Chat log from the meeting on 2012-10-23

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:02] Qandy Saw: it is =) [11:02]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [11:02]  Connected [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: someone Left it at my Mesh Sandbox [11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe [11:03]  Qandy Saw: hehe [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: you can grab a copy there [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: its just the mesh prim though [11:03]  Sarah Kline: HI Justin [11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: hey, Justin [11:03]  logger sewell: Hi Justin [11:03]  Tiffany Magic: Hello all [11:03]  Qandy Saw: hello [11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: you would need to make a transparent skin layer and shape etc.. [11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey is on LL1.23.5 as he still hasn't got his shortcuts sorted out [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin [11:04]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Hi JCC [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: heh [11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, that's at Reticulation? [11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so to me you just look like a wierd flat polygon flapping about [11:04] Nebadon Izumi: yes Andrew [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: k. [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ahh ok ya [11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its a Mesh Avatar [11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to update my LM to include your name. [11:04] logger sewell: Justiin looks like that to me but I'm on imp [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya you need a v3 viewer for mesh [11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the problem with mesh avatars if you don't have a mesh enabled viewer [11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew, wel i finaly know how to paint mesh. so i can start to use it [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - I shouldn't be using this - just I haven't had the time to update stuff [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: after --loginuri [11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: went away [11:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, nice. I haven't done anything much with meshes lately. [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: Now only waiting for the right viewer [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: maybe use Firestorm [11:06] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Booo! LL [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes I'll be using that of kokua [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: or [11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: hm.. there seemed to be a slight bit of lag just before Arielle poped in [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya [11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: Firestorm have broken LSL editor. but yes for iupload thats only choice. or zen [11:06] Tiffany Magic: brb... changing viewers to see if I can actually rezz in. [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Im using Zen right now [11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: unfortunately, firestorm has problems with --loginuri - I think something isconflicting with the builtin grid stuff [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: just downloaded newest version giving it a whirl [11:06] logger sewell: the new singularity works pretty good at mesh and light share [11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i need to update links on website for Zen [11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been using CoolVL viewer but want to use Singularity when it gets mesh [11:06] Richardus Raymaker: wich version. ? i run sing 1.7.2 [11:07] Richardus Raymaker: but singularity cant import mesh ? [11:07] Qandy Saw: nope [11:07] logger sewell: i think it can [11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, not ye [11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: t [11:07]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [11:07] logger sewell: ah nm it just see it [11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, word is that it will have import soon [11:08] Mantic.Azalee @art.no-ip.org: CIAO AMORE FINALMENTE [11:08] Nebadon Izumi: website fixed [11:08] Mantic.Azalee @art.no-ip.org: VIENI [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin always wears white. [11:08] Richardus Raymaker: ok. still waiting for fixt alpha release [11:08] Nalates Urriah: I could not login with Firestorm 4.2.2 [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I've compiled Singularity from source [11:08] Arielle Popstar: long underwear [11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Good for the winter [11:09] Richardus Raymaker: Not afraid for cvompileing. but a viewer.. not thanks [11:09] Tiffany Magic: Well, this may be a stupid question, considering what you all see here right now.. *chuckles*... but, we at VH are having rezz in problems since upgrading to 7.4. Has anyone come up with any ideas as to why?? [11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, Singularity is the first (and so far only) viewer I've ever been able to compile. [11:10] Hiro Protagonist: brb [11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean by rezz in problem? [11:11] Tiffany Magic: Justin... people can't get regions to rezz in.... or it takes up to 30 minutes to get there... and we have cloud issues as you see here also. [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: I see no clouds here today [11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: isn't this the same issue we've been talking about on and off for the last few months? [11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Today is a cloud free day [11:11] Qandy Saw: yep [11:11] Richardus Raymaker: on;y new errer i saw last time, where slow assets. but thats not so strange to now its busy. [11:11] Nalates Urriah: Everyone but Mike K has ressed for me... [11:12] Tiffany Magic: Justin... Yes, I keep bringing it up, but haven't been told any solutions. [11:12] Arielle Popstar: imp on that grid then try anisotropic toggle ro rezzz [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: Tiffany looks sort of naked to me [11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: oops yes, can't see Mike K [11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: tiffany, do you get errors on the consoel ? [11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm [11:12] Tiffany Magic: No, Richardus [11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and Master Dubrovna is grey [11:12] Qandy Saw: to me same [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: that's because it's a problem I haven't heard anybody else encounter [11:13] Sarah Kline: It's probably a network problem rather than Opensim [11:13] Arielle Popstar: he is grey for me too [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: i only see some more lag after teleport into my region sometimes. but thats the normall rezz lag. but only a bit stronger. ok, regions are running 11 days no without reboot [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Slow rezzing in suggests network issues in sending object updates from simulator to viewer [11:13] Tiffany Magic: So VH is the only one with rezz in issues? [11:13] Andrew Hellershanks doesn't see grey people but Tiffany seems to be missing clothing [11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: the only one that has reported them [11:13] Richardus Raymaker: i see a few white people here [11:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: racist [11:13] Qandy Saw: :D [11:14] Webby Merlin: some sims rez in fast and fine.. others.. take forever. The pattern is not in number of prims or scripts. All regions are in the same server bank [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: heh [11:14] Sarah Kline: lol [11:14] Richardus Raymaker: hiro, master,justin wear white clothes [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I am actually wearing white clothing [11:14] Master Dubrovna rebakes....again [11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: webby: then it should be possible for you to narrow down the issue by a process of elimination [11:14] Sun Tzu: And changes I made to my avatar yesterday didn't show today [11:15] Nalates Urriah: Dub is white for me, I'm in Singularity today [11:15] Richardus Raymaker: which version nalates ? [11:15] Master Dubrovna: I am on a slow upload connection....limited resources here [11:15] Arielle Popstar: i do see this message all the time i log into osgrid now though: [11:15] Arielle Popstar: [11:03] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets [11:15] Arielle Popstar: getting tiring [11:16] Nalates Urriah: Nope I am halucinating... I used Cool VL Viewer 1.26.4 (10) Apr 26 2012 [11:16] Richardus Raymaker: ?? thats a new one. [11:16] Dahlia Trimble is Online [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, process of elimination? [11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: depends if regions are running in exactly the same simulator or not [11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Nalates: :-) yup. same viewer here [11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: if not, then load the 'slow' region into the simulator with the 'fast' regions and see if the problem persists, etc. [11:16]  Webby Merlin: All our regions run their own instance of opensim [11:17]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm that phot/texture is still white [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: instances on the same machine? [11:17]  Tiffany Magic: No, Justin. there is no pattern at all between what simulator a region is on. [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: but is it always the same regions? [11:17]  logger sewell: Justin what happens is i can log into a region with one avatar and