Chat log from the meeting on 2010-08-24

[09:49] Frank Northmead is Online [09:50] Mike Schaefer is Offline [09:50] Lani Global is Online [09:53] Richardus Raymaker is Online [09:54] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 116bcb2: 2010-08-21 17:51:55 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [09:57] Penny Lane is Online [09:57] Bri Hasp: G'morn grey peeps [09:58] Entering god mode, level 255 [09:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello [09:59] Bri Hasp: there you rez'd Neb [09:59] Nebadon Izumi: he ya only person i see grey at the moment is Richardus [10:00] Richardus Raymaker: hi all [10:00] Penny Lane: Hey Neb, Rich, Bri :-) [10:00]  Bri Hasp: ciao [10:00]  Adelle Fitzgerald: hi all [10:00]  Richardus Raymaker: sommebody know if the cpu lock is fixable. sometimes it jumps to high cpu [10:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello [10:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon [10:00]  Penny Lane: Hi Adelle, Juicy, and anyone I can't see yet :-) [10:01] Richardus Raymaker: adella, penny, bri, juicy [10:01] Bri Hasp: am too blonde .. don't understand Rich [10:01] Juicy Babii: hellos [10:02] Richardus Raymaker: smetimes a region jumps to 300% cpu and drops to 0fps dead mode. [10:02] Bri Hasp: ohhh [10:02] Justin Clark-Casey is Online [10:02] Bri Hasp: sounds lika script [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: possible. but then its stuck and crashed [10:03] Bri Hasp: I stay at 2 % max [10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [10:03] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hi nebadon, richardus, folks [10:03] Bri Hasp: g'morn JCC [10:04] Richardus Raymaker: 300% cpu usage simfp 0. happens last time more [10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: morning - it's evening donthcaknow :) [10:04]  Penny Lane: Hi Justin [10:04]  Bri Hasp: hehe PDT here [10:06]  Penny Lane: Using your localtime greeting when in VW makes no sense, it's like going on holiday to a foreign country and sticking to your timezone back home :-) [10:06] Bri Hasp: but I do see a swing up to about 20% on startup Rich they drops to 1 [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I see you are an immersionist, Penny :) [10:06]  Penny Lane: Indeed, JCC :-) [10:07] Bri Hasp: then ^ [10:08] Bri Hasp: thats on my 20x mega on Net [10:08] Juicy Babii tries to figure out maths... 4 x 5 = 20? [10:08] Richardus Raymaker: Not found time to play more with .net [10:08] Penny Lane: Bandwidth's dropped to 2 Kbps, is region in trouble? Or optimization working wonderfully? :P [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I have a vw of approx 200kbps coming down [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: er, bandwidth, not vw [10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:10] Penny Lane: Oh, it's shot up to 400 Kbps. I guess it was just taking a rest :P [10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya might just be hesitating when people log in [10:10]  Bri Hasp: yep Juicy should have typed 4x5 [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I tried region crossings on opensim master and I was impressed by just how much smoother it was, at least on standalone [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: seems much smoother than 0.6.9 [10:11] Bri Hasp: yep.. sux here compared to old days [10:11] Mike Schaefer is Online [10:12] Richardus Raymaker: i wish lbsa where on windows for a while. good to compare. i know how it runs uidner linux. [10:12] Bri Hasp: ducking .. best decision i ever made was to dump mono [10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: baaaaah :) [10:13]  Richardus Raymaker: i go figure that out myself on sempron with 1GB and win2008server trail :P [10:14]  Juicy Babii: what, an open source implementation of a Microsoft attempt to re-invent Java isn't smooth and fast?! [10:14]  Bri Hasp: R8 on net 4 here [10:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: so, anything up this week? I imagine perhaps not much with lots of people still on 0.6.9 [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: we got search working again sorta [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: places search anyway [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: on 0.6.9 and 0.7 [10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: the ossearch module [10:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool [10:15]  Bri Hasp: well trunk 7 as my standy is sweet with TPV 2 testing shadows n moap [10:15]  Penny Lane: When is OSgrid expecting to move to 0.7? Long way off still? [10:16]  Nebadon Izumi: I wouldnt say long way off [10:16]  Nebadon Izumi: were testing it, but there has been lots of problems [10:16] Bri Hasp: may take it to a WIFI [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: cant say id be comfortable switching just yet [10:16] Justin Clark-Casey finds the Wright Plaza freebie mall [10:16] Nebadon Izumi: were getting closer though [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: still working on the new web interface too [10:17] Bri Hasp: btw .. ty ty ty for the moap and textures [10:17] Penny Lane: Dunno how widespread it is, but I've heard a lot of people say they're interested in 0.7 for the LightShare stuff. [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: seem to be profusion of interfaces suddenly. wifi, simiangrid + osgrid too? [10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: web interfaces that is [10:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: thanks :) [10:17]  Richardus Raymaker: im afraid i lost the groups module and profiles url for 0.7 :( [10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya wifi is good though I wonder how well it would scale [10:18] Bri Hasp: moap will really help is my feeling [10:18] Richardus Raymaker: does somebody have it [10:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yeah, I think it's another brick in the wall - another general facilitiy that people can find use for [10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: though I do wonder why it hasn't found much more obvious use on the linden grid [10:19] Bri Hasp: shove chores off to my LAMP server leave more for the instance [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: I think because everyone hates SL2 viewer [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol [10:19] Juicy Babii nods [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: i know i sure dont like it [10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: moap isnt enough to make me want to use SL2 [10:19] Richardus Raymaker: No everybody hates the SL2 GUI [10:19] Mojito Sorbet: Creators tend to avoid technologies that only a fraction of the customer base is using [10:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Pretty much, yeah [10:19] Nebadon Izumi: nor is shadows [10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't mind the SL2 gui mostly, but clearly I'm in aminority :) [10:19]  Bri Hasp: kirsten has changed it a lot Neb.. keep trying [10:20]  Mojito Sorbet: The only thing I have seen getting pickled up is use of transparency in shoes [10:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: true, though for some uses (e.g. education, training) you could mandate everyone use a viewer 2 [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i feel totally lost in it [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: im still using hippo [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: I just find the GUI ridiculously clunky and screen-hogging [10:20]  Mojito Sorbet: If you were doing RP sword fighting, you would absolutley hate V2 [10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll probably keep using hippo until meshes [10:20]  Richardus Raymaker: waiting for sl2 viewer with normal interface [10:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: meshes will be very interesting [10:21]  Bri Hasp: sighs.. took me a month to get comfy in v2 [10:21] Richardus Raymaker: imprudence here [10:21] OtakuMegane Desu: I never got comfy. Tried it for a couple days, then deleted it :P [10:21] Lani Global: Tekstuff Emerald here. [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: hehe. lol otake my biggest step and loast one in sl2. 100 meters flying. more is not possible [10:22] Bri Hasp: I expect in a year.. 1.2x will be history in SL [10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Well obviously. 1.2 is getting pretty old [10:22] Richardus Raymaker: then the really need to have a good replacement. or.... [10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: Perhaps the other TPVs will end up reskinning viewer 2, following kirsten's lead [10:22] Dave Coyle is Online [10:22] Nebadon Izumi: i'll have to try kirstens again [10:23] Richardus Raymaker: url ? [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: for some reason Antialiasing never works for me in her viewer [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: somethings always broken in her viewer for me [10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont recall it ever working 100% for me [10:23]  Bri Hasp: YEP kirsten default is my favvy [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: screenshots look very good, though I haven't tried it myself [10:23] Nebadon Izumi: hello Stefan [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's the only TPV currently based on viewer 2 code [10:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hey stefan [10:23] OtakuMegane Desu: I've just settled on Imprudence. Does what I need, can avoid the silly building limits and seems to make better use of CPU. [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya i use Snowglobe in SL [10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: Snowglobe 1.2 [10:24] Bri Hasp: the shadowing for eye candy in 0.7 is lovely [10:24] Bri Hasp: follows the sun perfectly [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: the only shadowviewer that ever worked for me is Boylanes [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: a really old one [10:24] Lani Global: Question: Is the "Return Objects to Resident" borked in Estate and Parcel managment menu? Is it borked for certian versions of OS, or is it due to platform (win/linux/mysqlite,etc) ? [10:24] Mojito Sorbet: Beware of Kirsten's screenshots. You can't get those glorious images and still be abler to walk aroundf, unless you have freon-cooled gfx cards [10:24] Nebadon Izumi: Kirstens viewer whenever i turn on shadows everything goes rainbow [10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: mojito: good point [10:25] Bri Hasp: haha I only have a sahbby 295 [10:25] Mojito Sorbet: Kirsten's viewer is optimized for photography, not every-day use [10:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya very few people will be able to use shadows [10:25] Mojito Sorbet: Unless you turn down all the quality knobs [10:25] Bri Hasp: shabby ^ [10:25] Justin Clark-Casey: lani: don't know, I'm afraid [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: problem is OpenGL sucks at doing shadows [10:26] Nebadon Izumi: in realtime anyway [10:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Can also depend on version. [10:26] Lani Global: i'm doing research on the Return Objects to Resident problem... I will be reporting on Mantis about it [10:26] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, intressting. i can set shadow in imprudence. buut my framerate drops to freezing. (ultr is alrewady to heavy fro my Cpu [10:26] OtakuMegane Desu: I don't think the viewer is exactly built for OpenGL 3.0 or anything lol [10:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats typical Richardus [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: i think thats why SL is not really pursuing shadows [10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: the code is there but it will probably never be a default setting [10:27]  Bri Hasp: surprised a video head like you won't try Neb:) [10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i have tried it, its terrible [10:27] Richardus Raymaker: ultra made drops below 20fps to :( no shadows [10:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: lani: cool - thanks. I presume you've tried it in the latest master code? [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant get shadows to work in any of the current viewers [10:28]  Penny Lane: Viewers will change dramatically I feel if Opensim manages to change policy on LL-based viewers --- viewers could explode with special Opensim features. Any news on that yet? [10:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: Patience lol [10:28]  Penny Lane: Hehe [10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i