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Got a summary of what it's bringing, exactly?

[11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh really?

[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't been keeping up very well

[11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: only of grids or also of regions?

[11:40] Melanie Milland: we are finally replacing the counterintuitive tables

[11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: at region level no manual work should be required

[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: architectural sanity at minimum Otaku

[11:40] Melanie Milland: users, appearance, friends, presence

[11:40] Melanie Milland: we're trying to make migrations

[11:40] Melanie Milland: but after verifying the conversion

[11:40] Melanie Milland: one might want to drop the old tables

[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes sure

[11:41] Melanie Milland: we will not be doing that automatically

[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah

[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok there will be an additional manual cleanup script?

[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, having the tables make a bit more sense would help lol

[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: to run that a bit later?

[11:41] Melanie Milland: no

[11:41] Melanie Milland: it'll be each admin for themselves

[11:41] Melanie Milland: we can't make your choices

[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: sure

[11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: well a script could also ask questions

[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: melanie you talk about region databases or user grid ones ?

[11:42] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 7467a47: 2010-01-11 22:52:05 +0000 (Unix/Mono)

[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald:.

[11:42] Melanie Milland: URM

[11:42] Melanie Milland: well, it will also affect regions

[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: dont use URM sofar i know

[11:42] Melanie Milland: if they're standalone/serverless

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: savest way is make backup from mysql + oar wipe region databases upgrade opensim and import oar back

[11:43] Melanie Milland: NO

[11:43] Melanie Milland: you WILL lose data if you do

[11:43] Melanie Milland: OAR is NOT complete

[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: then good to warn for that to other users

[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: in what way?

[11:44] Snoopy Pfeffer: I always use mysql backups

[11:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: the upgrade will make old OARs incompatible?

[11:44] Melanie Milland: OAR includes no script state, and omits some prim properties

[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: best to have mysql + oar backup

[11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Between oar and mysql dump it should grab everything that can be.

[11:44] Adam Frisby: ack

[11:44] Adam Frisby: back

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I believ script state does get in there, and it doesn't omit prim properties

[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: wb

[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: if it's serialized to inventory then it's also serialized in the oar

[11:45] Melanie Milland: justin, there are some properties that have been added since OAR was defined

[11:45] Melanie Milland: they are not part of inventory serialization

[11:45] Melanie Milland: so their inworld values are lost

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: like what?

[11:45] Melanie Milland: i'd have to read the code

[11:45] Snoopy Pfeffer: will anybody update OAR based on the new properties?

[11:45] Melanie Milland: but i know some went in recently

[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and there are XmlIgnore?

[11:45] Melanie Milland: we don't update the inventory serialization format often

[11:45] Melanie Milland: justin: Yes

[11:46] Melanie Milland: so, OAR has to be considered slightly lossy

[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, I guess that is something of a hole

[11:46] Melanie Milland: and can be used if it's ramifications are clear

[11:46] Hiro Protagonist: I guess inventory is similarly lossy?

[11:46] Melanie Milland: but SHOULD NOT be used as the primary vehicle for migrating between versions

[11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: that should be communicated on the web portal - because users have different expectations

[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: is diva going to write migration instructions for the changes needed when presence-refactor is merged in?

[11:47] Melanie Milland: hiro: yes

[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: users will use AOR for transfer between versions

[11:47] Melanie Milland: richardus: why should they?

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T: Inventory proper or just IAR>

[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: ?

[11:47] Melanie Milland: we are providing migrations

[11:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have never used OARs when updating simulators

[11:47] Melanie Milland: so people should NOT use OAR except to make backups in case migration fails

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, normal practice is to rely on the migrations, not to save our oars (or iars)

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: which dont' capture anything anyway

[11:48] Melanie Milland: your recommendation of OAR, wipe, reload is plain wrong

[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: i use them rarly. but some only know oar and i hope how to move the sqlite. mysql is still better choice

[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: if the migrations prove non-viable the people with pitchforks will be around

[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: i trust my mysql databases melanie

[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: anyone attemtping a major update/migration should backup their entire simulator anyway, the binary and DB

[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly the db - you would be crazy not too

[11:49] Melanie Milland: correct

[11:49] Orion Hax: live on the edge and just go for it

[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: JCC, there are a lot of crazy people ;)

[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: lmao

[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: but it happend in the past that the did not mkade enough backups or lost the db and used the oar.

[11:50] Melanie Milland: the procedure is backup - upgrade - verify

[11:50] Melanie Milland: not save - wipe - load

[11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes simply write that in the update instructions

[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: whynot Mel :3

[11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: it's stupid to not make backups

[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - if we clealy advertise before hand then they'v egot no excuse to get too het up

[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: yeah

[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: doesnt stop people tho

[11:51] Snoopy Pfeffer: then it is their fault ;)

[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: No, but if they were warned and instructed...