rezz fine log out then log in as another one and cant rezz on the same region [11:17]  Richardus Raymaker: the slow errors you still see... but sofar i see its something on internet [11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: and what when that avatar goes to different regions? [11:18] Hiro Protagonist is back [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: wb hiro [11:18] Arielle Popstar: wb [11:18]  Hiro Protagonist: ty [11:18]  Sun Tzu: Is there any kind of analysis tool yet for OpenSim that allows those hosting it to run through to see what might be causing the problems? [11:18] logger sewell: I think it's avatar based but sometimes they willl rezz in fine [11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: no [11:18]  Tiffany Magic: I logged in an alt and none of the regions I went to would rezz. [11:18] Richardus Raymaker: i dont know how much impact the assets conversion have on the grid ? [11:19] Tiffany Magic: Log in my main avatar, and no problems. [11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: logger: you need to find the trigger - there is not enough data to deterine the issue and I haven't heard this from anybody else so far [11:19] Arielle Popstar: are you all using imp? [11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Did you say that you are running many regions / server? [11:19] Hiro Protagonist: what are we analysing? [11:19] Richardus Raymaker: Most antoing thing i sometimes have are scripts the after save are not saved and you lose work. [11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, many regions per physical server. one region per instance. [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: Imprudence, that terrible old viewer. noooo. [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: tiffany et al appears to have problems with some avatars receiving object data very slowly when they enter e aregion [11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: impy always behaved itself for me. [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: but that not consistently [11:20] Tiffany Magic: When I have brought this up before, others have said they have also had the problem. We are not completely unique. [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: maybe the regions are experiencing some bottleneck in the system [11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't remember anybody else having said that [11:20] Hiro Protagonist: Ok Justin not seen that but I got another real winner for you when you're ready [11:20] logger sewell: and our servers run at between 15 and 25% cpy and less then 15 gigs of memory ? [11:20] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the regions will generate some IO, even if they're empty [11:20] Arielle Popstar: i have complained in past of similar biut only on osgrid [11:20] Richardus Raymaker: the error i sometimes see, and also in the log are presence on grid errors. ihappy i see them rare [11:20] Dahlia Trimble: hi [11:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Hi Dahlia [11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hello dahlia [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: similar is too inprecise [11:21] logger sewell: Hi Dahilia [11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: there are many problems of many different natures, and many things vulnerable to network, etc. issues [11:21] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia [11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I find it odd that it seems related to an avatar [11:21] Sun Tzu: On Virtual Highway, it would take me like 5-10 mins to rez textures and geometry, and changing settings to low did not improve it. Problem noticed with both Pheonix and Imprudence viewers [11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Tiffany, just had a thought. Are the avatars with the problem cloned from the same root avatar? [11:22] Richardus Raymaker: i know soemone that need some time to rezz the sim to if he login on mine. but after that it seems fine. SL seems worse for him. lol [11:22] Arielle Popstar: Tiffany, do you have HG enabled? [11:22] Webby Merlin: No they ace cloned from any of 8 possible avatars [11:22] Webby Merlin: HG is not enabled is it Andrew? [11:22] Hiro Protagonist: FYI we've been seeing and reporting this problem for a month now [11:23] Sun Tzu: No HG on Virtual Highway [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: webby, they can be but are the ones affected cloned from the same one? [11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: HG is not supposed to be enabled. [11:23] Hiro Protagonist: we being myself and my osgrid users [11:23] Hiro Protagonist: it does not appear to be happening on the other grids I operate [11:23] Arielle Popstar: yeah a bit suprised Justin missed that \ [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: missed what? [11:24] Arielle Popstar: that others having been having problems in .7.4 [11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, you have also reported the rezzing issue in another grid? [11:24] Hiro Protagonist: I said "I havent seen it on the other grids I operate" [11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: if they are then they are not reporting them in mantis [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: which is what they should be doing [11:25] Hiro Protagonist: its been reported in mantis [11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: then you will have to give me the number [11:25] Arielle Popstar: been mentioned in this meeting a few times too [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: believe it or not, nobody pays me to fix your bugs [11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: so you will have to remind me to help me [11:26]  Arielle Popstar: :) [11:26]  Andrew Hellershanks doesn't like mantis that much [11:26]  Andrew Hellershanks tries to find the search feature in mantis [11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: I have gotten a couple reports, mostly from Hiro [11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: Nobody pays me to find them. :) [11:27] Sun Tzu: Where can I find Mantis? Got a URL? [11:27] Arielle Popstar: lol Richard [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: couple other people to, doesnt seem wide scale to me so far, but maybe people are just not mentioning it too I don't know [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: it's been extensively discussed in the forums as well [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: try google [11:27] Sun Tzu: ok [11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: I have yet to experience it myself [11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I cannot read forums, I have enough to do already [11:27] Arielle Popstar: try wearing some attachments like regular users [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: I dont really expect you to haunt the forums [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: I dont [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: the only time I ever had anything similar happen was when you HG teleported to older OpenSim versions [11:27] Hiro Protagonist: but even I know this is a months old issue [11:27] Nebadon Izumi: anything scripted could potentially get destroyed [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: but I have not seen that happen in some time [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: and the few people who have reported don't seem to be using HG [11:28]  Hiro Protagonist: its more than a few nebadon [11:28] Arielle Popstar: it still happens if you hg to older standalones grids [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ive not really made any conection [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: only problem i discoveryed 2 days ago. 1 hud lost prims. but edit still told me there where 6. but only saw 1. all others where complete invisible [11:28] Hiro Protagonist: whats the point in making this seem small? [11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Sun Tzu: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/ [11:28] Richardus Raymaker: and the white textures happen more. [11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well I can only say a few people have reported it to me [11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe 3-4 people at most [11:28] Sun Tzu: thanks Andrew [11:28] Hiro Protagonist: its practically frigging epidemic [11:29] Sun Tzu: *smiles* [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: you being one of them Hiro [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Sun, yw [11:29]  Arielle Popstar: and me [11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not saying more people arent experiencing it, just what I have seen [11:29] Richardus Raymaker: HG need to be blocked if the other simulator is to old [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: you forget I am reporting on dozens of users [11:29] Andrew Hellershanks thinks this is the first time hearing that it is (or maybe) being experienced in other grids [11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its likely there is some kind of bug [11:29] Hiro Protagonist: literally, dozens [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I recall I only ever recall us speaking about your watch [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I still haven't heard a mantis number [11:30] Arielle Popstar: and i rarely mention issues unless there are others telling me they seeing issues too [11:30] Richardus Raymaker: SOrry, i lost track. wich problemyou mean hiro' [11:30] Nebadon Izumi: this is the 1st I am hearing that dozens of people are experiencing it [11:30]  Hiro Protagonist: the watch was what we focussed on in troubleshooting yes [11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: dozens of people are experiencing what? [11:30] Hiro Protagonist: you tend to forget what you dont like hearing [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: slow or no rez [11:31] Arielle Popstar: rezzing issues, inventory losses etc [11:31] Walter