tried kirstens like a month ago, i couldnt get shadows to work in that either [10:28]  Penny Lane is impatient [10:28]  Lani Global: I will be trying Return Objects in as many versions as possible, [10:28]  Richardus Raymaker: whoo [10:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: To some extent, the viewer developers have to push as well [10:28]  Bri Hasp: hmmm makes note to remind you on graphic card deals [10:29] Richardus Raymaker: downloading kirsten now [10:29] Nebadon Izumi: if i have to buy a new video card for shadows, its a failure [10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, osgrid should find a graphics card sponsor ;) [10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: buying a new video card means i have to buy a new power supply too [10:30]  Bri Hasp: +1 for that idea [10:30]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well, it sucks but hardly a failure lol. [10:30]  Lani Global: i bought a 750W power supply to enable my new vid card [10:30]  Richardus Raymaker: and what follows nebadon ? :) [10:30] Bri Hasp: grab an i7 980 too [10:30] Nebadon Izumi: well considering how few people in SL would actually buy new computer for SL to me its a failure [10:30] Richardus Raymaker: well, that sounds nice to get I7 [10:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe we just don' thave the killer app yet - people have been known to upgrade their hardware for that [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya shadows isnt that feature [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: its not that cool [10:31] Lani Global: only serious "gamers" and inworlders would build up a computer to do it [10:31]  OtakuMegane Desu: It's a feature. If you can't run it and don't want/can't upgrade then don't. [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: really every game i own, the 1st thing i do is shut off shadows [10:31] Nebadon Izumi: cause all it does is reduce framerate [10:31] Bri Hasp: also autocad and photoshop rock with the hardware [10:31] Richardus Raymaker: i would be happy if i can run ultra with 30fps. 3d worlds anyway not really smooth in some directions [10:32] Lani Global: i was able to justify the expense due to my business autocad use :) [10:32]  Mojito Sorbet: When my last video card failed, and I had to get a new one, I re-evaluated my entire power budget. Ended up putting in a new 500w PSU [10:32]  Mojito Sorbet: You do not want to be running a PSU at 80% of capacity [10:32]  Mojito Sorbet: STay around 50% [10:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya right now i have a 450watt power supply [10:32]  Bri Hasp: I am + 1 kw [10:32]  OtakuMegane Desu: I built my system from the start for future-proofing [10:32]  Mojito Sorbet: Especially if you are in a warm climate with poor air conditioning [10:32]  Richardus Raymaker: as long viewers are single core it can never get the max out of system [10:33]  Penny Lane: Heh. Sex + gambling, that'll bring the crowds in. Add in botnet functionality and it's a natural fit for Emerald. Opensim will be famous!! ;-) [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: i think throwing hardware at problems is the wrong solution [10:33] Nebadon Izumi: heh [10:33] Bri Hasp: but is the easiest [10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Only to a point [10:33] Lani Global: funny to think of all the "green environmental" movement happenign simultaneously with "overclocked video with 3 million shaders" movement [10:33] Mojito Sorbet: Cinsider this - the human eye only sees great detail in the center of where you are looking. [10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: hardware is often cheaper than brain power [10:33] Richardus Raymaker: maby nice to throw on problems, if you have old hardware and ae frustrated :P [10:33] Mojito Sorbet: But the ocmputer does not know WHERE you ar elooking, so has ot render the whole thing at max quality [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya my computer is pretty new [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: core2quad 2.83ghz with 8gb ram and Nvidia 250GTS [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: and shadows i get like 3fps [10:34] Nebadon Izumi: soo ya = UBERFAIL! [10:34] Mojito Sorbet: The limitation is in the low level drivers for these video cards. They force a single-threwaded appraoch [10:34] Richardus Raymaker: amd 940x4 nvidia275 8GB. still ultra sucks [10:35] OtakuMegane Desu: What framerate do you get? [10:35] Richardus Raymaker: ok 8GB system memory :) [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem is OpenGL if you ask me [10:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Shadows in DirectX are like 1000 times more efficient [10:35]  Mojito Sorbet: OpenGL was specified by the hardware makers [10:35]  Mojito Sorbet: LoweST cOMMON dENOMINATOR [10:36]  Mojito Sorbet: Oop [10:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: The thing is, unless you can convince Microshit to release DirectX for something other than windows, it's not even a conversation. [10:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: OpenGL is what we have [10:36]  Bri Hasp: do you think opensim would go directx? [10:36]  Mojito Sorbet: So, who writes OpenGL? [10:36]  Bri Hasp: no [10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: servers dont use directx or opengl [10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: so no [10:36]  Mojito Sorbet: If the hardware actually CAN go faster, why can't OpenGL take advabtage of it? [10:36]  Lani Global is Offline [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no way on earth opensim could use directx [10:37] Mojito Sorbet: OpenGL/DirectX is a viewer-side issue [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: OpenGL was not created as a Game Engine [10:37] Nebadon Izumi: its not optimized as such really [10:37] Mojito Sorbet: For what then ? Staic architectural rendering? [10:37] Mojito Sorbet: STatic [10:37] Dahlia Trimble: hi :) [10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya non realtime rendering [10:37]  Penny Lane: Opensim could use OpenCL on graphics cards though, not OpenGL [10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia [10:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: Virtual Worlds like this don't really fit current game engines anyway. They're far too dynamic [10:38]  