[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol

[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: just warn people, dont trust oar as only backup. and dont use it for migrations

[11:51] Hiro Protagonist: and that doesnt stop them complaining when it goees sour

[11:51] Adam Frisby: Yeah; if you are running backup routines; it is strongly recommended to just do a SQL dump

[11:51] Adam Frisby: If you have a SQL dump, that is guarunteed to be what OpenSim knows about your sim.

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, just doing the database is by far the easiest thing

[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't do OARs myself

[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: yes

[11:51] Mic Bowman: what about backing up script states?

[11:51] Adam Frisby: Hey Mic

[11:52] Mic Bowman: that has killed us several times

[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: For region stuff I just dump DB. When grid/asset stuff I do OAR/IAR as well

[11:52] Adam Frisby: I think those are in a seperate directory now?

[11:52] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Mic, wb

[11:52] Adam Frisby: Melanie should know

[11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: take a copy of the entire Bin folder, along with the DB backup, and you ahve evrything you need for a fast rollback

[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: backing up script states just a matter of moving the scriptengines folder?

[11:52] Mic Bowman: "fast" is relative

[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: i always install fresh opensim. also to have a quick fallback

[11:53] Hiro Protagonist: heh

[11:53] Melanie Milland: the script states are in ScriptEngines/ /*.state

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: heh I imagine Intel "fast" is really fast

[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe

[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i bet they all stand around and complain 'darn this is really slow' :P

[11:53] Hiro Protagonist: unless you're launch omfg number of regions and going out for golf while it starts up :p

[11:53] Mic Bowman: hey

[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: :P

[11:53] Mic Bowman: i resemble that remark

[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol

[11:54] Hiro Protagonist: LOL

[11:54] Melanie Milland: however, backing up the state files is not a suitable archival method for OAR, justin

[11:54] Mic Bowman: yes... you really CAN run 1024 regions in one simulator

[11:54] Melanie Milland: if that is what you do, you should revise it

[11:54] Mic Bowman: i just don't recommend it

[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: i never moved/backup the state files. maby i use scripts where it dont matter

[11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: will it be necessary that regions have a certain interface version to be allowed to reconnect to the grid?

[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: mleanie: It's probably done by accident. Why do you not recommend it, exactly?

[11:54] Melanie Milland: there is a Method on IScriptModule to obtain the dump

[11:54] Melanie Milland: it should be used

[11:54] Hiro Protagonist: that was pretty freaking amazing to read

[11:54] Melanie Milland: there is another method to put the data thus obtained back in place

[11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: actually you can run more.

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: alright. Clearly this needs work - especially if people are starting to document the shitty internal serializtions being used

[11:55] Melanie Milland: it should not be done on the file system because the file system location may change between revisions, or installs

[11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: I got 8100 sims on a single machine in '08.

[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: do you know what these methods are called?

[11:55] Adam Frisby: Using 32GB of memory & Win2K3 Server

[11:55] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol

[11:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: there have only ever been two scenarios I would use OAR for, backing up actual assets in case of loss on the asset server, or cloning a region

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: heh that was standalone though right?

[11:55] Mic Bowman: adam.. with ODE and Xengine etc... BAD deadlocks

[11:55] Adam Frisby: Yeah that was standalone

[11:55] Mic Bowman: no

[11:55] Mic Bowman: in scisim

[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think 1024 is the record for grid mode

[11:55] Melanie Milland: justin: GetXMLState, SetXMLState

[11:56] Mic Bowman: that's where it was running

[11:56] Snoopy Pfeffer: well we can increase the osgrid ranking by running such servers with thousands of regions ;)

[11:56] Melanie Milland: both on IScriptModule

[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: thx

[11:56] Melanie Milland: you need the itemID to call

[11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm only on ~150 regions total, and that's across 6 instances, mostly for convenience though.

[11:56] Melanie Milland: get returns a string, set takes one

[11:56] Mic Bowman: 1024 regions... but every users gets a 10x10 region view

[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: just a 64x64 mea region for fly sail and drive :))

[11:56] Mic Bowman: and that's what's killing the sims

[11:57] Mic Bowman: megaregions have some big problems with borders

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya child agents are going to be a major problem in megas that large

[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: hehe

[11:57] Melanie Milland: you mean with Borders

[11:57] Melanie Milland: :)

[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: im happy it runs fine for now on my server with 4 regions

[11:57] Mic Bowman: the neighbors computation is not really designed to have megaregion to megaregion exchanges

[11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw I see ghost agents in the air in the middle of regions more often again

[11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregions will be worked out eventually. They are still in very early stages really

[11:57] Mic Bowman: can't go south or west across borders well

[11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you also experience that?