Balazic: greetings [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: literally minutes to rez a cube with build tools [11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: and where is the mantis for this issue? [11:31] Arielle Popstar: Hi Walter [11:31] Walter Balazic: I'm looking the mantis up for you right now Justin [11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it just arrived :D [11:31] Dahlia Trimble: just in time :) [11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: slow get is known i think. but hard to understand. problems really with rezzing.. rebake works almost always [11:31]  Hiro Protagonist: it's crippling people who spend the balance of their time creating content [11:32]  Walter Balazic: you want that white prim one we have been discussing Hiro, or the creator issue one? [11:32]  Walter Balazic: which incidentally I think is related [11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: and still working on own grid. until then hard to compare [11:32]  Hiro Protagonist: then pop 'em both bro [11:33]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: really, the only way to track it down is to find a 100% repro recipe to trigger it [11:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, I was able to log in with someones avatar who was having the problem and saw it for myself. I don't recall seeing anything in the logs that might have indicated where the problem may lie. [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: loseing textures (white) is bigger problem [11:33] Walter Balazic: yes that's a big problem [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: then there's that whole thing where everytim I log in I get a message about things that cant be found on the asset server [11:33] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: or at least 60% [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: which, incidentally, is my clothing textures [11:33] Hiro Protagonist: witness the white shirt I'm wearing [11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya and Its impossible for me to do much about it, when I cant reproduce either of the problems [11:33] Walter Balazic: this is the creator issue [11:33] Walter Balazic: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6359 [11:33] Richardus Raymaker: ohh the "assets not fpound" hire. tripped into that one on osgrid once [11:34] Hiro Protagonist: you could start by not pretending the problem is affecting 'one or two people' [11:34] Arielle Popstar: well then maybe i will let you team view in to experience it [11:34]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: my dev grid runs very good most of the time [11:34] Walter Balazic: this seems to have started at the same time [11:34] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: if I see an issue, I have to start eliminatintg things to make a repro [11:34] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: then I can start looking for ways to fix it [11:34]  Walter Balazic: [11:34] Unknown User: my dev grid runs very good most of the time [11:35] Walter Balazic: who is unknown user please [11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: BlueWall [11:35] Walter Balazic: ah [11:35]  Walter Balazic: thank you [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the "Unknown User" thing has been happening quite a long time [11:35] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: heh, I crashed 3x today [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: has there been a recent increase? [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya viewer cache or something [11:35] Arielle Popstar: yes Justin [11:35] Andrew Hellershanks is Offline [11:35] Arielle Popstar: it was fine for quite a while [11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it happens more to people who HG [11:35]  Marcus Llewellyn: I only ever see unknown users on HG users and NPC, if they are in a simulator before I enter it. [11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: that doesn't surprise me [11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: if you never leave OSgrid you are very unlikely to see it [11:36]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I have to go pretty soon - I'm trying to get all the pieces together to push the Robust plugins [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: this all started with the introduction of HG2.0 [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: even just logging into multiple grids ive seen it [11:36]  Tiffany Magic: Happens alot in VH and we are not HG enabled. [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: when i was logging into SL alot [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I will push it to a branch and follow up with an email to the dev list [11:36] Andrew Hellershanks is Online [11:36] Hiro Protagonist: also about that time asset compression started [11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: ok bluewall [11:36] Nebadon Izumi: i would constantly come back to OSgrid seeing "Uknown User" [11:36] Walter Balazic: actually Hiro, nobody bothered to Mantis that.... they all just discussed it in the OSgrid forum [11:36] Walter Balazic: http://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4416&hilit=notecard [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I did need to add an interface [11:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: hopefully that waon't derail it [11:36]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: :S [11:36] Walter Balazic: I'll start a mantis on it [11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: walter, i think the problem is to fuzzy for a mantis. [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Crashed again while checking mantis in another desktop [11:37] Walter Balazic: and it does effect alot of people [11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: is that here on OSG - mostly? [11:37] Walter Balazic: there's now a running joke among all our creators that it's easy to texture things now because everything is white [11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Find out if one of the affected people sees the same thing here [11:37] Walter Balazic: no [11:37]  Walter Balazic: it does this on standalones also [11:37] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: linux/windows Robust server? [11:38] Walter Balazic: I have only tested it on Win .NET servers [11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Walter, if someone can see the same problem here its more likely to get fixed [11:38] Walter Balazic: using the build that Justin built on our server [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: so its not something isolated to OSgrid only your saying Walter? [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: interestingly, I backtracked the misswing asset message back into the source code; it resides in one place and one place only in the source [11:38] Dahlia Trimble: could that mantis have anything to do with asset consolidation? where assets which hash the same are all saved as one asset? [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: in the HG inventory module [11:38] Nalates Urriah: ...if it affects lots of people and its a fuzzy repro get them all reporting in the forum. Eventually you can see a pattern and make a decent mantis report. [11:38] Walter Balazic: from what I understand people who are doing things standalone are also getting this [11:38] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I worked yesterday on getting us to run on mono 3.0.0 #$$%%$^&#$% [11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: in principle it shouldn't [11:38]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: no luck [11:38] Nebadon Izumi: that seems very unlikely Dahlia, we have been doing that for a couple years now [11:38] Walter Balazic: but since I only run on OSgrid, I cannot test that theory [11:38] Hiro Protagonist: now why would I get messages about missing assets from an HG inventory module when I am not using HG? when I'm on a region configured, not for HG? [11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: ya but maybe it was a buggy run once Nebadon [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: anybody? [11:39] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the grid - is it configured for it? [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: all of OSgrid is configured for inbound HG [11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hiro, I've recently seen search reporting unable to connect to HG something on a grid not enabled for HG [11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no way to disable that [11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: Well, until thdere is a mantis on this white texture or whatever it is issue, it's very probably nothing will be done [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: thats great. So we're all on HG now, like it or not [11:39] Hiro Protagonist: and HG inventory handles all inventory now [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: Hiro its always been that way [11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ever since we turned on HG [11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: this is nothing new [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: this bug is something new... [11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I had to enable HG on OSgrid... I ran without for a long time. But I had to many troubles communicating with people on HG enabled regions... IMs wouldn't work right, TPs were always to a HG link... I basically had to enable HG. [11:40] Hiro Protagonist: ...and it pretty clearly sits squarely in the middle of HG code [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: where is the relationship between asset and creator id stored? [11:40] Arielle Popstar: actually i like the hg inventory connectors as i have be=tter loading of inventory for my osgrid accouiunt when on the HG [11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: within inventory information [11:40] Dahlia Trimble: not in assets at all? [11:40] Walter Balazic: I have HG off on every one of my regions, and I still get all TP's attempting to use HG [11:41]  Marcus Llewellyn: HG just doesn't seem to like a grid with mixed HG and non-HG regions. [11:41] Hiro Protagonist: HG is broken [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: right disabling HG only prevents people from HGing out of your sim [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... SOmeone having the problem should create an iar, create new avatar and load the iar to see if the new avatar has the same issue (in case it has anything to do with inventory load) [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its somewhat pointless really to have it disabled [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: ? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its probably going to cause more problems disabling it [11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: than having it turned on [11:41]  Walter Balazic: with all due respect Neb [11:41] Walter Balazic: it stinks [11:41] Hiro Protagonist: ap-parently its pretty much pointless having it enabled too [11:41] Arielle Popstar: i dont think it is hg that is broken [11:41] Walter Balazic: my regions run better with it off [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ok then leave it off [11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: I kept it disabled because it was one less thing to troubleshoot. [11:41] Walter Balazic: and anything that makes things unstable, I leave off [11:41] Arielle Popstar: but something tying into it [11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: So HG disabled would still allow HG in bound? [11:42] Walter Balazic: and frankly, I'm not the only one that agrees with this [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: all the Plazas have it enabled [11:42] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: why disable it? [11:42] Walter Balazic: the plaza's run no scripts, no build, etc, etc.. [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: as do my own personal regions [11:42] Richardus Raymaker: disable HG is one big of problem, costed soem time in the past before i figured out you need tpo have HG enabled on osgrid. [11:42] Walter Balazic: I can make a sim that runs nothing and will run smooth too [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: not really true at all Walter [11:42] Walter Balazic: let people build on LBSA [11:42] Walter Balazic: and put scripted items out there [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: people can build here [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and sandboxes [11:42] Walter Balazic: and see how well it works [11:43] Walter Balazic: not on LBSA [11:43] Walter Balazic: you are telling me I can build here? [11:43] Walter Balazic looks up [11:43]  Walter Balazic: look like no build to me [11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe not this parcel [11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Walter, sandbox plaza [11:43] logger sewell: Hi Azah [11:43] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: heh - never run scripts or allow object creation in a welcome area [11:43] Azah Tabor: hey L:ogger [11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a small sandbox area in this region IIRC [11:43] Arielle Popstar: probably something to do with groups [11:43] Nebadon Izumi: whatever man you obviously know better than me so im going to shut up now [11:43] Tiffany Sicling: lbsa has it's load as it is, it doesn't need general public adding to that [11:43] Walter Balazic: well comparing a sandbox, or a plaza that allows nothing to run is really not a fair comparison is it? [11:44] Tiffany Sicling: er Wright Plaza [11:44] Walter Balazic: to a sim that has heavily scripted items permitted, and allows rezzing of items? [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: I think he is referring to a sandbox parcel here in this region [11:44] Walter Balazic: well a sandbox is another matter, he said plazas [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: I don't know what the heck your talking about [11:44] Dahlia Trimble: I dont think there are any sandbox areas in WP anymore are there? [11:44] Walter Balazic: [11:42] Nebadon Izumi: all the Plazas have it enabled [11:44] Nebadon Izumi: there is literally 2800 scripts running here [11:44] Hiro Protagonist: it's a sandbox arcel here on this region [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we have multiple homstead regions [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we put little to no restrictions on what people do [11:45]  Walter Balazic: people wearing scripted items that TP in here [11:45] Walter Balazic: cannot run them [11:45] Walter Balazic: if you have a scripted item on right now, you cannot run it in LBSA [11:45] Nebadon Izumi: I think I know how the plazas are configured [11:45] Walter Balazic: correct or incorrect? [11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: I understood him to mean all Plazas have HG enabled. [11:46] Walter Balazic: well this is what I'm getting at, when you have HG enabled and tp around, your scripted items fall off [11:46] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: afk... [11:46] Walter Balazic: which is why I don't have it enabled [11:46] Walter Balazic: you asked why [11:46] Walter Balazic: that's why [11:46] Walter Balazic: [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its somewhat pointless really to have it disabled [11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: ? [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its probably going to cause more problems disabling it [11:41] Nebadon Izumi: than having it turned on [11:46] Arielle Popstar: only when you hg to older hg regions [11:46] Walter Balazic: this is in response to this Neb [11:47] Walter Balazic: peoples items falling off is a big problem for us, so that's why we have it disabled [11:47] Azah Tabor: thank you Tiff Tiff [11:48] Walter Balazic: that may be the case Arielle, but how do you force people to all use the same HG release? [11:48] Walter Balazic: right? [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: you cant, as we seem to have abandoned the practice of the forced upgrade when a breaking change is made [11:49] Arielle Popstar: my understanding is that the reason the item messes up is that the uuid gets changed on the home region [11:49] Dahlia Trimble: HG should probably do version checks as part of the protocol (if it doesnt already) [11:49] Arielle Popstar: or grid [11:49] Hiro Protagonist: it doesnt and never has [11:49] Richardus Raymaker: Only way, HG need to check with the other side what HG its running / opensim. if to old block teleport [11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: uuids would never change though [11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: The only time I remember us ever doing that was when there was a huge change, such as the move to ROBUST, or once before that when the DBs got an overhaul. [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: diva says the protocls should be compatible [11:50] Richardus Raymaker: Only need a usefull errro message then [11:50] Walter Balazic: well speaking of UUID's and HG [11:50]  Arielle Popstar: going by what Neb said a while back inrelation to the issue [11:50] Tiffany Sicling: in making HG TP devices, it would be easier to know if the destination is compatible rather than sending one that way and *crash* goes the viewer [11:50] Hiro Protagonist: Marcus: it used to be SOP for a breaking change [11:50] Hiro Protagonist: before HG [11:50]  Webby Merlin: If HG is disabled grid-wide, can it still be doing some processing to determine that -- that could be causing the Rez In problem? [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: webby: there is a small a misleading HG message that gets put sometimes even if hg is disabled [11:50] Nebadon Izumi: trying to guess what the problem is, really is a waste of time [11:50] Walter Balazic: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6359 [11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: something to do with finding regions on the map I think [11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: I remember there being a mechanism in place... I just don't remember it ever being used except when it meant simulators would not be able to communicate with grid servers. [11:51] Nebadon Izumi: we need a way to trigger and recreate the issue [11:51] Hiro Protagonist: Marcus: a breaking change, by definition ;) [11:51]  Nalates Urriah: Gotta run. Bye all [11:51]  Andrew Hellershanks: 6359 isn't about a slow rez issue [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: goodbye nalates [11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: I'm surprised with all the oar and iar and HG stuff that there arent a lot more problems like this lol [11:51]  Marcus Llewellyn: Yes... I'm not sure HG meets the same standard, quite, though [11:51]  Walter Balazic: honestly Neb, as far as the white prim situation, we've all speculated that it's due to the Asset Server compress [11:51]  Walter Balazic: is that still going on? [11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: its not even started yet [11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: speculation is exactly that [11:52]  Arielle Popstar: if i hg to older grid with this skirt it is easy to recreate [11:52]  Walter Balazic: ok [11:52]  Walter Balazic: well [11:52]  Walter Balazic: possibly we could all clear the air on that one then? [11:52] Walter Balazic: Hiro tells us one thing, Dan tells me another [11:52] Walter Balazic: and now you are saying it hasn't started [11:52] Dahlia Trimble speculates on what speculation means... [11:52] Hiro Protagonist: speculation is all we got when no one who writes code will listen or remember what we've been saying for weeks [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: we have been doing some database preperation [11:52] Nebadon Izumi: so we can begin compressing at some point [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: no, you need to narrow the