Chat log from the meeting on 2020-03-03

[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew

[11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone

[11:03] George Equus: Hi Andrew

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.

[11:05] George Equus: Noting that the stream that is NOT running sound very nice :)

[11:05] Ubit Umarov: hmm?

[11:05] Now playing: Two Steps From Hell - Guardians

[11:05] Ubit Umarov: stream is working for me

[11:06] George Equus: Yes

[11:06] Ubit Umarov: well about that broken mesh of last week that did cause prims to vanish

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: i did ask beq, and it is a known issue

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I turned on playing of the stream and I hear it too. I don't usually listen to the local stream.

[11:07] Ubit Umarov: it can even make any other things to vanish, not just prims on same linkset

[11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I hear the stream

[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, That is a known viewer bug?

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: stream's working

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: then i did remember i had seen that before in past, and was just any prims

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a feature Andrew

[11:08] Ubit Umarov: no it is his viewers lmitations

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: :)

[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. So an issue viewer side.

[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: now you see me - now you don't

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: mesh two dense or something.. beq kinda explained but i dont remember that :)

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: too not two lol

[11:09] George Equus: Was the only instance I noticed when it didn't work. Not had problem before. only with use of that particular Mesh object

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: so.. kill that mesh and start over

[11:09] Ubit Umarov: :p

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: if i remember on the other broken thing, all was fine with just one on the region

[11:10] George Equus: Bill's Media control say Stream not running in red but maybe only refer to video

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: a few.. pofff get a exorcist

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: oh thats other stream

[11:10] Ubit Umarov: and that movie there

[11:11] George Equus: It may please you Ubit to hear that I finally have updated Firestorm to 6.0.2.

[11:11] George Equus: Stay on it this time, work just fine

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: cool

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: im on 6.3.6

[11:11] Ubit Umarov: :p

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: but its beta.. official is 6.0.2

[11:12] Ubit Umarov: this one is workng fine

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: just on close it leaves stuff running process that do mess up cache badly

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: stuck...

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: not sure what does trigger that

[11:13] George Equus: Was the problem with missing video preventing the update for me but was simple change in script to get it playing again.

[11:13] Ubit Umarov: guess it is having several running at some time

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: when we close one, it seems to get sutck and never dies

[11:14] George Equus: So Opensim version of FS still support that video codec after all.

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: blocking cache access for others

[11:14] George Equus: Make sence. This is not SL..

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: yes mp4 seems working

[11:14] Ubit Umarov: and seems SL will suport it again

[11:15] George Equus: Really?

[11:15] Ubit Umarov: their lawyers changed their minds about the mp4 legal issues on the viewer case

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: seems mp4 license is a mess.. some decoders also need to pay, others don't

[11:16] George Equus: Yes, I read about that someplace and it was made very clear that it is free for private use

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: but sl is not private usage

[11:16] Ubit Umarov: seems it falls on "grey area"

[11:16] George Equus: MP3 and TIFF image format also formally carry a licence to be paied by users...

[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even an opensim grid owned not by you is not private use

[11:17] Ubit Umarov: or a hg standalone with a visit

[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well

[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If the mac viewer used the Apple system libraries, it would be covered by the developer license

[11:18] George Equus: Is up to user, if you charge for ppl to view the video you must pay the licence

[11:20] George Equus: Don't think anyone will hunt us down for it on a virtual world anyway.

[11:22] Ubit Umarov: about kitely upgrading to 0.9x we still got no official feedback from them about any issues they possible found. we only did got some people telling about how they public claim that 0.9.x is completely broken and useless without the hundred ( guess they meant thousand) of fixes they made.

[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is that the message?

[11:23] Ubit Umarov: and of course seems they say 0.8x was a lot better...

[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hit the revert button then

[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I personally thought 0.8.x was a bit of a mess

[11:24] Kayaker Magic: They mention one issue that I already knew about and was thinking about making a patch for: When you send a message to a group, and the group has HG members, and the send to one of the HG members fails, the code waits for 60 seconds for a response before giving up and moving to the next member of the group.