Dahlia Trimble: oh Stefan is here :) [10:38] Mojito Sorbet: The One Big Loop approach to rendering is a huge bottleneck [10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Most games 99% of everything is precronstructed and static, even when you "alter" the landscape with explosions or something it's all planned beforehand. [10:38] Mojito Sorbet: The experimental viewer I am working on multithreads EVERYTHING. Except that actual OpenGL calls [10:39] OtakuMegane Desu: SL and Opensim are anything but static and predictable [10:39] Dahlia Trimble: Idealist threaded a lot of stuff [10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: virtual worlds are to games as the web is to a traditional 2d application [10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: DirectX might improve some things but honestly I don't think you'd get that much more out of it, especially for the work in rewriting the rendering engine.. And you would cut off all Linux and OS X users [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya i only mean in the terms of rendering stuff [10:40] Bri Hasp: is kinda like the discussion on CPU based physics [10:40] Nebadon Izumi: not that its a game [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: OpenGL for one is a lot harder to program, not saying we should switch, just that DirectX is better at shadows [10:41] Nebadon Izumi: alot better [10:41] Dahlia Trimble: problem I have with threads is cleaning them up when a crash occurs, or stopping them when a user closes a browser tab (for browser based viewers) [10:42] Dahlia Trimble: tey tend to not want to go away [10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. But changing rendering engines and cutting off a few percent of users just to add shadows is even worse than upgrading your computer just to run them lol [10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya, its a no win situation either way [10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Unless MS opens up DirectX, it's pretty much a dead argumenet anyway, short of someone wanting to construct their own viewer around it. [10:43] Nebadon Izumi: how is your Unity viewer going dahlia, have you made any progress on that, or are you even working on it anymore? [10:43] Dahlia Trimble: and browsers get really upset when you leave threads running :( [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: Unity3D hates my video card [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [10:43]  OtakuMegane Desu: Resolve the crappy threading structure of the current viewer would help a lot. [10:43]  Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, I'm working on one for a client so my personal one has been on hold since January [10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: sucks, i cant get anything to render properly [10:43]  Richardus Raymaker: its bad to focus only on MS, apple is storming to the front to :) and people on apple have already problems to run viewers. (shame) [10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: It's multi-threaded, but then it crams the multi-thread into a single thread. :/ [10:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello everyone. My PDA decided not to beep at me as a reminder of the meeting like it was supposed to do. [10:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Never figured that one out. [10:44] Penny Lane: JCC: game engines used in game clients and 3D engines used in VW clients are very similar, it's the content that is different, because game content is so highly optimized just for the game. Architecture and concurrency are very similar. [10:45] OtakuMegane Desu: So in scenes like this one, I have one core pegged to nearly 100% and the other three are twiddling their thumbs in utter boredom., :) [10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: Bri what kind of framerates do you get with Shadows enabled in SL ? [10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: that seems to me a big difference though. [10:45]  Dahlia Trimble: coroutines are nice but can be difficult to work with and dont work at all for a lot of stucc [10:45]  Dahlia Trimble: *stuff [10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm farfroman expert on the client-side aspects of either games or virtual environments [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: the viewer shouldnt really ever need 100% cpu though [10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: if the GPu is doing its job [10:46]  OtakuMegane Desu: True [10:46]  Bri Hasp: about 20 [10:46]  Dahlia Trimble: it often doesnt, unless you run unconstrained [10:46]  Bri Hasp: 60 when off [10:46]  Richardus Raymaker: unconstrained ??? [10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: In some scenes, usually more3 complex or changing ones Imprudence at least actually splits out to all 4 cores and runs between 25%-40% [10:47] Dahlia Trimble: 30 FPS is pretty good, few people will notice faster [10:47] OtakuMegane Desu: In stable, unchaning ones like this meeting it all pegs into a single core though [10:47] Penny Lane: JCC: aye, makes a very large difference in practice. But *in theory* VW content could be heavily processed too, since most of our junk doesn't change at all from day to day. [10:47] Bri Hasp: yeah 20 is my low [10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: yes - you think tjhere's still room for improved cachingon the client side? [10:48] Richardus Raymaker: linux shgows pretty nice load on all cores [10:48] Dahlia Trimble: limiting FPS to 30 can save a lot of CPU but it's hard to get a timer precise enough to limit it [10:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm typing on a keyboard where the sapce key is not working welll :) [10:49]  OtakuMegane Desu: Personally, if it'll improve the framerate, I expect an application to utilize most or all available resources. [10:49]  Richardus Raymaker: microsoft 600 keyboard ? mine broke last time under warranty to justin [10:50]  Dahlia Trimble: why have frame rates of 1000 if you really cant see any improvement? [10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: nah, my laptop keyboard. This is the same laptop I ripped apart when I spilt a drink into it a coupleof months ago. Keyboard has never been the same [10:50]  OtakuMegane Desu: 100, no. But Going from 10 to 20 or 30 is helpful [10:50]  Richardus Raymaker: aha. but it still runs ! [10:50]  OtakuMegane Desu: 1000* [10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, just about :) [10:51]  Richardus Raymaker whispers: try to find a 2e hand laptop for a few buck with right keyboard ? [10:51]  Dahlia Trimble: 30 is nice, 60 is probably a practical maximum [10:51]  OtakuMegane Desu: Depends on your monitor [10:51]  Penny Lane: JCC: caching that works (and interest lists!) will reduce lag further, but mostly what's needed is better recompiling of the scenegraph I think. When a user-programmable open-source game like Sauerbraten runs at 200 FPS on the same machine that runs SL at 5 FPS, you know something is badly wrong in the rendering department. [10:51]  Richardus Raymaker: 25 here now [10:51]  OtakuMegane Desu: Lower end LCDs probably cap around 60. Higher end should be able to go a bit higher. CRTs can go into the low 100s [10:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: anybody have any other opensim topics, as we have about 10 mins left? [10:51] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think the human eye can see more than like 70-80fps [10:52] Bri Hasp: paste Google phone link to JCC oops they went outa business :( [10:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: It can discern a lot more than that, neb [10:52]  Snoopy Pfeffer is Offline [10:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: It's diminishing returns, but it can do it [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: no [10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: 72hz is the max we can see [10:52]  Bri Hasp: with Vodka Neb? [10:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: Then why does 72Hz on a CRT give me a headache but 85 doesn't? [10:52]  Richardus Raymaker: how's opensim 07 ? [10:53]  Richardus Raymaker: 0.7 [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: because its a reaction with lights in the room [10:53]  Bri Hasp: 0 [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: lightbulbs also flicker at around 70-75hz [10:53]  Penny Lane: Neb: indeed, the goal isn't FPS above 60 or so, but the fact that Sauerbraten can run at that speed shows that a lot of optimization is possible even when content is modifiable in-world (as it is in that game --- built-in octree editor) [10:53] Dahlia Trimble: speaking of OpenSim, I''m trying to see if it's practical to piggyback another protocol on the same UDP port as LLUDP without disrupting too much [10:53] Bri Hasp: 0.7 is wonderful for me and moap [10:53] OtakuMegane Desu: What about the difference from 85 to 90 or 100? [10:53] Nebadon Izumi: so when you have 2 sources that flicker at similar rates it tweaks your eyes out [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: opensim 0.7 seems okay, though I'm still not convinved about the migration between 0.6.9 and 0.7 [10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: interesting :) [10:53]  Nebadon Izumi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate [10:53]  Dahlia Trimble: ya Im not there yet ;) [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I tried it not long ago and my inventory seemed to get lost [10:54] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 116bcb2: 2010-08-21 17:51:55 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: its because the light in the room cancels some of it out Otaku [10:54] Penny Lane: Why on the same port? That's asking for trouble :P [10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: not using the GenericMessage? [10:54] Nebadon Izumi: flourescent bulbs are the worst [10:54] Dahlia Trimble: why not ;) [10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: they flicker at exactly 72hz [10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia loves trouble [10:54]  Dahlia Trimble: no,different client stack running in parallel [10:55]  Penny Lane: Dahlia: because then the protocol handler has the problem of distinguishing packets belonging to one protocol from those of another [10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why they appear solid to us [10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: Penny, yep, we use circuitCode for that [10:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess libomv is working out which packets are which [10:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: as long as libomv doesn't barf on packets it can't parse... [10:55]  Juicy Babii lost inventory coming back here. Oh the baldness of it all! [10:56]  Justin Clark-Casey grins [10:56]  OtakuMegane Desu: All I know is, I can see the differences in framerates even up to around 100. Whether we can actually detect individual frames that high or not, it still looks better [10:56] Richardus Raymaker: if the terrain is empty you get nice framerates :)) [10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya not everyone is the same [10:56] Dahlia Trimble: interesting.. what is your monitor frame rate? [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: but techincally we can only dicern so much change [10:57] Bri Hasp: hehe is why sailing is so fun.. empty regions [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: all flat panels are 60fps [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: i assume your talking about a tube [10:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Mine is 85Hz right now [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: sure you can set 85 but most flat panels have a max of 60fps [10:57] Nebadon Izumi: fps and hertz are the same thing [10:57] OtakuMegane Desu: I has no LCD :P [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya on a tube it can make a difference because of the lightbulbs in the room [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: even sun light [10:58] Bri Hasp: nvidia 3D needs 120hz [10:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah [10:58] OtakuMegane Desu: A CRT can actually display that higher framerate [10:58] OtakuMegane Desu: And it DOES look better [10:58] Nebadon Izumi: yes but there is a technical reason for 120 hz with 3d [10:58] Dahlia Trimble: you mean 120 for stereo? [10:58] Mojito Sorbet: Incandescent bulbs can not flicker that fast. But phosphor can [10:58] Nebadon Izumi whispers: your only seeing 50% at any moment in 3D [10:59] Richardus Raymaker: 3D flickers [10:59] OtakuMegane Desu: LCDs though actually don't have a framerate