problem down [11:52] Walter Balazic: so no compression has been done at all then [11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: if you can't do that then nobody is being paid to help you [11:52] Walter Balazic: ok, well we'll stop thinking that's what's causing it and work on recreating it for a Mantis to make it easier [11:52] Hiro Protagonist: shit I was not only told that it was started but that it had finished [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: if you just wnat to sit here and whine then that's up to you, but it will get NOTHING done [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: well all the assets that have been put up on SRAS2 are compressed yes [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: but we have been doing that since end of August [11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: WIth no mantis, other people won't know to report the issue and add their findings so it will all be in one place. [11:53] Arielle Popstar: that explains this: [11:03] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets [11:53] Walter Balazic: well if the compression has nothing to do with it, we'll do the mantis, we just figured we'd wait until that was done [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: we are still running the old SRAS though [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: I'm not just sitting here win [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: yes you are [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: for everything before August [11:53] Hiro Protagonist: *wining Justin [11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: whine whine whine [11:53] Richardus Raymaker: Still when you found it back nebadon i want to know more about sras2. maby i can use it from the begin [11:53] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.5 Dev          319ebac: 2012-10-23 02:44:15 +0100 (Unix/Mono) [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: that's all I'm heairng from you [11:54] Hiro Protagonist: I'm getting ready to rewrite 21q2 lines of somebodys effed up try/catch clause [11:54] Walter Balazic: idk, I was with Hiro chasing down the white prim thing for days a couple weeks ago [11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: then I sugges tyou do that rather than continuing to whine as if UI can fix all your proiblems by magic [11:54] Walter Balazic: I thought he was pretty productive about it [11:54]  Walter Balazic: but we were told the compression was going on [11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see much production being done here right now [11:54] Walter Balazic: so we figured that was what it was [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: well as far as we know the texture issue was not really with textures [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but with snapshots [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: I cannot and you cannot, but they wont fix themselves while you guys sit around pretend they dont exist [11:55] Arielle Popstar: discouraing when told to report issues and then no one listens anyway Justin [11:55] Walter Balazic: but now that we know that's not the case, we'll look into doing better stuff for the mantis [11:55] Hiro Protagonist: yeah seriously justin you cant have it both ways [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the new version of SRAS one of the fields that stores the snapshots name was not long enough [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: then fine - remember iopensim is alpha software [11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and any snapshot thats name was too long was not being saved properly [11:55] Walter Balazic: you know us Justin, our group will test it, give you a server to test it in .NET if you want, whatever you need [11:55] Walter Balazic: haven't we? [11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: there is not an infiinte suply of developers to fix all bugs immediately [11:56] Walter Balazic: we did to find the .net 64 bit issue didn't we? [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and its impossible to fix a bug if you cant recreate it [11:56]  Walter Balazic: and we will recreate it for you if you want Net, I'll get my people on that right away [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: its impossible to fix a bug you wont even try to recreate [11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: yes, and that was through having a bug report, etc. [11:56]  Walter Balazic: now that we can stop blaming it on the compression thing [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: we just need a recipe on how to create it [11:56]  Walter Balazic: well Justin, here's the thing [11:56] Walter Balazic: we'll do that [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: because I have experienced none of these things [11:56] Walter Balazic: but when we talk about it [11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: and I do quite a bit here [11:56] Hiro Protagonist: sorry, THAT was harsh [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its not like i am not doing anything [11:57] Walter Balazic: 5 different people have information on if there is a compression situation going on or not [11:57] Arielle Popstar: Nebadon put some attachmnets etc on [11:57]  Walter Balazic: so rather than hassle all of you [11:57] Walter Balazic: over something that may be temporary during an upgrade [11:57] Walter Balazic: we just sat and waited [11:57] Walter Balazic: but we'll stop doing that [11:57] Walter Balazic: and put a mantis out tonight for you [11:57] Walter Balazic: with ways to replicate the situation [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, thankyou [11:58] Walter Balazic: that's no problem at all Justin [11:58] Walter Balazic: all we need to know is that it's a problem and not some temporary thing [11:58] Walter Balazic: and we'll do that [11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, and then we can start to investigate it in a rational manner [11:58] Walter Balazic: but when we are told it's temp because of an upgrade, we don't bother you with it [11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: The unknown user thing I didn't look at much [11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: because I know it occasionally happens and the bug report wa sa bit idiosyncratic [12:00] Walter Balazic nods [12:00] Walter Balazic: I will say this Justin, and you have worked on this issue [12:00] Walter Balazic: there is absolutely a correlation between these 3 issues [12:00] Walter Balazic: 1 - llgiveinventory issue [12:01] Walter Balazic: 2 - the white textures [12:01] Walter Balazic: 3 - the creator issue [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: In my opinion there will be no correlation [12:01] Walter Balazic: all three of these started at the same time [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: all 3 are very separet code paths [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: probalyi coincidence [12:01] Walter Balazic: they all rely on inventory do they not or assets? [12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but that's like saying eveyrthing relies on a disk [12:01] Walter Balazic: well [12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: white texture implies no asset entry or incorrect asset UUID [12:01] Walter Balazic: that's oversimplifying it I think, but ok [12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: it can also imply corrupt asset data or a prioblem ith decoding jpeg200 data [12:02] Walter Balazic: if it were TP's I would say they aren't similar issues [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: jpeg2000 [12:02] Walter Balazic: but you can't say that those 3 items aren't at all related [12:02] Dahlia Trimble: white? or gray? [12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I have seen the occasional issue with the jpeg2k decoder [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: Walter, I can, based on my past experience of the code [12:02] Richardus Raymaker: mine is white [12:02] Hiro Protagonist: white [12:02] Dahlia Trimble: white is uuid.zero [12:02] Nebadon Izumi is Offline [12:02] Arielle Popstar: might depend on the viewer Dahlia? [12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I may only have a 99% chance of being right [12:02] Tiffany Sicling: I get textures not found everytime I rez on my region, saying requesting rebake [12:03] Dahlia Trimble: gray is asset not loaded yet [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: one also has to remember that some probelms may be due to various issues running on osgrid [12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I've got texture problems on my own standalone. [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: which would not be seen in a less complicated grid [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: osgrid is actually a very unusual case [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: have you reported them? [12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: I love oSGrid, but it's monstrous in some ways. lol [12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: osgrid is something no sane person would do [12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: white texture = asset not found. inmy inventory i still see a normal uuid [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: quite frankly [12:04] Walter Balazic: I agree, this is partially our fault for not doing a mantis on this, but again, we all thought this was due to the asset server compression [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: for instance on login today (and this sis a totally new variation) I got this message: "Failed to find clothing named Red & Blue Dragon Skirt in the database" [12:04] Dahlia Trimble: Im surprised osgrid works as well as it does [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: now the weird thing is, I'm not wearing it [12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, no. I couldn't say anything besides I have textures not showing