[11:25] Kayaker Magic: This makes sending group messages take FOREVER when you have a lot of HG members.

[11:25] Ubit Umarov: what of that is truth, or the typicial comercial bullshit some comercial grids like to self promote or actual issues... well we need to wait for any official feddback from them

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well reading the unoifficial info i got, ppl we are not here.. 0.9 does not work

[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: At one of the public Kitely meetings it was said that they will be working on updating the code base first. Later on they will be providing patches.

[11:26] Ubit Umarov: (info about supposelly they said )

[11:27] Kayaker Magic: What makes this worse is a lot of people are starting to use that stand-alone-hypergrid system on their PCs, then turning it off when not in use. So any HG requests to those systems fails most of the time.

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: HG does not scale

[11:27] Ubit Umarov: neither do groups

[11:28] Kayaker Magic: A shorter timeout, or one that can be set in the INI file would make that particular problem go away.

[11:28] Ubit Umarov: and fail on many slow systems

[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just use the UDP approach - send and hope it gets there

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yes, but many even ask use to stop using udp every where

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: bc most institutions just block all udp

[11:29] George Equus: security reasons?

[11:29] Ubit Umarov: yeap

[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people are not supposed to sit at work tinkering with their avatars anyway

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and for example the ims offline does need a feedback

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: groups is a scale issue

[11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Security is of concern to educators.

[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a constant issue in SL

[11:30] Ubit Umarov: even on old days irc channels had issues

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: would just not scale..

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: see a group im is a huge trafic multiplier

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: educators will usually have a private grid inside their FW, and UDP should work fine without sec issues on the intranet

[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is only when traversing the FW there might be an issue

[11:31] Ubit Umarov: you send Hi, that is 1000 "Hi" or more

[11:32] Kayaker Magic: Well, Kitely has lots of people who have events and send out group notices so this sort of problem causes Kitely headaches. So they see lots of things like this that need fixing.

[11:32] Ubit Umarov: and to send those 1000 Hi, here you need to get all the users of the group that are online, have rights to get it.. etc etc

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ircd just keep all channels info in memory

[11:33] Ubit Umarov: but irc servers only do that :p

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: also on irc you don't teleport to other server

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: you disconnect and connect ( ie login )

[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: The way the group information is stored in the database tables doesn't seem very efficient.

[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you might teletype to the other server

[11:34] Ubit Umarov: nothing about that is efficient

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and nothig new groups are bad.. they don't scale

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: SL is changing them also

[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ( so possible viewers will stop working here also )

[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very time you bring up groups, Oz gets edgy

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: on top of that no idea why we even try to mix groups with HG

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: nver understud very well HG group members

[11:36] Ubit Umarov: thats over pushing..

[11:38] Ubit Umarov: but well what i seen was not about bad groups claim.. was totally broken 0.9, impossible to use by any other grid without their 100s fixes

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: broken for them

[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: given they already have made major changes, so no wonder it did not work right out of the box

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: without also backporting support for their own functionaloity

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well i don't need to express in words what i think about such claims from people making money on free code, not giving anythiing back for years

[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but of course.. i may had got wrong information.. and that is not their spirit ;)

[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just because it is broken for Kitely does not mean it is broken

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well i remember when 0.9.0.0 was release

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and how ubode woulf break all your mesh avatars

[11:41] Ubit Umarov: people driving by own comercial goals have own logic

[11:42] Ubit Umarov: well just sharing the state of mind about the only information i go from that kitely upgrade

[11:42] Kayaker Magic: I'm sure Ilan of Kitely could have said it in a more politic way, instead of BROKEN he could have said "issues that only show up with large numbers of users"

[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Check the logs of the public weekly meetings.

[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Yes, the log has the non-diplomatic way of saying it, you have to translate that into the more politic language.

[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, it was mentioned that some of the issues they have are due to how they run the regions and the number of users.

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: so they did said that?