at all. [10:59] Richardus Raymaker: with the 3D bril [10:59] Dahlia Trimble: I only see 50% anyway, I have a bad eye [10:59] Bri Hasp: stereo yes.. with flicky glasses [10:59] OtakuMegane Desu: It changes individual pixels as needed but doesn't redraw the screen [10:59] Mojito Sorbet: 3D TVs have to crank the brightness up all the way, because you ar eonly seeing half of it [10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ya [10:59]  Mojito Sorbet: Which really messes up the gamma curves [11:00] XO XAL: hello evi [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: those 3D screens give me a headache [11:00] Evi Abbot: Hi XO [11:00]  Penny Lane: The issue isn't just frame rate btw, but also object update lag. You could be watching at 50 FPS frame rate but a moving object only updates itself once a second or so, so it looks aweful even at 50 FPS. [11:00] OtakuMegane Desu: LCDs you watch the response time [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: i saw Clash of the Titans in 3D at theatre, i didnt enjoy it [11:00]  XO XAL: how are you? [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: too flickery [11:00] Bri Hasp: hmm back to Vodka [11:00] Evi Abbot: fine, yourself [11:00] XO XAL: fine to [11:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: Which actually can be far faster than even CRTs achieved [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I'll leave you guys to trash it all out - I need to get back to work [11:00] XO XAL: long tim eago we met [11:00] Richardus Raymaker: 3D tv, expensive and useless. and do you sit the whole time with something on your head ? [11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: right Penny [11:00] Nebadon Izumi: see you Justin [11:00] Evi Abbot: yes i remember [11:01] Bri Hasp: ciao.. n ty for moap [11:01] Nebadon Izumi: man hour flew by [11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin [11:01] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: you're welcome, bri [11:01] XO XAL: how is your sim now [11:01] Evi Abbot: very different [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey waves [11:01] Evi Abbot: want to see it? [11:01] Penny Lane: Machinma is suffering a lot from object update lag, even when rendered at high speed. We don't mind too much when seen live, but watching it as a video looks really bad. [11:01] OtakuMegane Desu: In any case, I don't think many people even get 30 fps in SL/OS so regardless of limits and such, there's a lot of room for improvement [11:01] XO XAL: yes [11:01] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline [11:01] Evi Abbot: k let me tp you [11:01] XO XAL: fine [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya i doubt it in SL [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: SL still has a lot of old hardware connecting [11:02] Richardus Raymaker: i hear enoufg that only have 7fps :O [11:02] Bri Hasp: wow [11:02] Nebadon Izumi: though settings play a big factor [11:02] Dahlia Trimble: ya need a good GPU to get high FPS with SL content [11:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Watching this meeting I'm getting about 10 [11:02] OtakuMegane Desu: But that's with prettyy high settings [11:03] Dahlia Trimble: it''s all the textures that do it too [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: im getting about 18-25fps [11:03] Nebadon Izumi: depending on which direction im facing [11:03] Bri Hasp: same here Neb [11:03] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm looking towards the opening behind Dahlia [11:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Look down to the floor and it jumps to 25+ [11:03] Penny Lane reparses that line [11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol [11:04] Dahlia Trimble: if you want good fps, use very few textures [11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: If I zoom out to an overview of Wright I'm usually in the 11-13 range [11:04] Richardus Raymaker: behind otaku 25fps [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: if you turn off Water Reflections it will probably jump way up [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: water reflections is such a waste [11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: But I liek replections D: [11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its cool but not at the cost of 1/2 your framerate [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Well for me losing some framerate for all the pretty stuff is worth it [11:05]  OtakuMegane Desu: Depends on preference [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: My other video card (not in use right now) gave me frame rates of around 50 to 60 [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: oh i run in high mode. [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: 200 meter view [11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm in Ultra with 256 and fairly high LODs [11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Basically everything on max [11:06] Dahlia Trimble: gotta run, bye all :) [11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Dahlia [11:06]  OtakuMegane Desu: Bye [11:06]  Bri Hasp: ciao dahlia [11:07]  Bri Hasp: tc [11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: Before everyone disappears I have a quick question related to search. [11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: 20fps in ultra with 256 meters here [11:07]  OtakuMegane Desu: What card you say you had? [11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: Nvidia 275 i think GT [11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: If search was to include objects, should the search results be based on object name only or should search include a check of object description? [11:07]  OtakuMegane Desu: That's why. I'm on a GTS 250. Whole class down from the 275 [11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a 250GTS [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: actually teh 250 and 275 are same [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its just the 275 is clocked higher speeds [11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: otherwise its the same GPu [11:08] Penny Lane: What's the state of HTTP Textures in Opensim currently? SL saw such a terrific improvement when HTTP Textures were enabled. [11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Nvidia_graphics_processing_units#GeForce_200_Series [11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: The 260 and up are entirely different cores [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: infact teh 8800 and teh 275 are same chipset [11:09] OtakuMegane Desu: GTS 250 is the rebranded 9800GTX/880 [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: the 2xxx series are a lot smallter dies [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: nVidia 8600 used to give me good frame rates until two caps on the board died [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: i think all the 2xx line is pretty much same chips [11:09] Nebadon Izumi: just way differnt clock speeds [11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: No, the 200s above the 250 have like twice the shader and render units [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya but its the same code in the chips its just more cores [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its like core2duo vs core2quad [11:10] Nebadon Izumi: same chip just more cores [11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. It's a damn big difference in performance though [11:11] Penny Lane: nVidia seem to be slacking. 9800 is nice but it's just an 8800 on a smaller die. And GTS250 is the same again. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya, but no more functionality than a 250 [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: they can render the same things [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: just not as fast [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt say slacking [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I need to go. I'll ask about the search on IRC. See you all next week. [11:11] Nebadon Izumi: a 250gts uses like 1/4 the power a 8800GTX does [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and puts off like 2/3's less heat [11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, cause they've improved it a lot [11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: It's a very good mid-range card\ [11:12] Bri Hasp: here or SL .. my 295 or 275 are about the same [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i paid 105$ for mine [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and it came with Call of Duty world at War [11:12] Penny Lane: Sure, smaller dies and less current, that's progress (and cheaper!). But still, the architecture is kinda static. [11:12] Richardus Raymaker: yuck, kirsten is 32bit [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: well the 4xx series are crushing everything [11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: The GTX 2xx cards though go into the higher end gaming class. Entirely different core and far more powerful. [11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: The 4xx series goes even further [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: a Nvidia 475 is something like 50-100x faster than a Intel i7 extreme cpu [11:13] Nebadon Izumi: 1 video card [11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: For parallel functions [11:13] Mojito Sorbet: Virtual Worlds have to be enjoyable without such hardware or they are doomed. [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: Back in the early days, a big Hapanese SL company started up [11:14]  OtakuMegane Desu: There's a limit to that sentiment, Mjito [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: They were going to help other Japnese ocmpanies manage their SL presence [11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Mojito* [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: But the market never materialized [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: The hardware requirements exceeded the laptops everyone was using [11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya SL has similar problems really [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: So the numbers were not there - the corporate customers pulled out [11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Othwerwise SL would have all the graphics beauty of the Atari 2600 [11:14] Mojito Sorbet: FInally, the Japanaese company that was goping to help them had to fold [11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: You have to push limits eventually [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: The big company was called MagSL. [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: They had the most beautiful high-rise office building [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i bet like 50-60% of SL is still using AGP graphics adapters [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: The top was literally in the clouds [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: all gone now [11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably [11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and single core p4's [11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: Nebadon, it is worse than that [11:15] Mojito Sorbet: I have heard numbers from SL [11:15]  OtakuMegane Desu: And for them, just don't turn on all the super-pretty features [11:16] Mojito Sorbet: 60% are using cheaper mobo gfx [11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Everything still works [11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: And actually doesn't look that bad, even on lower settings [11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya most laptops in the past year have much faster graphics cards than anything AGP offers [11:16] Mojito Sorbet: I think, as long as the etxures are not all grey, it us bearable [11:16] Mojito Sorbet: I have an old tablet PC. EVen on low setttings, most avatars never had textures. Just grey outlines [11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: For those who want to spend money for the extra power, you get to turn everything to max and enjoy the view. [11:17] Mojito Sorbet: Creators of content know about this [11:17] Mojito Sorbet: No point spending big money making something beautgul if only 10% can enjoy it [11:18]  OtakuMegane Desu: That was one of the mistakes LL made for a while [11:18] Mojito Sorbet: Where would Chakryb Forst be if they had to charge admission? [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: They put all their efforts into pretty new fluff and now SL is in ultra-suck mode [11:18] Juicy