up. No way to know when the problem occured or if it can be reproduced. [12:04] Hiro Protagonist: Dahlia: thats stale. OSGrid has been working as well as it does (and lots bettrer than now I'll add) for YEARS [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: well, the first steps would be to identify the object without th texture, inspect it from the simulator command line then try to dump the texture data [12:04] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, objects on my sims rezz fine. [12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: and then inspect the dump [12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I could try rebuilding the db index and see if that makes any difference. [12:05] Richardus Raymaker: i need to test the same texture with zen. maby spontanic it works [12:05] Dahlia Trimble: stale? [12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, right. TOo many things on my todo list now that I haven't spent much time digging in to the issue. [12:05] Hiro Protagonist: I dont stutter [12:05] Walter Balazic: make no mistake everyone, given the support team and the volunteer nature of all this, this grid works incredibly well [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: and believe me, I have little time to dig into issues that don't directly impact my work as well [12:05] Arielle Popstar: i get 5-10 of these messages each time i log in and yet i am wearing complete outfit [12:05] Arielle Popstar: [11:03] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets [12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: so if people can't help me identify issues, chance s are I am going to ignore them until someone more h[elpful comes along or until I hit the issue myself [12:06] Arielle Popstar: no matter which region i log into [12:06] Tiffany Sicling: I get that a lot when someone in another region tries to give me something, and vice versa [12:06] Walter Balazic: well let me say this Justin, this may be part of the issues people have with rezzing [12:06] Walter Balazic: has anyone looked at the response time of the asset server lately? [12:06] Hiro Protagonist: I'd say that given the amount of testing we do, we fit the ticket of such an encounter [12:06] Dahlia Trimble: Hiro, considering any hacker on the entire internet can connect with any software they can imagine, I reallly am surprised it works as well as it does, especially for YEARS [12:06] Andrew Hellershanks needs to type up his todo list so it looks more readable. [12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: that should be disconnected with rezzing since rezzing involve sthe data stored on the region itself [12:06] Richardus Raymaker: Tiffany, thats more a problem with transfer between simulators. [12:06] Snik Snoodle: hello everyone [12:07] Walter Balazic: it should yes [12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hello snik [12:07] Arielle Popstar: Hi Snik [12:07] Walter Balazic: but you still need to rez your inventory [12:07] Walter Balazic: for clothing for example [12:07] Walter Balazic: which is the example that Hiro just addressed [12:07] Snik Snoodle: did I hear asset issues being discussed? [12:07] Walter Balazic: http://stats.pingdom.com/rcoc14tnw05o/341147 [12:07] Walter Balazic: look at the response time [12:07] Walter Balazic: 1440? [12:07] Walter Balazic: and there are several days of yellow outages [12:07] Tiffany Sicling: I have stuff in my inv that will NOT rez at all... of course the stuff is over 2 years old [12:07] Tiffany Magic: Does an issue with passing inventory to another avatar not on the same region come into this same problem? [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: then that's an issue with the asset service [12:08] Snik Snoodle: I have noticed some assets of mine have gone awol again, recently [12:08] Walter Balazic: well, hiro's clothes for example [12:08] Walter Balazic: would come from the asset server right? [12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, the data would come from there [12:08] Walter Balazic: ok [12:08]  Richardus Raymaker: on same region always worked for me [12:08]  Walter Balazic: so... [12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: This sounds like an OSGrid town hall meeting topic. :) [12:08] Richardus Raymaker: unless permissions are wrong [12:08]  Walter Balazic: is it possible that's part of the issue? [12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, because object sends are completely separate [12:08]  Hiro Protagonist: bits dont rot folks [12:08]  Azah Tabor: but if they on different regions Richardus? [12:09]  Hiro Protagonist: something has to shove them around [12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: yes they do in a rapdily changing system [12:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Didn't someone call this is a town hall meeting last week(?) [12:09]  Webby Merlin adds to Tiffany's: It occurs when the two regions are on the same physical server.. as well as when they are on different onces. This includes Full Perm items and those at all permission combinations [12:09]  Walter Balazic: [12:05] Arielle Popstar: [11:03] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets [12:09]  Hiro Protagonist: and if my requests for assets are for asset UUID zero? then something in the tables has been fucked over [12:09] Walter Balazic: so that isn't coming from the asset server? [12:09] Qandy Saw: tc everyone [12:09] Walter Balazic: just trying to figure out how to create the mantis [12:09] Tiffany Sicling: well said webby [12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: no [12:09]  Walter Balazic: ok [12:09]  Walter Balazic: good to know [12:09] Walter Balazic: then the asset server is no quarter with regard to any of these inv issues [12:09] Walter Balazic: that helps [12:10] Walter Balazic: thank you Justin [12:10] Azah Tabor hears Webby is here and shuts up for a mo lol [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the basic object parameters are stored in the region database [12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Tiffany, Webby: That info should get written down somewhere [12:10] Walter Balazic: so our local inventorys [12:10] Tiffany Sicling: I gave up on uploading mesh... sometimes my mesh is fine, but then a few days later, or even later that day, the object doesn't rez up and I get script error triangles on it [12:10] Richardus Raymaker: Walter, i have a white texture. but if i request uuid in inventory it dont show a zero uuid. it looks normal. so maby the viewer is doing soemthing weird to here [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the textures are pulled from asset service. So if there was an asset service problem, one would expect to see grey objects [12:10] Walter Balazic: that's interesting [12:10] Tiffany Magic: It is, Andrew. [12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: and of course, one needs to remembe rthat assets are locally cached [12:10] Webby Merlin: yes we are preparing some documentation in support of a forthcoming Mantis ticket [12:10] Walter Balazic: well I can tell you we did this one day with Hiro as a test [12:11] Walter Balazic: we see this with Photographs alot [12:11] Walter Balazic: oddly enough [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes clearing local cache then a relog will help [12:11] Walter Balazic: someone takes a photo [12:11] Walter Balazic: they see it [12:11]  Walter Balazic: just fine [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Especially when using same viewer for different grids. [12:11] Walter Balazic: if they pass it to me [12:11]  Walter Balazic: white [12:11] Walter Balazic: if they rez it on a prim [12:11] Walter Balazic: and take a photo of what THEY see [12:11] Walter Balazic: it's fine [12:11] Walter Balazic: but the copy I get is white [12:11] Webby Merlin adds to Andrew's: And sometimes changing viewers makes no difference... as well as clearing cache [12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: walter; the test here would be for them to clear their viewer cache then tryi seeing the photo again [12:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:. [12:12] Walter Balazic: actually [12:12] Walter Balazic: I did that [12:12] Walter Balazic: :) [12:12]  Hiro Protagonist: we've done it [12:12]  Walter Balazic: and it went white [12:12]  Tiffany Sicling: hi BlueWall [12:12]  Azah Tabor: adds to Webby's: even having a scripted object send a prim from one region to another does not work [12:12]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: Hello [12:12]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: :) [12:12] Walter Balazic: Hiro worked on this with me a few days [12:12] Arielle Popstar: wb Blue [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so the next step is to locate the actual asset data [12:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: I cleared cache and relogged [12:12] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: my name came back with me [12:12]  Azah Tabor: welcome back Blue... good to see you again [12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: now this is problematic because there's no console command yet - one would have to inspect the inventoryitems db directly [12:12] Walter Balazic: well the asset data would be on the local region? [12:13] Walter Balazic: according to what you just told me? [12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Could flotsam be involved with a white texture issue? [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: true - but you need to find the relationship of your inventroy item to the asset uuid [12:13] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: prims / primitems [12:13] Arielle Popstar: or is it viewer cache? [12:13] Walter Balazic: help me out a sec here Justin [12:13] Walter Balazic: so if I take a photo [12:13] Walter Balazic: and have it in inv [12:13] Walter Balazic: it's stored on the local region [12:13] Walter Balazic: so if someone turns that region off [12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: sure - I am VERY happy to talk about how opensim works underneath if