[11:44] Ubit Umarov: well doesn't matter...

[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they are complaining about their non-standard behavior not to work on the standard release

[11:45] Kayaker Magic: No, they are complaining about things that all the larger grids have issues with, like large groups.

[11:46] Kayaker Magic: So Ubit can complain about the way they are complaining, or he can think about how to make groups work better with HG. His choice.

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well i did ask for feedback, even went to some meetings, and GO NOTHING

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: GOT i mean

[11:46] Ubit Umarov: only this unofficial feedback

[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and worse.. one of their members is supposed to be also a opensim core dev.. they even make marketing usage of that...

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: wlel make your own idea about the ethics of this process

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: lets move :)

[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Does that mean that their core dev can submit patches to Master and they will not be rejected?

[11:48] Ubit Umarov: andrew other topics?

[11:49] George Equus: I did update to 0.9.2 without much success, and reverting to previous did not work because MySQL DB apparently was rewritten in such a way that it became incompatible with 0.9.1  ouch. Reset whole system using an image got me back on track.

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: yes a core dev can push code directly

[11:49] George Equus: Working on it...

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: the "refusal" process on that case is very diferent :p

[11:49] Ubit Umarov: there was 2 cases on on materials

[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: One bit of good news is that the Great Canadian Grid appears to be getting closer to being back online. Their website says they are at 92% done.

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: there was a first implementation that made then specific to the parts

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: then a second very wrong one that made them full assets

[11:50] Ubit Umarov: that one did override the other..

[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: The site doesn't say how much longer it will take to get that last 8% done but it sounds like they are making progress.

[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 92% done sounds like a MS project forecast :-)

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and because of that we could had script functions for materails till recent hacks around the issues

[11:51] George Equus: Also keep an eye on GCG development, seem to be in the works

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ...could NOT have script..

[11:51] Ubit Umarov: but that crap did got submited directly :)

[11:52] Ubit Umarov: ( well and so my bugs ;) )

[11:52] George Equus: One man operations can be dicey obviously..

[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I'm not sure what you mean about keeping an eye on GCG development.

[11:53] George Equus: Just that, will it be beck or not.

[11:54] George Equus: Justed to HG to some regions there

[11:54] George Equus: *used

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeah i had no more news about that other comercial gird either

[11:54] Ubit Umarov: grid

[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: The messages on the web site has indicated that the GCG intends to get back online.

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's hope they don't run in to that 90/10 10/90 thing that says 90% of the work will take 10% of the time and the last 10% of the work will take 90% of the time. :)

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: that happens most the time andrew :)

[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks nods

[11:56] Ubit Umarov: the little last details are terrinble

[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well on code.. hmm nothing special happened i think

[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is just like sales forecasting - 90% win chance, haha

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: a few bug fixes..

[11:58] Ubit Umarov: some code rearrange ...

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: one that i called me names bc deciding to do it

[11:59] Ubit Umarov: took AGEs lol

[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: The hour went by quickly. Any other questions or comments for today before we wrap things up?

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: to save almost nothing, but some source file size :p

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ( well a few NS also )

[12:00] Ubit Umarov: but did took hours to do :)

[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ( and of course got even worse than 0.8 version.. we al know that.. )

[12:01] George Equus: If anyone is interested checking mirror in EVE Online captain's quarters at 1.45, 3.50 and particularly at 5.39 to the right. Unreal Engine... not sure. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqCLSASsmEs

[12:02] George Equus: Sure look nice. Game is boring though...

[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, thanks George.

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: that is a long run game

[12:03] Ubit Umarov: years even it seems

[12:03] George Equus: Was playing for a year but got fed up with hostile climate

[12:04] George Equus: and women better keep away... really bad ppl some of the players

[12:04] George Equus: Graphics are terrific though

[12:05] George Equus: Thanks for today's discussion. I am off.

[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, George.

[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a good evening

[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up the meeting for today. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.

[12:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all

[12:06] Ubit Umarov: cya ppl