Babii: All this convo is making me order a new graphics card :-/ [11:18] Mojito Sorbet: Chakryn [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:18] Juicy Babii: Just saw news SL banned Emerald [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: id like to order a new graphics card, but not just for SL [11:18]  Mojito Sorbet: You need to provide a link for that [11:18] Bri Hasp: they did? [11:18] Juicy Babii: due to DOS attacks [11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: SL is the only thing I need a video card for, so...lol [11:18] Mojito Sorbet: Just delisting them is not banning them [11:18] Nebadon Izumi: Emerald was removed from the TPV yes [11:19] Mojito Sorbet: Removed from TPV is NOT banning [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt just the DoS thing [11:19] Mojito Sorbet: Link, please [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: they had encrypted files [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: that no one could parse [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: cannot run kirsten at all now. installed some things butpossible need rtestart. [11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: I would have gotten a better card, but the later Nvidia models don't have much in the way of passive cooling options yet. [11:19] Nebadon Izumi: emkdu was also why it was removed [11:19] Mojito Sorbet: Emerald will be back. It ius now under new management. Probably under a new name [11:19] Mojito Sorbet: The guy running Emerald was an underage (teenager* [11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: I was able to transfer the third-party cooler from my 4870 to the GTS [11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: So that's what I got lol [11:20]  Bri Hasp: emerald users are so many [11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: i cannot remeber i have seen or feeled anything from some DoS. maby because i run linux ? :P [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i never liked emerald [11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: Emerald is dropping though [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i must be missing something [11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: emerald gets a new name read that on blog [11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:20]  Mojito Sorbet: Emerald doe snot work so hot on OpenSim, so it does not matter to me [11:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: And Imprudence is there with almost the same feature set AND better perfomance. [11:20]  Mojito Sorbet: yes [11:20]  Mojito Sorbet: And without the drama [11:20] Nebadon Izumi: people just like green [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:21] Bri Hasp: yeah [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: Proabbly be replaced by the new *puce* viewer [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol [11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: The only reason I got Emerald in SL was the animation permissions revoke and boob physics. The latter is in Imprudence and the former I don't need here. [11:21] Mojito Sorbet: Puce is a hideous shade of green though [11:22] Wordfromthe Wise: emerald is back only with a viewer, now ... the DOS (DDOS) was against another Viewer Developer Homepage .. and it was just basic html fun .. not a real coder attack .. [11:22] Mojito Sorbet: Teal would be nice... [11:22] Bri Hasp: i do tours in SL hate my bits bouncing along [11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i thought puce was purple [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: oh rigt [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: I doubt most people give a damn about the target. Hijacking your computer to cause the DOS is not exactly nice and potentially even opens you to liability. [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: Puce is sort of a "dusty rose" [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: That's what the problem was. [11:23] Mojito Sorbet: Yes. It was not the Emerald viewerr doing it - it was the HTML page it dopwnloaded form modularsystems [11:23] Bri Hasp: wasn't emerald data mining early this year? [11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Yep [11:24] Wordfromthe Wise: yes, also .. the whole bunch of people behind emerald have a shady backfround .. :-) [11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think the bigger problem with emerald was they were encrypting files that even most of their developers could not parse them [11:24]  OtakuMegane Desu: Takes your directory info where the application is and encrypts it and broadcasts too. [11:24]  Wordfromthe Wise: at least they have not ripped money or so from the people [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: originally they were obfuscating code [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: then when they got caught doing that [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: they promise dthey would stop [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and instead of stopping they used high encryption to hide things [11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and only a few of the devs knew what was going on [11:24]  Bri Hasp: not very professional [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: and thats pretty much against TPV policy [11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: Funny, Woodbury told everyone they were doing bad stuff like half a year ago. LL kicked them out of SL, then sure enough, oh look wut Emerald is doing... [11:25] Wordfromthe Wise: i never cared as emerald does not work well in here ... i only knew hippo is light blue :-) [11:25] OtakuMegane Desu: They're probably laughing their asses off recently [11:25]  Penny Lane: Wordfromthe: a DDoS is a DDoS, whether it's for fun or for damage. It would be just as illegal if used to boost Mother Teresa's pagehit profits. [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i always had a bad feeling about emerald [11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i have never used it [11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: I used it in SL because it had features I needed at the time. I gave up after a few weeks here because sit didn't work right [11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: When it worked at all