that helps us identify issues [12:13] Walter Balazic: the texture is gone [12:13] Walter Balazic: is that right? [12:14] Webby Merlin: Why would you design a transfer of inventory to use a region cache? Tell me it isn't true! [12:14] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: in inventory == on assets server [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: no, what happens is that when the photo is taken, the viewer encodes it to jpeg200 locally [12:14] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i would say its stored in on the grid server [12:14] Walter Balazic smiles at Richardus [12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the viewer then uploads that texture to the simulator [12:14] Walter Balazic: see this is where I get confused [12:14] Walter Balazic: ok [12:14]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: rezzed in region == region store [12:14] Dahlia Trimble: oh oh past lunch time. Bye all :) *poofs* [12:14] Walter Balazic: so if I recall that later [12:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the simulator in turn uploads that texture to the asset service, also caching it localy [12:14]  Walter Balazic: that image [12:14]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: bye Dahlia [12:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia [12:14]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia [12:14]  Walter Balazic: where does it get ti from? [12:14]  Walter Balazic: *it [12:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: walter: who is it in this case? [12:15]  Richardus Raymaker: correct me if am wrong justin. [12:15]  Walter Balazic: ok, I take a photo here [12:15]  Richardus Raymaker: walter, sofra i know everything is first send to the simul;ator, that send it to the grid server when needed. [12:15]  Walter Balazic: and it's in inv [12:15]  Walter Balazic: called meeting [12:15]  Walter Balazic: right? [12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: walter: not immediately [12:15] Walter Balazic: then you shut down Wright [12:15] Walter Balazic: and I got to idk Doro's sim [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: you take a photo here, and the viewer encodes the textures as jpeg2000 [12:15] Walter Balazic: and pass her the photo [12:15] Walter Balazic: where did it come from [12:15] Dahlia Trimble is Offline [12:15] Walter Balazic: when I look for it in inv [12:15] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: are you listening to me? We ned to walk through thedse steps [12:16] Walter Balazic: ok [12:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok: 1) the viewer itself takes the picture [12:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: 2) the viewer encodes the image to jpeg2000 [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: 3) the viewer uploads that texture to the simulator [12:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: 4) the simulator uploads that texture to the asset service [12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: 5) the simulator also cache the texture locally [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: 6) the simulator tells the viewer the upload ha ssucceeded [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: 7) the viewer then asks the simulator to create ean inventory item, referencing that asset [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: 8) the simulator requests the inventory service to create the inventory item entry [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: 9) the simulator tells the viewer that it has suceeded [12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: 10) you hand the picture to someone else [12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: 11) the simulator creates an inventory item for the new person's inventory picture entry referencing the existing asset [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's pretty much the steps [12:18]  Walter Balazic: ok [12:18]  Walter Balazic: so at step 7 [12:18]  Walter Balazic: my photo has gone to the asset server and created a uuid for it [12:18]  Walter Balazic: for reference [12:18]  Walter Balazic: correct? [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:18]  Walter Balazic: and at step 10 [12:18]  Walter Balazic: I pass that to someone and it goes to the asset server [12:18]  Walter Balazic: and finds that uuid and object [12:18]  Walter Balazic: yes? [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, it's already in thre assets erver [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: all that is passed along is the asset uuid [12:18]  Walter Balazic: ok [12:18]  Arielle Popstar: similar for all inventory items? [12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:19] Walter Balazic: so the uuid has to be matched with the texture [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:19] Walter Balazic: correct [12:19] Walter Balazic: and if the uuid can't find a texture for that in the asset server [12:19] Walter Balazic: then what [12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: you priobably get a white image [12:19] Walter Balazic: :) [12:19]  Walter Balazic: thank you [12:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the uuid for the asset is part of the data [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: so that's one possibility [12:19]  Walter Balazic: that is what I was trying to say about 20 mins ato [12:19]  Walter Balazic: ago [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: but it's also possible that the upload didn't happen properly for some reason [12:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: the inventory will usse that uuid [12:19]  Walter Balazic: well yes [12:19]  Tiffany Sicling: ditto on the white image received instead of the texture wanted [12:19]  Walter Balazic: exactly [12:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: and what the simualtor actually received was bad data [12:19]  Walter Balazic: but either way [12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: which will result in exactly the same problem [12:20]  Walter Balazic: it's either the asset didn't get there initially [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: so what I'm saying is there are many things that can go wrong [12:20] Walter Balazic: to the asset server [12:20] Walter Balazic: or... [12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Interesting thought about flotsam cache. I'll note that as a possible source of my missing texture issue. [12:20] Tiffany Sicling: what would cause one day it's fine, the next, white image? [12:20] Walter Balazic: it's not pulling it correctly [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: that is also a possibilty [12:20] Walter Balazic: actually Tiffany, we see that alot, that is precisely why I thought the asset server compression was the cause of this [12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: particularly if there is some issue with the asset service, though I regard it as pfairly unlikely [12:20] Walter Balazic: we thought maybe at that moment in time, it was working on that table, or who knows what [12:21] Richardus Raymaker: thats the same i where thinking [12:21] Walter Balazic: what if while pulling the uuid, the asset server times out? [12:21] Walter Balazic: what would you get in return? [12:21] Master Dubrovna: Networking issues between the asset server and the viewer would cause the same thing? [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: this is why the thing to do is manually dump the asset and investigate it [12:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: are te assets all compressed now? [12:21] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: *the [12:21] Tiffany Sicling: sounds like flotsam c ache is falling over perhaps [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: that would tell you whether the asset was corrupt or not [12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: Could FlotsamCache be a possible vector in this scenario? [12:21] Walter Balazic: good idea Justin [12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: no [12:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: or whether it's got 0 bytes, etc. [12:21]  Andrew Hellershanks: Walter, if a timeout occurs on a retrieveal that should be just a temporary issue. Trying again later, or a relog might make the item appear. [12:21] Arielle Popstar: the asset or the uuid? [12:22] Walter Balazic: that's what I'm thinking too Andrew [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: the prioblem then is actually working out what the asset uuid is [12:22]  Walter Balazic: which would cause the sometimes white, sometimes not [12:22] Walter Balazic: on older assets [12:22] Walter Balazic: but newer ones may fail to get to the server [12:22] Walter Balazic: just like Justin said [12:22] Walter Balazic: so if they never get there [12:22] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: if the texture uuid cannot be found, then we probably send Zero.UUID [12:22] Walter Balazic: then they are forever white [12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: no, we don't [12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: ok [12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: was just a guess [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: but there is a signal that asset could not be found [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: don't guess, for god's sake :) [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's what gets us into these messes [12:23]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: lol [12:23]  Walter Balazic: well right [12:23]  Walter Balazic: :) [12:23] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: ok, what do we send? [12:23] Walter Balazic: we are going to give you several examples and do some testing for you [12:23] Tiffany Sicling: no educated guesses huh. hehe [12:23] Dings Digital: goodbye everyone. success and a good time :) [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: walter: ok, thankyou [12:23]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: bye Dings [12:23]  Walter Balazic: now that we know there is no issue with the asset server because it isn't being compressed right now [12:23]  Arielle Popstar: waves] [12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: walter: then I can give you more pointers on what debug commsands to use [12:23]  Walter Balazic: that'd be good [12:23]  Andrew Hellershanks: One often has to guess at a possible cause of a problem but back that up by proper investigation. [12:23]  Walter Balazic: :) [12:23] Justin Clark-Casey: and we can work from there [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: well yes, one has to have a hypotehsis [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: but just like science, you then have to check that the hypothesis is true [12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: right [12:24] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: ++ [12:24] Hiro Protagonist is Offline [12:24] Jak Daniels: can the same thing happen to other assets like anims for example? [12:24] Master Dubrovna: Justin are the debug commands listed somewhere? [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: depending on what the problem is, yes [12:24] Walter Balazic: you know, not sure about that, we've seen it with Notecards and Textures [12:24] Arielle Popstar: would be nice to have a place to go to learn how to test this sort of stuff [12:24] Walter Balazic: actually some older sounds too [12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: textures are usually worse because of the jpeg encoding/decoding [12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Jak, in theory yes but it depends whether the issue is only affecting textures or not. [12:25] Jak Daniels: mmm... i recently lost my walking anim... now i flot with my AO turned on [12:25] Walter Balazic: I'll tell you what, if you want to test all this stuff, I'll toss a region up just for Mantis testing that everyone can destroy [12:25] Jak Daniels: *float [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: there is a separate bug reported to do with AOs [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: danbanner says he is going to post a mantis [12:25] Jak Daniels: ok tnx [12:25] Marcus Llewellyn: That the tpose thing? [12:25] Walter Balazic: oh good [12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [12:26] Azah Tabor: @ Walter..... thats a dangerous thing to say. lol [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: tpose? wow. Haven't seen t-poses in OS in a very long time. [12:26] Walter Balazic: eh.. it's all good [12:26] Walter Balazic: I let Justin loose on my server and it didn't blow up [12:26]  Walter Balazic: hahahaha [12:26] Arielle Popstar: ;) [12:26]  Tiffany Sicling: lol [12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, that's the most expernsive thing for me to do :) [12:26] Azah Tabor: you forgot the word... 'YET' [12:26] Azah Tabor: lol [12:26] Walter Balazic: he actually fixed .NET 64 bit for me FINALLY [12:26] Walter Balazic: was fighting with that for ages [12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Everything is stable until its proved not to be. :-) [12:27] Azah Tabor: attachment points aint stable [12:27]  Azah Tabor laughs [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: normally, I need co-operation to pin down the issue, I simply don't have time to do the debugging work myself [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's the last reort [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: resort [12:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: there is a known issue(s) with attachments [12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: what is the mantis? [12:27]  Tiffany Magic: YES [12:27]  Arielle Popstar: teach us how to debug then Justin [12:28]  Tiffany Magic: oops... I mean... Yes, there are attachment issues. *smile* [12:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: If only my time were infinite [12:28]  Tiffany Sicling: flight has some issues too [12:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, or you could clone yourself. [12:28]  Master Dubrovna: Are the debug commands listed on the web? [12:28]  Azah Tabor hands Juston a stopped clock.. " there, now time can stand still for you" [12:28] Arielle Popstar: well spend a bit of time teaching and then you gain a whole pile of time [12:28] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: mainly - find a repro that we can see it [12:28]  Snik Snoodle: NPC JustinCC? [12:28] Justin Clark-Casey: Master: all comands are available if you type help at the console [12:28] Master Dubrovna: OK [12:28]  Marcus Llewellyn: We need to find out who to sleep when to get Google;s Summer of Code workin' for us. ;) [12:28] Justin Clark-Casey: but some of those wil be more obscure than others [12:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: only people who I'm confident can apply the lessons [12:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: hey, there is something for the metaversity. How to do debugging for OS [12:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: you have to have a methodical mindset already [12:29]  Hiro Protagonist is Online [12:29]  Arielle Popstar: teach a class rather then individual s [12:29]  Taarna Welles: got to go. Bye peeps [12:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: if there's no mantis for an issue then from my perspective it's unknown [12:29]  Sun Tzu: tc [12:30]  Snik Snoodle: bye taarna [12:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I know. [12:30]  Master Dubrovna thinks maybe too many assumptions were going around. [12:30]  Walter Balazic: Justin, to help you out so we all have better information, I have been talking to a few of the bigger region owners, we'll hold a small sub-meeting prior to these so we can just give you a more cohesive list of issues and the associated mantis [12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: If you don't know the code base or how it works, assumptions are more likely to be wrong. [12:30] Master Dubrovna: Usually are wrong :) [12:30]  Walter Balazic: that way you aren't flooded with a mess, that help you out? [12:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: walter: yes - I need good data [12:31]  Walter Balazic: ok we'll get something rolling in the next week or so [12:31]  Walter Balazic: I'll discuss it with some of the people [12:31]  Hiro Protagonist: those comments are predicated on the assumption that there is anyone who knows everything thats going on, or all of the code [12:31]  Arielle Popstar: how about writing up a debugging wiki? [12:31]  Hiro Protagonist: I dont think that anyone would take that claim seriously [12:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I will write up a page on debugging commands, etc. fairly soon [12:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: the compilcation is this area is also evolving [12:32]  Arielle Popstar: delegate [12:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: I only very recently, for instane, added commands to dump object information to the console [12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Good (and up to date) info on the structure of OS also helps. [12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: okay, arielle - please do all this [12:32] Hiro Protagonist: anytime you have a large user base that you are distributing dev code to as a release, the ride is going to be rocky [12:33] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: well, if you have questions then asking them in the mailing list is one way to get doc written [12:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I just simply do not have the time to do this on spec [12:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Justin. [12:34] Justin Clark-Casey: speaking of which, I need to do [12:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: to go [12:34]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin. you made it longer then planned [12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get some things off my todo list before I can spend more time working on OS issues. [12:34] Marcus Llewellyn: We really appreciate all you *do* do, Justin. Immensely. :) [12:34] logger sewell: tc Justin [12:34]  Master Dubrovna: Thanks Justin [12:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: I do wonder sometimes :) [12:34] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew.. things off the list ? most times its only getting longer.. [12:34] Arielle Popstar: even me though i whine a lot \:) [12:35]  Walter Balazic: thanks Justin [12:35]  Snik Snoodle: bye JCC [12:35]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yes, it keeps growing. I need to at least be able to remove some of the older items. [12:35]  Walter Balazic: I'll get in touch with you with the mantis about the issues [12:35]  Sun Tzu: tc Justin [12:35]  Dirk Mathers: Thank you, Justin. [12:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, bye folks [12:35]  Richardus Raymaker: andrew, here's a scissor. [12:35]  Arielle Popstar: tc and have a good week Justin [12:35]  Andrew Hellershanks: I should get going. I want to do some quick investigation in to the texture issue in my SA [12:35]  Walter Balazic: so where'd Neb roll off to? [12:35]  Richardus Raymaker: take care justin [12:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think Neb got fed up [12:36]  Walter Balazic: ah [12:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: I can't say I blame him [12:36] Arielle Popstar: he esaped :p [12:36] Walter Balazic: very professional [12:36] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net: take care justin [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: and neb isn't the one that is doing the coding [12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: :-) [12:36]  Richardus Raymaker: well, it where almost war here. it feeled like that [12:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: very much like the professional way people have been bringing up issues [12:36]  Walter Balazic: well we did work it out [12:36]  Walter Balazic: didn't we Justin?