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i see that for a long time on astro

[11:58] Melanie Milland: i've seen them, too

[11:58] Snoopy Pfeffer: it got worse since some weeks

[11:58] Melanie Milland: especially in OSG

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i imagine that depends on how busy your neighbors regions are

[11:58] Mic Bowman: we are currently just giving out a 10x10 grid of regions centered at the current agent

[11:58] Melanie Milland: i don't know what makes child agents visible

[11:58] Melanie Milland: but it should be looked into

[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i have snoopy as neighborn, so it pretty busy :D

[11:58] Mic Bowman: that gives the long view without (as many of ) the border problems

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: my movie theatre one day had like a dozen of the beastly looking NPC creatures

[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: all frozen in T poses

[11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: I see the ghosts moving arms and legs

[11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: depending on the animation

[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: thats about the only anomoly ive seen with ghosty type avatars myself

[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: my ghosts move heads and some other parts to

[12:00] Snoopy Pfeffer: there is still a problem with autoreturn and returning objects using the About Land window

[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects reappear afte each region restart

[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: that dont work for me snoopy

[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: They do?

[12:01] Mic Bowman: sorry to drop in and leave... just wanted to re-iterate something i said on the dev list earlier... it really is amazing how far opensim has come recently

[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: and autoreturn even creates ghost prims

[12:01] Mic Bowman: great work everyone!!!!

[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: yes, have seen that problem to, im told it is fixt after the big redesign

[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes

[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: I never seem to have issues with return/auto

[12:01] Adam Frisby: Mic: yeah, last 6 months, stability has really skyrocketed.

[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: thanks Mic :)

[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: my unpacking area is full of invisible nonexistent prims that block movements after a while

[12:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: Mic, is the mega mega region still running?

[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: :) ya its amazing how far things have come

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: on behalf of those who actually did the work

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bah, missed him

[12:02] Adam Frisby: We just updated our simhost demo region yesterday; the first time since October - total restarts between upgrade: 0.

[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: auto return seems to work fine. but return all object from 1 owner, after restart the where back

[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: I've returned thousands at once with little trouble.

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: heh yeah

[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: They go away and stay away

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: Kohala had incredible stability

[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I need to go too - bye everyone

[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: really Otaku?

[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: bye Justin

[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use Flotsam?

[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC

[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I stress test with phys and various stuff from time to time

[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin

[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Justin

[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: And yeah, flotsam

[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: see you justin, thanks for coming :)

[12:03] Melanie Milland: snoopy: asset cche is not relevant to this

[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: very strange

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have manually returned about 14,500 prims

[12:03] Melanie Milland: return happens in the background

[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: When I watch console, the return time does take a while though.

[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: it took a while but did it

[12:03] Melanie Milland: you need to give the sim time to do it

[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Maybe it's a speed/incomplete issue?

[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use a 64 bit server?

[12:03] Melanie Milland: if you return all objects for one user

[12:03] Melanie Milland: and then restart

[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: i run 32bit server

[12:03] Melanie Milland: that background processing will not yet have happened

[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope, 32. Don't get enough mem use to do 64 yet

[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: well it did the autoreturn hours before

[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe it is a 64 bit problem

[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: When I do thousands it can take 5-10 minutes in some cases to return all of them

[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i have seen on my region return problem with object from a user

[12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have noticed objects sometimes just re-appearing, just after a regular delete

[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: looks like that backgroud process does not succeed on my regions

[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah

[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw it is the same on my 32 bit servers

[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: can you return all objects of a certain user?

[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: using the about land window?

[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects also come back

[12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have done on the OSgrid sandboxes a few times

[12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I've done all the return methods, and they work.

[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: strange

[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: they rarely come back, unless the region is restarted fairly soon after the return

[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, now. Way back they had issues of course lol

[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I really have hours between the return and the restart

[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm

[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: but sometimes when I just delete objects from my own regions, it could be 3 or 4 days before a restart, and the odd object will return

[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: even days!

[12:06] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you think there is an error, be sure you have tested with master/trunk

[12:06] Melanie Milland: NOT with a numbered release

[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: its like they arent being purged from the database properly or something

[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes

[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep

[12:07] Melanie Milland: the last release we did was a while ago, as far as the codebase goes

[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Have you watched console while return is happening?

[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I have this problem since 1 years already!

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: not that closely

[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: it it was always the same

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: its a rare occurance on my own regions, so i havent really bothered

[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to hit the virtual bricks y

[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: 'aal

[12:07] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you use a release, e.g. 0.6.8, expect issues

[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: It spits out a line for every object then tells you when it's finished. Good for seeing if the process is disrupted

[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well for me it always fails

[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: catch ya soon hiro :)

[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: no no

[12:08] Hiro Protagonist: catch ya next time :)

[12:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: I use trunk